Saturday, November 11, 2006

Slouching towards catastrophe

The UK Times describes the new Hezbollah buildup of rockets. Wonder what they're going to be used for?

Four months after Israel launched its onslaught against Hezbollah, the Lebanese guerrillas are back in south Lebanon stronger than ever and armed with more rockets than they had before the conflict, according to Israeli intelligence. ... “Since the ceasefire, additional rockets, weapons and military equipment have reached Hezbollah,” said an Israeli intelligence officer. “We assume they now have about 20,000 rockets of all ranges — a bit more than they had before July 12.” Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, the leader of Hezbollah, has confirmed the Israeli estimate. In a recent interview with al-Manar, the Hezbollah television station, he claimed his organisation had restocked its arsenal and now held at least 30,000 rockets, sufficient for five months of war.


Commentary

The principal fascination of watching train wrecks and other predictable disasters is the foreknowledge of the impact before the actual collision actually happens. In the moments leading up to the crash the event almost seems preventable. Occasionally the onlookers will even shout, though they know the shouts are futile.

The amazing thing is how many of the actors who will soon be capering all over the wreckage of the battlefield, looking very solemn and concerned and pointing their fingers with trembling self-righteousness, are at this very moment seemingly indifferent to the gathering storm. The Times article continues.

Israeli military intelligence has warned the government that renewed fighting with Hezbollah, which it regards as a terrorist organisation, should be expected as early as next spring.

302 Comments:

Blogger Cedarford said...

Hopefully it can be left as just Israel's problem.

The US should try as hard as possible to avoid getting involved directly helping Israel in any way - and limit ourselves to ensuring the multinational peacekeepers have our full support.

11/12/2006 01:16:00 AM  
Blogger Barry Meislin said...

Cedarford is, of course, correct.
Hizbullah is Israel's problem.

(Kind of like how Nazi Germany was the Jews' problem.)

And one should remain focused on the real problem; should not be tempted to think that Hizbullah might be Lebanon's problem, or perhaps Syria's problem, or maybe even Iran's problem, or perhaps, even a Palestinian problem.

No matter how great the temptation.

11/12/2006 02:20:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

c4: ...limit ourselves to ensuring the multinational peacekeepers have our full support.

"For only a dollar a day, you can put a smile on the face of a UN peacekeeper. Your dollar buys a hot meal [show running chicken], or a talking book ["IX. 73: Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal harshly with them."] maybe even [pause for emphasis] the peacekeeper himself. Let's preserve appearances, together. [hug winsome tyke in blue helmet, gaze at camera]"

11/12/2006 03:30:00 AM  
Blogger summignumi said...

I wonder if Israel has learned that it will need to do it right and much faster because its protector has changed its stance towards them. With a democrat Congress the prez can only hold out so long…
I might say also a big thanks to their kin for the change.
Like I post pre-election it is going to be a fun roller coaster ride and the Antique media is going to have stories worth reading in them again, can the bloggs supress this and keep the dinosaur in its grave?

11/12/2006 04:10:00 AM  
Blogger betsybounds said...

Shoot, the Democrat congress may only be trouble on the margins by now. The problem for--and maybe with--Bush is that his presidency is now in receivership, with the H.W. brigade moving in to take over from W. Gates, Baker, Eagleberger and Scowcroft (who is off stage left, just out of sight) are on the march. I can just imagine H.W. calling Baker and saying, "You've got to help save my boy." When you're faced with a nasty mess like the one in Florida 2000, James Baker is just the man you want fighting for you. But the man should never be allowed anywhere near policy-making. As Mark Steyn says this morning, Bush's firing of Rumsfeld Wednesday morning was "small and graceless"; irrespective of the substance of the move, because of the the timing, it was worse than a mistake--it was a blunder.The whole thing makes me think of Robert the Bruce in "Braveheart." Bruce's instincts were correct, but he was held in thrall by that awful figure of his father, covered in rotting cloth, who advised him to be cautious, to temporize and throw in his lot with Long-Shanks at the last, with the Devil taking the hind-most. The really stinking thing is that the Iraqis are now part of the hind-most. The Israelis probably are as well--Baker was never a friend to Israel. If I were in charge of Japan, or South Korea, or any of the numerous other countries who have been encouraged to out-source their defense to the American "umbrella," I'd rethink my position pretty damned fast right now. The U.S. cannot be counted upon.

11/12/2006 05:39:00 AM  
Blogger 2164th said...

The US has an interest in that Israel do it right. The US has an interest in Israeli security in the Middle East and has an interest in maintaining stability.

It is patent nonsense to state that it is ..."just Israel's problem.". One can wish that it is "just Israel's problem" but then one can wish for many things. Wishing for good health is always a good idea, but maintaining health is a better practice.

If it became obvious that Israel would fall to Islamic aggression, one could hope that the Islamists stop there. One would also have to be delusional to expect it.

Israel is not always right, and US and Israeli interests are not a unity, but the notion of an Islamic victory over Israel is unthinkable and unacceptable. On that point there is congruency in US and Israeli self interest.

11/12/2006 05:44:00 AM  
Blogger betsybounds said...

I should add that the long-suffering, indominatable, and unquestionably brave Kurds are also likely to be thrown to these wolves. Why anyone in their position should depend on us is beyond me to tell.

11/12/2006 05:46:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Israel should just take out the rocket factories.
They're in Syria & Iran?
No problem!

11/12/2006 05:48:00 AM  
Blogger enscout said...

C4 said:
"Hopefully it can be left as just Israel's problem."
Yes, you, all of socialist Europe and the lefties here keep hoping that, while you know in you hearts that, for now Isreal is in the van. And if they don't hold, Hizbollah rockets will show up on Europe's doorstep. It would only be a matter of time.
Of course, for C4 & all other secular humanists who think only of themselves, it's quite possible to buy enough time to leave the heavy lifting to the next generation.

11/12/2006 06:13:00 AM  
Blogger Pierre Legrand said...

Something smells bad around here...wonder what it is.

Cedarford said...
Hopefully it can be left as just Israel's problem


Oops there it is....

Yea after all it wasn't Hezb'Allah that murdered 241 Marines. It isn't Hezb'Allah that is training Shiite thugs in Iraq to murder US Armed forces using Iran's technology. And after all if we acknowledge that Hezb'Allah has a hard on for killing US Soldiers and Citizens we might have to acknowledge that our problem is a bit broader in scope than we have been led to believe. We might have to start looking beyond the Wahhabists...uh oh.

The blatant stinking fact is thousands more perhaps hundreds of thousands more Americans will have to die before we call this war what it is and start distributing fear instead of food. There will be a time for distributing food...but fear must be distributed widely first. Our enemies laugh at us.

For those of you who believe Iran and Hezb'Alla are not the enemy here is a helpful little guide.
Stateless Terror …or how the Government avoids holding Iran and Iraq responsible for Terror

11/12/2006 06:32:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

betsybounds, I feel your pain, I really, really do.

I think maybe we had it right in 1860, USA needs to be two countries-- the people that understand what she is talking about should not, in the modern world of consequences, have to share foreign policy with those who do not understand what she is talking about.

Oh, I know, persuasion, advise and consent, essence of democracy, blah blah blah. Too many of us won't listen--the last few years have proved that.

What is it about nazism that half of us refuse to admit?

11/12/2006 06:43:00 AM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

Of course, for C4 & all other secular humanists who think only of themselves, it's quite possible to buy enough time to leave the heavy lifting to the next generation.

It is also a mark of secular humanism to despair about the fate of God's chosen people. This tribe has endured for four thousand years at least, and their destiny is in His capable hands.

11/12/2006 06:58:00 AM  
Blogger Dave H said...

I wonder if the UNFIL will try to defend the Hezbollah if the IDF lands on them full force? Not that that will happen.

Better for Israel if they do it now, best thing would be to act and get it over before the Dem take over in January. I bet the Hez delays any provocations till 2007.

Israel should mobilize today, but I doubt that Olmert has the stones.

11/12/2006 07:17:00 AM  
Blogger betsybounds said...

Well, I'm no secular humanist and I certainly don't despair about the ultimate fate of God's Chosen People.

But I also recall the words of Corrie ten Boom's father regarding the Nazis' evil designs upon the Jews. He said he pitied the Nazis, because they had attacked the Apple of God's Eye. My point, of course, is not that the fate of the Jews is in our hands, or any other hands save God's. My point is that, to the extent we betray them or are complicit in their agony, we will have kindled the Wrath against ourselves.

11/12/2006 07:20:00 AM  
Blogger 3Case said...

"Hopefully it can be left as just Israel's problem."

Generally, that's the case until the Israelis begin beating the s--t out of the HB, then everybody (the U.N. multi "peacekeepers"; tex forgot they get a license to rape and pederasty, too) seems to get involved to stop the Israelis from solving "their" problem. The HB, as predicted, have now resupplied and further hardened South Lebannon with no comment from the U.N. or the MSM or the Liberal Twit Establishment.

11/12/2006 07:28:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Well, 3case, as pro-administration as I am, it was not only the UN that pressured Israel to stop short.

11/12/2006 07:33:00 AM  
Blogger Gudovac April 1941 said...

Don't leap to the immediate conclusion that the IDF can smash the HB (if only the politicians would stay out of it).

The IDF will do a fine job of - lessons learned - in anticipation of the next round.

However, so will the HB.

And in the next round, the HB will have a lot more active support from their polyglot allies. One needs to reflect that prior to last summer, HB was considered by Arabs fairly talented, but not capable of beating the IDF head-to-head. This time, Arabs believe HB can beat the IDF. Therefore, the Arab world will feel more secure ( and obliged ) to support HB activites.

One can be assured that the IDF is itching to prove that last summer was a abnormal outcome.

11/12/2006 07:46:00 AM  
Blogger 3Case said...

Agreed, BL. IMO, that was just another Administration error that lead to last Tuesday.

My point continues to that the "World community" sees HB as "an Israeli problem" until the HB starts getting it's butt kicked, then all's atwitter until Israel is made to stop.

HB, like most of the jihadis, is the fat kid bully on the playground who calls for the adults just as soon as the buttkicking he so rightly deserves commences. It appears that it is about to happen again.

I say "most" because aQ is different. It is more analogous to the Bolsheviks...evil and bent on tyranny, but then, they are the rich boys on the jihadi side.

"...Rich man wanna be King...."

11/12/2006 07:48:00 AM  
Blogger 3Case said...

ga1941,

I understand that everybody goes back to sharpening their knives when the battle's interrupted.

My point remains that the moment the IDF gets on top of the HB, the "World community" will call for a halt. C4 is calling for it already.

Given that Israel knows that it will be forced to stop, it must focus it's efforts on making it's permitted response all the more violent. How else can it hope to stave off the HB coming back next time with 45,000 rockets?

Perhaps they could rocket the cars of the HB leadership as they head to the safety of Damascus the week before the rocket assault is to kick off.

11/12/2006 08:03:00 AM  
Blogger Marcus Aurelius said...

So C4,

Are you saying we should side with the Hezbolalas? That seems to be where the hearts of the "peacekeepers" are.

11/12/2006 08:10:00 AM  
Blogger Habu1 said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

11/12/2006 08:23:00 AM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

gudovac wrote:

One can be assured that the IDF is itching to prove that last summer was a abnormal outcome.

So the next battle will be like comparing Second Fallujia to First Fallujia. One hopes.

11/12/2006 08:24:00 AM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

Do we think Israel would be nuts enough to go back into Lebanon with Olmert still in power and calling the shots? They could hook Sharon up to a heart monitor and interpret the blips and bleeps as "yes" and "no" and do better than that, both strategically and emotionally.

BTW, C4, has anyone told you lately you're a gutless, heartless wonder?

11/12/2006 08:25:00 AM  
Blogger redaktør said...

Not one Lebanese prostitute is willing to put its neck on the line and ask UNIFIL to disarm Hezzbbollah. Yes, I find it difficult to respect Lebanese politicians and their constituent.

But an Israeli response that pretends that Iran is not in large part the cause and the source of the problem in the Levant will not have long term success. So the solution is to eliminate the peacock's iridescent feathers. Tar the feathers away. It will be expensive in the short run, but it's time the global biofuels economy came onto its own .

11/12/2006 08:25:00 AM  
Blogger Habu1 said...

Slouching? Hell we're at least at a canter headed for a gallop.

But first we need those 2k dissertations on just what catastrophy is.

11/12/2006 08:29:00 AM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

If Dubya *is* planning on nuking Iran, will he need an excuse or will he just do it? Seems to me that a re-engagement of Israel and Hizbollah with corresponding Iranian dead bodies being found in another country and rockets with Iranian markings landing on Israeli civilians might do peachy-keen as an excuse.

Don't you *know* the White House has a long and extensive list of Iranian rockets and armaments found in Iraq, too, as well as other places where things have gone "boom" -- like maybe Saudi Arabia and Jordan and Egypt.

11/12/2006 08:29:00 AM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

Habu - our host was being poetic using the word "slouching":

"Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in the sands of the desert.

A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?"

11/12/2006 08:32:00 AM  
Blogger Habu1 said...

NahnCee,

I was hoping c4 would come up with the obfucating 2-5k dissertation on "catastophy"
Now you've probably hurt his feelings. Or you could have ignited that killer keyboard into our instrument of boredom. Time will tell.

11/12/2006 08:33:00 AM  
Blogger Habu1 said...

NahnCee,

Oh, I thought he was referrin g to Robert Borks work, "Slouching toward Gomorrah"

11/12/2006 08:38:00 AM  
Blogger Skookumchuk said...

Buddy:

In the end, it may come down to 1860. Somebody said the North saved the South in the 19th Century and the South will save the North in the 21st. Or maybe just save itself.

11/12/2006 08:40:00 AM  
Blogger Dan tdaxp said...

When Islamic radicalism is the problem, Islam is the answer.

11/12/2006 08:54:00 AM  
Blogger Aristides said...

Now is the time to build up one's multimedia arsenal.

Start flooding the airwaves. Capture the narrative. Own the context.

I know the MSM is uninterested. Make them interested. Find a human angle. Start storing images, clips, and entire segments. Declassify the visceral.

If Israel neglects the Battle for Perception before the war, she has no hope of winning it once the shooting starts. That is the new rule, and we better all get used to it.

11/12/2006 08:55:00 AM  
Blogger Aristides said...

Even from a strictly realist perspective, leaving aside any emotional, ideological or religious affinity, Middle Eastern reality demands a US thumb on the scale in favor of Israel.

So long as she is strong, she will act as a limit--an obstacle and a trip-wire--for any regional shifts that could, without this counterweight, grow into a clear and present dangers to the US and the mercantilist world we are trying to build. See Pan-Arabism. See Osiraq. See Hezbollah. See Iran.

Sometimes in geo-politics you have to hold your nose and do what's smart (this is meant for C-4, who obviously has a prejudice--in the normative sense of the word--against Israel).

Fact: Israel does not threaten us.

Fact: Her enemies do threaten us.

Being strictly rational, that is not a situation that calls for neutrality.

11/12/2006 09:11:00 AM  
Blogger dla said...

cedarford wrote: and limit ourselves to ensuring the multinational peacekeepers have our full support

Well that's nice. Lets just make sure that "multinational" doesn't include US troops as it did in 1982.

Israel and Hezbolla have entered into a cold war period while both sides calculate the cost of conflict.

There's no MAD capability yet, so conflict is likely.

Israel went against US intelligence in the 1st round, wasting armor, and suffering losses due to bad tactics. I don't think they'll make that mistake again. Israel needs precision targeting and high-altitude bombing capability - which the US can give them.

Hezbolla has 3 goals, one of which is to turn Lebanon into an Islamic state. I think this sounds enough like Al-Qaeda to fall within the umbrella of "War on terror". So I think the American public will support the arming of Israel.

When Israel strikes again, it will necessarily require the destruction of airports, embargoing the coastline, and closure of the Syrian border. Just like 1982. However I believe Hezbolla is much too big to be evacuated by the French to Tunisia, as was the PLO. So the body count will be high.

Russia was the supplier to the proxy states during the cold war period. Iran is the new supplier and Russia is the manufacturer.

11/12/2006 09:19:00 AM  
Blogger sirius_sir said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

11/12/2006 09:19:00 AM  
Blogger sirius_sir said...

If Mr. James Baker is serious about setting a realist agenda for our policy in the Middle East he should volunteer for a mission to Damascus in order to convey the message that we expect Assad to deliver the heads of Hezbollah leaders Nasrallah and Mugniyah (wanted for bombing both our embassy and the Marine barracks in Lebanon) and al Qaeda Iraq leader Abu al-Masri. Tell him he has two weeks to comply.

Read the rest here.

11/12/2006 09:26:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Wow! aristide has abandoned his call for translating Moby Dick. Now he sees the need for rapid action, on the transnational propaganda battle. Now he says:
"... Start flooding the airwaves. Capture the narrative. Own the context. ..."

Finally, the chickenhawks are starting to see some sense. He must have signed a multi-media company to front for, in his never ending quest for Federal funding.

11/12/2006 09:27:00 AM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

Tell him he has two weeks to comply

Otherwise Dubya shall become very, very cross, and, uh, possibly have Dr. Rice bring it up in a cocktail party or something. He would definitely be off his to-pray-for list.

11/12/2006 09:34:00 AM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

dla wrote:

There's no MAD capability yet, so conflict is likely.

In Israel's neighborhood MAD stands for Muslims Assured of Destruction.

11/12/2006 09:35:00 AM  
Blogger Aristides said...

Desert Rat,

That's right. Copyright has expired on 'ole Moby Dick. Profits are impossible.

As you observed, this chickenhawk is searching for a new golden egg to sit on. There's nothing like comfort and safety and decadence and debauchery, eh Grandpa?

Now where to put those troops...

11/12/2006 09:46:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

"grandpa"--LOL...until my dentures fell in my mush, anyway--

11/12/2006 09:53:00 AM  
Blogger Cruiser said...

BL said:

"Well, 3case, as pro-administration as I am, it was not only the UN that pressured Israel to stop short."

3case agreed.

I disagree that the U.S. held Israel back. My read on it was that Olmert got cold feet after he started the effort and took some casualties (it did not help that there were too many instances when Israeli reservists were ineffectual or did not follow orders). All you have to remember is all of the times that Israel threatened to go to the Litani - but then delayed, delayed, delayed.

The U.S. provided Israel with (attempted) face-saving cover that Olmert desperately wanted. Olmert wanted it to look like they were chomping at the bit to go after Hezbollah, but were restrained by their cool-headed friend. I don't think many people bought it.

The problem for Israel at this point is that it has not done anything to address the structural deficiencies revealed in the battle. They need to toughen their reserves for combat and they need a new government that will press the campaign aggressively regardless of the casualties (a disease that seems to afflict all western governments at this point).

11/12/2006 10:10:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Well I'm glad that you youngsters have finally caught up to where us old folk were, years ago.

"Control the content"

When the US Army rolled into Iraq there were 800 embedded reporters, public support for the war was in the mid 60% range.

Last I heard there are now 9 embeds in Iraq. Public support has evaporated to the mid 30& range, while the Democrats have gained the Congress.

Think there may be a correllation there, youngster?

Memory holes, it is a wonderful thing, not to forget where one has stood before.

11/12/2006 10:17:00 AM  
Blogger John Samford said...

Ceaderford, what a coward you are! Hezebolla is America's fight also. Just because you are a coward and to foolish to see that America and Israel either stand united or die alone is no reason to run from this fight.
No wait, If we let the Arabs commit genocide on the Jews in Israel, you think that they will leave the rest of us alone? What a curious idea, where did you get it? The bowl of your crack pipe maybe?
What happen to the great liberal cry for Mulit-lateralism? Are there Exceptions for certain Nations?
You forget, Israel has nuclear weapons and the technology to deliver them ANYWHERE on the planet.
When New York goes up in a Pika Dan and mushroom cloud, will it be from a bomb built in Pakistan, the DPRK, Iran, Russia, China, or Israel?

MAD sort of breaks down when you don't know who the 'Mutual' part of the Equation is.

"War is just when it is necessary; arms are permissible when there is no hope except in arms."
- Niccolo Machiavelli

11/12/2006 11:24:00 AM  
Blogger John Samford said...

Ceaderford, what a coward you are! Hezebolla is America's fight also. Just because you are a coward and to foolish to see that America and Israel either stand united or die alone is no reason to run from this fight.
No wait, If we let the Arabs commit genocide on the Jews in Israel, you think that they will leave the rest of us alone? What a curious idea, where did you get it? The bowl of your crack pipe maybe?
What happen to the great liberal cry for Mulit-lateralism? Are there Exceptions for certain Nations?
You forget, Israel has nuclear weapons and the technology to deliver them ANYWHERE on the planet.
When New York goes up in a Pika Dan and mushroom cloud, will it be from a bomb built in Pakistan, the DPRK, Iran, Russia, China, or Israel?

MAD sort of breaks down when you don't know who the 'Mutual' part of the Equation is.

"War is just when it is necessary; arms are permissible when there is no hope except in arms."
- Niccolo Machiavelli

11/12/2006 11:28:00 AM  
Blogger Hayek said...

Are we witnessing the rise and fall of the Roman Empire,redux,except the last part being repoduced by fast-forwarding?

11/12/2006 11:57:00 AM  
Blogger RCM said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

11/12/2006 11:57:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

all I know, Hayek, is that the Iranian drone flying over the USS Ronald Reagan and delivering the film I'm watching on tv right now, makes me wonder the same thing you're wondering.

11/12/2006 12:13:00 PM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

hayek said:

Are we witnessing the rise and fall of the Roman Empire,redux,except the last part being repoduced by fast-forwarding?

The Empire (read "Western World") is about to split East and West again, and once more the European half will enter the dark ages as minarets supplant cathedral bells across the Continent and the neo-Soviets create a hydraulic despotism with their fossil fuels. The half that remains (read "North America" and "Australia") will hold out considerably longer, unless they rot from within.

11/12/2006 12:35:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

Cedarford said...
Hopefully it can be left as just Israel's problem

Oops there it is....

Yea after all it wasn't Hezb'Allah that murdered 241 Marines.


1. We have no defense treaty with Israel. Something the people who claim we must fight Israel's fights conveniently forget.

2. Israel will not let 97% of Americans own property there, be buried there, or become citizens due to our religious beliefs.

3. 4 Presidents in 23 years elected to do nothing after the Marine Barracks attacks. 7 Presidents in 30 years elected to do nothing in retaliation to China for supplying Vietnam. Are you saying that any past assault by either side justifies war decades later? If so, then the Iranians are justified attacking us for the Vicennes shoot down of an Iranian aircraft that killed hundreds.

Or you can simply end your stupid claim that past causus belli not acted on can be pocketed and pulled out at convenience to justify war (which BTW, goes against treaties the US signed).

And a little history primer. The US went in to Lebanon as neutral peacekeepers. Both we and the French were seduced into taking sides - us by the Israel Lobby's clout, the French by old friends and allies in the Maronite Christian, Alawi, and Druze communities.

We "violated" our neutrality by using the New Jersey Battleship and a nuclear cruiser to fire on Hezbollah positions because they were beating one of Israel's proxy militias. That was months before the barracks bombing. And Hez publically declared they were seeking payback for the hundreds killed in the Naval bombardment. It was the Marine's screwup that they thought somehow the fact that American shells were blasting Hez out of the hillsides wouldn't affect the "peacekeeping" American forces - what was done to Hez was between the White House, Israel, and the Navy - not the Marines. So they didn't try protecting their forces from Hex attack and the barracks blew up. Barracks are a favorite target in any conflict.
****************
Samford - Feel Americans are obligated to fight and die for a "Special Friend" we have no mutual defense pact with?? Well, by all means macho keyboarder..get yourself over there and take that other fake "supersoldier/spy", Habu1, with you.

For me, we need to get with Britain, Russia, the EU and decide what Final Borders and reparations obligations for stolen lands and properties will be imposed on the "shitty little countries" who have gone 60 years without agreement on those matters. They can't agree, it must be done for them. The US cannot be mired in recalcitrant, intransigent Zionist vs. irrational Arab extremists for another 30 years of inordinate sucking up of most of America's diplomacy, foreign policy attention.. It would be best though to wait on forcing a Final Settlement until we have a President that will hopefully fix much of what Baker cannot fix of Bush's overseas mess.

And it can be fairly easy. Israel screams never - we agree not to help Israel as a total oil embargo is launched. The Arabs disagree - no more European, Saudi, American, or Iranian money, weapons, trade, or refugee aid- and they would buckle as fast as the Israeli opposition to a Final Settlement. Fixed Borders, big fences, and lots of money to the Palestinians for lands and property thieved from them.

11/12/2006 12:43:00 PM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

Habu, I suspicioned you knew that. I just like the pome, and it always seems so appropriate when we're talking about the Middle East and its determination to blow up the whole entire world.

It even has a line that describes Cedarford:

"The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity."

11/12/2006 12:44:00 PM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

cedarford wrote:

We have no defense treaty with Israel. Something the people who claim we must fight Israel's fights conveniently forget.

We've got something more ironclad than a mere treaty with Israel, we've got an evangelical president influenced by the pastor Hagees and Hal Lindseys who want to get in on the winning side of future prophetic history. Bush already said America would defend Israel in a shooting match.

11/12/2006 12:50:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Arafat always said pretty much the same thing as you, C4.

Problem is, when he got it (see "Oslo"), it wasn't good enough.

What on earth, what on the earth, makes you think the jihad would do a deal--I mean, follow through on a deal?

What makes you think they wouldn't follow the Jews to Alaska, if the Israelis took Achmadinejade's prescription?

Really--those aren't rhetorical questions--I'd like to know what you think.

11/12/2006 01:29:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

All this talk about tribalism trumping national identities, wake up and smell the coffee, C4--there is a Judao-Christian tribe, too. It just isn't really pissed off enough yet to assert itself as such.

Israel has the religion law not against you, but in an effort to hold the line against another freaking Holocaust.

That thing in living memory, when nobody lifted a finger to help the people--in time--because they were just another pan-European minority group.

Think maybe it could just be that Americans refuse to see that 20th century Europe thing reprised?

That the alliance is an American desire, too, and not a case of doofus Americans being led by an all-powerful Zionist lobby that inexplicably (in this perhaps existentially critical-to-Israel election just past) could not deliver a pro-war US Congress?

11/12/2006 01:44:00 PM  
Blogger ricpic said...

When will American Jews wake up to the fact that the direst threat to their future comes from the increasingly, openly anti-semitic Left, and that the Democratic Party, clearly in the hands of that Left, is no place to put their funds or hang their hats?

11/12/2006 02:32:00 PM  
Blogger Habu1 said...

C4 your 1:16

What color is the sky in your world?

11/12/2006 02:32:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

What color is the sky where the UAW's hourly wage is more important than the existence of the founding tribe of our culture?

11/12/2006 02:37:00 PM  
Blogger trangbang68 said...

Cedarford,Tell me your finger wasn't itching when you typed in "Final Settlement".Right after the "S" when your finger flew to the "O" key...Final Solution...no wait I mean "Final Settlement".You're an odious cat.All your puffy intellectual posturing doesn't disguise that vile odor emanating from your black heart.
Saint Teresita,in your quest to be canonized as the smartest person in the room ,slow down for a minute and examine the contradictions in your arguments.In the immortal words of Robert Hunter:
"Please don't te the rap Jack,if you got nothing new to say
If you please don't back up the track;this train's gotta run today
I spent a little time on the mountain,I spent a little time on the hill
I heard someone say "Better run away"
Others say "Better stand still"

11/12/2006 02:48:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

gotta be just habit (no pun intended, Sister WC).

11/12/2006 03:06:00 PM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

ricpic said:

When will American Jews wake up to the fact that the direst threat to their future comes from the increasingly, openly anti-semitic Left, and that the Democratic Party, clearly in the hands of that Left, is no place to put their funds or hang their hats?

I'm thinking it will be sometime between the total annihilation of the state of Israel and the first CAIR-inspired pogrom against the final remnant American Jews. My bet is that it will be closer to the latter.

11/12/2006 03:12:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

how did my post answering WC's end up above hers?

11/12/2006 03:17:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

i must have written before her post before I wrote after her post. See, too much Jf'nKerry will queer up the very fabric of time and space.

11/12/2006 03:25:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

I don't know why you guys bother answering C4. He wants all Jews dead, so there could hardly be a counterargument that he would accept. Will defer to Iran and Islamic Revolution, but not to Israel and Jewish sentiment. The rest is just ornamentation.

11/12/2006 03:35:00 PM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

dan said:
I don't know why you guys bother answering C4. He wants all Jews dead, so there could hardly be a counterargument that he would accept.

In that respect, he's very much like the majority of the planet, including most American Jews. There could be a diabolical explanation for anti-Semitism, or it could be that Christ-killer meme is still floating around, or it could be envy at how they have made their desert blossom, or it could just be classic resentment at a group of people who absolutely refuse to give up their tribal identity and become plain vanilla human beings.

11/12/2006 03:42:00 PM  
Blogger 2164th said...

Interesting how things work out. When Wretchard closed comments down in a decision he eventually reversed, a few of the more prolific posters moved over to the Elephant Bar. I set it up as a back-up. They continue to blog on both sites as there is a fair amount of differences on both blogs. I love the Belmont Club. It has the finest mix on intelligent commentary on the net. I will continue to blog here because it is an opportunity and a challenge to exchange ideas.

Since the forming of the EB, C4 has been making a larger foot print at the BC. I have been following his commentary, which is 85% brilliant, 65% right and usually 90% sullied with anti-Jewish rhetoric. It occludes his vision and judgment and flaws the man, or exposes the flaws in the man. He has never entered into a one on one over at the EB, because he knows he will get his clock cleaned on a toe to toe. I would welcome an engagement here or at the EB and ask Wretchard to suspend the rules and open up a forum to allow C4 to respond in real time, with the suspension of the Queensbury rules.

I am sure C4 is up to the challenge.

11/12/2006 03:42:00 PM  
Blogger RCM said...

Buddy Larsen said...
11/12/2006 01:44:38 PM

Buddy. Spot the (fill in your favorite) on!

11/12/2006 03:52:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

WC, and don't forget, nobody likes to look up, in the middle of a life devoted to rejecting God, and see people whose very identity is so intertwined with the concept of.

I agree with dan and 2164 both, if that is possible.

C4 has the virus, and you can't talk-cure it. On the other hand, he is SO close to being a human, it's just that one little wire hooked up wrong. You feel like, a magic word at the right time will fix it, but you don't expect it to happen. But you keep trying.

11/12/2006 03:55:00 PM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

2164th wrote:

He has never entered into a one on one over at the EB, because he knows he will get his clock cleaned on a toe to toe.

Nothing against you personally, 2164th, but while the EB did fill an important role during the technical difficulties at BC, many of the current Elephant Barflies are just interested in scoring points with their mates. It has too much of the character of a clique. People who don't fit in, who have rarely or never attacked another blogger personally, and who are more interested in just exchanging ideas and analysis will gravitate back here.

11/12/2006 03:58:00 PM  
Blogger bobalharb said...

I, for one, envy how the Israelis made the desert blossom. I wish I could do that. Dad had a small interest in a sugar beet farm in central Washington that went bottoms up finally. We could have used some advice.

11/12/2006 04:09:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

"Hydroponics", bobal. I remember Life Magazine covering Israel's development of it, way back in the 60s. A drop of water intervaled to max a yield, with zero waste. I thought "how simple, how marvelous".

11/12/2006 04:16:00 PM  
Blogger slimslowslider said...

Cedarwart would be Fragged. He's smart but Ignoble.

11/12/2006 04:21:00 PM  
Blogger bobalharb said...

I rent an apartment to a guy whose job is with an irrigation company that sells technology just for that. Underground drip irrigation, only at night, fertilize with the water, stuff like that. We didn't know what we were doing at the time. Also, prices.

11/12/2006 04:29:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

slimslow, right--Man do not live by bread alone.

11/12/2006 04:39:00 PM  
Blogger Jacko said...

Scenario 1:

The UN watches.

LEBANON re-arms. Please don't confuse toy governments with thugs in charge.

Relative skirmishes ensue.

Iran acquires a nuclear weapon.

Europe is lost and ineffectual. They are ready to lose.

USA watches. They have lost all resolve.

Israel declares real war with Iran either pre-emptively or after they fire a weapon.

Scenario 2: An horrific terrorist plot on American soil renews purpose and resolve. USA gets involved.

It depends on the timeline; our self-incrimination, internal politics and forgetfulness all have a short life span.

11/12/2006 04:42:00 PM  
Blogger Coisty said...

The US has an interest in Israeli security in the Middle East and has an interest in maintaining stability.


So the US does want stability in the ME. Someone better tell Mark Steyn and the whole neocon gang as they've spent the last few years claiming that stability in the ME is bad news. I guess Israel is an exception...again.

Ceaderford, what a coward you are! Hezebolla is America's fight also.

If beating a Shiite Muslim militia from Lebanon is America's fight then why did the US put Shiite Muslims and their death squads into power in Iraq? Why are they goodies in Iraq but baddies in Lebanon.

Just because you are a coward and to foolish to see that America and Israel either stand united or die alone is no reason to run from this fight.


OK, I'll bite. How will the defeat of Israel lead to the Muslim conquest of the USA? (Assuming, of course, that the Mexicans don't conquer it first).

11/12/2006 04:55:00 PM  
Blogger 3Case said...

"...Iranian drone flying over the USS Ronald Reagan...."

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Isn't that akin to a rubber raft motoring up to the USS Cole? Courts-martial for everybody who would permit that.

11/12/2006 05:24:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

3case, go to Gateway comments, read 'old crow'. he's in the task force, i think.

11/12/2006 05:45:00 PM  
Blogger sam said...

DEBKAfile’s military sources provide details of the massive deployments:

1. A large-scale US-Indian sea exercise called Malabar 06 is in progress off the Indian coast of Goa, ending Nov. 5. The American vessels taking part are the USS Boxer carrier, the USS Bunker Hill guided missile battle cruiser, the guided missile destroyer USS Howard and the USS Benfold , as well as the Los Angeles-class nuclear attack submarine Providence and the Canadian guided missile frigate HMCS Ottawa .

2. American, Italy, France, Britain, Australia, Bahrain, Qatar, the United Arab Emirates and Kuwait are taking part in an exercise practicing the interception of ships carrying nuclear materials or components for use in advanced weapons. The exercise opposite Bahrain is the first to be held in the Persian Gulf under the three-year old proliferation security initiative.

3. Saudi Arabia did not join the multinational Bahrain exercise, but instead mustered its entire navy and all its special forces for deployment in dense defensive array around the biggest oil terminal in the world, at Ras Tanura. Riyadh acted in response to tangible intelligence that al Qaeda is preparing to attack its oil installations.


Naval Deployment

Makes Olmert's visit all that more intriguing.

11/12/2006 06:57:00 PM  
Blogger Kirk Parker said...

Habu,

Bork was conciously echoing Yeates.

11/12/2006 07:16:00 PM  
Blogger unaha-closp said...

Agree with C4's original comment, because un-allying [sic?] with Israel will slip the noose of American control from Israels neck. It is the need to balance the needs of America with its own protection that is killing Israel, America needs to accomodate with IslamoFacists because America requires oil security. Israel requires security - period - currently the billions in American aid provide this, but the point where American constraint outweighs American usefulness is fast approaching and it is vitally important that Israel does not continue to accept American aid beyond a point of no return. So let Israel of the leash, the sooner the better.

11/12/2006 08:00:00 PM  
Blogger ledger said...

I am wondering if Wretchard keeps old Cedar around just to aggravate posters (stir the pot a little and generate some more posts). I personally use the scroll bar when I see his name appear (to get by his sprawling posts).

But, on a serious note, I think Israel is on a tight time schedule. At some point Iran will have the A-bomb and will use it. And, at some point HB will so heavily armed it will be impossible for Israel to contain them. Which one will happen first is the question.

I understand there is at least 3 carrier task forces in the area. Now would be the time to cripple the Iranian centrifuges and other targets.

Further, it would be a nice pay back for the recent statements of their "spiritual leader" Korncreamy about the US elections. I love to hear Bush say: "Iran sure took a thumping."

11/12/2006 08:05:00 PM  
Blogger Das said...

ledger.

I agree re: C4's anti-Semitism is revolting.

11/12/2006 08:14:00 PM  
Blogger Das said...

My fear is that the west will come to regard Israel the way the west came to regard Byzantium by year 1453. To wit, the west got tired of rallying armies to help Constantinople fight off the Muslim Turks. Why did the Byzantines have to go bury themselves among the rabid Muslims anyway? It's not our fault. We've got enough of our own problems. And don't the Byzantines think they're better than everyone anyway? France begged off; Spain and Portugual were mopping up their own Muslim conflicts. The pope issued a few half-hearted edicts and pleas for help but Italy just shrugged...in the end...blood ran over the cobblestones, etc (music up and out). Result was that Islam nearly overran Europe and for the next three centuries had one fang deeply planted in the lifeblood of the continent.

11/12/2006 08:36:00 PM  
Blogger ledger said...

Das I agree.

I have been reading the Belmont Club since the old days and I simply got fed-up with his drivel so I just scroll past without reading it (it saves time and aggravation).

Enough. I done harping on old Cedar.

11/12/2006 08:47:00 PM  
Blogger 3Case said...

u-c,

If we un-ally with Israel, where do they get their materiels for warfighting?

Last I knew, only about 12% of USA's oil comes from ME. We are more fighting for the security of Europe's oil.

Israel does not have the leadership to be "off the leash". As has been suggested here before, though urging a different method, consulting Sharon via Quija board may bring better results.

11/12/2006 08:47:00 PM  
Blogger Pierre Legrand said...

Hey I wonder where all those people are who were declaring that Israel had won a victory in the last fight. Do they even have the decency to admit they might have gotten it wrong? Remember all those pundits that were desperately trying to make the withdrawal something it wasn't?

Victory...hehe...yea victory in war does not mean that you leave your enemy alive to regroup. Victory means they are crushed. We have foregotten how to do that...'

For a primer on Victory
Idiots guide to Victory

11/12/2006 09:05:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Pierre,

Perhaps there is a convergence going around this season. Speaking only for myself, I'm beginning to understand a new definition of "vicotry."

It began a few days ago when Michael Totten had that post about the argument with the Hezbollah member. The Hezbollah member set a compelling notion for victory: victory for Israel is taking away HB's rockets and any other strategic capability they have

It really struck me - as for awhile I've considered "victory" as a nation like Germany and Japan, only called Iraq. Victory was some Iraqi economic niche and a reputation in one or more industries. But I was naive. Victory is, as you say, the destruction of your enemy and this is where the Air Power of nation building exercises fails. Precision guided munitions are not destructive enough.

Surgical, sure, but could there be a time when the "surgica" is no longer required, when man must face the barbarian, in their manifest hordes, and do away with the etiquette and niceties he'd wish to cover the globe with?

This "cleansing flame" backlash that's become a mainstay theme in BC and EB discourse does suffer from this ambiguity in what exactly your putting the flame to, so to speak.

But after watchig events unfold, I've come to think that ambiguity is the lack of imagination in the audience hearing the promise of the backlash. Which cities, someone asks? Why, whichever cities are most important, most functional, most cherished and loved by the enemy. If we can't persuade their intent, then go after their capabilities, whether those capabilities are weapons manufacturing or healthcare that sustains that intent. That is, its war. If they don't like their doctors and sickwards being turned into meat and cinders, they should try to learn english and do something productive. Quran verses will not help them in the 21st Century.

Aristides says we should own the context. Indeed, the context should be fear, the more superstitious the better, that Americans are terrible and merciless.

You can only be pissed off at the blown up hospital if you aren't running for your life, if you aren't utterly convinced that unless you get the hell out, and never participate in the cultural, social and political machinations that lead to this point up to now, the point where you and your jihadi brother are fleeing the artillery of a Spectre, and both of you fork in your flight, and before your turn a corner you see that he is cleaved in two by a round from the darkness above you, you begin to understand the error of your ways, and hope and swear that the beast grinding up your cities will stop.

Where the carrots have failed, Wretchard's Keyser Soze comes on stage. We wish to be noble, when it is only demanded that we be natural. The biographies cut-short by whatever munitions we throw there way will not move Americans, as we have our own biographies we'd like to see written, and we were tending to them long before the Jihad sought to play a new script.

11/12/2006 10:13:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Pierre,

Perhaps there is a convergence going around this season. Speaking only for myself, I'm beginning to understand a new definition of "victory."

It began a few days ago when Michael Totten had that post about the argument with the Hezbollah member. The Hezbollah member set a compelling notion for victory: victory for Israel is taking away HB's rockets and any other strategic capability they have

It really struck me - as for awhile I've considered "victory" as a nation like Germany and Japan, only called Iraq. Victory was some Iraqi economic niche and a reputation in one or more industries. But I was naive. Victory is, as you say, the destruction of your enemy and this is where the Air Power of nation building exercises fails. Precision guided munitions are not destructive enough.

Surgical, sure, but could there be a time when the "surgica" is no longer required, when man must face the barbarian, in their manifest hordes, and do away with the etiquette and niceties he'd wish to cover the globe with?

This "cleansing flame" backlash that's become a mainstay theme in BC and EB discourse does suffer from this ambiguity in what exactly your putting the flame to, so to speak.

But after watchig events unfold, I've come to think that ambiguity is the lack of imagination in the audience hearing the promise of the backlash. Which cities, someone asks? Why, whichever cities are most important, most functional, most cherished and loved by the enemy. If we can't persuade their intent, then go after their capabilities, whether those capabilities are weapons manufacturing or healthcare that sustains that intent. That is, its war. If they don't like their doctors and sickwards being turned into meat and cinders, they should try to learn english and do something productive. Quran verses will not help them in the 21st Century.

Aristides says we should own the context. Indeed, the context should be fear, the more superstitious the better, that Americans are terrible and merciless.

You can only be pissed off at the blown up hospital if you aren't running for your life, if you aren't utterly convinced that unless you get the hell out, and never participate in the cultural, social and political machinations that lead to this point up to now, the point where you and your jihadi brother are fleeing the artillery of a Spectre, and both of you fork in your flight, and before your turn a corner you see that he is cleaved in two by a round from the darkness above you, you begin to understand the error of your ways, and hope and swear that the beast grinding up your cities will stop.

Where the carrots have failed, Wretchard's Keyser Soze comes on stage. We wish to be noble, when it is only demanded that we be natural. The biographies cut-short by whatever munitions we throw there way will not move Americans, as we have our own biographies we'd like to see written, and we were tending to them long before the Jihad sought to play a new script.

11/12/2006 10:14:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Great, wonderful - double post and i cant delete it. Whole reason why I posted the second one - mispelling the operative "victory"

Sorry everyone.

11/12/2006 10:15:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

Heh! Stirred up the expected Israel Uber Alles Crowd hissy fit.
Not planned, but totally predictable given some people on the Right believe that all nations may be criticized - except their beloved Israel, whose Dear Leader Himself has strong religious feelings towards. (Not shared by the Real Churchill he postures as, BTW)

Which is basically anyone who is not a hard line Likudnik or some confused American conservative that equates love of a particular foreign country with love of America. And the dummie JINSA Jingoists make the predictable "anti-Semite! Anti-Semite!" charges on anyone that disagrees with them, including 45% of Israelis - which makes the charge silly, overused, and now is even greeted by a yawn in much of America.

Once again the facts for the intellectually dense that fail to grip the realities of why the US should not directly involved in a preemptive, non-defensive 2nd optional war of major, major impact on ourselves and the entire world simply to "help our Bestest Friend":

1. There is no mutual defense pact between the United States and Darfur, Bosnia, Myanmar, or Israel.

2. With oil and gas reserves declining rapidly in Iran, the move to civilian nuclear power has nearly 100% support of the Iranian people for both national pride in their US-trained nuclear workforce and program, and for the energy future of Iran when fossil fuel stocks are depleted.

3. Any move by the US to destroy Iranian nuclear assets from the air would be ineffectual. We don't know where several critical sites are, some sites are hardened from bombing and protected with state of art air defenses. At best we delay their program a few years and guarantee uniting all the Iranian people behind the Mullahs. As well as kill dozens or even hundreds of Russians in country doing legal, IAEA-sanctioned activities. Triggering a bad Russian reaction, perhaps resuming the Cold War animosities. And trigger a major global recession, even depression from loss of Gulf oil for a sustained period of time - which also has the unpleasant side effect of driving Europe into Russia's hands for energy needs.

4. For America to "stop" Iran to save "Our Special Friend" will require a full invasion of a country 3X bigger, 4 times more populous, with far better land warfare activities - using an Army force the US does not have in existence at present. Ledeen and others who claim the Iranians are ready to topple the Mullahs hem and haw on the effect of US soldiers attacking the country...but enough that even they do not claim that we would be welcomed as liberators.

5. Any move by the Israelis other than nuclear missiles would not work. The Israelis have no long-range bombing capability, no boots on the ground capacity other than perhaps to pick 2-3 of the 70 sites for very high casualty commando raids. Not only do they have to cross several enemy nations airspaces with no refueling capabilities - but they would put the US, confronted by the Israeli AF assets over Iraq, in a position of having to shoot them down on orders of the sovereign Iraqi government. Or practically, declare ourselves in a war not just with Iran, but Iraq and all like-minded Sunni nations that would interpret the US working with an Israeli attack as proof that America is at war with all Muslim nations and seeking their oil and extermination of their sovereignity.

6. The Zionist Supermen and their "world's best military" and "surgical air power" have also proved incapable of stopping a much smaller Iranian-backed irregular proxy force in their backyard. Not exactly encouraging news to the Love Likud boys here in America that are ignorant of not just the geographical scales & logistical difference between attacking Hezbollah or Iran Proper, but of the colossal distinction in military capacities of the two.

7. Finally, and most important, there is no American support for the discredited neocon scheme of several "easy" major wars started by the USA in the ME to achieve "regeime change", democratize nations, and make it safe for Israel to maintain it's status quo. No support. Not in Congress, not in the legal system, not in the general public, not even in the military once Rumsfelds neocon co-cabalists are purged out. Nor can Bush just do a sneak attack possibly starting a hot, WWIII - without meeting his legal and Constitutional obligations to consult treaty allies and Congress 1st.


Since I care about America, and only America's interests, I am fine criticizing Israel, if that
protects OUR interests.

Other posters like Buddy, Habu, Nahncee, dla, appear to have loyalty issues or are just too dumb to understand a conflict with Iran is not a cakewalk bombing campaign. Even 2164th who is locked into the notion that unquestioning devotion and obediance to Israel's wishes is an American conservative ideological prerequisite. Need to sit down and ponder matters of personal loyalty to America, if they are smart enough to understand the ramifications of breeching the diplomatic efforts now underway with a sneak attack, that we would have no allies in this - not even Britain -, or need to understand that America conservatism was never wedded to foreign ideologies like Zionism until the Religious Right and the neocons insinuated their beliefs into the process.

11/13/2006 12:58:00 AM  
Blogger The Wobbly Guy said...

Isn't it kinda late to back away from Israel now?

And besides, granted that they have made their fair chare of mistakes, the ME Jews are still reasonable folks. After all, they were reasonable enough to get sweet-talked and convinced into several near-suicidal initiatives.

Besides, my country owes Israel big for their military aid when we just gotten our independence. I won't forget that.

11/13/2006 01:59:00 AM  
Blogger lugh lampfhota said...

C4,

Europe is already driven into Russia's hands for energy needs (i.e. natural gas).

And yes we could throw Israel to the neighborhood wolves. But if we did, this time, knowing what we know happened in Germany fifty years ago, could we really look ourselves in face in the mirror afterwards? Would all those words about "endowed by our creator with certain inalienable rights" have any meaning? Some would just fill up the new SUV and say it don't mean nothing.

Anyone who can't see where the ummah is going is a blind fool. This isn't about US policy vis-a-vis some nation that the Brits crayoned onto a map a century ago. This is about having the will to exist as a culture that our gandchildren can live freely in.

C4 you are only interested in yourself, today, and that is sad, cowardly and pathetic.

11/13/2006 04:06:00 AM  
Blogger Barry Meislin said...

Cedarford,

Not only have you managed to channel the Ayatollahs in brilliant fashion---how do you do it?---but that's about the most cogent argument in favor of staying out of World War II that I've heard in donkeys' ears.

11/13/2006 04:14:00 AM  
Blogger Hayek said...

The fact that the Arabs provide a small amount of our oil needs is not germaine to the Iran discussion. Oil is fungible and its price is determined on the spot market. Disruption of oil thru the Straits of Hormuz will drive the price thru the roof and a world wide deep recession.I think that will play a major roll in any decision on how to deal with Iranian actions.

11/13/2006 05:00:00 AM  
Blogger 2164th said...

C-4, your argument is devoid of one fact. Iran, under the mullahs has called for the elimination and destruction of Israel. The rhetoric has been backed with action and support to Hezbollah. Iran could withdraw that threat and not diminish its security by one millimeter. They do it for a logical reason. Iran also declared war on the USA when they attacked and occupied the US Embassy in Teheran. Iran continues to have no interest in normal relations with the US. They have a reason for that as well. Iran does this in the face of superior US power. Some like me believe that Iran, with nuclear weapons would be more bold rather than less. You may be comfortable with the notion and hope of good will from Iran. I am not. You have a lot of company on your side. Jimmy Carter tried it your way.

You personalize your argument with emotions. You say: " Even 2164th who is locked into the notion that unquestioning devotion and obedience to Israel's wishes is an American conservative ideological prerequisite. Need to sit down and ponder matters of personal loyalty to America"...

Now that is a personal attack on my loyalty and not on my argument. You have been personally attacked on this posting. I am sure you have a better argument but the fact is a debate is the only way to find out if that is so.

I have no emotional attachment to Israel, but I am not handicapped as you are with a visceral hatred towards Jews. I openly challenge you to debate this. Pick a time, and at your convenience post a comment and select a two-hour period to debate this at the Elephant Bar. It would not be appropriate for me to post a link, but your investigatory skills will help you to find it. Your accepting this challenge will bring respect for your willingness to stand for your beliefs. Your absence or rejection will be interpreted less kindly by others.

I encourage you to take a bold step and rise to the challenge.

11/13/2006 05:49:00 AM  
Blogger 3Case said...

C4,

Iran's provedocfw oil reserves: 133.3 billion bbl (2005 est.)

Iran's daily use: 1.425 million bbl

I did the math. They'll be out in 256.284547 years.

11/13/2006 06:29:00 AM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

hayek said:

Disruption of oil thru the Straits of Hormuz will drive the price thru the roof and a world wide deep recession.

Indeed, but a global recession will drive oil prices back down and things will reach a new equilibrium. At the end of the Asian Flu crisis of 1997-98 oil briefly hit $8 a barrel.

11/13/2006 06:35:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Back in the glory days of the Shah, the US wanted Iran to build 25 nuclear reactors, for electric production.

If Iran needed GE power plants, way back then, they certainly have a case for building them today.

Their population has grown, their oil reserves have not. What was good for them to buy from GE, cannot be argued against when the Russians beat the previous bid.

Fear is not enough, to justify nuclear preemption, which is what the Israeli would need, to eliminate the feared Iranian threat.

Who would come to the Iranians aid, and counterstrike Israel?
While the US has no signed mutual defense pact with Israel, it is assumed there is a defacto agreement. Could the Russians or French maintain the same with Iran?

Do not bet against the French doing what they'd consider flushing a "shitty little country",
nor the Russians for that matter.

Targets of opportunity, that would raise Russian stature amongst its' client States do not come along very often.

11/13/2006 06:40:00 AM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

cedarford wrote:

For America to "stop" Iran to save "Our Special Friend" will require a full invasion of a country 3X bigger, 4 times more populous, with far better land warfare activities - using an Army force the US does not have in existence at present.

You like to paint the Iranians as ten feet tall, but they were nearly defeated in the 1980s by the same Iraqi army we rolled over in 3 days with 600,000 troops, and 3 weeks with 250,000 troops. Only the ChiCom-esque expedient of sending mass waves of untrained peasants stopped Saddam's advance.

11/13/2006 06:43:00 AM  
Blogger whit said...

I didn't read the comments so if this is repetitious, pardon me.

My initial reaction to the post is "That Condileeza Rice and the French...confound them."

Why the Bush Administration, which had hung tough through the final days of Arafat and into the Hamas years, reversed course is beyond me and inexcusable.

Anyone who doesn't know the true intentions of the Muslim world in regard to Israel is not to be taken seriously.

11/13/2006 07:17:00 AM  
Blogger Habu1 said...

C-4,
While I can't speak for the others I can say with equivocation that I am as least as dumb as you are.

BTW, if we ever meet would you sign a release saying I can kick your ass? Just thought I'd ask.
If I can't get that concession then I'm just gonna stick my tongue out at you..so there.

11/13/2006 08:13:00 AM  
Blogger Habu1 said...

...Coming soon, another exciting adventure of Swann Mullett. This upcoming adventure. "The Hair Club for Men", don't miss it.


(In his best Nixonian jowl shaking pronunciamento he emblores W, "How can you let Habu get away with that racist screed?")

11/13/2006 08:22:00 AM  
Blogger skipsailing said...

A question was asked earlier in this thread and as yet no answer is clear.

It's not my question, mind you, but it seems to be an important one:

How will the defeat of Israel lead to the Muslim conquest of the USA?

it's an interesting question and I'm curious as to how some of the more learned commenters here would respond.

As to the UNIFIL situation, I still like it. If Israel is forced to take on the party of god once again it will be noted as a singular failure of the UN and the French.

I'm OK with that, and yes pollyanna isn't dead.

11/13/2006 08:34:00 AM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

skipsailing said:

How will the defeat of Israel lead to the Muslim conquest of the USA?

Because Israel will go down like the defenders of Masada and take Mecca down with them, and the Muslims will never forgive the Great Satan for letting Li'l Satan do that.

11/13/2006 08:38:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Furiously trying to hold his arms up in the familiar "V", he was in the middle of chanting "I Am Not A Crock" when two large crows swooped down, grabbed his shirtsleeves in their beaks, and flapped away, the three of them disappearing screaming and "cawing" into the low cloud cover, amidst a swelling volume of oohs and ahhs from the visibly impressed ground-bound audience.

11/13/2006 09:04:00 AM  
Blogger Dave H said...

C4 you are riding the high you got from the election, an election which if the Demo left wing gets is way is very likely to result in the death of hundreds of millions of your beloved Muslims, destruscion of several American cities with deaths in the tens of millions,probable destruction of most of Europe. On the other end of the possible range of outcomes is merely destruction of all Iranian infrastructure and World wide dperession as the bestpossible outcome. Rest assured, a Democrat will do it, they have less regard for economic consequences of their actions, possibly it is mere stupidity.

I hope you have a good long time to gloat before one of these scenarios occurs, they will occur, unfortunately I think, sooner.

11/13/2006 09:04:00 AM  
Blogger slimslowslider said...

chicken or the egg?

was hitler more motivated by conquering the world or by exterminating the jews?
I have a feeling cedarwart could live with dave h's scenarios as long as Israel became a statistic.

11/13/2006 09:20:00 AM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

Cedarford does have a good point. If "leaving it as just Israel's problem" means Condi won't come sniffing around with a peace solution just when the IDF gets going, maybe the IDF can set Hezbollah back for a year or two instead of just a few months,

11/13/2006 09:26:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

What keeps holding Leninism from being much more than an opportunistic and dangerous irritant to the global spread (albeit with set-backs) of free-market capitalism (in all it's florid incarnations), is that Leninism is without a heart, flat of aspect, a totally short-term self-interested driving-away by sneer, of the existence of the deepest yearning--the nameless yearning--of the human condition.

Israel is much more than just a little secondary nation unfortunately beset by ferocious local beasts.

Warning to free peoples everywhere--stand by and watch, and by inaction abet, another genocide to finally overcome her, and your soul will surely suffer, you will make it so suffer your own self, and no one can really tell how much, or how bad it will in the end be.

Now, some of you might laugh. Great, I hope no one ever has to depend upon you.

The world is fast preparing a lesson in parables, the lesson coming might already apply to much of how we have already been living (and perhaps must soon atone): Man does not live by bread alone.

You don't have to be a Bible-thumper to see it. I'm not, and I do.

"Loyalty issues", good God almighty.

I could go on, but realize the trap I'm walking into, being called a snake-handling Appalachian holy-roller.

I'm not, I'm just as sour and cynical as anyone else. I'm just saying, some defeats we will not be able to tolerate. Not me, necessarily, but "US", the American nation. We have to have the dream. As hard-bitten apparatchik numbers-crucnchers, we are just an amalgamated inter-group association.

11/13/2006 09:47:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

"interest" not "inter"--long posts wear out my faculties--

11/13/2006 09:49:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

It's very clear--just ask yourself, what if we had applied the immediate-term self-interest rule to our finest hour as a nation in modern times, WWII?

Morally, it made us, because--this is crucial--to've stayed out of it, and if the fascists had so won it, would've morally undone us. And a lot more, too, but it's all of a piece.

11/13/2006 09:55:00 AM  
Blogger Habu1 said...

In loving memory of SC Foster.

Old Folks at Home
Way down upon the Swanee River, Far, far away
That's where my heart is yearning ever, That's where the old folks stay
All up and down the whole creation, Sadly I roam
Still longing for the old plantation, And for the old folks at home

All the world is sad and dreary, Everywhere I roam
Oh, brothers, how my heart grows weary, Far from the old folks at home

All 'round the little farm I wandered, When I was young
There many happy days I squandered, Many the songs I sung
When I was playing with my brothers, Happy was I
Oh, take me to my kind old mother, There let me live and die

One little hut among the bushes, One that I love
Still sadly to my memory rushes, No matter where I roam
When will I see the bees a-hummin', All 'round the comb
When will I hear the banjo strummin', Down in my good old home

11/13/2006 10:19:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

"It's a Treat to Beat yer Feet, on de Mississippi Mud!"

11/13/2006 10:22:00 AM  
Blogger charlotte said...

Nice fiction and exposition today, Buddy!

11/13/2006 10:24:00 AM  
Blogger Habu1 said...

Camptown Races

Camptown ladies sing this song, do-da, do-da,
Camptown racetrack's two miles long, oh, the do-da day.
Goin’ to run all night, goin’ to run all day,
I bet my money on a bob-tailed nag, somebody bet on the gray.

The long-tailed filly and the big black horse, do-da, do-da,
Come to the mud hole and they all cut across, oh, the do-da day.
Goin’ to run all night, goin’ to run all day,
I bet my money on a bob-tailed nag, somebody bet on the gray

I went down South with my hat caved in, do-da, do-da,
I came back North with a pocket full of tin, oh, the do-da day.
Goin’ to run all night, goin’ to run all day,
I bet my money on a bob-tailed nag, somebody bet on the gray

11/13/2006 10:28:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Thanks, cat--the Nixon-jowl thing was inspirational.

If I may be lit'rary for a mo, I'd like to postulate that the old 19th century folk lyrics we seem to be encountering, are a reminder of an old America that is not, perhaps, if only we will choose that it not be, gone forever.

11/13/2006 10:37:00 AM  
Blogger Habu1 said...

Skipsailing,
Israel is but a small part of the Islamic agenda.
There "ideology" calls for ultimate conquest of all.
They'll just feel much better if they get the "Holy Lands" back first.
It's not a matter of who occupies them or if Israel had never been made a state. They just happen to be in the way of Islamic conquest.
Well start to have some serious problems in the Michegan/Detroit area of the US within the not so distant future since that is where the Islamists are most highly concentrated in this country.
In England last year the number one name for a baby boy was Mohammad..tell ya anything?
We're really slow here on the fact that this is a war of civilizations, and it's serious and for real.

11/13/2006 10:38:00 AM  
Blogger Habu1 said...

Very insightful Buddy, but that's you.You have a way of cutting through the fog.

We don't have to let it slide away. You have to fight for it though as you know.

11/13/2006 10:43:00 AM  
Blogger Habu1 said...

I better get back to the EB before Wretchard inposes sanctions on the group for rowdy and un Princeton like badinage.
I can feel his pain beginning to well up inside as hoi polloi tramble his fields of golden knowledge and intercourse grown course with Stephen Foster songs.
Do dah do dah

11/13/2006 10:47:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

if we want the project to survive, we need to each make a personal effort to dial back our 'white guilt' level to match the level of cultural guilt felt by our enemy.

11/13/2006 10:51:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

That, and try to love your neighbor, take out the garbage, eat right, and do some push-ups every day. Don't forget to floss.

11/13/2006 10:54:00 AM  
Blogger skipsailing said...

So what happens if we leave this as "just Israel's problem" and Israel loses?

Henry V Act III Scene III

Henry stands before the walls of Harfleur and tells the city fathers what will happen if his soldiers have to fight to take the town:

Therefore, you men of Harfleur,
Take pity of your town and of your people,
Whiles yet my soldiers are in my command;
Whiles yet the cool and temperate wind of grace
O'erblows the filthy and contagious clouds
Of heady murder, spoil and villany.
If not, why, in a moment look to see
The blind and bloody soldier with foul hand
Defile the locks of your shrill-shrieking daughters;
Your fathers taken by the silver beards,
And their most reverend heads dash'd to the walls,
Your naked infants spitted upon pikes,
Whiles the mad mothers with their howls confused
Do break the clouds, as did the wives of Jewry
At Herod's bloody-hunting slaughtermen.


Those people here who state that losing Israel would be a blot on our souls have it right. The muslims have sworn to kill jews everywhere they can and they will not spare the people in places like Tel Aviv if they manage a win.

Last week Argentina issued an arrest warrant for the former head of the Islamic State of Iran. The muslims will kill anywhere on this planet they can reach.

the fall of Israel will do nothing to slake the thirst for infidel blood of the muslim radicals.

After slaughtering every man woman and child they can, they will come for us. And we will be weakened morally because of our refusal to intercede. Unlike other human tragedies playing out right now, this conflict between the jews and the muslims pits our ally against our enemy.

11/13/2006 11:09:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

why Argentina issued that warrant: link

11/13/2006 11:25:00 AM  
Blogger slimslowslider said...

the Sacrifice "of Israel will do nothing to slake the thirst for infidel blood of the muslim radicals." I guess if your Europe, its worth a try.

11/13/2006 11:35:00 AM  
Blogger foxenburg said...

sorry, gotta be pedantic on this. it's not the "uk times". or as you sometimes call it, "the london times". it's "the times". all others: "ny times", "straits times", "japan times", "seattle times", "la times", "financial times" etc borrow their name from the original. the one and only.

11/13/2006 11:57:00 AM  
Blogger Yashmak said...

I fail to see how it's relevant that we "We have no defense treaty with Israel."

It's not about a treaty in the first place. Iran and Syria (and others) use their proxies (the Palestinians and Hezbollah) as pawns in their war against Israel, and we use Israel as our proxy to hold the line against them.

At what point did our interests stop including limiting the power of Islamic extremism?

There's only one practical reason for us NOT to get involved directly. It is the foreknowledge that Israel is capable of handling the problem on its own. Lacking that, it IS in our interest to get directly involved.

I also have to wonder why genocide, such a popular accusation of the left and forces of globalization, mysteriously fails to apply to the Israelis, who have lived under its threat since day one of their nation's existence.

Individuals like Cedarford can accuse those who don't adhere to their shortsighted beliefs as "failing to grip the realities", but the only reality I'm seeing here is that they have no problem with the prospect of Israel falling, and her people being murdered wholesale. The world recoiled in horror the first time someone tried to kill this whole people. . .now it sees fit to patiently sit on its collective hands and wait for it to happen. That in itself provides tacit approval of such a course.

11/13/2006 12:09:00 PM  
Blogger Habu1 said...

Buddy,
I have zero white guilt.



(swan mullett....see how can you allow these racist remarks)*
* SPECIAL note. tonights character of swann millett will be played by Paul Rueubens, aka "Pee Wee Herman"

11/13/2006 01:59:00 PM  
Blogger Habu1 said...

Soon to be released by Vanity Press is the collected works of C4, entitled "Mein Crap"

11/13/2006 02:02:00 PM  
Blogger Ash said...

buddy wrote:

"It's very clear--just ask yourself, what if we had applied the immediate-term self-interest rule to our finest hour as a nation in modern times, WWII?"

Buddy, do you really see a lot of similarities between the lead up to WWII and our current situation? What currently resembles the expansion through military force employed by the Germans and the Japanese do you see today?

11/13/2006 02:20:00 PM  
Blogger skipsailing said...

Ash: Chad and the Sudan come to mind. the current unrest in Lebannon, quite clearly fomented by Iran also comes to mind.

How about Hezbullah's support of Chavez or the bombings around the world?

No analogy is perfect but your attempts to deflect the argument away from the gathering threat is purile in the extreme.

By the way, nothing would help us more than a giant all at the same time repudiation of white guilt.

As I've stated elsewhere, what people like Ash are most upset about is that we Americans are failing in our discharge of the whiteman's burden. The violence in Iraq and elsewhere cannot be blamed on the people doing the senseless killing. Oh no. The violence, according to Ash and those who think as he does, is because we don't have people in place there with the proper sense of noblesse oblige.

if we did indeed have noblesse oblige as our fundamental prinicple, then according to the critics we would have created an environment where arab on arab violence never occurs.

Arabs killing other arabs is our failing because we're not correctly shouldering the white man's burden. It's a simple as that.

The same dynamic works with racial violence in America. The fact that most black people are killed by other black people does not relieve us whities of our guilt. Oh no. We will never be absolved of our guilt and therefore all the miseries of the world will be our fault. Drought in ethopia? Global warming brought on by successful whities in America and Europe.

violence in the Sudan? The vestiges of the slave trade imposed on the region by White Europeans.

Genocide, in Rwanda? A failure of the white man to intercede and prevent the lesser folks from killing each other. Clinton said as much when he claimed the title of America's first black president.

The Rape of Nanking? A direct result of that aggressive white man Perry's foolish effort to open Japan to the west.

yes, we will never live down white guilt as long as others find it useful.

Screw guilt it's an interesting emotion but a crappy source of motivation.

11/13/2006 02:53:00 PM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

skipsailing

Genocide, in Rwanda? A failure of the white man to intercede and prevent the lesser folks from killing each other.

I've even seen this guilt-trip phenomenon here on BC when people tried to defend the American adventure in Vietnam by laying the boat people's plight and the killing fields of Cambodia on the cut'n'runners. By the same token we don't owe the Iraqi people squat and we can leave any time we've a mind to. In fact they owe us, big time, for taking the yoke of Saddam off their smelly neck.

11/13/2006 03:27:00 PM  
Blogger unaha-closp said...

The world recoiled in horror the first time someone tried to kill this whole people. . .now it sees fit to patiently sit on its collective hands and wait for it to happen. That in itself provides tacit approval of such a course.

Not approval, merely ambivalence.

America and everyone else is most concerned with the free flow of oil. You want single digit inflation, a job, house payments you can meet, a retirement then you better make sure the oil keeps flowing.

What is stupid is "friends of Israel" lobbying to shame Americans away from protecting their jobs and providing for their families so America can make a costly war is somehow working in the best interests of Israel. When American economic interests and Israeli interests clash then Israels interests lose. By calling Americans shameful for choosing their own interests the lobby will lose friends in Americans.

The contest is not a rerun of WW2, it is not a confrontation between a rabid dictator in control of a superpower and a defenceless people. Now there is a rabid dictator in a 3rd world slum confronting a nuclear armed, 1st world state with all weapons available. The best thing the Israel lobby can do is tell Israel to be strong on its own, to praise the strength of Israel.

11/13/2006 04:09:00 PM  
Blogger Coisty said...

skipsailing:

By the way, nothing would help us more than a giant all at the same time repudiation of white guilt.


Yet earlier skipsailing also says:
Those people here who state that losing Israel would be a blot on our souls have it right

Sounds like the same old white guilt trip rubbish again. Is it also a "blot on our souls" that so many Tutsis were massacred by Hutus or that the Rape of Nanking occurred?

Israel is the most powerful country in the region. It is not up to us in the West to provide for its defence. Bringing up the Holocaust (as if all whites are responsible for it) every time someone refuses to put Israel's interests before those of the US is no different than the examples of leftists milking white guilt provided by skipsailing.

11/13/2006 04:20:00 PM  
Blogger Habu1 said...

I ain't got no stink'in white man's guilt.

We got nuth'in to be guilty about. Not when you can find TODAY in north Africa slave trade going on etc.

One thing I've always been curious about.
If you ask an American Indian what tribe they come from, they know immediately.
If you asked the same question of a Black American there is no telling what the reaction would be. My guess is that it would be hostile, even though there are many many great tribes in Africa. Oh well perhaps someone can explain it to me. It really doesn't matter they're as American as anyone else. They've fought for this country with distinction, had great writers,poets,artist of all genre's and it it weren't for their contributions in medicine that area would be pooer for it.Hopefully we've gone beyond the slave trading/ownership days that were worldwide 300 years ago.

11/13/2006 04:22:00 PM  
Blogger skipsailing said...

well good responses all.

As for defending Israel, as I stated earlier, they are our ally. Watching the mad muslims rape and plunder Israel would be a shame on us.

that's not guilt, it's geo politics.

11/13/2006 04:50:00 PM  
Blogger lugh lampfhota said...

unaha-closp said...
"The contest is not a rerun of WW2, it is not a confrontation between a rabid dictator in control of a superpower and a defenceless people. Now there is a rabid dictator in a 3rd world slum confronting a nuclear armed, 1st world state with all weapons available."

I would beg to differ on both statements. We are appeasing a fascist regime intent on world domination that is on the path to developing or acquiring nuclear weapons. The rabid dictator(s) knows what he wants and is unafraid of using every weapon while the first world state(s) are uncertain of what they want and are terrified of the instability of using any weapon.

In this fight I'll wager on the nutcase with the bazooka.

11/13/2006 05:43:00 PM  
Blogger sam said...

Pres. Bush met with the Iraq Study Group led by ex-Sec'y of State James Baker and ex-Rep. Lee Hamilton, a Democrat. Bush said he won't prejudge the group's report due soon; some watchers hope it will help Dems and Bush bridge differences over Iraq.

Also, the U.S. Central Command chief warned Iraqi PM Nouri al-Maliki to disarm Shiite militias. Attacks killed at least 90.


Iraq Plans

11/13/2006 05:45:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

C4,
Iran's provedocfw oil reserves: 133.3 billion bbl (2005 est.)

Iran's daily use: 1.425 million bbl

I did the math. They'll be out in 256.284547 years


Your math neglects exports. Iran will be out in 30 years. But they have large uranium deposits. The Johnson/Nixon Administration and Iranians concluded their long-term energy future was nuclear power and were working towards training tens of thousands of cadres in America and siting 30 American-built nuke plants when the Islamic Revolution happened. All Iranians groups now wish to pick it up again, even the pro-American factions. Time is short.
************************
Desert Rat - While the US has no signed mutual defense pact with Israel, it is assumed there is a defacto agreement. Could the Russians or French maintain the same with Iran?

World Wars start over "assumed" unsigned de facto military alliances, or secret ones the public is unaware of and never debated in government or by the public.

It now at a very critical stage that the American public and our leaders have that debate.

1. Who would join with Iran if they were attacked by us or Israel? Russia? China? The Sunnis who might put aside religious disputes and declare a global Jihad and oil embargo? Would our support extend to waging thermonuclear war with Iran's allies?

2. What would America do if Israel killed 10 million Iranians and China or Pakistan or Russia nuked Israel in reprisal?

3. What will America - outside a lame duck Evangelical President religious beliefs - commit to if we DO decide to make a formal military pact with Israel? Would that mean we are willing to have another Iraqi war if Israeli planes show up and violate the Iraqi air space we control on behalf of the Iraqi government which DOES have a formal mutual defense treaty with Iran?

Anyone who is willing for Americans to die enmass for Israel or put America into a Depression should be willing to have a democratic debate on this and make a binding treaty approved by Congress stipulating what we will do and won't do for Israel.

This is too important to leave to White House prayer meetings or private meetings with Lobbyists.
****************************
Woman Catholic - You like to paint the Iranians as ten feet tall, but they were nearly defeated in the 1980s by the same Iraqi army we rolled over in 3 days with 600,000 troops, and 3 weeks with 250,000 troops.

Past analogies are dangerous. France conquered Vietnam with under 10,000 troops and held it for 90 years with 5,000. Japan conquered all of Indochina with an Army of 30,000.

After Iraq's attack, Iran committed to train over 10 million of it's citizens as reservists in ensuring that they would never again be so unready. They also formed fanatically devoted, well-trained militias trained in assymetric warfare tactics numbering over half a million.

No one doubts the ability of America to easily bomb out 20% of Iran's nuke program. It is the horrific casualties we would take in a ground invasion and occupation to get the other 80%, plus the devestation of the global economy from a multiyear end or drastic reduction of Gulf oil & gas, plus the uncertainty of who would align with Iran in a war for Israel --- that gives American planners heartburn.
***********************
Israel in the most powerful country in the region. It has also, through arrogance - become the "bad guy" to 178 of 181 nations at the UN. (Through it's illegal land grabs and refusal to send a cent of compensation to it's ethnic cleansing victims for 60 years. All while demanding and getting reparations from a wide range of countries and corporations and populations from "the suffering Jews endured".)

Let Israel finally accept a Final Settlement of ME Borders. To finally compensate for it's land and property thefts, subtracting what the Muslims stole in response after the 1948 War where most of the damage to Palestinian rights happened. In return for the world, including iran to accept it's existence. And defend itself. The days where it can try and use lobbyists or "Holocaust guilt trips" to make Americans put their own interests secondary to Israel's interests without an honest and open debate in American politics are coming to an end.

America, unfortunately, has been dragged into the center of ME conflict. While we are so ensnared, we must craft policies through our democratic system that put our interests 1st - not policies originating in a messianic President or foreign lobby.

And again I caution posters who dream of "a single surgical bomber strike" to objectively examine the facts. And those that argue Israel must come 1st to be honest if they are consigning America's safety and welfare to an inferior status.

11/13/2006 05:59:00 PM  
Blogger 3Case said...

So, I mostly caught up on my reading since I did the math on Iran's dire circumstance with it's measure of oil and I have to say a couple things before I sleep:

1. Habu is seriously en fuego.

2. It's not that I am a great fan of Israel (I still don't get it's creation after WWII and never forget they shot up one of our intel ships a while back) and I don't much care that all the oil is in the ME and will get expensive if the things go totally crazy, but I do think regularly that after the jihadis kill the last Jew, they'll start to killin' Scots or Scots-Canadian Americans, in my case, for something else to do. I figure that once the "I'm a failure. Let's kill a Jew." paradigm runs outta gas for lack of Jews, it'll become the "I'm a failure. Let's kill a {insert group here}." paradigm.

3. Speaking of failures, Lenin is a bad s--tstain in the underdrawers of history...him and the fat guy always associated with him who gets bigger billing. They (Lenin and the fat guy) are the evil of which Ayn Rand wrote. How can so many college professors be so enamored of him and the fat guy? THEY'RE COLLEGE PROFESSORS! They're doing their damndest to avoid work while living like pashas!!

4. As I have said before, the choice is slaughter or surrender. Let's get over the squeamishness and get to work. I've never yet met a bully who was mollified by walking away.

11/13/2006 06:05:00 PM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

skipsailing said:

As for defending Israel, as I stated earlier, they are our ally.

With friends like this who needs the Rosenbergs?

11/13/2006 06:06:00 PM  
Blogger skipsailing said...

My dear catholic woman.

First, let me say that that is an amazingly becoming wimple. Rarely have I seen the equal.

But sadly, Ma'am I find I must disagree with you. We owe Iraq everything. Why do I say such a thing Ma'am?

Well, in keeping with my earlier comment, I believe it was Colin Powell, whose race is unknown to me, that first applied the "pottery Barn rule"


Thus a man who some might consider to be black, told the majority white population of America that they had, once again, assumed the burden of guilt and noblesse oblige.

Unless Mr Powell issues a strongly worded absolution,we must, all of us, assume that everything bad in Iraq is somehow our failure.

Noblesse Oblige is, indeed, a terrible burden yet we seem to thrive despite it. I look forward, for example, to the next manned space mission.

Is this a war or a distraction?

11/13/2006 06:09:00 PM  
Blogger 3Case said...

C4,

Did I mention that I left out exports purposefully?...in order to see how hard you might be napping. Factor in exports and they've only got 93.046 years based upon proved reserves.

Did you know they are currently an exporter of electricity? 840 kWh. They also have proved reserves of natural gas of 26.62 trillion cu m (2005).

This trip through, I didn't include leap years in my math, either time.

11/13/2006 06:25:00 PM  
Blogger Ash said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

11/13/2006 07:32:00 PM  
Blogger Ash said...

skipsailing wrote:

"Watching the mad muslims rape and plunder Israel would be a shame on us.

that's not guilt, it's geo politics."

Are you trying to be funny? No, probably not. Let me point something out to you - shame has very little to do with geopolitics and a lot to do with guilt. Maybe you should look up the word "shame" in a dictionary. Once you look it up maybe you should reflect upon your thesis and then try again.

11/13/2006 07:35:00 PM  
Blogger 3Case said...

"Unless Mr Powell issues a strongly worded absolution,we must, all of us, assume that everything bad in Iraq is somehow our failure."

What?! What? What! My Father's family were (and are) Canadian. Came into the US only to take the TB cure in the Adirondacks. On my Mother's side, they were abolitionists who split with John Brown over the propriety of violence. TB got them up to the Adirondacks, too.

I've always thought the idea is there's genicidal nitwits in the weeds who need killin (the jihadis) and if we don't get to it (killin' the jihadis) quick, they'll kill us.

Does everybody forget that the original aQ concept was that the Towers were to come down BEFORE everybody got out of them and made those movie-like throngs on foot scenes out of NYC?...that the aQ objective was 25,000-50,000 dead in the rubble?

11/13/2006 07:36:00 PM  
Blogger Ash said...

Actually 3case, bin Laden himself expressed wonder that the towers fell down. They were lashing out at America and its dominance in world trade by trying to damage the towers, a sympbol. The fact that they fell down was just serendipity (or god's grace) in his eyes - hardly part of the plan.

11/13/2006 07:52:00 PM  
Blogger Cutler said...

"Kind of like how Nazi Germany was the Jews' problem."

Ain't it funny how the new Jews...are just like the old Jews.

Only this time US foreign policy is their supposed conduit for world domination. (Neo-conservatives...*hiss* *hiss*)

Pure coincidence, right.

11/13/2006 09:43:00 PM  
Blogger Cutler said...

Apparently this time they learned the benefits of outsourcing.

11/13/2006 09:46:00 PM  
Blogger Cutler said...

In spite of his glee and enthusiasm in saying it, much of what cedarford says is right. Iran is probably going to get nukes. It is also going to probably end in the destruction of Israel. Not necessarily by the Iranians (though this might happen), but owing to the subsequent Sunni-nuclearization (Saudi Arabia, Egypt, etc).

The latter is even more dangerous to US and Israeli interests than a nuclear Iran. It is even more likely to result in Al Qaeda or a similar Sunni terrorist group getting nukes themselves. Their nebulous nature destroys most of what is left of deterrence.

11/13/2006 10:08:00 PM  
Blogger Cutler said...

It also effectively fixes American policy towards making sure those weapons do not fall into the hands of third parties. More Pakistans, woohoo.

11/13/2006 10:12:00 PM  
Blogger What is "Occupation" said...

Wow, I go away for a few day and pow!

several points:

1. Israel and the war.

call me crazy but I still don't think all is as it claims to be...

hezbollah TRIED to KILL as many as possible and shot off 4,200 rockets and killed 44 people:

israel used 3-4% of their non-wmd arsenal and caused 6-9 billion in damage and set back the job situation 10-12 years.

using phased warfare israel did NOT go a rushing in as hezbollah and iran wanted, thus saving thousands of IDF casualties from ambushes that ole hezzie had spent BILLIONS preparing in advance.

Israel (and the usa) learned valuable lessons about iran and hezzies.

1. the antitank systems need to be upgraded
2. hezzie was using fiber optic command and control, not cell or radio
3, advanced russian weapons and night vision gear were in play
4. hezzie with iran’s help had cracked the idf’s armor divisions communications

Israel was selective and did not destroy Lebanon’s power grid, nor it’s water carriers, nor it’s ports or airport (bombing the runway & fuel tanks was not lethal to lebanon)

800,000 lebanese fled s lebanon, (100,000+ syrians and iranians included, and went BACK to syria.)

that being said, did israel loose the war?

they did not get the kidnapped boys back

they did not disarm hezbollah

well, from my cold hearted JEWISH AMERICAN POV let’s discuss this.

I think most israelis and american jews understand the common enemy we fight. We think the boys have been tortured, raped, decapitated and then abused further. We know the bastards we are dealing with. SO HOW BEST TO EXPRESS OUR ANGER? Cost the bastards MONEY, infrastructure and of course “well being”.

The UN states that Israel is guilty of “disproportionate response” and yet so many say israel lost. I do not think it is as clear cut. The problem has been the fault of the israelis. They are to blame. The problem is clear, the solution is clearer.

Disproportionate response to any and all attacks, period.

If you notice over the last 10 years, UN security council resolutions and general assembly resolutions condemning israel for everything from bulldozing empty homes to “destroying infrastructure” has been called a war crime by israel. (small note, i do take pride in the fact that israel is the only country in the world that can actually KILL/murder a bridge) But lately you will notice that israel has been increasing the response to any and all attacks. This is the reeducation of the arab mind aka pavlov cometh back again. Whether it is a shooting of hamas transsexual cross dressing terrorists being shielded by ugly sisters of hanan ashwari with her oversized witch moles, to shooting tank fire (accurate or inaccurate makes NO difference to me) at launching sites. Even ole Fred “on crack” Flintstone’s Nasrallah admits he was surprised by israel’s response. why because israel trained him to behave like he did. He thought well I will kidnap a few jews and murder another dozen, then I will trade them for some cash, prisoners and dvd collections of bay watch. israel did not play by the rules!

but the rules have changed, shoot at a jew, get shot back at with a better weapon, and hopefully you will die.

restated: shoot at a jew, you, your mother and your butt ugly sister will be killed, don't shoot at jews? DON'T GET SHOT AT, sounds fair.

ok, more thoughts...

I love C4, he see a jew under every bed, in his closet, in his wife’s panties, in his son’s ass. The jew is a warrior beyond all warriors. C4 has shown me how us pasty skinned torahheads are actually buff male versions of buffy the vampire slayer! who knew i was 6 feet tall with tight Arabs and a schlong that would make shaq jealous? (please someone tell my wife PLEASE) That being said he makes some lovely points. Some correct and of course some bullshit.

Cedarford said...

1. We have no defense treaty with Israel. Something the people who claim we must fight Israel's fights conveniently forget.

israel’s public policy is and always has been that she wants NO americans to fight any battles for her. All she wants and needs is material support, not an amazing point since as C4 states most of the world doesn't support israel nor her rights as a nation


Cedarford said...

2. Israel will not let 97% of Americans own property there, be buried there, or become citizens due to our religious beliefs.

Americans can and do own lands in Israel. Christian Americans do become citizens of the state of israel. and yes some are buried there. And just for the POINT 97% of americans can barely afford to be buried HERE in the USA.

btw what arab country allows US christian citizens to own land in their countries (israel is 1/650th of the middle east)


Cedarford said...
Fixed Borders, big fences, and lots of money to the Palestinians for lands and property thieved from them.

but then corrects himself:
Let Israel finally accept a Final Settlement of ME Borders. To finally compensate for it's land and property thefts, subtracting what the Muslims stole in response after the 1948 War where most of the damage to Palestinian rights happened.

Israel accepted the UN partition in 1948, the arabs did not

Israel had no territorial claim to gaza or the west bank AND jordan and egypt controlled them from 1948-1967, and if you remember history after 1967 israel offered the lands back as part of a peace deal, the arabs DID response with the big 3 no’s : no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations with it

Israel then agreed to the land for peace concept, and yes i do know they BUILT homes, just like the palestinians did in the disputed lands of the west bank, however the arabs NEVER stopped terrorism

then there was the barak offer, and yes it was not perfect but it was damn close and what was the arab response?

war

Now C4 thinks the arab world and iran are looking for a “just settlement”, just give the land and cash, and of course right of return. and Push both sides to settle.

nice weed C4, can i have some?

Funny Olmert comes to america and says he still wants to give up 90% of the west bank to the terrorist palestinians, funny I don't remember seeing any arab leader making any compromise at all, unless it is admitting israel exists. wow, israel exists.... oh that’s right, the democratic elected palestinians don't recognize israel’s right to be a state..

oh well

But back to the situation.

Hamas, Moslem brotherhood, fatah, hezbollah, assad/syria/golan, iran, iraq

we all KNOW that a good 45% of the shit in iraq is fueled by iran

we all know that a good 65% of the shit in lebanon is fueled by iran

we all know that a good 30% of the shit in hamas is fueled by iran

we all know that a good 50% of the shit in syria is fueled by iran

that being said...

Israel took out all long range and most medium range missiles in the 1st 2 days of the “skirmish”

before the “skirmish” iran was using hezbollah as a trump card, don't touch us or we will have ole hezzie burn 1/2 of israel, as soon as that was over, iran now says, if the usa or israel touches us we will use long range missiles on israel. (then they have their “military exercises”)

the interesting fact” hezbollah SHOT THEIR WAD and guess what? they SUCK. they were TRYING to murder israelis and could only murder 44 using 4000 rockets!!!

So what is going to happen? who knows, but I bet it’s going to be something aggressive from our islamonut job friends.

I could see another strike on lebanon that this time goes after high value targets including power, water, and major portions of symbolic targets

i could see 500 syrian tanks burning, a whole lot of rusting syrian/russian metal decaying in the flat open dessert sun.

I could see iranian gasoline IMPORTS being blockaded.

I could see mysterious explosions in the iranian refineries

I could see mysterious power grid failures in iran

the arab world could care less about it’s children, as nasser once said, we will defeat the jews, if it takes 7 million arabs to kill them, it’s ok, we have 110,000,000 more

so how to “hurt” the arab world?

HUMILIATE them....

BOMB their fancy plazas, destroy their infrastructure, don't do genocide on them, just reduce the quality of their lives to that of gaza.

just some thoughts

11/13/2006 10:56:00 PM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

cutler said:

It is even more likely to result in Al Qaeda or a similar Sunni terrorist group getting nukes themselves. Their nebulous nature destroys most of what is left of deterrence.

As long as the GPS coordinates of the Kaaba in Mecca are known, they will be deterred. The last thing the Muslims want is proof that Allah can't even protect his black cube thingie.

11/14/2006 06:29:00 AM  
Blogger Habu1 said...

Wretchard...
Time to change the linen on the thread. You got big ole critters all over the "current" one.

11/14/2006 07:27:00 AM  
Blogger slimslowslider said...

who here thinks we fought the Germans to save the Jews? The Sacrifice of the jews gave us great moral high ground (and some may argue that is why we didn't put more effort into stopping the camps). We didn't enter the war and sacrifice our citizen soldiers to save jews as someone would try to have you believe on TBC. The real reasons we entered the war had almost nothing to do with saving anyone except us which is fine with me except now we are a super power and to a certain extent have helped to create the monster that Iran is in the process of becoming. We all can say that back then we didn't know what kind of monster hitler was going to be until it was almost too late, now the writing is obviously on the wall and if it happens again we will have no right to any moral grounds.

11/14/2006 07:27:00 AM  
Blogger Habu1 said...

wO/T Ash,thought I'd throw in some advice for ya. Your mincing pusillanemous style doesn't lend itself to you using the phrase "blowback".
Conjures up some ugly images, but if you can choke it down just keep it up for your friends anyway.

11/14/2006 07:58:00 AM  
Blogger Habu1 said...

O/T Ash,thought I'd throw in some advice for ya. Your mincing pusillanemous style doesn't lend itself to you using the phrase "blowback".
Conjures up some ugly images, but if you can choke it down just keep it up for your friends anyway.

11/14/2006 07:59:00 AM  
Blogger Barry Meislin said...

Moral ground?

Who's talking about moral ground?

We're talking Realism. In 1938, Czechoslovakia was sacrificed for Peace---and that worked out pretty well.

For about a year.

And if the Brits hadn't dragged France into honoring agreements, Peace would have lasted a few years longer.

Maybe....

Honor. Heh. But we're talking Realism. In which case, throw Israel to the wolves---sorry! "Let Israel fend for itself" (really, now?)---and then hope for the best. "We don't have a treaty with 'em anyway."

(And scads of stout-hearted, high-minded, right-thinking folks will sure be happy, that is, if it works out the way they'd like it to.... But will they be sated? is another question entirely.)

Still, whatever happens, you won't be able to say that the West didn't go that extra mile for Peace In Our Time.

11/14/2006 08:15:00 AM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

what is occupation said:

BOMB their fancy plazas, destroy their infrastructure, don't do genocide on them, just reduce the quality of their lives to that of gaza.

Which amounts to a 10% reduction in their quality of lives. Sorry, but going after material goods only works in the decadent West.

11/14/2006 08:19:00 AM  
Blogger slimslowslider said...

Moral grounds effects our ability to fight long brutal wars successfully. It is an intangible that helps to form a cohesive unit which is essential in combat and acts as a force multiplyer (the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts). I think WWII was fought with a certain Christian zeal to match and overpower our equally trained and armed enemies.

11/14/2006 08:47:00 AM  
Blogger skipsailing said...

so, let's kill the goats and rain destruction on the chick pea crop, eh?

Makes sense to me.

11/14/2006 08:48:00 AM  
Blogger 3Case said...

"...there's genicidal nitwits in the weeds who need killin (the jihadis) and if we don't get to it (killin' the jihadis) quick, they'll kill us."

Alright, so I misspelled genocidal; the "i" and "o" are next to each other. Shoulda proofed better.

As to ObL's surprise re: WTC fall, I don't buy it. Guys smart, considered and audacious enough to pull that op (WTC) off, IMO, ALSOthought through what would happen with all that jet fuel ablaze inside those buildings. I'm reading "The Looming Tower" at the moment and Zawahiri (a/k/a the munchkin Egyptian homicidal maniac) is WAY smart.

11/14/2006 08:53:00 AM  
Blogger slimslowslider said...

3Case said...
you may be very right. "Shock & Awe" may wind up being our reaction should we ever find out contrary to our intellegence how far along Iran really is.

11/14/2006 09:11:00 AM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

slimslowslider wrote:

I think WWII was fought with a certain Christian zeal to match and overpower our equally trained and armed enemies.

The Barbary pirates took twice as many enslaved Europeans to North Africa as black slaves taken to the colonies/US. We could see it happen again.

11/14/2006 09:34:00 AM  
Blogger charlotte said...

This is reassuring that a religious person upthread said:

“As long as the GPS coordinates of the Kaaba in Mecca are known, they will be deterred. The last thing the Muslims want is proof that Allah can't even protect his black cube thingie.”

IOW, we never needed to worry about Saddams’s WMD, nor that of the Libyans and certainly not about nukes in Paki extremists’ hands or about Khans’ proliferation, nor about Iranian nuke bombs to come and also half dozen other Muslim countries in the years ahead.

We know where the Kaaba is, and they know we know, and so we can rest certain that Muslim states, Islamist terrorists and their allies will never commit WMD mass murder and inhumane atrocity against Westerners. Since Islam would be discredited were the “black thingie” to be destroyed by infidels, radical Muslims will just stick to flying planes into skyscrapers, blowing up subways, planting roadside IEDs in Iraq, taping a few beheading videos, pushing Israel to the sea, and not upsetting us too much, yes?

Well, thank Allah. Now, the IAEA need only worry about Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish and French countries and their terror agents.

11/14/2006 09:42:00 AM  
Blogger Alan Sullivan said...

Here's a parody of that Yeats poem, The Second Coming:

The UN’s Coming

Turning and turning in the vulcanized tire,
The victim cannot hear the necklacers;
Things fall apart, the ceasefire cannot hold;
Mere terrorists are loosed upon the world,
The kleptocrats are loosed, and everywhere
The properties of innocents are bound.
The best lack aspirations, while the worst
Are full of passionate asperity.

Surely some secretariat is at hand;
Surely the UN’s coming is at hand.
The UN’s coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of cinema verite
Troubles my sight. Somewhere in sands of the desert,
A shape with Saddam’s body and the head of Annan,
A glaze bleak and pitiless as the moon,
Is loading its RPGs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the Coalition’s drones.
The curtain drops again, but now I know
That half a century of sullen sleep
Was vexed to nightmare by a bunker buster.
And what rough beast, its charter shorn at last,
Slouches toward Turtle Bay to be born?

11/14/2006 09:49:00 AM  
Blogger Habu1 said...

i think we should just drop vienna sausage on the black thingy. tons of it and maybe some pigs feet and heads....but no they might hate us.

11/14/2006 09:51:00 AM  
Blogger Habu1 said...

The Kaaba is located at approximately 21°25′21.15″N, 39°49′34.1″E.

Pigs away!!!!

11/14/2006 09:54:00 AM  
Blogger charlotte said...

No, no, no, Habu. The black stone remaining intact is The Deterrent.

11/14/2006 09:58:00 AM  
Blogger Habu1 said...

my hear'n ain't so good..did you say the blacks thingy needs detergent?

and wahts wrong with using vienna sausage, it's the other meat by-product.

oh decurrent, we don't need no stink'n decurrent, i say hose 'em down

11/14/2006 10:04:00 AM  
Blogger charlotte said...

Alan, your Yeats was really well done!

11/14/2006 10:13:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

second that--loved it.

11/14/2006 10:18:00 AM  
Blogger Habu1 said...

Oh now I got my spectacles on I can hear better.

Deterrant....so we don't want to hurt folks that want to hurt us?

I be confused.
I had a neighbor one time, way back, who had this here mean ole dog. The dog done killed my chickens and a young peterfore.
So I told my neighbor that I was gonna kill that dog. And I did.
Now you'll have to make out of the story what you can. I just wanted to fit in a story about an ole mean dog.
small mean dogs ain't too bad but iff'n they git thigh high yoooou betta watch'em up close. First thing is they go to sniffin in all the wrong places....bad dogs dem thigh highers..usually only the short hairs...who wouldn't wanna be sniffed by a golden retriever? here's a picture.
PIC

11/14/2006 10:19:00 AM  
Blogger Eggplant said...

Catherine said...

"No, no, no, Habu. The black stone remaining intact is The Deterrent."

The Kaaba stone is probably a common iron-nickel meteorite. If an iron-nickel meteorite is sliced flat and the surface etched with a diluted nitric acid solution, it'll form a very pretty Widmanstätten pattern. In the not too distant future, I forsee a new type of US military decoration or campaign medal based upon a sliced iron-nickel meteorite.

11/14/2006 10:22:00 AM  
Blogger charlotte said...

Egglant,

My point was that someone here brilliantly claims its (intact) existence is the reason we need not worry about Islamists nuking us.

So no worries, mate. Unless you want Muslims really mad at us and nuking our cities, we should dispatch our servicemen over to Mecca to protect it.

11/14/2006 10:34:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

well, the new crew in DC is planning on leasing the Pentagon to the bin Laden/Putin consortium, anyway, so that we can all get busy on issues that affect the American people. The new Sony Playstation is out, sold out in minutes, I hear.

11/14/2006 10:41:00 AM  
Blogger charlotte said...

Buddy,

The insular Pentagon could use more diversification, falafels and borscht. The only hitch will be the proscription against alcohol versus mandated vodka throughout the day.

My hope is that Dems get to the real business of the people by raising our taxes and then rationing our healthcare. The inquisitions to come are just a bonus.

11/14/2006 10:59:00 AM  
Blogger Eggplant said...

Catherine,

Actually the iron nickel from the Kaaba stone would probably be a poor raw material for military decorations because it'll soon become radioactive.

Isn't it idiotic that we're all walking off this cliff together with open eyes?. Are we human beings or lemmings?

Yeah, she'll be right, mate...

11/14/2006 11:06:00 AM  
Blogger Habu1 said...

VDH in part:

Averse as we are to accepting the tragic consequences that always attend the use of force, we indulge the therapeutic illusion that all conflict can be resolved not by force but by negotiation, talk, and concessions. We can’t get it into our heads that there are people driven by spiritual imperatives that cannot be bargained or negotiated away. Only force will convince such people to abandon their aims. But force is messy, unpredictable, sometimes brutal and indiscriminate, as every war ever fought teaches us. Yet we cannot accept that tragic truth, and so put constraints on our use of force that cripples us in our fight against an enemy who recognizes no restraints whatsoever.
VDH

11/14/2006 11:10:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Ah, those glory days of Carternomics. Wonder if I can still do the "Disco Duck"?

11/14/2006 11:12:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

This time around, Saturday Night Fever 'll probly be an actual 'fever'.

11/14/2006 11:14:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Update Carter, quick. Presidentr Mayonnaise said "We have an inordinate fear of Communism". President Hillary can say, "We have an inordinate fear of the collapse of western civilization".

11/14/2006 11:18:00 AM  
Blogger charlotte said...

Why does WaPo even bother reporting the following when Iranian nuclearization is not a problem for us and Israel as long as the Kabaa is whole?

“VIENNA, Austria -- International Atomic Energy experts have found unexplained plutonium and highly enriched uranium traces in a nuclear waste facility in Iran and have asked Tehran for an explanation, an IAEA report said Tuesday…

“Earlier Tuesday, President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said Tuesday that Iran would soon celebrate completion of its nuclear fuel program and claimed the international community was ready to accept it as a nuclear state…

“Russia, which is backed by China, opposes tough action advocated by the U.S., Britain and France, and its amendments to a Western draft resolution would reduce sanctions and delete language that would cut off Iran's access to foreign missile technology.”

Meanwhile, the Dems are already poised to make us a stronger nation. From the OpinionJournal today:

“That was fast. A mere two days after Democrats capture Congress claiming they wouldn't raise taxes, former Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin tells them they should do so anyway…

The Citigroup Inc. executive [Mr. Rubin] is part of Hillary Rodham Clinton's braintrust, and he and she would like nothing better than to coax Mr. Bush into raising taxes in the next two years. That would take the tax issue off the table in 2008, while splintering Republicans the way President George H.W. Bush's tax-hike deal with George Mitchell did going into 1992.

“And if a tax increase did contribute to a severe slowdown or recession, Republicans as the incumbent party in the White House would get the political blame.”

Eggplant, we be lemmings rushing to the edge, all right.

11/14/2006 11:28:00 AM  
Blogger Ash said...

Nobody likes paying taxes, less is always better but how do you figure we should deal with our budget problems? Should we cut expenses as opposed to increase taxes? We don't have a lot of room to cut discretionary spending...the military looks like a place where cuts should be made - how about there? Or should we just keep spending and borrowing in your opinion - debt is no problem?

11/14/2006 11:35:00 AM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

ash said:

Nobody likes paying taxes, less is always better but how do you figure we should deal with our budget problems?

Do what every American woman does when she balances the family budget, reduce expenses until they match or fall below income. Pay off the debt. Then you don't have the nut of a huge interest payment to make, which acts as a sinkhole for a large chunk of the budget.

11/14/2006 11:39:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

The problem is, we've been too safe, too prosperous, too soft, too long.

Mother Nature's harsh fix for dat is rising around us like the seas in Al Gore's wet dream.

11/14/2006 11:40:00 AM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

eggplant

Isn't it idiotic that we're all walking off this cliff together with open eyes?. Are we human beings or lemmings?

People who believe that urban legend about lemmings are themselves lemming-like.

11/14/2006 11:43:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Ash, federal tax recpts have been climbing @ 12%/yr since the tax cuts.

Raising taxes to cure overspending is like your drug problem being, you don't have enough drugs.

11/14/2006 11:44:00 AM  
Blogger 3Case said...

"...were the “black thingie” to be destroyed by infidels...."

It would not be "destroyed", it would be vaporized.

VDH is far more eloquent than my "get over the squeamishness and get to the slaughter" riff. He puts the fanaticism of the jihadis well, also. Last I knew there is only one way to deprogram a fanatic...perhaps Janet Reno could advise DoD....

11/14/2006 11:45:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Ok, how bout the Pied Piper of Hamelein? He didn't really pipe the rats out of, uh, Hamelein?

11/14/2006 11:46:00 AM  
Blogger charlotte said...

People who believe that urban legend about lemmings are themselves lemming-like.

Info almost as helpful as telling us we're safe from Islamists nukes, because the Kaaba deters Muslim radicals from mass-murdering us on a WMD scale (just not a 9-11 one.)

11/14/2006 11:51:00 AM  
Blogger PossumTater said...

Buddy,
AlGore doesn't have that much throughput.

Bonus coverage: ADULT ONLY

BONUS

11/14/2006 11:53:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Solution, a UNICEF Adopt-a-Jihadi program. We all step up to the plate and buy a jihadi a Sony Playstation.
No, think about it.

11/14/2006 11:55:00 AM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

VIENNA, Austria — Experts from the International Atomic Energy Agency have found unexplained plutonium and enriched uranium traces in a nuclear waste facility in Iran and have asked Tehran for an explanation, an IAEA report said Tuesday."

Golly, how'd that stuff get there?

11/14/2006 11:59:00 AM  
Blogger Ash said...

buddy,

There are many reasons for federal tax receipts to increase. If one were to pursue the lower taxes = more fed tax receipts to its logical conclusion 0 taxes would equal an even larger increase in tax receipts which is obviously false.

Obviously no one wants to pay more taxes but the reality of budgeting is either increase taxes to cover shortfall, cut spending to eliminate shortfall, or borrow to cover shortfall. We can't just borrow forever, at some point the piper must be paid. Hard decisions confront us and jingoistic lower taxes = more revenue doesn't help deal with the problems.

11/14/2006 12:04:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

granted, Ash, the mix is the thing. You could turn your logical conclusion around, too, and ask if the government owning all the means of production guarantees a worker's paradise. Why, it sho do, on paper!

The piper that needs to be paid includes such things as retirement plans and pension funds.

Bork the economy and see how well all those "little person" safety nets do.

Big Dems don't care, they like for their Soc Sec program to be the only game in town.

Even tho it itself is gonna kill us.

But, go ahead, bump up the marginal rates on the top few %, if that's what comity requires.

But here's where your 'tax the rich' runs into a revenue problem: already, 1% pays 36% of the taxes, and 50% pay 3.4% of the taxes.

So, what you tink is gonna keep us growing, with low inflation, interest rates, and unemployment?

Have you ever looked at our "onerous debt" as a percentage of our output, or assets? And compared it to history?

Ever entertained the Eco 101 notion that, as our population and output grows, so grows our financing costs (AKA "debt")?

11/14/2006 12:22:00 PM  
Blogger Dave H said...

Woman catholic, you have a poor grasp of the meaning of the term "destroy their infrastructure", that is the sum total of what it takes to take them all the way back to the 7th century. As far as I am concerned it would be a most suitable place for the 20-25% that would survive to live. Destroy all electric power stations, roads, bridges, refineries (sort of redundant) probably the transportation and ellectric power grids are sufficient.

If they are prevented from importing people to fix this mess, this fix is permanent. It cannot be done in a simple surgical strike, it would be necessary to destroy their air defense systems first and their navy, might take a couple of months.

It won't happen because the current administration lacks the stones and is unwilling to face the economic consequences, like $20/gallon gasoline to use the simplest example.

11/14/2006 12:25:00 PM  
Blogger charlotte said...

Hard decisions confront us and jingoistic lower taxes = more revenue doesn't help deal with the problems.

Ash,

You don't see the real problems, do you, even on a thread about an arming, menacing Hezbollah? The Dems will raise taxes for all the wrong reasons, believing we need universal health care administered by bureaucracy, more PC entitlements, and to fix global warming for the world.

By and large, Dems tell us our fears of Islamist terrorism or nukes or oil blackmail or industrial/tech espionage, etc. are overwrought. And that, anyway, the UN can handle world problems, (except for "rogue, disproportionate response" Israel who refuses to get with the program of becoming a passive target.)

11/14/2006 12:36:00 PM  
Blogger Ash said...

buddy,

certainly the current demographic trend is working against us vis a vis social security ect. Just letting the poor old folks suffer is not a pleasant prospect though and the 'rich' do have more fleece which can be shorn. Will the expiry of the Bush tax cuts hinder innovation and risk taking? I dunno. Ideally we would just grow out of our problems but that's a long shot, but politically expediant. Second choioce would be to cut expenses as WC recommended but hard choices would have to be made there - Military - Entitlements - Pork (relatively lean pickings there). Heck, hard choices abound everywhere and our politcal system isn't to adept at making hard decisions....

11/14/2006 12:39:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

cat, shhh--don't tell 'em. Let's let Dems be Dems, maybe Doofus Americanus will re-recognize them before TEOTWAWKI becomes inevitable in November 2008.

11/14/2006 12:42:00 PM  
Blogger Ash said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

11/14/2006 12:44:00 PM  

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