Monday, August 21, 2006

A Voice of Their Own

The Guardian describes the tide of young Muslim men coming to see an unnamed "prophet" in East London. It recalls if nothing else scenes from Christianity's apostolic age. It features a man discoursing in an exotic language simultaneously translated into many tongues for eager listeners. The gathering is thronged by a crowd from all walks of life, eager to start a pilgrimage about which little is known -- except that salvation lies at the end of it. Men who would never have acknowledged each other socially gather and share a makeshift meal together. This is radical Islam in the heart of the West.

Thousands of young Muslim men are attending meetings in east London every week run by a fundamentalist Islamic movement [Tablighi Jamaat] believed by western intelligence agencies to be used as a fertile recruiting ground by extremists. ... The organisation - influenced by a branch of Saudi Arabian Islam known as Wahhabism - has already been linked to two of the July 7 suicide bombers ... The jailed shoe bomber Richard Reid is also known to have attended Tablighi meetings. ...

one person spoke admiringly about the "main man" ... "We can't call him a prophet," he said. "No one can be a prophet. But when you meet him you'll realize. He's helped a lot of people in Walthamstow to follow the right path, the path of the prophet. He'll talk to you openly this evening and everything will make sense." ...

The largest room was reserved for the main speaker, an elder from Preston who spoke in Urdu. His sermon was relayed through a microphone to five other rooms in which interpreters provided simultaneous translation into English, Arabic, Sinhala, Turkish and Somali.

The English-speaking room heaved as a sea of faces, white, black and Asian, spilled into the hallway. Most were teenagers and men in their 20s and 30s dressed in Islamic dress, caps and beards. Some came in suits and ties, others in jeans and hoodies. There were old men too, who weaved slowly through to the front of the room, and a few young boys.

After an hour the preacher concluded with a call for followers to join the effort and commit to a trip away. "We must leave our houses, our businesses, our families, for a short period of time, and follow the path of Allah and practise the ways of the prophet, going from mosque to mosque," said the interpreter. "Then [the behaviour] will become second nature to us. We shall go to India and Pakistan for four months to follow these ways."

What Tablighi followers call "the effort" - travelling around the country for three days or 10 days, depending on their level of commitment - is key to the organization. Once they have completed the first stage, they may undertake a 40-day trip, which is likely to entail travel around Europe. ...

A former body builder showed pictures on his mobile of the "pumped-up gym fanatic" he used to be. After spells in prison, he said, he went on a life-changing four-month trip to Pakistan. "I went to places you wouldn't believe," he said. "There are people in Pakistan and India who know less about the prophet than people in east London."

Across town in posher part of London, Jenni Murray, presenter of BBC Radio 4's Woman's Hour is finalizing plans to kill herself when she gets seriously sick.

She is sealing a pact with two friends that they will assist each other to die if any of them is diagnosed with a debilitating and incurable illness. Methods they might use include injections or smothering with a pillow. This is despite a law outlawing assisted suicide, which Murray says is sustained by a religious minority. ...

Publicity material for the show says that Murray "does not want to look after her sick and aging mother, and plans to end her own life when she becomes a burden to those around her". The network said: "Jenni is angry that, having fought so hard to become liberated and independent, women are now being trapped into caring for dependent parents."

The contrast between the expectant, almost ecstatic Muslim gathering and sour bleakness of a middle-aged BBC presenter arranging her own suicide is striking. Where one sees the glimmer of life even in hardship and death, the other delivers a final judgment on the meaning of postmodern life: a pillow over the face in a musty room after the last glass of wine. Who thought that radical Islam stood no chance against postmodern glitter did not know Islam. Churchill knew it and said "were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science -- the science against which it had vainly struggled -- the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome."  TE Lawrence understood  Islam even better. He knew the Arabs as masters of myth.

Their largest manufacture was of creeds: almost they were monopolists of revealed religions. Three of these efforts had endured among them: two of the three had also borne export (in modified forms) to non-Semitic peoples. Christianity, translated into the diverse spirits of Greek and Latin and Teutonic tongues, had conquered Europe and America. Islam in various transformations was subjecting Africa and parts of Asia. These were Semitic successes. Their failures they kept to themselves. The fringes of their deserts were strewn with broken faiths.

Lawrence, had he lived another half century, would have seen Europe not only relegate its one Semitic faith to the museum and the other to the -- well -- and install its own shoddy and broken Marxist manufacture in the official pantheon where its gangrenous influence would suffuse everything. And against Islam, a dynamic creed which could make inroads even against Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism and Hinduism, the West's broken postmodern idols were not even in the same weight class. Ben Stein, writing in the New York Times sensed that against the immaterial tide weapons alone would not avail.

Can it possibly be that Hezbollah is better motivated, better led, better dug in and better armed than the Israeli army, which is supposed to be the best army, pound for pound, in the world? ... If Israel cannot get it together to fight a serious war against a group, Hezbollah, that the State Department identifies as a terrorist organization, who will? ... Now, who’s fighting for us in the fight of our lives? Brave, idealistic Southerners. Hispanics from New Mexico. Rural men and women from upstate New York. Small-town boys and girls from the Midwest. Do the children of the powers on Wall Street resign to go off and fight? Fight for the system that made them rich? Fight for the way of life that made them princes? Surely, you jest. ...

What stands between us and the iceberg are the miraculously brave men and women of the armed forces. They’re heroes and saints as far as I’m concerned. But can they do it without the rest of us? Can they do it while we’re all working on our tans and trying to have our taxes lowered again? How can we leave them out there all alone to die for us when we treat the war to save civilization as something we can just wish away?

Ben Stein's key insight, one which he unfortunately does not pursue, is that while liberalism is willing to leave anyone "out there all alone to die" at the sign of the first inconvenience, there are components of the West -- and the non-Muslim world -- willing to stand in front of the iceberg. And the willingness to resist tyranny grows proportionately to the cultural distance from liberalism. Yet liberalism has and continues to set the West's agenda in the fight against Islamic fascism. Given that the key activity in Osama Bin Laden's campaign so far has been about creating and manipulating identities; I hope to address two issues in the coming posts. First, can the resistant parts of the West create a consciousness explicitly opposed Islamic fascism? And if so, can this identity of resistance wrest the Western agenda from liberalism?

Outside the Tablighi Jamaat's mosque there are ordinary men for whom a glass of wine and suffocation are not the goal of life. They are pilgrims too, but they gather in the cultural shadows, heeding neither Mohammed nor the high priests of liberal culture. They have no banner, though they will find one.

And how beguile you? Death has no repose
Warmer and deeper than the Orient sand
Which hides the beauty and bright faith of those
Who make the Golden Journey to Samarkand.

But who are ye in rags and rotten shoes,
You dirty-bearded, blocking up the way?

We are the Pilgrims, master; we shall go
Always a little further: it may be
Beyond the last blue mountain barred with snow,
Across that angry or that glimmering sea,
White on a throne or guarded in a cave
There lives a prophet who can understand
Why men were born: but surely we are brave,
Who make the Golden Journey to Samarkand.


Blogger 2164th said...

The sixties generation brought us to this point, and until the elitist minority is expunged, nothing will change fast enough except by the serendipitous event, probably a dramatic terror attack. Then it will end in the same way as the Berlin Wall fell, a spontaneous unforeseen event will finally cause people to take off the blinders and the gloves. Islam will be escorted, by the scruff of the neck, out of Europe and the West. I can feel it, taste it, and smell it. Onward Christian soldiers.

8/21/2006 07:37:00 AM  
Blogger Sonspot said...

In the late 80's, freshly out of high school I went to England for the first timeto see some family. One of places I toured was "speakers corner" in London. There was an old christian preacher there that stood on a box and evangelized while people stood around hurling insults at him.

There was another, much larger gathering there too. Full of stern looking men silently listening to their imam. No one hurled insults at him. His "sermon was so angry towards America that I became concerned for my safety because I was wearing a USS carl Vincent cap.

Islam, if the religon itself is to be our enemy, is a great enemy indeed.

8/21/2006 07:37:00 AM  
Blogger soflauthor said...

Is it possible that Malcolm Gladwell’s epidemiological view of change can be applied to the apparent rush to radical Islam by tens of thousands (millions?) of otherwise westernized Islamic youth? Is what Wretchard has described in this post a harbinger of a “tipping point?”

Gladwell describes his ideas:

"One of the things I explore in the book is that ideas can be contagious in exactly the same way that a virus is. One chapter, for example, deals with the very strange epidemic of teenage suicide in the South Pacific islands of Micronesia. In the 1970's and 1980's, Micronesia had teen suicide rates ten times higher than anywhere else in the world. Teenagers were literally being infected with the suicide bug, and one after another they were killing themselves in exactly the same way under exactly the same circumstances. We like to use words like contagiousness and infectiousness just to apply to the medical realm. But I assure you that after you read about what happened in Micronesia you'll be convinced that behavior can be transmitted from one person to another as easily as the flu or the measles can. In fact, I don't think you have to go to Micronesia to see this pattern in action. Isn't this the explanation for the current epidemic of teen smoking in this country? And what about the rash of mass shootings we're facing at the moment--from Columbine through the Atlanta stockbroker through the neo-Nazi in Los Angeles?"

I can only surmise that this is what is happening within Islam, aided by infectious agents (Immans) and mass media examples (“martyrs”).

If this is the case, if we've reaching the tipping point with radical Islam, I’m not sure we can stop it. We can only hope that like many viruses, it ultimately kills its host.

8/21/2006 07:41:00 AM  
Blogger PeterBoston said...

I think the public is far ahead of the democracies' political leadership on the desire, and the need, to rip the destructive elements out of the body politic. Without regard to or consideration of consequences, a person who stands on a street in London with a sign praising Hezbollah or jihad is an enemy of the state and should be dealt with as such. Who would feel lessened if the muslim cleric exhorting the death of your daughter had his head exploded?

What we wish for is a deus ex machina. A shadow group of ruthless men able and willing to crush the bodies and the spirit of these muslim pilgrims wherever they find them. Somebody else to do what we will not.

8/21/2006 07:58:00 AM  
Blogger CatoRenasci said...

Your post provokes thought - the very best sense of the word 'provacative.'

You write: First, can the resistant parts of the West create a consciousness explicitly opposed [to]Islamic fascism? And if so, can this identity of resistance wrest the Western agenda from liberalism?

There is a fair argument to be made such a consciousness already exists - at least in naescent form - in the core of classical liberalism: the commitment to individual liberty and empiricism (at least to the extent of accepting modern science) based on the American and British enlightenments fused with the sort of muscular - if not doctrinally rigid and accepting of Judaism as a partner - Christianity.

This was the consciousness, broadly, with which the West fought the Second World War and the Cold War.

It remains, I think, at the heart of the worldview of the vast majority of Americans who were either educated before about 1970-75, and those who don't follow cultural and intellectual fashion.

Is this enough? I'm uncertain, but I'd like to think so. It worked before. The assault on this worldview from the left was at least as strong before WWII as it is now, but it was not institutionalized in our own universities and elites as it has become.

I think the one place something like that worldview dominates within our institutions is the military - at least our officer corps.

The more difficult question is whether or not it can regain control of the Western agenda. Certainly, the elite media, much of the political class (at least to the left of center), the cultural elite, the universities and probably a majority of the graduates of the elite colleges and universiteis in the past 25-30 years, do not share it.

The rise of alternative media - both talk radio and the blogosphere - have granted proponents of something like this classical liberalism plus the ability to be heard, as they were not during the period of the domination of the national media.

As an aside, we often forget that the national media was a phenomenon of the mid-20th century. It was not until the rise of national magazines, and the advent of radio that everyone in the country could hear the same ideas from the same writers and thinkers at almost the same time. Before that, papers and magazines were more local, and the voices more varied.

With the growth of national media, the voices were more and more limited because the price of entry into the market increased dramatically. Where it was not prohbitively expensive to start a local newspaper in 1880, to start a national magazine, or radio network or later television network (or even local stations that had 24/7 or almost 24/7 content) became very expensive, limiting entry of new competitors into the market.

That's changed now, but, ironically, the large mass of people whose worldview is probably closest to being one that could successfully combat Islamic fascism are those who still rely on the mainstream left-wing media.

8/21/2006 08:03:00 AM  
Blogger Faeroe said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

8/21/2006 08:04:00 AM  
Blogger Novangli said...

"The Effort" is a trite and covenient English translation for the Arabic word "Jihad". Misleading, no?

8/21/2006 08:07:00 AM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

peterboston wrote:

What we wish for is a deus ex machina. A shadow group of ruthless men able and willing to crush the bodies and the spirit of these muslim pilgrims wherever they find them. Somebody else to do what we will not.

Something like what we did here after far less provocation.

8/21/2006 08:11:00 AM  
Blogger Faeroe said...

I give you John Kerry: "I'm concerned that [Lieberman] is making a Republican case." ABC News' "This Week with George Stephanopoulos".

Kerry accused the 2000 Democratic vice presidential candidate of "adopting the rhetoric of Dick Cheney," on the issue of Iraq.

It isn't the rhetoric that Kerry is opposed to, it is the position. Kerry, as perfect an avatar of the post-modern West as I can imagine, is a shepherd of the entropic movement that wants us all to drink the wine. Heck, he'll make it easy, with the government, read your dollars, to pay for it.

What he objects to most vehemently, it seems, is that our ('us' being both too broad and too difuse to accurately label) effort in Iraq, just as those here at home, to show that there is more to live for than the uber-hedonism Kerry so effortlessly embodies.

The sin Lieberman commits in the eyes of the Church of the Left, is that he does not accept going quietly, or speedily, to the grave.

Lieberman has a creed of survival that is in direct opposition to the romanticism of death that suffuses the Left and Kerry's deepest motivations.

Kerry and the Left worship at the sacrifical alter, while Lieberman and we who fight, fight in recognition that we must deny ourselves such nihilstic, onanistic pleasure in order to create a world that grows and fosters transcendance beyond our mere existence.

8/21/2006 08:14:00 AM  
Blogger rhhardin said...

``Postmodern'' is too broad, or wrongly stereotyped.

Here's Derrida on terrorism, neatly destroying every argument on the left

Postmodernism is as forward-looking as anything.

I'd distinguish it from the National Public Radio or academic form, which likes the sound but doesn't quite get the point.

8/21/2006 08:15:00 AM  
Blogger Dewage said...

The young muslims are looking for their new Christ. In my personal experience, if you look for something, you usually find it.

The western liberals, caught up in the guilt of their post-modern creature comforts, but lacking the spine to cast-off their materialism, are looking for punishment.

Who among us are the most likely to stand up and fight for the future of out country? Why, look! It's the young Protestants who believe they can change their lives here on earth for the better.

And they say it's not a religous war...

8/21/2006 08:20:00 AM  
Blogger epictetus said...

President Bush just finished his press conference. This Club has proven quite good at pointing out his many failures. I will say this though, I think he is trying to do what is most in the country's long-term interest as best as he knows how. He is not focused on post presidency speaking deals or trying to get bj's from interns.

Based on my experience, I would rather have someone like that on my team than someone with seemingly better qualifications who didn't have the will.

8/21/2006 08:23:00 AM  
Blogger CatoRenasci said...

soflauthor wrote:

Is it possible that Malcolm Gladwell’s epidemiological view of change can be applied to the apparent rush to radical Islam by tens of thousands (millions?) of otherwise westernized Islamic youth? Is what Wretchard has described in this post a harbinger of a “tipping point?”

I have found the notion of tipping points - if not the whole 'theory' very useful. [The earliest reference to something like it I can recall is some 35 years ago reading Geoffrey Hazard's comment in The European Mind 1685-1715 in which he said of the period "it's as if the average edcuated Frenchman went bed thinking like Bossuet and woke up thinking like Voltaire." - which has stuck with me ever since.]

And, soflauthor raises an important question: are we at a point where we can ideologically combat radical Islam - could Islam combat radical Islam even if it wanted to? - or are we at a point where we must either submit or extirpate radical Islam?

If the latter, have we the nerve to do what needs to be done?

8/21/2006 08:28:00 AM  
Blogger Lord Acton said...


Great post and I look forward eagerly to the follow-ups. While Islamofascism is at the gates, I deeply believe that the greater enemy is in our camp. A large minority of Americans, and from what I can tell, a majority of Western Europeans, have drunk so deeply from the cup of moral relativism, post-modernism and apocolyptic environmentalism that they have become a mighty fifth column for our enemies. To turn it around we need our own charismatics, martyrs and heroes. I believe the forces of good ARE slowly marshalling. We SHALL overcome.

8/21/2006 08:30:00 AM  
Blogger Dan Patterson said...

Well the forces of good had better get their g-dammed asses in gear, or we'll all have our butts in the air five times a day.

We are at WAR. The enemy wants us dead. He is happy for our pain. He is jubilant at our disorganized response. He is preparing his attack and propaganda.

WAKE UP! And pick a side.

Dan Patterson
Arrogant Infidel

8/21/2006 08:45:00 AM  
Blogger James Kielland said...

80% of British public wants to ditch the US in war on terror...

"A majority of British people wants the Government to adopt an even more "aggressive" foreign policy to combat international terrorism, according to an opinion poll conducted after the arrests of 24 terrorism suspects last week.

However - by a margin of more than five to one - the public wants Tony Blair to split from President George W Bush and either go it alone in the "war on terror", or work more closely with Europe.";jsessionid=4PEQWBK1NNRJ5QFIQMGCFF4AVCBQUIV0?xml=/news/2006/08/17/nterror17.xml

8/21/2006 08:53:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Yep, there you have it from the keyboard of PB,
"... a deus ex machina. A shadow group of ruthless men able and willing to crush the bodies and the spirit of these muslim pilgrims wherever they find them. Somebody else to do what we will not.

Just to be sure, PB speaks not for me. I have no desire for the shadow group to work my suppossed "will". I wish not for others to do what I will not.

I support and will defend the Constitution, PB is a NAZI, pure and simple. A coward that would have others do his dirty work, work he is afraid to step up and do for himself, if truely needed.
Waiting for the Brown Shirts of the 21st century to rid us of the undesirables.

Thank you, but no.

8/21/2006 08:54:00 AM  
Blogger PeterBoston said...


Glad to see you back. The dark clouds of pessimism seem to have dissipated a bit in your absence.

I think you will find my comment a logical extension of the Keyser Soze thread. Some of us just don't want to admit what scurries around in the dark corners.

As for defending the Constitution what have you done personally to back up your endless lament about border violations? Nothing I would expect.

8/21/2006 09:03:00 AM  
Blogger CatoRenasci said...

desert rat:

I don't read PeterBoston (who can certainly defend himself well enough) as say that he's "a deus ex machina .... A shadow group of ruthless men able and willing ... to do what we will not."

Rather, I read his post as suggesting there is in many people a strong desire to see something done about radical Islam as long as they're not asked actively to be involved.

We have seen this phenomenon most clearly - and despicably in my view - in the many people who wish the Israelis would attack Iran's nuclear facilities, rather than have the US do it. It's the "Let George Do It" school of international relations and it is cowardice, pure and simple: the Gulf Arabs are terrified of Islamic radicalism (even as they finance it) and want the US to take care of it; the Europeans are terrified of Islam at home and appease it publicly while they want the US to carry the ball they know they cannot; and too many people in the US want Israel to do the heavy lifting on the theory they're first in the line of fire, and will be condemned by the world whatever they do, so why not them.


8/21/2006 09:04:00 AM  
Blogger PeterBoston said...

DR has been out of town so his moment of clarity can be excused.

If I am not mistaken the purpose of Wretchard's last few posts has been to provoke thought and discussion on the limits of self-restraint that we, as indidividuals, and as the West, can, should, and ultimately desire to impose against the onslaught of an implacable enemy.

If the query bothers you DR perhaps you should retire to your bunker and hope for the best.

8/21/2006 09:18:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Faeroe, I really appreciate how you framed all that. It isn't the bumper-sticker Lieberman/Kerry debate, but it is damn sure the truth of it. Connecticut Yankees and King Arthur's court, it's everywhere, this profound decision hanging fire.

8/21/2006 09:22:00 AM  
Blogger CatoRenasci said...

PeterBoston: Indeed. I am surprised that few of the responses to this post so far have been on point, compared to the previous post.

8/21/2006 09:22:00 AM  
Blogger Aristides said...

The identity-election you are searching for is already taking place in many individual Western minds simultaneously. The Mutiny of Flight 613 is but one of many anecdotes that provides evidence of this.

Right now, the Islamists are raising the temperature on our society. Like a liquid slowly heated from the bottom, we have initially absorbed and dissipated this energy with out any real change in the over-all system-state. Were the Islamists to stop right now, no macro-scopic evolution would take place; the system would merely return to an asymptotically stable position. However, their early successes, our limp reactions, and the distinct feeling of progress are all acting as positive feedback forces for the Islamists and their energy input. This rising heat, which seems unlikely to relent or taper off, guarantees that, sooner or later, a threshold will be crossed.

Currently, the evolution of the West is largely beneath the radar. And yet, like Benard cells suddenly forming in a heated liquid, the microscopic changes that are taking place--the shifts that one can see only anecdotally--will eventually self-organize into criticality.

Nobody can predict how that criticality will actualize itself in the real world. However, that we are approaching it is beyond dispute.

8/21/2006 09:22:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

I voted for those that suport my position on Border Security.
Those that feel that groundkeepers and nannies more important than US security maintain their majorities in Congress and at the White House.

I have yet to advocte the killing of those responsible for crossing the border nor those not enforcing the Law. I have always campaigned for legal remdies, not Brown Shirts or mobs. Nor even habu's sniper rifle, wielded by "A shadow group of ruthless men" that work outside the Law.

I have always advocated enforcing the Law, supporting the Constitution, not working outside it.

I read the 1000 plus entries in the last thread, the tone remains the same PB. If anything my positions were well advanced throughout the thread.

Stopped and saw some friends of Jr's in Russell, KS. A dinner party for Jr, well over a dozen middle aged middle Americans. My positions were held by the majority, there.
All I need do was listen and nod.

8/21/2006 09:24:00 AM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

james kielland wrote:

However - by a margin of more than five to one - the public wants Tony Blair to split from President George W Bush and either go it alone in the "war on terror", or work more closely with Europe."

That might be for the best. Bush wants to win the war on terror by changing countries into democracies. The Brits might just want to go kill terrorists instead.

8/21/2006 09:30:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Russell, Kansas, surely has a memory of a previous prairie fire of vigilantism. The Missouri/Kansas Civil War, not far from living memory, was so violent and bloody that the nation has largely expunged it from memory.

8/21/2006 09:32:00 AM  
Blogger PeterBoston said...

You miss the point DR.

The concept of "Enemy of the State" is almost completely alien to Anglo-American jusrisprudence. I would have eliminated even the almost but for tersita's example.

If we are going to plumb the limits of self restraint then there should be no locked doors.

8/21/2006 09:36:00 AM  
Blogger nelson said...

You're right, Wretchard. First of all, they have a very clear idea of what & whom they're fighting against. Surely much of that idea is a false image or simply a myth (the Crusader-Zionist anti-Muslim front, for instance), but the idea is good enough to mobilize the troops, to keep the hatred of the enemy burning and to help easily recognize and identify who it is. Quite importantly, they also know what they are fighting for. In the meanwhile, many on the other side are just beginning to take seriously the fact that there's a war going on, though they still find it difficult even to name the enemy. And obviously many more are in denial, but not a passive denial. It's rather a denial directed against those who are trying to show the simple existence of the war. And practically no one on our side has begun to seriously try and define what is it we're or should be fighting FOR. Whatever technological, military, organizational or financial handicap they might have is fully compensated by the clarity with which they see the whole situation and by the clarity of their goals. While we don't have at least part of the same clarity we'll be unable to use effectively (or even use at all) the advantages we may possess.

8/21/2006 09:38:00 AM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

2164,Peter Boston, to Lord Acton.

I believe each of you make points I have held for well over two decades, Yes, two decades. This all didn't start with the internet blogs.
2164, your point of the sixties generation was my first observation. The University of Florida 66-70. where Cronkite called the campus the Berkley of the South. I joined the Marine Corps. I could not stomach my comtemporaries passing judgements on a generation unquestionably superior that of mine.
Peter Boston your deus ex machina will develop spontaneously in the for of the vigilante groups who will kill Islams by the thousands in this country. It will be necessary and just. For Desert Rat please re-read the Declaration of Independence, you need too. Our government is not protecting us while it allows 420,000 illegals to enter the country and then tries to find ways to make them legal and provide them with medical and social services they do not deserve or have earned.

Lord Action.
" A large minority of Americans, and from what I can tell, a majority of Western Europeans, have drunk so deeply from the cup of moral relativism, post-modernism and apocolyptic environmentalism that they have become a mighty fifth column for our enemies. To turn it around we need our own charismatics, martyrs and heroes."
Moral relativism, fifth column, and the need for charismatic leaders and heros. Thus the rise of Peter Bostons point of deus ex machina.

Desert Rat it is coming, better just stand aside. Henry V said it best in the St. Crispin's Day speech. Quote:
Rather proclaim it, Westmoreland, through my host,
That he which hath no stomach to this fight,
Let him depart; his passport shall be made,
And crowns for convoy put into his purse;
We would not die in that man's company
That fears his fellowship to die with us.

8/21/2006 09:39:00 AM  
Blogger geoffgo said...


Or, the Brits might become an incubator. Either way, they may be right.

8/21/2006 09:39:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Divide and conquer, eh, James? Nothing like a split in the Anglosphere to usher in the new age of whatever.

The polls that count are the ballot polls on election days.

Many political operators are gliding around these days pushing polls in front of noses, "what do think of this? What do you think of that?"

What these polls reflect is dismay at the enemy's resilience, and disappointment that this war has not responded to the western counterattack as well as initially hoped.

And that ain't news. It's yesterday's revelation, and today's point of departure.

8/21/2006 09:49:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

The "Enemy of the State"?
The US is at war or it is not.
How is the enemy defined?
By this Adminisration, Islamo-Fascists, a radical fringe of the Religion of Peace.

And this is a position they have just recently arrived at, publicly.

Today the President tried to explain how all the threads of Mohammedan terrorism were wove together.
Where is the "Powerpoint" show?

The Constitutional course, that's the Course we stay, and should, regardless of the disappointments along the way.

If the delegitmization of Islam, as a religion, can be obtained by Statute then all Musliims could be classifed as enemeies. Their hate speech judged equivalent to the KKK's. Until that occurs, though, they have the full protection of the Law, such as it is.

This we defend
'Cause you go to War with the Laws you've got.

8/21/2006 09:50:00 AM  
Blogger Ash said...

wretchard wrote:

"This is radical Islam in the heart of the West."

and what was he referring to? He was referring to? A gathering featuring “a man discoursing in an exotic language simultaneously translated into many tongues for eager listeners.” And folks like PB are yearning for “A shadow group of ruthless men able and willing to crush the bodies and the spirit of these muslim pilgrims” or Faeroe who feels we must “fight in recognition that we must deny ourselves such nihilstic, onanistic pleasure in order to create a world that grows and fosters transcendance beyond our mere existence.”

A bit of hyperbole here with wretchard setting up a strawman to be attacked. Reading what’s been written here you would think that the good ole USA has been occupied by Islamic extremists, their boots firmly applied to our necks while the ‘liberals’ sit in comfort watching TV and snacking. The reality is that our troops occupy Muslim lands and it is we who are trying to force our ideology down their throats. Radical Islamic extremism is definitely a problem but our approach to combating it has been horribly misguided and counter productive.

p.s. DR, I'm with you on Rule of Law and all that but I am constantly puzzled by your Law and Order rhetoric framed by you belief that the US should not partake in any international law.

8/21/2006 09:51:00 AM  
Blogger Dave H said...

Soflauthor, the "Host" is western civilization, I think you forgot,

8/21/2006 09:56:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Ash, this then I'm off for the day's adventure.

I am not part of the "International Community", though I travel Internationally.
I owe no loyalty to the UN nor Paris, Tehran or Tel Aviv.

The "Judges" of the International System are not qualified to sit in Judgement of me or mine.
All the proposed International structures that I've seen proposed limit my liberties beyond those limits allowed to my Government.

I'm a Nationalist, ash, not an Internationalist or a One Worlder.

And habu, as long as you are on the porch of your Monatana ranchhouse, shoot all the trespassers you desire.
Come down to my town and start shooting those you decide are Mohammedans, the cops will hunt you down like the Baseline sniper, which is none to effectively, to be sure.

8/21/2006 10:03:00 AM  
Blogger rufus said...

The CIA used to conduct assassinations. I think we're coming to a time when the populace (I'm already there) will wish they still did.

I don't think that this in any way makes me a "coward."

8/21/2006 10:08:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Ash, how does it feel to wake up in a new world every morning?

Oh, there are western armies in the Orient? For shame! Oh, we distrust the UN Court of International Law? For shame!

Yes, if history always begins in the present moment, and everything leading up to the present moment is a blank unknown, then experience will mean nothing, and your position will be valid.

8/21/2006 10:09:00 AM  
Blogger rufus said...

Wouldn't it be better to surgically remove Amabullshit and a few Crazed Mullahs than to put ourselves in a position where we have to kill hundreds of thousands, or millions?

8/21/2006 10:11:00 AM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

DR..wrong wrong wrong.
We haven't had a declaration of war since WWII and I don't need a man with a gun pointed at me to stand on the constitution and yell at him.."hey you can't do that, it's against the law.
" To see what is in front of one's nose requires a constant struggle. " G. Orwell

This we defend
'Cause you go to War with the Laws you've got. DR.. what an absolute cop out..we go to war and then pass laws to justify further war..that's why I suggest you re-read the Declaration of Independence..our own government,like that of George III, King of England was not protecting his people in the colonies. Well Washington is doing nothing about illegals and a host of other fifth columnists.

8/21/2006 10:11:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Exactly, rufus, if the US Government decides it needs to eliminate specific threats in the Mohammedan Wars, fire away.

If a group of selfselected ruthless men decide that my neighbor is a "threat", with no more evidence than his name, ethnic or sectarian background, I'll stand with my neighbor.

8/21/2006 10:14:00 AM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

No, because their ideology will still be in place and they will still,as they have for a thousand years plus, come after US.
This is a coming war of conquest, not of diplomatic surrender.

8/21/2006 10:14:00 AM  
Blogger 2164th said...

DR said:

"If the delegitmization of Islam, as a religion, can be obtained by Statute then all Musliims could be classifed as enemeies. Their hate speech judged equivalent to the KKK's. Until that occurs, though, they have the full protection of the Law, such as it is."

Interesting point that highlights the absurdity of the present intellectual dilemma. The US Constitution was created and implemented by white Protestant Englishman, who were mostly God fearing, land owners and wealthy merchants. They spoke a common language. Over time, the constitution was streched to cover groups which would be unrecognizable to the creators of the document. When the constitution protects even those that would destroy everything it stands for, we reach the Irresistible force paradox:

"What happens when an irresistible force meets an immovable object?"

We very well may have to decide that we cannot be all things to all people. We can choose to be something others need to aspire to and if not, they must leave. Islam is not a religion in any way comparable to Christianity. It is more akin to Nazism or Communism. It can and should be given the status of a registered foreign hostile society adverse to US principals and hospitality.

8/21/2006 10:15:00 AM  
Blogger Dave H said...

epictetus, unfortunately it is in the matter of "will" that I bave begun to doubt Bush's ability to stand up and deliver.

Your comments may still be valid, he is probably the best curreently available. Looking at the current external evidence I have to say Guiliani is the best hope for a successor, to hell with his social views, the Republic must be defended, whatever he does with abortion etc..

8/21/2006 10:18:00 AM  
Blogger El_Heffe said...

The world is reorganizing itself, redefining itself. The change, it appears, is violent.

The nature of conflict itself is undergoing violent change. Old patterns of thinking are losing effectiveness. You can see this if you look... the IDF vs. Hisblahblah conflict made it clear to me, but others may have seen it sooner. The old paradigms of war no longer fit with the realities. Comparasons to WW2 are completely out of context. Vietnam is closer, but still not directly applicable to the current situation.

The paradigms for international legitimacy are also in flux... have been for a while but its becoming more obvious as time goes by. Some of the heated suggestions here calling for aggressive use of nuclear weapons either will or won't happen (along with their consequences) depending on the shape/form legitimacy ultimately takes.

This shape is unclear at the moment, Bobbit says "Market-State". I take that with a grain of salt, I suppose parts of it may look something like what he describes, but I dont know if that captures the whole picture. It is still being formed.

"America" and "The West" are not the same thing. America is part of the west... the stronger part... but the west a whole is weak at the moment. a glass of wine and a pillow indeed... who would fight to preserve such as that?

Western political correctness and smug airs of superiority will do little to stop "the believers".

I will make no prediction but this much seems obvious... the west needs more spine. Something of its own to believe in. It doesn't have to be religion... but it has to be bigger than the individual to justify individual sacrifice. According to one school of thought American patriotism is said to have evolved out of puritanism and, as a sort of psudo-religion, could fill the bill (for Americans any way... not sure what the euros will do). But regardless America and the rest of the west need "Belivers" of their own.

8/21/2006 10:18:00 AM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

You're a fool. One of Lenin's Useful Idiots.

8/21/2006 10:18:00 AM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

They do assassinations now.

8/21/2006 10:19:00 AM  
Blogger Dave H said...

james kielland, don't put so much credence in "polls", pollsters are so artful in framing questions anf headlines, that they could probably prove that most people think Elvis is still alive.

8/21/2006 10:21:00 AM  
Blogger rufus said...

It seems that no one other than Aristides sees as much importance in the Mutiny of flight 613 as I do.

If this Was to happen a few more times it could lead to consequences that are unforeseeable at present. Remember, there are All Kinds of Viruses.

People will put up with all kinds of feckless nonsense from their Governments, Until they start to perceive that their lives, and their families' lives, are in abject danger.

Viruses, Tipping Points, Antibodies, Revolution.

Interesting times may be a'comin.

8/21/2006 10:21:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Start your own Insurrection, aye.

Starting in Montana or Florida? Cannot get the votes. so take up arms and remake the System?
You and Tim McVeigh.

I agree, habu, that the Federal Government is broken, the Judges corrupted by their Power. The Executive working on his own New World Order agenda rather than mine.
But the President was elected, the Judges appointed and confirmed.
The Congress, the "People's Voice" silenced by Systematic graft and corruption on all sides.

Make your case better, habu, get folks to listen to reason.
Win the next election.

Maybe you should run for office, 'stead of skeet shooting with your new neighbor.

8/21/2006 10:23:00 AM  
Blogger Joe Buzz said...

Last week the caveman-voter was we are supposed to stand in front of the iceberg.....
Ive heard a few tales out of Afgan that the Brits/SAS were attenuated a bit by US ROE. Shame if so.

If you want sharia law, you should go and live in Saudi From the Timesonline

8/21/2006 10:25:00 AM  
Blogger Dave H said...

el jeffe, America must learn that the only effective actions that can be carried out must be done by America. It is hard enough to get agreement here but at leat our form of goverment allows some decisions to be taken fairly promptly. If we have to stand around until the Euros correct their Cranial-Rectal Inversion we are all dead.

8/21/2006 10:27:00 AM  
Blogger 2164th said...

"If we ever give up the desire to help people who want to live in a free society, we will have lost our soul as a nation," Bush said.

I wish he would read the constitution and better yet understand it. Since when is our national soul dependent on the aspirations of others and our national resolve responsible to grant them?

8/21/2006 10:29:00 AM  
Blogger Interested said...

el hefe says

The old paradigms of war no longer fit with the realities. Comparasons to WW2 are completely out of context. Vietnam is closer, but still not directly applicable to the current situation.

I agree, it appears we are returning to the Victorian era where "peace" was a very relative term. Just ask the British assigned to the NW Frontier. It also was a time were peace when it came followed a bayonent enforced invitation to join the empire.

I think the Iranian learned from the best.

8/21/2006 10:31:00 AM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

So far today you've called PB a Nazi and compared me to Tim McVeigh.
We are so lucky this is just x'and o's and that your feet of clay are just that.
Why I've seen men have their entire clock cleaned for such statements.
So if it's name calling, and stcks and stones on the net, then I say you're an egg suck'in yellow dog coward. Plain enough jawbone?

8/21/2006 10:31:00 AM  
Blogger Papa Ray said...

Like I've said before, there is a lot of great minds and higher education here.

But, I still (really) believe that very few of you really, really get. it.

This is not a subject that you have a lot of time to debate. The plan you see, is that Islamic (insert your description of what they are or should be called here) plans to either convert every last one of us or subjugate us under Islam and it's laws, killed on the battlefield or pen us up to be slaughtered at their will.

You won't find a moderate Muslim who will admit to that, but it's true and they know it. They are almost as afraid for their own lives because they know that the coming Islamic Empire won't abide with any moderation.

You will be a true believer or you will be punished.

I'm not good with words, but I know there are many that are that are saying the same thing. Saying that we can't live with Islam and any talk otherwise is a waste of time and effort.

And we don't have a lot of time. I am not going to let my GrandChildren fight my war.

As far as this thread goes, here is how I see it here where I live. We are fed up, pissed off and just a little ways from doing something about it ourselves.

We have exausted our patience with our corrupt congress and our President who seems to have lost his nerve.

Extreme? no, it's getting common place. Three years ago I would have said that this attitude would be impossible.

It's worse in other parts of this country, just starting in most and none of us want to wait for another big bang or thousands of us to die.

But those who don't understand the threat or don't want to, call us racists or warmongers or worse.

Well, we fit neither description. We are Americans who want to follow the law of the land, but fear for our families will soon change that.

And we are willing to give our lives in the defense of our families and way of life, so that our kids and grandkids do not have to.

That fear for our families is something that the Muslim community should understand and heed. Because fear is the greatest destroyer, bar none.

I'm too old to go back over the wire, but I and millions just like me will sure take care of our families here at home.

Mark My Words!

Papa Ray
West Texas

8/21/2006 10:37:00 AM  
Blogger 2164th said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

8/21/2006 10:40:00 AM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

Very well stated Papa Ray. And if I may praise your words without tainting you with the likes of Dr's Nazi's or Tim McVeigh's I agree with you.

But watch out cause Ash and DR are liable to have you runn'in with the James Gang afore sundown!

8/21/2006 10:45:00 AM  
Blogger Ash said...

papa ray, maybe you should take a step back and get a grip - you are sounding just plain scared and it is hard to be rational when your painties are in such a bunch. Try to remember FDR's words:

"We have nothing to fear but fear itself"

8/21/2006 10:46:00 AM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

I've worked for the republican Party all my adult life. Raise money.Walked precincts. Campaigned.Been elected to various offices.
Was a Goldwater man until he turned senile. Loved and revered Reagan. So most of my guys have won. Right now we don't know anything about what's going on behind the scenes with W.
Just don't get your panties in a wad too soon.

8/21/2006 10:53:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

That's kinda the way it looks around here, too, Papa Ray. The enemy ain't so hard to identify. I'm an hour from the UT campus and a good third of the faculty there knows exactly how much trouble the country is in and is loving every minute of it. The comeuppance of evil western culture.

We're not so far from the Weimar Republic as we think.

Ash, good show on figuring out that Papa Ray is scared. Of course, he just SAID so, that he was afraid of losing our country to something alien and evil, so I guess you only get half a hooray.

8/21/2006 10:54:00 AM  
Blogger Joe Buzz said...

Ash, you are confusing fear with focus. We are at war, admit it or not. You can try to reason with the mullahs if you wish.

8/21/2006 10:55:00 AM  
Blogger rufus said...

Habu, if they do still do assassinations, they're not doing enough of them. They need to get a little more ambitious.

We don't have to kill all of the part-time followers of this vile ideology, only the leaders.

Guys, it's Not in the Genes. If it was, Jews would act like Palestinians, and Palestinians would act like Kurds. It's in the religion/culture. Change the culture, do a little body-shaping on the "religion," and it can all work out.

8/21/2006 10:56:00 AM  
Blogger Gerry said...

You can't replace something with nothing.

The Islamists have a depth of belief that the West has lost. That enables them to committ to the death.

Unless enough in the West can match their committment, the West will lose. It will vanish or be overrun.

There is an elephant in the room. We know what it is, but hate it and are trying to ignore it.

The elephant is that the West must match the Tslamists in faith. The elephant is the need to re-Christianize.

The famed Brit/Harvard historian (and acknowledged atheist) Niall Ferguson wrote that in the Guardian (7/31/05) right after the UK subway bombings of 7/7/05. His titla: "Heaven Knows How We'll Rekindle Our Religion, But I believe We Must." He guessed at ways to re-Christianize the UK.

The kind of faith needed is Christianity, and the kind that proselytizes and grows at that. The only Christianity that still grows and proselytizes is conservative, evangelical Christianity. The Jews, bless them, don't proselytize. How else can re-Christianizing the West happen? And how else can the West survive?

Most of the young Americans risking their lives in the armed forced today are evangelical Christians. Most (not all) of the patriotic Americans willing to die for their country are evangelical Christians. (The statistics are there.)

If re-Christianizing the U.S. and the West is what is needed to survive this long war, what about patriots who find this repugnant? How can they swallow this?

Actually, we already know what we have to do. When something has to be done, good people will lead, follow or get out of the way.

8/21/2006 10:57:00 AM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

Your being is an offense. Why not move to France where you'll be fully embrace as EurotrASH.*

*please recite
sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never harm me.
There ya go, don't you feel better.

8/21/2006 10:58:00 AM  
Blogger PeterBoston said...

Beside throwing a hissy fit DR is missing the whole point of this thread and the last few preceding it.

The query is not what any individual would do outside the law but what society as a whole may be willing to do to redfine itself to meet the challenge of an implacable enemy over there, but one that also lives within its midst.

At least 17 of the British plotters lived in the same neighborhood and attended the same mosque. So far as I know the same clerics are still there preaching the same hate and recruiting the next batch of mass murderers.

Does the next victim have to be your child to call these men the enemy?

8/21/2006 11:00:00 AM  
Blogger rufus said...

Okay, maybe there's a little "genetics" at work here, but we haven't seen a "race," yet, that hasn't been able to function well under the right cultural construct (in this case, not having Islamist mores drummed into him from birth.)

8/21/2006 11:00:00 AM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

It's the Qu'ranic ideology not the leaders. We can't kill off an ideology quickly but we can thin it's followers so they do not represent a threat to our way of life. And their ideology DEMANDS that.

8/21/2006 11:03:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Joe Buzz, are you saying that even an atheist should be able to show up in church on Sunday, and lend his presence to the body forming to hold the line against the Islamic attack? That all it requires is to put community ahead of self?

8/21/2006 11:06:00 AM  
Blogger Habu_3 said... and cover..incoming words

8/21/2006 11:09:00 AM  
Blogger rufus said...

I don't know, Habu; I kinda think it's the "Translators." I don't really think the "average" Muslim is any more (or not too much more) religious than I am. They go to church, I think, for the same reason I used to; it's the "Politic" thing to do. Helps to fit in with the community, keeps the kids from being discriminated against, good for business.

Take away a couple of hundred (thousand?) radical preachers firing up the young men, and it wouldn't be too hard to visualize a civilizing of the Book.

8/21/2006 11:13:00 AM  
Blogger epictetus said...


Women's suffrage and equality under the law, an economy based on meritocracy instead of race and class, free speech and enquiry are all products of liberalism. Our only hope for a (relatively) peaceful outcome between the West and Islam is that they become much more liberal. Or, that we become much, much, MUCH more conservative.

The problem with our nation's strong liberal message is that it has been corrupted by things that are not at all liberal. Instead of a lack of discrimination, modern day "liberals" advocate race-based outcomes. Instead of women's suffrage, we must have a certain # of women doing certain things. Instead of free speech and enquiry we have speech codes and an educational system dominated by a socialist world view.

It's a shame because women's suffrage is a bombshell for the Muslim world. If liberals here actually supported it, they could likely enfranchise millions of women. Ditto for free enquiry and speech. In my weaker moments I have contemplated voting for the next Democratic candidate for president regardless of his/her qualifications in the hope that THIS would force our liberals to fight for us in the battle of ideologies. It would be a drastic step, unlikely of success, but what else is one to do?

What we need to do are reclaim our ideals. Reclaim them from the dustbin of history and the cynicism of our academics. Reclaim them and proclaim them to all who are willing to hear a message of hope.

8/21/2006 11:19:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

rufus, I know you watch ole Larry Kudlow--or you oughtta, anyway, being in the markets--he's on CNBC @ 4PM Central. Anyway, that's his prescription for the 'next step' we should take, to dust off the applicable laws and go after the Imams in this country. There's a variety of ways, I would think--starting with 'hate speech' as a violation of civil rights to a peaceful non-violent domestic tranquility.

8/21/2006 11:21:00 AM  
Blogger Joe Buzz said...

Mr larsen, At this point, I would rather fight beside the atheists than the agnostics. Besides "The Lord works in mysterious ways".

8/21/2006 11:28:00 AM  
Blogger Jamie Irons said...

2164th opined,

The sixties generation brought us to this point, and until the elitist minority is expunged, nothing will change fast enough ...

Well, I see your point and partly grant it; a big part of our problem is my generation. Yet of the few of us I know quite well and in depth, I myself turned on a dime on September 12, 2001, and all the others are following me in turn, slowly but surely...even without so far -- thank G_D -- a following event of the magnitude of 7/11...

So don't be too hard on all us hippies. Though I believe we may be, in contrast to our parents' generation, who were "the greatest" (and of these in my circle only my dear father, a flight engineer on a B-series bomber, survives) the "worst generation"...

Jamie Irons

8/21/2006 11:29:00 AM  
Blogger Ash said...

Buddy wrote:

"Ash, good show on figuring out that Papa Ray is scared. Of course, he just SAID so,"

That's right, he did say so, and that is the problem. He, and so many of you others, are afraid of whay MAY happen, what COULD occur, and not on WHAT is actually happening. It is like the whole G.W.Bush scaremongering meme -'What if a TERRORIST had a NUKE in a suitcase - be afffraaaid, be veeerrrry afraid - bomb and occupy Iraq'.

How is Mr. Bushes plan been going since he's been elected? Do you feel safer now then 4 years ago? Judging by the posts here y'all are gettin' more scared by the day, so I guess that means "Bomb Iran and lynch any brown skin in the US"

8/21/2006 11:30:00 AM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

They have spent the last thousand years preaching hate of all other religions.
It matters little if the guy with the gun is a "true" believer of just a rifleman,he'll kill you just the same.
The Iranians during the Iran -Iraq war used children to walk through mine fields to clear them. Were they "true believers?" No just tools used to fulfill the ideology.
Soon they will have the bomb. Pakistan already does but is checked by India. But A.Q Khan is out there probably tutoring Hugo Chavez as we write.
So whether they are true believers or just followers doesn't matter...they've been indoctrinated to hate us and for the past two to three decades have been building to hit us hard.
USS Cole, Twin Towers, multiple embasssies worldwide, the bombs in Spain are mainly on the trains (sorry i could help it)Bali,England,Theo van Gogh,taking soverign US territory in Tehran in Nov 4, 1979 and holding it until Dutch regan was inaugurated ...think they thought he might nuke 'em?
It's ideology and a thousand years of hate.

8/21/2006 11:31:00 AM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

gerry said:

The kind of faith needed is Christianity, and the kind that proselytizes and grows at that. The only Christianity that still grows and proselytizes is conservative, evangelical Christianity.

You mean the only only Christianity that proselytizes sheep in other flocks in Palo Alto, California is conservative, evangelical Christianity. Catholicism is out there in the real mission field (Africa, Asia) gaining net converts, not just sheep-stealing.

8/21/2006 11:39:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

There ya go, Ash, "blame Bush" for inheriting the world that Clinton built.

You've just sounded the November Dem campaign theme. Might work, too.

Problem is, it's a lie, and even you should be asking yourself how much longer our culture can survive such lies.

8/21/2006 11:39:00 AM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

When the shit starts Ash I'm sure you'll be cowering somewhere reciting Mao's Little Red Book or Lenin's writing's.

But you know it's truly your lucky day because I for one will never again waste a moment of my time on your posts.

8/21/2006 11:39:00 AM  
Blogger sirius_sir said...

Try to remember FDR's words:

"We have nothing to fear but fear itself"

Ash, I will if you try to remember who it was that put all those Americans of Japanese descent into internment camps. Okay?

8/21/2006 11:41:00 AM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

Errand running and workout time...back later

Semper Fi

8/21/2006 11:42:00 AM  
Blogger geistern said...

What do we (western civilization) have to offer young, testosterone driven males? Muslims are recruiting said males at a far faster rate than any western Christian church. They are offering 1) male dominance, 2) gauranteed female companionship (dead or alive, it seems), 3) Communal recognition of male worth, etc., etc.

Last time I checked, an army of young dedicated males against an army of women leaves little doubt in the end result. For better or worse, we have made western civilization male unfriendly. In fact, if I could get my wife's permission, I would become Muslim myself. The benefits are better for a male.

8/21/2006 11:47:00 AM  
Blogger Jamie Irons said...

a following event of the magnitude of 7/11...

Of course I meant to write "of the magnitude of 9/11" -- though Great Britain's 7/11 was bad enough.

Jamie Irons

8/21/2006 11:49:00 AM  
Blogger Jamie Irons said...

Please do not feed the troll.

Jamie Irons

8/21/2006 11:50:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Another little tickle, Ash--just so's you don't embarrass yourself with it again, FDR's 1st inaugural speech was in January of 1933 and obviously wasn't talking about the soldiers and weapons and intent of the Empire of Japan or the Nazi war machine. It was about finding a way out of the economic depression. I'm sure even FDR would never have used such a motto in regards to enemies trying to kill us.

8/21/2006 11:52:00 AM  
Blogger Old Dad said...

Americans fight, and we're good at it. Have we grown soft? Maybe, but at the end of the day, we will fight and win agaist all comers. I'm not worried about that.

I'm much more worried about the lack of vision and leadership in Washington, and I've got to fault the President. The country needs a much clearer message. We don't need hyperbole, and we don't need candy coating.

What precisely is the threat? What is our national interest? What do we intend to do about it?

The threat--radicalized Islam has many faces. Let's name the most dangerous and eliminate them. Radicalized Islam has affiliated with Iran and its proxies. Iran must not be allowed to develop WMDs. We should be preparing for war with Iran. Radicalized Islam has the capability to seriously disrupt our economy through asymetric terror, and disruption of oil supplies. We need to get serious about homeland security--I think our present efforts are pathetic. We need to get serious about energy independence. As a symbolic gesture, let's drill ANWR tomorrow, and start putting up drilling platforms in every coastal area that has promise. Let's develop military plans to occupy strategic foreign oil fields as necessary. Let's double or triple defense spending.

The Middle East is a mess. If we can realistically help, let's try, but at the end of the day our unequivocal message must be that we will not be threatened, or attacked. Iran will not go nuclear. Israel will not be threatened or attacked. We will take your oil if we have to.

If we can't execute this stategy today, let's change the plan and get ready. The day is coming.

8/21/2006 11:53:00 AM  
Blogger raymondshaw said...

at 8/21/2006 11:41:19 AM

sirius_sir said...

Try to remember FDR's words:

"We have nothing to fear but fear itself"

Ash, I will if you try to remember who it was that put all those Americans of Japanese descent into internment camps. Okay?

Ouch! Bet that's gonna leave a mark.

8/21/2006 11:54:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Jamie, that was Britain's 7/7. "7/11" is of course Texas' favorite fine wine chain store.

8/21/2006 11:56:00 AM  
Blogger Eggplant said...

Lord Acton said...

"While Islamofascism is at the gates, I deeply believe that the greater enemy is in our camp. A large minority of Americans, and from what I can tell, a majority of Western Europeans, have drunk so deeply from the cup of moral relativism, post-modernism and apocolyptic environmentalism that they have become a mighty fifth column for our enemies. To turn it around we need our own charismatics, martyrs and heroes. I believe the forces of good ARE slowly marshalling. We SHALL overcome."

Having travelled in the Middle East, I'm firmly of the opinion that the Islamic world is dysfunctional. They had their Golden Age in the Middle Ages after inheriting the better aspects of the Byzantine Empire and Hellenistic civilization. However after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, the Islamic world has been little more than a ruined relic.

There are really only two reasons why Islamic radicals are a threat to the West:

1) They have access to the enormous wealth acquired from selling petroleum to the West.
2) The cultural damage our society sustained from the Cold War.

The decades of struggle by the West against the Soviet Union and their communist fifth column was not unlike our wrestling with a large poisonous snake. Fortunately in the end, we broke the snake's neck and cast its lifeless body to one side. Unfortunately that same snake bit us several time and we're still recovering from its poison.

For our current struggle against the Islamic fascists, what we really need is time. Time for our society to heal from the Cold War and time for the Middle East to run out of petroleum.

There is no question that with the loss of petro-dollars, the Islamic world will collapse under its own contradictions. However an important task for us is to recognize this future outcome. We must achieve energy and economic independence from the Middle East such that their collapse will not cause our own economy to collapse. Also we need to recognize that we're still "damaged goods" from the Cold War and cleanse our society of the Soviet Union's lingering poison.

8/21/2006 12:00:00 PM  
Blogger rufus said...

Buddy, I do a little commenting over at

There are a half dozen, or so, very savvy commenters over there, plus one guy, Sharp, who is a very er, "sharp" investor. He, also, has a few very low-quality trolls, and a couple of economic guys that are totally clueless, but I like Larry, and he is right, occasionally.

8/21/2006 12:00:00 PM  
Blogger Jamie Irons said...

This brief essay, Looking Into The Abyss, by Dean Barnett, is most interesting in light of the present discussion (follow the link and read it all):

BUT NOW WE’VE REACHED a historical juncture where we’re looking into an abyss. The amount of people in [the Middle East] who desire war is unknown, but we do know that their numbers go far beyond Al Qaeda and its spin-offs. The threat is not limited to terrorism; the truly existential threat comes from popular governments that intend us harm and who are unlikely to be deterred or contained.

In late 1938, Winston Churchill passed a London restaurant and heard great bonhomie coming from within. Churchill said to his companion, “Those poor people. They little know what they will have to face.”

The same can now be said of American society today. Some people choose to believe that the greatest threat to our way of life is George W. Bush. These people deserve the condemnation that history will heap on them.

Others more acutely recognize the threat, but are hamstrung by their fealty to political correctness. If a major daily paper ever wrote an essay like this one, CAIR would pitch a fit. Writing pieces like this invariably brings angry rebukes from those who refuse to look into the abyss and would rather focus their considerable capacity for rage at less formidable targets than hundreds of millions of angry, dangerous people.

But an abyss is what we face. And looking away won’t change a thing.

Jamie Irons

8/21/2006 12:01:00 PM  
Blogger Joe Buzz said...

From the... you just cant make this sh*t up files,

Some incredible MSM reporting here:

Dangers await Lebanon returnees
By Martin Asser
BBC News, Bint Jbeil

Interior of a bombed house
Bint Jbeil is one of the worst hit areas in the south
When Um Ali Mihdi returned to her home in the southern Lebanese city of Bint Jbeil two days ago, she found a 1,000lb (450kg) Israeli bomb lying unexploded in her living room.

The shell is huge, bigger than the young boy pushed forward to stand reluctantly next to it while we get our cameras out and record the scene for posterity......

H/T LGF of course

8/21/2006 12:03:00 PM  
Blogger geistern said...


I suspect that your troll reference is apropos my previous comment. No trolling intended. It is a legitimate question, I believe. How do we in the west galvanize and convince the young men in our nations that western civilization is worth saving and if necessary, dieing for. At the current conversion rate, based on my reading, and perusing web based demographic reports, we are outnumbered and getting more so every day. This is not just due to the birth rate of the Muslim community, but also due to their conversion rate also. So in a sense, this is a marketing war. What incentive is there for a young male in an inner city ghetto, for example, to choose to live a Christian life as opposed to a Muslim life. Which way of life will be more emotionally rewarding? If we can't compete in the marketplace of ideology, we lose. It is evolution in action. I'm not looking to start a flame war. I am seriously concerned that we (western civ, if you will) are not selling our product well.

8/21/2006 12:05:00 PM  
Blogger Joe Buzz said...

Make the boy stand over there

8/21/2006 12:07:00 PM  
Blogger Sparks fly said...

So the Liberal intellectuals want to die and return to their evolutionary dirt, and the intellectual Islami's want to die and return to their moon god Allah. And they both blame all their problems on Christians who want to live.

Jesus says death is the last enemy and I believe Him and I believe He rose from the dead. That's my choice of what to believe.

So Christians forgive these guys for blaming us for their problems and still try and be helpful and kind to them. So what's new?

Once these groups or individuals embrace death, sooner or later they head for the coolade. And they go again and again and again until they succeed. Occasionally they can be distracted long enough to repent and turn around and embrace life.

Right now Christianity seems to be in repose. The preaching of the cross and the resurrection have been dismissed as mythology. Too bad! That's the only way out of their dilemma.

Perhaps we could get the Libs and the Islami's to fight each other. Sort of a win-win situation for all of us. I jest. This is big time tragedy approaching. It doesn't have to be.

I pray that Uncle Sam is able to keep his collective footing in these fractious times; here and abroad. In Jesus name I pray. Amen

8/21/2006 12:07:00 PM  
Blogger raymondshaw said...

What we need to do is buy Hummers. And fishing boats, and motorcycles, and garden tractors, and motor homes, and leaf blowers and every other gasoline engine powered gizmo we can think of to burn through the Mid-East oil as fast as we can. Cause when the oil is gone, we will come up with a sufficiently economic substitute that will provide an adequate standard of living, while still remaining competative. And when the oil is gone, Islam will run out of money.

8/21/2006 12:08:00 PM  
Blogger Ardsgaine said...

Liberalism, by which I assume we all mean classical liberalism, not Marxism or democratic socialism, is a political system. It is not a system of morals. To the question the pilgrim asks, why are men born?, liberalism provides only a negative answer: We are not born to enslave or slaughter each. There is a single moral principle underlying liberalism, that each man has the right to his own life, but different people place it within different moral systems. Liberalism doesn't insist that they agree so long as they respect the principle. If these people hold beliefs that contradict the principle, if the principle becomes secondary to them, or if they abandon it altogether, that is their fault, not the fault of liberalism. It means they did not value their right to their own lives highly enough. Either other things were more sacred to them, or they decided that nothing was sacred. Either way, they sold themselves out.

To the pilgrim I say, don't look for another man to tell you why you were born. If you would be brave, then determine your own purpose in life.

8/21/2006 12:11:00 PM  
Blogger rufus said...

Good comment, eggplant.

The only problem is them damned Nukes. Time is not our friend.

They kind of bring to mind our illustrious Sec of Defense, "You go to War with the Army (People) you've got."

8/21/2006 12:11:00 PM  
Blogger Jamie Irons said...


No, I was not referring to you. Sorry you thought so. Your comment was fine (not that I am any kind of authoritative arbiter).


Yes, ff course, I meant 7/7. Thanks.

Jamie Irons

8/21/2006 12:14:00 PM  
Blogger CatoRenasci said...

As eggplant and others have pointed out, the primary reason we lavish attention on the Middle East at all, and the primary reason the Arabs and Iranians have the money to turn their dreams of a reconquista and reconstituted capliphate into war against Israel and terror in the West, is oil. They've got a substantial part of the worlds supply.

As an intellectual exercise, what would happen if we were to think outside the current box a bit, and go back to a more traditional method of securing our access to vital resources: seize them. And, while we're at it, seize all the assets of all of the Arabs in the West. Leave them only with the hard currency they have in specie in their own vaults.

That's right. The US, perhaps with NATO, would simply seize the Arabian, Iraqi and Iranian oil fields that were within reasonable reach. Let the Arabs and the Iranians know that attacks would be dealt with using the sort of overwhelming force we don't use anymore. Make a radius of 100 miles or so around any facility or pipeline an indigenous free zone and a free fire zone.

Could we do it? I don't know. If we could, and the Arabs no longer had a source of money, how long would the Islamists last? It's worth thinking about - might be a lot cheaper for the soul than ending up nuking much of the Arab world.

I don't know if I think this would be a good idea or not. But, we do need to think outside the current box.

8/21/2006 12:16:00 PM  
Blogger allen said...

Buddy Larsen,

re: fear itself

There you go again, interjecting historical context and facts into a perfectly egocentric rant. There's just no way to talk to you Bushies.

8/21/2006 12:19:00 PM  
Blogger just a marine said...

I hope to address two issues in the coming posts. First, can the resistant parts of the West create a consciousness explicitly opposed to Islamic fascism? And if so, can this identity of resistance wrest the Western agenda from liberalism?
(from wretchard)

Yes, and yes. What a difference a day makes.

Events on the ground will wear down the enthusiasms of youthful innocence, transnational purity, and the nobility of primitive authenticity.

Most peace-is-the-path people will fade away much as those faded away in the late 1930s after the signing of the Nazi-Soviet Pact in August 1939. The Soviet invasion of Finland was the final straw for many of them to withdraw from overt political activity.

The liberal support in the west of Islamic fascism will only go underground to rebound another day.

Those left politicking will be the practical operatives who know they are defending their families. The saying from the movie “The Outlaw Josie Wales” (which cleaned up) still applies: “Don’t pee down by leg and tell me it’s raining”.

The wild card is the western and eastern media in wresting the agenda from liberalism.

I don’t know, but my guess is that nationalistic peer pressures will force both more accurate reporting, and control from the professional media manipulators. This is revolutionary given the new 20th century power of media to concentrate the ideas of so few into the minds of so many.

I think the western concepts provide the best hope for mankind to continue to exist on this earth, and will predominate. Lord, I hope I am right.

And please always remember the criminal element in those who guise themselves in political clothes.

8/21/2006 12:23:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Re Eggplant's mention of the pernicious and lingering effect of Communism, the worst is possibly the demographics (scroll down a third) that work so against the west: the democratic socialism with which the west fought off communism has come to make babies nearly unaffordable.

Taxation--to support the previous generation--cancels the ability to produce the next one.

8/21/2006 12:24:00 PM  
Blogger Eggplant said...

rufus said...

"The only problem is them damned Nukes. Time is not our friend."

There is an irony about nuclear weapons. We nuked Hiroshima and Hagasaki so we wouldn't have to launch Operation Olympic and have +100,000 American casualties along with millions of Japanese civilian deaths.

However the other shoe hasn't dropped yet.

If the Islamic fascists take out New York with a terrorist nuke then the millions of American casulties along with the hundreds of millions of casualties in the Islamic world will make the Japanese nuclear bargain a very poor one. We simply must stop nuclear and ballistic missile technology from proliferating into these dysfunctional societies.

However is our society and institutions too damaged from the Cold War to prevent this proliferation? That's the $64,000 question.

8/21/2006 12:27:00 PM  
Blogger rufus said...

Eggplant, probably more like a 64 Trillion Dollar Question.

8/21/2006 12:36:00 PM  
Blogger Dave H said...

eggplant, your dead snake may still be biting. Putin is fast reverting to a tyranny if he's not there already. I have seen speculation that Russia may be behind much of the Islamic crap that the West is eating, I am inclined to believe it. If I were running things I would put a certain flea in Putin's ear. It would whisper "A friendly word, if a US city is nuked, Moscow and whatever Lenningrad is called these days are next, its programmed on automatic. why don't you see to it that such does not happen"? I have a hunch a lot of winding down would occur over a year or two. They can and will, do things and stop doing things, on the will of one man.

Unfortunately we probablly need a Demo, to illustrate the stones to act.

8/21/2006 12:37:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Allen, right--note that FDR did not repeat that motto eight years later, in his speech of December 1941.

8/21/2006 12:40:00 PM  
Blogger Gerry said...


You are right. And in a longer comment, I would have spoken of the Catholics as well. Actually, in depth of their commitment and in their willingness to prosetylize, evangelical Christians and Catholics are finding themselves back-to-back fighting buddies these days.

8/21/2006 12:40:00 PM  
Blogger epictetus said...

Guide to Saving the West
-- In three simple stages

Short-Term (Military)
1) Make it unpopular to be a jihadi. Those who advocate jihad against America are subject to sudden onset of death at a time and method of our choosing. Sometimes. Unpredictability is key (DR I am advocating this as a policy of our government not as a vigilante method).

2) Regime Change Iran. We cannot let the current Iranian regime get (more) nukes in the short-term.

Medium-Term (Economic)
1) Limit our dependence on middle eastern oil. No silver bullet here. We need to drill everywhere AND develop alternative technologies. The most "short term" of these utilize our vast coal reserves either through hybrid vehicles and/or methanol.

2) Enact the Fair Tax. About 1/3 of the money raised by our current tax system is wasted in compliance costs. It's stupid. Also, the international tax system is competitive. Enacting the fair tax would set our corporate tax rate at zero. Think thousands of companies moving here creating tens of millions of jobs. We need this for...

3) Entitlement Reform. If we hope to HAVE a military in the long-term we need to address this somehow before entitlements eat up all of our spending.

Long-Term (Ideological)
1) "Rediscover" the US's message of liberty and freedom and proclaim it to all the world. Ben Stein thinks that Hezbollah is willing to fight. I would match the Continental Army of the Revolutionary War against them any day. I think the ideals of our founding fathers and nation are quite strong enough to stand against Islam. If they weren't, then why would so many Muslims want to MOVE HERE?

In the short term we will face some real hardship as a nation. We should think of it as a learning experience.

Cato, much of what I said in my last post, you said better. Thanks for your insights.

8/21/2006 12:46:00 PM  
Blogger 2164th said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

8/21/2006 12:46:00 PM  
Blogger whit said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

8/21/2006 01:02:00 PM  
Blogger Gerry said...


I second all of that. And would just comment that the ideals of the Continental Army, and of the population they came from, held to the Christian faith. And that those ideals of liberty originated out of the Christian foundations of the West. Such historians as David Landis of Harvard agree.

So that there should be one more component then, faith, in what is needed long-range for our survival

8/21/2006 01:03:00 PM  
Blogger whit said...

How can a post-modern, nihilist culture of death oppose the Death Cult?

How can a soulless Darwinist persevere against a foe whose soul is dedicated to death?

How does a remnant break apart the suicide pact these two diametrically opposed camps have forged?

What is the wedge?

8/21/2006 01:05:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Whit, the wedge is the United States military, its standards and values, and the people who support it, and who embody those standards and values.

8/21/2006 01:13:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

I'd like to say that the wedge is a turn away from self-worship and a return to Godliness--but that's gotta come from within, and so is much less reliable and immediately practical than the currently armed & ready.

8/21/2006 01:19:00 PM  
Blogger Gerry said...


That's right, for now. But long-term, nothing else will work without that.

8/21/2006 01:22:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

gerry, truer words were never spoken--

8/21/2006 01:30:00 PM  
Blogger Griswel said...

There are many muslims more tempted by the prospect of a meaningful death than a meaningless life. However, they are still a minority.

Others are more tempted by western life than they are by a life in which the death of a goat is a serious setback.

What we lack is the will to shut down the conveyor belt converting the latter into the former.

8/21/2006 01:58:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

British Law Has Not Silenced Calls to Kill for Islam
Despite a new law curtailing extremist speech, some Islamist leaders declare it the duty of British Muslims to kill for Islam. Muhamad al-Massari runs a Web site celebrating suicide attacks in Iraq. Useful Idiot's Assasin
I think it is now clear that Iran will acquire nuclear weapons and no one will stop it.

For all the talk in support of the Bush Doctrine and preemption, the administration has effectively rejected them. And the Democracy Project is not possible if the will to first destroy the enemy is not backed up by military action intended to defeat the enemy.

I am a great admirer of President Bush. He faces a Fifth Column in the liberal media, the Democrat party, and the judiciary, which have shamefully used the war to try to weaken him and his office.
But every president, including Abraham Lincoln, has faced domestic opposition during war at some level.

The president has not helped himself by failing to effectively rally the American people to his side. He has access to media outlets, such as talk radio, the Internet, and cable channels, which either didn't exist or were in their infancy in the past.
He has failed to explain consistently the worldwide consequences of Islamo-Nazism
, its geographical reach, the military and economic demands it places on our country, and so forth. FDR used maps to show the danger the U.S. faced from the Axis powers expansionism. Subsequent presidents did the same to show the spread of Communism. A president must try to build political and popular support for war.
He must push back against those who preach appeasement and not allow them to define the terms of the debate.

Mark Levin

8/21/2006 02:00:00 PM  
Blogger Ash said...

Doug, Mr. Bush did just that in Iraq and look how that turned out. Sorta like the boy who cried wolf now that the railing is about Iran.

8/21/2006 02:07:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

See what we're up against, Doug? Ash isn't concerned with the reality of the world--he's playing with his gotcha debate points.

And there's millions of Ashes, and (somehow) they get to vote.

We have a licensing system for other skill-sensitive activities, but no one need prove illunacy in order to vote.

8/21/2006 02:14:00 PM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

sparks fly wrote:

Jesus says death is the last enemy and I believe Him and I believe He rose from the dead. That's my choice of what to believe.

Actually, Paul said that. (1 Corinthians 15:[26] "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death") And like a few other things brother Paul said, he was not exactly correct. Without death, wealth and power would continue to accumilate in fewer and fewer immortal hands, and old ideas would never give way to new ones. Without death, people would not feel the vitality of living that the very brevity our our life stimulates, and the Earth would continue to fill up with people until everyone was eating those funny green graham crackers Charlton Heston found out about.

8/21/2006 02:22:00 PM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

dave h

Unfortunately we probablly need a Demo, to illustrate the stones to act.

I nominate Hillary.

8/21/2006 02:25:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

Take the pizza out of the container.
Place pizza on shiny side of internal container.
Place crisping ring around top of pizza.
Heat pizza in microwave for five minutes.

8/21/2006 02:32:00 PM  
Blogger Jamie Irons said...


You really need to watch your diet.

Speaking in a merely medical capacity here.

(That shiny stuff and that crisping ring are really not good for one.)


Jamie Irons

8/21/2006 02:39:00 PM  
Blogger Jamie Irons said...


I'm inclined to agree with Mark Levin...

Jamie Irons

8/21/2006 02:40:00 PM  
Blogger charlotte said...

Teresita, you must mean gallstones. At least Hillary could 'feel our pain' when we experience a national spasm of biliary colic upon her coronation.

8/21/2006 02:43:00 PM  
Blogger PossumTater said...

Hows can yas be talk'in 'bout pizza when da world gonna blow up? I swears Mr. Habu you kneads ta be load'in ammo an digg'in holes ..da all gon be here's tomorra.

Settle down P-Tater it'll be all right. We've got Ted Nugent on our side and plenty of ammo..

Buts,buts Mizta habu I be confusin cause sum folks don't see nuth'in but blue sky.

Once again P-Tater don't worry. They know we can have blue sky pie all the time. And even if it doesn't work in our favor, what have we lost?

Butz you say wez luse lots Mr. Habu.
Yes, P-Tater and my juju is powerful but what's another hostile nuke country gonna do to us,we're 'mericans. Now eat that pizza before it gets cold.

8/21/2006 02:45:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Jamie's right--do not eat the shiney part or the crisping ring. I finally learned that, after several bouts of *terrible* indigestion.

8/21/2006 02:47:00 PM  
Blogger PossumTater said...

dat pizza wuz frum Mizta Habu fo my dinner. i luvs it.
he usta fix me cresent rolls but he say they islamic in design.

8/21/2006 02:48:00 PM  
Blogger PossumTater said...

mzta habu gotz so bad he wont eben cut a donut n half.
sez evil in da cresent
but on the cresent moons he save up and go to the outhouse fo what he call a salute to islam. sometime he be read'n da hole cabela cata-LOG.

8/21/2006 02:54:00 PM  
Blogger Sparks fly said...


By common "Christian" confession the books of Corinthians are the Word of God and Jesus is God. Father,Son and Holy Spirit are One and of one mind. Paul the Apostle is exactly correct. Death is the last ENEMY. Death was defeated at the Resurrection. This is part of the settled foundation of "Christian" theology. You refer to Paul as "brother". Is that mockery? You may be a Christian but your theology is not christian. Feminism is not Christianity. Christians don't worship women. Women are worse liars than men. Just look at the Clintons. Hillary is far more odious than Bill and that's not an easy thing to accomplish. Trollery be gone!

8/21/2006 03:04:00 PM  
Blogger El_Heffe said...

PossumTater said...

"dat pizza wuz frum Mizta Habu fo my dinner. i luvs it.
he usta fix me cresent rolls but he say they islamic in design."

Close... they are French.

8/21/2006 03:05:00 PM  
Blogger phil g said...

There's plenty of evangelical protestants out in the bush fishing for souls. Stats I've seen indicate that the evangelicals are doing this with much more energy and better net results than the Catholics. I myself don't care one way or another as long as someone or everyone is out harvesting souls.

8/21/2006 03:11:00 PM  
Blogger Starling David Hunter said...

Wretchard quite appropriately addresses Flecker's "The Golden Journey to Samarkand" to those who are yet, but soon, to find their banner.

I address these verses to "the main man" of Walthamstow and to those who gather under his banner of hate:

I know you who scratches at the door. You hop upon the shoulders of a guest to enter My House.

I know you. You have become subtle and resourceful, Even more resourceful than many of Mine.

You hast fastened your clasps and prepared your garments. You have even studied all My expressions.

I hear you pronounce even Joy. But here I shall stop you.

You do not dare pronounce the joy of love. Your joy is the joy of hatred.

But behind hatred is hovering the loathsome shadow of doubt. And doubt is not worthy of a shield.

I will receive your arrows in My Shield. But if you will persist, I will send you with a smile--but one.

Leaves of Morya's Garden, 1924, Paragraph 372 (trans from the Russian).

8/21/2006 03:11:00 PM  
Blogger PossumTater said...

el heffe,
u be so rite. i try to tell him dat day be french but he don't like dem either...sooo out went da rolls.
but i gotz ta say dat i wisht we had mo friends dan da brits..kidney pie a P-Tater hab a hard time choke down dat stuf
dat be one reasun dat'n at da dump so poplar ..all about choice. 'round Christmas time we be kneed deep in fruit cake.!! dat a fack!!

8/21/2006 03:13:00 PM  
Blogger sirius_sir said...

I have to wonder, do the people who say of OIF: "wrong war, wrong place, wrong time" have any appreciation of the fact that there are an increasing number of people who merely see that as justifiable criticism of our failure to take on Iran?

8/21/2006 03:15:00 PM  
Blogger trish said...

Never underestimate the power of hatred.

- OBL, in a letter to his eldest son

8/21/2006 03:18:00 PM  
Blogger PossumTater said...

di ya'll se dat
dat Mr.David Satrling Hunter dun took what I wuz jusz fix'in to say.

ain't no fair

8/21/2006 03:19:00 PM  
Blogger PossumTater said...

Hi Mz Trish, I hopes you be do'in gud today..

8/21/2006 03:21:00 PM  
Blogger Jamie Irons said...


Go ahead and sneak over to the bakery some night and check out behind the place in the you-know-what for the left over, unsold croissants. They are quite good. You won't be disappointed. Most French bakeries won't let them get over four hours old before they'll toss out the unsold ones.

I don't like to say anything against Habu but in this case he is quite wrong, to disavow all things French like that, and throw out the baby crescents with the bad butter, as it were...

Jamie Irons

8/21/2006 03:27:00 PM  
Blogger PossumTater said...

datz a grate thang 'cept'in here in froghooler, mississippi da french ain't here. i's hab-da git ta naw'lins reckon burgerking thowd out dares afta what, tree/four days? we gotz won ub dem.
nayways mzta habu still giz me da juice frum da vienna sausage

8/21/2006 03:33:00 PM  
Blogger Jamie Irons said...


I wasn't aware that the French had been driven from Froghooler.

What was the date of that battle?

Did they withdraw without putting up a fight?

Jamie Irons

8/21/2006 03:45:00 PM  
Blogger felix said...

Very interesting as to causation of appeal of radical islam. However in the meantime, we have to protect ourselves, so, at least for the USA, my suggestion.


Joint Resolution Declaring that a State of War exists between Radical Islam and the Government and People of the United States and making provisions to prosecute same.

Whereas the extraterritorial movement known as Radical Islam has planned, advocated, and committed unprovoked acts of War against the people of the United States of America

Whereas, numerous representatives of said Radical Islam have announced that their exists a State of War between radical Islam and the United States,

Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America, that a State of War now exists between Radical Islam and the United States and is hereby formally declared. The President is authorized and directed to employ the military forces of the United States as needed and the resources of the Government to carry on the war against Radical Islam. Further, recognizing the danger posed by individuals who are loyal to Radical Islam who are now or may in the future be residing in the United States and its territories, the President and the Attorney General of the United States are hereby authorized to identify such individuals, take them into preventive custody, and deport them from the United States.

For purposes of this Declaration, Radical Islam is defined as those individuals or organizations who advocate, support, plan or execute jihad attacks against the United States and its foreign allies and interests or those who support the overthrow of the Constitutional government of the United States and in its place the establishment of Sharia law. Further, the distinction is made herein between Radical Islam and Moderate Islam (the later being expressly excepted from the intent of this Declaration.)

8/21/2006 03:49:00 PM  
Blogger whit said...

Possum Tater: 2:48


(My belly shook)

8/21/2006 04:12:00 PM  
Blogger hdgreene said...

rhhardin said:

"Postmodern" is too broad, or wrongly stereotyped. Here's Derrida on terrorism, neatly destroying every argument on the left (
Postmodernism is as forward-looking as anything.

I followed the link and read Derrida on Bin Laden: "That is why,
in this unleashing of violence without name, if I had to take one of the two sides and choose in a binary situation, well I would."

Well, I guess we will never know if he would ever have to choose (are we there yet? Is it Binary enough for ya?). And in the end, which side...

8/21/2006 04:20:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

The evidence continues to pour in that the Islamic World is undergoing its own great awakening.
An abyss is what we face.
And looking away won’t change a thing.

8/21/2006 04:21:00 PM  
Blogger rufus said...

I see; I've got to get swept up in one mythology belief to have the nerve to protect my family from another murderous, psychopathic bunch of mythology-believers.

Is that about it?

What "Horse-Shit."

8/21/2006 04:23:00 PM  
Blogger rufus said...

I guess we can have a second "Inquisition" to determine who is worthwhile to save from the Islamic Inquisitors.

8/21/2006 04:25:00 PM  
Blogger pst314 said...

"`Postmodern' is too broad, or wrongly stereotyped. Here's Derrida on terrorism, neatly destroying every argument on the left"

When leading postmodernist Paul De Man was exposed as a Nazi collaborator, Derrida attacked those who had exposed him, resorting to every sort of rhetorical sleight of hand, as well as personal attack. In that affair he revealed himself as deeply dishonest--which is the fundamental reason why postmodernism should be rejected.

And of course leading postmodern theorist Michel Foucault praised the Ayatollah Khomenei and his fanatical program.

8/21/2006 04:26:00 PM  
Blogger rufus said...

I guess one way to keep people from reading the Koran would be to go back to the days in which only the Priests are allowed to know how to read; Does that sound good?

8/21/2006 04:27:00 PM  
Blogger Prodicus said...

Opinion polls only tell half the story.

I'm British. I read last week's UK poll as a criticism of the (perceived) ineptitude of the Bush administration in (not) planning (adequately) for the post-war situation in Iraq, coupled with belligerent talk without the follow-through. Shades of the Falklands. Like Reagan over there, Thatcher was without doubt the post popular post-WW1 leader this country has ever had. (If you don't believe me about that, check the contemporary opinion polls.) We like decisive leaders, even if some of us rubbish them when they're gone (to our shame).

The British public is divided into the soft-left-mushy-thinkers, brainwashed over three decades by the overwhelmingly left-of-centre media in our country, and the feet-on-ground, bullshit-aware clear thinkers (like me, of course) who absolutely *do* see the threat from Islam and wish the Americans would bloody well get on with thumping some of its overseas leaders. This group thinks that if only we Brits could get our left-leaning opinion leaders to shut up for a while, we could do a better job than our Yank cousins (expressed as 'more aggressive foreign policy'). There's really no conflict here. They are shades of the same gut reaction.

Electoral realities do not figure in public opinion as they do in the minds of politicians who therefore tread more warily than the voters. Eventually, though, public opinion will out, and overwhelm or sweep away politicians who deny it. Before Britain falls to any enemy, whether religious or military, the people will speak. As the poet said: 'We are the people of England, and we have not spoken yet'.

We had a politician here three decades ago who became notorious when he warned about precisely what is happening now. It became impossible even to mention his name (Enoch Powell) in polite society. He was chucked out of his (Conservative) party, even though he was personally liked and respected, even by his political opponents. In a 'duologue' programme on TV, his interlocutor being his fiercest opponent in Parliament, the young chairman tried to intervene to disadvantage Powell, only to be rebuked by Powell's opponent (Richard Crossman, opponent but personal friend) with: "My dear chap, we really don't need you in this conversation."

The late Powell was not a skilful political operator, even though he briefly held government office (resigning twice on matters of principle). He was an intellectual and a man of considerable courage. A very young teacher in Australia at the outbreak of WW2, he resigned immediately and came home to join the Army. He was promoted from private soldier to brigadier-general within two years, on the general staff in the Far East war, in charge of intelligence and planning, at the age of 29.

Enoch Powell was a classicist, and he once, quite unaffectedly, quoted Virgil in a fearful (lit.) speech on immigration, then rising fast: 'Like the Roman, I see the River Tiber foaming with much blood.' The press, not famous for its familiarity with classical references, reported this sensationally as 'Powell's racist Rivers of Blood speech', and that is how the speech is still described. He was not a racist at all, and was in fact well-liked in his racially-mixed constituency. He was also a humane and honourable man. His enemies in the media notoriously tried to dig up some dirt on him for a TV biography ('spare no expense - find the dirt') and they found none.

Powell's name comes up more and more in conversation these days. Not among the political classes, naturally, for whom he remains untouchable, but among the voters. One begins to see 'Enoch was right' bumper-stickers, and his name comes up without heckling, in public debates. Unfortunately, Powell's name has to a great extent been appropriated by the most thuggish of the nasty neo-fascist parties and their brute followers, which is a pity. For he was right, and would weep to see the danger now facing his country and Western society in general.

The point of this post is to illustrate, with respect, to American readers of this blog, that British opinion is not easily gleaned from the British media. The man in the street (is one still allowed to say that?) is well-aware that the BBC, our main news source, is biased to the left and to (in the terms of this blog) appeasement. The media even spin opinion poll results to suit their agenda - but they underestimate the clear-sightedness of the electorate.

Please do not believe that the British hate America. Those here who can afford to visit your country on vacation do so as often as their budgets allow. I can promise you that, given a choice between the American way of thinking and, for example, the French, we are, as a nation, very much closer to America. We like French food better, and France is closer, but that's about the sum of it. Instinctively we dislike the dirigisme of the France-dominated EU and wish to go our own way. Much like you, really.

I wonder if the ghost of Powell, a prophet not entirely without honour in his own time, but increasingly quoted now, is not rising to rebuke his countrymen and challenge them to face the reality he faced thirty years ago.

My one fear remains 'boiling-the-frog': that the fifth column will steal our weapons (I speak metaphorically, about freedom of speech above all) from us before we decide it is necessary to use them.

8/21/2006 04:28:00 PM  
Blogger Prodicus said...

Sorry - typo - I meant to type 'WW2'. not "WW1".

8/21/2006 04:30:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Enemy in Uniform

And Now, Islamism Trumps Arabism

8/21/2006 04:36:00 PM  
Blogger Jamie Irons said...


See my post 12:01:44 PM above.


Jamie Irons

8/21/2006 04:37:00 PM  
Blogger Starling David Hunter said...

thank you for that post prodicus. thank you very much.

8/21/2006 04:38:00 PM  
Blogger Jamie Irons said...


Thank you for that.

Enoch Powell was handled quite badly by the US press of that time, as well.


Please post frequently.

Jamie Irons

8/21/2006 04:42:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

I remember--Powell was portrayed as the "British right-wing fringe" in the US press.

8/21/2006 04:59:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

He can't, Jamie, dave h already took up his turns.
(On the first day, I might add:
Whatever happened to the 2 posts for the first 50-100 rule? ;-)

8/21/2006 05:07:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Better to s Complain at the 700 Club.

8/21/2006 05:09:00 PM  
Blogger musterup said...

The one thing everyone agrees with is that we are at war with Muslim jihadis, the military arm of Islam, by their own declaration.

We are lucky in that they fight their wars according to strict rules, laid down in their trilogy of texts, the Koran, the Haddith, stories of Mohammed's word and deeds, and the Sirah, his biography.
They cannot deviate from these rules and still be good Muslims, following the pattern of their prophet.

Their prophet turns out to be one of the greatest commanders in chief in known history and an inspired politician. The imperialistic, misogynistic, totalitarian theocracy he set up 1,400 years ago still functions and even now, holds many in the world hostage and in fear.

But once we understand their doctrine and what makes them tick, we can know their complete range of action, their strategy and tactics, and will easily be able to predict their behavior. Then because we can think outside a box and they can't, we'll win. Just remember, ignorance is fear so the best way to dispell the fear is with knowledge and experience.

For instance, when we know that treaties are only struck when they're losing so they can regroup and recoup, when we know that rape, theft and flying hijacked planes into tall buildings of the non-believer are sacralized forms of jihad, when we know these things we can formulate our strategy and tactics in a realistic manner.

It's obvious that at the same time we are learning their doctrine, we must develop the mind of war in ourselves and unify across nationalities, creeds and races. This will come naturally as more and more of the truth is known and spread down the information highway.

Seems like a really big job, doesn't it but someone has to do it. We'll find true heroes and great spirits among us who will rise up and inspire. Who knows, it might be us.

8/21/2006 05:19:00 PM  
Blogger musterup said...

Sorry, in all my blathering, I forgot to thank Prodicus for his enlightening and heartening comments. And ask him, where are Merlin and Arthur when you need them?

8/21/2006 05:31:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Where would we be now:
"Ford assumed the presidency in August 1974, after the Watergate scandal forced then-President Richard Nixon from office.
He then pardoned Nixon.

Ford narrowly lost the 1976 election to Jimmy Carter.

8/21/2006 05:36:00 PM  
Blogger 3Case said...

'"Jenni is angry that...."' Such a wretched, spoiled child. It is one of my never-ending fascinations that Western liberalism has resulted in the levers of the culture being entrusted to wretched, spoiled children.

One of my regular points of contemplation is whether those wretched, spoiled children are worthy of the lives and limbs of those who protect them. After I left AcDu and until 9/11, I was sure not. 9/11 made sure there were, and are, people worthy of the sacrifices of those good men. The voices of the wretched, spoiled children are ascendant, again, however.

8/21/2006 05:38:00 PM  
Blogger Extraneus said...

It's tempting to wish for an Islamic reformation, imagining a time when the "radicals" will be overcome from inside, but it's not rational. Even the Pope, the one person of moral stature apparently to notice, has remarked that such a reformation is impossible, since the Koran itself, when taken literally -- as it must be since it's the word of God himself -- requires the true believers to beat their women, subjugate the kaffirs, and kill people like us. It's not a matter of interpretation.

Unless Islam experiences something akin to the degradation American Catholicism has experienced since Vatican II in 1965, I can see no alternative to taking on the religion itself.

Of course, as others have mentioned, even if our politicians are too squeamish, regular people seem to regard Muslims with more and more suspicion and contempt every day. And in the homeland, American citizens are armed.

8/21/2006 05:48:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

Please post here more often. You contribution was most interesting and I, perhaps even we, can use your perspective.

Thank you again for your post.

8/21/2006 05:54:00 PM  
Blogger Db2m said...

DR, get a grip!

Call your congressman tomorrow, and let him know how you feel!

(press 2 for English...)

8/21/2006 06:11:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...


I like your proposal. It would have a salutary affect and the legal effect of helping those who would bring a knife to a gunfight.
They could put down the cutlery and gather the gun. They would feel all clean and legal in battles they can not contemplate the horror of.
For it so appears that some of our peers fears are frought with legalism limiting their logic.
They should know that war is not anticeptic, but desperate and deadly.
So lets make it legal to define who we already know is the enemy..Islam.

8/21/2006 06:12:00 PM  
Blogger felix said...

It makes sense to me to have a Declaration of War. The Radical Islamists say they are at war with us. President Bush, once every every 6 months, says we are at war with radical Islam. So if we are at war, well....then why not go ahead and declare war. Like focus, goals and objectives, etc.

8/21/2006 06:21:00 PM  
Blogger bjbarron said...

"And in the homeland, American citizens are armed."

Ah yes, the ultimate protection of the other Amendments. Amazing that the liberials want to disarm all of us - including themselves. One would think that a fear of neocon hegemony would keep the lefties arm'd up.

We are already seeing mutiny among the travelling public, firearm sales and training have skyrocket' might think that a wise public is preparing for something they fear the government can't handle.

In reality the 'elite' types in America are few and far between...just rich, noisy, and self-important.

The true Jacksonian America is waking up.

Good, I'm in.

8/21/2006 06:23:00 PM  
Blogger Ash said...

bjbarron wrote:

"The true Jacksonian America is waking up.

Good, I'm in."

Isn't Andrew Jackson the guy who urged folks to raid Indian villages, kill all Indians, burn the their fields and destroy their livestock. Sorta like Saddam is on trial for for doing to the Kurds?

8/21/2006 06:33:00 PM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

rufus said:

I guess one way to keep people from reading the Koran would be to go back to the days in which only the Priests are allowed to know how to read; Does that sound good?

We are approaching that now, when the fast food cashiers just press the buttons with the little pictures of your food.

8/21/2006 06:51:00 PM  
Blogger El_Heffe said...


Nobody said you had to get swept up in anything. But what have you got that is worth dieing/sacrificing to defend? What have you got that you can realistically expect sombody else to die defending for you? And what have they got that you would die to defend for them?


The west needs to find ONE answer to all three of these questions. One answer that is common to a majority of the people. What's the answer gonna be?

Based on earlier comments it sounds like "Jesus" doesn't do it for alot of folks. How about "Ma, Baseball, and Apple Pie"? How about "free speech"? How about "freedom from fear of nuclear weapons"? How about "freedom of religion"?

Would we as Americans (or Westerners) die - or send our sons to die - for our fellow citizen's freedom of religion? Would we expect our countrymen to die - or send their sons to die - for our freedom of religion?

What do you believe in enough that you would sacrifice your life - or the lives of loved ones - so that others could have it?

If the answer is that nothing is worth our lives ro the lives of our loved ones, the ironicaly our lives ro the lives of our loved ones are worth... nothing.

We must get outside ourselves (collectively and individually) if we are to offer an answer. And we wont be sufficiently aligned and motivated as a civilization until we have an answer. An honest answer, free from any sort of self delusion. Getting there won't be easy. And while another 9/11 would certainly push us closer to an answer... to wait for that would be the worst kind of procrastination.

8/21/2006 06:51:00 PM  
Blogger Jamie Irons said...

I would ask again that we not feed the troll.

Jamie Irons

8/21/2006 06:57:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

There is one thing that rufus, habu, doug and myself, amongst others, have all sworn to defend.

It is the same thing that each Marine in Iraq or Soldier in Korea has sworn to defend, each and everyone.

There is a rally point.

It is the Constitution,
always has been.

8/21/2006 07:02:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

There is one thing that rufus, habu, doug and myself, amongst others, have all sworn to defend.

It is the same thing that each Marine in Iraq or Soldier in Korea has sworn to defend, each and everyone.

There is a rally point.

It is the Constitution,
always has been.

8/21/2006 07:04:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Jamie, I prescribe for you this.

8/21/2006 07:04:00 PM  
Blogger Jamie Irons said...

El Jefe (sorry, grew up speaking Spanish) ;-)

That was a very good comment.

Jamie Irons

8/21/2006 07:06:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

i'm familiar with, "know your enemy, a thosand battles,a thousand victories."

If that is a fair summation of Islams inside the box thinking then read on. If not the rest won't be worth your time.

What part of the Qu'ran dictates flying planes into buildings, IED's,poison gas, using children , the sick and old as shields?

Granted most of us had little knowledge of Islam prior to 9-11, but even the esteemed Bernard Lewis didn't see 9-11 on the ah,radar.

8/21/2006 07:06:00 PM  
Blogger Dave H said...

Teresita, you could well be right about Hillary, but any Democratic adminstration will be much more likely to have a catastrophic event occur, creating the necessity (politically) for a vast over-reaction.

An american city nuked would probably trigger a response causing unimaginable casualties in Muslim countries. A biological attack might trigger a worse response in kind.

No, Hillary would never undertake the pre-emptive action that will be neccessary to get us out of this mess.

8/21/2006 07:06:00 PM  
Blogger Dave H said...

Teresita, you could well be right about Hillary, but any Democratic adminstration will be much more likely to have a catastrophic event occur, creating the necessity (politically) for a vast over-reaction.

An american city nuked would probably trigger a response causing unimaginable casualties in Muslim countries. A biological attack might trigger a worse response in kind.

No, Hillary would never undertake the pre-emptive action that will be neccessary to get us out of this mess.

8/21/2006 07:07:00 PM  
Blogger Jamie Irons said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

8/21/2006 07:07:00 PM  
Blogger rufus said...


The same as the last time:


8/21/2006 07:09:00 PM  
Blogger Ash said...

"Why were such morally indefensible policies adopted? Because many white Americans regarded Indian control of land and other natural resources as a serious obstacle to their desire for expansion and as a potential threat to the nation’s security. Even had the federal government wanted to, it probably lacked the resources and military means necessary to protect the eastern Indians from encroaching white farmers, squatters, traders, and speculators. By the 1830s, a growing number of missionaries and humanitarians agreed with Jackson that Indians needed to be resettled westward for their own protection. Removal failed in large part because of the nation’s commitment to limited government and its lack of experience with social welfare programs. Contracts for food, clothing, and transportation were awarded to the lowest bidders, many of whom failed to fulfill their contractual responsibilities. Indians were resettled on semi-arid lands, unsuited for intensive farming. The tragic outcome was readily foreseeable.

The problem of preserving native cultures in the face of an expanding nation was not confined to the United States. Jackson’s removal policy can only be properly understood when seen as part of a broader process: the political and economic conquest of frontier regions by expanding nation states. During the early decades of the nineteenth century, Western nations were penetrating into many frontier areas, including the steppes of Russia, the pampas of Argentina, the veldt of South Africa, the outback of Australia, and the American West. In each of these regions, national expansion was justified on the grounds of strategic interest (to preempt settlement by other powers) or in the name of opening valuable land to white settlement and development. And in each case, expansion was accompanied by the removal or wholesale killing of native peoples. "

Jacksonian Democracy

Indian Removal

Period: 1820-1860

8/21/2006 07:10:00 PM  
Blogger Jamie Irons said...

Yes, Buddy, thank you. I've been a Dinocrat fan for quite a while, but I hadn't seen what you referred me to.

Jamie Irons

8/21/2006 07:11:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

When Bill Clinton beat George H.W.B. the theme was:

well now

(all you have to do is read it, it's a killer)

8/21/2006 07:11:00 PM  
Blogger Dave H said...

I give up, I don't understand the system. Buddy or Wretchard please delete a couple of the triple post. Fsiling that email me how to do it.

8/21/2006 07:12:00 PM  
Blogger rufus said...

Dave h there's a little trash can thingy down at the bottom of your post. Click on that.

8/21/2006 07:15:00 PM  
Blogger Ash said...

"The 1987-88 crackdown was aimed at crushing independence-minded Kurdish militias and clearing all Kurds from the northern region along the border with Iran. Saddam accused the Kurds of helping Iran in its war with Iraq.

Kurdish survivors say many villages were razed and countless young men disappeared."

Saddam Hussein to face charges Monday in high-profile Anfal case

8/21/2006 07:15:00 PM  
Blogger Ash said...

jamie, I know you would rather avoid any unpleasant truths, but it is an ugly world and it is better to confront reality instead of burying ones head like an ostrich hoping things will just get better.

8/21/2006 07:18:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

I honestly think a lot of hepped up hoodlums would do the most to clear radical Islam from our lands. Ordinary folks getting their asses kicked and houses burned down and mosques fire-bombed is the cheapest, easiest way to solve this entire problem. It's not my fault if that's the way things are.

8/21/2006 07:19:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

Nice to see the site cookin again, by the way - Prodicus, your voice is very, very reassuring: thank you.

8/21/2006 07:20:00 PM  
Blogger NortheastOxymoron said...

3Case said:

"One of my regular points of contemplation is whether those wretched, spoiled children are worthy of the lives and limbs of those who protect them. 9/11 made sure there were, and are, people worthy of the sacrifices of those good men. The voices of the wretched, spoiled children are ascendant, again, however."

A few of the "wretched, spoiled children" could really benefit from a stint in the military. They might mature a bit and come to appreciate all that our nation so generously provides (and I'm not referring to material goods). So many punks, so little time to grab 'em by their skinny or flabby necks and symbolically shake some sense in to 'em (oft times a job ignored by their self-indulgent parent/s).

8/21/2006 07:20:00 PM  
Blogger Ash said...

p.s. jamie, I'm sure you know all about the 'enthusiasm' ex-smokers, ex-alcoholics, and ex-liberals bring to their new found lifestyle. Well, take a close look at your intellectual history.

8/21/2006 07:20:00 PM  
Blogger rufus said...

You guys will love this one. I give you Ahmadoublebatshitcrazydipshit.

8/21/2006 07:24:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

The domestic brats, whose fatal weakness is VANITY, will be dealt with by (a) the coming War, (b) a change in culture. They are morons; they will follow.

8/21/2006 07:25:00 PM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

dave h said:

No, Hillary would never undertake the pre-emptive action that will be neccessary to get us out of this mess.

In fantasyland maybe. The real world won't stand for another pre-emptive action like Iraq. The Bush doctrine is dead and Bush ain't even out of office yet.

8/21/2006 07:27:00 PM  
Blogger rufus said...

BTW, before we go bashing vigilantes, maybe we should read up on the history of vigilantes in San Francisco.

8/21/2006 07:27:00 PM  
Blogger Promethea said...

CatoRenasci . . .

You said--"As an intellectual exercise, what would happen if we were to think outside the current box a bit, and go back to a more traditional method of securing our access to vital resources: seize them. And, while we're at it, seize all the assets of all of the Arabs in the West. Leave them only with the hard currency they have in specie in their own vaults."

.This is definitely one way out of our problem--dependence on Muslim oil. I hope that this was the major meaning behind Bush's statement that if you're not with us, you're with the terrorists.

If I were Saudi, that's how I would have understood what he was saying. Obviously, Iran is with the terrorists, and I hope that one of our master plans to take over their oil regions if they give us any more trouble.

I like to think of this plan as "neo-colonialism," but one could also call it "self-defense."

8/21/2006 07:33:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

DR is correct we all took the oath. Part of that reponsibility is here:

The UCMJ on illegal orders
The Uniform Code of Military Justice is more concerned about failure of military personnel to obey legitimate orders than it is about refusal to obey illegitimate orders, but it does address the subject. In Section 16c(1)(c) it provides:

Lawfulness. A general order or regulation is lawful unless it is contrary to the Constitution, the laws of the United States, or lawful superior orders or for some other reason is beyond the authority of the official issuing it.

And in Section 14c(2)(a)(i):

Inference of lawfulness. A order requiring the performance of a military duty or act may be inferred to be lawful and it is disobeyed at the peril of the subordinate. This inference does not apply to a patently illegal order, such as one that directs the commission of a crime.

These provisions allow for the disobedience of illegal orders, but such orders may themselves constitute a crime, or be part of a criminal conspiracy, either under military or civilian law. Under federal law, 18 USC 242, it is illegal for anyone under the color of law to deprive any person of the rights, privileges or immunities secured by the U.S. Constitution, and under 18 USC 241 it is illegal to conspire to violate such rights. It is a felony punishable by up to 10 years in prison. This could be applied to military personnel who abuse the rights of citizens, either military or civilian. The UCMJ also defines an Article 134 offense: Impersonating a commissioned, warrant, noncommissioned, or petty officer, or an agent or official. This could apply to a military officer who impersonates a civilian official in an action against civilians. This includes actions taken under martial law. In RCM 202(a):

The exercise of jurisdiction under Article 2(a)(11) in peacetime has been held unconstitutional by the Supreme Court of the United States. Article 2(a)(10) has also been limited.

In RCM 302(b) Who may apprehend. The following officials may apprehend any person subject to trial by court-martial:

(1) Military law enforcement officials.

(2) Commissioned, warrant, petty, and noncommissioned officers.

However, anyone, including the lower enlisted grades, may apprehend for violation of civilian laws, provided it is done as an independent act of a citizen and not under orders.

Also be aware of the Posse Comitatus Act, which forbids members of the Army and Air Force to be used for domestic law enforcement.

The key point is this: You not only have the right to disobey an illegal order, but you may also have the duty to apprehend the parties issuing such an order if such issuance is part of the commission of a crime.

The Principle of Nuremberg
After World War II, Nazi war crimes were prosecuted at Nuremberg, and those trials established an important principle: that is the responsibility of every individual to make an independent determination of the legality of any law or official act. No one may delegate that duty to others, not to superiors, and not to judges. It is no defense that you were "just following orders".

Some Constitutional violations
Be aware of what are the constitutional limits on federal powers. The Constitution allows criminal prosecution under federal laws on state territory only for (1) treason, (2) counterfeiting, (3) crimes on the high seas, (4) crimes against the law of nations, or (5) violations of civil rights by officials. It does not allow criminal prosecution for violations of any regulations, such as those passed under the interstate commerce clause, or for failure to pay taxes. Therefore, most such federal criminal laws apply only to acts committed on federal territory, including land ceded to the federal government by a state legislature, coastal waters, U.S. flag vessels on the high seas, and the grounds of U.S. embassies abroad.

Furthermore, the Framers intended that "interstate commerce" include only transactions that cross a state border, not all the things that it has been extended to cover, such as anything that has ever crossed a state border, or anything that ever might cross a state border, or anything done by someone who does business some of which crosses a state border, or anything that is "part of an aggregate" of activities that cross a state border, or anything that may "affect" interstate commerce.

8/21/2006 07:34:00 PM  

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