A Temporary End to the Fighting?
This just in: the US and France reached agreement on a Security Council resolution to end fighting between Israel and Lebanese Hezbollah guerrillas, U.S. Ambassador John Bolton said. An official with knowledge of the talks, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the draft calls for a "full cessation of violence" between Israel and Hezbollah, but would allow Israel the right to launch strikes if Hezbollah attacks it.
The draft Franco-American ceasefire resolution "'does not say immediate cessation of violence,' said the official, who spoke anonymously because the draft had not yet been made public. That appeared to be a major victory for the U.S. and Israel." according to the AP.
posted by wretchardthecat at 8/05/2006 08:28:00 AM
61 Comments:
I'll also note it says a full cessation of violence, not an immediate one.
So we're being unilateral all over the place, France is being included (take THAT Lefty moonbats), Condi is still flying around the globe consulting everyone who agrees to be consulted, the UN's Security Council is in full discussion mode ... and Israel bombed Beirut yesterday, is bombing Tyre today, and will bomb Bekaa Valley tomorrow; and Nasrallah is begging someone - ANYone - to get a "ceasefire" declared NOW.
Way to be team players to the Bush Administration, and for Israel: Go, Jews, Go!!!
I believe this is peace in our time!
JF'ingKerry wants to fire Bolton.
Right here in the middle of all this, JF'ingKerry wants to fire Bolton.
Interesting snippets:
Sri Lanka has tightened up security after the Tamil Tigers massacred 100 Muslim men whom they suspected had told security forces about the rebels' movements.
Also, Human Rights Watch thinks Hezbollah is guilty of war crimes. "'Lobbing rockets blindly into civilian areas is without doubt a war crime. Nothing can justify this assault on the most fundamental standards for sparing civilians the hazards of war.' Hezbollah claims that some of its attacks are aimed at military bases inside Israel, which are legitimate targets. But most of the attacks appear to have been directed at civilian areas and have hit pedestrians, hospitals, schools, homes and businesses."
ffe said...
It would be premature to speculate how that will turn out since we don't know the precise to terms of the Franco-American draft.
And here among the Belmont Club Comments, we don't like to do anything to add to the epidemic of permature e-speculation.
Another example of how politics is linked at the hip to war.
The 172nd Stryker Brigade deployed to Baghad. "Several Stryker armored fighting vehicles were seen today in Baghdad's mostly Sunni neighborhood of Ghazaliyah in the western part".
But.
Iraq the Model asks: why is America so reluctant to take on Moqtada al-Sadr after all he has done and all that he is acknowledged to be? "So what are you in America going to do while we still have the chance, still have the determined leadership and while there's still hope?"
So both Israel and the US plainly see where the danger comes from, but on both sides there are many who want to keep the lid on and leg the diplomats work their "magic".
The ceasefire is a perfect example of procrastination. A complete cessation of hostilities. But not yet. The check is signed, but it's in the mail.
http://fkclinic.blogspot.com/2006/08/must-clean-windowsmust-clean-windows.html
"Ms Arroyo expressed the nation’s “indignation and outrage” over the death of two household helpers—Mary Jane Pangilinan and Michelle Tomagan—who she said were trying to escape their employers to join the evacuation of their compatriots....“Our request to our OFWs and to their loved ones here, please tell them don’t take unilateral action,” Conejos said. “If your employer refuses to release you, you must call the embassy. Don’t attempt to leave on your own, especially if in so doing you will endanger your life.” He advised them to instead contact the Philippine embassy in Beirut because labor attachés and embassy officials there were “very adept on these things” and would negotiate for their release.
The maids died after jumping out of windows....And now we read the spin.....LINK ->
Labor Undersecretary for International Labor Relations Manuel Imson said, "Initial verbal reports indicate the two were cleaning windows when it happened. We're still waiting for the official police reports to tell us if they fell, jumped, or were pushed. From initial reports, they (deaths) happened in the normal course of work.".....
There were persistent reports that most Lebanese employers were preventing their Filipina domestic helpers to repatriate back to Manila....
update: Manila Bulletin affirms at least one was killed trying to escape down bedsheets.. link2 says they are the first Philippine casualties of the war...
Ironic, isn't it, that with 30 000 Pinoys in Lebanon, the first two casualties were due to employer abuse and not Israeli Bombs?"
* * *
Color me shocked and amazed that Lebanese Arab/Muslim employers are just as mean and vicious as Saudi Arab/Muslim employers.
Let's see, how long did we discuss Iraq in the UN? It was a year or so after 9/11, wasn't it? That'll do here.
Meanwhile, Germans found two professionally built suitcase bombs on commuter trains, actually found them in Lost'n'Found. There was a package with Arabic writing indicating it came from Beruit. What did the Germans do to make the Islamofascists mad at them?
And now Iran openly admits supplying long-range rockets to the Hez, and being in the process of stocking them with SAMs.
Yeah, a "ceasefire" is what is called for, no fighting back by the good guys!
We can only hope these latest talks with France are as honest, open and well-meaning as France's talks with us leading up to OIF. Backstabbing bastards, Bolton can handle them.
whit,
"You can pay me now and you can pay me later". Now is cheaper.
Of course it is. I remember an old economics class where the professor explained that "lay away" made no sense. You could save the money in a bank and earn interest to boot. Yet sadly, a lot of people pay later and a lot of people lay away.
I'm beginning to think that diplomats operate according to the principle 'never solve a problem today that you can leave until tomorrow' -- when it will be somebody elses. Pacifism is often the art of ensuring that your children, not you, get to experience the horrors of the battlefield. I can see how this could make sense. My only problem is enshrining this attitude as virtue.
wretchard said...
whit,
"You can pay me now and you can pay me later". Now is cheaper.
Of course it is. I remember an old economics class where the professor explained that "lay away" made no sense
Well, actually, there is good economic rationale to 'paying later' and it is simply based on your obtaining a greater rate of return then the cost of the interest. All this is really not applicable to politics and war because it is not simply a 'zero sum game'.
I guess there's always the hope that the bad guys will "see the light" sooner or later. That's the fig leaf, anyway, covering western diplo-deferment. Lately, tho, little by little, the rhetoric out of the Jihad Nation is disrobing the west of the fig leaf.
Buddy, that requires a simplistic interpretation of their just being Good guys vs Bad guys. There is plenty of bad on all sides in the ME and the world in general. Simplistic approachs seem to devolve to all out war pretty quickly.....I guess many here view that as a good thing.
Well, okay, Ash, for you, I'll change it to "there's always hope that the good guys will see the light".
redaktor said:
You'd think that perhaps finding themselves sitting on hundreds of billions of barrels of oil as its price quadrupled in value over the past three years would have eased the feelings of victimhood among the muslim population.
Well, the people who actually gain from the sale of oil are not the sort of people who share that wealth with the "victims" in the "muslim population" but they are the sort of people who cover up their selfishness by drumming up hatred of Israel and America in the same way a matador waves a red cape.
Right--why wouldn't continuing to rely on failed approaches be "simplistic"?
all that has happened is that another truth of arafat has been painfully learned:
Say one thing in the west/UN, and keep shooting.
Bush has learned what the Palestinians/Arab world had perfected.
SPEAK OUT OF BOTH SIDES OF THEIR MOUTH AT THE SAME TIME.
This is wonderful, at the same time, the USA is shipping more weapons to Israel via Britian, but now any more info is blacked out.
and Israel IS doing things..
6 days til Heathers Metrics...
Whit, Wretchard:
RE: "You can pay me now or you can pay me later". Now is cheaper.
Perhaps most ironically and hunorously expressed via the character "Wimpy" from the Popeye cartoons - "I'll gladly pay you tomorrow for a hamburger today".
Buddy,
As I was saying last week, I think Ash is probably a nice person, the kind who would be a good friend.
We should certainly allow him (or her) to continue posting opinions, and listen respectfully.
But I am fairly certain all argument, however gentle and reasoned, is in vain.
Jamie Irons
Regarding the temporary end to fighting, this excerpt from my blog post Uncertain Prospects in Lebanon elaborates on one of the many negative consequences from an early ceasefire:
If Israel has not clearly demolished Hezbollah when this conflict ends and Bush/Condi cave on ceasefire (to avoid potential domestic political blowback from vetoing a France/Russia/China ceasefire proposal that Blair may have to go along with to stay in office), then Hezbollah will be viewed as the winner, will have the cover to silence its critics in Lebanon and the Axis will have become a much “stronger horse”, to use Bin Laden’s words, in the eyes of the Muslim world (most of whom lack the education for any sort of nuanced understanding of world politics, or, for that matter, beyond their immediate existence. Accordingly, Ahmadinejad, Assad, Nasrallah, etc. will be emboldened to take on riskier pursuits and will be in a much stronger position to draw others over to their side.
As further developed in that and a subsequent post, a cynic (realist?) would also be extremely wary of a potentially treacherous role to be played by France going forward.
Jamie, you're right--the Ash's of the world deserve a pat on the back for showing concern over the "next" life-or-death. The next after that, tho, ain't on their radar, no matter how many are all but certain to pile up.
I have long wondered about people like Ash who seem to regard it as somehow a great insight to point out that dividing a conflict into good and bad is somehow simplistic and therefore, ummm... bad. Wait a minute, that would be simplistic.
Of course it's easy to say that no side in a conflict is "all evil" or "all good." Of course its easy to realize that both sides can engage in bad behavior. I'm not sure why those who point this out feel that it's so incredibly significant.
The good/bad binary is probably a very simple construct in the brain, allowing us to filter the vast amount highly complex stuff in our world. It's very much correlated to the urgency of and the nature of the situation. If someone is trying to kill you, "me good, they bad" is a good conclusion to quickly come to. Whether or not you should put something on layaway may be a little more subtle because it's probably not as urgent. Plusses and minuses begin to appear.
Lastly, human beings are imperfect. No one or no collective will ever be absolutely good. However, it is prudent to regard those who want to kill you as evil, even if they might have good table manners.
It's always foolish to engage in a dialog with a fool.
How do the US & France expect a non-state, terrorist organization to respond to a call for cease fire - as if they feel they have some authority over the devil.
What they are calling for, in essence, is an Israeli cease fire. No other way to spin it.
I fully support reticence and due deliberation in the pursuit of this ceasefire.
All consideration must be paid to root causes, the culutres involved, and the past forty or fifty years of diplomatic maneuvering preceding these current events in Lebanon.
I think that fourteen months of U.N. debate ought to be appropriate; we might be ready by then to start crafting provisional drafts for consideration by then.
Any faster and we'd be guilty of "rushing", wouldn't we, and it's always important to take the necessary time to ensure that everyone's views are heard and weighed.
I'm sure Bolivia doesn't want to be left out of the loop.
Kill more, Israel. There will always be more, but the ones you kill today won't be there tomorrow. And who knows, maybe Syria or Iran will screw up and then we'll all be in the fight.
No wonder Bush and Bolton are going along with these discussions. Have you read Draft U.N. Resolution on War in Lebanon ?
OP3. Also reiterates its strong support for the territorial integrity, sovereignty and political independence of Lebanon within its internationally recognized borders, as contemplated by the Israeli-Lebanese General Armistice Agreement of 23 March 1949;
...
OP5. Emphasizes the importance of the extension of the control of the Government of Lebanon over all Lebanese territory in accordance with the provisions of resolution 1559 (2004) and resolution 1680 (2006), and of the relevant provisions of the Taif Accords, for it to exercise its full sovereignty and authority;
I say Hey! What are we fightin' for? Ain't no way in hell the Hez, Syria or Iran will agree to any of this for more than the few days it takes to get the Israelis to stop killing bad guys.
And now we go to the 15 member Security Council. Who is going to stand up for the Hez? O sure, they'll all "deplore the violence" and call for "protection of civilians and social order" but will they really try to defend the indefensible - these war crimes by the Hez of constantly attacking civilians indiscriminately? Probably not, but we have to assume the French, Russsians and Chinese will do all they can to undermine the West, just as they did before OIF.
------------
On the topic of domestic American politics, Bush clearly ran on "sticking to his guns" and he beat that lying fool Kerry by over 3 million votes. The Dems know that the American voters do not trust them with national defense, especially during war time, so their only chance of winning is to deny there is any war going on, except of course for that useless, futile, illegal, unilateral war on Iraq, which has no more to do with world politics than do all the blood drops in O.J.'s truck, driveway, socks, etc. have to do with anything. The jury said so.
Lately when my liberal friends insist that I should go to Iraq and fight the war, and bring my kids with me, if I support the war --- I tell them if they don't want to fight the war, then they should volunteer themselves and their families be the first to die in the next 9/11.
- - -
John Samford, the B-1 is far from obsolete. They are our leap-forward upgrade over the B-52, and they are the backbone of our conventional bomber fleet. We only built a total of 21 B-2's, the B-1 is our primary heavy bomber. (And they never use the Minuteman, and they demobilized the Peacekeepers years ago. arrgghh)
cedarford,
what zionist propoganda and myths would that entail? I'd love to hear your version of history, as fanciful as it may be.
In any event we're two days into my test and it looks like things are proceeding accordingly.
Israel has never been serious about this from day one and it's obvious that the untested leadership of Olmert, Peretz and Livni has failed miserably. They will all be gone by the end of the year. The positive to come from this is that Olmert's surrender plan is finished.
Israel has fought a war against Iran and Syria without laying so much as a feather on either of them.
They have 600,000+ troops when mobilized and the most they've had in Lebanon at any one time is from 5-10K. IOW, in this "war" that Israel has acknowledged is existential, they've committed 1-2% of their forces to fight it. Obviously any war where you commit 1-2% of your forces to fight is one you don't intend to win.
Israel should have responded to this from day one by taking down the Lebanese power grid, nuking the Dahiya and Harat Heik in S. Beirut, nuking Hermel and the Bekaa Valley and announcing for all to hear that if the two soldiers are not returned unharmed within 24 hours that the regime in Syria will cease to exist and that if they are subsequently not returned within another 24 hours the regime in Tehran will cease to exist.
All this is just for show.
According to:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=746668&contrassID=1&subContrassID=1
"...at this point Hezbollah's commitment is only to cease fire on Israel if Israel stops attacking targets in Lebanon, but it is not pledging not to fire at IDF troops inside Lebanon."
So Israel stops attacking Hezbullah but hezbullah will not stop attacking Israeli troops in Lebanon.
This does not sound like a workable cease fire.
"An alternative is to hit the power grid. No power, the 50,000 centrifuges don't spin, no nuclear weapons."
In just about every place in the world but Iraq, power plants are pretty easy to repair and build, constructed of largely commodity components, which any number of countries would be happy to supply in order to make sure their oil arrives.
"Lots of economic collateral damage, of course. Wonder what the effect of that would be on the population's enthusiam for Iran's weapons program ?"
What was the effect of 9/11 on the US population?
Some developments:
Tourism Minister Isaac Herzog called the Franco-American draft ceasefire plan "an important development" but said Israel would continue combat operations for the time being. (AP/Guardian)
For the time being.
In a related international development, Ayman al-Zawahri announced an Egyptian militant group Gamaa Islamiya, led by the younger brother of the militant who assassinated Egyptian President Anwar al-Sadat, has joined al-Qaida. (AP)
"What was the effect of 9/11 on the US population?"
---
Nobody can remember.
Can Oliver Stone Save us?
Perhaps the French/US proposal is the result of French finally deciding or being convinced to get some skin in the game. The French/US proposal could possibly be an entry for a NATO implementation. This is France's historic area of influence, it's time for them to get off the bench and onto the field. I'd imagine that if either France or US or NATO plan on leading the international force in that region, they'll want HB defanged as much as possible so they've made the deplomatic move to keep information flowing while Israel continues to work. This might be another 'face card' for us on the table. How's Iran's hand looking?
(this is an edited excerpt from a larger screed cross-posted at my own site.)
My frequently insightful brother made a statement today of unusual succinctness and clarity. 1) Europe in the middle ages was very much hobbled by its obstinate focus on the Bible. Medicine, literature, mathematics, astronomy, history... Every area of human concern was truncated and subordinated to Biblical-Spiritual-Christian doctrine.
2) The Islamic world is stuck in that mode now. Their society and religion are the legacy of many centuries in a harsh and demanding region of vast deserts, that rewarded the raider more than the builder or gardener. They suddenly find themselves rich beyond the dreams of most countries, from oil wealth that they did not themselves have the technology or inclination to develop. They have not experienced and have no respect for the long discipline by which western countries gradually and painfully arrived at their current level of industrial sophistication.
3) Without a deep comprehension of how their wealth came into their hands, they do not value the attitudes, disciplines, and skills that are necessary to develop and maintain technology, and nor do they grasp the intellectual freedom which derives from Greco-Roman and Judeo-Christian heritage that lead finally to the Renaissance.
Of course, it’s Culture not Biology.(Naturally, the Politically Correct Crowd will say that’s just as insulting.) In the Arab-Islamic world the word “sheik” is an honorific reserved for a male who has committed the text of the Qur’an to memory. Astricted by sacrosanct tradition to treat the rote memorization of its sacred text as the highest possible intellectual achievement, Islamic nations of the modern era reject as pointless or even subversive the diversion of their energy to the study of modern technologies and sciences.
Farouk El-Baz is a respected American scientist of Egyptian roots, who added his scientific and technological expertise for years to the Apollo Program. In the past he served as Anwar el-Sadat’s science advisor, and is a member of the National Academy of Engineering, and director of Boston U Center for Remote Sensing. He has written a few penetrating articles about the failures of the modern Islamic world, and the internal forces that have contributed.
A few excerpts from the website http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2004/710/feature.htm:
Although the Arab region is considered oil-rich and wealthy, all indications point to its knowledge deficit. This fact is clearly conveyed in the Arab Human Development Report: Building a Knowledge Society that was issued in 2003 by the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP). The report, which I helped to review prior to its publication, pointed out that the Arab region trails behind all other regions in knowledge indicators, except sub-Saharan Africa. These indicators included the number of books, newspapers, radio stations, television channels, telephone lines, personal computers and Internet access.
...
• The number of patents produced by Arabs is meager; during the past two decades, South Korea registered in the US over 44 times the number of patents from all Arab countries combined.
...
• ... the number of books translated in all 22 Arab countries is equal to one-fifth of those translated into Greek.
...
• Although Arabs constitute five per cent of the world population, they produce only 0.8 per cent of the literary and artistic literature.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Within the West, just as there is an intensifying co-dependency between the Elite Liberal-Socialist Leaders and their welfare-voting-block clients, there is at the higher level of transnational cultures, a similarly intensifying co-dependency between the Transnational Progressives (with all the baggage of Post-Modernist / Deconstructionist / Moral Relativist / Unresolved-White-Liberal-Guilt), and the radical Islamicist components of the Muslim world, cynically ready to accept support from even those they despise.
Socialist-Liberal-Progressives define deficiencies in their designated victim groups as having been caused by Western excesses, colonial depradations, racism, bigotry, capitalist greed, Christian chauvinism, et cetera. They refuse to acknowledge any internal basis for the madness of Islamic fanaticism. They ignore 14 centuries of Islamic Jihad, the conquest by military assault of much of the world (that Charles Martel and the Franks stopped in France in 732, and the defenders of Vienna successfully resisted in the 1680’s); they ignore the text of the Qur’an and the Hadith that call for the faithful to expand Islam to rule infidel lands.
As a Christian (however conflicted and confused!) I think it is vital to be fully informed about how Islamic regimes treat “infidels” among them.
It is vital to inform ourselves, to look at sources that challenge our assumptions, and to resist the acquiescence of the Transnational Progressives in the assault by Islamic Fascists on our civilization.
Fiddler:
Did you once say you took music lessons in Oxnard?
(Just Curious what you were doing way out there, if so.)
Never give politicians and diplomats a break. Graveyards are filled with their mistakes.
The same Churchill, who is praised for courage and fortitude in one context, was rightly excoriated for Gallipoli.
Mere mortals should take care at whose feet offerings are laid.
On that a He’brew is in order.
I wonder what will be the immediate impact of the nature of this fighting in military technical terms.
Missile defense now looks good to everyone except those three or four people who still think that Ronald Reagan was an idiot. Unguided short range rocket defense, such as that would have been made possible by the cancelled laser system (and thanks to the Belmont Club Crew for the update on that) now looks desirable as well. It does not even have to work 100% - war is primarily a psychological conflict and the knowledge that you can do more than sit there and pray is a valuable commodity.
Ironically, this is another case where we should have seen it coming. The MRLS system developed by the US and employed by the IDF is so much more capable than the rockets used by Hezbolah. MLRS even has the capability to "shoot and scoot" much better than Hezbolahs's systems. A digital link sends data to the crew, who drive to the specified location, push three buttons to close the blast shutters, elevate and point, and fire. The specified number of rockets are fired and then they get a new set or orders to scoot to somewhere else. The rockets have a 20 mile range and normally are armed with 844 anti-personnel bomblets.
The Air Force still wants to deploy conventionally armed Minuteman - and I suspect this will get a boost. The ability to drop a few on Syria or Iran and let them think about what it would be like if they had been nuclear warheads sounds good in theory.
Then there is the network-centric warfare techniques learned in Iraq. Applying them to Hezbolah in Lebanaon might yield interesting results.
achilles jones
re: "The next big bombs must be political ones in Israel."
You may have found the best explanation yet for why Hezbollah has not launched its heavy long-range missiles against Tel Aviv and points south. If and when they so do, Mr. Olmert's government will be proved hopelessly inept. Of course, a cease-fire now would save both Hezbollah and the Olmert government.
Why would either side complain?
The sun'll come out
Tomorrow
So ya gotta hang on
'Til tomorrow
Come what may
Tomorrow! Tomorrow!
I love ya Tomorrow!
You're always
A day
A way!
Sarah wrote:
Israel should have responded to this from day one by taking down the Lebanese power grid, nuking the Dahiya and Harat Heik in S. Beirut, nuking Hermel and the Bekaa Valley and announcing for all to hear that if the two soldiers are not returned unharmed within 24 hours that the regime in Syria will cease to exist and that if they are subsequently not returned within another 24 hours the regime in Tehran will cease to exist.
Believe it or not, there are other great powers with nuclear weapons that wouldn't take kindly to the first use of atomics since 1945 over a kidnapping (I'm thinking Russia, which might feel threatened by Israel tossing those things around), and if the Jews did that, Israel would cease to exist. It would only take about 10 H-bombs, tops.
Teresita,
Yeah, I was a little taken aback by that comment.
Doug,
Violin lessons from Betty Dayton 1958 to 63. Dad tasked to Pacific Missile Range.
Heraclitus,
"Air power and economic sanctions have no chance of either stopping nor slowing down a potential Iranian drive toward nuclear capability"
That's completely wrong. Airpower w/conventional weapons would be able to completely stop Iran's nuke program, if we were willing to use it.
Heraclitus,
"Look at it this way, if you put 75 million Americans in a country the size of Iran, do you think a foreign power could keep them from making nukes while being hammered by conventional air power."
Absolutely. The question is whether we would be willing to put the effort into doing it.
In the immortal words of the chubby guy on Cheers, "Women, can't live WITH 'em, can't live with 'em.
:-D
well, *that* can't be outquipped--wins on brevity--
:(
sarahweddington,
By all means, continue what you are doing.
Even when I disagree, you force me to take a nanosecond to THINK about why.
Thanks!
For whatever it is worth, consider the words of the great Franklin, "The sting of insult is truth."
Sort of cleaning up the place before the company arrives. I believe that, too. Cover that flank in case Iran is next, regardless of who starts it up. Limited objective, prepping the bigger fish which will likely need frying.
Don't be fooled by the MSM blackout curtain, northeastoxymoron, you long-named son of a gun, you.
I do believe you're right--what a idiot I is, to cornfuse Norm and Al, two of our great subversives!
I'd love to hear Cedarford's version of ME history. Lay out for me the true history of the ME, the one untainted by "zionist" propoganda, as you term it. I'm sure you can do it in a paragraph or so.
I'd suspect that according to him the "Zionists" are the evil colonial occupiers who've plotted to destroy the ME and kill all the arabs and muslims and take their land. That everything is their fault.
His history, like that of John Pilger, Chris HitchEns(if you want people to take you seriously, Cedarford, learn to spell people's names correctly), Robert Fisk et al is nothing but antisemitism mixed with a leftist/socialist ideology that resents Israel for its relationship with America, its success, and for the fact that despite all their best efforts and their unrelenting attempts, the Jews are still there 58 years on.
Cedarford has his champion in Ahmadinejad and his minions who are preparing the Endlossung that the Fuhrer was unable to complete, and the event that will finally leave the ME judenrein as the hundreds of milions of arabs and muslims have yearned for it to be ever since May 14, 1948.
I however, like many others I suspect, have recognized his act for what it is and will call him on it.
Since they're from Iran, they oughtta be called "pissedoffios".
sarahweddington,
"Cedarford, learn to spell people's names correctly"
Please, don't go there. You can have this guy's lunch without going there.
i just found his cristopher hitchins interesting when he claims to have the truth about. what's the big deal about pointing it out?
sarahweddington,
re: big deal
To err is human.
This site benefits from all opinions, warts and all.
Also, I'm just protecting myself. A Margarita here, a Margarita there, soon enough it’s the dog's hair.
Hitchens is simple: Hitchens was a fellow traveler, who has seen the light, sometimes. Oh, and Hitchens, his magnificent accomplishments notwithstanding, has feet of clay.
Israel is not perfect. The question is, "Is Israel less perfect than the Arab/Islamofascist alternative?" Cedarford might choose not to address that particular query - doesn't fit the Zionist/Elders model.
i thus apologize for my spelling comment. no offense was intended.
i do look forward to his history lesson.
i've found though, that debating middle east history is pointless. people have their views and they won't change. it's like arguing about abortion. there's really no point.
I'm just curious to see what his version of events is, that's all. I'd like to know more about where he's coming from
Sarah, that great big bubbling pot o' facts sure enough does give some folks the "analysis paralysis".
Sure, one can delve back into the history of Israel and say the King David Hotel equals the WTC and so a pox on all houses.
Problem is, it ignores the meta-truth that one side of this fight is people who respect virtue and love their children, and the other side wrecks their children and holds to no virtue but killing your ass.
Maybe the time has come to pick a side, since not to do so is to sit on the fence nursing your complex analyses and hoping to be saved by the "simplistic" people.
The Walrus and the Carpenter
Were walking close at hand;
They wept like anything to see
Such quantities of sand:
"If this were only cleared away,"
They said, "it would be grand!"
"If seven maids with seven mops
Swept it for half a year.
Do you suppose," the Walrus said,
"That they could get it clear?"
"I doubt it," said the Carpenter,
And shed a bitter tear.
It's jabberwocky, alright, and it's here.
Attempting to nudge this thread away from the vicissitudes of spelling, hormones, and nuclear winter and back toward the post topic ...
Ain't no way in hell the Hez, Syria or Iran will agree to any of this for more than the few days it takes to get the Israelis to stop killing bad guys.
Lebanon's sounding like they're not going to agree to it, either. Yes, after spending the past three weeks rending their garments and flinging ashes over their heads, wailing for a ceasefire, they're offered a bright, shiny UN one. And their response is along the lines of wrinkling their nose and saying "Don't you have it in blue?"
I'm normally a patient, calm, compassionate person, but I'm sliding toward "Taste of Armageddon" mode here. Along with the corruption, rape, incompetence, racism, and other glaring malfeasance, the UN has this to answer for. Too many people in the Middle East are woefully and fatally ignorant of the concept of vae victis.
cedarford,
re: "ex-Stalinists who moved to Israel"
Who were these ex-Stalinist propagandists? Note, I make the distinction in this instance, as did Khrushchev, between Communism and Stalinism.
Examining first causes from the perspective of the "Other", did the United States bring on itself 9-11?
It seems to me that following your advice to whit, this must be the case, unless you are being inconsistent.
Well, if we're gonna cherry-pick history for items to use against Israel, I pity the American settlers, who by the same standards would, on the basis of our treatment of Amerindians and African captives, now have to capitulate to the clear and present danger, would now have to submit to the moon-god, whose depredations are forever holy.
Nobody is "clean" -- the question is, which side is trying to climb out of the abyss, and which side is trying to throw us back into it. The question is which side are you on?
whit & buddy,
In my reading of Cedarford, I see someone who would be wholly with the good-guys if it weren't for those irritating Jews.
Factor out the Jews from the Western equation and Cedarford might be a reliable ally.
Or just stay with the logic and factor out the west from the western equation.
Then the equation would be less confusing.
catherine said:
Some of us wimmenfolk may completely agree with you on policy particulars, but if you bring hormones into it, then it's a female's duty to inform you that men also have hormonal "swings" and go through menopause.
Also known as "Men! Oh Please!"
lone star said:
As I said in my first post, this is all part of "prepping the battlefield" for the coming battle with Iran. This step will eliminate Hezbollah's ability to help Iran.
The problem with "prepping the battlefield" and all other forms of set-piece warfare is that you give away to the enemy where you intend to give battle. Much better to move around and around until the birds get dizzy, and then strike where the enemy least expects you. If I were Xena and in charge of the IDF I'd abandon operations in the "buffer zone" and let the country take the hits from the deadly but militarily ineffectual short-range rockets, building up "victim equity" with world opinion while most of Hez occupies themselves with hiding out and launching them. Then I'd hang a quick right turn on the road that's supplying the rockets from Syria, and actually go into Syria, covering one flank from the Golan Heights and the other with air cover. The boots on the ground would interdict the trucks carrying rockets, and I'd have half my F-16s and all my remote-control planes orbit over southern Lebanon to conduct immediate retaliatory strikes after each launch, hoping to get the launchers and the crew. Only after the US got an agreement on the diplomatic front would I consent to leave the highway in Syria. If it was a damn good agreement I might even leave Lebanon.
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