Friday, September 01, 2006

Ouch, ouch, ouch!

Andrew Bolt of the Australian Sun Herald asks a weapons expert (hat tip: Tim Blair), "if Israel has any missile that would pop a neat hole in the roof of an ambulance and explode, causing no scorch marks, no shrapnel damage and no fatalities to the people inside. He checked his findings with army experts and writes: "There is no weapon that would deliver terminal effects consistent with the pictures, the alleged story and the reputed damage done to ambulance and people."

Here was the reply: (more follows)

He checked his findings with army experts and writes (and apologies that the links did not get through) :

There is no weapon that would deliver terminal effects consistent with the pictures, the alleged story and the reputed damage done to ambulance and people.

Here are some hard facts easily locatable on the internet via which is an invaluable open source free intelligence site.

The Israeli Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV or “drone") index is here. As you can see Israel fields 10 UAV types. Of the ones with technical specifications only the Harpy deploys a weapon payload. However as it is designed to support suppression of enemy air defence it would deploy a radar seeking missile capable of destroying a hardened air defence radar station. Clearly a Harpy wasn’t deployed.

A weapon deploying UAV would be one of the remaining three without technical specifications. Let’s assume it is similar to the US Predator an armed UAV. Here are its specifications and some photos. As you can see from the front page it deploys a Hellfire missile. Here are the hellfire missile specs and some photos. The missile itself is 64 inches or about 1.5m long, weighs around 100lb and has an explosive payload of around 35 lbs.

Clearly something like that slamming through a vehicle is going to destroy it even if it doesn’t go off, after all the missile is designed to kill a 70 tonne tank, so a half ton unarmoured ambulance doesn’t stand a chance.

Now if it didn’t explode there is a 1.5m long 35lb undetonated warhead stuck in the road somewhere near Qana. No doubt Martin Chulov can go and get a photo of it. Of course it is possible that Israel has no anti armoured missile armed UAV as well. I would love to know what Tony Jones’ source is for the Israelis using such a weapon system so that the data can be checked thoroughly.

Israel has two air to surface missiles. The hellfire is not listed so I assume the NT family is the Israeli equivalent. The Gabriel is an anti shipping missile and the NT family are anti armoured missiles. Unfortunately it has no real detailed specs listed and one non photographic image. You can see from its range of over 4km (from link page) that it needs to carry fuel and have a large propulsion and guidance unit, so it is probably smaller than the hellfire (less range) but the deliver system is likely to be at least 1m long.

Once again as it is designed to destroy tanks it would have a significant warhead that would obliterate a lite van ambulance. If it didn’t detonate it would go right through the floor and would be stuck in the road somewhere posing a significant danger to people in the area. Perhaps Martin Chulov could confirm with the UN Mine Action Centre in UNIFIL if they have any reports of unexploded missiles stuck in the road near Qana. Because if any of these weapons went off the vehicle would be incinerated.

Ofcourse there are no lesser warhead missiles listed for Israel, nor any I know of for the US. Who would field a $2 million missile only to equip it with a $200 war head that couldn’t even stop a van? It defies logic that this is the case and pursuing this line, as Tony Jones did on “Lateline”, is not so much a case of hope triumphing over common sense or experience, it is absolute idiocy. And no doubt Tony Jones has previously called “Military Intelligence” an Oxymoron!

Now going through this has taken me my lunch break. Of course twenty years military experience is more difficult to replicate but should the “Australian” or the ABC have really wanted to check the accuracy of its claims it could have gone to a military consulting company and got some independent bomb damage assessment from someone who knows what they are looking at. No doubt a number of people working in Aerospace in Australia, its associated media or companies like Boeing would have been able to provide a more reasonable verification of the story. But no, Martin Chulov goes and asks the guy who lied to him in the first place if he lied. The answer was a definite “no” with some modifications to the original version of events. Sounds a bit like “Justice” Einfeld!

At a minimum the Editor of the Australian owes Alexander Downer and the Australian public a full, fulsome and prominent editorial apology!


Blogger gdude said...

Awfully long post, Wretch, for a pic of a removed rotating beacon from the top of the ambulance (see the uniformly clean edges all around. Not to mention the rust from old shrapnel holes surrounding it.)

So, how many people REALLY died in Lebanon?

9/02/2006 02:05:00 AM  
Blogger ledger said...

Ouch is right.

Your post - plus many others - have debunked the notion that a "missile blasted directly through the top of an International Red Cross Ambulance" (notice I said International Red Cross - not to be confused with the US Red Cross).

It's clear that no missile blasted through the top of an International Red Cross vehicle. The evidence is very self-evident.

But, happened to this particular vehicle?

The rust indicates the "missile damage" is fake (it was reported that an Insurance Adjuster would not even touch this case because of preexisting damage).

Others have stated that the vehicle seems to have been pulled out of a junk yard.

The damage to the top including the dents (and the circular air vent that was scraped off)indicate that another vehicle was stack on top of it at some point in said junk yard. The "red-cross" vehicle was then removed from the junk yard and redecorated with fresh gurneys.

To repeat, I do believe that said International Red Cross" was NOT hit with any military weapon. The MSM faked the story.

I don't know exactly how said vehicle came to be dented-up (including the removed roof vent).

Now, I do believe that certain so called "journalist" know exactly how this was done and when it was done.

Sadly, because certain news agencies have been exposed has fabricators of the truth, the players in this ruse will not willing dare tell how said vehicle was actually damaged and who exactly damaged it.

9/02/2006 05:35:00 AM  
Blogger luc said...

The incredible thing about this is that no matter how obviously visible a fake of the claimed missile attack this picture is, many people believe that the attack occured. And its success is demonstrated by the fact that the "reputable" news agency Reuters published photos of its own armored vehicle hit by an Israeli "missile" in Gaza afew days latter. The Reuters vehicle is just as decrepit and rusted as the Lebanese ambulance.
It goes to show without a doubt that the fake Reuters pictures from Lebanon, which eventually Reuters deleted from its site, were not an accident but part of a concerted Reuters propaganda campaign!!

9/02/2006 06:01:00 AM  
Blogger whit said...

It is time for the world to accept that the other side is playing by a different set of rules. Possibly holdovers from the days when a reporter knew whose side he was on and didn't pretend to simply present the news. Al-Jazeera, al-Reuters, AP stringers, and westerners gone native such as Yvonne Ridley see themselves as involved players, not detached "professionals practicing their craft." For their side, the matter is existential for our side, it's more about ratings and dollars.

9/02/2006 09:03:00 AM  
Blogger Starling David Hunter said...

the weapons expert said: "Now going through this has taken me my lunch break."

Well I found the post very informative and appreciate the sacrifice he made. I'll gladly buy him lunch should our paths ever cross.

9/02/2006 11:52:00 AM  
Blogger VRWconspiracy said...

The circular clean part (bare metal) of the sheet metal roof appears to have been modified to act as a flange for mounting some device. It certainly was not manufactured by a missile strike.

9/02/2006 01:32:00 PM  
Blogger Mike H. said...

Zombie has a rather devastating analysis of the report.

9/02/2006 08:41:00 PM  
Blogger Karridine said...

The Bigger Picture: We among the Trying-Hard-NOT-to-Be-Useful-Idiots segment of the Western World, are learning the depth, quality and extent of the lies, dissembling, mendacity, obfuscation and propaganda being generated by the Jordyptian-Hezbollah thugs actively engaged in terrorist actions in the Israeli-general-area...

AND how much their enabler/agenda-driven MainStream Media are carrying the thugs messages to a wider audience, AS IF IT WERE ACTUALLY ACCURATE or NEWS!


9/04/2006 07:13:00 AM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...


9/05/2006 04:27:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

Ambulance holes are really not an unusual event.
Ernest Hemminway wrote of his Spanish American War experience as an ambulance driver that after returning from areas where bullets nad bombs were going off and exploding the ambulance might have several holes in it.
This normally was the function of force equals mass times acceleration whereby the mass of the bullet or bomb would be of such a nature as to cause holes in the ambulance.
Ambulances in general however are not considered to be targets but rather vehicles to take wounded back to a doctor or corpsman for aid. This works for both sides as it uses up resources to keep the combatants alive and thus uses up more of the ememies resources that would normally go to putting holes not in ambulances but inot men or other vehicles but not ambulances.
In fact following the war the Ambulance Safety Society lobbied for better protection for ambulances and thus ambulances would hopefully have fewer holes in them. Once ASS got the ball rolling others saw the wisdom in allowing ambulance passage egress from the battlefield. This APE approach worked well until ambulances were still hurt.

9/05/2006 04:40:00 PM  

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