Tuesday, September 05, 2006

Chester at the 5th Defense Forum

Chester sends a dispatch from the 5th Defense Forum in Washington, where he is a participant. One of the keynote speakers was the Vice Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Admiral Edmund Giambastiani who made a point which was coincidentally raised in the last post, New Lamps for Old. Giambastiani also believes that in the "Long War" in which we find ourselves (aka the War on Terror), every element of national power must be brought to bear. “We are engaged in an 'all-hands fight,' and that it requires “friends, allies, and a focus on those who would destroy our way of life.”  "All-hands" as in all hands on deck, that is, the fight requires everything we have. (The immediate problem with that is that a large part of Western society has recused itself from the fight. "All hands" in their context means "youse guys".) Chester went on to quote Giambastiani as saying:

“Developing the right human capital to fighting the Long War is essential,” he argued, and included cultural skills, a diplomatic knack, and changes in career patterns as key points of this effort. “A central challenge to winning this long war is how we invest in our human capital.”


I am trying, without much success, to imagine how creating such human capital is separable from engaging the Third World in general and the Muslim world in particular in its fullest sense. If Giambastiani's remark means anything it must imply acquiring a practical knowledge in fighting the enemy when necessary, befriending the Islamic world where possible and engaging in a intellectual dialogue at every opportunity: in a word, it means engagement in exactly the opposite of the word as it is used today, where "engagement" has been perverted to mean diplomatic appeasement, bribery and concession.

When Tigerhawk asks "What will the 9/11 Generation Accomplish? in a post some weeks back, he was actually  making Giambastiani's point in the interrogative.

So what will be the impact of the generation that has come of age during the last five years? More than 300,000 young Americans have served in Afghanistan and Iraq, and many of them will come home and eventually enter careers in government, journalism, business, academia and politics. There are many more Americans who did not fight in those wars, who know virtually nobody who has, and who know what they think they know from abstract media -- press accounts, books, photographs and fauxtographs, and blogs of the right and left. What effect will these two groups have when they become the leaders of our government, economy and culture? If you answer in the comments -- and I very much hope you do -- consider particularly the likely impact of this generation on American foreign policy. What will these returning veterans teach us about the Arab and Muslim world, and how will the cohort that stayed at home react to that instruction?

In other words, where does this human capital -- this 9/11 generation -- with it's hard-won knowledge go from here? About all it is safe to say is that it will go someplace different from those whose watchword was "let the UN do it". Returning to Chester's dispatch, it was surprising to see Giambastiani ask the same questions propounded in New Lamps for Old:

“How can we assist the State Department, who normally deals with security assistance and foreign aid, how can we help them with projects that are more than just what USAID does?” He then recounted that “there was a fight on the hill with various congressmen and Senators as to who controls the money [involved in these aid efforts].” Moreover, he stated that “Many government agencies don’t have an expeditionary culture like the military,” but “in the long term, we’ve got the State Department leaning toward longer tours with more senior personnel.

Whether that is an Imperial or 4th Generation Warfare question is an interesting one to debate.

279 Comments:

Blogger Woman Catholic said...

wretchard wrote:

"All-hands" as in all hands on deck, that is, the fight requires everything we have. (The immediate problem with that is that a large part of Western society has recused itself from the fight.

This can be laid at the door of the leadership. Tax cuts sent the message that we would fight the War on Terror with troops and bullets that we had already banked and early opinion pieces to the effect that this would be the new "Greatest Generation" proved to be premature.

In other words, where does this human capital -- this 9/11 generation -- with it's hard-won knowledge go from here?

Bloodied but wiser, this generation will say no more Iraqs where all the fighting is done by massive US and UK forces in a classic invasion followed by nationbuilding. They will veer closer to the Afghanistan model, where indigenous rebels provide the bulk of the infantry while special forces and air (manned and unmanned) multiply that infantry's firepower and only technical expertise and reconstruction money follow in the aftermath.

9/05/2006 06:00:00 PM  
Blogger 2164th said...

"What effect will these two groups have when they become the leaders of our government, economy and culture?"

The last similar war where we can look for answers to this question is Viet Nam. If that is a guide and it is, then I have a few predictions:

1. Anyone,especially if they served in the military during the early part of Viet Nam, say from 1963 forward also served with men who fought in Korea and WWII. These veterans were conservative, cautious and sceptical.
2. They were impressed and disgusted with the incredible waste of men and resources by the military.
3. They were sceptical, critical and unimpressed with most if not all politicians. They developed a very keen nose for the whiff of BS.
4. Most real veterans valued the extra effort to keep the peace, but understood you do not fight wars in half measures. If men are asked to sacrifice what can be their all, they expect to use every means necessary to destroy the enemy. Anything short of that is a sellout.
5. Men who serve in combat understand the ambivalence and fragility to life and death. it is a lesson never forgotten.
6. Those who served will become resentful of those that talk the talk but never took the stroll when they had the opportunity to do so.
7. If they come out alive and unscathed, they will over time, realize it was a life experience that made them better men.

9/05/2006 06:00:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Turns out that our suspicions about Powell's motives at state have been confirmed.
Proof of his perfidy being that he and Armitage remained mute while Libby and the Administration twisted in the wind for two years.
Unfortunately, he fit right in at state, as plenty of others share similar sympathies.
Better than the UN, but that's not saying much.
---
Mitt Romney is not going to provide security for the Terrormaster to come to Harvard, and Kudlow thinks we should kick out the terror promoting Imams.
That's the kind of decisiveness that sends a clear message.

9/05/2006 06:02:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

It's them damn tax cuts Bud!
We can't stand the prosperity and increased revenues much longer.
Tax and spend, I say!

9/05/2006 06:03:00 PM  
Blogger Ilia Capitolina said...

It was well known that AQ is Pakistan’s baby. What was not known was whether OBL was a Pakistani agent. It seems to me, Pakistan has now all but admitted to having brought down the WTC. Given what's already known of their involvement in Iraq's, Iran's, Libya's, Egypt's nuclear projects, if I were POTUS today there would be no Pakistan.

9/05/2006 06:04:00 PM  
Blogger luc said...

Wretchard,
Excellent post and scary at the same time because of the first answers that came to mind in response to your question regarding the interaction between those who fought and “know” and those who got a free ride at home and “think they know”. Blame it circumstances or technology which allows a situation to develop where the ones that “know” are a small minority to which a large group of maybe sincere but delusional never-the-less is opposed.

Now comes the scary part: we live in a democracy where the majority rules and history teaches that all great nations were not defeated from outside but defeated themselves from within. I hope I will be more cheerful tomorrow…

9/05/2006 06:11:00 PM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

occam whisker said:

It was well known that AQ is Pakistan’s baby. What was not known was whether OBL was a Pakistani agent. It seems to me, Pakistan has now all but admitted to having brought down the WTC. Given what's already known of their involvement in Iraq's, Iran's, Libya's, Egypt's nuclear projects, if I were POTUS today there would be no Pakistan.

On the afternoon of 9/11 the news carried the sound of explosions in Kabul which I thought was a little Navy and Air Force shock and awe (silly me, it takes months to get UN approval for those things!). Nowadays if I heard explosions on the radio I wouldn't think Tomahawks and B2's at all. The first thing that would cross my mind was that it was a Dan Rather Special Katrina Anniversary Investigation of Karl Rove detonating the plastique he and Bush secretly planted in the levies in New Orleans. That's how far our deterrent power has fallen between Gulf 1 and today.

9/05/2006 06:15:00 PM  
Blogger Meme chose said...

As a society, Israel is probably a canary rather further towards the coal face than we are. Perhaps we should look at them and see our future.

As far as I can tell, while the younger generation there participate more widely and more seriously in the defense of their country (they do have conscription), and Israeli military skills and effectiveness appear to be far more widely respected than they are here, they still do not seem to be short of moonbat leftists, lifelong 'peace activists' and fanatical Cindy Sheehan types. Olmert was indeed just such a 'peace activist' until very recently, so they are not just out on the streets banging pots either.

We of course had our own bitter defeatists during the Civil War, who thought they were smarter and more entitled to make important decisions than the average American; one of them went so far as to assassinate Abraham Lincoln.

It adds up to the prospect that we will never be rid of these people, that they will likely be carping and Monday morning quarterbacking all the way through the fight until we eventually win (or lose, cf. Vietnam), and will then attempt to rewrite history as they always do to make it seem that they were the people who were right all along.

Yes, it's a movie we've seen before.

9/05/2006 06:23:00 PM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

luc said:

Now comes the scary part: we live in a democracy where the majority rules and history teaches that all great nations were not defeated from outside but defeated themselves from within.

If a majority in a democracy sours on a war, but the war continues to be prosecuted, then it is not the majority who defeated that democracy but the leaders they chose. That being said, every year Congress votes to continue funding OIF so apparently we aren't anywhere near the point of throwing in the towel despite the polls. Maybe the poll on November 7 will make things more clear.

9/05/2006 06:24:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Well I guess Mr Snow would know, but really, who is spinning now?

"...MR. SNOW: No, I'm doing it to you because the second part was factually tendentious, okay? Now, when you were talking about the fact that it failed to adapt, that's just flat wrong. And you will be -- there has been -- there have been repeated attempts to try to adapt to military realities, to diplomatic realities, to development of new weapons and tools on the part of al Qaeda, including the very creative use of the Internet. So the idea that somehow we're staying the course is just wrong. It is absolutely wrong. ..."

It's all a matter of the meaning of "is", isn't it.

Editor & Publisher is usually quote worthy.

9/05/2006 06:32:00 PM  
Blogger Chris said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

9/05/2006 06:38:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

But the "Headline" is that Mr Snow pointed his finger at the reporter, NBC's David Gregory.

Mr Whisker,
That is why, sir that your prediction as to the future use of 10,000 "Western" nukes vis a vie the other Mohammedans, is off base.

Pakistan exists, and continues to.

9/05/2006 06:39:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

re teresita's post, the next supplemental funding vote by Congress will be in March 2007, and that is the point where the November election will express itself.

9/05/2006 06:40:00 PM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

doug said:

It's them damn tax cuts Bud! We can't stand the prosperity and increased revenues much longer.

Doug, while you sit there crowing over your stock portfolio the operational tempo is so high most of the army's equipment is rattling and about ready to fall apart. Sailors are supposed to spend the time between WestPacs in their home port doing maintenance, not turning around and going straight back to the Gulf. Congress was sold a military that could do one and a half major conflicts. If North Korea crossed the DMZ with everything they had right now would we be able to do much about it? No, because some of our troops are on their fourth deployment already, they are digging deep into the Army Reserve, and our C-17s flying out of McChord AFB are full of play equipment so Iraqi kids can play midnight basketball. When you go to war you have to throw everything you got into it, and that means raising taxes, even if that sounds like blasphemy. At least, that's how Wilson, Roosevelt, Truman, Johnson and Bush 41 felt about it.

9/05/2006 06:42:00 PM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

So it would appear that the US military and (at this point) parts of our government have decided that it is up to the American taxpayer to enable them to insert themselves into these failed countries and to civilize and educate the failures, whether they want it or not.

What ever happened to allowing the doo-doo bird and the dinosaur to die off by themselves because they couldn't keep up with how the rest of the world had evolved? More recently, whatever happened to the happy experiment that in taking people off of welfare and forcing them to work everyone involved discovered they *could* do it for themselves?

I have absolutely no problem with the concept of war and demolishing these failed societies. And then if they can get it together, a la Germany and Japan, they can rebuild themselves.

I have a great deal of trouble, however, with the concept of going in as missionaries and introducing truth, justice and the American way at the end of a gun barrel. I just don't think it's gonna work - that enforced civilizing of a 14th century culture based upon barbarism and murder.

And it seems like an ENORMOUS waste of perfectly good tax dollars and young people's lives to attempt it.

Did we vote on this? There's a huge difference between re-electing Dubya to prosecute the war on terror and to enable him to kill terrorists, and in bringing a chicken in every pot, a car in every garage, and indoor toilets and air conditioning to all the backwards haters of the world just because they've been so annoying that we can't ignore them any more.

Is that *really* good parenting skills? Isn't this more of a Jimmy Carter attempted solution than a Harry S. Truman practical one?

9/05/2006 06:46:00 PM  
Blogger Chris said...

"Bloodied but wiser, this generation will say no more Iraqs where all the fighting is done by massive US and UK forces in a classic invasion followed by nationbuilding."

I have recently returned from Iraq wiser, but thankfully no bloodier. I can't speak for my whole generation, but I say for myself, "no more 'followed by nation building.'" Massive invasions followed by parades down Mainstreet. The lesson I have learned from Iraq: We should destroy our enemy's means and will to fight--complete and total. After victory we return home. If the destroyed enemy nation in time becomes a threat once more, another massive strike.
Every country has the government it deserves. If They want Sharia, I don't care. Just don't threated me or mine.

Out!

9/05/2006 06:46:00 PM  
Blogger 2164th said...

Doug,
Check out what the skank on the flank is up to:

http://fem-net.blogspot.com/

you are already cut and pasted and I am taken out of contect on what is being posted as Belmont Club 2.

9/05/2006 06:50:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

Wretchard,
Thank you for a new question to explore.
What will the 9/11 generation teach us about the Arab and Muslim world and how will the cohort that stayed home react to that instruction?
My first thoughts are almost entirely identical to what 2164 has already posted.
It will be very hard to put lipstick on this pig for the same reasons we lost Vietnam. Will to stay the course as an ally and a nation.
We didn't win WWII. Hitler lost it by attempting a two front war. We tried to stay out. The bomb ended the fighting but the victory was the Battle of Britain and the horrible Eastern front.
In Vietnam we were constrained by politicians from using our might, as they had done in Korea.
In the first Gulf War we used massive bombing and a hundred hour ground war that saved Kuwait but taught us nothing.
Now this war. We don't bomb this (Haiphong Harbor, don't cross the Yalu River in hot pursuit) in the form of mosques where we knew they were basing ops from.
Shock and Awe was Madison Avenue at war. We never level a city where we should have levelled many.

What not only the 9-11 generation will learn is what the Vietnam generation learned, which is what the Korean generation learned. Our politicians in their timidity and opprobrium will not allow a military victory in a unconditional surrender manner, NO MATTER WHAT.
** What will they have learned from the Arab and Muslim world?
My guess is that these first 300,000 will learn they were lied to, because after all the Commander in Chief said Islam was a "peaceful religion". A lie in wartime is a treasonable act. They will learn as the three previous generations did that our government lies and uses young mens lives to cover the lie.
*** Department of State
More timid than the Presidency and the Congress.
**Summation
Another generation will pass to their brothers and sisters that the United States, for whatever reason, cannot be trusted to back you up on the battlefield where life and death is decided and therefore the social compact binding this nation together will continue it's disgraceful unravelling.

9/05/2006 06:52:00 PM  
Blogger 2164th said...

Thanks chris.

9/05/2006 06:53:00 PM  
Blogger 2164th said...

This little psycho teresita is taking everyone's comments, editing them and then typing in her comments as if we all commented on her site:

http://fem-net.blogspot.com/

9/05/2006 07:00:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Thanks, from me, too, Chris. It gets more and more difficult for the rocking chair geezers to know what you kids doing the fighting need out of the home front.

9/05/2006 07:02:00 PM  
Blogger Chris said...

Buddy,

You can help by voting Republican.

9/05/2006 07:05:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

G-d bless ya, Chris.

9/05/2006 07:07:00 PM  
Blogger Ilia Capitolina said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

9/05/2006 07:07:00 PM  
Blogger dont_overthink_it said...

Been reading this blog for over a year. First post. In my opinion wars are fought in multiple dimensions only when the military dimension is not powerful enough. In our case, not only is the military powerful enough, it is by far the most powerful dimension we have.

By opting to consider multiple dimensions we are signalling weaknesses that do not exist only to create what could become a set of self-fulfilling prophecies.

What is the goal?

This is not an enemy that can be befriended, or won over by reason, or be convinced of the merits of live-and-let-live.

Carter, with his curriculum of cowardice masquerading as "love", showed us that we reap as we sow.

It is time the enemy, with his curriculum of hatred, realized the full truth of that adage.

9/05/2006 07:08:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

Chris,
You did what you could. You stood with the men of Valley Forge,Gettysburg,WWI & II, Korea & Vietnam,and Operation Desert Storm.
All the best to a peaceful and rewarding life.
Habu

9/05/2006 07:10:00 PM  
Blogger allen said...

Wretchard wrote: “I am trying, without much success, to imagine how creating such human capital is separable from engaging the Third World in general and the Muslim world in particular in its fullest sense.”

DR wrote:” [T]here have been repeated attempts to try to adapt to military realities, to diplomatic realities, to development of new weapons and tools on the part of al Qaeda.” – Tony Snow

“In 1964, Justice Potter Stewart tried to explain "hard-core" pornography, or what is obscene, by saying, "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced . . . [b]ut I know it when I see it . . .”
http://library.findlaw.com/
2003/May/15/132747.html

The administration’s understanding of the vaunted Master Strategic Plan for Victory is probably best reflected by Mr. Justice Stewart’s understanding of perversion.

9/05/2006 07:10:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Between Nahncee at 06:46:43 PM, and Cris, back from Iraq at 06:46:43 PM, that about covers things, from at home and abroad.
At least by my reckoning.
And thank you for your service, Chris.
---
Seems like the rank and file rabble is pretty much agreed that the Hug a Muzzie Plan leaves much to be desired, and removes too much from our national treasury.

9/05/2006 07:21:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

2164th,
She is disingenuous, insincere, inconsistent, and dishonest.
All in all, worthy of ignoring.

9/05/2006 07:23:00 PM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

dont-overthing-it said:

By opting to consider multiple dimensions we are signalling weaknesses that do not exist only to create what could become a set of self-fulfilling prophecies.

Outstanding first post, sir. I too lurked for a year before jumping in.

The US military is omnipotent when it comes to taking out missile sites, fuel dumps, tanks, planes, ships, and any infantry who is still alive to stand in the way across the battle front. The US military is challenged when it comes to urban warfare where anything goes, such as the second battle of Fallujia. The US military is evenly matched when it comes to urban warfare where we have to follow a rigid set of Rules of Engagement while the enemy follows none. The US military is completely in over its head when it comes to 1) making a former minority ethnicity which has been stripped of all power like us; 2) making a rising majority ethnicity which wants to come into full power like us; and 3) making a third ethnicity which was enouraged to rise up and then betrayed by no follow through like us.

9/05/2006 07:24:00 PM  
Blogger 2164th said...

Remember some of her posts about the dishonesty of the media?

9/05/2006 07:25:00 PM  
Blogger Charles said...

I have a blog out now on water desalination. In this post I advocate that the Federal labs should make it their goal to drop the cost of water desalination by a factor of 10 within ten years--thereby making it economically possible to turn the world's deserts green and double the size of the habitable planet.

This article gives a pretty good idea of where desalination research is right now.

9/05/2006 07:29:00 PM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

2164th wrote:

This little psycho teresita is taking everyone's comments, editing them and then typing in her comments as if we all commented on her site

Alternative theory: I am pasting my own comments from Belmont Club to my own blog to be archived. I resent the accusation that I am editing everyone's comments, that makes me sound dishonest. To use Hugh Hewitt's words, 2164th, "That's crazy talk!"

9/05/2006 07:29:00 PM  
Blogger Ilia Capitolina said...

[corrected repost]

Meme chose writes: As a society, Israel is probably a canary rather further towards the coal face than we are.

Indeed.



desert rat,

To expand on Meme chose canary in a coalmine analogy:

In Israel where the military budget is always very tight, they want to skin Gen Halutz alive. The IDF expended over 140,000 artillery shells and expensive precision bombs in effort that barely managed to kill 500 Hezbollah fighters. To a large and growing number of Israeli critics this is an insane amount of both military and economic waste.

The US wasted a trillion dollars on the Iraq war. Yes, Pakistan and other Jihadistans still exist. But for how much longer are we to allow this?

9/05/2006 07:29:00 PM  
Blogger Kinuachdrach said...

I would add my 2 cents to NahnCee & Chris -- the lesson this generation *ought* to learn is to forget the historically-unusual WWII ideas of rebuilding defeated adversaries. Instead, the Anti-Powell doctrine -- we break it, you fix it; you fix it wrong, and we break it again.

However, what people *do* learn can be very differenct from what they *ought* to learn. Look at the Vietnam generation -- who would have guessed that the first President who grew up in that era would be a draft-dodger and rabid anti-militarist who would then bury his younger beliefs to make himself electable? Or that the first Presidential candidate who actually went to Vietnam would be an obvious phony who finagled his way out in a couple of months, publicly accused those who served of being rapists & murderers, and then was idolized by the media as a hero who had seen combat?

When the Iraq generation is in its forties & fifties and in charge, it will be about 2030. The Ponzi scheme of Social Security will be collapsing, global oil production will be declining, global population will still be increasing, and Europe will be a disaster zone. What lessons from Iraq will be useful in that world?

9/05/2006 07:31:00 PM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

doug

She is disingenuous, insincere, inconsistent, and dishonest. All in all, worthy of ignoring.

Would you, Doug? Please? That's pretty much what my procedure is when someone resorts to a personal attack on me.

9/05/2006 07:32:00 PM  
Blogger Boghie said...

Wretchard is telling us that we are starting to build a cadre of Gaius Marius Veterans. Starting to build a cadre of young imperialists in the English model.

I don't know...

And, I don't know if I hope so...

9/05/2006 07:33:00 PM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

charles wrote:

I advocate that the Federal labs should make it their goal to drop the cost of water desalination by a factor of 10 within ten years--thereby making it economically possible to turn the world's deserts green and double the size of the habitable planet.

This is exactly the sort of Big Science thing only a government would be able to do (like a supercollider or a fusion power plant), for the simple reason that there is no monetary incentive for making more arable land for more people. It's economically neutral.

9/05/2006 07:37:00 PM  
Blogger Boghie said...

Imagine a few of these returning soldiers finding employment in the media...

I thought the embedded media would affect the lib media - but very little happened.

The other thing Wretchard is telling us is that this is a long struggle - and it will not end when the 'troops are brought home' or when the 'last' IED is blown. It will continue till our culture overcomes theirs - or theirs overcomes ours.

There will not be a detente...

One side will win.

One side will lose.

9/05/2006 07:42:00 PM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

kinuachdrach said:

When the Iraq generation is in its forties & fifties and in charge, it will be about 2030. The Ponzi scheme of Social Security will be collapsing, global oil production will be declining, global population will still be increasing, and Europe will be a disaster zone. What lessons from Iraq will be useful in that world?

1) That the old model of shuffling money from working people who earn it to retired people who spend it should have been eased out in favor of Bush's investment-oriented model, but the failure of Iraq ate up all his political capital to do that.

2) That the old model of projecting US power to protect easy oil should have been eased out in favor of an inpenetrable multi-layer missile defense (rockets, lasers) with the savings plowed into a crash "Manhattan Project" for getting us off of reliance on foreign oil.

3) That the current United Nations which includes dictatorships sitting on human rights commissions should have been eased out in favor of a Union of Free Nations...a sort of permanent Coalition of the Willing.

9/05/2006 07:46:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

WHAT THEY WILL ALSO LEARN

This generation of fighting men and women will learn that those who stayed behind,went to college and took big city jobs thought of them as "suckers" and low class.
Working in the brokerage business when this started, at the end of my career, I would here those very comments.
New graduates from upper middle class and upper class families fully expected to drive BMW's and make 100k their first year. Many did. The suckers were the guys going off to fight.
We have a system in place that is more stratified today than ever. CEO's salaries are in the stratosphere. Go-fers from the right schools make 200K.
If we are to develop a mutual trust and reknit the social fabric we cannot continue to have a "professional" army of volunteers.
Every abled bodied man and woman should be required to do some form of service. To wear a unifrom. To stand at attention and say yes sir and no sir.
I mentioned in a post previously what Smedley Butler, a U.S.Marine two time Medal of Honor winner said after his 33 years in the Corps. it is worth repeating:

"I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902–1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested." That was his lesson on the social fabric.

9/05/2006 07:46:00 PM  
Blogger Charles said...

Boghie said...
Wretchard is telling us that we are starting to build a cadre of Gaius Marius Veterans. Starting to build a cadre of young imperialists in the English model.

I don't know...

And, I don't know if I hope so...
/////////////
Its not a stretch for Wretchard to say this. Its always been this way. This generation's warriors are the next generation's leaders.

9/05/2006 07:46:00 PM  
Blogger enscout said...

Iraq has been a cascading set of failures since Dubya proclaimed victory.

Allowing Iraqis to write their own constitution was the most agregious error IMO.

Once again the leadership vacuum here is having negatives abroad & will not be forgotten by those serving there.

My hope is that young men like Chris don't get jaded about what has happened and step up to fill the void. They (the veterens of OIF) are the best qualified to become the leaders of tomorrow that have the will and understanding to defeat enemies that would destroy the liberties of future generations of Americans.

Thanks Chris. Please don't stop serving.

9/05/2006 07:47:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Occam at 07:29:57 PM,
Well said.
Sometimes I wonder if the Pie in the Sky Theoreticians think money grows on trees, to quote my dearly departed mother.

9/05/2006 07:48:00 PM  
Blogger raymondshaw said...

It's economically neutral.

Desert property owners will find their land more saleable. Plus, many, many companies are currently in the water purification business, it is already big business. The market would only grow.

9/05/2006 07:49:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

GE is working on new process equipment that will as Charles said take 90% of the cost out of desalinization. Don't know if this will ever green the Sahara or not, tho, unless natives start insisting on a good portion of pan-arabian oil revenue goes into it.

9/05/2006 07:51:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

Desalinization plants are not the topic..

"Soldier, what did you learn in Iraq that you'll pas along to your contemporaries"?

"Sir,that we need more desalinization plants, sir"

9/05/2006 07:56:00 PM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

buddy larsen said:

GE is working on new process equipment that will as Charles said take 90% of the cost out of desalinization. Don't know if this will ever green the Sahara or not, tho, unless natives start insisting on a good portion of pan-arabian oil revenue goes into it.

One good thing about cheap desalinization: It will make Al Gore shut the hell up about CO2. The green stuff in the Sahara will eat that like candy.

9/05/2006 07:59:00 PM  
Blogger charlotte said...

Re the fem-net blog: What was excerpted from my comment here at BC and put on that site makes it look as if I said the complete opposite of what I believe. Am not happy about that.

9/05/2006 08:01:00 PM  
Blogger 2164th said...

Thank you Catherine. Mine was even more twisted. It is a sleazy site and I do not want to be associated with it in any fashion. The way she did it will result in a positive hit on Google.

9/05/2006 08:04:00 PM  
Blogger PossumTater said...

'ah,miztah habu sah,
ain't yo commenting 'bout desalinization plants mo than a bits hyocrtical..i mean you done start dat fool
" I'll take nuts fo $200" shit..

so why don't you juz shut the f*ck up..ah mista habu suh.

9/05/2006 08:04:00 PM  
Blogger Charles said...

Boghie said...
Imagine a few of these returning soldiers finding employment in the media...

I thought the embedded media would affect the lib media - but very little happened.

The other thing Wretchard is telling us is that this is a long struggle - and it will not end when the 'troops are brought home' or when the 'last' IED is blown. It will continue till our culture overcomes theirs - or theirs overcomes ours.

There will not be a detente...

One side will win.

One side will lose.

9/05/2006 07:42:38 PM
/////////////////
imho the europeans will one day decide they would rather reproduce than import foreigners to pay for their old age--because unlike Americans the Euopeans have been on that land since the stone age..They'd be loathe to give it up. However, in order to reproduce they have to give up culture of death and return to christianity. Because only true religion provides the courage for child rearing. Christianity in turn will return the Europeans historical memory and they will realize they've got an ancient enemy -- the moslems -- in their midst. Subsequently, they will kick out the moslems.

I think that cheap water desalination technology will be in place so as to make large parts of north africa suitable for the Eurabians when they are driven out of Europe. What's more the new lands will need a trained work force which the Eurabians will provide.

Its important for americans of all stripes to ensure that those Eurabians do return to the moslem lands from which they came.(and not the USA because they would have only one desire in this country -- and that is to murder the USA.

9/05/2006 08:04:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

LOL, habu--you're right, desal plants are not the issue.

9/05/2006 08:10:00 PM  
Blogger Boghie said...

Charles,

The Romans ceded land in conquerored territory (or dominated territory) to their returning veterans for two reasons: to pacify and provide for their veterans, and to pacify and civilize their defeated foes. These veterans spread the Roman culture. The Roman culture subsumed the barbarian cultures.

In the Roman era we would be talking about land grants. In the American era we might be talking about business relationships. Many who come back from conflict see opportunity in the region. If (or when) it is a bit more pacified some will go back. It is already happening.

This is a new form of Pax Americana soft power. We are relearning pre-Vietnam era lessons. We are learning how to win the long war for civilization. It might be our turn and our duty.

Me thinks that is what Wretchard is talking about.

9/05/2006 08:14:00 PM  
Blogger Jamie Irons said...

Chris,

Thanks for your service.

Best of luck to you, whatever you decide to do.

Jamie Irons

9/05/2006 08:16:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

THE HUMAN CAPITAL NEEDS

In a country that values the tattos of twenty year old "stars", stays glued to cell phones, can't do one push up and is the most obese in history that all adds up to no self decipline.
With no discipline you get a Caligula running the country,not a Marcus Aurelius.

9/05/2006 08:17:00 PM  
Blogger Boghie said...

Habu,

Desalination is the topic.

When Buddy Larson talks about such economic and social activity he is talking about cultural change. That is the long war.

The short war - the one fought to give us time - is the guns part. There will be a need for guns for some time. But, the winning matrix is not keyed on gun fights - it is keyed on incorporating the ME into civilization - ie. closing the gap.

9/05/2006 08:19:00 PM  
Blogger rufus said...

Charles, that was a wonderful article on Desalinization, Thanks.

We're getting closer than I thought.

9/05/2006 08:20:00 PM  
Blogger Jamie Irons said...

Charles,


Because only true religion provides the courage for child rearing...

Having raised four boys, and having tried two religions, I'm not sure there is a religion true enough to impart the courage needed for child rearing.

;-)

But I haven't tried them all.

Jamie Irons

9/05/2006 08:21:00 PM  
Blogger rufus said...

And, Chris, thank you very much for your service.

We're all very proud of the extraordinary job you guys/gals did/are doig over there under incredibly difficult conditions.

We bitch and moan a lot back here, but the Nation is Extremely Grateful for the Job you've done.

9/05/2006 08:25:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

glad i insulted her early and often,even though i got weak kneed and apologized which i rescended.
so far i'm not on her site...
and that damn otitus media is giving her problems again...I think Wretchard should bar her access.

9/05/2006 08:29:00 PM  
Blogger whit said...

Admiral Giambastiani said, "To the extent that extremists can claim a clash of civilizations, then they receive support within Islam.”

It seems to me that we are all learning as we go. Was there a man who had all the answers in advance and without the advantage of hindsight? Never.

People like Steve Emerson were raising warnings as far back as the early 90's. But did we listen? No, we were thinking of a "peace dividend" and as a consequence, after getting sucker punched on 9/11, we've been playing catchup even as we drag along the deadweight of a sizeable portion of our own.

We still don't know the consequences of our actions, but the Admirals statement can be taken on it's face and the other side dearly wishes to make a global holy war. So far, we have not taken the bait dangled by the Islamists who would love nothing more than to see an escalation of the insanity. Unlike most of us here, some people have not given up on saving those Muslim people who would be saved before the conflagration. Some people think the our expended blood and treasure to date is a small price to pay for the absolution that we will sorely need if we are reduced to the scale of killing the Islamists are desperately provoking.

It's too bad, our "allies" can't see this.

9/05/2006 08:32:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

Boghie...yeah Possumtater( 8:04) got me straight on that. Critter even bit me..which I had fully earned..sometimes it's good to have a Possumtater around to keep ya honest.
Apologies for the hypocracy.

9/05/2006 08:33:00 PM  
Blogger Boghie said...

An odd question:

Can 'W' blend our republican and individualistic ideals into some form of benevolent empire?

Is he even trying?

Is it necessary?

Can the American republic be a republican empire?

Is it something we want, or is it something we can’t help?

The Roman republic failed because Gaius Marius broke the Roman republican system. He did many things that were necessary. He did many things that were great. Without him the western civilization may have been obliterated. But, he broke time honored traditions that inevitably led to Dictator Sulla and later Caesar. Many moan about ‘W’ breaking the republic – all I can say is watch carefully and be diligent. I think we are lucky. He could have easily donned the purple fringed robes on 9/20/2001. He did not.

The Left should not squeal over everything – they should key on that which is important and on actions that truly denigrate our republic. I tis a bit too late for that. Their voice is no longer heard.

These are questions that Niall Ferguson discusses in his book ‘Colossus’. If I remember correctly he figures we will drop the ball and the world will go to hell. We shall see.

Weird confluence of ideas in the ‘Mind of Wretchard’. Niall Ferguson came up in Wretchard’s earlier post, eh… Something about ‘The Nation that Fell to Earth’.

9/05/2006 08:34:00 PM  
Blogger Ilia Capitolina said...

Boghie @ 08:19:30 PM

The long war is a mirage. Its destination will always to be out of reach.
Cultural change occurs in a repetitive cyclical pattern. The Prophets understood this when they wrote "to everything there is a season". Neither desalination nor biofuels will solve our problems with Jihad. Incorporating the ME into civilization will involve depopulating it of Jihadis.

9/05/2006 08:37:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

Buddy,
Did ya see (8:04) where Possumtater called me out on my hypocracy? He got me good. Sorry. Bohgie(8:19) also schooled me on myopia and the dangers that abound there.
"I'll take desal for $500"

9/05/2006 08:39:00 PM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

boghie wrote:

The Roman republic failed because Gaius Marius broke the Roman republican system. He did many things that were necessary. He did many things that were great. Without him the western civilization may have been obliterated. But, he broke time honored traditions that inevitably led to Dictator Sulla and later Caesar.

I'm not quite sure I follow you, boghie. Gaius Marius reformed the legions so that citizens without land could serve. It was Sulla who occupied Rome by force and broke the ultimate taboo. Even under Sulla the Republican system was in full force (Sulla stepped down at the appointed time) until the Senate made Caesar dictator for life. I think you are unfairly pinging on ol' Marius.

9/05/2006 08:44:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

But, only Caesar crossed the Rubicon first. After that, the Republic was done fer. Be careful, about crossing that Rubicon.

I thot it was funny, habu--no hypocracy or however that unspellable word is spelled. You had a good point--that tho we need to proceed on both hard & soft fronts, no soldier can possibly have both as priority.

9/05/2006 08:59:00 PM  
Blogger Ilia Capitolina said...

Chris,

In war you take no prisoners. Hope you've had plenty opportunity impart that knowledge.

9/05/2006 08:59:00 PM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

occam whisker said:

Neither desalination nor biofuels will solve our problems with Jihad. Incorporating the ME into civilization will involve depopulating it of Jihadis

Unless the "depopulation of Jihadis" is done in an orderly and peaceful manner by winning them over to Western values, there will be no "civilization" to incorporate the ME into...either they destroy it by force or we destroy it by becoming as savage as the enemy we oppose.

9/05/2006 09:00:00 PM  
Blogger sam said...

Chris,

Thanks for all the hard work and sacrifice.

9/05/2006 09:01:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

Geo.H.W.Bush "Read my lips,no new taxes"
A STUNNING REDUX
W....On September 11th Mr Bush concluded that America was at war. That day, too, he stated that he would make no distinction between terrorists and those who harboured them. This rapidly became the “Bush doctrine”. America would not wait for the next attack: it would take the war to the enemy. That did not mean al-Qaeda alone. Any state sponsoring terrorists or supplying them with weapons of mass destruction (WMD) would be dealt with, even before the threat was fully developed. And America would not simply treat symptoms. It would tackle the causes of Islamic terrorism."
beginning to sound like "Read my lips" So why haven't we attacked Syria or Iran? Seems we got a lot of bombers and missiles that are "hanger queens"

9/05/2006 09:01:00 PM  
Blogger Ilia Capitolina said...

Teresita,

I have 1,400 years on my side. What do you?

9/05/2006 09:10:00 PM  
Blogger Charles said...

Solar Moves Front and Center
Sep 5 2006 7:49AM

Solar energy is about to get cheaper—much cheaper. In fact, the cost of installing solar panels on a roof is expected to drop to about a third of what it now costs over the next several years, turning an experimental industry into a mainstream boom.

In real dollars, that means the average residential installation will drop to $8,000 from the current $24,000, not including state and federal rebates

The rest of the article is posted here.

9/05/2006 09:16:00 PM  
Blogger The Mad Fiddler said...

Remember the movie "The Mouse that Roared."

look it up.

What if somebody found and hired a bunch of hackers, paid'em huge bucks to hack into the U.N. and then sucked those accounts dry.

Use the moneys to pay the cost of U.S. Military operations.

9/05/2006 09:19:00 PM  
Blogger Charles said...

Now consider. If you have cheap solar power and cheap desalinised water -- you have the basic ingredients for successful desert civilizations anywhere on the planet.

Today only places like Saudi Arabia Dubai Kuwait and the UAE can pull that off because of their oil.

That said this doesn't ensure stability. Far from it. The Saudis are the source of many terrorists.

But in the very least it will make them subject to the same sorts of problems that come with success as afflict the USA.

9/05/2006 09:24:00 PM  
Blogger trish said...

Well now, Habu, we get back to the essential understanding that this is not a war. It contains some elements of war but is actually something else. Even in those very limited areas where the rules are more generous, more sane, it is not a war. Which makes the grandiose talk of War, the comparisons to Great Wars, so...amusing. You don't have to be an advocate at this moment in time of carpet bombing, for instance, to realize just how far beneath the sweeping, cataclysmic rhetoric the reality lies.

We ought to at least, for the sake of honest communication and evaluation, give it a suitable name, properly identify it and call it what it is.

War, it is not.

###################################

Teresita,

There's a lot a myth bound up in the OEF/Northern Alliance story.

9/05/2006 09:25:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Well, how about "ambient war"--off the "hot war, cold war" contrast, Trish?

Fiddler, as a crook, you're a great musician!
;)

9/05/2006 09:28:00 PM  
Blogger rufus said...

Damn, Charles, Another Excellent Link. At $8,000./panel, a homeowner would be crazy not to install one, even if there weren't Gov't Subsidies (which there are, of course.)

Those are some heavy-hitters jumping in, now. That's a "Real Good" Sign. Thanks.

9/05/2006 09:33:00 PM  
Blogger Quig said...

http://www.nysun.com/article/38952?page_no=1

Have a peak at that.

"befriending the Islamic world where possible and engaging in a intellectual dialogue at every opportunity" [Giambastiani]
I don't think it will be possible. I don't think they want us as friends. I don't think they want to talk to us at all let alone conduct an intellectual dialougue.

I know a country that will be more than unterested in desalination and has lots of desert that needs greening!

Got to go, customers in the shop & horse rugs to repair!

9/05/2006 09:34:00 PM  
Blogger trish said...

Ambient war.

Not bad at all, buddy.

9/05/2006 09:35:00 PM  
Blogger Boghie said...

I am a bit hard on ol' Marius. But I can understand him. I am real hard on ol' Sulla. But, again, I can understand him. Caesar was the opportunistic bastard that put the final nail in the coffin of the Roman republic - but the other two 'paved the way!'...

Habu,
One thing we must all remember is that the chap on the other side of the chess board ain’t eating all peaches and cream either. Look at his situation. He is running. He is having a hard time controlling his grunts. His Arab street seems quiet. On Osama, is he a Sunni in a Shiite land? Are Shiite demands constraining him? On Iran, can they fund and organize a popular and effective ‘Katrina’ aid program in Lebanon to rebuild what their war destroyed? On Hamas, can they support the needs and desires of their citizenry? On Islamic Jihad, what of them? And, you know they all want American blood to spill on American soil.

bin Laden probably thought we would have run away from Iraq by now – leaving him in power. It was part of his plan to run us out of Iraq and then gain control of the mess to start a caliphate. Instead he has to ‘defend’ his vaporware caliphate instead of pushing onward like a modern day Suleiman. He has to sit in place and win this battle – or all is lost in his cause. Is he winning? Is he now a tool of Iran? If so, how does that affect the al-Qaeda movement? Can he succeed in two more years of Sitzkrieg?

Iran will soon face a blockade that will not leak like a sieve. Forty-Something year old Majors will remember 1979 when it comes time to lock down Iran’s borders. The UN will be bamboozled into just such a righteous sanction regime. And, is the American public going to be crying about baby-milk factories and the like? Even weak sanctions can be misinterpreted – often.

In Iraq we sit astride the Crescent of Terror. A eastern jig and we are in Iran - using Iraqi and American and Coalition troops. A western jig and we jog to water through Syria. And, the Saudis better keep their noses clean. We are spending 1.5% of our growing GDP (hence the value of tax cuts and a growing economy, eh) and losing less than 2 soldiers a month in the fight. And, we have grown our deployable ground forces by about 40,000 soldiers and Marines. What percentage of GDP is Iran spending? What percentage of militant manpower is a 200 fatality day? How good are the militants in patching up their freedom fighters to fight another day? Where are their training grounds – the kind that don’t have a huge attrition rate?

Two years is an awful long time for the chaps on the other side of the chess board.
An awful long time.

If they put all their effort in the short war – can they win the long war?

My money is on America and the West in this one.

9/05/2006 09:38:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

Trish,
You are right. This is not war. I guess you read my first diatribe on what this generation will learn.

I'm sick and tired of doing this play war stuff. It's not play war to the men and women getting shot at and killed. But damn our "leaders" if you can stomach calling them that.
I used the word opprobrium. I think I first encountered it in the Federalist #10 while taking Constitutional Law. Our "leaders should have a team jersey to wear while on the floors of Congress,yellow with "Team Opprobrium" on it.

9/05/2006 09:39:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

It does have a few apropos shades of meaning, don't it, trish.

Quig, are you a saddler?

9/05/2006 09:40:00 PM  
Blogger What is "Occupation" said...

In the future this question of the impact of the 300,000 on our country's soul will be driven by the islamic jihad's continual overplaying it's hand.

The arab world / persia / islamic fanatics do sincerely believe that their god is on their side. As time goes by and the Islamic forces continue, at an ever increasing rapid pace of engagement, to drive their points home via bombings, beheadings, stabbings etc. to all points infidel we will slowly be dragged into a huntington's clash of civilizations.

Not a week goes by now when islamic terrorists are arrested in england, denmark, spain, france, russia, jordan, iraq, israel, lebanon, egypt, pakistan, canada, italy & more. The attacks in asia are rising, in india, in indonesia & more.

When, not if, the next several big attacks occur over the next 10 yrs. i think we will find (like what has happened in israel (ref as canary in the mine by a previous post) the marginialization of the left. ) most of the peace camp will evaporate leaving a tiny, vocal spineless anti-west hating camp that still does exist even in israel, However as the CITIZEN SOLDIERS came back from lebanon (compared to the professional hezbollah fighters) there is a new reality of every israeli, this is not a land for peace issue, but an existence fight. I think the same of the 300,000 americans that came home too. But add to that the ever increasing circles of influence as these islamic nut cases continue to do violence across the globe. Millions of people are becoming more and more anger with jihadists.

I predict these 300,000 of our boys and girls will be the vanguard of honest evaluation. and that evaluation will be simply put, if the other side will not allow us to live, we can fix that issue quick (un or no un) These 300,000 will in fact become the leaders of tomorrow, and they have seen the face of the enemy close up, they will not forget.

hearts and minds of the islamic world cannot be won through compromise or discussion. It must be PROVED that god is NOT on their side, we can prove this by providing absolute no quarter destruction of anything made from the 7th century forward. This will mean total destruction of the infrastructure of any kind and cutting off of all international aid and assistance. we are not there yet...

i predict that we will see a rise in european xenophobia and nationalism not by the governments but by the people, it will be like something out of frankenstein with pitchforks and torches. the islamic world which seeks to purify it’s lands of the infidel will in fact cause the ethnic cleansing of all infidel lands of islamists..

it will not be pretty..

9/05/2006 09:45:00 PM  
Blogger rufus said...

Charles, I think, from reading the two links that you've put up that we could put a couple of inches of desalinated water on most of Texas for about $200.00/acre; and, it looks like we're heading, pretty quickly to $100.00 or less an acre.

I think that puts us only a few years away from having a vast ethanol factory in Texas and Mexico that could produce enough gasoline to drive the world. Yeah, I know I've done driven the world with Australia, and S America, and Africa, and India, Indonesia, whatever.

Don't forget "Wind" while you're powering your desalinization plants. The Sun only shine half the time, and the wind is more economical than nat gas next to the coast.

Anyway, thanks for the post.

9/05/2006 09:46:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

Boghie,
You make some good points.

Personally this "Ambient" (ht,Buddy) war is a war of ideology andI'm not concerned about the other side really winning, I'm just tired of what I mentioned in my first post. Korea,Vietnam, and now this..we could win this outright and more quickly with less loss of our citizenry feeling like they've been taken again.
Win the war first, then do the diplomacy and rebuiding if you care to do so, but win first.There is no substitue for victory. From it flow all other channels.

9/05/2006 09:49:00 PM  
Blogger Quig said...

Buddy,

Guess you'd call me a "bridler". Don't have all the skills to do saddles but my flat leatherwork isn't too bad.

9/05/2006 09:51:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Agreed.

9/05/2006 09:51:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

re:
Habu on importance of winning wars FIRST.

9/05/2006 09:52:00 PM  
Blogger Boghie said...

Here is a term for our conflict:

A Quasi Fourth Turning War...

The American public is more roused and angrier than a standard Third Turning War, but the enemy hasn’t proven themselves competent. That is, we are playing down to their level.

It is hard for the American people to have the killer instinct in this conflict. Our foes can’t even get to mid-court now that we are watching. They can’t shoot well. They can’t defend well. The best they got is a rope-a-dope strategy…

But that worked pretty well for someone, eh…

Like “What is ‘Occupation’”, I think our gumption and verve and killer instinct will be brought out by some half court basket or hard foul. They keep shooting them – one will get in. They keep shoving our players around. Actually, based on my reading here, it will take great leadership not to start the carpet bombing of random cities and towns. Yuk, yuk…

We lost our initiative when the enemy could not play the game on our court.

Is that a bad thing...

Maybe yes.
Maybe no.

9/05/2006 09:59:00 PM  
Blogger charlotte said...

I also would like to add my many and inadequate thanks to Chris for his service and also for his perspective offered here. He and other service members are making a difference in a frustrating fight that we decided to take on, but apparently with too many reservations and uncertainty over means and ends. Still, would the nation have accepted a "preemptive" intervention in Iraq with far more destruction and Iraqi casualties than our prosecution has produced so far, and would that have pacified our foes or inflamed the region, satisfied war critics at home or roiled the nation? It's really impossible to know alternate outcomes, but always wrenching to realize that the higher costs of being carefully destructive and constructively caring in a war to depose a regime and then reform a nation are borne by the amazing good men and women in our armed forces. (Chris, I'm voting Repub, you can count on that.)

9/05/2006 10:03:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

what is occupation,

The demographics will catch the Europeans too quickly for them to grow spines and fight. The Islamists will by election become the plurality party to which the other must gravitate. They will then control the police and military in some countries.
It could turn into a 1848, where there were revolutions in almost all of Europe but it's not likely.
Most of the European countries are socialist, depend on us for military protection but we're getting ready to redeploy to the African continent and some old soviets. Europe will be the wounded
wildebeest being harassed and finally eaten by Islam.

9/05/2006 10:04:00 PM  
Blogger Charles said...

rufus said...
Charles, I think, from reading the two links that you've put up that we could put a couple of inches of desalinated water on most of Texas for about $200.00/acre; and, it looks like we're heading, pretty quickly to $100.00 or less an acre.

I think that puts us only a few years away from having a vast ethanol factory in Texas and Mexico that could produce enough gasoline to drive the world. Yeah, I know I've done driven the world with Australia, and S America, and Africa, and India, Indonesia, whatever.

Don't forget "Wind" while you're powering your desalinization plants. The Sun only shine half the time, and the wind is more economical than nat gas next to the coast.
//////////
imho it'll be no more than 6 years before desalinised water will be available for $200@ acre foot. We'll hit $100@ acre foot within a year or two of that.

Wind energy is already as cheap as coal for producing energy and there's a west texas wind mill boom underway on the scale of the early 20th century oil boom.


imho the USA should announce plans already underway to collapse the cost of water desalination and transport and then send all the illegals back to Mexico -- where they'll be needed.

9/05/2006 10:11:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

"Do you like the French?"

>No, not much.<

"Well, can i have yours, then?"

9/05/2006 10:15:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

Boghie'
The American public did have the killer instinct initially. The we went stupid on the battlefield with ROE's that were absurd. Remember when we couldn't fire at a mosque. Remember when we observed Ramadan and they used it to attack us? Then it was a constant litany of holy days and do not offend the Imam days.
meanwhile our guys can't even hire a decent prostitute, hell any prostitute. Imagine that, we got in a fight where they're no whores? Wrong,wrong,wrong.
yeah, I think if we FUBAR enough and allow them another good hit on US soil our people will be real mad and buy lots of flags that will be displyed improperly and allowed to turn to rags on car antennas. We have a very "unique" population now and it's not your Daddy's demographic. (circa 1960 base year for Daddy demos)

9/05/2006 10:17:00 PM  
Blogger sam said...

Desalination -

Just a couple of quick questions:

Don't you need soil to get things to grow and turn green? How are you going to do that with sand?

Also, I read somewhere (can't remember now) that desalination plants create dead zones around them in the ocean. Something about the now highly concentrated return salt water?

Believe me, I'm all for desalination if we can do it.

Charles? Rufus?

9/05/2006 10:18:00 PM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

I think Mr. Bush needs to read some Civil War history, and specifically the parts about how many generals Mr. Lincoln had to go through before he found someone who would actually FIGHT.

The more I think about it, the more enraged I become at this idjut general/commander dude standing up in front of god and everyone and telling us about this peaceful bullshit he's going to order our troops to perform ... because he's scared to go to war because he might lose.

Fire him. Put John Bolton in charge. Or someone who's not afraid to actually *do* something, even if it does fail.

(Isn't Abizaid the one that they made a big deal about because he's Arab? Maybe Dubya needs to look for a general who both drinks and who HATES the damned Arabs!)

9/05/2006 10:21:00 PM  
Blogger Ilia Capitolina said...

Charles,

What Sam said. And even if you could turn sand into soil, growing the economic pie won't make life taste any different from what it tastes today. It will not change the Mexicans and Jihadis one iota. The structural problems in Mexico and dar al Islam will remain. Unless WE decide otherwise.

9/05/2006 10:28:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

W ON THE AMBIENT WAR ON TERROR
2001
"Any state sponsoring terrorists or supplying them with weapons of mass destruction (WMD) would be dealt with, even before the threat was fully developed."
TRANSLATION IN 2006....Their Ambassador will be locked in a room with Charo for a day and forced to listen to her.

9/05/2006 10:29:00 PM  
Blogger sam said...

U.S. deaths in Iraq, war on terror surpass 9/11 toll:

The death tolls in both conflicts are expected to rise.

"We've come a long way in Afghanistan. We've come a long way in Iraq and elsewhere in the war on terrorism," said Pace. "We have a long way to go. We are a nation at war."

Nation at War

9/05/2006 10:33:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

NITE FROM HERE

9/05/2006 10:39:00 PM  
Blogger Quig said...

Did you all see this? (Or am I a late comer)
"Osama bin Laden, America's most wanted man, will not face capture in Pakistan if he agrees to lead a "peaceful life," Pakistani officials tell ABC News.

The surprising announcement comes as Pakistani army officials announced they were pulling their troops out of the North Waziristan region as part of a "peace deal" with the Taliban...."

"The agreement was signed on the same day President Bush said the United States was working with its allies "to deny terrorists the enclaves they seek to establish in ungoverned areas across the world."
http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2006/09/bin_laden_gets_.html

9/05/2006 10:42:00 PM  
Blogger Charles said...

sam said...
Desalination -

Just a couple of quick questions:

Don't you need soil to get things to grow and turn green? How are you going to do that with sand?

Also, I read somewhere (can't remember now) that desalination plants create dead zones around them in the ocean. Something about the now highly concentrated return salt water?

Believe me, I'm all for desalination if we can do it.

Charles? Rufus?

9/05/2006 10:18:28 PM
///////////////
there are salt wastes in various deserts where water won't do much good but most of the desert will respond very well to water as it does every year during the brief rainy season.

The end of desalination research will be a pipe that you stick out into the ocean where there's a nice current. The end of the pipe will consist of a semi permiable membrane where fresh water will flow into the pipe and then flow by passive or active means onshore.

There won't be a waste brine problem.

9/05/2006 10:48:00 PM  
Blogger sam said...

Charles,

Thanks. Must have been the earlier models that I read about the brine problem.

9/05/2006 11:01:00 PM  
Blogger Kirk Parker said...

enscout,

You can repeat a Big Lie as often as you want, but that doesn't make true.

9/05/2006 11:03:00 PM  
Blogger Quig said...

Teresita:

Re: "quiq said:

Are you proposing we breed ourselves into a position where it will be unnecessary to transport food at all? That is to say there will be so many of us that we will, of necessity, live beside our food source?"

All my work is copywright and may not be reproduced in whole or in part in any media whatsoever without my express written permission.

In future be guided by the above.

I did not find your use of what was a facetious comment honest or amusing. When I start to smile, start to worry.

9/05/2006 11:08:00 PM  
Blogger Charles said...

Occam Whisker said...
Charles,

What Sam said. And even if you could turn sand into soil, growing the economic pie won't make life taste any different from what it tastes today. It will not change the Mexicans and Jihadis one iota. The structural problems in Mexico and dar al Islam will remain. Unless WE decide otherwise.

9/05/2006 10:28:09 PM
////////////////////////
this is my last post for the night. i don't know about the moslems but I do believe that the Mexicans would respond very well to reforms proposed by Peruvian Hernando De Soto. He asked the fundamental question two decades ago...why are some countries rich and some countries poor. The answer is that all rich countries have good property law and all poor countries have lousy property law. The result of good -- --property law --ie law that's recognized and respected by everyone ... is that people can easily buy and sell property and more importantly--borrow against property. In poor countries most property resides outside the formal economy and can't be borrowed against. hernando de soto's Institute for Liberty and Democracy (ILD) recently did a survey of mexico and found that only 22% of their economy was part of the formal economy. The rest was off the books.

I think that Mexico is ready for de soto's reforms. But if they're not--they can be forced to do the right thing by 12 million repatriated Mexicans who have seen what a 1st class country looks like and won't be too keen to be stuffed back in the old wineskin.

If you want to do mexico a favor--send back their now well trained citizens.

9/05/2006 11:14:00 PM  
Blogger Charles said...

sam said...
Charles,

Thanks. Must have been the earlier models that I read about the brine problem.

9/05/2006 11:01:33 PM
//////////
brine problems are current.

I was talking about what will be.

9/05/2006 11:15:00 PM  
Blogger R Prefix said...

First post. I have lurked for over two years from various locations. I am currently sitting watch at base x on continent x with a streaming feed of CNN International (CNN-I) sucking in the constant barrage of negative US reporting, but it is expected. Switching to CNN US is more of a ball buster - a never ending wave of anti-Bush, anti-American, anti-everything save power and control. Folks, this is the 4th genration warfare -information war. Where perception is reality, and facts are played fast and loose to fit a personal idiom.

What affect has this had on those that serve, I can't speak for brothers and I have to tiptoe with my comments -I will never vote for a Democrat.

"for they purpose not their death, when they purpose their services"

I despised Bill Clinton but I willingly, gladly worked ALLIED FORCE to avoid an all-out Balkan ground war.

I operated a fighter command post on 9/11, watched in utter horror and impotance the events of that day. On 9/10 I was a big L libertarian with isolationist tendencies, on 9/11 I became a dedicated to the destruction of my eneimies.

We went into Irag because we had to. Iraq was a festering mess, constantly flipping the bird and a reminder of the lack of willingness of the US to finish the job ala DESERT STORM. Iraq provides a focus -a draw play for al quida et al. It is an abortion born of Sykes-Pico. It is the last hope of the Mid East else what follows -Bloody constraint...
Therefore in fierce tempest we will come, In thunder and in earthquake, like a Jove.

Jaded, no. Wiser, perhaps. Wary, definately. Kaiser Soze lives, I've seen him; in basic training, in the regiments, in OTS, in the Iron Majors, he only awaits the word.

I've read that in modern dollars, that it cost the Roamn Empire over $150 billion to salt an area smaller than Washington DC. That is very definaition of pissed.

9/05/2006 11:54:00 PM  
Blogger 2164th said...

A Dishonest Fraud

teresita is editing comments on her web site under what she calls Belmontg Club 2. Here is what she has posted regarding an exchange between Ash and I:

"ash said:

I'm curious 2164th, how you arrived at the conclusion that homosexuality is immoral? 'cause the good book says so?

Some of my best friends are southpaws but I don't want my sister to marry one. I don't mind them too much, as long as they don't push their filthy lifestyle choice right in my face. Even the Romans used to frown on left handed boys training with their gladius to be in a legion because it had a negative impact on unit cohesion."

My actual response to Ash was as follows:

"2164th said...
Ash,

"I'm curious 2164th, how you arrived at the conclusion that homosexuality is immoral? 'cause the good book says so?"

Wipe the smug look from your face, because as usual you get it wrong. Doug and I were talking about pedophiles and seducers of young children, an act illegal in most of the civilized world. I could care less if you are a flaming homosexual or a closet queen or any combination thereof. It bothers me more about your smarmy remarks about the Bible, but does not surprise me based on many of your other posts. You enjoy playing the fool and you do it quite well.

9/05/2006 09:26:37 AM"

Ash realized he made a mistake and this is his actual response.

"Ash said:said...
sorry about that 2164th, I thought you were suggesting that Homosexuality was immoral I mistook your reply to Doug. I thought Doug was referring to public education textbooks acknowledging the existence of parents being homosexual was what was immoral instead of his notion that they are teaching kids how to be homosexual when he said:"

So teresita publishes the first entry making me out to have said something I did not and putting what she thought was her clever rejoinder. She adapts the Dan Rather method of distortion and contrivance and she has done it to others on her pathetic web site. She is a fraud. Her presence is an offense to the integrity of this site. She is taking other BC posters including our host, Wretchard and making similar edits and distortions of our actual posting and imposing her manipulated responses. She has been called on it by Doug, Catherine and Quig and has not ceased her dishonesty.

9/06/2006 12:02:00 AM  
Blogger Quig said...

Wretchard asked:
Whether that [“How can we assist the State Department, ....with projects that are more than just what USAID does?”] is an Imperial or 4th Generation Warfare question is an interesting one to debate.

I would posit that it is a 4GW question. I arrive at this position from the viewpoint of a Canadian born Australian with a great affection and respect for the USA.

I see nothing of the Imperialist in American politics. I should note, however, that I sense something of the sort in American commerce. As far as I can recall all of America’s aggressive military operations have been in the cause of maintaining normalcy in an area such that commerce can proceed smoothly. A conclusion similar to that arrived at by the twice decorated Marine.

However, expeditions to take and hold territory in perpetuity do not spring to mind (Although, had the forays into Canada in the 19th Century not been repulsed this might have been different. However, due again to poor intelligence, the advantage was not pressed and you missed out on dealing with La Belle Province de Quebec, among other things).

9/06/2006 12:09:00 AM  
Blogger sam said...

BUSH, CLINTON, LIMBAUGH, CRONKITE TO LAUNCH COURIC:

Rudy Giuliani and Bill Maher have also signed on for early editions of Couric.

CBS will issue a press release on Monday confirming details of the EVENING NEWS all-star line-up.

Couric Launch

9/06/2006 01:13:00 AM  
Blogger whit said...

Nahncee, 10:21

Re: Kumbaya Admiral promoting next Hootenanny.

Good catch! I believe yours was the only post on the thread to point that out.

For some time now, I've been thinking that we'll get serious about the killing when western women begin to feel the real existential threat and insist that their men defend them.

When the women folk think their young are in danger, the hootenanny is over. Until then, as Trish points out, it is what it is, and it ain't World War III.

9/06/2006 03:16:00 AM  
Blogger Db2m said...

Re: The big oil find off Port Arthur ("We Oil the World"), Texas:

I've been saying since the 70's that they's plenty of oil, and no, the world is not runnin' out, the earth, God bless her, is brewin' the stuff at high temperature and high pressure way down deep, and no, not from petrified or putrefied or freeze-dried dinosaur bones!

Chevron goes deep by a mile in the Gulf of Mexico, and punches a hole 6 more miles deep, and bingo, 15 billion barrels!

Q. What do we know worldwide, about the milieu 6 miles underfoot?

A. Almost Zilch, almost Nada, almost Nothing, almost Zero!

We need another para dig'em shift!

The world is not runnin' out of oil. They's TOO MUCH OIL!

Don't conserve it, WASTE IT! If we don't get it out of the ground, Yellowstone will blow up! Look out, Bobal!

9/06/2006 04:00:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

At LAST, a sober, technical, geologicalcal post!

9/06/2006 04:07:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...

re: The Razzle-Dazzle Grand Strategic Unifying Plan for Victory

Nature is unkind to two headed snakes.

9/06/2006 04:10:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...

nahncee; 10:21:02 PM

re: Civil War history

Why would Mr. Bush fire General Abezaid; after all, the General is the President’s creature?

You confuse Mr. Bush with Mr. Lincoln. Mr. Bush has far more in common with General McClellan.

9/06/2006 04:15:00 AM  
Blogger Db2m said...

Buddy,

Well, at least sober, I'm using cranberry juice to keep the juices flowin', if you know what I mean.

******

About 17,000 years ago, the Democrats on Venus got the drillin' stopped, and just look what happened!

You can hardly find a condo on Venus under 800 F any more...

9/06/2006 04:15:00 AM  
Blogger ledger said...

I don’t think this thing is over yet. Hence, probably too early to draw solid conclusions about a war that is not over.

There are two events, which are intertwined and could spell further military actions.

1. The speech by Bush clearly implicated Iran and Syria as waging a proxy war, which not only involves Israel but involves Iraq (and by extension US troops).

[Bush]:

As we continue to fight al Qaeda and these Sunni extremists inspired by their radical ideology, we also face the threat posed by Shia extremists, who are learning from al Qaeda, increasing their assertiveness, and stepping up their threats. Like the vast majority of Sunnis, the vast majority of Shia across the world reject the vision of extremists -- and in Iraq, millions of Shia have defied terrorist threats to vote in free elections, and have shown their desire to live in freedom. The Shia extremists want to deny them this right. This Shia strain of Islamic radicalism is just as dangerous, and just as hostile to America, and just as determined to establish its brand of hegemony across the broader Middle East. And the Shia extremists have achieved something that al Qaeda has so far failed to do: In 1979, they took control of a major power, the nation of Iran, subjugating its proud people to a regime of tyranny, and using that nation's resources to fund the spread of terror and pursue their radical agenda.

Like al Qaeda and the Sunni extremists, the Iranian regime has clear aims: They want to drive America out of the region, to destroy Israel, and to dominate the broader Middle East.

To achieve these aims, they are funding and arming terrorist groups like Hezbollah, which allow them to attack Israel and America by proxy. Hezbollah, the source of the current instability in Lebanon, has killed more Americans than any terrorist organization except al Qaeda.

Unlike al Qaeda, they've not yet attacked the American homeland. Yet they're directly responsible for the murder of hundreds of Americans abroad. It was Hezbollah that was behind the 1983 bombing of the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut that killed 241 Americans. And Saudi Hezbollah was behind the 1996 bombing of Khobar Towers in Saudi Arabia that killed 19 Americans, an attack conducted by terrorists who we believe were working with Iranian officials.

Just as we must take the words of the Sunni extremists seriously, we must take the words of the Shia extremists seriously. Listen to the words of Hezbollah's leader, the terrorist Nasrallah, who has declared his hatred of America. He says, "Let the entire world hear me. Our hostility to the Great Satan [America] is absolute… Regardless of how the world has changed after 11 September, Death to America will remain our reverberating and powerful slogan: Death to America."

Iran's leaders, who back Hezbollah, have also declared their absolute hostility to America. Last October, Iran's President declared in a speech that some people ask -- in his words -- "whether a world without the United States and Zionism can be achieved… I say that this… goal is achievable." Less than three months ago, Iran's President declared to America and other Western powers: "open your eyes and see the fate of pharaoh… if you do not abandon the path of falsehood… your doomed destiny will be annihilation." Less than two months ago, he warned: "The anger of Muslims may reach an explosion point soon. If such a day comes… [America and the West] should know that the waves of the blast will not remain within the boundaries of our region." He also delivered this message to the American people: "If you would like to have good relations with the Iranian nation in the future… bow down before the greatness of the Iranian nation and surrender. If you don't accept [to do this], the Iranian nation will… force you to surrender and bow down."

America will not bow down to tyrants. (Applause.)

The Iranian regime and its terrorist proxies have demonstrated their willingness to kill Americans -- and now the Iranian regime is pursuing nuclear weapons. The world is working together to prevent Iran's regime from acquiring the tools of mass murder. The international community has made a reasonable proposal to Iran's leaders, and given them the opportunity to set their nation on a better course. So far, Iran's leaders have rejected this offer
...

See: President Discusses Global War on Terror

2. There is a significant naval build up off the coast of Lebanon. Debka notes:

[Take Debka’s analysis with a grain of salt]

Military and intelligence sources discloses that “Lebanese security” and peacemaking is not the object of the exercise. It is linked to the general anticipation of a military clash between the United States and Israel, on one side, and Iran and possibly Syria on the other, some time from now until November
This expectation has brought together the greatest sea and air armada Europe has ever assembled at any point on earth since World War II
: two carriers with 75 fighter-bombers, spy planes and helicopters on their decks; 15 warships of various types – 7 French, 5 Italian, 2-3 Green, 3-5 German, and five American; thousands of Marines – French, Italian and German, as well as 1,800 US Marines.

It is improbably billed as support for a mere 7,000 European soldiers who are deployed in Lebanon to prevent the dwindling Israeli force of 4-5,000 soldiers and some 15-16,000 Hizballah militiamen from coming to blows as well as for humanitarian odd jobs
...

See: Lebanese Security Is the Pretext for the Naval Babel around Lebanon’s Shores

Give Bush’s speech and this naval build-up it’s entirely possible that Bush expects some type of renewed fighting which will require the use of these military assets. What will happen? It’s too early to say. Maybe the build-up is to encourage the French to put men on the ground. Or, It could be something much bigger. Only time will tell

Btw, I believe this is not the largest since WWII – During the Iraq war there were 3 full Carrier Groups from the USA plus British units. One would assume the American and British build-up was probably bigger than the current build-up.

9/06/2006 04:19:00 AM  
Blogger Db2m said...

Seriously, Buddy, all we need for our great grandchildren are 5 or 6 more finds like the one currently breaking the O&G news.

I'd be willing to bet there's some down in your neck of the Gulf, too.

9/06/2006 04:23:00 AM  
Blogger Db2m said...

Buddy,

I wonder if T-Boone still believes all that old dinosaur bones-to-oil nonsense.

I admire what the man has accomplished for O&G production over the last few decades.

But for now, wouldn't it be better to be drillin' deep, rather than thumpin' the shortage-scare drums?

9/06/2006 04:37:00 AM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

what is occupation said:

i predict that we will see a rise in european xenophobia and nationalism not by the governments but by the people, it will be like something out of frankenstein with pitchforks and torches. the islamic world which seeks to purify it’s lands of the infidel will in fact cause the ethnic cleansing of all infidel lands of islamists.

If the holocaust happened in response to a totally invented threat by the International Jew, it would be truly awful to see what happens when that mode of the European character reacts to the real threat of the International Muslim.

9/06/2006 04:37:00 AM  
Blogger Db2m said...

Terri,

If you should decide to post my oil comments over on your blog, please don't edit them.

Thanks!

(yes, I know, you're not interested in such drivel)

9/06/2006 04:52:00 AM  
Blogger R2K said...

: )

9/06/2006 05:16:00 AM  
Blogger luc said...

Charles said... 9/05/2006 11:15:50 PM
“brine problems are current.
I was talking about what will be. “

It seems to me that if you remove part of the water out of a mixture of water and salts, what you have left over is the same quantity salts but with less water. In my mind that would make the left over solution more concentrated than the original regardless of calling it brine or not. Have I missed something?

BTW I am all for reducing the cost of desalination and making the deserts bloom.

9/06/2006 05:31:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...

I have noticed, as has Wretchard, perhaps, that his lede, “Chester at the 5th Defense Forum,” has gone uncommented. Allow me to help.

The Long War: Dispatch 4 -- On the Terrorists’ Turf
http://politicscentral.com/2006/09/05/the_long_war_dispatch_4_on_the.php

“We must understand just how ideological and religious most of these battles are going to be.”
“One of the greatest problems is our assumption that “Western values are universal and will be welcomed throughout these countries.”
“We find ourselves equally short of people who will leave the Green Zone as civilians. The effort to organize this in the State Department has very visibly collapsed.”
“The problem is the inability to formulate a clear plan…”
___Dr. Anthony Cordesman

“When we went from conventional operations to Phase IV, we had not done a lot of planning or thinking about it.”
“As the CPA grew, money was a problem and direction was nonexistent. We could only push down authority to our battalion commanders and tell them to go forth and do good things.”
“Clearly we lost an opportunity at the end of the Baghdad campaign, and we have suffered from it since.”
___Brigadier General John F. Kelly, USMC

“History will show that we lost the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq because we didn’t give a damn about history.”
“History will show that we are evolving into Israel […]”
“History will show that nation-building is a fool’s errand unless you annihilate the enemy and are not trying to build a nation at the same time. We assumed that we could put 800 years of Anglo-American culture on a CDRom and give it to Chalabi and Karzai and tell them, ‘Ok, boys, you’ve got 6 months.’”
___Mr. Michael Scheuer

9/06/2006 05:44:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...

Feral cats should not be fed,
Unless by them you would be led.

Narcissism is a trait
When found in others, we truly hate.

9/06/2006 05:55:00 AM  
Blogger 2164th said...

Allen

touché

9/06/2006 06:12:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

db2m--no, I'm wit' you, the news yesterday on the strike was some of the best news we the people have had in some time on the energy front. I was just getting in the spirit of, y'now, bleeding off that yellowstone tumulous pressure before it blows 8 or 10 states up into the stratosphere--

Ledger, thanks for posting that--I had meant to dig up the text today. I'd say it's pretty clearly stated.

9/06/2006 06:16:00 AM  
Blogger Dan said...

What is it - ironic? - that prevents the obfuscators, opportunists and profound moral fools from understanding that their political opposition and agitation is precisely what hobbles their supposed chosen method of engagement, the political and cultural?

Oh yeah: it's because they're stupid, cowardly, bad people.

And also: they're terrible at culture and politics. Cf. Jonathan Franzen's new memoir.

So we have a problem, Mr. G. Those with the most neurotic cultural energy are the most active debasers of the cultural coin, whether they be selling the latest slasher flick or the latest shit-as-art. These do not offer any spiritual relief for me, let alone a village Shi'a in historically exciting Iraq, where the muezzin bleats about the coming Mahdi - that is where the "This is the End! Repent!" sandwich board guy has taken over the mental government of a depressingly uniform quasi-civilization.

I awoke this morning to our own muezzin, NPR's sonorous call to engage in a "battle of ideas" with the Islamist world. And what ideas would we be engaging? That the Koran is uncreated, that the Hadith and Biography are irrevocable fundaments of law? That Sunni-Shia conflict is an error of interpretation? That only by relegating religious education and political energy to cloistered corners of curricula and an almost hermetically private sphere of life will allow science, engineering, and philosophical introspection to flourish to the extent required to restore Islam to its at least 9th century regional health, so contrued? That the Muslim world needs to stop using schools as a means of propogating ideological conflicts? That the United States is its natural friend and ally, despite its profoundly non-Islamic character, its public failure to comport with the moral creed conveyed by Muhammad and other models? That God did not deliver his Word in toto and in the confusing and unbeautiful and almost monomaniacal Koran?

I fail to see how these can be accomplished without the very thought-foundations of huge swaths of the Muslim world being utterly destroyed - and I totally fail to see how a village or city neighborhood Muslim will fail to see it that way. And who can blame him?

The problem IS fundamentally military, and will remain military, because it Cannot be waged ideologically without an intellectual evolution that mirrors our own, which any thoughtful amateur historian ought to understand is merely an argument from architectonic symmetry, and therefore not an argument at all.

The problem is our own native idiots, Russia with its enormous nuclear arsenal and withering state, and China with its billion people and immortal glacial character. (Too bad the Chinese don't tend to export their own culture; now that would be a nice imporvement, sans dictatorship.)

And isn't this our problem in Iraq? Militarily, it is not difficult, but politically and culturally, without our and Europe's firm (dare I say) soliidarity, without all of us at once and forever saying NON, the Muslim world will continue to trend extremist, in harmony with its wretched failure, its rule by revolutionary junta, its romntic-psychotic mullahs recalling the depths of medieval Christendom, and its vicious cultural habits. Of course, this was the prospect to which 9/11 awakened us, provides cogency to our presence there, is demonstrated in popularity of bin Laden and the electoral victories of the Turkish ruling party, Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood. Saddam changed his flag Before 9/11, not after. So it's a long war, yet another phase of the Longest War. But with our own education system hijacked by socialists, it's no wonder we find outselves unfit to wage the cultural campaign that is indeed a prerequisite to the kind of victory the UN could find itself in ideological agreement.

9/06/2006 06:18:00 AM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

Pakistan surrenders in the Global War on Terrorism, just in time for the 5th anniversary of 9/11.

9/06/2006 06:20:00 AM  
Blogger Ilia Capitolina said...

Teresita,

That’s not a surrender. Pakistan was never on our team. That’s Pakistan telling the US “fsck off, you don’t scare me anymore”.

9/06/2006 06:31:00 AM  
Blogger Aristides said...

You have been asking about positive strategies, so here are some ideas for you, Wretchard:

1. Create a psychological, cultural, and socio-political profile of the Philippines (Open Source Intel -- OSINT). Develop an understanding of “ground truth” at a substate level of granularity (tribes, villages, neighborhoods, etc.). Monitor local media, gray literature, and socio-religio-politico postures over time.

2. Create an efficient communication network between you, the hub, and the top twenty (or so) subject matter experts (SME) on the Philippines. Allow a forum for these experts to post changes and alterations to analyses in close to real time (something that won't take too much of the experts' time), and ensure a collectivist dynamic that allows each constituent to influence all the others.

3. Create, disseminate, and enforce project objectives, creating a top-down structural constraint on the horizontal feed of the experts. Utilize a Rasmussen's Ladder approach to allow you to ask probative questions in addition to passively accepting answers, and execute planning on the basis of the latest and best information available.

4. Out of this complex environment of multilingual, multimedia, cultural and psychological information, create and implement a paradigmatic approach that will be able to provide early warnings, detect anomalies and false positives, and derive usable signals and discard useless noise.

5. Formulate context-specific contingencies and hypotheticals, modeling their consequences to the above quanta of information.

6. Create a one-page synopsis that adapts accordingly, and have this as the homepage of a website, accessible to all.

7. Using all of this OSINT, recommend on-shelf strategic media product for use in Information Operations, or, if you are truly ambitious, open a company and produce these products yourself. (DoD, starting in 2007, will appropriate $10 million annually for commercial product that can be used for strategic information operations and psyops. The commercial group with the first, most, and best product will get the lion's share of that money -- accordingly, that's what I'm working on.)

8. Consult with other area-bloggers and have them do the same for their respective niche.

9. Create a meta-site where all area sites are linked, discussed, and analyzed for overall trends. Restrict posting but not viewing, and funnel would be informants to the proper area-expert via email and FAQ's.

10. Establish DOD contacts, and maybe even get paid.

The bibliography for the above information:

1. Information Operations, abridged, Strategic Studies Institute, U.S. Army War College (2006)

2. The Creation and Dissemination of All Forms of Information in Support of Psychological Operations (PSYOP), Defense Science Board Task Force (2004).

3. The Doctrine for Joint Psychological Operations, Joint Publication 3-53 (2003).

4. Complexity and Network Centric Warfare, James Moffat, DOD Command and Control Research Program (2003).

5. Building Castles on Sand: Ignoring the Riptide of Information Operations, Carla Bass, Air War College, Air University, {1998).

Etc. etc. This is very feasible, and it would create immense strategic value for our nation. A little effort, a little time, an important resource.

9/06/2006 06:41:00 AM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

r prefix wrote:

First post. I have lurked for over two years from various locations.

Welcome to the jungle.

Iraq provides a focus -a draw play for al quida et al.

Unfortunately it also provides the perfect recruiting tool for Al Qaeda, who before 9-11 drew its pool of terrorists from the Afghan Mujahadeen who fought the Soviets in the 1980s. The solution is to move our forces to Kurdish and Shi'a territory, away from Baghdad, and to hell with the Sunnis. If they want to come north or south to fight, use Kurdish or Shi'ite manpower and US airpower to smack 'em down.

9/06/2006 06:50:00 AM  
Blogger Aristides said...

A "did you know" from Carla Bass's paper:

If not carefully considered, IO strategies can backfire, as seen in the town meeting held in February 1998 at Ohio State University with Secretary of Defense William Cohen, Secretary of State Madeline Albright, and National Security Advisor Sandy Berger. Rather than mustering public support for military action against Iraq, the meeting embarrassingly highlighted to the world a lack of US concurrence on that very point.

It might be informative to look back on that town meeting. CNN covered it:

Ohio Congressman John Boehner, a Republican, had a different take.

"If the Clinton administration's goal was to send a message to Saddam via CNN, this was an unmitigated disaster," Boehner said. "This is a matter of global security and international peace, and they turned it into the Oprah Winfrey show. Not surprisingly, it didn't work."

Diplomats from Europe and the Middle East told CNN they thought the U.S. officials were poorly prepared.

One diplomat from an Arab country close to the U.S. said the telecast revealed "a deep division" among Americans and that the administration "has not done a good job of explaining its policy."

A representative from a European ally said, "The administration is claiming more support than they've actually got."

Another major European ally called the meeting "a tactical mistake" by the administration because the show was almost certainly seen in Iraq and "may have inadvertently given Saddam Hussein good cheer."


Overall, an incredibly interesting episode in the history of American foreign policy. Much to chew on.

9/06/2006 07:02:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Where once I was alone, the multitudes have arrived.

"... Bush Administration Seeks to Foster U.S.-Iran Cultural Ties by Sponsoring Visits by Iranians
09-06-2006 6:08 AM
By GEORGE GEDDA, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON -- The Bush administration wants to open cultural exchanges with archrival Iran this fall despite tensions between Washington and Tehran about its nuclear program.

The administration has asked Congress for $5 million to fund visits by roughly 200 young Iranian professionals and foreign language teachers, and hopes the request can be approved before adjournment a few weeks from now. ..."


So we should vote Republican?
They want to bring Iranians to the US to enhance their language training. Nothing like funding the enemies Intelligence operations for them. But then Iran is not an Enemy.
Not by Law, or Executive Order.

As Mr Snow has said
"We are not Staying the Course!"
He does not, however, tell US of the new destination. We have to figure that out for ourselves.

9/06/2006 07:10:00 AM  
Blogger Charles said...

luc said...
Charles said... 9/05/2006 11:15:50 PM
“brine problems are current.
I was talking about what will be. “

It seems to me that if you remove part of the water out of a mixture of water and salts, what you have left over is the same quantity salts but with less water. In my mind that would make the left over solution more concentrated than the original regardless of calling it brine or not. Have I missed something?
//////////////////
all true except that you're talking about the ocean. Say you've got a pipe that runs 1/2 mile- 1 mile out in the ocean into 1000 feet of water--as would be the case in california. There's a coastal current 1 mile wide & 1000 ft deep that sweeps up the coast.

We're talking about an immense amount of water flowing by the intake membranes and remixing with the surrounding water.

9/06/2006 07:15:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

At just $25,000 USD per Iranian.
What a deal.

9/06/2006 07:26:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

..per my outdated drilling fluid training, the field solution to chlorides contamination is only dilution.

9/06/2006 08:26:00 AM  
Blogger Ash said...

Wretchard, citing Giambastiani, wrote:

“What will these returning veterans teach us about the Arab and Muslim world, and how will the cohort that stayed at home react to that instruction?”

The operative phrase in this question is “about the Arab and Muslim World” In short those returning from the ‘theater’ seem learn very little to nothing about the people they are fighting. They also seem to have very little knowledge of what is actually happening with respect to winning and losing as evidenced by the historical record on the disconnect between the reports through the military command to the civilian leadership in Vietnam and the reality on the ground. We see evidence of that in the current war in Iraq. The average ‘grunt’ on the ground seems to be most concerned with coming back alive. 2164th gave us a good insight into his knowledge stemming from Vietnam at 9/05/2006 06:00:02 PM which strikes me as sage advice, but it has little to do with understanding the Vietnamese. Similarly Chris shares his knowledge from being in-country and he concludes with “Out!” but again, nothing about learning things about the “Arab and Muslim world”. Which brings me to luc's comment where he stated:

“Wretchard,
Excellent post and scary at the same time because of the first answers that came to mind in response to your question regarding the interaction between those who fought and “know” and those who got a free ride at home and “think they know”.”

The hubris of “knowing” versus “think they know” stands out. Fighting in Iraq tells you little about the culture (nor how its going). The experience of the place does not come from sitting and sipping tea discussing religion or politics, or pounding back a few ales while discussing soccer but rather a very artificial and threatening interaction.

In short, the military folks learn a lot by serving but it has very little to do with whom they are fighting and it appears that those not 'there' actually seem to have a better grip on whats going on.


2164th wrote on the last thread:

"That was my lame attempt at trying to restablish a modicum of discipline before our Host changes the locks again."

I shake my head in puzzlement as each thread degenerates into the habu, doug and Buddy show. 2164th, I appreciate your modicum, unfortunately...

9/06/2006 08:47:00 AM  
Blogger trish said...

From Teresita's link above:


"Osama bin Laden, America's most wanted man, will not face capture in Pakistan if he agrees to lead a 'peaceful life,' Pakistani officials tell ABC News."


In other news, the sun rose in the East.

9/06/2006 08:54:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

trish, Gen'l Sultan is attempting to re-state:

9/06/2006 09:03:00 AM  
Blogger luc said...

trish said... 9/06/2006 08:54:19 AM

"Osama bin Laden, America's most wanted man, will not face capture in Pakistan if he agrees to lead a 'peaceful life,' Pakistani officials tell ABC News."
In other news, the sun rose in the East.

I often have to stop and ask myself why I should believe anything I read in the MSM, as it is published, without first verifying its veracity. While originally I found this to be good practice, now is becoming imperative.

"This is absolutely fabricated, absurd. I never said this," Maj. Gen. Shaukat Sultan told The Associated Press, referring to an ABC News broadcast aired hours earlier.

9/06/2006 09:17:00 AM  
Blogger trish said...

But of course, Buddy. They are thoroughly committed to bagging the rat f***. They assure you. I'm surprised Bush didn't get out there and issue a 'correction' himself.

But the original, anonymous statement is the truth of the matter. Neither bin Laden nor Zawahiri are in any direct danger from the Pakistani authorities, who preferred previously to deny they were there and at one point said, "Osama who? As you know, there are many Osamas here." Pakistan's an ally at the moment, but it's not an ally because of it's indispensible role in that little corner of the UnWar. The job would be easier if an ally it was not. But then we'd have something else on our hands, wouldn't we?

9/06/2006 09:19:00 AM  
Blogger trish said...

Correction, Buddy:

Pakistan's an ally at the moment, but it's not an ally because of it's indispensible role in that little corner of the Ambient War.

9/06/2006 09:29:00 AM  
Blogger Ilia Capitolina said...

Ash,

I keep hearing you, Cedarford, and other cloaked Jihadis in other blogs, dissemble the same line: We need to learn to our enemy. We need to learn every mutation of shit while we sink ever deeper in the Jihadi muck.


We know the enemy. What we seems to have forgotten is how efficiently to kill it. Three and half years and a trillion dollars later, is enough. We no longer can afford the time or money.

I don’t care to learn the enemy. I already know enough. I want the enemy dead.

9/06/2006 09:48:00 AM  
Blogger charlotte said...

I think we have "something else on our hands," and this Pakistani announcement is a bow to pressure from a squeezed Iran and internal extremists or a trap. There's more than a whiff of inevitability in the air of our taking on Iran-Syria sooner than later, and broad public support be damned. Lame duck Bush (and maybe Blair who has pushed his PM departure date as far as he can) seems determined to follow through on finishing *the beginning of* the job of defanging and defusing the ME, knowing he'd/they'd never get the blessing of the UN, CNN or the BCC, anyway. Bush has the added incentive that still another preemptive projection of US hard power might give Sulzberger a heart attack and Jong-il chronic indigestion.

People in the know could better read the tea leaves in world markets, diplomatic moves, and our mil-political reckonings in Iraq of late, but there are other obvious signs: the Israeli lull in Lebanon (time for intel assessment, IDF reconstitution, Lebanese readiness); Iranian mil exercises; the build-up in the Med; our anti-missle system tests; Bush's stepped up speechifying against Iranian tyranny, terrorism and its proxies; our insistence on pursuing useless UN sanctions perhaps to give a false sense of time available to Iran and lack of western resolve; the US-Iranian cultural exchange initiative desert rat laments (getting key people out of Iran and receptive one schooled, etc.); and Pakistan's sudden "capitulation". I even question the timing of that wonderful oil find announcement!

If Bush and partners are waiting until sometime after our November elections to make the strikes, do they even need to marshal broad public support for the action? Maybe the smart move would be to trump up or manufacture a crisis, because Bush always has a difficult time getting his core messages heard through the veil that media drapes over his head to muffle him like a good Muslim woman. He also has to contend with the constant false charges of lying and corruption and the threat of impeachment Democrats level at his Presidency to distract him and undermine his credibility.

It seems that, no matter how ME and proliferation issues are framed, our liberal opinion-makers, academics and tutting "experts" simply won't get with the agenda of urgency, either because they don't believe there still exists a serious threat to us post 9-11, think that time and negotiations work in our favor, or because they loathe Bush and Republicans more than they worry about national security. The administration might be able to bank on the common sense of red staters, but ultimately Bush will do what he thinks is right without much regard for polls... after the upcoming election. I wonder whether too clever by far Dems will make Iran a campaign issue this fall, by saying, simultaneously, Bush has failed to keep Iran from nuclearizing and that he intends to recklessly attack Iran without provocation.

9/06/2006 09:48:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...

Returning to Chester and his “The Long War: Dispatch 3 -- The Unfolding Wars of the Littorals,” the baby boomers figure large in the Navy’s planning and budgetary constraints. When it was “not[ed] that even though we spend more today now in total dollars, we spend much less as a percentage of GNP than we historically have in the post-World War II period,” the moderator “Col. Work responded that the difference between then and now is the unprecedented deficits we anticipate after 2016, due to the aging of the baby boomers and their budget requirements.”

http://www.politicscentral.com/
2006/09/05/the_long_war_
dispatch_3_luncht.php

As the US spends its current resources trying to find a “Plan” that can survive initial contact with the enemy, a modernized, fully equipped Navy goes begging. DR, Habu, and others have rightly noted that victory is possible when the war is taken to the enemy. A winning football team shows up on Sunday to play its game. The team that must try to adapt is the loser.

9/06/2006 09:54:00 AM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

Ledger (4:19AM) posted in part this

Military and intelligence sources discloses that “Lebanese security” and peacemaking is not the object of the exercise. It is linked to the general anticipation of a military clash between the United States and Israel, on one side, and Iran and possibly Syria on the other, some time from now until November
This expectation has brought together the greatest sea and air armada Europe has ever assembled at any point on earth since World War II: two carriers with 75 fighter-bombers, spy planes and helicopters on their decks; 15 warships of various types – 7 French, 5 Italian, 2-3 Green, 3-5 German, and five American; thousands of Marines – French, Italian and German, as well as 1,800 US Marines."

I am NOT doubting Ledger's veracity but do we have any confirmation from any other sources other than Debka (which seems to be out off favor)

If it is true,they won't linger there long without taking action.DO WE know where any of the other carrier battle groups are presently?
I'm think'in BEFORE the mid terms it's Syria and Iran gett'in a noot full of AMBIENT WAR.
ALSO FLY THE FLAG ON 9-11 please.

9/06/2006 10:06:00 AM  
Blogger DB2 said...

"This expectation has brought together the greatest sea and air armada Europe has ever assembled at any point on earth since World War II: two carriers with 75 fighter-bombers, spy planes and helicopters on their decks; 15 warships of various types – 7 French, 5 Italian, 2-3 Green, 3-5 German, and five American; thousands of Marines – French, Italian and German, as well as 1,800 US Marines."

Well, earlier this year there was Operation Valiant Shield in the Pacific.

China treated to a sight of US might
www.atimes.com/atimes/China/HF28Ad02.html

US strategists think that if their officers meet regularly with the Chinese, the two sides will understand each other better, avoiding misunderstandings and miscalculations that might put them on the road to war. So the Pentagon invited, for the first time, a top-level delegation from China...

Three of America's 12 aircraft carriers joined Valiant Shield. For now, even one remains but a dream for Zhang. Overhead flew billion-dollar B-2 stealth bombers for which China has yet no serious countermeasures.

Rear Admiral Zhang Leiyu led a 10-strong PLA delegation, including generals from the army and air force, to watch Valiant Shield and meet US commanders. Unlike their US counterparts, the Chinese did not hold press conferences. However, China's state-run Xinhua News Agency reported that the exercises "deeply impressed" the generals.

3 carriers, 30 ships, 280 aircraft, 22K people

DB2

9/06/2006 10:09:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

From:
A Frantic Hunt For Peace:
For the Secretary of State, a wild week of chasing impossible deals
Time Mag - - Monday, Oct. 16, 2000
- By DOUGLAS WALLER WITH LBRIGHT
No legacy points
In 2000, getting Bin Laden wasn't particularly important to Secretary Albright,
...Bin Laden wasn't worth any legacy points--not at that point.

'Arafat thundered and stormed out of one of the residence's ornate conference rooms. Albright, in another room, was alerted that Arafat was bolting for his limousine. She dropped her papers and raced out, finding the Palestinian leader 20 paces down the hallway, headed for the front door.
Running awkwardly in heels, she did her best to catch up, shouting at him to stop. But the old man didn't even look back. By the time Albright reached the doorway, Arafat was climbing into his limo. "Close the gates! Close the gates!" Albright yelled to the Marine Guards...

[...]
'While they were gone, Albright's team typed up the steps the two men would take to defuse the crisis. When Barak and Arafat returned, Albright planned to show them the paper so they could begin wordsmithing. But Chirac tripped up the plan when he told Arafat he agreed that there should be an international inquiry. Emboldened, Arafat decided...
---
Hewitt Commenter Frog

9/06/2006 10:30:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Trish!
How dare you smear the good name of
Maj. Gen. Shaukat Sultan!

9/06/2006 10:34:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Roggio on the Paki developments. Some commentary on a possible clearing & delineating of the infected area, with eye toward a "free hand" for the allies (I know, trish--a stretch, perhaps).

Also woth reading is this, on the significance of those accursed Rus anti-tank weapons (ht mika).

9/06/2006 10:35:00 AM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

AMBIENT WOWA

I see an attack straight across Iraq to Iran. Americans leading the attack with Israeli's in the mix. IFF signs known to allies.
Simultaneously will be cruise missile attacks and from Diego Garcia(B-1's and Missouri(B-2's)
The venerable "Buff" will be there too with a host of cruise and other choice weaponry.
THIS COULD BE A FULL MONTY AMBIENT
needless to say some subs in the area.

9/06/2006 10:36:00 AM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

Doug,
The way I heard it Albright caught the limo,assumed the position, and leg pressed the rear wheels off the ground, until jackstands arrived.
NASCAR teams are trying the technique right now..in secret

9/06/2006 10:40:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

'Rat:
If below makes Hewitt sick, wait 'til he discovers what you have!

I Think I'm Going To Be Sick
Hugh Hewitt
Kobayashi Maru has the title of Khatami's Harvard propaganda speech , scheduled for 9/10:
"The Ethics of Tolerance in An Age of Violence."
A longer post on the subject is here .
What a sick joke to play on the country; what an incredible collapse of judgment at Harvard and the State Department.

9/06/2006 10:43:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Habu:
Buddy finally gets to know WHY his sweetheart is such a fitness freak!

9/06/2006 10:44:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

catherine, and the debka conjecture, will note the announcement just now that French hawk Nicolas Sarkozy is coming to USA for a 4 day visit, and will attend the 911 services.

9/06/2006 10:45:00 AM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

habu_3 wrote:

This expectation has brought together the greatest sea and air armada Europe has ever assembled at any point on earth since World War II...

Back in the days of Reagan's 15-carrier 522 ship Navy we called that a detachment. If the Admiral wanted some nice teak carvings to decorate his stateroom he'd send a little 2 carrier group up to Pattaya Beach to fetch back some.

9/06/2006 10:50:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Doug, you're just jealous. She's a whole different Secretary of State in one o these west Austin gin joints.

Pres speech coming up--in minutes--#3 in the series. Hold tight.

9/06/2006 10:50:00 AM  
Blogger trish said...

"Bin Laden wasn't worth any legacy points--not at that point."

Doug,

CNN's (pretty good) "In the Footsteps of Bin Laden", taken largely from Peter Bergen's reporting, revealed an interesting tid-bit: In 1998 or 99, I believe, when bin Laden had been momentarily located at a small family compound in southeast Afghanistan, surveillance showed a swingset in the yard. The operation, presumeably to be undertaken by air, was nixed, as the swingset suggested the presence of children.

If there were no children, it was a brilliant purchase.

9/06/2006 10:54:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Captain's Quarters continues along the better line on interpreting the Paki movement.

9/06/2006 11:28:00 AM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

ash.
tough. now when Wrethchard officially appoints you as "post monitor" then I suggest you shut the F*UK up.
You might have noticed that I started my posts with answering each of the original questions..no mention of that on your part....selective objections, not objective observations.
You have repeatededly shown youself to be an acknowledged assH*le.
Even your post bring this to light isn't on point. You want disharmony from me. I'll give your post no more readings.YOU ARE A NON PERSON...PERSONALLY I WOULD RECOMMEND OTHERS DO THE SAME.
I would also say that when a thread reaches 300+ comments the topic has been exhausted. Wretchard made a two post rule which dropped his comment count by about 80%. You can't get advertising with those numbers, and money dear boy/girl is always the name of the game.
So just go away .....

9/06/2006 11:35:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...

doug; 10:43:13 AM

re: what an incredible collapse of judgment at Harvard and the State Department - HH

How many times today have read something equivalent about some person or department within the Administration's pervue?

Soon, someone will have to tell me the difference between Republican incompetence and Democrat incompetence; things are becoming a blurr here.

At least with the Dems. I wouldn't have to constantly question what some idiot has done to my party.

9/06/2006 11:39:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Simple, my dear Allen:
Dem incompetence is loudly proclaimed and decried at the BC.

GOP "incompetence" is part of the Master Plan tm.
Oh, ye of Little Faith!

9/06/2006 11:44:00 AM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

With regard to Chester at the 5th Defense Forum I see that most posters have ignored the comments of Ash. What will future 9-11 generation people learn? The same thing. Sorry I even reponded the first time. Wasted time.

9/06/2006 11:44:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Habu,
The two now most loudly complaining about the tenor of the thread are the same two that repeatedly introduce the most disharmony!
...and very few valuable links, I might add.

9/06/2006 11:48:00 AM  
Blogger Ash said...

habu_3 wrote:

"Wretchard made a two post rule which dropped his comment count by about 80%. You can't get advertising with those numbers, and money dear boy/girl is always the name of the game."

hmmm, let me see if I understand you here habu; wretchard specifically asks for restraint in copious posting but you think you should go against his wishes because your posts mean he makes more money? Brilliant! I am soooo happy to hear that soooo many come to read your brilliant nuggets of truth AND wretchard benefits as well.

9/06/2006 11:53:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Doug, your 11:44, NOW you're *finally* catching on.

9/06/2006 11:56:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

I think what we need to ascertain with more certainty than we currently possess about the enemy's mind is if every single one of them stops functioning in approximately the same way when they are no longer supplied with blood.

9/06/2006 11:57:00 AM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

trish wrote:

The operation, presumeably to be undertaken by air, was nixed, as the swingset suggested the presence of children. If there were no children, it was a brilliant purchase.

I wonder where they got that idea? It's not like a swingset would stop Hizbollah or anything.

allen said:

Soon, someone will have to tell me the difference between Republican incompetence and Democrat incompetence; things are becoming a blurr here.

It's not a Democrat thing or a Republican thing, as the years go by the government just gets more expensive, more fumbling, deadlier and bigger.

9/06/2006 12:01:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

On Topic

On the topic of the thread 2164 said:
"What effect will these two groups have when they become the leaders of our government, economy and culture?"

The last similar war where we can look for answers to this question is Viet Nam. If that is a guide and it is, then I have a few predictions:

1. Anyone,especially if they served in the military during the early part of Viet Nam, say from 1963 forward also served with men who fought in Korea and WWII. These veterans were conservative, cautious and sceptical.
2. They were impressed and disgusted with the incredible waste of men and resources by the military.
3. They were sceptical, critical and unimpressed with most if not all politicians. They developed a very keen nose for the whiff of BS.
4. Most real veterans valued the extra effort to keep the peace, but understood you do not fight wars in half measures. If men are asked to sacrifice what can be their all, they expect to use every means necessary to destroy the enemy. Anything short of that is a sellout.
5. Men who serve in combat understand the ambivalence and fragility to life and death. it is a lesson never forgotten.
6. Those who served will become resentful of those that talk the talk but never took the stroll when they had the opportunity to do so.
7. If they come out alive and unscathed, they will over time, realize it was a life experience that made them better men.

That was followed by others to which I reponded:
Wretchard,
Thank you for a new question to explore.
What will the 9/11 generation teach us about the Arab and Muslim world and how will the cohort that stayed home react to that instruction?
My first thoughts are almost entirely identical to what 2164 has already posted.
It will be very hard to put lipstick on this pig for the same reasons we lost Vietnam. Will to stay the course as an ally and a nation.
We didn't win WWII. Hitler lost it by attempting a two front war. We tried to stay out. The bomb ended the fighting but the victory was the Battle of Britain and the horrible Eastern front.
In Vietnam we were constrained by politicians from using our might, as they had done in Korea.
In the first Gulf War we used massive bombing and a hundred hour ground war that saved Kuwait but taught us nothing.
Now this war. We don't bomb this (Haiphong Harbor, don't cross the Yalu River in hot pursuit) in the form of mosques where we knew they were basing ops from.
Shock and Awe was Madison Avenue at war. We never level a city where we should have levelled many.

What not only the 9-11 generation will learn is what the Vietnam generation learned, which is what the Korean generation learned. Our politicians in their timidity and opprobrium will not allow a military victory in a unconditional surrender manner, NO MATTER WHAT.
** What will they have learned from the Arab and Muslim world?
My guess is that these first 300,000 will learn they were lied to, because after all the Commander in Chief said Islam was a "peaceful religion". A lie in wartime is a treasonable act. They will learn as the three previous generations did that our government lies and uses young mens lives to cover the lie.
*** Department of State
More timid than the Presidency and the Congress.
**Summation
Another generation will pass to their brothers and sisters that the United States, for whatever reason, cannot be trusted to back you up on the battlefield where life and death is decided and therefore the social compact binding this nation together will continue it's disgraceful unravelling.
In between Teresita disgracefully misrepresenting intellectual property continued to hijack and prostitute points of other posters, all in an attempt to PIMP her site at the expense of the BC.
But others followed on course: Ash making one lame rehash of what others had already said. Then in a genuinely pusillanemous genuflection to our host whimpered about people not staying on track.
Well, repeating what others have already stated is not adding to the discussion, it's just restating the obvious to look intellectual.
But Chester does make some fine points in his observations of what went on at the 5th Defense Forum.
Wretchard's question comes down to "What shall we now do?"

9/06/2006 12:03:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Trish,
If there were no children, how could we have been sure they might not arrive to swing just before the bombs did?
That type of error is beyond the
Pale according to the UNWar Doctrine tm

9/06/2006 12:04:00 PM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

ash said:

I shake my head in puzzlement as each thread degenerates into the habu, doug and Buddy show.

You can't control the posting behavior of others, but you can post informative and enlightening posts yourself, no matter how long in the tooth the thread gets, and maybe it will inspire someone to respond in kind.

9/06/2006 12:06:00 PM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

habu_3 said:

In between Teresita disgracefully misrepresenting intellectual property continued to hijack and prostitute points of other posters, all in an attempt to PIMP her site at the expense of the BC.

Habu, I feel we got off on the wrong foot. What do you say we bury the hatchet (and not in my head!) ?

9/06/2006 12:08:00 PM  
Blogger allen said...

doug; 11:44:33 AM

re: incompetence

Wilson, Roosevelt, and Johnson all ran pacific campaigns; all followed up as hawks.

Criticism of the President by the Dems may be nothing more than posturing. They do have a history of that.

Sounds like the boys at Gitmo are going to get some new terrorist buds - all covered by Geneva.

Wow! That is some planning.

9/06/2006 12:09:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Habu said,
"Wretchard's question comes down to "What shall we now do?"
---
My suggestion is posted at 11:57:57 AM

9/06/2006 12:10:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

TERESITA..A-OK WITH ME ..no caps meant

9/06/2006 12:19:00 PM  
Blogger exhelodrvr said...

What no one has yet been able to explain is how this administration would have been able to wage a "total war" given the current political climate/political correctness epidemic both domestically and internationally. Calling Islam a religion of violence, while true, would have immediately lost any allies/potential allies. The same would have occurred had the military executed a "scorched earth" policy, as many have advocated. While it would be appropriate from a purely military point-of-view, it is not a realistic alternative politically. And in our political system, that absolutely needs to be taken into consideration before long-term ventures (such as the war on terror) are started. 9/11 was not severe enough to permanently knock some sense into most of the western world. So President Bush is stuck with the alternatives of fighting this war with one hand tied behind his back, or not fighting it at all. Seems to me he made the right choice.

9/06/2006 12:22:00 PM  
Blogger Aristides said...

Habu_3/Possumtater, 22.
Buddy Larsen, 17.
Teresita, 19.
Doug, 16.
Charles, 10.
2164th, 8.
Occam Whisker, 8.
Allen, 7.
Boghie, 7.
Trish, 6.
Quig, 5.
Db2m, 5.
Sam, 5.
Desert Rat, 4.
Rufus, 4,
Luc, 3.
Catherine, 3.
Aristides, 3.
Nahncee, 2.
Chris, 2.
Whit, 2.
Jamie Irons, 2.
Ash, 2.
Kinuachdrach, 1.
Meme Chose, 1.
What is "Occupation", 1.
Dont_Overthink_It, 1.
Enscout, 1.
Kirk Parker, 1.
Raymondshaw, 1.
Alex, 1.
R Prefix, 1.
Dan, 1.
Ledger, 1.
Db2, 1.
Exhelodvr, 1.

Now, that distribution is consistent--within a reasonable margin--on every single thread. Most of the posts were not responsive to the thread topic; they were responsive to each other posts. Many were simply snark, puns, and witticisms. Only a few contained links, and the vast majority of those that did contain links were off-topic.

Those are the facts. If you come here to read several off-topic posts by a few posters, internal conversations, inside jokes, and puns -- then those facts are good and nothing to be embarrassed about. If that is not why you come here, those facts are frustrating and slightly annoying.

During the Lebanese-Israeli war, multiple postings were an overall good because events were happening so quickly and a fog had descended on our informational content. Those multiple postings were clarifying. I hate to say it, but most postings now are mere noise.

9/06/2006 12:38:00 PM  
Blogger Aristides said...

Sorry, Buddy, Teresita should be in front of you, and now I'm up to 4.

9/06/2006 12:39:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Dan said,
"The problem IS fundamentally military, and will remain military, because it Cannot be waged ideologically without an intellectual evolution that mirrors our own, which any thoughtful amateur historian ought to understand is merely an argument from architectonic symmetry, and therefore not an argument at all. "
---
Agreed
He also said:
"But with our own education system hijacked by socialists, it's no wonder we find outselves unfit to wage the cultural campaign"
---
This article describes vividly that Harvard of today produces a less educated product than some City Colleges in the 50's.
Harvard in Terminal Decline :
As things stand now, no president appears capable of taming the imperial faculty; almost none is willing to try; and no one else from inside the world of the universities or infected by its self-serving culture is likely to stand up and say “enough,” or to be followed by anyone if he does.
Salvation, if it is to come at all, will have to come from without.
---
The Exodus Mandate and the Alliance for Separation of School and State.
"Homeschoolers avoid harmful school environments where God is mocked, where destructive peer influence is the norm, where drugs, alcohol, promiscuity and homosexuality are promoted," says the California-based Considering Homeschooling Ministry.

"The infusion of an atheistic, amoral, evolutionary, socialistic, one-world, anti-American system of education in our public schools has indeed become such that if it had been done by an enemy, it would be considered an act of war," Kennedy said in a recent commentary.

One new campaign aims to monitor public schools for what conservatives see as pro-gay curriculum and programs; another initiative seeks to draw an additional 1 million children into homeschooling by encouraging parents already experienced at it to mentor families wanting to try

9/06/2006 12:47:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Aristides:
Care to do a WORD COUNT of
"Doug"
and
"Aristides" ?
Hmmm?
We could also determine which posts are more easily understood and possibly connected to the real world in at least some remote way.

9/06/2006 12:51:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

Doug,(11:57)

Chester and Wretchard I am sure would have discussed this at the 5th Defense Forum. In fact I think it was in one of the breakout discussions in another room...but
I think that hypoxemia is a problem that afflicts many with mortal wounds.
Perhaps these warships putatively gathering off the coast of #1 Cedar Place will provide the greater hypoximia required to form our adversaries into hog food. At least I think that was the discussion in the breakout session of the 5th Defense Forum but I could be wrong.

9/06/2006 12:53:00 PM  
Blogger Aristides said...

Ah, Doug, somehow I knew you'd respond like that.

Read my post on 9/06/2006 06:41:45 AM and its bibliography. If you can get more connected to the real world, I'd like to see it. As for word count, you got me: I'm verbose.

If you don't like to get called out, don't do it. If you don't care--if you are truly unembarrassed by your numerous postings--why all the fuss and invective when someone decides to mention it? Wear it proudly, or don't wear it at all.

9/06/2006 01:04:00 PM  
Blogger Annoy Mouse said...

Annoy Mouse 1

9/06/2006 01:07:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Aristides 1,065
Doug 996
---
We could then compare how many words you spent bitching, which you also would win.
---
If you care to match the predictive power of you posts over the past 3years vs mine or 'Rats I think we know where that leads.
...but you do write fancy words, I'll give you that.

9/06/2006 01:14:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"your posts"

9/06/2006 01:15:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

I like posters that do something other that bitch and moan about other posters, actually.
Some don't.

9/06/2006 01:19:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Habu 12:53:09 PM,
I'll ask Aristides.
I'm sure he can elaborate in a learned treatise leading somewhere.

9/06/2006 01:21:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"Ah, Doug, somehow I knew you'd respond like that."
---
The brilliance is outshown only by the modesty.

9/06/2006 01:23:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

aristides,
If i've told Possumtater once, I've told him a thousand times not to abuse the two (modified by Wretchard) post rule.
I see no alternative but to kill,roast and eat PossumTater.
I would further suggest that a counter be placed on each BC contributor so that at the two post limit you will be cut off.
In this way, instead of having threads with 300-600 posts, many of which as you pointed out are badinage among BC'ers, the Belmont Club can have 40-60 posts each a doctorial thesis' of 5,000 words.
MEGO sets in immediately with the public.
And the BC'er gather at another watering hole that would be more that happy to have 300-500 comments. But that's not my call. Now I guess I'll go kill PossumTater ....we could all meet at TigerHawks for badinage and fondue!!
sidebar: it is utterly amazing to me that some do not understand the dynamics of groups OR more importantly that the internet and BLOGGING are businesses. Most fail due to lack of comment count. Lastly I leave you with this to ponder:
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
--George Bernard Shaw

9/06/2006 01:29:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

Doug,
when I first started posting here I noticed the names of the posters. I think that's a nautural thing.
Then one day I saw ARSTIDES as a name. My first impression was that this dude has some huevos to use that august name.
Well, over time, he didn't quite measure up to his namesake ..unless you're using an electron microscope.

9/06/2006 01:38:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Habu,
Another thing I get out of reading threads is valuable LINKS.
I think I have posted more than my share for others, perhaps more than anyone.
Others think their brilliant thoughts are of more value.
Good that we are not all clones, I think.

9/06/2006 01:39:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

You're just old school, Habu, back when trogs kept score.
---
But if we live long enough perhaps the Universe will coalesce in the exact pattern Ari "knows" it will.

9/06/2006 01:42:00 PM  
Blogger Jamie Irons said...

Aristides,

If I may, I will defend my two posts on the grounds that, while not especially relevant, they were only mildly annoying.

(Much like their author.)


;-)

Jamie Irons

9/06/2006 01:44:00 PM  
Blogger whit said...

Chester attended a forum whose discussing the Navy’s future in the long war. This is an interesting article that popped up in Google. Apparently, there were some “turf“ questions.

By LOUIS HANSEN, The Virginian-Pilot
© November 5, 2005
NORFOLK — Recognizing a growing need for sailors trained in close combat and security, the Navy has realigned and plans to expand its land-based forces under a single command.
The Naval Expeditionary Combat Command was established last month and will eventually encompass 40,000 sailors around the world. Their headquarters will be at Little Creek Naval Amphibious Base.
After months of study and debate, the Navy moved forward with plans to bolster its land-based operations while leaving infantry tasks to the Marines.
“The Marines are the naval infantry,” said Rear Adm. Donald C. Bullard, deputy chief of staff for operational readiness and training for Fleet Forces.
Still, he said, “we’re inextricably linked in this battle space.”
With heavy combat in the Middle East taxing the Army and Marines, the Navy wants to put more boots and force into the fight. The Navy estimates it has 7,000 sailors on the ground in Afghanistan and Iraq. Sailors guard ports and oil platforms, build roads and buildings and run customs operations, among other duties.
The Navy also will re-establish a riverine combat force to close a gap in providing force and protection along rivers in hostile countries. The “brown water Navy” has not been widespread since swift boats fought in Vietnam, although Navy SEALs perform specialized river operations.
Bullard expects a force of more than 700 sailors to fill three units of river combat forces, with the first unit to become operational in 2007.

9/06/2006 01:45:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

Aristides,
Using your figures there would be 18 contributors making a total of 23 comments....

So explain to me exactly how this helps Wretchard develop a successful blog?

Then of course there are lies,damn lies ,and statistics.

9/06/2006 01:48:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

I do find your Hubris nauseating, however, Mr. Irons!

9/06/2006 01:49:00 PM  

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