Monday, May 08, 2006

Myth making

Ernesto "Che" Guevara was one of the most famous media figures of the 1960s. A high-ranking Cuban official and confidante of Fidel Castro, Guevara was appointed head of a Cuban delegation to the UN in 1964 and in the process became a public celebrity.

He also appeared on the CBS Sunday news program Face the Nation and met with a wide gamut of people and groups including U.S. Senator Eugene McCarthy, several associates of Malcolm X, and Canadian radical Michelle Duclos.[21][22] On 17 December, he flew to Paris and embarked on a three-month international tour during which he visited the People's Republic of China, the United Arab Republic (Egypt), Algeria, Ghana, Guinea, Mali, Dahomey, Congo-Brazzaville and Tanzania, with stops in Ireland, Paris and Prague. In Algiers on February 24, 1965, he made what turned out to be his last public appearance on the international stage when he delivered a speech to the "Second Economic Seminar on Afro-Asian Solidarity" in which he declared, "There are no frontiers in this struggle to the death. We cannot remain indifferent in the face of what occurs in any part of the world. A victory for any country against imperialism is our victory, just as any country's defeat is our defeat."

About three years later he was dead. And though I searched long and hard for the particulars of Guevara's last stand, the best source documents available on the web are the debriefing of Felix Rodriguez, a CIA agent of Cuban extraction who was sent to Boliva to help track him down and the after-action debriefing of the 2nd Bolivian Ranger battalion by US Southern Command. A bare-bones synopsis of Che Guevara's military career in Bolivia can be found here. Basically, Guevara entered Bolivia in late 1966 and started up a platoon-sized guerilla group. The group went on to kill 30 Bolivian army personnel before being surrounded and wiped out together with it's leader in late 1967. Action against Guevara's guerilla unit was conducted entirely by Bolivians, with some training assistance but with no actual command or direct involvement by US personnel. As a feat of arms, Guevara's effort in Bolivia is remarkably undistinguished and there must be dozens of guerilla leaders alive in the world today with a better showing. Here's the timeline:

Fall, 1966: Che Guevara arrives in Bolivia some time between the second week of September and the first of November of 1966, according to different sources. He enters the country with forged Uruguayan passports to organise and lead a communist guerrilla movement. Che chooses Bolivia as the revolutionary base for various reasons. First, Bolivia is of lower priority than Caribbean Basin countries to US security interests and poses a less immediate threat. Second, Bolivia's social conditions and poverty are such that Bolivia is considered susceptible to revolutionary ideology. Finally, Bolivia shares a border with five other countries, which would allow the revolution to spread easily if the guerrillas are successful. Spring, 1967: From March to August of 1967, Che Guevara and his guerrilla band strike "pretty much at will" against the Bolivian armed forces, which totals about 20 000 men. The guerrillas lose only one man compared to 30 of the Bolivians.

June, 1967: Cuban-American CIA agent Félix Rodríguez receives a phone call from a CIA officer, Larry S, who proposes a special assignment for him in South America in which he will use his skills in unconventional warfare, counter-guerrilla operations and communications. The assignment is to assist the Bolivians in tracking down and capturing Che Guevara and his band. His partner will be "Eduardo González" and Rodríguez is to use the cover name "Félix Ramos Medina".

August 31, 1967: The Bolivian army scores its first victory against the guerrillas, wiping out one-third of Che's men. The guerrillas are forced to retreat and Che's health begins to deteriorate.

September 22, 1967: Guevara Arze, the Bolivian Foreign Minister, provides evidence to the Organisation of American States to prove that Che Guevara is indeed leading the guerrilla operations in Bolivia. Excerpts taken from captured documents, including comparisons of handwriting, fingerprints and photographs, suggests that the guerrillas are comprised of Cubans, Peruvians, Argentineans and Bolivians. The foreign minister's presentation draws a loud applause from the Bolivian audience, and he gives his assurance that "we're not going to let anybody steal our country away from us. Nobody, at any time."

September 24, 1967: Che and his men arrive, exhausted and sick, at Loma Larga, a ranch close to Alto Seco. All but one of the peasants flee upon their arrival.

September 26, 1967: The guerrillas move to the village of La Higuera and immediately notice that all the men are gone. The villagers have previously been warned that the guerrillas are in the area and they should send any information on them to Vallegrande. The remaining villagers tell the guerrillas that most of the people are at a celebration in a neighboring town called Jahue.

Guevara's arrival in La Higuera was the beginning of the end. Less than 2 weeks later, Che Guevara's group would be annihilated and he himself killed.

September 29, 1967: Colonel Zenteno is finally persuaded by Rodríguez, and he moves the 2nd Ranger battalion to Vallegrande. Rodríguez joins these 650 men who have been trained by US Special Forces Major "Pappy" Shelton.

October 7, 1967: The last entry in Che's diary is recorded exactly 11 months since the inauguration of the guerrilla movement. The guerrillas run into an old woman herding goats. They ask her if there are soldiers in the area but are unable to get any reliable information. Scared that she will report them, they pay her 50 pesos to keep quiet. In Che's diary it is noted that he has "little hope" that she will do so.

October 8, 1967: The troops receive information that there is a band of 17 guerrillas in the Churro Ravine. They enter the area and encounter a group of six to eight guerrillas, open fire, and kill two Cubans, "Antonio" and "Orturo". "Ramon" (Guevara) and "Willy" try to break out in the direction of the mortar section, where Guevara is wounded in the lower calf.

One surprise from reading Felix Rodriguez's debriefing is how much of his effort was devoted to keeping Bolivians from executing prisoners so that they could be questioned. One page 3 of his debriefing, Rodriguez describes how he learned of Guevara's intentions by saving the life of one-time guerilla Jose Castillo Chavez, who subsequently told him about Che's plans. It was also surprising to learn that Rodriguez attempted, though unsuccessfully, to having Bolivian orders to execute Che Guevara countermanded. Page 5 of Rodriguez's debriefing details the repeated steps he took to convince the Bolivians not to shoot Guevara. He failed, and the rest is history.

Commentary

Che Guevara is a testament to the power of a media symbol. As a purely military force he was negligible. As an organizing force and agitator of Bolivians he was an abject failure. But as an international Marxist symbol and poster-boy Che was eminently successful. Millions of people have worn his likeness on a T-shirt believing that he was a brilliant revolutionary and guerilla when in fact he was neither. But that would be missing the point. Guevara was the prototypical example of the triumph of image over reality. What did it matter if he wrote nothing of lasting ideological value? What did it matter if he was a comparative military failure? He was a surpassing public relations success and that made up for everything else. The power of Che lay not in his M2 carbine, which was shot out of his hands by the Bolivian Rangers. It lay in his beard, beret and his photogenic camera angles. Long before the word "spin" came into common usage Guevara was all spin -- a spin which will outlast the memory of those who defeated and slew him.

Though he died nearly forty years ago Che, from a media perspective, is thoroughly modern. He is so modern it would be possible to argue that both Osama Bin Laden and Abu Musab Zarqawi are simple extensions of his great archetype. Zarqawi, for example, is by almost any measure a complete military failure unless one counts massacring women and children as some kind of martial accomplishment. Zarqawi is even incapable of clearing a stoppage from a light machinegun he fires on video. But no matter, because it is the video not the machinegun which is the real weapon. It is the T-shirt graphic not the man depicted on the T-shirt which is important. News no longer describes war; it is war which inscribes news.

193 Comments:

Blogger 49erDweet said...

Excellent and perceptive analysis. Thanks one more time, W!

5/08/2006 06:44:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Senor Che
He did not so well in Africa, either.

He has become an icon, though, as well as a motivation for Mr Castro.

Mr Castro thought he had sent Che out of the spot light, out of the media glare. Instead he helped to create a legend.

As Mr Castro nears the end of his half century of Cuban domination, his own legend is no icon for the believers, his image not immortal.

What must Mr Castro do, to achieve immortality and outlive his challengers in perpetuity?

Ol' Che, he gained fame while losing small, by doing no damage to the Imperialists, at all.

What if Mr Castro could bring the Evil to it's knees? In one last Grand Attack, in concert with America's other enemies, for all the World to see.

Nah, he wouldn't want to do that, it could impoverish Cuba.

5/08/2006 07:16:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Marshall McLuhan would really dig Wretchard's post--

5/08/2006 07:16:00 AM  
Blogger Evan said...

The power of Che lay not in his M2 carbine, which was shot out of his hands by the Bolivian Rangers. It lay in his beard, beret and his photogenic camera angles.

And, sadly, in the appeal of his totalitarianism, which is resurgent in Latin America in general and Bolivia in particular just now.

5/08/2006 07:29:00 AM  
Blogger Cannoneer No. 4 said...

Turning this loser into a lefty icon is an example of a very successful psychological operation (PSYOP).

I don't have much respect for Che T-shirt wearers, but I may display politically incorrect intolerance towards the first Zarqawi T-shirt wearer I encounter.

5/08/2006 07:34:00 AM  
Blogger foreign devil said...

The people wearing Che T-shirts and other paraphenalia don't know anything about Che's ideology or only fuzzily so, and really don't care. They wear the image because it looks cool. Just like Paris students think they should riot, endlessly recreating every spring the Paris of 1969. They are so shallow they know nothing of the ideology or history and all the laborious research into his less than stellar career in Bolivia is lost on them, even if they knew. IT'S THE PICTURE THEY LIKE! They like that image of a 'revolutionary' with the beret, the shaggy mullet and the fierce look in the eye. Even better if a hint of a gun is in the picture as well. It's all about the 'romance' of being a revolutionary. The people that admire this stuff couldn't lay in a fetid swamp in Bolivia or anywhere else for days on end in order to creep up on an enemy. They couldn't stand the working conditions!

No...ideology won't explain what the attraction is for these shallow 'me generation' types. It's wanting to LOOK like Che that's important...the heck with what he was fighting for. Put your ideology and history of the revolution away...just tell me...where can I get one of those berets to go with my Palestinian-style checked kiffeyah?

5/08/2006 07:34:00 AM  
Blogger charlotte said...

And the beat goes on.

5/08/2006 07:43:00 AM  
Blogger snowonpine said...

The larger issue is the Left's use of propaganda generally to change the whole mental landscape and can anyone argue that they haven't been very successful on a whole range of issues--just their success in implanting the notion of "political correctness" alone has made a huge difference in how poeple express themselves and think.

Take a look at Marxist theoretician Antonio Gramsci's playbook on how to take over a society by using propaganda to subvert its culture and ideology at http://www.freerepublic.com/
forum/a3a4c610569be.htm

It seems to me that his strategies have been very successfully implemented.

5/08/2006 07:49:00 AM  
Blogger Doug Santo said...

"Myth making"

Excellent post!

Doug Santo
Pasadena, CA

5/08/2006 07:54:00 AM  
Blogger John B said...

Cannoneer No. 4

Re: Che t-shirt wearers. I have a lot of respect for them - at least of this kind:

Che T-Shirt

5/08/2006 07:56:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

mr arafat seems to fit the mold too!

5/08/2006 07:57:00 AM  
Blogger John B said...

Oops - link didn't work - try this:

http://www.robfisher.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=search&cat=0&pos=0

5/08/2006 08:02:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Wonder what this message is?

5/08/2006 08:18:00 AM  
Blogger bobalharb said...

In defense of Che one might note that he paid the old lady 50 pesos to keep quiet although ' having little hope that she would do so'. A fatal mistake. Another might have bought her silence with a 5 peso bullet. A good book on the sad subject of revolution in general is "Utopia and Revolution" by Melvin J. Lasky, which takes an in depth look at the language, memes,metaphors,history and hopes and disappointments of this sad subject. Make it a last option. Revolution, I mean, not the book. I can't abide people here in the very liberal and all so free USA flapping lips with revolutionary rhetoric. A dangerous and totally irresponsible use of freedom and lanquage. We've got a workable constitution, let's keep that.

5/08/2006 08:26:00 AM  
Blogger bobalharb said...

The last, best Che t-shirt I've seen was worn by a good looking blond gal with a circle and slash over Che's face--also modelled a t-shirt saying 'hippies smell'.

5/08/2006 08:35:00 AM  
Blogger 2164th said...

Iconic figures evolve out of a human need. Voltaire described the phenomenon best when he said," "Let us accept that God exists. But what if he didn't? Well, we would have to invent him." We have a recent example of the irrationality of an icon in the recent Muhammed cartoons. We have seen it with the burning of American flags. The important issue is to look at the underlying need. It could be that Che just makes a cool( or is Kewl?)t-shirt.

5/08/2006 08:42:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

2164,
travel South, you'll learn soon enough, it's not 'cause the shirt's "chill".

Niether is it the purity of the ideology

Nor a thirst for blood

But a need for Social Justice that demands to be quenched.

The need is there, make no mistake.

Ol' Che, he represents the "little guy" in their
"rage against the machine"

The only face on more T-shirts then Che, is Osama.
Another Enemy of an Imperialist Amerika

Fancy that.

5/08/2006 09:00:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Yep, put on your Che/Osama tee, join the big demonstration downtown, then grab a snack at McDonalds, before picking up some supplies at Walmart and heading home.
It's a weird world.

5/08/2006 09:13:00 AM  
Blogger Tano said...

Something missing here. Wretch seems to be claiming that the myth of Che is built upon the Bolivian campaign - which would, of course, mean that it was built on nothing at all.

But the reputation and myth of Che arose from his role in the Cuban revolution, which was, in purely military or revolutionary terms, a complete success.

There are many many legitimate reasons to bash Che and the myth, but pretending that he was a failure by focusing only on the last campaign, seems pretty silly.

5/08/2006 09:16:00 AM  
Blogger CP said...

Wretchard,

You are very right when you say, "Guevara was the prototypical example of the triumph of image over reality." He has been so idealized, people have forgotten what a brutal legacy he left.

Back in March, Chris Matthews made a remark about Che t-shirts being "cute" and that Guevara was essentially some sort of quaint historical figure. I posted on this at my blog, along with a little history lesson for Mr. Matthews about Che's penchant for killing.

You can check it out - here - if you're interested.

5/08/2006 09:22:00 AM  
Blogger Christopher Taylor said...

What concerns me most is that people who ought to know better, like Carlos Santana, wear his image proudly. The image of Che has showed up over and over on illegal immigrant demonstrators in the last month or so, on posters and on shirts.

That picture is a great, iconic image, but the man was trash, and people ought to think before acting.

5/08/2006 09:43:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

San Fran Poster Girl - Separated at Birth
- Ingraham

5/08/2006 09:56:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Does Jorge consume 'rooms?

5/08/2006 09:58:00 AM  
Blogger Jrod said...

I wonder what Sr. Che would think if he knew his image was sold for profit in such a capitalistic fashion?

And I believe Marx himself was not an advocate of violent revolution. Rather, he was willing to wait for capitalism to collapse on its own, at which time Marxism would light the way.

I saw a good knock-off of the "che" t-shirt not too long ago. It was a picture of VP, and it said "Che-ney" underneath. Not sure what message the wearer was trying to convey, but I thought the shirt was clever at least.

5/08/2006 09:59:00 AM  
Blogger Jamie Irons said...

To me what is most despicable about Che is something he shares with another "revolutionary" of his ilk, Ayman al-Zawahiri, namely, that he started out as a physician and became an ideological monster and killer.


Tom,

...the Cuban revolution, which was, in purely military or revolutionary terms, a complete success.


The Cuban Revolution was (in whatever terms one might choose) a success??!!!

Jamie Irons

5/08/2006 10:01:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

'Rat 9:00 AM,
I thought they HAVE Social Justice and that is why we engineer our polices so we become more like them.

5/08/2006 10:02:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Jamie's just jealous about a Dr more famous than he is.

5/08/2006 10:05:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

No, no mi amigo, doug

We allow all the economic and social refugees from latin american an escape route from misery, if their legs can carry them.
All boats from Cuba are stopped, or at least at valient attempt is made by the US Coast Guard.

The injustice south of the frontier is real, but the
Stability of Corruption
is, it's been decided, a more vital US interest than Border Security.

Which is really kinda funny, from a historical perspective, this "reConquest" is nothing at all like the Mexican-American War nor the "Banana Wars" that followed.
This "reConquest" is so much more Asymetric, internalized & cultural.

As VDH says
"Mexifornia"

In another twenty years it'll be...
Amexico
amigo

5/08/2006 10:15:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

or perhaps
Americo

5/08/2006 10:17:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Texico

You can trust your car
to the man who wears the star

that big RED Texico star

5/08/2006 10:21:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Migration, followed by Revolution.

That is how Mexico lost Texas.

Circles & Cycles
The Tide has already turned
The Revolution is inevitable
the Outcome is not.

5/08/2006 10:25:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

El Presidente Whor'e.

5/08/2006 10:27:00 AM  
Blogger bobalharb said...

We will be--are being--filibustered. The gringos that migrated to old Mejico--Texas--weren't they know as filibusterers? Filibuster--take part in a military affair in a foreign country. We are sliding to being on the receiving end. Build a wall. Very small gate.

5/08/2006 10:41:00 AM  
Blogger KP said...

Desert Rat looks at the corruption in many South American countries, no argument, and uses that to justify the popularity of Che. That would make sense if what Che proposed worked but it doesn't. "Rage Against the Machine" is accurate in describing the normal emotional reaction to corruption but it doesn't justify endorsing a political system that sets up a stronger and more corrupt "Machine" that doesn't allow rage to be expressed, let alone acted on. Prinitive man "raged" against the sky when natural dissasters struck. The pain and devastation of a hurricane is real. But waving a stick at the sky is not a rational response. Che has become a very popular stick. It may feel good but it makes things worse.

5/08/2006 10:42:00 AM  
Blogger bobalharb said...

New Amexitexifornia

5/08/2006 10:44:00 AM  
Blogger Joshua said...

Slight threadjack: Lee Harris at TCS Daily recently wrote a piece on why socialism is making a comeback in Latin America long after being putatively discredited elsewhere. He blames the same thing that made Che an enduring icon - the power of revolutionary myth.

5/08/2006 11:24:00 AM  
Blogger bobalharb said...

"Hurrah for revolution! Let the cannon shoot--The beggar upon horseback lashes the beggar on foot.--Hurrah for revolution! Cannon once again--The beggars have changed places but the lash goes on." William Butler Yeats

5/08/2006 11:31:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

I'm looking forward to it, myself. I figure Texas will run the place. Get it straightened out an' all. Massachusetts & DC will be tickled pink running a Reagan/Bush-free USA, and Texicalico's southern border--just a short tactical hop from the Canal--will be an ideal jump-off to conquistador all of South America, which we will force to become Pentacostal.

5/08/2006 11:33:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

!No Mas Kerry! !No Mas Teddy! ?Qué podía ser mejor?

5/08/2006 11:38:00 AM  
Blogger Mike H. said...

Buddy, do Pentacostals make little old ladies crawl on their knees for three miles? If not, it won't work.

5/08/2006 11:56:00 AM  
Blogger charlotte said...

What the commie press doesn't want us to see: typical illegal immigrant
poultry plucker.

C.

5/08/2006 12:02:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

LOL, Mike--them little ole ladies wouldn't have it any other way. Here's how it'll be: Dallas will be our Nueva York, Phoenix will be nuestra Chicago, Los Angeles sera, uh, Los Angeles--y San Franceesco, mmm, you gringos puedes guardar.

5/08/2006 12:07:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

11:24
AM Now we need books on why the USSR is resurgent, the South Koreans love North Korea, and why America gave itself away.
(we already know the answer to the last:
Clean Toilets!)

5/08/2006 12:07:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Buenos dias, senora, whee are only heer solamente to cleen los tocadores!

5/08/2006 12:24:00 PM  
Blogger charlotte said...

¡Flush Bush!

5/08/2006 12:28:00 PM  
Blogger charlotte said...

I know you're really here to steal our daughters and boost sales of The Motorcycle Diaries.

5/08/2006 12:33:00 PM  
Blogger Starling David Hunter said...

Jrod said..."I wonder what Sr. Che would think if he knew his image was sold for profit in such a capitalistic fashion?"

I think he would want a piece of the action. Communist Chic, Capitalist Geek

5/08/2006 12:53:00 PM  
Blogger Alexis said...

Remember Comrade Ogilvy!

5/08/2006 01:07:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Revolution in Prison Voting Outcomes?
---
This is an interesting Soros funded study that claims the GOP has used Prisons in Gerrymandering Schemes in NY. Link to short Times editorial on matter.
---
Would be a Hell of a turned worm if/when Prisoners get the vote, the advantage reverses to the Democrat side.
---
Good grist for M. Simon on how we nurture criminals w/drug laws.
Vastly disproportionate Black and Latino populations than whites.
---
DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO DISCRIMINATE BETWEEN Google's W's and V's?

5/08/2006 01:11:00 PM  
Blogger Alexis said...

Maybe what we need are T-shirts with a parody of Warhol's Che Guevara, and the word emblazoned "OGILVY".

Or...

COMRADE OGILVY
REVOLUTIONARY HERO

Or imagine the following banner...

LONG LIVE COMRADE OGILVY!
LONG LIVE THE REVOLUTION!


Now, isn't it fun to live in Oceania?

5/08/2006 01:15:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Kamahameha Lives!

5/08/2006 01:28:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

--great post, SDH--the Gates visit to Hanoi needs a stronger word than "irony." Don't know what that would be, tho.

5/08/2006 02:08:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Not the visit, the *reception* (i should've said).

5/08/2006 02:11:00 PM  
Blogger Red River said...

I just finished Bowden's "Guests of the Ayotollah." which paints Khomeini in much the same light. he was just a figurehead whose stern visage and words embodied a symbol.


The same can be said for Chavez whose Coup failed and whose attention span and intellect can only lead him down the road to failure.

5/08/2006 02:26:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

See more commie-symbol fashion ("fascion"?), ht SDHunter's link:

...consider Tim Vincent, the New York correspondent for NBC's entertainment newsmagazine, ''Access Hollywood." Twice in the last few weeks, Vincent has introduced stories about upcoming movies while sporting an open jacket over a bright red T-shirt -- on which, clearly outlined in gold, was a large red star and a hammer-and-sickle: the international emblems of totalitarian communism.

This is, of course, why cultures that plan to "survive" have "schools" that teach "history".

5/08/2006 02:37:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

(ht artsandlettersdaily.com)

Stalin himself cracked [this joke]...about a visit from a Georgian delegation: They come, they talk to Stalin, and then they go, heading off down the Kremlin's corridors. Stalin starts looking for his pipe. He can't find it. He calls in Beria, the dreaded head of his secret police. "Go after the delegation, and find out which one took my pipe," he says. Beria scuttles off down the corridor. Five minutes later Stalin finds his pipe under a pile of papers. He calls Beria—"Look, I've found my pipe." "It's too late," Beria says, "half the delegation admitted they took your pipe, and the other half died during questioning."

5/08/2006 02:53:00 PM  
Blogger foreign devil said...

In the end, Che didn't look as slim as the iconic image used on the T-shirts. Few who know about his involvement in the Cuban revolution, from where his legend really stems, know also that he and Fidel parted on bad terms. He's never spoken of at Fidel's rallies, but the moonbats determined to carry on the myth so they can be in the 'movie too' can't be persuaded, even with the truth. If the image didn't exist, they'd have to create one out of lesser material, say .....Britney Spears?

5/08/2006 03:17:00 PM  
Blogger foreign devil said...

Both Madonna and before her, Patty Hearst, have co-opted the iconic image of Che (Hearst even named herself "Tania" in the SLA as a tribute to Che, Tania being his now dead ex-girlfriend (don't ask)). The image of Che has been a very successful marketing tool and has been used most recently by Madonna on one of her latest albums. Here's a synopsis of how it is used:

http://www.xplanazine.com/archives/2003/04/madonna_in_che.php

Not every image becomes a symbol, such as the Che image. But once it does, it can sell anything from a crappy ideology to T-Shirts and berets. Everyone including 'Chutch' wants to be Che. They don't really want to BE Che, asthmatic and out of favor with Fidel. They just want to look like him...to look cool, like the image. I just think Madonna using it to sell albums is really cynical but that's what she does.

5/08/2006 03:43:00 PM  
Blogger TheOctillion said...

what about our current che?

5/08/2006 03:45:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

kp
The power of myth often trumps reality.

Click thru and take the time to read buddy's "wierd" link @9:13am.

It is remarkabley accurate, from my perspective.

blank
That poultry plucker, circa 1908

Believe he rode into Douglas, shot up the town, caused Black Jack and the boys to ride south, almost to Mexico City.

Never did catch that poultry plucker, he was one lucky .....

5/08/2006 03:52:00 PM  
Blogger charlotte said...

Pershing was one lucky distant relative of mine, Mom's side.

5/08/2006 03:59:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Sucker?

5/08/2006 04:16:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

I'm ready to defend that
"Jose' Can you See Song"
thingy w/my life!

5/08/2006 04:18:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Blank, didja ever hear Pershing stories about "Boilerplate"? His robot soldier, which was captured by Villa, saved his life, then was recaptured by Pershing? Wot a strange bit of history, that.

Anything to sell papers, probably, today's yellow journalism was well on its downward trajectory even then, hey.

5/08/2006 04:20:00 PM  
Blogger Spag-oz said...

Perhaps T shirts with Abu Musab Zarqawi moosh may be a big hit on the Arab street, but I would be surprised if they became popular in the West.


Both he and Bin Loader's association with death & destruction on a savage and large scale may not have the same appeal as a "Robin Hood /Zorro" type as Che's admirers portray him.

5/08/2006 04:27:00 PM  
Blogger KP said...

Desert rat:
You'll notice that when the conservative promises of the eighties and nineties did not pan out the people of those countries had the option to 'throw the bums out" so to speak. When leftist governments don't deliver on their revolutionary promises the people get to.... have oliver Stone tell them that they don't really want elections, freedom of speech, freedom of association, ect, ect. Or delivery of the promises that were never delivered. Myth often triumphs over reality. The sad fact is when people who know better promote the myth even when they know it's a lie.

5/08/2006 04:48:00 PM  
Blogger 2164th said...

Billy the Kid, Doc Holliday, Bonnie and Clyde, Al Capone, DP Cooper (remember him) are all American icons that were criminals, killers, con men, thieves and scoundrels. They have all been elevated to respectable t-shirt status, posters, and bar themes. In England kids celebrate the English version of Timothy McVeigh, Guy Fawkes who tried unsuccessfully to blow up the Houses of Parliament. Imagine future generations celebrating of American children the hijackers of flight 93? It is really a non issue.

5/08/2006 04:49:00 PM  
Blogger 2164th said...

(Correction, I should read before I fire away.) Imagine future generations of American children celebrating the hijackers of flight 93? It is really a non issue.

5/08/2006 04:52:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

Che? Observation is exactly right, his power was imagery, not combat feats. Which is why the war of ideas and prevailing in the war to have media on your side matters far more than "high-tech wonder weapons".

And we haven't even named the enemy responsible for 9/11 yet. Better luck to the next President.

You can support or be against Iraq, but one thing going in there definitely, did was derail the war of ideas that was being seriously considered from late 2001 to early 2002. It became all about Iraq. Not radical Islam. And America lost all it's allies and popular support overseas save for its "Special Friend".

5/08/2006 04:53:00 PM  
Blogger 2164th said...

It seems that the EU is ahead of the curve on clamping down on illegal immigration and being very very un-PC.

Only educated aliens need apply in Europe
By Elizabeth Bryant
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
May 8, 2006

PARIS -- European governments, facing an immigration debate much like that in the United States, are pulling in the welcome mat, especially for low-skilled, illegal aliens from Africa and other developing regions.
Increasingly, governments are introducing immigration tests and other devices to screen out all but the brightest and most qualified in the face of rising anti-immigration sentiments -- despite having an aging population that leaves many European countries in need of new workers to bankroll their welfare states.
"There is a general trend toward regulation and restricting immigration and asylum seekers in particular," said Daniele Joly, a specialist on immigration issues at the University of Warwick in England. "In appearance at least, the door is closed to immigration. And the discourse of politicians is very hostile to immigration."
France's National Assembly last week began debating legislation that would seek to screen out unskilled immigrants while making it harder for illegal aliens to gain residency and for immigrants' families to settle in France.

5/08/2006 04:58:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

The people that Mr Morales represents, in Bolivia, have never before been well represented in La Paz.

The Gas fields in the south are really worlds away from the Cocca fields of the north.

There could well be a Civil War in Bolivia, there often has been.

Tough place, in La Paz the airport is at about 10,000 ft, the wreck of a transport plane still resting secure in it's mountainside crash site, visible on approach.
Or so it was in '81.

5/08/2006 04:59:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

2164th,
I'm an educated alien.
Space Cadet Doug reporting for citizenship.
---
I want My Galloway T!

5/08/2006 05:21:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

2164th,
I've been saying for some time the Euros are ahead of our deep-denying true believers here:
They'll still be poking fun of France when our kids are in the poorhouse.
But W and Bud will be secure in their Ranchos, protected by hired help.

5/08/2006 05:26:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

GWB's Rancho, of Course.
Yale Land Grant, I'm told.

5/08/2006 05:27:00 PM  
Blogger Wolfen said...

Desert Rat makes some reference to this, but I wonder if anyone knows more of the allegation that Che was becoming too popular in Cuba, so one or both of the Castro brothers shipped him out to Bolivia and engineered his death down there.

5/08/2006 05:28:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Stupid Frenchmen!
Don't they know Grammar School Dropouts become Rocket Scientists paying for the Welfare of 27 other families?
Bill Gates was a Drop-Out, ya know.

5/08/2006 05:30:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Like buddy said, doug.

It's a Texican conspiracy to rule the Hemisphere.

Those Texicans, they're tired of flyin' other folks's flags.
They're really goin' for #7, but kinda quiet like.

Como Larado y Nuevo Larado,
it's real quiet down there.

5/08/2006 05:32:00 PM  
Blogger Annoy Mouse said...

Che', the infamous killer of woman and children?

"That's right, I've killed just about anything that walks or crawls one time or another."

Che' played Trotsky to Castro's Stalin.

I always was liked the Che with mouse ears shirt but the best line is:

"Communism killed a hundred million people and all I got was this lousy shirt."

5/08/2006 05:33:00 PM  
Blogger Annoy Mouse said...

T

5/08/2006 05:34:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Can't the Commies get them to Fly Old Glory just a little longer?
Wouldn't be prudent pissing people off until it's over fer sher.
Maybe they're already sure it's in the bag?

5/08/2006 05:35:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

We'll let Tennessee in, since they sent Davy Crockett over't th' Alamo. The rest o you white eyes can just freeze in the dark while we be making whoopee at the hacienda. Doug, you can follow the great Captain Cook into the cookpot.

5/08/2006 05:38:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Sonia is my Safe Haven.

5/08/2006 05:40:00 PM  
Blogger Annoy Mouse said...

Che' is real popular in Mexico as are the Palestinians rock throwers. Its an underdog thing Im sure, though the state controlled media is extremely nationalistic. When you are screwing a 100 million people out of a future it helps to keep the little peoples ire focused on the impossible to defeat boghey-man.

If the US media was as nationalistic as Mexico's we'd be considered fascists with good cause.

5/08/2006 05:40:00 PM  
Blogger bobalharb said...

We need that BoilerPlate guy on the border now, and 10,000 of his clones, ICE being unable to handle the job.

5/08/2006 05:44:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"impossible to defeat boghey-man"
---
?
Things seem on track so far.
Demographics my Boy, suicidal welfare states and Demographics.

5/08/2006 05:45:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

We're gonna secede from the Union, re-start the Old Confederacy, then secede from *that* a time or two, until we can level "Six Flags" off at an even dozen. Or, "una docena regular" as we say.

5/08/2006 05:45:00 PM  
Blogger charlotte said...

Buddy,

Blank can't find the security controls on Typepad, much less get to the bottom of that Boilerplate story. Looks like an historical confirmation of aliens, weird space ones, apparently tolerated by a traitorous President Wilson and his military brass.

I'm so ashamed.

C.

5/08/2006 05:46:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Thousands of Boilerplates would be almost as good for the economy as millions of uneducated, unassimilated peasants.
---
Bad for Big Health Care, tho.
Ditto NEA, and etc.

5/08/2006 05:48:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

In State Rates for Lube Jobs for Undocumented Boilerplates!

5/08/2006 05:51:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Boilerplate's first battle was San Juan Hill, about a decade before he led blackjack over the border after Villa. Here he is with a very sad, morose-looking T. Roosevelt.

5/08/2006 05:52:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

I REEALY HATE OVER WHITENED TEETH!

5/08/2006 05:54:00 PM  
Blogger bobalharb said...

I see there is talk he may have gone AWOL in WWI, though, so if he were cloned up from the old designs and was put on the border, he might 'turn, and become terrific.'

5/08/2006 05:56:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Blank, at the bottom of the Boilerplate story is a grate irony.

5/08/2006 05:56:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

wolfen,
In August, 'Time' magazine publishes a cover story on Guevara, calling him "Castro's brain". "It is he who is most responsible for driving Cuba sharply left, away from the US that he despises and into a volunteered alliance with Russia," the magazine states. ...

...1960 is also the year in which fashion photographer Alberto Diaz Gutierrez takes the most famous of all the images of Guevara. Titled 'The Heroic Guerrilla', the photograph will become a symbol throughout the world of a revolutionary ideal. ...

...On 23 February 1961, he is appointed minister of industry in the Cuban Government, stepping down from his position as president of the National Bank. In the industry portfolio, Guevara continues his advocacy of centralised economic planning. He fixes prices for staples, reduces rents, and places controls on the accumulation of private capital. Industrial output is increased, imports are reduced and the tax burden is shifted to upper and middle income earners.

In July, he publicly criticises Castro for overfunding the armed forces when the money could better spent on industrial production. ...

... 1963, In December Guevara address the United Nations (UN) General Assembly, stating that armed struggle is the only sure path to socialism. At home however, his policies contribute to the decline of the Cuban economy and begin to fall out of favour.

1964 - Tensions within the Cuban Government over Guevara's economic policies continue and are heightened by his enthusiasm for carrying the revolution beyond Cuba into other parts of Latin America and to Africa. ...


..."Our every action is a battle cry against imperialism, and a battle hymn for the people's unity against the great enemy of mankind: the United States of America," ..."

Just what did Osama say?

Thought I'd heard that before.

Che had written Fidel a "private" Farewell letter, Mr Castro read it at a Rally, ol' Che, a vain man, would not return, publicly, to Cuba after the publication of the letter.

5/08/2006 06:02:00 PM  
Blogger sam said...

What It Will Take to Win:

The movie "United 93" comes at an opportune moment in this fifth year of the war on terrorism. Those who see the movie cannot fail to be deeply moved by the intelligence, initiative, and courage of the ordinary-extraordinary Americans on board.

But after the spectacle, the hard slog. In Afghanistan, the Taliban has returned in strength to the rural south as America prepares to hand over responsibility for the area to NATO forces.

What it will Take

5/08/2006 06:04:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Everybody's complaining about
"Not Naming the Enemy."
Maybe 'cause Everybody IS the Enemy?

5/08/2006 06:13:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Sonia: "Oh, I LIKE doug, but I think he needs more salt."

5/08/2006 06:18:00 PM  
Blogger charlotte said...

"Pancho Villa is the only foreign power since 1812 to attack the United States and get away with it."

A grater irony will be if Osama gets shot in a quarrel over shekels or poppy credits and takes Pancho's honor.

C.

5/08/2006 06:19:00 PM  
Blogger charlotte said...

Or are you saying the Messicans jest might best the Mooslims in bringing us down?

C.

5/08/2006 06:26:00 PM  
Blogger trish said...

"the Taliban has returned in strength to the rural south as America prepares to hand over responsibility for the area to NATO forces."

- sam

Really bad timing, that. Will it end in disaster? Probably not. But it'll be a bitch for the NATO guys in the meantime.

5/08/2006 06:35:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

"Meskins or Mooslims?"
C wants to know,

"Which will it be, that brings us low?"

She asks with a smile,
all the while,

measuring for burqua and sombrero.

5/08/2006 06:37:00 PM  
Blogger trish said...

An investment counselor that I like coined the phrase "Muddle Through Economy."

I'll be damned if what don't have is a Muddle Through War.

5/08/2006 06:51:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Trish, the KSA gov't has a program going now that is specifically charged with refuting the arguments of the Wahhab radicals. Sure, it may be a dodge, but CNBC reported it straight-up today. The karzai gov't doesn't seem to be in great strain, and the vast amount of Sunni petrodollars--even despite the Ports Deal--is still flowing into the global economy thru the USA--in Dollars. Their oil minister announced a few days ago a crash program to amp production 1.5 mm bpd by the end of 06. If Afghanistan looks shaky to us, imagine how it must look to the Taliban. Also, we've been making some strong political/military/commercial deals with Kazakstan on the Caspian. Nato IOW will have lotsa friends in the neighborhood. We may never until the end of time stop the odd bomb ambush, alas.

5/08/2006 06:59:00 PM  
Blogger Voltimand said...

W's comment on the "spin" that created Che Guevara. Doesn't his standard icon look familliar? I don't mean the face, but the "iconicism" of it?

Reference: James Dean, Marilyn Monroe, two people who were also mediocrities at their chosen profession, but almost by that very fact (that real professional achievement didn't loom enough to get in the way) became perfect cult objects to be turned into simplified poster images. Andy Warhol's "versions" of Marilyn in fact tell the whole story. All the Marilyns that there are, are there: each an exact replica of the others, except for the different color combos.

Che Guevara is also like James Dean--an object of sentimental nostalgia for a simpler time when people who look like these icons really existed in all their unchallenging simplicity and one-dimensionality.

There was never "Che Guevara," just as there was--almost--no Marilyn Monroe. As for James Dean, who remembers that of the three films he made, the last one was something called "Giant"?

Che sentimentalizes revolution as only middle-class liberals who have never looked the business end of a rifle in the face can sentimentalize it.

5/08/2006 07:03:00 PM  
Blogger trish said...

"If Afghanistan looks shaky to us, imagine how it must look to the Taliban."

True, buddy.

5/08/2006 07:06:00 PM  
Blogger trish said...

NATO gets to play the magnet (what Rat called, incorrectly, the "live bait"). I feel for 'em. But there's nothing for it.

5/08/2006 07:08:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

It's mighty cold math, alright, Trish--take small casualties now, to keep the place open, or take a bad gamble on WWII-level casualties later, to reopen it.

A crashing economy would likely get the country real war-like in a hurry.

5/08/2006 07:20:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

You call them a magnet, trish, as if the Enemy were an object, waiting to be drawn in by the "pull".
I'd submit that the Nato troops or our own that, move in light vechicles in unsecure areas do so more as bait then as magnets.

It is the smell of blood, not physics, that brings the animals to the bait.

5/08/2006 07:23:00 PM  
Blogger trangbang68 said...

Excellent Post,Wretchard.Another leftist fraud bites the dust.
At least Che took up the battle and died with his boots on.
What about our own sixties leftist frauds like Bernadine Dohrn and Billy Ayers and the Weathertrash.They came in from their pseudo revolution to become tenured professors singing songs to themselves while beguiling dumb undergrads with their Marxist tripe?
I like the poster of Ward Churchill in his Che gear with beret and carbine.What a piece of work.
I saw "United Flight 93"last night.It was moving,but seemed sort of incomplete.The most moving scene was somebody's daughter calling home to say goodbye.
Greenglass,the director, showed the hijackers to be the souless monsters they were,with only the leader possessing a touch of humanity.I would have enjoyed the movie more if the beatdown of the hijackers was more graphic.By that point in the movie,I was looking for vengeance.Still am,I think.

5/08/2006 07:27:00 PM  
Blogger trish said...

"It is the smell of blood, not physics, that brings the animals to the bait."

How very, very true, Rat. But baiting is intentional. That's my quibble.

5/08/2006 07:28:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Back when the US fought Wars,
with RoE designed to win the War
we called it
"Movement to Contact"
now in Iraq, it's
"Movement to Casualties"

5/08/2006 07:31:00 PM  
Blogger trish said...

Bring back "back when", Rat.

And good luck.

5/08/2006 07:43:00 PM  
Blogger sam said...

I was watching an ANZAC Day special program on TV the other day. The Australian soldiers they were interviewing were all saying that at the beginning of the Vietnam War they were performing operations with US troops. Under US command. They kept saying how nervous they were whenever they went out with the Americans because the American tactic was to make alot of noise and establish a high profile presence so as to draw the enemy in then take them out. While the Australian tactic was the exact opposite. They would establish a small base then go out on silent, stealthy recon missions hunting down the enemy. Rather than deliberately drawing them in. The Australian soldiers were saying how relieved they felt when they were finally allowed to establish their own base, perform their own operations, and fall under Australian command. I think that was in '68 if I recall the TV program correctly.

5/08/2006 07:44:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

The US presence in Iraq is no accident,
trish.

It is, if nothing else, Intentional

5/08/2006 07:44:00 PM  
Blogger trish said...

"It is, if nothing else, Intentional"

No shit.

5/08/2006 07:53:00 PM  
Blogger trish said...

But let's see how THAT goes, shall we?

5/08/2006 07:55:00 PM  
Blogger sam said...

This is about the only thing I could find on Afghanistan troop levels dated 12/21/5:

The Pentagon said yesterday that U.S. troop levels in Afghanistan would be reduced by about 3,500 next spring, thanks to increased NATO forces and a growing Afghan army.

US Troops

5/08/2006 07:59:00 PM  
Blogger Marcus Aurelius said...

Guwapo na siya e!

Hehehe, perhaps its been pointed out, his survivors are trying to stop the graven use of his image. I want to get one of those shirts with his face and the Mickey Mouse ears, even better is the shirt in similar pose with Ronald Reagan and the slogan "Viva la Reagan Revolution".

5/08/2006 08:37:00 PM  
Blogger charlotte said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

5/08/2006 08:43:00 PM  
Blogger charlotte said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

5/08/2006 08:47:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Doctor! Doctor!
Is there a Doctor in the House?
That's no Doctor, you Feuhl,
that's a Meuhth!
---
---
Princea.. of the House

5/08/2006 08:49:00 PM  
Blogger charlotte said...

About "Meskins or Mooslims"


Buddy, when it comes to a verse
you know I'm far from adverse
but I fear my query improperly inveighs

while you answered too well
that, no matter, we're doomed to h*ll,
we still missed it-- the Enquirer says to watch for Elohims and Greys.

Am thinking a shiny pewter abaya, kinda tight, might be the ticket.

C.

5/08/2006 08:53:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Trish and 'Rat caused blank to Blank out TWICE!
(blankety blank blank?)

5/08/2006 08:53:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

blank out that last post of mine:
blank's back.
Sorry, Trish, 'Rat.

5/08/2006 08:54:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"The most moving scene was somebody's daughter calling home to say goodbye."
---
The calls from her friend to Husband Ted Olsen were a factor in the Turbocharging of Coulter's cold Fury.

5/08/2006 08:59:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

6:18 PM Just depends on where she starts nibblin.

5/08/2006 09:07:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

I think Mrs. Olsen was in the one that hit the Pentagon, Doug. IIRC.

5/08/2006 09:14:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Correctamundo.
I guess Ted was almost w/in Earshot, certainly must have seen smoke.
Unbelievably heart rending.
Like Tony,
no, not like Tony: I may never see it.
But I'll never forget.

5/08/2006 09:18:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

I still think Johna and the Boys wussed out, but then Coulter's response made a return impossible.
Then the LA Times gave her a token trial.

5/08/2006 09:24:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Jonah

5/08/2006 09:27:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

" Free Lunchistan "

Immigration Then & Now [John Derbyshire]

Jonah: The two you've mentioned are the two BIG differences:

(1) Then—immigration from afar. Now—Immigration from next door.

(2) Then—no welfare state. Now—-USA=FreeLunchistan.

The history of immigration into the USA can be briefly encapsulated thus: 1776-1846—very little. 1846-1924—First Great Wave. 1924-1965—very little. 1965 on—Second Great Wave.

Only in that post-1965 wave has the welfare state been a factor.

5/08/2006 09:33:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Ramesh on Sullivan:
"As I’ve said many times now, what I call “the party of death” has influence in both parties but more influence among the Democrats. I have now done a score of talk-radio interviews, and 80 percent of the hosts have grasped this immediately and it has taken about 30 seconds to convey it to the others. It helps that many of the hosts have either read the book or read a lot of it (I’ve been pleasantly surprised in this regard).
They have higher standards than some bloggers.
"
---
Meanwhile, Kos wrote for the Post this weekend!

5/08/2006 09:38:00 PM  
Blogger trish said...

A good 7:20, buddy.

5/08/2006 09:41:00 PM  
Blogger trish said...

But you better have a good fucking reason.

5/08/2006 09:45:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

a terrible choice, isn't it. Say they have the bomb, but haven't yet used it. Go after it or not? If not, they use it, or not. Go after it, history will decide they would not have used it, so you're evil. Don't go after it, and they do use it, then again you're evil. The only outcome of the three that lets you out of the conumdrum is, you don't go after it, and they don't use it. So, how much do you bet on this?

5/08/2006 09:56:00 PM  
Blogger trish said...

"a terrible choice, isn't it."

Not for you, buddy.

5/08/2006 10:02:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

But that is true every where, buddy.
Pakistan's dangerous, today.
Iran may be as well.
Russian weapons, who really knows?

Is it a Slam Dunk?

Who's to tell?
Mr Goss?

Iran once begun, a War we'd have to win,
the US has not done that in sixty years.

5/08/2006 10:05:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Thank Gawd for that, the Guilt would be too much to take!

5/08/2006 10:09:00 PM  
Blogger trish said...

Don't go after it.

I'll buy that, buddy.

5/08/2006 10:09:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

I remember discussions here where it made sense to some, including the host, to hold fire in many and various situations:

Something about since we are SO much more powerful than anyone, we have the luxury of doing that.
Never made sense to me:

I always look at it as if it's MY son, and that crap just don't add up.
Specially given that 60 year interval.
...and counting.

5/08/2006 10:13:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Son of Shah
This is the ticket
Shah of Iran's Heir Plans Overthrow of Regime

"...The best gift that you can give the current regime is, in fact, to attack it. Why? Because, one, it will immediately consolidate the nation, two, it will neutralize all elements of the military and paramilitary forces who have a role to play in the options that I will present later and they will be forced into a position of defense. So they are out of the equation.

Three, it will stir this entire regional emotion, once again, against the West, while we are trying to get help from the very same West to promote a democratic ideal.

Fourth, if it’s a race against time, as in the sense, “Will this regime become nuclear first or will the Iranian people achieve democracy?” there’s no way you’re going to win the race by doing so. You may prolong the inevitable armament of Iran, but you will certainly push back the democratic cause for many years, if not for good.

And, ultimately, I don’t know if it’s going to be effective. We’re not talking about Iraq. We’re talking about a country with a multitude of installations, some of which you happen to know about and many of which we still don’t know about. Many of these entities are hidden under civilian areas, the actual stockpiling. ...

... The whole regime, in its entirety, is hostile and antagonistic to what we understand in the free world as being our definition of human rights and individual freedoms. This regime is dedicated to implement a viewpoint which is the most extreme interpretation of religion and God’s law on Earth, anywhere around the globe, starting with itself, the region and beyond. If tomorrow they can do it in Washington, they will do it. Or anywhere else. They don’t see eye to eye with you. This is a regime that is dedicated to that. ... "


Return of the Peacock

It'd piss off Che's Commandante

5/08/2006 10:14:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Who in their right mind would want to be president, anyway? What a monstrous coin flip is sizing up.

5/08/2006 10:16:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Wouldn't bother Rummy a bit, I'll bet.
But then, we wouldn't be where we are now.

5/08/2006 10:22:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

"... but you will certainly push back the democratic cause for many years, if not for good. ..."

The Democracy movement, is it really at the core of the Bush Doctrine?

Mr Bush said it was, we've stayed in Iraq to guarentee democratic success.

To bomb Iran is to defeat US Goals,
according to the Son of Shah.

You'd think he'd know.

5/08/2006 10:24:00 PM  
Blogger trish said...

"Who in their right mind would want to be president, anyway?"

Yeah.

5/08/2006 10:27:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"if not for good. ..."
---
Hard to not imagine the Iraqi Shia would not have been more receptive if we'd ignored Powell's Tears of Pity and driven into Baghdad.

5/08/2006 10:28:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

What's the worst that can happen, if we just stand down? Just tell Iran to go the hell on ahead and do whatever they feel like, just treat 'em like we treat any ordinary country?

5/08/2006 10:29:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Would not have been hard to leave out about 3 nots there.
Sorry.

5/08/2006 10:30:00 PM  
Blogger trish said...

What else is happening, buddy? We don't see it. We don't hear about it.

All we can do, really, is wait and see.

That's war.

5/08/2006 10:35:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

It's really just about tomorrow, not yesterday.

If the tupperware men are not in the field.

If the Son of Shah needs some tupperware, we best make sure he gets it

5/08/2006 10:37:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Didja hear about the guy with the wooden eye? He asks this girl if she'd like to dance, and she says "Would I, would I!" Guy glares at her and says "Big Nose, Big Nose!"

5/08/2006 10:38:00 PM  
Blogger trish said...

Leave it be for while, hmm?

It's not going anywhere. And it's not helping us.

5/08/2006 10:40:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Flat Faced Flat Head!

5/08/2006 10:41:00 PM  
Blogger bobalharb said...

I think Son of Shah's chances are slight and none. He might even get bumped off soon. Lots of activity,letter from Iranian Pres, Goss goes, Jack Straw goes. Perez says Iran can be wiped off map too. Seems like something is going to give soon. Can't see Bush backing down. Buy iodine tablets.

5/08/2006 10:41:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

I'm more receptive:
I just say I'll keep an eye out for ya.

5/08/2006 10:41:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

yep--suits me. late hour, and no topic more opaque. Past midnite out here in the badlands, nite all.

5/08/2006 10:47:00 PM  
Blogger trish said...

Rat,

Cash in tupperware...

I wouldn't trust you to be in charge of anything. At all.

You've been out of the game for so damn long.

As has almost everyone here.

Think it's your strong suit?

Think again.

5/08/2006 10:47:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Gasoline futures, if your right bob.
That and real gasoline, as well.
If you need any in your life.

The gas lines of the past, will be as express lanes.

Easier to protect and fund the future King. Insurrection with CAS capability, re: Afghanistan 2.0.

If the intel is good, insert the Rangers and sieze the items, in concert with the Insurrectionists, for PR.

Government change in Iran is the Goal.
Have to something or someone to replace the Mullahs, or repeat Iraqi errors.

5/08/2006 10:52:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

bobalharb, add to that today was the Security Council's scheduled meeting to release the statement on the Brit/France initiative. Postponed 'til "later in the week". Bolton is driving hard for that chapter 7 lingo. Something's gonna give this week, insofar as Perm 5 'stance'. Oil backed way down this morning, then crept back up to close off about half a buck, just under 70.

5/08/2006 10:53:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Trish, remember, we're just commenting on a blog--we're not the Security Council or the Joint Chiefs.
\;-)

5/08/2006 10:57:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Perhaps that's so, trish.

I've always found that cash is king,
but you are right, I'm kinda old fashion.

What ever the Army of One can do, to alleviate the Iranian nuclear challenge without excessive losses or committments of troops would be optimum.

If there is some new technique, that beats cash or gold in the motivation of Revolution, hope we have at it.

Love to see some success.

5/08/2006 10:59:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

rat is right about gasoline lines--I go back to what I said that I think Trish took wrong--but it's true, Americans are sour as hell right now and could get pissed off royally in any number of directions. business is a red-headed step child until nobody got any.

5/08/2006 11:07:00 PM  
Blogger allen said...

It was about 1970, if I recall, that "Life" or "Look" ran the sad story of comrade Che's untimely demise, with some good pictures.

I have yet to see a T-shirt with the comrade's scrawny, unkempt, pale, bullet riddled corpse as the theme. Way too bad, because death does tend to reduce the ego to a manageable level.

5/08/2006 11:15:00 PM  
Blogger sam said...

The Prison of the Present:

So, of this present war, I think our war-torn forefathers would say to us that both messy Afghanistan and Iraq are better places without their dictators even if they never will resemble Carmel or Austin.

They would add that it is not unusual to be confronted with new crises even after such apparently easy victories. And they would shrug that however scary Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's Iran now appears, it poses nothing new or insurmountable to a confident and strong United States that has dealt with far more serious enemies in the past with its accustomed wisdom and resolve.

The Prison

5/08/2006 11:25:00 PM  
Blogger trish said...

Thanks, buddy.

I don't want another war.

It's that simple.

5/08/2006 11:28:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"then crept back up to close off about half a buck, just under 70"
---
If it goes under 67, ol' Akmednotsonuts will just say something to excite the Global Media (again) and correct things.
Doesn't take a brain surgeon to manipulate them brains, being so tiny and predictable, and all.

5/08/2006 11:34:00 PM  
Blogger trish said...

I. DON'T. WANT. ANOTHER. WAR.

You ought to be working like hell to avoid it, you jackasses.

Or shall you run headlong for it?

Christ.

5/08/2006 11:38:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

I'll settle for just one more war at present:
AC-130's on the border.

5/08/2006 11:43:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"There was a time around the turn of the 20th century when New York City was awash in, yes, Jewish gangsters and street thugs. In his book Low Life, Luc Sante details the ways in which my city's slums were breeding grounds for criminal activity that mirrored some of the horrors of the 70s and 80s — except for the fact that guns were far more expensive and so the fighting went on with shivs rather than bullets.
The difference is not that immigrants broke the law less, but that nobody at the time was making apologies or coming up with excuses for immoral and criminal behavior, which is, of course, the story of our time."
-J Pod
Appologies, Hell:
REWARDS!
(not for their heads)

5/08/2006 11:47:00 PM  
Blogger Cutler said...

Good post.

For a more successful guerilla leader, see Jonas Savimbi of the Angolan UNITA.

The flaw in his military image was that he mostly fought against Communists, rather than with them.

5/08/2006 11:57:00 PM  
Blogger trish said...

Thanks, Doug.

5/08/2006 11:58:00 PM  
Blogger Cutler said...

I went as 'Che' to our 'used to be cool' costume party a few weeks ago for what it is worth...and got attacked by one of the South American students for my trouble. :P

5/08/2006 11:59:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Cutler,
Check out my 1:11 PM,
I guess no one else did.
Amazing the many facets of corruption in our political system.
---
---
Never realized it is a REPUBLICAN Senate in NY State,(!) but that link explains how it's done.

5/09/2006 12:07:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

That other Revolution:
Liberty, Equality, Fratricide

5/09/2006 12:17:00 AM  
Blogger Cutler said...

"Cutler,
Check out my 1:11 PM,
I guess no one else did.
Amazing the many facets of corruption in our political system."


In retrospect, it is always difficult for me to imagine how naive I was a few years prior - and I suspect in a few years I'll feel the same about myself now. My views towards how our system works, how politicians work, is certainly one of those topics that causes me embarrassment.

On the positive side, however, it wasn't for no reason that Churchill called democracy the worst kind of government, except for all the others. The leadership is often irrational and corrupted, and it has always been. It will need to get a lot, lot worse to ever rival the Reconstruction Era South, or the the battles between the Populists and Democrats at the turn of the century.

Point being, that it has always been very bad, and yet we've somehow muddled through, to use the term from earlier in the thread. Dumb luck, perhaps, but maybe evidence that although in the micro it seems like we're going backwards, in the macro it may be a slightly different picture...Long run is what matters.

Of course, not intended to promote a happy-go lucky 'everything will all turn out well in the end,' but today's problems always seem much more awful precisely because they are here now, whereas the past problems are often already forgotten, and their corrections already normalized and taken for granted.

American blacks, for example, are now voting - even if they are voting stupidly. On the whole that's an improvement...even if our representatives want to make their collective vote even more stupid by adding convicts to it...

5/09/2006 12:28:00 AM  
Blogger sam said...

The Agency Problem:

The CIA is broken. It has been for years.

There is too much anti-Bush leaking and not enough creative thinking. There are too many bureaucrats and not enough risk-takers.

The Agency

5/09/2006 01:18:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Cutler,
Thanks for the reply.
My main fear concerns the fact that never before have so many been able to vote for free "government money," and lately, the politicians have been willing to provide even more than has been asked.
GWB has been anything but a fiscal Conservative, and Congress is worse.
My 9:33 PM relates the same change from the past wrt immigration.
For a Decade I was hoping Rush would finally see that difference:
Now he has.
Before he would relate stories that his late, great, Grandfather
(was still working at 100!) told him about all the previous fears and panics about immigration that did not prove to be true over time.

But that was before the Welfare State, and as Jonah points out, was not primarily from across the border to land once occupied by the invaders.

Even the great Pacific Ocean is not enough to stop the CorporateCorruption/Socialist Welfare state magnet for indigent immigrants now, however, as we provide free services and preferential treatment.
Very sad:
I cannot respect GWB when he shows no respect for our Heritage, his oath, the Constitution, the responsibilities of his office, the voters who elected him, and the majority of Americans.

5/09/2006 01:21:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

As Cuba Plans Offshore Wells, Some Want U.S. to Follow Suit
By MICHAEL JANOFSKY
The U.S. bans drilling for oil and gas in coastal waters, but nearby, Cuba is letting China and other countries do so.
Map: Offshore Drilling Near Cuba
---
Our National Collective IQ must now rate in the high hundreds:
Negative numbers of course.

5/09/2006 01:34:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Buddy will have an optimistic rational for why GWB and Jeb banned drilling to make sure we would not drain any of Castro's Chicom Oil.
---
Sure wish I could be infallible too!

5/09/2006 01:37:00 AM  
Blogger 2164th said...

AN ICON IN EGYPT AND BIG TROUBLE AHEAD

Last Updated: Tuesday, 9 May 2006, 07:02 GMT 08:02 UK

Egyptians look to Islam for answers
By Heba Saleh
BBC News, Cairo


"Sculptures are part and parcel of Egypt's ancient heritage
A religious ruling condemning the display of statues has angered Egyptian liberals and intellectuals who fear it could encourage religious zealots to attack the country's pharaonic heritage.

The ruling was issued by the Mufti, the most senior religious scholar in Egypt.

Islam has always been wary of representations of the human figure.

Anything which could even remotely suggest idolatry is frowned upon.

But sculpture in Egypt is as old as the pharaohs."

The icons of Egypt are Egypt to the entire world, but no longer to radical Islam. There is no democratic compromise possible with the Islamists. There is no answer that will satisy the democrats and the Islamists.The time for the Islamic world to control this is rapidly coming to an end.

5/09/2006 03:08:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Here's 2 more Robespierre links from before by Bud: (who is (ht A&L) Buddy?)
If You'd seen his Green Eyes

Another Link

We are not now attuned to principle or conviction, but to the trivia of politics and the politics of trivia.
This is why we cannot understand the Islamic world, or the conviction of its militants, their rage for purity, their willingness to die.
What they have, the heirs to the liberal tradition have let slip away;
we’re ironical, comfortable, self-absorbed and fatally smug.

We think justice has been done; good enough justice, anyway – and we hope that charity will fill the gaps.
Robespierre had no holy book, but he had a militant faith, not in a Christian god, but in a good revolutionary god who had made men equal.
Liberty, Equality, Fratricide

5/09/2006 03:11:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

It's the RoP, 2164th.
The Buddas,
The Afghan Weather Records,
Now the Pharaoh-Rocks,
All Highly Offensive to the most high-minded humans in history.
A real barrel of laughs, these guys.

5/09/2006 03:20:00 AM  
Blogger 2164th said...

Doug,

Thanks for pointing it out to me. One paragraph jumped out at me and it again is an old story.

"Robespierre was born in 1758 in the town of Arras. His father was a feckless lawyer; his mother, the daughter of a brewer, died in childbirth when Robespierre was six. A few months after her death, the father deserted his four young children. Robespierre and his brother went to live with their maternal grandparents. At 11, not an unusual age in those days, Robespierre won a scholarship to the University of Paris. After ten years there, he emerged with a law degree, returned to Arras, and started to practice law."

It is the recipe common to many radicalists, it sounds like Muhammad Atta. How many of theses people are imbedded in the West?

5/09/2006 03:29:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...

Mr. John Podhoretz has an article up this morning the New York Post On-line Edition, asking, “Why sinking polls now?” He goes on to highlight, presumably, his top three possibilities; conspicuously absent is immigration.

Speaking to immigration, Mr. Podhoretz writes, “[H]e (President Bush) had the same immigration plan in 2004…” It is possible that I failed to understand “political speak” or just missed the announcement of amnesty etc. I will have to do better, as will millions of other conservatives; we owed Mr. Bush the full measure of our outrage, timely given.

Once more, a major voice for neo-meow-conservatism (Mr. Podhoretz) has spoken to the issue of immigration without the qualifier “ILLEGAL.” I would remind him that most Americans most certainly favor lawful immigration; what we detest is the invasion of our country by “ILLEGAL” aliens.

Mr. Podhoretz may now be added to the list of the manipulatists, including Senate Majority Leader (el Tigre) Frist and President “lonesome Jorge” Bush. Shame on them.

http://www.nypost.com/
postopinion/opedcolumnists/
68170.htm

5/09/2006 03:39:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...

Mr. and Mrs. America, this just in – “Study links guns, aggression in men”, imagine that.

Since the use of firearms at Crecy in 1346, the question of aggression and guns has been the cause of endless speculation. Now, psychologists at Knox College in Galesburg, Illinois have proven the association. Another milestone in science has been reached; we can all be proud (and cheap at half the price).

Although admittedly anecdotal, my personal experience supports the cutting edge research of the fellows at Galesburg. Yes, men are aggressive when handling firearms; they are even more so when firing them (that is why all range-masters are either Prussians or young Israeli women); and men become downright homicidal when shooting at one another. I, for one, will rest easier knowing now that my worst fears are not solely the result of projection.

One unfortunate outcome of the study: I will never be able to again view Tabasco sauce as merely a condiment. Oh, well, science marches on.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/269482_gun09.html

5/09/2006 04:42:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/
national/269482_gun09.html

Guns and psychos, op.cit.

5/09/2006 04:43:00 AM  
Blogger 2164th said...

Can anyone remember why Andrew Sullivan was invited to the party? This is his latest annoyance. As a tribute to military TO's:

This URL Intentionally left Blank.

My Problem with Christianism
A believer spells out the difference between faith and a political agenda
By ANDREW SULLIVAN

5/09/2006 05:22:00 AM  
Blogger trish said...

Sorry about the rants up thread.

Been a long war. Kinda tired of it.

5/09/2006 09:17:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

2164th,
The Problem was his dad choosing his Suds over his Son.
I've got pics of my kid in the brewhouse, walk-in, and surrounded by kegs.
Turned out pretty much Ok, 'cept now that he hangs out with Air Force types, HE drinks too much!
Plus he likes to p... people off.
Just like dad.

5/09/2006 12:22:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Why don't we start calling Andy
Andre?

5/09/2006 12:24:00 PM  
Blogger fred said...

I wonder what Che would have thought about his revolutionary partner being worth about 900 mil now? Want to bet that he would have regretted his foray into Bolivia? These revolutionaries are gangsters and thugs, who have conned the simple or the foolish educated folks into thinking that economic equality is supposed to be everyone's lot. In reality, I rather think the truth of revolutionary correctness is found more in the cash flow of former KGB apparatchiks now in the Russian mafia. My how the dreams of revolution have bloomed!

5/09/2006 09:36:00 PM  
Blogger fred said...

I find it repugnant that this myth of Che survives in our educational system, where these Sixties' retread retrogrades get to cut and paste what they like about a figure, engaging more in mythmaking and propaganda than being faithful to real history.

We live in an age where gangsters are lionized as revolutionaries worthy of emulation. It disgusts me.

5/09/2006 09:40:00 PM  
Blogger Cani said...

Ernesto Guevara is not a shirt. If People thinks that is because his image was rebuild. It is not casuality, now for the most of the people Che is only a image in a shirt.

Guavarra represents the moral of the revolution, the new men and a lot of things more. Sadly the large mayority don't know anything about it.

I'm from Buenos Aires, Argentina, America, and I can say without shame that I know some of the Guevara's ideas. Even here people see him as an image of rebellion.

I want revolucionaries not rebells.

Hasta la victoria, allways !
Viva la revolución !

7/04/2006 08:32:00 AM  

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