Monday, May 15, 2006

The melting plot

An email with a preview of the President's speech on immigration has been sent to me. Here are the parts that stick out. It suggests that for non-Mexican illegal aliens there will be detention until the deportation hearing.

The steps I've outlined will improve our ability to catch people entering our country illegally. At the same time, we must ensure that every illegal immigrant we catch crossing our southern border is returned home. More than 85 percent of the illegal immigrants we catch crossing the southern border are Mexicans, and most are sent back home within 24 hours. But when we catch illegal immigrants from other country [sic] it is not as easy to send them home. For many years, the government did not have enough space in our detention facilities to hold them while the legal process unfolded. So most were released back into our society and asked to return for a court date. When the date arrived, the vast majority did not show up. This practice, called "catch and release," is unacceptable, and we will end it. We're taking several important steps to meet this goal. We've expanded the number of beds in our detention facilities, and we will continue to add more. We've expedited the legal process to cut the average deportation time.

There is also a plan for a guest-worker program because the President has no faith in purely exclusionary defenses.

...we must create a temporary worker program. The reality is that there are many people on the other side of our border who will do anything to come to America to work and build a better life. They walk across miles of desert in the summer heat, or hide in the back of 18-wheelers to reach our country. This creates enormous pressure on our border that walls and patrols alone will not stop. To secure the border effectively, we must reduce the numbers of people trying to sneak across. Therefore, I support a temporary worker program that would create a legal path for foreign workers to enter our country in an orderly way, for a limited period of time.

Apparently there will be no wholesale offer of amnesty but a lifeline will be thrown to those illegals who have established roots in America.

Some in this country argue that the solution is to deport every illegal immigrant, and that any proposal short of this amounts to amnesty. I disagree. It is neither wise, nor realistic to round up millions of people, many with deep roots in the United States, and send them across the border. There is a rational middle ground between granting an automatic path to citizenship for every illegal immigrant, and a program of mass deportation. That middle ground recognizes there are differences between an illegal immigrant who crossed the border recently, and someone who has worked here for many years, and has a home, a family, and an otherwise clean record.

I believe that illegal immigrants who have roots in our country and want to stay should have to pay a meaningful penalty for breaking the law, to pay their taxes, to learn English, and to work in a job for a number of years. People who meet these conditions should be able to apply for citizenship, but approval would not be automatic, and they will have to wait in line behind those who played by the rules and followed the law. What I've just described is not amnesty, it is a way for those who have broken the law to pay their debt to society, and demonstrate the character that makes a good citizen.


These proposals are obviously not going to please everyone. Some quarters will regard the President's plan as excessively brutal; similarly others will view it as an ineffective half-measure. What would really be interesting is some sense of what this translates to in actual numbers. How many illegal aliens can be expected to cross despite the proposed beefing up of the border? How many deportations can be expected per year? What industries will suffer from penalties on hiring illegals? How many will qualify for the "path to citizenship"? How many are going to be shipped out? The devil is in the details.


Blogger Dymphna said...

I was disappointed. Someone on the Corner said he sounded like Mr. Rogers so that's what I titled my post.

I wanted to hear details about the wall. I wanted real specifics about how he is planning to help bail the states out from the nightmare that our sloppy sense of sovereignty has come to under his watch. Yeah, it was going on before he ever arrived at Pennsylvania Avenue, but to us in the boondocks, it always appeared that he was playing footsie with Vicente Fox.

All I want is parity: we should adopt Mexico's draconian immigration rules, which I listed in my post. You gotta have moolah if you plan to live in Mexico. Otherwise, don't bother applying.

And that "citizen's arrest" feature that Mexico has for illegal aliens sounds just about right for Arizona, Texas, Oklahoma, California, etc.

At least Georgia is getting tough. And making ol' Vicente mad.

I was a guest on the Tammy Bruce radio show today and she pointed out that it takes an average of twenty years for someone from the Philippines to get in. I said, "don't get me started."

5/15/2006 07:20:00 PM  
Blogger 2164th said...

The US experiment has taken an interesting turn, it has gone from "We the People" to "The People". The legacy of a people who have worked and paid taxes has been shifted to a process where any non-participant, any interloper, any person from any country just needs to arrive. They arrive and stake a future claim against the revenue sharing with legal US citizens and residents. That is an interesting experiment. Sorry you were not asked for your opinion.

5/15/2006 07:21:00 PM  
Blogger HK Vol said...

The US could learn a lot from Hong Kong in this instance.

require a minimum wage or a sub-minimum wage if the employee is being offered room and board.
require employee to provide minimal health insurance coverage.
nasty penalties for those who hire illegals.
all workers in the worker-program must be sponsored by employee before entering the country (can transfer once in).
One felony disqualifies someone
More than 2 misdemeanors disqualifies someone.
8-10 year program to become eligible for citizenship.
Tests before admittance - redimentry English & knowledge of US civics.
It is true. The average Filipino waits patiently for 20 years to enter the US to work while the average Mexican enters immediately. So let's not play favorites for the most part (some realistic accomodation for country size, proximity to US, & education).

But to say that "we're going to keep everyone out" is not realistic any more than "we're going to let everyone in" is realistic.

5/15/2006 07:34:00 PM  
Blogger Dymphna said...

Hong Kong's rules are much nicer than Mexico's. Here's what I got from a Mexican site:

these are the people permittted to settle in Mexico, right off their page:

· Retirees
· Investors
· Professionals
· Scientists & Technicians
· Artists and Sportspeople


Here's what you need to do/have in order to get your fine self inside the borders of Mexico, per the link above:

Immigrant, Active: - i.e. you do want to acquire permanent residency in Mexico AND work there:

You will need to satisfy the requirements for entry (e.g. professional, sponsored by a company, etc), or be able and prepared to invest at least 40,000 times the minimum daily wage in Mexico City.

Immigrant, Non-Active: - i.e. you do want to acquire permanent residency in Mexico but NOT work there:

If you are of retirement age (50+), and have at least US$1,500 or equivalent income per month, then a Retiree permit will be your easiest route.

If you are not of a retirement age (below 50) and want to live but not work in Mexico, you will need to contact the Mexican Consulate. Provided that you can prove a permanent steady income in line with the regulations, you may be granted an FM3 permit to live in Mexico, which would be eligible for conversion to an FM2 in 5 years. You will need to state what you intend to do there, e.g. early retirement due to health, etc.

Not bad. The US could do with some similar measures for awhile...

5/15/2006 08:11:00 PM  
Blogger allen said...


Your 7:20 PM - "All I want is parity"

Mexico's dysfunction has, does, and will continue to cause harm to the United States. And I don't blame poor Mexicans for making the effort to escape. Who wouldn’t? But if we’re going to have the responsibility of caring for tens of millions of Mexico's dregs, then, why not collect some of the benefits? Mexico could do worse than becoming part of the United States.

Oh, you mentioned numbers. What percent of Mexico's current population do we plan to incorporate? Thirty to thirty-six million looks like about 28-34%. Annexation is looking better all the time.

Has Mr. Bush ever been able to say "No" to Mr. Fox? I'd just like to know who I work for.

Thanks for you work!

5/15/2006 08:24:00 PM  
Blogger 2164th said...

This speech is the end of the Bush Presidency. He will pick up no support from the recently eroded and will hear a broad chorus of "adios amigo" from the stalwarts of the Old Guard. I just do not get it. Something snapped within the man and I am concerned about how bad it is.

5/15/2006 08:26:00 PM  
Blogger Chad said...

I fully support the President's program. The people such as dymphna who want to deport all the current illegals, build a wall and put troops on the border don't seem to have any idea of the cost, difficulty or impact on military readiness. For example the Israeli's have been building their wall for 6 years. It is only 350 miles long vs. 2000 miles if we were to fence the southern border. At no point is it more than 50 miles from a town with access to the necessary logistical support which would not be the case in the US. That is just one example. How much do you think it will cost to round up process and deport 12 million people. The closest analogue I can think of is the Holocaust (offered only as an example of scale not a judgement of motives so I dont think Godwin's law applies) and Stalin's purges, even Pol Pot didn't reach that scale. They each had years to carry out their programs and weren't real concerned with the treatment of their prisoners and they were both incredibly logistics intensive. The best way to handle this in my opinion is economically. As the President said if you take away the reason to come here illegally they won't come here illegally.

I do have to say I am jealous of dymphna, I have been a Tammy Bruce fan ever since she was on KFI.

5/15/2006 08:27:00 PM  
Blogger 2164th said...

Chad, you do not have to do anything draconian against the illegals. You need to go after the employers hammer and tong. Start with an IRS examination of filed IRS form 941.

5/15/2006 08:30:00 PM  
Blogger allen said...


Your 8:27 PM - "Israeli's have been building their wall for 6 years."

The Israelis had the Bush administration examining every inch (centimeter) of the wall's path, including every street, alley, goat path, pothole, and manhole cover. Presumably, although admittedly there is no guarantee, the US will not cede such micromanaging to the Mexican government.

Of course, if Mexico joined the Union, we could call the whole thing off. I may be a little premature, but I am a patient man.

5/15/2006 08:51:00 PM  
Blogger Brett L said...

ANY "Guest Worker" program sets up a LEGAL 2nd class peasantry within the US. I think its a terrible idea. It goes against the principle of assimilation. Who the hell wants to learn English so they can get booted back to Nicaragua in 5 years? Also, are documented guest workers going to pick fruit for $5.75/hr, or does the minimum wage not apply to them? How will that help Texas (where sales and property tax - paid by every renter through their landlord) or California (where guestworkers making $5.75/hr still don't pay their share of the services)?

Also, did anyone else notice that the Bush plan for the Nat'l Guard deployment sounds like the plan for Iraq? "The National Guard will only be there until we get the permanent guys trained..."

I will give Pres. Bush the credit of not dodging the issue of border security - frankly stating that the US does not control its southern border.

Its always nice to talk about the "hard working people" - and there's lots of 'em. How about the coyotes who profit from human trafficking? And not just running people to the border, but actual human slavery - usually women and children? The policies of the US Government have allowed these vampires to profit. And really, would Mexico be so underdeveloped if they didn't have $20 Billion in Free Money coming back in every year?

It is inexcusable for the US, in the 21st century, to allow their policy to benefit human smugglers and create a 2nd tier underclass. America shouldn't have a peasantry!

And I'm no damn dirty hippy, I just believe that every time we've turned our back on an incovenience it has festered and rotted. See Iraq, Sudan, N. Korea, Russia, Iran, etc.

5/15/2006 09:01:00 PM  
Blogger Dymphna said...


I support what little the president is doing. I want more. He seems tepid. And, no, I do not think it is realistic to deport every single illegal Mexican. We could start with the criminals, though, the ones who have hollowed out LA. That's a good start.

And I think a wall is do-able. We don't need one that is as long as our border. We need several of them in vulnerable places. Their very presence is a symbol, a symbol of a nation with a spine.

Behavior has consequences. I understand the desperate need to support one's family and the courage it takes to make the onerous journey. But our culture is overwhelmed and the haters are being led by is not a simple situation.

It is imperative that people understand Mexico's hand in this, Fox's outright encouragement, and the double-faced standards Mexico has for people coming in.

Our consulates in the border states do not recommend tourists in Mexico because they're such an attractive magnet for extortionist kidnappers.

This is a thirty year old (or more) problem...and yes, we sure could start with the businesses over about the subsidized agri-businesses who hire illegals to pick crops we don't need that are grown to keep prices artificially stable?

That's Thomas Sowell's suggestion for a starting place. And it's a good one.

Chad, have *you* any idea what illegal Mexican aliens are already costing our states? Have a chat with a few governors from the border states about costs...or municipalities who are having trouble keeping their hospitals open, or the crowded, lousy schools...not to mention the cost of crime, which can only be guessed at.

We are beginning to bleed money from all orifices and something has to give. It's a sign that the party's over when men start forming groups to protect our sovereignty because our President won't.

Be careful of your muddy bottom on that slide down the slippery slope.

WE didn't cause Mexican poverty and if we didn't let ambitious Mexicans ramble across the border, they'd soon turn their energies to cleaning Fox's clock. It's past time.

5/15/2006 09:04:00 PM  
Blogger 2164th said...

How You Gonna' Keep 'Em Down On The Farm After They've Seen Cincinnati?

5/15/2006 09:07:00 PM  
Blogger Dymphna said...

Bret l

Absolutely right! We've created a peasant class.

Damn! Why didn't I see that before? And what are peasants if not aggrieved, abused and disadvantaged 3rd class "citizens"? In this case, we rub their noses in it and make them alien beings. No wonder ANSWER can lead them around on a rope.

5/15/2006 09:11:00 PM  
Blogger allen said...

The President gets tough! The President gets serious! Those are predicted Fox News headlines for tomorrow.

Excuse me, but isn’t this the same President whose agents were, just a week ago, giving information to the Mexican government that would allow illegals to cross the border without the risk of meeting Minute Men (or was that vigilantes?). Anybody out there heard of any firings for this public relations fiasco? I didn’t think so.

Sorry, but Mr. Bush has sold me a bill of goods once too often. What I saw was a flea bitten coyote hide covering the same bleating, docile sheep.

5/15/2006 09:17:00 PM  
Blogger Dymphna said...

Another voice: "In From the Cold":

Funny, but the "boots on the ground" coalition won't apply the same principle to securing our southern border. President Bush's tepid plan to assigned 5,000 National Guard members to border duties (on a temporary basis) has been met with predictable "concerns" about our over-stretched military, and calls to further strengthen the Border Patrol, rather than deploy military personnel.


Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I do seem to recall something about ensuring domestic tranquility and providing for the common defense in the preamble to the Constitution. And, given the chaos that exists along our southern border, some sort of military presence seems essential to satisfy those constitutional requirements. But folks like Senator Hagel would prefer to spend a few more years recruiting (and training) more Border Patrol agents. By the time we achieve that goal, or more accurately, if we achieve that goal, another 3 or 4 million illegal immigrants will have crossed our borders, and making the crisis even worse.

Boots on the Ground

Think I'll go update my blog.

5/15/2006 09:21:00 PM  
Blogger crosspatch said...

End of "catch and release"
Building of barriers.
Creation of a more difficult to forge worker credential.
Addition of UAVs and other technologies to the border.
Crackdown on people hiring illegals.

What's not to like? He addressed most of my personal concerns. I would have liked a couple more. Crackdown on ANY employer hiring workers illegal or not "under the table".
A national sales tax of a couple of percent with a matching reduction in income tax in order to tax the underground economy whose participants still buy stuff.

5/15/2006 09:27:00 PM  
Blogger 2164th said...

Dymphna is correct, the underground economy is the the driving force for illegal immigration. If an employer pays an illegal the same net pay as a native worker, he realizes a 30% cost advantage over a compliant competitor. Throw in workers' compensation, holiday and vacation pay and a slightly less pay and the cost advantage is greater than 50%. The average illegal worker will also work harder and longer. There is a huge economic incentive for both the employer and the illegal. As always follow the money.

5/15/2006 09:46:00 PM  
Blogger Chad said...


If I misinterpreted the tone of your post then I apologize. I do know what illegals are costing the states in terms of social services etc. however those costs are amortized over time. Not an immediate hit like a mass deportation program would be. I agree that we need control over our border but a much more effective way to stop illegal immigration would be to crack down on employers and stop private money transfers to Mexico. That would stop about 90% of it right there (in my opinion of course I don't have any proof beyond the fact that $20 bln a year is transfered to Mexico from the US. Their single biggest source of foriegn currency). We still need a barrier to stop drug trafficers, terrorists etc. but we have to be realistic about how long it will take to build one. We also need to be realistic about the economic effect if we suddenly displace 5% of our work force without adequate replacements.

5/15/2006 10:02:00 PM  
Blogger R A S said...

There is not a person that I know who would not like to see higher wages for lower class Americans. The problem is unless you want to wall off America and make a ‘go of it’ alone, wages will in part be determined by folks in countries outside of our own. Not by immigrants but places where companies can set up production plants with willing low wage, workers. Places where educated people in third world countries will perform services for US companies. If you insist that not happen, sorry, it will happen anyway but with non US companies who will in turn sell their products here and to our current non US customers. Further I might add, each time we make an effort to 'go it alone', the going was brutal and eventually world problems bit us on the hind side, while we were a bit ill on the inside.
We need a fence and a tight boarder 1st above all. We also should increase legal immigration.
Arguments about gangs, criminal illegals, and how 'my' forefathers came in legally, do not relate to today's situation. Things have changed and are not equivalent to today's situation. There is good reason to secure the boarder and regulate immigration, but it should be properly stated. There were criminals with every immigration wave from every country. The percentage now is a little higher for hispanics, probably because of our proximity to the Mexican boarder. In ages past it took a determined, farsighted criminal to save up enough money to purchase a ticket across the ocean. Gang problems are nothing new; remember the recent movie about the gangs of New York with the blond haired Titanic star. So with Hispanic criminals, it is not the DNA, but rather the proximity that is the problem and hence the need for a fence and tight boarder
Every time immigration is discussed, folks always say that my grandparents came in legally and learned english and wanted to become citizens. That is not a legitimate argument. 

1st. They were not required to wait in long lines in their home country, they simply boarded a boat and filled out papers when they got here and began the process. 

2nd There were no limits as to how many could come, until just before the last great depression. Along with protectionism, the country also demanded a limit to immigration applicants. This was part of the worldwide revolt that pitted country against country, shutting down imports and exports. The resulting adjustment was very damaging to the flow of capital and goods. The depression took a long time to realign production, capital flows, skilled laborers, and societies attitudes (depression has more to do with attitude and emotion than depressed markets).
3rd The INS process of becoming a citizen, is next to impossible, and the limits are untenable. Talk to someone who is diligently trying to go through the process. You think the DMV and IRS give you the runaround? Try the INS. Feel resentment toward the Government for the high rate of taxes and the infuriating rules of the IRS. Multiply the infuriation and picture the resentment those trying to get LEGAL immigration papers, have toward the government.
Our own elite not only use illegal immigrants as lower class citizens worthy of only minimal wage labor, they pander to them insisting on dual languages in government documents, thus insuring no upward mobility and integration. Someone must dig the latrines they say, Americans won’t do it. An amazingly degraded view of fellow humans and a strange view of the value of hard work.
Many, many, INS workers have a jaded view of Latinos and certain Asians and treat them poorly. This is result of the increasing size of the bureaucracy, mixed with unfortunate human tendencies. It is the natural evolution of governments to empower massive bureaucracies. The 21st century applicants, who run into this horribly long, drawn out, process and biases, (especially those who are poor immigrants with little established family here) naturally feel oppressed by the “United States”. This is radically different from the days our families immigrated here. Our forefathers wanted to come, so they came. They kissed the ground for the freedom and most importantly to poor immigrants, the opportunity to excel. After a short time in New York, they were off to explore this country and it’s opportunities. They had little time to build resentments; indeed the “United States” welcomed them, though not necessarily it’s citizens. 
Their entry bared little resemblance to 21st century immigrants, legal or illegal.
It is the welfare society that causes the huge friction between people. Everyone pays such a huge amount into the government coffers; they get furious when someone newly arrived, draws from the kitty. This is a new condition/environment our forefathers did not experience.
These comparisons have no place in arguments, pro or con. Now for the belligerent’s, they set up straw men to vent anger at and garner votes. You can listen to their speeches on Spanish radio and TV. Rally, after rally, they actually begin to believe their own deception. It is Racism they decry yet Caucasians in general, have no problem with hispanics who integrate legally and abide the laws of the land. They could care less, the country of origin, but insist on an understanding of America’s history, language, and law.
After all is said and done, US citizens bare a good share of the blame for the mess. They have fallen far in moral clarity, political vision, and distanced themselves from the founding principles of this promised land. They have allowed the political class to bribe them into submission. Newly integrated citizens are an asset, as they bring appreciation for freedom, liberty, and opportunity that most Americans have taken for granted and lost the ability to comprehend it’s origins. Many bring a faith in God that is sorely lacking in many liberal, but gratitude deficient Americans.

Do not misinterpret what I am saying, wide open boarders is a nightmare in so many ways, but shutting down boarders so only a very few can immigrate is not going to solve our problems either. Elitists and liberals are not recent immigrants. Socialists, race baiters, Castro lovers, and anti-Americans are mainly bred in the University and select blue city upper echelons. They have worked their way up the prominence ladders to big city newspapers, top Hollywood circles, Educational organizations, and political careers. They are so far removed from the origins of freedom and liberty that historical context always eludes them. Freedom and liberty means the right to be supported while saying the crude, the vulgar, and anti-American tripe. It means to them, printing the crude, the vulgar, and anti-American tripe and not even be criticized. It means sexual freedom to what ever you can imagine, in public or private and not ever be criticized. All other liberties are of small importance or unproductive. Small communities will punish their beloved freedom and liberties so they fight to move all power to the central authorities (the Federal Government).
Most (not all) new immigrants do not share these beliefs; to the contrary, those who were able to legally join us, came from socialisms dregs and failures, and provide welcome gratitude for the real freedoms and liberties the country was founded upon. Increasing legal immigration while closing down illegal immigration will provide a leavening to those masses from previous immigrations that have begun or completely forgotten the greatness of the founding principles.

5/15/2006 10:14:00 PM  
Blogger Aristides said...

It strikes me that Bush is playing one hell of a game, a serious game, a dangerous game. He is staking everything on the mythic idea of America.

Bush’s speech was only indirectly aimed at immigration. Its primary target was anti-Americanism (the true enemy).

Bush has a lot of failings, but cynicism isn’t one of them. He is a true true-believer. He knows in his soul that America is the last great hope of mankind, not as a land, but as a concept. If America fails as an idea, if it loses its essential nature as a faith and as a hope, all will be lost. Cynicism will have won out in the world of the West.

Bush is holding the flame high so it won’t go out. Don’t look at the speech as a mere domestic concern about immigration and borders. Watch it carefully and you will see its true function: a fire-hose aimed at the rhetorical powder kegs of those who hate America, and a heavy salvo in the broader battle of ideas.

In the ideological game of chess, the myth of virtue is king. Bush is protecting the King.

5/15/2006 10:30:00 PM  
Blogger ed said...


Impeach President Bush.

Impeach him for failing to secure the borders even after 5 years of war.

Impeach him for failing to uphold the law when he swore an oath to do so.

Frankly if all I've got as a weapon is to stay home in Nov, then that's what I'm going to do. As far as I'm concerned the slate needs to be wiped clean and started over.

5/15/2006 10:43:00 PM  
Blogger rhhardin said...

Numbers : the chief effect can't really be known. It is whether rounding up even a small number of illegals causes a panic among illegals or not. My recollection, when it happened in LA briefly, was that panic reigns.

In that case, rounding up a few with a promise to continue doing it, has a huge side-effect in the same direction.

5/15/2006 11:03:00 PM  
Blogger sam said...

Bush Calls for Buildup on Border:

Next week in Sacramento, Schwarzenegger is scheduled to hold his first meeting with Mexican President Vicente Fox. After more than two years in office, Schwarzenegger has made two trips to Mexico for border governors' meetings, but never for an official state visit to Los Pinos, the Mexico City equivalent of the White House.

Former Gov. Gray Davis met multiple times with Fox.

Buildup on Border

5/16/2006 12:16:00 AM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

Aristedes - It's a little late in the game to try and spin Bush II as some sort of brilliant leader operating in complex layers where what he says actually disguises his grand strategy. Be it the "grateful noble purple-fingered freedom lovers" who have said the last American ass better hit the door by the end of 2008 in Iraq, or your idea that Bush is actually some Statue of Liberty in drag holding his lantern up to keep the American [Or Jewish Open Borders] dream alive.

I didn't find a single word he said sincere or credible in his immigration speech. I have no trust in the guy any more. His speech was about 6,000 purely temporary troops not permitted to directly guard the Border and his full program for backdoor amnesty.

I once believed in this guy, back in 2000-2002, but all he really stands for is crony capitalism and jewish Neocon Hegemon Empire dreams. A Republican version of Jimmy Carter. A weak tool sockpuppet of the Ruling Elites -who is inflicting more damage through his bumblings than even Carter.

I think the best thing I can do is work vote out any Republican this fall, as a way of moving conservatism past this backstabbing idiot.

5/16/2006 01:03:00 AM  
Blogger 2164th said...

Two Centuries of Orderly Growth is on the Verge of Collapsing

The Senate immigration reform bill would allow for up to 193 million new legal immigrants -- a number greater than 60 percent of the current U.S. population -- in the next 20 years, according to a study released yesterday.
"The magnitude of changes that are entailed in this bill -- and are largely unknown -- rival the impact of the creation of Social Security or the creation of the Medicare program," said Robert Rector, senior policy analyst at the Heritage Foundation who conducted the study.
Although the legislation would permit 193 million new immigrants in the next two decades, Mr. Rector estimated that it is more likely that about 103 million new immigrants actually would arrive in the next 20 years.
Sen. Jeff Sessions, Alabama Republican who conducted a separate analysis that reached similar results, said Congress is "blissfully ignorant of the scope and impact" of the bill, which has bipartisan support in the Senate and has been praised by President Bush.

5/16/2006 03:00:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Unmentioned by our "sincere" president is the FACT that he abandoned one of the most effective deterrents to out of control illegal immigration:
Workplace enforcement.
No mention of the FACT that, even after 9-11 he did less on this front than Bill Clinton!
Employers responded by hiring more illegals, resulting in ever larger waves of people seeking to enter by any means available.

The Presidents cynical approach breeds cynicism in those attempting to explain it. Only POTUS knows for sure why he does what he does, the only thing we can be sure of is that he has never leveled with us on this issue yet, as proved by his perfomance.
David Frum - Unguarded
When the Bush administration fitfully attempts to enforce the immigration laws, it looks for measures that meet four criteria:
They must be 1) spectacular; 2) expensive; 3) unsustainable; and 4) ineffective.
The proposal to deploy the National Guard to the border meets all four!

This plan won't work, and it is not seriously meant to work. It's supposed to look dramatic and buy the president some respite from negative polls - and then it is supposed to fail, strengthening the administration's case for its truly preferred approach: amnesty + guestworkers.
PS- There's another Macchiavellian twist to the president's plan. The administration explains that the National Guard is to be deployed on the border only temporarily, until additional border guards can be hired and trained. And where is the money for those additional border guards contained? Inside the Senate's amnesty bill! So the as the National Guardsmen, already overstressed from frequent deployments in Iraq, with their families and jobs suffering from absence, will find themselves doing police work through an Arizona summer .... until such time as Congress passes the amnesty bill the president wants. In other words: the National Guard is not there to enforce the law. It's there as a hostage to compel the House to surrender to the president and the Senate - or else face the wrath of National Guardsmen and their families. Clever!
Senate Bill Would Allow 100 Million New Legal Immigrants Over Next Twenty Years

5/16/2006 03:38:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

We will always be proud to welcome people like Guadalupe Denogean as fellow Americans. Our new immigrants are just what they have always been – people willing to risk everything for the dream of freedom.
As he is so fond of doing, Bush mixes beautiful facts with ugly fiction.
In this case he uses a heroic, patriotic warrior, who happens to be Mexican, to "prove" that everything is as it always has been.
Leaving out the ugly details of the many that now are lured and corrupted by free services, preferential treatment, criminal opportunities, and so forth implicit in our multicult, victimology driven welfare state.

Bush: 'To Secure Our Border, We Must Create a Temporary Worker Program'

5/16/2006 03:59:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Yes, Mathilda, he really said that! -
"Second, to secure our border, we must create a temporary worker program. "

5/16/2006 04:04:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Bush's Message: I Won't Enforce Laws We Have Until I Get the Laws I Want
'Comprehensive' immigration reform holds border security hostage for 'guest worker' ransom
How can the President promise to use all manner of technology—motion sensors, drones, cameras, fences, vehicle barriers—to keep dangerous illegal aliens out, and then argue that those same criminal aliens become indispensable and honorable once past the gizmos?
Why bother to keep out anyone, if they all become wonderful by the time they reach Dallas?

Why, in short, would he have us believe that enforcing immigration laws at the border is a good thing, but we must not enforce immigration laws just a few miles north of the border?

Because you cannot simultaneously argue for earnestly enforcing the immigration laws in our interior and also argue for a guest worker amnesty of the millions of illegal aliens already hiding there.
And the guest worker amnesty is the only part of the allegedly “comprehensive” bill that the President is actually interested in.
If we support the President’s plan, all we can be sure we’ll get is the amnesty part—just like 1986.

The only way we can secure our borders is to pass an enforcement-only bill, and then see to it that it is actually enforced.
Our nation’s security cannot be held hostage to the politics of amnesty any longer.

5/16/2006 04:11:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

If virtual fences are so hot, why don't we tear down all the ugly fences and barriers in DC, and replace them with virtual fences?

5/16/2006 04:18:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...

Mr. John Podhoretz has written a lecture/critique of Mr. Bush's powerful appearance of last evening. Read it and weep.

Mr. Podhoretz is correct – had “he... presented these policies a year ago… (they) would have stood and cheered. And if wishes were horses, beggars would be kings.

Mr. Podhoretz will have to excuse the unenlightened and unconvinced “rump[s]”, “rebels”, “radicals”, “anti-Bush wing”, “anti-Bushies”, and “restrictionists”, but forcing a guy to the alter, while he kicks and screams the whole way is not reassuring – much like forcing a drug addict into detoxification.

As a matter of fact, talking about detox, the most valuable addictive commodity crossing the border is not drugs; it is the river of readily exploitable souls. And this is why there will be a bipartisan bill on immigration that will prove as flawed as that of 1986. In a bipartisan way, American politicians and business, with the ever present enablers like Mr. Podhoretz, are addicted and, like all addicts, they are now in angry denial.

Here’s a clue for Mr. Bush, Mr. Podhoretz et al: real Conservatives expect “cold turkey”. Mr. Bush promises gradual withdrawal, with obvious signs of improvement by “2008”. This will not stand!

Mr. Podhoretz apparently believes that denigrating the loyal REPUBLICAN opposition is wisdom. I do not think "vigilantes" much of a rallying cry for the Bush immigration doctrine.

5/16/2006 04:29:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

J Pod, clueless on this issue as always, must be unaware that Bush already said much of what he repeated tonight *IN 2004!!!*

5/16/2006 04:58:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...

I regret speaking ill of Mr. Podhoretz. He has been a far better man than his latest scribbling would prove. It is sad to see he and others like Fred Barnes, for example, apply the Vince Lombardi axiom to politics, i.e. “Winning isn’t everything; it’s the only thing.”

Sorry, but in this case patriotism is the only thing, and patriotism is non-partisan.

5/16/2006 04:59:00 AM  
Blogger Brett L said...

Alright, so... Having slept on it, I remembered to ask, did anyone else spend the first 3-5 minutes wondering if he was going to say, "Live from New York!"

But seriously, persons in this country who aren't on the path to citizenship, and don't have anywhere to return to are the peasantry of America. Which, the American Ideal could handle whilst it was persons here illegally. To set that up legally - as if it would be better to bus in people to do the "jobs Americans won't do", rather than find persons highly motivated to become Americans by doing such jobs.

And, by-the-way, who controls the guest worker program? Employers? The same employers who are paying $3/hr now and "having difficulty" determining who on their staff is illegal? Come on - just because an asshole happens to be a capitalist, it doesn't excuse him from being one. We can't put that power in the hands of employers, and I think its been conclusively proven we can't supervise the employers. Its all smoke and mirrors - and will stay that way until the bad stuff goes down again.

5/16/2006 05:05:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Great Roundup at NRO, including the following from VDH:
My own chief worry is that guest-workers will only perpetuate the problem by supplying a continual unassimilated, low-paid, and ultimately volatile underclass. And such a helot program (a cultural and social catastrophe in Europe) is, in fact, antithetical to many of the president's own proposals.
Cheap labor will undermine the wages of the very illegal aliens that are granted residence while they apply for citizenship; it will continually provide the fuel for La Raza and Aztlan romance; and keep fresh the tired ethnic sloganeering and tribal activists who hate assimilation and would die on the vine without fresh victims of "exploitation"—while ensuring that Mexico gets its remittances and avoids reform by exporting its unwanted.

Second, there was nothing specific offered to match the rhetoric of assimilation. Why not introduce court-proof, English-only legislation that would return our federal documents to one language? Or at least proposals in our schools to emphasize the melting pot? Or new patriotic citizenship applications that emphasize English and knowledge and appreciation of American culture?

5/16/2006 05:10:00 AM  
Blogger RWE said...

Just like in rocket science, the devil is indeed in the details...

I understand that 75% of the people employed in agriculture and 85% of those employed in construction are here legally.

Back in the early 80's I heard an interesting statistic. If we had kept the same phone switching technology that we had in 1915, the entire female population of the U.S. would be required today to operate the phone system. In some kinds of agriculture, it is still 1915 - or for that matter, 1715. We have robots crawling around Mars but none picking strawberries down here.

5/16/2006 05:13:00 AM  
Blogger RWE said...

Allen: You have to realize something. It is the President who is consistantly framing the debate. Illegal immigration did not suddenly arise, and neither did terrorism, energy supply problems, social insecurity, our rotten schools, etc..

With the possible exzception of terrorism, Presdient Bush raised these issues as problems that had to be fixed - and he was working on terrorism even before 9/11/01.

We seem to be conducting a training class on the importance of being a do-nothing politician.

5/16/2006 05:19:00 AM  
Blogger Habu_1 said... can deport 11 million people. No physics,geometry, or arthemetic says otherwise.

#2 If they continue the "invasion", then kill them as they cross the border.

It's not rocket science. It's called protecting your soverignty.

Unfortuneately this counrty has lost it's will to remain great, is now solvenly,bloated,and corrupt.

5/16/2006 05:27:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

There would be no "Them."
If that were the policy,
there would be ONE,
and compliance would result, lives would be saved, and the problem solved.
We have long since abandoned such simple, compassionate, and WORKABLE solutions.
People now get paid to prove that real solutions are "impossible."
Talk about self-fulling programs.

5/16/2006 05:39:00 AM  
Blogger John Samford said...

I'm of the ineffective half measure party. You CANNOT control a border patrolling just one side of it. So Until the Mexicans start patrolling their side, America could put millions of troops on our side without halting the flow.
The way to get Mexico to patrol their side is simple. Halt ALL money transfers between America and Mexico. Right now the money illegals send back home is the largest source of income for Mexico.
Doing that and putting Americans that employee illegals in jail will do more then anything else to stop the traffic. A big wall would help a lot too. I mean a BIG wall. 10 meters high and 20 wide, 3,000 KM's long. We could use convicts for labor and help the crime rate also. Instead of 3 squares and color TV, prison would mean a cot and 16 hours of moving dirt by shovel. See how the boys in the 'hood go for that.

5/16/2006 05:43:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...


Your 5:19 AM - "do-nothing politician"

First, permit me to compliment you on many of your past comments. They have been thought provoking, which is, of course, the whole purpose of the exercise. While tardy, thank you.

Anyone reading my comments to this thread and others could not come away with the impression that I favor do-nothing politicians. Speaking of Mr. Bush, to the contrary, I have been quite vocal in my desire: I want a President of the United States.

Like every American citizen, the President is entitled to his personal opinions, which in the case of Mexico seem to favor nothing less than a de facto open border.

As a sworn officer of the United States, the President, as Federal judges, has a duty to conscientiously defend the Constitution and the laws of the United States, his personal opinions, notwithstanding. When I was a lad, President Eisenhower twice ordered troops to the South to uphold court ordered desegregation; this, despite his personal reservations about the usurpation of states rights.

Others can make excuses for the President as long as they choose; I am done with it. There is a joke concerning a secret handbook studied by all Air Force officers attending the War College, titled "The 101 Excuses for Why I Cannot Do My Job." That is a joke; the President's performance is not. If he cannot or will not do his duty, then, resign.

There are those who see criticism of the President as informative and enabling to our adversaries. Well, our adversaries do not need me or any other Republican critic of Mr. Bush to take his measure; they had his range long ago.

5/16/2006 05:50:00 AM  
Blogger Habu_1 said...

Mr. Samford,
Great points. Just one adjustment I would reinforce in my earlier post.
Mexico need do nothing. There are enough guns and citizens in this country to go down to the border and kill every illegal invader. There would be no lack of volunteers.
I would be willing to bet that if you made protecting the border legal by US citizens, deputized to use deadly force you'd get well over a million people down on the border killing the invaders. It would stop them.

5/16/2006 05:52:00 AM  
Blogger John Samford said...

Chad, not a penny. You put the employeers in jail and the illegals cannot find work. Then you start a program that allows employers to hire 'guest workers' IN THEIR COUNTRY of origin. Hire them thru Manpower, Temps Inc., Labor Ready or any of the employment companies that want the business. The Current Illegals can go back home and go down to the Labor Mart franchise and sign up. End of problem. They leave as illegals and come back as legal guest workers. Doesn't cost the taxpayer a penny.
Meanwhile we build a BIG pookin wall using Convict Labor. Make it out of tilt-up concrete with fill dirt and it won't cost much or take long.
1.3 million of so convicts swinging shovels can move a LOT of dirt. Let the Army Corp of Engineers run the project. W might not have to even buy the shovels. See how many are left over from WW2. Or start a 'Shovels for America' campaign, where everybody goes out to their garage and finds an extra shovel or two.
As far as the Israeli 'barrier', you are talking apples and pineapples. both are edible, but there are differences. The Israeli barrier was designed to be torn down, since it started out as a bargining chip in the great game. It was ONLY after the barrier was proven to work that talk started on it becoming the de-facto border of Israel. The MEXAMI (AMIMEX?) wall will be as permenant as anythng ever built by humans. 2,000 years from now it will be a tourist trap. School children from Wolf 126 will stop by on the class trip. It will make the Great Wall of China look like a garden fence to keep rodents out.

5/16/2006 06:07:00 AM  
Blogger RWE said...

Allen: Your comments have often hit the mark as well, and thank you for that.

But while I am not accusing you of favoring The Do Nothing Approach, you need to realize that the net, aggregate approach of input from all sides amounts to that when viewed from DC.

The result is that they roll into a turn, then tromp hard on the rudder and fly in a crab, still going the same direction but pointing the wings and the nose in opposite directions, adding power (money) as required to maintain the illusion of progress toward competing paths. And hoping that they don't stall and spin - at least not on their watch.

5/16/2006 06:22:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...


Your 6:22 AM

Thanks and touché! I'm guessing that that War College thing hit a chord (or discord?). Oh, my wife (active duty) is less amused as she rises in the food-chain – but no one is perfect. We'll have to see how it all plays out.

On that note, Power Line, hardly a hot bed of either rebel Republicans or lost liberals, has two scathing reviews on Mr. Bush’s speech.

___Reconquista, Here We Come!

___How to read the speech

Should the ME remain static, the issue of illegal immigration has the makings of a seismic shift in national focus. "Every man for himself and the devil take the hindmost" just may define the up-coming campaign.

5/16/2006 06:50:00 AM  
Blogger MD said...

If you're interested in the "details," consult the Heritage Foundation or Sen. Sessions, both of whom have performed an analysis of the number of immigrants expected over the next 20 years under Bush's "plan." Oh, about 193 million.

And, they will all have green cards, entitling them to all welfare benefits, including social security benefits (even if they haven't paid a cent into the system). Young Americans should be horrified, because they'll be supporting a permanent underclass for the rest of their lives.

Bush's proposal is the single most radical policy proposal in the history of the United States.

5/16/2006 07:11:00 AM  
Blogger skipsailing said...

Well, I chose not to listen to the speech. My son's lovely girl friend had stopped by and we were packing up my son's next care package. 26 bucks airfreight to Iraq, wow, that's lot of magazines and ramen noodles.

Besides, the speech didn't much matter to me. What matters is action.
Let's see some of this high blown rhetoric turned into deeds. Sheriff Joe has the right idea and there's a hell of a lot we could already be doing.

but I must sound at least on cautionary note. The illegals themselves are not without advocates in the US. I look for a bleeding heart emotional campaign on the same scale as that we witnessed around welfare reform.

Look for NPR stories about families dieing in the desert heat, children of Mexican illegals who will die if they are deported, stories of young people who have lived here so long that they cannot go back and on and on and on.

If we want change we will have to firm. We will have to stand up to this emotional assault and retain the courage of our convictions.

5/16/2006 07:13:00 AM  
Blogger Aristides said...

I don't think most here appreciate the depth of the issue. In fact, I find the majority's nativist impulses wrong-headed and potentially destructive.

What is the inherent injury of illegal immigration? Is it the grievous wound the fact of immigration per se? Is it the lack of documentation? Is it the corruption of the language? Is it the corruption of the polis? Is it the tax burden? Is it chaos? Is it the threat of terrorism?

Each factor plays a part in making illegal immigration undesirable. The trick is to solve these problems without creating even worse ones down the road.

On that count almost everybody here is being slightly or greatly myopic. The most pressing problem for our polis in the 21st Century is to make the case for its continued existence in a world where every website, every channel, and every medium offers opinions and facts on just that question.

The rise of a world connected by technology has greatly facilitated the rise of the moral demagogue, the man with all the negative facts and the reasons why you should care. This man is our mortal enemy, because his function is to bury our self-respect under a mountain of cynicism. He wants to make it embarrassing to be a believer. He strives to make integrity an illusion and to make purity flawed. His goal is chaos and upheaval, and his charge is hypocrisy.

We cannot afford to lose the myth of America over illegal immigration and a new-found fetish for rules over human lives. On that score, I would rather have a land of immigrant believers than nativist cynics.

No longer can we only think about how to solve problems. We must also think about how our solutions can be used against us.

5/16/2006 07:13:00 AM  
Blogger dchamil said...

rwe 5:13 ... we have robots crawling around on Mars but none picking strawberries here. Right on, if a robot can assemble a computer, maybe it can learn to pick a tomato. Employers use whatever is cheap. If labor is cheap, they use labor. If machines are cheap, they use machines. The history of agriculture is in large part the history of mechanization of harvest. And if strawberries (like bananas) can't be profitably grown here, then I say import strawberries rather than strawberry pickers.

5/16/2006 07:18:00 AM  
Blogger RWE said...

Allen: In regards to a "seismic shift," I find it interesting that the illegals flooding into the U.S. appear to be utterly unconcerned with the NSA monitoring their calls, with $3 gasoline, with our alleged loss of national prestige due to war in Iraq, with rising interest rates, with Scooter Libby and Valierie Plame, with Jack Abranhof, with the poor response to Katrina, with the lack of national health insurance - you name it, they don't care - they just want to come here.

And you can bet there are at least a billion plus others out there somewhere that have the same attitude - from every country in the world, from Ireland to Iran. And they are utterly unconcerned with preserving their "rich national heritage" - they are trying to escape it, for the most part.

Kinda puts things in perspective, doesn't it?

5/16/2006 07:31:00 AM  
Blogger skipsailing said...

I simply cannot resist. This quote from aristedes is just too provocative.

"The rise of a world connected by technology has greatly facilitated the rise of the moral demagogue, the man with all the negative facts and the reasons why you should care. This man is our mortal enemy, because his function is to bury our self-respect under a mountain of cynicism. He wants to make it embarrassing to be a believer. He strives to make integrity an illusion and to make purity flawed. His goal is chaos and upheaval, and his charge is hypocrisy."

Why, sir, you are describing Ash!!!!

5/16/2006 07:37:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...


At 03:30 the other morning my wife was on the tarmac, seeing a group of her "kids" off. As always, each got her personal e-mail and cell number. For some, the war is not an abstraction.

Your son will be in our prayers,as well.

5/16/2006 07:53:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...


Your 7:31 AM – “perspective”

It is exactly that precious perspective of the American myth (Aristides) which must be protected at all costs. When we surrender our uniquely American identity, we will die. The uncontested massive influx of illegals is merely the symptom; the political loss of will is the disease.

5/16/2006 08:00:00 AM  
Blogger bordergal said...

Senate Immigration Bill Would Allow 100 Million New Legal Immigrants over the Next Twenty Years

The Heritage Foundation
by Robert Rector

If enacted, the Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act (CIRA, S.2611) would be the most dramatic change in immigration law in 80 years, allowing an estimated 103 million persons to legally immigrate to the U.S. over the next 20 years—fully one-third of the current population of the United States.

Much attention has been given to the fact that the bill grants amnesty to some 10 million illegal immigrants. Little or no attention has been given to the fact that the bill would quintuple the rate of legal immigration into the United States, raising, over time, the inflow of legal immigrants from around one million per year to over five million per year. The impact of this increase in legal immigration dwarfs the magnitude of the amnesty provisions.

In contrast to the 103 million immigrants permitted under CIRA, current law allows 19 million legal immigrants over the next twenty years. Relative to current law, then, CIRA would add an extra 84 million legal immigrants to the nation’s population.

The figure of 103 million legal immigrants is a reasonable estimate of the actual immigration inflow under the bill and not the maximum number that would be legally permitted to enter. The maximum number that could legally enter would be almost 200 million over twenty years—over 180 million more legal immigrants than current law permits.

5/16/2006 08:55:00 AM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

I'm wondering if in the November elections there will be a whole-sale voting out of the current incumbents across-the-board. Mayors, city council-people, governors, senators, congress-people -- ANY one who is currently in office and will be seen as part of this refusal on the part of American government to address illegals sapping America's strength.

It seems to me that Democrats currently in office are in just as perilous a position as Republicans.

Further, I think we are just a hop, skip and a jump from the sort of citizen vigilante-ism that scares the hell out of non-Americans like Wretchard. If our elected government refuses to do what we are demanding of it, then - dammit - we'll do it ourselves.

If and when we American citizens gear up to evict the illegal Mexicans, I wonder what will happen to turban-wearing Muslims who happen to be in the vicinity.

5/16/2006 09:05:00 AM  
Blogger skipsailing said...

Thank you Allen. No, to me this war is not an abstraction and I watch events there carefully.

I don's pretend to know as much about it as many of the posters here, but having a personal stake in the Iraq effort certainly sharpens the focus.

but I have a question for the learned posters here: How much of what is being discussed vis a vis immigration reminds you of Rome?

5/16/2006 09:08:00 AM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

It's very concerning to me as an American citizen, as a taxpayer and as a voter that to date, Mr. Bush is indicating more concern about Vincente Fox's reactions than he is about mine.

5/16/2006 09:08:00 AM  
Blogger Brett L said...


Just because the bandwidth devoted to this issue has widened over the last month, don't get overwrought. Houstonians aren't about to start lynching guys at the day labor sites.

I think, first and foremost, most Americans expect the government to enforce the law as it is written.

My own concern is that the current enforcement system works as a way to keep the 2nd tierism to the first generation of immigrants. They might be illegal, but their children are Americans. It also gives the trouble group (young men) a reason to settle down and domesticate. A temporary or guest worker program doesn't provide these incentives. It's a bad deal and against all of those American Values Sr. Presidente was touting last night.

5/16/2006 09:40:00 AM  
Blogger geoffgo said...

John Samford,

There you go inciting defense/da-fence.

How about portable strips of razor wire. 10-20 miles long and 30 yards wide, with sensors. Insert where necessary, thus making the walk, all of a sudden, 5-10 miles farther, devaluing current maps, and herding the flow toward choke points, where they can get bussed home immdiately, and perhaps 50 miles farther away than their original embarcation point.

Nightly air-drops, by the Corps of Eng., advertising some drop schedules in advance on spanish language stations. Remove the value of and continuously disrupt the routes of the coyotes.

We need to make it a whole lot more probable trouble, just to get a busride home.

In addition, we need to begin imediately turning non-Mexican illegals caught on the broder, over to Mexican authorities. It's not it's our problem that they came from elsewhere south. They came across our border from Mexico.

Of course, fine the employers starting Weds.

5/16/2006 10:30:00 AM  
Blogger geoffgo said...

But Allen,

If fences show a lack of cofidence, where from the expression that "good walls make good neighbors"?

Perhaps the symbology of confience lost can be overshadowed by the symbol of wiil to defend.

5/16/2006 11:10:00 AM  
Blogger bobalharb said...

I've wondered if a private citizen might be able to sue a company employing illegals for some kind of damages? But the lawyers would probably have thought of it if it would work.

5/16/2006 11:11:00 AM  
Blogger geoffgo said...


What else would expect from a champion of an anti-capitalist socialist?

5/16/2006 11:15:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Allen 5:50 AM
Bush has made his bed and enabled demagogues on this issue by abandoning all meaningful enforcement along with the level of dishonesty and demagoguery of his own rhetoric.
I hold him and the Republican Senate responsible.
All the Dems had to do was stay silent and watch them plan policies that would eventuate in a permanent underclass, as well as a permanent Democrat Majority nationwide as it has already become in California.
Now the demagoguery has been joined full voice by the dems.
The GOP House is our only hope at this time:
A GOP Senate has constructed a Democrat-friendly group to represent them in the conference committee! E
ncourage your representatives to stand firm!

5:43 AM John Samford said...
"3,000 KM's long. We could use convicts for labor and help the crime rate also. Instead of 3 squares and color TV, prison would mean a cot and 16 hours of moving dirt by shovel. See how the boys in the 'hood go for that."
Sheriff Joe Arpaio has female prisoner work gangs! 120 degree heat.
Pink Panties for the boys, tents to live in in the heat, and he has done it for THIRTEEN YEARS!
...I guess it's not illegal yet.
It was ONLY after the barrier was proven to work that talk started on it becoming the de-facto border of Israel.
THAT's the main reason they don't want to build it.
As in Israel, it would IMMEDIATELY prove it's worth.
Not Acceptable to those in power.

5/16/2006 12:40:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

NRO Editorial - Amnesty Undeniable
In his Oval Office address, the president squandered what was probably his last chance to reconnect with conservatives on immigration.

They will undoubtedly note that the president has waited six years to start talking about enforcement, and will accordingly ask why he can’t postpone his amnesty long enough to give enforcement at try?

A speech that had reiterated his support for amnesty in theory, but conceded that enforcement had to come first, would likely have won significant public approval and helped shape events in Congress.
The speech he actually gave, on the other hand, is likely further to demoralize conservatives and harden opposition among House Republicans to the Senate amnesty proposal.
President Bush’s speech, contrary to its goal, probably ensures that no immigration bill will reach his desk this year. Given the options, that’s probably a good thing.

5/16/2006 01:52:00 PM  
Blogger The Wrath said...

"Why not introduce court-proof, English-only legislation that would return our federal documents to one language? "

Hi Doug,

I like the general thrust of your ideas-- I'm just skeptical about this particular "assimilationist" approach in general. I'm admittedly biased from my own experience, but in my old neighborhood around Chicago, if anything the worst and most destructive immigrants were the English-speakers from some Caribbean countries. In general, they spoke decent English, but they were involved in many of the very worst gangs in the city, and were among the most aggressive. In fact, if anything their English-speaking ability made them even more prone to go out and attack wealthy whites around them-- a common language between mugger and muggee can be quite useful! Also, the English-speaking immigrants contributed just as much to the ridiculous overcrowding, the horrid traffic, the general lack of civility, the litter, the dirt, the filth, and the anti-White hatred that I encountered in the city and which prompted me to leave the state. We just have too many people in the US as it is, with our standard of living, and the best solution is to stop the inflows at the source.

I guess in a sense, I've just come to sense that language is the least important of the cultural attributes that bind us together. Again, those English-speaking immigrants were among the worst, and there were English-speaking African-Americans who had high crime and unemployment rates and could not in any way be considered assimilated. I'm especially infuriated by that subset of so-called immigration "reformers" who argue that we could invite half the Third World into the USA, so long as they learn English. They're basically open-borders advocates who try to pretend otherwise, and they're clueless about the many ways in which massive Third World immigration damages us, as I noted above.

Again, I'm just extremely pessimistic that any amount of feel-good assimilationist rhetoric are policies would mitigate our fundamental problems. The gang and crime problems in high-immigration locales are very real, and the crowding, squalor, and pollution are as horrendous or even more so in the English-speaking neighborhoods as in the ones where English isn't spoken at all.

The only solution is to halt the massive immigration inflows in the first place. Note that halting the supposedly "legal" inflows is just as important as the illegal ones. We're taking in 1.45 million legal immigrants every year, so many that Caucasians in the USA will be a minority within no more than 15-20 years as it is. We just have unsustainable policies and they have to be changed. People on other blogs are talking about how there's a mass wave of emigration of Caucasian professionals from the US to a handful of European countries that seem to have stricter immigration policies and to have no hesitation at promoting their Western heritage. For all the blather about how supposedly warm and fuzzy the US would be at a point with Caucasians in the minority, those of us who've dwelt in high-immigration places know that's not remotely true. We're relocating elsewhere-- it's a sort of revenge against the politicians and the vested interests who screw us like this and take us for granted.

5/16/2006 04:52:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Sheriff Joe, doug, is in the position of running Law Enforcement in a county larger than some eastern States.

The tents, he'll have 'em as long as he is Sheriff, which is about how ever long he wants to.

Work Gangs are ever present cleaning County property, often vacent land or highway medians.

Those work gangs have had a tremedous impact on my teenaged nephews. They have no desire to "join" them. It has moderated their behaviour, to be sure.

5/16/2006 06:30:00 PM  
Blogger ledger said...

Although I have read this site, I have refrained from making comments due to each thread turning into an "illegal immigration" tread. Since this is a illegal immigration thread I will just put in my 2 cents.

1) As Wretchard has noted "the devil is in the details" and Bush did not address said details (which may have been a politically smart idea).

2) The illegal immigration problem is big and does factor into the security equation. Hence, it must be addressed and quickly.

3) As Dymphna has stated "All I want is parity" which is a good idea. I have done a small amount of immigration consulting for visas to and from certain countries, the US does use the parity technique - but in other cases it doesn't. I think the parity method should be used broadly (including Mexican citizens).

4) As most of you know the real reason their is a large number of illegal aliens is there is no true mechanism to quickly deport those who are here illegally. There is not one. What is in place has been blunted (clearly certain cities in SoCal simply refused to follow the immigration laws). Those blunting it have an agenda. All the illegals know that. They work the system to their advantage. There must be a mechanism to deport said illegals on a timely basis and a mechanism to sanction said government officials who do not enforce the immigration laws.

5) Documentation of illegals is a huge problem. I agree with Bush's idea that there should be some biometric method of documenting these people - without it we simply cannot determine who is here legally and who is not. Those people involved in false documentation should be penalized. The documentation problem reaches all the way to the Federal Government. It's well known that Social Security Administration collects taxes on SSI numbers that are phony or are currently being used by an honest citizen (that money is in the billions each year - some estimate as high as $400 billion per year). The Social Security Administration must sort out the good numbers from the bad - and come clean with all Americans (no more hiding the fact that two individual are paying taxes with one social security number).

Further alien criminals should be weeded out of the system (it's to the point where a criminal from an other country can enter the American work force just as easy a non-criminal Americans. That a travesty. Correct documentation is a must.

7). The fact that an illegal women has a child on American soil should not automatically make that child a citizen. This leads to a huge social cost to Americans. This must be reversed.

8). I agree with Bush that everyone who wants to live in America should learn to speak English. English is the bond that holds America together. It's a big challenge but it can be done (even if it means setting up English language schools in Mexico). Compounding the problem is certain local government agencies and many large companies open encourage using non-English languages. I you go fill out a government application often you will see at least two sets of languages use on said documents. This dramatically increases the work load when reading said documents. This also extends to major corporations (An application may be in two or more languages). This just encourages more non-English speakers to simply never plan to speak English. American schools have to teach classes in non-English languages and huge pool of non-English immigrants cluster in one location. The non-English language on official documents must be corrected.

8) Although, I am somewhat skeptical about Bush's "guest worker program" if it is implemented all "said guest workers" should be evenly distributed among all of states. Some states such as Texas and California which have generous social program and pleasant climates that attract illegal (or soon to be guest workers) the situation has balloon to huge proportions (and in California's case have practically bankrupted it). These states bear the social costs of said illegal (from crime to traffic congestion; to expensive social programs). These states have become "Majority Minority" states (the majority of the population consists of minorities). The end result is dissipation of American resources and confusion.

I would suggest that if a "guest worker program" is put into place that it evenly distribute said "guest workers" among all of the states. This would dampen the "clustering" effect of illegals, increase the proportion of those guest workers who learn English, and provide an even geographic social load on the system.

5/16/2006 06:42:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Divide Remains as Bush Pushes Immigration Plan
Mr. Bush plans to travel to Arizona on Thursday to speak again about the issue, which he has now made a test of his political authority and one of the defining domestic initiatives of his second term.

House conservatives said they saw little chance to reconcile the emerging Senate legislation and the House bill.

"It is a nonstarter with the American people, and the Republican Party will pay the price at the polls," said Representative Dana Rohrabacher, Republican of California.

Mr. Rohrabacher said that some fellow conservatives had found the president's address condescending and that the remarks "hinted at maliciousness on the part of those who are adamant that illegal immigration is bad for the country."

"If this bill comes out with no major amendments, then I think we are in a true train wreck with the House," said Senator Saxby Chambliss, Republican of Georgia.
Mr. Bush and White House officials were emphatic Tuesday that the president would not approve legislation that did not include a guest worker provision and the "path to citizenship" that he outlined on Monday night. "I said I want a comprehensive bill," Mr. Bush said when a reporter began asking him whether he could abide by separate bills.

White House officials said Mr. Cheney, who has deep ties to House Republicans and remains influential among conservatives, would begin to play a larger role in the debate.
In his interview with the vice president, Mr. Limbaugh highlighted studies asserting that guest worker provisions would expand the number of foreign-born citizens by tens of millions.
"Well, if that's the case," Mr. Cheney said, "I would hope that would inform the debate and that Congress will consider those kinds of impacts very carefully before they finally pass something. We'll certainly weigh in on it."

5/16/2006 07:52:00 PM  
Blogger allen said...

What we have here is a failure to communicate. At least that is my opinion, informed by Mexican official Julieta Nunez Gonzalez, who says, “Sending the National Guard ‘will not stop the flow of migrants, to the contrary, it will probably go up.’"

See Riehl World View @ - “Mexico - Illegal Immigration Will Rise Under Bush Plan”

What does Mexico know? A good deal more than Mr. Bush and the Senate know or are willing to admit.

Are the Canadians paying attention? They should. In another decade, this great migration will spill over the northern border.

Talking about self-absorbed special interests, I was unaware of an albinos’ guild. See
/2006/05/16/D8HL2T580.html - “Albinos Condemn 'Da Vinci' Assassin”

I hope the aliens abductors hurry back. Get me outta here!

5/16/2006 08:05:00 PM  
Blogger John Samford said...

"7). The fact that an illegal women has a child on American soil should not automatically make that child a citizen. This leads to a huge social cost to Americans. This must be reversed."

I don't think this is correct. I know that back in the 50's being born on American soil ment you were an American citizen, no matter what citizenship your parents held. That could have been changed without me being CC'd.
Remember the Citizenship/Immigration laws get reworked every 20 years or so. Whenever some ethnic group falls under the public spotlight. Germans, Chinese, Irish, Vietnamese. Every generation another flavor gets added to the melting pot. I'm not worried about any of it. The Mexicans cannot possibly be as bad as the Irish were. Hells Kitchen, anyone?
As far as the 193 million FNG's, don't sweat it, there is lots of room left here in America. China and India are both smaller then the USA and have about 4 to 5 times our population. America can easily hold 1.5 billion people. We will be able to feed them and make jobs for them also. Does that 193 million include the Europeans who will be fleeing after the Muslims take over Europe? Or is that just the South Americans fleeing Socialism?
I'll bet a dollar to a doughnut that the same people who are upset over 12 million Mexicans won't bat an eyelash over 40 million WHITE europeans.
I havn't figured out yet if Congress gets it wrong every time, or if the goalposts keep moving.

5/16/2006 11:41:00 PM  

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