The Return of the Ripper
The bodies of young women began to appear in Basra six weeks ago. First there was a group of three, then two, and last week the corpses of six were found, each victim riddled by gunshots and left on the street to die in pools of blood. The Iraqi police say they have no strong leads. But it is an open secret in the port city why they died.
They worked as prostitutes and their killers are widely believed to be one of the city's armed militias. In recent months they have become increasingly violent in their campaign to enforce a strict interpretation of the social code of Islam.
The Telegraph's described the local citizenry's reaction to the 21st century equivalent of Jack the Ripper's campaign of terror.
No one wanted to talk about the details of the murders. "I do not want to be killed," one man said. But another told how he had been in a house of "belly dancers" recently in order to drink alcohol - an illicit activity in Basra - when a dozen masked men broke down the front door. "They started hitting the girls and shooting against the walls and breaking the furniture," he said. "They bought boxes of vodka and beer outside to smash them. One of the girls ran outside and she had stones thrown at her. "Everyone in the place was too frightened to help."
Then they described the British Army's. "The British, who are responsible for the security of the sector, have refused to intervene, saying that it is a domestic matter of political and law and order issues. Political parties have been largely silent." These murders are taking place in part of Iraq that has virtually been untouched by that fountain of all evil, American occupation and the insurgency. It underscores the importance of organizing resistance cells within the Islamic community to fight the internal oppressors of Islam, a point made in an earlier Belmont Club post. Unless people can be made willing to resist the murder of their daughters, they can hardly be expected to help the infidel escape his fate.
It is not enough, as the British Army has done, to look on at this mayhem from the outside in, blinded by the illusion that these executions are just one more quaint ethnic practice that the guilt-ridden West has no right to criticize; that it is one more expression of identity that one is obliged to tolerate, whether these sanguinary events happen in British-patrolled Basra or the British city of Leeds.The wellsprings of terrorism arise from certain tendencies within Islamic society itself; and unless the weeds are pruned the flowers will never grow, until we find ourselves alone at midnight in the Garden of Evil.
520 Comments:
Neo-neocon has previously linked to this article about a different approach to multi-culturalism:
When General George Napier was governor of Sind province in India in the 1840s, he vigorously enforced the ban on suttee, the practice of throwing a Hindu widow on to the funeral pyre of her husband. A delegation of Brahmins came to him to explain that he must not prohibit the practice at the funeral of a particular maharaja, as it was an important cultural custom.
“If it is your custom to burn a widow alive, please go on,” Napier responded.
“We have a custom in our country that whoever burns a person alive shall be hanged. While you prepare the funeral pyre, my carpenters will be making the gallows to hang all of you. Let us all act according to our customs” The Brahmins thought better of it, and the widow lived.
The Dutch blog Zacht Ei has a link to a Douglas Adams story about a galactic race who were 'nice' in every respect, other than that they were unalterably opposed to the existence of any other races.
"The people of Krikkit," said His High Judgmental Supremacy,
Judiciary Pag, LIVR (the Learned, Impartial and Very Relaxed)
Chairman of the Board of Judges at the Krikkit War Crimes Trial,
"are, well, you know, they're just a bunch of real sweet guys,
you know, who just happen to want to kill everybody. Hell, I feel
the same way some mornings. Shit.
"OK," he continued, swinging his feet up on to the bench in front
of him and pausing a moment to pick a thread off his Ceremonial
Beach Loafers, "so you wouldn't necessarily want to share a
Galaxy with these guys."
This was true.
The Krikkit attack on the Galaxy had been stunning. Thousands and
thousands of huge Krikkit warships had leapt suddenly out of
hyperspace and simultaneously attacked thousands and thousands of
major worlds, first seizing vital material supplies for building
the next wave, and then calmly zapping those worlds out of
existence.
The Galaxy, which had been enjoying a period of unusual peace and
prosperity at the time, reeled like a man getting mugged in a
meadow.
noprisoners,
First we should convince people that counterorganizing within Islamic communities is an idea which is at least worth thinking about. And why not? Radical Islam has planted thousands of cells within the West. Shall we not return the favor?
And if the concept is really a good one, there will be no shortage of guys who can think up ways to carry it out. First the idea, then the deed.
This article about the monster Mohammed Sadique Khan, who loved death more than his own babies, ends on a hopeful note:
At the local mosques yesterday, Khan - the oldest of the bombers - was condemned. A neighbour, Anaar Sajjad, a 19-year-old student at the nearby Islamic Institute in the Savile Town district, said: "The imams have told us that everything they have done is not Islamic. Simply being a Muslim does not make him Islamic. In Islam even animals have rights, so how can it be right to kill a human being?"
However, I'm not sure what we can do to support this, or even how to gauge its accuracy or generalizability.
This article is absolutely remarkable. If accurate, the four Labour MPs who are Muslim are to be commended for being unswerving in their condemnation of the bombers and their motivations. MP Shahid Malik, who represents the home district where police raids have been taking place, went so far as to say: “Condemnation is not enough...British Muslims must confront the voices of evil head on.”
And yet this message is compromised by non-Muslim Labourites:
John Denham, a former minister, warned that many Muslims felt socially alienated. A response was needed “not just from within the Muslim community, but from the majority community as a whole”.
And even within Number 10:
“We need to get across harder that we are establishing Muslim schools in this country,” says this aide [to Tony Blair]. “We need to get across that have given $3bn to the Palestinian Authority at Gleneagles last week."
More Muslim schools and more money for the PA? Now there's a strategy to combat terrorism!
Where are the feminists? Donna Hughes, a well-known women's rights professor from the University of Rhode Island, was on C-Span the other day, and what she said blew my mind. She said that she tried to contact feminist groups to join a chorus condemning the Iranian government for their abuses againt women, and the response she received was an adamant "NO". You want to know why?
Because that would vindicate the Bush Administration. That would grease the slippery slope to war with Iran. She was told to her face that the Leftist agenda of feminists, who live in the west and have everything, trumped the safety and humanity of women in the east, from whom everything has been taken away. "No, I'm sorry, I can't condemn rape, I can't bring attention to slavery. My goodness, that would help Bush!"
The Left, feminists ferchrissake, have forsaken the women in the Muslim world to eternal hell. Let their shame never be forgotten.
Aristides,
I posted an equally astounding quote that Wretchard found some time ago.
I'll see if I can find it.
I'd be willing to bet that some Muslim leaders see the oncoming train wreck and are, within the limits of their own political and social conditions, desperate for change. But the only thing in the Liberal institutional repertoire is to hand them money and an apology. Whether the solution fits the problem or not, that's what they're going to get from the Liberal establishment.
But what they really need are guys who are willing to provide them with moral and practical support in standing up to the thugs in the community. Hell I'd give any Muslim willing to stand up to these Jihadis safe houses, secure internet access, permits to carry. That'd even the odds some. But above all, you'd have to find guys willing to go semi-underground with them. It's not dissimilar to fighting the Mob. What are the tools there? Witness protection. Undercover operations. Busting up the breweries and speakeasies. Taking out the Mr. Bigs with whatever rap you can invent. There's a military aspect to fighting radical Islam, but there's also an counter-organizational dimension to it.
But before you can get to that point you have to brush past the Left, which has taken these characters not only under its wing but into its bosom.
Maybe
"Return of the Taliban"
would have been an ok title?
or
"Shia can be Taliban Too"
---
Shia Taliban Redux
We went to Iraq to rid it of vast stockpiles of WMD.. But no vast stockpiles.. We went to Iraq to rid the people of an oppresive regime.. Yet the killing of women and children continues.. What happened to the aim of democracy for the Iraqi people ?? Is this what they were talking about ?? Is this what the new Iraqi Constitution looks like ?? Do we now turn our back, lower our chins, leave and slink back to our respective countries?? And for what ?? To appease Sens. Kennedy, Boxer, Pelosi, Kerry, and Durbin ?? To trade the end of the war in Iraq, for the easy confirmation of the next next Supreme Justices ?? Or is this what the new leadership in Iraq wants there country to aspire to ?? My friends, is there just no way to lure these people into the modern world ?? This shit, like this, just makes me really want to rethink the whole idea of being an isolationist !!
Great points, Wretchard, but is it so easy to brush past the Left, when your program would raise more howls than Gitmo & Abu ghraib combined?
Also, I would like to invite you over to my latest post for a little thought experiment. I don't know that it provides any answers, but I personally am having a hard time figuring out how to deal with the Left.
This is not an isolated phenomenon. When Kwasi Mfume of the NAACP praises Castro while Black Cubans are violently oppressed, when Amnesty International shouts "gulag" over Gitmo while China's thugs brutalize their villagers, when the ACLU agitates for terrorist access to our courts while Nick Berg's head is being sawed off...
A disease festers in our society, and its appetite for destruction is growing even as our enemies sharpen their knives. What were once noble efforts have faltered and atrophied into malignancies that are spreading, and their cynicism and guilt threaten to pull the entire temple down on our heads.
I do not understand how to organize a "counterinsurgency" that will eliminate the threat to the West, for even without terrorism we are dealing with an incompatible organizing principle in Arabism and in Islamism. The family is the microcosm of the society, and in the Arab world tyranny perculates through every level of society. Even if materialism and moderate Islam were to take over, the subjugation of women, rampant tribalism, and religious supremacy will remain dispositive in the overall strategic posture of the middle east. I have no proof whatsoever of this, other than instinct, but I think it will get a lot worse before it gets better. Our civilization will clash, and I am not sure if any part of their culture is salvageable.
To me, we will fight the good fight and hopefully maintain our idealistic illusions by dotting every "i" and crossing every "t", bending over backwards to try to fix them and help them and give them one more try, but in the end it will come to war. The most important thing is to keep our history linear and our self-perception abstract, because it is going to come, as it always has, to violent evolution. We have what it takes, and our rallying principles are the best there are; nevertheless, we must brace ourselves for the worst.
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Bounty hunters.
Like the Norwegian dude hired.
We could pay them via PayPal.
Track down and kill the killers.
Put me down for $25.00.
I don't think there's any magic bullet here. It's "no holds barred" wrestling. A lot has already been accomplished which is probably why we are debating an attack on London which in World War 2 would comprise a single days V2 or V1 casualties. The Navy's no longer parked in the Persian Gulf. The US no longer has a Cold War force, etc.
But, as others have pointed out, there's a heck of a way to go. But it's almost like what happens when you do a cancer biopsy. One discovery leads to another, and you wonder whether you'll ever get to the end of it. But the alternative was never to have looked. And that's what the Left would have wanted. Never to have looked.
The fact that we can discuss things in this degree of granularity means we've come a ways from the days of innocence. There is no way in which we are weaker today than we were on September 10, 2001. We just didn't realize how big the problem was. All through the 90s, those on watch pretended it was not there. But what you don't know can hurt you.
Ah yes, the measurement problem. The only way to know the state of a system is to test it, poke it, and observe the results. Before this, all conjectures on the properties of a particular system are probabilistic and (dare I say it) academic.
Wretchard is right. By going into the Middle East we have collapsed the wave function, have drawn out real data, and can begin to see patterns and properties that we would never have been able to guess. We have set up the laboratory, and we are going to school.
Perhaps I get pessimistic. Maybe there is hope for peace.
It's does appear that Iraq is slipping somewhat from democracy back to the dark ages of hard core Islamic theocracy.
Certianly, some new methods must be implemented. The "resistance cell" is a good idea. As for ccw permit - don't most Iraqis have guns (and bombs)?
Now, as for prostitutes being killed, this gets into a sticky situation. If prostitution is illegal in Basra then protecting them may appear counter intuitive and illegal (I personally don't know if it is illegal). Further, we don't know the real story. I would guess prostitution does happen in Iraq (as in most parts of the world) but the smart prostitutes must have enforcers to help collect revenue from the occasional nonpaying customer. Also, these killers of prostitutes maybe trying to extort payment from them (the old protection racket - "see what could happen to you if you don't pay"). And, it not inconceivable that the Basra police are in on the game.
I say use Wretchard "resistance cells" for the most egregious crimes (car bombs and the like). But, use them carefully at the law enforcement level. Now, if the prostitute killing problem escalates then it would be time to use the "resistance cell" against the killers.
If any of you have better suggestion feel free to post them.
Deuceboy: Thank you for your service. Civil Affairs just may be where the battle is won.
Sitting is for sissies.
Wretchard: In addition to being able to better define them, I was wondering if you have thought on the added benefit of us having the opportunity to better define ourselves.
Before OEF and OIF, our engagements in the Muslim world were ambiguous at best, even to us, and so they were freely defined by the enemy at his will. Desert Storm became Saddam's victory, Mogadishu, etc. However, if (when) Iraq is finished and we pull out, the argument that we are invaders and conquerers will butt up against a huge mountain of reality. As Seinfeld once said, "that's one pretty big matzah ball hanging out there."
With Al'Jazeera and Al'Arabiya taking the easy anti-American line, they have gained access to otherwise repressive and insular places, and the public, from what I've read, is hooked. Accordingly, they have put Iraq and the treacherous Americans on the front page. Up till now the coverage has been scathing, except for that one day, in January, when nobody could editorialize away the reality that was flooding through the screen. On that day the Arab world tuned in to see destruction, but saw the purple finger instead.
I don't know, I have been thinking that as Iraq gets better, the day to day stuff will fade, and the overall story line will sink in to the millions of viewers who watch these channels religiously. The regimes that embraced the anti-American satellite media will be stuck when that same media begins to show a hopeful and decent Iraq rising out of the ashes. In a sense, these outlets have become the Trojan Horse, with Truth stuck inside waiting until nightfall to sack the city. Now that these regimes have taken Al'Jazeera into their bosom, there is no turning back.
At the very least, the dissenting voices will have a ballast to hold on to as they set sail against the wind.
The violence on the "ladies" was a human rights violation.. We cannot in clear concsience deplor what the U.N. Piecekeepers are doing, and sit idly by and avoid taking action on this activity, which seems to be a regular occurrance now.. Give em an inch, and they'll take a mile.. If these vigilante want to dispense justice, then they should abide by a civil code to do it.. Execution without trial is murder.. The Taliban used these same restrictions and tactics to "win over" the people in Afghanistan..
The "West" wasnt won in a day, and Judge Roy Been seems to be unavailable, but lynch-mobs are not the answer for liberal actions.. If it were, I'd be all for it.. Deuce, I also want to thank you for being a Great American..
Ha, DB, if your going to talk like that in Academia, better bring the smelling salt.
Congratulations, David, you've racked up three points for your deft use of all those clever (and topical!) buzz words that Leftists so love to hear!
Rush Limbaugh, Vietnam, and Christians?! Damn, you're really cookin'.
"If you don't look at facts you can always be right."
Well, I guess so!
Hey, it's a great time to be a woman from the West! Check out the agenda for NOW's big feminist conference, which took place recently in my city of Nashville:
"It's that time again—feminist activists from around the country will gather in Nashville, Tenn., for the 2005 National NOW Conference the weekend of July 1-3. Home of the Grand Old Opry and the Country Music Hall of Fame, Nashville is a rollicking good place for NOW to convene.
Fun aside, important business is on the conference agenda. Participants will concentrate on strategy and skill-building to counter George W. Bush and his right-wing cronies, including a focus on electoral organizing at the NOW PAC Political Institute. The NOW PAC will also hold a silent auction to benefit election-organizing work, with lots of valuable feminist paraphernalia up for grabs."
Surely they will protest the abuse of women in Muslim societies, the gang rapes and honor killings that claim the lives of so many girls in the repressive countries. Even if only to feed the lizard?
Nope. Not one speaker, the entire weekend, spoke on the abuse of women under Islamist law or in Muslim communities. Here is a list of what they did talk about:
1. commitment to ending racism in reproductive rights.
2. Award presented to Tillie Black Bear from South Dakota, presumably for surviving her name.
3. organizing a "number of pivotal strikes and boycotts."
4. celebrating their attack on the "good old boys club" that keeps places like the Augusta National Golf Club closed to women.
And it just keeps going. More like a victory parade for things past than any agenda for women's futures.
I lied, they did touch on the repression of women in religious societies. Courageously, they had a signing of the book "God's Brothel," which reveals the gruesome facts about Bible-based polygamy in North America.
If they had anything about Iran, or Pakistan, or even the British Muslim honor killings, I couldn't find it. I guess their time was too filled up with slapping each other on the back. At least they made it.
deuceboy431,
I'm sure your experience will serve you well when you return, if you still want to be a HS Bio Teacher.
Thank you for your service!
Neoconservative, excellent illustration.
What a creepy story, though.
My apologies to Neuroconservative. I misspelled his handle.
"Regarding counter insurgency cells, theres really no shortage of recruits in Iraq. There are Shia Revenge Brigades off all sorts that are itching to get payback in the Sunni Triangle. There are more organised militias like Wolf Brigade. With militias though, they tend to work along side the US and Iraqi military. How the military does counterinsurgency is not the same as the CIA. In Vietnam(under Phoenix), infiltrators were called Provincial Reconaiisance Units (PRU) and were trained to dress, walk , talk and think like the VC. The CIA actually also called them Counter Terror Teams (CTT) back in the day. Its a totally unconventional yet effective kind of counter warfare."
The British also did this in Malaysia and Kenya, especially the former. They'd focus on turning insurgents, particularly through good treatment and brainwashing in prison, then creating their own counter-insurgency gangs to tear it apart from the inside. They obviously walked and talked like the enemy, but worked for a different master. The problem is of course with 24/7 news coverage and moralistic warfare [that only we're expected to fight], I doubt we're prepared to handle the bad press. Operation Pheonix is still a dirty word in political discourse, perhaps for good reasons considering its excesses - but not for a lack of effectiveness.
Iraq is more and more a police problem. Some of the criminality may be traced to our Occupation, but not much of it.
The culture of the country does not lend itself to our policing it.
Cops on the street need more than one or two phrases of the language to be effective.
It is their country, give it back to them. It will never be Des Moines.
Wretchard,
Public opinion in Iraq is increasingly against the terrorists and the Bathist remnants, even in Sunni areas. That is largely because the Iraqis have seen the terror they bring, and felt it within their homes. For too long Arabs have lived with their "fantasy ideology", but faced with the reality of Islamic terror, they are waking up to reality. They are waking up to the need for law & order.
Perhaps the best thing the Brits can do in Basra, in the long term, is hold back. As long as there aren't any Mini-Saddam's set to take over and upset the nascent democracy in the region, some shock therapy may be called for.
Many Americans believe that Europeans also live in a fantasy-land, where supra-national peace can be had without supra-national military force. The Europeans were never trusted with the opportunity to forge a peace on their own (perhaps rightly, considering their track record). Fifty years later we continue to reap the whirlwind on that one. Maybe we shouldn't make the same mistake with the Arabs. We can't run their countries indefinately. They're going to have to learn how to do it, but first they must learn WHY it must be done.
These guy are morally pure. No prostitutes allowed, instead Islam encourages rape. Any and all females are fair game. Less espensive that way too.
Females who are raped are then discarded because it's their own fault for being so alluring in their black shrouds. Main premise -- men are never responsible for their actions.
Flip Wilson was ahead of his time when he said, the devil made him do it. Only now, the devils are the perps.
An interesting article in the NY Times.
John Deutch, deputy secretary of defense from 1994 to 1995 and director of central intelligence from 1995 to 1996, writes
"...We should not shirk from quick military action for the purpose of saving lives that are in immediate danger. For example, the decision not to intervene early to prevent mass murder in Rwanda was a major failure. But we should not be lured into intervention that has as its driving purpose the replacement of despotic regimes with systems of government more like our own. It is not that the purpose is unworthy, but rather that it is unlikely to succeed.
Moreover, in trying to achieve regime change or nation-building, we tend to rely on military force rather than diplomacy, trade and economic assistance. The American military, the best in the world, is built to fight and win wars; we can ask the Marine Corps to defeat Republican Guard divisions or destroy rebel strongholds in Falluja, but maintaining local security, brokering political alliances and running local water systems, hospitals, power plants and schools are not major parts of its mission or training. Reshaping our military to take on the activities that the Pentagon euphemistically calls "stability and security" operations will come at a cost - both in terms of potentially compromising the war-fighting capacity of our troops and in diverting the resources needed to support the civic action that underlies nation-building. ..."
And as I fore told months ago he calls for
"...Our best strategy now is a prompt withdrawal plan consisting of clearly defined political, military and economic elements. Politically, the United States should declare its intention to remove its troops and urge the Iraqi government and its neighbors to recognize the common regional interest in allowing Iraq to evolve peacefully and without external intervention. The first Iraqi election under the permanent constitution, planned for Dec. 15, is an appropriate date for beginning the pullout. ..."
And even I support Senator Levin's call for the creation of Standards that we and the Iraqis need to meet.
Creating a matrix for Victory.
This campaign will be successful with the General Public.
Defined Victory
Victory will be enough to swing the middle, and that is all that is needed. Bush will find it difficult to tell US that the Military and his Admin have failed, when his opponents claim he has succeeded
Once agian, more evidence of people who say "Help us, but don't change our culture."
Uh-Huh. That is like saying "Get me back on the road but don't fix my flat tire."
Note that this same phenomenoa is seen in the U.S. Various cultures have to be propped up with massive welfare payments, abortion clinics, free medical care, gun control laws, etc, but must remain precious in every way and thus inviolate.
Jakita: You have come to an obvious conclusion. Clearly, the answer to many countries problems is re-colonization. This is not only un-pc but very frightening to many. After all, who would want to take over and run France and Germany?
If you want to get an idea how completely betrayed and sold into slavery the American people are the by the US government, here's an article on in today's washington times about how the Senate shuns attempt to add agents on the US borders.
If you want to get an idea of how the American people feel about it---here's another front Page article from today's washington times that says "15,000 volunteers will man observation posts and conduct foot and horseback patrols this fall along the Mexican border from Texas to California and in seven states along the Canadian border in a new Minuteman vigil to protest what organizers call the government's lax immigration enforcement policies. "
Feminists, like the rest of the movements that make up the left, have as their goal the destruction of democracy, freedom, free trade and capitalism.
However, if we do not maintain a base--a fortress--in the western desert, near the Hashemites (who predate the scism and are thus acceptable in Sunni & Shia both) but in the Iraq--a base for which we've already paid in the historical and universal currency of blood sacrifice--we'll have passed up the greatest peacemaking, world-war preventing, life-saving opportunity of all time.
So look for the usual suspects to be hard agin' it. Everybody from our DC Demcoats to our surface-skittering slogan-voters to old Mr. Beezlebub hisself.
Sorry--I was speaking to the John Deutch essay, quoted by rat, above.
They are calling for a complete withdrawel. Bushes position will be for the bases and a stay behind/ forward deployed force.
Bush & Company should prevail, but his time will be about up by then. Next round won't happen until after '08, if ever.
Assuming no major US Terror Incident
ot but part of an old thread
Just heard on Fox News of a northeastern cable company, a regional distribution net, that is requesting blogger video. Off the street reporting, commentator lady is afraid that 'normal' people from 'off the street' could commentate.
How quaint
A lot of the posters here, and to some extent Wretchard, need to remember the ultimate goal of our invasion of Iraq. The ultimate goal is not to bring democracy to Iraq/the MidEast, or to reform Muslim societies. The ultimate goal is the security of the United States and United States' interests. Bringing democracy to Iraq/the MidEast is seen as the best longterm means to achieve that end. We need to keep our eyes focused on that goal. That means that we should not interfere in every aspect of their society that we don't approve of, as distasteful as they might be, whether that be pledging 10 year old girls in marriage, or these types of actions.
In the Garden of Evil, Baby
It is ironic that the goals of al Zarquawi and Coalition Forces may be merging into equal and opposite directions. Al Qaeda in Iraq, according to an intercepted message, is trying to drive a wedge between pro-coalition Shiites and Bathist Sunnis. Calls for instigating anti-fundamentalist counterinsurgency cells completes the square. As much as I agree with this methodology, I cannot help but be aware that al Zaquawi’s attempt to foment civil war may be the very key to his downfall.
Whether the British command considers vigilante acts against “sinners” to be just or otherwise, some civil authority must condemn the methods of terror that are being used. No more would civil authorities in Britain or the United States allow acts of vigilantism against Moslems, than they should be allowed to repress or radicalize civilians in a war zone.
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Wretchard--
Given the tribal nature of Iraq, would any of those men defend women who are strangers to them, paid to perform but otherwise of no interest? And for sure they wouldn't tolerate one of "their" women participating in something like that.
And then there is the paralyzing effect of extreme violence. It paralyses the normal aggressive response to being attacked so that communities, families, and individuals are left to wallow in their own hopelessness because of the "global" nature of the dilemma.
Finally, there is the dangerous multi-culti attitudes of the standers-by, in this case the British. They no longer hve the stomach for the kinds of behavior that Neuroconservative pointed to. That's a vanished self-assurance.
And God help the poor women if Western feminism makes a toehold as it has in the Netherland's Muslim communities, where Hirsi Ali is seen as a troublemaker.
Jakita from your mouth to God's ears: There does seem to be a new Imperialism on the horizon, though it is not interested in claiming or keeping territory. See this, from a newspaper column in a paper in Glasgow:
America The World's Last Great Victorian
david
CYA, lifer bureaucrats know the drill.
The CIA has been quite lost for quite a while. Think back to Belgrade and the bombing of the Chinese Embassy. Then there was the Israel spy, a mole so to speak. WMD, well the whole world was wrong about that one.
DoD has never been a careerist kingdom, nah, never.
David,
The Italian Job got all fowled up because of compartmentalization between the Italian civil authorities and the Italian intelligence bureau. The civies didn’t know about the snatch and grab.
US “spokesmen” blowing the cover off of their Italian counterparts was reprehensible. The game requires sucking it up and taking your licks without implicating your cohorts. The mafia would have done better.
Since I don't remember verbatim Golda Meir's quote, I'll paraphrase: We will have peace when the Muslim world loves it's children more then it hates ours.
Wretchard submits that "The wellsprings of terrorism arise from certain tendencies within Islamic society itself", and suggests that injecting counter-Islamist cells into the Islamic world will aid in the reformation of Islam. The previous post entertained the notion that the Islamic world can create this reformation from within itself. A commenter hoped that the impetus for the reform would come from the atrocities committed by AQ in Iraq.
I won't dispute the possibility of such a plan, but I don't have faith in it's probability.
We have two major problems.
The first being, as Wretchard has pointed out numerous times, the interfernece of the Left in the War on Terror (or more bluntly the Riyadh-Berkley Axis). The infestation of our political structure by the Left makes fighting the War at any level harder expoentially. If the MSM did not slander the news out of, and regarding Iraq, would public opinion for it's support have declined so much? How much more leeway would the CINC have to fight the war with a majority of the nation publicly committed to the fight?
Any efforts on our part to support a cell driven Reformation of Islam would be squshed by the Dhimmicrats at first light.
We can't defeat the Islamists while we have the Left's "humanism" lodged between our shoulder blades.
Secondly, history doesn't support a revulsion for the Islamist's actions from within the umma. My first example is the degradation the Palestians have repeatedly subjected themselves to by spitting on every peace deal that has been brokered, while at the same time, being short-changed by their "pan-Arabic" brothers. My second is the murder of these prostitutes: not 2 years after Hussein and HIS barbarism were chased out of power, and the local govering power willingly chooses the same barbarism.
I don't have an answer for the first issue. If I were rich, I would buy media outlets. If I had political power, I would demand that academia be cleaned of it's 5th column. Those conservatives with wealth and political power don't seem inclined to take this approach.
Neither do I have a working solution for the second problem. My gut play would be to destroy the kaaba, while assasinating every prominent cleric that preached jihad. Then use VOA to put out the message, "Islam has failed. We welcome peaceful people into the modern world".
Let Muslims decide how to interpet that, and be prepared to deal with it.
Perhaps that would bring matters to a head with the Left as well.
Because the shame of it is that the Bush gamble might have a shot if the Left actually gave a damn about human freedom.
Terror vs Transparency
Perhaps our greatest weakness is that we in Western democracies live in a bi-polar world of pro and con’s. Such polarization is violently resisted in the Islamic world, even the so called moderates know better than to speak up.
In a famous case several years ago, the FBI prosecuted an off shore bank that was involved in money laundering, only to find out that it was wholly controlled by the CIA. But with compartmentalization, these mishaps can be expected from time to time. US security has been criticized for not “connecting the dots”, so to remedy this, law enforcement and intelligence were put under the umbrella of a national intelligence office. This threatens the use of compartmentalization and with it the possibility of “plausible deniability”.
In the highest reaches of government there are legions of ideological vigilantes who would gladly inform our enemies of our covert operations should they see any reason to oppose them. So the question remains, can a war on terror be waged while maintaining total transparency?
Annoy m,
RE: Transparency
As I posed in a previous thread, Would Truman have been allowed to use the 1st nuke, if the "loyal oposition" of that time acting as they do today?
Clearly, the second nuke would have been out of the question.
if you want to "hurt" islam...
simply nuke the black meteor.....
it would destroy islam....
minimum loss of live....
just a suggestion...
want to destroy Judaism?
nuke the west wall
A much more realistic scenario
Good for the goose
good for the gander
desert rat said...
want to destroy Judaism?
nuke the west wall
A much more realistic scenario
Good for the goose
good for the gander
newsflash.. the TEMPLE was destroyed... 2 times..
learn history....
want to destroy Judaism?
nuke the west wall
A much more realistic scenario
Good for the goose
good for the gander
Desert Rat, seriously, learn history, the destruction of the Temple actually helped turn Judasim from a temple cult into religion/faith that stresses good works, the enemy's religion islam required it's people to make the Hajii... if that is destroyed it would cause saudia arabia to no longer be the center of the faith..
curb your emotion learn history... the Jewish temple was destroyed, the "fragment" of the western wall is a RETAINING wall... the temple MOUNT is the stolen occupied JEWISH lands that the MOSLEMS control...
I could have said, blow the dome.....
The economist Timur Kuran has written about something called "preference falsification," in which support for an ideology appears strong, but only because everyone fears (1) the punishment of the ruler for dissent, and (2) that he is one of only a small number of people who supports change. That latter effect exists because everyone publicly lies about his preferences. To use W's language, this is why people must be "made willing" to stand up. Once public support for the regime cracks, it collapses suddenly. (Think Iran in 1979 and E. Europe in 1989.)
People forget that when Saddam Hussein fell there was delirium in the streets outside of the Sunni triangle. That sentiment was invisible before the invasion because of the terror apparatus. Perhaps Iraq, and Muslim societies everywhere, are eager to be rid of the sorts of people who car-bomb children, but aren't persuaded that the deal for a society without fanaticism is closed yet. The average person in Iraq, and in many Islamic societies, is used to seeing the thugs (in clerical garb or otherwise) run things, and doesn't want to stick his head up until he's confident he might live to tell about it.
desert rat said...
want to destroy Judaism?
nuke the west wall
A much more realistic scenario
Good for the goose
good for the gander...
one last tidbit...
europe has for 1600 yrs burned jews, torah and synagoges.. over 9,000,000 jews and thousands of worship centers and torahs
the moslem world as murder only 100,000 of thousands, and have looted the jews for 1100 yrs, destroying the "wall" would do jack shit to Judaism..
Jews only in 1967 got to actually pray at the wall for the 1st time in decades, the jordan destroyed 100's of historic jewish sites in jerusalem, took historic (2000yr) tomb stones to make latrines.. the palestinians destroyed to the ground the tomb of Joseph... naw, the erasure of jewish historic sites is all to common to jews, and guess what? dont mean jack shit....
but to islam which has no problem in erasing anyone else's history, it would be a punch in the gut...
btw, enjoy christmas in that arab city called bethlehem, lol........
or that historic arab city nazerith.... lol
Well, you're the one calling for a nuclear strike. This tit-for-tat you suggest has all the hallmarks of a blood feud- between Jews and Muslims. Is that really what you want?
no, i want the west to hit islam... save it for when they nuke a western city... then use it as an option
if they could they would have...
And Judaism hasn't died. What makes you think Islam will?
cause islam aint judaism...
islam REQUIRES the visit to the black meteor for worship.... it's a basic
Nathan said...
nathan... nice name, know where your name comes from?
->wetting myself laughing so hard.
"the destruction of the Temple actually helped turn Judasim from a temple cult into religion/faith that stresses good works" (PRFA)
I'm still floating the idea of the destruction of the Kaaba as a shock to Islam.
If Muslims can no longer make the haj, then how can they live by the Koran's strictures without reinterpeting them?
Once reinterpetation starts, where does it end?
Maybe that's what we already have and it's completely silly of me to try to persuade either party otherwise.
naw nathan (the jewish prophet) if the jews hated the arabs as the arabs hate the jews, christians, pagans etc, would already have a glass shield over the arab world...
if the jews really hated the arabs millions of arabs would aready be dead
if the USA were hit the way israel was/is, you'd see millions dead....
naw, i suggested the destruction of a symbol, not mass murder... the arabs have been mass murdering.... oh that's right, the arabs complaint of stealing land is a capital crime, it aint murder to blow up jews at a shopping mall...
I'm still floating the idea of the destruction of the Kaaba as a shock to Islam.
If Muslims can no longer make the haj, then how can they live by the Koran's strictures without reinterpeting them?
Once reinterpetation starts, where does it end?
can it be any worse than it's reinterpetation that calls for murder?
No nukes. I ain't a "nuke Mecca" guy.
Just want to make THAT clear.
"People forget that when Saddam Hussein fell there was delirium in the streets outside of the Sunni triangle. That sentiment was invisible before the invasion because of the terror apparatus. Perhaps Iraq, and Muslim societies everywhere, are eager to be rid of the sorts of people who car-bomb children, but aren't persuaded that the deal for a society without fanaticism is closed yet."
I say this as someone who supports our effort to democratize/liberaize, to an extent: We can't run our foreign policy on hopes and dreams.
Nathan said...
no, i want the west to hit islam... save it for when they nuke a western city...
So, you want a nuclear holocaust. You want Islamists, or whoever, to obliterate an American or European city so you can have a justification for returning the favor upon an Arab city....
no, nathan (great jewish name) when the arabs/islamist NUKE us (and they are trying) rather than murder millions of innocent moslems, nuke thier SYMBOL...
I did not say, nuke cairo, i did not say hit population centers..... but remember nathan (nice jewish name) the islamists want to MURDER you... maybe cause you have a JEWISH name, maybe because you dont accept their superiority... either way, last time i checked it wasnt jews/israel trying to blow up the world trade center..
porker
You miss the point entirely
It is a MAD world and Israel is not immune to a retaliatory strike
The US will not launch preemptive Nuclear strike against any one.
No, truth be known, if what you say is straight and true, that Mohamedism will self destruct at a single stroke. Then there is one way to go. Sharon has a couple dozen warheads. He should launch today. The 'Western' world will hail his genius, after the fact, a few years after.
...desert rat said...
porker
that's mister swine please...
...You miss the point entirely It is a MAD world and Israel is not immune to a retaliatory strike
gee tell me when israel has been hit with attacks and how do you determine what is "retaliatory" since the attacks to murder babies has never stopped...
I dont think we should worry that the islamists will really really really really really really really want to murder israel, since they really really really really really already say they want to murder every israeli man woman and child...
... Sharon has a couple dozen warheads. He should launch today. The 'Western' world will hail his genius, after the fact, a few years after....
israel aint allowed by the west to even build a wall...
and last time i checked, the world still hasnt revolked it's scolding of israel for taking out saddam nuke plant before it went online....
nathan the jewish prophet said...
Destroying the Kaaba is probably going to happen
Probably. Let's just hope it's not as a result of the nuclear holocaust prescribed by our friend Pork here...
that's mr pork please....
is it a holocaust to murder a rock? i think not... nathan, too much emotion, not enuff logic... the rock baby..... not people, the rock... a small russian suitcase nuke could do it, do it when the black rock is empty (save lives)....
oh i forgot... when jews destroy property it is a crime against humanity... so if the rock was destroyed, it is the same as the holocaust?
6,000,000 jews = one black rock
sounds fair.....
At this point, we should all shut up about nukes. G*d only knows what will happen if ONE of those goes off. You think the target nation is going to be acting rationally at that point? AQ isn't even a nation; there is NO retalitory strike against them.
.............
We all agree that Islam is it functions today is a security threat to the West. We saw it in NYC, the Aussies saw it in Mali, the Israelis see it every day.
Is there a possibility of reforming Islam?
The idea of destroying the kaaba as a goad to reform is about the complete opposite of what Wretchard is suggesting.
Nathan brought up the likelihood that the Bush Doctrine doesn't last past 08. Wretchard's cells need long past that. Considering our political situation, I don't think the gamble works.
What else do we have to "help" Islam reform as necessary to function peacefully with us?
Nathan,
If they were truly wise, I'd have a better idea then blowing up the kaaba just to wake the umma up from the 7th century.
I don't think we can win a slow war against Islamism. I think we could, IF we didn't have an entrenched influence that didn't want us to win.
I've heard conjecture that if a Democrat won in 08, they'd have to carry on (and might do so for political points), but from what I've seen from them, I'd just as soon call them dhimmicrats.
Let's apply some logic.
How many times a day, and for how long, is the Kaaba wholly deserted by human beings within the irradiation radius of even our smallest tactical nuclear weapons?
well, truthfully, in off season at night, would be the smallest number of civilians to loose thier lives
...Nathan said...
The holocaust, Mr. Pork, would be the destruction wrought upon the West that would justify a Western retaliation, and that retaliation in kind....
so if the west wanted to retaliate in "kind" it would simply bomb to death a few million moslems?
i prefer to hit the rock...
C4 has a point he has never made, just thought of it today.
China is the heir of the Great Khan's throne, they have claim to all his vast, past domain.
Where once the Mongol rode
Returns now, the Chinese Horde.
By right of might
from Gailee and Baghdad
to Cracow over to Moscow
Having indigs confront their foes
Hovered above the fight
While stepping on our toes
What else do we have to "help" Islam reform as necessary to function peacefully with us?
as stated on this blog, the killing of radical imams around the globe?
I like murdering holy big black rocks....
mr pork loves to kill rocks...... i am such a meany
nathan - the hebraic prophet states: I find it vaguely amusing that Mr. Pork (shalom!) accuses everyone else of emotionalizing while calling for a nuclear strike.
Shalom back at ya...
In the middle of the night.... when all are sleeping, a small nuke suitcase hits the rock... whos to say "WHO" did it?
I personally think the answer will be in the destruction of the current faith..... thru destruction comes rebirth..
i still think we should start talking about the concept of rock murder and the moslems should start listening.....
Pork Rinds,
Slow down buddy, I'm on your side as far as blowing the damn thing up :>
But I don't see the point in talking about nukes as a means. Too many dead innocents.
I can stomach "collateral damage" as a moral cost of war, and as a personal responsibility of a citizen at war. I demand that it be kept to a practical minumum as part of something I back.
And read my posts, I am not shy about advocating war, or the whacking of jihadis.
Hit the rock.
Hhow many non nuclear JDAMs to destroy the building and the rock?.
one or two loads from a B-2 should do the trick.
You'll want to escalate to Armegeddon, with out the preliminary steps.
No need for nukes.
But Heather,
The problems are intertwined (sp?)
Islamic mistreatment of women is a surely an uninterpetable part of the Koran as are the suras demanding the murder of kafir.
If there is no reform of Islam in the treatment of infidel, there won't be a reform in the treatment of women under sharia.
Do we in the the West sit back and wait for the collapse/reformation of Islam under it's own nihilism while tolerating a London, Madrid, or NYC every two years?
Do we fight a slow, professional, effecient war that might win if not for the traitors amongst us?
Or do we do make a symbolic attack on a pillar of an unchanging religon?
Sorry Heather, I left this out.
These women were the most defenseless of perhaps any in Iraq, except the children, and the children/clans, at least have their families to defend them.
I didn't mean to ignore the specific question of these women.
The Brits dropped the ball. You might as well call them Belgian UN peacekeepers. I wish I had a better answer.
....But I don't see the point in talking about nukes as a means. Too many dead innocents...
I am not for dead innocents at all...
I am for rock transformagation....
.....I demand that it be kept to a practical minumum as part of something I back....
me too!!!
but the rock cant be simply blown up...
it could be stolen?
it could be "occupied"
could it be bombed with my pig fat?
i hate death.... i would love to humilate the enemy...
...desert rat said...
Hit the rock. How many non nuclear JDAMs to destroy the building and the rock?.one or two loads from a B-2 should do the trick. You'll want to escalate to Armegeddon, with out the preliminary steps.
No need for nukes....
see now we are talking... clear communication solve misunderstand and other peoples uses of words...
you see "nukes" as a escalate to Armegeddon..
i dont.. our own MOAB is far more deadly and doesnt have the "nuke" label..... I see a small thermo device as an a heat source, as a glassblower i see temps about 1900 degrees all the time... so my mind is think a small nuke is a very hot fire to smelt/turn to into base elements the object of question.....
I can grow, I can listen, you object to the term "nuke" I am not as educated as you the terms: JDAMs or B-2... I dont have a clue.... dont want to use nukes, have other explosive or even non explosive ways to neutralize the object... but understand, BEFORE we nuke/MOAB/Cluster bomb whatever population, let's take out the symbols FIRST
heather says: Although I have to like your suggestion about the kaaba - remembering the effect upon the Jews, when their temple was destroyed. However, remember that both times, the elite of Israel's society were dragged off to slavery in Babylon, and then throughout the Roman world. ...
Lets make a few small points:
effect upon the Jews..
1. allowed the jews to grow bigger than a place.
2. caused the creation of rabbinic judiasm, hillel and shammai were sent to "israel" from the learned peoples of bavel, thus giving rise to jesus...
3. the changing of jewish thought from requiring offerings or sacfirices, to change to prayer no longer required a "holy site"
4. the bavel talmud, far greater a authentic and importanr source than the palestinian talmud (yes virginia there was a palestinian people - JEWS)
5. 700 years of absolute jewish freedom in bavel
the roman funship...
Jews built the coliseum
Jewish tradespeople spread thru out europe
Jewish glassblowers brought GLASS to venice and europe
maybe the blowing of a PILLAR in islam is what they need to grow beyond a 7th century cult
back to the future, time for some 11th century islam when my mentor rambam lived....
If Allah can't protect his holy places, he obviously is not the greatest. Without that mystical facet to this blood cult, there's not much that is left. I also think too many have bought into jihadi theatrics and this notion that Islamists are indifferent to death or their mass exposure to it. Unless we're looking at a completely new species here, that simply can't be so.
Excellent answer, Nathan.
I agree with you that there is not a certainity, or even a calculable probability, of what the results of this action would be.
I also agree that the West would not have the will to fight a war of annhiliation if the Muslim reaction was jihad.
I'm sorry you're disappointed in my thinking. Don't worry, I'm not on the NSC :)
In seriousness, though, the approach that Bush and Wretchard suggest is threatened by the nature of American politics. This not only includes the subversion by the left, but the tendency of a large part of our society to ignore politics altogether. Not all calls to bring the troops home are motivated by the Left. We have abandoned allies time and time again due to the nature of our politics.
You have suggested that the Bush doctrine likely fails in '08. What happens to the cells for which we would abandon support? Do we simply hope they win out against the odds?
My thought is that an event that shakes the foundation of, or the faith in Islam is needed during this window of time. Now we have a leader that will take advantage of that event. If not, America falls back into complacency until the next WTC attack.
The problem is that any such event causes by our efforts would have to be something along the lines of "destroy the kaaba". It is likely that any such event would be symbolic, and stir up the Islamic world. So we're talking about the same moral problem of lives taken again. That is the problem with a religon fixed upon symbols, and upon death.
I'm not fixated on the idea of a "slap to the head" shock; of blowing up the kaaba, for example. I honestly don't have a better idea, faced with a determined political opposition, and the timeline an active leader has left.
The time for using nukes was while the smoke was still rising from the WTC, the Pentagon, and from the wreckage of Flight 93 in Shanksville. We knew where the Taliban was headquartered, we knew who had attacked us. Two quick strikes in Afghanistan would have killed far less people than died at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
It would have been the merciful thing to do, instead of letting this war drag on like this.
If the money guys, the mullahs, and the enabling dictators were more afraid of us than they are of the terrs, we'd be a lot further along in this necessary war by now.
Nuke the Rock!
While the current administration tip toes around the issues of Islam and the “religion of peace”, it occurs to one that they have taken great care not to openly declare a religious war against Islam. Wretchard posits that we may be in a position to influence a Muslim, “homegrown”, counterinsurgency, and although radical Islamists have framed the conflict as a “Jihad”, a holy war, Westerners have been reticent to frame it in reciprocal terms.
As much as I like the symmetry of, “you blow up the world trade center, our symbol of wealth, we will blow up the asteroid, your symbol of God”, I think that it would doom our efforts to turn Islam in on itself.
So in the spirit of fighting an asymmetrical threat, the imbalance that can hope to tip the scales in our favor may be to exploit the rift between the moderates and the extremists. Not to galvanize their will to defeat the West. Remember the Babylonians did not stop at destroying the symbol of the Jewish temple, but followed through with merciless subjugation for many years.
Dan,
You have squished the kabaa idea. Not in terms of a threat to our troops. I know they'd be able to handle it.
Blowing up the kaaba would screwup everything we've accomplished in Iraq and Afganistan in the last 4 years.
So now we've got 3 years left. Unless there is enough of a movement to get Condi tapped for the nominee in 08.
Is there a consenus that this counrty sustains the political will to fight the war as it's being fought, and the will to counter Islam from within in 3 years?
I know the kind of folk that argue little details like blowing up the kaaba, or cutting of the head of the snake, or setting up the pieces for a Reformation are in it for the long haul, but what about your neighbors? What new lies will CNN and CBS cook up in those 3 years?
Being in the Garden of Evil at midnight, there can be no greater fear. Great posts. When you tolerate barbarity where do you go next?
Great thread. Especially the vision of GWB in the rose garden answering the Creature from the Lagoon, Ted Kennedy.
Babylonians did not stop at destroying the symbol of the Jewish temple, but followed through with merciless subjugation for many years.
utter crap.....
c4:The "spread democracy contingent" energized by the Israeli Likudnik Sharansky forget that we don't want certain democratic Revolutions or votes: Like the Algerian vote the radical Islamists won or the Iranian Islamist Revolution of 1979. Sharansky, who is a Zionist who wants to expand Israel's borders further, was called on this. OK, then lets have democracy in Gaza. Hold elections. "NO", he said, that would be the worst thing possible because Hamas would win and the Settlements would be endangered...and a Democratically elected Gaza would be a terrorist tyranny poised to strike at the very heart of Eretz Yisrael!
i am with you..... democracy for gaza... one vote, one man, one time! let hamas win and declare war like it already has...
then let israel fight back....
against the democratic elected death cult...
then dont complain when the gazian population ceases to be, all brought to you by democracy.
The London bombings, the murdering of children, the Firining up of Australia @ Bali, the Beslan Massacre, all these things and more have hardened the people who write in here--and a few billion likewise--toward an acceptance of the exact reversal of the PC ethos. It makes me recall the odd theory that 911 and all such are at the deepest levels cries for help, an attempt to force change in Islam, to let some air in somehow. Fits the suicide theme of their war-making, too.
"Please DO something, we are SICK!"
OK, I'm gonna piss THE BOSS here off now.. Before we do any withdrawl from Iraq, and before the U.S. mainland gets the American Hiroshima, we need to alert Diego Garcia, have them load up 2 32-ship formations of C-130's with the Daisy Cutters, and send them to Mindanao, followed by 24 hours of Buffs carpet bombing.. If there ever was a nest of rats that needed cleansing, that one does.. My guess is that there are way less than 10% of innocents there.. Send in Al Jiz and have them show what will happen to the next place, when there seems to be futile use of trying to "save" a people from themselves.. The Filipino leaders are so FUBAR right now, that I dont think they could muster more than a stern comdemnation from the U.N. .. This also might have enuff impact on the corrupt's there as to send a message to leave the leaders alone and let them run the country unabated.. The Aussies would be a lot safer, the Indo's would definitley increase efferts to "just get along", the Pal Auth would take notice for sure.. I have no doubt that there would be a lot of "pigs sqweeling under gates", but that also a lot of peace talks would be forthcoming, in the very near future !!
Dan,
Please, no swearing. This is the Belmont Club.
Dan,
You are spittin, slobering, low class scumbag.
Offhand mention of Gates of Vienna on Hewitt.
Out.
mika. said...
If Allah can't protect his holy places, he obviously is not the greatest. Without that mystical facet to this blood cult, there's not much that is left. I also think too many have bought into jihadi theatrics and this notion that Islamists are indifferent to death or their mass exposure to it. Unless we're looking at a completely new species here, that simply can't be so.
1:36 PM
////////////////////
Another set of dead sea scrolls were reported found today. They concern the book of leviticus and date from the second jewish "Bar Kochba"revolt against the romans in the 2nd century AD.
Ancient scrolls found in Judean Desert
Biblical Scroll Fragments Found in Israel
After the second revolt the Romans dispersed the Jews and barred them from ever entering Jerusalem.
Curiously, as far as I know, while the moslem occupation of Jerusalem was far longer than the Roman occupation--the moslems don't seem to have nearly as much influence on Jewish sacred literature as the Romans.
But my words here are just built on superficial impressions. So I would cheerfully accept correction on this --if its not so.
Pork,
Babylon enslaved 10,000 Jews. It is hard to think of that as a noble purpose. Now they treated them OK I suppose considering they were bound and marched away by force from their homeland. But the theocrats of the time wrote history to explain that it was a punishment for not keeping up the Jews “end of the bargain.” Babylon was overrun by the Persians in time and the Jews were released.
It was after all a military defeat, but if you are to insinuate that this was a merciful subjugation, then I suppose you are strictly interpreting the Torah. I am not a rabbinical scholar, thanks. Oh, and by the way, I appreciate your acerbic sensibilities.
____GREAT PHOTO_____ .
We're better than the British, says Chirac...
---
What's perfessionalism?
Dan is a fellow Scotch Presbyterian.
We all talk that way.
Another set of dead sea scrolls were reported found today. They concern the book of leviticus and date from the second jewish "Bar Kochba"revolt against the romans in the 2nd century AD.
Please use BCE & CE instead of BC & AD at least when discussing Jewish History...
BCE= before the common era
CE = common era
BC = before christ
AD = year of our lord
Dan's also are most knowledgeable poster, I was just playing my new part as annoyed Doug.
Clever name, eh?
BC = Before his Coming
AD = After Doug
Were you on your knees pointing toward you know what, Dan?
When ever I was on my knees,
there was a porcelain throne
somewhere in the vicinity
Have not paid homage there in decades. Can't blame the ale,
Youth and misadventure were to blame, I'm sure.
I like Pork's sticking up for his people. I like that in a pork rind.
My problem is, I'm a dickhead. I don't care whether the Jews are right or not. I just like their sensibility. If USA had no Jews and no Blacks, we'd all be sittin' out in the barn, drunk, playing with shotguns, staring red-eyed out the window, feeling like killin' somebody.
4:18 PM Larsen
Why don't the "mainstream" Christian Church's do that?
---
Medved was talking about a new worldwide Pew survey:
---
Bottom line for me, as I've been saying for years, is that the vocabulary for antichristian, antiamerican s... worldwide mostly originates HERE.
I'd kill Doug in a minute, if not restrained by people with joy de vivre.
Is that what Chirac has in that picture with Tony?
I hope it doesn't straighten out Koizumi's locks.
I don't know why the legacy churches have gone so stupid, Doug. We better learn why it is that people pick sides, tho. It's past time to keep checking the number of angels dancing on the heads of pins. Pick your side. Screw it.
They do not do it, doug, because they do not believe they are in the right. No defensefor US because you are guilty, by definition. We have failed the world and ourselves.
We are just big, mean, religious bigots.
That suits me, rat. I'm getting tired of explaining things, anyway.
Joy for Life Indeed!
.Mr Chirac's response was not only a rebuff to Mr Sarkozy but also part of a concerted campaign to restore French pride at a time of national soul-searching and gloom.
Need to form an Old Fart Corp.
Just one more thing bud:
Explain to me why
KKKarl Rove
(FROM TEXAS)
Should not be kicked out?
If our old guys could fight their old guys, then the young--with everything yet in front of them--could be spared. Have to prep the battlefields a bit, tho. Lots of defibrillators and such.
Dan,
Like Doug I was just trying to be ironic.
That defibrallator thing:
Is that some San Fran Sex Toy?
Buddy: If USA had no Jews and no Blacks, we'd all be sittin' out in the barn, drunk, playing with shotguns, staring red-eyed out the window, feeling like killin' somebody.
We would not! You sheethead!
No, Doug, it's those ping-pong paddles that Mrs. Doug hung on the wall next to your computer desk.
Nathan,
I love the fact that we are watching the captured :sniper: team's video!
I got a whole new impression for the "allahu akbar" chant as the boys starting chanting louder and more fervently as our guy jumped right up and assumed a fighting position.
Allahu akbar started sounding a lot like "holy sheet ... holy sheet ... holy sheet"
Survey finds terrorism losing support among Muslims Faith in democracy in Islamic countries is rising, poll says -
Robin Wright, Washington PostFriday, July 15, 2005
Oh, that's gonna REALLY bother our DC Demcoats!
She's got THEM directly connected to my 10kw emergency generator.
She considers it a motivator.
It's my understanding that that black rock in Saudi Arabia is man-made. Rather like the World Trade Center towers. We can destroy it, and leave a stinking radioactive hole in the ground -- rather like the World Trade Center towers -- but what's to prevent them from re-building it some place else?
I thought Kim Jung was Ill along with his brother mass murderers of 100s of Millions.
Atheists All.
Stupid idea.
They forgot how to BUILD things long ago.
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the directorat has it right when he says,
"Ignorance of their own religion sustains belief."
For the millions that cannot even READ the koran!
Do they have an NEA?
"Bin Laden's standing went up slightly in Pakistan, to 51 percent, and in Jordan, to 60 percent."
Possible explanation for that 60%: The Jordanians do NOT want to have any responsibility for/toward the Pakis--if bin Ladenism is what it takes, then so be it. (?)
Some Moron named VD Hanson on Hewitt disagrees with our own brilliant 'Rat on downsizing Navy:
One way he looks at carriers is 5,000 strong universities for young men.
Contrasts them with the Balkanized Campus he retired from:
Fully Integrated, young men working as a team responsible for expensive, hight tech weapons systems produces mature adults.
Can't say that for Campi.
Plus, they are a lot cheaper than any foreign land bases.
VDH Transcript will be available at Radioblogger.com
Scroll Down for Mil Poetry - Tarzana Joe
Stephen, sometimes I feel just that way, too. Then five minutes later, I see a ghastly war-without-end. It's very strange. There's simply not enough insight into the enemy's true mind.
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Nahncee,
The big edifice, I am not even sure shat they call it, is built over and around an asteroid that was found in the desert and had become the object of its own worship and religion if you will. How odd is it that every Muslim edifice has been built over the site of someone elses religion. If this isn't the very idea of a violent conquering theology, I do not what is.
Philosophically, it reminds one of the Yucatan invaders who ate Anistasi tribesman, then shat the human excrement upon its slain leaders. (TMI?)
It's my understanding that that black rock in Saudi Arabia is man-made. Rather like the World Trade Center towers. We can destroy it, and leave a stinking radioactive hole in the ground -- rather like the World Trade Center towers -- but what's to prevent them from re-building it some place else?
my understanding is:
Kaaba, Black Stone, hajr-e-aswad
General Information
Kaaba (Arabic, "a square building"), Islam's most sacred sanctuary and pilgrimage shrine, is located in the courtyard of the Great Mosque of Mecca. According to the Koran, the cubic-shaped structure was built by Adam according to a divine plan and rebuilt by Abraham and Ishmael. A trough in which they reputedly mixed mortar stands near the door and is a popular place of prayer. The Kaaba houses the Black Stone, the most venerated object for Muslims. Probably of meteoric origin, the stone is reputed to have been given to Ishmael by the angel Gabriel. When Muhammad began to preach to the Meccans, the Kaaba was a shrine for the pagan deities of the Arabs. After the Prophet established control of Mecca, the shrine was rededicated to Allah. All Muslims face toward the Kaaba during their daily prayers.
lifted from:
http://mb-soft.com/believe/txh/kaaba.htm
buddy larsen said: There's simply not enough insight into the enemy's true mind.
Oh yes there is:
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=16668
"Please DO something, we are SICK!"
Stephen,
The discussion you are witness to here is, along the thread, considers that there is a different dimension to the conflict at hand. The “Hearts and minds” aspect. Recent events leave little doubt that the Wahhabist strain of Islamic fundamentalism has alienated even the most fervent anti-Americans. Such that this is true, we should encourage it when we can and foment it when we must.
A Scary Thought
GWB reads the Belmont Club and is thoroughly convinced that we should plop a tactical nuke onto the rock. Not much later, world press frets about the toxic plume that is worse than the Chernobyl accident. “Islam, you are dead, go home.” Islam responds, “scientists around the world have tracked the toxic plume through the air currents. It is agreed. The rock has been vaporized. Its dust is coating every inch of the earth. Now Islam is truly spread around the world”. Infidel, Well, I guess you have no reason the face Mecca anymore.” Islam responds, “You are right. Now we just face the United States, our common enemy.”
“You are right. Now we just face the United States, our common enemy.”
And what? Bark louder?
If not more in unison.
Perhaps the joke should be –
Nuke Mecca, it would be a great way to spread Islam.
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Mika, that Reuters pahtay has a thread going over @ Simon's site. Gad. Those Reuters people.
If not more in unison.
I don't think so. There's nothing like a little pressure to bring fault lines to the surface.
Thanks Buddy. I'll check it.
A little pressure good.
10^13 Pascals bad.
An operational Carrier or another airmobile infantry brigade
More graduates from the Army than Naby = lower cost per pupil.
Hanson's concept is not bad. He just chooses the wrong Service to handle our current problems & the education of Americas youth.
A little pressure good. 10^13 Pascals bad.
Well, it's either a slow tectonic drift, or the more dramatic volcano lava flow searing a new landscape. Which do you have time for?
rat, remember, all of commercial China is on her coast. Big USN help others avoid temptation.
problem, when a volcano blows, ya never know how big it'll get.
Buddy,
I guess I'm one of those bad ass Jews. Cause I'd be treating Palestinian terrorists by having all their fscking teeth out. (With a hammer).
.
.
http://www.rogerlsimon.com/mt-archives/2005/07/busmans_holiday.php#comments
As always it is not a question of time, it is a question of will.
When Bush and the military had the momenteum he had the public.
Now that the War has entered a static phase, public support is slipping.
Without further provocation the US effort will slowly drift into a War on Drugs scenario
I understand the Chinese, the coast and the size differentials of our Fleets.
We cannot seal the Syrian border without more ground troops.
We cannot face the Chavez/ Castro Axis in Bolivia, Ecuador, Columbia or Salvador without more ground troops
We cannot end the genocide in Dafur without more ground troops
We cannot continue in Iraq and the greater ME without more ground troops.
Fund the Navy
rat...communication problem for sure, but maybe not policy problem.
o/t, how to fix Africa (ownership):
Mika, bad non-hippocratic, good non-hypocritic.
Buddy Larsen said...
I don't know why the legacy churches have gone so stupid, Doug. We better learn why it is that people pick sides, tho. It's past time to keep checking the number of angels dancing on the heads of pins. Pick your side. Screw it.
4:27 PM
//////////////
They say the heyday of atheism was from the fall of the bastile to the fall of the berlin wall.
I think too in Christianity we are seeing the passing of arianism.
After about the 1680's or so the big movement in christianity has been arianism. I don't know that it was started by Sir Issac Newton. But he was held in such God like stature-- for two hundred years after his death(until he was surpassed by einstein) that his copius writings on the subject of arianism gave arianism the stamp of respectabilitiy. Men who believed that great things could be accomplished through science and technology--were taught by newton that Jesus was only a man. The earliest organized followers of arianism after newton were the unitarians in new england. They were the liberals in the mid 1700's. Arianism was picked up in Europe in the late 1700 by the "higher criticism" school. In the USA such lights as Thomas Jefferson were advocates of Arianism. By the 1860's all the european continental seminaries had switched to arianism and the transformation of american seminaries completed was by about 1920;
Arianism gets its name from an egyptian named Arius in the early 300 ad. He said that Jesus was a wise man-- but a man none the less. This caused a major dispute. Emperor Constantine called a council to settle the matter. At the council of nicea in 325--arius theology was rejected. (Chroniclers of the period described arius's presentation before the council as generally unhinged.) The reigning theology subsequently held that Jesus was both fully Man and fully God.
Never the less, civil Wars raged in the roman empire for 100 years after the council of nicea. These wars often pitted Arian generals/governers against trinitarian rulers. curiously debates of the period often found neoplatonists as fellow travelers with the Arians.
Trinitarianism held sway in both the east and west -- for the next 1500 years or so until the "age of enlightenment". After that it went into decline in the mainline protestant churchs. (I'm not sufficiently familiar with catholic and orthodox to know. But the mainline protestants were very circumspect about their change in theology.
Just as in the 300's ad -- in 1800-1900's the neoplatonists in the philosophy departments and the arians in the theology departments at universities in Europe and america gained the upper hand at the same time. We have seen them waxing together. I think their time has passed--so I think we will see them waning together.)
It is said that the form of christianity that muhhamed found in Jerusalem and on the arabian pennensula in the 700's was arianism. which is why the moslems take on jesus is that he is a wise man and a prophet but not God.
The problem with arianism was shown by Herman Melville in his long boring book Moby Dick. The book begins with these lines. "Call me Ishmael"--and then goes on to chronicle a whaling ship that goes down with all hands --but one--while following the captain in his maniacal vengeful pursuit of a white whale. The problem with arianism is that if jesus is not fully God then he is just another human sacrifice. and if that's true then God's wrath is not propitiated. God's anger is not turned aside. More and more ever more bodies and souls are called to be burned in the fire. And they are never enough because no number of unholy men is sufficient to satisfy the just wrath of a holy god. No one can obey the 10 commandments.
It was after all Jesus great practical accomplishment. He stopped the practice of human sacrifice throughout the world--but if he is only a man then we go back to the pre christian era. Nietzche said something similiar at the end of the 19th century.
Arianism made men vulnerable to the claims atheism. For the most part the legacy churches don't actually believe in God anymore.
Desert,
The Navy always has the big bucks.
Salvador?
Yeah, Salvador
The major contrabandistas are working out of Salvador. One of rendition programs that does not get a lot of press. We sent LA street gangsta's back to Salvador, they morphed into MS13.
They are working with FARC and Chavez in destabilizing Salvador, criminally.
It's a small world after all
Stephen,
Look, there are no clear boundaries to the human mind let alone the human heart. Speaking of numbers, there are 300 million Americans and between us, our friends, our representatives, those who would protect us, and most of all, ourselves individually, we can do more to contribute to the effort. What could a million souls in America do turn the tide? Who can be sure but, best to put in the effort now, on all fronts, than wait for the festering wound to be beyond all hope.
Mika, bad non-hippocratic, good non-hypocritic.
non-hippocratic!? non-hippocratic!?
How else am I supposed to prevent a rabied dog from biting again and having itself put down? Hey Buddy, I'm trying to save a life here!
I see your point. Root canal.
Jeesh Rat.
I was somewhat familiar with MS-13, but didn’t realize that they were doing anything more than facilitating run of the mill criminals and the occasional Jihadist. I suppose contraband is contraband. But what, repatriation of criminal Salvadoreans had the same blow back as SOA?
Charles, man, that was literature...the compression and expansion.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1444055/posts
CFR's Plan to Integrate the U.S., Mexico and Canada [Bye Bye USA]
Eagle Forum ^ | July 13, 2005 | Phyllis Schlafly
Posted on 07/15/2005 8:24:24 PM PDT by twas
The Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) has just let the cat out of the bag about what's really behind our trade agreements and security partnerships with the other North American countries. A 59-page CFR document spells out a five-year plan for the "establishment by 2010 of a North American economic and security community" with a common "outer security perimeter."
"Community" means integrating the United States with the corruption, socialism, poverty and population of Mexico and Canada. "Common perimeter" means wide-open U.S. borders between the U.S., Mexico and Canada.
"Community" is sometimes called "space" but the CFR goal is clear: "a common economic space ... for all people in the region, a space in which trade, capital, and people flow freely." The CFR's "integrated" strategy calls for "a more open border for the movement of goods and people."
The CFR document lays "the groundwork for the freer flow of people within North America." The "common security perimeter" will require us to "harmonize visa and asylum regulations" with Mexico and Canada, "harmonize entry screening," and "fully share data about the exit and entry of foreign nationals."
This CFR document, called "Building a North American Community," asserts that George W. Bush, Mexican President Vicente Fox, and Canadian Prime Minister Paul Martin "committed their governments" to this goal when they met at Bush's ranch and at Waco, Texas on March 23, 2005. The three adopted the "Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America" and assigned "working groups" to fill in the details.
It was at this same meeting, grandly called the North American summit, that President Bush pinned the epithet "vigilantes" on the volunteers guarding our border in Arizona.
A follow-up meeting was held in Ottawa on June 27, where the U.S. representative, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, told a news conference that "we want to facilitate the flow of traffic across our borders." The White House issued a statement that the Ottawa report "represents an important first step in achieving the goals of the Security and Prosperity Partnership."
The CFR document calls for creating a "North American preference" so that employers can recruit low-paid workers from anywhere in North America. No longer will illegal aliens have to be smuggled across the border; employers can openly recruit foreigners willing to work for a fraction of U.S. wages.
Just to make sure that bringing cheap labor from Mexico is an essential part of the plan, the CFR document calls for "a seamless North American market" and for "the extension of full labor mobility to Mexico."
The document's frequent references to "security" are just a cover for the real objectives. The document's "security cooperation" includes the registration of ballistics and explosives, while Canada specifically refused to cooperate with our Strategic Defense Initiative (SDI).
To no one's surprise, the CFR plan calls for massive U.S. foreign aid to the other countries. The burden on the U.S. taxpayers will include so-called "multilateral development" from the World Bank and the Inter-American Development Bank, "long-term loans in pesos," and a North American Investment Fund to send U.S. private capital to Mexico.
The experience of the European Union and the World Trade Organization makes it clear that a common market requires a court system, so the CFR document calls for "a permanent tribunal for North American dispute resolution." Get ready for decisions from non-American judges who make up their rules ad hoc and probably hate the United States anyway.
The CFR document calls for allowing Mexican trucks "unlimited access" to the United States, including the hauling of local loads between U.S. cities. The CFR document calls for adopting a "tested once" principle for pharmaceuticals, by which a product tested in Mexico will automatically be considered to have met U.S. standards.
The CFR document demands that we implement "the Social Security Totalization Agreement negotiated between the United States and Mexico." That's code language for putting illegal aliens into the U.S. Social Security system, which is bound to bankrupt the system.
Here's another handout included in the plan. U.S. taxpayers are supposed to create a major fund to finance 60,000 Mexican students to study in U.S. colleges.
To ensure that the U.S. government carries out this plan so that it is "achievable" within five years, the CFR calls for supervision by a North American Advisory Council of "eminent persons from outside government . . . along the lines of the Bilderberg" conferences.
The best known Americans who participated in the CFR Task Force that wrote this document are former Massachusetts Governor William Weld and Bill Clinton's immigration chief Doris Meissner. Another participant, American University Professor Robert Pastor, presented the CFR plan at a friendly hearing of Senator Richard Lugar's Foreign Relations Committee on June 9.
Ask your Senators and Representatives which side they are on: the CFR's integrated North American Community or U.S. sovereignty guarded by our own borders.
I have a feeling Hugo ain't gonna 'take'. There's been some major demonstrations against him already. He needs Castro-type control, and the people aren't with him. Except for the Barrios--which have little spirit, poor sonzabitches. Do wish we'd never done that Canal treaty, tho. Bad deal for not just us, but for everyone in the hemisphere.
Charles,
“A follow-up meeting was held in Ottawa on June 27, where the U.S. representative, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, told a news conference that "we want to facilitate the flow of traffic across our borders." The White House issued a statement that the Ottawa report "represents an important first step in achieving the goals of the Security and Prosperity Partnership."”
Isn’t that bureaucrateese for everything will come to a grinding halt?
“We a from the government and we are here to help.”
I liked your post on “Arianism”, aren’t Hindus Arian?
Charles, please remove your last post.
AnOther poster here finds it very offensive.
(he shall go unnamed)
Steven said,
"We have stopped al Queda dead in its tracks. We have Osama bin Laden locked up. Locked up, not in our prison, but in a prison of his own making, He is pissing in a tin can, eating rats and living in a cave in some god-forsaken hell-hole. No cell phone.. "
---
I beg to differ:
Bin could well be doing fine in Pakistan.
Whether or not, the training camps ARE, continuing to pump out little mind numbed cadets.
No, it's ok, Doug. Charles is amenable to argument. I'll lay out the alternate someday when I'm not eleven twenty-six pee-em'd.
"Please reread Desert's post.
I am neither the Volcano,
nor the Coconut,
I am da Bomb."
Steven,
I am indeed a young thing:
Can't speak for some of these old farts, nor Wretch.
Just know he has some book learnin, that's probably about it.
NOT
Hey, you remind me:
I never finished your Strangelove Post!
What we need is the
"Return of the Peter Sellers."
What fun he could have with the Jihadis.
" Reuters would like to make it clear that it is not associated with any group or faction in any conflict."
---
We believe you,
believe me:
At least regarding the United States and most esp it's military.
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If I need serious help, please give me someone who respects a higher power than himself.
Thought that was the directorate calling back.
...somebody who, in the old way of speaking, "fears the Lord".
That's interesting stuff about old Newton though.
Our anti-American but living here French friend attends the local Unitarian Church.
MS13
"...Clifford explains that in the past two years there has been a rapid expansion of MS13 branches throughout the US. During that time, there have been 18 MS13-related killings in North Carolina, 11 in Northern Virginia, and at least eight in Los Angeles. Members are showing up in places as disparate as Boston and Omaha, Neb. MS13 sprang up in California in the late 1980s, when Salvadoran refugees, having fled the violent civil war back home, began forming protection groups against existing Hispanic gangs in their new neighborhoods. In time, they turned to such illegal activities as burglaries, auto thefts, drug trafficking, weapons smuggling, extortion, rape, and murder. By the 1990s, US law enforcement was taking note of the group, and many members were deported to El Salvador, where they set up branches and, in many cases, returned to the US. Today there are 8,000 to 10,000 members of MS13 in 31 states, according to the National Drug Intelligence Center, an arm of the Justice Department. The number rises to 50,000 internationally. ..."
http://americas.org/item_18177
These criminal gangs began in El Salvador during their civil war. Of the more than 1 million refugees and immigrants, many settled in Los Angeles and Northern Virginia. Seeking casual jobs, they formed gangs in the United States to protect themselves from established black and Mexican-American gangs.
Today, there are second- and third-generation MS13 members stealing, beating and killing. They were taught the intricacies of electronic communications, construction of booby traps and bombs by their fathers and older brothers who had been trained by the Cubans and learned cruelty from the Vietnamese.
In 1992, after the Rodney King riots in Los Angeles, there were massive deportations of Central Americans. MS13 proliferated from San Salvador to Honduras and Guatemala, even to Nicaragua, Panama and Mexico.
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/trib/mostread/s_351489.html
Strong point, there, Arrowsmith. Yer has tweaked my conscience. No joke, really.
Only defense is, trying to lend a hand making an innerstin' read on a few certain blogs, hopefully will drag a few of the miscreants in to see that all anti-liberals aren't incapable of expressing the basis of their anti-liberalism.
And BTW--is there any way of EVER taking back that once-fine word, "liberal"?
"...El Salvador's vice minister of security, says that an average 250 criminals a month are deported back to El Salvador, a dozen of which are gang members. Clifford says there is also discussion of stationing Salvadoran officers in the US to serve as advisers on MS13 and the US providing El Salvador with antigang equipment and training. Bill Carter, an FBI spokesman, says that Clifford's outfit is a part of the bureau's broad new gang strategy. The larger initiative will include a $10 million gang-intelligence center, which will be established at FBI headquarters next year and serve as an intelligence repository on all gangs operating in the US, he says. Clifford, meanwhile, is not the only US official in El Salvador this week talking about gangs. A four-day international gang-enforcement conference, which ends Thursday, is being attended by representatives of the Homeland Security Department and police and sheriff departments from across the US. "It's all about networking," explains Harvey Smith, El Salvador's honorary consul in California, who set up the conference. "The gang members are communicating nicely. Now we have to as well." Ms. Harman is Latin America bureau chief for the Monitor and USA Today. ..."
The Salvadorean Civil War--which was a proxy USSR attempt to take a base in the Isthmus--was exceedingly bloody, once the blood feud began feeding itself. Societies just can't spill that much blood, in torture and murder, and not spawn off an MS13. The evil spawned by the USSR's foul blend of Marx and Fascism will be with us for another century--as long as it lasted, that's how long it will throw off tornados in it's disturbed wake.
The MS-13 gang, a network of street thugs and paramilitary guerrillas from El Salvador, is one of the most dangerous Latino gangs in the United States, having killed three federal agents and shot several law enforcement officers in recent years, gang experts say. Unlike other U.S. street gangs, MS-13 maintains contact with its factions in El Salvador, as well as throughout the United States, according to a 2000 report by the Orange County, Calif., District Attorney's Office. The Washington Times reported Aug. 16 that the gang sent about 20 of its members from California to Fairfax County last month to kill a county police officer at random. According to an Officer Safety Alert issued by the Metropolitan Police Department on July 20, the Leesburg, Va., Police Department had learned that the California members "are upset with the local MS-13 gang because a Fairfax County police officer has not been killed." George W. Knox, director of the nonprofit National Gang Crime Research Center (NGCRC), said his agency ranks gangs from 1 (least dangerous) to 3 (most dangerous). MS-13 is a 3, he said, adding that "the level of violence for [MS-13] is extraordinary."
"...Many gang members "had ties with La Mara, a violent street gang from El Salvador," according to the Orange County report. "Others had been members of paramilitary groups like the Farabundo Marti National Liberation Front [FMNL] during the civil war." Some former FMNL members had been trained in guerrilla tactics and were skilled with explosives and firearms, the report states. Mara Salvatrucha quickly became known for its organization and violence. After establishing itself in California and Washington, the gang expanded its activities to at least 15 states, as well as Canada and Mexico. "They are literally all over the map," said Mr. Knox. MS-13 members are often children of Salvadorans who came from the war-torn country, or have been deported to El Salvador and then returned to the United States, said Mr. Knox. Their perspective is that "life ain't worth a dime, and they're willing to kill for a nickel," he said According to the Orange County report, the gang ships drugs, guns and cars back and forth between the United States and El Salvador. ..."
"Necktie" a Central-South American 'message' killing--throat cut longways, chin thru adams apple, tongue pulled down through wound to make a "necktie".
Support your local police, folks.
Stephen, good criticism moots the question of 'harsh'--as the elliptical Mika pointed out earlier. No, haven't read Hayek--should, though. But you're sure right about who's-who, among true liberals (and true reactionaries).
Ex Democrat said,
"A lot of the posters here, and to some extent Wretchard, need to remember the ultimate goal of our invasion of Iraq. The ultimate goal is not to bring democracy to Iraq/the MidEast, or to reform Muslim societies. The ultimate goal is the security of the United States and United States' interests. Bringing democracy to Iraq/the MidEast is seen as the best longterm means to achieve that end. We need to keep our eyes focused on that goal. That means that we should not interfere in every aspect of their society that we don't approve of, as distasteful as they might be, whether that be pledging 10 year old girls in marriage, or these types of actions."
Yes, with some minor quibbles. I would add that the political objective of the war was to destroy the government of a Nation/State hostile to the US.
I find it interesting that Wretchard's call for action to protect the lives of prostitutes in Basra, is at its core similar to claims that the US as an occupying force was responsible for the day to day security of Iraqi citizens in Bagdad during the mass lootings and crime that followed our occupation. This claim was based on a simple misunderstanding. Modern refinements in the art and science of warfare established legal terms that define the responsibilities of Nation/States engaged in warfare. These legal requirements are roughly equivalent to agreements, not unlike the those outlined in the Geneva Convention.
We adhere to these agreements because we choose to, and this has no relationship to choices made by our adversaries.
Our responsibilities as to security pertain only to Iraq as a Nation/State. Which is why we will remain in Iraq until Iraq has a stable government, with military forces capable of self defense.
The security of Iraq is our legal responsibility. The security of individuals is the responsibility of police forces in Iraq, as it is in America.
I would also urge Belmont posters to remember that warfare is arguably the oldest art or science.
From Desert Rat,
"Moreover, in trying to achieve regime change or nation-building, we tend to rely on military force rather than diplomacy, trade and economic assistance. The American military, the best in the world, is built to fight and win wars; we can ask the Marine Corps to defeat Republican Guard divisions or destroy rebel strongholds in Falluja, but maintaining local security, brokering political alliances and running local water systems, hospitals, power plants and schools are not major parts of its mission or training. Reshaping our military to take on the activities that the Pentagon euphemistically calls "stability and security" operations will come at a cost - both in terms of potentially compromising the war-fighting capacity of our troops and in diverting the resources needed to support the civic action that underlies nation-building. ..."
Nonsense, nation building has always been a factor in warfare. It's a necessary evil. George Bush made the same arguments during his campaign, and you can see how long he entertained that flawed premise.
I imagine it evaporated after an intensive re-education by millitary experts, philosophers, and historians.
I'll try it again.
S. Tyler, I hear ya. "Preaching to the choir" does little good. I have written a good deal to the local and national papers - and to the Feds. I have found very few receptive except a few local papers, and few national papers (the WSJ being one - you can forget about the New York Times).
To desert rat, living in SoCal I am acutely aware of MS13 their horrific crimes. It time to unleash the dogs on them. Local law enforcement is "ok" but because of boundary disputes and the lack of funds, I think a team akin the "G-men" at the FBI level must be implemented. These thugs are fast moving and deadly. It will take some real muscle to bring them down (Al Capone, Gambino and Jack the Ripper make MS13 look like pikers). It may require this "G-men team" to resort to a trap similar to the trap which terminated Bonnie & Clyde (the Thompson submachine guns
and an vacant road).
Don't get me started on the boarder. It's a mess - the Senate vote. It's up to the citizens to protect the boarders.
"CFR's Plan to Integrate the U.S., Mexico and Canada [Bye Bye USA]"
I'm spending the summer working at a government funded foreign affairs/scholarly organization. There's a number of packets and published materials concerning this crap, "toward a North American community." Between NAFTA and the increasing irrelevance of our borders, even in the face of outside security threats, it'll probably become a bigger issue in the future.
Now that Cedarford and pork rinds have met each other, I think I'll head for the nearest fallout shelter.
Btw Cedarford, I think you misunderstood Desert Rat.
If I read correctly, he was discounting the threat of the PLAN and bemoaning the Army's relative weakness compared to the USN. The opposite of your usual theme, I would think.
To deuceboy431,
Good luck to you, and consider every opinion you find here your enemy. Attempt to destroy it. Your judgement, experience, and training will be your armor and your sword. Claim as your own, or give your allegiance to, those opinions that continue to survive a vigorous assault.
Thanks.
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