Thursday, May 11, 2006

The rules of war

The Tamil Tigers attacked a Sri Lankan naval transport with seven hundred men on it. The transport was saved by its escorts but not before one of the accompanying warships was itself destroyed. At least seventy persons have died on both sides of the naval battle. The Times of London reports:

The Navy said that 17 crewmen were killed when Tiger suicide bombers rammed into a fast-attack boat off the northern tip of Sri Lanka. It also said that it had sunk 5 rebel vessels, killing about 50 Tamil Tigers. The transporter, which was carrying 710 troops, sought refuge in Indian waters.

“They went for the Pearl Cruise [the transporter] with unarmed soldiers on board and [a truce monitor] flag on the top. It’s a big violation,” said Major General Ulf Henricsson, the head of the Nordic Sri Lanka Monitoring Mission. “It’s almost the same as terminating the ceasefire by will,” he added, saying that there had been shelling in Trincomalee and Sampur in separate attacks in the east of Sri Lanka

The Washington Post has more details.

"About 15 LTTE boats including suicide boats attacked one of our vessels transporting 710 soldiers," Dassanayake said. "Navy fast-attack boats escorting the vessel engaged the Tiger boats and one of them was destroyed by a suicide boat," he said, adding there were about 20 sailors on board the stricken vessel. ... Helen Olafsdottir, spokeswoman for the European-led Sri Lanka Monitoring Mission, said a truce monitor was in the troop carrier with the soldiers. "This is very serious," she told BBC television. "It is getting worse."

Commentary

So much for the Geneva Convention. Diplomats are supposed to be "protected persons" under international law but a whole buildingful of them were blown up at the Canal Hotel in Baghdad on August 19, 2003 by terrorist attackers. According to Wikpedia:

The explosion occurred while Benon Sevan, director of the "Oil for food program," was holding a press conference. Sevan was among the wounded. The explosion damaged a spinal cord treatment center at the hospital nearby and the shockwave was felt a mile away. ... There is speculation that Sérgio Vieira de Mello, the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, may have been specifically targeted in the blast due to the proximity of the explosion to his office. The UN building may have been chosen due to its limited security.

Recently members of the Christian Peacemaker Teams were kidnapped by thugs or terrorists in Iraq, and one of them was killed. The rest were resentfully rescued by Coalition forces.  Now fighting between warlords and Islamists has broken out in Somalia. According to Forbes:

A radical Islamic force battled for a strategic road Thursday in a continuing struggle with secular warlords for control of the northern half of Somalia's capital, which has left at least 130 people dead. ... Militia loyal to the Islamic Court Union, a grouping of radical Islamic leaders banded together in a self-appointed court system, have been fighting since Sunday to capture a strategic road through northern Mogadishu from the secular Alliance for the Restoration of Peace and Counterterrorism. While the alliance has held the road through Sii-Sii, the court union has controlled the neighborhoods on either side.

The alliance accuses the union of having ties to al-Qaida, while the Islamists say the warlords are puppets of the United States. The courts are popular in Mogadishu because in recent years they have provided the only form of governance in the city. ...

Somalia has had no effective central government since then, although a U.N.-backed transitional government has been set up in Baidoa, 150 miles west of Mogadishu. Some of the warlords behind the secular alliance are members of the transitional parliament, though they are fighting the Islamists on their own.

It's doubtful whether either the warlords or the Islamists have much regard for the Laws of War and one wonders what exactly the "U.N.-backed transitional government" actually does. British Defense Secretary John Reid created a stir by suggesting that the Geneva Convention be updated to reflect the realities of terrorism. "The legal constraints upon us have to be set against an enemy that adheres to no constraints whatsoever." It is probably fortunate that a European has posed this question because this ball really belongs in the court of the transnationalists. Any attempts to obtain realistic rules of engagement against terrorists by a US administration will be branded as fascistic. So lets pose the question: how should one deal with combatants who have no regard for ceasefires, women, children, flags of truce, churches, mosques or the Rules of War?

231 Comments:

Blogger chthus said...

"No police, no summons, no courts of law
No proper procedure, no rules of war
No mitigating circumstance
No lawyers fees, no second chance"

- New Model Army "The Hunt"

Eventually, this is what it will come to. Though I suspect it won't be soon enough.

5/11/2006 06:20:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

Declare them "pirates" and summarily execute them. If they want protection in the state of nature, let them raise a victorious army according to the ancient laws. They demonstrate that they do not want quarter, give none, and should be given none.

5/11/2006 06:29:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

kill 'em, kill 'em all.

5/11/2006 06:33:00 PM  
Blogger wretchard said...

I think that the experience of US troops over the past 3 years and put together and reviewed with an open mind might produce good rules of engagement. It would be a mix of moderate duress combined with kindness (kindness is often a good method when used appropriately). It would be something that is not the Geneva Convention but nevertheless a code people could live with and justify. That plus many of the purpose built small-warhead weapons systems, including non-lethal lasers and sonics would be quite useful.

Politics and pig-headed political correctness has created a split-level international morality. The imposition of fantasy standards on those fighting terrorists has created an incentive to cheat. It will lead to a hypocritical system with one set of avowed standards and an underground system of workarounds. In fact, some human rights advocates have argued for absolute nondeviation from the current Geneva while hoping aloud for men who would risk their careers and disobey them when necessary. This was a way of ostensibly preserving "principle" while allowing flexibility. But it was really another way of saying "bring me the head of Garcia but don't say how you got it".

If the UN, NGOs and Europeans get shot to pieces enough and face barbarism in enough places they themselves might cobble together a halfway realistic method of dealing with terrorist combatants.

5/11/2006 07:07:00 PM  
Blogger al fin said...

This type of warfare using suicide targeted explosives and hiding among civilians between attacks, strips these "fighters" of all legal rights and protections. They have no rights under the Geneva convention, or any national or international law. They place themselves totally outside such protections.

Those who cry tears over treatment of jihadis and similar terrorists during confinement should spend several weeks talking to families of the victims of these senseless bombings.

5/11/2006 07:08:00 PM  
Blogger sam said...

And where is the President of Somalia while this is going on? Why, he's in Uganda attending a swearing in ceremony, of course:

11 presidents and 70 representatives of countries and international organisations will attend President Yoweri Museveni’s swearing-in ceremony.

Four of the 11 presidents who confirmed attendance, Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe, Abdullahi Yusuf of Somalia and Ismail Omar Guelleh of Djibouti arrived Thursday evening.


Museveni Swearing-in

5/11/2006 07:10:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

5/11/2006 07:16:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Mr Host,
Captured terrorists are released.
Dr Z, from Eygpt
Mini Z from Jordan
600 Algerian Jihadi just the other week
Tens of thousands in Iraq

In the name of peace, reunification and
the brotherhood of man.

Are ransoms paid for the release of the terrorists?
I'd bet not.

The is no known cure for the contagion but the death of those infected.

A Mohammedan can always renounce the ways of Jihad and find safty in Islam, the Religion of Peace.
It seems none do.

5/11/2006 07:18:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

Just a suggestion

5/11/2006 07:18:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

put a bullet in their heads, wrap them in pig skins, and throw them into the ocean

5/11/2006 07:38:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

put a bullet in their heads, wrap them in pig skins, and throw them into the ocean

5/11/2006 07:38:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

porker,
why pollute the ocean
just burn the bums

5/11/2006 07:40:00 PM  
Blogger allen said...

The Sri Lankans have the same problem as Israel: there is no peace with Islam.

Expect the usual suspects to appear on screen urging Sri Lanka not to behave precipitously or disproportionately, lest the "cycle of violence" spin out of control.

5/11/2006 07:42:00 PM  
Blogger bjbarron said...

"Kill them All"

...as they say, 'God will know his own'.

The pirate idea is a good one.

5/11/2006 07:45:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

Looking at this map one could say Sri Lanka has something in common with Israel, Darfur, The Baltic states, Panski Gorge, the Kashmir region, Liberia, the Ivory Coast, the Philippines, East Timor. Etc, Etc…

5/11/2006 07:57:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

porker,
why pollute the ocean
just burn the bums

I go back to my original thesis...

you hurt the enemy where it hurts them, not where you "wish" it would hurt them..

so if they fear hell, wrap them in pig skin when dead

so if they who lead the islamic word refuse to step up to stopping this, destroy the leaders, bomb the mosques and if needed, BOMB the Black ROCK..

If you DESTROY one of the 5 pillars of Islam, the islamic peoples will KNOW g-d is NOT on their side

time to send a message....

5/11/2006 07:57:00 PM  
Blogger bobalharb said...

Play by their rules, only play harder.

5/11/2006 08:14:00 PM  
Blogger Karridine said...

Wretchard,
You haven't yet addressed Iran's recent, formal Declaration of War against the US...

I have details at Brain Surgery,
and LGF has details...

***
"Those who cry tears over treatment of jihadis and similar terrorists during confinement should spend several weeks talking to families of the victims of these senseless bombings."

Beg to differ: They should have to walk among the torn, the shredded, the screaming, wailing wounded, the shocked and bleeding... trying to scrape pieces of human off their oh-so-clean shoes and hands, as the experience the RESULTS of those senseless bombings!

5/11/2006 08:33:00 PM  
Blogger allen said...

dan,

Your 7:57 PM

You have hit the nail squarely on the head.

I frequently reference Israel because it is just so darned handy, being the perfect microcosm.

What happens in Israel doesn't stay in Israel, as we discover daily.

5/11/2006 08:33:00 PM  
Blogger John Samford said...

The GC applies ONLY to conflicts between those NATIONS that have signed it;
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm

That URL links to the '49 GC. There are 5 of them, I think. I keep that URL because it is the last one the USA joined. There is a '77 GC, but the USA is not a party to that one. The 77 GC was designed by terrorists to protect terrorists and the Senate told the President (Reagan) to not bother sending it up. He said there would be ice skating in hell before he did. Carter wanted it , but he was out of office before it was finished.
"the present Convention shall apply to all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties, even if the state of war is not recognized by one of them."

If you are not a "High Contracting Party", it doesn't apply. Period.
Technically, since Al Qaeda isn't a High Contracting Party, they are not bound to follow the GC, Nor is anyone else fighting them. This POV isn't accepted by the Internationalists, but that is to bad, sicen they are not in power, what they think doesn't matter.
Before the WoT is over, the USA will have to withdraw from the GC as well as the UN. If we don't, we will lose. Both of these treaties were written to fight the last war. The Last war is over, this is a new war, and it's not your daddy's war.
Withdraw from ALL International treaties and make seperate treaties with individual nations. Then After we win this war, we can look at the bulk treaties again.

5/11/2006 08:57:00 PM  
Blogger John Samford said...

I have a 3step plan for winning the WoT in 90 days.
Step 1 Nuke Quom (Qom? Qum?). That is the city where 90% of the Shitte Turbans get their training. Lets call it Islamofascist U.
Step 2 Amputate the left hand and right foot of ALL Captured AQ members. Then send them back to hangout at the Mosque that recruited them. That should really help recruiting.
Step 3 A tit for tat campaign of terror bombing. Everytime there is an Islamic terror attack anywhere. Pick a mosque that preaches Jihad and put a 2,000Lb JDAM on it during friday prayer service. In most Islamic nations the Imams mak their living off the collection plates passed around on Friday. Muslims that didn't want to go to paradise that Friday would go to a different Mosque, one that doesn't preach Jihad. The Imams that preach Jihad would do so hungry. At least until the JDAM hit. Then they wouldn't need food anymore.

5/11/2006 09:08:00 PM  
Blogger Fellow Peacekeeper said...

As observed they are all aleady outside the conventions, and may be dealt with summarily.

The persons the US call "illegal combatants" (in fact persons without protected status under the conventions) under international law can all be executed / abused / imprisoned forever in any way the USA itself deems legal.

In any war prior to WWII they would have been already dealt with summarily as pirates, marauders etc - shot.

How about following the lead of US Army Colonel Rodgers who when fighting Muslim rebels in the Philippines, buried killed Muslim fanatics together with pig carcasses, or beheaded and sewn into pig skins? The corpses of slain Islamoid terrorists could be buried with, or better yet fed to the pigs.

5/11/2006 09:33:00 PM  
Blogger Aristides said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

5/11/2006 09:35:00 PM  
Blogger sam said...

Liberatin Tigers of Tamil Eelam:

LTTE Political Head Mr.Tamilselvan in a strongly worded letter to Sri Lankan Monitoring Mission said today 11th May 2006, that SLMM is demonstrating partiality in protecting Sri Lankan Navy while putting its naval monitors at risk, but at the same time has failed to protect Sea Tigers.

Full text of the letter:

It is a simple truth that any military Cease Fire Agreement is based on a balance of power and in order to maintain the CFA that military balance of power must remain. Sea Tigers existed prior to CFA and it contributed to the balance of power that resulted in the CFA...

The three letters sent to SLMM requesting it to refrain from boarding SLN vessels:

Letter one sent on 18th April:

Re: SLMM Naval Monitors on board Sri Lankan Naval Vessels In recent times Sri Lankan Naval vessels boats have carried out several attacks on areas in our control along the Northeast coast. There were two such very serious attacks along the Trincomalee coastal areas
...

Letter Two sent on 10 May

Re: SLMM Naval Monitors in Sri Lankan Naval Vessels We refer to your letter dated 18 April 2006, in response to our earlier letter where we requested SLMM monitors to refrain from boarding Sri Lankan Naval vessels for the sake of the safety and security of the SLMM monitors. We thank you for this reply dated 18 April...

Letter three sent on 11 May 2006

Subject: SLMM Monitors on board Sri Lankan Naval Vessels We have on several occasions verbally informed you to refrain from boarding Sri Lankan Naval vessels. We have also given this request in writing to you twice so far...

LTTE Political Head

5/11/2006 09:36:00 PM  
Blogger Faeless said...

It's sad to contemplate but probably the most effective way is to target their families and friends

For every suicide bomber, kill their entire village.

5/11/2006 09:59:00 PM  
Blogger Tim said...

Sad as it is, we won't really win this war until we are fully prepared to terrorize the terrorists.

5/11/2006 10:20:00 PM  
Blogger sam said...

Fatherly lessons from President Ahmadinejad:

Liberals are showing their true colors again for all to see. No amount of provocation is ever enough for them.

We just need a little more sensitivity training. We just need to open our eyes, hearts and minds to the "very good ideas" of this "thoughtful" Iranian "teacher."

Fatherly Lessons

5/11/2006 10:35:00 PM  
Blogger Starling David Hunter said...

Wretchard asked: "how should one deal with combatants who have no regard for ceasefires, women, children, flags of truce, churches, mosques or the Rules of War?"

Chthus: "No police, no summons, no courts of law..."

Dan: "summarily execute them..."

DRat: " kill 'em all"

PRFA: "put a bullet in their heads..."

Dan: Nguyen_Van_Lem them

bobalharb: "Play by their rules, only play harder."

faeless: "For every suicide bomber, kill their entire village."

fellow peacekeeper: "How about following the lead of US Army Colonel Rodgers..."

What a tough crowd. I have always wanted to do stand-up comedy but the fear of having even one of you guys in the audience is enough to make me give up on the idea... completely. But seriously...

I understand the desire to want to punish one's enemies, to make them pay. Without it, civilization as we now know it might not have lasted this long. After all, you can only turn the other cheek so many times before you find you are holding your head underneath your arm like a football.

That said, it seems to me that there is one very important barrier to many of the suggestions that were offered. It's not the outcry of pacifists or the inevitable reporting in a media not at all sympathetic to the cause. It's not the fear of our soldiers being brought up on war crimes charges. It's not even the darkening effecting such behavior might have on the light of our own soldier's souls. Rather, it's the loss of information.

It seems to me that killing unlawful combatants on the spot deprives coalition forces of the ability to ascertain what said combatants know about the locations, plans, capabilities, etc. of their fellow travelers.

My understanding is that this kind of information has proved very useful in the past and in the present, i.e. that lots of bad guys get caught this way.

There is a secondary problem with this point, however. Obtaining information usually requires interrogation, sometimes lasting weeks, months, or years. And we all know what kind of trouble that has produced.

Still, I see a cost benefit analysis here and can anticipate conditions where summary execution might be preferred to lengthy interrogation and holding in secret and not so secret prisons.

5/11/2006 10:41:00 PM  
Blogger ed said...

Hmmmm.

So lets pose the question: how should one deal with combatants who have no regard for ceasefires, women, children, flags of truce, churches, mosques or the Rules of War?

Hanging, sir.

5/11/2006 11:06:00 PM  
Blogger Mike H. said...

Mr. Hunter, as much as I agree about the intelligence, the jihadi's should be taken out and executed as soon as they are of no more use. There are two reasons for this,
1) There would be no attempts to release them by the courts or have them released by other means,
2) Their desire is to claim their reward for devoted service to Allah and we would be cretins to deny them this journey.
Their only value now is as a conduit of information, any other value they may have had as human beings they have already shed.

5/11/2006 11:40:00 PM  
Blogger blert said...

What is hard to face is that we are so effective under the GC that cheating is the only way the bad guys can stay on the map.

The minute they play 'fair' it's over.

....

The Thirty Years War was the last European conflict without ANY restraints.

Notably it revolved around religion until it shifted into power balance: France crossed sectarian lines.

....

The desire for an enemy's blood is always balanced against one's own bread.

What is so wrong with our tactics/ strategy is that we are not hitting the unlawful combatants in the wallet.

Instead, they become enthused with brigandage. One wonders where warfare ends and dis-organized crime begins for the islamist.

Note their propensity to feed on narcotics, rackets, kidnapping and the rest.

Ultimately, only astonishing levels of collateral damage will deter such players. It must be their families and tribes.

This is where DNA and databases kick in. At the genomic level, anonymity must be denied.

I would strongly recommend back tracing belt bombers via their DNA and revenging against the family entire.

The gloves are off. Nothing else is working.

It's a lot less sloppy than fire bombing Tokyo, Dresden, Hamburg....

5/11/2006 11:45:00 PM  
Blogger sam said...

Just in case some haven't seen it:

The Letter

5/12/2006 12:16:00 AM  
Blogger 2164th said...

Gentleman, this is not personal, this is business. The visceral reaction of most of you is heartening and pleasing, as it indicates I am with a band of brothers. But you will not teach the Islamists a lesson. This harlot is beyond redemption and she knows the tricks of her trade. Radical Islam is the HIV of human religion. It is incurable, contagious, dissipating and leads to dementia and death. There is no known cure and it is mutating daily. We are being tested by a rapidly spreading depravity, winning engagements but losing the war. We started losing at the beginning by lying to ourselves over what the war was about. War on Terror, what a lovely euphemism, the "have a nice day" of PC. The jihadists know what this is about. They are going to destroy the infidel. They have sent us an invitation and it is time to RSVP.

Now we have been cautioned about the law. There is however THE LAW. The most sacred human law is above any court, convention or treaty. It is the Law of Survival. It is the ultimate form of justice and it is time to engage. We know who the enemy is. They told us. We know where they meet. We know a lot about them. It is time to go silent and go dark. No speeches, no threats, no lawyers, no mercy. Isolate and eliminate the radical clerics, financial supporters, politicians, tacticians, academics, theorists, and all supporters of radical Islam. We will find Islamic friends and allies to do most of the work. There is no other way to win this war.

5/12/2006 12:39:00 AM  
Blogger Dr. Zaius said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

5/12/2006 01:44:00 AM  
Blogger Dr. Zaius said...

In fact, some human rights advocates have argued for absolute nondeviation from the current Geneva...

What about the 'current' Nuremberg?

Or is that 'quaint' as well?

5/12/2006 01:49:00 AM  
Blogger Dr. Zaius said...

Read this please:

http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/005109.php

Thank You.

5/12/2006 01:55:00 AM  
Blogger the mad fiddler said...

Definition: “Dar al-harb” - areas where Muslims are in the minority. House of War
Definition: “Dar al-Islam” — the house of submission or the house of God; the territories where Shari’ah rules Muslim communities.
Definition: “Dar al-Kufr” — abode of disbelief , prompting Da’wah (calling to Islam)

It would be fascinating to know from the various posters if any can identify a moment when they “turned” — i.e., saw clearly for the first time that the Islamic terrorists are beyond any human covenant and must be dealt with not with hatred, but with the passionless dispatch needed for dealing with a rabies-infected animal approaching your children.

On several occasions I’ve posted some blather that most of us in the Western industrialized democracies simply have no grasp of the way most of the rest of the world lives — gramma slowly dying of cancer in the living room while mom cooks dinner over a wood fire, the kids assemble tennis shoe uppers for the local Nike subcontractor, and the goats nibble at straws poking out of the mud and dung walls.

On further reflection, I see I’ve been an idiot. If that cultural gulf were actually the basis of *our* conflicts with terrorists, then we should expect to be in conflict with terrorists being spawned by every impoverished third-world culture on the globe. That is precisely the racist stereotyping that many people in America use to discount the vast majority of decent, law-abiding residents of American inner-city ghettos. And of course, no such thing is happening.

It seems redundant to point out that the Prophet Mohammed during his lifetime commanded numerous military assaults on those who opposed his vision, routinely ordering summary executions of captives. In the first three decades after his death, the leadership of the new religion changed hands three times, with each new leader ascending by assassinating his predecessor. By 732— a scant century after the death of Muhammed — Islam had already been spread by military onslaught from the Arabian Peninsula north into Turkey and Syria, and west across North Africa. That year an Arab Islamic army of invasion moving into France from the Iberian Peninsula was turned back by Charles Martel and his Frankish armies at the Battle of Tours (Poitiers). What we are experiencing in this time is simply the continuation of Islamic expansion of Dar al Islam by the subjugation of Dar al Harb, which has been in progress for some fourteen centuries.

It is finally undeniable that the totalitarian barbarity of Islamic Jihadism is a defining characteristic of Islam, cropping up wherever a significant Islamic population has arisen within a non-Islamic culture. The most casual scan of weekly news from around the globe shows that Islamic terrorists are busy murdering, shooting, stabbing, raping, hacking, exploding, maiming, torturing, beheading, and generally abusing Hindus in New Delhi, Mumbai, Varanasi, Srinagar and Pakistan, Animists and Christians in Darfur, Coptics in Egypt, Zoroastrians and followers of Baha’u’llah in Persia, Jews, Catholics, Episcopalians, Scientologists, New Age adherents of Edgar Cayce, Baptists, agnostics, atheists, journalists, grocers, and Liberal Democrats everywhere else.

But we must remember they are “equal-opportunity” terrorists, murdering fellow Muslims in even greater numbers, to intimidate them into submission.

Almost any culture can steer some of its own to extremist attitudes and behavior — America has had its share of Unabombers and Timothy McVeigh’s. But Islamic terrorism, Jihad, the barbarity that defines Shariah — these have returned to the fore as the Islamic Arab cultures wallow in the greatest abundance, wealth and power they have ever known.

Meanwhile, do they use this wealth to create, to educate themselves, to become self-sufficient? While some of the oil wealth has been applied to construction projects, the arab states have mostly become massive welfare societies, hiring (and despising) alien nationals to do their menial jobs, electing Koranic studies rather than engineering degrees. Farouk El-Baz, member of the US National Academy of Engineering, points out that “during the past two decades, South Korea registered in the US over 44 times the number of patents from all Arab countries combined...” and “ ... the number of books translated in all 22 Arab countries is equal to one-fifth of those translated into Greek.” (http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2004/710/feature.htm)

This is monstrously perverse.

5/12/2006 01:56:00 AM  
Blogger the mad fiddler said...

Definition: “Dar al-harb” - areas where Muslims are in the minority. House of War
Definition: “Dar al-Islam” — the house of submission or the house of God; the territories where Shari’ah rules Muslim communities.
Definition: “Dar al-Kufr” — abode of disbelief , prompting Da’wah (calling to Islam)

It would be fascinating to know from the various posters if any can identify a moment when they “turned” — i.e., saw clearly for the first time that the Islamic terrorists are beyond any human covenant and must be dealt with not with hatred, but with the passionless dispatch needed for dealing with a rabies-infected animal approaching your children.

On several occasions I’ve posted some blather that most of us in the Western industrialized democracies simply have no grasp of the way most of the rest of the world lives — gramma slowly dying of cancer in the living room while mom cooks dinner over a wood fire, the kids assemble tennis shoe uppers for the local Nike subcontractor, and the goats nibble at straws poking out of the mud and dung walls.

On further reflection, I see I’ve been an idiot. If that cultural gulf were actually the basis of *our* conflicts with terrorists, then we should expect to be in conflict with terrorists being spawned by every impoverished third-world culture on the globe. That is precisely the racist stereotyping that many people in America use to discount the vast majority of decent, law-abiding residents of American inner-city ghettos. And of course, no such thing is happening.

It seems redundant to point out that the Prophet Mohammed during his lifetime commanded numerous military assaults on those who opposed his vision, routinely ordering summary executions of captives. In the first three decades after his death, the leadership of the new religion changed hands three times, with each new leader ascending by assassinating his predecessor. By 732— a scant century after the death of Muhammed — Islam had already been spread by military onslaught from the Arabian Peninsula north into Turkey and Syria, and west across North Africa. That year an Arab Islamic army of invasion moving into France from the Iberian Peninsula was turned back by Charles Martel and his Frankish armies at the Battle of Tours (Poitiers). What we are experiencing in this time is simply the continuation of Islamic expansion of Dar al Islam by the subjugation of Dar al Harb, which has been in progress for some fourteen centuries.

It is finally undeniable that the totalitarian barbarity of Islamic Jihadism is a defining characteristic of Islam, cropping up wherever a significant Islamic population has arisen within a non-Islamic culture. The most casual scan of weekly news from around the globe shows that Islamic terrorists are busy murdering, shooting, stabbing, raping, hacking, exploding, maiming, torturing, beheading, and generally abusing Hindus in New Delhi, Mumbai, Varanasi, Srinagar and Pakistan, Animists and Christians in Darfur, Coptics in Egypt, Zoroastrians and followers of Baha’u’llah in Persia, Jews, Catholics, Episcopalians, Scientologists, New Age adherents of Edgar Cayce, Baptists, agnostics, atheists, journalists, grocers, and Liberal Democrats everywhere else.

But we must remember they are “equal-opportunity” terrorists, murdering fellow Muslims in even greater numbers, to intimidate them into submission.

Almost any culture can steer some of its own to extremist attitudes and behavior — America has had its share of Unabombers and Timothy McVeigh’s. But Islamic terrorism, Jihad, the barbarity that defines Shariah — these have returned to the fore as the Islamic Arab cultures wallow in the greatest abundance, wealth and power they have ever known.

Meanwhile, do they use this wealth to create, to educate themselves, to become self-sufficient? While some of the oil wealth has been applied to construction projects, the arab states have mostly become massive welfare societies, hiring (and despising) alien nationals to do their menial jobs, electing Koranic studies rather than engineering degrees. Farouk El-Baz, member of the US National Academy of Engineering, points out that “during the past two decades, South Korea registered in the US over 44 times the number of patents from all Arab countries combined...” and “ ... the number of books translated in all 22 Arab countries is equal to one-fifth of those translated into Greek.” (http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2004/710/feature.htm)

This is monstrously perverse.

5/12/2006 01:56:00 AM  
Blogger Dr. Zaius said...

"etc etc is a new kind of war...blah blah"

Well, not really. You've only had about 65 years of experience.

http://statecraft.org/

Instruments of Statecraft: US Guerrilla Warfare, Counterinsurgency and Counterterrorism 1940-1990.


"The 1960 Special Forces manual, Counter-Insurgency Operations (unnumbered), combined the traditional approach to counterinsurgency, as applied by colonial powers and occupying armies alike, with guerrilla tactics. The cover of the manual, which was part of the collection of counterinsurgency materials President Kennedy kept in his office..."

"The Hunter-killer Teams described in the 1960 manual differ from the From Ch. 9:

Korean War model in their size and makeup. The Hunter-killer Teams, like the Philippines Nenita units, the British countergangs in the Kenyan Emergency, and the French counterguerrilla irregulars of Indochina and Algeria, dressed and operated as "guerrillas":

"Personnel wear local indigenous civilian clothes or nondescript military attire and possess items of Red insignia on uniforms for use when appropriate." Their mission was to conduct long-range reconnaissance and to "hunt down and destroy" the adversary."


---

Hmm...this last paragraph sounds like the "enemy combatant" designation.

Let's read that last part again, just to make sure:

"Personnel wear local indigenous civilian clothes or nondescript military attire..."

A Special Forces manual from 1960 you say ?

5/12/2006 02:05:00 AM  
Blogger Dr. Zaius said...

This is monstrously perverse.

So is Ahmed Chalabi.

Chalabi giving secrets to Iran! Who cares! Let's make him Deputy Prime Minister!

In June 2004, it was reported that Chalabi gave U.S. state secrets to Iran in April, including the fact that one of the United States' most valuable sources of Iranian intelligence was a broken Iranian code used by their spy services. Chalabi allegedly learned of the code through a drunk American involved in the code-breaking operation. Chalabi has denied all of the charges, and nothing has ever come of the charges nor do the Iraqi or U.S. governments currently seemed very interested in pursuing them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Chalabi

5/12/2006 02:12:00 AM  
Blogger Buckhead said...

Deny the jihadis entry into The Great Playboy Mansion In The Sky with judicious use of pork and pork products in our munitions, or the persistent rumor of same.

After getting a proper fatwa to do so, of course, from a cleric ordained by a suitable online Imam Degree Program.

This sounds like a typically flip remark, but I'm as serious as a heart attack.

Merely killing them is an insufficient deterrent,

5/12/2006 03:12:00 AM  
Blogger trish said...

"It is time to go silent and go dark. No speeches, no threats, no lawyers, no mercy."

- 2164th

It is well past time to do so.

It is the ONLY way to carry out a long war, and the ONLY hope at all of shortening it.

That this was not pursued from the beginning, and is not, in any systematic fashion, being done now, is unfortunate, to say the least.

Let those who can, do. Let those who can't, come home. All else is a tragic waste.

5/12/2006 05:01:00 AM  
Blogger stackja1945 said...

At the start of any war the aggressor has the edge as they do not observe any rules. At the end of WW2 Churchill just wanted to shoot the Nazis. Earlier Tojo killed at least one diplomat. So the present situation is not new.

5/12/2006 05:08:00 AM  
Blogger Dan said...

Starling,

I appreciate your thoughts as to lenity and civilization. But a crucial aspect of civilizations are its frontiers and its march lords, if not its actual walls. Law is such a wall and frontier. Evidently there is a cultural moment afoot that requires a good old-fashioned slaughter. These people are so beyond the bounds, they have set themselves in the state of nature, and ought to know there is a Leviathan whom no cruelty can undermine. At this moment, we have a good Leviathan, and although Lincoln said something like we ought to have the courage to act as though Right makes Might, power is its core. Summary execution would be Justice. Islam respects Justice; Islam in fact Is Justice. Their Justice is Strength. That is all. Imitatio Muhammad. Let us visit our strength upon them, and so our justice. "You can destroy Saddam in 3 weeks but you can't catch a man like Zarqawi? Impossible! Zarqawi is a CIA plant, supported by the Americans and brought out when they need PR. America is trying to destroy us." Paraphrase from a conversation in a barber shop recorded by Iraq the Model recently. They don't totally misunderstand justice; they aren't animals. But they sure are !&^#@(% stupid, especially about international affairs, and we must begin by repelling the barbarians, annihilating them and their pastures, and repairing the wall. The global peasants will respect it; they always love the king. Declaring these idiots pirates and authorizing their executions will be our farthest post. Someone seems to have uprooted the last one that was put down.

5/12/2006 05:10:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...

dr. zaius,

Your 2:12 AM - Ahmed Chalabi

When it comes to Mr. Chalabi, all you have proven is your personal animus.

Granted, disparagement of the enemy holds a time-honored place within the "rules of war". If that is your purpose, say so and throw us some red meat.

5/12/2006 05:35:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Catch the last paragraph, especially.

Indonesia has a population about the size of the USA, and is a third the size.

Also making the rounds is Hugo Chavez, who had a (reportedly) "friendly" meeting with the Pope in the last day or two.

This thing is growing. If the Little Persian has a hundred million twenty-something Indonesians behind him--well, he will have to change his Caliphate ideas, or be disposed of. Or, measure your kids for turbans.

5/12/2006 05:36:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...

trish,

Your 5:01 AM - "Let those who can, do."

As an advocate of a muscular human intelligence arm, you may support my recommendation of establishing in Iraq a vigorous cultural emersion program for the troops. With even a rudimentary grasp of a foreign language, all sorts of useful information can be garnered from nothing more than a leisurely stroll down the street on market day. Given our crying need for competent linguists, I hope DoD will not ignore this golden opportunity.

5/12/2006 05:44:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Want MultiCulti? Fine, here's you a shiny new Persian-model Hitler--complete with orgiastic crowds!

5/12/2006 05:46:00 AM  
Blogger Papa Bear said...

A long time ago, a Transylvanian nobleman named Vlad Tepes had a long-running problem with neighboring Turks trying to overrun his land.

He had accumulated about 20,000 Turkish prisoners of war in prior battles. He took those 20K prisoners and had them impaled on a field in the path of the invading Turk Army. The Turks came upon the field, saw a couple of square miles of impaled Turks in their path, and essentially decided "Man, this is one cold and crazy MoFo", turned around and left.

Vlad (better known as Count Dracula, "The Dragon") had spent some years as a prisoner of the Turks, and learned their secret: although Islam preaches that death in battle will gain you heaven, the Turks were as intimidated as anybody else by the idea of a slow and agonizing death.

Vlad had figured out what his enemies feared, and used it against them.

I would think that one modern thing that would strike fear into the terrorists would be to kill their minds, but not their bodies. Visualize the reaction if terrorists were dumped back in their home villages after being given a lobotomy. Still alive but unable to perform any function. Having to be cared for and cleaned up after.

5/12/2006 05:52:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Little known fact, Vlad the Impaler had the full backing of the Church, carried the papal title "Defender of the Faith". Nothing complicated about it, he was simply keeping the Ottomans held up--out of Europe/Christendom--at the Transylvanian approaches.

5/12/2006 05:59:00 AM  
Blogger trish said...

Who can make that liesurely stroll, allen? Certainly not "troops" as most understand it.

"Troops" do not stroll anywhere, but behind the wire.

And facility with the language is not going to enable them to do otherwise.

5/12/2006 06:05:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...

buddy larsen,

Now, buddy, this is what I consider the fine Art of War: “TOP-level Australian officials have told their Indian counterparts Canberra will consider selling uranium to New Delhi even if India refuses to sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.” That should guarantee some restless nights in the Imperial Palace.

And, dear to my heart, “THE nation's defence chief has endorsed plans to recruit older Australians into the military.” Yes, siree, Bobby, as I once advised a young Turk, “I can do almost anything I could do in my youth; I just have to do it slower. Occasionally this is considered a blessing.” Bless your heart June Pointer.

5/12/2006 06:09:00 AM  
Blogger trish said...

Let those who can operate in silence and dark, do so.

Let those who can't, come home.

Because those who can't are getting a raw deal. And so are we.

5/12/2006 06:14:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Allen, yes, the naturalness of the India/Australia/Japan/USA alliance is a great source of comfort.

5/12/2006 06:21:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

CNBC is breaking "As many as 200 feared dead in Nigerian oil pipeline explosion".

5/12/2006 06:30:00 AM  
Blogger exhelodrvr said...

MIke H et al,
The problem with executing someone as soon as they are of no more use, or executing them on the spot, will encourage them to become suicide bombers. While I don't have a problem with it ethically, I wonder if in the long run it would hurt us.
In the past, destroying a village that a terrorist comes from doesn't tend to deter them. Look at the French Underground (no, I am not calling them terrorists!) vs the Nazis during WWII as an example.

5/12/2006 06:37:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...

trish,

Your 6:05 AM

I take your point and agree. My point was not well made and fell short of its goal.

“Know your enemy” was wisely recommended by Sun Tzu. Iraq offers a perfectly unique learning laboratory. No matter how limited, thousands of American troops make daily contact with Iraqis. Were these troops given, let’s say, two hours per duty day of cultural immersion, then, even limited contact might prove rewarding to human intelligence. From formal training to contact with native speakers, some troops would inevitably be observed to demonstrate facility. These troops would be channeled into advanced programs.

I am aware of the momentary impossibility of American troops being able to wander at will, as many will do tomorrow morning at the Kaiserplatz farmers market in Kaiserslaurten. I was attempting to make a point illustratively. At some future date, however, some of our newly minted linguists may have the chance to travel around Kuwait or Dubai, for example. Who knows what they will see and hear using their widened cultural perspectives?

In my haste at “emersion” this morning, my own linguistic “immersion” failed me. Please pardon

5/12/2006 06:37:00 AM  
Blogger Promethea said...

2164th (12:39 am) . . .

You said re the "Law of Survival": "We know who the enemy is. They told us. We know where they meet. We know a lot about them. It is time to go silent and go dark. No speeches, no threats, no lawyers, no mercy. Isolate and eliminate the radical clerics, financial supporters, politicians, tacticians, academics, theorists, and all supporters of radical Islam. We will find Islamic friends and allies to do most of the work."

This is the kind of thinking I like. It conforms to what I know about how WW2 was fought.

There are so many ways to "go dark. No speeches, no threats, etc." The financial supporters--abroad and at home--should be taken down--financially and physically.

Starling David Hunter . . .

I hope you share some of the opinions you quoted of posters on this blog with your students in Dubai. They should understand before it's too late that Americans will do whatever it takes to survive. Your students shouldn't be confused about whether or not to support Islamism.

5/12/2006 06:43:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

ditto, trish,
we've been saying it for years now.

President will have be giving a big speach on Monday, about US Border Security.
The House just authorized using the Army to secure the Borders.

Well, we're ahead of the curve, at Belmont, again.

Now back to our regularly scheduled topic

5/12/2006 06:48:00 AM  
Blogger RWE said...

Perhaps such tactics are reflective not merely of battlefield realities - i.e., we can clean their clock in a fight that is even 10% traditional by "law" - but a basic attitude toward human relations.

The Ayatollah Khomeni openly declared war on the U.S. in October 1987, but apparently was not surprised when Iran was not turned into radioactive slag 30 minutes later.

The current "President" of Iran calls for the destruction of Isreal and the general extermination of democratic society, worldwide, but is downright offended if we even suggest we might defend ourselves and our allies.

Osama Bin Laden calls for the triumph of Islamic radicalism but does not seem to think that this should result in the outlawing of the entire religion and the production-line style elimination of its worshippers.

These people think about "war" in a basically different way, as a method of continuous existance rather than something to be gotten over with ASAP. So, given that, they have different rules than we do.

5/12/2006 06:59:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

buddy,
A strike in Nigeria today, Ecuador last month, both against Oil infrastructure.

Niether in the ME Region.

Connect the dots, it's not a Regional War. When the escalation begins, be prepared.
The Boy Scouts are, but then again, they have adult leadership.

5/12/2006 07:07:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

I'm wondering why Nigeria is getting so little MSM coverage--an american oilfield hand was murdered a couple days ago, simultaneous with 3 Italians kidnap/released. Nigeria is a huge exporter, and it's the light sweet, too. Shell for one and several others have pulled people out, and the artificial production degrade is up to around 20% reportedly. This extra crude spot-price buck or three or ten or twenty--prices being set at the margin, by auction--is paying a breathtaking cash premium, daily--that's daily--to bad guys. Wot a racket--especially the part hiding inside a major world religion.

5/12/2006 07:21:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...

I hope no one will be offended; I feel your pain and find myself daily among a righteously incensed mob, screaming, “Burn the witches!” Unfortunately, we cannot win the GWOT by holding to the notion that it will ever be possible to burn ALL the witches. But, the goals of the GWOT can be rapidly advanced if we can burn SOME of the witches.

What witches must we burn in the interest of the GWOT? Well, why not start with the leadership of every Islamic organization that has ever expressed the desire to “burn the Great and Little Satans.” Syria is chock-full of such guys (and gals, for that matter – don’t want to insensitively leave qualified candidates out of the running). So are Hamburg, London, and Los Angeles. Oh, and lest I forget some prime specimens daily in the news, how about the leadership of Hamas and Hezbollah?

Obviously, the sensitivities of some of allies prevent the blatant melting of witches on the streets of Hamburg and London. Since some legal eagles won’t admit to the simple expedient of eavesdropping in the US, active, extra-judicial pest control would be out of the question. In such instances, we must rely on the deep and dark cover posited by some correspondents and hope that “Buffy” doesn’t get caught without the administration having deniability.

In most parts of the world, the UN has unwittingly helped us out: there is no law, save expediency. Consequently, “some” witches can be dealt with with the same cavalier attitude of the French towards Greenpeace or the Ivory Coast. As usual, there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth, but this too will pass.

For the sake of efficiency, I would advise that most witches go to the gibbet in the dead of night. However, one of the flaws of the administration in the GWOT to date has been its failure to throw some juicy morsels of red meat to the public. Therefore, some warlocks should be vaporized in broad daylight in the most gauche, gaudy manner possible, with the message going out to the patient US public, “Yeah, we fried that SOB just for you. Stay tuned for next week’s exciting auto-da-fé starring Abdul of Indonesia. Until then, have a great week and G-d bless the United States of America.”

Offensive? You bet, but Sun Tzu never claimed war was beanbag or tea time at the club. “Get’er done!”

5/12/2006 07:22:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

The battle against the Mohammedans is unlike any other.
We do not attack the Mohammedan logistic train, their bases, supply depots or manpower reserves.

Instead the Enemy only exists when he is actively engaged with US, unless an Arrest Warrant is available, naming the Individual.

That's why it's become a "long war", one in which Time is on the Enemy's side, according to Mr Bush's past presentations and speaches.

We have been fighting on the Enemy's terms.
We have not been serious about the Conflict, look to the empty civilian billets in Iraq for proof.

5/12/2006 07:24:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Wonder how Hugo and the Little Persian are getting around, on their "Death to America" world tour?

5/12/2006 07:32:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

whose side "time" is on is the key question. Reports run the gamut a to z. Islam turning the jihadis? Yes, many experts and much anecdotal evidence suggests. If this is so, then the Long War is probably the strategy--as the Short War will surely be a global upheaval.

5/12/2006 07:41:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Nigeria, Ecuador, Bolivia, Indonesia
These places are not in the percieved "Story Line", buddy.

That is why they are "ignored".

Of no "real" consequence, you know.

Did you not read the 9-11 Commission report? What ever does not fit the preconcieved "Plan" discard as unneeded.

The Army in during Op Anaconda in Afghanistan, the FBI pre9-11, even the 9-11 Commission itself, with regards Able Danger.

The MSM all the time.
Stay on Message, do not let facts intercede

5/12/2006 07:47:00 AM  
Blogger DanMyers said...

Ash, Cedarford - Where are you? This thread is beginning to look very one-sided.. Other than that, sounds like sanctioned death squads are the order of the day. We seem to be in general agreement about the prosecution of the war, the failure of the leadership to prosecute correctly and methods... A debate/pissin' match seems to be in order..

Can't remember when all have been in such general agreement. Demographic shift?

5/12/2006 07:55:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

I believe Mr Bush, buddy, he's the guy with "all" the data.
He said time is on the Enemy's side. State of the Union, as I recall.

rwe hit the nail, the Mohammedans expect and enjoy a steady course of "Limited War".
We have been feeding them that diet for decades. At current levels, they can continue to consume as much as we serve them.

We need to force feed them enough to choke, or the Mohammedans will win, eventually. They are expanding, the West contracting.
Demographics pretty much guarentees that course will be stayed.
Time is on their side
Mr Bush is not a liar.

5/12/2006 07:55:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...

buddy larsen,

Your 7:32 AM - "Hugo" (and Yamamoto)

Some here at the Belmont Club are clearly on the upper decile of the Bell Curve. You, sir, are among that august group.

Like me, you may have noticed that the elite of the Islamic world have zero interest in self-immolation. Swiss bankers and Scandinavian "escorts" love the men from Medina. An unapologetic ding here, followed by an unapologetic bang there, and what do you get? Well, for one thing, an unmolested stroll in London.

Let's hope that others use your link and make the connection. Sun Tzu would be proud.

5/12/2006 07:57:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

no, danmyers, a return to the hypothetical.

disagreement, here, stems from the perception of the current realities, not the desire to win the war.

5/12/2006 08:00:00 AM  
Blogger Jamie Irons said...

Buddy wrote:

This extra crude spot-price buck or three or ten or twenty--prices being set at the margin, by auction--is paying a breathtaking cash premium, daily--that's daily--to bad guys. Wot a racket--especially the part hiding inside a major world religion...

Now I think of oil prices as a market signal that is telling us about supply and demand (duh), and I have always been impressed by American abilities to respond intelligently and creatively to such signals. Furthermore, I have no illusions about the short-term prospects of "alternative energies," except possibly nuclear ones, to bring oil prices down.

But I am puzzled as to why we have let ourselves get into such a fix, and why there seems to be so little effort to do whatever could be done (tar sands and oil shales, ANWR, continental shelf drilling) to affect the margins in the way the bad guys seem to be doing so efficiently.

Jamie Irons

5/12/2006 08:10:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

buddy,
your 7;41 makes post has, to me, a glaring hole in it.
It assumes we have the decision making power to define the conduct of the war, that we have the inititive.
That is plainly not the case.
The US has been in a "reactive" mode for the entire conflict. Indeed if not for 9-11 there would be no Conflict, for US.
Even in Iraq, we ended Combat Operations well before the "War" was won, but then did not depart.
Giving our enemies time to regroup, reorganize and respond to US tactics.
Now we are reacting to Iraqi political concerns, not the Military aspects of the greater War.

The ascension of Mr al-Sadr to Defender of Baghdad will be seen for what it is, someday.

Time is fleeting, we have election cycles and an impatient people.
The "Long War" strategy is doomed to fail, there is no precedent for it, in US history.

Once a War is engaged it should be waged, decisively or not engaged at all.

5/12/2006 08:12:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Perceptions get argued, but discord mainly centers around reactions to perceptions.

"Yes, but that's not how to frame it!"

Allen, unlike more-or-less line-of-sight M2 .50 cal 1943 fire, nowadays any sort of missile can "misfire" and cause a regrettable accident.

5/12/2006 08:19:00 AM  
Blogger John Samford said...

"The problem with executing someone as soon as they are of no more use, or executing them on the spot, will encourage them to become suicide bombers."
ROFLMAO.
How can they be suicied bombers when they are already dead? If you mean having their relatives become suicide bomberrs, then so what? Please show how not killing them will prevent their relatives from becoming suicide bombers. I having trouble following your logic train here. Don't stop, the amusement value is a fair trade for the effort involved.

5/12/2006 08:23:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...

deseret rat,

Your 7:24 AM - We have been fighting on the Enemy's terms.

Bingo!!!

Sun Tzu said, "Know your enemy." More importantly, he said, "Know yourself."

For decades, we have tacitly, meekly, permitted our adversaries to define us. The classic case, and one readily applicable to Islam, is the Mexican invasion across our southern border.

Have you ever heard a politician of national prominence tell Mexico to solve ITS problem of illegal immigration? No, we have let the Mexicans define the problem as OUR immigration problem. Their maladministration identifies us and our government, the MSM, and some here blindly acquiesce.

Now, consider who is framing the premises and identities in the ME? - Hamas, Hezbollah, the Muslim Brotherhood etc, etc, etc, ad infinitum, ad nauseum. This surrender of the moral integrity is not unique to this administration; it has been part and parcel of every American administration since that of Mr. Truman.

5/12/2006 08:24:00 AM  
Blogger trish said...

"there is no precedent for it, in US history."

Here's your precedent.

5/12/2006 08:27:00 AM  
Blogger RWE said...

Desert Rat: Do you recall the original Star Trek Episode where the Enterpise goes to a planet that has been at war with another one for decade? They had entered into an agreement where attacks are simulated, and they kill their own citizens to avoid the messy business of actually blowing things up? They had established their own Laws of War that ensured that it kept going with a minuimum of fuss and bother.

Capt Kirk ended the war by forcing things to get messy.

In many ways, that is what we are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan: forcing things to get messy in order to get the war over with.

I vote to get even messier.

5/12/2006 08:38:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Since the birth of the Department of Defense, allen.

Do away with the War Department and
promote "defense"
which by definition never "wins" by defeating the enemy, but by "not losing"

The string of non Victories that have accompanied the Dept of Defense is staggering when viewed in that context.
Korea, 'Nam, Kosovo to name but the famous.

The "big" battle, with the Soviets was won without a shot fired at the Soviets. But the cost was the loss of a War fighting ethic so vital to victorious Armies.
The ability to identify, close with and destroy the Enemy.

The DoD has yet to destroy a foe and win a War. Outside the Caribe

To expect more in the Mohammedan Wars is oximoranic

5/12/2006 08:39:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

rat, it's still the same conundrum--blood is thick, and the Short war will enlist us some untold number of Ahmed Sixpacks, world-wide. And, thanks to western economic freedoms and globalization, there's a hostage on every street corner in every city in the world (a bank, a Mickey D, a western union office)--and lots of westerners and their families, too. That's the argument--a much stronger need for an immediate decision will be needed before such can be overwritten.

Jamie--there's some element of truth on the attack on "Big Oil"--though most of it should fall on the cartel OPEC--but due to unfettered responses to supply/demand's price signal, every price crisis has ended up with an alternative-fuel investment-cycle being subverted by a price-induced supply surge followed by a supply-induced price-collapse. Leaving plenty of damaged investors, with memories, around.

However, this time around, if you look at the shale, sands, ethanol, and even solar companies--even companies such as Zoltek which makes carbon fibers for windmills--a tremendous surge in their stock prices--dubs and trips--over the last year, bodes well for our supply a few years hence. Though these alternatives have a per-BTU cost that makes them undoable with oil out there, cheaper.

(( side note--the Shelf--the problem is the states (Florida unfairly gets all the credit due to the Bush thing). Currently, they get zippo from drilling offshore their waters. The states are therefore "for" the Moratorium--on the Nimby grounds, perforce the active and hostile Green Movement. There is a proposal in Congress to pay the states a royalty, and this should open the Shelf. In time. Write your congressperson! ))

Democracy--in the populist form--does have some weaknesses, and this energy/jihad confluence is going to give it a run for the money.

5/12/2006 08:43:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

It is a precedent not to emulate, trish.
That is the problem, believe the President, the longer it takes, the lesser the chance of Victory.

5/12/2006 08:50:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...

buddy larsen,

Your 8:19 AM - "regrettable"

In the case of Mr. Chavez it would be regrettable, indeed. Mechanical malfunctions, computer glitches, bad weather, and the always popular "pilot error" have put many a plane into the side of an Andean peak or into the drink.

As evidenced by today's Nigerian pipeline "malfunction", regrettable events are daily occurrences. Perhaps, soon, we will catch a break, as probability would dictate, and gain some "unanticipated" benefit from one of life's regrettable accidents.

Do you recall a regrettable accident taking place in Serbia shortly after the technologically disadvantaged Serbs downed one of our stealth aircraft? Seems the Chinese embassy had an errant American weapon come through a window and regrettably detonate. Tough luck that.

You know, with enough fortuitous but regrettable events, during which enough KEY bad boys regrettably take the express route from Bern to Hades, the much discussed nuclear option might be foreclosed.

In order to assist the fascist NSA agents plugged into this site, “That would be wrong.”

5/12/2006 08:58:00 AM  
Blogger trish said...

"It is a precedent not to emulate, trish."

But one to be rejected.

5/12/2006 09:00:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

There were lots of Japanese, all over Asia, buddy.
Germans were in Africa.
The Germans had the "biggest boats", like you have said, in the first years of WWII it looked "bad" for US.

We did not let old age weaken the Waffen SS.
General Yamamoto did not hit the ocean of his own accord.
We killed over a million civilians to end that war, the idea that this one can be settled on the cheap, will only cost US more.

History will put that bill on Mr Bush's desk, no doubt about that.

5/12/2006 09:05:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Jamie--here's a key rule-of-thumb with which to assess the reality: 2005 saw a doubling of oil-exploration expenditures, and it just barely maintained 2004's proven reserves. World consumption rose 2% 2005 Y2Y. The world is producing about 85 mm bpd, and consuming virtually all (so a 2% increase in consumption was able to vault prices 20%). The believers in "peak oil" hold that we will never--despite all efforts--get much more than 85 mm bpd. So, with PRC alone forecasting a doubling of needs in a decade--along with their stated decade-out goal of reducing total commercial exports from today's 65% of production (meaning, they need us) to 35% (meaning, they don't), we have a very challenging environment before us.

ANWAR is potentially MUCH bigger than the Greens say it is ("six months supply"), and yet we cannot drill there, due to the Green facility with such nonsense phrases as "it's like burning your Steinway to heat your living room". feh.

All this, is why I squabble with folks who flame the Bushies over the world situation--at least the Bushies offer *some* chance at climbing outta the hole we're in. Maybe the Dems do too--but not behind such as Reid, Pelosi, Conyers, Leahy, Kerry, Kennedy, and GORE!

5/12/2006 09:07:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Rat, 9:05--if only this enemy had armies in the field, ships, tanks, aircraft--and their production centers--to target. That's a measure of the conundrum, ain't it, that the West needs the enemy to build big steel weapons?

5/12/2006 09:19:00 AM  
Blogger DanMyers said...

Time.. Not much left it seems...

5/12/2006 09:19:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Over the past few years there have been many comparisons drawn to both Mr Churchill and Mr Chamberlain and their present day facsimiles.

Mr Bush was often compared to Mr Churchill, his opponents JFKerry, Al Gore, et al, were consistently portrayed in the Chamberlain mode.

History may well see the situation differently.
Will 5 years of the "Religion of Peace" mantra come back to haunt Mr Bush?
Much like "Peace in our Time"

5/12/2006 09:19:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

buddy
the Mohammedans do have Armies and the like. We refuse to engage them, further.
The Mohammedan aggression, internally, in Sudan is just a case in point.
Warizistan...

There are targets, we choose not to engage them.

You are right, the conundrum only exists because we do not engage what targets they do have.

5/12/2006 09:25:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

well, most of the targets are nominally engaging AQ at the moment--

5/12/2006 09:31:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

It has been five years, why are any of the Golden Chain links alive?

5/12/2006 09:32:00 AM  
Blogger Ash said...

Danmeyers,

Here I am, thanks for the summons but you just skipped over dr. ziaus above. He made some good points and that link he gave is well worth a look at.

You guys and gals seem to think these jihadis run around with a big TERRORIST sign on their head, that it is easy to identify one, and we all know that all that we catch or the buggers therefore we should kill them right away, or in Starling Hunters world, extract some juicy info first. It seems, though, they arent' so easy to spot and do we really want to give the soldier on the ground carte blanche to just wipe 'em out as they see fit, that jihadi sign so easy to spot? How about this guy?


wretchard, or anyone else for that matter, what specifically do you find problematic in the geneva conventions for the treatment of prisoners?

5/12/2006 09:34:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Wrong Area of Operations, buddy.

The Insurgent Sunni of Iraq were never part of the War on Terror, they were and are engaged in OIF, which is not one and the same as the WoT.

That is the real conundrum Mr Bush has placed himself & US in.

5/12/2006 09:36:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Politicized CIA can't do shit, is why. it'll rat itself out for some political ink.

5/12/2006 09:36:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Now the Insurgent Sunni are hunting aQ, as is Mr al-Sadr's militia, so now they are both our allies?
Or are they both still our Enemies?

5/12/2006 09:41:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Well, rat, Baathe sure was/is part of the GWot. I don't think anybody knows how many terrorists OIF created--some for sure.

Shitty deal--but Saddam and every other enemy we--along with everybody since the dawn of time--have ever had, will always raise a larger and larger army the more their enemy fights back.

5/12/2006 09:43:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

I think the internecine conflict is normal--a sign even, of at least a localized breakdown. The Germans who tried to kill Hitler kept right on shooting at us before and after. Examples everytwhere--the norm, actually. I think Patton and Montgomery hated each other more than they hated the Nazies.

5/12/2006 09:48:00 AM  
Blogger Papa Bear said...

desert rat,
We are not likely to get directly involved in Sudan. Giving arms and training to the Southerners, sure, but no Republican President is going to be interested in the US being subjected to 24/7 video coverage of Black Africans getting shot by mostly-white US troops.

Particularly this close to mid-term elections.

You can tell, though, that lots of Lefties want to get us sucked into there, figuring to turn it into another Somalia

5/12/2006 09:49:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

I'm way over allotment--and starting to nitpick--sorry--I'll retire awhile--ignore me--

5/12/2006 09:50:00 AM  
Blogger Papa Bear said...

desert rat,

re: why are Golden Chain members still around? Because they are wealthy and powerful members of the ruling class of erstwhile "allies" like Saudi Arabia, UAE, Kuwait, etc.

Imagine if one of the Kennedy clan had been doing fundraising for the IRA (in such a way that it's clear that he's in it up to his neck, but he could not be convicted in court). What would be the repercussions of British agents whacking him on US soil? What would be the fallout to the US Administration if it was leaked that we allowed a Kennedy to get whacked by the Brits?

5/12/2006 09:55:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Only on the periphery, buddy,
Or there'd have been no need for another "Authorization"

Thousands of Sunni Insurgents would not have engaged US, if we had not been in their space.
OIF put US troops in Iraq, not the WoT.
To try to blend the two together, is part of the conundrum Mr Bush created.

Onesies & twosies, fer sure, Iraq provided support to Terrorists.

But the PKK is a terrorist organization operating out of US controlled geography, in Iraq.

Are the deaths they cause, in Turkey, to be blamed upon US?

5/12/2006 09:56:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

If it leaked, papa bear, it would validate that the US was really at War, that it's enemies were targeted and if they did not stand down, we'd flame 'em all.

But we do not act that way.
We are losing the Wars, as well.

Unless you believe Mr al-Sadr is a true friend to US.

5/12/2006 10:00:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Think on what the last five years might've brought us, sans OIF. Yes, we're in a muddle, but a muddle is better than an allied Iran/Iraq/Russia intimidating and/or conquering the Gulf States--and putting whatever price they wanted--say $200--on just enough crude to keep us from having to invade pretty much a third of the world--or starve.

Bookkeeping is a double-entry procedure.

5/12/2006 10:05:00 AM  
Blogger Fernand_Braudel said...

"To crush the enemies,
see them driven before you,
and here the cheers of the women and children that were rescued."

- Conan, the new UN peacekeeper

5/12/2006 10:07:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Think on how many allies an enemy-controlled allocation of oil could buy. Just the whiff of the threat is doing a pretty bang-up job of that, as is.

5/12/2006 10:09:00 AM  
Blogger Fernand_Braudel said...

Wretchard said:
If the UN, NGOs and Europeans get shot to pieces enough and face barbarism in enough places they themselves might cobble together a halfway realistic method of dealing with terrorist combatants.


They already have cobbled together their halfway realisting method...

They run away.

5/12/2006 10:10:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Yesterday is not the topic of discussion, buddy.
OIF is a reality, so is Mr al-Sadr's ascension to "Defender of Baghdad".

The two are intertwined, we are or at least were, the responsible party for that ascension.
It's out of our hands, now.

Time marches on.

What do we do for an encore?

5/12/2006 10:12:00 AM  
Blogger blert said...

Ahmadi-Nejad has declared war on us.

'Nuff said.

It's time to roll, darkly.

5/12/2006 10:13:00 AM  
Blogger Fernand_Braudel said...

Dan said:
Declare them "pirates" and summarily execute them. If they want protection in the state of nature, let them raise a victorious army according to the ancient laws. They demonstrate that they do not want quarter, give none, and should be given none.


Treatment as 'pirates' has only existed under Admiralty-Maritime laws. there is only two ways to bring Admiralty-maritime law on-shore (1) Declaration of Martial Law (2) The terrorists would have to sign a contract.

5/12/2006 10:15:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

yesterday is only important to the extent that it colors tomorrow. Apprehension of the quality of our leadership must rest on yesterday, and will color tomorrow.

5/12/2006 10:16:00 AM  
Blogger Fernand_Braudel said...

porker said:
and if needed, BOMB the Black ROCK..

If you DESTROY one of the 5 pillars of Islam, the islamic peoples will KNOW g-d is NOT on their side

time to send a message....


Destroy all five pillars so they can't pretend that it didn't happen.

5/12/2006 10:18:00 AM  
Blogger doolz said...

allen said...

The Sri Lankans have the same problem as Israel: there is no peace with Islam.

Expect the usual suspects to appear on screen urging Sri Lanka not to behave precipitously or disproportionately, lest the "cycle of violence" spin out of control.

7:42 PM


The Tamil tigers are not Muslim.

5/12/2006 10:18:00 AM  
Blogger Mannning said...

For once I read agreement here on the proper way to fight Islam--no quarter. but the meme that not all Islamists are terrorists persists. Virtually any Muslim can be turned into a terrorist or suicide bomber using the pressure tactics of their leadership. Thus all Muslims are at least potentially jihadists, all billion or so of them.

If we were to go in and begin to wipe out as many Muslims as we could find, whether certified terrorists or not, I shudder to think of the reaction of the rest of the Islamic world, not to underestimate worldwide condemnation and reprisal.

The only solution seems to be to paint non-jihadists pink and shoot the others.

Or, as some have advocated, cripple their economy, take over their oil, and confiscate their holdings wherever possible, isolate their countries, and prevent their travel. Of course, shoot the avowed terrorists too.

5/12/2006 10:19:00 AM  
Blogger Ash said...

Buddy, while I would agree with DR that yesterday isn't really the topic of conversation, but even then I think you got your fantasy future/past wrong. Iraq would have continued to counter balance Iran and continued its campaign against Islamism, the inspectors would continue to tell US what we now know, no WMD, Russia, well, it would still be Russia and oil would be at 35 bucks a barrel. Ya, accounting is double entry...

5/12/2006 10:20:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Mr Bush's cratering numbers is not because of the decision to invade Iraq.

It is not caused by the fall of Saddam in a matter of weeks.

It is caused, in part, by the failure to "close the deal" in Iraq. By the fact our enemies have been empowered, that the "Victory" against Saddam has been squandered.

Mr Rumsfeld, I do not think he's liar, either.
"If we leave now, it'll be same as Saddam", to paraphrase.

He was commenting on the Iraqi

Spin that to Victory, I can't.

5/12/2006 10:23:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...

buddy larsen,

Your 9:07 AM - "Reid, Pelosi, Conyers, Leahy, Kerry, Kennedy, and GORE"

Shame on you! You did that on purpose. The Seven Dwarfs, indeed.

5/12/2006 10:25:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Ha--accident, but maybe subconscious. I left Hillary out, because, if the politics are right for her, she'll be the Valkyrie from Hell, to our enemies.

Ash--if I'm spinning fantasy, what are *you* spinning?

Rat, you're probably right--but isn't all that "yesterday", and don't we need a smidgen of confidence in our leaders if we're gonna do squat from now on?

5/12/2006 10:33:00 AM  
Blogger Fernand_Braudel said...

faeless said:
It's sad to contemplate but probably the most effective way is to target their families and friends

For every suicide bomber, kill their entire village.


A version of the chinese "9th degree" (It certainly produced peer-pressure to conform there...)

5/12/2006 10:34:00 AM  
Blogger DanMyers said...

Ash,

I don't find Dr. Zaius' comments out of the fold in this thread. He rightly points out that we are signatories to the Geneva Convention (Some of the Articles.. As you know). Wretchard forwarded the question - What are the rules of war?

To shed the Geneva Convention, when our enemy sneers at these rules? Even uses our largess as tactic... Presently, I don't think so, at least not without a mandate from "upon high" (the UN). Our shackled ankles to that global slave-driver will be the end of us. Time for some clarity there..

What seems to be the main direction of this thread is precisely what DR states - "kill 'em, kill 'em all". I find that somewhat hopeful, but not heartening. The low voice of the supporters of this war will be our defeat, as it was in Vietnam. My generation (Boomer) will go down as feckless political hacks if we don't get a "future for our kids" mind-set.


If I remember correctly, you are a proponent of this war? If not, apologies. I see no dissent from your link(s)... Damn.. :-)

5/12/2006 10:36:00 AM  
Blogger Ash said...

buddy wrote:

"Ash--if I'm spinning fantasy, what are *you* spinning?"

exactly, which was my point, it really is moot and any number of possibilities coulda' been.

5/12/2006 10:38:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Ash, suppose oil could--by say some edict from the UN--be held at 35--would that increase supply any?

Not that I'm agreeing with any particle of your post--but just to point out that you've ignored most of the reality, in favor of a bumper-sticker.

5/12/2006 10:39:00 AM  
Blogger Ash said...

hehehe, danmyers "proponent of this war" hmmmm that ever murky ill defined Orwellian battle against....

5/12/2006 10:42:00 AM  
Blogger Ash said...

buddy, hunh?? UN pegging the price of oil??? That sure came from left field. Now I know the war dan was referring to - the bumper sticker war.

(do the stickers count if they are left in the garage due to constrained personal budgets?)

5/12/2006 10:46:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Sorry, Ash, I was being fantasist--that was my point--to point out to a statist-mindset that regardless of any price-control, we have a supply problem. Price at least retards consumption (conserves supply)--and yes I know who that burden falls upon. I regret the way things are, all the hell over the place.

5/12/2006 10:50:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...

buddy larsen,

Your 10:33 AM - Hillary

Well, there you go again - Snow Sprite and the Seven Dwarfs. This site sooooo partisan.

5/12/2006 10:56:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Leaving the thing in the garage more, is precisely what we will be doing, bet on it. Blame it on whoever, it won't matter.

However, we will adapt to new patterns, and like as not will be just fine--if we don't fold up like 300 million lawnchairs.

As soon as we have to carpool, we might find out we like the neighbors!
\:-D

5/12/2006 10:58:00 AM  
Blogger DanMyers said...

Ash,

"(do the stickers count if they are left in the garage due to constrained personal budgets?)" - :-)

Yep, even more so.. Why wouldn't precisely that forward the "kill them, kill them all" debate? Is it due to self-flagellating, if America did it - it must be bad, belief in "the universal good of all people" oposition?

Not that I have an opinion.... :-)

5/12/2006 10:58:00 AM  
Blogger Sardonic said...

If the warring party does not abide by the rules of the Geneva Convention then that fact alone should instantly break the "contract" and release the other combatant from any requirement to obey those rules whatsoever. If the warring party happens to be a diminutive little runty arab country or group within that country then so be it. They should be summarily destroyed without any compunction whatsoever, with overwhelming force and maximum destruction. The purpose of this is not vengence or anger - it is a very simple concept called Deterence, which only has effectiveness when it is proven that the other party is willing to use it. Otherwise, as in the current situation, there is zero Deterence, and leave the enemy in a good position to behave like ... like ... like what? We have no words to describe the depth of evil that the Islamofascist Terrorist Imbeciles have stooped to. Monster? Not good enough. Fiend? Not yet. I will have to make up a word: SatansWorst.

5/12/2006 10:59:00 AM  
Blogger Ash said...

Hey, the higher price of oil modifies behavior in all sorts of ways. I'm no fan of price controls (to put it mildly).

5/12/2006 11:02:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

oh--sorry i misunderstooderated your "$35" comment--

Allen--that's Snow White"--i know because i'm halfway thru the book, and man is it challenging!

5/12/2006 11:05:00 AM  
Blogger geoffgo said...

papa bear,

Wow, you've nailed it. Islamic fanaticism has proved to be incurable. Henceforth, the US will perform IMMEDIATE frontal lobotomies on all captured jihadis, and they will be released within 2 weeks. Probably less than 100 of these outpatient treatments should be necessary. .

5/12/2006 11:09:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...

I am going to guess that most contributors to this site support accuracy in munitions delivery, if for no other reasons than practicality and economy. Well, why not select our human targets with the same care. We don't need to kill EVERYBODY if we thoughtfully kill the right SOMEBODIES. We have not been doing that systematically and routinely.

Ash, we begin by executing the unlawful combatants caught in the act. It’s just a hunch but if we get busy on these "warriors" they will be begging to give information as they are stood-up against the wall. Just might be a way to kill two birds with one stone.

5/12/2006 11:13:00 AM  
Blogger Brett L said...

Students of history may want to recall that some US Territories (It was illegal in Texas, and I believe States) practiced "outlawing", an old English tradition of stripping a person of protection of the law. So you'd get "Wanted Dead or Alive" bounties. It pretty much violates the 5th & 6th Amendments for the US to practice it domestically, but I think the Outlaw concept should be brought back.

Imagine it this way: "Be it known that any person on this list, or verifiable cohorts, shall no longer enjoy the protection of law, statute, or code by the United States. Futhermore, the United States will vigorously protect and defend any citizen accused of committing an illegal act against any person on this list against prosecution by any body that should claim jurisdiction to do so. Finally a reward for each person on this list is payable on deliverance of the physical corpus of said person, living or dead."

I believe that pretty much covers all the legal bases. Will bad men do bad things to men on this list? Probably. Do I care? Nope.

5/12/2006 11:13:00 AM  
Blogger Mike H. said...

exhelodrvr, the reason that we're aware of suicide bombers is because of the problem in Israel and Iraq, from the folks that we're fighting. We won't drive them to it because they already use that as a weapon. The second point is that they are already being released by sympathetic courts in Iraq and Afghanistan and showing up on the battlefield, along with the boys who were released from Guantanamo.

How much time and effort are we willing to expend on people who are out to kill us regardless of what we do. If one wants to fight a chivalrous war one has to engage a chivalrous opponent. At least that's what they told me when I first joined the Marine Corps (later Carter brought us 'The Laws Of Land Warfare' which means that we lose under any scenario).

5/12/2006 11:13:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Two words exemplify the problems with how the US deals with our Enemy. These two words are the true indicator of US Policies and Actions.
More than the empty State & Justice Depts billets in Baghdad, these two words tell all of US and the Mohammedan World that we are not yet at War.

Two words that have 'em smiling in Warizistan, while securing Jihadi strong points

Zacarias Moussaoui

5/12/2006 11:19:00 AM  
Blogger DanMyers said...

OK DR, I'll bite...

If Zacarias Moussaoui=Iraq, does General Giap=Vietnam?

Slow mind here....

5/12/2006 11:27:00 AM  
Blogger Dr. Zaius said...

Put on your best Friday tinfoil party hat:

Deutschland | 09.11.2004 Schicksalstag der Deutschen

Schicksalstag

Translating...

From Bosnia To Basra

Klinton was in Bosnia. Bush is in Basra.

Himmler Was Their Defender

5/12/2006 11:29:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

5/12/2006 11:39:00 AM  
Blogger DanMyers said...

DR,

My purpose in my last post was to posit the question of succesful guerilla warriors. You state Moussaoui is what to the Jihadi's? Succesful?

5/12/2006 11:39:00 AM  
Blogger bobalharb said...

Buddy--10:58--When the time comes that I must car pool with my neighbor(can't stand the old carping witch) I am blowing my brains out. That is why I am so insistant that we need to build nuke generating plants, AND NOW.

5/12/2006 11:40:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

I guess the arrow was WAY wide of the mark.

The analogy I was "trying" for is this:
Zacarias Moussaoui admitted being an aQ soldier, admitted to plotting and training for aircraft attacks.
He was not treated as a POW.
He was not treated within or without the Convention Guidelines.
He was a common criminal defendent.

He could have been held forever at Gitmo.
He could have been tried by a Military Tribunal and held or executed.

But no, he was elevated to being a common criminal, tried in Federal Court, at a reported cost of $65 Million USD.
Mitigating circumstance keeps him alive, at great further expense.
His father was a mean man, you know.

That is how we are fighting this "War"
Really

5/12/2006 11:43:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Herr Doktor, verwendest du einen anderen Namen, wie "Dementia"?

5/12/2006 11:43:00 AM  
Blogger exhelodrvr said...

Mike H,
I was referring more to people committing suicide, and taking our people with them, rather than surrendering. Again, I don't have a problem with the ethics, but it needs to be seriously looked at from a practical standpoint, too.

5/12/2006 11:46:00 AM  
Blogger DanMyers said...

DR,

Gotcha, agree.

Maybe we should start a right-of -passage tradition... At age x you must kill a cow then eat it... Men and women... See what you are insulated against, what must be done to survive.

5/12/2006 11:51:00 AM  
Blogger DanMyers said...

Oh, I'm sorry - for you vegetarians -

Pull a carrot shrieking from the ground, pull its greens off and eat it raw....

5/12/2006 11:59:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...

dr. zaius,

Your 11:29 AM

Thank you for the links.

5/12/2006 12:09:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Ah, sweet words, danmyers--take your sons and daughters hunting and fishing. if you don't hunt or fish, learn it together. Have 'em pour a walkway somewhere, or build a playhouse. Change tires and oil for sure before driving. If they won't get off the computer, lock it for a week, for the shock, then compromise.

5/12/2006 12:11:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

"... WASHINGTON (AP) — Law enforcement officials executed search warrants Friday on the house and office of CIA's outgoing executive director as part of an investigation into corruption involving agency contracts, the FBI said.
The CIA's third ranking official, Kyle "Dusty" Foggo, has been under investigation by the FBI, IRS, Defense Criminal Investigative Service, the CIA's inspector general and the U.S. attorney's office in San Diego, said FBI spokeswoman April Langwell in San Diego. ..."


The "Duke" Cunningham story.
Like herpes, it just doesn't "go away"

5/12/2006 12:11:00 PM  
Blogger Solomon2 said...

The pre-Cold War Geneva conventions are rooted in the sort of thinking that war meant switching one European ruler for another. The Cold War additions which the U.S. has not signed on to favor "liberation movement" and non-sovereign un-uniformed combatants -- that is, they are designed to protect terrorists.

The Geneva Conventions are also flawed because (1) they are unequal if both sides do not follow them, and (2) they make a war crime out of punishing property, but not killing people. Had the Union followed the Geneva Conventions in the Civil War, Sherman would never have marched through Georgia and a long and bloody guerilla war would have been lengthened the conflict to decades - and driven the body count even higher.

5/12/2006 12:18:00 PM  
Blogger DanMyers said...

Buddy,

Went to a band "concert" of my son's last night.. A friend (retired IT VP) of ours wants to have a monthly computer smashing event with his new Bobcat... He truly believes that electronics, computers, etc. are the downfall of us all. My son(s) donations are here any time he wants it... I'll supply the beer and TV coverage.

He's from Texas, all we talk about is how good the Dove hunting was there...

5/12/2006 12:26:00 PM  
Blogger Dr. Zaius said...

Tinfoil Happy Hour:

Klinton and NATO side with Bosnia. Bosnia is an Iranian puppet state.

Bush bashes Saddam. Iraq is an Iranian puppet state.

Rhetoric? Or facts on the ground?

5/12/2006 12:31:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

I think your friend has a point--the child-obesity crisis came on the heels of videogames--TV was bad--insofar as raising well-rounded kids--but this new world is positively devilish--bad enough for us old farts who make a living (or in the case of the last two days, an anti-living) on it--

5/12/2006 12:34:00 PM  
Blogger DanMyers said...

Buddy,

Along those lines..... (HT - Instapundit)

5/12/2006 12:55:00 PM  
Blogger CJB said...

My goodness, I am stunned! It has only taken you 4 years and 8 months since 9-11 to realize that the Islamofascist enemy of Western civilization has no respect for any of our laws, traditions, let alone the Geneva Conventions.

5/12/2006 01:02:00 PM  
Blogger allen said...

desert rat,

Why can't we keep up the momentum on the GWOT and a host of other pressing issues? Try this: "It's a little odd to hear a judge ordering someone not to comply with
immigration law..." The judge is a Clinton appointee to the Federal bench.

Given the resurrection at CI, the duplicity of State, and the capricious judicial activism of some Federal judges, it's a wonder that anything gets done.

As to the Federal judge, a President that paid more than lip-service to rule of law would order an expedited appeal to SCOTUS. That will not happen.

Sun Tzu would advise the ruler of a dysfunctional kingdom to act how? Something tells me a foreign war would not be on the table. But, what did Sun Tzu know anyhow?

http://www.michellemalkin.com/

5/12/2006 01:14:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

for an explanation, cjb, read danmyers' link--

...the idea of self-preservation was as jealously guarded from the young as the facts of sex had been in earlier ages....

5/12/2006 01:17:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Allen, a fantasy--instead of telling Americans How Great We Are, a politician tells the truth--that we're okay, but awfully goddamn soft, selfish, ignorant, and not a little arrogant about it all--and are gonna get our asses handed to us REAL proper-like very soon, if we don't square up.

5/12/2006 01:22:00 PM  
Blogger Ash said...

A little OT post for the Rat:

I know you've lamented the prisoners passing through a revolving door in Iraq and this post by Salam Pax made me think of you:

"Today there was an interview with the minister of Justice in the newspaper.
There have been rumours that inmates who have been sentenced to death for crimes related to terrorism have been walking out of their cells by the truckload. And there is one wild rumour circulating about a group of another terrorists in a “high security” Iraqi jail in a remote area digging a tunnel out of their jail.

What was his response? He admitted that death-row inmates have been bribing the prison wardens and they were letting them go. He didn’t think it was his or his ministry’s fault. Apparently it is the fault of the National Assembly. The law laid down by the NA for death sentences make it necessary to do a lot of paper work which has been taking the ministry up to two months to finish and this time is apparently more than enough for indicted terrorists to become chummy with their wardens and find out how much it would take to let hem walk and then get in contact with their buddy terrorists and arrange for payments."

5/12/2006 01:25:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Instantly hang the bribe-takers, or or or.....

5/12/2006 01:37:00 PM  
Blogger Ash said...

or, or....have them stick the money in the US stock market? ;)

5/12/2006 01:40:00 PM  
Blogger DanMyers said...

Or, or, or.....sh*t

But, then again, it took bribes to get equipment into Egypt. Unless, we wanted to wait 3-4 months for it to "clear" customs... Hard to change the Baksheesh tradition in the ME...

5/12/2006 01:48:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Can't do that, buddy.
It is contrary to the Arab culture norms.

Which we must respect, more than the lives of our troops.

Catch and Release
It was old when first reported
Worse now, ignorance is no longer an excuse

Iraq for the Iraqis,
time marches on,
they want US completely out in '08.
Mr Bush said in a news conference that it wasn't up to him, but the Iraqis and the next President. Gives US an extra year, on the outside, even if he's right.

5/12/2006 01:48:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Hah--good one, Ash. But do read danmyers instap link; some forms of holiness lead to bad results--
\;-)

5/12/2006 02:00:00 PM  
Blogger DanMyers said...

DR,

Japan regained full sovereignty in 1952. That's 11 years or so, start to finish... You think we'll loosen the rope quicker than that in Iraq? I think we'll be big brother for a while there.. Bases in Iraq for, oh say, 50 years. But I'm an optimist.

Baksheesh wasn't respected, it was tradition. You participated or not, your choice. To change it, your talking generational time-frames.

And I'm over my quota...

5/12/2006 02:14:00 PM  
Blogger allen said...

insurrection

I am not in favor of CI's resurrection.

5/12/2006 02:33:00 PM  
Blogger Alexis said...

The dialectic is unfolding slowly.

The problem with the Geneva Conventions as they presently exist is not only that they are antiquated, but that the terrorists' "asymmetrical" abuse of those conventions may effectively discredit the entire notion of human rights altogether.

The entire idea of human rights is anathema to al-Qaeda (and Saudi Arabia and Iran and...). So, they fight in a manner designed use our human rights standards against us. And so far, they have been succeeding.

I'll suggest that revising the Geneva Conventions to address the new reality is not merely a mundane necessity, but an ideological one as well. The cause of human rights can only be redeemed if that cause is not allowed to be abused by al-Qaeda.

Case in point: I think every government should be required to videotape every moment of the custody of every unlawful combatant. This would allow investigators to disprove (or verify) whether the torture claimed by terrorists did in fact occur. As it is, governments are caught in a Catch-22; they cannot release photos of captured combatants (as that would be an offense against Geneva Conventions), so they cannot defend themselves against false accusations by terrorists and their relatives.

Moreover, 24-7 videos of the unlawful combatants should be put onto the World Wide Web. Again, this would allow every activist from Amnesty International to see, minute by minute, how the detainees are treated and more importantly, how the detainees may themselves be responsible for human rights abuses.

5/12/2006 02:33:00 PM  
Blogger Jhn1 said...

Well the repeal of "Protocol 1" ( the Soviet terrorist protection amendment that the US never signed) from the Geneva Conventions would be a start.
Acknowleging facts that were known in the British Empire , to whit, that some religions are sociopathic, some incorporate sociopathic elements, and that the Empire would tolerate neither.
See: India's Thuggee cult.
See: fundamental Islam

5/12/2006 02:43:00 PM  
Blogger Dr. Zaius said...

Allen Resurrection:

So the director of the CIA came and told me that he had contacted a woman in California that claimed to have supernatural capabilities. And she went in a trance, and she wrote down latitudes and longitudes, and we sent our satellite over that latitude and longitude, and there was the plane.

The Gospel According to Jimmy


His latest is to use ultrasonic waves in the dazzler not to just blind enemies, but also to convey messages into their heads, similar to Gibbs's Medusa project. Hearing voices from God is a 'big thing' in Arab culture, according to Bitar. "We flash-blind them. And, while their eyes are shut, you could send a recorded message or deep guttural voice that echoes in the inside of their head. They're looking around, 'Hey, did you hear that?' "

Medusa and the Voice of God

6/6/06

5/12/2006 03:00:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

The Japanese were a defeated people
The Iraqi a liberated one.

Major difference in mentality and aspirations.
Timelines will invariably shorten.
The Iraqi that are now empowered have been quite clear on the subject of US garrisons.
They are to gone by the end of '08 in their entirety.
That is the Iraq public position now, with 133,000 in the Country. As we draw down, they will want the pace accelerated, not slowed.

The little economic "trickle down" caused by US occupation, that buddy reported yesterday, not nearly enough to swallow their pride over our staying.

We do not have the inititive on our "Stay behind" force. The debate been badly muddled on the entire subject.
The Garrisoning decision will not be ours to make.

5/12/2006 03:26:00 PM  
Blogger DanMyers said...

Point taken on your 1st paragraph.

Disagree with last sentence, but you very well could be right. I would imagine that we are working VERY hard to counter that public statement. If for nothing else, to have troops prepared to move for bargaining chips with the Russia/China bloc. Russians really don't like out proximity to their southern border. As far as I'm concerned, Iran would be a bit closer.... But, we've had this discussion before.. :-)

5/12/2006 03:34:00 PM  
Blogger DanMyers said...

out = our....

5/12/2006 03:36:00 PM  
Blogger allen said...

desert rat,

You spoke earlier of the difficulties confronting the Bush administration in the GWOT. I thought you might like this,

"...if names are not correct ,language will not be in accordance with the truth of things and with time this will lead to the end of Justice, to anarchy and to war" - Confucius

5/12/2006 03:37:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Utopianism must change minds from a natural state, and every attempt to change minds from where nature has put them, must do it with meanings, with what the meaning of "is" is. And yes indeedy someone will pay, when ya mess with Mother Nature.

5/12/2006 03:48:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

I understand the reasons to stay. I have always supported a vibrant force, split between enhanced ISF embeds and an equipment security force.
50,000 or so troopers combined.

I do not believe we will see it.
The players should be taken, pretty much, at their word.

Mr Maliki will not want US meddling in Iraqi affairs of State.
Nor Mr al-Sadr or Imam Sistani.
That is a fact beyond dispute.

Mr Sistani, perhaps the most influental man in Iraq, has yet to meet with an American.
Letters from Mr Bush lay, untranslated and unread on the desk.

I do not believe that Ms Rice will make much headway with Islamists that regard women as chattel property, sorry for that nonPC dose of reality. Niether she and Ms Albright, they are not the "Best" messengers when dealing with men from the 14th century.

To use the "negotiating opportunity" to "enlghten" our Enemies is counterproductive, IMO

5/12/2006 03:48:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

I think we'll treat with the Iraq gov't, quite publicly, and trade economic/technical aid for a ten year basing deal. drlg rig rates are sky high, land rig builders like Varco have dubbed, and are deep-backordered. Iraq will need Ami companies badly for the next decade. Meanwhile we gotta do in the jihad. the 2008 statement was rather offhand, and an initial negotiating ploy--imho.

5/12/2006 03:57:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

My Japenese friends have always told me that I was a Buddhist at heart.
It seems from that quote, I could be a bit Confucian as well, but those Asian religions. There is no one watching, but yourself and the Karma wheel.

5/12/2006 03:59:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

5/12/2006 04:03:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Sistani may not be falling into our arms, but he is also not losing street cred by falling into our arms. he's smart--watch what he do, not what he don't say publicly to the 'other' (us). Remember--he's a religious leader--and we ain't the Ummah.

5/12/2006 04:03:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

I'd agree, buddy.
Mr Sistani is for stability and security.
The US can provide niether in Iraq.

For any number of reasons, to be sure, but the bottom line remains the same, regardless.

The "Defender of Baghdad" is in the slot, now. Perhaps with a higher body count he will succeed, where we have failed.
Perhaps not.

To depend on American Oil Companies fulfilling US Foreign policy, when the Chinese will cut a better deal is looking on the sunnyside to be sure.

Many more of the exiles, now controlling Iraq, have French Connections, rather than US.

Our folks were "frozen" out, by the process.

The French, Russian and other EU companies, they know how to play the "Game", for the US companies, the "Game" itself is illegal.

The field is not level, nor will it be so soon.

5/12/2006 04:15:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

If those State and Justice billets had been filled, if the US Government really gave a shit and was serious about the "War" perhaps things would be different, but they are not.

5/12/2006 04:19:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

hope you're wrong--hope we have some friends, someone who will feel a little gratitude for the blood spilled to rid them of the Butcherman.

5/12/2006 04:25:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Memories of 1991 will continue to fill the room, when the Shia leaders speack to Ms Rice.

5/12/2006 04:26:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

i hear that--

5/12/2006 04:29:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

We did have friends, buddy.
We pulled the rug out from under them. Mr Bremmer saw it coming, it was no secret.
Mr al-Sadr's ascension is a direct result of US decisions. Foreseen by Mr Bremmer and reported by him to the President.
We Stayed the Course though and the result is now known.

5/12/2006 04:31:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

well, one thing for sure--the odds @ invasion time were very long that the whole planet would soon be screaming that American Imperialists "colonized" Iraq and "took it over". our "hands off" approach has at least had the possibly long-term important effect that that line of propaganda is pretty much sunk to an AQ theme.

5/12/2006 04:37:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

That is true, buddy.

We have a created a Wilsonian solution.
That is no solution at all,
per Mr Rumsfeld's assessment of the Iraqi

The Guardian and the NYTimes, they sure appreciate it, our self restraint, that's fer sure.

5/12/2006 04:43:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Look at the pathetic turn-out for the anti-war street protests in the world's cities, last OIF anniversary. heavily-promoted by A.N.S.W.E.R, paltry show.

the bremmer fecklessness, the USA backgrounding its presence in the elections--these are strategic actions, not oversights, and they have had a positive effect of sorts.

No, not a decisive effect--it's like weather--what's good for swimming is bad for skiing.

5/12/2006 04:46:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Even the antiWar protesters have come to realize, there is no War to be against, really.

5/12/2006 04:48:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Like Kosovo

It's just an Occupation

5/12/2006 04:50:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

It's that ole double-entry again--one could say that the biggest danger of OIF was a VNam anti-war movement, a reprised Summer of '68 series, again. gotta enter that in as an admin credit, alongside the debit of the apparent muddle.

5/12/2006 04:53:00 PM  
Blogger allen said...

My 3:37 PM

A bit of senescent dyslexia in play to day. I should have referenced, "Black Death II?" - http://www.americanthinker.com/
articles.php?article_id=5489

5/12/2006 04:54:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

feh

5/12/2006 05:11:00 PM  
Blogger StargazerA5 said...

I see a lot of people calling for defiling Islamic terrorists with pig parts. Frankly, doing so isn't right.

After all, why waste a perfectly good pig?

StargazerA5

5/12/2006 05:33:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Postman is handing the farmer his mail, and asks what happened to the three-legged pig he sees in the yard. Farmer says the missing leg is from the barn fire he'd had last month.

Postman asks, "Oh, he lost the leg in the fire?"

Farmer answers, "No, that pig pulled me out of the fire, I owe him my life, so I hate to eat him all at once."

5/12/2006 05:43:00 PM  
Blogger bobalharb said...

I have spent the last few days putting up yard signs, phoning and even wrote letter to the editor for a candidate in our district that may make some difference on he immigration debate. Thankfully, here we still do politics in a civilized manner. And what a good thing spring is, what with the doves back big time, and the skunk that I leave food for making a big scene each night. Things could be worse--go vote.

5/12/2006 05:55:00 PM  
Blogger DanMyers said...

Allen,

What's worse than senescence? - no senescence....

Ah, the chance to use my father's old sayings....priceless.

5/12/2006 06:59:00 PM  
Blogger Dr. Zaius said...

Insects are more interesting than pigs. Especially Bramble Bees and Mason Wasps. Jean Henri Fabre was one of the original entomologists and a great influence on Chas. Darwin:

Of the various insects that like to make their home in our houses, certainly the most interesting, for her beautiful shape, her curious manners, and her wonderful nest, is a certain Wasp called the Pelopaeus. She is very little known, even to the people by whose fireside she lives. This is owing to her quiet, peaceful ways; she is so very retiring that her host is nearly always ignorant of her presence.

The Pelopaeus (A Mason-wasp forming the subject of essays which have not yet been published in English.--Translator's Note.) gives us a very poor idea of her intellect when she plasters up the spot in the wall where the nest which I have removed used to stand, when she persists in cramming her cell with Spiders for the benefit of an egg no longer there and when she dutifully closes a cell which my forceps has left empty, extracting alike germ and provisions. The Mason-bees (Cf. "The Mason-bees": chapter 7.--Translator's Note.), the caterpillar of the Great Peacock Moth (Cf. "Social Life in the Insect World" by J.H. Fabre, translated by Bernard Miall: chapter 14.-- Translator's Note.) and many others, when subjected to similar tests, are guilty of the same illogical behaviour: they continue, in the normal order, their series of industrious actions, though an accident has now rendered them all useless. Just like millstones unable to cease revolving though there be no corn left to grind, let them once be given the compelling power and they will continue to perform their task despite its futility. Are they then machines? Far be it from me to think anything so foolish.

I once saw a Bee-eating Wasp, while carrying a Bee to her storehouse, attacked and caught by a Mantis. The Wasp was in the act of eating the honey she had found in the Bee’s crop. The double saw of the Mantis closed suddenly on the feasting Wasp; but neither terror nor torture could persuade that greedy creature to leave off eating. Even while she was herself being actually devoured she continued to lick honey from her Bee!

Bramble Bees and Others by Jean Henri Fabre

http://www.globusz.com/ebooks/BrambleBees/

5/12/2006 07:00:00 PM  
Blogger trish said...

Bases in Iraq seem to matter a lot here.

Funny.

I think about 40 acres in West Virginia.

5/12/2006 07:40:00 PM  
Blogger trish said...

Sitting on the porch at sunset and being able to overlook...everything.

Every damn thing.

5/12/2006 07:53:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

I hope you don't see them damn bees and wasps and mantises sittin in a circle eating each other.

5/12/2006 08:31:00 PM  

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