Tuesday, July 12, 2005

The Green, Green Grass of Home

British-born suicide bombers were responsible for the London Tube and bus attacks. That's the report from the Hindustan Times.

In a major breakthrough in the July 7 London serial blasts probe, police on Tuesday said all the four suspected bombers were reportedly British-born and died during the terror attacks. While three bombers died in separate Tube attacks, one was killed in the bus blast at Tavistock Place. Deputy Assistant Commissioner of Met Police Peter Clark said all the four men were from Leeds. Outlining the terror itinerary, he said one of them started from West Yorkshire and was joined by the three others en route. All of them took a train to King's Cross early July 7 morning.

The Washington Post has a somewhat similar report.

In a news briefing on the fast-moving investigation into the bombings, police said surveillance cameras showed the four suspected bombers -- all residents of the West Yorkshire area of northern England -- arriving at the King's Cross train station in London shortly before 8:30 a.m. on July 7. Three took the train from the city of Leeds, and the fourth apparently boarded at Luton about 30 miles north of the British capital. ...

The BBC later quoted police sources as saying that all four suspected bombers were British citizens of Pakistani origin. There was no immediate official confirmation from authorities, but police cautioned people against retaliating against any ethnic group.

It will be interesting to see if any of these Britons had been to Iraq. But if they had not, would it not be proof of how 'irrelevant' OIF has been to suppressing terrorism worldwide? Or then again, will this fact not be cited to show how the idea of OIF has inflamed Muslims the world over to go out and strap a bomb on their backs? But why stop there? Why should the inflammatory ideas be limited to to Iraq and not include the preaching of the Jihad?

About the only thing that Operation Enduring Freedom and Operation Iraqi Freedom can accomplish directly is remove the state sponsors of terrorism; only reduce the number of places to which men with the inclinations of these men from Leeds can travel for terrorist training. It cannot reduce the hatred, fanaticism and irrationality that possessed them in the first place. They learned that at home under the heading of 'tolerance' and the cover of political correctness. No air fare necessary.


The Telegraph of India reports police raids in Leeds in the track of the London tube and bus bombers.

London, July 12: Anti-terrorist police looking for the London bombers today searched six homes in West Yorkshire, an area with a large Muslim population, and set off a controlled explosion outside one house to gain access. ... The head of Scotland Yard, Sir Ian Blair, said the raids were “directly connected” to Thursday’s London blasts. ... In the district of Burley near the Leeds Grand Mosque, army personnel were brought in to carry out a “controlled explosion”. About 100 yards away, armed officers earlier took up positions. ... He said police gained entry to the property following the explosion. “Here, we are searching the premises for explosives and bits and pieces,” he added.

Neighbours at one of the addresses raided said a 22-year-old man who lived there with his family had gone “missing”. Police in the area are trying to reassure the public, partly to ensure there is no backlash against the Muslim community. If the four men — suspected to be from the area — are involved, they may not have told their parents or other family members that they were on their way to mount possible suicide missions in London.

(Speculation alert). It's early days yet, but the account above -- if accurate -- suggests that the police think there are surviving members of the terrorist cell and were prepared to meet resistance. "About 100 yards away, armed officers earlier took up positions." They may have also been afraid that the Leeds safehouse, or whatever you want to call it, had been booby trapped or contained explosive in unstable condition. Hence the "controlled explosion" to gain entry. Although the public is being asked to oppose any "backlash against the Muslim community" one of the nagging questions will be how people in the 22-year old age range could have created a bomb factory and planned a suicide attack from this "run-down, mixed-race area dotted with red brick terraced houses" without anybody noticing, especially since the bomb factory may have been "near the Leeds Grand Mosque". As a rule, people don't go from being totally innocent and unmotivated persons to being committed suicide bombers armed with high explosives without passing through any intermediate stages.


Blogger truepeers said...

It cannot reduce the hatred, fanaticism and irrationality that possessed them in the first place. They learned that at home under the heading of 'tolerance' and the cover of political correctness. No air fare necessary.

Yes, aside from shutting down the terror networks, our task is to understand how young men can become terminally resentful, i.e. become suicide bombers and not simply PC functionaries pandering to victimhood as a market strategy, like commercially minded rap artists, or even plain old welfare lager louts. Will there be much appetite for honest and open discussions about the basic free human choice between resentment and love, nihilism and the good? Because such a discussion must be engaged with the future potential terrorists in our midst. or will we forever spin blame games, theories of "root causes" and thereby confuse cause and effect, as if it weren't always our own bloody choice to act out, or not, that was the cause of all good and evil.

7/12/2005 03:30:00 PM  
Blogger Dr. Sanity said...

There is only one outcome of politically correct thinking--a suppression of thought and thinking entirely, and an abrupt disconnect from reality. While the BBC erases the word "terrorist" from their coverage of the London bombings so as not to be unfair or inflame emotions. Yet it is clearly ok for reporters to refer to Bush and Blair as terrorists.

7/12/2005 03:34:00 PM  
Blogger neo-neocon said...

Well, we've heard over and over that the next wave would be citizens; so much harder to monitor and trace. Although it is difficult to contemplate how such people can bring themselves to blow up their fellow citizens, apparently the poisonous Finsbury clerics and others of their ilk have done their jobs of indoctrination well.

As I wrote in this post: There is a delicate balance that needs to be calibrated, both here and abroad, between the protection of those rights that have made the English-speaking world the hallmark of tolerance and freedom, and the need to preserve such freedoms from those who would use them as a platform from which to destroy them.

If we fail, we run the risk of, in Milan Kundera's phrase, "becoming the brilliant allies of our own gravediggers."

7/12/2005 03:35:00 PM  
Blogger exhelodrvr1 said...

While I think it has always been obvious that OIF was not going to stop terrorism in the short term, and that it might increase the number of recruits, I strongly disagree with the following:

"It cannot reduce the hatred, fanaticism and irrationality that possessed them in the first place"

In the long term, OIF, through spreading a better system, is the ONLY thing that MIGHT help permanently reducing the hatred, fanaticism, and irrationality that leads to these acts. And if spreading a better system through the Muslim world does not work, the result will eventually have to be massive destruction rained down on at least part of that world.

7/12/2005 03:50:00 PM  
Blogger Engineer-Poet said...

The lesson that needs to be learned at home is simple:  Only the tolerant are worthy of tolerance themselves.  Ditto national loyalty; the disloyal are undeserving of its protection.  Salafists are the antithesis of tolerance and loyalty, and deserve nothing but detention and deportation regardless of what color their passport is.

7/12/2005 03:58:00 PM  
Blogger Julius Agricola said...

Interesting point. Fareed Zakaria argues that the bombing have failed in part because Muslim public opinion is turning against the terrorists. But, as Wretchard points out, they are homegrown, it seems the bulk of Muslim population in Europe is too far gone to allow us to nourish much hope....


7/12/2005 04:11:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...


7/12/2005 04:14:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Where do you deport one of you own citizens to? These four homey homiciders--what if their parents and siblings got deported, I asked myself. Then i remembered, they're not immigrants, they're Brits, no place to deport to.

7/12/2005 04:16:00 PM  
Blogger Julius Agricola said...

The biggest problem is not as much what other Muslims think, but of what we, in the West, think. I do not see a complete unity in condemning the attacks. And certainly I do not see unity of purpose as to how to proceed from here. Calls to deal with "root causes" (aka poverty) are again loud and clear in Europe (see, for instance, Barbara Spinelli in "La Stampa"--- http://www.lastampa.it/_web/_P_VISTA/spinelli/default.asp).

7/12/2005 04:17:00 PM  
Blogger Don Hodges said...

HUH? You lost me somewhere... did you not say a couple of days ago that OIF prevented "sowing bombs" in London? Or was it "prevented sowing more than four bombs in London"?

OIF is nothing more than a bottomless pit to piss away US/UK resources (not to mention lives and body parts) in a clueless engagement of a modern military with primitives who cannot even distinguish allegory (Slay the infidel!) from reality.

I have been an active conservative and Republican for many years, but this adventure is repugnant on its face and just the possibility that it is politically motivated is enough to separate me from the Bushies. If they took Rove's advice that "a little war would be good for the '04 campaign", then they all should resign in disgrace.

I am not sanguine about the alternatives either, but this $300 Billion+ boondoggle cannot be the answer. Engagement in places like Afghanistan and the other backwaters where actual targets exist, yes! Continuing this clown show in Washington and Iraq, no!

7/12/2005 04:18:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

neo neocon said,
"It's difficul to contemplate..."
"Experts say that it would be a mistake to apply Western patterns of thought to Middle Eastern reasoning.
According to the Wahhabite world view, those who declare war on the West and have killed Western civilians can still love their neighbors at home."
(from der Spiegel bin laden article)

7/12/2005 04:19:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

engineer poet said,
" Only the tolerant are worthy of tolerance themselves. "
But under PC,
The most intolerant make the rules.

7/12/2005 04:21:00 PM  
Blogger truepeers said...

Deport em to Tasmania? If things get bad we will have to consider Israeli methods - in some way punishing the families that produce suicide bombers. When push comes to shove, the mask of liberal individualism has to be removed to reveal the real building block of society, in which responsibility must ultimatel lie: the family.

7/12/2005 04:21:00 PM  
Blogger sirius_sir said...

The hatred, fanaticism and irrationality that possessed these bombers is hard for the West to understand. We want to know why they hate us and, some of us at least, look to our own actions to explain theirs. But as Mark Steyn relates, such a course leads us astray: The easiest way to understand is... to take them at their word. Bassam Tibi, a Muslim professor at Gšttingen University in Germany, gave an interesting speech a few months after 11 September: "Both sides should acknowledge candidly that although they might use identical terms these mean different things to each of them," he said. "The word 'peace', for example, implies to a Muslim the extension of the Dar al-Islam—or 'House of Islam'— to the entire world. This is completely different from the Enlightenment concept of eternal peace that dominates Western thought." Only when the entire world is a Dar al-Islam will it be a Dar a-Salam, or "House of Peace". The objective isn't a self-governing Palestine but the death of the West..."

Or, as Bruce Thornton refers to it, these terrorists are inspired by Islam's divinely sanctioned entitlement to world domination. Why do they hate us? The short answer: We stand in their way.

7/12/2005 04:34:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Truepeers--yes, how else to deter a suicide. other than giving him certain knowledge of recriminations on the family?

And, huge, how else to get the family to notice junior getting weird long before the BOOM? And maybe reining him in somehow--for self-preservation if nothing else.

7/12/2005 04:38:00 PM  
Blogger Jack said...


The Guardian reported the same, labeling the four as "home grown terrorists." It is nice to see they've rediscovered the "t word." They also erroneously headlined their article, calling them the "first British suice bombers," This ignores that a British citizen suicide bombed a Tel Aviv night club in April, 2003. Considering the Israelis are such politically correct targets, "militants" were probably in action there. What's good for the goose is not good for the gander, after all.

7/12/2005 04:39:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Good God--we're headed back to the Dark Ages, to keep from heading back to the Dark Ages.

7/12/2005 04:41:00 PM  
Blogger truepeers said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

7/12/2005 04:43:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

When ya side with yer blood, regardless of the little ink squiggles written down in the Western Law Canon, you've come a long way, baby. But, if that's what it takes, screw it, somebody's gotta win. Might as well be us.

7/12/2005 04:44:00 PM  
Blogger Ticker said...

exhelodrvr said...

"In the long term, OIF, through spreading a better system, is the ONLY thing that MIGHT help permanently reducing the hatred, fanaticism, and irrationality that leads to these acts."

Ironically, fantaticism may receive worse press in Iraq than it does in certain sections of Europe. It may become discredited in the Middle East while remaining fashionable in cafe set of Western intellectuals.

Consider Communism. Where do you suppose it is more popular? In the former Soviet bloc or in Ward Churchill's circle?

You are right. OIF can reduce the global amount of hatred but it may not entirely reduce the homegrown hate.

7/12/2005 04:48:00 PM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

Sooooo, then, we're saying that if you're born in a country, you have a right to stay there, regardless of whether you are contributing to that country's welfare, or are unemployed, or a wannabe suicide bomber? I think deportation of mobs of unemployed "asylum seekers" is a given, but I'm not sure that France, for example, is bound to keep its unassimilated Algerian youth. Isn't that one of those decisions that are up for grabs as we make up the new rules in the War on Terror?

And, equally, if herds of lady-Saudi's fly to the United States three months before they spawn so their Saud-lettes will be American citizens ... I'm pretty sure I'm not thrilled about the abuse of *that* particular loop-hole either.

Any more than I am about Mexicans doing the same thing, but that's a different story and a different fight, so let's not go there right now and just concentrate on the ones who might be trying to blow us up, as opposed to the ones trying to leaf-blower us to death.

7/12/2005 04:51:00 PM  
Blogger RiverRat said...

All the rhetoric about the openness of British society is false. Other than government largess Brits remain insular and extremely race and class conscious if not outright bigoted. Muslims in Britain live largely in racial and religious isolation. Add to this 85-90 years of anti-west and anti-Jewish propaganda from the kleptocracies of Southwest Asia, an insular but fervently evangelical religion that glorifies death, and psychotic Wahhabi Imans and we have all the ingredients of a perfect storm of barbarism.

All it took was a little unintended atmospheric pressure change in 1947 for this perfect storm to start forming. We're now experiencing tornados in the feeder bands. I fear the eyewall of this cyclone is yet to be experienced.

Unfortunately, unlike this weather allegory, we can't heave to and let the storm pass or run off before it. We have to set sail and lay a course to weather at general quarters with the hatches battened down.

A few prayers to a Norse Thor, a Greek Zeus, and maybe a Roman Neptune probably wouldn’t hurt either.

7/12/2005 04:58:00 PM  
Blogger texasviolinist said...

I don't let cockroaches, rats, mice or vermin live in my house because they don't have any value system that supports mutual coexistence. They would infect and contaminate anything I own.

I don't see why I should let any jihadi's live around me either.

7/12/2005 05:05:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Don Hodges, you're not alone in the grinding frustration, but I don't think you believe that absent OIF, the London bombs wouldn't've gone off.

And cost, OIF is still far less than 911, in blood and treasure, and I also don't think you believe that OIF didn't deter any more 911s--on the basis of it cost too much real-estate, too many friendly governments, if naught else.

A few 911s strung together would've meant a far different world than the almost-normal almost-everywhere one of today.

7/12/2005 05:05:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

river rat, damn good post.

7/12/2005 05:07:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


Thanks, Wretchard, for another good contribution to the conversation.

As we have discussed on our blog, OIF has not had a material marginal effect on either the mental state of jihadist candidates
or their technical capacity, especially when compared to the alternative case - leaving Saddam's regime in power and allowing it to run terror training camps such as the U.S. Marines overran at Salman Pak in April 2003.

Fareed Zakaria did point out today that many prominent Moslem figures, even some surprising names, have condemned the London attacks. Perhaps they have read Wretchard's "Three Conjectures"!

That is all helpful and necessary, but not sufficient. There will always be a (hopefully diminishing) few that are eager to cause mayhem. The best way to make them fewer in the future is to demonstrate the futility of their actions. 9/11 was a huge boost to jihadism because it showed, from the jihadist perspective, how glorious and effective jihadism could be. With OIF, the Coalition has a chance to prove the futility of it. This is the way to disillusion and exhaust jihadism. But only if we persist and succeed.

For more rambling on national security strategy and diplomacy, we invite you all to visit our blog.


7/12/2005 05:10:00 PM  
Blogger Engineer-Poet said...

Buddy Larson asks:

"Where do you deport one of you own citizens to? These four homey homiciders--what if their parents and siblings got deported, I asked myself. Then i remembered, they're not immigrants, they're Brits, no place to deport to."

Are they Brits by descent, by family ties, by cultural affiliation?  Most importantly, are they Brits by loyalty?  No, they are not.  If you have some twentieth-generation Yorkshireman yobbo who gets the wrong religion, locking him up for a couple decades is your only option; if he's a second-generation Paki with piles of family in the old country and a taste for extremism, you can put him on the next plane to Karachi AFAI am concerned.

7/12/2005 05:19:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

It was a descent from the Frying Pan into the
Firepits of Hell.tm
First, they were put
Under Sharia Law,
Then came total subjugation under
PC Diarrhea Law.

7/12/2005 05:26:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Yeah, Poet,
Maybe THEY will,
but what about us?

7/12/2005 05:28:00 PM  
Blogger sam said...

Don, ok we let inspections work. Inspectors don't find anything. Sanctions are lifted. Saddam goes on his merry way about building nukes again and we are back to square 1. Do the whole kit and kaboodle all over again. That sounds expensive to me. And you know Saddam would be pursuing nukes even more hastily now that the mullahs are. I wonder what the $ figure is on the constant patrolling of the no-fly zones for 12 years straight?

7/12/2005 05:38:00 PM  
Blogger RiverRat said...

Let us just hope that this British Government reads a little Churchillian history in formulating a response.

It would also help if they would read a little British history for the 1918 to 1940 and 1947 periods so they don't formulate those responses.

Ahhh! The unlearned sins of their grandfathers.

7/12/2005 05:43:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

What's the cost figure on funerals for 5 million?

7/12/2005 05:43:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

But, EP, why would Pakistan take some dubious Brits? Relatives in the old country? What line of descent is strong enough to force a change of citizenship? You'd have to keep the family in the the nation of citizenship, without some sort of international agreement. In time, courts would be bringing out Himmler's physiognomy-measuring calipers.

Internal exile is easier. And let's call 'em gulags, proudly. 30 yrs for a son, 25 for a sibling, 20 for a first cousin, aunt or uncle. 15 for a grandparent. 10 for all known associates.

7/12/2005 05:43:00 PM  
Blogger Karridine said...

And now (July 13, 0745 BKK time) word hits the wires that Britain has PASSED its Muslim-desired "Anti-HateSpeech" thought-crime law.

Maybe the British Baha'is can use it AGAINST the Muslims, to stop Muslim-inspired hate-crimes against the Followers of the Glory of God!

7/12/2005 05:45:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

C4 for Camp Commandant!

7/12/2005 05:47:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Fartuitous Timing, Indeed, Carridine!

7/12/2005 05:52:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Tim McVeigh - home grown terrorist
Do not be to shocked by the knowledge that natives will take up arms against their own.
Rumors are that McVeigh and Nickels had tech assistance from Jihadists in the Philippines. Perhaps true or not.
With our borders so open and the targets so soft there should be no surprise when we are smacked again.
In any case there are many ways to cause an uproar.
We cannot stop all of them.

7/12/2005 05:57:00 PM  
Blogger Karridine said...

See Britain in the larger context, and seek a universal solution, for it will ALSO be suitable for Britain: Initiate a PUBLIC examination of the Islamic prophecies leading to The Glory of God in 1260AH; their close relationship to Jesus' 3 promises concerning The One Like Unto the Son of Man (Matt 24:14, Luke 21:24, Matt 24:15); the fulfillment of His promises in the year 1844 (1260 AH); and the New Teachings brought by the Glory of God, teachings which abhor and forbid suicide-bombing and all forms of hateful extremism!

Initiate a PUBLIC (online) examination of the Glory of God, NOW!

7/12/2005 05:58:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Carradine--you'll never make it sinful to the perps. They say it's resistance to invasion, and that since they can't afford fighter-bombers, they use homiciders. There is a logic to the position.

If we were to face that logic, and get Europe and the USSR and PRC in on it, we could just take over the whole damn mideast and garrison it for 100 years, until the oil is used up and the world has gone on to other energy sources.

Then leave, and see what happens to the jihad without the black gold.

7/12/2005 06:05:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

wretchard told of a small place in Mindanao, on the Zamboangae Pennisula, where in 1995 the Jihadists came a calling.
They burned the town and killed over 50 civilians. I recall W's description of a man, hog tied to a barber chair, doused with gas and set ablaze. Crispy critter for sure. No need of oil or oil money to finance that little piece of depravity.
The oil is a lever and a weapon, while also being the prize.
The Spice will flow

7/12/2005 06:13:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

When the Mahdi marched in the Sudan and threaten Egypt it was not for oil or water. It was for power over the lives of others. Domination for the Grace of God.
Dominion over everything, every aspect of live, for the Mahdi to decide and for others to abide.

Tyranny over the mind of man

7/12/2005 06:21:00 PM  
Blogger StoutFellow said...

I couldn't help but notice that the word "Muslim" was not used in the report by the Hindustan Times or the WaPo. The terrorists were "British citizens of Pakistani descent".

Indeed the British authorities
"urged Britons not to target any minority group for the bombings, saying the attacks were the work of "terrorists and criminals" and should not be used to "smear or stigmatize any community."

Yes by all means let's ignore the central fact that the bombings were carried out by Islamic Fascists and quickly confer protected minority status on them. They were citizens of Islam first, citizens of Great Britain in name only.

Thereis nothing irrational about the actions of these true believers, nor do they represent an increased 'entropy' in the Islamic body politic. They are simply adhering to the norms of their theocratic society as prescribed by their warlord messiah and founding father Mohammed (may he be repeatedly cleaved in half forever in the 7th level of hell).

7/12/2005 06:22:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

rat, one wonders what the gov't response to that was. I'd imagine that was around the time Wretchard called out the commie--the guy he was talking about that had no concept of the evil he was perpetrating. But you're right of course. there is the religious theme to the jihad. I'm also certain there is an oil-price extortuion-dream component, too. Already the "terrorist premium" on a barrell of oil is thought to be 10 or 15 bucks, of the 60 price. the extortion is already working. Perversly, it has a good effect: conservation, capitalization of alternates and inhibition of waste.

7/12/2005 06:29:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Free Speech In Court:
Van Gogh's Killer stood up and crowed that he'd do it again.

7/12/2005 06:29:00 PM  
Blogger Ticker said...

I don't think mass deportation or interment is an answer. How can a Europe which has refused to condemn this hate preaching, which has encouraged 'militants' to express themselves, feted them on TV, fawned at their feet, given them chairs in prestigious universities then turn around and lock up the people who believed that which has been exalted? Isn't there a movement in British Universities to exclude Israeli academics? Isn't George Galloway a Member of Parliament? And how much more guilty is the Pakistani janitor than he.

No I think the first thing is for Europe to honestly denounce the evil idea for what it is. It cannot maintain this evil meme in respectability and cast its adherents into the detention camp. It is intellectual courage, moral courage which they need. Barbed wire can never wholly substitute for that.

7/12/2005 06:29:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"We cannot stop all of them. "
But we could stop a lot more with Profiling.

7/12/2005 06:31:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Excuse me, Oh PC God!

7/12/2005 06:31:00 PM  
Blogger Engineer-Poet said...

Well, Buddy, you don't give them any alternatives.  Fly 'em to Diego Garcia, pick 'em up in a British boat, drop 'em off 10 miles off the coast of Pakistan in a rubber dinghy with a suit of local clothes and some money.

7/12/2005 06:33:00 PM  
Blogger Red River said...

Should be some interesting graphs of the stages people go through to become suicide bombers.

A Hertzsprung-Russell diagram for people.

Once a star goes off the main sequence, it can't help but go boom.



7/12/2005 06:34:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

The Argentine Generals did that with Gays. Loaded up the Tour boat and headed out, each cabin full, a Ship of Fools. Upon it's return from a south Atlantic cruise the ship would dock, no passengers to disembark.

7/12/2005 06:40:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Still haven't found article about the Indians and Pakis exchanging passenger trains with only dead passengers.

7/12/2005 06:42:00 PM  
Blogger Engineer-Poet said...

Continuing that thought, if you sent the Salafists home in 6-man rubber rafts at the rate of 100 rafts a week, you'd need about 22 weeks to export the 1% of British muslims who might be serious Al Qaeda sympathizers.

This is clearly a goal you can accomplish with the physical means to hand, though the political will may be lacking.  And it's a much more humanitarian response than locking people up for decades.

7/12/2005 06:44:00 PM  
Blogger RiverRat said...


No I think the first thing is for Europe to honestly denounce the evil idea for what it is. It cannot maintain this evil meme in respectability and cast its adherents into the detention camp. It is intellectual courage, moral courage which they need. Barbed wire can never wholly substitute for that.

Renouncing the evil idea for what it is will help if it's Koranic genesis is also renounced.

An evil sect can only be purged after it's roots are washed in the pure water of tolerance. The failing of PC multiculturalist liberals is acceptance of the tainted roots while concealing or rejecting the poisoned fruit.

7/12/2005 06:46:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

red river,
Texasviolinist left your cats off his list.
Maybe next time you should wait until your cat is killed.

7/12/2005 06:47:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Not more humane than Gitmo!
(but of course the country would be bankrupted.)

7/12/2005 06:49:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Well, we're being a little Swiftian, I'm sure, Wretchard. I think we are, anyway. EP is onto something, tho. have to get arounsd due-process. What is the threshold for declaring Martial Law? Maybe the ideal that Wretchard states would then be incentivized unmistakeably to even the featheriest of our feather-brains. 5 years of Martial law--sunset it from the beginning. The Left wants a timetable? Everyone needs to know the plan (even the jihad)? Fine, here's a timetable; 5 years of Martial Law, and not one minute more (if all is going ok by then).

Take this for what it's worth, but one of the thought-weapons hitler used to loyalize the less-mesmerized SS was the idea of "One hard century, then mankind will thank us for eternity".

No, I'm not a hitlerite--but the idea was pure human-nature twained: "If things get bad enough, we could have a terrible, but term-limited, house-keeping, with Elysium on the other side."

It would be kinder to Islam than firing off the SSBN inventories.

7/12/2005 06:50:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

This quote from a 2002 Socialist report

'Maaro! Kaapo! Baalo!'
State, Society, and Communalism in Gujarat
People's Union for Democratic Rights (PUDR)
May 2002
"...Images of corpse filled trains are so potent a symbol in India because they inevitably conjure up the actual and inscribed memories of Partition, when trains from either side of what became India and Pakistan would arrive with dead bodies. The burning of the Sabarmati Express at Godhra on the morning of February 27 is destined to become an intrinsic part of a new 21st century partition narrative, unless something can be done to stop the poison spreading.

The Sabarmati Express had been full of karsevaks on their way back from Ayodhya. They had gone to help construct a Ram temple on the site of the Babri Masjid, which an earlier generation of karsevaks had demolished ten years ago. And now some of them were being brought back dead, burnt alive in a horrifying and gruesome attack, by a Muslim mob just outside Godhra station. ..."

7/12/2005 06:50:00 PM  
Blogger Oengus said...

Sigh. Once the Loony Mullahs get their nukes and decide to make them "open source", it will be a whole new ball game. And it won't be over with until there are millions dead.

7/12/2005 06:54:00 PM  
Blogger tommy said...

These activities will not end until the expatriate Muslim community is made to pay for the excesses of its spawn. They must be made to know that they are either for Western culture or against it. If they cannot accept the societies that have embraced them, they must be made to know that their new found homes will not allow them to remain. Methinks that would be incentive enough to inform the proper authorities of upcoming terrorist activities.

7/12/2005 06:56:00 PM  
Blogger tommy said...

These activities will not end until the expatriate Muslim community is made to pay for the excesses of its spawn. They must be made to know that they are either for Western culture or against it. If they cannot accept the societies that have embraced them, they must be made to know that their new found homes will not allow them to remain. Methinks that would be incentive enough to inform the proper authorities of upcoming terrorist activities.

7/12/2005 06:57:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

And that's all little Chuckie Schummer needed for another PC Jihad.

7/12/2005 07:01:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

5 years of Martial Law, and not one minute more (if all is going ok by then).

7/12/2005 07:03:00 PM  
Blogger RiverRat said...


Can we call Wretchard the Concord Ave. Clay Pit Cat? :)

7/12/2005 07:05:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Tommy, you're on it, alright. The proudest advance of the 20th century, the reasoning away any hint of the respectability of racism, is being undone before our very eyes. Bad drives out good.

Much of homegrown jihadis setting off bombs, we'll be back to the sensibility of the Raj: advanced weapons make right. Might makes right.

Such a bloody, awful shame, to be dragged backwards by the consuming hatreds of such a small number of humans.

7/12/2005 07:10:00 PM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

While I totally admire Wretchard's staunch refusal to move past what has been done in the past, what our current laws are, and what our expectations have always been, I would like to point out that the rules have been changed.

We are fighting an enemy which does not recognize the Geneva Conventions, which does not recognize charity or brotherhood or Christianity, and which does not even recognize 50% of humanity.

While Wretchard's posts indicate that he is both an officer and a gentleperson of honor, I remain unconvinced that we must stick with our current laws in the face of those new rules.

And I challenge Wretchard to begin to *think* at least about how maybe we could start to change the current paradigms to fit the current reality, because it's questionable whether it's working. And if it's not working, then, simply, eventually there will be nothing left to save.

7/12/2005 07:16:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"As a rule, people don't go from being totally innocent and unmotivated persons to being committed suicide bombers armed with high explosives without passing through any intermediate stages"
But PC is very Strong Medicine.

7/12/2005 07:20:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Hey, Bud,
We were being pulled there by the lefties and their PC, Jihadis or no Jihadis.

7/12/2005 07:23:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Goes to show ya, nothing stands still. PC tries to arrest thought, but if thought can't move forward, it'll move backward.

7/12/2005 07:23:00 PM  
Blogger Jack said...

One thing I'm wondering, and perhaps someone can shed light on it.

How do you move so quickly from initial investigation, to nailing a bomb making factory? Unless you already had a good idea what was going on and just ignored it? Or you're putting the screws, literally, to people who know? Immediate tips from people who were too cowardly to inform earlier?

7/12/2005 07:24:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

You're right. "Respectable" Dems are calling tonight not for Rove's firing, but for his arrest for Treason. And on an imaginary charge. It's Truepeers' "Hysteria" thesis, embodied. The long-net scoops up jihadis in the deep, a major party's leaders a little closer to the surface.

7/12/2005 07:29:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

For 9-11, it was a matter of hours.
(but we
"Never could have stopped it.")

7/12/2005 07:30:00 PM  
Blogger Ticker said...

You ain't seen nothin yet. If people are ticked off over a few bitty little bombs in a British subway, just wait until the Jihadis get around to the big time stuff. Which is what I've been saying all along: unless we shut down the guilty in an effective way people are going to give the innocent a wood shampoo. But we can't even keep the perps in Guantanamo Bay without the ACLU getting all hot and bothered, can't even ask George Galloway some pertinent questions, questions your dogcatcher could ask you, without the media portraying it as the new McCarthyism. Cap'n Hook Hamza is awaiting extradition to the US but he ain't going if the British Left has anything to say about it. So we want the Brits to put the squeeze on expatriate Muslim communities? Not likely.

Not likely until we start doing things like shutting down maddrassas, closing those hate mosques and naming the enemy, which is radical Islam. Was that so hard to say? Now if things get to the point where folks have to be put behind the wire or deported, because there is no other way, well that day will come when it will. But A before B. Not B before A.

7/12/2005 07:32:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Hasn't Rove killed millions of impoverished Democrats?

7/12/2005 07:32:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

...mentally impoverished.

7/12/2005 07:32:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Emerson had a video that said it loud and clear, what, nearly a decade ago now?

7/12/2005 07:35:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

7/12/2005 07:39:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

I agree, Wretchard. But A may never move if B doesn't jostle it a bit. That's why we're talking crazy stuff, nukes and barbed wire and mass deportation. Crazy stuff makes more crazy stuff. But you do have a good point, that talking crazy itself desensitizes the craziness out of it in time. So I'll shut up. Just, sometimes it gets dark.

7/12/2005 07:39:00 PM  
Blogger Don Hodges said...

I am not frustrated, I am enraged by the Bush crowd squandering an elite military on a fool's errand, chasing (admittedly clever and very dangerous) primitives around their own country at enormous expense with no prospect of "winning". As you better-read posters have said, this is not a rational state-vs-state conflict, and using state-altering force to chase psychotic cultists is just as nutty as bombing log bridges with B-52's was in my day. The result will be similar - these wonderful young warriors will see through the folly of their superiors and abandon the military to its lowest common denominator, the incompetent "lifers" who will have to be rousted out again to rebuild the forces.

Can you imagine what $300 Billion will buy in MI5/MI6/SEAL/SAS/border patrol type operatives and intel support? We should know every time a "jihadi" goes for a shit in a Western nation, and if he doesn't come back when expected we should be able to fetch him dead or alive.

Pounding around in a distant sandpile with Blackhawks, humvees, aircraft carriers(!), cafeteria contractors, campaign hacks, and the like while a primitive death cult is proliferating worldwide is absolutely nuts.

Its just a matter of time until we have declared victory and left them to their hellhole (again)... If only they were as industrious as the Vietnamese, maybe they could bootstrap themselves into modernity - but not likely. These people seem intent on revisiting a brutish medieval culture which can only be changed from within, a project of centuries. The sooner we get out of their way the better.

7/12/2005 07:47:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"Jihad in America
Author explains how he made video, lived to tell about it

In Steve Emerson's latest book, "American Jihad: The Terrorists Living Among Us," he reveals how active Islamic terror cells have infiltrated the United States and explains the increasing threat the U.S. faces.
WorldNetDaily today presents part of chapter 1 of "American Jihad."
Tomorrow's edition will feature the remainder of the chapter.

. Patriot Progress

7/12/2005 07:54:00 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

Wretchard is right. It is the leftist intellectuals that have opened the door for the islamic radicals. They have undercut the basis of western society - rationality - by denying the existence of or the possibility of knowing right and wrong.

But its not just their blathering that has weakened us. Its the fact that their blathering has entrenched itself in public policy. We need to rollback these corruptions of our laws. But what are the corruptions specifically? What new (or old) philosophy that will tell us exactly how to compose just law? It isn't Christianity. John Locke, our founding father's favorite philosopher, would be closer to the mark. But the reason the leftists made so much progress in the 20th century was that they found real vulnerabilities in Lockean philosophy. Their critiques of Locke must be answered. Ayn Rand answered them. But she was an atheist. So she will continue to be ignored.

In the absence of a rational philosophy the west will fall back on Christianity. After being slaughtered enough by Muslim extremists Christian exteremists will rise to power. I don't mean GW. I'm thinking more along the lines of Pat Bucchannan. Draconian measures will be enacted that will sure enough turn back the muslim advance. It will at the same time all but obliterate the constitution and the country established by Franklin, Jefferson, Adams, Madison, Hamilton, Washington, et al.

Will Objectivism find a voice that will lead the west out of the nihilism of the Left, and save us from the theocratic state? Will all remain deaf to Ayn Rand and fall further and further into right wing extermism? Will the western democracies continue dithering over these possibilities until the Muslims have destroyed us all? Stay tuned . . .

7/12/2005 07:55:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Don, you don't believe that the progress so far, the rising markets and economic and employment indicators in not just Iraq but an optimism- responding USA, Europe, Latin America, and Asia, the Iraqi political process in-the-making, the chance to "lift" the whole region, the "Arab Spring" of Libya, Lebanon, Kuwait (women's suffrage, which means it can never be voted down again!), the democracy movements in Ukraine and the 'stans, reform movements in Egypt, Syrian Baath falling apart, Afghanistan, the uncriminalizing of UN and major Euro governments, etcetera, means enough to justify the cost?

7/12/2005 08:01:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Trish outta love Hodges next to last Paragraph!

7/12/2005 08:01:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Emerson's Video showed these guys spewing hate and violence in USA Mosques
...In 1992!

7/12/2005 08:04:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...


7/12/2005 08:06:00 PM  
Blogger Kyda Sylvester said...

The shock and disbelief of the local community when terrorists are found in its midst wears a little thin.

Ten days ago Shahzad Tanweer, a 22-year-old British Asian, was playing cricket in the local park with his friends. It was something he loved to do. He was a sporty young man who loved martial arts, drove his dad's Mercedes and had many friends in the Beeston area of Leeds.

"He is sound as a pound," said Azi Mohammed, a close friend. "The idea that he was involved in terrorism or extremism is ridiculous. The idea that he went down to London and exploded a bomb is unbelievable. link

Well, no, obviously he wasn't "sound as a pound" and while a seasoned operator may be capable of successfully living a double life, often for years, without detection, novice teenage boys and young men as a rule are decidedly not. Family, friends, neighbors, the local imams all claiming unqualified bewilderment simply is not credible.

As we delved into the lives of Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold after the Columbine massacre, we found that they had been laying clues to their future behavior all over town. The obtuseness of the adults around them was nothing short of willful.

Rooting out the fanatics is a hard enough row to hoe. Without the cooperation and assistance of their communities and mosques, it becomes close to impossible. I hope those communities wake up to that fact sooner than later, because if it's later, it just might be too late.

7/12/2005 08:17:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

we have made headway afainst the Jihadists, but at the same time, so what?
There is no matrix of victory, either in Iraq or the WoT. There are no enemies but faceless evil doers. Border Bandits in a simpler day. How realistic is their Nuclear threat, stolen Soviet equipment, or home grown Iranian or N Korean. Given their capabilities do they have capacity. Is fighting their percieved Nuclear threat better done in Iraq or Pakistan or New York?
Peter Goss says he knows where Bin Laden is, maybe those dead SEALS did too.
It is time to get serious or come home.
Start with a list of the Opfor, who what where why. simple enough. If this information is so sensitive to the war effort perhaps the efforts are misguided.

7/12/2005 08:18:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

We know that the MS-13 Salvadoran Street gand has branches operating in CA. We know they move tons of illicit drugs and people across our frontier each year. We know they operate in cahoots with Hugo Chavez, who is allied with Castro. We know that Jihadists have expressed an interest in smuggling people and equipment in to US.
Let us connect the dots.
Tell me again why there are 130,000 protecting Baghdad and the Minute Men milita are securing our southern flank?
No disrespect to those fine folks but MM is MICKY MOUSE
US deserve better

7/12/2005 08:36:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

rat, if it stays like it is now, and can't be moved, and is just more and more of the same forever--then it's time to go fortress america. But, the command in theater keeps saying "progress is being made"...don't we have to listen to them?

7/12/2005 08:39:00 PM  
Blogger ex-democrat said...

Don H: “We should know every time a "jihadi" goes for a shit in a Western nation, and if he doesn't come back when expected we should be able to fetch him dead or alive.”
Sounds impressive, but how do you plan to make that a reality in the world we actually inhabit?

7/12/2005 08:40:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Kyda, that link is beyond creepy.

7/12/2005 08:41:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Kid just took a 20k pay cut to work for the AF, and he's happy as a clam.
It's the thought that counts.
...but as we all know:
Only indigent sub morons w/ no other way out have such thoughts.

7/12/2005 08:45:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Someone call for Imam al Doug?

7/12/2005 08:46:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Lota boots on the ground say the same thing, Bud.

7/12/2005 08:47:00 PM  
Blogger Ticker said...

"Sound as a pound" The fish-n-chip seller next door. Meanwhile, Tim Blair says:
"Isn’t that nice. Meanwhile Australian Sam Ly remains in critical condition with serious head injuries, while Gillian Hicks has had her legs amputated." That could ruin your day. Already the BBC is retrospectively editing its stories to remove the word "terrorist", which had crept into its copy in a moment of distraction. It's already someone else's fault.

I always wondered why a prohibition against lying was included in the Ten Commandments. The authors of Exodus and Deuteronomy must have understood the absolutely lethal consequences of falsehood and the worst kind of lie is the kind you invent and wind up believing yourself. The gospel of John says the same thing in the negative: "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

One of my jobs, in a purely secular sense, is to ensure the integrity of the datastores that I work with. I would never willingly corrupt the data. One might conceivably lie for as long as one could always return to the facts. For that reason the truth is valuable even to a liar. But what happens when a society starts believing its own fictions? What happens when I make up my own data? And how is this different from the wilfull ignorance which called 'political correctness'? Then you are truly lost; as lost as a damned soul in Sheol.

7/12/2005 08:48:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Sure progress is being made, in Iraq. When will enough progress be enough? How about progress in the other theaters.
If a million criminals cross our southern frontier moving tons of contraband with them each year, and they do. How are we to protect the US from Opfor infiltation?
Is that not a greater threat to my daughter and her school mates than an Ali Babba looting an Iraqi museum or the killing a rival Islamic Imam in Baghdad?
If these Jihadists are really such a Global threat, then yes, fortify the frontier until this War is over.

7/12/2005 08:48:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"The authors of Exodus and Deuteronomy must have understood the absolutely lethal consequences of falsehood.
...and the worst kind of lie is the kind you invent and wind up believing yourself.
The gospel of John says the same thing in the negative:
"And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

7/12/2005 08:53:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

If stopping suicide bombings is the standard we had better get more troops to Israel and England. Lord knows they will not be able to handle their countries without US helpers.
If there is some other standard to measure success by, why I'd like to hear it.

7/12/2005 08:55:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Now you're starting to tread on WSJ Editorial Opinion, 'Rat, look out.
...might shatter Bud's belief system, not to mention GWB.

7/12/2005 08:55:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

God, I love throwing firebrands!
Shoulda been a Professor!

7/12/2005 09:00:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

The real threat could be that we have created a Global boogie man and "... the worst kind of lie is the kind you invent and wind up believing yourself. ..."

7/12/2005 09:01:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

The ones in Israel are not actually SUICIDE bombs.
They are heroic freedom fighter bombs.
Praise be to Allah!

7/12/2005 09:02:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

WSJ and Bud think border can be addressed "later."

7/12/2005 09:03:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Some strings go all the way back to JFK...one of them is a turn from the media reality-break of "perception is reality" from a distasteful Eisenhower-era acceptance to a next era not-distasteful-at-all primary tool of leadership.

It never was able to get off the glamor highway, that idea that perception is reality--rather than the truth that reality contains infinite perceptions, that go where they will, bereft of a rally point.

7/12/2005 09:06:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

route 66?

7/12/2005 09:06:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...


7/12/2005 09:07:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

I have some property along old route 66, great area to recreate in.
Later may well be to late.
The defense of the homeland starts at the front and back doors. It may be nice to have a patrolman cruisung the street or casing out the gangsta's turf, but if you leave your doors unlocked...
GWB not withstanding, his doors are well guarded.

7/12/2005 09:12:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"The obtuseness of the adults around them was nothing short of willful."
Qualifies as Evil in my book.

7/12/2005 09:12:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Kid says Secret Service don't make much, is that true?

7/12/2005 09:14:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

I know the Army is streeeeeched and patrols on the border would cut into reenlistments. Better to be less secure and save the troopies the stress.

7/12/2005 09:15:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

A Ship Without a Rudder.

7/12/2005 09:17:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

The desks would get dusty.

7/12/2005 09:17:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Doug, I live between two cities--fast growing and oft acclaimed as "best places to live, start businesses, etc" all over the press. Austin and san Antone, both towns are a third to two-thirds hispanic. I worked all thru Latin America, a field tech liasoning with the natives. I've been around the beaners so much we don't even notice each other, even tho I'm a cracker. All my life I've been around guys trying to immigrate legally but in t6he meantime, gotta try to find a way to feed mama and the kids. So, tho i know the stats are scary, the people aren't, in my experience. I know I'm wrong, but can't I have a pass on this one issue? I know Cali, Ariz got it a lot worse with the gangs. No gangs around here, tho, people pack guns, so crime is almost a non-issue

7/12/2005 09:19:00 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

7/12/2005 09:20:00 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

don hodges,
The real target is sitting pretty in Makkah/Yathrib.

Now, how do you intend to get at him? That is, without having oil supply from Iraq (and Iran) secured first?

7/12/2005 09:20:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Maybe it's his soccer coaches fault.
Probably yelled too loud.

7/12/2005 09:21:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

civil service dough, how much bread do you think is alot or enough?

7/12/2005 09:22:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

It's the same country Bud.
You've got good, friendly Mexicans.
That doesn't obviate other realities.
Lethal Realities.

7/12/2005 09:24:00 PM  
Blogger Red A said...

Since they were of Pakistani origin, it's less likely that they would be concerned about Palestine or Iraq, both are "Arab" issues.

These guys would most likely be angry about Afghanistan where their ethnic Pashto brethern were under threat.

7/12/2005 09:25:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

A lot is never enough.
But I'm still glad he took the pay cut.
Proud, even.

7/12/2005 09:25:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Said i knew I was wrong not to be harder. What, I'm not a goddamn wetback smuggler--I just don't friggin' fixate on Pancho cutting my throat.

7/12/2005 09:27:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

I don't think Desert and I do either.
Not what we were talking about.

7/12/2005 09:29:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

change the law so the honest are not made criminal.
You are saying we should nuke Medina but leave the southern frontier open. No there is no pass for that kind of thinking. It is a war or not. If you think we should raze cities, then a little economic discomfort to our Mexican neighbors should be inconsequential

7/12/2005 09:29:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

So why say it?

7/12/2005 09:29:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Why don't YOU do something Mauna Loa pumping all that carbon into the atmosphere?

7/12/2005 09:29:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

I give up.
No one home.

7/12/2005 09:31:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Sorry, yours is 9:29 too.
We'll see what comes next.

7/12/2005 09:32:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

No, no, no...I was taking the voice of what's to come, present trends continue. No, I'm with you on the need for controlled, measured terror war. And not for an open boeder. Doug just wants me to get on board rhetorically, and I can't muster it. said i knew I was wrong. Would prefer a closed border. We could fence it for 5 bill--we ought to start, maybe. But, foreign workers are a sixth of Mexico's economy--and if the Mex gov't ever went Syrian on us--THAT's when you'll get the institutional world-political problem.

7/12/2005 09:35:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

I am not worried about Mexicans crossing the frontier, a separate issue, but with Islamic warriors crossing in an attempt to raise havoc, releasing the dogs of war.
Think DC Sniper, multiply by ten or fifteen, simultaneously across the US. Walk across the border with enough cash in hand and suitable forged documents. Even a simpleton like me could run that scenario.

7/12/2005 09:35:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

" Doug just wants me to get on board rhetorically,"
Which rhetoric is unacceptable?

7/12/2005 09:39:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Well, rat, that's a horror scenario whether from Canada, Mexico, or rowboat from offshore passing ships on our ten thousand miles of nightime-empty seashores.

7/12/2005 09:39:00 PM  
Blogger Common Cents said...

The west should be fighting an insurgency. What the powers that be believe they are fighting(misunderstanders of Islam?), I don't know.

What does this mean?

At least a couple of things. There should be a propaganda war against the enemy (Islam). And those who incite the cause(certain easily identifiable Imams) should be destroyed.

There is no possibility of these items coming to pass before a large tragedy. I pray this doesn't happen. I assume it will.

7/12/2005 09:40:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Issue of Mexico's economy require internal reforms, until there is a need they will not reform.
Like the Iraqis, and most people, they will continue on the path of least resistance.
Stand up the Iraqis, they'll do just find. Let the Mexicans look at their internal challenges from a new perspective. It could change their reality.

7/12/2005 09:41:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

If the money we give away in Health Care was invested down there, plus a fraction of what we invest in China and etc.
Seems like that would be significant.

7/12/2005 09:43:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

There's an israel-sizwed chunk of texas seashore south of corpus christi with hardly a soul there even in the daytime. Barrier isles and river littorals, mudflats, no white sand and blue surf, the sea is brown from the rivers to the north--king ranch country--no watchers, easy seas, close to latin american shipping.

7/12/2005 09:43:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

If being economically open to China is supposed to fix it, why wouldn't a similar agenda work with Mexico?

7/12/2005 09:44:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

What rhetoric do you reject?

7/12/2005 09:45:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Row boats do not already enter by the hundreds of thousands annually. There are not 'coyotes' in place ready to ferry their human contraband across the frontier on the Northern border. It is only on the Southern Frontier that an active human smuggling operation is running 24/7. With safe houses and truck transport already inplace, for hire. If I looked like a Mexican I would not sneak in thru Canada, no I'd use natural profilable camo.
Hiding in p;ain sight

7/12/2005 09:47:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

How long have those businesses had to get armed and organized, Rat?

7/12/2005 09:49:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Maybe they have a code of Business Ethics.
Coke, Fine.
Bombs, Bad.

7/12/2005 09:50:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

rat, in latin-land a day is a week--sort of like the French and Italians--they do things incrementally and cautiously. The things you suggest ARE happening--Nafta and the coming Cafta are doing/will do miracles. but tho the gap is closing, to where the incentives won't be there to head north, it will take time to do it. a lurch will cause disorder, and not return sh*t in the way od security. it's a velvet-glove policy. look at the capital flows that used to ALWAYs go out of aMex--last several years, the flow has reversed. the Mex financial markets are charting 45 degrees up, since Nafta and the Bush election. It's happening the way we want it to, just slower than is comfortable. Pemex exports, and the higher oli prices are making jkobs in Mexico. That plus the maquiladores are making the changes. problem is, USA is growing econ so fast in SW that the incentives keep rising, too, to come north. But there's more positive going on than meets the eye.

7/12/2005 09:53:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Landing on a beach means having some one caome and get you. It is a long walk from Padre Island to Houston. The 'coyotes' will deliver you to any North American city of your choice, if the price is right.
MS-13 and the FARC, millions in drug cash and violence as a way of life. No mercenary fodder there.
The guys in the next 9/11 are not even going to be "home grown". Just Mexican rag.

7/12/2005 09:55:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

But, build the fence, and patrol it, I'll back the security option every time. won't stop a terrorist, tho...just re-route him.

7/12/2005 09:58:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"a lurch will cause disorder, and not return sh*t in the way od security. "
There are orders of disorder, and controling the border is minor compared to some that come easily to mind.
...and you still haven't said what rhetoric you reject.

7/12/2005 09:59:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

The dope trade gets over the border from Fla to Baja, mostly in ways that the coyotes can't haul flesh.

7/12/2005 10:00:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Ya gotta have the perfect solution on this, Rat.
All else is not enough.
...wrote final first, I'm not THAT stupid.

7/12/2005 10:01:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Have a reason for refusing to answer me Bud?

7/12/2005 10:02:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

The challenges to the Mexican economy are well understood, I agree that the present course is prudent, economics. The discussion is security. If the Jihadists have, really have, access to a nuke then the open border is inexcusable, no debate. If they do not then we are back to "... the worst kind of lie is the kind you invent and wind up believing yourself. ..."
How could we possibly raze Medina after a nuke is smuggled across in Naco AZ and detonated in Denver. We could have stopped them at our frontier with an Army patrol.
If the Army is good enough to secure Baghdad, why not some security from San Diego to Brownsville

7/12/2005 10:03:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

I didn't reject any rhetoric, dammit, Surf king. It's just you're clockwork with the border rhetoric, and ever since we had thissame argument a year ago, you do the comments like above--scroll up--so i complained a bit, that's all. Sue me, goddammit.

7/12/2005 10:04:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

The Iraqis are good enough to do part of the job.
Why not some REAL pressure on Fox and friends to make some changes?
...but we all know the answer to that.
I call it corruption.

7/12/2005 10:05:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"Doug just wants me to get on board rhetorically, and I can't muster it."

7/12/2005 10:07:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

I should sound like JFK2 on this issue?

7/12/2005 10:08:00 PM  
Blogger ledger said...

I agree with wretchard's premise: "...the only thing that Operation Enduring Freedom and Operation Iraqi Freedom can accomplish directly is remove the state sponsors of terrorism..." But, that alone should not be understated! Further, there are a few countries that export men, materials, and terrorists ready of action. Also, I am not convinced that these Pakistani Muslims who killed over 50 people did not get some form of state sponsorship (there are indications that the explosives used were of military grade, logistics of the operation a split second timing).

Next, Wretchards update notes: "...one of the nagging questions will be how people in the 22-year old age range could have created a bomb factory and planned a suicide attack from this "run-down, mixed-race area dotted with red brick terraced houses" without anybody noticing, especially since the bomb factory may have been "near the Leeds Grand Mosque". As a rule, people don't go from being totally innocent and unmotivated persons to being committed suicide bombers armed with high explosives without passing through any intermediate stages.

Which leads us back to "What the Butler Saw." One could conclude many in the area where in the know - it's just too big of an operation to go unnoticed (sure you get the usual "they were nice kids quotes - but that standard practice - someone knew) Let's look at so facts.

[For reasons unknown, British authorities suppressed the "suicide bomber" theory - only to have to admit it later]

...Sky [News] said a decapitated head found near the scene had been that of the bomber.
Forensic tests then led police to carry out raids on Tuesday in Leeds, northern England and to a car at Luton railway station north of London, Sky said

See: bomber


...Investigators picking through the devastated bus found a body wearing clothes similar to those Mr Hussein was last seen in, and noticed that he appeared to have been very close to the blast, prompting suspicions he might have been the bomber.
Told to look out for someone of Mr Hussein's description on security camera footage from Kings Cross, other investigators saw him inside the station with three other young men, all carrying rucksacks. The suspected bombers' bodies were identified by driving licences and credit cards which survived the blasts

[Organization very good for youngsters]

...The four men travelled to London on the day of the blasts and were recorded on closed-circuit television carrying rucksacks at King's Cross rail station shortly before 8:30am local time, police said. Three bombs exploded within 50 seconds of each other at 8:50am on subway trains that had all passed through King's Cross. A fourth exploded 57 minutes later on a bus not far away.

[The Pakistan connection]

...Citing intelligence sources, the newspaper says at least two of the men had just returned from Pakistan, but none were on the files of security services. The paper said Mr Hussein had gone "a bit wild" as a younger teenager, but had became devoutly religious about 18 months ago.

See: Break

[Military Explosives]:

High-grade military explosives appear to have been used in the London bombings last Thursday, a senior French counter-terrorism officer has said. "The nature of the explosives appears to be military, which is very worrying," said Superintendent Christophe Chaboud, the chief of the French anti-terrorist police, who was in London to assist Scotland Yard...

Detectives have concluded that a single bomb maker built all four devices as similar components were found at all four blast sites, the Times of London reported Tuesday.

See: London bombers used 'military' explosives

[Explosives found in car]

Explosives have been found in a car identified by police as being linked to last Thursday's London terror attacks. Police evacuated Luton railway station... Four controlled explosions were carried out on the car after a 100-yard cordon was placed around the station and its car park.

...detectives later identified a second suspect car in Leighton Buzzard, Bedfordshire. Police were alerted to the Luton car after a member of the public reported seeing four men getting out of it on Thursday morning.

See: Explosives found

[Canary Wharf bombers shot - but where are the bodies?]:

A New Zealander working for Reuters in London says two colleagues witnessed the unconfirmed shooting by police of two apparent suicide bombers outside the HSBC tower at Canary Wharf in London. [Day of the attack]

The New Zealander... said the killing of the two men wearing bombs happened at 10.30am on Thursday (London time). Following the shooting, the 8000 workers in the 44-storey tower were told to stay away from windows and remain in the building for at least six hours, the New Zealand man said. He was not prepared to give the names of his two English colleagues, who he said witnessed the shooting from a building across the road from the tower

See: Bombers Shot

[Even with 50 dead there is still unbridled incendiary hate speech by Hani Sibai]:

Al-Siba'i: The term "civilians" does not exist in Islamic religious law... If Al-Qaeda indeed carried out this act, it is a great victory for it. It rubbed the noses of the world's eight most powerful countries in the mud. This victory is a blow to the economy...

London Islamist: No Civilians Under Islamic Law


London Islamist: No Civilians Under Islamic Law 2

Now, I agree with RiverRat's assessment, "...Brits remain insular and extremely race and class conscious if not outright bigoted. Muslims in Britain live largely in racial and religious isolation. Add to this 85-90 years of anti-west and anti-Jewish propaganda from the kleptocracies of Southwest Asia, an insular but fervently evangelical religion that glorifies death, and psychotic Wahhabi Imans and we have all the ingredients of a perfect storm of barbarism..."

Yes, and what is worse the British have solicited these people to enter their country with lush social handouts and lax immigration checks. These immigrants and their family's soon find out how easy it is to game the system and collect money. Then they openly preach violence to their youths. When caught they hire slick British lawyers to defend them. It's a travesty.

[I'll repeat some need actions]:

It's clear that Blair and MI6 (or the current internal security apparatus) needs to do a great deal of house cleaning [in there own back yard]. This house cleaning would encompass the actual application of a UK version of the Patriot Act, interrogating this one eye'd "Cleric" for additional information in the recent terror killings, freezing terrorist's funds, adjusting the deportation rules for mass killers, enabling UK special agents to liquidate terrorists before they detonate the bombs, and the realization that certain organizations or states that sponsor terrorism must be neutralized by military action.

Further, Blair must start using the alley fight set of rules. He must use agents and/or proxy fighters to eliminate certain "clerics" and financiers of said terror "clerics." He must also get the message out that "either you are with us or against us." The George Galloway's of the political world must feel Blair's wrath. And, in the final analysis, if it comes down to UK survival, the "Dresden Option" must be considered [on state sponsors of terror].

In addition, Bush Administration must be willing to let the UK fully defend itself (i.e.: if the Syrians, Saudis, or Pakistanis are the root of the problem then let the British extract justice). This goes from top to bottom, all the terror sponsors are targets, information sharing and operational sharing are a must do.

The British came to America's aid in the Iraq and Afghan war. We must be prepared to do the same.

And, we must realize that if the war requires utter destruction of certain terrorists strongholds - then so be it. Let's get it done quickly.

See prior post

7/12/2005 10:09:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

All for it. rat. But--not to whip a dead horse, a coyote won't haul in the nuke. It won't come in under a load of watermelons. The border isn't THAT open. There's so much wide open land--you know it--that you're talking what 20 divisions to drive by any one point once a night? What kind of fence? immune to bolt cutters and plenty high.

7/12/2005 10:11:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

What is Hillary's position on this?
Mum, no doubt.
She'll amble in to the WH if things play out right.

7/12/2005 10:12:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Plead ignorance, so forgive if stupid question:
Some have suggested a big freeway project w/fence.

7/12/2005 10:13:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Lots of backpacks used in the AZ trade. I guess that is because we have the 'mules'

We are talking teams of three to five infiltrating the border, possibly with luggage. Under cover of the 100,000 innocents that each month cross the US border illegally, the commando team walks silently over the US frontier on well worn paths.

Produce trucks are also used in both the drug and human transit.

7/12/2005 10:13:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

But to me the fence issue is sort of a red herring:
The minutemen proved that, to some, at least.

7/12/2005 10:14:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Ahhh, yes...Fox News is behind it all. Well, Doug, I hereby lift my magical power to prevent you from getting to the bottom of it all.

7/12/2005 10:16:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

They are going to spread Predators accross the country like so many pieces of pork.
Might outta better be localized down south?

7/12/2005 10:16:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Fox of Mexico fame you moron.

7/12/2005 10:16:00 PM  
Blogger Kyda Sylvester said...

This one is equally creepy.

A Muslim man goes to buy cigarettes and is set upon by a gang of white youths who shout "Taliban" as they beat him. He dies from his injuries. The local police, frantic in their efforts to forestall any suggestion of "backlash", at first try to pass the crime off as "racially aggravated", but unconnected with either "Islamophobia" (just because you're Islamophobic doesn't mean they're not out to get you) or the London bombings.

Political correctness is not ony willful ignorance, it's an avoidance technique. Dealing with unpleasant realities is difficult and distasteful. Much easier to reconceptualize that reality into something else entirely. Those refusing to buy into the new reality can safely be dismissed as insensitive, phobic, hateful. Problem solved.

When they finally bury Western civilization, they can put on the tombstone "Politically correct to the end".

7/12/2005 10:17:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

7/12/2005 10:17:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Election politics part of the answer, not THE answer.

7/12/2005 10:20:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Sorry, ledger, this is my last on this--drones, overhead, and quick-response teams, and something besides a jolly ride back to the border in an INS truck. shoot some people. That'll stop it. fences evaporate overnite, unless manned by guns that will shoot.

7/12/2005 10:20:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Nuke Mecca.

7/12/2005 10:21:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Gun Control!
That'll do it!

7/12/2005 10:22:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Maybe we could have security cams and fake guns right next to them.

7/12/2005 10:23:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

If I am elected, we will have guns that don't shoot!

7/12/2005 10:24:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

There are running gun battles on the hiway between Phoenix and Tucson. These guys will haul anything or anyone for cash.
You are going to put the safety of my daughter and her friends in the moral judgements of 'coyotes' concerning what contraband they will or will not haul.
But we should nuke Arab cities, chosen at random, with two weeks notice.
Think that thru buddy

7/12/2005 10:24:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

That's down the line Rat.
Any border problem is way down the line.
Trust Us.

7/12/2005 10:27:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

gun control
being able to hit the target
but you already know that

7/12/2005 10:27:00 PM  
Blogger Bentley said...

How are we to protect the from Opfor infiltation?

You cant protect the borders. It would not be practical and they could just as easily come in by boat or air. These guys think in quadruple redundancies.These guys think like NASA. They think in in terms of success probabilities and back ups. You can however stop them when they get inside. By some kind of National ID. The technology exists today and is much doable. If you are not a vetted US national you cannot drive a car, book a hotel, take flying lessons or buy amonium nitrate for example. Its like a virtual wall. The National ID is of course controversial. But you'd have a better chance of success.

10:28 PM

7/12/2005 10:28:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

All, or nothing at all.
...for some special issues.

7/12/2005 10:30:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Let's get rid of the Patriot Act.

7/12/2005 10:31:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Oh, I give up. frolic away. Now i'm trying to assassinate schoolchildren, nuke Arabia, and having my syntax corrected by Mr. Coconut.

7/12/2005 10:32:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

If they think like NASA we're safe.
Have you seen the Wing Repair Plan?
The Shuttle is, and always was, a very bad joke.

7/12/2005 10:32:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Somebuddy's gotta do it. :-)

7/12/2005 10:33:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Might as well be the Douglas Skyrocket!

7/12/2005 10:33:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

It is only 'down the line' if we know they REALLY do not have a nuke. That is the reason for the War, the terrible 'what ifs'.
So, there is reason to be concerned or there is not. If the Security Team of the US is not concerned about the border, it is not unreasonable to assume there is no REAL threat. No Real threat of WMD attack. That is the message sent by their actions.
Reality is focused by perceptions

7/12/2005 10:34:00 PM  
Blogger Charles said...

Genesis 2 (New International Version)

8 Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 9 And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

10 A river watering the garden flowed from Eden; from there it was separated into four headwaters. 11 The name of the first is the Pishon; it winds through the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold. 12 (The gold of that land is good; aromatic resin [f] and onyx are also there.) 13 The name of the second river is the Gihon; it winds through the entire land of Cush. [g] 14 The name of the third river is the Tigris; it runs along the east side of Asshur. And the fourth river is the Euphrates.

15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

18 The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."

19 Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds of the air and all the beasts of the field.
But for Adam [h] no suitable helper was found. 21 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs [i] and closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib [j] he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

23 The man said,
"This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called 'woman, [k] '
for she was taken out of man."

24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.

25 The man and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.

7/12/2005 10:35:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Yeah, but you brought up snipers.

7/12/2005 10:36:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"The Saudi Arabian Wahhabites are the luxury version of the Taliban," says Carmen bin Laden.

She rarely saw Osama. She noticed him because he turned away in horror when she opened the house door: "I was unveiled, and he was afraid of the sight." The family saw OBL as fanatically pious -- and he was also admired for the same reason. But Carmen thought he was odd. She says that Osama's young wife, Najwa, was not even permitted to give her baby a bottle when it was very hot, because the merciless father felt that the bottle's nipple was "haram" -- impure in a religious sense.

7/12/2005 10:39:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

The nuke threat is most likely--assuming they have some of those missing Russ suitcases and know how to shoot 'em off--in abeyance due to 138,000 soldiers one border over from iran. If & when something is done about the Iran bomb program, I'm sure an early signal will be some attempt at tightening the borders to the limit of our surge capacity--as the bluff will then have been called.

7/12/2005 10:40:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

The omnipotent Opfor
better than NASA
Triple redundent
Bull Shit

Border Bandits with sachel charges.
That has been the M.O. of the last two attacks.
Giap had thousands of them. Sacrificed by the hundreds
Fear not
Even their greatest moment aQ had a success rate of just 75%.

Better than NASA

7/12/2005 10:41:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Let's put more effort into the Syrian Border.
Oh, I forgot, that's only a partial solution.

7/12/2005 10:44:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Triple Redundant Bullshit.

7/12/2005 10:45:00 PM  
Blogger William Knight said...

I'm with Nahncee, the only way to deal with those british islamofacscists is to drop a couple of nukes on London, that'll teach 'em. If they still don't get the message after that, we'll just drop a couple more nukes on LA to take out those dang mexkin leaf-blowers. You damn Ted Kennedy Liberals can just sip your little lattes while our leader George Bush deals with the situation.

7/12/2005 10:49:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

NASA--when is that shuttle launch--tonite? Oh boy, please, one more time for the ole jalopy.

7/12/2005 10:50:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

There is an Iraqi Kurdish milita that numbers over 50,000 men. They could be tasked for that border mission. C4 commented the manpower needs to be in the 5,000 man range. Deploy 10% of the Kurdish force to the Syrian border. I understand that this may steeeech the milita to almost the breaking point, but those Kurds are tough. They can handle it

7/12/2005 10:51:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

By all means--get him out of office. The next guy'll find a solution.

7/12/2005 10:52:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Sure glad those Boston Screeners got straightened out by the Muslim/Airline Lobby.

7/12/2005 10:52:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

The White Knight he ain't.
(Inside Joke for Rutan Fans.)

7/12/2005 10:54:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

So, the guy that runs the 100ft long STEEL are that will be moved around the entire shuttle to look for cracks in the fragile CERAMIC tiles, sez:
"I guess if I mess up, I'll be looking for a new job."

7/12/2005 10:56:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Rudy or Hillary or ?
Just like Nixon, someone will offer US peace with honor.
They will define Victory and promise to deliver it.
Truth or Dare

7/12/2005 10:57:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

"...There are running gun battles on the hiway between Phoenix and Tucson."

So, who usually wins, Phoenix, or Tucson?

7/12/2005 11:01:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Department of Public Safety polices up the bodies. If the drivers are not hit, the dead or wounded passengers are tossed out the doors of the moving vehicles.
If the vechile stops then a standing firefight ensues until the mobile vechile flees or the stopped vechile gets on the road again. Quite the exciting road show. Does not happen but a couple of times per year, on I-10. Off the Interstate things get a little hairier, sometimes.

7/12/2005 11:07:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Well, I thought it was kinda a good comic break. At least I got a chuckle. Rough room, here.

7/12/2005 11:08:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

that's no lady
that's his wife

7/12/2005 11:14:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

yeah, I know. I worked up and down the river, way back in the early 70s. Doing night checks on drilling fluid in those gas fields around Laredo. It was scary at night, dismounting thru farmers gates getting into the rigs, with skulkers in the shadows. I had a hand cannon in the vehicle, and a little Browning .25 which i still have, kept in a bandana with the tail hanging out of my back pocket. Quick-draw, you just snatch the hanging out bandana with your left hand and slap it into your right hand and shoot thru the bandana. You don't appear armed. felt safer that way out fiddling with gate locks. Wild west, still then--but then it got wilder.

7/12/2005 11:17:00 PM  
Blogger Wild Bill said...

You guys are bouncing around ideas that are about 18 months behind the curve.. The nukes have already been brought in by MS13.. The job now is to find them before they "hatch' .. The initial death count is said to be around 4 mil instant.. GW has already put troop draw-down in action, and is retrofitting troops into the domestic security mode.. The number one target today seems to be the petro/chem area of S.E. Texas and S.W. Louis.. That takes care of our fuel supply, and of course they will target Wall St. and D.C. and southern Cali will be on the list.. Too late to close the barn door, the mule is long gone!! The ACLU and the pro immigrant league have shut down deportations, and the Greens have stalled the fence and any barriers.. So, if somebody dont get to work on gettin the Patriot Act geared-up and anything else to find the nukes, we are gonna have a whole new name to live down, besides Yank.. How are you gonna like bein called "FRENCH FRY" ??

7/12/2005 11:17:00 PM  

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