Missing Recon Team 3
The body of the last Navy SEAL from the reconnaissance team which encountered a large number of Taliban has been recovered. CNN reports:
The body of a U.S. Navy SEAL has been found and recovered in Afghanistan, a senior defense official said Sunday. This would account for the fourth member of a reconnaissance team that disappeared two weeks ago in Afghanistan. Only one of the four survived. The body of the SEAL was found near the other two bodies and all three had died in a shootout with insurgents, according to an initial assessment from the field, the senior official said. This senior official said that "no way" had the SEAL ever been in captivity, contrary to Taliban claims that he had been abducted.
The fourth SEAL, who survived, evaded superior numbers until he escaped. Sixteen more Special Operations soldiers died in an attempt to reinforce the recon team when their MH-47 was shot down. The US response to the loss of the recon team was not to run but insert hundreds of troops into the area to find the missing men and possibly to complete the unfinished mission. The Al Qaeda might ask themselves what manner of men these are, who fight to the death rather than surrender, and who though injured evade over high and cold mountains until they have outdistanced their unwounded pursuers. It's not an idle question. One of Osama Bin Laden's strategic assumptions when he wrote contemptuously of the US in his 1996 fatwa was that he was facing cowards.
But your most disgraceful case was in Somalia; where- after vigorous propaganda about the power of the USA and its post cold war leadership of the new world order- you moved tens of thousands of international force, including twenty eight thousands American solders into Somalia. However, when tens of your solders were killed in minor battles and one American Pilot was dragged in the streets of Mogadishu you left the area carrying disappointment, humiliation, defeat and your dead with you. Clinton appeared in front of the whole world threatening and promising revenge , but these threats were merely a preparation for withdrawal. You have been disgraced by Allah and you withdrew; the extent of your impotence and weaknesses became very clear. It was a pleasure for the "heart" of every Muslim and a remedy to the "chests" of believing nations to see you defeated in the three Islamic cities of Beirut , Aden and Mogadishu.
Bin Laden understood and accepted that American logistics, technology and science would be superior to his own. What he was less prepared to believe was the possibility that their fighting spirit would be equal or greater than his. Sixty two years ago the Imperial Japanese Navy fought the USN for three straight days and nights in the waters surrounding Guadalcanal, from November 12-15, 1942. Both sides fought at point-blank range in some cases. Two USN Admirals, Scott and Callahan, died in a single night. Still the IJN and USN came on. Only after the USS Washington sank the battlecruiser Kirishima on November 15th did the Japanese break off. But it was not the material loss that shocked the Japanese: losses were about even on both sides; it was the realization that USN would not give up.
It is the canonical assumption of those who set out to conquer the world that all men are not created equal: that there are ubermensch and untermensch, men of divine descent and mongrel races, jihadis and infidels; that somehow these differences in quality will allow the chosen few to dominate the many. Yet in each case these beliefs have proven wrong, whether in the snows of Russia, the waters of Ironbottom Sound, or in the mountains of Afghanistan.
141 Comments:
I wonder why they did not pick up and mutilate the hero's body?
After all, the Americans posed no threat since all they ever do is cut and run.
The Marines and honor:
Inseparable.
The whiff of freedom compels warriors to perform exceptional deeds of bravery. History has seen this in all ages in every continent. Evil men ignore this trait at their peril.
As a former Marine I can tell you that the US military (yeah, including the squids) is the best in the world. It is only when they are led by lesser men that they fail. Even then it is not for lack of desire but rather their loyalty and discipline that leads them to follow orders. When Bush said in the Fort Bragg address that he would only listen to the opinions that matter, the commanders, my heart soared. This man reminds me so much of Lincoln.
Men step up and lead and it is the hubris of the left that they look to offer understanding to someone like Bin Laden. Is it their belief that they are so educated, so refined, so intelligent that they can talk their way to liberty?
Don't get me wrong, there is a time for diplomacy but when the fighting starts the diplomats should know enough to hand it over to the men who will water the tree of liberty with their .
"What manner of men are these that will stand in the breach?"
Semper Fi.
Terrorists living in immigrant districts:
It is a world of run-down rented houses in immigrant districts where men travelling on false passports doss down among cardboard boxes stuffed with gory videos of suicide bombings and war-zone atrocities. The furniture is of battered chipboard and the drawers are stuffed with forged documents, the unsorted documentation of credit frauds and propaganda espousing hatred of Jews and the western world.
It was only thanks to a lucky break that the two Leicester men are no longer quietly committing their frauds and recruiting British-born Muslims to travel abroad for terrorist training.
http://news.ft.com/cms/s/732a8dfa-f1a8-11d9-9c3e-00000e2511c8.html
Wretchard, what's your favorite AFL team?
Don't have one because I made a decision not to buy a TV set, so I don't follow sports at all.
In my undergraduate military history survey, the professor began the first lecture by stating: "The history of warfare is the history of technology." Throughout the semester, he elaborated his belief that technological innovations were the decisive factors in battle.
I think instead that the decisive factors are belief and will. Belief in the rightness of your cause, and the will to keep fighting. Technological superiority, kill ratios, tactical maneuvers, and the rest are only relevant to the extent they impact the enemy's will to continue the fight.
Unfortunately, there are large segments of our society that have neither belief nor will. Fortunately, the enemy is not monolithic in this regard either.
"Prof_Matski"
With all the past talk about the academia, I thought that might be of interest to some.
matski
I've gotta wonder where you're from that you have no better of an idea where the U.S. military comes from than that. A good part of the officers corps have Masters and PHD. Most of the men and women serving as enlisted are from solid middle class backgrounds and above.
This whole picture of the military as just the bottom of the barrell picked over in life is not just ludicrous, but untrue. But I wouldn't expect the truth to stop you.
andrew,
you might want to delete that and rewrite:
I'd bet he's being sarcastic of the left, not the military, but what do I know?
God, I guess he's serious!
Couldn't believe someone could be that bad!
Thanks, Cutler:
"So while we can -- and should -- think long and hard about the proper role of armed adventure in maintaining national security, we should also caution ourselves against giving too much credit to Bush and Co. After all, America has the armed forces it does in no small part because of the limited economic prospects of so many of our young people. And just because we have demonstrated our willingness to fight for empire does not yet mean that we have articulated a compelling argument for the empire."
andrew,
jonejinx says the squids pass muster!
...and I betcha there were more than a few Marines in the area!
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Doncha just love it a lot that all the left has to offer is repeated assurances of how stupid the rest of us are?
Marzan - this is an Afghanistan/SEALS thread. Give the Phillippines a rest, could you?
oh sorry.
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The Ubermensch was never meant to be a singularity, which is why Islamism will fail. The will to power will always break itself upon the infinite.
Matski's heart has not yet resigned; he cannot understand the knight, much less the faith. Look to the right, Matski, and be awed.
Fallen Seal Steve Reich:
Because of the nature of Special Operations work, Steve Reich could never tell his family, or even his wife, what he was doing. He won a Bronze Star. To this day, Ray Reich said, the family doesn't know why he won it.
"We'd get letters and phone calls and E-mails,'' AnnMarie said. "But he was always vague about what he was doing or even where he was He'd say things like, "I'm in a place with a lot of sand.' ''
http://news.newstimeslive.com/story.php?id=72780
The Japanese thought they owned the night. They sent two battleships full of bombardment ammo to shell Henderson Field and smash the Marines on Guadalcanal. They planned to knock out the airfield, then safely land men and equipment from eleven transports.
This battle saved the airbase. The planes sank the Japanese supply ships, and Guadalcanal was saved. This was one of the crucial battles of WWII. If we had feared taking casualties in this battle, we would have lost the island.
Today, Iraq is our Guadalcanal. It is a meeting engagement. Controlled by an enemy, both were seized by America. The question in both cases was and is; can they be held?
To me the irony is that Guadalcanal was by far a more near run thing. We could have easily lost the island half a dozen times. In Iraq, all we must fear is fear.
I thank the sailors who fought and died in that battle for Guadalcanal. I have a personal interest. My wife's father was a marine on Guadalcanal. Without those brave sailors, she might never have been born.
We face a new battlefield today. Just as those marines lives on Guadalcanal were saved by the navel battle, today we battle in this country to prevent a fifth column from shelling our armed forces with lies just as dangerous as the shells the Hiei & Kirishima carried.
I get the feeling that this professor *wants* to see Dennmark hit.
Lt Victor Belenko of the Soviet Air Force, PVO Strany, reported that he was told:
1. The Americans are very poor.
2. They have lots of cars.
3. They fight like demons and are very aggressive.
4. They hate their country.
And one day he got in a Mig-25 and flew it to Japan.
One wonders how the typical terrorist - or anti-war type -handles such inevitable cognitive dissonance. Could be thay are nowhere near as smart as Blenko. Or as brave.
Beautiful post, and very informative. I check you out every day. Thanks!
They will come from the small towns and cotton fields and wheat fields and the ghettos and ranches and mountains and deserts and reservations and cities and take up arms if they feel the homeland is threatened. They will answer the call by enlisting or waiting to be called via draft. It is really that simple, about as simple as a couple of planes ramming the towers.
Good salute, Wretchard. And great comments (except for the useless agitprop of prof ingrate) re the people that hold--and have held--the front line against the totalitarian impulse.
USN in the WWII Pacific has some mightily stirring stories indeed. One such was the charge of the destroyers--the charge of Taffy 3--off Samar during the Battle of Leyte Gulf. Here's just one sailor's account.
Trish:
I'm reading Scheuer now, and taking copious notes. He's certainly a proponent of total warfare, but is also strangly unrealistic of political realities, domestic and international. He also overestimates Al Qaeda and Bin Laden to a degree, because he respects them so much. I believe as a fellow professional, but sometimes he goes a bit over the top. He's also a defeatist, believing that we cannot win against Al Qaeda and Bin Laden, and therefore shouldn't fight. In order to justify this, he's rationalized that if we only were to appease Al Qaeda's stated goals, cutting ourselves off from the Muslim world, they'd leave us alone. Surprisingly naive conclusions from a man whose book is filled with realistic non-quixotic thinking.
Midwich2
new caliphate
(one of the links from the above)
http://wikisource.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden%27s_Declaration_of_War
Midwich, you can probably find it in there. A quick skim shows he makes oblique references to the future "Islamic state." It's a fairly clear look into his goals and propaganda, before it was twisted to suit short term purposes for the ongoing War on Terror.
A quick google of "Bin Laden recreate caliphate" will return a host of links.
Short term goals: Removal of US forces and other impedients to a restored Caliphate.
Intermediate: Forming Calphate.
Long term: War against non-Islamic world.
The London bombings were due to the UK's involvement in Iraq? Now, how could that be? I've heard over and over that Operation Iraqi Freedom had *nothing* to do with Al Qaida, and was in fact a complete diversion. So if that's the case, why would Al Qaida want to bomb London over it?
Of course, the corporate right-wing media is just telling you that Al Qaida was responsible for this. That's just what Karl Rove wants them to tell you.
Just in case:
I was being sarcastic.
"An imam with an independent outside funding source has an advantage. He can work full time on a radical agenda if he does not have to worry about the rent. Going after the money men would cripple the activities of the radical imams and the madrassas. Unfortunately, the money trail seems to lead to many people who cannot be touched right now."
Euphemism for Saudi Arabia, where the House of Saud survives for lack of a better alternative. At least until they fall to domestic radicals.
http://www.videofact.com/english/defectors2_4en.html
Victor Belenko: First of all American super-market, my first visit was under CIA supervision, and I thought it was set-up; I did not believe super-market was real one. I thought well I was unusual guest; they probably kicked everyone out. It's such a nice, big place with incredible amount of produce, and no long lines! You're accustomed to long lines in Russia. But later, when I discovered super-market was real one, I had real fun exploring new products. I would buy, everyday, a new thing and try to figure out its function. In Russia at that time (and even today) it's hard to find canned food, good one. But everyday I would buy new cans with different food. Once I bought a can which said "dinner." I cooked it with potatoes, onions, and garlic-it was delicious. Next morning my friends ask me, "Viktor, did you buy a cat?" It was a can of chicken-based cat food. But it was delicious! It was better than canned food for people in Russia today.
Sorry, one more:
I bought a box of Freedom with the picture of nice looking lady. I did not know what it was. (I'm talking about maxi-pads.) I brought it to my apartment, I opened it, and I tried to figure it out. I thought well it's probably some cleaning device for the kitchen to give these American women freedom in the kitchen to clean up and absorb everything, because even today Russian women do not have this convenience.
Imam Dwug, what's the official stance on maxi-pads?
"Thanks SO much, ladies, for handling the reproduction details!" ?
As I've expained here , there is also a lesson to be learned by the media.
Great post--thanks! --Will
Go, Arrowsmith!
midwich2,
I am sorry I can not be specific as to a location regarding the text. Shortly after 9/11 Bin Laden was talking about the shame of losing Al-Andalusia. The Moors were kicked out of Al-Andalusia roundabout 1492 by the Spanish.
Yes, he is talking about restoring the Caliphate to Spain.
Wretchard's testament to the fortitude of the troops infers the only danger we have of "losing" - it won't be the troops, or even their careerist leaders, it will only be the weakness of the electorate, driven to despair by the media, the "loyal opposition" politicians, and certain "professors" who teach lies and ignorance.
Thanks Jonejinx.
Papa,
I heard AQ has a 500 million dollar internal budget in Saudi Arabia!
though crushed that we didn't find him alive, i'm relieved that he avoided captivity - and what that would have implied for the nature of his death.
somewhat OT, but not really, the BBC is making a lot today of the 10th anniversary of Srebrenica, which it describes as "Europe's worst atrocity since World War II."
They manage to take a pause in their tireless vendetta against the campaign to end the horror of Saddam's Iraq, to admiringly quote Jack Straw saying this about Bosnia: "For it is to the shame of the international community that this evil took place under our noses and we did nothing like enough. I bitterly regret this and I am deeply sorry for it."
That's the BBC: never act to end horror - but be ever ready to apologize earnestly afterwards for not having done so.
Further, in a column of some 500 words, they seem unable to find room for any use of the words: "United Nations."
Jim's right--let's all drop everything and fly to Baghdad--right now! The generals can use us if we bring our own food and water! And some tents and sleeping bags! I have some extra deer-rifles and shotguns! Let's get started right now! Screw the military, they don't know what they're doing! But Jim does!
Shortchanging Arab Bank’s victims.
Though Arab Bank denies it was ever knowingly involved in terror financing, the public record appears to contradict such assertions. Various jihadist web sites openly raising funds informed prospective donors to direct contributions to numbered accounts at Arab Bank.
But even more openly than that, advertisements in prominent Palestinian newspapers told families of “martyrs”—suicide bombers—to collect money from Arab Bank. One February 2002 ad listed names entitled to receive $5,316.06 from the “Saudi Committee.”
The “Saudi Committee” referenced is likely at least part of the reason that the feds are hustling to shield Arab Bank, despite the wealth of evidence that led to the partial shuttering of the institution’s New York branch.
Hey Bud,
You ready for 115 degrees in full combat gear w/armour?
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It's going to be a total bitch auditing every check written by thousands of Arab "charities". But shutting down half of it is probably doable--and that's big.
if you have ever participated or witnessed the selections of spec ops soldiers, they pick themselves, really...the cadre just ask themselves over and over "who looks like he'd cover my six?" the rest is just moving.
I guess my beef with this op is the planning.its not a problem with higher and all that( I had a huge problem with mogadishu,the raid and the one right before it were just asinine..)I just get super frustrated with results that seem avoidable.
the frogs have a helicopter (squirrel) that can get up there.
--ithooks are great but theyre huge targets just like the HIND-D.
A super high altitude slow mover that can haul a squad and stay on station for more than a minute and doesnt cost 8 billion dollars would be nice...no wait, lets build a prius.
20 brothers gone. All lost to clean up the mess of a sex addict communist that would rather shoot dogs and hillbillies.
Shit we just comandeer the planes! I've seen pictures of pilots, they look like me, I can probably fly an airliner! Meet at the end of the runway? How 'bout 8AM sharp, all 300 million of us!
No, Jim, I'm almost your age, and would've served if I hadn't flunked my physical. I was classified 1-Y due to a couple of HS knee operations. I've felt bad all these many years over not trying harder to over-ride the 1-Y--I was in good shape, the knees were from sports and I had plenty at the time left over, physically. But I let it stand. Now, what does that have to do with whether or not the USA has anything at stake in the mideast?
Buddy,
Read that short Joel mowbray article:
It isn't about a problem doing it,
but a CONGRESSIONAL COVERUP, thanks to lobby dollars, and one lone GOP pol trying to get the truth out.
luckent47, I'd never made my silly ass posts if i'd read your heartbreaker. I'm sorry. Your last para is hard, hard. No way around it.
Doug, Col. David Hunt's book "They Just Don't get It" makes similar points. Go into the banks, he says, bring up the suspicious accounts, and hit the 'send' button. Then, let the owners argue their case for an unfreeze.
Nathan, that's that new bow, isn't it?
Jim, the kids in school are taking a lot of sh*t from some teachers and some peers, about serving in a 'fake' crisis. I know, my 22 yr old is interviewing with the navy as we speak--she just finished her undergrad degree, and is catching flak for wanting to serve. You're right--it is bad. But if you want to hit the party politics, you're missing by 180 degrees, in my opinion. Recruits are coming out of stridently pacifist institutions.
Is there a case for quitting this war? What will happen if we do? In a year? 5 years? 10 years? I'm with you insofar as if the country won't support it, lets bring the kids home now. And let Nathan add on a dozen Carriers and SSBNs, and just do foreign policy crisis resolution with the hammer of Thor.
It's a small thing, but at least here you can do more than offer vocal support: American Military Family
Tony, here's another, that GWB mentioned in his July 4 speech in West Virginny.
http://www.americasupportsyou.mil/
Now we just gotta get Dessert Rat on Board for those Carriers!
...then we'll start calling him Desert again!
---
French, from Old French desservir, to clear the table : des-, de- + servir, to serve; see serve
jim,
The Belmont Club is sometimes refered to as the old folks at home.
Andrew,
My neighbor flew Super Connies for the Navy, and a bunch of others, then commercial, including DC-3's!
Still runs 6 miles every other day after cutting down from 12.
...plus all the gardening, tree trimming, etc on his large yard!
Buddy, I always love the charges of the Taffy 3
Jim, sound likes you were a desk top major and talk like a warrior. Been through 3 wars eh? I was just damn lucky to survive 1 war from 1970 to 1975. And I am a Vietnamese American.
Nathan,
Why doesn't someone paint some P-40 Warpaint on that Submarine like nosecone?
Pootang isn't a de-focuser anymore and you're a bunch smarter than the kids.
---
?
Lan Nguyen said...
---
What a line of crap!
You had John Heinz there to protect you!
I thought some defocusers were eternal.
Right, Jim--I didn't mean to smart-off--I jumped to a conclusion, that you were a typical antiwhatever. As a matter of fact, if we DID have 300 million willing to go fight, we'd never have to fight in the first place. But, as people like Lan prove, the thing just has to be finished right. I wish I knew what to say. The truth is, the military bears the burden. Period. It's too serious to be smart-assing on--I'll watch it in the future.
No shit, Wretchard.
Skip bombing at Guadalcanal in a B-17 at wave-top level. One engine blown off, nose blown out, but he goes back for another attack, all in heavy squall conditions.
http://www.afa.org/magazine/valor/0594valor.asp
Some of the photos from skip bombing show the wings just clearing the smokestacks of the targets.
Talk about a rock and a hard place, long, long flight over the open Pacific--mostly in single-engines--not to mention the carrier landing after. Guts. The story of Torpedo 8 at Midway, a fiction-writer wouldn't touch it, nobody'd believe it. The whole squadron shot down--which opened it up overhead for plain lucj timing arrival on the dive-bombers which turned the war in 5 minutes, sinking 3 of the 4 IJN fleet carriers. It's just an incredible, incredible story.
Buddy,
Remember, too, that they were flying towards a moving/often unknown target, and coming back to a moving target, which might have been sunk. So they often ran out of fuel. With navigation aids nowhere near to what is available today.
But I think that the Catalina crews, flying out alone, with very minimal defensive capability, no way to outrun anybody, searching for the enemy, may have had it toughest in some ways.
Jim, no need to feel bad about Vietnam, old soldier (if you remember the words of McArthur). If Vietnamese couldn't foresee what would come their way and hence standing up to fight, there is nothing you could do.
In the same token, I often wonder how many Americans seeing it coming their way if they don't fight the war against the Muslim fanatics now and rather wait until the enemy gaining strength and weaponries?
Jim, especially, and all the rest:
Check out Papa's long der Spiegel article on the bin Ladens and the Sauds.
...always thought flying all those f....... back after 9-11 was not the best idea in the world.
Quite long article, maybe this will entice some of you:
"Be generous when doing God's work"
Carmen bin Laden, a sister-in-law of the terrorist, who lived with the extended family in Jeddah for years, says, "I absolutely do not believe that the bin Ladens disowned Osama. In this family, a brother is always a brother, no matter what he has done. I am convinced that the complex and tightly woven network between the bin Laden clan and the Saudi royal family is still in operation."
Even as a boy, Osama was always considered the "holy one" in the family. He drew attention to himself when he denounced school soccer tournaments as a godless waste of time and assiduously monitored the houses of neighbors, taking it upon himself to enforce the state's prohibition of music.
In 1990, after his triumph in Afghanistan, OBL offered the Saudi royal family the use of his troops to battle Saddam Hussein, whose forces had invaded Kuwait. But King Fahd decided instead to bring in American forces. The decision proved to be a financial coup for the family business, which helped build military bases for the outsiders, but it was turning point in Osama's life. Embittered, he went to Sudan in 1992
According to Scheuer, members of the bin Ladin family who were doing business in the United States or studying at US universities were almost completely inaccessible. "My counterparts at the FBI questioned one of the bin Ladens," the former CIA agent recalls. "But then the State Department received a complaint from a law firm, and there was a huge uproar. We were shocked to find out that the bin Ladens in the United States had diplomatic passports, and that we weren't allowed to talk to them."
"The Saudi Arabian Wahhabites are the luxury version of the Taliban," says Carmen bin Laden.
She rarely saw Osama. She noticed him because he turned away in horror when she opened the house door: "I was unveiled, and he was afraid of the sight." The family saw OBL as fanatically pious -- and he was also admired for the same reason. But Carmen thought he was odd. She says that Osama's young wife, Najwa, was not even permitted to give her baby a bottle when it was very hot, because the merciless father felt that the bottle's nipple was "haram" -- impure in a religious sense.
The outsider observed the trench warfare that was taking place for power within the family dynasty, a battle in which her husband, son number 10, soon moved to the top. "The daily realty within the family was jealousy, envy and intrigue," she says. "But the all-powerful Islamic traditions of Wahhabism ensure that no one is excluded from the clan. No individual destiny is more important than the shared system of values."
This is why Carmen bin Laden believes it is impossible that the brothers have severed all ties with Osama. "No matter what he has done, they cannot disown him -- it would be a violation of the Sharia laws." And because of the close relationships between the royal family and the construction company, Carmen also believes that there are still secret links among Osama, various princes in senior government positions and leading religious scholars.
Dir is famous throughout the region for its sharp knives and the Kalashnikov knockoffs that every young man older than 14 carries in the streets. It's also known for smuggling along dozens of hidden paths across the border into Afghanistan, only 40 kilometers away. Asmar, the Afghan village on the other side of the border, is the place where Osama bin Laden was last seen by credible witnesses -- well over a year ago
The world's number one terrorist has moved on. Some intelligence experts believe he has gone north into the remote Wakhan region, with its jagged mountains and thousands of caves in which to hide. Others believe he is in the rugged mountainous Khost region south of here, on either side of the border town of Parachinar.
It seems difficult to believe that OBL can move around in this region entirely without the knowledge of Pakistani intelligence and military officials. American special forces are repeatedly seeing the same pattern: Whenever they believe they are close to bin Laden's followers in the border region, someone tips off the terrorists -- presumably high-ranking sympathizers within the ranks of Pakistani intelligence or military.
"It is the canonical assumption of those who set out to conquer the world that all men are not created equal: that there are ubermensch and untermensch, men of divine descent and mongrel races, jihadis and infidels; that somehow these differences in quality will allow the chosen few to dominate the many. Yet in each case these beliefs have proven wrong, whether in the snows of Russia, the waters of Ironbottom Sound, or in the mountains of Afghanistan."
And the hills of Pennsylvannia.
The Confederates said before the civil war that one southerner could lick ten yankees. It turned out to be more like 1.5, maybe 3 or 4 if the southern boy was dug in with artillery support. He couldn't keep doing it every day, though, with no shoes, no food, no shelter, no blankets.
Spirit counts for a lot, and the South had plenty, but the yankee soldiers had it too; and spirit plus superior material and logistical resources combined with a little leadership and the determination to fight as long as it takes adds up to victory. The yankee soldier supplied the spirit, capitalism supplied the resources, Grant supplied the leadership and Lincoln supplied the determination to win or bust.
Our boys now have the spirit, they have the best equipment that money can buy, and they have good leaders. The only question that remains to be seen is whether the American public has the will to insist on victory. Even now, we are only fighting half of a war. There are lots of countries on the list, and we're not yet done with the first two. We won't get done with them either, until we take on the rest.
I keep tellin ya, C-4, disarming is TRADITIONAL.
(and has traditionally predicted war with 100% accuracy.)
---
And besides, how we going to have free medicine and mortgages for illegals if we don't cut SOMEWHERE?
In Russia, when you turn 18 you serve in the army, period. If you can't, or wont fight, you peel potatoes, or do laundry, or drive or cook for those better than you. There's lots of utility that can be derived from those that wont and can't. And everyone gets to share in the patriotic duty.
Mika,
The Belmont Club alone could put out a better paper giving our side of the war than the entire US Govt!
Lan,
If Belmont has a central theme, you just hit on it: In the same token, I often wonder how many Americans seeing it coming their way if they don't fight the war against the Muslim fanatics now and rather wait until the enemy gaining strength and weaponries?
C4, what's the solution? Inspiring victory on the morale side by accentuating the negative? Re-ups signal high morale among the deployed units. Anybody got any links on that crucial "tell"?
check this thread at lucianne
http://www.lucianne.com/threads2.asp?artnum=223527
seems i'm not the only one ?ing the ch-46e.
wired.com has an osprey blurb too.
larsen,iwastalkingabout clintoon and ruby ridge.
my only adviceto any parentsending a kid into the service is to MAKE THEM LEARN ARABIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
4187 for a dlab test
defense language aptitude battery.
first things first,leave all that hooah shit to the humps, we need BRAINS with GUNS.
This from a grunt that was at battalion,so save it wannabees.
The NEA and the internationalists have removed all languages of consequence from the curricula. French,German...why?!!
We need mandarin and arabic asap.
Do it.
Doug,
Maybe you should have them peeling potatoes. You'd be surprised how motivated after that they'll become.
luckent47: my only adviceto any parentsending a kid into the service is to MAKE THEM LEARN ARABIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Or have those people (those in the ME) learn English.
I know that in my area, cable and satellite services, provide automatic audio and text captions to all their TV programing. Just pick the one wish: English Russian Hebrew Arabic.
I knew who you meant, luckent47, the clintoon. My kid talking to Navy IS a language minor--just fin 3rd yr intensive Russian this 1st summer session--which graduated her. Navy told her, maybe Intelligence. So, you're right about the language interest--it's there in spades.
Mika,
High Tech has ruined everything:
Way back in the 60's in Basic Training we had a neat powered peeler!
Had a big spinning steel globe with spikes inside a bowel poured in the concrete!
I was impressed!
(and appreciative!)
Doug, the nineteen 60s?
doug said... Mika, High Tech has ruined everything
uh yes, I should have prefaced that by saying: in Soviet Russia. :P
Well, if not peeling potatoes, how about polishing boots. :)
Nathan must be Mr. Potato Head!
Caltrop,
The times article says the guy that made it was blown down a mountain by rocket fire to a place where he couldn't be seen!
(wondered if you heard any chatter on that.)
Larsen,
Nah, I heard the Gettysburg Address,
LIVE!
Nathan,
Memory grows dim:
Might have been an inverted cone, not a globe:
Sit on that one!
found the article about the osprey.
velly intellestingk
http://wired.com/wired/archive/13.07/osprey.html
now that they have actually fixed the problems will they just throw it away?!!
They really do need the Osprey, or the equivalent. Compared to helos, it has a much greater carrying capacity, and is much faster, with a greater range. With the potential for more ship-based operations, that extra range is very significant. Add in the fact that the heavy lift helos are getting old, and are going to need to replaced anyway, and it seems like this is an obvious choice. Unfortunately, it is expensive, and had some bad PR (some the fault of the Marines, some just due to the typical problems new technology has).
The guys with the muddy boots will do what is expected of them as long as they do it under the radar. Most modern societies treat the military as the last resort when the thinkers and the elites cannot agree on a solution. But societies do not really want to know of heroism or cowardice, because these notions are primal and cannot be understood by taking a grad course in psychology. Socities want the results of a strong military but not the cost or the details.
I read somewhere that Osprey is in, or going to be in, the future. Not dead, not gonna be dead.
Caltrop, there was a lot of unclenching, everywhere, when the story reached the end.
Something turned that IJN fleet around--that was the 'kill' fleet, IIRC, and it reversed away from it's mission soon after smashing thru Taffy 3. What turned them?
Here, found a good recap of the five major engagements of the Battle of Leyte Gulf:
(loss of Gambier Bay in Samar engagement)
Jim: thanks for your service. However, I do believe the Army surpassed their recruiting goals in June.
From what I can find out, the Army lowered the target a bit, or moderated their standards, but they did surpass the goal. Remember, the overall annual goal was to increase the Army by 30,000, I believe (though the number could be more). This is of course a nit-pick, and your overall point that the military is strained is a correct one. Not sure what you can do about it, though, since we are in a war that needs to be fought, and the military fights our wars.
Respectfully, the "chickenhawk" argument is distasteful and just completely wrong. Those that serve deserve my thanks and respect, but do not be so quick to debase your fellow citizens. If a bank is robbed, I do not feel bad in asking the police to find the suspect and bring him to justice, though I myself am not a policeman. Our military fights the wars, but the threat is universal; we are all on the frontline of this war, and like all other wars, some bear an inordinate amount of the burden. I find your implication -- that I have no right to clamor for my country's protection, unless I strap on boots and fight -- insulting. I may yet join, and it is a decision that weighs heavily on me, but I am not embarrassed to leave my options open until the threat is dire.
I am 24 years old, in good health, in my second year of law school. My grandfather fought at the Bulge, my father fought during Tet. When my mother died when I was very young, my father worked three jobs so that I could get a good education and attain levels of security that had eluded him his entire life. At what point to I put aside his dream, and my duty, for a greater one? I know many Americans that live this story everyday, and some have indeed chosen to enlist. For me, we are not yet there.
In the meantime, I have taken it upon myself to learn our proud history, to immerse myself in data where I can find it and knowledge where it is available, so that, while I may not serve, I will not be misled. I have read an enormous amount of information about Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Syria, and all the other troublesome spots. I educate all those around me, and I keep the faith as best I can here at home. So, if we are indeed in the fourth generation of warfare, my service on the moral front could be where victory is determined.
We are in the opening salvos of a long war. I do not serve in the military at this point. Who knows what will happen in the future. Should I shut up? I think not.
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Braudel, 1:00 PM
"Almost like Autism"
---
Braudel, you fool!
You have a major best seller there!
(I'll settle for movie rights only for saving your bacon.)
Lefties eat that s... up:
The ones that think they aren't as bad off use it to congratulate themselves that they are not THAT bad,
and the ones that are worse off use it as an excuse that they have to finish it before committing suicide.
They turn into very slow readers, but the upside is they also tend to be slow breeders.
I'll use preview for a week as punishment.
Ladder,
re:
"In the meantime, I have taken it upon myself to learn our proud history, to immerse myself in data where I can find it and knowledge where it is available, so that, while I may not serve, I will not be misled. I have read an enormous amount of information about Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Syria, and all the other troublesome spots. I educate all those around me, and I keep the faith as best I can here at home. So, if we are indeed in the fourth generation of warfare, my service on the moral front could be where victory is determined."
---
Thanks for that: I'm probably not the only one here that could have avoided a lot of foolish behaviour had I taken the time and effort to better educate myself about our proud and UNIQUE heritage.
fernand braudel, that's a pretty good diagnosis, "autism", since it is a stage that many ordinary) people today reach in a process of trying to escape from the mass hysteria that is common on the left (a stage I have passed through). Whether this phenomenon is at all akin to the autism that affects infants is a whole other question, that I would like to see answered one day. Anyway, here is a passage from an article that your observations led me to recall:
Modern psychology was called into existence by a symptom of distress that amounts to the most explicit declaration of our imitative propensity that one can imagine – sympathy intensified to the point of reproduction – what René Girard calls mimetic desire. Girard was the first to give due weight to mimesis, but Freud was not the first to notice its role in hysteria. “At least since
the late seventeenth century,” writes Mark Micale, “medical observers have noted in hysteria an
extraordinary, chameleon-like capacity to reflect the environment in which it develops.”37
Psychologically speaking, the hysteric is someone especially vulnerable by reason of mimetic
predisposition and emotional circumstances to the influence of others, and who, having fallen
under such influence, finds it suffocating or intolerable, resorting to a kind of private exorcism ritual – involving, typically, either exaggerated histrionics or autistic dissociation – each an effort
to ward off or neutralize a mimetic influence which the subject experiences as ontologically threatening. A person risks being diagnosed as hysterical if his attempts to ward off mimetic influence and retain or assert his self-sufficiency are debilitating enough or flamboyant enough to attract the attention of clinicians. The oddest thing about the epidemic of hysteria which
accompanied and occasioned the birth of psychoanalysis, and which was quickly determined to be the oldest human psychological distress, dating back four thousand years, is that in the latter half of the twentieth century it disappeared altogether, and no one knows why. But did it
disappear? Clinical forms of hysteria disappeared into a sea of sub-clinical ones. Freud himself
likened “anxiety” – that most familiar of psychological symptoms – “to an individually acquired hysterical attack.”38 And today low-level, chronic versions of the hysteric’s rituals of disidentification with others are virtually the norm in contemporary Western culture, especially
among the young.
http://www.stthomas.edu/gaudium/papers/Bailie.pdf
Nathan, chapter 10, CVE "combustible, vulnerable, expendable"--gallows humor at its finest, LOL.
Ladder--please finish, and go help rescue a court or legal department from the insidious Left. The war has many fronts, and at your age,you can join up later if/when the time comes.
Here is my hysterical link, again
HOW DARE YOU GUYS TALK ABOUT HYSTERIA ?????
In English, i hope (let me know): the idea in the passage I quoted is that we all learn our desires from each other; we mimic each other's desires; hence the key conceptual term used here is "mimesis" which is the process by which our desires feed off each other. For example, in Romeo and Juliet, Romeo falls in love with Juliet; he first is attracted to her because his rival already loves her. Romeo mimics (learns) his rival's desire, and the result is tragic.
In modern society, desires are everywhere in our face, in the form of advertising, rhetoric, the images of mass communications. If you are highly suggestible and inclined to imitate many of the many desires that are thrown before your senses, you are inclined to fall into that state of being that Freud called "hysteria". But, once you find yourself on the verge of hysteria, you may well try to escape from the mimetic force of other people's desires and go to the other extreme, i.e. "autism". In other words, the paradox in this argument is that the commonly witnessed "autism" among morose western youth may be a sign not so much that they are incapable of sympathizing with other people, but rather that they are all too good at it and have to withdraw in an extreme fashion to protect themselves, because they have no more solid sense of personhood to withdraw to. It is a notion of Christian personhood that the author of the article, Gil Baillie, is ultimately promoting as the solution, but whether your sense of personhood is explicitly Christian or not, you can learn something by taking the time to consider Gil's diagnosis of the problem. I don't think his English is half as convoluted as that found among the hysterical intellectuals who rule our universities.
FB, fwiw, my own reflections on the professional discourse surrounding "autism" is that they have barely begun to understand the problem. To speak of a spectrum of disorders is akin to saying we are all, at least many of us, to some degree, "autistic" and only the extreme cases are really problematic. OK, does that really tell us anything?
A key recent discovery in the neurosciences was that of "mirror neurons", the observation of those who image brains in action, that we learn through mimicing what we see others do. Rene Girard's theory of mimesis provides a much more insightful account, however, of how our mimetic capacities play themselves out in human interaction. But such accounts from humanist (and in this case an explicitly Christian) intellectuals have yet to be assimilated by the neuro or social scientists. When that happens we will be able to more effectively explain the paradoxes of why people who suffer autism often are highly skilled in learning specialized, or narrowly-routinized, skills - the Rainman phenomenon - "autistic" skills which nonetheless entail learning from others through some kind of mimicing. Or, e.g., the paradox of why some kids can be very slow to learn how to speak, but very quick and good readers who can use books to go off into their own "autisitic" worlds. Such kids can empathize with the author's imagination but have troubles mimicing people in the "real" oral world. Autism, it seems to me, is not simply an inability. It is tied to abilities that often depend on the mental capacities deemed to be missing in the autist. We must become better skilled at paradoxical thinking to crack this nut.
Truepeers, your finding vocabulary unintimidating is like Mr. Asbestos not noticing the heat.
referring to "... I don't think his English is half as convoluted as...."
Buddy,
The scary thing is that if we bug him a little he can rewrite it as Johnny Canuck without even pausing.
I've always wondered what it would be like to be intelligent.
"We must become better skilled at paradoxical thinking to crack this nut."
---
Or,
Just better at calling a spade a spade:
Liberalism is a mental illness!
Fernand_Braudel said...
"My god, can you put that in english? "
---
Yeah, Fernand, we'll do that twisted sister novel in English first, and then when it hits the NYTimes Bestseller list, we'll come out with the French version.
If it sells well enough, they'll get a terminal case of the vapors.
Then we take on Kofi and Co.
I started thinking he was intelligent, but then I realized I was missing about 85% of what he was trying to say, so I decided he is an inarticulate moron!
truepeers:
"among morose western youth may be a sign not so much that they are incapable of sympathizing with other people, but rather that they are all too good at it and have to withdraw in an extreme fashion to protect themselves"
---
It has been my observation that at around 12, a majority of kids can pretty well figure out most of what is going on around them, human interaction wise.
(with severe limitations due to limited experience)
I think that is just about the most vulnerable time for those lacking adult models, attention, mentoring, and etc.
and Ladder - don't let all those well-heeled champagne socialist law partners and painfully self-actualized associates deter you from following your better instincts.
As buddy suggests, you may be able to do more for the war effort by carrying the flag in the legal profession than on the (other) battle-field.
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Cutler,
Be sure to read popa's link to articl on the bin Ladens:
I came out having more respect for their capacity for further evil than I had before.
Doug, you're right. If there is one way to quickly sum up my thinking it is that the great crime of left liberalism is that it fosters false ideas of individual freedom that depend on denying the absolutely central importance of good role models, at 12 for sure, but really at every stage of life. If you don't have 'em when you're young you can spend years chasing words, or worse, heh heh...
This that I posted before goes well with the bin laden article:
"The “Saudi Committee” referenced is likely at least part of the reason that the feds are hustling to shield Arab Bank, despite the wealth of evidence that led to the partial shuttering of the institution’s New York branch."
peers,
Yeah, when y'all see me chasing words around all day, just be thankful it ain't worse!
Now they are even denying the necessity for a period in life called childhood, where kids are protected from the "adult" world.
...all the evidence and common sense to the contrary, including that French guys research.
What was that? Pig O's?
Muslims wouldn't like that.
They'd take Marmite first!
Round up on US - Saudi business relationship. Dumping cash in the Saudi stock market might be interesting:
SUSRIS: So the Saudi stock market is becoming more accepted as a place for people to invest their money?
Omar Bahlaiwa: Oh yes. I'll give you an example. Three months ago there was an initial public offering for shares of Al Balad, a new bank that was established. Fifty percent of the population bought shares. Eight million buyers went to buy shares in that stock. The high level of interest is due to the prospects of the capital market itself.
The stock market is becoming very attractive to Saudis. They have the expectation of at least doubling their money. In the case of Al-Balad Bank the opening share price was about 50 Riyals, or $18. Today a share is worth about 700 Riyals.
http://www.saudi-us-relations.org/newsletter2005/saudi-relations-interest-06-14.html
Wrt the opening Saudi capital markets--the staggering velocity of money, the terror infrastructure within the warp and woof of the mideast economies, plus the fact they can do dirty on a thousandth of a percent of our DoD budget, is mighty sobering. Oh, we gotta keep going after the golden chain--but, jeez, soberly as to expectations.
On the legal front, a Dr. Viet Dinh of Georgetown Univ--one of the framers of the Patriot act-- was just on Fox saying things that need to be said, such as that terroristic speech should lose its First Amendment Protection, that this open espousement of murder in our virtual/real public square is one thing we may eventually have to look at restricting, in order to dry up the AQ incitement.
You all might identify:
My dentist told me the reason I have a swollen jaw and bad toothache this weekend is because I have fractured a molar. I gritted my teeth more than usual over the news from Afghanistan and London lately, but that has nothing to do with it. To those of you who never forget we're in a world war, watch out for your emotions.
Here's something from "Yeager" the autobiography.
"It's a very different war at fifty feet off the ground; you see everything, especially in winter, when cars and trucks and people are easily spotted against a blanket of snow. Coming in so low, my eyes once met with the driver of a German staff car. I was coming straight at him; one quick burst and that car disintergrated, four bodies tossed out on the icy road like rag dolls. Another time, I spotted a five- or six-truck German troop convoy; by the time I swooped down on them, the troops had jumped out and were hunkered down in a roadside ditch. I opened up with my six fifty-caliber machine guns and watched those sparkling butterlies dance right up the line in that ditch. ...
... "By definition, war is immoral; there is no such thing as a clean war. Once armies are engaged, war is total. We were ordered to commit an atrocity, pure and simple, but the brass who approved this action probably felt justified because wartime Germany wasn't easily divided between 'innocent civilians' and its military machine. The farmer tilling his potato field might have been feeding German troops. And because German industry was wrecked by constant bombing, munitions-making was now a cottage industry, dispersed across the country in hundreds of homes and neighborhood factories ...."
Yeager, an Autobiography
Last night on one of the history channel types (Perhaps the military channel, or NYT Discover whatever) they had a special on about the SEALs hell week.
I recall leftists complaining about how the climate was cold and our oh-so tender boys would not be able to deal with it.
Let me tell you if what I saw on that show last night is true at least the SEALs know about cold.
More Yeager:
"The forward air controller pinpointed the ridge as the most probable location of the hidden V.C. They figured it was just honeycombed with underground tunnels. We went in and dropped one bomb at a time. I had a wingman with me, rolled in, picked a point where the ridge seemed most likely to be hiding the V.C., and dropped my bomb. I pulled up, but failed to see an explosion. I thought it was a dud. Suddenly, I saw an eruption of red-brick dust and smoke from either side of the ridge. We later discovered that my delayed-action bomb had gone right down the main entrance to the V.C. tunnel, shored with red bricks. So we went to work on that ridge, and about every other bomb would result in red dust blowing out the side. Two days later, we received a report from Army intelligence that we had killed a tremendous number of V.C. troops. As a wing commander, I was credited with killing fifty V.C. soldiers. And it was pure chance, like a blind man pitching a ringer in horseshoes."
All I can add is the best line from "The Right Stuff" -- "Is that a man?"
Wrethchard has a fitting tribute to recon team (and brings up an interesting point of weakness upon the part of terrorists). I need not repeat what Wretchard wrote.
Next, I do agree with deuceboy431: "I really wish that we had found that last young SEAL alive. But at least we have found him and are bringing him home... they will bounce back and hit those bas****s even harder. They always do.... God bless them all!"
So did I. But, it's water under the bridge. I am just glad to have such fighters on our side. I noticed that one of the 16 Army and Navy fighters killed in the helo crash was one "Petty Officer 2nd Class Eric S. Patton, 22, of Boulder City, Nev... assigned to SEAL Delivery Vehicle Team One, Pearl Harbor, Hawaii [see: DoD release]." I wonder if he was related to Gen. George S. Patton.
In any event, to quote Gen. Patton: "It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died. Rather we should thank God that such men lived."
As for bring justice to those thugs Gen. Patton said: "The quickest way to get it [the war] over with is to go get the b*stards who started it... We're not going to just shoot the sons-of-b*tches, we're going to rip out their living Godd*mned guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks..."
see: Charles M. Province Recounts Gen. Patton's Speech [90% down comments]
See: DoD Release
He was shotdown over WWII France and escaped via thefrench underground. ETO policy was he could never fly in that theater again--a capture/interrogation could compromise the underground. Yeager somehow managed to get back in combat anyway7. No one knows quite how but my dad--8th AAF vet (B-17 pilot shot down on the Regensburg mission on the last day of Big Week, POW in Barth on the Baltic, liberated by Red Army)--said Yeager had made a promise to brass that he'd never be taken alive...and the brass believed him, and let him fly again.
Buddy: You really should read Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors about the Taffy 3 battle at Leyete. It was worse - and more glorious - than you think
Buddy,
Yeager is an undeniable reminder of how meager all of the rest of us are.
That such men walk the earth, like the men we're talking about in this post, THAT is an inspiration.
Great post Ladder.
My sentiments exactly.
rwe--gonna read that for sure. This is some thread. A lot of honesty. That was a good thing you said, trangbang. You guys who've "stared down the reaper"--if there's any justice, someday when we've all gone to the great beyond, you guys will have the seats at the big table, in Valhalla.
Trish:
I agree with Scheuer about the country's and its leadership's [military and political] unseriousness towards warfare. My latest blog post was a very un-pc treatment of the issue of torture and the nature of warfare. So, believe me, I agree with Scheuer 110% there. Unfortunate, we can't "dissolve the people" and off touch institutions such as the mainstream press and academia.
I was already planning to move onto Through Our Enemies Eyes, but unfortunately the bookstore I visit only had the most recent book.
My comment about defeatism was oriented towards "How the West is Losing the War on Terrorism," which I'm half way through, and I do believe is generally defeatist.
However, I'm not dismissing his words and suggestions. It is one of the most brilliant books I've read in a long time, and he references many of my favorite writers, especially Ralph Peters. Indeed, I thought it was unfortunate that so many people on the right quickly labeled labeled him an anti-semite and moved on [although he most certainly is in the Cedarford/Buchanon vein there].
In a way, the media treated him badly by promoting it as purely an anti-Bush book, thereby alienating the very people who should be listening to him. So far, the reality is that in the absence of a political capitulation to Bin Laden and the Muslim world, Scheuer is way to the right of Bush, and the American public. Not exactly what the media was promoting.
Eventually, however, I think we're going to get there, because I have just as dismal a view of the Arab/Muslim world as Scheuer does, especially wrt Arab support for Bin Laden and Al Qaeda. He says what both sides sweep under the table. The ironic thing is that I agree with Scheuer's pessimism towards our chances at avoiding a Clash of Civilizations, but I still think it [Iraq] was/is worth a shot at avoiding it. And unlike Scheuer, I don't think that politically we can or should treat the Muslim world's and Bin Laden's demands seriously. I think it is impractical [we're supposed to influence China, Russia, and India?], invite weakness, immoral [especially the implicit suggestion to throw Israel to the wolves], and that ultimately the demands come from a never-ending well.
Doug, I will do so. And I strongly suggest you read Mike Scheuer's "Imperial Hubris: How the West is Losing the War on Terror." Although I think some of it is over the top, he'll also give you serious pause. It is very un-pc.
Sorry about all the typos/misspellings in the above post, typed it all up quickly.
I tend to think that people do have huge amounts of courage in them.
Time and time again I have been suprised by grit.
The one thing I learned from the military and leadership is that every soldier is precious when the fighting begins.
You don't know who will stand and shoot and who will hide behind the log. Whose voice will rise above the firefight and who will carry ammo to the machine gun. Who will manuever their team or squad under or across your base of fire. Or who will still be able to run after an hour long fire fight. Or trust your orders time after time after time while shaking with fear or exhaustion.
I never knew who had it and who did not until it started.
--
Now look around you. The single mom who completes college. The father who works three jobs. The college athlete who works full time. The high school student whose parents' marriage is falling apart who gets straight A's. The parent up all night with a sick child. The farmer with five hundred calves and no help.
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