Thursday, July 14, 2005

The Return of the Ripper

The bodies of young women began to appear in Basra six weeks ago. First there was a group of three, then two, and last week the corpses of six were found, each victim riddled by gunshots and left on the street to die in pools of blood. The Iraqi police say they have no strong leads. But it is an open secret in the port city why they died.

They worked as prostitutes and their killers are widely believed to be one of the city's armed militias. In recent months they have become increasingly violent in their campaign to enforce a strict interpretation of the social code of Islam.

The Telegraph's described the local citizenry's reaction to the 21st century equivalent of Jack the Ripper's campaign of terror.

No one wanted to talk about the details of the murders. "I do not want to be killed," one man said. But another told how he had been in a house of "belly dancers" recently in order to drink alcohol - an illicit activity in Basra - when a dozen masked men broke down the front door. "They started hitting the girls and shooting against the walls and breaking the furniture," he said.  "They bought boxes of vodka and beer outside to smash them. One of the girls ran outside and she had stones thrown at her. "Everyone in the place was too frightened to help."

Then they described the British Army's. "The British, who are responsible for the security of the sector, have refused to intervene, saying that it is a domestic matter of political and law and order issues. Political parties have been largely silent." These murders are taking place in part of Iraq that has virtually been untouched by that fountain of all evil, American occupation and the insurgency. It underscores the importance of organizing resistance cells within the Islamic community to fight the internal oppressors of Islam, a point made in an earlier Belmont Club post. Unless people can be made willing to resist the murder of their daughters, they can hardly be expected to help the infidel escape his fate.

It is not enough, as the British Army has done, to look on at this mayhem from the outside in, blinded by the illusion that these executions are just one more quaint ethnic practice that the guilt-ridden West has no right to criticize; that it is one more expression of identity that one is obliged to tolerate, whether these sanguinary events happen in British-patrolled Basra or the British city of Leeds.The wellsprings of terrorism arise from certain tendencies within Islamic society itself; and unless the weeds are pruned the flowers will never grow, until we find ourselves alone at midnight in the Garden of Evil.

621 Comments:

Blogger neuroconservative said...

Neo-neocon has previously linked to this article about a different approach to multi-culturalism:

When General George Napier was governor of Sind province in India in the 1840s, he vigorously enforced the ban on suttee, the practice of throwing a Hindu widow on to the funeral pyre of her husband. A delegation of Brahmins came to him to explain that he must not prohibit the practice at the funeral of a particular maharaja, as it was an important cultural custom.

“If it is your custom to burn a widow alive, please go on,” Napier responded.

“We have a custom in our country that whoever burns a person alive shall be hanged. While you prepare the funeral pyre, my carpenters will be making the gallows to hang all of you. Let us all act according to our customs” The Brahmins thought better of it, and the widow lived.

7/14/2005 08:58:00 PM  
Blogger wretchard said...

The Dutch blog Zacht Ei has a link to a Douglas Adams story about a galactic race who were 'nice' in every respect, other than that they were unalterably opposed to the existence of any other races.



"The people of Krikkit," said His High Judgmental Supremacy,
Judiciary Pag, LIVR (the Learned, Impartial and Very Relaxed)
Chairman of the Board of Judges at the Krikkit War Crimes Trial,
"are, well, you know, they're just a bunch of real sweet guys,
you know, who just happen to want to kill everybody. Hell, I feel
the same way some mornings. Shit.

"OK," he continued, swinging his feet up on to the bench in front
of him and pausing a moment to pick a thread off his Ceremonial
Beach Loafers, "so you wouldn't necessarily want to share a
Galaxy with these guys."

This was true.

The Krikkit attack on the Galaxy had been stunning. Thousands and
thousands of huge Krikkit warships had leapt suddenly out of
hyperspace and simultaneously attacked thousands and thousands of
major worlds, first seizing vital material supplies for building
the next wave, and then calmly zapping those worlds out of
existence.

The Galaxy, which had been enjoying a period of unusual peace and
prosperity at the time, reeled like a man getting mugged in a
meadow.

7/14/2005 09:07:00 PM  
Blogger noprisoners said...

Neuroconservative,

What a great story! I had never heard it but, I love it.

Wretchard's idea about "resistance cells" is the best and most creative that I have heard in the entire span of the GWOT. How do we help implement this? Does it take money? How do we encourage the propagation of these cells from here? In other words, what can one, sitting comfortably in the U.S., do to make this work?

7/14/2005 09:07:00 PM  
Blogger wretchard said...

noprisoners,

First we should convince people that counterorganizing within Islamic communities is an idea which is at least worth thinking about. And why not? Radical Islam has planted thousands of cells within the West. Shall we not return the favor?

And if the concept is really a good one, there will be no shortage of guys who can think up ways to carry it out. First the idea, then the deed.

7/14/2005 09:10:00 PM  
Blogger neuroconservative said...

This article about the monster Mohammed Sadique Khan, who loved death more than his own babies, ends on a hopeful note:

At the local mosques yesterday, Khan - the oldest of the bombers - was condemned. A neighbour, Anaar Sajjad, a 19-year-old student at the nearby Islamic Institute in the Savile Town district, said: "The imams have told us that everything they have done is not Islamic. Simply being a Muslim does not make him Islamic. In Islam even animals have rights, so how can it be right to kill a human being?"

However, I'm not sure what we can do to support this, or even how to gauge its accuracy or generalizability.

7/14/2005 09:17:00 PM  
Blogger jakita said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

7/14/2005 09:28:00 PM  
Blogger jakita said...

OK, I'm going to express a verboten idea--but what the heck, I'm anonymous.

Today should be the beginning of the Age of the New Imperialism--or maybe, to be au courant--the Neo-Imperialist Era.

Why do we have to take all kinds of crap from people from non-Western cultures (referring to Judeo-Christian cultures, not whether they are geographically in the "West."

It's time to stand up and say to those who have barbaric values, "Stop what you're doing. Or, we'll make you stop."

I guess I'm a little annoyed at the jihadist atrocity in London. People should defend civilization, and not be so tolerant of barbaric customs.

7/14/2005 09:31:00 PM  
Blogger neuroconservative said...

This article is absolutely remarkable. If accurate, the four Labour MPs who are Muslim are to be commended for being unswerving in their condemnation of the bombers and their motivations. MP Shahid Malik, who represents the home district where police raids have been taking place, went so far as to say: “Condemnation is not enough...British Muslims must confront the voices of evil head on.”

And yet this message is compromised by non-Muslim Labourites:

John Denham, a former minister, warned that many Muslims felt socially alienated. A response was needed “not just from within the Muslim community, but from the majority community as a whole”.

And even within Number 10:

“We need to get across harder that we are establishing Muslim schools in this country,” says this aide [to Tony Blair]. “We need to get across that have given $3bn to the Palestinian Authority at Gleneagles last week."

More Muslim schools and more money for the PA? Now there's a strategy to combat terrorism!

7/14/2005 09:32:00 PM  
Blogger Aristides said...

Where are the feminists? Donna Hughes, a well-known women's rights professor from the University of Rhode Island, was on C-Span the other day, and what she said blew my mind. She said that she tried to contact feminist groups to join a chorus condemning the Iranian government for their abuses againt women, and the response she received was an adamant "NO". You want to know why?

Because that would vindicate the Bush Administration. That would grease the slippery slope to war with Iran. She was told to her face that the Leftist agenda of feminists, who live in the west and have everything, trumped the safety and humanity of women in the east, from whom everything has been taken away. "No, I'm sorry, I can't condemn rape, I can't bring attention to slavery. My goodness, that would help Bush!"

The Left, feminists ferchrissake, have forsaken the women in the Muslim world to eternal hell. Let their shame never be forgotten.

7/14/2005 10:12:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Aristides,
I posted an equally astounding quote that Wretchard found some time ago.
I'll see if I can find it.

7/14/2005 10:18:00 PM  
Blogger wretchard said...

I'd be willing to bet that some Muslim leaders see the oncoming train wreck and are, within the limits of their own political and social conditions, desperate for change. But the only thing in the Liberal institutional repertoire is to hand them money and an apology. Whether the solution fits the problem or not, that's what they're going to get from the Liberal establishment.

But what they really need are guys who are willing to provide them with moral and practical support in standing up to the thugs in the community. Hell I'd give any Muslim willing to stand up to these Jihadis safe houses, secure internet access, permits to carry. That'd even the odds some. But above all, you'd have to find guys willing to go semi-underground with them. It's not dissimilar to fighting the Mob. What are the tools there? Witness protection. Undercover operations. Busting up the breweries and speakeasies. Taking out the Mr. Bigs with whatever rap you can invent. There's a military aspect to fighting radical Islam, but there's also an counter-organizational dimension to it.

But before you can get to that point you have to brush past the Left, which has taken these characters not only under its wing but into its bosom.

7/14/2005 10:20:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Maybe
"Return of the Taliban"
would have been an ok title?
or
"Shia can be Taliban Too"
---
Shia Taliban Redux

7/14/2005 10:22:00 PM  
Blogger Wild Bill said...

We went to Iraq to rid it of vast stockpiles of WMD.. But no vast stockpiles.. We went to Iraq to rid the people of an oppresive regime.. Yet the killing of women and children continues.. What happened to the aim of democracy for the Iraqi people ?? Is this what they were talking about ?? Is this what the new Iraqi Constitution looks like ?? Do we now turn our back, lower our chins, leave and slink back to our respective countries?? And for what ?? To appease Sens. Kennedy, Boxer, Pelosi, Kerry, and Durbin ?? To trade the end of the war in Iraq, for the easy confirmation of the next next Supreme Justices ?? Or is this what the new leadership in Iraq wants there country to aspire to ?? My friends, is there just no way to lure these people into the modern world ?? This shit, like this, just makes me really want to rethink the whole idea of being an isolationist !!

7/14/2005 10:30:00 PM  
Blogger neuroconservative said...

Great points, Wretchard, but is it so easy to brush past the Left, when your program would raise more howls than Gitmo & Abu ghraib combined?

Also, I would like to invite you over to my latest post for a little thought experiment. I don't know that it provides any answers, but I personally am having a hard time figuring out how to deal with the Left.

7/14/2005 10:35:00 PM  
Blogger Aristides said...

This is not an isolated phenomenon. When Kwasi Mfume of the NAACP praises Castro while Black Cubans are violently oppressed, when Amnesty International shouts "gulag" over Gitmo while China's thugs brutalize their villagers, when the ACLU agitates for terrorist access to our courts while Nick Berg's head is being sawed off...

A disease festers in our society, and its appetite for destruction is growing even as our enemies sharpen their knives. What were once noble efforts have faltered and atrophied into malignancies that are spreading, and their cynicism and guilt threaten to pull the entire temple down on our heads.

7/14/2005 10:38:00 PM  
Blogger heather said...

From the beginning, in 1965, the "Feminists" have been Leftist/Marxist/Socialist and now Democrat/Labour waayyyy before they have been pro-woman. From there, it was easy to slipslide into 'revolutionary lesbianism', vegetarianism, and cushy jobs in government and universities. I agree, they are disgusting.

As to Wretchard's enthusiasm for - in effect - more communication, more debate, now possible via the Internet,etc: It is a mistake, I think, to project into the future what has happened in the past. As I have maintained, it is extremely difficult to leave the Tribal life to that of a Citizen Individual. However, don't forget, since the Industrial Revolution, people all over the world have demonstrated an amazing capacity for huge and rapid change (for good and for ill).

The hard core of the Arab/Muslim failure in the modern world is right in the heart of their family structure. Haven't you noticed that Islamists ALWAYS focus - with stones usually - on women's issues? This is why I am all for the French banning the headscarf - and other religious symbols - in their schools... And why the Coalition soldiers must take such events as Wretchard describes very seriously.

And much could be accomplished by entertainment/radio talk-ins/ television dramas... after WWII, in Japan, they had radios set up in parks, etc., and the most popular shows were personal advice programs.

This is not a frivolous. When I was at university, decades ago, a coffee shop was set up for awhile, by a married couple from Afghanistan. They called it the "Khyber Pass Cafe," saying that they had married each other DESPITE the fact that their tribes were enemies, and they wanted their coffee shop to symbolize their small attempt to bring peace into the valley (literally.)

A couple of years ago, before the War, I noticed - in the Iraq National Congress website - that people were identified - first - as members of particular "clans."

And cousin marriage is very common and held to be an ideal!!!

7/14/2005 10:54:00 PM  
Blogger Aristides said...

I do not understand how to organize a "counterinsurgency" that will eliminate the threat to the West, for even without terrorism we are dealing with an incompatible organizing principle in Arabism and in Islamism. The family is the microcosm of the society, and in the Arab world tyranny perculates through every level of society. Even if materialism and moderate Islam were to take over, the subjugation of women, rampant tribalism, and religious supremacy will remain dispositive in the overall strategic posture of the middle east. I have no proof whatsoever of this, other than instinct, but I think it will get a lot worse before it gets better. Our civilization will clash, and I am not sure if any part of their culture is salvageable.

To me, we will fight the good fight and hopefully maintain our idealistic illusions by dotting every "i" and crossing every "t", bending over backwards to try to fix them and help them and give them one more try, but in the end it will come to war. The most important thing is to keep our history linear and our self-perception abstract, because it is going to come, as it always has, to violent evolution. We have what it takes, and our rallying principles are the best there are; nevertheless, we must brace ourselves for the worst.

7/14/2005 10:55:00 PM  
Blogger Aristides said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

7/14/2005 10:56:00 PM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

Bounty hunters.

Like the Norwegian dude hired.

We could pay them via PayPal.

Track down and kill the killers.

Put me down for $25.00.

7/14/2005 10:57:00 PM  
Blogger heather said...

Nahncee, now there is an idea. Use Paypal to transfer funds.

I wonder if the Bad Guys have cottoned onto this yet?

Anyway, no more multicult. And plenty of loud disgust for 'cousin marriages' and arranged marriages too. And plenty of safe houses for Arab/Muslim women -with turrets and gun emplacements if necessary.

7/14/2005 11:01:00 PM  
Blogger wretchard said...

I don't think there's any magic bullet here. It's "no holds barred" wrestling. A lot has already been accomplished which is probably why we are debating an attack on London which in World War 2 would comprise a single days V2 or V1 casualties. The Navy's no longer parked in the Persian Gulf. The US no longer has a Cold War force, etc.

But, as others have pointed out, there's a heck of a way to go. But it's almost like what happens when you do a cancer biopsy. One discovery leads to another, and you wonder whether you'll ever get to the end of it. But the alternative was never to have looked. And that's what the Left would have wanted. Never to have looked.

The fact that we can discuss things in this degree of granularity means we've come a ways from the days of innocence. There is no way in which we are weaker today than we were on September 10, 2001. We just didn't realize how big the problem was. All through the 90s, those on watch pretended it was not there. But what you don't know can hurt you.

7/14/2005 11:13:00 PM  
Blogger deuceboy431 said...

As I have been lurking on this blog for the past few days, I am truly amazed by the incisive, unsparing, and really fearless analysis by the members of this group. Having recently enlisted in the Army Reserve and being assigned to a Civil Affairs unit, I am getting an invaluable education in the context within which I will have to operate when the time comes. Understanding, insight, resolve, and timely action are the keys to a successful outcome in the GWOT. How much more of a "force-multiplier" is one person with the right preparation to put the necessary pieces together than a $2 billion stealh bomber? One is completely ineffective without the critical, human element.

I'm still trying to absorb and integrate everything that I am reading here, and do not feel ready yet to make an intelligent contribution. I am perfectly content, for the time being, to continue in "Shut Up and Listen" mode! I am honored to have fallen in with such erudite, experienced company, and hope to do right by you all by distilling these lessons and helping to put the right ones into practice.

Thanks for all you are doing. It WILL make a difference....

Deuceboy

7/14/2005 11:30:00 PM  
Blogger Aristides said...

Ah yes, the measurement problem. The only way to know the state of a system is to test it, poke it, and observe the results. Before this, all conjectures on the properties of a particular system are probabilistic and (dare I say it) academic.

Wretchard is right. By going into the Middle East we have collapsed the wave function, have drawn out real data, and can begin to see patterns and properties that we would never have been able to guess. We have set up the laboratory, and we are going to school.

Perhaps I get pessimistic. Maybe there is hope for peace.

7/14/2005 11:32:00 PM  
Blogger sugar said...

Regarding counter insurgency cells, theres really no shortage of recruits in Iraq. There are Shia Revenge Brigades off all sorts that are itching to get payback in the Sunni Triangle. There are more organised militias like Wolf Brigade. With militias though, they tend to work along side the US and Iraqi military. How the military does counterinsurgency is not the same as the CIA. In Vietnam(under Phoenix), infiltrators were called Provincial Reconaiisance Units (PRU) and were trained to dress, walk , talk and think like the VC. The CIA actually also called them Counter Terror Teams (CTT) back in the day. Its a totally unconventional yet effective kind of counter warfare.

7/14/2005 11:37:00 PM  
Blogger ledger said...

It's does appear that Iraq is slipping somewhat from democracy back to the dark ages of hard core Islamic theocracy.

Certianly, some new methods must be implemented. The "resistance cell" is a good idea. As for ccw permit - don't most Iraqis have guns (and bombs)?

Now, as for prostitutes being killed, this gets into a sticky situation. If prostitution is illegal in Basra then protecting them may appear counter intuitive and illegal (I personally don't know if it is illegal). Further, we don't know the real story. I would guess prostitution does happen in Iraq (as in most parts of the world) but the smart prostitutes must have enforcers to help collect revenue from the occasional nonpaying customer. Also, these killers of prostitutes maybe trying to extort payment from them (the old protection racket - "see what could happen to you if you don't pay"). And, it not inconceivable that the Basra police are in on the game.

I say use Wretchard "resistance cells" for the most egregious crimes (car bombs and the like). But, use them carefully at the law enforcement level. Now, if the prostitute killing problem escalates then it would be time to use the "resistance cell" against the killers.

If any of you have better suggestion feel free to post them.

7/14/2005 11:38:00 PM  
Blogger deuceboy431 said...

'...we have set up the laboratory, and we are going to school!"

Aristide--does this mean that I will have to sit in the corner whenever I end up over there?

--DB

7/14/2005 11:38:00 PM  
Blogger Keith said...

So--British troops have to police Basra in accordance with the failed, rotten pc policies that have failed in Britain and elsewhere.
These orders came from their political masters and Blair has the blood of those women on his hands.I can't begin to imagine how the troops must feel, being spectators to atrocities.

7/14/2005 11:40:00 PM  
Blogger Aristides said...

Deuceboy: Thank you for your service. Civil Affairs just may be where the battle is won.

7/14/2005 11:41:00 PM  
Blogger Aristides said...

Sitting is for sissies.

7/14/2005 11:46:00 PM  
Blogger deuceboy431 said...

Aristides: The funny thing is that, when I signed up and picked my reserve unit, I had no idea what Civil Affairs was about. I've learned a lot since then, and will learn much, much more as my training progresses. But the more I learn, the more I think that you are absolutely right. The challenge is tremendous, but I am very thankful that I will end up in a position where maybe, just maybe, I will make a difference.

Anyway, it beats the hell out of gritting my teeth listening to the folks on the Berkeley end of the AQ-Berkeley axis prattle on.... I am going to look forward to returning to academia someday and tearing a few new assholes!

"Gotta revolution...."

--DB

7/14/2005 11:49:00 PM  
Blogger Aristides said...

Wretchard: In addition to being able to better define them, I was wondering if you have thought on the added benefit of us having the opportunity to better define ourselves.

Before OEF and OIF, our engagements in the Muslim world were ambiguous at best, even to us, and so they were freely defined by the enemy at his will. Desert Storm became Saddam's victory, Mogadishu, etc. However, if (when) Iraq is finished and we pull out, the argument that we are invaders and conquerers will butt up against a huge mountain of reality. As Seinfeld once said, "that's one pretty big matzah ball hanging out there."

With Al'Jazeera and Al'Arabiya taking the easy anti-American line, they have gained access to otherwise repressive and insular places, and the public, from what I've read, is hooked. Accordingly, they have put Iraq and the treacherous Americans on the front page. Up till now the coverage has been scathing, except for that one day, in January, when nobody could editorialize away the reality that was flooding through the screen. On that day the Arab world tuned in to see destruction, but saw the purple finger instead.

I don't know, I have been thinking that as Iraq gets better, the day to day stuff will fade, and the overall story line will sink in to the millions of viewers who watch these channels religiously. The regimes that embraced the anti-American satellite media will be stuck when that same media begins to show a hopeful and decent Iraq rising out of the ashes. In a sense, these outlets have become the Trojan Horse, with Truth stuck inside waiting until nightfall to sack the city. Now that these regimes have taken Al'Jazeera into their bosom, there is no turning back.

At the very least, the dissenting voices will have a ballast to hold on to as they set sail against the wind.

7/15/2005 12:13:00 AM  
Blogger Wild Bill said...

The violence on the "ladies" was a human rights violation.. We cannot in clear concsience deplor what the U.N. Piecekeepers are doing, and sit idly by and avoid taking action on this activity, which seems to be a regular occurrance now.. Give em an inch, and they'll take a mile.. If these vigilante want to dispense justice, then they should abide by a civil code to do it.. Execution without trial is murder.. The Taliban used these same restrictions and tactics to "win over" the people in Afghanistan..
The "West" wasnt won in a day, and Judge Roy Been seems to be unavailable, but lynch-mobs are not the answer for liberal actions.. If it were, I'd be all for it.. Deuce, I also want to thank you for being a Great American..

7/15/2005 12:14:00 AM  
Blogger Aristides said...

Ha, DB, if your going to talk like that in Academia, better bring the smelling salt.

7/15/2005 12:17:00 AM  
Blogger david bennett said...

The British commander in Basra made his countries position clear during the first uprising of Falluja. He stated that if significant protests erupted the British would leave. Their complaints on US counter insurgency techniques had been ignored for too long, they weren't going to pay the cost.

As you recall there were also mutterings in the US defence establishment as well as Iraqi officials. This led to a pullback of the Rush Limbaugh inspired occupaton which the Marine commander had proposed intending to implement counter insurgency techniques based on those used with some success in central Vietnam? Remember?

But we needed to revenge our contracters at the same time the brilliant planners in Bremer's office decided to crack down on Sadr.

I do not defend British inactivity. They have allowed a nasty theocracy to develop under their watch. Reports of over a thousand dead including Sunni. Rumors of major influence by Iranian agents. The Badr brigades fought with them in their war. Remember.

But we have ignored British suggestions, we always knew better. They prefer it peaceful and we probably do as well. This region lies around crucial logistics lines. An insurgency could cripple our main body of troops.

British controlled sectors are not the only place abominations are happening. Theocracies are common in the south. In Baghdad stricter and stricter rules are enforced in the Sunni areas. Sadr city seems liberal in comparison. Barbers are not yet killed for shaving beards. All over the country Christians have had their busines confiscated and many have fled.

In times of stress people do flee to religion and the religious parties are the most efficiently and brutally organized. They have the same discipline and ruthlessness that allowed communists to take over revolutionary movements.

We ourselves don't intervene with the intense crime in many of our areas. We did not stop the kidnapping of doctors which has driven perhaps a quarter (especially the best) out of practice. We did not concern ourselves with the kidnapping of many others including high school girls in many neighborhoods. The society has been a crime pit since it was set free. This has coexisted and evolved with many political parties including the insurgents who get much of their money from mafia activities.

Again if you read the MSM you would know that if an Iraqi stays in their jobs for more than a fw months in the Green zone they are distrusted because people wonder why they haven't quit after the ritual warnings (they use a few set phrases) or been killed. Yes Basra is a mess, so are lots of other places.

You've focused on the theatrics of the insurgency not the more powerful forces playing below the surface. And it is not that it has not had bits and pieces documented, laid out by the press in plain sight.

It's simply that you believed that fan mail portraying you as some myterious character from a spy novel sipping daiquiris with a beautiful woman in some exotic locaton seeing all through magic intuition ... not through the old fashioned grunge of gatheting out relevant facts, organizing them and amalyzing them using the techniques of Sherman Kent.

And yes your approach is brilliant to the Rush Limbaugh school of strategic planning. If you don't look at facts you can always be right.

7/15/2005 12:22:00 AM  
Blogger Aristides said...

Congratulations, David, you've racked up three points for your deft use of all those clever (and topical!) buzz words that Leftists so love to hear!

Rush Limbaugh, Vietnam, and Christians?! Damn, you're really cookin'.

"If you don't look at facts you can always be right."

Well, I guess so!

7/15/2005 12:34:00 AM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

What's going on in Basra beats me! Over in theocratic Iran prostitution is prohibited but reports say it is rampant and the Revolutionary Guard only does prefunctory beatings these days, or extorts money or trim...

Why the "Noble Purple-Finger Stained Iraqis" down in Basra don't check the zealot militia killing local whores, I don't know...

But if I was a British commander, I would not risk a single life of my men on a matter of criminal or civil law. Basra is long since been under stable Iraqi administration and no active insurgency. It's the Iraqi's problem.

Got to hand it to the Brits. Smart. I imagine them in war planning ----"OK, your Yank neocons say it will be a cakewalk, Gen Franks, so we Brits will stay and do the dirty work of cleaning up the Basra area mess while you guys get to go to Baghdad and the Sunni triangle, find the vast stockpiles of WMD, and be welcomed as liberators, and get all the glory. Drat the luck! But we Brits just lack the magnificent logistics at your disposal, Gen Franks, as you make your historic fast, long distance land thrust - so down South we must stay.."

**************

On the topic of feminists bitching about Muslim subjugation of women, honor killings, genital mutilation, refusal to let women attend school or take jobs, deny them birth control, freely beat them, and treat them as chattel breeders.......

You expect them to???

The "founding feminists" are the daughters and grandaughters of the swine that started the American Communist Party, National Lawyers Guild, NYC Anarchists, etc. Freidan was a Commie herself when she was younger. They are hard Left, run their little NOW or whatever branches as personal Stalinist satrapies & associate with the Left Wing of the Democratic Party, and just lean a little more lesbian than the average Lefty.

They already made a hypocritical joke of themselves by earlier falling on their swords defending Clinton's sexual peccadillos.

Come to think of it, they were a joke or fast becoming a complete joke even before Clinton..

They don't even denounce stoning women who get stoned to death for adultury while the man walks..As long as being pro-Muslim means being against Bush and the evil Republicans - they will give the Muslims their idealogical solidarity - whatever that is worth.

The only place they have influence left is in gender-apportioned government workplaces, academia, and in moronic Scandinavian countries where the slot of candidates offered for election is mandated to be evenly split between men and women..

7/15/2005 12:48:00 AM  
Blogger Aristides said...

Hey, it's a great time to be a woman from the West! Check out the agenda for NOW's big feminist conference, which took place recently in my city of Nashville:

"It's that time again—feminist activists from around the country will gather in Nashville, Tenn., for the 2005 National NOW Conference the weekend of July 1-3. Home of the Grand Old Opry and the Country Music Hall of Fame, Nashville is a rollicking good place for NOW to convene.

Fun aside, important business is on the conference agenda. Participants will concentrate on strategy and skill-building to counter George W. Bush and his right-wing cronies, including a focus on electoral organizing at the NOW PAC Political Institute. The NOW PAC will also hold a silent auction to benefit election-organizing work, with lots of valuable feminist paraphernalia up for grabs."

Surely they will protest the abuse of women in Muslim societies, the gang rapes and honor killings that claim the lives of so many girls in the repressive countries. Even if only to feed the lizard?

Nope. Not one speaker, the entire weekend, spoke on the abuse of women under Islamist law or in Muslim communities. Here is a list of what they did talk about:

1. commitment to ending racism in reproductive rights.

2. Award presented to Tillie Black Bear from South Dakota, presumably for surviving her name.

3. organizing a "number of pivotal strikes and boycotts."

4. celebrating their attack on the "good old boys club" that keeps places like the Augusta National Golf Club closed to women.

And it just keeps going. More like a victory parade for things past than any agenda for women's futures.

I lied, they did touch on the repression of women in religious societies. Courageously, they had a signing of the book "God's Brothel," which reveals the gruesome facts about Bible-based polygamy in North America.

If they had anything about Iran, or Pakistan, or even the British Muslim honor killings, I couldn't find it. I guess their time was too filled up with slapping each other on the back. At least they made it.

7/15/2005 12:57:00 AM  
Blogger Anointiata Delenda Est said...

Aristides

"Even if materialism and moderate Islam were to take over, the subjugation of women, rampant tribalism, and religious supremacy will remain dispositive in the overall strategic posture of the middle east."

You are right, because a region's religion is derived from the region's culture.

That is why we must wreck the culture.

So there are other weapons in addition to military force - much as I welcome military force.

One of the weapons that should be in our arsenal - propoganda - is sadly under the control of the Left via the MSM. Another of our weapons - feminism - is under the control of the sisters (as your later post makes clear).

How sad that the strategy of creating cells is already alive and well, and aimed at us.

It is interesting that sweets from US soldiers, a cultural weapon, was seen as such by the Islamists.

Here's a serious suggestion: free Fender Stratocasters and Marshall amps for all Iraqi youth.

ADE

7/15/2005 01:19:00 AM  
Blogger miklos rosza said...

The following has to do with sex and Islam and I included it in a letter to Wretchard a year ago or so. It seems as relevant now as then.

My belief is that the biggest problem the males of Islam face when trying to adjust to Western, secular society is the woman question. This is where so much of the heat comes from which breeds hostility and violence.

And let's face it: the innovations wrought by feminism are imperfect and still evolving. It's only been 30-some years since all of this hit the fan in Europe and the USA.

Look at the divorce rate, how few children we're having now outside of religious families, the explosion of pornography and thus, one must believe, masturbation as opposed to male-female oldstyle orgasms, the high visibility of homosexuals and lesbians (threatening to those to whom it is strange), plus the cult of youthful external sexual attractiveness as exemplified by women with breast implants, etc, whom one is exposed to in a near-constant barrage of low level sexual stimulation in all of the media.

Now imagine that you are growing up in an Islamic country where the women are veiled, their arms and legs covered. Imagine how inflamed you may become merely by watching Western cable TV.

You have no access to this world other than on a lowly level. Meanwhile you have very little access to Muslim females (other than whores, who only feed your frustration and contempt.)

And teenage boys EVERYWHERE want to shock and frighten everyone and are most subject to the lure of suicide.

A personal note: I lived in Morocco for a while in the 1980s. Maybe I am weak-willed and easily led, but it was astonishing to me how quickly the European women who undressed until basically naked in order to sunburn themselves on the beach struck me as so vulgar and crude that I was immune to whatever attraction they might have possessed. I had contempt for them -- and for the men accompanying them.

In contrast, the eyes, the voice, the ankle-chain of a modern but modest woman wearing a veil (not the heavy chador) was elegant and appealing.

Moroccan men asked me, time and again, after we had discussed issues of the day: "How can you let your women appear naked in pornography?" They were obsessed by this.

What seemed like no big deal to me remained a matter of intense interest to them. I could not give them a satisfactory answer.

I could feel how weak they saw Western men because we have allowed, as they see it, all these sexual things to become out of control.

It's interesting that when the civil war in Beirut was raging, dead bodies were almost always found beheaded and castrated, with the dead man's genital then stuffed into his own mouth.

Does this not literalize and emphasize in an ugly fashion the idea that power is phallic? If this belief underlies the Arab worldview, then how must they see feminism and what they must view as feminized (yet artficially powerful) Western men?

And how threatened must they not feel by our attempts to change them into us?

They may look at it as: someone's gonna get castrated. Who's it gonna be?

7/15/2005 02:13:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

deuceboy431,
I'm sure your experience will serve you well when you return, if you still want to be a HS Bio Teacher.
Thank you for your service!

7/15/2005 02:15:00 AM  
Blogger Peter UK said...

This has to be seen in the context of military procedures learnt in Northern Ireland.
The Blair Government decided on a Peace Process which was purely window dresssing,all the paramilitary groups were to be allowed fre rein to control their turfs,in return there would be now attacks on mainland Britain or troops in Northeren Ireland.Essentially ,nothing that would make the front pages of the newspapers.
All else could be either kicked down the road or treated as a law and order issue.
The troops cannot be blamed,why should they put their lives on the line when their Government will put them on trial for war crimes,imprison them or ruin their careers.Blair has made the slightest misjudgement under combat conditions subject to the International law.The same Government which is gutting military resources,whilst at the same time committing more troops to conflicts which have little to do with Britains security.

7/15/2005 02:36:00 AM  
Blogger miklos rosza said...

And the IRA (d)evolved into a mafia, which also kept order in the community in its own way. A common thief might be kneecapped, for example.

Perhaps this is not too far from what will happen with the deadenders and kidnappers of Iraq.

7/15/2005 02:44:00 AM  
Blogger Saur♥Kraut said...

Neoconservative, excellent illustration.

What a creepy story, though.

7/15/2005 02:58:00 AM  
Blogger Saur♥Kraut said...

My apologies to Neuroconservative. I misspelled his handle.

7/15/2005 03:01:00 AM  
Blogger Anointiata Delenda Est said...

Miklos R

You are right about the sexual problems of Arabic culture. It is well to the centre of their cultural adjustment problem.

But it too is a symptom - of the Father/Son relationship, which is the Arabs' ultimate problem. Look into that sometime, and you've explained the Holy Trinity of Christian culture. The blogs aren't big enough for that one.

As for the IRA to Mafia progression = Islamothugs to Mafia progression: inevitable.

ADE

7/15/2005 03:24:00 AM  
Blogger Peter UK said...

That should say "No new attacks"

7/15/2005 03:28:00 AM  
Blogger Cutler said...

"Regarding counter insurgency cells, theres really no shortage of recruits in Iraq. There are Shia Revenge Brigades off all sorts that are itching to get payback in the Sunni Triangle. There are more organised militias like Wolf Brigade. With militias though, they tend to work along side the US and Iraqi military. How the military does counterinsurgency is not the same as the CIA. In Vietnam(under Phoenix), infiltrators were called Provincial Reconaiisance Units (PRU) and were trained to dress, walk , talk and think like the VC. The CIA actually also called them Counter Terror Teams (CTT) back in the day. Its a totally unconventional yet effective kind of counter warfare."

The British also did this in Malaysia and Kenya, especially the former. They'd focus on turning insurgents, particularly through good treatment and brainwashing in prison, then creating their own counter-insurgency gangs to tear it apart from the inside. They obviously walked and talked like the enemy, but worked for a different master. The problem is of course with 24/7 news coverage and moralistic warfare [that only we're expected to fight], I doubt we're prepared to handle the bad press. Operation Pheonix is still a dirty word in political discourse, perhaps for good reasons considering its excesses - but not for a lack of effectiveness.

7/15/2005 05:41:00 AM  
Blogger Monty said...

To be fair, this type of thing is hardly unique to Muslim societies. Many Christian African societies also stone and kill prostitutes for "immorality". During the Middle Ages it was quite common for prostitutes to be used as scapegoats for all manner of crimes (since they had no one to vouch for them), and they would be sent to the gallows. And let us not forget that Saucy Jack did his awful work in London during the reign of Queen Victoria, and the general feeling was one more of prurient interest than sadness for the victims.

And America has seen its own "moral avengers" in the past -- the Green River killer preyed on prostitutes, as did innumerable other serial killers. Aileen Wuornos was herself a prostitute.

Prostitution is a dangerous business in any corner of the world; I doubt it's much different in Iraq. The austerity of the Muslim faith and the tribal shame/honor culture probably lend a particularly bitter character to these murders, but I believe it's a police matter, not a military one.

We need to keep our eye on the ball. Liberalism will eventually arrive in the wake of a more open society, but it will not come immediately.

7/15/2005 05:45:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Iraq is more and more a police problem. Some of the criminality may be traced to our Occupation, but not much of it.
The culture of the country does not lend itself to our policing it.
Cops on the street need more than one or two phrases of the language to be effective.
It is their country, give it back to them. It will never be Des Moines.

7/15/2005 05:55:00 AM  
Blogger Zeno said...

It really makes me sad that the British see this things and do nothing. Then again, they see similar things in their own backyard (Leeds, Finsbury Park) and don't do much either.

7/15/2005 05:56:00 AM  
Blogger Cardozo Bozo said...

Wretchard,

Public opinion in Iraq is increasingly against the terrorists and the Bathist remnants, even in Sunni areas. That is largely because the Iraqis have seen the terror they bring, and felt it within their homes. For too long Arabs have lived with their "fantasy ideology", but faced with the reality of Islamic terror, they are waking up to reality. They are waking up to the need for law & order.

Perhaps the best thing the Brits can do in Basra, in the long term, is hold back. As long as there aren't any Mini-Saddam's set to take over and upset the nascent democracy in the region, some shock therapy may be called for.

Many Americans believe that Europeans also live in a fantasy-land, where supra-national peace can be had without supra-national military force. The Europeans were never trusted with the opportunity to forge a peace on their own (perhaps rightly, considering their track record). Fifty years later we continue to reap the whirlwind on that one. Maybe we shouldn't make the same mistake with the Arabs. We can't run their countries indefinately. They're going to have to learn how to do it, but first they must learn WHY it must be done.

7/15/2005 06:17:00 AM  
Blogger erp said...

These guy are morally pure. No prostitutes allowed, instead Islam encourages rape. Any and all females are fair game. Less espensive that way too.

Females who are raped are then discarded because it's their own fault for being so alluring in their black shrouds. Main premise -- men are never responsible for their actions.

Flip Wilson was ahead of his time when he said, the devil made him do it. Only now, the devils are the perps.

7/15/2005 06:21:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

An interesting article in the NY Times.
John Deutch, deputy secretary of defense from 1994 to 1995 and director of central intelligence from 1995 to 1996, writes
"...We should not shirk from quick military action for the purpose of saving lives that are in immediate danger. For example, the decision not to intervene early to prevent mass murder in Rwanda was a major failure. But we should not be lured into intervention that has as its driving purpose the replacement of despotic regimes with systems of government more like our own. It is not that the purpose is unworthy, but rather that it is unlikely to succeed.

Moreover, in trying to achieve regime change or nation-building, we tend to rely on military force rather than diplomacy, trade and economic assistance. The American military, the best in the world, is built to fight and win wars; we can ask the Marine Corps to defeat Republican Guard divisions or destroy rebel strongholds in Falluja, but maintaining local security, brokering political alliances and running local water systems, hospitals, power plants and schools are not major parts of its mission or training. Reshaping our military to take on the activities that the Pentagon euphemistically calls "stability and security" operations will come at a cost - both in terms of potentially compromising the war-fighting capacity of our troops and in diverting the resources needed to support the civic action that underlies nation-building. ..."

And as I fore told months ago he calls for

"...Our best strategy now is a prompt withdrawal plan consisting of clearly defined political, military and economic elements. Politically, the United States should declare its intention to remove its troops and urge the Iraqi government and its neighbors to recognize the common regional interest in allowing Iraq to evolve peacefully and without external intervention. The first Iraqi election under the permanent constitution, planned for Dec. 15, is an appropriate date for beginning the pullout. ..."

7/15/2005 06:36:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

And even I support Senator Levin's call for the creation of Standards that we and the Iraqis need to meet.
Creating a matrix for Victory.
This campaign will be successful with the General Public.
Defined Victory
Victory will be enough to swing the middle, and that is all that is needed. Bush will find it difficult to tell US that the Military and his Admin have failed, when his opponents claim he has succeeded

7/15/2005 06:46:00 AM  
Blogger RWE said...

Once agian, more evidence of people who say "Help us, but don't change our culture."
Uh-Huh. That is like saying "Get me back on the road but don't fix my flat tire."
Note that this same phenomenoa is seen in the U.S. Various cultures have to be propped up with massive welfare payments, abortion clinics, free medical care, gun control laws, etc, but must remain precious in every way and thus inviolate.
Jakita: You have come to an obvious conclusion. Clearly, the answer to many countries problems is re-colonization. This is not only un-pc but very frightening to many. After all, who would want to take over and run France and Germany?

7/15/2005 06:53:00 AM  
Blogger Charles said...

If you want to get an idea how completely betrayed and sold into slavery the American people are the by the US government, here's an article on in today's washington times about how the Senate shuns attempt to add agents on the US borders.

If you want to get an idea of how the American people feel about it---here's another front Page article from today's washington times that says "15,000 volunteers will man observation posts and conduct foot and horseback patrols this fall along the Mexican border from Texas to California and in seven states along the Canadian border in a new Minuteman vigil to protest what organizers call the government's lax immigration enforcement policies. "

7/15/2005 06:56:00 AM  
Blogger erp said...

Feminists, like the rest of the movements that make up the left, have as their goal the destruction of democracy, freedom, free trade and capitalism.

7/15/2005 07:04:00 AM  
Blogger Common Cents said...

“We need to get across harder that we are establishing Muslim schools in this country,” says this aide [to Tony Blair]. “We need to get across that have given $3bn to the Palestinian Authority at Gleneagles last week."

These actions by Blair would only encourage terrorism. They will be viewed as payment of tribute.

7/15/2005 07:11:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

However, if we do not maintain a base--a fortress--in the western desert, near the Hashemites (who predate the scism and are thus acceptable in Sunni & Shia both) but in the Iraq--a base for which we've already paid in the historical and universal currency of blood sacrifice--we'll have passed up the greatest peacemaking, world-war preventing, life-saving opportunity of all time.

So look for the usual suspects to be hard agin' it. Everybody from our DC Demcoats to our surface-skittering slogan-voters to old Mr. Beezlebub hisself.

7/15/2005 07:24:00 AM  
Blogger Papa Bear said...

wild bill notes : We went to Iraq to rid the people of an oppresive regime.. Yet the killing of women and children continues.. What happened to the aim of democracy for the Iraqi people ??

We do not have a democracy in the United States, and I hope we never will. What we have instead is a Constitutional Republic

What's the difference? In a Democracy, if 50% + 1 of the people vote to have the other half of the population burned at the stake, that that's it. The "voice of the people" has spoken, and democracy demands that it be carried out.

In a Constitutional Republic, people have certain rights which may not be infringed by a mere majority. In the United States, they have the right to be armed, so that they may defend their rights, their lives, and their property even if the official authorities decide they would "rather not get involved" because it's a "political issue"

Our primary objective should not be to spread mere "democracy", but a constitutional structure, and the culture which upholds it, so as to provide a safe environment where one can live, work, and raise a family without fear of having it all destroyed through violence.

The way to build a stable country is through families, neighborhoods, communities and societies. A family which lives in a community where everybody has a degree of consensus about what is tolerable and what is intolerable, and which retains the ability and the will to defend itself and its members against the violence of intruders, will be a stable community. A family which does not live in such a community would have an incentive to move to one where they would be comfortable.

Iraqis who want to live under conditions of strict Sharia law should be able to form such communities. Iraqis who want to have an occasional beer should be able to form non-Sharia communities, and defend their communities against masked thugs that may appear

7/15/2005 07:26:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Sorry--I was speaking to the John Deutch essay, quoted by rat, above.

7/15/2005 07:27:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

They are calling for a complete withdrawel. Bushes position will be for the bases and a stay behind/ forward deployed force.
Bush & Company should prevail, but his time will be about up by then. Next round won't happen until after '08, if ever.
Assuming no major US Terror Incident

7/15/2005 07:31:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

ot but part of an old thread

Just heard on Fox News of a northeastern cable company, a regional distribution net, that is requesting blogger video. Off the street reporting, commentator lady is afraid that 'normal' people from 'off the street' could commentate.
How quaint

7/15/2005 07:53:00 AM  
Blogger exhelodrvr said...

A lot of the posters here, and to some extent Wretchard, need to remember the ultimate goal of our invasion of Iraq. The ultimate goal is not to bring democracy to Iraq/the MidEast, or to reform Muslim societies. The ultimate goal is the security of the United States and United States' interests. Bringing democracy to Iraq/the MidEast is seen as the best longterm means to achieve that end. We need to keep our eyes focused on that goal. That means that we should not interfere in every aspect of their society that we don't approve of, as distasteful as they might be, whether that be pledging 10 year old girls in marriage, or these types of actions.

7/15/2005 08:22:00 AM  
Blogger Annoy Mouse said...

In the Garden of Evil, Baby
It is ironic that the goals of al Zarquawi and Coalition Forces may be merging into equal and opposite directions. Al Qaeda in Iraq, according to an intercepted message, is trying to drive a wedge between pro-coalition Shiites and Bathist Sunnis. Calls for instigating anti-fundamentalist counterinsurgency cells completes the square. As much as I agree with this methodology, I cannot help but be aware that al Zaquawi’s attempt to foment civil war may be the very key to his downfall.

Whether the British command considers vigilante acts against “sinners” to be just or otherwise, some civil authority must condemn the methods of terror that are being used. No more would civil authorities in Britain or the United States allow acts of vigilantism against Moslems, than they should be allowed to repress or radicalize civilians in a war zone.

7/15/2005 08:43:00 AM  
Blogger Dymphna said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

7/15/2005 09:26:00 AM  
Blogger david bennett said...

Here is one example of why British cooperation has dimnished, an example which has just become quite relevant:

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/219869p-188947c.html

Note the anger British and Pakistani authorities expressed as their mole is publicly exposed by Tom Ridge for political purposes, note the fear that "The network is still not finished," Hayyat said. It "remains a potent threat to Pakistan, and to civilized humanity."

"It makes our job harder," a British security...


Now note the rumors coming out of London that the recent bombings were tied to this network.

There is such a thing as fundamental tradecraft in fighting terrorism. It was recently violated again when Washington leaked the claim that some Italian intelligence official had approved the snatching to Egypt *despite* the promise that if the snatch became public the parties involved would remain silent.

The peole here felt this was some victory for America because it allowed an accustation that Italians are wimps. They ignored the fact that Italian law enforcement trying to gather evidence and round up networks had not known of the snatch and that "approval" was probably a "favor" ofsomeone in intelligence, not a high level intelligence choice and they ignore the fact that we broke our promise and blew the guy who helped us.

Then they get all righteous when the world doesn't offer full cooperation.

7/15/2005 09:27:00 AM  
Blogger Dymphna said...

Wretchard--
Given the tribal nature of Iraq, would any of those men defend women who are strangers to them, paid to perform but otherwise of no interest? And for sure they wouldn't tolerate one of "their" women participating in something like that.

And then there is the paralyzing effect of extreme violence. It paralyses the normal aggressive response to being attacked so that communities, families, and individuals are left to wallow in their own hopelessness because of the "global" nature of the dilemma.

Finally, there is the dangerous multi-culti attitudes of the standers-by, in this case the British. They no longer hve the stomach for the kinds of behavior that Neuroconservative pointed to. That's a vanished self-assurance.

And God help the poor women if Western feminism makes a toehold as it has in the Netherland's Muslim communities, where Hirsi Ali is seen as a troublemaker.

Jakita from your mouth to God's ears: There does seem to be a new Imperialism on the horizon, though it is not interested in claiming or keeping territory. See this, from a newspaper column in a paper in Glasgow:
America The World's Last Great Victorian

7/15/2005 09:38:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

david
CYA, lifer bureaucrats know the drill.
The CIA has been quite lost for quite a while. Think back to Belgrade and the bombing of the Chinese Embassy. Then there was the Israel spy, a mole so to speak. WMD, well the whole world was wrong about that one.
DoD has never been a careerist kingdom, nah, never.

7/15/2005 09:43:00 AM  
Blogger Annoy Mouse said...

David,
The Italian Job got all fowled up because of compartmentalization between the Italian civil authorities and the Italian intelligence bureau. The civies didn’t know about the snatch and grab.

US “spokesmen” blowing the cover off of their Italian counterparts was reprehensible. The game requires sucking it up and taking your licks without implicating your cohorts. The mafia would have done better.

7/15/2005 09:49:00 AM  
Blogger Short Fat Corporal said...

Since I don't remember verbatim Golda Meir's quote, I'll paraphrase: We will have peace when the Muslim world loves it's children more then it hates ours.

Wretchard submits that "The wellsprings of terrorism arise from certain tendencies within Islamic society itself", and suggests that injecting counter-Islamist cells into the Islamic world will aid in the reformation of Islam. The previous post entertained the notion that the Islamic world can create this reformation from within itself. A commenter hoped that the impetus for the reform would come from the atrocities committed by AQ in Iraq.

I won't dispute the possibility of such a plan, but I don't have faith in it's probability.

We have two major problems.

The first being, as Wretchard has pointed out numerous times, the interfernece of the Left in the War on Terror (or more bluntly the Riyadh-Berkley Axis). The infestation of our political structure by the Left makes fighting the War at any level harder expoentially. If the MSM did not slander the news out of, and regarding Iraq, would public opinion for it's support have declined so much? How much more leeway would the CINC have to fight the war with a majority of the nation publicly committed to the fight?
Any efforts on our part to support a cell driven Reformation of Islam would be squshed by the Dhimmicrats at first light.
We can't defeat the Islamists while we have the Left's "humanism" lodged between our shoulder blades.

Secondly, history doesn't support a revulsion for the Islamist's actions from within the umma. My first example is the degradation the Palestians have repeatedly subjected themselves to by spitting on every peace deal that has been brokered, while at the same time, being short-changed by their "pan-Arabic" brothers. My second is the murder of these prostitutes: not 2 years after Hussein and HIS barbarism were chased out of power, and the local govering power willingly chooses the same barbarism.

I don't have an answer for the first issue. If I were rich, I would buy media outlets. If I had political power, I would demand that academia be cleaned of it's 5th column. Those conservatives with wealth and political power don't seem inclined to take this approach.

Neither do I have a working solution for the second problem. My gut play would be to destroy the kaaba, while assasinating every prominent cleric that preached jihad. Then use VOA to put out the message, "Islam has failed. We welcome peaceful people into the modern world".

Let Muslims decide how to interpet that, and be prepared to deal with it.

Perhaps that would bring matters to a head with the Left as well.

Because the shame of it is that the Bush gamble might have a shot if the Left actually gave a damn about human freedom.

7/15/2005 10:02:00 AM  
Blogger Nathan said...

Because the shame of it is that the Bush gamble might have a shot if the Left actually gave a damn about human freedom.

They don't and it doesn't after 2008, regardless. Even a new President committed to the Bush Doctrine will stray from the path on the simple basis that he is not Bush, and his administration is not the Bush administration. Whether this path builds on the ambitious beginnings of the Bush Doctrine, or results in its undoing, has yet to be seen. I think it is fair to say that regardless of who is elected in 2008 there are very uncertain times ahead.

7/15/2005 10:12:00 AM  
Blogger Annoy Mouse said...

Terror vs Transparency
Perhaps our greatest weakness is that we in Western democracies live in a bi-polar world of pro and con’s. Such polarization is violently resisted in the Islamic world, even the so called moderates know better than to speak up.

In a famous case several years ago, the FBI prosecuted an off shore bank that was involved in money laundering, only to find out that it was wholly controlled by the CIA. But with compartmentalization, these mishaps can be expected from time to time. US security has been criticized for not “connecting the dots”, so to remedy this, law enforcement and intelligence were put under the umbrella of a national intelligence office. This threatens the use of compartmentalization and with it the possibility of “plausible deniability”.

In the highest reaches of government there are legions of ideological vigilantes who would gladly inform our enemies of our covert operations should they see any reason to oppose them. So the question remains, can a war on terror be waged while maintaining total transparency?

7/15/2005 10:19:00 AM  
Blogger geoffgo said...

Annoy m,

RE: Transparency

As I posed in a previous thread, Would Truman have been allowed to use the 1st nuke, if the "loyal oposition" of that time acting as they do today?

Clearly, the second nuke would have been out of the question.

7/15/2005 10:29:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

if you want to "hurt" islam...

simply nuke the black meteor.....

it would destroy islam....

minimum loss of live....

just a suggestion...

7/15/2005 10:34:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

want to destroy Judaism?
nuke the west wall
A much more realistic scenario
Good for the goose
good for the gander

7/15/2005 10:46:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

desert rat said...
want to destroy Judaism?
nuke the west wall
A much more realistic scenario
Good for the goose
good for the gander

newsflash.. the TEMPLE was destroyed... 2 times..

learn history....

7/15/2005 10:56:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

want to destroy Judaism?
nuke the west wall
A much more realistic scenario
Good for the goose
good for the gander

Desert Rat, seriously, learn history, the destruction of the Temple actually helped turn Judasim from a temple cult into religion/faith that stresses good works, the enemy's religion islam required it's people to make the Hajii... if that is destroyed it would cause saudia arabia to no longer be the center of the faith..

curb your emotion learn history... the Jewish temple was destroyed, the "fragment" of the western wall is a RETAINING wall... the temple MOUNT is the stolen occupied JEWISH lands that the MOSLEMS control...

I could have said, blow the dome.....

7/15/2005 11:00:00 AM  
Blogger Nathan said...

And Judaism hasn't died. What makes you think Islam will?

7/15/2005 11:01:00 AM  
Blogger Evan said...

The economist Timur Kuran has written about something called "preference falsification," in which support for an ideology appears strong, but only because everyone fears (1) the punishment of the ruler for dissent, and (2) that he is one of only a small number of people who supports change. That latter effect exists because everyone publicly lies about his preferences. To use W's language, this is why people must be "made willing" to stand up. Once public support for the regime cracks, it collapses suddenly. (Think Iran in 1979 and E. Europe in 1989.)

People forget that when Saddam Hussein fell there was delirium in the streets outside of the Sunni triangle. That sentiment was invisible before the invasion because of the terror apparatus. Perhaps Iraq, and Muslim societies everywhere, are eager to be rid of the sorts of people who car-bomb children, but aren't persuaded that the deal for a society without fanaticism is closed yet. The average person in Iraq, and in many Islamic societies, is used to seeing the thugs (in clerical garb or otherwise) run things, and doesn't want to stick his head up until he's confident he might live to tell about it.

7/15/2005 11:03:00 AM  
Blogger Nathan said...

Oh.

curb your emotion

Well, you're the one calling for a nuclear strike. This tit-for-tat you suggest has all the hallmarks of a blood feud- between Jews and Muslims. Is that really what you want?

7/15/2005 11:05:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

desert rat said...
want to destroy Judaism?
nuke the west wall
A much more realistic scenario
Good for the goose
good for the gander...

one last tidbit...

europe has for 1600 yrs burned jews, torah and synagoges.. over 9,000,000 jews and thousands of worship centers and torahs

the moslem world as murder only 100,000 of thousands, and have looted the jews for 1100 yrs, destroying the "wall" would do jack shit to Judaism..

Jews only in 1967 got to actually pray at the wall for the 1st time in decades, the jordan destroyed 100's of historic jewish sites in jerusalem, took historic (2000yr) tomb stones to make latrines.. the palestinians destroyed to the ground the tomb of Joseph... naw, the erasure of jewish historic sites is all to common to jews, and guess what? dont mean jack shit....

but to islam which has no problem in erasing anyone else's history, it would be a punch in the gut...

btw, enjoy christmas in that arab city called bethlehem, lol........

or that historic arab city nazerith.... lol

7/15/2005 11:06:00 AM  
Blogger Nathan said...

Maybe that's what we already have and it's completely silly of me to try to persuade either party otherwise.

7/15/2005 11:07:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

Well, you're the one calling for a nuclear strike. This tit-for-tat you suggest has all the hallmarks of a blood feud- between Jews and Muslims. Is that really what you want?

no, i want the west to hit islam... save it for when they nuke a western city... then use it as an option

if they could they would have...

7/15/2005 11:08:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

And Judaism hasn't died. What makes you think Islam will?

cause islam aint judaism...

islam REQUIRES the visit to the black meteor for worship.... it's a basic

7/15/2005 11:10:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

Nathan said...

nathan... nice name, know where your name comes from?

->wetting myself laughing so hard.

7/15/2005 11:11:00 AM  
Blogger Short Fat Corporal said...

"the destruction of the Temple actually helped turn Judasim from a temple cult into religion/faith that stresses good works" (PRFA)

I'm still floating the idea of the destruction of the Kaaba as a shock to Islam.

If Muslims can no longer make the haj, then how can they live by the Koran's strictures without reinterpeting them?

Once reinterpetation starts, where does it end?

7/15/2005 11:15:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

Maybe that's what we already have and it's completely silly of me to try to persuade either party otherwise.

naw nathan (the jewish prophet) if the jews hated the arabs as the arabs hate the jews, christians, pagans etc, would already have a glass shield over the arab world...

if the jews really hated the arabs millions of arabs would aready be dead

if the USA were hit the way israel was/is, you'd see millions dead....

naw, i suggested the destruction of a symbol, not mass murder... the arabs have been mass murdering.... oh that's right, the arabs complaint of stealing land is a capital crime, it aint murder to blow up jews at a shopping mall...

7/15/2005 11:15:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

I'm still floating the idea of the destruction of the Kaaba as a shock to Islam.

If Muslims can no longer make the haj, then how can they live by the Koran's strictures without reinterpeting them?

Once reinterpetation starts, where does it end?

can it be any worse than it's reinterpetation that calls for murder?

7/15/2005 11:16:00 AM  
Blogger Nathan said...

no, i want the west to hit islam... save it for when they nuke a western city...

So, you want a nuclear holocaust. You want Islamists, or whoever, to obliterate an American or European city so you can have a justification for returning the favor upon an Arab city.

7/15/2005 11:17:00 AM  
Blogger Short Fat Corporal said...

No nukes. I ain't a "nuke Mecca" guy.
Just want to make THAT clear.

7/15/2005 11:17:00 AM  
Blogger Cutler said...

"People forget that when Saddam Hussein fell there was delirium in the streets outside of the Sunni triangle. That sentiment was invisible before the invasion because of the terror apparatus. Perhaps Iraq, and Muslim societies everywhere, are eager to be rid of the sorts of people who car-bomb children, but aren't persuaded that the deal for a society without fanaticism is closed yet."

I say this as someone who supports our effort to democratize/liberaize, to an extent: We can't run our foreign policy on hopes and dreams.

7/15/2005 11:22:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

Nathan said...
no, i want the west to hit islam... save it for when they nuke a western city...

So, you want a nuclear holocaust. You want Islamists, or whoever, to obliterate an American or European city so you can have a justification for returning the favor upon an Arab city....

no, nathan (great jewish name) when the arabs/islamist NUKE us (and they are trying) rather than murder millions of innocent moslems, nuke thier SYMBOL...

I did not say, nuke cairo, i did not say hit population centers..... but remember nathan (nice jewish name) the islamists want to MURDER you... maybe cause you have a JEWISH name, maybe because you dont accept their superiority... either way, last time i checked it wasnt jews/israel trying to blow up the world trade center..

7/15/2005 11:22:00 AM  
Blogger Nathan said...

I know exactly where my name comes from, thank you, and why it was chosen. Remember also the prophet's parable to David.

7/15/2005 11:23:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

porker

You miss the point entirely

It is a MAD world and Israel is not immune to a retaliatory strike

The US will not launch preemptive Nuclear strike against any one.
No, truth be known, if what you say is straight and true, that Mohamedism will self destruct at a single stroke. Then there is one way to go. Sharon has a couple dozen warheads. He should launch today. The 'Western' world will hail his genius, after the fact, a few years after.

7/15/2005 11:24:00 AM  
Blogger Nathan said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

7/15/2005 11:26:00 AM  
Blogger heather said...

Destroying the Kaaba is probably going to happen, given that Blair's idea of fighting terrorism is to build more Muslim schools, and piling on yet more welfare.

Welfare is one of the driving forces here - a man who doesn't have to go to work can spend a LOT of time praying 5 times a day, and hanging with his bro's at the local mosque. Also, he doesn't have to think - all he has to do is memorize the Koran, and drop quotations here and there into the gossip session.

The other issue is - again - Saudi $$ supporting these hate filled imams, throughout the world (including Calgary, Alberta, I might add). Now, last year, it cost about $40 Canadian to fill my car's tank with gas; this summer, it costs $50. I would expect that if we got serious about taking out the goat herders running Arabia, I will have to pay $500 for that gas. Bush & co knows this. And here we wander into the swamps of Environmentalism (and the sensitivies of caribou on the tundra.)

And the business of women in the Arab world: Women are seen as basically evil, drawn to lawlessness, unless thoroughly imprisoned by the male members of their family/tribe. A woman who 'gets out of line' dishonours the entire tribe, making it impossible for the rest of the group to show their faces in the village souk, unless the offending woman is publicly punished - ie, by maiming or murder. It sounds to me like the Pakistani community in Leeds has never got out of their village souk - they just moved it to Leeds from Pakistan.

7/15/2005 11:27:00 AM  
Blogger Nathan said...

Destroying the Kaaba is probably going to happen

Probably. Let's just hope it's not as a result of the nuclear holocaust prescribed by our friend Pork here.

7/15/2005 11:33:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

...desert rat said...
porker

that's mister swine please...

...You miss the point entirely It is a MAD world and Israel is not immune to a retaliatory strike

gee tell me when israel has been hit with attacks and how do you determine what is "retaliatory" since the attacks to murder babies has never stopped...

I dont think we should worry that the islamists will really really really really really really really want to murder israel, since they really really really really really already say they want to murder every israeli man woman and child...

... Sharon has a couple dozen warheads. He should launch today. The 'Western' world will hail his genius, after the fact, a few years after....

israel aint allowed by the west to even build a wall...

and last time i checked, the world still hasnt revolked it's scolding of israel for taking out saddam nuke plant before it went online....

7/15/2005 11:33:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

nathan the jewish prophet said...
Destroying the Kaaba is probably going to happen

Probably. Let's just hope it's not as a result of the nuclear holocaust prescribed by our friend Pork here...

that's mr pork please....

is it a holocaust to murder a rock? i think not... nathan, too much emotion, not enuff logic... the rock baby..... not people, the rock... a small russian suitcase nuke could do it, do it when the black rock is empty (save lives)....

7/15/2005 11:35:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

oh i forgot... when jews destroy property it is a crime against humanity... so if the rock was destroyed, it is the same as the holocaust?

6,000,000 jews = one black rock

sounds fair.....

7/15/2005 11:37:00 AM  
Blogger Short Fat Corporal said...

At this point, we should all shut up about nukes. G*d only knows what will happen if ONE of those goes off. You think the target nation is going to be acting rationally at that point? AQ isn't even a nation; there is NO retalitory strike against them.
.............

We all agree that Islam is it functions today is a security threat to the West. We saw it in NYC, the Aussies saw it in Mali, the Israelis see it every day.

Is there a possibility of reforming Islam?

The idea of destroying the kaaba as a goad to reform is about the complete opposite of what Wretchard is suggesting.

Nathan brought up the likelihood that the Bush Doctrine doesn't last past 08. Wretchard's cells need long past that. Considering our political situation, I don't think the gamble works.

What else do we have to "help" Islam reform as necessary to function peacefully with us?

7/15/2005 11:38:00 AM  
Blogger Nathan said...

I find it vaguely amusing that Mr. Pork (shalom!) accuses everyone else of emotionalizing while calling for a nuclear strike.

Let's apply some logic.

How many times a day, and for how long, is the Kaaba wholly deserted by human beings within the irradiation radius of even our smallest tactical nuclear weapons?

7/15/2005 11:40:00 AM  
Blogger Nathan said...

The holocaust, Mr. Pork, would be the destruction wrought upon the West that would justify a Western retaliation, and that retaliation in kind.

7/15/2005 11:41:00 AM  
Blogger Nathan said...

Cpl,

Thank you for your wise words.

7/15/2005 11:43:00 AM  
Blogger Short Fat Corporal said...

Nathan,

If they were truly wise, I'd have a better idea then blowing up the kaaba just to wake the umma up from the 7th century.

I don't think we can win a slow war against Islamism. I think we could, IF we didn't have an entrenched influence that didn't want us to win.

I've heard conjecture that if a Democrat won in 08, they'd have to carry on (and might do so for political points), but from what I've seen from them, I'd just as soon call them dhimmicrats.

7/15/2005 11:51:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

Let's apply some logic.

How many times a day, and for how long, is the Kaaba wholly deserted by human beings within the irradiation radius of even our smallest tactical nuclear weapons?

well, truthfully, in off season at night, would be the smallest number of civilians to loose thier lives

7/15/2005 11:51:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

...Nathan said...
The holocaust, Mr. Pork, would be the destruction wrought upon the West that would justify a Western retaliation, and that retaliation in kind....

so if the west wanted to retaliate in "kind" it would simply bomb to death a few million moslems?

i prefer to hit the rock...

7/15/2005 11:53:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

C4 has a point he has never made, just thought of it today.

China is the heir of the Great Khan's throne, they have claim to all his vast, past domain.
Where once the Mongol rode
Returns now, the Chinese Horde.
By right of might
from Gailee and Baghdad
to Cracow over to Moscow

Having indigs confront their foes
Hovered above the fight
While stepping on our toes

7/15/2005 11:53:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

What else do we have to "help" Islam reform as necessary to function peacefully with us?

as stated on this blog, the killing of radical imams around the globe?

I like murdering holy big black rocks....

mr pork loves to kill rocks...... i am such a meany

7/15/2005 11:55:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

nathan - the hebraic prophet states: I find it vaguely amusing that Mr. Pork (shalom!) accuses everyone else of emotionalizing while calling for a nuclear strike.

Shalom back at ya...

In the middle of the night.... when all are sleeping, a small nuke suitcase hits the rock... whos to say "WHO" did it?

I personally think the answer will be in the destruction of the current faith..... thru destruction comes rebirth..

i still think we should start talking about the concept of rock murder and the moslems should start listening.....

7/15/2005 12:01:00 PM  
Blogger Short Fat Corporal said...

Pork Rinds,

Slow down buddy, I'm on your side as far as blowing the damn thing up :>

But I don't see the point in talking about nukes as a means. Too many dead innocents.

I can stomach "collateral damage" as a moral cost of war, and as a personal responsibility of a citizen at war. I demand that it be kept to a practical minumum as part of something I back.

And read my posts, I am not shy about advocating war, or the whacking of jihadis.

7/15/2005 12:03:00 PM  
Blogger heather said...

And back to the original Wretchard comment: prostitutes are being murdered in Basra.

Well, prostitutes were murdered back in Victorian London. And those ladies were old, diseased, and ugly.

Yet, Victorian society was outraged. Queen Victoria herself was outraged. The entire police force attempted to catch Jack the Ripper.

Now, where is the outrage among Basra's respectable people?? Are the local Basran police force on the hunt for the murderers??

7/15/2005 12:06:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Hit the rock.
Hhow many non nuclear JDAMs to destroy the building and the rock?.
one or two loads from a B-2 should do the trick.
You'll want to escalate to Armegeddon, with out the preliminary steps.
No need for nukes.

7/15/2005 12:09:00 PM  
Blogger Short Fat Corporal said...

But Heather,

The problems are intertwined (sp?)

Islamic mistreatment of women is a surely an uninterpetable part of the Koran as are the suras demanding the murder of kafir.

If there is no reform of Islam in the treatment of infidel, there won't be a reform in the treatment of women under sharia.

Do we in the the West sit back and wait for the collapse/reformation of Islam under it's own nihilism while tolerating a London, Madrid, or NYC every two years?

Do we fight a slow, professional, effecient war that might win if not for the traitors amongst us?

Or do we do make a symbolic attack on a pillar of an unchanging religon?

7/15/2005 12:18:00 PM  
Blogger Short Fat Corporal said...

Sorry Heather, I left this out.

These women were the most defenseless of perhaps any in Iraq, except the children, and the children/clans, at least have their families to defend them.

I didn't mean to ignore the specific question of these women.

The Brits dropped the ball. You might as well call them Belgian UN peacekeepers. I wish I had a better answer.

7/15/2005 12:23:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

....But I don't see the point in talking about nukes as a means. Too many dead innocents...

I am not for dead innocents at all...

I am for rock transformagation....

.....I demand that it be kept to a practical minumum as part of something I back....

me too!!!

but the rock cant be simply blown up...

it could be stolen?

it could be "occupied"

could it be bombed with my pig fat?

i hate death.... i would love to humilate the enemy...

7/15/2005 12:30:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

...desert rat said...
Hit the rock. How many non nuclear JDAMs to destroy the building and the rock?.one or two loads from a B-2 should do the trick. You'll want to escalate to Armegeddon, with out the preliminary steps.
No need for nukes....

see now we are talking... clear communication solve misunderstand and other peoples uses of words...

you see "nukes" as a escalate to Armegeddon..

i dont.. our own MOAB is far more deadly and doesnt have the "nuke" label..... I see a small thermo device as an a heat source, as a glassblower i see temps about 1900 degrees all the time... so my mind is think a small nuke is a very hot fire to smelt/turn to into base elements the object of question.....

I can grow, I can listen, you object to the term "nuke" I am not as educated as you the terms: JDAMs or B-2... I dont have a clue.... dont want to use nukes, have other explosive or even non explosive ways to neutralize the object... but understand, BEFORE we nuke/MOAB/Cluster bomb whatever population, let's take out the symbols FIRST

7/15/2005 12:38:00 PM  
Blogger heather said...

Yes, we in the West have immersed ourselves in trying to solve root causes, and it is amusing to consider the 'roots' of the Islam problem. Military muscle is our great strength, one recognized even by the most parochial of Muslims. We should use that.

Although I have to like your suggestion about the kaaba - remembering the effect upon the Jews, when their temple was destroyed. However, remember that both times, the elite of Israel's society were dragged off to slavery in Babylon, and then throughout the Roman world.

The trouble is, the American people - barring another successful 9/11 - is going to want to bring the boys home, certainly by 2008. Mushareff knows this, as does Karzai and most of the Middle Eastern leadership.

Remember that $500 tank of gas. Barring truly extensive slaughter, we will not put up with that kind of trouble, we in the West. And Thailand's problems impinge upon us only to the extent that it is a nice and cheap place to vacation.

If the Arab is having a tough time facing the Modern World, so are we Westerners.

Anyway, the Brits should not allow Basra to ignore the murders of these women by those monsters.

7/15/2005 12:38:00 PM  
Blogger heather said...

"The wellsprings of terrorism arise from certain tendencies within Islamic society itself; and unless the weeds are pruned the flowers will never grow, until we find ourselves alone at midnight in the Garden of Evil."
Wretchard, or anyone else who may know about this: does Basra have a local police force, or local justice system? Or is that left up to the family/tribe?

7/15/2005 12:51:00 PM  
Blogger PLWCPA said...

No need for explosives at all. Just drop a couple of quarts of pig blood on it.

7/15/2005 12:51:00 PM  
Blogger Nathan said...

There are commensurate risks associated with attacking a target as symbolic as the Kaaba and not all of them are associated with the direct loss of life resulting from, or leading up to, such an attack.

I am not prepared to advocate the destruction of the Kaaba, and I am somewhat surprised, and vaguely disappointed, that this is apparently being regarded as a serious consideration by more than a single Belmont reader.

I do not dispute that such an act would have significant consequences; the question is whether all of these consequences would be favorable to the West; America, Europe, and Israel alike.

The best answer probably does not lie in meeting violence with even symbolic violence. Even so-called mainstream Muslims have indicated that their deference for figures, e.g. the Koran, is greater than their deference for their own lives, let alone the lives of their women and children.

Who would care about the collateral damage resulting from such an attack? Only the West. Who would care about the destruction of such an important symbol? Only Islam. Would the West face retaliation for such a blasphemous act against a single religion? Certainly. Who would care about meeting the West's impudence with like force? Islam. Who would care about the human cost of Islamic retaliation? Only the West.

The West is thus hamstrung by Islam through a morality of life. Islam, by the burgeoning birthrates of its constituents and the declining birthrates of its opposition, can afford collateral damage to its own and to its enemies, while the West cannot afford that luxury to either. Unless we unbind ourselves from this morality and engage in both wanton slaughter and productive promiscuity against the bloodletting and babymaking Islam we cannot afford to engage in tit-for-tat acts with any equity.

Most likely, the best answer is, as Wretchard and others have noted, to evoke an ideological change from within to alter, among other things, this deadly and inhumane prioritization. I cannot say with any conviction that the destruction of the Kaaba would certainly evoke such a change to the benefit of both Islam and the West. Such an act would be- as a matter of severe understatement- world-changing beyond our ability to accurately foresee.

Let us think seriously, logically, as it were, please.

7/15/2005 12:56:00 PM  
Blogger Nathan said...

Perhaps we could frame the question this way:

Could Muslims of any stripe be fairly expected to appreciate the signifance of the destruction of the Kaaba with no human casualties against the destruction of the World Trade Center with its three thousand dead? Would the distinction hold any meaning to them, or would the loss of life be irrelevant in either case? Does the blood feud model follow in this exchange of symbolic destruction? Is this a desired result?

And so on.

7/15/2005 01:06:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

heather says: Although I have to like your suggestion about the kaaba - remembering the effect upon the Jews, when their temple was destroyed. However, remember that both times, the elite of Israel's society were dragged off to slavery in Babylon, and then throughout the Roman world. ...

Lets make a few small points:

effect upon the Jews..
1. allowed the jews to grow bigger than a place.
2. caused the creation of rabbinic judiasm, hillel and shammai were sent to "israel" from the learned peoples of bavel, thus giving rise to jesus...
3. the changing of jewish thought from requiring offerings or sacfirices, to change to prayer no longer required a "holy site"
4. the bavel talmud, far greater a authentic and importanr source than the palestinian talmud (yes virginia there was a palestinian people - JEWS)
5. 700 years of absolute jewish freedom in bavel

the roman funship...

Jews built the coliseum
Jewish tradespeople spread thru out europe
Jewish glassblowers brought GLASS to venice and europe

maybe the blowing of a PILLAR in islam is what they need to grow beyond a 7th century cult

back to the future, time for some 11th century islam when my mentor rambam lived....

7/15/2005 01:09:00 PM  
Blogger heather said...

And on to practical matters. Is there any way that bloggers could force a criminal investigation of these Basra murders?

The assumption that ALL PEOPLE are equal before the Law, and deserve the protection of the Law (including prostitutes and by extension all women) would be a very good idea to force upon the good citizens of Basra.

And it may be the sort of thing we people could actually accomplish.

7/15/2005 01:26:00 PM  
Blogger Nathan said...

Is there any way that bloggers could force a criminal investigation of these Basra murders?

Does anybody know anybody with any authority in Basra?

7/15/2005 01:33:00 PM  
Blogger Mətušélaḥ said...

If Allah can't protect his holy places, he obviously is not the greatest. Without that mystical facet to this blood cult, there's not much that is left. I also think too many have bought into jihadi theatrics and this notion that Islamists are indifferent to death or their mass exposure to it. Unless we're looking at a completely new species here, that simply can't be so.

7/15/2005 01:36:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

Honestly what the hell is this general Arab tolerance for murder and mass murder in their midst?!

One thing's for certain, these are not Englishmen we're dealing with. Goddamn bizarre is what it is. How accurate those horrible Orientalists were and are. Amazing.

7/15/2005 01:40:00 PM  
Blogger Short Fat Corporal said...

Excellent answer, Nathan.

I agree with you that there is not a certainity, or even a calculable probability, of what the results of this action would be.

I also agree that the West would not have the will to fight a war of annhiliation if the Muslim reaction was jihad.

I'm sorry you're disappointed in my thinking. Don't worry, I'm not on the NSC :)

In seriousness, though, the approach that Bush and Wretchard suggest is threatened by the nature of American politics. This not only includes the subversion by the left, but the tendency of a large part of our society to ignore politics altogether. Not all calls to bring the troops home are motivated by the Left. We have abandoned allies time and time again due to the nature of our politics.

You have suggested that the Bush doctrine likely fails in '08. What happens to the cells for which we would abandon support? Do we simply hope they win out against the odds?

My thought is that an event that shakes the foundation of, or the faith in Islam is needed during this window of time. Now we have a leader that will take advantage of that event. If not, America falls back into complacency until the next WTC attack.

The problem is that any such event causes by our efforts would have to be something along the lines of "destroy the kaaba". It is likely that any such event would be symbolic, and stir up the Islamic world. So we're talking about the same moral problem of lives taken again. That is the problem with a religon fixed upon symbols, and upon death.

I'm not fixated on the idea of a "slap to the head" shock; of blowing up the kaaba, for example. I honestly don't have a better idea, faced with a determined political opposition, and the timeline an active leader has left.

7/15/2005 01:41:00 PM  
Blogger Tony said...

The time for using nukes was while the smoke was still rising from the WTC, the Pentagon, and from the wreckage of Flight 93 in Shanksville. We knew where the Taliban was headquartered, we knew who had attacked us. Two quick strikes in Afghanistan would have killed far less people than died at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

It would have been the merciful thing to do, instead of letting this war drag on like this.

If the money guys, the mullahs, and the enabling dictators were more afraid of us than they are of the terrs, we'd be a lot further along in this necessary war by now.

7/15/2005 01:47:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

You guys know why such a subtle idea will never work?

Look at these people. Do you think they have this expansive sense of time and community? Hell no: they live in the largest hermetic, fatalistic, dead society on earth. Dead. No one believes in this kind of change there. Just look. They believe in short-term grievance mongering--which, thanks to the same things that make it dead, is good for us, because if they attack any target it will probably be to our and their advantage. Of course we are there to prevent the Islamists from taking this fallow field over.

No. War is the answer. War now, limited war, regional war, discrete war, sudden war. Force the crisis goddamnit. Force the fucking crisis already.

I'd think there're enough people who know who and where the insurgents in Iraq are and enough marines that if there was a will for this kind of thing this would already be restricted to border skirmishes.

C'mon guys. Come on.

7/15/2005 01:47:00 PM  
Blogger heather said...

OK. Please help me with this. How does one pressure the good citizenry of Basra, let them know that there are other people out here to see them as barbarians if they don't find those killers and bring them to justice. Are there Brit Bloggers who may know about this?? Wretchard, where are you anyway?

7/15/2005 01:48:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

Blowing up the Kaaba is a retarded idea, frankly. What other way could there possibly be to turn this into a general religious war? No: if you're going to nuke the Kaaba you might as well just kill every regime from the air at the same time--a little of that coordination they love so much, for example.

If we nuked the Kaaba the Iraqis and Afghanis would cannablize our troops, and we would have turned what is not a strategic target into a strategic target.

For once I'd like to wake up one morning and here over NPR "Kofi Annan has strongly condemned US airstrikes on Damascus, Tehran, Ramallah, Southern Lebanon and Cairo today which have left the 5 regimes leaderless, and their peoples blinking into the morning..."

We act like a giant nation-bureaucracy. Enough. If Kennedy doesn't like it, Bush should just walk out into the Rose Garden and say "Yeah well I just ain't got no truck with fat girl-drowning assholes."

7/15/2005 01:53:00 PM  
Blogger Annoy Mouse said...

Nuke the Rock!
While the current administration tip toes around the issues of Islam and the “religion of peace”, it occurs to one that they have taken great care not to openly declare a religious war against Islam. Wretchard posits that we may be in a position to influence a Muslim, “homegrown”, counterinsurgency, and although radical Islamists have framed the conflict as a “Jihad”, a holy war, Westerners have been reticent to frame it in reciprocal terms.

As much as I like the symmetry of, “you blow up the world trade center, our symbol of wealth, we will blow up the asteroid, your symbol of God”, I think that it would doom our efforts to turn Islam in on itself.

So in the spirit of fighting an asymmetrical threat, the imbalance that can hope to tip the scales in our favor may be to exploit the rift between the moderates and the extremists. Not to galvanize their will to defeat the West. Remember the Babylonians did not stop at destroying the symbol of the Jewish temple, but followed through with merciless subjugation for many years.

7/15/2005 01:53:00 PM  
Blogger Nathan said...

If Allah can't protect his holy places, he obviously is not the greatest.

I don't see any technical rationale that would interfere with an air strike on the Kaaba. No radar installations or SAM sites that I am aware of. No, the Kaaba is protected only by the inaction of those who would destroy it. A tempting target!

Without that mystical facet to this blood cult, there's not much that is left.

Are we willing to bet unknown consequences on such an assumption?

I also think too many have bought into jihadi theatrics and this notion that Islamists are indifferent to death or their mass exposure to it. Unless we're looking at a completely new species here, that simply can't be so.

You're right- no sarcasm. But Islam is winning a certain numbers game and can, and will, accept more losses than its Western counterparts. Simply put, Islam has the capability and the will to breed generation after generation of suicide bombers right alongside its sustainable population. This does not bode well for the efficacy of Western violence short of genocide.

Organized violence is an indisputable strength of the West; but the West will not survive this conflict by applied violence alone unless it can again unabashedly abandon millenia of Judeo-Christian conscience, and to greater effect.

7/15/2005 01:56:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

Once they're all down, we bring out the B29s, circle Riyadh with a giant megaphone and say: GIVE UP OR YOU ALL DIE.

Then we purge the madrassahs and mosques in our neck of the woods.

I'm sorry, their socially-acceptable form of insanity has got to become socially unacceptable AT LEAST in OUR COUNTRY FIRST.

Damn. Story of the 20th century. Handfulla assholes ruining millions of lives. Where are our balls. All this is KNOWABLE.

I just heard on NPR that some well-known imam in England just said that if it could be proved al Qaeda did the bombings, it would be a great victory for them.

Where's the goddamn firing squad!?

Declare them pirates! Kill them now!

7/15/2005 01:58:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

Genocide is idiocy. There are plenty of Iraqis who want us to win. If their perverted elites do not, so what; neither do ours. The point is drive at them, lower the bar of tolerance, drastically raise the stakes of punishment. Suspend habeas corpus for imams. Let us draw the line now, rather than later. Their determination and ability has been well-documented. Let the burka-wearing self-enslaved lunatics go about their business, but for god's sake let us at least leave them leaderless.

7/15/2005 02:03:00 PM  
Blogger Short Fat Corporal said...

Dan,

You have squished the kabaa idea. Not in terms of a threat to our troops. I know they'd be able to handle it.

Blowing up the kaaba would screwup everything we've accomplished in Iraq and Afganistan in the last 4 years.

So now we've got 3 years left. Unless there is enough of a movement to get Condi tapped for the nominee in 08.

Is there a consenus that this counrty sustains the political will to fight the war as it's being fought, and the will to counter Islam from within in 3 years?

I know the kind of folk that argue little details like blowing up the kaaba, or cutting of the head of the snake, or setting up the pieces for a Reformation are in it for the long haul, but what about your neighbors? What new lies will CNN and CBS cook up in those 3 years?

7/15/2005 02:13:00 PM  
Blogger The Writers Blog said...

Being in the Garden of Evil at midnight, there can be no greater fear. Great posts. When you tolerate barbarity where do you go next?

7/15/2005 02:19:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

Exhelodrvr summarizes -

The ultimate goal is the security of the United States and United States' interests. Bringing democracy to Iraq/the MidEast is seen as the best longterm means to achieve that end. We need to keep our eyes focused on that goal. That means that we should not interfere in every aspect of their society that we don't approve of, as distasteful as they might be, whether that be pledging 10 year old girls in marriage, or these types of actions.

I think his summary is partially right, but subject to the general incoherence of Bush & Co since 9/11.

It's a Religion of Peace hijacked by a few evildoers who must be smoked out of their caves and brought to justice by our hero 1st responders if we are to be safe. And that means more firetrucks are needed in Duluth! No! Its about freeing Afghan women from their Burquas! No! It's about assembling a consensus global coalition against "Terror" and America being a listening supportive nation ready to lend a hand to allies like Australia and former foes like Russia. No! It's about regime change of all the nations posing a threat to Israel, with N Korea thrown in to be PC and omitting the Sauds because they are dear friends! (Faster America, Faster please!)And America doesn't need no stinking allies other than our bestest buds ever, Israe! No! It's about showing them how good Western Civ is, the ignorant unfortunates! No! Its about bringing Democracy to Islam as the all-wise Anatoly Sharansky of the Right Wing Likud proclaims!

What it is looking like after 4 years is a continuing idealogical battle for Islam in how it interacts with infidels and the degree Muslim nations will secularize or return to a "purer" Islam. And this isn't new. Just in the 20th Century the Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt, the Young Turks led by the Great Kemal Attaturk, Sayyid Qtub, Ayatollah Khoumeni, Sirhan Sirhan, etc - were all part of this debate.

And it is about this civil war for the future of Islam spilling out from being a Muslim issue to being a global issue. Because Muslims are reaching out and killing the infidel in the infidels's own country or as they interact with Islamic nations in a global economy. And because their birth demographics and refusal to assimilate have incubated a major crisis in the soft, multiculti, "we tolerate everything and put our foes liberties above our very lives" liberal segment of Western Civ.

The "spread democracy contingent" energized by the Israeli Likudnik Sharansky forget that we don't want certain democratic Revolutions or votes: Like the Algerian vote the radical Islamists won or the Iranian Islamist Revolution of 1979. Sharansky, who is a Zionist who wants to expand Israel's borders further, was called on this. OK, then lets have democracy in Gaza. Hold elections. "NO", he said, that would be the worst thing possible because Hamas would win and the Settlements would be endangered...and a Democratically elected Gaza would be a terrorist tyranny poised to strike at the very heart of Eretz Yisrael!

Well, Anatoly, get with your #1 fan Dubya and make up your mind!

Finally, exhelodrvr correctly notes we can't change every little thing....but change must come to Islam. Majority vote means nothing in itself, like terrorism, it is simply a technique to achieve a political end that sets certain societal transformations to work for good or bad.

The changes we seek are in laws and traditions to something acceptable to both the Muslims to end 800 years of decaying stultified civilization for them - and to us infidels - for our security and preservation of the values we hold dear. So it's not just democracy, but democracy with woman's sufferage and laws protecting children better, a constitutional state that confronts rampant corruption and and lack of an ordering structure outside Islam itself.

7/15/2005 02:23:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Great thread. Especially the vision of GWB in the rose garden answering the Creature from the Lagoon, Ted Kennedy.

7/15/2005 02:30:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

Babylonians did not stop at destroying the symbol of the Jewish temple, but followed through with merciless subjugation for many years.

utter crap.....

7/15/2005 02:33:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

c4:The "spread democracy contingent" energized by the Israeli Likudnik Sharansky forget that we don't want certain democratic Revolutions or votes: Like the Algerian vote the radical Islamists won or the Iranian Islamist Revolution of 1979. Sharansky, who is a Zionist who wants to expand Israel's borders further, was called on this. OK, then lets have democracy in Gaza. Hold elections. "NO", he said, that would be the worst thing possible because Hamas would win and the Settlements would be endangered...and a Democratically elected Gaza would be a terrorist tyranny poised to strike at the very heart of Eretz Yisrael!

i am with you..... democracy for gaza... one vote, one man, one time! let hamas win and declare war like it already has...

then let israel fight back....

against the democratic elected death cult...

then dont complain when the gazian population ceases to be, all brought to you by democracy.

7/15/2005 02:37:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

Y'know I don't know. The media is now a fifth column, either too stupid or too wicked to help us their audience and fellow countrymen. Therefore, they should not be listened to.

The thing of it all is this, also: we've already given them two great real reasons to want to nuke us that I can finally agree with: we've taken over their precious Islamic soil. Sure we know it's temporary and conditional and god knows we don't want to have to try to rule those people (though they're welcome to come here, legally). But to whoever loves this grievance crap, they've already got em, so please let's not indulge in this "but we'll make more!!!" bullshit. Too late.

Thus, we must presume they are tying to nuke us.

How can we tolerate this? How can anyone tolerate this? I remember this liberal pseudo-friend of mine leaning across the bar table before the election and sneering at me "There won't BE another attack--it's all propoganda!"

Listen: how can we defer to these people on any matter? How? Basic individual pride--never mind national security--forbids it.

So I say we force it man, force this crap out into the open, full court press: call out Iran in our "reopening of diplomatic ties"--which we raise with the condition that Iran give up terrorism and grant us favorable oil contracts (ha HA!). Use the resulting inflammatory Islamo-macho rhetoric against them & destroy their navy in their harbors. It's not like they're not already screwing with us in every possible way anyway.

Or perhaps the Admin knows they already have a nuke?

And now the scenario runs away with my imagination.

Anyway get rid of the known radical imams and mullahs in ENgland. Arrest them and physically launch them with huge Ottoman-era catapults into the freaking Channel and let Allah save them if he so wishes.

Enough. These people understand force--force and cupidity. It has always been that way since the dawn of recorded history and it will be so until they have their World War II, and are on the German end. They need not be on the Jewish or Soviet end. We are not evil. But we are not supines bitches either. There must be consequences, collective consequences. Now. That is what will help turn the community against them. And only that.

7/15/2005 02:40:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

Heather -

I understand your sentiments, but the US and Britain are not in Iraq with a purpose to police the country if the Iraqis refuse to do that work themselves.

Besides a militia killing whores, kidnapping for money is rampant. There were over 2,000 kidnappings of businessmen, women, and children to extort a ransom just in Baghdad last year. Every day, dead bodies are picked up - not if insurgents and counter-insurgents - but of robbery victims and even more so - thieves hunted down and killed by vigilantes.

America & the Brits can express their disapproval to ruling authorities - tell them if they let these militia gangs or kidnap rings function unmolested, if they don't take down thieves...that activity just growns and they have a bigger mess down the road without a Brit squad being around to back them up in taking out a militia..

And we can't change cultural actions by fiat. Whores will still be beaten and used for free sex by cops, religious leaders, and Iraqi officials...for awhile, hopefully not forever as long as their democracy survives and grows and gives the whores alternative work. Liberating Afghanistan was supposed to liberate the women of the burquas the neocons fixated on. Of course they still wear burquas, but as women get educated and slowly assert their new rights, perhaps not forever.

7/15/2005 02:44:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

The London bombings, the murdering of children, the Firining up of Australia @ Bali, the Beslan Massacre, all these things and more have hardened the people who write in here--and a few billion likewise--toward an acceptance of the exact reversal of the PC ethos. It makes me recall the odd theory that 911 and all such are at the deepest levels cries for help, an attempt to force change in Islam, to let some air in somehow. Fits the suicide theme of their war-making, too.

"Please DO something, we are SICK!"

7/15/2005 02:45:00 PM  
Blogger Wild Bill said...

OK, I'm gonna piss THE BOSS here off now.. Before we do any withdrawl from Iraq, and before the U.S. mainland gets the American Hiroshima, we need to alert Diego Garcia, have them load up 2 32-ship formations of C-130's with the Daisy Cutters, and send them to Mindanao, followed by 24 hours of Buffs carpet bombing.. If there ever was a nest of rats that needed cleansing, that one does.. My guess is that there are way less than 10% of innocents there.. Send in Al Jiz and have them show what will happen to the next place, when there seems to be futile use of trying to "save" a people from themselves.. The Filipino leaders are so FUBAR right now, that I dont think they could muster more than a stern comdemnation from the U.N. .. This also might have enuff impact on the corrupt's there as to send a message to leave the leaders alone and let them run the country unabated.. The Aussies would be a lot safer, the Indo's would definitley increase efferts to "just get along", the Pal Auth would take notice for sure.. I have no doubt that there would be a lot of "pigs sqweeling under gates", but that also a lot of peace talks would be forthcoming, in the very near future !!

7/15/2005 02:59:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

The Phillipines gets that treatment? Why? Because they're FUBAR?

I just don't think this mass attack is good for anything but evil. I say we start with the imams. Let them have their war against Islam--they already think they have it.

They ALREADY THINK all these things we're "afraid of."

We know who does this. How could we not? We have taps everywhere, judicial system or no, because people are psychotic. So by all means, let the purges begin. Why would we pull a NKVD? Of course we won't. We won't even inter the Muslims, Arabs, Persians, Pakis--none of them. That is only the final phase, which they will have pushed us to. Until then, let us at least deprive them of their raving spiritual leaders--and by all means, let us celebrate their good leaders publicly, and happily--conservative or moderate.

This radicalism, although it has ample roots in the Koran, is not some sort of conservatism--it is a fascist-style perversion of already-diseased hearts. We must break the spell, but we must also break some people. I have complete though perhaps naive confidence that in our country of 2005 we would do it judiciously. Whether it is effective or not will be partly, as it is ultimately, will be up to them.

If they want a general war, however, let them review the history of the civilization of which we represent the safest, most shining civic version of, and think about it. Think about it long and hard. I will never be a part of anything remotely like the Gulag, the pogroms or the concentration camps. But I could kick them fuck out, and I wouldn't be above a little Inquisition (understood historically, not in its idiot contemporary charicature).

7/15/2005 03:11:00 PM  
Blogger Tony said...

Dan,

Please, no swearing. This is the Belmont Club.

7/15/2005 03:42:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Dan,
You are spittin, slobering, low class scumbag.

7/15/2005 03:59:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Offhand mention of Gates of Vienna on Hewitt.
Out.

7/15/2005 04:00:00 PM  
Blogger Nathan said...

"Gentlemen, gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"

Funny, but I think we can still afford to maintain professionalism at this point.

7/15/2005 04:01:00 PM  
Blogger Charles said...

mika. said...
If Allah can't protect his holy places, he obviously is not the greatest. Without that mystical facet to this blood cult, there's not much that is left. I also think too many have bought into jihadi theatrics and this notion that Islamists are indifferent to death or their mass exposure to it. Unless we're looking at a completely new species here, that simply can't be so.

1:36 PM
////////////////////
Another set of dead sea scrolls were reported found today. They concern the book of leviticus and date from the second jewish "Bar Kochba"revolt against the romans in the 2nd century AD.

Ancient scrolls found in Judean Desert

Biblical Scroll Fragments Found in Israel

After the second revolt the Romans dispersed the Jews and barred them from ever entering Jerusalem.

Curiously, as far as I know, while the moslem occupation of Jerusalem was far longer than the Roman occupation--the moslems don't seem to have nearly as much influence on Jewish sacred literature as the Romans.

But my words here are just built on superficial impressions. So I would cheerfully accept correction on this --if its not so.

7/15/2005 04:02:00 PM  
Blogger Annoy Mouse said...

Pork,
Babylon enslaved 10,000 Jews. It is hard to think of that as a noble purpose. Now they treated them OK I suppose considering they were bound and marched away by force from their homeland. But the theocrats of the time wrote history to explain that it was a punishment for not keeping up the Jews “end of the bargain.” Babylon was overrun by the Persians in time and the Jews were released.

It was after all a military defeat, but if you are to insinuate that this was a merciful subjugation, then I suppose you are strictly interpreting the Torah. I am not a rabbinical scholar, thanks. Oh, and by the way, I appreciate your acerbic sensibilities.

7/15/2005 04:04:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

Sorry

7/15/2005 04:06:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

____GREAT PHOTO_____ .
We're better than the British, says Chirac...
---
What's perfessionalism?
Dan is a fellow Scotch Presbyterian.
We all talk that way.

7/15/2005 04:06:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

Another set of dead sea scrolls were reported found today. They concern the book of leviticus and date from the second jewish "Bar Kochba"revolt against the romans in the 2nd century AD.

Please use BCE & CE instead of BC & AD at least when discussing Jewish History...

BCE= before the common era
CE = common era

BC = before christ
AD = year of our lord

7/15/2005 04:07:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Dan's also are most knowledgeable poster, I was just playing my new part as annoyed Doug.
Clever name, eh?

7/15/2005 04:07:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

BC = Before his Coming

AD = After Doug

7/15/2005 04:08:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Were you on your knees pointing toward you know what, Dan?

7/15/2005 04:10:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

When ever I was on my knees,
there was a porcelain throne
somewhere in the vicinity
Have not paid homage there in decades. Can't blame the ale,
Youth and misadventure were to blame, I'm sure.

7/15/2005 04:18:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

I like Pork's sticking up for his people. I like that in a pork rind.

7/15/2005 04:18:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

My problem is, I'm a dickhead. I don't care whether the Jews are right or not. I just like their sensibility. If USA had no Jews and no Blacks, we'd all be sittin' out in the barn, drunk, playing with shotguns, staring red-eyed out the window, feeling like killin' somebody.

7/15/2005 04:21:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

4:18 PM Larsen

Why don't the "mainstream" Christian Church's do that?
---
Medved was talking about a new worldwide Pew survey:
---
Bottom line for me, as I've been saying for years, is that the vocabulary for antichristian, antiamerican s... worldwide mostly originates HERE.

7/15/2005 04:21:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

I'd kill Doug in a minute, if not restrained by people with joy de vivre.

7/15/2005 04:24:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Is that what Chirac has in that picture with Tony?

7/15/2005 04:25:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

I hope it doesn't straighten out Koizumi's locks.

7/15/2005 04:26:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

I don't know why the legacy churches have gone so stupid, Doug. We better learn why it is that people pick sides, tho. It's past time to keep checking the number of angels dancing on the heads of pins. Pick your side. Screw it.

7/15/2005 04:27:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

They do not do it, doug, because they do not believe they are in the right. No defensefor US because you are guilty, by definition. We have failed the world and ourselves.
We are just big, mean, religious bigots.

7/15/2005 04:27:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

That suits me, rat. I'm getting tired of explaining things, anyway.

7/15/2005 04:31:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Joy for Life Indeed!
.Mr Chirac's response was not only a rebuff to Mr Sarkozy but also part of a concerted campaign to restore French pride at a time of national soul-searching and gloom.

7/15/2005 04:32:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Need to form an Old Fart Corp.

7/15/2005 04:33:00 PM  
Blogger Nathan said...

Hey guys,

Check this out.

And especially check out the video... which was made by the insurgent sniper team. Awesome!

7/15/2005 04:33:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Just one more thing bud:
Explain to me why
KKKarl Rove
(FROM TEXAS)
Should not be kicked out?

7/15/2005 04:34:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

If our old guys could fight their old guys, then the young--with everything yet in front of them--could be spared. Have to prep the battlefields a bit, tho. Lots of defibrillators and such.

7/15/2005 04:35:00 PM  
Blogger Tony said...

Dan,

Like Doug I was just trying to be ironic.

7/15/2005 04:36:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

That defibrallator thing:
Is that some San Fran Sex Toy?

7/15/2005 04:40:00 PM  
Blogger Tony said...

Buddy: If USA had no Jews and no Blacks, we'd all be sittin' out in the barn, drunk, playing with shotguns, staring red-eyed out the window, feeling like killin' somebody.

We would not! You sheethead!

7/15/2005 04:41:00 PM  
Blogger THE DIRECTORATE said...

Fighting Islam and particularly the Islamofascist forms of Islam that manifest in mayhem, requires more than just a police effort. When dealing with folks who often look forward to death, it is not easy to provide a sufficient deterrant. To hit them where it hurts one has to take Islam on directly. Start by proving how the Koran is a poor knock off of the Old Testament, which is itself a knock off of Babylonian customs and beliefs. Publicize this and make it common knowledge. Once they stop believing - the insanity will stop as well. Religion causes more suffering and death than all the violently mentally ill folks in the world combined. Islam is has long since displaced Christianity for top honors in the bloodletting contest. Ignorance of their own religion sustains belief. The pillars of Islamofacism can be knocked down only when enough of the masses suspend belief.

7/15/2005 04:42:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

No, Doug, it's those ping-pong paddles that Mrs. Doug hung on the wall next to your computer desk.

7/15/2005 04:50:00 PM  
Blogger Tony said...

Nathan,

I love the fact that we are watching the captured :sniper: team's video!

I got a whole new impression for the "allahu akbar" chant as the boys starting chanting louder and more fervently as our guy jumped right up and assumed a fighting position.

Allahu akbar started sounding a lot like "holy sheet ... holy sheet ... holy sheet"

7/15/2005 04:50:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Survey finds terrorism losing support among Muslims Faith in democracy in Islamic countries is rising, poll says -
Robin Wright, Washington PostFriday, July 15, 2005

7/15/2005 04:52:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Oh, that's gonna REALLY bother our DC Demcoats!

7/15/2005 04:57:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

She's got THEM directly connected to my 10kw emergency generator.
She considers it a motivator.

7/15/2005 04:59:00 PM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

It's my understanding that that black rock in Saudi Arabia is man-made. Rather like the World Trade Center towers. We can destroy it, and leave a stinking radioactive hole in the ground -- rather like the World Trade Center towers -- but what's to prevent them from re-building it some place else?

7/15/2005 05:00:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

I thought Kim Jung was Ill along with his brother mass murderers of 100s of Millions.
Atheists All.

7/15/2005 05:02:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Stupid idea.
They forgot how to BUILD things long ago.

7/15/2005 05:03:00 PM  
Blogger Tony said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

7/15/2005 05:05:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

the directorat has it right when he says,
"Ignorance of their own religion sustains belief."
For the millions that cannot even READ the koran!

7/15/2005 05:16:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Do they have an NEA?

7/15/2005 05:18:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"Bin Laden's standing went up slightly in Pakistan, to 51 percent, and in Jordan, to 60 percent."

7/15/2005 05:19:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Possible explanation for that 60%: The Jordanians do NOT want to have any responsibility for/toward the Pakis--if bin Ladenism is what it takes, then so be it. (?)

7/15/2005 05:29:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Some Moron named VD Hanson on Hewitt disagrees with our own brilliant 'Rat on downsizing Navy:
One way he looks at carriers is 5,000 strong universities for young men.
Contrasts them with the Balkanized Campus he retired from:
Fully Integrated, young men working as a team responsible for expensive, hight tech weapons systems produces mature adults.
Can't say that for Campi.
Plus, they are a lot cheaper than any foreign land bases.

7/15/2005 05:58:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

VDH Transcript will be available at Radioblogger.com

7/15/2005 05:59:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Scroll Down for Mil Poetry - Tarzana Joe

7/15/2005 06:09:00 PM  
Blogger sugar said...

Operation Pheonix is still a dirty word in political discourse, perhaps for good reasons considering its excesses

It got a bad rap because the Thieu gov started using it for its own ends by assasination its political opponents instead of the enemy. A Vietnamese communist vice-foreign minister, Nguyen Co Thach, remarked after the war that the Phonix program had weakened the Viet Cong, helping to assassinate or compromise as much as 95% of the communist cadres in some areas of South Vietnam

7/15/2005 06:22:00 PM  
Blogger Stephen Tyler said...

Wretchard said:

" ... counter organizing within Islamic communities is an idea which is at least worth thinking about. And why not? Radical Islam has planted thousands of cells within the West. Shall we not return the favor?"

I have been following this talk about infiltrating the Islamofascists community for several days now. (Actually, I am very new to this community. You will have to forgive my ignorance of previous posts and more, my willingness to boldly comment. I did recognize almost immediately that this is a close knit community.)

Either you all are very young or you have lived your lives in impenetrable security. And I am not making a judgment here. I am just saying that if you had ever lived in your car and purchased your breakfast with the quarters in your ashtray, you would not coddle such infantile fantasies. Come on, Wretchard. This is a brilliant project you have going here, and you are a fantastic writer –but, what planet are you living on? Have you read the websites, the articles, the books that explain how we are pursuing the war on terror? In a word – it’s working. We are winning!!!!! Well, yes there have been 5000 bombings in the last year. Many men, women and children have died. But, don’t be distracted by the deaths of 50 people in London and those poor children in Iraq. Horrible as that might be, we are winning. I repeat, it is horrible. I actually cry at night. It is horrible. But, we are winning. What we need – and we need just one single thing – is the support of the media worldwide. We have the tools and the technology. We have the manpower – highly trained manpower. We have stopped al Queda dead in its tracks. We have Osama bin Laden locked up. Locked up, not in our prison, but in a prison of his own making, He is pissing in a tin can, eating rats and living in a cave in some god-forsaken hell-hole. No cell phone. No fax. No telephone. No computer. No friends. Use this tool and your great way with words to get that thing we need – the press.

7/15/2005 06:33:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Stephen, sometimes I feel just that way, too. Then five minutes later, I see a ghastly war-without-end. It's very strange. There's simply not enough insight into the enemy's true mind.

7/15/2005 06:43:00 PM  
Blogger Tony said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

7/15/2005 06:43:00 PM  
Blogger Annoy Mouse said...

Nahncee,
The big edifice, I am not even sure shat they call it, is built over and around an asteroid that was found in the desert and had become the object of its own worship and religion if you will. How odd is it that every Muslim edifice has been built over the site of someone elses religion. If this isn't the very idea of a violent conquering theology, I do not what is.

Philosophically, it reminds one of the Yucatan invaders who ate Anistasi tribesman, then shat the human excrement upon its slain leaders. (TMI?)

7/15/2005 06:58:00 PM  

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