Who ya gonna call?
Newsweek argues that a "growing chorus" of Israelis want to negotiate with Hamas because military measures have failed. But there's one small problem: "when you talk to Hamas you don't have one address, you have to deal with several figures in order to achieve approval for anything." This multiplicity of personalities is why Hamas can claim responsibility for an attack on a seminary in Jerusalem -- and simultaneously not claim it. Ynet reports:
Hamas radio broadcasted Friday a statement in which the organization claimed responsibility for the attack, saying it was a "jolting response to the violence in Gaza in which more than 120 Palestinians were killed," and calling on all Hamas supporters to "celebrate this victory against the brutal enemy."
Shortly after that, the radio station reported Hamas had gone back on the claim – "for now".
There are reports that the gunman from East Jerusalem acted on orders, not of Hamas, but Hizbullah. Palestinian security forces trying to track the killer's past through the convoluted labyrinth of the Jihad are coming up with more than one suspect. But even if they finger Hamas nothing will be proved. Ynet continues:
Should Hamas be implicated in ordering or carrying out the attack in Jerusalem, the Palestinian security establishment estimates the group may choose not to make its involvement public.
After all, any organization which can admit responsibility for attacking a seminary on the radio and then withdraw their confession "for now" is surely beyond all blame. Does that leave Israel only with the solution of joining the "chorus of voices" demanding to talk? And talk to ... whom?
If there's something strange
in your neighborhood
Who ya gonna call?
If there's something weird
and it don't look good
Who ya gonna call?
If you're seeing things
running through your head
Who can ya call?
An invisible man
sleeping in your bed
Who ya gonna call?
Beats me.
This is asymmetrical warfare at its finest. The terrorist side attacks behind the protection of the Geneva conventions, diplomatic usage and all manner of international courts and human rights organizations. What's wrong with this picture?
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posted by wretchardthecat at 3/07/2008 02:01:00 PM
18 Comments:
What is wrong is that there will be an even LARGER chorus of voices to do what is required to "solve" that problem.
Even if it's a Silverado Moment. Where Kevin Kline is told by Linda Hunt that the Brian Dennehy character cannot hurt her if he's dead. And soon, he is!
Israel has been very restrained. It is a mistake of the first order to imagine that restraint will last forever.
It is likely to slip all at once. Like a a massive earthquake. And level Gaza, kick out all the inhabitants (or kill them) and claim the area as a buffer zone.
In a way this is essential for peace. Unless Palestinians are convinced that continued war can be risky: they can LOSE people and territory and never get it back, they will continue the asymmetric warfare.
"when you talk to Hamas you don't have one address, you have to deal with several figures in order to achieve approval for anything."
Reminds me of the tribes living on the Great Plains.
Perfect democracy - no man had to listen to the chief; if you disagreed with his promise not to attack a settlement, just gather some like-minded fellows and have at it.
This problem also applied - in lessor degree - the the white settlers.
And we all know how that turned out. Of course the Cheyenne only had rifles and horses, not rockets and bombs.
I'm reminded of a part of your famous Three Conjectures article, where you say:
At this point, a United States choked with corpses could still not negotiate an end to hostilities or deter further attacks. There would be no one to call on the Red Telephone, even to surrender to. In fact, there exists no competent Islamic authority, no supreme imam who could stop a jihad on behalf of the whole Muslim world. Even if the terror chiefs could somehow be contacted in this apocalyptic scenario and persuaded to bury the hatchet, the lack of command and control imposed by the cell structure would prevent them from reining in their minions. Due to the fixity of intent, attacks would continue for as long as capability remained. Under these circumstances, any American government would eventually be compelled by public desperation to finish the exchange by entering -1 x 10^9 in the final right hand column: total retaliatory extermination.
There is nobody on the Palestinian side who can COMMIT their side to a binding solution. Therefore there is no point in negotiating with them
want to get a message to the palestinians??
cut off all water, food, medicine with gaza...
start bombing in the northern and drive them into sinai...
after all they did it on their own for coke a cola and viagra...
time to kick some ass....
no more talk talk...
time for real nasty kill kill...
and mock the fuckers all along the way...
oh, CLOSE the temple mount...
level the orient house...
expel all arabs from east jerusalem
that's for starters...
But you hit the nail on the head. The arabs i general are not interested in a palestinian state. A palestinian state would be held responsible for its actions by the UN. Which would be catastrophic for the arab world. As it stands, there is no "government" to negotiate with. Therefore, the only sanctions that the UN can dish out are anti-israeli.
The PA is not a government. It is a collection of terrorist organisations at war both with Isral and themselves. These organisations are funded and run by forces outside of the palestinian territory. Their ambition is the eventual destruction of Israel.
There will never be "peace".
Silverado was a great flick - underappreciated IMHO - probably seen it close to ten times.
Nice comparison, whiskey.
How exactly does one negotiate with those that cheer when your children die?
This multiplicity of personalities is why Hamas can claim responsibility for an attack on a seminary in Jerusalem -- and simultaneously not claim it.
This is one of those lines in the sand that Islam is so fond of crossing. There needs to be an open season declared on ALL terrorist entities who utilize this sort of plausible deniability. Make using such subterfuge a reason, in and of itself, to exterminate all who participate in this sort of ruse.
Great comments, so far:
It is a mistake of the first order to imagine that restraint will last forever.
It is likely to slip all at once. Like a a massive earthquake.
Elsewhere in today's comments, I likened the West's final cascade into Total War to that of a myoclonic spasm (i.e., that massive twitch of all the major muscles before descending into sleep). Some nightmare's precursor will visit us as we continue to drift off into restful ignorance and suddenly there will be a convulsive response that will see much of the entire Islamic world vaporized. Only then will there be any rest.
There would be no one to call on the Red Telephone, even to surrender to. In fact, there exists no competent Islamic authority, no supreme imam who could stop a jihad on behalf of the whole Muslim world. Even if the terror chiefs could somehow be contacted in this apocalyptic scenario and persuaded to bury the hatchet, the lack of command and control imposed by the cell structure would prevent them from reining in their minions.
You beat me to it, PapaBear. This same exact passage from The Three Conjectures ran through my mind when I read the opening quote of this comment. Islam's fondness for asymmetrical warfare needs to become its death knell.
There is nobody on the Palestinian side who can COMMIT their side to a binding solution. Therefore there is no point in negotiating with them
At day's end, this is what really matters. Regardless of whether there actually was one central "authority" with which we could negotiate, taqiyya would still render all such efforts meaningless. It is not Islam's plausible deniability but their incessant perfidy which makes a sham of all diplomatic efforts.
Anyone not yet fully convinced regarding the destructive and neutralizing effect of taqiyya needs to watch "Relentless". This short video is an exacting catalog of Palestinian treachery as they set about violating almost every single promise, truce, accord, pact and agreement that was ever made with the Israelis.
Does anyone honestly think that the West will not have the identical same experience as it attempts to deal with Islam?
Exile: The arabs in general are not interested in a palestinian state. A palestinian state would be held responsible for its actions by the UN. Which would be catastrophic for the arab world. As it stands, there is no "government" to negotiate with.
Exactly! The VERY LAST THING that Islam or the Palestinians want is any sort of peaceful resolution with Israel. It would make all further Arab aggression just that, actual hostility and warfare instead of their precious "resistance" and "freedom fighting". An end to the crisis would mean that all those Muslim majority governments who have made any reformation of their tyrannous regimes contingent upon a solution being reached obliged to suddenly have to DO SOMETHING.
Perish the effing thought.
The last thing Islam wants—anywhere on this entire earth—is peace. Remember:
ISLAM WILL NOT HAVE IT ANY OTHER WAY
If the Chinese government can subsidize the activities of Chinese hackers who claim to have breached Pentagon computers, why should western governments refuse to subsidize equivalent cyberattacks?
Joe Buz: How exactly does one negotiate with those that cheer when your children die?
I do believe that Korben Dallas has the answer:
KORBEN: Mind if I go? I'm an excellent negotiator.
COP 1: Uh... Sure, go ahead.
Korben gets ready.
COP 1: We're sending someone in who's authorized to negotiate.
[INTERIOR OF POLICE STATION]
Korben walks quickly into the room, heads straight for Akanit, raises his gun and puts a bullet through his head.
KORBEN: Anyone else want to negotiate?
COP 2: (to another Cop) Where'd he learn to negotiate like that?
It is my intention to curb the size and influence of the federal establishment and to demand recognition of the distinction between the powers granted to the federal government and those reserved to the states or to the people. All of us need to be reminded that the federal government did not create the states; the states created the federal government.
Now, so there will be no misunderstanding, it's not my intention to do away with government. It is rather to make it work--work with us, not over us; to stand by our side, not ride on our back. Government can and must provide opportunity, not smother it; foster productivity, not stifle it.
-- Ronald Reagan’s First Inaugural Address
How would these principles be applied to fighting a war? In particular, how would one fight al-Qaeda and its fellow travelers according to these principles?
The structure of the United States government before the Civil War was designed for grassroots warfare, for it empowered militias to enforce laws. The National Guard as it presently exists has little resemblance to its original design; imagine instead if each state had its own Carabinieri paramilitary police. Such a state militia would routinely keep watch for any suspected terrorists.
The historic increase in federal power has had the side effect of making Americans fight more like a hierarchical European military than like the kind of militia that won the Battle of Saratoga. Although discouraging state-based militias has had its effect of promoting uniformity and a common purpose within the ranks of the military, it has also depressed the number of volunteers who would prefer to fight at the side of their friends from home.
In theory, a federal system of government allows a distributed form of war fighting while also giving foreign powers one address to end a war. Yet, much of the reason for the rise in the power of the federal government has at least as much to do with parochial sloth as any attempt in Washington to promote a federal leviathan. There are few if any states that would be willing to raise taxes at the state level to pay for an expanded state militia; federal largesse is desired instead. How many people would want a hike in their own state income taxes knowing the proceeds would go into foreign language education, immigration enforcement, neighborhood watches, foreign espionage, and bounties for those who hack into the computers of hostile governments?
There are many people who love Reaganesque rhetoric, yet if his rhetoric means anything, don’t we need to reconsider how we fight the pirates of modern day?
One can only wonder, why doesn't Israel see this.
Occupation: why doesn't your Olmert know this? Why doesn't he respond harshly? What provocation is he waiting for?
I have come to believe that the answer is Dr Rice. Israel has been bullied and beaten by her and feels that it cannot bite the hand that feeds it. If you read the wikipedia article on Dr Rice, in the sections on the Israel-Pal conflict, you will see that Dr Rice has inflicted her opinions on both Israel and Abbas as long as she has been in power. Both Abbas and Israel have done what she asked for, I assume every time. And in all the significant events she has been horribly horribly wrong. She has, her own little self, caused a lot of the problems that we have seen in the past few years. Regardless of whether she has screwed things up she has not been right on anything.
Pressed Israel to withdraw from Gaza in 2005.
Pressed for elections that brought Hamas to power.
Negotiated an agreement where Israel gave control of the Rafah crossing to Egypt, PA, and some EU clowns.
Pressed for negotiations between Israel and PA weakling Abbas when Abbas can't make decisions in his one best interests let alone in Israels best interest.
She was in Israel this week pressing Israel to return to negotiations and to take care not to harm civilians in Gaza reprisals.
Oh brother. She has been a disaster.
It's hard to understand why Israel hasn't taken off the gloves, told the world and the stated dept to f itself and taken care of business.
Hamas has no friends. Israel can kick their butts into the sea and no one will really care except their terrorist friends. What are they waiting for?
They can negotiate peace with Abbas's successor.
Zenster,
What exactly is it about hudna that these people do not understand? It really is baffling that people can live in the neighborhood of Islam and not seriously study its scriptures and its body of law.
All this talk about negotiations with people who only see negotiations as a sign of weakness drives me to the point of exasperation. And so I quote, from Cicero, a line from one of his speeches: "Quo usque tandem abutere, Catalina, patientia nostra?"
utopia parkway said...
One can only wonder, why doesn't Israel see this.
it's bush & rice....
bush's changed america policy and stated that an independent state of "Palestine" needed to be created...
Occupation: why doesn't your Olmert know this? Why doesn't he respond harshly? What provocation is he waiting for?
Israel must wait for a bloody nose to really fight back, after all this recent attack could not even muster a unsc statement...
UP: I have come to believe that the answer is Dr Rice.
yep...
up: Pressed Israel to withdraw from Gaza in 2005.
To be fair, that was sharon's idea and actually i supported gaza's withdraw.
up: Pressed for elections that brought Hamas to power.
Hamas is fine.. we just needed to CUT off the strip and GIVE hamas the due they deserve... cluster bombings...
up: Negotiated an agreement where Israel gave control of the Rafah crossing to Egypt, PA, and some EU clowns.
again, get israel out of rafah... the smuggling is and was egypt's issue... now that the border is NOT israeli's issue, let the moslem brotherhood & her daughter, hamas fuck with the egyptians..
up: Pressed for negotiations between Israel and PA weakling Abbas when Abbas can't make decisions in his one best interests let alone in Israels best interest.
The usa, under bush (and rice) have given the clown abbas 550 MILLION last year, millions of rounds of ammo and 10's of thousands of rifles. It's time to declare war and stop giving support to the nazis! did i say nazis? oh i mean the palestnians
up: She was in Israel this week pressing Israel to return to negotiations and to take care not to harm civilians in Gaza reprisals.
yep... the innocent gazans... the mf'ers that VOTED for their government should be shielded fron the reprisals that they infact have caused...
up: Oh brother. She has been a disaster.
yep..
up: It's hard to understand why Israel hasn't taken off the gloves, told the world and the stated dept to f itself and taken care of business.
the State dept of the USA is a Arab Lover of the 1st degree...
OIL is the issue...
now that we are getting to 4 bucks a gallon, we will soon have the cost ability to live in a world without middle east oil... I see a day SOON when, like it or not, the middle east's oil will not be able to get to market...
up: Hamas has no friends.
wrong... hamas is supported by 500,000,000 moslems. (not the entire islamic world, but about 1/3)
up: Israel can kick their butts into the sea and no one will really care except their terrorist friends. What are they waiting for?
a major terrorist attack... i hate to say this, but 8 jewish rabbi's intraining, dont cut it... not when 100 a week are being murdered in iraq by the same measure..
nope, patience, we need more jew blood spllled
the real war aint gaza... it's gaza, lebanon, syria & iran.. and it's coming...
up: They can negotiate peace with Abbas's successor.
as Bibi once said, the middle east is like chess board...
very slow and thought out moves...
then in an instant the board is in the air and the pieces come down who knows where...
right now? we are studying a set board...
however the board is about to go into the air, i am sure... being prepared, getting the entire population of israel to ready their safe rooms is VERY important, the army has been training and restocking, some black ops have happened...
patience... israel is NOT sitting on her hands, if you read the news reports israel is going in DAILY and killing fighters.
the board is alive...
the bad guys are scared....
sure I would love a intense cluster bombing of gaza city, watching it burn to the ground as 1.5 million shitheads flee into sinai... (excuse me while clean up myself after self pleasure) but I think the method the israelis are playing is allowing the arabs to OVERplay it's hand...
already they have started shooting rockets at ashkelon!
the board is about to pop, but dont take your eyes off lebanon, syria and iran
Fred: What exactly is it about hudna that these people do not understand?
I sincerely do not know. If you haven't already, please be sure to watch the "Relentless" video. Few more vivid illustrations exist of hudna and interminable Muslim perfidy.
It is as if modern diplomacy is, first and foremost, based upon the total dismissal of all previous history. Little else can explain how readily even the most glaring facts are ignored in the febrile hope that repeating the same shopworn experiment yet one more time will somehow miraculously yield different results. Even with his own dismal estimation of human intelligence, Einstein surely would be dumbfounded at Israel's continued attempts to turn sow into silk.
Quo usque tandem?
For how much longer? -- from Cicero's speech to the Roman senate regarding the conspiracy of Catiline:
Quo usque tandem abutere, Catilina, patientia nostra? i.e., "For how much longer, Catilina, will you abuse our patience?".
1. "There is nobody on the Palestinian side who can COMMIT their side to a binding solution. Therefore there is no point in negotiating with them"
The Palestinians, yes even the good ones (pun), would kill anyone who they thgought was negotiating in good faith.
2. Rice learnt her craft at the feet of James Baker of the Baker/Hamilton Iraq Study Group Report. The report threw off all previous Bush doctrine in favor of the more normal, the Arabs not on our side can do no wrong. This is along the lines of the normal State Department policy.
3. As the lead in blog entry shows, the Israelis are their own worst enemy. In the face of ever escallating violence they want to negotiate with those who do not want to negotiate. Or, I should say, those ratbags who only negotiate for a time out after a few of the laders get killed.
On the night of the Jerusalem seminary massacre the France 24 news channel repeatedly called it a "daring attack". One could interpret it to be said almost in admiration. A gunmen armed with automatic rifle hunting down unarmed 15 and 16 year olds was "daring" action to them.
As for Israeli government: I begin to think they are being blackmailed by the US. Some are bought like former prez Weitzman (he received up to 9 million dollars in bribes all throughout the 1980s after turning from a hawk into a complete dove and pressuring Begin to accept the Sinai withdrawal), some are controlled with threats of prosecution for crimes either real or cooked up. The Left's stranglehold on national media is unbelievable. There's no FOX equivalent, and the only voices heard on TV and radio are left of center, if not the ultra-left "Peace Now", which judging from how the media handles them, are the mainstream.
Israel is under the intense brainwashing of "peace" propaganda for at least 25-30 years now, starting about at the time of the first Lebanon war and even before that. One could interpret it as a CIA black propaganda campaign aimed at achieving the overall policy goal for the US - forcing the Israeli withdrawal to the pre-1967 borders. This hostile policy, detrimental to basic interests of Israel’s very survival, was in effect since, well, 1967. Not a policy one pursues towards one’s ally.
The final nail into the coffin of a freedom of public discourse was put with the murder of Rabin in 1995 by a "lone gunman" who has miraculously survived the attack. Since then it has been virtually impossible to say anything meaningful in the MSM for any politician. Plus they are all held hostage by the politically corrupt police/media syndicate.
The real question is, who's running the show. Unfortunately, it isn't the Israeli people anymore. Evidence: landslide victory for the promised tough policies of Sharon which was turned into actions of defeatism bordering on treachery. It isn't the Israeli politicians either. All they can do is to make empty threats of all-out assault on Gaza only to retreat the very next day, after White House phone call apparently. Barak even saying to the public, “I can’t discuss with you the reasons for stopping the operation”. Barak even, according to reports, trying in a very roundabout way to dismember his own government through some backwater issue of withholding payments to some party to force them to step out of the coalition. He’s too afraid apparently to force Olmert’s resignation by directly pulling out from his coalition, probably out of fear of his own handlers.
Sharon was blackmailed into his actions by some covert US pressure most probably, and I wouldn't believe for a minute that he's decided to cut and run from Gaza all by himself. It has all being a total puppet theater for the make benefit of unsuspecting general public. The US won’t even sell their newest F-22s to Israel, while Turkey apparently is fine and well.
Leaving all the loud words and small change of a 3 billion a year of leash money aside, Israel is a target country for hostile US policies, and always was, the support of the American people notwithstanding. Apparently the will of the people doesn’t count for much in the US either.
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