Thursday, July 07, 2005

Waiting for Disaster

Christopher Hitchens thinks the London attackers may have been homegrown. In an article in Slate, Hitchens argued the attacks were timed to coincide with specifically British public events, the G8 meeting in Edinburgh, the successful Olympic hosting bid and the imminent extradition trial of the hook-handed Mullah Abu Hamza al Mazri. Therefore:

This would mean that the cell or gang was homegrown, rather than smuggled in from North Africa or elsewhere. Or it could mean coordination between the two. In any event, there are two considerations here. The first is Britain's role as a leading member of the "Coalition" in Iraq and Afghanistan. The second is its role as a host to a large and growing Muslim minority. The first British citizens to be killed in Afghanistan were fighting for the Taliban, which is proof in itself that the Iraq war is not the original motivating force. Last year, two British Muslims pulled off a suicide attack at an Israeli beach resort. In many British cities, there are now demands for sexual segregation in schools and for separate sharia courts to try Muslim defendants. The electoral strength of Muslims is great enough to encourage pandering from all three parties: The most egregious pandering of all has come from Blair himself, who has promised legislation that would outlaw any speech that could be construed as offensive to Islam. Since most British Muslims are of Asian descent, a faint sense exists that criticism of their religion is somehow racist: In practice this weak-mindedness leads to the extension of an antiquated law on blasphemy that ought long ago to have been repealed but is now to cover the wounded feelings of Muslims as well as Christians.

But if Hitchens is correct, and he may well be, then really effective countermeasures cannot be limited to a roundup of the usual suspects or the destruction of a few hundred or thousand Jihadis in the Pakistani northwest frontier. It must necessarily reverse the dynamic Hitchens is describing: the creeping growth of the radical Islamic political infrastructure under the mantle of political correctness. It means closing mosques, deporting people, outlawing the spread of certain conspiratorial associations. In a word, it means stepping on every sacred shibboleth the Left has worshipped these last half century. It's doubtful whether the loss of less than fifty people in Britain will be enough to effect such a sea-change unless the Brits are made of even sterner stuff than they credited with having. Winston Churchill knew the dynamic of appeasement well.

If you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed, if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a small chance of survival. There may even be a worse case: you may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

This doesn't mean that internments or anything of the sort should be started. But it does make the case for dismantling the radical Islamic infrastructure as early as possible because that is far less painful than having to dismantle it late.


Blogger NahnCee said...


7/07/2005 07:41:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

Sorry Wretchard, turgid Churchillian tripe. I think Europe went the wrong way with Progressivism, but it is a system that worked fairly well and beat the heck out of the Fascist, Communist, ultra-nationalist alternatives that had blood running from the Baltic to the Adriatic in 2 World Wars.

All the post WWII structures assume forward progess, tolerance and those robust structures worked up 'till irreconcilable unassimilatable Islamic culture and extremism showed up in their faces. The unwillingness of Europeans to abandon all they worked for since they got out of the ruins of WWII is not "appeasement". It is measured consideration.

And, after all the millions of deaths of the 20th Century, I would not respect Euros going gutless and panicking over less than 200 deaths between London and Madrid and setting up a wholesale abandonment of their values and political systems.

The Euros will do it gradually. They have slowly tightened up on radical Islamists since 9/11. The more blood shed, the harder it will be for Islamoids and the more willing the average Euro will be to deal with them.

Would you prefer they flipped and reverted into racist, reactionary fascists in a month? That would suggest their democracies were rotten to begin with..they were never serious???

The cries of Munich, appeasement, the Churchill worship, and contempt of Europeans are hallmarks of a pro-Israel neocon who never went into the military.

7/07/2005 07:52:00 PM  
Blogger wretchard said...

We would regret vigilanteeism because it's not that effective. Remember the Sikhs who were attacked in the belief they were some kind of Al Qaeda? And many of the most poisonous enemies of all are the smooth, native born spokesmen of the Left. Vigilanteeism is what happens when you have a failure of law and order; a refusal by the authorities to fight. The whole effort should be at awakening the body politic, despite the sedatives of the Left, so that they can fight.

Without that awakening, society is doomed. And it's a test. People have to deserve victory; merit winning; earn the right to survive. Civilization has to struggle forward with the lumber of the Left on its back, carrying with it the people who don't want to win, who want to die; who believe they deserve death. Like Robert Fisk who "understood" why he was being beaten; like the British reporter who, lying shot in Riyadh, pleaded "help me! I'm a Muslim! A Muslim!" Like that British lawyer, who after surviving the London train attack said "we must pity the people who could do this." He had no pity for the victims or for himself. Civilization must win despite these men. We must bear the ring, though we do not know the way.

7/07/2005 07:52:00 PM  
Blogger exhelodrvr said...

This isn't going to be the turning point. It will require either a number of similar scale attacks to do so, or else a really big one (i.e. a nuke/dirty bomb) to shake people free from the PC ropes.

7/07/2005 07:56:00 PM  
Blogger wretchard said...

I'll consider Churchill passe when we do him one better. He stood alone against Hitler and won in the end. We have yet to win. But if you look at my previous post, I say we are winning. And as I've said to Nahncee, it's steady as she goes. No vigilanteism.

But I'll say it again. The Left is part of the problem and there will be scant hope of pulling this one home unless they can be successfully countered polemically and politically. And no one is asking the Europeans to "abandon all they have worked for". One is asking them to defend it. They did not fight for the privilege of being bombed in the Tube.

7/07/2005 07:59:00 PM  
Blogger jp said...

UK will pass an anti terror bill to allow wiretaps, and other crime fighting approaches. The most militant of the hate preachers will be detained and perhaps sent away. who knows what else, but those 2 would be a good start

7/07/2005 08:04:00 PM  
Blogger exhelodrvr said...

One advantage the europeans do have is that their police have far fewer restrictions on them than ours do. Which always makes for good irony when Pres Bush is accused of making the U.S. a police state.

7/07/2005 08:23:00 PM  
Blogger Vercingetorix said...

I think this will be a turning point...just not a tipping point. Kind of like calculus, the left and idiotaria still in ascension in Britain, still that mass over the x-axis, but the rate will reverse, the left in decline.

Clearly there is no plausible way for the left to is virtually assured that Britain's "North African boys" will have aided, abetted but probably planned and executed the attacks as well; where is the support for Muslim exclusions, for greater immigration, and all. In the last election, immigration was a serious issue in Britain, if I am not mistaken. But to the extent that one side, the Left, must continue to support this issue, of multiculturism, in spite of common sense, they will lose.

7/7 is the safety-stop...there is no turning back to the past. Plus the Spanish have set such a good example of what NOT to do; aquiesce and ally with the dying European powers...and still suffer the bombings.

7/07/2005 08:29:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

the question is to me.... will england continue to talk to hamas? will the brits still think mortars fired at israelis by palestinians is free speech?

7/07/2005 09:04:00 PM  
Blogger Zeno said...

Good post.
Problem is, I'm sure enough people will start saying, "only 38 dead, what's that compared to the dead in Iraq, blablablabla." Islamic organizations will complain of persecution... Antiwar protestors will continue the Iraq-war-as-a- cause flag... The PC machine will start all over again.
It will take a big catastrophe, something that really poses an existential threat, which will make the West fight with all its power. Just like when Hitler could have been easily defeatd in 1933, but people prefered to wait until 1939.

7/07/2005 09:15:00 PM  
Blogger EvilDave said...

Unfortunately, I look at Europe and see some of the same things that occurred during the fall of the Roman Empire. I think Europe (UK included) is lost and have no hope for it.

Europe’s fetish with multiculturalism sees very similar to Rome’s period of barbarization. In both large groups of immigrates moved en masse, settled, and refused to assimilate in any way. Today Paris has large “no go” areas that the cops will not enter for fear of the Muslim population.

Europe’s trivial birthrate and the high economic burden of their welfare state have been commented on many times. As Muslims become the majority in these “democracies,” there is little hope the working Muslims will vote to have their wages transferred from them to these aged infidels.

Europe has lost faith in their culture and values. They no longer defend themselves because they do not feel that they are worth defending. The Left (both in the EU and the US) has taught and grown up believing that The West is nothing but a bunch of evil slavers (both literally up to the 19th century and figuratively in modern times due to capitalism, which we all know is bad, bad, bad … yawn). They feel that The West should not exist because all they have been taught is how The West has brought untold misery upon the world. They have no context of greater world history to judge things by. Almost all actions are morally relative as long as the only absolute is the lack of worth of The West in general and the US in specific.
Civilizations rarely collapse due to outside forces. They usually collapse due to their citizens losing faith in the civilization itself. Then the outside force takes advantage of this. This desire to appease at any price is what Islam smells in Western civilization, now.

I am stunned my how many Londoners post-blast seem to feel that they had it coming and that it is Blair and Bush’s fault. And, this came from Right Wing blog sites. What the hell is wrong with a people that can be raped and then blame themselves?

Europe is a lost cause. We should trying to figure out how to firewall ourselves away from them. Our main goal should be how to distance ourselves from this Fall of the modern “Western Roman Empire” and how this new Byzantium can withstand the next 500-1000 years.

One of the main problems the US will have is Canada. We could have used our geography to shield us a bit, but Canada (the Fredo of the Anglo-Sphere) is so obsessed with being like Europe that they will fall along with them. Of course, since Canadian’s don’t know who they are (besides not American), it is tough for them to defend their culture.

7/07/2005 09:20:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

7/07/2005 09:25:00 PM  
Blogger exhelodrvr said...

The problem is not just immigrants in Europe, it is the children of those immigrants who are now adults, and native-born. THis is not just a case of tightening up immigration laws.

7/07/2005 09:27:00 PM  
Blogger fred said...

The European Left cannot survive the crisis much longer. To be sure, through the academic institutions they have disseminated a sense of history that bears little resemblance to actual history, and this has served quite well for the average citizen up to this point. However, the point of pain and crisis has not yet been reached. The individual human being with an addiction, neurosis, compulsion, or personality disorder will not entertain the thought that he functions rather dysfunctionally until the painful truth is manifest in a crisis. Until then, denial rules the day. The same applies with groups of people and their belief systems.

Only when the harsh reality of incrementally applied dhimmitude and jizya close like a vise around their necks will European Leftism fully experience its demise, because nothing focuses the mind like real life adversity. Not some abstract Third Worldism that will liberate them all from capitalism and an alleged faux liberty.

Europeans have become like high school and college students who never grew up. They live the life of Ryan entertaining themselves with a socialist fantasy world. Their governments have not yet acted like responsible parents and told them it's time to go out into the world and adapt to it on its own terms.

In all fairness to the European people, as Bat Ye'or explains in her books, articles, and interviews, most of them are completely unaware of how the Euro-Arab Dialogue has shaped their world. These decisions about how to meet the Arab League's demands were not made public to Europeans and its press, dominated as it is by government and socialist-leaning ideology, was not about to make these things front page items for discussion. The apparatchiks in Brussells and Paris were quite aware of the evolution in European policy vis-a-vis the Islamic world. So, like sheep everyone has been led to the slaughter and it's only a matter of exactly at which sheep count that the natives begin to suspect they've been had.

7/07/2005 09:42:00 PM  
Blogger Vercingetorix said...

Interesting, Evil Dave, but I am not is more likely that Europe will reawaken than it will fail altogether.

But...look at Africa, it is poorer now than it was in the past even though Asia is now richer, and it is Africa's fault, it was her rulers and bad luck to find unique fools that took the worst from Mao and Stalin and threw out even the backhanded 'good stuff.' Europe is at a dark hour, but not lost, the failure and reversals in the EU project open up some room for free market infiltration in Britain, and the Eastern European countries, Western Europe [France] be damned. Better, Messr Blair's party is a leftist, socialist party, and Schroeder's as well; to turn from Blair is to turn to a conservative party, which is to say, please don't throw us in the briar patch brear fox, pwease.

Plus, it is unlikely that Islamism will sustain itself in Arab lands for more than another generation, two at most. Europe as Moslem by 2050? Hmmmm, but if so, if free-market reforms and democracy do not take hold in the Middle East, it will be the most pathetic takeover in human history, the head of the Comic Book Club giving a Super Atomic Wedgy to the Chess Club Islamist Middle East at 2050 will be poorer than today (fertility rates holding constant with economic growth constant too) so Europe will have had to stoop, philosophically and economically, to take the monkey on its back.

It is more likely that we will prevail and hamstring the Islamist impulse at its root...or a poisonous Islamicist movement will face its own existential crisis between resurgent European national movements and Russian or Chinese 'outreach.' Somehow, I don't think the multicult virus has reached Beijing.

7/07/2005 10:01:00 PM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

Be interesting to see if that anti-religious hate speech bill the Brits were kicking around will survive. My guess is that it will give a soft sigh of defeat and then roll over and disappear.

7/07/2005 10:03:00 PM  
Blogger heather said...

One of the memes I hear (CSpan is running BBC), which will be boomed out to all of we unwashed, starting with Blair, Bush, and etc.,: this was done by a very very very teeny tiny minority of criminals, who are completely unrepresentative of the Greater Noble Peace Loving Muslim population. The group has absolutely nothing to do with other Muslims, of course. In fact, the latter are presently huddled in their homes, being decent, law-abiding and peace loving - waiting for the gangs of the unwashed to commence the lynching.

Now, I want to know: how on earth can thinking people believe for one second that this operation could be carried off by a gang isolated from its larger community?
Honestly, when I listen to Jack Straw intoning that these bombs have nothing to do with the Muslim faith, well it is time to baarrrf.

7/07/2005 10:40:00 PM  
Blogger Andrew said...

evildave - Europe’s fetish with multiculturalism sees very similar to Rome’s period of barbarization

Based on my experience of both North America and Europe I'd say the former are far more taken with multiculturalism than the latter. Just this week the Europeans announced plans to start flying illegal immigrants back to their own countries. Can you imagine George W Bush deporting the Mexican illegals who are taking over large sections of the US? Opposition to the multicultural experiment can be seen in the rise of far right political parties in Belgium, France and even parts of Britain. Yet the supposedly most right wing American president of recent years appears to be an out and out supporter of mass illegal immigration from the Third World.

7/07/2005 10:42:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

Europe will persist out of stubbornness; Islamism may last more than 2 generations because of the role inertia plays in that part of the world. We may be able to correct it, with their cooperation. The irony of the Left is especially that they repeat the mantra of mutliculturalism--when in fact, most cultures are in an absolutely moribund state following individual and regional cataclysms over the past century. China is not the Middle Kingdom of Confucius anymore; it has destroyed those idols as completely as possible. India is not a Buddhist or Hindu paradise; it is a liberal democracy and Islamic state. They are vulnerable to our culture because theirs are fallow, generally muffled by the self-slaughter of revolution and subsequent socialism. Outside of the Anglosphere, virtually everything has been largley consumed by it--and now socialism itself is moribund. There is only one alternative revolution that has not consumed itself and exhausted its host culture completely, as even the Marxist Hobsbawm admits: the Islamic Revolution of 1979--but one should also mention the Pakistani revolution, also Islamic. That is why the Left finds itself in alliance with it, and highlights their fundamental anti-Americanism at the same time. Nothing else is left to ally with. And they know nothing but the socialist-desicated liberal arts of 1970 - the present; the repository of the civilized core - which is itself first and foremost IDEAS - has been shattered. It is now being slowly left behind, but too slowly, and surprisingly few in a position to comprehend the picture seem to realize it. Perhaps it will not, though, take a nuclear attack. I doubt very much whether European countries could tolerate being Israel for very long--that is, attacks in the same relative proportion to the size of the country. The Britain/IRA parallel would be a pale imitation of that proportionality, and I believe Europe will rise to its defense. Consider our role in and how late we entered World War I and II. Soon, however, the Muslims of France and Germany and Britain may find themselves in the position to truly have to choose which side they are on, or face medieval consequences. I hope it happens sooner than later.

7/07/2005 10:57:00 PM  
Blogger WichitaBoy said...

Count on late.

7/07/2005 11:05:00 PM  
Blogger sammy small said...

People like Jack Straw seem to have some sixth sense about the peace loving Muslim community that many are just not able to discern. I would ask Jack how he knows this. Has he called on the Muslim community of Britain to rally against their extremists and support Western values?

I seem to recall reading about at least two attempts do this in the U.S. in the past year, one in Phoenix and one in D.C. Neither could muster enough Muslims to make it worth counting.

If the Muslim communities would start off by demonstrating even a minimal amount of allegiance to their new Western countries, then progress against Jihadis would move so much faster. Without it, I fear a long and devastating conflict.

7/07/2005 11:06:00 PM  
Blogger truepeers said...

Evil Dave, I'm Canadian and I know who I am. If push comes to shove you don't need to doubt Canadians are with you; it's just that most Canadians will be in left liberal fantasy denial for a time yet, as are still a lot of AMericans and Europeans. If many of us have trouble knowing who we are and fall for the simplemindedness of anti-Americanism, it is because we are so much like you. The narcissism of small differences. But ours is not the anti-Americanism of, say, the Pakistanis or Saudis. We would never side with them if a real fight breaks out. Anyway, some of us are already very pro-American because we are, in the larger sense, Americans, with families and friends interwined with yours, right back to the pre-Revolutionary era. Our civilization runs a little deeper than you seem to give credit for; unfortunately, many people don't really discover their depths - who they are - until the party is over and the world starts to make some serious demands on their existence.

7/07/2005 11:57:00 PM  
Blogger Roger Sherman said...

It is sad to contemplate the magnitude of the events in London, not least for one who once lived in that city and who will always retain his love for it. What is interesting, however, is the relatively small scale. What makes this all the more intriguing is that Al Qaeda is hardly unambitious.
One could take comfort in the modest scale of the bombings. Perhaps, even in our lassitude, we have deployed nets fine enough to catch all but the smallest bombs and least imaginative terrorists. Although there are other possibilities, perhaps one can reasonably believe they are remote. It would, however, be a mistake to rely on the remoteness of these possibilities, for their occurrence would be devastating, and alas, they may be less remote than we would like to imagine.
In this spirit, I should like to consider one of these other possibilities by asking who would benefit by keeping the attacks on western cities at a level no higher than that of occasional conventional terrorism. Would this satisfy Al Qaeda? Surely not. But what about others--for example, Iranian radicals? Until Iran has at least a handful of workable nuclear weapons, would it want the West to feel itself mortally threatened? Al Qaeda and Iran are animated by different aspirations and interests, but does neither appreciate what the other can offer? Iran needs patience until it has secured what it desires, and Al Qaeda surely has the patience to wait for what it needs.

7/08/2005 12:20:00 AM  
Blogger RWE said...

I don't think these attacks will be enough to start the broad-based eradication of Muslim subcultures that would lead to a better world for everyone.
But Wretchard's point about "better sooner than later" is that "sooner" equates roughly to the U.S. internment of Japanese-Americans - which was VOLUNTARY - those in the camps were those who perferred to live there rather than "anywhere but the U.S. West Coast" - and were nonviolent - they were not death camps.
"Later" equates to something more along the line of POW camps - or, God forbid - Buchenwald.
Unless the Muslims get the message "even sooner" and flush their own toilet.

7/08/2005 05:29:00 AM  
Blogger moderationist said...

IMO, after watching coverage, a great low tech and low cost deterrent would be bomb sniffing dogs everywhere. Instead of expensive devices, buses, trains, airports, etc., could have their dogs.

Islamists are afraid of dogs.

7/08/2005 06:10:00 AM  
Blogger iotm said...

Hitchens is a drunken trotskyist popinjay.

7/08/2005 06:23:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

but iotm, he is my favorite drunken trotskyist popinjay.
Some of you guys do see the light.
Then the name calling and attempts at personal destruction begins. Nothing worse than a traitor to the cause. He still believes in personal liberty and freedom. His personal dislike of Bush & company pales in comparison to his hatred of fascism. It seems yours does not.

7/08/2005 07:37:00 AM  
Blogger RWE said...

As opposed to a drunken Stalinist popinjay.
Perhaps y'all of that persuasion should just have him killed...

7/08/2005 07:42:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

that is usually their first course of action.
No free speach in iotm land
Salman Rushdie, Van Gough, and that Dutch politician whose name is not on the tip of my fingers.
Say the wrong thing and it is off with your head. Such liberty, such freedom. Love of ideas and debate.
Women love to be honor raped, they REALLY do.

7/08/2005 07:48:00 AM  
Blogger securitymom said...

A relatively small massacre of some schoolchildren by a deranged Brit a few years ago was enough to instantly cause Britain to outlaw automatic weapons, and not too much later to ban gun ownership outright. Can the terror murders of over 50 people and injuries to over 700 be less important and not cause a similarly bold reaction?

7/08/2005 07:48:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

He became a drunken Trotsyite popinjay the instant he decided to name Red Fascism. Before that instant, he was just fine.

7/08/2005 07:53:00 AM  
Blogger RWE said...

Securitymom: Good point! If you restrict the rights of law-abiding people who you have no reason to consider as a threat, what would you do to people where you have a really good reason to suspect a threat?
Unfortunately, it will not be viewed that way.
But it can be done. In 1978, when the Iranian Islamic revolution ocurred, one small Okalhoma City college looked around, decided that they just had too many of those durn folks around (like over 50% of the student body) and shipped almost all of them home.
And, folks, we learned two new phrases today:
"turgid Churchillian tripe"
and "drunken Trotsyite popinjay"
Come to Belmont Club for all of your ridiculous phraseology needs, 24/7!

7/08/2005 08:43:00 AM  
Blogger iotm said...

Oh please desert rat, I was making a joke which you obviously didn't get it.

Meanwhile the only response to anything I say is a littany of insults and personal attacks. Mainly because my arguments tend to rip apart the original post, and the majority of people who post here are a bunch of yes-men for wretchard it seems. Thus the obvious recourse is personal attacks, couldn't dare think up a response on your own!

Sounds like the bush is calling the tree a plant.

7/08/2005 12:02:00 PM  
Blogger iotm said...

desert rat, you should do some reading on the plight of women in Iraq under US occupation. Also, didn't the US give the Taliban something in the order of $30 million in 2000, funny how there was no concern for women's rights then.

No consistency whatsoever. You people will buy whatever public relations excuse the government throws at you. You talk about free speech, the only speech you accept is straight from the monkey's mouth, everyone else is ridiculed and attacked in an attempt to distract people from what they actually said.

Start here

Not a rosy picture, goes from women having full equality to them losing jobs and not being able to leave their house without a hijab and male escort. Congratulations Bush on restoring repression to women in Iraq!

7/08/2005 12:08:00 PM  
Blogger Nathan said...

Clearly, there's no hope but to withdraw immediately and reinstall Saddam. Then all the poor victims of the capitalist imperialist infidel crusader pig-dogs will live in peace and happiness again.

7/08/2005 12:34:00 PM  
Blogger Nathan said...

Uday and Qusay, the prince matyrs for free Iraq, it is too bad that they were killed by the crusading Americans. They would have have the benevolent and kind successors to their father, the great leader, providing justice and love for everyone!

7/08/2005 12:35:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

iotm, if I may ask, how old are you?

7/08/2005 03:10:00 PM  
Blogger Good Captain said...

As for the US, I have often pondered on the applicability of the legal strategy employed against the "religious" Aryan Nation crowd in the late 1980's and 1990's. I seem to recall that lawsuits effectively bankrupted these bozos and removed them from their property leaving them without a base. It appears to me that a similar claim could be maintained against those mosques whose imams regulary exhorting jihad against the West.

What are your thoughts?

7/08/2005 04:47:00 PM  
Blogger paul said...


Since you provide no reference links, I won't. But the 30 million in aid you reference to Afgh. was for poppy crop alternative subsidies in efforts to fight the heroin trade. This was a number touted by the likes of Michael Moore after 9/11 to prove the recent US "support" of the Taliban. Still being used by the less informed four years later. Interesting.

I wonder what other "facts" you have wrong.

7/08/2005 05:12:00 PM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

God, he's citing riverbend. No wonder.

Isn't it amazing that out of all the bloggers writing from Iraq now, he chooses *that* one to hold up for our edification?

7/08/2005 07:43:00 PM  
Blogger Boghie said...

I have to concur with Wretchard when he states that we are winning the GWOT - even with the millstone of the Left hanging around our necks.

I think militant Islam is now forced to expand the war. Al Qaeda and the other Islamofascist misfits realize that Iraq and Afghanistan are battles lost. By definition, expanding the war includes the pacifist Western European countries as well as Canada. They hate them too - and they are much easier targets (ones that don't fight back too well). However, expanding the fight does mean expanding your enemies.

Great Brittan was victorious with Churchill and a loser with Chamberain. As in WWII England will adjust and overcome.

7/08/2005 08:02:00 PM  

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