Saturday, August 26, 2006

Through the unknown, remembered gate

The Washington Post looks at the statistical danger of duty in Iraq. The article, written by a Professor of Demography at the University of Pennsylvania, begins by comparing the risk of death in Iraq with other situations. What's not captured in this comparison is the danger of wounds. It would be interesting to line up the risk of say, losing a single limb in a civilian situation would be to an equivalent event in Iraq. But for deaths the situation is as follows:


Between March 21, 2003, when the first military death was recorded in Iraq, and March 31, 2006, there were 2,321 deaths among American troops in Iraq. Seventy-nine percent were a result of action by hostile forces. Troops spent a total of 592,002 "person-years" in Iraq during this period. The ratio of deaths to person-years, .00392, or 3.92 deaths per 1,000 person-years, is the death rate of military personnel in Iraq.

How does this rate compare with that in other groups? One meaningful comparison is to the civilian population of the United States. That rate was 8.42 per 1,000 in 2003, more than twice that for military personnel in Iraq. The comparison is imperfect, of course, because a much higher fraction of the American population is elderly and subject to higher death rates from degenerative diseases. The death rate for U.S. men ages 18 to 39 in 2003 was 1.53 per 1,000 -- 39 percent of that of troops in Iraq. But one can also find something equivalent to combat conditions on home soil. The death rate for African American men ages 20 to 34 in Philadelphia was 4.37 per 1,000 in 2002, 11 percent higher than among troops in Iraq. Slightly more than half the Philadelphia deaths were homicides.

However, what really affects the risk of dying is not so much location -- being in Iraq versus not being in Iraq -- so much as what a person might be doing. All other things being equal the risk of death is largely borne by the ground forces. In particular, although the Wapo article doesn't say it, by people in the combat arms. Unsurprisingly, the highest risk is borne by young men in ground combat specialties.

Marines are paying the highest toll in Iraq. Their death rate is more than double that of the Army, 10 times higher than that of the Navy and 20 times higher than for the Air Force. In fact, those in the Navy and Air Force have substantially lower death rates than civilian men ages 20 to 34. ... Lieutenants have the highest mortality of any rank in the Army, 19 percent higher than all Army troops combined. Marine Corps lieutenants have 11 percent higher mortality than all Marines. But the single highest-mortality group in any service consists of lance corporals in the Marines, whose death risk is 3.3 times that of all troops in Iraq.

What you do counts far more than what you are with respect to rank, age, gender or ethnic background. Women, who are generally not assigned to combat specialties have a death rate 18% of men. Blacks have a death risk 30 to 40 % lower than non-blacks because so many women in the service are black they pull down the average.

Commentary

Iraq may have diverged from the historical norm in that it is comparatively less deadly than previous wars, even compared to lower intensity conflicts like Vietnam, which had a death rate 5.6 times greater; but like every other war in history its dangers are chiefly borne by men in physical contact with the enemy. In this case the risk load is carried by the ground forces, the enemy having no air force or navy to compete. Commentators will likely point out that death rates in Iraq are meaningless because "unlike previous wars" one cannot expect a neat ending to the fighting there. In an academic sense this point seems fair enough. But many of the wars of the 20th century were delimited chiefly by convention rather than effect. The Great War and World War 2 are now widely regarded as one upheaval punctuated by an Armistice. And 9 million people died in the Great War so that it would take another 60 million deaths to finish the job in World War 2. World War 2 "ended" but it was so closely succeeded by the oddly-named Cold War that there some senior enlisted men in Vietnam were also veterans of World War 2 and Korea.

A British analogue to the Washington Post article did a statistical analysis of British casualties in Iraq and noted that in a fight against another open-ended terrorist enemy, the IRA killed twice as many British soldiers in one year as the cream of the Jihad have managed to inflict on British troops in three.

the IRA killed twice as many soldiers in one year as Iraqi insurgents have killed in three. ... During the conflict in Northern Ireland from 1969 to 1997, between the British Army and the Irish Republican Army (IRA), 763 British military personnel died. On top of that, over 300 of the British Army's allies in Northern Ireland - the Royal Ulster Constabulary police force - were killed.

In the space of one year - 1972, at the height of 'the Troubles' - the IRA killed more than twice the number of British military and police personnel as Iraqis have killed over three years. The IRA killed 103 British Army personnel, as well as 43 of Britain's local allied forces in the Royal Ulster Constabulary and the Ulster Defence Regiment and Royal Irish Regiment. That makes a total of 146 military or police personnel killed by enemy action in one year in Northern Ireland compared with 54 killed by enemy action in Iraq in more than three years.

Crucially, "most British ministers and much of the media refused even to call the conflict in Northern Ireland a war". And this packaging, and perhaps the fact that Ireland was considered to be a vital British interest, seemed to have made all the difference.

there were few demands among opposition politicians and journalists for the troops to be withdrawn from Northern Ireland, and military families did not petition or visit Downing Street demanding that the engagement in Northern Ireland be brought to an end. This shows that the impact of casualty figures on the public consciousness is shaped more by moral and political factors than by the real facts and figures of war. So a higher number of fatalities in Northern Ireland in 1972 had a less demoralising effect on military families and the British public than has a relatively small number of deaths in Iraq over a period of three years.

Even Michael Yon wondered whether there was anything obviously special about Iraq besides was media attention. The troops in Afghanistan were fighting a terrorist enemy and the goal of creating a stable Afghanistan in an area sandwiched between Pakistan and Iran was surely be no less daunting than creating a functional Iraq. And yet:

Some troops have begun calling the battle for Afghanistan “the Forgotten War.” … When it comes to national and media attention, Iraq is not much better, but since there are roughly six or seven times more troops in Iraq, it might seem that our soldiers there would get more recognition. An Army officer told me recently that per capita casualties for Afghanistan and Iraq are nearly the same. Although six times as much coverage would be about right, mathematically, most soldiers I encountered who were serving in Iraq told me they had never seen a journalist there.

But so it goes.

141 Comments:

Blogger exhelodrvr1 said...

From the segment on Northern Ireland:

"This shows that the impact of casualty figures on the public consciousness is shaped more by moral and political factors than by the real facts and figures of war. "

I think it shaped more by the media presentation than by moral and political factors. (I suppose that falls into the "political" realm to some extent.) From what I have seen, even those who support the President and the war tend to have a very skewed perception of the situation in Iraq, unless they are part of the fraction who go out of their way to keep informed. (The same has always applied to the views people have on the Israel-Palestinian issue.)

8/26/2006 07:47:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

"However, what really affects the risk of dying is not so much location -- being in Iraq versus not being in Iraq -- so much as what a person might be doing.

All other things being equal the risk of death is largely borne by the ground forces. In particular, although the Wapo article doesn't say it, by people in the combat arms. Unsurprisingly, the highest risk is borne by young men in ground combat specialties.
"
---
In WWII, some of the highest losses, percentage wise, were suffered by bomber crews, but the mission was accomplished.
Now, the mission could be accomplished with very little loss of Air Force lives.
But it is not.

8/26/2006 07:52:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

E3 Marines, "whose death risk is 3.3 times that of all troops in Iraq" and young Army Lt's, leading from the front, take the highest casualties.

The Marine IRR call up will be selecting E3 & 4's. Perhaps the few that were promoted to E5 and did not reenlist.

The comparison between Northern Ireland and Iraq and how the Brits percieved the different struggles is interesting. The Mohammedans still not considered a "real" threat to England by most Brits.

Just as it is here, only more so.
But what else is to be expected when the Leaders mouth the praises of the Religion of Peace.

8/26/2006 07:52:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

For historical perspective,
think "Tikrit."

8/26/2006 07:53:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

For a ground level view, think
Fallujah I and Wretchard's beautiful description of the Marine effort there.
Prior to political intervention.

8/26/2006 07:57:00 AM  
Blogger Teresita said...

wretchard

Although six times as much coverage would be about right, mathematically, most soldiers I encountered who were serving in Iraq told me they had never seen a journalist there.

Not surprising. The procedure is to stay in the Green Zone working the phones (and the Adobe Photoshop program) and rely on Iraqi "stringers" to do your reporting, who, by the way, only get paid if the story is accepted for publication.

8/26/2006 08:08:00 AM  
Blogger Meme chose said...

It took centuries of violence and loss to bring peace and prosperity to Ireland, a small country with between 5% and 10% of Britain's population, and immediately next door. Plus, the community being protected were British citizens, and of a common ethnic origin to boot.

It's hardly surprising that the British people blanch at the prospect of taking on a similar task in relation to a billion Muslims half way round the globe, even as part of an alliance with the US.

What the pacificists and others in Europe recoil from is the European experience, which is that trying to do good to a declared enemy is futile before you have soundly defeated him (i.e. totally destroyed the bulk of his fighting forces and a good number of his cities). The European experience has been that before trying to do any effective sort of good to a violent opponent, you have to dish out a great deal of bad.

This is, as Wretchard suggests, exactly the lesson of the conflict which was not stopped by the armistice in 1918, and continued until total victory (the necessary precursor to 'do-gooding' with any prospect of success) was achieved 1946.

It is not incoherent to argue that, despite and indeed by means of it's current commitment to Afghanistan and Iraq, the US is on a quixotic quest to ignore this reality for a few years (exactly as it was during the 1930's). In that sense, if one can say this without denigrating the efforts of those on the ground, it is an unserious effort.

8/26/2006 08:22:00 AM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

How many dead bad guys? And of them, how many were locals and how many were imports from Iran, Saudi, etc.?

And ... do we know if they're still coming in to try to bag their very own American?

8/26/2006 08:34:00 AM  
Blogger Deuce ☂ said...

Few Americans who go to England see this. All should. Take some kleenex.


http://www.roll-of-honour.com/
Cambridgeshire/
MadingleyUSACemetery.html

8/26/2006 08:54:00 AM  
Blogger Teresita said...

wretchard said:

Some troops have begun calling the battle for Afghanistan “the Forgotten War.

They must have forgotten that the Korean War was the "Forgotten War". That war, too, had the support of the United Nations, while the following police action (Vietnam) was America unilaterally (in essence) trying to keep the status quo in an entity vacated by a European imperial force (France). It was 1914 when the Brits came to Iraq to "liberate" it. The wheel in the sky keeps on turnin'.

8/26/2006 09:06:00 AM  
Blogger Mad Fiddler said...

meme chose seems to have put finger on the telling point — i.e., that it's premature to be trying to re-construct and "help" the people BEFORE we've kicked the asses of the bad-gauys sufficiently to persuade them to surrender.

Surrender.

No? Kick ass a whole lot more...

Surrender.

No? Kick Ass.

Surrender?

Et cetera.

Otherwise it's like trying to rehabilitate the robber in the liquor store while he's still holding the shotgun on the clerk.

8/26/2006 09:08:00 AM  
Blogger Meme chose said...

The number of ways in which our present situation illuminates the formerly hard-to-understand 1930's seems endless.

What were the bulk of the German people doing during the 1930's? This is an issue which of course bears on their culpability, and on our own moral status, given what we subsequently did to them.

It's a question most histories have been coy about.

It is now clear to me that many if not most of them were doing exactly what many if not most Muslims (as the surveys in the UK and elsewhere show) are doing today: not actively supporting the violence by members of their community, but not opposing it either, and privately deriving great pleasure from the assaults on their neighbors, which they consider justified.

This attitude proved enough to condemn all of the Germans to total military defeat and surrender, in a war the Allies had not sought. I don't see any other likely ultimate outcome for Muslims today. They are playing with fire.

8/26/2006 09:37:00 AM  
Blogger Mad Fiddler said...

Of course, Global Warming will cause glaciers to grow:

• sun warms oceans more than usual, evaporating more moisture
• moisture in atmosphere creates additional precipitation, falling as snow in northern regions and mountainous altitudes.
• more snow makes glaciers grow faster initially than the additional heat melts the same glaciers.

Eventually, the hot air causing Global Warming will be traced to the overheated rhetoric emerging from the fanatical loonies ranting about how the Kyoto accordion could have saved the world.

8/26/2006 09:50:00 AM  
Blogger Annoy Mouse said...

We here little details about combat deaths, but it is not hard to imagine it being dangerous. But what are the statistics of being shrapped by an IED? Something terrible about the idea of being turned into a red mist without a chance to fight back.

The British apparently feel more at home with the Mohammedans than they do their Gaelic cousins. Now war there in Northern Ireland and no problem with the indigenous bombers, after all, Britain has it coming right?

It is interesting to note that many enlisted men who’s times up are not reenlisting but signing on to a stint with the reserves where they are more likely to be promoted. I wonder how this tilts the statistics.

8/26/2006 10:08:00 AM  
Blogger Annoy Mouse said...

Nahncee,
“And ... do we know if they're still coming in to try to bag their very own American?”

It will be a fine day in my book when free-lance Westerners go to foreign countries to bag their own Mohammedan.

I am pretty sure that the Imams promise a holy hand job or more for American deaths. Maybe it is time to put a bounty on every know terrorist and let good old market economics take care of the problem.

8/26/2006 10:16:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

But it you crouched down and sucked on it wouldn't you just have two broken legs?

8/26/2006 10:46:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

I grew up in McNamera's time:
It's all about cost/benefit.

8/26/2006 10:49:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

We'll no doubt find a consensus opinion of the Club.
Robert M would not be amused.

8/26/2006 10:53:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

I can see two guys lifting the spring wondering why the smile.

8/26/2006 10:55:00 AM  
Blogger Annoy Mouse said...

Idle men in the hands of mice make Mouse a dull boy. Prefer vodka.

8/26/2006 10:56:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Now we gotta figure out how we'd bait it for 'Rat.

8/26/2006 11:00:00 AM  
Blogger luc said...

whit said... 8/26/2006 08:56:22 AM

“I may be mistaken but I believe Luc is a European. I would say that his chances of becoming a dhimmi are statistically far greater than dying at the hands of the Islamists. Should he be any less alarmed at the thought of Eurabia?”

You are correct as far as my being born in Europe but the statistics are lying with respect to my chances of becoming a dhimmi seen that I did not become a “commie” either. I am also inclined to think that my reply to a dhimmi offer I could not refuse would be more in line with the Soze guy from a previous Wretchard post than accepting the dhimmitude; However, I won’t know for sure until it happens, but for now I seem to be fairly hard-line in my comments about Iran and NoKo and trying not to find out ;)

8/26/2006 11:18:00 AM  
Blogger Teresita said...

mad fiddler wrote:

• sun warms oceans more than usual, evaporating more moisture
• moisture in atmosphere creates additional precipitation, falling as snow in northern regions and mountainous altitudes.
• more snow makes glaciers grow faster initially than the additional heat melts the same glaciers.


• Al Gore has a harder time cherry-picking glacier images for his power point presentation.
• The increased CO2 is taken up by vegetation from Brazil to Iowa, resulting in a an increase of biodiesel output.
• Winters in the US northeast and Great Lakes region moderate, resulting in less consumption of natural gas and coal for heating homes. The fossil fuels are diverted to liquefaction plants for end-use in automobiles.
• Carbon-neutral solar-powered air conditioning units become the rage from Phoenix to the new sunbelt city of Vancouver BC, where palm trees replace pine.

8/26/2006 11:29:00 AM  
Blogger PeterBoston said...

We needed a PhD to tell us that being an E3 in a Marine rifle company in a combat zone is dangerous? What does this guy have to say about the risk of checking my fuel tank level with an illuminated match?

8/26/2006 12:00:00 PM  
Blogger luc said...

If you are intersted a different serious scientific opinion from that of Chief Climatologist Algore see:
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2006/08/25/globalcooling.shtml

8/26/2006 12:06:00 PM  
Blogger Teresita said...

wretchard said:

Between March 21, 2003, when the first military death was recorded in Iraq, and March 31, 2006, there were 2,321 deaths among American troops in Iraq.

Let's use this figure and rank the Iraq War with battle deaths from other US wars.

World War II..............291,557
Civil War (Aggressors)..140,414
Civil War (Old Dixie).....133,821
World War I................53,402
Vietnam War...............47,366
Korean War................33,629
Revolutionary War.........4,435
Iraq War....................2,321
War of 1812................2,260
Mexican War...............1,733
Spanish-American War......385
Afghanistan 2002-present...327
Gulf War I.....................147

At a glance it can be seen that there is a discontinuity between the battle deaths of a large conflict such as Korea, and a small one such as the Revolutionary War. Iraq is still and will probably always be, a minor conflict.

8/26/2006 12:13:00 PM  
Blogger Mad Fiddler said...

Teresita, you must know I was joking with my Global warming post...

I don't have any doubt that humans are despoiling parts of the planet, but the issue of Global Warming is far more equivocal and complex than the LLL would ever admit, and the Kyoto accord seems designed for no other purpose than to allow Third World "victim" states to extort money from the countries that are providing the world with all the technological advances.

I often joke at the supermarket checkout: "We live in an age of miracles. We don't have to like'em all but they're still miracles..."

The consistency of the LLL posturing on a wide range of issues and causes is the only thing that really demonstrates that they are thinking creatures.

8/26/2006 12:53:00 PM  
Blogger luc said...

The Mad Fiddler said... 8/26/2006 12:53:53 PM "Teresita, you must know I was joking with my Global warming post..."

Did you have a chance to check the article I reered to in my 12:06:16 PM

http://www.mosnews.com/news/2006/08/25/globalcooling.shtml

8/26/2006 01:10:00 PM  
Blogger allen said...

teresita, 12:13:30 PM

The casualty roll for the 110th Illinois Volunteer Infantry Regiment: lost 1 officer and 13 enlisted men killed or mortally wounded and 2 officers and 212 enlisted men by disease.

ILLINOIS INFANTRY REGIMENTS
http://www.mosocco.com/
illinois.html

The ratio of killed in action to those perishing in camp is not atypical of the time.

Would you say those dead of disease were less patriotic than those killed in battle?

8/26/2006 01:11:00 PM  
Blogger Jamie Irons said...

From The Weekly Standard, this is a nice analysis of the options we face going forward (or choosing not to) in Iraq:

Will We Choose To Win In Iraq?


Jamie Irons

8/26/2006 02:04:00 PM  
Blogger Teresita said...

cedarford wrote:

Your statistics are misleading. You compare total deaths in Iraq to only combat deaths in other wars. Apples and oranges.

At this time, there are roughly 500 non-combat deaths in Iraq, placing the true rank of the Iraq War behind the War of 1812 for the next few weeks or months, but eventually the Iraq War will pull up to where I place it.

Iraq is now the 4th most expensive war the US has ever fought. On track to exceed Vietnam's costs in 2007, making only WWII and the Civil War more costly ventures.

When comparing prices across significant stretches of time one must resort to using constant dollars. The relative cost of operations in Iraq, at 2% of America's annual GDP, is less than either the Vietnam conflict at 12% or World War II at 40%.

You don't feel it's economic impact because Bush borrowed the money to fight it from Japan, China, France, and KSA...

More fool they to lend it to us. We get money and they get little pieces of paper that say "IOU." If we were to declare war on China or Saudi Arabia, those pieces of paper and sixty cents will get them a donut at Pao's in Tacoma.

...the idea being no pain now, pay later once his "supply side theories" have grown the economy so future Americans that will pay the Asians and others will find it less painless the "Deferred sacrifice, stick it to future generations" war plan...Though conveniently, Bush has made is so present Americans actually get tax cuts. Clever guy, ey??

Oh, trust me, the Bush currently in the White House is not the kind of bush that I'm fond of.

8/26/2006 02:06:00 PM  
Blogger PeterBoston said...

Then, in September 2001 (only five days, in fact, before the destruction of the World Trade Center), the Norwegian newspaper Dagbladet reported that 65 percent of rapes of Norwegian women were performed by "non-Western" immigrants–a category that, in Norway, consists mostly of Muslims. The article quoted a professor of social anthropology at the University of Oslo (who was described as having "lived for many years in Muslim countries") as saying that "Norwegian women must take their share of responsibility for these rapes" because Muslim men found their manner of dress provocative. One reason for the high number of rapes by Muslims, explained the professor, was that in their native countries "rape is scarcely punished," since Muslims "believe that it is women who are responsible for rape." The professor’s conclusion was not that Muslim men living in the West needed to adjust to Western norms, but the exact opposite: "Norwegian women must realize that we live in a multicultural society and adapt themselves to it."
Middle East Forum

Tell me about it trish. Don't worry. Be happy.

8/26/2006 02:16:00 PM  
Blogger Teresita said...

allen said:

Would you say those dead of disease were less patriotic than those killed in battle?

God forbid. But deaths by disease in 2006 are so low, it is best to compare total deaths in Iraq to only combat deaths in earlier wars.

That being said, I don't think patriotism is necessarily a virtue if it is not in service to life. A patriotic Japanese soldier would have bayonetted prisoners marching at Bataan who collapsed. A patriotic German citizen would have zipped his lip about the horrible smell of burnt human hair coming from that camp next door.

8/26/2006 02:23:00 PM  
Blogger allen said...

teresita; 2:23:03 PM

On 24 November 1943, the escort carrier USS Liscome Bay was torpedoed at 0510 and sank at 0533; 55 officers (including Admiral Mullinix) and 591 enlisted men (including Dorie Miller) went down with her. Two hundred seventy-two men survived.

Were these shipmasters less valiant than the troops they had supported for three days on Makin and Tarawa?

>From the “Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships,”
(1969) Vol. 4, p.121.
http://www.hazegray.org/
danfs/carriers/cve56.txt

8/26/2006 02:41:00 PM  
Blogger A Jacksonian said...

Well, I hear so much about how awful Iraq is and how long we have been fighting there and how interminable it is... and just had to go run the figures on the other conflicts the US has been in. Now, I didn't have time nor energy to do a day-to-day averaging of casualties and such, and since so many folks have the casualty figures at their fingertips, it seemed superfluous.

So, the quick run-down by days from start of conflict to end of conflict, and I do use *official ends* for most of it, but give some perspective on a thing or two beyond that. (do excuse the messiness of the numbers)

OEF-A, last city surrenders: 87
Barbary Wars II: 107
OIF to conventional forces declared defeated: 202
1991 Gulf War: 209
OEF-A, Elected Loya Jirga meets: 303
WWI to Armistice: 584
Mexican-American War: 649
Quasi-War with France: 815
OIF Legislative Election: 842
War of 1812: 975
Boxer Rebellion: 1091
OIF public voting for Constitution: 1100
Korean War: 1128
OIF Constitutional Legislative Elections: 1161
Philippine-American(P-A) War to End: 1181
OIF Government of Iraq: 1317
WWII to Japanese Surrender to US: 1346
OEF-A, Constitutional Legislative Elections: 1468
Barbary Wars I: 1501
Barbary Total: 1608
Civil War: 1667
WWI to Treaty of Lausanne: 2300
American Revolution (AMR) Start to Signed treaty of Paris: 3192
Northwest Indian War: 3846
AMR Start to Ratification of Constitution: 5068
AMR to Washington assumes office of President: 5125
P-A War to Autonomy Act: 6415
Vietnam: 6999
Cold War: 15889
P-A War to Sovereignty (WII included): 17316
Western Indian Wars (summation for all): 27520

So, the US is now creeping up to the length of the First Barbary war for duration in OIF. War weary, are we?

Then to have an added bit of fun I went and looked at what the 'elites' in society think is what the public will accept in casualties and what the public thinks about same. And come to the conclusion that people actually *expect* blood to be shed for liberty in wars! Shocking suprise, I know. A nice little 1999 look at this actually questioned Military Elites, Civilian Elites and the Mass Public about what they thought were acceptable casualties that the public would tolerate in a few things and one of them was to stop Iraq from getting WMDs. That *was* a pretty hot topic at the time, so was a reasonable question.

So, to glaze yet more eyes, the short of it is: Military Elites, 6,016; Civilian Elites, 19,045; and Mass Public, 29,853. Mind you, *not* to overthrow Saddam, put in a democratic government and, generally, tidy the place up, but to just stop that sweet fellow from getting WMDs. But that *was* 1999 when things looked so wonderful. Now if we could only find those brave and fearless 'elites' today.

One of the final nuggets I ran across, and it is quite interesting, is the military demographics up to 2004. First off there is one invariant in the death rate: illness. Of deaths in the military 18% are due to illness, which includes the year 2003 and Iraq. In Iraq, on top of that, 14% of all deaths are suicides. So, in Iraq in 2003 32% of all deaths are due to illness and suicide. Now, I do hope that all of those wonderful bodycount sites do remove those from their tallies so we can get a good feeling of what the combat death rate is.

No real point to these numbers, save the obvious. I have done my best to check my typing, use a nice little online utility to get the dates and generally ensure that the figures are as shown.

I wish we could get some real police blotter style reporting instead of this red and runny stuff of the modern media. But red sells advertising, I guess... actually keeping track of things day-by-day requires persistence. Sadly, very few symphonies are solely drumbeats, but that is all we are meant to hear.

8/26/2006 02:43:00 PM  
Blogger PeterBoston said...

In this article, I argue that George Bush and Tony Blair's appeal to common ideals in their attempt to recruit Europe to the task of reshaping the Middle East is fundamentally mistaken: such common ideals do not exist. Indeed, I will argue that the Cold War is not over, that the U.S. has not won the "war" and that the battles that lie ahead will be far more difficult to pin down than even the asymmetric warfare of the Islamic terrorists. The Cold War is Not Over: Europe and the Post-Modern Left

A good read.

8/26/2006 02:44:00 PM  
Blogger Teresita said...

allen

Were these shipmasters less valiant than the troops they had supported for three days on Makin and Tarawa?


Hell no. Go Navy. Now kindly explain to me why you pose this question and how it is derived from anything I wrote earlier.

8/26/2006 02:52:00 PM  
Blogger luc said...

Teresita said... 8/26/2006 02:23:03 PM
“God forbid. But deaths by disease in 2006 are so low, it is best to compare total deaths in Iraq to only combat deaths in earlier wars.”

A Jacksonian said...
“…..Of deaths in the military 18% are due to illness, which includes the year 2003 and Iraq.”

Is there a difference between the two? Because, if there is only statement is correct. Which one?

8/26/2006 03:08:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Peter Boston 02:16:27 PM,
I think she's reading and citing Larry Johnson AGAIN.
Inside source from the CIA, you know.

8/26/2006 03:21:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Rufus 02:16:19 PM,
That of course depends on the meaning of "Bush."

8/26/2006 03:23:00 PM  
Blogger Teresita said...

possumtater

All these statistics on war casualties. Demographics etc.
Not a word about death camps, such as Unit 731.


Unfortunately, p'tater, when I see "Unit 731" or "Rape of Nanking" I interpret that as an attempt to get me to return to the topic a couple days ago when I was called a troll. So you're right, not a word.

8/26/2006 03:23:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"bush"

8/26/2006 03:26:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Teresita 03:23:40 PM,
You sell yourself short:
Thanks for the Bataan and Kraut comments in this thread.

8/26/2006 03:27:00 PM  
Blogger Teresita said...

possumtater wrote:

It will be interesting to see how well his site does, discussing as it no doubt will, the US demographics developing in the Southwest.


"Mr. Buchanan seems to have missed the fact that Mexico had cathedrals and universities teaching Plato and Aquinas when the only inhabitants of the US were Indians...His 'cultural' anxieties are actually racial ones -- what he really doesn't like about Mexicans are their icky brown skins. " -- S. M. Stirling, Santa Fe (Amazon review)

To which this brown-skinned person adds a hearty AMEN!

8/26/2006 03:35:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"As for those who, after a period in the West, make it obvious that they are unwilling or unable to adapt, they must be sent home and replaced by deserving individuals who can adapt. This may appear extreme, but there is no reasonable alternative.

For at stake in all this, ultimately, are the basic freedoms of all Westerners–not only women and homosexuals, but everyone, including Muslims and former Muslims who wish to live in a place where they can be themselves. At stake, indeed, is Western civilization
"
---
That, and immigration/Visa controls would certainly improve what is refered to as a most serious situation.
As are Jetliners under the control of IslamoNazis and similar highly rewarding excercises on the Raisin Road to Heaven.

8/26/2006 03:40:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Teresita,
I believe Allen is a Jew.
Despite this he is able to rationally compartmentalize his assesment of Buchanan's facts and opinion in the Face of Pat's feelings towards Jews.
An admirable trait, but of course not to be expected in the Swill of the MSM sewage.

8/26/2006 03:44:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

My cultural anxieties have to do with the total breakdown of the fabric of our society as we know it in Parts of CA and throughout the Southwest.
It is off topic and I tire of repeating myself, but the information out there is voluminous.
LA Cheif Bratton is a good starting point re: Drug Gangs and Crime.
Free rides for serial child rapists and gang/related mandatory rape are less than ideal, also.
As are the Azatlanders and Revolutionaries that Honest George Paid off to the tune of $35 million dollars.
Then we have the failed schools and closed hospitals, but I repeat myself.
Sorry you think skin color matters.
To Pat: Why to you?

8/26/2006 03:51:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Them's "*ASIANS*" Now,
Mr Un-PC Possum!

8/26/2006 04:22:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"Asian Yuts"

8/26/2006 04:22:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Just kids:
I remember some writeup after 9-11 in which the writer lamented that some of the poor boys on Atta's liners were still just kids, really.

8/26/2006 04:24:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Marines Overcome, Give Up All Resistance!

8/26/2006 04:24:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

I must admit, I for one find it discomfiting.

8/26/2006 04:58:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

(04:51:26 PM and 04:46:03 PM)

8/26/2006 05:00:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

On balance, the "right wing blogosphere" seems quite restrained, compared to the workplace, talk radio, and etc.
Fear of ostracism, I fear.
Not a good time for an excuse that is not good at any time.
Rush thinks it is well nigh impossible when living in DC.
The atmosphere is heavy with PC Repression, and fear of outing by the NY Times and WaPo.

8/26/2006 05:31:00 PM  
Blogger 3Case said...

dr,

Reread the deathrate stats. It's Marine LCpls and Marine Lts with highest casualty rates.

All-Marines = 2x All-Army; i.e. All-Army = 1/2 All-Marines.
Marine LCpls 3.3 times All-Marines.
Marine Lts 19% greater than All-Marines.
Army Lts = 11% greater than All-Army.

Cause still the same; they are the men nose-to-nose with the jihadis...at least when the jihadis aren't hiding.

8/26/2006 05:33:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

And then as Shelby Steele and Tom Sowell Point out, white guilt, now even for non-"whites!"

8/26/2006 05:33:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

And again, the fish rots from the Head:
No GOP Prez or admin in my recollection so quickly and repeatedly played the race card - against conservatives.
(was going to say fellow conservatives, but why lie?)

8/26/2006 05:39:00 PM  
Blogger 3Case said...

"Idle men in the hands of mice make Mouse a dull boy. Prefer vodka."

Well said.

8/26/2006 05:44:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Do the Marines rely on the Army for Supplies?
That would certainly change the ratios.
I'm interested in Numbers for
III-ID: They've been 3 times, right?

8/26/2006 06:14:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Rufus,
Still loading, but you remind me:
I heard an Ad for TV on the Radio that made Katrina sound worse than 9-11 and the 1906 SF Quake Combined.
Very Dramatic,
Woo ee!
I'm sure it was fair and balanced and not drowned in Victimology.

8/26/2006 06:27:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Rufus,
Except at Haditha recently when it was steal a look, or a lot.
See "Marines Overcome" above.

8/26/2006 06:30:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

I knew that guy was good for something!
Now if we could just get Kofi to lick our boots.

8/26/2006 06:32:00 PM  
Blogger Teresita said...

possumtater wrote:

That you would quote "Mr. Buchanan seems to have missed the fact that Mexico had cathedrals and universities teaching Plato and Aquinas when the only inhabitants of the US were Indians" truly shows an ignorance of the man and a depth of knowledge picked up at the Daughters of Sappho meeting.

What follows is a little snapshot of the "invaders" who "can't assimilate" and therefore threaten Pat BuKKKanan's idea of cultural purity:

The number of Hispanic-owned businesses with paid employees in 2002 was 199,725, with receipts of $184 billion. And they pay taxes.

There are 38,500 Hispanic physicians and surgeons, 50,400 Hispanic postsecondary teachers, 53,400 Hispanic chief executives of businesses 38,100 Hispanic lawyers, and 5,000 Hispanic news analysts, reporters and correspondents.

The number of Latino veterans of the U.S. armed forces is 1.1 million. About 53,000 Hispanic-origin people were on active duty in 2003 in the United States.

The number of Hispanic citizens who reported voting in the 2004 presidential election was 7.6 million, up from 5.9 million four years earlier.

The number of Hispanics age 18 and older who had at least a bachelor’s degree in 2004 was 2.7 million. The number of Hispanics 25 years and older with advanced degrees in 2004 (e.g., master’s, professional, doctorate) was 714,000.

8/26/2006 06:34:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Teresita:
That is NOT the profile of current illegal arrivals, of course.
Many Hispanics are rightly upset about the illegal situation.
Many others are cowed into silence as we have discussed here.
---
I've forgotten the figures but over half of LA Inmates are Illegals or Hispanics plus Illegals, forget which.
California Penal System as a whole is very high.
Upward mobility used to strongly characterise children of immigrants.
Not so children of illegals.

8/26/2006 06:41:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

I am quite sympathetic to all peoples that come to the US to better themselves.
On a personal level it is difficult to fault the individual's attemp to better their life.

The folks that enter the country illegally should be dealt with. This is a two pronged challenge. One at the frontier, the other in the heartland.

First and foremost the border should be secured, preventing further infiltrations. Then decisions about the disposition of the 12 plus million illegal residents can be made.

Mr Pence has made a resonable suggestion Securing the Borders and Reforming Immigration Without Amnesty but any solution is better then the staying the course.

Denial and illegality are not the hallmarks of a great Republic.

8/26/2006 06:43:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

The Assimilation figures of illegals are available also:
Want to look those up?

8/26/2006 06:43:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Here's a story about an EXCEPTIONAL Family/EXCEPTIONAL Parents.
...along with some very sad statistics.
For senior Luz Elena Gutierrez, that path wound through hallways crowded with dispirited peers, around inexperienced teachers and veterans disillusioned by experience, over economic obstacles seldom faced by middle-class children, to the spotlight on stage at tonight's graduation as Fremont's valedictorian for the Class of 2006.

Almost 500 students will cross the stage with her.

But more than 100 of them will receive a certificate of completion instead of a diploma; they had the grades to graduate but could not pass the state exit exam.

And 1,500 of her freshman classmates will not be present; they left Fremont during the four years leading to graduation.

8/26/2006 06:52:00 PM  
Blogger allen said...

teresita; 2:52 PM

re: “Now kindly explain to me why you pose this question and how it is derived from anything I wrote earlier.”

Your being the author should go far to answering both questions. If you are still confused, check out earlier posts on other threads.

I do not know if you are of Japanese ancestry; however, to the extent that I derive from your comments that your opinions are shaped by Japanese lineage, I will not hesitate to so say. Should you discover that my opinions are influenced by my Jewish heritage, I will not be offended by your pointing that out; it has already happened without flaming.

To the extent my comments have castigated ILLEGAL Mexican interlopers, I make no apology. For those who wish to take that as an ethic slur, I suggest remedial reading. Neither melanin nor ethnicity, per se, has influenced my comments for the very simple reason that Jews come in every color and from every clime. While it should be unnecessary to explain the obvious, for the benefit of ash, Islam is an odious, dehumanizing, murderous ideology practiced viciously most recently, by those of ME visages. When it is practiced by those of the Amish genome, I will so indicate, indelicately.

On the other hand, teresita, if you insult my semi-aquiline nose, fat ear lobes, beard, or dentition, I will not be pleased, assuming your motivation meretricious (thanks) and puerile.

My life has been informed by the Marine Corps. My life has been informed by ancestors who have served the United States in every war. My life is informed by family and dear friends now serving. My life is informed by the memories of those lost in the line of duty. Therefore, with respect, you may feel free to criticize any policy or anyone responsible for developing or enforcing policy. However, on the day you insult an American kid, one of my Marines, you will not be surprised to learn that I will consider you a contemptible piece of civilian trash and most certainly a fraud.

Just to get off on the right foot, it was the behavior of those Japanese and German butchers you referenced earlier that explains why they needed killin’ and why Americans were not bashful in accommodation. Oh, at least 60% of the Waffen SS was non-German - hard to fit patriotism into that number.

By the by, I never expect you to stoop to the petty ridicule most often associated with spoiled, pre-pubescent males off medication. You are too good a man for that.

8/26/2006 06:54:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"She chose her friends as carefully as she picked her courses:
like-minded girls who met under the big tree on the quad for lunch and to discuss calculus, college applications and leads on financial aid.

It is no coincidence, she says, that all 10 of Fremont's top seniors are girls. "At a school like this, guys get pressured to do a lot of things … gangs, drugs. Boys make fun of you if you do your work. Girls don't have that kind of pressure."
"

8/26/2006 06:58:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

This is no longer available online from the LA Times:

""In other words, people are coming to the conclusion we got to do something about a system that isn't working, President Bush said at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, in southeastern New Mexico about 100 miles from the Mexican border."
---
Earth to POTUS:
Citizens in "impacted areas" are not "coming" to a conclusion.
...and to talk about the "system" not working 5 years after 9-11, when you have not even used the authority you are supposed to use by law, or enforced existing laws at Pre-9-11 levels, is not forthright, nor is it inspirational or honorable.

8/26/2006 07:15:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

PossumTater to Habu3:
I thought you told me...

8/26/2006 07:17:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Bush's unspoken position is:
I will start enforcing the law, when you pass the legislation I want.
Honest.
Even if that turned out to be true, it fails to address that he has no excuse for refusing to enforce existing law and some laws that have already been recently passed, including some he signed regarding border security.

8/26/2006 07:23:00 PM  
Blogger Mad Fiddler said...

Cambridge Conference Correspondence

The link above is to a highly-eclectic set of posts, all from September of 2001, just before the 9-11 business, so they’re blissfully unpolitical... mostly.

Several interesting bits:

• On 23 April 2001, two infrasound detection arrays — built to monitor nuclear testing and seismic events — recorded the low-frequency report from the atmospheric explosion of a meteorite over the mid-Pacific Ocean. The explosion is calculated to have been comparable to that of several thousand tons of TNT, in the same order of magnitude as the Hiroshima and Nagasaki atomic detonations. Estimated size of the mass was between two and three meters diameter, and the detector arrays were located at the Scripps Institute of Oceanography in San Diego, 1,800 kilometers from the blast, and another in Germany 11,000 kilometers distant.

• Extended interview with Bjorn Lomborg, Danish professor of Statistics who began questioning the Ecofanatic party line after he had his students a class exercise do a sustained batch of fact-checking on a book by Libertarian economist Julian Simon. The attempt to debunk his facts finally led Lomborg instead to re-evaluate his own beliefs. He went on to write his own book “The Skeptical Environmentalist”

• Several articles describing the efforts of various arms manufacturers to develop “green” rocket propellants and warheads that don’t pollute with metals and chlorine components. May sound nuts, but the article points out that the vast bulk of missiles end up launched in the user’s home territory, in training exercises, rather than in actual combat on foreign soil.

8/26/2006 07:25:00 PM  
Blogger luc said...

Teresita,

I posted a few threads back that, based on the tenor of your comments in that thread, in my opinion you were a troll. I obviously do not feel the need to apologize for my opinions as I am sure you do not apologize for your opinions! Opinions are beliefs and I think we should be free to express them as long as we are not vulgar, advocate harm to somebody or mayhem in general.
The opinions I express in public are open to judgment just as your behavior the other day after I expressed my opinion and, we like it or not, we both have to live with that fact.
As another of my opinions, I can say that I believe that a person who has reached a certain level of maturity does not allow a stranger to control their behavior by reacting childishly to a harmless comment. I will end my post by repeating what I said 8/24/2006 12:26:40 PM
“As this is not a personal attack, just a personal opinion based on observation, I continue to wish you a good day!”

8/26/2006 07:29:00 PM  
Blogger Mad Fiddler said...

The impoverished of the world have ALWAYS perceived the United States as a land of plenty, and tried their damnedest to get here. The rules we have set up within our own culture are sufficiently crazed to destroy the country even if we did not have the additional problem of illegal immigrants flooding in to take advantage of those rules.

Among the alleged intelligentsia in the U.S. (as a legacy of the “dead hand” of Marxist ideology that has found haven primarily in tenured academic and un-accountable government posts, as in the case of a certain Carter-appointed Detroit Judge) there is an unchallenged set of assumptions that drive legislation, adminstrative edicts, and the criteria governing the distribution of and access to services and funds:

• White Europeans are intrinsically oppressors.
• The legacy of White European Oppression against all other ethnic groups and cultures automatically qualifies them as victims deserving of constant apologies and compensation.
• Even certain White Europeans can be elevated to the honored status of Victims of White European Oppression, so long as they can be seen to be selected for discrimination because of behaviors or attitudes that have been unfairly criminalized or sanctioned by the Mainstream as violation of Mainstream traditional values.
• Of course, anyone who disagrees with these self-evident facts is clearly part of the Structure of Oppression.

This is the logical extension of the “Robin Hood” mythology —
i.e., that it is fair and just to commit violence against those that possess any wealth and redistribute the spoils of that violence to the poor, on the supposition that those who had wealth had stolen it from those who did not.

That may at times in certain medieval feudal societies have been an accurate portrayal of all the parties. The reasoning would of course apply equally to ANY autocratic society with a tiny aristocracy enjoying wealth and privilege at the expense of a vast oppressed majority, such as the Maya, the Aztec, and the Inca in the Americas, Russia under the Tsars and then under Soviet rule, Japan under fifteen generations of Edo Shogunate, China — the list could go on for pages.

More importantly, there is an even more infantile set of assumptions that underpins the “Robin Hood” mythology.
• Bad people STEAL; Good people SHARE.
• There’s plenty to go around, if everyone would SHARE.
• The reason EVERYONE isn’t wealthy is that bad people have STOLEN from good people.
• The solution to make everyone Wealthy is to take stuff away from people who have it (They STOLE it, remember?) and GIVE it (Well, some of it... Hey, I’m the Good guy, because I’m the one that figured this all out, so I get to decide!) to the people that Don’t have stuff.

This is the fundamental rationale behind our welfare system, and our healthcare system. The absolute unquestioned assumption is that there is un-ending abundance in the system — NOT that the abundance is created by anyone’s labor or painstaking cultivation.

8/26/2006 07:37:00 PM  
Blogger Jamie Irons said...

The views of Andrew J. Bacevich might, at least in part, appeal to Trish. Here is the last paragraph of his article "The Islamic Way of War."



In the Middle East and more broadly in our relations with the Islamic world, we face difficult and dangerous problems, more than a few of them problems to which we ourselves have contributed. Those problems will become more daunting still, for us and for Israel, should a nation like Iran succeed in acquiring nuclear weapons. But as events in Iraq and now in southern Lebanon make clear, reliance on the sword alone will not provide a solution to those problems. We must be strong and we must be vigilant. But we also need to be smart, and getting smart means ending our infatuation with war and rediscovering the possibilities of politics.

Jamie Irons

8/26/2006 07:40:00 PM  
Blogger luc said...

jamie irons,
“What the Islamic Way of War does mean to both Israel and to the United States is this: the Arabs now possess—and know that they possess—the capacity to deny us victory, especially in any altercation that occurs on their own turf and among their own people.” Andrew J. Bacevich

Is the glass half full or half empty?

Do the Arabs possess the capacity to deny us victory or they have learned how to use against ourselves our capacity for compassion? It seems to me that the only thing they posses for now is the capacity to die and make us feel guilty; this may change in a short time.

8/26/2006 07:54:00 PM  
Blogger Jamie Irons said...

Fiddler,

You wrote:

This is the fundamental rationale behind our welfare system, and our healthcare system. The absolute unquestioned assumption is that there is un-ending abundance in the system — NOT that the abundance is created by anyone’s labor or painstaking cultivation...

It's astonishing to me that people wish to argue that healthcare is a right. This weird notion seems to spring from an idea that nobody ought to be ill or suffer (and everyone with a heart can certainly wish that were the case), but the tragic fact is that even with the best health care in the world we get sick and die. Nobody seems to want to admit that their insistence on this "right" is really a claim on some doctor's or nurse's or other health care professional's limited time, which means it is a claim on his or her money.

Being a medically inclined psychiatrist who started out as a family physician and whose work is mostly consulting with physicians and surgeons, it has become clear to me after many years of experience that an enormous part of the health care budget (I am speaking here solely about adults) goes to two groups: people who shamelessly suck up resources, but who aren't all that sick and, sadly, people with very serious problems, whose problems we are only able, at best, to ameliorate.

We need to think a lot more deeply about health care as a "right."


Jamie Irons

8/26/2006 08:01:00 PM  
Blogger Teresita said...

desert rat said:

First and foremost the border should be secured, preventing further infiltrations. Then decisions about the disposition of the 12 plus million illegal residents can be made.

Agreed. This is especially important if Hugo Chavez keeps being buddies with that asshole in Iran. He might make Venezuela the wedge by which terrorist maggots worm their way into the US via Central America.

8/26/2006 08:02:00 PM  
Blogger Teresita said...

jamie irons said:

it has become clear to me after many years of experience that an enormous part of the health care budget (I am speaking here solely about adults) goes to two groups: people who shamelessly suck up resources, but who aren't all that sick and, sadly, people with very serious problems, whose problems we are only able, at best, to ameliorate.


You forgot two other suckers-of-resources: Those who file frivolous lawsuits like other people buy lottery tickets, hoping for a multi-million dollar payout, and those who insure doctors against that happening.

Solution: Liability limits coupled with the state underwriting malpractice insurance (to get the lawyers out of the business altogether). If society has an interest in defining marriage as this or that to promote the FAMILY, surely there there is a societal interest in keeping good FAMILY doctors around rather than watching them flee to states that DO limit liabilities.

8/26/2006 08:14:00 PM  
Blogger Mad Fiddler said...

An important related assumption of the system (which I describe in infantile idiom to accentuate its “innocence”) is this:

• Anything bad that happens has to be someone’s fault; Therefor, identifying and punishing the person who is at fault will correct the original bad thing.

8/26/2006 08:27:00 PM  
Blogger Jamie Irons said...

Teresita,

You are quite right about the malpractice problem, and your proposed solution just might work...

The malpractice issue for Ob-Gyn's is completely out of control.


Jamie Irons

8/26/2006 08:29:00 PM  
Blogger Mad Fiddler said...

Amazing how the “sophisticated” denizens of the Liberal cocktail set can precisely reckon the anticipated returns on their debentures and hedged commodities speculations, send a check for the World Council of Churches to use to promote Marxist atheist propaganda in the third world, and simultaneously chuckle indulgently at the ignorant jungle dwellers who believe that all sickness is caused by curses and spells.

8/26/2006 08:34:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Terisita Said,
"You forgot two other suckers-of-resources: Those who file frivolous lawsuits like other people buy lottery tickets."
---
Stock in Trade for Illegals in LA is to stage phoney accidents.
(Real crashes that aren't accidents)

10's of thousands of Californians have been involved in real accidents with illegals having no insurance and no license.
They walk.
The Police in many areas are PROHIBITED from asking about a persons legal status re: immigration.

The California citizens injured monetarily, physically, and sometimes fatally are real people with real families and real insurance that they pay a great deal for as they do for schools that are no longer primarily places of learning.
---
Car theft in many areas is a thriving business.

8/26/2006 08:41:00 PM  
Blogger luc said...

jamie,
a solution similar to that proposed by teresita has been used by some provinces in Canada with respect to car insurance and/or the personal injury aspect of that insurance where the province underwrites the insurance and also they are using the "no fault" system. Since then, insurance rates have stopped their veriginous climbing. So that type of system is proven to work.

8/26/2006 08:43:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Fiddler 08:34:52 PM,
Or practice one-sided economics like the President that tallies the benefits, but few of the REAL COSTS of illegals.
Not to mention the multitude of hidden future costs, social, monetary, medical and public safety/security.

8/26/2006 08:45:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"accounting"

8/26/2006 08:45:00 PM  
Blogger Teresita said...

The Mad Fiddler wrote:

• Anything bad that happens has to be someone’s fault; Therefor, identifying and punishing the person who is at fault will correct the original bad thing.

Corollary: Punishing the great-great-great-great grandchildren of the bad person by demanding reparations is also acceptable.

8/26/2006 08:50:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Jamie 08:29:01 PM, several years ago we heard people talking about California fixing that problem to some extent.
I think CA is still better than the sad average, no?
There is one notorius state in the South that is an egregious abuser.

8/26/2006 08:50:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

You certainly pick and choose what you care to respond to, Teresita, after discharging your shotgun of shakey claims.

8/26/2006 08:52:00 PM  
Blogger Teresita said...

allen said:

By the by, I never expect you to stoop to the petty ridicule most often associated with spoiled, pre-pubescent males off medication. You are too good a man for that.

Allen, there may come a time when you want to know what's wrong. This post of yours will be what's wrong.

8/26/2006 08:58:00 PM  
Blogger Teresita said...

The Mad Fiddler wrote:

• The solution to make everyone Wealthy is to take stuff away from people who have it (They STOLE it, remember?) and GIVE it (Well, some of it... Hey, I’m the Good guy, because I’m the one that figured this all out, so I get to decide!) to the people that Don’t have stuff.

You've seen those quizes where they ask a few questions and plot you on a grid according to your political stances? Much of a person's politics can be determined by how much they follow two of the Ten Commandments:

Thou shalt not covet (0%-100%)
Thou shalt not kill (0%-100%)

*If you have 0% coveting and 0% killing, you believe the rich should keep their money and we should not fight wars or execute people (Taoist).

*If you have 100% coveting and 0% killing, you believe the rich should be taxed to help the poor, and we should not fight wars or execute people (Democrat).

*If you have 0% coveting and 100% killing, you believe the rich should keep their money and we should fight wars and execute people (Republican).

*If you have 100% coveting and 100% killing, you believe the rich should be taxed to help the poor, and we should fight wars and execute people (Communist China).

8/26/2006 09:11:00 PM  
Blogger Jamie Irons said...

Trish,

You asked:

What do you think about the Bacevich article?

I'm not sure yet; it did make me think. His point about the adaptations our enemies have made certainly seems right. But are those adaptations really anything truly novel? Or are they just another variation of the stuff the "Small Wars Manual" addresses? Obviously I'm way out of my depth here.

It does seem to me we have to thoroughly rethink our approach to the Islamists, unless by some series of miracles Iraq works out, as Rufus thinks it will.


Jamie Irons

8/26/2006 09:17:00 PM  
Blogger allen said...

teresita: 8:58 PM

I can live with it.

8/26/2006 09:19:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Possumtater likes Bonzai Trees.
Climbs up em and pretends
he's King Tater.
(Holding little Daisyfresh in his protective paw.)

8/26/2006 09:23:00 PM  
Blogger luc said...

rufus said...
Some more of that Inept Bush Foreign Policy.
8/26/2006 09:02:19 PM

When I look at a country like NoKo, which has nothing except some missile and possibly in the near future nukes, and then think of Kerry's suggestion that we should have unilateral engagement, I cannot help but ask for what reason? Do we want to but missiles or nukes from them?
The only other alternative to this type of commerce is to pay them protection, just like with the Mafia. It is astounding, if you think, that someone aspiring to to be president of the only remaining superpower advocates paying protection. If anyone wonders if he would accept dhimmitude he has already given the answer!

8/26/2006 09:31:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

09:28:49 PM
Tater wouldn't put up with Tojo, not for a minute.

8/26/2006 09:33:00 PM  
Blogger allen said...

teresita,

I LOVE lesbians. I am a dancin’ fool. One of the best times I have ever had was single handedly dancing with a table peopled by six lesbians. Goodness me! They, me, and two bottles of Campaign and we had the wedding party moving like there was a fresh missionary in the pot. Obviously, you, darling, have been wanting for fun.

Nothing personal, but your posts are fair game, with no quarter given. I cannot wait.

8/26/2006 09:34:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

You and your damned Margarita Hour.

8/26/2006 09:39:00 PM  
Blogger Jamie Irons said...

Trish,

Thanks!

;-)


Jamie Irons

8/26/2006 09:41:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Rufus,
Can't you even grant it
"High Falutin BS?"

8/26/2006 09:42:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

What if Broadway Joe had Flamed Out, and the Jets crashed?

8/26/2006 09:43:00 PM  
Blogger Jamie Irons said...

Rufus,

Read Bacevich when you're not so tired.

I don't think what he says is that outrageous.

But again, I am way out of my depth discussing these matters...

;-)


Jamie Irons

8/26/2006 09:43:00 PM  
Blogger Jamie Irons said...

Rufus,

That Niall Ferguson piece was superb. He is one of the more interesting thinkers out there.

What I conclude from his analysis is that Great Britain's historic "special relationship" with the U.S. may already be on its last legs. A terrible loss.

Jamie Irons

8/26/2006 09:55:00 PM  
Blogger allen said...

teresita,

To stay on topic, teresita, I love the Marine Corps, more than dancing with the daughters of Sappho.

You give me three Marines and I have a fire-team; give me four more and I have the makings of a squad; give me one more and I have VICTORY.

We don’t care what the Army, Navy, or Air Force do. Our motto is simple, deaths per thousand notwithstanding, “Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shaddow of death…” That is why we can spit in the eye of any contender and say, “Death before dishonor!”

8/26/2006 10:04:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Habu,
What happened to your "Special Relationship" with Teresita?
Is it, like the US/British one that Mr Ferguson references already on its last legs also?

8/26/2006 10:14:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Glad those Marines got to see the ladies out stripping, if only partially.

8/26/2006 10:16:00 PM  
Blogger Bob said...

Here's another way to look at it: All the leftists who were screaming about how our military death rates were unsustainable in the early 80's were right and should be listened to now. What? There weren't any? Maybe that's why I don't listen to any of them...

8/26/2006 10:26:00 PM  
Blogger Jamie Irons said...

Sappho:

Mete moi mele mete melitta...

For me no longer the honey nor the honeybee...


Touching fragment, and such are practically all she left us. The only complete poem, her hymn to Aphrodite, was memorably translated by Jim Powell, who taught me to read Homer in Greek...


Jamie Irons

8/26/2006 10:27:00 PM  
Blogger luc said...

rufus said... 8/26/2006 10:03:34 PM

“It's just timely nonsense.”

I agree with your point of view. As I posted earlier the only thing new the Muslims possess, until Iran gets nukes, is an illusion that they have become invincible, while in reality it is only continuous MSM propaganda describing their “victories” coupled with our lack of resolve to finish the fight. I submit that what is happening in Iraq since the war ended after only three weeks is not that much different from what happened to the German army in Yugoslavia during WWII. The difference is that the Germans did not worry about civilian casualties and so they managed to fairly well slow down the partisans.
It is amazing how the MSM has invented a “new” weapon for the Iraq; the IED or more ominous sounding VBIED. What is the real difference between these “new” weapons used by the insurgents in Iraq and the mines, dynamite and bubby traps used by the partisans in Yugoslavia? Not much! The main difference is the nationality of the dead soldiers and our society’s inability to accept casualties unless they are provoked by “super special weapons” wielded by “super smart worriers”. If I want to be cynical I would say that probably the Pentagon finds the idea of “super mines” useful to explain casualties; because as Wretchard’s post shows this is the obsession even if the numbers are very low.
With respect to Andrew J. Bacevich’s article referred to by Jamie, I would like to submit that the reason some find it seductive is because it proposes no ACTION only more study on how we should change our ways. At this point I will confess that Andrew J. Bacevich’s most recent book title, “The New American Militarism” sounds to me like something coming from the Soviet propaganda machine.
Good night!

8/26/2006 10:46:00 PM  
Blogger Jamie Irons said...

Habu,

Don't you mean

διαβάστε στα ελληνικά...

?



;-)


Jamie Irons

8/26/2006 10:53:00 PM  
Blogger Jamie Irons said...

καλή νύχτα, everybody...



Jamie Irons

8/26/2006 10:54:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

I didn't realize Homer read Greek.
Did he teach Bart anything?

8/26/2006 11:14:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Poor Possumtater got his tail stuck, wrapped around that Bonzai Tree, and he's been draggin it around for the last two hours.

Ms Daisyfresh is readin him the riot act on account of her being discomfited and all.
Concerned about what the neighbors will think:
Esp the Taoists.

8/26/2006 11:18:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Maybe he'll write a book:
"From King Tater to Goat in One Easy Lesson"

8/26/2006 11:21:00 PM  
Blogger Teresita said...

allen said (on the previous thread):


Teresita’s opinions are fair game, her personal appearance is not.


If you stand by that, then we don't have a problem.

8/26/2006 11:22:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Chances are 'cause I wear a silly grin
The moment you come into view
Chances are you think that I'm in love with you
Just because my composure sort of slips
The moment that your lips meet mine
Chances are you think my heart's your Valentine

In the magic of moonlight when I sigh, "Hold me close, dear"
Chances are you believe the stars that fill the skies are in my eyes
Guess you feel you'll always be the one and only one for me
And if you think you could
Well, chances are your chances are awfully good
Chances are you believe the stars that fill the skies are in my eyes
Guess you feel you'll always be the one and only one for me
And if you think you could
Well, chances are your chances are awfully good
The chances are your chances are awfully good

8/26/2006 11:46:00 PM  
Blogger allen said...

teresita; 11:22 PM


As you may have noticed, many Jews have the look of ME men. We can live with being racially profiled. Can Americans live with racially profiling men of ME appearance? Hmmm?

8/27/2006 12:04:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...

danmyers,

Would that Hitchens and I had more in common than a love of the bottle. The one thing we may share is the paraphrase of Churchill: Tomorrow, I will be sober; tomorrow you will still be stupid.

8/27/2006 12:11:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...

teresita; 11:22 PM

As you may have noticed, many Jews have the look of ME men. We can live with being racially profiled. Can Americans live with racially profiling men of ME appearance? Hmmm?

8/27/2006 12:13:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...

Sorry, double stike.

8/27/2006 12:14:00 AM  
Blogger Teresita said...

allen said:

As you may have noticed, many Jews have the look of ME men. We can live with being racially profiled. Can Americans live with racially profiling men of ME appearance? Hmmm?

It's not racial profiling, it's criminal profiling. If a person thinks it's racial profiling they have race on the brain...in other words they are racist.

For another thing, there are no races in the bible, only "peoples and kindreds and tongues". There is neither black nor white, only glorious shades of brown within a rather more narrow range of variety than people realize.

And in closing, even if you acknowledge three main racial divisions of man, Arabs are caucasians.

8/27/2006 12:16:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...

danmyers,

You excluded!

8/27/2006 12:16:00 AM  
Blogger Teresita said...

bobalharb said:

If reparations are going to be passed out, I want some too. After all, great,great,great unca Elmer fought on the Union side, and helped free the slaves, suffering himself in the process. He didn't get squat out of it personally, at least in the normal worldly sense; seems only fair his ancestor should cash in the chip.

"Looky here—mind how you talk to me; I'm a-standing about all I can stand now—so don't gimme no sass. I've been in town two days, and I hain't heard nothing but about you bein' rich. I heard about it away down the river, too. That's why I come. You git me that money to-morrow—I want it."

"I hain't got no money."

"It's a lie. Judge Thatcher's got it. You git it. I want it."

"I hain't got no money, I tell you. You ask Judge Thatcher; he'll tell you the same."

"All right. I'll ask him; and I'll make him pungle, too, or I'll know the reason why. Say, how much you got in your pocket? I want it."

"I hain't got only a dollar, and I want that to—"

"It don't make no difference what you want it for—you just shell it out."

8/27/2006 12:21:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...

terersita,

re: racial profiling

Are you telling me that you could not distinguish a Saudi from an Inuit?

If I am not offended by the inability to tell a Shepardim from a Palestinian, why should Americans be?

8/27/2006 12:25:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

"Are you telling me that you could not distinguish a Saudi from an Inuit? "
---
There's nothin to it, but to do it,
Ya gotta have heart,
Miles and miles and miles of heart...

8/27/2006 12:35:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...

quig,

I am a knurled Centurion. Our young Romans deserve far better than me.

Nevertheless, even an old war horse rears at the smell of battle.

Semper Fi

8/27/2006 12:35:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

I REALLY don't give a damn.
Figure that gives me quite an advantage dealing with the barbarians over all the PC quislings consuming oxygen all over this land today.
Teresita would not be coming up with all that garbage in a Foxhole, I would hope.
All the GD anxiety people spin up on "becoming like them, blah blah blah," ad nauseum.
As though survival value is no longer a value.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, hundreds or thousands of WWII vets I grew up around had NOT been turned into monsters by the experience.
Quite the contrary.

8/27/2006 12:54:00 AM  
Blogger Deuce ☂ said...

I cannot explain why I think this is amusing.

Last Updated: Sunday, 27 August 2006, 02:24 GMT 03:24 UK


Israeli Rocket hits Reuters car

The air strike was one of several in Gaza on Saturday night

An Israeli air strike on a car in Gaza City during a security operation has injured a Reuters news agency cameraman and a local journalist.
At least one rocket hit the car as the cameraman was filming, knocking him unconscious, while the second man received serious leg wounds.

The Reuters car was clearly marked all over as a media vehicle.

The Israeli army said the car had not been identified as press and expressed regret that journalists had been hurt.

8/27/2006 12:59:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Stuff happens.

8/27/2006 01:03:00 AM  
Blogger Deuce ☂ said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

8/27/2006 01:12:00 AM  
Blogger Deuce ☂ said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

8/27/2006 01:22:00 AM  
Blogger Deuce ☂ said...

In Schools Across U.S., the Melting Pot Overflows

By SAM DILLON
Published: August 27, 2006, NYT
STERLING, Va., Aug. 25 — Some 55 million youngsters are enrolling for classes in the nation’s schools this fall, making this the largest group of students in America’s history and, in ethnic terms, the most dazzlingly diverse since waves of European immigrants washed through the public schools a century ago.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/27/
education/27education.html?
hp&ex=1156737600&en=6b3d0bd
468860366&ei=5094&partner=homepage

By not enforcing US law on immigration, the tax cutting GWB is forcing school districts all across the US to increase local taxes to pick up the burden on school sytems caused by illegal immigration. This repressive tax on real estate, falls on Americans that worked and saved to own their homes. They played by the rules. These same Americans were not asked nor were they consulted about having to pay for those that do not play by the rules. And the man who is sworn to protect these same citizens does not choose to enforce the laws. So we are left with the tax bill, which if unpaid, will cause the full power of the state to enforce the laws to take your property. The law is not applied by the man sworn to enforce it and the law is ignored by the people who enter illegaly, but the law will be enforced to take what you lawfully earned because others, not you, do not follow the law. Have a nice day.

8/27/2006 01:51:00 AM  
Blogger Deuce ☂ said...

Isn't diversity fun?

8/27/2006 01:53:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Diversity is Perversity.
---
"The law is not applied by the man sworn to enforce it and the law is ignored by the people who enter illegaly, but the law will be enforced to take what you lawfully earned because others, not you, do not follow the law. Have a nice day."
Politcal Cowardice at it's best.

Reminiscent of the border ranchers that are prosecuted for trying to defend their own land, by a government that doesn't,
even tho that is it's first responsibility.

8/27/2006 02:01:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Free Medical Care Provided by High School dropouts steeped in Victimology and hatred of Amerika.
That should work.
---
Almost 500 students will cross the stage with her.
But more than 100 of them will receive a certificate of completion instead of a diploma; they had the grades to graduate but could not pass the state exit exam.
And 1,500 of her freshman classmates will not be present; they left Fremont during the four years leading to graduation.
"At a school like this, guys get pressured to do a lot of things … gangs, drugs.
.
"

8/27/2006 07:24:00 AM  
Blogger A Jacksonian said...

luc - I have read the 2004 Population study a few times, and it can be read as the 18% + 14% as illness and suicide are accounted separately, but there is weasle wording on the 14% in Iraq as 'part of the non-hostile deaths'. So that lumps it in with: accidents, illness and homicides. The 18% for illness is stated, previously, as invariant across the entire military, including Iraq. And as the actual death toll due to hostile fire for population size has been small, as cited by Wretchard... that is not going to make that percentage budge overmuch.

Now homicides are also an invariant at 5% across all the military deaths.

Accidents in peacetime account for 50% to 66% of all fatalities in the military, excluding illness, homicides and suicides.

Thus the relative invariants add up to: 18% + 5% + 50% = 73% due to illness, homicides and accidents *combined*. As given, and the article could have cleared this up with a few tables, added TO that is suicides. So with that you would get 100% of the non-combat total in Iraq, so renormalizing that 73% is 86% of that sub-set. I am working on this RT and expect to come up with a different answer than my original... I am coming up with 12% of the total of all deaths being suicides in Iraq. That puts the total of all non-combat deaths to combat deaths at a ratio of 85% non-combat to 15% combat in Iraq in 2004.

Damn that's a dangerous business in peacetime!

Now, are all the death tolls ensuring that we are getting an accurate reading of that 15% or are they taking spillover from other categories and attributing them to combat deaths?

I would assume the answer is *yes* as the military likes to ensure that everything is properly categorized, filed, pigeonholed and such... reporters, on the other hand, along with partisan groups... well, they tend to take a 'broader view' of things.

Fun with numbers... will have to update my previous post.

8/27/2006 08:02:00 AM  
Blogger Teresita said...

rufus

Thank God, I was wondering who was going to pay my Social Security!

Gosh, rufus, two or three of them might even be upping your final S.S. payout by contributing to FICA under your number.

8/27/2006 08:10:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

The Rule of Law Really Sucks.
Anarchy and criminal revolution is heavenly.

8/27/2006 08:32:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

La Raza!
Down with the Racist White Man!
Today, LA,
Tommorrow Azatland.

8/27/2006 08:35:00 AM  
Blogger High Power Rocketry said...

: )

8/30/2006 08:27:00 PM  

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