Friday, September 08, 2006

The last to know

A bomb exploding near a mosque in the Indian town of Malegaon killed 25, according to the Telegraph

Explosions in the western Indian state of Maharashtra have left dozens of people killed or injured. One of the blasts was at a mosque and another targeted a Muslim graveyard, sparking fears that they are revenge for the Bombay train bombings in July. Muslim extremists with links to Pakistan were widely blamed for the July bombings, which killed 186 people. ...

Indian TV is reporting that at least 25 people have been killed, but police have only confirmed five deaths. More than 100 people are reported to have been injured. The mosque explosion came as Muslims celebrated the festival of Shabe Barat, or the Night of Fortune, when they hold night-long prayers seeking divine blessings, exchange sweets with neighbours and relatives, and set off fireworks. Malegaon has a history of religious violence, and it is understood that police riot squads are being rushed to the area to keep control.

A 2001 report from the People's Union for Civil Liberties describes one clash between Hindus and Muslims in Malegaon as sparked by the US campaign against the Taliban, interestingly enough. The report may or may not be biased, but it illustrates the bad blood between local religious factions quite vividly.


Out of Malegaon's population of 6.5 lakhs, over 70 per cent are Muslims. On October 19, Mr. Nihal Ahmed, a former MLA, had led a morcha to protest the U.S. bombing of Afghanistan. The processionists were arrested, but later released. After the Friday prayers on October 26 afternoon, when people were coming out of the Jama Masjid, a man started distributing pamphlets in Urdu titled "Be Indian, Buy Indian", which called for a boycott of American and British products to protest the bombings. A State Reserve Police constable grabbed a pamphlet, tore it up and assaulted the man and dragged him towards the police van.

More police action followed and no sooner had the Muslim crowd been dispersed when another gathering, apparently consisting of Hindus, appeared on the scene.

The committee said it was reported that no sooner had the crowd been chased out of the Jama Masjid area that a huge group headed by leaders of the Shiv Sena-spawned Jaanta Raja Mitra Mandal arrived and staged a demonstration to protest the damaging of the Navaratri pandal. Soon thereafter, this crowd moved towards the Sangameshwar Masjid, destroying shops in front of it. The numbers swelled as it went along leaving a trail of selective destruction in their path, the report said.

Some time later both sides fell to.

From Friday evening through Saturday to Sunday, Hindu and Muslim mobs went on the rampage burning and looting shops, industrial units, powerlooms and vehicles belonging to the other community. The police opened fire yet again on Friday night in the Azad Nagar area. They claim they were challenged by a stone- throwing mob of Muslims. Two young men were killed. On Sunday, October 28, the police opened fire near the Mira Datar Dargah to disperse a mob, killing two men. All those killed in police firing were Muslims. The police and everyone the team spoke to admitted that most of the property destroyed belonged to Muslims. Apart from those killed in police firing, two persons, a Hindu and a Muslim, were murdered in the riots.

Interestingly enough, Harvard University published a detailed study of the social composition and tensions of Malegaon in 1999. The study highlights the fact that Muslims have been growing as a percentage of population in India relative to other religions both before and after Partition. Malegaon is no exception and this may be contributing to the tension. The Muslims in Malegaon are characterized as "a homogenous population who are mainly engaged in the low-income occupation of weaving. Their housing characteristics, possession of consumer durable and per capital income, all suggest a low level of economic development. Even though literacy levels are relatively high, educational levels are low." The study concludes that "therefore, it is recommended that general socioeconomic developmental programme to uplift the Muslim community should be undertaken." One of the suggestions of the study is that birth-control be encouraged among Muslims in Malegaon. Anyone who thinks the US military is tone deaf has yet to read an NGO report. It is easy to see how the tinderbox of grievances on both sides could be sparked by that single recommendation. The non-Muslims would be threatened by the demographic ascent of the Muslims; while the Muslims would naturally view efforts to encourage birth-control as an attempt to keep their numbers down. Add the attack on the Taliban and the bombing of Mumbai into the brew and look out.


Census

Year

Hindus

Muslims

Tribal

Christian

Sikh

Buddhist

Jain

Parsi

1881

75.09

19.97

2.57

0.71

0.74

0.07

0.49

0.034

0.005

1891

74.24

20.41

3.26

0.77

0.68

0.09

0.51

0.032

0.008

1901

72.87

21.00

2.88

0.98

0.77

0.10

0.47

0.033

0.008

1911

71.68

22.39

3.17

1.21

1.00

0.11

0.41

0.033

0.007

1921

70.73

23.23

2.97

1.47

1.06

0.12

0.39

0.033

0.007

1931

70.67

23.49

2.26

1.77

1.28

0.13

0.37

0.032

0.007

1941

69.46

24.28

2.26

1.91

1.46

0.12

0.37

0.032

0.006

Census

Year

Hindus

Muslims

Christian

Sikh

Buddhist

1951

84.99

9.93

2.30

1.74

0.06

0.45

1961

83.51

10.70

2.44

1.79

0.73

0.46

1971

82.72

11.21

2.60

1.89

0.70

0.47

1981

82.64

11.35

2.43

1.96

0.71

0.48

1991

82.00

12.12

2.34

1.94

0.76

0.40

Commentary

Anyone who thinks that the current world tensions were somehow caused by GWB and a bunch of neocons ignores the longer-term factors at his peril. The tensions between the Islamic and the non-Islamic world are rooted in many things: religion, education, demographics and history, some of which interrelate in obvious ways. For example in Melegaon, religious factors could cause low levels of education, especially in women, which could in turn lead to poverty, which for its part is a reliable precursor to high fertility. Or maybe the arrow of causality goes the other way around with high fertility driving poverty which in turn creates a yearning for an apocalyptic religion. However the sociology may, be it's reasonable to think that the current world crisis predated November 2000 when George W. Bush was elected. The tectonic plates had been shifting for some time. September 11 was simply the date when the ground gave beneath Manhattan.

Now that the Left has committed itself to resolving what Samuel Huntington called the Clash of Civilizations through the simplistic formula of electing a Democrat to the White House and withdrawing from history -- beginning with Iraq -- the factors underlying a world tragedy are safe from discovery for at least another decade. Impoverished Muslims will continue to pour into Europe and incubate themselves in veritable hothouses of resentment. And all over the Third World, from Saharan and Sub-Saharan Africa to the Indian subcontinent; from Central Asia to the Malay Archipelago, men driven to despair by poverty and humiliation will turn to their religion to explain their failure. From the pulpits beneath the minarets the reverend fingers will be raised to the infidel neighbor before being lowered to trace out line after fiery line in the Sacred Koran. But events like the mosque bombing in Malegaon warn that problems which sophisticates find unworthy of address may still provoke Third world indigenes and First World skinheads to the atavistic response of the axe handle, molotov cocktail and high explosive. Those who argue that bringing democracy and prosperity to the Islamic world is a fool's errand should consider the alternative. Theodore Dalrymple illustrates what that alternative is through an incident which happened last month in the heart of Western Europe:

British passengers on a flight from Malaga to Manchester did a little impromptu terrorist profiling recently. Some already on the aircraft got off, while those waiting to get on refused to do so, until the flight crew removed from the plane two apparently South Asian young men who seemed to be talking Arabic. ... Astonishingly, the passengers got their way: the two men had to get off the flight. Presumably, they flew on the next flight, but one can easily imagine their feelings. Unfortunately, it is unlikely that the experience would make them less rather than more receptive to the siren song of extremism. ... Far lesser things have maddened men. Ill-treated, they will blame the passengers for it, not the men who created the atmosphere that prompts such ill-treatment. ...

The Islamists will use the episode to dramatize not the consequences of what they themselves preach but rather the West’s insuperable prejudice against Muslims. The extremists want a polarized world with a fight to the finish ... This was a small twist in the downward spiral toward such a possible apocalypse, for which the pusillanimity of the government and Muslim tolerance of extremism will be as responsible as the extremists themselves.

But in fairness to the extremists, the pusillanimous have a script of their own to which they will stick at all costs. The Boston Globe reports:

Amid pressure from Democrats, Scholastic Corp. yesterday backed off its plans to distribute learning guides to schools in conjunction with a controversial "docudrama" that is set to air on ABC this weekend. The made-for-TV movie, "The Path to 9/11," has prompted howls from Democrats who argue that ABC is engaging in a partisan attack by airing a film that fictionalizes events to portray President Bill Clinton and his top aides failing to take action to eliminate Osama bin Laden during the 1990s. The study guide Scholastic produced and posted on its website for high school students included several politically explosive statements, including a suggestion that former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein had a role in the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. Scholastic issued a statement yesterday saying it was removing the materials from its website. Instead, the children's publishing company said it will produce and distribute a new discussion guide that "will focus more specifically on media literacy, critical thinking, and historical background."

One decade more.

81 Comments:

Blogger Ash said...

Wretchard, I'm curios as to why you immediately close off past thread as soon as a new one is posted. I had composed the below reply while it was possible to post but during that time you disabled comments. Now I stick it here and clutter this thread...

-----------

cedarford, Congress using the purse strings to influence the judiciary is kind of like using a nuke to kill a single terrorist. Why not just amend the constitution?

Exheldrvr, you object to my referencing using torture only on brown people. Well, who is it that qualifies for torture? Everyone, US citizens and all or is there some sort of line to be drawn on who qualify for this 'coercive interrogation treatment'. Do you all really want a totalitarian state where evidence is held in secret and the accused is allowed no knowledge of what the evidence is? Do you want to be convicted by hearsay evidence you cannot challenge, or even be aware of, obtained by coercive means? If someone alleges you took part in a conspiracy to commit war crimes you could be convicted even though you took no concrete steps toward do those actions. You have been accused by someone of a 'thought' crime and you can't challenge it. This is appalling. Is this fantasy on my part? No, this is what Bush wants Congress to enact, and if they do and the courts strike it down, well Cedarford thinks Congress should pull some financial strings. Amerika, the new totalitarian state.

The draft legislation sent to Congress by the White House includes many of the same controversial provisions featured in the commission rules struck down by the Supreme Court two months ago. Chief among them is a rule that would allow a defendant to be barred from parts of his trial dealing with classified evidence. Although he would continue to be represented in court by a military-appointed defense attorney, the lawyer would be ordered not to reveal the content of the classified evidence to his or her client.

Administration officials say the measure is necessary to protect sensitive intelligence sources and methods during the ongoing war on terror. Critics say it undermines defense efforts and raises fair trial questions by excluding the one individual from the courtroom in the best position to effectively confront the evidence against him.

The administration's military commission bill also allows for the introduction of hearsay evidence and evidence obtained through coercive interrogations, though not torture. And it allows prosecutors to file broad conspiracy charges covering alleged agreements to engage in war crimes, rather than requiring prosecutors to overcome the tougher challenge of proving a defendant took concrete steps toward committing specific atrocities.

9/08/2006 08:54:00 AM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

9/08/2006 08:58:00 AM  
Blogger wretchard said...

Ash,

Whether or not Congress approves the draft remains to be seen. If it does then the deed itself will be more significant than the bill. While I don't share your characterization of it as "using a nuke to kill a single terrorist" anytime someone, particularly Congress is willing to do that, then one had better ask why.

This current post really asks: who is out of step? It also asks who is being tortured? And the answer to the second question at least is "brown men" as you put it, largely by other "brown men". The last to know.

9/08/2006 09:08:00 AM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

wretchard wrote:

The made-for-TV movie, "The Path to 9/11," has prompted howls from Democrats who argue that ABC is engaging in a partisan attack by airing a film that fictionalizes events to portray President Bill Clinton and his top aides failing to take action to eliminate Osama bin Laden during the 1990s.

This attempt at censorship is for Hillary and her 2008 run. She remembers the boos and catcalls she got from folks in the near-immediate aftermath of the WTC bombing.

9/08/2006 09:15:00 AM  
Blogger RWE said...

Here is an interesting item, more related to the previous thread.

According to Mosnews.com, Human Rights Watch is critcising the U.S. for having released some Russians from Gitmo in 2004. It seems that after finding we had no need to detain the Russians who had been captured in Afghanistan, they were sent back to Russia where they were allegedly tortured - although apparently they are not presently in Russian custody.

So, we lock'em up and Human Rights Watch does not like it. And we let them go and Human Rights Watch does not like it - says we have to be careful where we send them to.

9/08/2006 09:23:00 AM  
Blogger Annoy Mouse said...

Pakistani’s radicals seem to be fulfilling a world-wide mission at the beck and calling of the Saudi funded madrassas. I hearken back to Wretchard’s guest host who said, essentially that the Jihadi’s were burning their boats upon the shore so that there would no way back, only utter victory or utter defeat. When such a conflict fully evolves a state like India, 800 some odd humans, it will be interesting and potentially brutal.

9/08/2006 09:31:00 AM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

Ash, if posters like you who don't know the meaning of the word "terse" didn't take up so much space with your wordiness, maybe comments wouldn't have to be closed.

9/08/2006 09:34:00 AM  
Blogger exhelodrvr said...

Ash,
So you are the one advocating torture as acceptable as long as it is a minority? Interesting.
I advocate torture as appropriate regardless of the skin color or ethnicity, if the potential payoff is worth the cost to the torturers and the potential long-term cost in the public relations aspects of this war.

9/08/2006 09:47:00 AM  
Blogger stumbley said...

Ash, when the dire consequences you describe start happening to AMERICAN CITIZENS, who have NOT been SEIZED ON A BATTLEFIELD, fighting AGAINST our forces, then I might start to be concerned. As it is, your defense of the "rights" of terrorists seems terribly misplaced.

9/08/2006 09:49:00 AM  
Blogger exhelodrvr said...

There is going to be a lot more backlash against Muslims worldwide if they don't stop their tacit support of the "radical element." (Quotes to indicate that I'm unsure if it is really radical, per se, or just the violent aspect of the mainstream.)

9/08/2006 10:01:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Ash, please be more consistent; don't strum the race string and then close with "Amerika, the new totalitarian state".

You should include the theme-word "racist"--as in "Amerika, the *racist* totalitarian state" (dropping the word "new", as it is inconsistent with our long history of totalitarian racism).

Wondering, will you be attending the Khatami speaking events this weekend?

9/08/2006 10:03:00 AM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

wretchard quoted Dalrymple:

"The Islamists will use the episode to dramatize not the consequences of what they themselves preach but rather the West’s insuperable prejudice against Muslims. The extremists want a polarized world with a fight to the finish ..."

Ironically, the ones who oppose the extremists also want a polarized world. When the suggestion is made that both sides have barbaric scriptures or resort to torture or the slaughter of civilians, thus making the whole mess a gray goo, this is called being "too PC"

9/08/2006 10:12:00 AM  
Blogger Mark White said...

Extremism doesn't come from poverty. It comes from Wahabbis and Qomites, who are spreading their poison through the Islamic world because they have oil riches that pay the freight. Take away the oil money from Riyadh and Teheran, and the fiery imams will no longer have any appeal, since they won't be paying the bills.

As JR Dunn pointed out recently in The American Thinker, a lot of the oil money that supports Hezbollah comes from offshore production. The US Navy could redirect those oil funds from madrassas to secular schools and hospitals without breaking a sweat, even if the Marines don't immediately turn funding for Iran's nukes into roads and ports. To the extent Saudia oil comes from offshore, the Navy could easily do the same to madrassas teaching Wahabbi jihad.

In war, you go for the enemy's center of gravity. For both Shia and Sunni strains of Islamism, that is oil money. With it they've got global influence. Without it, they'd be lucky to keep their local followers.

That's not to say you'd end the riots in India. But the riots in India wouldn't lead to worries in the West about terror attacks here like they do now.

9/08/2006 10:16:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

It might be gray goo if either side could halt hostilities without a cultural capitulation (but only the jihad side 'can').

It might be gray goo if neither side was an aggressor (but the jihad 'is').

9/08/2006 10:27:00 AM  
Blogger The Mad Fiddler said...

Buddy, shall I do an internet search on "gray goo" or just speculate?

Normally your comments are crystal clear in their meaning...

9/08/2006 10:33:00 AM  
Blogger Ilia Capitolina said...

Teresita writes : ..both sides have barbaric scriptures or resort to torture or the slaughter of civilians, thus making the whole mess a gray goo,..


It's a gay goo only if someone believes that "there is no such thing as an evil worldview, only evil actions."

9/08/2006 10:34:00 AM  
Blogger Annoy Mouse said...

The gray goo is the color and texture of the in cranial contents that seems to get smeared around when bullets fly and bombs go off. The question is who's gray goo gets spread around and how many innocents foriegn and domestic get pulled into the inevitable downward spiral of violence. Chemo-therapy is a dangerous concoction that kills the foreign invader through sucessive applications or until it kills it's host. That it be applied with some discretion is a topic of heated debate.

9/08/2006 10:39:00 AM  
Blogger vogz said...

For what it's worth (probably not much more than trivia), I believe Maharashtra is the Indian state in which the infamous Dahbol power plant (probably Enron's most prominent international failed venture) is located.

9/08/2006 10:45:00 AM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

ilia capitolina wrote:

It's a gay goo only if someone believes that "there is no such thing as an evil worldview, only evil actions."

That concept is something I learned on Belmont Club itself recently, when I pointed out that there were a number of instances in the Hebrew bible where the death penalty is mandated for homosexuals or for adultery. I was told in no uncertain terms (and with a variety of personal attacks to boot) that the Hebrew bible could not be considered an evil ideology because today we do not put those death penalties into practice.

9/08/2006 10:52:00 AM  
Blogger Aristides said...

The Soviet Union thought open and unapologetic belligerence was the way to go, and through its intransigence forced the entire industrialized world to collectivize against it. No small feat, that. Even an ideological ally like China was eventually pried away because of the Kremlin's imperial hubris. The world united behind the simple concept of containing the Russians. And the Empire fell.

The mutualist feedback dynamic between Islamic extremism and Islamophobia (for lack of a better term) is leading us to an equally polarized world. It seems inevitable now: the non-Muslim world will unite behind the simple concept of resisting Islam, and Islam will unite behind the simple concept of being resisted.

No matter how you cut it, this is going to end badly for Islam.

9/08/2006 10:55:00 AM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

ash - cedarford, Congress using the purse strings to influence the judiciary is kind of like using a nuke to kill a single terrorist. Why not just amend the constitution?

I also agree with Ash that closing off a thread automatically when a new one is started, Wretchard, may lead to more off-topic posts chasing an old thread.

Ash, you know as well as I do that the Amendment process is effectively paralyzed now. No way will we get 2/3rds of the House and Senate and 3/4ths of the States to agree on any substantial issue in these days of polarization. On top of that, we have a new force of lawyers and Senators that have begun to see the Founders in near-religious adulation and the Constitution Holy Writ. Which has led to a considerable accumulation of irrelevances and archaic clauses in the Constitution and Federal judges nowadays holding their personal Amendment process to create new Constitution on top of the original one. It isn't just the big issues that defy Amendment by ensuring that some group of 20% support or so opposes it - it is minor stuff like believing SCOTUS improperly stole power from the States on a minor issue NOT being worth the trouble and expense to fix by the incredibly daunting and cumbersome Amendment process.

Given that, the Supreme Court and Federal judges have an undue position of primacy over the States and other Two Branches. And Congress does have the recourse of power of pursestrings to show general unhappiness and calling it a "nuke" to kill a policy, or a too big blunderbuss ignores that it is frequently used against the other supposedly co-equal branch, the Executive. The Exec still has the power to pack the Court...it just hasn't been considered necessary in recent times as the SCOTUS got the message from FDR's threat and ceased being a Republican bastion trying to undo his New Deal [The "Switch in time that saved 9,"]

The damage to America is becoming clearer...we see lawyers intruding and presuming to take control and have final word over all economic functions and matters of society best left to the voters and the democratic process - and the price we pay is now taking decades vs. years or months to fix. We built the core of the Fed Interstates in 7 years 50 years ago. The Empire State Building went from concept to finished skyscraper in 1 year 4 months. We now have highways tied up for 20 years in environmental lawsuits. The Pit in NYC awaits a 3rd and 4th round of lawsuits to be resolved before any building happens.

We know that a nuke set off without warning in DC would destroy continuity of government and likely put us under military rule for 6-9 months, but the Amendment process to fix that by resolving Presidential succession and seating a temporary House quorum w/o is rejected as "too much to stomach" and "sure to be opposed by enough of a minority to block it".

9/08/2006 11:08:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Considering that common practices invariably answer a felt practical need, then ancient tribes living perpetually on the unpredictable edge of extinction, without layers of security within which to absorb individual challenges to the community standard, probably saw evil far less metaphorically/abstractly than we do now.

9/08/2006 11:11:00 AM  
Blogger Robert Schwartz said...

If I read the charts correctly, since 1951 the Hindu population had increased from 9.93 to 12.12 and the muslims from 2.30 to 2.30.

But your text says: "The study highlights the fact that Muslims have been growing as a percentage of population in India relative to other religions both before and after Partition. Malegaon is no exception and this may be contributing to the tension."

Am I reading this wrong or was there a mistake?

9/08/2006 11:11:00 AM  
Blogger Reocon said...

From today's Washington Post:

Body Count in Baghdad Nearly Triples
Morgue's Revised Toll for August Undermines Claims by Leaders of Steep Drop in Violence

By Ellen Knickmeyer
Washington Post Foreign Service
Friday, September 8, 2006; Page A12

BAGHDAD, Sept. 7 -- Baghdad's morgue almost tripled its count for violent deaths in Iraq's capital during August from 550 to 1,536, authorities said Thursday, appearing to erase most of what U.S. generals and Iraqi leaders had touted as evidence of progress in a major security operation to restore order in the capital.

9/08/2006 11:14:00 AM  
Blogger Reocon said...

Pardon, here's the link:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/07/AR2006090700768.html

"By late August, Maj. Gen. William Caldwell was claiming a 46 percent decrease in the murder rate in Baghdad for that month. "We are actually seeing progress," Caldwell said at the time. A U.S. military Web site on Thursday continued to assert a roughly 50 percent drop in killings in Baghdad.

A U.S. military spokesman in Baghdad, Lt. Col. Barry Johnson, said Thursday that the U.S. figures were based on the military's "consolidated reporting with the Iraqi government." Johnson also disclosed that the military's numbers included only "individuals targeted as a result of sectarian-related violence, to include executions," and did not include "other violent acts such as car bombs and mortars."

Johnson said he did not track the morgue's figures and could not account for the substantial gap between the military's count for August killings and the latest figures from Baghdad's morgue."

Oh Ho! So Lt. Col. Johnson forgot to include "car bombs and mortars"? Sloppy. Should we blame the MSM for last month's false optimism?

9/08/2006 11:19:00 AM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

I should say something on topic - the Subcontinent has had a millenium of experience with Muslim violence. It appears that after the Hindu Holocaust (50-60 million dead by Muslim butchery since AD 850 according to some Hindi claims) - that with the Hindis ascendent - an uneasy peace is now maintained by tit for tat practices. And a separation of communities with clear lines and rules laid out on what will provoke violence or counterviolence.

*****************
Teresita still has problems understanding the lack of moral equivalency between Judeo-Christianity and Islam.

It's a gay goo only if someone believes that "there is no such thing as an evil worldview, only evil actions."

That concept is something I learned on Belmont Club itself recently, when I pointed out that there were a number of instances in the Hebrew bible where the death penalty is mandated for homosexuals or for adultery. I was told in no uncertain terms (and with a variety of personal attacks to boot) that the Hebrew bible could not be considered an evil ideology because today we do not put those death penalties into practice.


Five things distinguish Christianity from Islam and redeem the former, as not the threat Islam is, in the modern world:

1. Christianity was recognized from the beginning as being more allegorical than literal. Even the Fundamentalists abjured from following every tenet of the Old Testament as impractical and not in keeping with matters the New Testament overrode. The Islamic fundamentalists believe in literally following every word of the Qu'ran and Hadiths - and those fundies are NOT a small minority.

2. From the earlist days, even in Christ's "rendering onto Caesar those things that are Caesar's" Christianity existed in conjuction with secular powers and spheres of interest. In Islam, there is no line in the Caliphate. All matters temporal and spiritual from the individual through the family to the State all obey Islam above all other things,

3. Christianity never taught the concept of the enemy other - the people outside the faith that must be killed or conquered and subjugated as 2nd class creatures. In Islam, the other exists, and much of the Qu'ran and Hadiths - believed by all Muslims to be infallible, mandate behaviors and attitudes towards the enemy "other".

4. Islam never had an Enlightenment and Reformation period that tried to bring Islam into modern times. It still follows 1200 year old guidances based on being a desert tribe needing close control over all matters of life and guidance on how to advance the tribe through war and conquest. Christianity has evolved constantly. Evolved so much, some think, that it has evolved into irrelevance by trying to be all things to all people.

5. Islam as the "roach motel" you check in, but you can never leave. This bears on free will. Christianity accepts free will, has always had an element that rejected certain teachings or became practicing skeptics or atheists in their latter years, with some social approbation, but not hunted down and killed. In Islam, apostates that leave Islam or reject any of it's laws as rejection of faith ARE hunted down and killed. Free will is not to coexist with submission to Allah.

Now from the perspective of Islam, it is not an evil world view. From the perspective of those it seeks to assimilate, conquer, and subjugate, how could it be considered anything less than an evil worldview that seeks their destruction?

One small matter reinforces my belief that Islam is a massive problem without a significant "moderate element". That involves the Muslims in many Western nations who have been there 3-10 generations. In all those countries, Muslim males are encouraged to pursue and have infidel women as sexual conquests, even marry them to convert them and have their kids so less infidels are created. But it is forbidden in all those countries, even by "moderate" Muslim head of households, to ever let a Muslim woman date or marry an infidel. The cases of Muslim women braving severe repercussions inluding death as apostates to date or marry outside their faith are exceedingly rare. And Islamists in Sweden, France have also killed infidels that date their women. And even in America, other than in getting into infidel panties, true friendships between Muslims and others is not routine. This suggests that coexistence with an assumption of Muslim superiority so widely held - even by moderate Muslims - is not likely.

9/08/2006 11:54:00 AM  
Blogger Ilia Capitolina said...

Teresita,

The Hebew Bible is an ancient brew of religio-philosophic poetry. It was also an open historical record by the Jewish people, for the Jewish people, of the Jewish people. If you're not Jewish, I can't see how to you it would be of any concern. That's one.

Number two. As the history of the Jewish people evolved, so has their religio-philosophic outlook. The fact there hasn't been any Jewish homosexual put to death in the last 2,000 years (if ever), and that homosexuals openly parade in gay pride parades in Israel, should tell you where philosophically things stand.

9/08/2006 12:00:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Teresita still has problems understanding the lack of moral equivalency between Judeo-Christianity and Islam.

Five things distinguish Christianity from Islam and redeem the former, as not the threat Islam is, in the modern world:

---
See C-4 post above for 5 distinguishing characteristics.
---
Religion is as Religion DOES.

9/08/2006 12:00:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Religion is as Religion DOES

The Peace of Augsburg, in 1555, ended the first wave of religious wars in the Holy Roman Empire, and gave us "cuis regio, eius religio", (whose region, their religion).

(ht, a discussion @ the corner)

9/08/2006 12:19:00 PM  
Blogger 2164th said...

qlmogi agree with Doug, but have to run to da plane. Feel free to fill in for me doug, if you think i would agree.
Do a couple 2164th would have saids:

teresita: feel free to misquote me while I am not present.

9/08/2006 12:26:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

a strange thing about gray goo: while its advance must always be repelled, its defense can never be worth sacrifice. Hence it has no defenders, thus it must be something other than a philosophy. Perhaps a process?

9/08/2006 12:35:00 PM  
Blogger Ilia Capitolina said...

gay goo is indeed a process

9/08/2006 12:40:00 PM  
Blogger Annoy Mouse said...

Wretchard,
Like your new photo by the way. You seem a lot less imposing than your prose.

9/08/2006 12:50:00 PM  
Blogger allen said...

The cultural problems Wretchard references are often exacerbated by those souls among us who either have never mastered an academic discipline, with entailed intellectual integrity, or purposefully manipulate and mangle information with the intent of creating supposed clever mischief.

For instance, there are those who posit that the Torah is an evil ideology because of the harshness of some mitzvot and, therefore, the Torah is comparable to the Koran. Well, no, it is not. As it turns out, the Torah is applicable only to Jews, as even a cursory reading would prove. That being the case, even if the Torah were to be applied literally to every living Jew today, only 0.25% of the world’s population would be affected. This is to say, 99.75% of the earth's inhabitants would continue on their merry way, unmolested.

The Koran, on the other hand, is understood by Muslims to be the law under which 100% of the world’s people will ultimately be governed. The Koran is universal. Unnumbered millions of Muslims take the Koran literally and, indeed, it serves as the basis of all law throughout the Islamic world, comprising some 1.2 billion adherents. Even the so called secularist Turkey is moving inexorably toward Sharia. It goes without saying that the much of the world is harassed by Muslims.

To illustratively juxtapose the Torah and Koran, consider:

___Nothing within Torah ordered or now orders Jews to rule the world by force of arms. The Koran does so order Muslims.

___Nothing within Torah ordered or now orders Jews to convert all unbelievers. The Koran does so order Muslims.

___Nothing within Torah ordered or now orders Jews to kill or enslave all those resistant to conversion. The Koran does so order Muslims.

Facts are troublesome things, which frequently deflate ignorant agendas, as well as crass egos.

9/08/2006 01:04:00 PM  
Blogger Annoy Mouse said...

By temperament I consistently fall into the category of those who believe “kill them all, let god sort them out”. But as there is a separation of powers in government there is in my own mind, the faculty to know that this does not mesh well with political reality. There is an inherent duality that exists in all of our minds and it is the crux of eternal argument across the corpus collosium divide.

9/08/2006 01:22:00 PM  
Blogger Ilia Capitolina said...

Allen,

It should also be said that the laws are constricted to time, place, and object. Thus it can be successfully argued, that since the time place and object are no longer existent, neither should the laws. :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitzvah

9/08/2006 01:26:00 PM  
Blogger Annoy Mouse said...

The West is the beneficiary of a global industrial economic system that has become the “glass house” built upon the supply of oil producing states. Though we might expect these oil producing states to behave financially responsible in the global economic forum the Islamic mind forbids rational actions. Breaking things and killing people is much more ethically complicated when you have your own interests at stake.

9/08/2006 01:44:00 PM  
Blogger whit said...

So, if there is no law, there is no transgression?

We are all free to do whatever and however we please without penalty?

9/08/2006 01:45:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Nice to see Allen & C4 on the same side of an argument. Nice, really nice. No sarcasm or foolery intended. I been to a state fair, a rodeo, and a Sunday picnic, and never seen the like of it.

9/08/2006 01:49:00 PM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

doug said:

Religion is as Religion DOES.

That's what I tried to say before I got smacked down as being a "dope" for not believing there are evil ideologies like Islam even in the absense of expressed evil deeds by most Muslims. Maybe when the Belmont Club settles on a final platform I can try to fit in better.

9/08/2006 01:50:00 PM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

First ilia capitolina says:

It's a gay goo only if someone believes that "there is no such thing as an evil worldview, only evil actions."

Next ilia says:

The fact there hasn't been any Jewish homosexual put to death in the last 2,000 years (if ever), and that homosexuals openly parade in gay pride parades in Israel, should tell you where philosophically things stand.

So ilia, which one is the operative statement? Islam is an evil worldview even in the absence of barbaric deeds by 90% of Muslims, or Judaism is not an evil worldview due to the absence of barbaric deeds in the last 2,000 years? What am I missing here?

9/08/2006 01:55:00 PM  
Blogger Annoy Mouse said...

Was struck by it too Buddy.

Will wonders never cease?

9/08/2006 01:57:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Allen & C4's most recent posts, for starters, Tess.

9/08/2006 01:57:00 PM  
Blogger allen said...

buddy larsen; 01:49:57 PM

re: Ode to Joy

Don't get too comfortable; the day is young.
;-}

9/08/2006 02:03:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

LOL--but still one tiny straw in the wind for ole Mohammad to consider--

9/08/2006 02:11:00 PM  
Blogger Ilia Capitolina said...

Teresita,

What's there not to understand?

The Jews of 3,500 years ago are not the Jews of 2,500 years ago are not the Jews of 1,500 years ago are not the Jews of 500 years ago are not the Jews of today. And neither is "Judaism". The children of Israel have evolved while still retaining their core identity as the children of Israel.

On the other hand, Islam has been a stillbirth from day one. And if 1,400 years is anything to go by, Islam will remain a bloody lifeless abortion till its stench finally forces us to bury it six feet underground.

9/08/2006 02:18:00 PM  
Blogger enscout said...

buddy:
Would that be the Minnesota State Fair?

By far the best in the world.

9/08/2006 02:19:00 PM  
Blogger Ilia Capitolina said...

whit,
You think God will care?

9/08/2006 02:25:00 PM  
Blogger slimslowslider said...

Question for Cedarford:

“the enemy within has disproportionate numbers of a particular ethnicity” I didn’t know that the “destructive Jewish Left” was an “ethnicity”.

“considering religious Jews not aligned with post-communist subversion of America's institutions and culture a welcome asset to our country.” Are you pro Israel or you would you be if religious Jews were the entire population?
I hope you are pro American though.

Are you suggesting David Horowitz is “Neo-Communist”? Or are you saying he is an agent of the devil? Seems like you are leaning towards the latter:
The devil’s “2nd greatest feat was in convincing the ones who knew that it was hurtful and impermissible to openly discuss their anti-Devil bias." & your
“One-World government led by an enlightened elite”. This last phrase is often used reference “the stage on which the Antichrist will build his one-world government” are you possibly talking about “Illuminism” or the “Jewish Banker Conspiracy”? If not the wording is quite a coincidence.

Ps. I’m just Belmonting you.

9/08/2006 02:27:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Enscout, I'll betcha it is at that--MN being the home of Paul Bunyon and his blue ox Babe--
but, Dallas/Fote Wuth has a helluva one, too--

ilia--you had another, almost equally awe-ful question on the previous thread--you mus' be a Rabbi, wit dese chin-rubbin head-scratchers--
;)

9/08/2006 02:38:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

Elelphant bar open ..free drinks

9/08/2006 02:41:00 PM  
Blogger allen said...

ilia capitolina; 01:26:30 PM

As with all things Jewish, opinions vary. For nearly eighteen hundred years some rabbis have said, “Yes”; some rabbis have said, “No”; and some rabbis have said, “Maybe, so.” Certainly, some number of Jews must agree with your point of view, after all Israel is a secular state, albeit, influenced for better or worse by a growing fundamentalist minority.

For me, I am not prepared to go as far as you; indeed, within the context of basic Judaism, I must struggle daily to perfect myself and the world. To that end I, find the Rambam’s “Thirteen Articles” instructive. For the same inspiration as that of the Rambam, I go to the prophetic hymn of the simple Jewish woman, Hannah; I Samuel 2:1-10. Beyond that, I must rely upon the rabbinic authority of my place of residence, and if I disagree, like any "good" Jew, I will quit listening.

Addressing Wretchard’s lede, as Israel becomes more “Orthodox” through indigenous demographic growth and immigration out of the EU over the next generation, the struggles with the Palestinians et al will become more religious, more intractable, and more draconian. Wise men will see the future as a race to foreclose a religious war. Frankly, I am very pessimistic.

One thing not understood by non-Jews, apparently, is that lawyers have been ever with us. The Law demanded the establishment of courts of judgment, with impaneled judges and advocates. Contrary to some accounts, appeals were possible and common. While dramatic and of propaganda value, people were not dragged kicking and screaming out of the city and summarily stoned. Moreover, no capital punishment was possible absent the sworn testimony of multiple witnesses to a particular event. Capital punishment was made purposefully, extremely difficult to obtain for the prosecution. Additionally, mutilation was forbidden for any crime.

Just saying.




“whit,

You think God will care?”

Someone has!

Sorry to interfere, but you seem too good a soul to let go.

9/08/2006 02:43:00 PM  
Blogger geoffgo said...

Terisita said:

Islam is an evil worldview even in the absence of barbaric deeds by 90% of Muslims, or Judaism is not an evil worldview due to the absence of barbaric deeds in the last 2,000 years?

How about a "homeview?" It's that 10% (120,000,000) we need to worry about. And, each 1% who support the doers of barbaric deeds means another 12,000,000 to worry about.

Even profiling won't help me to distinguish the guilty from the innocent among the 6-7 million we have here at home; ten percent of whom might be nasty Islamofascists (600,000-700,000).

How many will the latest AQ fatwa stir to action?

9/08/2006 02:52:00 PM  
Blogger Ilia Capitolina said...

Re: Rabbi, wit dese chin-rubbin head-scratchers

You know that's the pickled herring talking. :D

9/08/2006 02:56:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

ah, yes...the pickled herrrring....

9/08/2006 03:13:00 PM  
Blogger Annoy Mouse said...

Am I hearing pickles?

9/08/2006 03:25:00 PM  
Blogger Ilia Capitolina said...

Allen,

The etymological root for mitzvah is tzvah. Tz'va'h in Hebrew means: 1) army or 2) command or 3) unite

A mitzvah that does not marshal an army, that does not unify, that does not command, is no mitzvah.

9/08/2006 03:57:00 PM  
Blogger allen said...

ilia capitolina;

re: G-d has striven

To strive, an army under a united command presupposes a commander.

9/08/2006 04:15:00 PM  
Blogger whit said...

Ilia asked: 2:25

"Will God care?"

Enough to send his very best!

9/08/2006 04:33:00 PM  
Blogger Ilia Capitolina said...

His very best what? His very best magicians? His very best killers? His very best condolences?

9/08/2006 04:41:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

OT..OT..DR,Buddy,Rufus, do you think if we attack Iran the F-22 will fly CAP? ...at the Bar.

9/08/2006 04:42:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

this place is a pinnacle of ecumenical

9/08/2006 04:46:00 PM  
Blogger Ilia Capitolina said...

Buddy,

Doug's palace for economical pineapple?

9/08/2006 04:53:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Doug's Drive-In Coco Nut Cabana?

9/08/2006 04:56:00 PM  
Blogger trangbang68 said...

Did I miss something here in its subtlity?How did "gray goo' which could translate into brain matter,primordial ooze or any number of other things morph into "gay goo" which calls to mind images I for one don't wish to visualize.
Cedarford,interesting 5 reasons why Christianity and Islam aren't on the same moral page.I'm a simple man,but I look for empirical evidence like a Baptist church lady squad taking out school buses and pizza parlors.Haven't found one yet.
Seriously,you want a stark contrast of the two faiths pick up a copy of "Voice of the Martyrs" magazine.It shows third world Christians courageously clinging to their faith even as like sheep they are slaughtered by the practitioners of the religion of peace.

9/08/2006 04:59:00 PM  
Blogger Ilia Capitolina said...

no cuban drive-by left nut jacking, i hope

9/08/2006 05:02:00 PM  
Blogger Bob Smith said...

Chris Matthews interviewed a panel of four last week including Lawrence Wright, author of The Looming Tower, Dan Rather, Andrea Mitchell, and a British reporter whose name I did not catch (but made great contributions to the dialogue, as did Dan Rather.) One of the central theses of the book is that the Taliban were defeated in Afghanistan and Al Qu’eda were in disarray. The invasion of Iraq provided a ‘seed’ that rejuvenated the motivation of near-defeated Jihadists to fight on.

A timely and innately political contribution. To make matters more opaque, the demands of domestic politics are intersecting with the need to understand what is outside the gates. My first response was - and the long term picture outside of the Afghani Taliban was what?

Or in Wretchard’s words : Anyone who thinks that the current world tensions were somehow caused by GWB and a bunch of neocons ignores the longer-term factors at his peril. The tensions between the Islamic and the non-Islamic world are rooted in many things: religion, education, demographics and history…

And…

"The Path to 9/11," has prompted howls from Democrats who argue that ABC is engaging in a partisan attack by airing a film that fictionalizes events to portray President Bill Clinton and his top aides failing to take action to eliminate Osama bin Laden during the 1990s…

A ‘smart’ response by the Dem/Left.

9/08/2006 05:26:00 PM  
Blogger Ash said...

allen wrote:

"after all Israel is a secular state"

Is it? I'm not trying to be facetious but isn't much of the debate within Israel about maintaining is status a jewish state? Is there not land ownership restrictions upon non-jewish inhabitants? How does this qualify as being a 'secular state'? What does it mean to be a 'secular state'?

9/08/2006 06:55:00 PM  
Blogger What is "Occupation" said...

Ash said...
allen wrote:

"after all Israel is a secular state"

Is it? I'm not trying to be facetious but isn't much of the debate within Israel about maintaining is status a jewish state? Is there not land ownership restrictions upon non-jewish inhabitants? How does this qualify as being a 'secular state'? What does it mean to be a 'secular state'?

well ash that pissy jewish state just passed laws demanding that charities set up for the purchase of land by the diaspora for jews cannot exclude moslems and christians..

some jewish state, all those jews in america donating thier cash to help thier fellow jews in israel are now forced to have a percentage of the monies given to the arab population of israel

9/08/2006 08:16:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

Ahh yes the old BC smackdown.
Some eyegouging,razor cuts,nutcases running with scissors,a few,a few cogent points.
Good to see the place in fine order.
Over at the Bar we throw our peanut shells on the floor ..it's almost like BikeWeek at Daytona here.

9/08/2006 09:21:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

New format suggestion.

Divide the sceen into thirds vertically.
In column 1 you have pro Iraeli commenters.
In column 2 you have pro Iranian/terrorist comments.
In column 3 you have the confused, the uncommitted, new recipes, etc.

You could shade the backgrounds in pastels , peach, apricot, tangerine etc.
Posters would be allowed access to all three columns..hey a Jew or Arab might have a great recipe.

9/08/2006 09:31:00 PM  
Blogger allen said...

ilia capitolina,

re: legacy media

Sorry, I lost you on another thread.

Your point was well taken, although it did not contemplate the necessity of the concurrent demise of the political elite that is its Siamese twin.

What in the world is a Cuban drive-by? As to the remainder of your comment to buddy, that will be left, for the moment to ugly conjecture. :-)

9/08/2006 10:07:00 PM  
Blogger allen said...

Wretchard,

re: The Carnival of the Animals

Whenever I think myself a relentless SOB, you come around and put me to shame. Nevertheless, torture has its place. Hmmm... Ms. Greer? No, she too will pass.

Crikey, Love you, man!

9/09/2006 12:57:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...

While totally, completely, inexcusably off-topic, some things just have to be said:

Yes, dear friends, where there is will there is a way. While American’s warriors fight to bring life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness to the unwashed, America’s civilians are doing their part.

Businesses maneuver to buck smoking bans
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060908/ap_on_re_us/smoker_havens

Sex toys contain dangerous chemicals says Greenpeace
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060908/od_afp/netherlandsenvironment_060908185927

Indeed, as Mama Gov works to protect us, some of her unruly children say, “F*** Off, Bitch.”

Remind me, where are the Taliban, again?

9/09/2006 01:40:00 AM  
Blogger Bob Smith said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

9/09/2006 02:32:00 AM  
Blogger Bob Smith said...

A ‘smart’ response by the Dem/Left.

IOW, The Dem/Left are still playing politics with an issue that should at this point transcend the ideological divide, but it has not yet.

Just as point of clarification.

But I would like to see more equilibrium in the dialogue.

Just as a point of obfuscation.

Can I have my own column?

9/09/2006 03:02:00 AM  
Blogger Ilia Capitolina said...

Allen,

It’s a species often found in the Miami asphalt everglades, among other palaces. I just wanted to verify that the species hasn’t made its La Raza migration to Larsen’s back yard in Texas, since Doug has developed severe allergies to that Zaraza, err,.. I mean La Raza species.

9/09/2006 07:32:00 AM  
Blogger 3Case said...

From a later post where no comment is possible"

"Blinded by fanaticism, resistant to pain, possessed of limitless endurance and patience they are supermen at war." (empasis added)

How do you know that? They hide all the time. When they do come out, they do so at night in order to plant remote control explosives. When they make the mistake of coming out in the open, they are slaughtered like the sheep they are.

Explain to me their reason for hiding and it's military superiority. Win by hiding...what a concept! In 500-700 years, after the new Dark Ages that Sharia will usher in, historians will write that the West was defeated by people who engaged in sustained military-grade hiding.

9/09/2006 07:56:00 AM  
Blogger 3Case said...

BTW, I have beieved since the beginning that ObL and his Eygptian munchkin homicidal maniac buddy are hidin' in a palace ib the Kingdom...better access to al Jazeera's producers and FedEx service.

9/09/2006 08:01:00 AM  
Blogger Ilia Capitolina said...

3Case writes: Explain to me their reason for hiding and it's military superiority.

Because it allows our Jihadi TV and our Jihadi Press the numbing illusion that these Jihadi fighters are not a proxy army for their Jihadi society, which provides them the manpower, shelter, ideology, money, intelligence, weapons, and emotional support. It is a numbing illusion that is continually propagated by our Jihadi legacy media though Orwellian duckspeak, deliberate distortions, outright lies, whitewash and cover-ups. It is an illusion designed and subsidized by the enemy so as to make it a crimethink to name the enemy, a crimethink to call for the complete and unreserved destruction of the enemy.

9/09/2006 10:47:00 AM  
Blogger Griswel said...

Comments off permanently? Or is something being done now and they'll be back on later?

9/11/2006 09:04:00 AM  

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