Friday, May 05, 2006

Rummy "lied"

Andrew Sullivan says the man who heckled Rummy was

Not some crazed lefty. The man who demanded that Rumsfeld answer the questions we all want to have answered turns out to be the man who gave former president George H. W. Bush his daily intelligence briefing. And he was right in the exchange; and Rummy was factually wrong. Yep: Rumsfeld lied. Quelle surprise.

No not some crazed lefty. The man was Ray McGovern, who Sweetness and Light noticed was part of Daniel Ellsberg's Truth Telling Project. Here's the relevant blog entry from the Belmont archives:

Sweetness and Light has noticed that the press has quoted two former counterterrorism experts in defense of Mary McCarthy but omitted one interesting detail, which may or may not be relevant. Here's ABC News report quoting the first expert, Ray McGovern to the effect that McCarthy had a higher duty to "defend the constitution".

To supporters, McCarthy is a woman of conviction who exposed actions she believed were against the law.

"This a matter of principle," said Ray McGovern, a former fellow CIA analyst, "where she said my oath, my promise not to reveal secrets is superceded by my oath to defend the constitution of the U.S." ...

Then Sweetness and Light notices that both Ray McGovern and Larry Johnson are associated with Daniel Ellsberg's The Truth-Telling Project. For those who are unfamiliar with the name Daniel Ellsberg, here's the Wikipedia entry.

Daniel Ellsberg (born April 7, 1931) is a former American military analyst who precipitated a national uproar in 1971 when he released the Pentagon Papers, the US military's account of activities during the Vietnam War, to The New York Times. His release of the Pentagon Papers succeeded in substantially eroding public support for the war.

Ray McGovern's role is described on this Truth-Telling Project web page.

The Truth-Telling Coalition, comprised of high-level national security truth-tellers, as well as non-profit whistleblower organizations, provides a personal and legal support network for each other and for government insiders considering becoming truth-tellers. Current coalition members include Sibel Edmonds, Daniel Ellsberg, Frank Grevil, Katharine Gun, Ray McGovern, Coleen Rowley, the Project on Government Oversight, and the ACLU. (Bios and info on members will be available on the Truth-Telling Coalition Website, currently under construction.) To see press coverage of the Truth-Telling Coalition, see the Press Coverage page.

Commentary

Watching the video I fully expected Rummy to be massacred inside of McGovern's kill-zone since McGovern had the ability to choose the very specific ground on which to challenge Rumsfeld. The verbatim transcript of the exchange is below.

QUESTION: So I would like to ask you to be up front with the American people, why did you lie to get us into a war that was not necessary, that has caused these kinds of casualties? why?

RUMSFELD: Well, first of all, I haven’t lied. I did not lie then. Colin Powell didn’t lie. He spent weeks and weeks with the Central Intelligence Agency people and prepared a presentation that I know he believed was accurate, and he presented that to the United Nations. the president spent weeks and weeks with the central intelligence people and he went to the american people and made a presentation. i’m not in the intelligence business. they gave the world their honest opinion. it appears that there were not weapons of mass destruction there.

QUESTION: You said you knew where they were.

RUMSFELD: I did not. I said I knew where suspect sites were and –

QUESTION: You said you knew where they were Tikrit, Baghdad, northeast, south, west of there. Those are your words.

RUMSFELD: My words — my words were that — no, no, wait a minute, wait a minute. Let him stay one second. Just a second.

QUESTION: This is America.

RUMSFELD: You’re getting plenty of play, sir.

QUESTION: I’d just like an honest answer.

RUMSFELD: I’m giving it to you.

QUESTION: Well we’re talking about lies and your allegation there was bulletproof evidence of ties between al Qaeda and Iraq.

RUMSFELD: Zarqawi was in Baghdad during the prewar period. That is a fact.

QUESTION: Zarqawi? He was in the north of Iraq in a place where Saddam Hussein had no rule. That’s also…

RUMSFELD: He was also in Baghdad.

QUESTION: Yes, when he needed to go to the hospital.

Come on, these people aren’t idiots. They know the story.

(PROTESTER INTERRUPTS)

RUMSFELD: Let me give you an example.

It’s easy for you to make a charge, but why do you think that the men and women in uniform every day, when they came out of Kuwait and went into Iraq, put on chemical weapon protective suits? Because they liked the style?

(LAUGHTER)

They honestly believed that there were chemical weapons.

(APPLAUSE)

Saddam Hussein had used chemical weapons on his own people previously. He’d used them on his neighbor (AUDIO GAP) the Iranians, and they believed he had those weapons.

We believed he had those weapons.

QUESTION: That’s what we call a non sequitur. It doesn’t matter what the troops believe; it matters what you believe.

MODERATOR: I think, Mr. Secretary, the debate is over. We have other questions, courtesy to the audience.

The counterfactual which proves Rumsfeld "lied" is this cited exchange from a DOD briefing:

STEPHANOPOULOS: And is it curious to you that given how much control U.S. and coalition forces now have in the country, they haven’t found any weapons of mass destruction?

SEC. RUMSFELD: …We know where they are. They’re in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat.

But the citation is not complete. If you read the full exchange, which took place at a briefing on March 30,2003 it will be abundantly clear Rumsfeld made these statements when neither Tikrit and Baghdad were in Coalition hands. Baghdad fell on April 8, 2003, more than a week after this exchange between Rumsfeld and Stephanopoulos. Tikrit fell even later. The verbatim exchange is given below..

SEC. RUMSFELD: Yeah. Do it. His circumstance is not a happy one. We're within 49 miles of Baghdad. He's being closed on from the north, south, and there's so many people running around hyper-ventilating that things aren't going well. This plan is working.

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Finally, weapons of mass destruction. Key goal of the military campaign is finding those weapons of mass destruction. None have been found yet. There was a raid on the Answar Al-Islam Camp up in the north last night. A lot of people expected to find ricin there. None was found. How big of a problem is that? And is it curious to you that given how much control U.S. and coalition forces now have in the country, they haven't found any weapons of mass destruction?

SEC. RUMSFELD: Not at all. If you think -- let me take that, both pieces -- the area in the south and the west and the north that coalition forces control is substantial. It happens not to be the area where weapons of mass destruction were dispersed. We know where they are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat.

Second, the [audio glitch] facilities, there are dozens of them, it's a large geographic area. It is the -- Answar Al-Islam group has killed a lot of Kurds. They are tough. And our forces are currently in there with the Kurdish forces, cleaning the area out, tracking them down, killing them or capturing them and they will then begin the site exploitation. The idea, from your question, that you can attack that place and exploit it and find out what's there in fifteen minutes.

I would also add, we saw from the air that there were dozens of trucks that went into that facility after the existence of it became public in the press and they moved things out. They dispersed them and took them away. So there may be nothing left. I don't know that. But it's way too soon to know. The exploitation is just starting.

So now if we compare the statements of Ray McGovern and Donald Rumsfeld side by side, here is what we get:

Ray McGovern Donald Rumsfeld
QUESTION: You said you knew where they were. RUMSFELD: I did not. I said I knew where suspect sites were and –
QUESTION: You said you knew where they were Tikrit, Baghdad, northeast, south, west of there. Those are your words. RUMSFELD: My words — my words were that — no, no, wait a minute, wait a minute. Let him stay one second. Just a second.


Ray McGovern had plenty of time to examine the transcript above. It's abundantly clear from the transcript that Rumsfeld had only intelligence indications that the WMD were "in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat". It was clearly a statement of belief that the WMDs would be found there. He also categorically warned Stephanopoulous the WMDs might not be found at all. "I would also add, we saw from the air that there were dozens of trucks that went into that facility after the existence of it became public in the press and they moved things out. They dispersed them and took them away. So there may be nothing left. I don't know that. But it's way too soon to know. The exploitation is just starting."

None of this means the points which Ray McGovern raised were invalid. But it is not obviously the case that Rumsfeld knew for a fact the WMDs would not be found in Tikrit, Baghdad, etc ... and lied about it. Rumsfield may have lied, but the proof is not to be found in the exchange above. What would be more convincing is some kind of document which indicated intelligence believed they would not be found in Tikrit, Baghdad and other suspect places and that Rumsfeld maintained the contrary. But the exchange above actually supports Rumsfeld's assertion that he maintained they were "suspect sites" rather than sites in which he had definite knowledge of their location.  I think the assertion that McGovern "proved" that Rumsfeld lied is simply an assertion. And no, Ray McGovern was not some "crazed lefty". He was the best the Left had to prove that Rumsfeld lied fighting on his chosen ground. And he didn't prove anything.

255 Comments:

Blogger Pierre Legrand said...

That the administration has not been more aggressive in refuting the leftwing is one of the biggest failures of the war. Strange because its not like the reasons for our failure in Vietnam are such a mystery. We will fail again if we do not take seriously the need to convince the American public that fighting in Iraq was crucial to the war. Rumsfeld timid responses to that Moonbat in regards to the links between Al Queda and Saddam are part and parcel of why the war has become so unpopular.

When the public believed that Saddam had some part in 9/11 everyone understood why we went. When the Administration themselves started throwing cold water on that the support for the war went away.

Pre-War Intel Regarding Saddam's Threat

5/05/2006 06:41:00 PM  
Blogger 2164th said...

Sorry Pierre 6:41,
The only one qualified in articulating a response is inarticulate to a fault. This administration is a failure. It is incapable of defending and reasserting itself. it is really too bad and I am sincere in that.

5/05/2006 06:49:00 PM  
Blogger Ash said...

For Rumsfeld, or Bush for that matter, to have lied they must have knowledge that what they said was in fact false. This is a tough hurdle to cross. If it can be shown that they lied then the case would be very damning. Even if they didn't lie, the fact that that they cherry picked the intelligence (probably knowingly, but not necessarily) is damning enough. Ultimately, historically, what really matters is what occured, and that is very damning. The administration can prattle on til they depart that they thought there were WMD, that 'bad intelligence' led them on the goose chase but the result is what matters and that result sucks.

5/05/2006 06:59:00 PM  
Blogger Ash said...

p.s. let me use a chess analogy. You can say you thought that your opponent was using the classic kings cross, your 'intelligence' indicated that that was indeed the truth, but if your opponent feinted and beat you, you can winge on all you like about what you thought he was going to do, but you still are the loser. In Chess second place is last place.

5/05/2006 07:02:00 PM  
Blogger wretchard said...

Proving a lie is extremely hard to do. What can be shown was that pre-war intel was bad. On the balance I think history will sustain that charge. Somehow there is the idea that GWB was keeping two sets of intel books, like a crooked accountant: one with the "good" intel and another with the fake intel, and one day we will discover the legitimate books and establish the conspiracy. But from what has come out so far every set of books has been a mess.

Intel didn't see 9/11 coming. It didn't forsee Turkey would reject the 4ID; it couldn't find the WMDs in Iraq; it has not, to this day, found Zarqawi. In a way it would be more comforting if Rumsfeld did lie. It would mean we actually knew the truth and chose to lie about it. What seems more likely is that intelligence knows comparatively little that was definite. And that is a far more dangerous indicator operationally, than a commander's willingness to lie. It goes to a deficiency in capability, not intent.

5/05/2006 07:14:00 PM  
Blogger 2164th said...

Wretchard,

I agree with your assessment. The two things that convince me is the fifty odd page British dossier and the elaborate and extremely uncomfortable chemical protection gear worn by the GI's. I also believe there was a high level of administrative pre-disposition to believe it was true, probably not unlike a cop who knows the perp is guilty and plants a little evidence to give the case a boost. Bush bet the farm on Iraq. Without WMD he loses politically because that was his entire case. His administration cannot recover without the outside help of a unifying tragedy or attack.

5/05/2006 07:29:00 PM  
Blogger Ash said...

an analogy I used way way back was:

say you were happily living in your home, renting out the basement to a nice couple, and one day the cops came in with a warrant based on evidence supplied by your neighbor. They ripped the place a part and found nothing. They kept at it, dismantling the place looking for the alleged coke. Oops they got it wrong, your tenants left (who would pay rent under those circumstances) and there is a lot of damage to repair do to the meticulous search. Maybe a lawyer in the house can anwer, would the cops (or neighbor) be liable for damages or does it just suck to be you?

5/05/2006 07:37:00 PM  
Blogger 2164th said...

Loyalty also hurt Bush. His loyalty to Tony Blair led him to support one too many trips to the UN. That entire case was based on WMD.

5/05/2006 07:38:00 PM  
Blogger DanMyers said...

Ash,

Once again you post counter to the evidence. No, in spite of the evidence...


Wretchard, thanks for the reminder and counter-counterfactual information. :-)

5/05/2006 07:45:00 PM  
Blogger Aristides said...

CNN, the aspiring news channel, has committed yet another journalistic transgression against truth and fairness in reporting. Today's big news item, played several times, was the spat between Rumsfeld and the ex-CIA/current-dissident McGovern during Rumsfeld's speech in Atlanta. CNN put together a short video segment on it, headlined "CNN Fact-check" (which you can watch if you follow the link), to help the viewer understand who was telling the truth.

One of McGovern's charges was that Rumsfeld, before the war, proclaimed that the connections between Saddam and Al'Qaeda were "bulletproof," And this began CNN's fact-checking. It starts with video and a voice-over, which notes that the New York Times in 2002 quoted Rumsfeld as using the word 'bulletproof,' and that a few days later Rumsfeld reiterated it. That is premise one: Rumsfeld really said it. The video segment then moves forward to provide the viewer with premise two, showing a question and answer session in 2004 in which a woman asks Rumsfeld why he said "evidence of Saddam's involvement in 9/11 was 'bulletproof.'" On the video, one sees Rumsfeld move quickly forward to say, "I never said that." The message (the conclusion) is clear: Rumsfeld said the evidence was "bulletproof," and two years later Rumsfeld refused to own up to his own words. CNN's report does not delve any further into the issue, and the viewer is left with the impression that McGovern was right: Rumsfeld is a dissembler and/or a liar.

But is this true? Well, actually, no, it isn't. As is often the case, the devil is in the details. This is what the New York Times actually reported on October 25, 2002 (which CNN couldn't be bothered to expound upon):

Mr. Rumsfeld said today that information he cited last month on Iraq's links to Al Qaeda was "bulletproof" because it was compiled and vetted by the C.I.A.

"When I said something was bulletproof, I was referring to the five or six sentences that I had read here off of a piece of paper which I'd received from the agency," he said.

Mr. Rumsfeld had cited information indicating that contacts between Al Qaeda and Iraq stretched back a decade and had increased since 1998, that Qaeda members had been in Baghdad, and that Al Qaeda had sought help in acquiring weapons of mass destruction from Iraq.


The video clip CNN dug up showed a woman accusing Rumsfeld of saying "evidence of Saddam's involvement in 9/11 was 'bulletproof,'" which, of course, Rumsfeld was right in denying. He never said evidence of Saddam's involvement in 9/11 was bulletproof. Never. Not once. He said evidence of contacts between Saddam and Al'Qaeda was bulletproof -- and it is. We have loads of documentation on these contacts and connections (for instance, here, here, here, and here). Rumsfeld was right then, and he is right now.

The opponents of the Administration have long sought to conflate the two issues; for instance, the Press recast the 9/11 Commission's findings of "no proof of operational coordination" into no link whatsoever. That is a false meme, because the Commission did find quite a few contacts and connections between Saddam's Iraq and Al'Qaeda. This is not an arguable point; this is simply what they found.

Yet here, once again, CNN does the bait and switch, "proving" that Rumsfeld said bulletproof (without elaborating the circumstance), then showing a clip of him denying it. But what CNN doesn't tell you is that Rumsfeld was not denying the word, but the context -- and here, context is everything.

Rumsfeld says one type of evidence is bulletproof (connections and contacts), and gets accused of saying it about another (involvement in 9/11). He correctly denies the latter, and he has never backed away from the former. So what's the controversy?

It is not Rumsfeld's fault that this nuance is lost on his critics. CNN is either too dumb, or too dishonest, to report it.

5/05/2006 07:45:00 PM  
Blogger bobalharb said...

The cops wouldn't give up the neighbor, and it sucks to be you. Assuming it's a legit warrant. Not a lawyer but my dad was; anyway, that's the way I understand it; hope I remember correctly. If it's really really really bad you might file a complaint and try to sue, but then you've probably lost your money too.

5/05/2006 07:48:00 PM  
Blogger wretchard said...

2164th,

It may simply be an outsider's impression, but it feels like the intel apparatus is incredibly ponderous. If I were to guess, the CIA was outsped by an incredibly nimble Russian intelligence operation, which moved most of the stuff out of Iraq and had a jump on US intel in knowing how the Turkey decision vis the 4ID would work out. They may have turned a military defeat into a postwar political victory. May.

Will we ever know? McCaffrey's report asserts that State can't even deploy to Iraq. Can't even deploy. So while I don't doubt that the DOD has its share of problems, whatever their defects the Armed Forces performance has made the intel and state guys look like clowns. At least they took what they had to take and beat who they had to beat. Even insurgents. At least they could deploy to Iraq and appear to be able to keep operational secrets. Again, it's an outsider's impression and there is much I don't know.

All this discussion about lying really assumes the intel organization is actually working but is just being misused. I almost hope that's the case.

5/05/2006 07:51:00 PM  
Blogger Cannoneer No. 4 said...

JVERITAS - TRANSLATING THE IRAQ DOCUMENTS

5/05/2006 07:52:00 PM  
Blogger Soldier's Dad said...

"That the administration has not been more aggressive in refuting the leftwing is one of the biggest failures of the war."


This crap goes back to McCarthyism. McCarthy was over zealous and discredited himself as a result.(He was right about the infiltration of communists) Republicans have been realing ever since.

The lefties will hang themselves with their own rope, or burn in an Iranian nuclear hell.

5/05/2006 07:53:00 PM  
Blogger 2164th said...

A must read:

Cannoneer No. 4 said...
JVERITAS - TRANSLATING THE IRAQ DOCUMENTS

7:52 PM

5/05/2006 08:01:00 PM  
Blogger Achillea said...

Maybe a lawyer in the house can anwer, would the cops (or neighbor) be liable for damages or does it just suck to be you?

Well, if you were on parole for a previous drug-dealing violation, it would really suck to be you, since one of the terms of your release was your agreement that your palace -- oops, I mean basement -- could be searched at any time, without restriction.

5/05/2006 08:06:00 PM  
Blogger Starling David Hunter said...

2164th

I take issue with the assertion that WMD was the "entire case". There were numerous casus belli offered. The Joint Resolution of October 2002 and the UN Security Council Resolution 1441 both document numerous reasons for war. The former lists 22, by my count and as I read them, they are not 22 synonymous was of saying "we know Saddam still has WMD stockpiles." The administration may have made many mistakes, but failing to list lots of different (but admittedly related) reasons why Saddam's number was then up wasn't one of them.

To be fair, my reading of the casus belli does find that WMD looms very large. Something related to WMD appears in the overwheling number of reasons stated. But again, to suggest that the entire rationale was about WMD, in general, or stockpiles of them, in particular, doesn't square with (my reading of) the official record of rationales.

5/05/2006 08:34:00 PM  
Blogger allen said...

The players in this game are lifelong players within a well established system. The players are incapable of thinking outside the frame of reference of the system. The players are trapped within their paradigm of reality. The system has/is/will continue to fail to meet challenges that do not fit neatly into the available templates of recognizable reality.

Why does Dr. Rice continue to pleasantly spout the vacuous platitudes about the “world community,” while China and Russia evidently have taken a far different tack? It is the only reality the Secretary knows. To move outside that perception of reality would leave her as ignorant and anxious as many of the participants in the blogsphere. Like the generals on a WWI battlefield she will deploy in the only way she knows, despite monumental contradictory evidence of futility. Simply, there is no other way.

Like Wretchard (I think), I would much prefer cunning manipulation, even falsehood, to an impotent blindness and the false confidence of a drunk stumbling and fumbling for his keys in the dark. Give me a Richelieu; spare me the Clemenceau.

Why hasn’t Mr. Bush moved more aggressively to repair or reorganize the system? It seems obvious now that he detected no need.

5/05/2006 09:02:00 PM  
Blogger wretchard said...

Starling David Hunter,

Your observation brings to mind the most famous failure to find WMDs in history, which was of course the postwar discovery that the Germans were nowhere near building an A-bomb. If you recall the well known history, Albert Einstein wrote to Roosevelt and warned him of the imminent danger of a Nazi bomb. On that assessment the US developed an A-bomb and perhaps unnecessarily brought nuclear weapons into the world. Yet although the danger of Hitler's A-bomb loomed large it was hardly the only reason for bringing down the Nazis. If Roosevelt were held to the same standard as GWB ... but that's another story.

5/05/2006 09:09:00 PM  
Blogger wretchard said...

In the previous post I cite some publication asserting that one quarter of the CIA's 100 K employees were fired under Porter Goss. (I haven't checked that figure and report it without comment). Time Magazine has an article (also linked to in the previous post) lamenting the degrading of the CIA's importance. The MSM is now full of stories about the CIA in crisis, etc.

Without taking sides in the fight it is probably safe to assert the existence of a huge bureaucratic fight in Washington. It is probably on a scale unprecedented in the last hundred years. So what can we deduce from the existence of this bureaucratic struggle? It's a huge grapple for power and whichever side one is on, it is not surprising to observe what we've been seeing. Prepare for more.

5/05/2006 09:16:00 PM  
Blogger Craigicus said...

The pre-war intel was good!

Let's wait to see what we find in Syria.

Even if it turns out fifty years from now that there is no nuke nor anthrax nor mustard (ooops, there was some old mustard), nor ricin, it will still be good intel.

All the parts were there, a long history of development, previous intel suggesting collaboration with Al Quaeda (wasn't that Clinton's administration?) in the Sudan, a Middle-East history of states sponsoring radicals to inflict damage on enemies, history of chemical use, and so on. You want to err on the cautious side and it wasn't hard to project the last 2% of certainty.

To say they don't have the gas or the nuke when they do, now that is the bad type of intel.

Saddam was posturing so as to look like he had nukes and bio and chemical. It was Saddam's brinksmanship that brought this on.

This was the right time for a move by the U.S. into the Middle-East. Saddam didn't live up to his contract that he signed with the US after the original invasion. Greater Arabia was developing into a vile snake pit of tyrants and bad players.

Bush seized the chance at the right time to make the bold move. History will look fondly on this second invasion. Even if it turns out bad for now, the bad players are more restrained than they would have ever been otherwise.

5/05/2006 09:17:00 PM  
Blogger blert said...

The US Army has found plenty to crow about in Iraq: binary nerve gas shells for instance.

PROBLEM: Can't crow about CB ordinance that is VERY likely still in possession of the unlawful combatants -- but they don't recognize it.

Saddam created his chemical munitions to look virtually identical to conventional rounds. That way he could shoot them off right in front of French military advisers during the Iran war.

Soooo...

We're in a double bind: Saddam had chemical weapons, we've found them, yet we can't dwell on them -- certainly can't expose them to the media.

The same is true for biological weapons.

It never occurred to us that it is AND ALWAYS WILL BE impossible to present discoveries of WMD ordinance.

Those who argue that Saddam didn’t have these programs will be shamed by history. But it’s going to take quite a while to turn the cards over.

In the meantime, Bush & Co have to suffer yapping fools while holding a poker face. War is hell.

Before OIF virtually everyone expected to find substantial fixed installations that would greatly resemble the surprises found in occupied Nazi Germany. No one expected that Saddam had long structured his entire WMD program to be deniable.

Binary shells that look identical to base-bleed chemical explosive rounds: hidden in plain sight.

Mobile, dual use anaerobic culture grow out rooms: perfect cover in place.

Huge investment in ballistic missile systems lacking any serious military-economic utility – lacking NBC warheads: “Look at what a rich fool I am.”

‘Crop-dusting’ jet fighter-bombers: what a technical breakthrough.

Yes, yes, yes… no WMD here…. Close your lying eyes!

5/05/2006 09:19:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Wikipedia has outdone itself on this topic. All there is to know about what was said publicly, is here.

The accusation that the administration lied, is the lie.

And it's deliberate, as no adult lives in the cartoon world that the Ray McGoverns try to conjure.

5/05/2006 09:27:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

And they'll never prove it because it's bullshit wishful thinking that the New Saladin gave up $50 billion a year in oil revenue to embezzle $10 billion over twelve years because he was actually compliant but feared Iran would exploit any real absence of WMD capability. Or whatever the going theories are: they make no sense according to the only modus operandi the Left acknowledges of "power," and power is the Only Thing that works in the Middle East, so gimme a fucking break. Produce a document, or keep your mouth shut.

5/05/2006 09:46:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Who do these people think they are? That their own little sh*t politics gets to drag the whole free world down to massage their half-baked neuroses? Are we all just props in their theater?

5/05/2006 10:00:00 PM  
Blogger Michael McCullough said...

The MSM wants to ignore the fact that one of Saddam's top generals, General Georges Sada, says that Iraq had WMDs and moved them to Syria.

Never mind the facts that we found several tons of enriched uranium.

-Michael McCullough
Stingray:  a blog for salty Christians

5/05/2006 10:01:00 PM  
Blogger Michael McCullough said...

The biggest problem with the Bush administration is that it has let itself be defined by its enemies. The Democrats make some ridiculous accusation, the mainstream media reports it, and the administration does nothing to fight back.

One prominent Pulitzer Prize winning author wrote just a few weeks that we were on an economic precipice, losing the war in Iraq, and headed for disaster. The whole thing was a lie, but Bush does too little to fight these lies.

-Michael McCullough
Stingray:  a blog for salty Christians

5/05/2006 10:05:00 PM  
Blogger Foobarista said...

One interesting point: I happened to be watching Chinese state TV news (my wife is Chinese and Chinese state TV is carried on local cable) and they actually showed part of the exchange. Rummy made a good comeback, which was loudly appluaded by the audience (most of which was cut off on the broadcast). I'm not sure what the point was of showing this - it frankly doesn't make Chinese officials look good as they never argue with hecklers on official television.

Oddly, they didn't show the part where the Falungong woman challenged Hu a couple of weeks ago; I was in Shanghai at the time.

5/05/2006 10:21:00 PM  
Blogger Eggplant said...

2164th said...

"Loyalty also hurt Bush. His loyalty to Tony Blair led him to support one too many trips to the UN. That entire case was based on WMD."

The above comment pretty much sums it up.

President Bush should have made his case for the Iraq War based upon the need for regime change in Iraq. Unfortunately, the political price demanded by Tony Blair and Colin Powell was to sell the Iraq War to the UN based upon the existance of WMDs. The faulty intelligence available prior to the Iraq War indicated that Saddam still had WMDs. By believing this incorrect data, Bush accepted the weaker political argument to keep Blair and Powell on board. No doubt, Bush assumed the eventual discovery of WMDs in Iraq would later vindicate his decision. Based upon the information he had at the time, it was a reasonable gamble to make.

It's important to emphasize that Bush made a string of gambles like the WMD one when he opted to go after Saddam. Some of the gambles paid off, e.g. the Iraqis did not wage a Stalingrad type defense of Baghdad. Unfortunately the WMD gamble did not pay off.

5/05/2006 10:24:00 PM  
Blogger Eggplant said...

Buddy Larsen said:

"Who do these people think they are? That their own little sh*t politics gets to drag the whole free world down to massage their half-baked neuroses? Are we all just props in their theater?"

I would give that question a big YES.

Soldier's Dad said...

"The lefties will hang themselves with their own rope, or burn in an Iranian nuclear hell."

I wouldn't mind so much if only the lefties were burning (it might actually improve things if they did). Unfortunately when the Iranian nukes start going off, my family and I (along with the rest of us) are going to be burning with the lefties.

5/05/2006 10:34:00 PM  
Blogger Pierre Legrand said...

It is not "crap" to suggest that the Administration do a better job of defending our fully justified reasons for going into Iraq.
The lefties will hang themselves with their own rope, or burn in an Iranian nuclear hell.
Yea I keep waiting for that to happen and since I have started waiting I have watched the "discredited" lefties gain more and more power. Sure they lose elections but they control every other aspect of our national life, starting with education and the press...except for blogs.

Before we bloggers pat ourselves too firmly on the back lets remember we have not been able to counter the absolute full court press by the left wing to discredit the war. We won a couple of small fights where the MSM made up some real whoppers. But we have lost all the most important fights where the MSM was making up stories so outrageous that no one would believe they were making it up. For instance we have lost the debate with the population of the United States that Saddam was joined at the hip with every single major terrorist organisation in the ME. How? It was common knowledge and yet the MSM drowned us out.

One of the ways we lost the fight was that we didn't get any help from the Bush administration. This was probably a function of the CIA being in open revolt but still President Bush should have moved immediately to cripple that mess of incompetents. As an aside during the movie Bourne Supremecy I leaned over to my wife and whispered that we could only wish our intelligence services were so "fearsome" and competent.

Yes it is true that the Bush administration did cite Saddams terrorist connections. But instead of using all of the evidence that was open source to show the connections all they did was cite Saddams funding of terror bombings in Israel. Not one single mention was made by any Bush administration official of the Radio Free Europe bombing plot by the man who met Atta, Al Ani. Only one half hearted mention of the attempt to assasinate Former President Bush which President Bush ran away from as soon as the press asked whether it was proper to start a war for the desire of a son to seek revenge. As if attempting to assasinate a former US President is done all the time by failed States. After a few half hearted attempts to link Saddam to terror the effort was given up. And with that effort went the support for the war.

It was simply fantasy to believe that a parent will gladly send his child to war to avenge the violations of the United Nations. The Bush adminstration apparently believed that was compelling...and their poll numbers prove their error.

And then lets not forget that if we accept the Adminstrations default main reason for going to war, the desire to stop the spread of WMD's. We failed. We moved slow enough to allow Saddam to move them. We moved slow enough to allow Syria and Iran to hide them. We moved timidly enough that both of those nations believe we won't hold them to account.

No I am no longer facinated with the Bush adminstration. Count me in that percentage of conservatives who wonder whether the President we watched in awe on September 20, 2001 give one of the best speeches of any US President has been kidnapped by aliens.

5/05/2006 10:36:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

I just can't help but wonder, since there've been numerous findings of significant quantities of WMD, is there some quantitative level that the actual stuff actually found, doesn't quite reach, and so the 'shortfall' below this mysterious level is what allows the "No WMD!" to continue?

5/05/2006 10:40:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Pierre said "No I am no longer facinated with the Bush adminstration."

Of course you're not. When its every step is dogged by lung-ripping politics, human nature is such that after awhile you just get tired of lung-ripping politics. The knowledge that it's the oppo causing it, is strictly a secondary knowledge. The Big Guy is still the cause, he makes 'em do it by his being, and when you're tired you just want it to all go away.

This is, of course, the strategy of the oppo, and explains the shameless jack-in-the-box bounce-back after every fact-based knock-down.

5/05/2006 10:51:00 PM  
Blogger Eggplant said...

Pierre Legrand said:

"Before we bloggers pat ourselves too firmly on the back lets remember we have not been able to counter the absolute full court press by the left wing to discredit the war. We won a couple of small fights where the MSM made up some real whoppers. But we have lost all the most important fights where the MSM was making up stories so outrageous that no one would believe they were making it up."

Remember that prior to the Internet, the liberals owned the MSM and most of academia. The liberals were the gatekeepers of our information sources and mostly controlled the political debate. Dan Rather's behavior with the forged National Guard documents reeked of arrogance. One could easily imagine Dan Rather laughing with his MSM cronies about how his story was going to end Bush's political career and put Kerry in the White House (classic hubris). Had that happened, the GWoT would have been a failure and we'd now be sitting ducks waiting for the next 9/11 outrage (probably nuclear). Our whole political system was being stage managed by LLL bastards.

Unfortunately the MSM still has significant power but they've taken a major hit (maybe fatal for them).

5/05/2006 11:01:00 PM  
Blogger VonRichtofen said...

The idea that "Rumsfeld lied" is stupid. Even if Rumsfeld lied - the Secretary of Defense doesn't decide if we go to war or not. His job is to be sure that the military has everything it needs to do the job and does it right once we decide to go. So it is besides the point.

What is more interesting is the ex-Generals and now Ex-CIA all gunning for Rummy. One can only conclude that Rummy has been spectacularly successful at revamping the military for the 21st century - and thus has made enemies in these two places. As Eisenhower pointed out - beware the Military-Industrial Complex. To that we might add the CIA as well. Certain military intelligence activities are now running parallel with the CIA and that probably does not make the CIA happy.

5/05/2006 11:09:00 PM  
Blogger trish said...

"President Bush should have made his case for the Iraq War based upon the need for regime change in Iraq."

Was anyone in doubt that the whole point of the war was regime change in Iraq?

Regime change needed a case, which the admin proceeded to supply. Three-legged stool: support of terrorism; WMD; and the humanitarian (or democratization) angle. We don't fight wars anymore without a well-developed and heavily advertised humanitarian angle. Witness OEF before it even began.

Speaking of which: Who's out there pushing the humanitarian angle on Iran?

Anyone?

Hmmmm.

5/05/2006 11:30:00 PM  
Blogger trish said...

When some future administration does get around to making and pushing the humanitarian case for regime change in Iran, we'll know that the whole operation is damaged goods to begin with.

5/05/2006 11:42:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Great Job on CNN, Aristides:
I watched that one and concluded nothing of substance was proved, but they did stage it to make it appear that Rumsfeld did indeed "LIE" about "bulletproof," which even if he had contradicted himself, would not have amounted to anything.
Too bad your Sterling refutation of their BS can't find a larger audience somewhere.
---
Pierre, Canoneer, 2164th:
One of Hewitt's guests said Negroponte became the biggest obstacle to releasing the documents Steven Hayes has begged for all these years.

Wouldn't want the public to know anything, would we, or have a chance for thousands of people to pore over the papers and get a few translated.
But Negroponte is a Diplomat, Goss wasn't, Negroponte worked at the UN, Goss wouldn't be caught dead.
The only men left in the admin are Cheney and Rummy imo.
---
"We must have a leader with strong credentials, a demonstrated track record of independence and objectivity, and the ability to bring much needed harmony within the ranks"
said Sen. John D. Rockefeller IV
---
Kum bay ya.
Gelded CIA and FBI agents, Girlie ROE's, Kid Glove detainment, no hot pursuit (Vietnam redux)
we're so sensitive and feminized I can hardly stand it.
Whata way to fight a war.

Smoothing democrat feathers prior to their next B... F... of GWB seems to be the administration's highest priority.
While sticking it to the base, not vetoing one bit of pork, and encouraging ever more invaders from the South.

5/05/2006 11:56:00 PM  
Blogger 2164th said...

Pierre legrande said:

"No I am no longer fascinated with the Bush administration. Count me in that percentage of conservatives who wonder whether the President we watched in awe on September 20, 2001 give one of the best speeches of any US President has been kidnapped by aliens."

The tragedy with Bush is that he was very much like those one hit musicians. You loved one song, bought the album, and only played that one song. Two of the greatest presidential performances in history will be the rubble bullhorn speech and the strike at Yankee Stadium. It was magic, presidential theater at its finest. How did a nation go from being awe struck to not being able to stand listening to the man speak? Politics is the cruelest profession. It seduces the aspirant and can crush a man completely. Richard M. Nixon, one of the greatest American Presidents, capable, brilliant and deliciously ruthless was reduced to a man without a country, or a friend, by the profession which was the love of his life. George Walker Bush will go down in history as a man who seized one grand moment and failed to control the political stage. He will forever be the jilted lover of his chosen craft.

5/06/2006 12:04:00 AM  
Blogger 2164th said...

Starling David Hunter
8:34 PM,

I always enjoy your posting and consider your objection. My argument is simply that GWB failed to anticipate his enemies and walked into a trap of his own creation. A better politician would have heard what his audience was hearing. They only remembered WMD.

5/06/2006 12:12:00 AM  
Blogger Eggplant said...

Trish said:

"Regime change needed a case, which the admin proceeded to supply. Three-legged stool: support of terrorism; WMD; and the humanitarian (or democratization) angle. We don't fight wars anymore without a well-developed and heavily advertised humanitarian angle."

As we all know, Saddam was a monster who launched two unprovoked wars against his neighbors mainly to seize their petroleum resources, attempted genocide against his own people and was in violation of several UN security council resolutions. Iraq also made extensive use of nerve and mustard gas against the Iranians during the Iran-Iraq war. Iraq's barbarous behavior during their occupation of Kuwait was more than adequate justification for regime change. In terms of public justification for the Iraq War, any of those arguments could have been used in place of the WMD argument.

I should emphasize that the main reason why I supported the Iraq War and continue to support it was because Iraq provided an excellent killing area for dispatching Islamic fascists (I suspect this was Bush's main motivation as well). I'm really sold on the idea of killing terrorists in the Middle East rather than on American or European soil. I'm quite pleased to say that thousands of these vermin have been killed in Iraq.

Of course the standard moonbat response is that thousands of additional terrorists were produced as a consequence of the Iraq War. IMHO, that's a specious argument. Those terrorists were already in the madressa pipeline before 9/11. Those people were coming after us no matter what we did. Also, I believe we've killed off the very flower of Islamic fascism, i.e. the guys who had actual combat experience in Afghanistan fighting against the Soviets. Most of what's appearing now are guys with little combat experience, e.g. suicide bombers and cowards planting IEDs. In the mean time we've developed an experienced combat force who are expert at killing Islamic terrorists on the enemy's turf (our soldiers have experienced and survived almost every dirty trick the fascists could throw at them). IMHO, this has been an excellent response to 9/11.

5/06/2006 12:12:00 AM  
Blogger 2164th said...

Doug said..

"Kum bay ya.
Gelded CIA and FBI agents, Girlie ROE's, Kid Glove detainment, no hot pursuit (Vietnam redux)
we're so sensitive and feminized I can hardly stand it.
Whata way to fight a war."

AMEN

5/06/2006 12:16:00 AM  
Blogger 2164th said...

Iraq Warns on Iran Border Moves

By Jim Muir
BBC News, Baghdad


"Mr Zebari has attempted to play down any tensions
Iraq has expressed concern about troop build-ups by both Iranian and Turkish forces along their borders with Iraq."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4979582.stm

Is this the making of a new Iraq? It is beginning to sound like statecraft.

5/06/2006 12:32:00 AM  
Blogger ledger said...

It appears like the Election Season is upon us.

We see a sudden flurry of the old "Bush lied to steal the oil... No WMD were ever found in Iraq... Porter Gross probably use a limo service with all of the extra 'services' for free at our expense..." lines plus the appearance of lefty CIA "experts" such as Ray McGovern and Larry Johnson to push an agenda. And, it's well known that Andrew Sullivan dislikes Rumsfeld - whatever the cause. That is Not News. It's all Politics.

I need not recount Wretchard's deconstruction of Ray McGovern and Larry Johnson. Wretchard has done a fine job of showing them to be aggressive partisan hacks.

I agree with Wretchard's theme that the fact that no large military bases armed with chemical or biological weapons were found (after the Coalition Troops secured various parts of Iraq) doesn't prove Saddam did not have said weapons.

Saddam could have hid them during that time frame. That is obvious.

Wretchard and other posters have clearly stated that Saddam and his partners could have easily moved said weapons to other locations where they were stored or buried. I agree. In fact, the "Case of the WMD" are is far from closed.

Further, Saddam's conventional weapons and his shredder happy sons were basically WMDs themselves (Hitler is a like example using convention weapons to kill on a massive scale). Thus, to say that the War was unjustified is not true.

As to the CIA and the departure of Porter Gross, I believe that we saw a realignment of a governmental structure in the classic D.C. fashion.

The guy on the way out is gone on Friday and on Monday things will resume. That's the way things happen in D.C.

What's the real cause? Was it poor leak control? Was it Negroponte consolidating power? Was it a vast scheme to dismantle the CIA and rebuild it under a new name? I don't know.

One thing I do know, an effective Intelligence Agency should keeps it's profile low and not splash it's internal business all over the NYT or the WoPo.

Further, having some "100,000" agents employed (including the likes of Ray McGovern and Larry Johnson) would seem to the average Joe to be a large pool of potential leakers - or worse.

If more "consolidation" or "shrinking" is needed to stop said leaks - then let it move forward.

I would like to see Less Bickering and Leaks from the intelligence community and more unexplained Positive Results in the battle area.

5/06/2006 01:58:00 AM  
Blogger Habu_1 said...

One,if not the most important maxims in intelligence is that you protect sources and methods above all else.
The best historical example is Chuchill's position to warmn the people of Coventry that they were about to be bombed. He did not tel them because in the greater scope of the war it was more important to protect Ultra, the broken German code.
POTUS,SECDEF et al are under great pressure to do the same as the pieces get moved around the chess board.
We finally gave up intel on our knowledge that the Russian Spetnaz (special forces) trucked the WMD's to Syria. But we did it only in confirmation of what a top Iragi general told us. I'm sure we already knew.
You can't give up sources and methods to prove one point for a more vital need may arise to use them and they take years to develop.
So, in concert with what you are told by every intelligence agency you work with, that , yes WMD's are present you make your case sans sources and methods, your oxygen.
That "Truth Teller" was in league with Danial Ellsburg tells volumes of his predisposition. He knew what Rummy could say and adjusted his query to cast the worst light on him. To cite today's print sources is a fools game .. they lie with great regularity to harm,not help the USA. Most are socialist if no romantic followers of Che.
When you are on the inside of the CIA as I was you know only what you need to know. There is a large computer print out with all intel people in it and what they are cleared to know. I had every "ticket" but one that the President had. I knew the press lied time and again,everyday.
Rummy was protecting, not harming the citizenry.

5/06/2006 03:04:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...

Well, well, well, we may take heart. The Washington Post carries the inside story of the removal of Mr. Goss from CIA. And what can the ever knowledgeable scribes tell us: absolutely NOTHING.

It appears that the usual suspects may be getting the message: if you say, you will pay. In my opinion, that is a good thing. For that bit of consolation I’ll gladly waste the time of a perusal of the Post’s ineffectual handiwork.

It seems likely that another shoe will eventually drop in the Goss saga but, at least for the moment, the Washington Post appears as ignorant of what that shoe may be as the rest of us. Good.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/
05/AR2006050500937_pf.html

For some real news, I wish the Post would tell us what Representative Kennedy knew and when he knew it.

5/06/2006 05:27:00 AM  
Blogger Annoy Mouse said...

The CIA has been diminishing in importance as three letter agencies are concerned. I have been convinced for years that it was still being held together as kind of a war hero after the civil war. Further more, with it's previous ferocious reputation, I thought that it was being kept around as a red herring, or a sh!t magent as you will. But it seems that the malcontents finished a job that was never really meant to happen.

5/06/2006 06:06:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

There is a piece by the "Style" Editor, over at the WaPo.
Usually, I'd skip over the "Style", but what Henry Allen has to say in Winning's Everything" is insightful.

I'd say that 'cause the fellow agrees with me.
Bet he didn't even know.

5/06/2006 06:21:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...

desert rat,

Your 6:21 AM - Winning's Everything"

You, sir, are to be commended for pointing out an excellent piece of prose.

Indeed, we are all trapped within our own mental construct of reality. One of the admirably remarkable virtues of this site and Wretchard's work are their insistence on forcing us out of our limited perspective and comfort-zone, if we wish to be taken seriously by others here.

Thanks.

5/06/2006 06:56:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...

pork rinds for allah,

Your 8:20 PM - remember if you kill us, you destroy your OWN beliefs

Please accept my apology for having failed to respond to your comment on an earlier, now dead thread. Real life can be such a drag. I also beg pardon of others on this thread for the intrusion.

I really wish you had made your case more forcefully. Ha! Ha!

Although I would have taken a more oblige tack, you are onto something that viscerally has affected both Christians and Muslims, leading to Jewish persecution, segregation, discrimination, banishment and murder. You see “jealousy” as causative. While I claim no ready label to describe the malady, I believe it existential.

For centuries, Jews have been accused by the Roman Church, Luther and the Reformers, and by Muslims of having maliciously expurgated, expunged, forged and altered the ancient Jewish texts. Say the antagonists, the rabbis did so to combat the newer revelations claimed by the other faiths. In short, for millennia the rabbis conspired and lied in order to protect a deficient faith. Then came 1948 and with it the discovery of the oldest yet known Jewish texts.

For decades, the world patiently awaited the publication of the Dead Sea Scrolls et al. The more time that passed without publication, the more the rumors and conspiracy theories grew to explain the translators’ tardiness. No matter who was faulted, it was always implicitly understood that the cause was the fear of revealing some newly discovered, earth shattering truths or revelations, long hidden from view in the Judean desert. The controversial atmosphere, throughout, was much like that now seen with the publication of the Coptic “Book of Judas.”

So, what great secret had long lain dormant in the caves of Qumran? As it turns, none – the texts proved that the Jews had been extremely conscientious preservationist of original Bible texts. Such scribal errors as had occurred during the millennia were trivial and inconsequential. Succinctly, after fifty plus years of meticulous work, modern scholars were able to confidently say that the received Jewish Tanakh had never been corrupted by Jewish scholars in reaction to the threats of Christianity or Islam. In a word, the Jewish “Bible” had always been and remained uncorrupted and true to its original formulation.

Was the authentication of the Tanakh revelatory? Oh, yes, and to a degree not entirely appreciated. You see, with the validation of the Jewish account of theology, the other faiths, reliant upon incorrect interpretations and, thereby, faulty exegeses, have some splan’n to do. You ain’t seen nothin’ yet.

Pork rinds, Jews always have been and remain a threat, simply by their existence and their custodianship of sacred writ. So long as Jews exist, they serve as a living indictment of the ever evolving, ever young, fall of man. But, take heart, because ultimately all will be right. Recount the words of John Adams (a man awestruck by Jews), “Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”

Shalom!

5/06/2006 07:09:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

I think you're right--the Jews make the godless and the godly-pretenders so uncomfortable that any power such men accrue turns to expression. Thus antisemitism has always been a very reliable reverse indicator of general psycho-spiritual health.

5/06/2006 07:48:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

WSJ sez to put Negroponte in @ CIA and Rudy G to DNI!

5/06/2006 08:16:00 AM  
Blogger Boghie said...

Wretchard's main point was stated in his comments. The first of which contains:


"Intel didn't see 9/11 coming. It didn't forsee Turkey would reject the 4ID; it couldn't find the WMDs in Iraq; it has not, to this day, found Zarqawi. In a way it would be more comforting if Rumsfeld did lie. It would mean we actually knew the truth and chose to lie about it. What seems more likely is that intelligence knows comparatively little that was definite. And that is a far more dangerous indicator operationally, than a commander's willingness to lie. It goes to a deficiency in capability, not intent."


What Wretchard at the Belmont Club is stating – in part – is that we Americans can resolve a lie. We can fire people, force people out of office, elect other politicians, and impeach the President. We can do these things and more!!!

But, what can we do if we have no capability of resolving the problem?

5/06/2006 08:29:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Fox just announced Negroponte's top deputy Michael Hayden will be named CIA chief, come monday.

Also, next item after the Hayden announcement, came the announcement that Valerie Plame is signing a 7-figure book deal with her publisher.

5/06/2006 08:37:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

As well she should, buddy.

Ms Plame is not to blame for all the flame,
or is it Mrs Wilson?

Where's Dennis the Menace?

Another series of lies dealt as truths. Mr Wilson reported that Iraqi had attempted to purchase yellowcake.

Another manufactured crisis.
And to what end...
Scooter was not indicted for passing information, but perjury.

So whom ever "outed" Ms Plame is secondary, at best.
Indeed the entire Plame Affair is a much ado about nothing.
Unless you're Scooter
or Ms Plame

Maybe someone would buy the autobiography of a desert rat for that kind of cash, a movie as well
Who's her agent?

5/06/2006 08:51:00 AM  
Blogger trangbang68 said...

Doug at 11:56 decries the feminism and over-sensitivity of the homeland in fighting the brownshirts in headscarves.Couldn't agree more.
Listening to the jury report on Moussaoi verdict;I didn't know whether to laugh or cry.It sounded like a Monty Python bit.7 in 12 informed American citizens feel sympathy for ZM because he was a or a victim of or bipolar or ADD or co-dependant.Surreal.
Maybe one day,Ophrah,Dr.Phil,Mother Sheehan and Kristin Breitwiser can visit him in his cell and hold hands and well...empathize.Until he pull out a shank and slits their touchy feely throats.I think we're losing this war and there will be hell to pay.

5/06/2006 09:01:00 AM  
Blogger trangbang68 said...

lost in translation-Moussaoui elicits sympathy because he was illegitimate and cast aside because he was dark-skinned.

5/06/2006 09:04:00 AM  
Blogger Jamie Irons said...

Allen (7:09 AM):

Wonderful post!

(However OT it may be! ;-)

You would be interested in a most fascinating piece in The Claremont Review of Books (Spring 2006) on Harold Bloom's Jesus and Jahweh: The Names Divine by Benjamin Balint.

(Bloom was one of my professors at Yale; he seemed to like me after I told him my dad had been born in Hart Crane's house! ;-)

Bloom, who in my view is more a poet than a critic, has had one magnificent idea: his "anxiety of influence."

(How many of us have had even one magnificent idea!?)

According to Balint:

Bloom interprets the Trinity as an essentially polytheistic "structure of anxiety" in which God the Father--whom Bloom finds "lacking in personality"--is a mere shade of Yahweh"...

(!!!)

Jamie Irons

5/06/2006 09:07:00 AM  
Blogger trish said...

My daughter's French teacher:

"You do realize how stupid you look."

Um, yeah.

5/06/2006 09:16:00 AM  
Blogger trish said...

'You' in the collective.

5/06/2006 09:23:00 AM  
Blogger trangbang68 said...

More on Moussaoui trial.Isn't this the crux of the matter.The left (at least the ones not actively rooting for our defeat) want to treat the GWOT as a law enforcement issue and the stone cold killahs as criminals.Of course liberal jurisprudence has concluded that evil isn't inherent in human nature and all criminals are victims of societal oppression.We just need to understand them and be nice.
In reality an ideology must be put in the dock and judged and declared evil and incompatible with civilization.The next step from this conclusion is not trying to understand our enemies,but to crush them,burn the villages that shield them and make public spectacles of their demise.Why I think,hanging Moussaoui,Bin Al Shieb,Kalid Sheik Mohammad,Ramzi Yousef,Sheik Abdel Rahman from a girder at the WTC would have been fitting theatre.Fear this Akmal!

5/06/2006 09:25:00 AM  
Blogger Pierre Legrand said...

Desert Rat 6:21 great article.

Here is my somewhat less authoritative view of that same issue from June 2005.

War with rules, the new fun way to try and lose.

5/06/2006 09:43:00 AM  
Blogger Jamie Irons said...

Pierre Legrand:

I enjoyed your piece.

'Rat (6:21 AM):

What a find! In the style section of WaPo yet!

I think the author's thought that our leaders may not know that they don't know how to win is the probable reason for our difficulties.

Thanks!

Jamie Irons

5/06/2006 10:11:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

The LA Times has an Editorial about Mr Morales and the continued Energy War.
Now the LA Times does not call it an Energy War, nor even a Socialist War.
Really they do not even call it a War, except to say
But sending in the army to take over the gas fields isn't the answer to Bolivia's problems.

except of course that the fields are in Bolivia, so it's another "Nationalization".

The LA Times then remarks on Boliva's current course

Morales instead is running into the arms of Cuba's Fidel Castro and Venezuela's Hugo Chavez, a direction likely to impose a heavy cost on his impoverished nation of 9 million

But Mr Morales's constituents have never benefited from the Energy Sales, so for them the "Unnatural Disaster" will have no effect.

Only the "Internationalists" in Bolivia will be effected, not the subsistance farmers.

It's another hit on the
New World Order

5/06/2006 10:31:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Columbia's just granted ability to buy soybeans in the US means that American farmers have gained another market, while Bolivian will see sales of their higher priced product plummet.

These are Mr Morales's folk and he has a new Trade Agreement with Mr Chavez that guarentees the soybean price supports.
High oil prices will support Mr Morales's move, even if Bolivia's direct energy sales drop to nada.

5/06/2006 10:42:00 AM  
Blogger rhhardin said...

Stanley Cavell has a couple of nice turns of phrase in explaining ``knowing in an instant,'' to draw out what knowing is, and hence a little what lying might be. It's not what the left wants to claim.

``Knowing in a moment, like suddenly claiming to remember a tune, does not claim to be right : the only thing it could be right about is what it claims to know or to be able to produce on the spot, in the moment, which preempts the room for claiming, for justifying. It is not a claim to be justified by evidence or reasoning, but a sally of conviction; its failure is no surprise and no threat to the powers of human knowledge. Given the complexity of our powers, this sort of thing is bound to happen, not the failure but the sally, failing or succeeding. The response to this failure is not like, ``So I didn't know [...] after all,'' but just, in full, roughtly, ``Damn!''

_Conditions Handsome and Unhandsome_ p.74

Partly knowing of WMD's seems to me to have been putting together a pattern, and knowing from the accumulation. Being wrong about that would be a ``Damn!'' sort of result, not a lie.

5/06/2006 10:55:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

The AP's Fiona Smith puffs the Castro system (tho she does mention the taking of names, and USA aid to Bolivia (that it's long-running and considerable, and dwarfs the Castro/Chavez effort, you'll have to figure out for yourself). Newsweek leans in, too.

rat is right, that the marriage of the deluge of new oil revenues to the needs of the poorest, is above criticism. Methodology aside, the overarching truth is right there.

5/06/2006 11:01:00 AM  
Blogger Starling David Hunter said...

2164th,

first thank you for your kind words. Secondly, your point about knowing what the audience is hearing is very well-taken. A leader bears responsibility not only for what he says but also for what is said in his name by his surrogates and, of course, what people understood him to say.

It's been 3-1/2 years now since the Joint resolution. I can't recall whether my impression at the time was that all people were hearing was WMD or whether the impression was developed post hoc as the President's detractors pushed the "Where's the WMD" meme harder and harder, with every passing day (hour, actually) that WMD were not found.

5/06/2006 11:05:00 AM  
Blogger DanMyers said...

rhhardin,

Excellent source, Thank You.

I see the lefts movement on this as a bit more sinister. It is only actionable if it is a lie.. Therefore it must be a lie. If it doesn't advance the "cause" it would be another lie that they drum into the masses.

Wouldn't it be nice to sit in on some of the Strategery sessions? Surely this isn't a mass spontaneous movement... People aren't naturally that....stupid?

5/06/2006 11:17:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Note that Ms. Smith of the AP finds the fact that the cocaine growers have taken a national government--and more or less de-criminalized (if not made patriotic) narcoterrorism de-facto--hardly worth mention.

One wonders how USA will be able to keep up the hundreds of millions of foreign aid to Bolivia, once we're all coked-up and worthless.

5/06/2006 11:18:00 AM  
Blogger DanMyers said...

There ya' go Buddy,

How about showing the world a "Day without the USA"?

5/06/2006 11:21:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

We for sure the Daddy country, with a houseful of delinquent kids, and Momma (our Dems) eggin' 'em on. I want a dee-vorce.

5/06/2006 11:25:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

You can always join the piRats of the Caribe, buddy, better than the French Foreign Legend.
Lousy pay, good fringe benifits.

Just a moderate investment of time and money and you to could be in Paradise. Now with Sirius Satellite, Jimmy Buffett owns the air waves, piRat music without CDs.
Heck, you could stay in Texas and join up.

Freedom's more than a state of mind.
Or nothin' else to lose

5/06/2006 11:35:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Haw--send me a brochure from margaritaville, rat--I used to stomp around down there, and must admit the cobalt water, azure air, fine white sand, and green mountains running to the sea, will be so much finer if not flying over to some damn drilling rig in the jungle.

5/06/2006 11:44:00 AM  
Blogger Habu_1 said...

Mr. D Rat.

Thanks for pointing out the Washington Post piece on winning.

I enjoyed it very much.

5/06/2006 11:54:00 AM  
Blogger Habu_1 said...

does anyone know if Boston's funding of an Islamic Mosque has been challenged by anyone in court?



and would a velvet prayer rug with an Elvis likeness be accceptable in the mosque?

5/06/2006 12:14:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

No Elvis, but Wretchard gets a nice mention (ht instap) in this topical essay:

5/06/2006 12:25:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

Apparantly the "noble purple fingered, freedom loving" Shia who were rescued from Saddams death pits are mixing it up with the Brits in Basra. Someone shot a UK helicopter down, many deaths, and cheering mobs descended on the wreckage to get souvenirs and throw stones at the British rescue forces.

Which didn't sit too well with the Brits not wanting "grateful, liberated Shia" waving around body pieces of British soldiers...so crowds scattered, militia and "noble democracy-hungry" people shot...At least 5 Iraqis killed, including a little noble Iraqi child trying to throw a Molotov cocktail.

More to follow on the peaceful Shia and their latest display of gratitude towards infidel filth....

IMO, only the Kurds are worth shedding blood for. I don't care if Shia and Sunni Arabs are let loose to butcher one another until a civil war is done.

*********************
Alas, even Wretchard still believes, apparantly, the Russians did as the ever-reliable Israelis claimed....moved "vast stockpiles of hidden WMD" into Syria.

3 years of fanatic head-choppers infiltrating into Iraq from Syria has not shown any infiltration of the supposed "vast quantity" to use on Americans or crowds of non-Sunni Iraqis. 3 years of interrogating top leaders, Saddam, the scientists has uncovered squat other than a unanimous message that all WMD were destroyed in 1995-96. Curious??

The other defenses of the "true believers:

A. "We have found plenty of bianary shells, but we're keeping it secret from the public." Why?

B. "Absence of evidence proving the US did not destroy all their biowar agents - does not mean the US hasn't hidden vast secret stockpiles of anthrax, smallpox, tuleremia somewhere.." Ooops, wrong country, sorry...."Absence of any evidence and everyone saying it was destroyed does not in fact mean that vast secret stockpiles of Iraqi WMD don't exist."

We had special forces and eye in the sky planes all over the Iraqi desert and did in fact stop and shoot up one Russian convoy and found nothing. And concluded that other movements by foreign elements - Russian, Taiwanese, French, German, Saudi - that were actually communicated to us so we wouldn't shoot at them, were the usual cars full of diplomatic paperwork it would be embarassing to see the light of day...not truckloads of nerve gas shells or tankloads of Iraqi anthrax suddenly given to foreigners to safeguard.

The only claim of this is the original Israeli assertions that they somehow "saw" heavy trucks in the dozens that US and Australian special forces monitoring movements on the ground missed, and our satellites and recon planes never saw - which curiously the Israelis won't show us their pictures or let other intel agencies interview their sources on.

Remember how the Israelis and neocons were so hot for the US to take out Syria on the heels of our "cakewalk victory" over the Iraqis? Hmmmm, now what possible motive would the Israelis and neos have for us invading and occupying Syria??

Now none of them are agitating for Syria. Instead, Iran is now the immenent peril to the USA that must be "taken out" by "easy surgical bombing" before the diplomacy plays out, because the US can't afford to wait...and they have firm evidence the "noble, democracy-hungry Iranians" are just waiting to cheer our "liberating bombs".

Unh, huh...

5/06/2006 12:30:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

You left out the Chinook that went down in Afghanistan with ten soldiers, C4. Better get "busy" and keep "up to date" on the "bad news" "items", you "don't" want to "miss" any "opportunities", do "you"?

5/06/2006 12:41:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_1 said...

Hurley's Market Shopper Guide says there is now developing a crying need for civilian sniper's on the US southern border.
In this manner it will force the US to get troops down there.

Same article mentioned some selective thinning elsewhere.

C-4 I also understand that right here in the States several members of our volunteer army were hurt in training acccidents ..please try to be comprehensive in your diatribes.

5/06/2006 12:50:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Our top spy agent was a womanizer.
Kicked out of Yemen by oh so politically correct hippie Ambassador Barbara Bodine, fellow graduate at UCSB with her Buddy, the honorable Ambassador of Dope and false hope, Mr. Wilson.
Top spy agent went on to die in 9-11.
Thanks Babs.
Mr. Goss will go back to his Organic garden, leaving DC to the Politically Correct, Feminized, and oh so Compassionate Warriors.
Spies and their masters only associate with proper folks these days.
And their Boss is so pure that he hangs out with the devout.
(Including Devout Wahhabists, of course, wouldn't want to discriminate.)
Meanwhile, Sandy, Gorelick et al walk.

5/06/2006 12:50:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_1 said...

C-4

What is the environment of your highest threat level? The Mad Hatters Teacup ride or Space Mountain?

Or was it that hetero Chrismas party you attended before the operation?

5/06/2006 12:55:00 PM  
Blogger Kyda Sylvester said...

Sorry Pierre 6:41,
The only one qualified in articulating a response is inarticulate to a fault. This administration is a failure. It is incapable of defending and reasserting itself. it is really too bad and I am sincere in that.


Sorry, 2164th, but anyone who judges Richard Nixon "one of the greatest American presidents" isn't much of a judge of presidents or presidencies.

5/06/2006 12:57:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Fox is reporting from Athens, what are being called "anti-globalization" rioters are in the streets, and have torched four banks and a McDonalds. They're carrying signs and shouting "Hands off Iran!" and "Bush is the #1 terrorist!"

There, C4--some more grim news. But, at least they're inserting the "#1" into the chant--meaning that they won't deny that Iran is at least a terrorist. Right?

Who are these rioters? They look like western college kids. Do they want Iranian nukes aimed at Athens?

Man this flood of new iol revenue is showing up all over the globe. The Russian birthrate has turned up, Venezuela has resuscitated Castro, cocaine has a new government shield, UK is stepping away from GWB, Cheney is having to make Cold War speeches, and the US deputy ambassador to Pakistan has just announced publicly that the Paki gov't is underperforming the war. The quick jump from $50 to $70 has set the dogs loose, and we STILL can't drill ANWAR or the outer shelf. I think we need to wall off DC and set up a provisional.

5/06/2006 01:02:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_1 said...

kwequa slmvestra,
Everyone know JIMMA CARTER wuz ourwa greatest president.

5/06/2006 01:07:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_1 said...

buddy...
i can't say it enough times..before Russia and China sign a mutual defense treaty with Iran we MUST wipe them out. After that it'll be too late.

Stone age 'em NOW.

5/06/2006 01:10:00 PM  
Blogger DanMyers said...

So,

Does anyone think that Russia is revvin' up the ol' red underground machine yet? I'm guessin' maybe Venezuela, Bolivia and maybe even Greece (not that they've ever had a communist bent). Cause trouble on all fronts, that is old USSR KGB training, isn't it Habu?

5/06/2006 01:19:00 PM  
Blogger PeterBoston said...

Is there anybody not sick and tired of these ankle-biting assholes?

5/06/2006 01:35:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_1 said...

danmyers
... you can bet on it. all those 600,000 KGB, yes that was our estimate in the 1980's didn't just become hot dog vendors.
Putin is old KGB and is rounding up the posse and revving up the "wet" works ie, killers and fomenting unrest worldwide.
W thought he saw Putin's soul through his eyes when they first met. It was a Rio carnival mask.

also that 600k figure did not include the GRU people.

5/06/2006 01:39:00 PM  
Blogger blert said...

1:10 PM Habu_1 said...

“i can't say it enough times..before Russia and China sign a mutual defense treaty with Iran we MUST wipe them out. After that it'll be too late.

Stone age 'em NOW.”

Hey now!

Iran is already working point!

She’s already protecting them.

Of course, crushing Russia and China makes sense on its own terms.

5/06/2006 01:45:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_1 said...

c-4 you 12:40

... and you could tell they were shia by what method?

"someone shot down" ..but the rest is Shia this and Shia that ... are you imbedded?
Bagdad Bob told me they were disgruntled GM workers masking as pro Che marxist at the direction of the Shah's old Savak ... disprove that.

5/06/2006 01:53:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Welcome to the Oil Wars. Build 8 more carrier battle groups, for an even 20. And that new hunter/killer sub--the replacement for the Los Angeles Class, get a move on--double the order.

5/06/2006 01:56:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_1 said...

blert
..there's no formal mutual defense treaty YET ..that will make it impossible.
Iran may be pointman now but not formally. It do make a dif'rence

5/06/2006 01:57:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

F-22 starting to make a little more sense, suddenly?

5/06/2006 01:59:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_1 said...

buddy...
hydrochlorphyl nano bugs ..billions all programmmed to eat Persians,Arabs,Chinese, and Russians ...and sh*t oil as a waste by product

5/06/2006 02:02:00 PM  
Blogger Alexis said...

habu 1 (3:04):

The new emphasis on preventing terrorist attacks worries me. That's because prevention allows al-Qaeda and its allies to constantly improve their internal security against infiltration. Remember what happened when somebody leaked how the NSA monitored Osama bin Laden's cell phone!

Let's say that some intelligence agency knew that a terrorist group had a nuke and was in the process of bringing it to Philadelphia. Let's also assume that taking any extraordinary measures to stop the nuke shipment would "burn" our sources of information and kill off our big chance to wipe out that terrorist organization. So, the choice is to either let an American city get nuked while destroying the enemy organization or prevent the attack by "burning" our source of information.

Question for the era: how can we thwart terrorist attacks while protecting our sources?

5/06/2006 02:04:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

In Havana, in October.
Even up bet that the Ruskies show up, not Mr Putin, but his agents.

The bad guys are as ready as they'll ever be, across the board.
Push will come to shove, but on whose inititive?

Do not believe that we have the momentuem, 'cause we surely don't.

Unless the Son of Shah is on the money. Best he get alot, even if it's good money after bad, it is after all, only money.

5/06/2006 02:05:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

By Jupiter, habu--that's the ticket!

well, the meeting is over at the UN--the Monday vote has been postponed, due to "deadlock" over the text.

5/06/2006 02:07:00 PM  
Blogger blert said...

12:30 PM C4

The other defenses of the "true believers:

A. "We have found plenty of bianary shells, but we're keeping it secret from the public." Why?

ANSWER:

It’s impossible to disclose such a truth while these weapons are still in the possession of an enemy in the field. All aspects of such discoveries must remain hush-hush even though the administration would love to go public.

Overwhelming military need demands that politics take a back seat. More generally, this will ALWAYS be true. In a world war against unlawful combatants it is IMPOSSIBLE to publicize any NBC ordnance specifics. We’ve found the munitions, not the factories.

A single binary nerve gas round could kill thousands. The FBI and CIA have to be going nuts trying to keep this stuff out of America.

You seem to have lost any comprehension of the gravity of this problem. The nation is trying to stop mass murder on a 9/11 scale.

Proving up Saddam’s BC capability simply comes at too high a cost. Much in the manner of exposing ULTRA – are you mad?

5/06/2006 02:08:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_1 said...

since the Oval office was designed as a Freudian tribute to the male testcle, what will it be called when a dame gets in office? ***




*** still look'in for verses to "Rock'in 'round the Kaaba"

5/06/2006 02:09:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

EZ, the "Ovary Office"--

5/06/2006 02:13:00 PM  
Blogger blert said...

2:09 PM Habu_1

“since the Oval office was designed as a Freudian tribute to the male testcle, what will it be called when a dame gets in office? ***”

Fallopian Terminus

5/06/2006 02:16:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_1 said...

Alexis..
..sometimes, in fact most of the time, you can't do both ..the choice becomes a horrible nightmare for the people who have to make it. But if they know down the road it will save two,three or four times the number, well you protect your source to untimately stop the carnage.

5/06/2006 02:16:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

I don't get it, blert.
I'm not mad, either.

If we do not have the factories, if the dual use facilities were not the source, what of it?
Thet factories are where ever they are. If the bad guts have them, they know it.
If we said we found 5,000 active binary rounds, or not, will not effect control of the binary agent factory, where ever it may be.

To announce we can prove the factory exists would only make maintaining the War Effort possible.

Unless the Admin is goin' all in on the Son of Shah, the Bush's do appreciate old family ties.
Bush 41 was DCI when the Shah Sr was in charge, no?
The Sauds would give that move a big thumbs up.
Bitch slap ol' Jimma too.

5/06/2006 02:18:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_1 said...

...Chief Boobs Office... i think Ovary Office is a natural but what the hell will it do to the achetectural changes needed? My Gog they'll need mirrors to see one another at meetings

5/06/2006 02:20:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Churchill let Atlantic convoys fight it out of surprise wolf-pack attacks--attacks that Ultra decrypts had alerted him were likely. He had to protect the secret. He had a war-winner, didn't want to trade it for a battle-winner.

5/06/2006 02:21:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_1 said...

DR...because you give up to the enemy the knowledge that you have the knowledge ...ie you expose a source or a method or some piece or either.

5/06/2006 02:24:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_1 said...

most of the citizenry have no idea how tough it is to make some of the choices that HAVE to be made by the intlligence community..and the poor intel person gets only the nightmares and none of the atta boys/girls/dames/broads

5/06/2006 02:29:00 PM  
Blogger blert said...

DR

Here’s one factory: VX from Sudan

http://yarchive.net/mil/nerve_gas_sudan.html

I expect that we will find that Saddam was getting his binary agents from Chinese, Nork and Sudanese dual use chemical plants.

It was the quickest, cheapest way to go. Further, it’s totally deniable.

All that we have is loose chemical munitions that were expressly designed to look no different than standard base-bleed (extended range counter battery) rounds.

This last property was to permit binary rounds to be fired even under French observation. Never forget that the French Army supplied Saddam with his officer corps during 1981-1988.

BTW, the record shows that France and Germany supplied many dual use chemicals during this period. Ever trustworthy Saddam insisted only benign usage. Somehow, Iraq’s need for pesticides declined with the remission of the war.

5/06/2006 02:35:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

The last time I called a dame a broad I walked around with my ass between my shoulder blades for a coupla weeks.

5/06/2006 02:36:00 PM  
Blogger Pierre Legrand said...

Sorry, 2164th, but anyone who judges Richard Nixon "one of the greatest American presidents" isn't much of a judge of presidents or presidencies. I wanted to be gentle about that error. Exactly how can a President who brought forth such marvelous ideas like...here lets allow Jonah Goldberg to disassemble Nixon:

The truth is, Nixon was the last of the New Deal-era liberal presidents. He sponsored and signed the legislation creating the Environmental Protection Agency, the Water Quality Improvement Act and the Endangered Species Act. He oversaw the establishment of Occupational Safety and Health Administration. Nixon created the Philadelphia Plan, the springboard for racial quotas; pushed for Title IX (the women's "equality" law); and hired Leon Panetta (later Bill Clinton's chief of staff) as his director of the office of civil rights.

Nixon pushed aggressively for national health insurance that would cover 100 percent of the nation's poor children. He increased federal spending on health and education programs by more than 50 percent and massively boosted spending on the National Endowment for Humanities. He tried to increase welfare with his Family Assistance Plan and Child Development Act.


Jonah being quite the funny guy did a comparison between Bush and Nixon that wasn't terribly flattering to either.

5/06/2006 02:42:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Jeez, how can you leave out the Wage & Price Controls?

5/06/2006 02:45:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_1 said...

yeah broads, who can figger'in out

Freud went to his grave asking the question

"What do broads want"

ahhhh "What do women want"

i say a good washtub and washboard

5/06/2006 02:47:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Has your Woman Had her Licking?

5/06/2006 02:47:00 PM  
Blogger Pierre Legrand said...

Proving up Saddam’s BC capability simply comes at too high a cost. Much in the manner of exposing ULTRA – are you mad?

Which is another reason why the Administration should have driven the point home regarding Saddams extensive Terrorist connections.

5/06/2006 02:47:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_1 said...

lets's all calm down and turn on the Derby...mint jew-lip ..broads wit hats on.
OK PRIMER..WIN.PLACE,SHOW
TRIFECTA
TRIFECTA BOX
TRIFECTA WHEEL
PERFECTA (BOX AND WHEEL)

5/06/2006 02:54:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

""Lord have mercy! He's never had any problems before," said his mother, Jeranda Weir, who described him as a hardworking man who suffers from a speech impediment.
Weir had worked as an escort on a Manhattan helipad, but he lost the job several months ago, his mom said.

"He was a hardworking boy until he got laid off last year," she added. "We can't deal with this right now."

---
What's a Helipad Escort do?
If it's a cathouse, he must lick their pads, I guess.

5/06/2006 02:54:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

...my baby, i rotor a letter....

5/06/2006 03:02:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Rotor Rooter

5/06/2006 03:04:00 PM  
Blogger blert said...

Foot Loose Foot Louse

5/06/2006 03:09:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"a hardworking man who suffers from a speech impediment"
---
"Ah, aah, ah want you to be my partner."

5/06/2006 03:14:00 PM  
Blogger 2164th said...

Kyda Sylvester said...

“Sorry, 2164th, but anyone who judges Richard Nixon "one of the greatest American presidents" isn't much of a judge of presidents or presidencies.”

Thank you for your doctrinaire evaluation. It is usually pointless to debate someone that uses a fatuous declaration as an opening argument. For that reason I will not waste time and argue why Nixon was a great president in great detail. I will say that I can make a reasoned credible argument to support my statement and will take the risk that I may annoy you with a few points.

I could also make a very acceptable argument as to why JFK was a great president and get yours and most other heads nodding yes. The problem is that I would be lying because even though JFK appears on every list of Great US Presidents, he was not great and in many ways exceedingly flawed. His contemporary, Richard M. Nixon was also flawed, very unpopular with all his enemies and I am sure most of your friends. Nixon was a man of courage, decisiveness, a brilliant tactician, a great cold warrior, a man willing to put aside personal ambition for the greater good, in fact a man of rare abilities. He was a man left with an extraordinary mess caused by the Democrats, liberals and many people probably in your company. Richard M. Nixon was a man held in contempt of his enemies and that suits me just fine. Have a nice day.

5/06/2006 03:22:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

Larsen -

You missed the point. Which was not a crashed helicopter, but crowds of Shia cheering the death of the Brits and trying to get pieces. With British rescue forces having to whack at least 5 of our noble purple-fingered freedom-loving "friends". Habu-1's allusion to "a training accident stateside" would be accurate if mobs of Americans showed up at a US Army helo crash seeking to tear the bodies apart for souvenirs instead of what happened with our "liberated Shia friends"...

Bad news is lots of stuff happening while the US is bogged down in Iraq pissing away our wealth and military readiness for other threats. Many major Naval and AF programs are being gutted to fund 250 billion a year spent trying to deal with a low-tech force of 20,000 Islamoids in Iraq, 15,000 in Afghanistan.

Among the "lots of stuff happening" is the Coalition of the Willing has collapsed and will all be out of Iraq by the end of 2006 save for the Brits, and Straw is toast and Iraq may also make Blair toast, coupled with a Labour scandal. Latin America is going Castro's way. Russia is revanchist, and China is doing circles around us.

"Stay the Course"? Our tar baby?

Not encouraging is Shiite leadership saying the "Occupier" must depart by 2008, no basing rights - plus their signing a mutual defense Pact with Iran last spring - and US commanders saying the police and military is a 10 year reclaimation project, now that after 3 years, they are finally "organized and have a plan, on."

Now our biggest strategic goals are keeping the Gulf open despite our regular dissing of our Dubai, Qatari, and Saudi allies....and preventing Turkey from becoming even more radicalized and anti-American from our working against Turkey's interests in favor of other objectives...

Iraq? Let the Shia with help from the Kurds end the Sunni insurgency that has killed 2,000 and maimed 9,000 Americans. Letting our guys die to "save" factions from killing one another and resolving the mess by the killing we are prohibited from doing makes as much sense as Reagan saying "stay the course" in Lebanon after we realized that peacekeeping only made us targets of several forces seeking to exploit our firepower or kill us as we tried to salvage order from the Israeli invasion.

Iran? Even the UK said they would not be our allies if we do a "quick surgical strike" and foster the "liberation" of the "noble, freedom-loving, democracy-hungry Iranians".

Would Maximum Beloved War Leader Bush just go ahead and do it? On behalf of our "Special Friend"? Despite NATO and diplomacy saying "NO~"?

Unlikely. His "support base" would be a few Red State Congressman that hold Bush as God or at least hastening the Rapture, or the atypical but expected liberal Democrats in Congress from NYC, Miami, and wealthy California Districts who were wildly enthusiastic about invading Iraq.

Plus -Any nation in the ME that refused to sign or comply with NPT on WMD and starts a nuclear arms race is customarily awarded 5 billion dollars a year from the US taxpayer. We have not yet tried to give Iran 5 billion a year. Maybe they could be our "Special Friend", too.

5/06/2006 03:31:00 PM  
Blogger blert said...

Nixon's the only president to serve 6.5 years having been elected to 12.

Deathbed testimony establishes without a doubt that Joe bought 1960 from the mob in Chicago.

As Nixon aptly put it: " They stole it fair and square."

Most all of Nixon's troubles flowed as a consequence: press relations, victimosis and over-compensation.

5/06/2006 03:35:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

3:35 PM
NEVER Forgive an Anti-Communist!

5/06/2006 03:41:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

C4, yes. we are in the middle of a shitty war and shitty things are happening everywhere. I can't argue that. But we had to do something after 911, and if you would balance what is with what might have been, you know, had we done more Clinton, then your posts would be more accessible to me, anyway. You know what I mean, a laundry list reads better in "context". I'd hate to've seen what you'd've written in say 1942.

5/06/2006 03:42:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Bet on the Son of Shah, C4, the Bush's are goin' all in on the new Shah. Old family friend, has lived in the US, says he can git er done.

Internalize that Iranian problem, yeah, that's the ticket.
If the Mullahs were ousted, SCIRI could be moderated and we'd have no need to physically occuppy the Region.
The Son of Shah, on CNN & FOX, come late summer, early fall.

Daddy would be so proud.

5/06/2006 03:43:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Who wouldn't be?

5/06/2006 03:45:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

rat, if if if--you could be right, it's the key to the whole damn mess--all of it, everywhere. the winds of war would shift the other way.

5/06/2006 03:48:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Aq is a pissant gnat, it's the alternate reality being projected by point man Achmadinijade that is rallying the old Reds everywhere.

5/06/2006 03:51:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

Blert sounding like the "rigged Ohio voting machines blocked Monsieur Kerry from being Prez" Lefty whacko counterparts to Blert:
Explaining why his "vast quantities of bianary nerve gas shells discovered and used on US and Iraqis are being lied about by every Bushie to keep the truth from the US public that might turn and support the Iraq war or going in and eliminating Blert's "vast stockpiles in Syria:

It’s impossible to disclose such a truth while these weapons are still in the possession of an enemy in the field. All aspects of such discoveries must remain hush-hush even though the administration would love to go public.

Oh, I see!

Better to have the "Coalition of the Willing" collapse and take major global damage than admit our Causus Belli was true! Just another sign of the genius of Beloved Maximum War Leader...right up there with his Harriet Miers pick..

Overwhelming military need demands that politics take a back seat. More generally, this will ALWAYS be true. In a world war against unlawful combatants it is IMPOSSIBLE to publicize any NBC ordnance specifics. We’ve found the munitions, not the factories.

Ah hah! So the thousands of Islamoids found with suitcase nuclear bombs and driving tankers full of liquified nerve gas must never be revealed and all our government must lie about it!!!

Otherwise, we would have allies and support for Bush's war course and even invasion of Syria or Iran would skyrocket. And we can't have that!

A single binary nerve gas round could kill thousands. The FBI and CIA have to be going nuts trying to keep this stuff out of America.

And why haven't we learned of any attacks inside Iraq of thousands killed by insurgents using nerve gas? Oh - aside from the "hush hush"...

You seem to have lost any comprehension of the gravity of this problem.

I'd say it's more a case of you simply losing comprehension.

[Just because I found no snipe birds on my snipe hunt with a pillowcase only shows the snipe poultry farms are Ultra-Secret factories of the missing snipe we must find! "Blert"]

Uh huh...

5/06/2006 03:51:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

That would be a hell of a September Surprise for Mr Bush to pull out of his hat.

Cigars all around.

remember where you read it, first.

Yes Mr Watson, the Game is on, our reserve Players are just now entering the field.

Have you ever seen such a Peacock?

5/06/2006 03:51:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

(course he'd have to restart the enforcement that they stopped 2 years ago to git my vote for a third term)
As Bud says,
"They're tightening up the Border,"
But when they STOPPED all hearland enforcement, and started talkin Amnesty II the magnet was ENERGIZED!
Free Everything for the poor of the World.
Demean the proud Mexican Heritage here of the past by equating it with the Welfare Breeders, Gang Bangers, and Drug Smugglers of the present.
(I'll link of movie of GWB doin just that soon)
Like Bud's Dallar Fed Doll sez, 1970's wages for carpenters is just swell, and as Bud says, it's "cause of the Global Economy"?

5/06/2006 03:52:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"Dallas Fed Doll"

5/06/2006 03:53:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Sorry, not up for more economics, doug--have at it on your own today.

5/06/2006 04:01:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

having too much fun with the Peacock thought.

5/06/2006 04:03:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

All those homes imported from China, doug, by Wal-Mart.
Just drove the US builders right out of business.

But it sure has kept the prices down, those imports.
Home prices and construction costs have stagnated since the '70's, too?

buddy's economist lady was puzzled and could not figure out why there had been the wage stagflation, but KNEW it was not caused by immigrants.
That was just an unacceptable answer.
Racist, you know.

Clean toilets, that what this is Border Security issue is really all about, who has to clean a toilet.

5/06/2006 04:05:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

In which our Elite Teacher Gives us an American History Lesson
(who woulda known this wasn't Gringoland since Adam?)
---
---
Site's slow sometimes: Best to right click and download. It's only 3 megs, but VERY Romantic

5/06/2006 04:07:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

larsen - "But we had to do something after 911, and if you would balance what is with what might have been, you know, had we done more Clinton, then your posts would be more accessible to me, anyway. You know what I mean, a laundry list reads better in "context". I'd hate to've seen what you'd've written in say 1942."

I think it is more appopos to fit us in as the Germans. "If the center of enemy gravity is the Soviet Union, and it was ..how the hell did we bog a good part of our Army down in non-strategic battle outside Russia??" We had the Soviet Union in our grasp, then we diverted forces and tied down 20 divisions in the Med and Yugoslavia - 1/3rd of our forces - that would have made all the difference at Stalingrad and Kursk!"

Point being that Iraq was strategically botched and we are there only to salvage past mistakes and various reputations of America's Ruling Elite while other problems outside Iraq are ignored and worsen as problems for the next Administration.

We must fight and die to install an Iraqi Administration full of ingrates that hates us as infidels and are pro-Iranians...blow 250 billion a year...because...because...
"Well, they have puple fingers!!"

Better reasoning is in order, especially when commanders say it will take another 10 years to reform Iraq to the extent they "like us".

5/06/2006 04:08:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

'Rat,
Neither me nor my wife has ever paid someone to clean our toilet.
Should we pay extra taxes?

Same for the lawns, etc.
But in LA Basin, 100,000 are employed by patriotic Liberals and Conservatives alike.

For emergencies, retirement, extended families, and etc.
Good Old Uncle Sam steps in with FREE DOLLARS!
---
Such a Deal!

5/06/2006 04:10:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Buddy hates it when he's confronted with unpleasant realities.

Best git back to Happy Talk, 'Rat.
All's Well on the Southern Front!
Stay the Course!
---
Latest Label:
"Hysterical"
I guess VDH had a 2 year bout with "Hysteria" when he wrote that MEXIFORNIA Book.
---
Probly just Hormones.
---
...anyway, be thankful:
Beats xenophobe, racist, and etc!

5/06/2006 04:16:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

But C4, Baghdad *is* Moscow, in your analogy. besides, my point was that we had to do *something* about the mideast after 911.

Doug, Rat, don't blame the Dallas Fed report on me--I didn't write it. If you want to think it's baloney, go ahead, have at it. Call it "stupid".

5/06/2006 04:25:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

We read your stuff, do you ever read ours?

5/06/2006 04:29:00 PM  
Blogger 2164th said...

As a public service to help you enjoy your Saturday evening check this out. I sh*t you not.

"The weapon in question is complicated to master, and American soldiers and marines undergo many days of training to achieve the most basic competence with it. Moreover, the weapon in Mr. Zarqawi’s hands was an older variant, which makes its malfunctioning unsurprising. The veterans said Mr. Zarqawi, who had spent his years as a terrorist surrounded by simpler weapons of Soviet design, could hardly have been expected to know how to handle it."
http://www.dartblog.com/

5/06/2006 04:32:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

I did not say "stupid" buddy.

I said Govermental and Scholastic PC
Something you are usually one of the first to see.

Regardless of the merits, though, this Issue will not "go away".

Without a "September Surprise" the Republicans will lose the House, which historicly, only happens when the Senate is also lost.

Here's to Hope, Elections & Son of Shah.

5/06/2006 04:32:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Dallas Fed Baloney?

No matter how you slice it, folks are fed up.

5/06/2006 04:36:00 PM  
Blogger LizK said...

I agree with Starling David Hunter. The problem before the war was that the administration (and the Brit and Australian governments) was citing so many reasons for war--people kept saying, well, yesterday you said it was reason x and today it's reason y. So which is it? What's the real reason? It is not surprising that, when forced to choose, the administrations emphasized the most worrisome reason, i.e. WMD. Note that the coalition invasion was called Operation Iraqi Freedom. That suggests that in the view of at least some war planners, freeing Iraq from Saddam and his goons was the biggest reason. But who on the left or the extreme right was going to buy spending 100s of billions and betting one's whole political capital on FREEDOM?

5/06/2006 04:52:00 PM  
Blogger Arthur Dent said...

Why again is Andrew Sullivan EVER quoted? I cannot think of anything he has that makes me want to call and ask his opinion.

I can think of 50 mainstream people I would appreciate hearing from who I never do hear from.

My only guess, no insult intended or implied, is that it shines a light on prior connections.

5/06/2006 05:27:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

I've asked that question myself, Arthur, and I'm for Vouchers!
...must have "Widespread Support!"

5/06/2006 05:29:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

That "mainstream" comment's gonna cost you 10 hours of training, and some work w/"the community."

5/06/2006 05:31:00 PM  
Blogger blert said...

3:51 PM Cedarford ranted...

“ Blert sounding like the "rigged Ohio voting machines blocked Monsieur Kerry from being Prez" Lefty whacko counterparts to Blert:
Explaining why his "vast quantities of bianary nerve gas shells discovered and used on US and Iraqis are being lied about by every Bushie to keep the truth from the US public that might turn and support the Iraq war or going in and eliminating Blert's "vast stockpiles in Syria:”


This is a totally fabricated ‘quote’ aka falsehood. And next, a false choice:


Better to have the "Coalition of the Willing" collapse and take major global damage than admit our Causus Belli was true!..


“Ah hah! So the thousands of Islamoids found with suitcase nuclear bombs and driving tankers full of liquified nerve gas must never be revealed and all our government must lie about it!!!

Another fabricated quote or inference.

“Otherwise, we would have allies and support for Bush's war course and even invasion of Syria or Iran would skyrocket. And we can't have that!”

More pure rant.




“And why haven't we learned of any attacks inside Iraq of thousands killed by insurgents using nerve gas? Oh - aside from the "hush hush"...”

Either we’re doing something right – or their sappers are doing something wrong. Based on the record it appears that the unlawful combatants are screwing up: and I’m not going to educate them here.

And finally a totally fabricated ‘quote’ – this last takes the explosive C4 out of his straw man grow room and places him deep the company of loons and snarks. Pathetic:


[Just because I found no snipe birds on my snipe hunt with a pillowcase only shows the snipe poultry farms are Ultra-Secret factories of the missing snipe we must find! "Blert"]

5/06/2006 07:45:00 PM  
Blogger rufus said...

They said it was about WMD's, and everyone with a brain knew it was about Iraqi oil, Kuwaiti oil, Possible Nukes, leading to Saudi oil, Iranian oil, Qutari oil, leading to "Lots" and "Lots" of Nukes, leading to $500.00/bbl oil, leading to starving American and European children, leading to "Nuclear War," leading to ....

well, you get the picture.

Now, the children are tired, and whiney. Daddy's stuck with them. That's okay. "Mommy" Hillary will be here, soon. She'll kiss it, and make it ALL go away.

5/06/2006 08:07:00 PM  
Blogger rufus said...

Iraq the Model is saying that the New Government will be up and running next week.

We just cancelled the deployment of a Brigade to Iraq.

The Iraqi's are running more operations than we are.

We've won the War. The Insurgency is in shambles. A "Real" Government is taking over. We'll spend another year or so, training Iraqi's and drawing down troops.

If we have to hit Iran, we've got some great airbases. Next door. Oh, and 130,000 troops. The Straits of Hormuz and the Middle East oil is safe. We've "free'd" 50,000.000 people, discredited Al Queda, and turned the Middle East on it's head. Libya gave up it's nuke program, and the Syrians are out of Lebanon.

People in the ME are looking at a Democracy taking shape. Satellite TV, cell phones, internet, and 150 "Free" Newspapers, tens of TV stations, and hundreds of radio stations.

Women are voting, and running for office in Kuwait. Musharraf is walking the straight and narrow, and India is wanting to do business.

On and on. And what do I hear?

Whine, whine, whine. It's not perfect. Sheesh

5/06/2006 08:23:00 PM  
Blogger Eggplant said...

Rufus said...

"Iraq the Model is saying that the New Government will be up and running next week. We just cancelled the deployment of a Brigade to Iraq.... We've won the War. The Insurgency is in shambles.... And what do I hear? Whine, whine, whine. It's not perfect. Sheesh"

What you're hearing and reading is Goebbels style propaganda from the LLL/MSM, i.e. repeat the same old lie that we've "lost in Iraq" thousands of times until everyone is forced to believe it.

It's not about telling the truth or defeating the Islamic fascists. It's about getting back at Bushitler. To a moonbat, defeating Bushitler trumps all other considerations including personal survival.

If it were only the moonbats who got whacked by an Islamic nuke then I would be mostly indifferent (it'd be Darwinism at work). However, odds are, my family and I will be ones who get whacked. It'll do me precious little good for the moonbats to admit they were wrong after I've been turned into an incandescent radioactive gas.

5/06/2006 10:24:00 PM  
Blogger Eggplant said...

Desert rat said...

"Without a "September Surprise" the Republicans will lose the House, which historicly, only happens when the Senate is also lost."

If Bush thought he was beaten, he would not have replaced key administration members and reassigned Rove to overseeing the mid-term elections. One could argue that the Democrats have peaked too soon, i.e. they should have knocked Bush's popularity down to 36% in October rather than May. I would say that Bush/Rove providing a "September/October surprise" is a safe assumption.

Supposably Nancy Pelosi has made public statements about how she's going to run the House of Representatives after she takes over. What an imbecile!! Her only hope for success is if the Republican voters stay at home during the November election. However the stupid woman is doing her best to scare the Republican voters back into the voting booth. For the Democrats to succeed, they have to convince people that they will not do a worse job than the Republicans in running the country. I see no evidence at all to support this opinion.

5/06/2006 10:47:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

Blert, sorry. "vast hidden stockpiles of WMD" was still something that could be discussed back in 2003 without provoking howls of laughter, but not today.

Your "snipe hunt" analogy was just poking some more fun at you. I'm sorry if you thought I was seriously quoting you or are offended because no one has ever proved snipe hunting is futile, given abscence of snipe is not proof snipe don't exist - and exist in "vast secret quantities".

BUt your claim that thousands of binary rounds have been found but everyone on the American side that know proof positive of WMD has been found must be "hush-hush" is downright ludicrous.

It's just another nutty conspiracy - all our military and leadership is conspiring not to tell us that the major reason we went into Iraq is true after all - yeah, right.

Where did you get your source of this BS is the more relevant question.

5/06/2006 10:53:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Eggplant 10:47 PM
I hear Ms P is getting a Brain-Lift.
Don't count eggs until that's hatched!
(Think how smooth she'll be if she gets some of Ms Terraaaza's Botulinum BENEATH that furrowed Brow in addition to upon it.)
You ain't seen Nuthin Yet! tm Algore

5/06/2006 11:12:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

What if Akmeninut has Vast Secret Stockpiles of Snipe
w/BIRD FLU???

5/06/2006 11:15:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Little does C-4 know:

"Length: 9 inches
Stocky, short-legged, pointed-winged shorebird
*Explosive* takeoff when flushed, rapid zigzag flight
"

5/06/2006 11:21:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"There are 10 kinds of people in the world—those who understand binary, and those who don't."

5/06/2006 11:39:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

The neatest thing in Aristide's CNN Video was a woman holding a cloth banner and screaming at Rummy.
Some guy seated there got tired of it, and reached up and grabbed the banner.
The b.... wouldn't let go and just about got shook and pulled to the floor!
A true visceral pleasure to watch.
Then the Gendarmes intervened.

5/07/2006 01:27:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

For Arthur:
---
Jonah! How Dare You!
[John Podhoretz]
How on earth could Andrew Sullivan find the time actually to read Ramesh's book, what with all the torture going on in the world?

The weight of that inestimable horror rests heavily on Andrew's shoulders, don't you know that?

Not to mention he has sleep apnea! I demand you apologize to him immediately.
Oh — and resign.

5/07/2006 01:47:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

5/07/2006 06:02:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

I agree, blert, that the Dems may have peaked a bit soon, but then again maybe the Repub have not completely cratered, yet.

This little oiece, from RealClearPolitics tells the truth.

"... On immigration, this suggestion may reflect a shift in public opinion after the May 1 marches, away from the belief that the pro-illegals lobby had decisively altered public opinion, toward the realization that the marches may have created a powerful backlash.

Citing Arizona's new anti-smuggling law, the sheriff of Maricopa County (Phoenix) announced that a posse of a hundred deputies and volunteers would begin patrolling the desert. This appears to be an act of official frustration, not one of those cosmetic attempts to placate the right. The Minutemen, denounced as vigilantes by President Bush but greatly respected in the state, are now building a fence on private land along the Mexican border. They are going national too, with chapters popping up in Virginia and elsewhere.

The frustration level in Arizona is so high that a local prosecutor, Andrew Thomas of Maricopa County, organized a national immigration conference and gave a fiery speech on the chaos, crime and cost of the tide of illegals. Last spring, I managed to get lost in one of the rugged canyons of southeast Arizona, and stumbled on two camping areas for illegals, each with about as much debris as you might expect from an airliner crash.

Mercedes Maharis, who lives near that canyon, has just released a documentary on DVD, "Cochise County, USA: Cries From the Border." The eeriest footage is infrared photography of illegals, maybe a hundred or more, swarming across the border at night. The turning point for one woman came when she set up a tepee in her back yard and noticed one morning that a group of illegals was living in it. The withering remarks in the film are not aimed at the illegals, but at Washington for abandoning its constitutional duty to guard the border. ...

... Political scientist Samuel Huntington argues that this amounts to a deconstruction of American identity that has been "gradually created over three centuries." In his book "Mexifornia," Victor Davis Hanson says California is not quite Mexico, but not quite the United States either.

The political culture of Washington, focused on cheap labor and Latino votes, is nowhere near recognizing what is happening. ..."


John Leo is a contributing columnist for RealClearPolitics.

There is a huge backlash, poised to vote, out here. Those in Washington are either blind or willfully ignorant.

I'm shocked but I find myself with Mr Dean, secure the Border now, worry about the "guests" later.
Mr Bush, he represents the status que, which is no longer acceptable, nor Conservative.

5/07/2006 06:07:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

"... Beltway pundits who casually throw aside the concern of the conservative base on this issue make a mistake and underestimate voter intensity on the illegal immigration problem. For a conservative base already demoralized by a Republican-led Congress incapable of cutting spending and frustrated by a war that is either portrayed as floundering (or actually is floundering), abdication of responsibility on the illegal immigration mess may be the last straw that compels many conservatives to sit on their hands this November. ...

... So right now Republicans have managed to create a political environment on immigration that further demoralizes their base while at the same time angers the largest growing electoral demographic critical to a long-term GOP majority. Is it any wonder Senator Schumer implored Harry Reid to scuttle the Senate "compromise"? The last thing the Democrats want, from a political standpoint, is to resolve the immigration issue.

Even though Schumer and many Democrats don't want an immigration bill, Republicans should be happy the Senate compromise went down in flames. If something like the Senate bill were to become law it would be a disaster for Republicans because the conservative base will revolt if a Republican President and Congress attempts a rerun of the Simpson-Mazzoli amnesty of 20 years ago. When you strip it all down, that is essentially what the Senate compromise McCain and Kennedy were crowing about last week would be. ...

...So right now Republicans have managed to create a political environment on immigration that further demoralizes their base while at the same time angers the largest growing electoral demographic critical to a long-term GOP majority. Is it any wonder Senator Schumer implored Harry Reid to scuttle the Senate "compromise"? The last thing the Democrats want, from a political standpoint, is to resolve the immigration issue.

Even though Schumer and many Democrats don't want an immigration bill, Republicans should be happy the Senate compromise went down in flames. If something like the Senate bill were to become law it would be a disaster for Republicans because the conservative base will revolt if a Republican President and Congress attempts a rerun of the Simpson-Mazzoli amnesty of 20 years ago. When you strip it all down, that is essentially what the Senate compromise McCain and Kennedy were crowing about last week would be. ...

... - it needs to be made clear (particularly to the Hispanic community) that the problem is illegal immigration not legal immigration.

-the flow of illegal immigrants has to be stopped. This is not about hiring x thousand more border agents or throwing more money at the problem. First, this means building a fence and securing the border. And second, fines and prison for employers and business owners that hire illegals. Law enforcement needs to be focused at the border and then within the country on employers, not the workers. The fact that you will not stop the illegal flow 100% misses the point and ignores the 90%-99% you will stop.

-the number of legal immigration slots needs to dramatically be increased. (Again, it has to be emphasized over and over that the problem is with illegal immigration, not legal immigration.) ...

... The left is going to balk at a real fence and shutting down the border. But liberals who say they are for enforcement and securing the border are going to have a hard time opposing the only real way to secure the border. And the only way conservatives will stomach what is effectively a 2nd amnesty is if they know a fence will go up and the illegal flow will grind to a halt.

With the President's leadership a compromise along these lines is possible. However, right now Bush and the GOP Congress appear rudderless; hoping gerrymandered House districts and not quite enough Republican Senate seats in play will keep them in power. ..."


Senator Kyl, one of my favorites, is going to be coming home. If this situation is not remedied. gerrymandered Districts will not be enough to save the Senate.
The pundits have Mr Kyl safe, word from the street, don't count on that chicken being in the flock come January '07.

5/07/2006 06:28:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

the above quoted piece is Immigration Debate Is Killing GOP by John McIntyre.

5/07/2006 06:30:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

If one thinks back to Mr Newt's "takeover" of the House, it was not just those Dems that had been tainted by the House Check Kiting scandal that were defeated.

There was an across the board repudiation of the Democrats, based on feelings, not new facts or revelations, about the individual Democrats.
Their combined "Style" as it were.

Mr Bush's attempt at "style" & "triangulation" on the Border Security Issue will kill his Party, in the West.

The Democrats will seperate the Issues, Border Security and Immigration Policy. As those issues should be seperated. Mr Pederson is campaigning that way, Mr Dean already has shifted.

The Republicans will hold for "Comprehensive Reform" and have their hats handed to 'em, as they leave Washington DC, on their long drives home.

5/07/2006 06:40:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

"Mr Bush, he represents the status que, which is no longer acceptable, nor Conservative. "
---
The REALITY is he has created the New New Status Quo, many times worse than a decade ago, with a wink and a nod, a lie here, cessation of Heartland Enforcement there, and while DC and MSM true believers can't see it, Campesinos in Mexico sure can, and so can, increasingly "The American Public."
(minus some of our resident Govt. Statistically blinded members and Dogmatic True Believers, not to mention the Romantic Feelgooders, aka White Guilt Paralyzed Lemmings.)
---
Gov. Blasts Congress on Borders
By Peter Nicholas
Schwarzenegger says lawmakers and the White House are to blame for immigration protests.

5/07/2006 07:34:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

"Comprehensive Reform"
Says honest George:
Patriotic Americans Should Bend Over and get "Fooled" (fueled?) Again.
Mazzoli, Smazolli:
Shoot the Juice to me Bruce!

5/07/2006 07:38:00 AM  
Blogger woof111 said...

....If Bush thought he was beaten, he would not have replaced key administration members and reassigned Rove to overseeing the mid-term elections...

This is another data point that supports the thesis that for liberals history starts yesterday.


Jun 27, 1994


Headline: Clinton / White House Staff / Shake-Up
Abstract: (Studio: Tom Brokaw) Report introduced.
(White House: Andrea Mitchell) The shake-up in President Clinton's White House staff featured; details given behind the replacement of White House Chief of Staff Mack McLarty with OMB director Leon Panetta with his deputy Alice Rivlin moving up to head the OMB and White House counselor David Gergen going to the State Department. [CLINTON, PANETTA - comment on the changes.] The view in Bob Woodward's


American Notes
The Administration Doing the Cabinet Shuffle


Apr. 22, 1985
Donald Regan is a clean-desk man, and the new White House Chief of Staff brings the same cool efficiency to management. Largely at his urging, President Reagan last week consolidated his Cabinet councils, merging seven policymaking groups into two Cabinet-level agencies. Treasury Secretary James Baker will head one, advising the President on economic matters, while Attorney General Edwin Meese will be President Reagan's chief Cabinet adviser on domestic questions. Said the President of the change: "It will provide for added accountability and efficiency in formulating and implementing policy."

The new structure will simplify the lines of authority in the Cabinet. Under the old plan, there were separate policy councils for a wide variety of makeshift realms, and this fragmented approach tended to stall in the face of major decisions. One significant implication of the organizational change is that Meese's role will be larger than previously supposed. A Reaganaut of long standing, he will have the broad charter to supervise social policy that he enjoyed as one of President Reagan's original "troika" of White House aides.

One can imagine the headlines "Jefferson's reorganization of cabinet shows he is not control"..

5/07/2006 07:39:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Reality be damned, 'Rat,
Full Speed Astern!
Stay the Course!

5/07/2006 07:48:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

"Assturned" Patriotically to Accept
"Comprehensive Reform"

5/07/2006 07:49:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

doug,
cool thing, Arnie.
Remember how revered he was post Republican Convention. Gave the "best" speach. A true American, admend the Constitution, let Arnie run!

Those were the days.
Now he says
"..."I think that all of this comes down to one thing: The federal government has failed the people of America in a terrible way, in a disastrous way, when it comes to this immigration situation."

Schwarzenegger, who emigrated from Europe in 1968, called for better ways to police U.S. borders ...

...Speaking at a middle school here, Schwarzenegger said that "to have a border that is not secure is to me staggering."

He scolded Congress for leaving Washington last month for spring recess, after a proposed deal to revamp the nation's immigration laws collapsed.

"For them to go home for spring break and not really take care of it when they know this was boiling here in this country is also irresponsible," he said.

Schwarzenegger called for "putting the pressure on the federal government [to] let them know they're responsible." ...

...Dana Perino, a spokeswoman for the White House, said Friday that the Bush administration ... ..."We do acknowledge that we need to do more, and the president has been very clear that he is for a comprehensive immigration bill that will improve border security, improve interior enforcement and include a guest worker program." ..."

5/07/2006 07:51:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

"comprehensive immigration bill that will improve border security, improve interior enforcement and include a guest worker program"
---
More, MORE!, the hurt feels so good!
---
PS
That "Guest Worker" program is like a good Cigarette.

5/07/2006 07:57:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

And now Arthur knows Why Andy is so Entertaining to some!

5/07/2006 07:59:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

The Terminator speaks
"...The federal government has failed the people of America in a terrible way, in a disastrous way, when it comes to this immigration situation." ..."

Stands up to Uncle Teddy!

5/07/2006 08:00:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Those Yale elitests, keeping their secrets from the Skull & Bones days. It is typical of the likes of that JFKerry, to support a compassionate agenda, while the fish rots from the head.

5/07/2006 08:05:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Gives a whole new meaning to:
"Onward Christian Soldiers"
...GWB Acolytes, Ankles Grabbed, Advancing Backwards Toward the Precipice.
(precipice?)

5/07/2006 08:05:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

More like:
Toward the Totum of
"Comprehensive Reform."

5/07/2006 08:07:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

"Bushtail"
Animal Totem

5/07/2006 08:16:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

We all have power animals which can be accessed by meditation. Below are a list of animals and their symbology.
I'm feeling like part of the Ant Group, now.
(lemmings aren't listed)

5/07/2006 08:21:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

"We often unconsciously recognize the Power Animal affecting someone, and use terms which give away our unconscious recognition."
---
Like when Bush Gives us Social Security True Believers a Cuddly Teddy Bear to keep us safe at nite.
"More Guest Workers/Citizens/Voters!"

5/07/2006 08:25:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Now you're talkin' like Carlos did in the Tales of Power, where's the crow, now?

5/07/2006 08:29:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Russel?

5/07/2006 08:33:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Schwarzenegger said that "to have a border that is not secure is to me staggering."

5/07/2006 08:35:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

"Tails of Power"
The "American Public"
SUBMITS to,
"Comprehensive Reform"
...again.

5/07/2006 08:36:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Hate to bring up THAT Tail again.

5/07/2006 08:36:00 AM  
Blogger bobalharb said...

I don't see either donkeys or elephants listed in 'power animals'. What can that be telling us?

5/07/2006 08:38:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

but I'd bet he said it;

"to have a border that is not secure, is to me, staggering."

5/07/2006 08:38:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Everybody staggers a bit when they grab their ankles.
No Biggie.
(so to speak)

5/07/2006 08:38:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Or perhaps Mr Schwarzenegger said it like

"to have a border that is not secure is, to me, staggering."

5/07/2006 08:43:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Just so.

5/07/2006 08:46:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

For those skipping to the bitter end:
---
In which our Elite Teacher Gives us an American History Lesson
(who woulda known this wasn't Gringoland since Adam?)
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Site's slow sometimes: Best to right click and download. It's only 3 megs, but VERY Romantic

5/07/2006 08:50:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

How many takes would Arnie need?
'fore it was perfect?

"...The federal government has failed the people of America in a terrible way, in a disastrous way, when it comes to this immigration situation." ...

... "to have a border that is not secure is, to me, staggering."


No one understands America, quite like Arnie.

Box office reciepts tell the tale of Arnies ability to understand where people's heads are at and how not only to be ahead of, but create a curve, wholecloth.

5/07/2006 08:51:00 AM  
Blogger charlotte said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

5/07/2006 09:37:00 AM  
Blogger charlotte said...

Thanks for your 8:23 PM non-pessimistic assessment, Rufus. I have to laugh when the Right rails against the relentless negativity of the MSM and their agenda to pull down the Repubs, no matter the greater war, since we seem to be doing a pretty good job of it ourselves these days.

Yet another thread on the Iraq War, reportage and perception gets diverted to the gravest threat we face as a nation- illegal Mexicans and their amigo Bush. Some of us are beginning to realize that angry Repubs don't want to be the majority party, anymore, nor to follow through on our fight against Islamist terror and dangerous global re-alignments. They seem to want to retreat and build walls, polemicize and polarize, and certainly not settle for imperfect. For them, their principals trump logistical and political considerations, black and white is clearer than gray, and projection is truer than reality (Dubaian control of our ports! Mexican illegal invasion! Dems will secure us! Third Party is the answer!) When the Pelosi Dems take over in '06 and we get another President Clinton '08, the reactionary Repub wing will keep blaming Bush and enjoy being apoplectic over the ensuing disaster. Nothing will be their fault, of course, except for trusting this Prez in the first place.

Uncompromising righteousness and emotionalism that cloud perspective and priorities are going to smack down the Right and lose the long war more effectively than all the vapidity and venality of the Left. Imo.

C.

5/07/2006 09:48:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

no, blank, the answer is easy, it is to secure the border.
All other issues guest worker, etc would fade.

The President, is the one that is responsible, not those that are affected by this Asymetric Invasion or have the nerve to mention it.

The King is naked, rejoice in his Wardrobe

Mr Bush could end the Issue tommorrow with an Executive Order and a redeployment of troops, to defend US borders.

He chooses not to, as is within his power.
He has chosen his priorities, as regards what is important to secure America.

I think securing Arizona from foreign invasion more important than securing Baghdad for Mr Maliki, sorry if that upsets you.

15% of the people on the street, here, are "undocumented, uninsured & unlicensed but driving".

Not a condition for US to be living in, sorry if you think that's misguided, blank.

But the Mohammedans are so much yesterday's threat

Sorry, but my street come first, before the "Green Zone" of Baghdad

5/07/2006 09:54:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

The answer to Iraq and Iran lies, as it always has, in the Peacock Throne. Just ask Mr Carter

Reestablishment of that Kingdom would lead to stability and reality, personified.

Then the General President will, someday, maybe, defeat the aQ & Taliban.

5/07/2006 10:02:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Explain to me, blank, how turning over the ISF to the Generals from Mr al-Sadr's Mahdi Army or the Generals from the Badr Brigades, as per the "militia integration program" of Mr Maliki, will enhance "Peace & Security" of the Region?

I just do not see it.

Does Mr al-Sadr really need an armored brigade of T-72s?

5/07/2006 10:16:00 AM  
Blogger charlotte said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

5/07/2006 10:32:00 AM  

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