Humanitarianism in Asymmetric Warfare
Lively discussion in comments about the shootings in Seattle, Israel's strategy, the Bush-Blair refusal to set a ceasefire declaring an opportunity for a better Middle East and more ... An example -- BTW, all the victims of the Seattle shooting were women, one of whom was pregnant. So now the post comes full circle. It was originally about humanitarianism and war crimes in asymmetric war. Question: was the perp a combatant or a criminal? Question: did he commit a war crime?
Haaretz reports that:
The UN humanitarian chief called Friday for a three-day truce between Israel and Hezbollah to evacuate trapped civilians and replenish supplies to areas cut off by the fighting. Jan Egeland told reporters that thousands of children, elderly and disabled had been stranded after more than two weeks of war, while supplies of food and medicines are dwindling. He said he hoped the three-day pause could be the start of a larger cessation of hostilities between the two sides.
"Evacuate trapped civilians and replenish supplies to areas cut off by the fighting". In order to make this a legitimate humanitarian mission and not a resupply run for the Hezbollah and an escape route for its fighters the following ideas suggest themselves.
- All children, elderly men, women and identifiable noncombatants should be given safe passage out of the area after passing a security checkpoint to be jointly manned by the UNIFIL and the IDF. Any individual who is suspected of being a combatant can be placed in joint custody and removed to a detention facility inspected by the Red Cross or some similar institution. He will remain there until his any doubts over his status can be resolved.
- The UN should establish a refugee processing camp on the cleared side of the security checkpoint where food, water, medical attention etc can be provided to whoever needs it. It should be the policy of the UN to temporarily evacuate the combat zone to prevent further loss of life, in accordance with the principle that populations should be removed from the path of natural or manmade disasters whenever possible and returned only when it is safe.
Otherwise Egeland's proposal will amount to nothing more than a resupply effort for Hezbollah, which can appropriate whatever supplies it wants at gunpoint from civilians, and an invitation to a humanitarian disaster. Neither taking sides in a conflict nor endangering noncombatants is a proper activity for a relief organization. Right now the combat zone is probably littered with unexploded ordnance, hazardous material and other perils. It would be improper for any humanitarian agency to encourage continued civilian presence in an area which is manifestly unsafe, environmentally dangerous and rife with traumatizing experiences for children. The population can be returned to their homes when the fighting stops but that can only be meaningful if they keep their lives.
Although it must surely have been the furthest thing from Egeland's mind, his proposal might be misunderstood by suspicious minds as a desire to keep the Hezbollah's human shield defenses in good working order. And since this is surely not the case and since the laws of war require that noncombatants should be accorded the requisite protections, there can be no objection to evacuating the embattled areas of every civilian. Any property loss can later be the subject of claims. Perhaps these details have already been worked out by the UN. If so these suggestions are redundant.
Update
The Saudi Press Agency releases a statement apparently warning Israel of dire consequences unless it stops operations in Lebanon. "The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia calls on all to act in accordance with honest, conscious and international moral and humanitarian laws. It also warns all that if the peace option is rejected due to the Israeli arrogance then only the war option remains and no one knows the repercussions befalling the region, including wars and conflict that will spare no one including those whose military power is now tempting them to play with fire." It's a full court press now. Kesher Talk thinks that Olmert is hesitating -- with very serious results -- in his prosecution of the war against Hezbollah: using too much air, using too little ground. Too limited in his objectives. Politically Israel has reached a crisis. Set against this are signals that the Hezbollah may be hurting physically, with Nasrallah reported holed up, looking for resupply, etc. Both in 1967 and 1973 the calls for a ceasefire increased in proportion to the distress of the Arab armies. But also, and this should be remembered, once early in the 1973 war when they sought to freeze their gains in the belief that they had been winning up to that point.
But in breaking news, both Tony Blair and George Bush have laid out what they expect to emerge from this crisis. President Bush and Tony Blair rejected calls for an immediate cease-fire in Lebanon. Bush said "This is a moment of intense conflict in the Middle East, yet our aim is to turn it into a moment of opportunity and a chance for a broader change in the region". Broader change implies a re-architecturing of the status quo. What this means in actual terms will be seen in the coming days.
posted by wretchardthecat at 7/28/2006 03:07:00 PM
279 Comments:
Hewitt reports Rockets w/larger payloads coming in.
Report by yoni in ten minutes.
http://www2.krla870.com/listen/
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Another Nice Compliment and recommendation for Wretchard's work.
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Seems like Tony could have refered more to destruction in Israel.
Two other suggestions.
1) The UN should join Israel in its fight to rid the region of terrorists.
2) The UN should start arming the Druze, Sunni, and Christian malitias of Lebanon.
I know the UN would never do either of those, but as long as were assuming the UN is acting on good faith...
If I were Israel I'd seriously consider getting Egeland to evacuate the towns, subject to the checkpoints. It's militarily advantageous to Israel for know that after the evacuation the area is a combatants only area. No more fire restrictions.
It's militarily disadvantageous for Hezbollah to evacuate noncombatants. Allowing this transforms their base into a traditional battlefield where heavy weapons rule and precision is no longer required.
And from the UN's point of view they would be doing what they claim they are interested in doing, which is protecting the innocents, not as may be consequent to "resupplying", leaving and even encouraging them to stay in harm's way.
But here's what I think will happen. The IDF will opt to preserve tempo rather than gain the advantage of a clear battlefield. Egeland will express horror at the interposition of any security checkpoints as violations of privacy, whatever. Even in the event that the ceasefire is granted and UN columns roll in, the Hez may prevent the population from leaving. And the carnage will continue. Makes you lose your faith in human nature.
Yoni's new blog:
http://www.yonitheblogger.com/
Pictures of the new, larger SYRIAN missile in Israel.
Says war could happen with a misstep, and Syria would be easier to deal with than the Hezzies.
I agree.
“The UN humanitarian chief called Friday for a three-day truce between Israel and Hezbollah to evacuate trapped civilians and replenish supplies to areas cut off by the fighting.”
Jeesh, the UN is now openly supplying Hezbollah?
What about the fact that HB was themselves blocking fleeing non-combatants? How will a ceasefire be enforced. HB will be readjusting their jockstraps and re-supplying their dwindling armaments.
mrs. davis,
There is a lot of worry among some Israeli analysts that the IDF has not used anything like the requisite force against Hezbollah that it should, in particular overly relying on airpower and underutilizing ground maneuver. Olmert's "First Fallujah" moment.
What we are watching is either one of the best psychological operations in military history, or one of the worst flops imaginable.
Krauthammer observes a tremor of doubt in Israel's seemingly fractured high command, and says "The fact we even know about it and are talking about it in public means the Israelis are in serious disarray." He doesn't ponder on how or why such information slipped passed a robust Israeli censoring program.
Bush and Blair call for a ceasefire, but then proceed to define it almost out of existence, making it conditional on Hezbollah's participation in its own disarmament. And yet Rice is on her way back to the Middle East to find another roadmap to peace.
The Israeli Cabinet meets in an emergency session, where they allegedly decide not to extend ground operations in Southern Lebanon. At the same time, 3 divisions of reservists are called to the front.
Israeli officials acknowledge that Hezbollah cannot be defeated from the air, then vow to step up the air campaign while playing down any possibility of an invasion.
Everyone seems to have decided that Israel is going to settle for a political solution instead of a military one. All agree on the unlikeliness of a large invasion. And yet Israel says the Rome statement gives them the "green light" to do the heavy lifting needed to disarm Hezbollah.
If Israel blinks and Hezbollah is not smashed, Israel loses. Everyone seems to know this. Fred Barnes, William Kristol, Henry Kissinger, Charles Krauthammer, David Frum, Daniel Pipes -- they all agree that Israel is in an existential fight and must succeed. They all agree that a Hezbollah merely bruised is a Hezbollah victorious. And they all seem to be losing faith in Olmert's leadership.
And yet Netanyahu, the champion of Israel's hawkish right, remains in solidarity with Olmert's Administration.
The tea leaves have never been more opaque.
The terms 'UN' and 'good faith' are mutually exclusive.
1) Ain't ever gonna happen.
2) Would just lead to civil war. Which might be useful from the brutally pragmatic viewpoint of 'as long as they're killing each other, they're leaving the Israelis alone,' but Syria would just annex the place. Again.
Absent flat out declaring southern Lebanon as a separate country from Lebanon and dealing with it on that basis, there are several things that need to happen to resolve this situation and keep it resolved.
Hezballah's military power must be ended. It's plain to all but the die-hard fluffy-bunny dreamers that no amount of negotiation will get them to lay down their arms. It can come via being humiliated by the IDF, being crushed by a multinational force, being trampled to death by Santa and all his reindeer, whatever. Their actual physical stranglehold must be broken. They'll keep trying to get back up, so somebody has to put a boot on their collective neck and keep it there.
Meanwhile, the Lebanese military needs to be completely revamped into an actual professional national military and not what it is right now -- a bunch of guys who all happen to wear the same uniform. This is what we've spent the last three years in Iraq doing with, from what I gather from various milblogs, a fair amount of success. Of course there, we could and did simply sweep the whole rotten construct away and rebuild it from the ground up. Getting that drastic is probably not an option in Lebanon, but some serious remodeling needs to be done there. Once they're up and running, they can take over the boot-on-the-neck job.
Meeting the social services needs of the south must be taken over by the central government. In large part, the Shiites who predominate there turned to Hez because they were treated like a red-headed stepchild with no place in the Lebanon family.
It will take years, even generations, to break tribalism's hold in the Middle East. The best we can do in the short term is everything in our power to get the Lebanese to see themselves as the Lebanon tribe. I don't know if it can be done, but the Cedar Revolution gives me hope.
The German Amnesty International Solution(Deutsche Welle):
German AI Head Wants Fact-Finding Mission in Lebanon
Israeli soldiers fire at targets in southern Lebanon
With fighting between Israel and Hezbollah now into its third week, the head of Amnesty International's German branch said her organization wants to send a commission to Lebanon to investigate possible war crimes.
Amnesty International would like to investigate possible war crimes, said Barbara Lochbihler, general secretary of the German branch of the human rights organization.
"We cannot just protest these killings,'' Lochbihler told DW-RADIO. ''We also see that the international community itself needs to establish, for example, an international fact-finding mission under the protocol of the Geneva Convention to investigate these attacks to see if they amount to war crimes."
Obviously the Jewish Lobby has been slacking off in Germany. And the diplomatic genius of the Bush Administration continues to blind. Maybe we can sub-contract AI to investigate crimes against diplomacy, history and common sense.
I have been there so take this for what it's worth.
I pity the poor innocent souls that now occupy S. Lebanon, though I think their numbers are few. Any sane man would have seen the handwriting on the wall and removed his family years ago when the Hezzies were digging in. They had to know this was coming.
I say sane man. This would exclude any Hez sympathizers & I think within this category lie most of the "civilian" population in S.Lebanon. Why would they be there otherwise? They have chosen to side with the devil. If they are killed they cannot be listed as civilians. They are aiding the enemy combatants.
Furthermore, the blame for the deaths of these rests squarely upon the heads of Nasty Naz & Hezbollah. Particularly if they are limiting movement of those that try to flee. They have brought the carnage of war upon the locals.
Yet the nightly MSM news and BBC reports only harp about the Israeli response. Actually, they have dropped that term altogether. They have chosen to exclude it from their lexicon & bury it from their minds.
I don't count on the UN or the Lebanese gov't agreeing to IDF/UN manned checkpoints. Shows them as siding with Israel - although it makes sense for the good guys.
Makes me wonder if the UN, the EU & the larger Islamic world will ever come to realize the suicidal nature of their worldview.
Hmmm. This reminds me of Paris, 2003, with some 15,000 old people dying of heat stroke while their "loved ones" partied in the cool airconditioned south.
Isn't Lebanon part of grand the French colonial tradition???
Aristides, re the 3 divisions, news is that only the commanding officers are being called up.
Doug,
How did you find Hewitt? I haven't been able to access his blog for weeks, over there at town hall. Do you have a secret password? Can I borrow it?
Gerry
That Townhall thing is a mess.
redaktør,
One of the cardinal rules is never to give a command that you know cannot be carried out. As you note, the implication of the political rules is that Israel should stop operations against the Hez now -- just now when Fajr-5 rockets have landed in Israel.
This creates a tremendous tension between operational necessity and the political diktat. Back in 1973 Sharon actually won the war in the Sinai by being insubordinate, for which he was investigated after war. Today that is probably impossible. But the tensions in the IDF can be gauged from the fact that General Halutz had to have a checkup for exhaustion. The last time that happened, I think, was to Yitzak Rabin during the Six Day war when Leah Rabin personally had him dragged out of the command post before he dropped dead.
My only comment is that in any contest between political diktat and survival, if the urgency is great enough, survival always wins. It is better to be judged by 12 than carried by six.
Globalsecurity seems to indicate that Syria has the SCUD B/C/D families in inventory, with variants of each, and their army equipment indicates FROG-7 and the aforementioned SCUD family. As these are TEL transported, somewhat large missiles it is possible that Syria is *giving* these to Hezbollah, but they are pretty conspicuous, and the TEL had better exit the firing are very quickly with the IAF around.
The Missile Page indicates the CSS-6, NoDong, and SCUD B/C/ER all sold to Syria in the 1990's, which fits.
Will have to wait for better reports to see if what hit was a Kyatusha variant or one of these much larger missiles. If it is one of these, the damage and report from IAF will be the clincher. Hard launch pads are not easily hidden... the TELs moreso, but the launching area, unless it is from *inside* Syria, is highly restricted. Lebanon is not a huge country.
redaktør,
I don't think it is a false dichotomy so much as the heart of the problem. The political prescription prevents an Israeli military victory, which is what it needs. The dilemma facing Israel is whether it needs the military victory more than political legitimacy. But the contradiction and tension is there for all to see.
Olmert ought not to have begun the war if he will be forced to accept a status quo ante. I don't know how it will play out, but there tension is definitely there.
Aristides said... What we are watching is either one of the best psychological operations in military history, or one of the worst flops imaginable.
No kidding. Add to that Nasrallah who, after watching Israel's reaction to the kidnapping of a soldier in the Gaza, claimed that he was surprised by Israel's reaction. It is just bizarre.
I'm beginning to wonder about that August 22nd date. Is some bait not being snapped at?
How absurd. What kind of horse shit is this? A military victory is never irrelevent, because from that flows the diplomacy and and who calls the shots. This is an absurd argument. Olmert needs to sieze the moment, if Israel has the right stuff. I am not sure, but if they do not we all can be sure that it will be a very black day for all of us. God almighty, what the hell is going on?
Military victory is never irrelevant. If it were no one would seek it, least of all the Hezbollah. Nasser, Khadaffy, Saddam, Arafat, Osama, Zarqawi were each in their turn lions of the Arab street. But they were forgotten, even subsequently reviled, because they failed to produce victory.
The Arabs have tasted military defeat too often. They are admirable in this: they steadfastly refuse to accept any defeat as final. They are able to lose nearly everything and still hope for victory. Eventual victory at least. In contrast, the Western media will see 9 Israelis killed and say "see? They are defeated". Some Israelis would probably accept defeat as well. But there is a hard core who will never give up, as some of their predecesors refused to give up, even when the Roman legionaries could be heard talking outside the final redoubt. And that is true too. For some cultures, victory and defeat is an illusion. For others it marks the beginning and end of their world.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Windows open, windows close.
HB was low hanging fruit, that looked like easy pickin's. The Israeli did not believe US propaganda, blaming Syria. Would not engage their Enemy's conventional force. Doc Assad's eyesight must be alright, he saw right through the Israeli.
So far the IDF has killed, perhaps, 300 HB combatants, triple or quadruple that number and it'd still not be enough by half to justify this showcasing of the lack of resolve by Israel... and extention US.
It's not, On to Damascus!
but, Back to Barak!
Everytime some Event casts a pall upon Israel, Bibi's name is both whispered or shouted, in the Ministries and from the hilltops.
His time has returned, well now, has it? Like the Phoenix from the ashes, but that's not a Jewish myth.
The political prescription does not prevent an Israeli military victory; it just makes that military victory irrelevant, and thereby, Israeli efforts to attain that military victory absolutely pointless.
Doesn't matter what the politicians prescribe if they don't open up the pharmacy. A tactical victory would certainly be a Pyrrhic victory for the Israelis, politcally and, it could be argued, militarily. But a strategic victory is not entirely out of the question; this would certianly not be pointless, it should be a fait accompli (although I suppose that would require a NATO 'peacekeeping' force to interdict Syria).
This just in:
President Bush and Tony Blair rejected calls for an immediate cease-fire in Lebanon. Bush said "This is a moment of intense conflict in the Middle East, yet our aim is to turn it into a moment of opportunity and a chance for a broader change in the region"
What do you make of that?
Israel can have only one objective. It certainly is not about two corporals. Attack Israel and you will be the recipient of Hell. That is clear. To date, that has not happened. It better, and soon.
My meter ran out. Someone help me.
I'm glad to hear 'Tater is a prudent possum speculator.
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NY Times has a series of ROP protest pictures from around the world:
These Peace Activists in Karachi were helping to motivate our neighbors in Seattle.
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1 killed, 4 wounded in Seattle Jewish center shooting
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Police have NO idea yet the possible motive of this man from Pakistan and his friends that got away.
Probly a bunch of blonde old ladies.
You guys have probably heard that a man identifying himself as a Muslim-American shot up a Jewish center in Seattle, killing one, citing his rage over Lebanon as justification.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/279302_shooting28ww.html
"HB was low hanging fruit, that looked like easy pickin's"
Jesus H Christ, rat, HB was amping up the rocketing and murdering and kidnapping. Did you forget that? How does that low-hanging fruit theme even begin to apply? An IDF adventure--that's the enemy claim.
Hugh Can Hopefully be found here.
Radioblogger has a new Steyn Transcript and mp3 here.
Yoni's new Non Townhall Blog Here
KRLA Conservative Talk Here
So far it does not seem that Hezbollah is either impressed or intimidated. A chilling read.
As the shells fall around them, Hizbullah men await the Israelis
Ghaith Abdul-Ahad, south of Tyre
Saturday July 29, 2006
The Guardian
Inside a well-furnished apartment in a village on the outskirts of Tyre, with shelves of books piled from floor to ceiling, a black turbaned cleric and three men sit sipping bitter coffee. By the door is a pile of Kalashnikovs and ammunition boxes; handguns are tucked into the men's trousers. The four are Hizbullah fighters, waiting for the Israelis.
"Patience is our main virtue, we can wait for days, weeks, months before we attack. The Israelis are always impatient in battle and in strategy," says the cleric, Sayed Ali, who claims to be a descendant of the prophet. "I know them very well."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/syria/story/0,,1832931,00.html
wretchard
We have to go with the facts on the ground. The affect of the air strikes and 20,000+ artillery rounds is unknown. What we do know is that Hizu'allh continues to fire a substantial number of rockets into Israeli population centers.
The IDF has been made irrelevant by the Israeli political leadership. Why this is so is incomprehensible. If somebody told you that Hizu'allah would fire 1,500+ rockets into Israel's cities while part of the IDF remained on the Israeli side of the border, and the other went about their daily business in Tel Aviv, you would have told him he was insane.
I think that the only honorable course of action remaining for Olmert and the cabinet are to resign and slit their wrists.
bobal,
Should I repost that nasty looking commie babe that yelled at Maliki?
I think I should be deputized to deprogram/deterrorize her using the Nitrous Oxide Detoxification Pressure Pleasure Chamber method.
I thought it was signifcant that Bush was shifting the heat back onto Iran, rather than blaming Syrian machinations to "get back into Lebanon" as he ad-libbed last week. An impressive press conference for Bush imo.
He only misspoke (I hope) the once:
Q: Thank you. Mr. President, and Prime Minister Blair, can I ask you both tonight what your messages are for the governments of Iran and Syria, given that you say this is the crisis of the 21st century?
PRESIDENT BUSH: Want me to start? My message is, give up your nuclear weapon and your nuclear weapon ambitions. That's my message to Syria -- I mean, to Iran.
I wasn't expecting to see that recorded verbatim in the WH transcript....
"that's the enemy claim. "
6:25 PM
Well, duh!
You've been gone a while eh?
Three cheers for Bush & Blair for sticking to their guns.
I can just hear the BBC crowd screaming for ICC action.
BTW: My 4:45 post... I have NOT been there....
No amount of spellcheck will correct that big-a fubar.
My apologies to the B-Clubbers & host.
habu: Bet ole p-tater went scramblin fer his hole when he heard there was a wiccan patrollin these parts. Figured he wuz too young to give up eyeballs & spleen for some outdoor say-once.
I would much rather POTUS DO something in Damascus, than SAY something to Tehran.
Eric Hoffer wrote:
The assertion that a mass movement cannot be stopped by force is not literally true. Force can stop and crush even the most vigorous movement. But to do so the force must be ruthless and persistent. And here is where faith enters as an indispensable factor. For a persecution that is ruthless and persistent can come only from fanatical conviction. 'Any violence which does not spring from a firm, spiritual base, will be wavering and uncertain. It lacks the stability which can only rest in a fanatical outlook.'.
From where can this "firm, spiritual" dedication of violence arise?
If one were to ask Hobbes, he would suggest the fear of violent death. If one queried Melville, he would speak of those "more spiritual terrors, that sometimes menace you from the concentrating brow of an enraged and mighty man." It is unlikely that mere rational interest can inspire such fanatical violence. One's fear or hatred must be peaked if one is to beat down a movement with death and destruction. Once you start down that road, one must continue to the end, or the movement strengthens (Nietzsche: "Spirit and strength are restored by wounding;" Machiavelli: "Enemies are to be appeased or destroyed"). Once uncertainty and doubt set in, compromise is sure to follow.
Radical Islam in macrocosm, and Hezbollah in microcosm, is not a set of interests to be balanced. It is a fanatical movement pursuing a radical agenda, and it will not compromise. It thrives on strife, and is endangered by calm. Like the shark, if it's not moving forward, it is dying.
I hear many analysts talk of Israel having "sent a message" to Hezbollah, and that henceforth Hezbollah will be deterred from pursuing future rash actions. But deterrence is a tricky concept, and a poor strategy.
Philip Bobbitt, in his book Shield of Achilles, writes:
As a strategy, deterrence makes most sense in the extreme case of nuclear deterrence, where the interest of the state in simple survival intersects the clarity of the danger of annihilation. Deterrence is more problematic, however, when the calculations on which it relies become more complex, or when these calculations are clouded by cultural differences and varying attitudes toward risk...
The "love of death" is, obviously, a varying attitude towards risk, yet many propose deterrence towards those who espouse it. That is not a strategy for success.
So long as Hezbollah remains a movement, it will be a danger to Israel and the rest of the world. If it is not dismantled, then five, ten, or twenty years from now it will be able to fulfill its charter. Worse for us, if it is seen to be victorious in the present conflict, the wider movement whose honor Hezbollah carries will be reinvigorated, and therefore much more dangerous.
Israel is a small place. It will not survive the era of proliferation unless it can pull itself together, and get fanatical. But this is about more than Israel. If Olmert is about to throw in the towel, God help us.
She was interviewed just now by Laura Ingraham on Fox. She is a full-blown nutjob, could not even hear LI's questions about whether the war had freed Afghan & Iraqi women. No connections among her points--none. Atomized universe. All events particulate matter floating around in the air.
6:24 PM Rufus, re Bebe:
According to Yoni, that's SOP in Israel.
Whata concept, glad we do the opposite! not
Yoni chooses to break the rule.
My tastes get stranger as I get older.
Maybe just so long away from anything strange?
I meant the Code Pink ("Code Pank" in local patois) critter referred to by Doug. Sorry.
Something bit my upper lip last night (I guess) - still swelling, deciding whether to see doc.
Look like a Tutsi Warrior or something.
Not responsible for anything posted in the last 12 hours.
Out.
Bolton laid out our objectives yesterday, and Bush did today. We want Hezbollah disarmed, and Lebanon to extend democratic control over all of its terrority.
It's very Eastern to acknowledge in "crisis" not just danger, but also opportunity. Whether it turns out to have been one or the other will depend on a single binary decision, made in the halls of Israeli power.
Of course, it did occur to me that having an international professional military acting as a buffer zone between Israel and Hezbollah would at least complicate Iran's ability to retaliate in the Levant. But I don't think it will complicate it enough to be an alternative to the neutering of Hezbollah.
Re Seattle shooting, Is anyone surprised to see this thing break out into violence stateside? Seattle--that's where the code pank lady is from. Also the WTO riots a few years ago. Ach--a cold-weather hotbed of violent peace.
BTW, all the victims of the Seattle shooting were women, one of whom was pregnant. So now the post comes full circle. It was originally about humanitarianism and war crimes in asymmetric war. Question: is he a combatant or a criminal? Question: did he commit a war crime?
PRESIDENT BUSH: Want me to start? My message is, give up your nuclear weapon and your nuclear weapon ambitions.
The more I think about it, the less that looks like a mistake. If Iran have indeed acquired a weapon to tide them over, then this could have been a heads-up to Tehran that US have seen their hole-card... [/removes tinfoil hat]
Habu and Doug,
On the last thread, at 6:05 PM, I left behind the following [speculative] observation on P-tater:
Habu_3 wrote:
...That's when the 'tude started ..now he's entered a pensive Socratic zone. Lord knows, everything now is part Hegel presented with the Socratic "questions asked leads to self awareness and deeper thought"
When he gets too bad I slip some moonshine in his water hole...but the law of unintended consequences set in...
No doubt resulting in his singing at the top of his lungs something like this:
Immanuel Kant was a real pissant
Who was very rarely stable,
Heidegger, Heidegger was a boozy beggar
Who could think you under the table,
David Hume could out-consume
Wilhelm Freidrich Hegel,
And Wittgenstein was a beery swine,
Who was just as schloshed as Schlegel...
[Oooo...]
[Adagio ma non troppo]
There's nothing Nietzche couldn't teach ya
'Bout the raising of the wrist;
Socrates, himself, was permanently pissed!
John Stuart Mill, of his own free will
On half a pint of shandy was particularly ill!
[Now con brio]
Plato, they say, could stick it away:
Half a crate of whiskey every day!
Aristotle, Aristotle was a bugger for the bottle;
Hobbes was fond of his dram--
And René Descartes was a drunken fart
I drink, therefore I am!
Yes, Socrates, himself, is particularly missed:
A lovely little thinker
But a bugger when he's pissed!
Jamie Irons
wretchard wrote:
BTW, all the victims of the Seattle shooting were women, one of whom was pregnant. So now the post comes full circle. It was originally about humanitarianism and war crimes in asymmetric war. Question: is he a combatant or a criminal? Question: did he commit a war crime?
The shooter was a Pakistani man from Pasco, Washinton (according to the live radio reports I'm getting up here in the Seattle area). The FBI is involved. One dead, five wounded (three critically, maybe more deaths to come, God forbid). At a minimum, it's a hate crime. It could be prosecuted as one of the first actual acts of terrorism in the US since 9-11.
Wonder what the code panl lady will say about two women--one pregnant--getting shot by a terrorist? Uhh, actually, I don't wonder--I already know. The far left feels no humanity for certain categories of victims. What a total inversion of reality we are seeing.
teresita, could you let us know in a day or two how the local press is reacting?
editorially, I mean?
Vis-a-vis the following Wretchard snip, I remember meeting an old Jewish guy on a commercial flight in the early 80's, and he says back in that war, the Israelis "had a switch to turn off the other planes."
"The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia calls on all to act in accordance with honest, conscious and international moral and humanitarian laws. It also warns all that if the peace option is rejected due to the Israeli arrogance then only the war option remains and no one knows the repercussions befalling the region, including wars and conflict that will spare no one including those whose military power is now tempting them to play with fire."
The Saudis have not only the undefeated F-15, they also have our AWACS and AMRAAM. Just like Israel, we sold them our best stuff.
Anyone think we have a magic switch to turn it off?
And if we don't have the Global Peace switch to turn on and off, doesn't that make the world think less of us?
Just trying to lay out some theorems of what liberal "thinking" might be like.
Aristides, that Hoffer quote:
"The assertion that a mass movement cannot be stopped by force is not literally true. Force can stop and crush even the most vigorous movement. But to do so the force must be ruthless and persistent. And here is where faith enters as an indispensable factor. For a persecution that is ruthless and persistent can come only from fanatical conviction. 'Any violence which does not spring from a firm, spiritual base, will be wavering and uncertain. It lacks the stability which can only rest in a fanatical outlook.'."
My Secular acquaintances... including people such as that Egelund fella... have no mooring, no point of view, except their own "feelings."
Ultimately, we are willing to fight - on our doorstep if necessary - for our children. It is notable that Secularists have few if any children. Thus, their complete incomprehension as to the Islamist grit, or Red State patriotism.
They truly believe that (a) we can solve this with another meeting of 'minds' in Geneva/Rome; and (b) if Bush were not president, none of this 'unpleasantness' would be occurring.
The mewling on about old people and children in the war zone is just that: mewling. The Hez warriors have no problem leaving Grandma and babies in the path of Israeli rockets. Especially since their bodies are so photogenic, and the easy 'sympathy' of Euro narcissists can be turned into battlefield advantage for themselves.
This is what all this 'sympathy' for the wretched of the earth boils down to: it makes me 'feel bad' when I watch the TV news... so make it stop, Mummy!!!
About the muslim cockroach who committed the crimes in Seattle:
Time to warm up Manzanar, rebuild the tent city. Put them in the camp and pay reparations in fifty years.
Cato the Elder:
We must destroy Iran.
Cedar, bud, that's just way too long, man.
Habu_3:
Beautifully stated, Mr. Irons...
Thanks, but...as you know, those lyrics were lifted from Monty Python, every man Bruce among them!
;-
Jamie Irons
Tony,
Why don't you just submit?
Doug, Tony,
Why don't you just submit?
I can't. I was born fightin', and it's worked out pretty good so far.
No submission in sight, at least not until they put me in my box.
Scenario:
The war is here now. Like FDR, rev up the War Relocation Authority. Move the muslims into shiny new camps. Manzanar, Mindoka: nice outdoor life. Re-start the Custodial Detention Index, upgraded of course for the terror-infested aliens and immigrants of Arab and Iranian origin.
This scenario may well come to pass as we enter more horrific phases of this religious and cultural Great War.
C4, my compliments, your insanity is now being directed onto the enemy. Good show.
rufus
The Marines were sleeping like babies on 23 October 1983.
220 Marines, 18 Sailors, 3 Soldiers never woke up, after one HB came calling.
241 US troops KIA, those left behind, not in peace but in need of a reckoning.
Hezbollah is 3 & 0 against the good guys. Chased US away, once. The Israeli, soon to be twice.
Third times the charm, they say.
Habu 3,
I've been meaning to ask, how come there are so many Habu's?
I mean I love the plane, too. Who don't? I hear the actual snake is a real sumbitg, too.
Ps. Does the two post rule apply on Friday nights, or is it like the parking meters, free on the weekends?
In reference to Wretchard - with all due respect - How about some real Asymmetric Warfare? How about every time one American dies in a terror incident, have the military take out a thousand islamic fascists and/or sympathizers. That would really be "Asymmetric" !!!
Tony,
I mean I love the plane, too. Who don't? I hear the actual snake is a real sumbitg, too...
Snakes on a m-----------ng plane?
(And there's not a damn thing you can do about it.)
Jamie Irons
The Humvees are heading back again hoorah? hoorah?
Back to Iraq again, hoorah? hoorah?
They Military has added two "new" Brigades to rotate through Iraq. Up to 14, total.
Westhawk
Hope for an orderly withdrawal from Iraq collapses
The US Iraq Strategy has pretty much failed, it's foreign troop training capability dismal, the Doctrine of Segregation dooming it from the start. The Camp Tanji illustration strikes again.
Rufus,
With all due respect, I'll submit that the Gipper was facing off nuclear annihilation, and for the first time in 40 years of continuous threat from Soviet nukes, he gave us a new response: Fight Back with Star Wars and a Scots Irish attitude. As much disrespect is directed his way, Reagan will go down in history as the American President who won the Cold war. As much as Libs will try to re-write history as some dumb coincidence, future generations will clearly read the dates and events and see what happened.
Likewise, the GWoT, and this new dummy Prez, who wasn't even a movie star, but only a lowly single-seat supersonic fighter pilot. Just like being a movie star, or a president, anyone could be a fighter pilot, right?
Twenty years from now, any Bushhitlermonkey could have sleep-walked through this GWoT.
(Okay, I swear, I wont' type anymore. Goodnight.)
Tony Blair said something very interesting during the press conference. You can't win an ideological battle by apologizing for what you are. Only with confidence in yourself and your values can you overcome. Already CNN, for example, is setting the tone for the coverage of events in Seattle.
Authorities do not believe the suspect was affiliated with any radical political or religious group, said FBI Assistant Special Agent in Charge David Gomez.
"We believe, at this point, it's just a lone individual acting out some kind of antagonism toward this particular organization," he said.
This in a world where Kofi Annan can decide on the intentionality of one particular attack among thousands of engagements miles away in a war zone. No. If the West goes into a mindless spasm, the last people I will blame will be Muslims. The Western intelligensia will have committed the greatest crime in history; subtly as only evil can but though not in a way they could understand.
habu_3 said:
Teresita,
He'll be tried by a jury of his peers (local Pakistani 7-11 owners) who will use jury nullification on an air tight case.
Well the locals in Belltown (a high density residential area near the Space Needle) are the folks who keep sending "Baghdad" Jim McDermott back to the House every two years. So either way, the mantra will be "If the victims are Jews you must excuse."
He will sue the victims estates for damages to his reputation and be awarded 12 million dollars. A desperate Tom Cruise will play him in the movie produced and directed by Oliver Stone.
Tom Cruise will play a heroic Pakistani operator of an eastern Washington desert "summer camp" and shooting range for dissaffected Muslim men who was in Seattle minding his own business taking pictures of water reservoirs, the Space Needle and Darth Vader's Tower when out of the blue he was given dirty looks by six Zionist-Imperialist Pig Dog women who unfortunately had to be dispatched because they were calling in his innocent tourist activities on their cell phones, or maybe they were just talking to their galpals but they could have been calling the police you know.
The FBI Must give more mandatory sensitivity classes than Marin JC.
Make them open their minds until all brain cells fall out.
Oh no, rufus, I don't think I'd ride with the Mohammedans.
Iran's Mullah and Mr al-Sadr, son of the mentor, had the Hes man speaking to that Mohammedan Council, when one of those cleric types asked him,
"Yo Hes, we winning the War?"
Hes, after a moments reflection said,
"Well, for the first time in 50 years, we are not losing"
I did not know, rufus, that al-Sadr Senior had taught young Hes, but it is no real suprise. Now the teacher's progeny emulates his fathers old student.
"America should be galvanizing the forces of order — Europe, Russia, China and India — into a coalition against these trends. But we can’t. Why? In part, it’s because our president and secretary of state, although they speak with great moral clarity, have no moral authority. That’s been shattered by their performance in Iraq.
The world hates George Bush more than any U.S. president in my lifetime. He is radioactive — and so caught up in his own ideological bubble that he is incapable of imagining or forging alternative strategies."
On the Eve of Madness
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
To true, all too true,except I would differ on the moral clarity part.
Guess I'll have to swear off the Green lipped mussel.
COULDN'T have been my wife's Port that I Bogarted last nite, right?
---
---
Warnings:
Before taking Green lipped mussel, tell your doctor if you are pregnant or breast feeding
Green lipped mussel can be contaminated with heavy metals (5) or shellfish toxins (6)
Side Effects:
Stop taking your medicine right away and talk to your doctor if you have any of the following side effects.
Allergic reaction: Itching or hives, swelling in your face or hands, swelling or tingling in your mouth or throat, chest tightness, trouble breathing, or rash.
---
---
That almost sounds nasty, don't it?
Isn't it interesting that Zawahiri, Al-Queda's Number Two Lunatic, called for all Muslims to rise up and fight the West on July 22, and less than a week later, on July 28, Saudi's King Abdullah obediently issues a "warning" to Israel (and the rest of the World), that "...Saudi Arabia warns everybody that if the peace option fails because of Israeli arrogance, there will be no other option but war."
One has to assume that the good King is also warning America since if Saudi Arabia wants to declare war on Israel, that is something most Americans would be intensely interested in responding to.
However, that's a side issue. I'm just a little surprised that Abdullah is so naive that he's publicly aligned himself with Al-Queda. Who woulda thunk it.
Rush used the term Lunatic.
Fits Well imo.
Habu, sir,
Y'know we all love PossumTater, because this is the Writing / Philosophy blog. Wretchard can't write that good without knowin' what flies he's catchin' with that honey.
But the planes are what I focus on. The Habu that sleeps in the Air and Space Museum at Dulles used to take a thousands mile long necklace of ten tankers to make it from Base to Downtown (no worries) and back home. O man, dream a little dream for me.
I've seen her twice, taken more pictures than I'd take of Marilyn Monroe.
(Okay, NOW I won't type anymore.)
Odorama - Ash, Didn't you mean the Forces of Odor: Europe, Russia, China and India ??
Didn't George Gobel play this guy? Or was it Goebbels?
That would be Joseph Goebbels. The picture is that ugly turbaned little Egyptian 2-bit cockroach from hell.
Ash, the idea that Russia, China, et al would be in lockstep with US policy if only we had retained our long lost moral authority is ridiculous.
I mean, it couldn't possibly be that they perceive their interests differently than we do ours. No, if there's a strategic disagreement in the international community, it must mean we're doing something wrong.
Friedman advocates an effiminate foreign policy of moralism and psycholanalysis with a secondary or tertiary role for our national interest. You can be sure Russia, China, and Iran (and France for that matter) think differently.
Or do you actually believe Russia, who leveled Grozny, or China, who swallowed Tibet, are really worried about our moral failings? Are they really waiting for a more morally-scrupulous leader before they decide to follow?
teresita, what habu said. Doug, hope you haven't accidentally et Fugu. Ash, so don't vote for him next time. Thomas Friedman will not help yer problems, tho. He's got it bad, hasn't been able to make sense ever since the Florida 2000 election got stole from the Jolly Green Giant.
The world hates George Bush more than any U.S. president in my lifetime.
This proves jack-squat. The world is dismal, tragic, shitty place, with dismal, tragic, and shitty people living dismal, tragic, and shitty lives. That's why we all came here.
The world hates Bush because he is undeterrable in championing American values and interests. Half of America hates him for the exact same reason.
Don't pester Ash with history, facts, human nature, science, geopolitics, economics, military theory or the character requirements of leadership. Ash is only interested in ideology.
I think its time for the US, Russia and China to come to an understanding.
We could only defeat the Nazis and the Japanese with the help of the Russians and the Chinese and we couldn't win in Vietnma or Korea without them.
How about Bush, Putin and Hu meet somewhere and agree to this:
1. The US gives Putin free reign in Chechnya
2. We tell Hu we could care less about Taiwan
3. They agree to either look the other way or actively participate as we eliminate Iran, Syria, Hezbollah and the rest of the Islamic menace
The 3 world powers need to realize that Islamic Jihad is a threat to all of us. If we all team up we can eliminate it for good.
What would be a good deal between the US, Russia and China to put an end to the Jihad once and for all?
cedarford:
Here is one of my favorite historical quotes.
"What are you going to do about it?" -- Boss Tweed.
wretchard wrote:
Already CNN, for example, is setting the tone for the coverage of events in Seattle.
Authorities do not believe the suspect was affiliated with any radical political or religious group, said FBI Assistant Special Agent in Charge David Gomez.
Oh, okay, sure, yeah, it's just another run-of-the-mill gun-toting nutball, his religion and nationality (and that of his victims) are irrelevant, and that why we read about them calling in the EOD team in the very same CNN report:
A vehicle belonging to the suspect was found nearby, and bomb and explosives technicians examined it "to make sure it's safe," Metz said.
You wonder why the mainline TV and print media are struggling? They think their consumers have an IQ of 2 and it takes 3 to grunt.
Hewitt,
Finding Nasrallah
Is he the Israelis' Osama?
If so, what would we do if we knew Osama was in an Iranian embassy?
Not bomb it, surely, but the watchers would be everywhere.
From the Washington Times :
Teresita: Good point!
No affiliation to any terror group. Right.
Lone gunman.
Right.
No influence from any psycho religious movement.
Makes sense.
Read:
Ledeen: Mosque Matters
sarah wrote:
1. The US gives Putin free reign in Chechnya
2. We tell Hu we could care less about Taiwan
First they came for the Chechnyans, but we did nothing because we could not care less about the Chechnyans.
Next they came for the Taiwanese, but we did nothing because we could not care less about the Taiwanese.
Eventually they came for the Canadians, but we did nothing because they're just a bunch of hockey-playing beer-drinking hosers, eh?
Finally they came for us, but there was no one standing in the free world to lift a hand.
Seattle Suspect connects attack to Israel
The suspect yelled before the shooting according to the Seattle times
"Iam a Muslim America and I am angry with Israel" he then opened fire.
Posted by Yoni Tidi at 05:48 PM LINK
Buddy,
I'll bet Ash is a very nice fellow. (I'm assuming -- I don't know why -- that Ash is male. But it doesn't matter.)
Before 9/11 I thought in much the same way. I didn't realize, having been a sort of academic type all my life - that I had never learned to think about political and moral questions.
A lot of my best friends are in Berkeley - poets, novelists, academics, and doctors. I find myself spending less time with them because I know they sense (though we never talk about it) how I've changed. I guess they note the quizzical looks, the lack of a follow-up on a condemnation of Bush and/or Israel. The lack of enthusiasm about the Democratic Party, and "progressive" politics.
Thank G_d I still have one liberal, intellectual friend who can kid me about my change and still we get along. (He's a very famous Napa Valley winemaker and land use Macher -- virtually saved the Valley from becoming Santa Clara North by his efforts.) A German, Berkeley educated, with a sense of humor. (A combination that sounds impossible!)
Jamie Irons
Ash wrote:
The world hates George Bush more than any U.S. president in my lifetime...
Now, I've been on this planet 50+ years, and I remember extreme hatred expressed toward Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford (more like amused contempt in his case), Carter, Reagan, Bush 1, Clinton (contempt papered over as affection), and Bush 2.
Jamie Irons
It is now Shabbat; it will be a sad one in Seattle.
We have known countless such days.
But those who hate us exist only on the musty pages of history books, while we remain the living, breathing children of our Creator.
This too will pass.
Shalom!
1. The US gives Putin free reign in Chechnya
2. We tell Hu we could care less about Taiwan
Far away countries about which we know very little.
For the U.N. to pretend at this late date that it is anything other than a sponsor of Terror and international chaos is laughable.
The United Nations is an enabler of Hizb'ollah.
I am a Christian. I have to wonder why the United Nations did not a DAMNED THING to comfort the Israeli victims of Hizb'ollah rocket attacks; no condemnation of the original attack; no expression of outrage at the continuing launch of ball-bearing-filled Katyushas.
What a bunch of crap. Why in the name of anything Holy and Sacred is our government giving a penny to such a crowd of thugs, liars, perverts, and expert embezzlers?
_________________________
"The primary "leap" that must be made, IMO, is to realize that Islam itself is an intolerant, bloody, expansionist faith..."
-C4
_________________________
yeah,the "masses"
will never catch on.
Hey Allen, just to let you know: a lot of us are For Israel and we're of many cultural and religious backgrounds.
Shalom!
Some reading on the cultural and religious conflict:
Spengler on Rosenzweig
aristides wrote:
Far away countries about which we know very little.
"If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were."
-- John Donne
Jamie, concur about the "very nice fellow" hunch.
So true. probably best, while speaking with such nice fellows, not to connect the dots, not to point out to them how lucky they are to be able to feel so good for so little effort, and how blessed they are to never comprehend where their politics so often leads, for other, less fortunate people, caught somewhere out there at the whip end of the connected dots.
Allen, Shalom back at ya. Seattle is just a drop in the bucket, but it is here stateside, so it cannot make you feel very good. Magnanimous post, compliments.
Smacko,
Rush learned an interesting "fact" in the last week:
Supposedly the Luftwaffe was doing a workmanlike job of taking down London's defenses, when an RAF Pilot, lost at night, dropped his Bombs over Berlin.
Pissed Hitler and the Generals off so much, they started bombing London instead of prepping for it.
Supposedly might have saved London.
Hope Peter UK or someone who knows sees this.
I was not aware that LeMay represented a COMPLETE change of policy like that.
---
---
In the next hour, Churchill's grandson called in!
I think he said he was calling from Georgia.
He gives talks about Winston.
Jamie,
If you don't mind:
Is your wife a regular MD,
or is she too a Head Case?
I think there is a strong chance Hezbollah will win and Israel will lose this war. And this is less because of what happens militarily than the European Union’s intense desire to see Israel lose and lose badly.
In this scenario, Hezbollah accepts a European Union peace plan and promises to disarm. It accepts a multinational “peacekeeping” force to assist the Lebanese military in patrolling Lebanon’s southern border.
http://www.casperstartribune.net/articles/2006/07/28/ap/headlines/d8j5cb280.txt
And guess what? Mr. Nasrallah would find some loophole in the cease-fire imposed by the U.N. Security Council to negate UNSCR 1559. He’d keep his militia, perhaps as “special police for the Lebanese Department of Energy” or some such designation and keep on browbeating the Lebanese political establishment with it. Meanwhile, enough European troops would patrol southern Lebanon to become human shields for Mr. Nasrallah but not enough to keep him from doing whatever he wants. The missiles would still fly into Israel, Israeli soldiers would still be attacked, and Israeli soldiers would still be kidnapped for more lopsided prisoner exchanges. But Israel would be warned against responding lest it break a one-sided cease-fire imposed by the U.N. Security Council.
Pundits throughout the world would praise the superhuman fighting prowess of Hezbollah and Mr. Nasrallah would strut like a peacock in Lebanon, bestowing audiences to one dignitary after another from the Arabisphere. And Iran would have acquired a major deterrent called EU diplomacy against anything United States might contemplate against Iran’s nuclear program. Diplomacy would be used where military force had hitherto failed to attempt to turn Israelis into the historic “cringing Jew”.
The question is whether the European Union can steamroll President Bush into ramming defeat down Israel’s throat.
The neat thing about being old is you lose some of your fantasies about your ability to convert someone to see the "truth", as you do.
...unless like Rush, you have made a career of it and get good at it.
His method was to never have that as a goal, but to maximize his business sucess and audience size.
Doug, I think a Luftwaffe raider error dropped bombs on London, then the Brits retaliated with a nuisance raid on Berlin, which then caused Luftwaffe to switch their strategic campaign from RAF bases and Chain Home radar sites, to terror bombing of Brit cities.
At the time, RAF was in some amount of trouble, the base bombings were hurting badly.
When Luftwaffe switched campaigns, RAF recovered quickly and soon stopped "The Blitz", as the terror bombing was called.
This in turn caused a call-off of an invasion attempt, in favor of the invasion of USSR.
10:15 PM
Oooh! That hurts if you're a Nazi!
---
I know very little about the Russian dustup, except that it was so ugly that I may never get around to knowing.
Love and Honor was more my speed, back in the good old days when the Cossacks would cut your head off with a Pony Charge.
Doug, a similar "hand of God" unbelievable stroke of fortune also turned the tide in the Pacific.
An accident of timing--formations out of touch with each other, essentially lost over the Pacific searching for the Japanese fleet--resulted in a torpedo plane squadron (Torpedo Eight) drawing down the Japanese fighter high cover onto the torpedo planes' low-level attack.
Torpedo Eight sacrificed itself to a plane (one man survived and was later fished out of the sea) but the Zeros were all down low killing those Torps when a dive bomber squadron by chance arrived up high.
A few minutes later four irreplaceable Japanese fleet carriers were aflame and sinking (3 quickly, 1 a little later). If you wrote it in a novel no one would buy it.
Oops--"Midway".
"If you wrote it in a novel no one would buy it."
---
But if you live in Hawaii, you can't miss it!
...and now the Federal Jerks have taken over and mandate that "nature" cover much of it up!
People these days in the West cannot seem to comprehend what war is really like. Readers who’ve seen me reference these historical trivia before will please forgive me:
I’m sure Doug is kidding us, and knows very well that Mother Russia lost something like twenty millions of her citizens in the “Great Patriotic War.” (Isn’t that approximately the total population of California, or the combined population of L.A. and New York and some outlying districts?)
The U.S. in all its combat, battles, skirmishes, torpedoings, ambushes, amphibious assaults, and paratroop landings, lost about half a million soldiers. (about a 20:1 ratio...)
In the Second World War, Russia lost more first lieutenants than the United States lost of all ranks in all branches of its armed forces.
And in the sacrifice captured millions of Nazis, and finally marched into Berlin from the East, to meet the Allies.
That is not to ignore the assistance the West provided to the Soviet Union. My point is that in other parts of the world there are people who have seen that a nation can absorb vast hemorrhages of citizens and still advance its aims.
I mind a time when my niece — who has since become a very tough and persistent loving and energetic mom to four kids — took the afternoon off from her office job after a paper cut.
Sorta seems like there's a metaphor in there somewhere...
Jolly Green Giant after the Pearl Harbor artifacts?
So true about Russia's sacrifice, but you gotta give ole Uncle Sam credit, to, for fighting both fascist empires simultaneously, and not because either was invading the USA, but because they were bad and needed to be stopped.
This seems to be a war of NGO's vs States. This is what is being interpreted as Asymmetrical. NGO's don't fall under Geneva Conventions like a stat does. Small NGO's endorsed or acknowledged by the largest NGO of them all. The United Nations. This ogranization seems to be more useful the those willing to cry victim while they rape and sodomize.
Momma Bear
---
I was surprised how much has been saved, even away from Pearl Proper.
Midway's problem was being so remote, with a bunch of eco tourists, and etc that the politics allowed it to happen.
Too many real Americans in Honolulu at least at this date, to let that happen.
Lots of Japanese too, although I worry about the future for them too, the more I learn about the extent to which some are again rewriting history.
There were some interesting accounts when Japanese Elvis toured Graceland.
11:08 PM,
Great Point:
Win the WOT by eliminating all NGO's from the face of the Earth!
Greeting from Seattle, where the police have taken great pains to increase patrols around mosques, because "there is always concern about retaliatory activity."
Sigh and sigh again.
Buddy,
And those lost dive bombers only found the IJN carriers because a lone US sub had made an ineffective attack earlier, and a Japanese DD stayed behind to drop some depth charges. The lost SDB pilots say the Destroyer racing to catch back up with the fleet and it led them right to their target.
Buddy,
Also keep in mind that the Russians would not have survived at all if it weren't for Lend Lease.
the mad fiddler,
Those 20 million deaths in Russia also had alot to do with Stalin himself. All of the US's activites proped up one facist regime for another. The US would have survived the war if Hitler would have taken Russia out of the game. It would have taken longer and we would have used the nukes on Berlin and Moscow to make our final point.
Jamie:
Server acting up again:
What my browser does, is when I reload and am reading the latest post, when your pic finally gets loaded, browser pops back to the top of the page!
Very Disturbing!
Don't know if others have the same problem.
If you could link to that one I put on blogger's servers, I think we'd have better luck.
doug,
Win the WOT by eliminating all NGO's from the face of the Earth!
I don't think that was my point. NGO's are idealogical in their purpose and sacntioned by sympathetic states, and even entire societies. States taking on NGO's is ineffective on a war that has no real named ememy. WOT or War on Tactics is a weak moral response by all states involved. Backing opposing NGO's to confront these are more like a practical solution. As the the UN, well that another issue completely.
"Sigh and sigh again."
---
Anger/Despair, Anger/Despair, Anger/Despair, ANGER/DESPAIR, ANGER/DESPAIR, ANGER/DESPAIR!
When will the Madness stop?
---
And I left out fear, esp for the young uns.
Fighting spirit, bending Fate.
re retaliatory:
---
An absence of ANY Evidence Whatsoever is NEVER a problem for liberals.
If they'd just renounce only the PC part we'd increase our chances of survival.
Hawk,
We keep on sanctioning the tactic of criminals playing the victim even as they rape and sodomize the real ones.
doug,
An absence of ANY Evidence. .
Those that refuse to deal with concious and rational search to understand reality wont' need any evidence. They invent it and then invent more to back that up.
Pleasant Surprise:
I guess the Nationals will now apologize for how wrong they were, right?
---
---
'I am a Muslim American, angry at Israel'
On the eve of the Jewish Sabbath, a man claiming he was upset about "what was going on in Israel" opened fire at the Jewish Federation of Greater Seattle building, killing one person and wounding five women, one of them pregnant.
- Robert Jamieson: Hate an attack on all
- A major charity for Jewish causes
- Solidarity among interfaith community
Sound Off: Were you affected?
---
PIC - Mike Urban/P-I
Paramedics rush away one of the six victims of a shooting at the Jewish Federation of Greater Seattle's offices downtown on Friday.
It's a HATE CRIME though.
Those Joos aren't easy to Terrorize, ya know.
Sad Indeed:
"It is sad and infuriating and frightening to think that conflict in the Middle East can ruin peace of mind here at home. It doesn't matter if the target of a hate crime is a mosque, a synagogue or a community center.
An attack on any such institution is an attack on anyone who believes in the freedoms of this country and importance of community.
On a sunny Friday afternoon in Seattle, a man filled with hate attacked every one of us"
---
I carried quite a bit of hate myself, back in the day.
Guess I didn't feel too "enabled and empowered," though, by a whole world full of fellow travelers telling me my feelings were valid and worth acting out on.
...I wonder where that might have come from?
I agree with many above that this is the template for the future. We will see the future of western civilization here. Has the rot gone deep enough that we cannot recover ourselves? Israel will provide the answer. If Israel, in a time of momentous danger, can't collect the will to win then the lights will go out across the western world again, because it will be the sign that nothing is to be defended.
What IS this sordid, murky, overwrought, hyperventilated, psycotic, schizoid, delusional, mesmerizing, enchanting, hypnotic, dream-weaving, spellbinding, utter horseshit?
August 22 is also the scheduled release of Paris Hilton's debut album. Talk about the Alpha and Omega of religious hysteria trying to occupy the same space in the same time. Jeez, I picked a fine time to not be unborn.
About 200 protesters, many waving Lebanese and Palestinian flags kicked, punched and pelted John Howard's car today after the prime minister, who has been supportive of Israel, emerged from a Liberal Party conference in Perth. "We want peace," they chanted as they mobbed Mr Howard's vehicle.
Morwellian Oralizing.
Wonder where the counter-demonstrators are?
Howard's comments about the oppo's mining and labor policies are priceless.
12:30 AM
Hey! That's a First for Me!
I like and respect Paris Hilton's efforts more than someone elses!
"Authorities do not believe the suspect was affiliated with any radical political or religious group, said FBI Assistant Special Agent in Charge David Gomez."
---
If you can pretzel your mind into accepting that that might possibly not be a complete baldfaced lie,
would it still be alright to ask WHY
FBI Assistant Special Agent in Charge David Gomez
didn't mention WHAT the guy was yelling about?
As I remember it, it wasn't about his girl that done him wrong, was it?
A Canberra aircraft is escorted by 9 Red Arrows as it performs a flypast at the 39 Squadron Disbandment Parade held at the Royal Air Force base at Marham, England, Friday.
The RAF waved goodbye to one of its most famous spy planes, the Canberra, which first flew in 1949, after defence ministers decided that the aircraft should be phased out because of advances in surveillance technology.
(AP Photo/Chris Radburn-pa)
(July 28, 2006)
Wonder if the Skunkworks got some of their U-2 inspiration from that old lady?
A little personal opinion on the two post rule. This place with the strict adherence to the rule is like Thanksgiving with a tofu turkey. Some of the scolding traffic posting wardens can be more tedious than any multi-poster. The all-time mega-poster was wu wei. He was a very enthusiastic guy and clearly needed his own blog. I differed with him, but then the other day, I was called a "petulant ignorant f*ck", so I can wrinkle a shirt or two. I am never going to have my own blog for no other reason than it is too much work. I do not know how our host does it. I just don't want it to stop, but he's the guvnor.
C-4 is a strict adherent to the rule, but that boy can blow some radiator caps with one turn of the engine. This blog would be one collossal yawn without the loyal opposition and by the way, where went wu wei?
2164th,
The rule is a guideline which I try to follow myself and which I am obviously breaking on this thread. I think the spirit behind it is good but it's nob substitute for good judgment
I wonder if pooncoon Don is related to Mr Beachcomber of Hawaiian pooncoon fame?
Mr C-4 mentioned spending:
I just learnt yesterday they spent
THIRTY SIX BILLION of our hard-earned Dollars on that worthless Dept of Homeland Bureaucratic Impurities.
GRACIOUS!
Speakin of runnin on: I just HAVE to unload:
---
I can't go on like this, typin right through this internet/habu link direct to P-tater's little brain all the time actin like I'm not carrying a dark, shameful, and disgusting secret from the past regarding his kin:
I SWEAR if Id'a known how tough his little Cousin's skull was...
There's NO WAY I woulda chose that trenching tool as my weapon of choice when I took after the little feller hangin inside our chicken coop: NO WAY! Something quick, easy, and HUMANE, I woulda come up with, honest. I woulda done ANYTHING else had I known what a bloody, disgusting affair that was going to turn into. Even the transport the critter to somebody else's backyard in a boxtrap trick like we sometimes did with Bobcats. ANYTHING!
I know I can't expect P-tater to ever really forgive me, but if he could just leave a few bygones go, and accept me as a flawed but sincere human cousin tryin my best to make amends for my past transgressions I'd be grateful, eternally.
Once again, I am sorry beyond words.
Thank you for your kind, furry attention.
Was that Mavis Bacon outfit in Georgia, or Sillycoon Valley?
© 2006 WorldNetDaily.com
Al-Qaida has launched an Internet television channel that broadcasts speeches by Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri and documentaries about its war with the West.
The Arabic–language site is called al-Firdaws and it appears to be in an experimental stage.
Currently the videos air between 8 p.m. and midnight Mecca time.
Like most traditional Islamic television channels, the broadcasts open with a reading from the Koran, followed by a film on al-Zarqawi and various videos.
The end of programming comes with Jihadi songs, calling for Islamic martyrdom.
The Dangers of a Kinder, Gentler Bush
By Danielle Pletka
Financial Times | July 28, 2006
The first four years of the Bush administration, the so-called cowboy years, were characterised by assertive leadership, a no-nonsense national security policy and gratuitous rudeness to many of America's allies. Recently, Washington has made a 180-degree turn: the cowboy is gone, the rudeness is gone and with them, it appears, has gone a sound security policy.
The centrepiece of American foreign policy now consists of multilateralism for multilateralism's sake, a triumph of process over progress. From North Korea to Iran, challenges that once had America reaching for its holster are now viewed as opportunities to have another meeting...
FRONTPAGE
Doug,
Sorry, I wasn't around at 11:20 PM.
Couldn't get your work-around to function.
I removed the picture altogether, and as Mrs. Irons raised her sons to be good citizens, I'll just do without one!
Jamie Irons
Jeez, that's too bad:
Nice Picture!
Maybe one of your engineer sons could provide aid?
I would no nothing had I not homeschooled our computer wizard son. Wish he was still here to keep me current!
---
If you were a liberal, how did you avoid the curse of 2 or fewer kids?
Sure wish we had grown up in time to have more.
---
Sure wish Ledeen Ran State Dept - or Chester.
Iranians like Heydari believe that their country, ethnically and linguistically Persian, should stay out of the Arabs' fight with Israel and focus on improving living standards at home. "I don't think it's right to support them when our own people are hungry," says Mohammad Reza Afshari, 23, a mechanic who works two jobs yet still cannot afford to move out or attend college. The shop where he works abuts a vast mural depicting a female suicide bomber with a baby in her arms, accompanied by the words I LOVE MOTHERHOOD, BUT I LOVE MARTYRDOM MORE. Frustration with such propaganda underpins young people's reactions to the conflict. "Where are the Arabs?" asks Afshari angrily. "They're sitting around, while we're risking our position in the world."
How many sibs, if I may ask?
Did girls got left out of 2 generations? ;-)
---
Incidentally, my son, and my best friend (an old aerospace engineer)
Both say I ask too many questions, so disregard any you please.
Doug and Habu,
P-taters are a protected species in the Napa Valley.
When we first moved here in the early eighties, we had a chicken coop. I went out one night to see what all the commotion was, armed not with an entrenching tool (Porgie! Don't eat with your hands! Use your entrenching tool!), but with a burned out Skilsaw and a handful of those two-ounce triangular sinkers you use for surf-casting off our coast.
Sure enough, old P-T was slinking out of the coop, two or three hens stuffed in pouch and the old rooster dangling from those ugly jaws...
Up to that moment I had been unaware that Fish and Game had helicopters, let alone S.W.A.T. teams!
Jamie Irons
(Three sibs, one sister in Morocco, two brothers in US)
Meet Naveed Afzal Haq [Andy McCarthy]
The Seattle Times (h/t Robert Spencer at Jihad Watch) has more background on Naveed Afzal Haq, the man who yesterday shot six women, one fatally. We learn that his father was a founder of a local Islamic center; his landlady thought he had recently gone to Pakistan;
"He said he hates Israel," said the source, who is part of the Seattle Joint Terrorism Task Force, which was called in to help investigate the shootings.
David Gomez, the assistant special agent-in-charge of the Seattle FBI office, said there is "nothing to indicate he is part of a larger organization.""We believe he is a lone individual with antagonism toward this organization," said Gomez....
Haq was involved in an Islamic center in Richland, but he did not discuss his religion with his neighbors, said Hales.
9:40 AMNot Terrorism Related, and Certainly Not Islam Related [Andy McCarthy]
Kathryn, the Post-Intelligencer story is so typical of what happens in a society and a government which default from the ideology part of an ideological war.
A Muslim man walks into not just any building in Seattle — not even just any identifiably Jewish location in Seattle — but into the Jewish Federation of Greater Seattle, whose mission since 1926, according to the website it maintains, is to "ensure Jewish survival and to enhance the quality of Jewish life locally, in Israel and worldwide."
The Muslim man has obviously not only carefully chosen the target but cased the place. There's a security system, so he waits until someone attached to the Federation enters using her access code, then he pounces, forcing his way through the open door. He brandishes a large caliber, semi-automatic handgun. He announces that he's a Muslim angry at Israel. Then he randomly, wantonly opens fire — shooting six women, one of whom is pregnant, one of whom is killed.
So what happens? The police don't even want to admit that he's Muslim ("You could infer that," the police chief tells the reporters who press this patently relevant question). And the FBI insists it's not terrorism.
Now, it could not conceivably be more clear that it is terrorism. If the FBI is saying they can't link him to any known terrorist group, that doesn't mean it's not terrorism. It's too early in the investigation to have run down whether the guy has ties to known groups; even if he doesn't, not all terrorism is committed by known groups (sometimes the acts of terror are how we get to know them); and even if he is acting alone, federal law recognizes the concept of lone-wolf terrorism.
Brent Scrowcroft writes a really funny piece today in the WaPo. Ms Condi's mentor has the answer, so to be sure, Condi does too.
So simple and yet refined. The compromise for all times.
Yet, he says "... These elements are well-known to people who live in the region and to those outside who have labored over the decades seeking to shape a lasting peace. What seems breathtakingly complicated, however, is how one mobilizes the necessary political will, in the region and beyond, to transform these principles into an agreement on a lasting accord. ..."
If only everyone would agree, there'd be no more problem. But then Mr Scrowcroft and his apprentice are behind the curve. The are both Hamadan true believers
"... But Hezbollah is not the source of the problem; it is a derivative of the cause, which is the tragic conflict over Palestine that began in 1948. ..."
Just another Local Conflict, the original and still the best.
Not part of an International Axis or Mohammedan Mahdi fanatics attempt to gain World Dominion.
So, no habu, do not expect a midnight flock of US birds to fly through the Arabian night.
DR,
The idiocy of Mr. Scowcroft is appalling. I know you're being ironic, but I don't find it amusing.
What has happened to this country?
Jamie Irons
Hezbollah politicians agree to cease fire (story in lefty Haaretz so take with appropriate number of grains of salt).
doug,
Bet he did not have the aQ ID card.
No aQ card, you can't be a Terrorist. Like those fellows in Miami, they made themselves ID cards, so they qualify as Terrorists even though they committed no Terrorist Acts.
DC is a Union town, doug, if they don't have a card, are not a dues paying member, a Criminal can't be a Terrorist.
There are Rules
Hawaii is a Union State.
I understand rules.
I am unarmed.
Son is undetered!
One Shipping Company.
No Costco Gas.
30 cent electricity.
Union Song:
"Lucky You Live Hawaii!"
"So, no habu, do not expect a midnight flock of US birds to fly through the Arabian night. "
---
I watch such periodic flights of fancy here at the club as nice exceptions where my vision is superior to my betters.
I'll never forget the nite FRED predicted some leaker would have the book thrown at him!
Har de Har Har!, ad nauseum.
C4, without delving into your post beyond two obvious howlers, have you looked at the stock performances of "Bush's Big Pharma" since the PDB? Or of federal tax rcpts since the "tax breaks for the rich"? And that's just plain old arithmetic--no dynamic scoring or nuthin.
Those pesky Israeli, now they've gone and created the greatest ecological disaster, EVER, in the Med.
"... The Mediterranean is threatened by its worst ever environmental disaster after Israel's bombing of a power plant in Lebanon sent thousands of tonnes of fuel gushing into the sea, the environment minister charged.
"Up until now 10,000-15,000 tonnes of heavy fuel oil have spilled out into the sea," after Israel's bombing of the power station in Jiyeh two weeks ago, Lebanese Environment Minister Yacub Sarraf told AFP Saturday. ..."
Lebanon oil slick 'worst environmental disaster' in Med
Should have gone and killed a few hundred of Doc Assad's tanks. Would have diminished HB politically and Syria both politically and militarily. Instead it is Israel that did not meet it's "Goal" of HB's destruction.
No civilians displaced, no charges of War Crimes, or sectarian cleansing, no ecological disaster.
They could have had a "clean" Border War, as Washington, by blaming Syria from the outset, had given them cover for.
Poor choices were made Israel
I'm starting to think Baby and Prof Landis have Magical Powers.
"On a sunny Friday afternoon in Seattle, a man filled with hate attacked every one of us"
Until the boneheads in our Sept. 10 governmental and law enforcement circles start saying:
"On a Sunni Friday afternoon, a man following the teachings of a violent, intolerant, malignant ideology that has invaded our country attacked every one of us - as he was instructed to do. This ideology, known as the religion of Islam, is now considered a seditious movement in the United States of America.
All foreigners who follow this ideology will be immediately deported to their countries of origin.
All US citizens following this ideology should quit it immediately and learn to worship their Creator in a peaceable manner.
All enemy bases, formerly known as 'mosques' are to be evacuated immediately. They will be locked down and razed in 24 hours. Those who stay to defend these bases will be considered enemy combatants and will be taken out with extreme prejudice.
All borders, ports of entry and airports have been sealed. All persons attempting entry into the country through unauthorized channels will be considered enemy combatants and will be held until their identities verified and this conflict is won. Those who attempt to evade border security by fleeing INTO the country will be considered hostile invaders and will be fired on.
Any ideology that calls itself a 'religion' that seeks to destroy the Constitution of the United States of America, deny our citizens their inalienable rights and impose a theocracy on this land is not protected by the First Amendment.
Followers of this ideology are to be considered armed and extremely dangerous. Citizens are encouraged to form local defense groups and coordinate with local law enforcement authorities on enemy activity, movement and communications.
Our oaths as public servants and citizens to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States of America will be fulfilled.
This country will be defended. This enemy will be defeated. We will start from the inside of our borders and work our way out.
We regret these steps must be taken. This enemy must be annihilated so that true Liberty may again be restored. We will not stop until there is total victory."
Maybe anybody but Olmert would have gone for Syria?
Peaceniks surrounded by Wolves!
I pray for brother d-day to prevail!
"Our oaths as public servants and citizens to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States of America will be fulfilled."
---
GWB and Friends to internment camps for the duration!
(I love preening for the Booster Club!)
Take Israel's limp-wristed response at the one golden opportunity it will probably ever have to neuter Hizbu'allah as a perfect example of the perils of predicting the future.
If there was a "sure thing" this was it.
Rule Number One for all human enterprise is to never, never, never allow a lawyer to be the chief executive officer of anything.
Boyles @ NRO
(Cowardice, Duplicity, and Cheese)
"Outsourcing abuse: Who said the Germans aren’t on our side? At a sidewalk café in Paris earlier this week, I sat close to a table filled with tourists having a great time and talking very loudly over each other in English. Next to me, a big, drunk German who grew darker and darker and finally could stand it no more. He leapt to his feet, turned and shouted, “Will you shut your bloody mouths?! You can drop your bombs on Baghdad but you can’t shut up in a café?!” A moment of silence as he gulped the rest of his beer and, amid applause, made an obscene gesture toward the stunned table of tourists and staggered off into the night.
“Jeez, eh?”
said one of the shell-shocked tourists. “
We’re not Americans.
We’re Canadian.”"
Every friggin ACTION is
"a can of worms"
Larry Johnson for President!
- Trish
I never really liked Snow way back when he subbed for Rush.
Mr. Happy face in the face of Probable Holocaust.
Sorry.
:-)
Too bad we have kids, eh?
(as the Canucks would say)
SyriaComment.com
Thoughts on Syrian politics, history and religion.
Friday, July 28, 2006
Warren Christopher Says "Syria is Critical Participant"
Warren Christopher, Secretary of State under President Clinton, explains why:
"Syria may well be a critical participant in any cease-fire arrangement, just as it was in 1993 and 1996."A Time To ActBy Warren ChristopherWashington Post Friday, July 28, 2006; A25
---
PEACE IN OUR TIME!
(FOR 3 YEARS)
"more precisely neither ours nor a war "
---
Or as Johnny McCain said about Amnesty:
"You can call it a Banana!
(just don't call it amnesty)"
---
Cowboy (hat) Talk:
"IT AIN'T NUTHIN!"
Does this administration have a clue about what is going on below our own borders? They rightly should be worried about a Sunni Crescent, but we have a A real problem with the oil rich populist Chavez. And the joke with our relations with Putin and Russia. If Bush had a clue he could score a three-for. There is nothing more that would hurt Iran, Russia and Venezuela than to squeeze the oil markets. Once the oil market realizes the US is serrious about getting off the oil addiction, the current $30 premium will come down fast. We get a further benefit by a real reduction in our balance of trade, which China is further using to greatly influence its position in Latin America. The RIV three all are very dependent on those extra dollars. A small reduction will have a big impact on them quickly. Are we so stupid that we have to wait for a real Southern security problem because of an incompetent and diplomacy challenged administration.
The Arabs have tasted military defeat too often. They are admirable in this: they steadfastly refuse to accept any defeat as final. They are able to lose nearly everything and still hope for victory. Eventual victory at least. In contrast, the Western media will see 9 Israelis killed and say "see? They are defeated". Some Israelis would probably accept defeat as well. But there is a hard core who will never give up, as some of their predecesors refused to give up, even when the Roman legionaries could be heard talking outside the final redoubt. And that is true too. For some cultures, victory and defeat is an illusion. For others it marks the beginning and end of their world.
///////////
An interesting point here occured to me a couple years back. There were two other major rebellions against the romans that happened in the same time period as the jewish rebellion. one was the british rebellion and the german rebellion. the brits were unsuccessful. (but they will get a movie on that soon.) the germans were successful. the battle of tutenberg forest kept the romans out of germany for the duration of their empire. all three rebellions occured within 30 years of the deification of Augustus whose reign coincided with the the time of jesus walk on this earth. Because we have the dead sea scrolls we know that Jesus read the same account of the destruction of the first temple as we read. Therefor its not coincidental that when he put on the prophetic hat his remarks suggest that he like jeremiah knew the flow of events would lead to the destruction of the temple.
For the messiah to come either the first or second time the temple has to be rebuilt. Jewish and christian thinking give two not contradictory but parallel reasons for this. Jewish thinking has it that in order for the messiah to come he has to have his temple to worship in. Christian thinking has it that in order for the messiah to come there has to be an abomination in the temple. but in order for the abomination to come there has to first be a temple.
What would be the abomination? The most intelligent speculation that I've hear on this subject came from lon soloman from Mclean Bible Church in a suburb outside of DC. He said he figured he abomination would be the statue of a man.
Psalms 118:8
"It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man."
(for some denominations Psalms 118:8 is the middle verse in the middle chapter of the bible .)
gee whiz, PB, go back to Lebanon, Again Read the original Post & comments up to 3:12, or beyond.
Predicting the outcome of this was like fallin' out of bed.
Each actor to their part.
Lawyers, PB, or any grad of an Ivy League school. Especially anyone that went to two, or more.
"The dilemma facing Israel is whether it needs the military victory more than political legitimacy."
Aren't we being a tad naive there? Political legitimacy is ruled out for Israel in the current politico/diplo-game...has been for about 30 years. That Israel met it's obligations re: withdrawal, suffered steady rocketing and then kidnappings and is now being condemned for responding is proof of how rigged game is against Israel.
At best, this action is a victory for Israel if it destroys a lot of HB's terrorist infrastructure and causes HB to burn through a large quantity of it's munitions without much result.
As to HB, Israel could pursue them back into Syria and execute the last HB on international television and it would be reported as an HB victory.
Finally, what is the fixation on WWII Euro-style land mass warfare?...all this twitting along about how IDF has not pursued HB into Lebanon and how that means the HB are courageous and hard fighters (reminiscent of how fearsome Saddam's Republican Guard was). HB has bee HARDENING SOUTH LEBANON FOR SIX YEARS!!!!! Anybody in the MSM understand what that means?...read a little Sun Tzu? The commander who would rush his troops onto that ground should be court-martialed and hung.
South Lebanon has to be a Disneyland of defensive warfare into which HB is praying the IDF will rush. That would be a truly devastating event for Israel and a truly great victory for the HB. Fortunately, the IDF commanders are samrter than that.
"I'm wondering how long it will take the operative people in the West--the U. S. and U. K. mainly--to come to the same conclusion." So am I...waiting for the day when the scimitar meets the terrible, swift sword....
"trish said...
Syria, as well as Iran, was thrown in there by the admin to take pressure off the Lebanese govt. The admin can't afford to green-light conventional action on Israel's part against Syria. Can of worms it doesn't want opened.
Tony Snow said all you need to know. Namely: Not only is this not "our" war, it is not a "war" at all. It is "hostilities." Sure do wanna keep it that way, too. "
--------------
True it is not 'our' war, as in 'not only US' but rather Bush et al want everyone else in the world to rally behind his leadership.
Look at the administrations position since day 1 of this conflict - 'HB must be disarmed' which is Israel's position too, and cherry picking UN resolutions, the UN's position as well. But no one else is (as of yet) willing to belly up to the bar and deliver boots on the ground, so Bush and crew in their usual style, have set themselves up for failure yet again. HB will not be 'disarmed' by a world rallying behind Bush pushing Israeli policy and Lebanon burns with the Cedar Revolution a distant memory with Islamic hatred on the rise and march fueled by stooopid policy which goes back many years (a surprise to so many here who thought it all started with a few Israeli soldiers getting nabbed by rabid islamists with a hatred for all things American/Iraeli).
I read this KSA quote a little differently. The "no one knows the repercussions befalling the region...that will spare no one including those whose military power is now tempting them to play with fire." was really directed to the leadership of Iran.
On ArabNews, funded by the Saudi gubbment, they're printing Abdullah's quote cheek by jowl with denunciations of Israel. If it *was* aimed at Iran, seems like the positioning in the local rag didn't get the message through.
Greeting from Seattle, where the police have taken great pains to increase patrols around mosques, because "there is always concern about retaliatory activity."
Sigh and sigh again.
So if a mob of Amerian peasant farmers *did* rise up and descend upon every mosque in sight, determined to burn them all to the ground and to run their users out of the country, do we think the police would fire on the Real Americans?
Congratulations to Hezbollah on a hard fought victory, they have earned it on the battlefield. The first force to defeat the Israelis on the battlefield, they will rightly become the vanguard of the arab world.
As for Israel, hopefully this defeat will hvae some positive consequences:
1. Olmert will be gone by the end of the year and the Likud will cement power for the next 5-10 yrs.
2. His withdrawal plan is finished
3. The IDF will realize that they don't have and have never had a strategic air force, but rather strategic ground forces with a tactical air force
4. They will become more determined to end Iran's nuclear program realizing that a Nuclear Iran is the emd of Israel
5. They will heed the wake up call and return to the mindset and policies that made them a regional power as opposed to the current policy that has turned them into a regional laughingstock
I concur with 3case--this stage--which may or may not be the only stage--has had a limited operation from the beginning, just as Israel has said from the beginning statement: "we will change the rules".
Note, "the rules"--not the opposing regimes. Implied: "Not in this stage."
And as far as the global public sentiment factor of the strategic calculus, Israel ain't even in that game, she'd have to be defeated--perhaps obliterated--in order to be loved.
Yes, events might wobble the lip service a few degrees now and then, but only for awhile, much like the world's full-throated support for America which lasted all of a month or two following 911.
This would have been a defat for the Israel if they had done what Hezbolah expected and wanted - negotiated away something in return for the kidnapped men. No loss of any resources for the terrorists, the satisfaction of tweaking of the tiger's tail, something to show for the hundreds of million$ sent over by Iran recently and a Media diversion from Iran's nuclear efforts.
The IAF "overreaction" is just what was needed. That and a national recognition that you don't screw with Rabaul but go straight for Tokyo.
rufus, they busted up a lot of stuff that now has to be replaced. They outlined the fact that Iran is on the northern border--no one can doubt it any longer. They set the next stage.
If the enemy quits for awhile, that lets the 1.5 million northern Israelis go home. Crisis kicked down the road is at least off the back for the moment.
I'm with you on the need for the "big push" but evidently all the pieces ain't in place yet.
"Not necessarily be required...." is how Fox reported the text--unless I heard wrong. No surrender, just atmospheric ploy.
DR 8:45
I read the Lebanon, Again post and comments and there is nothing of predictive value in there. Nobody, and I mean Nobody, could have predicted that the IDF would sit idle on their side of the border while Hizbu'allah fired 1,500 rockets into Israeli cities.
I'm trying to find an upside to this and there is none. The only remaining possibility is that this so called international force would meaningfully engage HB. But since there will be no USA or Brits in the mix the probablility of that actually happening is near zero.
There is still an unknown variable. We do not know how effective the IAF has been in killing HB personnel in the Bekaa. Neither do we know the effect of the 20,000+ artillery rounds. I do not think that the number of Katyushas fired on any given day is the best indicator of that effect. It only takes a couple people to fire a truckload of rockets and for all we know they may be the last HB standing. Many rockets are also being fired from the Tyre area. That doesn't contribute any information to HB troop strength in Bekaa.
Unfortunately, in the long run what the IAF accomplishes doesn't matter. The damage has been done. The IDF got eyeball to eyeball with Hizbu'allah and backd down from the fight. Olmert is a fool. He has spent the lives of thousands of Israelis down the road to spare himself the criticism and responsibility of a few hundred today. A real Jimmah Carter moment.
rufus--what's it gonna take to bring the world in line to back a final showdown with the mullahs? I'd say, a clear understanding that those guys must not get the Bomb. The world is watching the slide show presentation on the topic right now, courtesy of Israel.
3case
The IDF has the ability to place anything from overwhelming to annihilating firepower at any point on the battlefield they choose. The IDF has air superiority, unrestricted maneuverability, completely secure flanks, and inexhaustible supplies. They sit because of the politicians. When confronted by the enemy Olmert chose to neuter the IDF. The man has done more to damage Israel's security than 60 years of Arab armies ever could. Olmert has told the Arabs that if they persevere they will win.
The region of Southern Lebanon is an appropriate theater to bring back the Grand Slam aerial bomb developed by Barnes Wallis to reduce the Nazis' hardened Unterseeboote pens. A photo of one of these bombs on display at the RAF Museam at Lossiemouth with a man standing beside it looks like a contemporary mini-submarine with its crew.
The "Grand Slam" was a 9.98 tonne (22,000 lb.) bomb with a length of 7.7 meters, designed for deep penetration of hardened targets. Dropped from high altitude, the bomb’s fins applied spin-stabilization to its travel, allowing it to achieve supersonic speed, and penetration as deep as *40 meters.* Its detonation of 4,144 kilograms of Torpex tended to create a sizeable cavern (“camouflet”), with attendant seizmic waves, and subsequent collapse of the overburden.
This sort of ground movement would squish the Hizb’ollah turds moving through their nasty little tunnels, and give their above-ground fortifications a good rattle. Currently much of the weaponry being applied to South Lebanon could be characterized as “anti-personnel” and seems to be used in ways that are likely to produce a wide radius of injuries, while the buildings are damaged but left standing. Once the “non-combatant” civilians are evacuated, it will be all the more important to destroy the Hizb’ underground facilities, that they’ve had six years and more to prepare.
http://www.tscholars.com/encyclopedia/Grand_Slam_bomb
nahncee:
So if a mob of Amerian peasant farmers *did* rise up and descend upon every mosque in sight, determined to burn them all to the ground and to run their users out of the country, do we think the police would fire on the Real Americans?
Yes. And the mainstream media would portray the police as heroes and make epic movies lionizing them for their courage.
From Seattle...
Since the Seattle police (any any civic authority) cannot flatly say to the Islamic community, "Hey, shape up and get rid of these killer nuts among you" they turn on the potential victims - us. They admonish us not to over react, not to treat the murder suspect as a terrorist and by all means not to retaliate against everyday Muslims. Never mind that Seattle has an exemplary contemporary record of hospitable treatment of its immigrant groups. This just shows how political correctness has hogtied our leaders from really facing this horrendous attempt at mass murder...so we find ourselves in the cockeyed position: the more Islamic violence hits our community the more the authorities hold potential victims responsible for not acting or reacting to it...
12:53 PM
Why not save money and just re-run Waco Coverage?
12:39 PM
Something else people have forgotten is called "Leadership"
The idea that Conservative Leadership from the git go, carrying out his Oath of Office and the laws of the land, would not have left us in a different (better) place than we are now, is absurd.
---
"I fear that a majority of the American people are inclined to follow Europe’s lead."
They'll follow Cowardice and Cheese, but not a leader?
I have a higher Opinion of Americans and human nature than you.
1:05 PM PBUH
"I've heard it reported that Israel doesn't want to call up any more reserves because it would be harmful to the "Economy." If that's true, it's Incoherence taken to hitherto unattained heights. "
Following the USA's lead:
Here we act like we were in the
Worst Depression in History in 1993, prior to Bubba and GWB opening the floodgates for another 15 million illegals.
...
As if technology has not advanced, and as if their are not millions of educated people around the world that would love to come here legally.
But they are not welcome, since they are seeking the USA, not Azatlan and the Welfare System.
1:17 PM I believe the larger rockets have around a 400kg Warhead.
Plenty to bring Israel's economy to it's knees, and one wmd warhead away from game over.
At least for life as we know it in the ME.
I consider that significant, to say the least.
"The Lebanese mofos can manage to take them on. "
When Pork goes Airborn.
"3. The IDF will realize that they don't have and have never had a strategic air force, but rather strategic ground forces with a tactical air force"
---
It is more than sufficient to take out all of Baby Assads 500 toy tanks, as well as other toys and soldiers daddy doc gave him.
redaktor, the ability to demoralize a population is a huge military threat. Collapses economies, scatters populations. Just one step down from physical killing.
i think that iran, syria, hamas and hezbollah are fighting several wars ago...
I seem to remember from reading the UN at a different point in time and calls for ceasefires, and the POWER of the UN with the USSR vrs the USA in contention.
Now i see a different world, one where the axis of evil has soft support from russia and china, but not like the Cold war was....
the calls for ceasefire are almost comical if not for the fact that israel and the usa will and do as it please WHEN the evil axis overplays it's hands...
and folks once again, the evil doers have shot their wad prematurely and mis-judged the steel of the west...
how long did the usa under clinton bomb serbia? March 24 to June 11, 1999?
how long has the entire region been softened up by the IDF 18 days?
are there really mass rallys in the arab street that compared to the previous confrontations?
the "street" showed more anger about the cartoons...
hmmm... something is happening...
and I would not want to be the leaders of syria, iran, north korea, hamas or hezbollah (and a few others)
bobalharb,
when you and i and the entire world knows that there is 0% chance of that ever happening, what good are those nuclear weapons or that air force?
Israel has an air force that is fine for use in tactical engagements(dogfights, ground support, etc...)but when it comes to mounting a strategic campaign of the type used in Serbia, they're hopeless.
You need more than f15s and f16s, which are fighters. Israel has no bombers, no heavy bombers, no planes that can really deliverhuge payloads, as seen by their failure to hit the hb bunker in beirut. A b1b or f117 or b2 would have destroyed it, israel barely scratched it.
the air force has failed utterly in this war. its limits have been seen.
rufus, update, they got the TWO top West Bank jihad leaders.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the Seattle shooter was 1) bi-polar & "off his meds" 2) had just lost his disability payments 3) had a gun-carry permit 4) had a religion that promises glory for killing non-co-religionists (*cough*, "Jews").
And now there are six women full of bullet holes, one dead, five whose lives have changed. Six circles of family, friends, associates permanently saddened, terrorized, angered, embittered.
Gotta be some information in there someplace. I mean, besides, don't gather in public places if you are of a target population.
the sad thing is the failed leadership of Israel. That and they haven't been able to publicize their pr efforts. they killed 30+ hb yesterday without a loss, but all you hear about is the 8 they lost on tuesday.
I have no doubt they could hvae gone in in force and within 3-5 days wiped hb out of s. lebanon to the litani. they'd lose maybe a few hundred guys but hb would lose a few thousand and be utterly destroyed. a claer victory.
now, the ceasefire will go up on wednesday with hb holding a victory parade in beirut and having won back the shebba farms ,increased the standing of iran and syria, and changed the game completely.
"the "street" showed more anger about the cartoons...
hmmm... something is happening..."
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Pork,
I mean, what is:
see my link where the quote below is upstream.
The Persian street, other than gummit sponsored "street" is even more that way.
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"Iranians like Heydari believe that their country, ethnically and linguistically Persian, should stay out of the Arabs' fight with Israel and focus on improving living standards at home."
2:06 PM Is that stuff Poison?
rufus,
and if nato could do that in 80 days, we can see why israel has been so ineffective. the 17 days or so of iaf bombing has been equivalent to 2-3 days of nato bombing in terms of ordnnace, payload, number of targets, etc...
the iaf simply is not a strategic arm on the level of nato, not when it only uses conventional munitions.
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