Saturday, August 26, 2006

Through the unknown, remembered gate

The Washington Post looks at the statistical danger of duty in Iraq. The article, written by a Professor of Demography at the University of Pennsylvania, begins by comparing the risk of death in Iraq with other situations. What's not captured in this comparison is the danger of wounds. It would be interesting to line up the risk of say, losing a single limb in a civilian situation would be to an equivalent event in Iraq. But for deaths the situation is as follows:


Between March 21, 2003, when the first military death was recorded in Iraq, and March 31, 2006, there were 2,321 deaths among American troops in Iraq. Seventy-nine percent were a result of action by hostile forces. Troops spent a total of 592,002 "person-years" in Iraq during this period. The ratio of deaths to person-years, .00392, or 3.92 deaths per 1,000 person-years, is the death rate of military personnel in Iraq.

How does this rate compare with that in other groups? One meaningful comparison is to the civilian population of the United States. That rate was 8.42 per 1,000 in 2003, more than twice that for military personnel in Iraq. The comparison is imperfect, of course, because a much higher fraction of the American population is elderly and subject to higher death rates from degenerative diseases. The death rate for U.S. men ages 18 to 39 in 2003 was 1.53 per 1,000 -- 39 percent of that of troops in Iraq. But one can also find something equivalent to combat conditions on home soil. The death rate for African American men ages 20 to 34 in Philadelphia was 4.37 per 1,000 in 2002, 11 percent higher than among troops in Iraq. Slightly more than half the Philadelphia deaths were homicides.

However, what really affects the risk of dying is not so much location -- being in Iraq versus not being in Iraq -- so much as what a person might be doing. All other things being equal the risk of death is largely borne by the ground forces. In particular, although the Wapo article doesn't say it, by people in the combat arms. Unsurprisingly, the highest risk is borne by young men in ground combat specialties.

Marines are paying the highest toll in Iraq. Their death rate is more than double that of the Army, 10 times higher than that of the Navy and 20 times higher than for the Air Force. In fact, those in the Navy and Air Force have substantially lower death rates than civilian men ages 20 to 34. ... Lieutenants have the highest mortality of any rank in the Army, 19 percent higher than all Army troops combined. Marine Corps lieutenants have 11 percent higher mortality than all Marines. But the single highest-mortality group in any service consists of lance corporals in the Marines, whose death risk is 3.3 times that of all troops in Iraq.

What you do counts far more than what you are with respect to rank, age, gender or ethnic background. Women, who are generally not assigned to combat specialties have a death rate 18% of men. Blacks have a death risk 30 to 40 % lower than non-blacks because so many women in the service are black they pull down the average.

Commentary

Iraq may have diverged from the historical norm in that it is comparatively less deadly than previous wars, even compared to lower intensity conflicts like Vietnam, which had a death rate 5.6 times greater; but like every other war in history its dangers are chiefly borne by men in physical contact with the enemy. In this case the risk load is carried by the ground forces, the enemy having no air force or navy to compete. Commentators will likely point out that death rates in Iraq are meaningless because "unlike previous wars" one cannot expect a neat ending to the fighting there. In an academic sense this point seems fair enough. But many of the wars of the 20th century were delimited chiefly by convention rather than effect. The Great War and World War 2 are now widely regarded as one upheaval punctuated by an Armistice. And 9 million people died in the Great War so that it would take another 60 million deaths to finish the job in World War 2. World War 2 "ended" but it was so closely succeeded by the oddly-named Cold War that there some senior enlisted men in Vietnam were also veterans of World War 2 and Korea.

A British analogue to the Washington Post article did a statistical analysis of British casualties in Iraq and noted that in a fight against another open-ended terrorist enemy, the IRA killed twice as many British soldiers in one year as the cream of the Jihad have managed to inflict on British troops in three.

the IRA killed twice as many soldiers in one year as Iraqi insurgents have killed in three. ... During the conflict in Northern Ireland from 1969 to 1997, between the British Army and the Irish Republican Army (IRA), 763 British military personnel died. On top of that, over 300 of the British Army's allies in Northern Ireland - the Royal Ulster Constabulary police force - were killed.

In the space of one year - 1972, at the height of 'the Troubles' - the IRA killed more than twice the number of British military and police personnel as Iraqis have killed over three years. The IRA killed 103 British Army personnel, as well as 43 of Britain's local allied forces in the Royal Ulster Constabulary and the Ulster Defence Regiment and Royal Irish Regiment. That makes a total of 146 military or police personnel killed by enemy action in one year in Northern Ireland compared with 54 killed by enemy action in Iraq in more than three years.

Crucially, "most British ministers and much of the media refused even to call the conflict in Northern Ireland a war". And this packaging, and perhaps the fact that Ireland was considered to be a vital British interest, seemed to have made all the difference.

there were few demands among opposition politicians and journalists for the troops to be withdrawn from Northern Ireland, and military families did not petition or visit Downing Street demanding that the engagement in Northern Ireland be brought to an end. This shows that the impact of casualty figures on the public consciousness is shaped more by moral and political factors than by the real facts and figures of war. So a higher number of fatalities in Northern Ireland in 1972 had a less demoralising effect on military families and the British public than has a relatively small number of deaths in Iraq over a period of three years.

Even Michael Yon wondered whether there was anything obviously special about Iraq besides was media attention. The troops in Afghanistan were fighting a terrorist enemy and the goal of creating a stable Afghanistan in an area sandwiched between Pakistan and Iran was surely be no less daunting than creating a functional Iraq. And yet:

Some troops have begun calling the battle for Afghanistan “the Forgotten War.” … When it comes to national and media attention, Iraq is not much better, but since there are roughly six or seven times more troops in Iraq, it might seem that our soldiers there would get more recognition. An Army officer told me recently that per capita casualties for Afghanistan and Iraq are nearly the same. Although six times as much coverage would be about right, mathematically, most soldiers I encountered who were serving in Iraq told me they had never seen a journalist there.

But so it goes.

237 Comments:

Blogger exhelodrvr said...

From the segment on Northern Ireland:

"This shows that the impact of casualty figures on the public consciousness is shaped more by moral and political factors than by the real facts and figures of war. "

I think it shaped more by the media presentation than by moral and political factors. (I suppose that falls into the "political" realm to some extent.) From what I have seen, even those who support the President and the war tend to have a very skewed perception of the situation in Iraq, unless they are part of the fraction who go out of their way to keep informed. (The same has always applied to the views people have on the Israel-Palestinian issue.)

8/26/2006 07:47:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

"However, what really affects the risk of dying is not so much location -- being in Iraq versus not being in Iraq -- so much as what a person might be doing.

All other things being equal the risk of death is largely borne by the ground forces. In particular, although the Wapo article doesn't say it, by people in the combat arms. Unsurprisingly, the highest risk is borne by young men in ground combat specialties.
"
---
In WWII, some of the highest losses, percentage wise, were suffered by bomber crews, but the mission was accomplished.
Now, the mission could be accomplished with very little loss of Air Force lives.
But it is not.

8/26/2006 07:52:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

E3 Marines, "whose death risk is 3.3 times that of all troops in Iraq" and young Army Lt's, leading from the front, take the highest casualties.

The Marine IRR call up will be selecting E3 & 4's. Perhaps the few that were promoted to E5 and did not reenlist.

The comparison between Northern Ireland and Iraq and how the Brits percieved the different struggles is interesting. The Mohammedans still not considered a "real" threat to England by most Brits.

Just as it is here, only more so.
But what else is to be expected when the Leaders mouth the praises of the Religion of Peace.

8/26/2006 07:52:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

For historical perspective,
think "Tikrit."

8/26/2006 07:53:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

For a ground level view, think
Fallujah I and Wretchard's beautiful description of the Marine effort there.
Prior to political intervention.

8/26/2006 07:57:00 AM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

wretchard

Although six times as much coverage would be about right, mathematically, most soldiers I encountered who were serving in Iraq told me they had never seen a journalist there.

Not surprising. The procedure is to stay in the Green Zone working the phones (and the Adobe Photoshop program) and rely on Iraqi "stringers" to do your reporting, who, by the way, only get paid if the story is accepted for publication.

8/26/2006 08:08:00 AM  
Blogger Meme chose said...

It took centuries of violence and loss to bring peace and prosperity to Ireland, a small country with between 5% and 10% of Britain's population, and immediately next door. Plus, the community being protected were British citizens, and of a common ethnic origin to boot.

It's hardly surprising that the British people blanch at the prospect of taking on a similar task in relation to a billion Muslims half way round the globe, even as part of an alliance with the US.

What the pacificists and others in Europe recoil from is the European experience, which is that trying to do good to a declared enemy is futile before you have soundly defeated him (i.e. totally destroyed the bulk of his fighting forces and a good number of his cities). The European experience has been that before trying to do any effective sort of good to a violent opponent, you have to dish out a great deal of bad.

This is, as Wretchard suggests, exactly the lesson of the conflict which was not stopped by the armistice in 1918, and continued until total victory (the necessary precursor to 'do-gooding' with any prospect of success) was achieved 1946.

It is not incoherent to argue that, despite and indeed by means of it's current commitment to Afghanistan and Iraq, the US is on a quixotic quest to ignore this reality for a few years (exactly as it was during the 1930's). In that sense, if one can say this without denigrating the efforts of those on the ground, it is an unserious effort.

8/26/2006 08:22:00 AM  
Blogger whit said...

"Wretchard! How could you be so cold? Even the loss of one soldier is a tragedy."

Seriously, what was accomplished in Iraq could be right up there with "Joshua at Jerico." But, when confronted with facts such as you have presented, the propagandist falls back to "but the casualties; the maimed, the wounded, the amputees."

I think we're past the "Blood" arguments. We've moved into question of the "Treasure" and have we reached a point of diminishing returns? Is the continued effort worth the risk?

In the previous thread, there was a link to an inspiring post at Iraq the model but is he a realistic assessment of the Iraqi mentality? If so, can his group prevail and at what cost to US treasure?

The Democracy seed has been planted in Iraq, the seed has germinated and is a tender young sapling but America, like Johnny Appleseed is ready to move on.

8/26/2006 08:27:00 AM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

How many dead bad guys? And of them, how many were locals and how many were imports from Iran, Saudi, etc.?

And ... do we know if they're still coming in to try to bag their very own American?

8/26/2006 08:34:00 AM  
Blogger trish said...

"The Mohammedans still not considered a 'real' threat to England by most Brits."

Is this surprising, Rat?

What is the statistical likelihood of any given Brit dying in a terrorist incident perpetrated by Mohammedans?

What is the statistical likelihood of same for an American, for that matter?

If OIF/OEF has been inflated by the media as a bloody disaster, the relentless inflation of the threat to Westerners of violent death at the hands of angry Mohammedans is standard fare among ardent hawks.

My God, someone's got poor Luc believing that we're nearly on the verge of foreign conquest by Islamists.

Will anyone here attempt to calm him down by pointing out the bloody obvious?

8/26/2006 08:49:00 AM  
Blogger 2164th said...

Few Americans who go to England see this. All should. Take some kleenex.


http://www.roll-of-honour.com/
Cambridgeshire/
MadingleyUSACemetery.html

8/26/2006 08:54:00 AM  
Blogger PossumTater said...

i agree

8/26/2006 08:54:00 AM  
Blogger whit said...

Trish:
I may be mistaken but I believe Luc is a European. I would say that his chances of becoming a dhimmi are statistically far greater than dying at the hands of the Islamists. Should he be any less alarmed at the thought of Eurabia?

8/26/2006 08:56:00 AM  
Blogger rufus said...

Yesterday, CNBC had to run a picture of a small car bombing from the day before. Why? There wasn't one, yeterday. I haven't seen one yet, today.

Guys, the Iraqi's are like teen-agers, they'll break your heart about every other day; but, they're growing up. The British fiasco down at that bank was to a large extent their fault. They told the "provencial Governor" (a bit of a questionalble guy, anyway) of their impending move only a day before they left.

Take a breath guys, have a drink, take a nap. We're winning.

8/26/2006 08:58:00 AM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

I agree

8/26/2006 09:05:00 AM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

wretchard said:

Some troops have begun calling the battle for Afghanistan “the Forgotten War.

They must have forgotten that the Korean War was the "Forgotten War". That war, too, had the support of the United Nations, while the following police action (Vietnam) was America unilaterally (in essence) trying to keep the status quo in an entity vacated by a European imperial force (France). It was 1914 when the Brits came to Iraq to "liberate" it. The wheel in the sky keeps on turnin'.

8/26/2006 09:06:00 AM  
Blogger The Mad Fiddler said...

meme chose seems to have put finger on the telling point — i.e., that it's premature to be trying to re-construct and "help" the people BEFORE we've kicked the asses of the bad-gauys sufficiently to persuade them to surrender.

Surrender.

No? Kick ass a whole lot more...

Surrender.

No? Kick Ass.

Surrender?

Et cetera.

Otherwise it's like trying to rehabilitate the robber in the liquor store while he's still holding the shotgun on the clerk.

8/26/2006 09:08:00 AM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

MASTER ZEN MAZU

THE NORMAL MIND

The WAY does not require cultivation--just don't pollute it.

What is pollution? As long as you have a fluctuating mind fabricating artificialities abd contrivanced, all of this is pollution.
If you want to understand the WAY directly, the normal mind is the WAY.
What I mean by the normal mind is the mind without artificiality,without subjective judgements, without grasping or rejection.
ZEN MASTER MAZU

8/26/2006 09:16:00 AM  
Blogger whit said...

OT and so early in the thread but:
Global Warming is causing Glaciers to Grow and my head to explode!

8/26/2006 09:20:00 AM  
Blogger Meme chose said...

The number of ways in which our present situation illuminates the formerly hard-to-understand 1930's seems endless.

What were the bulk of the German people doing during the 1930's? This is an issue which of course bears on their culpability, and on our own moral status, given what we subsequently did to them.

It's a question most histories have been coy about.

It is now clear to me that many if not most of them were doing exactly what many if not most Muslims (as the surveys in the UK and elsewhere show) are doing today: not actively supporting the violence by members of their community, but not opposing it either, and privately deriving great pleasure from the assaults on their neighbors, which they consider justified.

This attitude proved enough to condemn all of the Germans to total military defeat and surrender, in a war the Allies had not sought. I don't see any other likely ultimate outcome for Muslims today. They are playing with fire.

8/26/2006 09:37:00 AM  
Blogger braggcreek said...

On Sept 14, Anoushe Ansari will be the first Iranian to travel in space.

But, not as an official representative of the Iranian gov't.

but as beautiful, successful, female capitalist living in the United States.

Ahmadinejad should be pissed.

Where is Voice of America to impress this on the kids in Iran.

http://robot_guy.blogspot.com/2006/08/welcome-to-21st-century-mahmoud.html

8/26/2006 09:46:00 AM  
Blogger The Mad Fiddler said...

Of course, Global Warming will cause glaciers to grow:

• sun warms oceans more than usual, evaporating more moisture
• moisture in atmosphere creates additional precipitation, falling as snow in northern regions and mountainous altitudes.
• more snow makes glaciers grow faster initially than the additional heat melts the same glaciers.

Eventually, the hot air causing Global Warming will be traced to the overheated rhetoric emerging from the fanatical loonies ranting about how the Kyoto accordion could have saved the world.

8/26/2006 09:50:00 AM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

Our host Wretchard writes on the current post:

"However, what really affects the risk of dying is not so much location -- being in Iraq versus not being in Iraq -- so much as what a person might be doing. All other things being equal the risk of death is largely borne by the ground forces.

I made this point to one of the contributors here in the post "Forward Together". The contributor took great issue having just received a loved one back home from Iraq. Proximity to the enemy is always more hazardous to your health and well being than being in the rearward areas,sandbagged and safer.
It is gratifying to see my own knowledge keenly in line with our host's research.

8/26/2006 09:56:00 AM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

OTS, but interesting anomaly.

TAOISM AND LESBIANISM


Taoism stresses the relationship between yin and yang: two opposing forces which maintain harmony through balance. The Taoist tradition holds that males need the energies of females, and vice versa, in order to bring about balance, completion and transformation. Heterosexuality is seen as the physical and emotional embodiment of the harmonious balance between yin and yang. Homosexuality on the other hand is often seen as the union of two yins or two yangs, and therefore unbalanced. People in same-sex relationships or people who engage in same-sex sexual behaviour are thought to be susceptible to illness.[22] However, homosexuality is not explicitly forbidden by the Taoist Holy Books, the Tao Te Ching and the Zhuangzi.

There is a Taoist contributor whose bio is a very interesting read.

8/26/2006 10:03:00 AM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

especially the website of the contributor...

8/26/2006 10:04:00 AM  
Blogger Annoy Mouse said...

We here little details about combat deaths, but it is not hard to imagine it being dangerous. But what are the statistics of being shrapped by an IED? Something terrible about the idea of being turned into a red mist without a chance to fight back.

The British apparently feel more at home with the Mohammedans than they do their Gaelic cousins. Now war there in Northern Ireland and no problem with the indigenous bombers, after all, Britain has it coming right?

It is interesting to note that many enlisted men who’s times up are not reenlisting but signing on to a stint with the reserves where they are more likely to be promoted. I wonder how this tilts the statistics.

8/26/2006 10:08:00 AM  
Blogger Annoy Mouse said...

Nahncee,
“And ... do we know if they're still coming in to try to bag their very own American?”

It will be a fine day in my book when free-lance Westerners go to foreign countries to bag their own Mohammedan.

I am pretty sure that the Imams promise a holy hand job or more for American deaths. Maybe it is time to put a bounty on every know terrorist and let good old market economics take care of the problem.

8/26/2006 10:16:00 AM  
Blogger rufus said...

Forget the IED's, this is where we're taking the casualties.

Be careful, put your beer down before viewing This.

8/26/2006 10:37:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

But it you crouched down and sucked on it wouldn't you just have two broken legs?

8/26/2006 10:46:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

I grew up in McNamera's time:
It's all about cost/benefit.

8/26/2006 10:49:00 AM  
Blogger rufus said...

12 months in Iraq without a beer, two broken legs? Man, that's a coin-flip.

8/26/2006 10:52:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

We'll no doubt find a consensus opinion of the Club.
Robert M would not be amused.

8/26/2006 10:53:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

I can see two guys lifting the spring wondering why the smile.

8/26/2006 10:55:00 AM  
Blogger Annoy Mouse said...

Idle men in the hands of mice make Mouse a dull boy. Prefer vodka.

8/26/2006 10:56:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Now we gotta figure out how we'd bait it for 'Rat.

8/26/2006 11:00:00 AM  
Blogger luc said...

whit said... 8/26/2006 08:56:22 AM

“I may be mistaken but I believe Luc is a European. I would say that his chances of becoming a dhimmi are statistically far greater than dying at the hands of the Islamists. Should he be any less alarmed at the thought of Eurabia?”

You are correct as far as my being born in Europe but the statistics are lying with respect to my chances of becoming a dhimmi seen that I did not become a “commie” either. I am also inclined to think that my reply to a dhimmi offer I could not refuse would be more in line with the Soze guy from a previous Wretchard post than accepting the dhimmitude; However, I won’t know for sure until it happens, but for now I seem to be fairly hard-line in my comments about Iran and NoKo and trying not to find out ;)

8/26/2006 11:18:00 AM  
Blogger David Lindsay Watch said...

Defend a leading Scoop Jackson/Tony Blair politician against a challenge from paleo-Labour: the old Socialist means to the Buchananite ends. Visit http://davidlindsaywatch.blogspot.com URGENTLY.

8/26/2006 11:27:00 AM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

mad fiddler wrote:

• sun warms oceans more than usual, evaporating more moisture
• moisture in atmosphere creates additional precipitation, falling as snow in northern regions and mountainous altitudes.
• more snow makes glaciers grow faster initially than the additional heat melts the same glaciers.


• Al Gore has a harder time cherry-picking glacier images for his power point presentation.
• The increased CO2 is taken up by vegetation from Brazil to Iowa, resulting in a an increase of biodiesel output.
• Winters in the US northeast and Great Lakes region moderate, resulting in less consumption of natural gas and coal for heating homes. The fossil fuels are diverted to liquefaction plants for end-use in automobiles.
• Carbon-neutral solar-powered air conditioning units become the rage from Phoenix to the new sunbelt city of Vancouver BC, where palm trees replace pine.

8/26/2006 11:29:00 AM  
Blogger rufus said...

Now, I think I've got it.

8/26/2006 11:29:00 AM  
Blogger whit said...

From Blackfive, I also liked the Street Photographer with his sign saying:

Iraqi Photos
Look Here
Smile
Wait For Flash


But what would CIC Hillary Rodham think?

8/26/2006 11:31:00 AM  
Blogger PossumTater said...

I reck'on there be a few.
and den not sa many dat would say dat a gal or fella would be back woods talk'in.
I dun et all i can but i still knows one thang.

I agree with ev'r post ev'r writ by man 'er wo-man
by golly,'greement is what makes united and strong. don't wanna know nun negatvz, jus harmony and 'greement
So i be agree.

8/26/2006 11:56:00 AM  
Blogger PeterBoston said...

We needed a PhD to tell us that being an E3 in a Marine rifle company in a combat zone is dangerous? What does this guy have to say about the risk of checking my fuel tank level with an illuminated match?

8/26/2006 12:00:00 PM  
Blogger luc said...

If you are intersted a different serious scientific opinion from that of Chief Climatologist Algore see:
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2006/08/25/globalcooling.shtml

8/26/2006 12:06:00 PM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

wretchard said:

Between March 21, 2003, when the first military death was recorded in Iraq, and March 31, 2006, there were 2,321 deaths among American troops in Iraq.

Let's use this figure and rank the Iraq War with battle deaths from other US wars.

World War II..............291,557
Civil War (Aggressors)..140,414
Civil War (Old Dixie).....133,821
World War I................53,402
Vietnam War...............47,366
Korean War................33,629
Revolutionary War.........4,435
Iraq War....................2,321
War of 1812................2,260
Mexican War...............1,733
Spanish-American War......385
Afghanistan 2002-present...327
Gulf War I.....................147

At a glance it can be seen that there is a discontinuity between the battle deaths of a large conflict such as Korea, and a small one such as the Revolutionary War. Iraq is still and will probably always be, a minor conflict.

8/26/2006 12:13:00 PM  
Blogger rufus said...

I think This is Important.

8/26/2006 12:13:00 PM  
Blogger PossumTater said...

ZEN MASTER LINJI

SELF-CONFIDENCE

What I point out to you is only that you shouldn't allow yourselves to be confused by others. Act when you need to,without further hesitation or doubt.
People today can't do this--what is their affliction? Their affliction is in their lack of self confidence.
If you do not spontaneously trust yourself sufficiently, you will be in a frantic state,pursuing all sorts of objects and being changed by those objects,unable to be independent.
ZEN MASTER LINJI

8/26/2006 12:15:00 PM  
Blogger whit said...

Rufus:
That is very good news that hopefully will be followed by a lessening of the violence.

8/26/2006 12:20:00 PM  
Blogger whit said...

Lest we too excited about the tribal chiefs signing on with al-Maliki here’s another disturbing story about what happens under Islamic governments. The Iraqi Government denies it of course.

8/26/2006 12:30:00 PM  
Blogger hdgreene said...

Actually, all we need is 100 (or 100,000) more dead Americans. Via Instapundit:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/russell-shaw/i-hope-and-pray-we-dont-_b_28011.html

Mr. Shaw asks: "What if another terror attack just before this fall's elections could save many thousand-times the lives lost?" Because, you see, the peaceful Democrats would win back Congress and keep abortion legal and nationalize health care.

Of course the sudden death of large numbers of American Soldiers may serve the same purpose. So is the problem too many deaths -- or too few?

Interestingly, fighting terror does not make Mr. Shaw's "to do" list.

8/26/2006 12:33:00 PM  
Blogger The Mad Fiddler said...

Teresita, you must know I was joking with my Global warming post...

I don't have any doubt that humans are despoiling parts of the planet, but the issue of Global Warming is far more equivocal and complex than the LLL would ever admit, and the Kyoto accord seems designed for no other purpose than to allow Third World "victim" states to extort money from the countries that are providing the world with all the technological advances.

I often joke at the supermarket checkout: "We live in an age of miracles. We don't have to like'em all but they're still miracles..."

The consistency of the LLL posturing on a wide range of issues and causes is the only thing that really demonstrates that they are thinking creatures.

8/26/2006 12:53:00 PM  
Blogger rufus said...

How did I miss this one? I knew there was some reason why I could never be a Communist.

They take all the fun out of life ... Uh, .... death; Whatever.

8/26/2006 01:06:00 PM  
Blogger luc said...

The Mad Fiddler said... 8/26/2006 12:53:53 PM "Teresita, you must know I was joking with my Global warming post..."

Did you have a chance to check the article I reered to in my 12:06:16 PM

http://www.mosnews.com/news/2006/08/25/globalcooling.shtml

8/26/2006 01:10:00 PM  
Blogger allen said...

teresita, 12:13:30 PM

The casualty roll for the 110th Illinois Volunteer Infantry Regiment: lost 1 officer and 13 enlisted men killed or mortally wounded and 2 officers and 212 enlisted men by disease.

ILLINOIS INFANTRY REGIMENTS
http://www.mosocco.com/
illinois.html

The ratio of killed in action to those perishing in camp is not atypical of the time.

Would you say those dead of disease were less patriotic than those killed in battle?

8/26/2006 01:11:00 PM  
Blogger Ilia Capitolina said...

It was a mistake to not have demanded a complete and total surrender.

It was a mistake to allow any Islamist flavor in the culture or constitution.

It was a mistake to try and keep Iraq intact.

It was a mistake to ally with the Shiia.

It was a mistake to keep troops in urban areas after the Iraqi army dissolved.

It was a mistake to keep major Sunni and Shiia strongholds standing.

It was a mistake to have invested one penny in Iraq.

It was a mistake not to have commandeered all Iraqi assets to pay for this war.

It was a mistake to not treat the Sunni and Shiia as anything but savages they are.

It is a mistake not to learn from these mistakes and not try to correct them.

8/26/2006 01:12:00 PM  
Blogger trish said...

"I would say that his chances of becoming a dhimmi are statistically far greater than dying at the hands of the Islamists."

whit,

The potential of a dhimmified Europe, even in those countries with substantial Muslim minorities, is so much patent nonsense. There's a difference between, on the one hand, publically indulgent, politically correct attitudes towards Muslim minorities and, on the other, the submission of entire European populations to Muslim authority.

And on a continent full of world-class, dyed-in-the-wool chauvinists, it is actually far LESS likely even than here.

8/26/2006 01:31:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

Whit - But, when confronted with facts such as you have presented, the propagandist falls back to "but the casualties; the maimed, the wounded, the amputees."

If by propagandists, you mean the families of badly wounded soldiers, you have a point. Advances in battlefield medical technology plus the horrific effects of IEDs mean we have soldiers that survive with massive, permanent trauma that would have died in any other war. They estimated in a Discovery Channel Documentary that for every soldier KIA in Iraq, there would be 2 more KIA but for medical advances. Some of those "KIA saved" patients go on to full recovery, but not a majority. Supposedly, we have more 100% disabled from Iraq than from Korea already, with IED blast, amps, burns, total blinding, and permanent brain injury the main trauma mechanism.

The stats as Wretchard pointed out, are misleading. Because the WP does not refine risk down or factor in serious wound risk. With effective death risk for the 20% in combat arms, multiply the overall troop death rate by 5 times. Then add the serious wound rate (loss of limb, injuries leaving a soldier in the 25%-100% disabled range) of 2.1 times the death rate.

Then you can evaluate meaningful risk, which falls on the "tip of the spear" men....and while I thank a black female mess cook for her service or a AF Reservist radar intercept officer with 2 college degrees..in Iraq and Afghanistan combat risk and burdern is wildly dissimilar between the "combat military" and the "support military".

And while we worry about the military becoming an insular subculture disconnected from other Americans with lack of a Draft, we have set up our military in specialities so much that there is now a stronger disconnect between front line and rear echelon troops than in Vietnam or any previous war. (In terms of risk, living conditions, the daily military reality).

Study of individual units is illustrative. Some Army units on the front lines have suffered 15% casualties. Some Marine units have 40% casualty rates. My nephew in the Army said of his original cohort at the beginning of their 1st combat tour in 2002 - by the end of the 3rd in 2006 - over half the original soldiers had purple hearts, about 10% of those casualties dead or badly maimed or brain-damaged from IED concussion.

For many soldiers, being in Iraq or Afghanistan is almost a cakewalk. Stay on a super base, encounter know natives, entertain celebrities and politicans who laud them for their time on base.

For other soldiers, the ones we have too few of to deal with the enemy...it is not a cakewalk less risky than living in Philadelphia.
Not by a long shot.
***********************
Teresita 12:13 PM post

Your statistics are misleading. You compare total deaths in Iraq to only combat deaths in other wars. Apples and oranges.

If we add the seriously maimed that would have died in other wars, in terms of significant casualties, we are ahead of the Revolutionary War as well in blood shed.

Iraq is still and will probably always be, a minor conflict.

Again, you are wrong. Iraq is now the 4th most expensive war the US has ever fought. On track to exceed Vietnam's costs in 2007, making only WWII and the Civil War more costly ventures. You don't feel it's economic impact because Bush borrowed the money to fight it from Japan, China, France, and KSA...the idea being no pain now, pay later once his "supply side theories" have grown the economy so future Americans that will pay the Asians and others will find it less painless the "Deferred sacrifice, stick it to future generations" war plan...Though conveniently, Bush has made is so present Americans actually get tax cuts. Clever guy, ey??

***********************

8/26/2006 01:42:00 PM  
Blogger Jamie Irons said...

From The Weekly Standard, this is a nice analysis of the options we face going forward (or choosing not to) in Iraq:

Will We Choose To Win In Iraq?


Jamie Irons

8/26/2006 02:04:00 PM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

cedarford wrote:

Your statistics are misleading. You compare total deaths in Iraq to only combat deaths in other wars. Apples and oranges.

At this time, there are roughly 500 non-combat deaths in Iraq, placing the true rank of the Iraq War behind the War of 1812 for the next few weeks or months, but eventually the Iraq War will pull up to where I place it.

Iraq is now the 4th most expensive war the US has ever fought. On track to exceed Vietnam's costs in 2007, making only WWII and the Civil War more costly ventures.

When comparing prices across significant stretches of time one must resort to using constant dollars. The relative cost of operations in Iraq, at 2% of America's annual GDP, is less than either the Vietnam conflict at 12% or World War II at 40%.

You don't feel it's economic impact because Bush borrowed the money to fight it from Japan, China, France, and KSA...

More fool they to lend it to us. We get money and they get little pieces of paper that say "IOU." If we were to declare war on China or Saudi Arabia, those pieces of paper and sixty cents will get them a donut at Pao's in Tacoma.

...the idea being no pain now, pay later once his "supply side theories" have grown the economy so future Americans that will pay the Asians and others will find it less painless the "Deferred sacrifice, stick it to future generations" war plan...Though conveniently, Bush has made is so present Americans actually get tax cuts. Clever guy, ey??

Oh, trust me, the Bush currently in the White House is not the kind of bush that I'm fond of.

8/26/2006 02:06:00 PM  
Blogger whit said...

MEMRI.ORG has a transcript where the former Prime Minister of Malaysia calls for a quiet retaliation of the United States for the “war crimes” of US leaders.

So much hatred in the world.

8/26/2006 02:11:00 PM  
Blogger bobalharb said...

Dang the weather, and climate change. If it hadn't been for The Little Ice Age, we'd all be speaking Norwegian/Swedish. But we had to give up on Greenland, and with it our toe-holds on North-America, and the action moved south..England, Spain.

8/26/2006 02:11:00 PM  
Blogger PossumTater said...

Looking through my library I finally located my pristine 1967 LIFE magazine special on the '67 ME war. Not one ad in the entire issue.
Allthe players were young. Rabin,Premier Eshkol,Defense Minister Moshe Dayan.
First day of fighting Isreal destroyed 387 Arab warplanes. Egypt's 520 Russian aircraft were down to 220 by nightfall. TTThese were state of the art MIG-21's. There is a diary by Thomas Thompson which is titled (by LIFE mag I believe) U.S. Humiliation--a Diary from Cairo. Thompson was LIFE's Paris bureau chief caught in his hotl by an angry mob of beaten A-rabs.

8/26/2006 02:14:00 PM  
Blogger rufus said...

Oh, trust me, the Bush currently in the White House is not the kind of bush that I'm fond of

Well, Teresita, I would say that this puts you in agreement with the majority of the posters on this blog.

8/26/2006 02:16:00 PM  
Blogger PeterBoston said...

Then, in September 2001 (only five days, in fact, before the destruction of the World Trade Center), the Norwegian newspaper Dagbladet reported that 65 percent of rapes of Norwegian women were performed by "non-Western" immigrants–a category that, in Norway, consists mostly of Muslims. The article quoted a professor of social anthropology at the University of Oslo (who was described as having "lived for many years in Muslim countries") as saying that "Norwegian women must take their share of responsibility for these rapes" because Muslim men found their manner of dress provocative. One reason for the high number of rapes by Muslims, explained the professor, was that in their native countries "rape is scarcely punished," since Muslims "believe that it is women who are responsible for rape." The professor’s conclusion was not that Muslim men living in the West needed to adjust to Western norms, but the exact opposite: "Norwegian women must realize that we live in a multicultural society and adapt themselves to it."
Middle East Forum

Tell me about it trish. Don't worry. Be happy.

8/26/2006 02:16:00 PM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

allen said:

Would you say those dead of disease were less patriotic than those killed in battle?

God forbid. But deaths by disease in 2006 are so low, it is best to compare total deaths in Iraq to only combat deaths in earlier wars.

That being said, I don't think patriotism is necessarily a virtue if it is not in service to life. A patriotic Japanese soldier would have bayonetted prisoners marching at Bataan who collapsed. A patriotic German citizen would have zipped his lip about the horrible smell of burnt human hair coming from that camp next door.

8/26/2006 02:23:00 PM  
Blogger whit said...

Trish:
Steve Harrigan reports of first-hand European experiences:
Now in Malmo, Sweden, a city where a quarter of the population is Muslim, there are some parts of the city where buses refuse to go for fear of safety. Fireman, policemen, and ambulance drivers have been attacked in certain sections when trying to do their job. Swedes, though, are not an easy soundbite, perhaps because they are so thoughtful. They try to see things from every side. We went out with a policeman on patrol and spoke to him while he was walking around in the dangerous part of town. At one point I stopped him and said, "How does it feel to you, personally, when you come here trying to do your job, trying to help someone, and people throw rocks at you?" His response was that it was "a little annoying." Annoying. I imagined what kind of a colorful response I could have gotten from a New York policeman.

8/26/2006 02:28:00 PM  
Blogger whit said...

More from Steve Harrigan, Fox News, on Malmo

8/26/2006 02:33:00 PM  
Blogger allen said...

teresita; 2:23:03 PM

On 24 November 1943, the escort carrier USS Liscome Bay was torpedoed at 0510 and sank at 0533; 55 officers (including Admiral Mullinix) and 591 enlisted men (including Dorie Miller) went down with her. Two hundred seventy-two men survived.

Were these shipmasters less valiant than the troops they had supported for three days on Makin and Tarawa?

>From the “Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships,”
(1969) Vol. 4, p.121.
http://www.hazegray.org/
danfs/carriers/cve56.txt

8/26/2006 02:41:00 PM  
Blogger A Jacksonian said...

Well, I hear so much about how awful Iraq is and how long we have been fighting there and how interminable it is... and just had to go run the figures on the other conflicts the US has been in. Now, I didn't have time nor energy to do a day-to-day averaging of casualties and such, and since so many folks have the casualty figures at their fingertips, it seemed superfluous.

So, the quick run-down by days from start of conflict to end of conflict, and I do use *official ends* for most of it, but give some perspective on a thing or two beyond that. (do excuse the messiness of the numbers)

OEF-A, last city surrenders: 87
Barbary Wars II: 107
OIF to conventional forces declared defeated: 202
1991 Gulf War: 209
OEF-A, Elected Loya Jirga meets: 303
WWI to Armistice: 584
Mexican-American War: 649
Quasi-War with France: 815
OIF Legislative Election: 842
War of 1812: 975
Boxer Rebellion: 1091
OIF public voting for Constitution: 1100
Korean War: 1128
OIF Constitutional Legislative Elections: 1161
Philippine-American(P-A) War to End: 1181
OIF Government of Iraq: 1317
WWII to Japanese Surrender to US: 1346
OEF-A, Constitutional Legislative Elections: 1468
Barbary Wars I: 1501
Barbary Total: 1608
Civil War: 1667
WWI to Treaty of Lausanne: 2300
American Revolution (AMR) Start to Signed treaty of Paris: 3192
Northwest Indian War: 3846
AMR Start to Ratification of Constitution: 5068
AMR to Washington assumes office of President: 5125
P-A War to Autonomy Act: 6415
Vietnam: 6999
Cold War: 15889
P-A War to Sovereignty (WII included): 17316
Western Indian Wars (summation for all): 27520

So, the US is now creeping up to the length of the First Barbary war for duration in OIF. War weary, are we?

Then to have an added bit of fun I went and looked at what the 'elites' in society think is what the public will accept in casualties and what the public thinks about same. And come to the conclusion that people actually *expect* blood to be shed for liberty in wars! Shocking suprise, I know. A nice little 1999 look at this actually questioned Military Elites, Civilian Elites and the Mass Public about what they thought were acceptable casualties that the public would tolerate in a few things and one of them was to stop Iraq from getting WMDs. That *was* a pretty hot topic at the time, so was a reasonable question.

So, to glaze yet more eyes, the short of it is: Military Elites, 6,016; Civilian Elites, 19,045; and Mass Public, 29,853. Mind you, *not* to overthrow Saddam, put in a democratic government and, generally, tidy the place up, but to just stop that sweet fellow from getting WMDs. But that *was* 1999 when things looked so wonderful. Now if we could only find those brave and fearless 'elites' today.

One of the final nuggets I ran across, and it is quite interesting, is the military demographics up to 2004. First off there is one invariant in the death rate: illness. Of deaths in the military 18% are due to illness, which includes the year 2003 and Iraq. In Iraq, on top of that, 14% of all deaths are suicides. So, in Iraq in 2003 32% of all deaths are due to illness and suicide. Now, I do hope that all of those wonderful bodycount sites do remove those from their tallies so we can get a good feeling of what the combat death rate is.

No real point to these numbers, save the obvious. I have done my best to check my typing, use a nice little online utility to get the dates and generally ensure that the figures are as shown.

I wish we could get some real police blotter style reporting instead of this red and runny stuff of the modern media. But red sells advertising, I guess... actually keeping track of things day-by-day requires persistence. Sadly, very few symphonies are solely drumbeats, but that is all we are meant to hear.

8/26/2006 02:43:00 PM  
Blogger PeterBoston said...

In this article, I argue that George Bush and Tony Blair's appeal to common ideals in their attempt to recruit Europe to the task of reshaping the Middle East is fundamentally mistaken: such common ideals do not exist. Indeed, I will argue that the Cold War is not over, that the U.S. has not won the "war" and that the battles that lie ahead will be far more difficult to pin down than even the asymmetric warfare of the Islamic terrorists. The Cold War is Not Over: Europe and the Post-Modern Left

A good read.

8/26/2006 02:44:00 PM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

allen

Were these shipmasters less valiant than the troops they had supported for three days on Makin and Tarawa?


Hell no. Go Navy. Now kindly explain to me why you pose this question and how it is derived from anything I wrote earlier.

8/26/2006 02:52:00 PM  
Blogger PossumTater said...

Pat Buchanan's site is expanding so rapidly that a new site for comments is being developed.

This would be due to the huge response #1 on Amazon's book list and soon to be the NYT #1.

Seems to have hit a certain harmony with the nations readers.
It will be interesting to see how well his site does, discussing as it no doubt will, the US demographics developing in the Southwest.

8/26/2006 03:00:00 PM  
Blogger luc said...

Teresita said... 8/26/2006 02:23:03 PM
“God forbid. But deaths by disease in 2006 are so low, it is best to compare total deaths in Iraq to only combat deaths in earlier wars.”

A Jacksonian said...
“…..Of deaths in the military 18% are due to illness, which includes the year 2003 and Iraq.”

Is there a difference between the two? Because, if there is only statement is correct. Which one?

8/26/2006 03:08:00 PM  
Blogger trish said...

peter,

That was an excellent article and I recommend it to all.

The author does not counsel "Don't worry; be happy," but is relatively optimistic that western Europe will, through painful experience, find a way to find a way.

I spent a decade or so on the Continent, most recently in the late 90's-early 00's - plenty of time to realize that the Europeans, they are very different from you and me - and I do not view its denizens as the hopelessly weak, perpetually imperiled and impueriled people that current American conceit would make them. Not by a long shot.

An economic and politcal basket case? Sure.

Doomed to dhimmitude? Absolutely f-in not.

8/26/2006 03:17:00 PM  
Blogger PossumTater said...

All these statistics on war casualties. Demographics etc.
Not a word about death camps, such as Unit 731.

Reporters have to have access to sources to publish or they perish.Bloggers mustn't get too rowdy lest they lose their access to da "home" blog.
Seems like entirely reasonable human behavior.
Ain't nobody push'in the envelope in the BC no no.

8/26/2006 03:17:00 PM  
Blogger PossumTater said...

oops one blogger used "f-in" gutsy femme

8/26/2006 03:19:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Peter Boston 02:16:27 PM,
I think she's reading and citing Larry Johnson AGAIN.
Inside source from the CIA, you know.

8/26/2006 03:21:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Rufus 02:16:19 PM,
That of course depends on the meaning of "Bush."

8/26/2006 03:23:00 PM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

possumtater

All these statistics on war casualties. Demographics etc.
Not a word about death camps, such as Unit 731.


Unfortunately, p'tater, when I see "Unit 731" or "Rape of Nanking" I interpret that as an attempt to get me to return to the topic a couple days ago when I was called a troll. So you're right, not a word.

8/26/2006 03:23:00 PM  
Blogger trish said...

Here's the article, Doug:

www.bu.edu/partisanreview/archive
/2002/3/bawer.html

8/26/2006 03:25:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"bush"

8/26/2006 03:26:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Teresita 03:23:40 PM,
You sell yourself short:
Thanks for the Bataan and Kraut comments in this thread.

8/26/2006 03:27:00 PM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

possumtater wrote:

It will be interesting to see how well his site does, discussing as it no doubt will, the US demographics developing in the Southwest.


"Mr. Buchanan seems to have missed the fact that Mexico had cathedrals and universities teaching Plato and Aquinas when the only inhabitants of the US were Indians...His 'cultural' anxieties are actually racial ones -- what he really doesn't like about Mexicans are their icky brown skins. " -- S. M. Stirling, Santa Fe (Amazon review)

To which this brown-skinned person adds a hearty AMEN!

8/26/2006 03:35:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"As for those who, after a period in the West, make it obvious that they are unwilling or unable to adapt, they must be sent home and replaced by deserving individuals who can adapt. This may appear extreme, but there is no reasonable alternative.

For at stake in all this, ultimately, are the basic freedoms of all Westerners–not only women and homosexuals, but everyone, including Muslims and former Muslims who wish to live in a place where they can be themselves. At stake, indeed, is Western civilization
"
---
That, and immigration/Visa controls would certainly improve what is refered to as a most serious situation.
As are Jetliners under the control of IslamoNazis and similar highly rewarding excercises on the Raisin Road to Heaven.

8/26/2006 03:40:00 PM  
Blogger PossumTater said...

PB,
Mark Brittingham, Ph.D. author of the the Cold War is not Over ..etc...

if you are Marxist or a Socialist it is a great read. There isn't any bio on the author but when he relies too heavily on
Rousseau and Noam Chomsky for explainations the tenor becomes debased with the repugnant odor of neo NaziSocialism.
What do we know of this PhD?

8/26/2006 03:43:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Teresita,
I believe Allen is a Jew.
Despite this he is able to rationally compartmentalize his assesment of Buchanan's facts and opinion in the Face of Pat's feelings towards Jews.
An admirable trait, but of course not to be expected in the Swill of the MSM sewage.

8/26/2006 03:44:00 PM  
Blogger PossumTater said...

Teresita,
I am sure you would love it to be so but playing the racist card is so de classe bourgeois. It also proves nothing except your own sensitivity toward race. I am sure you must be aghast at his #1 best seller.
And if perchance you are correct, run far, run fast wouldn't be bad advice.

8/26/2006 03:50:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

My cultural anxieties have to do with the total breakdown of the fabric of our society as we know it in Parts of CA and throughout the Southwest.
It is off topic and I tire of repeating myself, but the information out there is voluminous.
LA Cheif Bratton is a good starting point re: Drug Gangs and Crime.
Free rides for serial child rapists and gang/related mandatory rape are less than ideal, also.
As are the Azatlanders and Revolutionaries that Honest George Paid off to the tune of $35 million dollars.
Then we have the failed schools and closed hospitals, but I repeat myself.
Sorry you think skin color matters.
To Pat: Why to you?

8/26/2006 03:51:00 PM  
Blogger PossumTater said...

Teresita,
I would also say without hesitation that Pat Buchanan has a grasp of history that you will never achieve. That you would quote
"Mr. Buchanan seems to have missed the fact that Mexico had cathedrals and universities teaching Plato and Aquinas when the only inhabitants of the US were Indians" truly shows an ignorance of the man and a depth of knowledge picked up at the Daughters of Sappho meeting.

(lest any posters feel this is a low blow please check out Teresitas site posted with her bio..it's fact not fiction.

8/26/2006 04:06:00 PM  
Blogger PossumTater said...

unless of course like a post several days ago where she expunged her postings (hey why was that anyway)the sites link is a honoraria to lesbianism.
doesn't make a darn to me other than to explain her "civitas of mental valetudo"

8/26/2006 04:15:00 PM  
Blogger PossumTater said...

Yes men and women of BC racial profiling is becoming in vogue. Just take an airplane ride and sit near three of four brown skin Arabs, and say two to five WASP'S...WHO YOU GONNA GLUE YOUR EYEBALLS TO ?

8/26/2006 04:20:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Them's "*ASIANS*" Now,
Mr Un-PC Possum!

8/26/2006 04:22:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"Asian Yuts"

8/26/2006 04:22:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Just kids:
I remember some writeup after 9-11 in which the writer lamented that some of the poor boys on Atta's liners were still just kids, really.

8/26/2006 04:24:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Marines Overcome, Give Up All Resistance!

8/26/2006 04:24:00 PM  
Blogger trish said...

Ralph Peters puts in a good day's work, today, at Real Clear Politics.

8/26/2006 04:29:00 PM  
Blogger PossumTater said...

"civitas of mental valetudo"....state of mental health or being

8/26/2006 04:31:00 PM  
Blogger PossumTater said...

Teresita,
I see you've done some housekeeping on your site...emphasis has a different tenor...
http://fem-net.blogspot.com/

be loud be proud

8/26/2006 04:40:00 PM  
Blogger PossumTater said...

"Houston we have a problem!"

"say again"

"Houston we have a problem"

"what problem?"

" about a gazillion illegal Mexicans and some AQ mixed in who have been learning Spanish and the Mexican culture"

"don't worry, be happy" or "no se preocupe, sea feliz"

8/26/2006 04:46:00 PM  
Blogger PossumTater said...

like rush for the exits people.

8/26/2006 04:47:00 PM  
Blogger PossumTater said...

Look P-Tater here how it is...

"we want a nice BC PC place where civilized discussion can take place. Over the years society has changed, making the discussion of certain topics too politically incorrect to discuss. your upsetting us terribly"
crowd gathers chanting..we want PC, we want PC .... and so it goes.

8/26/2006 04:51:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

Look P-tater I told you several times now and I'm not gonna tell you again. If you want to raise some hell then go over to that Koz site and give them an eyeball full. You could probably induce a few heart attacks over there and do some real good.
These are intellectual people who simply enjoy the easy badinage of the topic of the day so how about giving it a rest.
P-Tater just grins.

8/26/2006 04:57:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

I must admit, I for one find it discomfiting.

8/26/2006 04:58:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

(04:51:26 PM and 04:46:03 PM)

8/26/2006 05:00:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

run, run it's Mongo

yeah Doug talking about one of the most talked about topics in the country can be scary.
I mean it's only been identified in about every recent poll as one of the top three concerns.
but i full understand thus my 12:15 posting.

8/26/2006 05:12:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

kinda freightening when people won't even use the ether.

in a foxhole ..never happen.

8/26/2006 05:14:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

On balance, the "right wing blogosphere" seems quite restrained, compared to the workplace, talk radio, and etc.
Fear of ostracism, I fear.
Not a good time for an excuse that is not good at any time.
Rush thinks it is well nigh impossible when living in DC.
The atmosphere is heavy with PC Repression, and fear of outing by the NY Times and WaPo.

8/26/2006 05:31:00 PM  
Blogger 3Case said...

dr,

Reread the deathrate stats. It's Marine LCpls and Marine Lts with highest casualty rates.

All-Marines = 2x All-Army; i.e. All-Army = 1/2 All-Marines.
Marine LCpls 3.3 times All-Marines.
Marine Lts 19% greater than All-Marines.
Army Lts = 11% greater than All-Army.

Cause still the same; they are the men nose-to-nose with the jihadis...at least when the jihadis aren't hiding.

8/26/2006 05:33:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

And then as Shelby Steele and Tom Sowell Point out, white guilt, now even for non-"whites!"

8/26/2006 05:33:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

And again, the fish rots from the Head:
No GOP Prez or admin in my recollection so quickly and repeatedly played the race card - against conservatives.
(was going to say fellow conservatives, but why lie?)

8/26/2006 05:39:00 PM  
Blogger 3Case said...

"Idle men in the hands of mice make Mouse a dull boy. Prefer vodka."

Well said.

8/26/2006 05:44:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Do the Marines rely on the Army for Supplies?
That would certainly change the ratios.
I'm interested in Numbers for
III-ID: They've been 3 times, right?

8/26/2006 06:14:00 PM  
Blogger rufus said...

Well, I'll be damned; what were the odds of This?

Come to think of it, pretty good I guess. But, that guy does get around.

h/t Instapundit

8/26/2006 06:23:00 PM  
Blogger rufus said...

Doug, the answer is yes, we always stole all of their supplies that we could.

The first order of any Marine "Battle Plan," - Steal a Truck.

8/26/2006 06:26:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Rufus,
Still loading, but you remind me:
I heard an Ad for TV on the Radio that made Katrina sound worse than 9-11 and the 1906 SF Quake Combined.
Very Dramatic,
Woo ee!
I'm sure it was fair and balanced and not drowned in Victimology.

8/26/2006 06:27:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Rufus,
Except at Haditha recently when it was steal a look, or a lot.
See "Marines Overcome" above.

8/26/2006 06:30:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

I knew that guy was good for something!
Now if we could just get Kofi to lick our boots.

8/26/2006 06:32:00 PM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

possumtater wrote:

That you would quote "Mr. Buchanan seems to have missed the fact that Mexico had cathedrals and universities teaching Plato and Aquinas when the only inhabitants of the US were Indians" truly shows an ignorance of the man and a depth of knowledge picked up at the Daughters of Sappho meeting.

What follows is a little snapshot of the "invaders" who "can't assimilate" and therefore threaten Pat BuKKKanan's idea of cultural purity:

The number of Hispanic-owned businesses with paid employees in 2002 was 199,725, with receipts of $184 billion. And they pay taxes.

There are 38,500 Hispanic physicians and surgeons, 50,400 Hispanic postsecondary teachers, 53,400 Hispanic chief executives of businesses 38,100 Hispanic lawyers, and 5,000 Hispanic news analysts, reporters and correspondents.

The number of Latino veterans of the U.S. armed forces is 1.1 million. About 53,000 Hispanic-origin people were on active duty in 2003 in the United States.

The number of Hispanic citizens who reported voting in the 2004 presidential election was 7.6 million, up from 5.9 million four years earlier.

The number of Hispanics age 18 and older who had at least a bachelor’s degree in 2004 was 2.7 million. The number of Hispanics 25 years and older with advanced degrees in 2004 (e.g., master’s, professional, doctorate) was 714,000.

8/26/2006 06:34:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Teresita:
That is NOT the profile of current illegal arrivals, of course.
Many Hispanics are rightly upset about the illegal situation.
Many others are cowed into silence as we have discussed here.
---
I've forgotten the figures but over half of LA Inmates are Illegals or Hispanics plus Illegals, forget which.
California Penal System as a whole is very high.
Upward mobility used to strongly characterise children of immigrants.
Not so children of illegals.

8/26/2006 06:41:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

I am quite sympathetic to all peoples that come to the US to better themselves.
On a personal level it is difficult to fault the individual's attemp to better their life.

The folks that enter the country illegally should be dealt with. This is a two pronged challenge. One at the frontier, the other in the heartland.

First and foremost the border should be secured, preventing further infiltrations. Then decisions about the disposition of the 12 plus million illegal residents can be made.

Mr Pence has made a resonable suggestion Securing the Borders and Reforming Immigration Without Amnesty but any solution is better then the staying the course.

Denial and illegality are not the hallmarks of a great Republic.

8/26/2006 06:43:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

The Assimilation figures of illegals are available also:
Want to look those up?

8/26/2006 06:43:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

Teresita,
Buchanan is talking about the ILLEGALS. You're so fixated with hate for a man who I would bet you've never read it's pathetic.
Certainly ANYONE who LEGALLY enters the country, wants to stay and applies and meets the qualifications of citizenship can do so. Buchanan is VERY FIRM ON THAT POINT. It's the 410,000 ILLEGAL ALIENS who enter, don't assimilate, not to mention are breaking our laws are his and my targets. NO ILLEGALS. Is it far for some Swede or Italian who just can't walk across the border to be aced out by some illiterate ILLEGAL alien.
For a putatively intelligent lesbian you are as ignorant as a dust bunny.
KEY WORD...ILLEGAL
His latest book doesn't even advocate mass deportation for ILLEGALS did you know that..hell no cause you refuse to inform youself,,it's just easier to remain ignorant and popular in the lesbian community.
By the way care to comment on UNIT 731 there kiddo?

8/26/2006 06:50:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Here's a story about an EXCEPTIONAL Family/EXCEPTIONAL Parents.
...along with some very sad statistics.
For senior Luz Elena Gutierrez, that path wound through hallways crowded with dispirited peers, around inexperienced teachers and veterans disillusioned by experience, over economic obstacles seldom faced by middle-class children, to the spotlight on stage at tonight's graduation as Fremont's valedictorian for the Class of 2006.

Almost 500 students will cross the stage with her.

But more than 100 of them will receive a certificate of completion instead of a diploma; they had the grades to graduate but could not pass the state exit exam.

And 1,500 of her freshman classmates will not be present; they left Fremont during the four years leading to graduation.

8/26/2006 06:52:00 PM  
Blogger allen said...

teresita; 2:52 PM

re: “Now kindly explain to me why you pose this question and how it is derived from anything I wrote earlier.”

Your being the author should go far to answering both questions. If you are still confused, check out earlier posts on other threads.

I do not know if you are of Japanese ancestry; however, to the extent that I derive from your comments that your opinions are shaped by Japanese lineage, I will not hesitate to so say. Should you discover that my opinions are influenced by my Jewish heritage, I will not be offended by your pointing that out; it has already happened without flaming.

To the extent my comments have castigated ILLEGAL Mexican interlopers, I make no apology. For those who wish to take that as an ethic slur, I suggest remedial reading. Neither melanin nor ethnicity, per se, has influenced my comments for the very simple reason that Jews come in every color and from every clime. While it should be unnecessary to explain the obvious, for the benefit of ash, Islam is an odious, dehumanizing, murderous ideology practiced viciously most recently, by those of ME visages. When it is practiced by those of the Amish genome, I will so indicate, indelicately.

On the other hand, teresita, if you insult my semi-aquiline nose, fat ear lobes, beard, or dentition, I will not be pleased, assuming your motivation meretricious (thanks) and puerile.

My life has been informed by the Marine Corps. My life has been informed by ancestors who have served the United States in every war. My life is informed by family and dear friends now serving. My life is informed by the memories of those lost in the line of duty. Therefore, with respect, you may feel free to criticize any policy or anyone responsible for developing or enforcing policy. However, on the day you insult an American kid, one of my Marines, you will not be surprised to learn that I will consider you a contemptible piece of civilian trash and most certainly a fraud.

Just to get off on the right foot, it was the behavior of those Japanese and German butchers you referenced earlier that explains why they needed killin’ and why Americans were not bashful in accommodation. Oh, at least 60% of the Waffen SS was non-German - hard to fit patriotism into that number.

By the by, I never expect you to stoop to the petty ridicule most often associated with spoiled, pre-pubescent males off medication. You are too good a man for that.

8/26/2006 06:54:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

T..yes you may call me a WASP hetero....

and why did you pull all your posts from the Forward Together discussion?

Was it your ignorant flamming comment followed by other flamming ignorant comments?

8/26/2006 06:58:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"She chose her friends as carefully as she picked her courses:
like-minded girls who met under the big tree on the quad for lunch and to discuss calculus, college applications and leads on financial aid.

It is no coincidence, she says, that all 10 of Fremont's top seniors are girls. "At a school like this, guys get pressured to do a lot of things … gangs, drugs. Boys make fun of you if you do your work. Girls don't have that kind of pressure."
"

8/26/2006 06:58:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

Teresita,
BTW by what sophistry does one square Taoism with lesbianism?


And if you think for minute I'll back off asking you about an explanation of UNIT 731 you're dream'in.Why? Because you claimed fellow Marines illegally machine gunned innocent Japs in the water at Guadalcanal. That was bull shit and you puked out on an honest dialog. And the Rape of Nanking by your illustrious ancestors ..so for get the wet hanky routine from me, your ancestors had it coming..ka-Boom.

8/26/2006 07:08:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

This is no longer available online from the LA Times:

""In other words, people are coming to the conclusion we got to do something about a system that isn't working, President Bush said at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, in southeastern New Mexico about 100 miles from the Mexican border."
---
Earth to POTUS:
Citizens in "impacted areas" are not "coming" to a conclusion.
...and to talk about the "system" not working 5 years after 9-11, when you have not even used the authority you are supposed to use by law, or enforced existing laws at Pre-9-11 levels, is not forthright, nor is it inspirational or honorable.

8/26/2006 07:15:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

PossumTater to Habu3:
I thought you told me...

8/26/2006 07:17:00 PM  
Blogger rufus said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

8/26/2006 07:20:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Bush's unspoken position is:
I will start enforcing the law, when you pass the legislation I want.
Honest.
Even if that turned out to be true, it fails to address that he has no excuse for refusing to enforce existing law and some laws that have already been recently passed, including some he signed regarding border security.

8/26/2006 07:23:00 PM  
Blogger The Mad Fiddler said...

Cambridge Conference Correspondence

The link above is to a highly-eclectic set of posts, all from September of 2001, just before the 9-11 business, so they’re blissfully unpolitical... mostly.

Several interesting bits:

• On 23 April 2001, two infrasound detection arrays — built to monitor nuclear testing and seismic events — recorded the low-frequency report from the atmospheric explosion of a meteorite over the mid-Pacific Ocean. The explosion is calculated to have been comparable to that of several thousand tons of TNT, in the same order of magnitude as the Hiroshima and Nagasaki atomic detonations. Estimated size of the mass was between two and three meters diameter, and the detector arrays were located at the Scripps Institute of Oceanography in San Diego, 1,800 kilometers from the blast, and another in Germany 11,000 kilometers distant.

• Extended interview with Bjorn Lomborg, Danish professor of Statistics who began questioning the Ecofanatic party line after he had his students a class exercise do a sustained batch of fact-checking on a book by Libertarian economist Julian Simon. The attempt to debunk his facts finally led Lomborg instead to re-evaluate his own beliefs. He went on to write his own book “The Skeptical Environmentalist”

• Several articles describing the efforts of various arms manufacturers to develop “green” rocket propellants and warheads that don’t pollute with metals and chlorine components. May sound nuts, but the article points out that the vast bulk of missiles end up launched in the user’s home territory, in training exercises, rather than in actual combat on foreign soil.

8/26/2006 07:25:00 PM  
Blogger luc said...

Teresita,

I posted a few threads back that, based on the tenor of your comments in that thread, in my opinion you were a troll. I obviously do not feel the need to apologize for my opinions as I am sure you do not apologize for your opinions! Opinions are beliefs and I think we should be free to express them as long as we are not vulgar, advocate harm to somebody or mayhem in general.
The opinions I express in public are open to judgment just as your behavior the other day after I expressed my opinion and, we like it or not, we both have to live with that fact.
As another of my opinions, I can say that I believe that a person who has reached a certain level of maturity does not allow a stranger to control their behavior by reacting childishly to a harmless comment. I will end my post by repeating what I said 8/24/2006 12:26:40 PM
“As this is not a personal attack, just a personal opinion based on observation, I continue to wish you a good day!”

8/26/2006 07:29:00 PM  
Blogger The Mad Fiddler said...

The impoverished of the world have ALWAYS perceived the United States as a land of plenty, and tried their damnedest to get here. The rules we have set up within our own culture are sufficiently crazed to destroy the country even if we did not have the additional problem of illegal immigrants flooding in to take advantage of those rules.

Among the alleged intelligentsia in the U.S. (as a legacy of the “dead hand” of Marxist ideology that has found haven primarily in tenured academic and un-accountable government posts, as in the case of a certain Carter-appointed Detroit Judge) there is an unchallenged set of assumptions that drive legislation, adminstrative edicts, and the criteria governing the distribution of and access to services and funds:

• White Europeans are intrinsically oppressors.
• The legacy of White European Oppression against all other ethnic groups and cultures automatically qualifies them as victims deserving of constant apologies and compensation.
• Even certain White Europeans can be elevated to the honored status of Victims of White European Oppression, so long as they can be seen to be selected for discrimination because of behaviors or attitudes that have been unfairly criminalized or sanctioned by the Mainstream as violation of Mainstream traditional values.
• Of course, anyone who disagrees with these self-evident facts is clearly part of the Structure of Oppression.

This is the logical extension of the “Robin Hood” mythology —
i.e., that it is fair and just to commit violence against those that possess any wealth and redistribute the spoils of that violence to the poor, on the supposition that those who had wealth had stolen it from those who did not.

That may at times in certain medieval feudal societies have been an accurate portrayal of all the parties. The reasoning would of course apply equally to ANY autocratic society with a tiny aristocracy enjoying wealth and privilege at the expense of a vast oppressed majority, such as the Maya, the Aztec, and the Inca in the Americas, Russia under the Tsars and then under Soviet rule, Japan under fifteen generations of Edo Shogunate, China — the list could go on for pages.

More importantly, there is an even more infantile set of assumptions that underpins the “Robin Hood” mythology.
• Bad people STEAL; Good people SHARE.
• There’s plenty to go around, if everyone would SHARE.
• The reason EVERYONE isn’t wealthy is that bad people have STOLEN from good people.
• The solution to make everyone Wealthy is to take stuff away from people who have it (They STOLE it, remember?) and GIVE it (Well, some of it... Hey, I’m the Good guy, because I’m the one that figured this all out, so I get to decide!) to the people that Don’t have stuff.

This is the fundamental rationale behind our welfare system, and our healthcare system. The absolute unquestioned assumption is that there is un-ending abundance in the system — NOT that the abundance is created by anyone’s labor or painstaking cultivation.

8/26/2006 07:37:00 PM  
Blogger Jamie Irons said...

The views of Andrew J. Bacevich might, at least in part, appeal to Trish. Here is the last paragraph of his article "The Islamic Way of War."



In the Middle East and more broadly in our relations with the Islamic world, we face difficult and dangerous problems, more than a few of them problems to which we ourselves have contributed. Those problems will become more daunting still, for us and for Israel, should a nation like Iran succeed in acquiring nuclear weapons. But as events in Iraq and now in southern Lebanon make clear, reliance on the sword alone will not provide a solution to those problems. We must be strong and we must be vigilant. But we also need to be smart, and getting smart means ending our infatuation with war and rediscovering the possibilities of politics.

Jamie Irons

8/26/2006 07:40:00 PM  
Blogger rufus said...

Remember those rumors about how Bush gave Maliki until the end of September to get it together? Mohammed thinks there's something to it. Iraq the Model

For what it's worth (not much, for sure,) so do I. I just don't know if he was bluffing, or not; I suspect he was. But .....

8/26/2006 07:44:00 PM  
Blogger luc said...

jamie irons,
“What the Islamic Way of War does mean to both Israel and to the United States is this: the Arabs now possess—and know that they possess—the capacity to deny us victory, especially in any altercation that occurs on their own turf and among their own people.” Andrew J. Bacevich

Is the glass half full or half empty?

Do the Arabs possess the capacity to deny us victory or they have learned how to use against ourselves our capacity for compassion? It seems to me that the only thing they posses for now is the capacity to die and make us feel guilty; this may change in a short time.

8/26/2006 07:54:00 PM  
Blogger Jamie Irons said...

Fiddler,

You wrote:

This is the fundamental rationale behind our welfare system, and our healthcare system. The absolute unquestioned assumption is that there is un-ending abundance in the system — NOT that the abundance is created by anyone’s labor or painstaking cultivation...

It's astonishing to me that people wish to argue that healthcare is a right. This weird notion seems to spring from an idea that nobody ought to be ill or suffer (and everyone with a heart can certainly wish that were the case), but the tragic fact is that even with the best health care in the world we get sick and die. Nobody seems to want to admit that their insistence on this "right" is really a claim on some doctor's or nurse's or other health care professional's limited time, which means it is a claim on his or her money.

Being a medically inclined psychiatrist who started out as a family physician and whose work is mostly consulting with physicians and surgeons, it has become clear to me after many years of experience that an enormous part of the health care budget (I am speaking here solely about adults) goes to two groups: people who shamelessly suck up resources, but who aren't all that sick and, sadly, people with very serious problems, whose problems we are only able, at best, to ameliorate.

We need to think a lot more deeply about health care as a "right."


Jamie Irons

8/26/2006 08:01:00 PM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

desert rat said:

First and foremost the border should be secured, preventing further infiltrations. Then decisions about the disposition of the 12 plus million illegal residents can be made.

Agreed. This is especially important if Hugo Chavez keeps being buddies with that asshole in Iran. He might make Venezuela the wedge by which terrorist maggots worm their way into the US via Central America.

8/26/2006 08:02:00 PM  
Blogger rufus said...

I certainly can't recall seeing any big Islamist "Victories," lately. As for us: One Big Victory in Afghanistan, and we're ahead 15 - 0 in Iraq, going into the bottom of the 8th.

If we don't lose our nerve, the Islamists are screwed.

8/26/2006 08:06:00 PM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

jamie irons said:

it has become clear to me after many years of experience that an enormous part of the health care budget (I am speaking here solely about adults) goes to two groups: people who shamelessly suck up resources, but who aren't all that sick and, sadly, people with very serious problems, whose problems we are only able, at best, to ameliorate.


You forgot two other suckers-of-resources: Those who file frivolous lawsuits like other people buy lottery tickets, hoping for a multi-million dollar payout, and those who insure doctors against that happening.

Solution: Liability limits coupled with the state underwriting malpractice insurance (to get the lawyers out of the business altogether). If society has an interest in defining marriage as this or that to promote the FAMILY, surely there there is a societal interest in keeping good FAMILY doctors around rather than watching them flee to states that DO limit liabilities.

8/26/2006 08:14:00 PM  
Blogger rufus said...

I think that even the "Moonbats" will eventually come to the conclusion that These People have to die.

8/26/2006 08:20:00 PM  
Blogger The Mad Fiddler said...

An important related assumption of the system (which I describe in infantile idiom to accentuate its “innocence”) is this:

• Anything bad that happens has to be someone’s fault; Therefor, identifying and punishing the person who is at fault will correct the original bad thing.

8/26/2006 08:27:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

There has always been, in the recorded history of mankind talk of "peace". However that is as parseable a word as Bill Clinton showed us "is" is.
The Inuits have over forty words to describe snow. It is so much their environment that the need to know what kind of snow is a life and death proposition.
So it goes with peace. To the Marxist and Islamists it means when all resistence to their philosophy has been overcome, by any means. To most Americans it means, hey, you do your thing and I'll do mind, just stay within the laws and don't hassle me.
Peace is ephemeral, NEVER, to be permanent in this life. War is ETERNAL on Earth and those that are prepared and stay prepared avoid it as much as they can.
I laugh when I hear of "peace talks", knowing it means different things to each party and thus is but a melting snowflake on a calcined Earth.

8/26/2006 08:28:00 PM  
Blogger Jamie Irons said...

Teresita,

You are quite right about the malpractice problem, and your proposed solution just might work...

The malpractice issue for Ob-Gyn's is completely out of control.


Jamie Irons

8/26/2006 08:29:00 PM  
Blogger The Mad Fiddler said...

Amazing how the “sophisticated” denizens of the Liberal cocktail set can precisely reckon the anticipated returns on their debentures and hedged commodities speculations, send a check for the World Council of Churches to use to promote Marxist atheist propaganda in the third world, and simultaneously chuckle indulgently at the ignorant jungle dwellers who believe that all sickness is caused by curses and spells.

8/26/2006 08:34:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Terisita Said,
"You forgot two other suckers-of-resources: Those who file frivolous lawsuits like other people buy lottery tickets."
---
Stock in Trade for Illegals in LA is to stage phoney accidents.
(Real crashes that aren't accidents)

10's of thousands of Californians have been involved in real accidents with illegals having no insurance and no license.
They walk.
The Police in many areas are PROHIBITED from asking about a persons legal status re: immigration.

The California citizens injured monetarily, physically, and sometimes fatally are real people with real families and real insurance that they pay a great deal for as they do for schools that are no longer primarily places of learning.
---
Car theft in many areas is a thriving business.

8/26/2006 08:41:00 PM  
Blogger luc said...

jamie,
a solution similar to that proposed by teresita has been used by some provinces in Canada with respect to car insurance and/or the personal injury aspect of that insurance where the province underwrites the insurance and also they are using the "no fault" system. Since then, insurance rates have stopped their veriginous climbing. So that type of system is proven to work.

8/26/2006 08:43:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

ISLAMIC TRUTH GROUP
http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=6292

Established in 1999 "to increase Islamic knowledge so that Muslims become Allah's viceroys on earth," the Great Britain-based Islamic Truth Group (ITG) describes itself as "part of the Muslim Unification Council," a worldwide organization dedicated to re-unifying the Muslim ummah [people or nation] into one super state [Al-Khilafah, "the Caliphate"] that "will dominate world politics for all mankind, forever." Such a Caliphate would be governed by strict Islamic law, or Sharia. "English Law is not divine law like Shariah Law," says ITG. "Don't follow it!"

In late October 2001, a few weeks after the terrorist attacks of 9/11, CNS News reported that "the Islamic Truth Group has been soliciting for volunteers to fight a jihad (holy war) in Afghanistan amongst Muslims living in countries neighboring the central Asian nation. The group's website said: 'Civilians must be part of the struggle against the forces of Satan and the Afghan Northern Alliance. … It is time for action. Head to the border NOW"
Let's not take a knife to a gunfight ...nuke Iran and forget the UN crap. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. Trying to politic our way out of this fight is simply allowing them to gain more ground.

8/26/2006 08:43:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Fiddler 08:34:52 PM,
Or practice one-sided economics like the President that tallies the benefits, but few of the REAL COSTS of illegals.
Not to mention the multitude of hidden future costs, social, monetary, medical and public safety/security.

8/26/2006 08:45:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"accounting"

8/26/2006 08:45:00 PM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

The Mad Fiddler wrote:

• Anything bad that happens has to be someone’s fault; Therefor, identifying and punishing the person who is at fault will correct the original bad thing.

Corollary: Punishing the great-great-great-great grandchildren of the bad person by demanding reparations is also acceptable.

8/26/2006 08:50:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Jamie 08:29:01 PM, several years ago we heard people talking about California fixing that problem to some extent.
I think CA is still better than the sad average, no?
There is one notorius state in the South that is an egregious abuser.

8/26/2006 08:50:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

You certainly pick and choose what you care to respond to, Teresita, after discharging your shotgun of shakey claims.

8/26/2006 08:52:00 PM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

allen said:

By the by, I never expect you to stoop to the petty ridicule most often associated with spoiled, pre-pubescent males off medication. You are too good a man for that.

Allen, there may come a time when you want to know what's wrong. This post of yours will be what's wrong.

8/26/2006 08:58:00 PM  
Blogger rufus said...

Some more of that Inept Bush Foreign Policy.

8/26/2006 09:02:00 PM  
Blogger trish said...

What do you think about the Bacevich article, jamie?

8/26/2006 09:10:00 PM  
Blogger Woman Catholic said...

The Mad Fiddler wrote:

• The solution to make everyone Wealthy is to take stuff away from people who have it (They STOLE it, remember?) and GIVE it (Well, some of it... Hey, I’m the Good guy, because I’m the one that figured this all out, so I get to decide!) to the people that Don’t have stuff.

You've seen those quizes where they ask a few questions and plot you on a grid according to your political stances? Much of a person's politics can be determined by how much they follow two of the Ten Commandments:

Thou shalt not covet (0%-100%)
Thou shalt not kill (0%-100%)

*If you have 0% coveting and 0% killing, you believe the rich should keep their money and we should not fight wars or execute people (Taoist).

*If you have 100% coveting and 0% killing, you believe the rich should be taxed to help the poor, and we should not fight wars or execute people (Democrat).

*If you have 0% coveting and 100% killing, you believe the rich should keep their money and we should fight wars and execute people (Republican).

*If you have 100% coveting and 100% killing, you believe the rich should be taxed to help the poor, and we should fight wars and execute people (Communist China).

8/26/2006 09:11:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

Demented Teresita said:

"Corollary: Punishing the great-great-great-great grandchildren of the bad person by demanding reparations is also acceptable."

OMG you've no credibility whatsoever. in your world you are a Taoist who doesn't conform to Taoism. In your world having an opinion is more important than having facts on which to base them.
You need another layer of tin foil on that hat.
Unit 731 ..you're mute because there is no defense...so instead how about a few comments on the Japanese enslaving Korean women as sex slaves for their troops. Is that part of the Bushido Honor..... Bushido, then, is the code of moral principles which the samurai were required or instructed to observe... More frequently it is a code unuttered and unwritten... It was an organic growth of decades and centuries of military career."
Japan in that era until we conquered them didn't know the meaning of honor..the Occidentals had to civilize your culture...cute bonzai trees alone don't do it.

8/26/2006 09:14:00 PM  
Blogger Jamie Irons said...

Trish,

You asked:

What do you think about the Bacevich article?

I'm not sure yet; it did make me think. His point about the adaptations our enemies have made certainly seems right. But are those adaptations really anything truly novel? Or are they just another variation of the stuff the "Small Wars Manual" addresses? Obviously I'm way out of my depth here.

It does seem to me we have to thoroughly rethink our approach to the Islamists, unless by some series of miracles Iraq works out, as Rufus thinks it will.


Jamie Irons

8/26/2006 09:17:00 PM  
Blogger allen said...

teresita: 8:58 PM

I can live with it.

8/26/2006 09:19:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

teresita lectured:

If you have 0% coveting and 0% killing, you believe the rich should keep their money and we should not fight wars or execute people (Taoist).

You are in no position to instruct anyone on the WAY. Taoist is just a word to you. I have cited ZEN MASTERs today that expose you as a fraud. perhaps you mean you are a reformed-Taoist-do-what-i-want.
please do not lecture us on Taoism.

8/26/2006 09:21:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Possumtater likes Bonzai Trees.
Climbs up em and pretends
he's King Tater.
(Holding little Daisyfresh in his protective paw.)

8/26/2006 09:23:00 PM  
Blogger rufus said...

Niall Ferguson asks an interesting question. "What if they HAD blown up The Jets?

h/t tigerhawk

8/26/2006 09:24:00 PM  
Blogger trish said...

It's a good answer, jamie.

8/26/2006 09:25:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

Bushido, then, is the code of moral principles which the samurai were required or instructed to observe... More frequently it is a code unuttered and unwritten... It was an organic growth of decades and centuries of military career."

sounds more like an excuse for anarchy,raping and pillaging...an unwritten "honor" code..tell it to Tojo's ancestors.

8/26/2006 09:28:00 PM  
Blogger luc said...

rufus said...
Some more of that Inept Bush Foreign Policy.
8/26/2006 09:02:19 PM

When I look at a country like NoKo, which has nothing except some missile and possibly in the near future nukes, and then think of Kerry's suggestion that we should have unilateral engagement, I cannot help but ask for what reason? Do we want to but missiles or nukes from them?
The only other alternative to this type of commerce is to pay them protection, just like with the Mafia. It is astounding, if you think, that someone aspiring to to be president of the only remaining superpower advocates paying protection. If anyone wonders if he would accept dhimmitude he has already given the answer!

8/26/2006 09:31:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

Rufus,
Thanks for the many excellent links to some great information.
The recipe for corn and collard soup sounds great.

Hope you're do'in swell and keep that good info com'in.

8/26/2006 09:32:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

09:28:49 PM
Tater wouldn't put up with Tojo, not for a minute.

8/26/2006 09:33:00 PM  
Blogger allen said...

teresita,

I LOVE lesbians. I am a dancin’ fool. One of the best times I have ever had was single handedly dancing with a table peopled by six lesbians. Goodness me! They, me, and two bottles of Campaign and we had the wedding party moving like there was a fresh missionary in the pot. Obviously, you, darling, have been wanting for fun.

Nothing personal, but your posts are fair game, with no quarter given. I cannot wait.

8/26/2006 09:34:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

You and your damned Margarita Hour.

8/26/2006 09:39:00 PM  
Blogger rufus said...

Bacevich's article is just too silly for a tired redneck to respond to. I wouldn't respond even if I wasn't tired. It's just babble.

The fact that we're trying to do somethng that's never been done before, and didn't get it done, yesterday, means we're in a "fight we can't win?"

BS Pure BS

8/26/2006 09:40:00 PM  
Blogger Jamie Irons said...

Trish,

Thanks!

;-)


Jamie Irons

8/26/2006 09:41:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Rufus,
Can't you even grant it
"High Falutin BS?"

8/26/2006 09:42:00 PM  
Blogger trish said...

"It does seem to me we have to thoroughly rethink our approach to the Islamists, unless by some series of miracles Iraq works out, as Rufus thinks it will."

We cannot rethink - or re-do - our approach while OIF is ondoing. We're rather stuck.

8/26/2006 09:42:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

What if Broadway Joe had Flamed Out, and the Jets crashed?

8/26/2006 09:43:00 PM  
Blogger Jamie Irons said...

Rufus,

Read Bacevich when you're not so tired.

I don't think what he says is that outrageous.

But again, I am way out of my depth discussing these matters...

;-)


Jamie Irons

8/26/2006 09:43:00 PM  
Blogger trish said...

Sorry:

'ongoing'

8/26/2006 09:44:00 PM  
Blogger rufus said...

No Pantyhose commercials? Our "culture" would have never been the same.

8/26/2006 09:45:00 PM  
Blogger rufus said...

I just can't get up to the "highfalutin" level, Doug; sorry.

8/26/2006 09:46:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

Niall Ferguson (HT Rufus) writing in the Telegraph carries his readers through a series of "what ifs" concerning the bombing plot stopped by the Brits on 8/26.
He said in part toward the end.

"8/26 could have been the trigger for the next English civil war."

To our US Muslim community. I would suspect that another 9/11 day will result in great consternation for your community.
You "moderate" Islamists have done practically nothing to repudiate the continuing terrorism of Islam. Comission or omission? Your moderate voices need to be heard LOUD and CLEAR condeming Islamic terror if you expect peace in our time. Come forward and volunteer to translate documents, offer a way toward victory over insane ideology. To remain mute is a dangerous gambit.

8/26/2006 09:54:00 PM  
Blogger Jamie Irons said...

Rufus,

That Niall Ferguson piece was superb. He is one of the more interesting thinkers out there.

What I conclude from his analysis is that Great Britain's historic "special relationship" with the U.S. may already be on its last legs. A terrible loss.

Jamie Irons

8/26/2006 09:55:00 PM  
Blogger rufus said...

Jamie, I'm too tired to write, but I'm quite certain I would have the same opinion no matter how much sleep I had. I mean, it's just silly. We're helping the Iraqi's build an Army and Police Force, and helping them root out a bunch of savages that can't do anything but blow themselves up, and plant bombs in children's soccer fields.

Lebanon? Look at whats left of the "battlefield," and tell me what you see. Do you see a "Victorious" Hezbollah, standing strong, and proud, brandishing the superior arms for all the world to see? Not Quite?

The only Islamic "Victory" you can show me is the Taliban against the Russians; and, that was accomplished only when we supplied them with several hundred state of the art helo-killing stingers. And, calling the Russians in Afghanistan a "Modern" Army would be quite a stretch, anyway.

It's just timely nonsense.

8/26/2006 10:03:00 PM  
Blogger allen said...

teresita,

To stay on topic, teresita, I love the Marine Corps, more than dancing with the daughters of Sappho.

You give me three Marines and I have a fire-team; give me four more and I have the makings of a squad; give me one more and I have VICTORY.

We don’t care what the Army, Navy, or Air Force do. Our motto is simple, deaths per thousand notwithstanding, “Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shaddow of death…” That is why we can spit in the eye of any contender and say, “Death before dishonor!”

8/26/2006 10:04:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

Doug,

what about the Jets and the Sharks..what would have happened to Natalie at Catalina?
Benny and the Jets ..well Benny is a flam'in "surgeon de fruit" (fruit sucker)

8/26/2006 10:10:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

Doug,
I don't have grief with dykes as long as their not too butch.

8/26/2006 10:11:00 PM  
Blogger rufus said...

Jamie, it was always overplayed. Somewhere along the line Americans got the idea that the British man on the street liked Americans. It's never been so. We left them for God's sake. Then, we committed the unpardonable sin of out-stripping them in economic and military terms.

In WWII they said there were only 3 things wrong with the Americans:
(1) They're "Overpaid"

(2) They're "Oversexed."

(3) They're "Over here."

They meant it.

8/26/2006 10:11:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

It's an interesting cultural development when groups can call themselves inflamatory names and laugh at it but when the same word is used by a non group member it becomes a causus belli.
And then there's "White Men Can't Jump" ....pleeszzz.

8/26/2006 10:14:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Habu,
What happened to your "Special Relationship" with Teresita?
Is it, like the US/British one that Mr Ferguson references already on its last legs also?

8/26/2006 10:14:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Glad those Marines got to see the ladies out stripping, if only partially.

8/26/2006 10:16:00 PM  
Blogger Bob said...

Here's another way to look at it: All the leftists who were screaming about how our military death rates were unsustainable in the early 80's were right and should be listened to now. What? There weren't any? Maybe that's why I don't listen to any of them...

8/26/2006 10:26:00 PM  
Blogger Jamie Irons said...

Sappho:

Mete moi mele mete melitta...

For me no longer the honey nor the honeybee...


Touching fragment, and such are practically all she left us. The only complete poem, her hymn to Aphrodite, was memorably translated by Jim Powell, who taught me to read Homer in Greek...


Jamie Irons

8/26/2006 10:27:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

Doug,
I think I have a very special relationship with Teresita. It is one of warm mutual respect and the charm of an abattoir.

8/26/2006 10:28:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

But now I seek repose.

Engaging the FlatEarth people is somewhat amusing but one does need ones sleep.

Best to all.

8/26/2006 10:32:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_3 said...

jamie, διαβάζετε στα ελληνικά

8/26/2006 10:35:00 PM  
Blogger luc said...

rufus said... 8/26/2006 10:03:34 PM

“It's just timely nonsense.”

I agree with your point of view. As I posted earlier the only thing new the Muslims possess, until Iran gets nukes, is an illusion that they have become invincible, while in reality it is only continuous MSM propaganda describing their “victories” coupled with our lack of resolve to finish the fight. I submit that what is happening in Iraq since the war ended after only three weeks is not that much different from what happened to the German army in Yugoslavia during WWII. The difference is that the Germans did not worry about civilian casualties and so they managed to fairly well slow down the partisans.
It is amazing how the MSM has invented a “new” weapon for the Iraq; the IED or more ominous sounding VBIED. What is the real difference between these “new” weapons used by the insurgents in Iraq and the mines, dynamite and bubby traps used by the partisans in Yugoslavia? Not much! The main difference is the nationality of the dead soldiers and our society’s inability to accept casualties unless they are provoked by “super special weapons” wielded by “super smart worriers”. If I want to be cynical I would say that probably the Pentagon finds the idea of “super mines” useful to explain casualties; because as Wretchard’s post shows this is the obsession even if the numbers are very low.
With respect to Andrew J. Bacevich’s article referred to by Jamie, I would like to submit that the reason some find it seductive is because it proposes no ACTION only more study on how we should change our ways. At this point I will confess that Andrew J. Bacevich’s most recent book title, “The New American Militarism” sounds to me like something coming from the Soviet propaganda machine.
Good night!

8/26/2006 10:46:00 PM  
Blogger Jamie Irons said...

Habu,

Don't you mean

διαβάστε στα ελληνικά...

?



;-)


Jamie Irons

8/26/2006 10:53:00 PM  
Blogger Jamie Irons said...

καλή νύχτα, everybody...



Jamie Irons

8/26/2006 10:54:00 PM  
Blogger rufus said...

Bob, I just spent an excellent half hour wandering around that site you posted. Thanks

G'nite all, you too, P'Tater, wherever you are.

8/26/2006 10:57:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

I didn't realize Homer read Greek.
Did he teach Bart anything?

8/26/2006 11:14:00 PM  
Blogger bobalharb said...

If reparations are going to be passed out, I want some too. After all, great,great,great unca Elmer fought on the Union side, and helped free the slaves, suffering himself in the process. He didn't get squat out of it personally, at least in the normal worldly sense; seems only fair his ancestor should cash in the chip.

Rewarding the great,great,great descendant of the good person is also acceptable.

I'm not being serious of course.

8/26/2006 11:16:00 PM  

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