Monday, July 10, 2006

The Baghdad Security Plan

The attacks in the Baghdad district of Jihad, in which a number of civilians were said to be killed by Shi'ite death squads were the subject of commentary by Iraq the Model. Later, at a lengthy press conference, MNF-Iraq spokesman MG William Caldwell spent most of his time discussing the subject of whether or not the Iraqi government was winning the Battle of Baghdad. Mohammed at Iraq the Model thinks that the government isn't winning the fight.

Some time ago we pointed out the poor intelligence capabilities of the government compared to that of the militants and it looks like the current security operation did not deal seriously with this defect, on the contrary the gap seems to be even growing giving advantage to the militias and insurgents. Again I feel I must point out that security operation of the government is still not doing much to deal with the escalating violence. Personally I was for a plan based on securing one piece of territory at a time instead of attempting to secure the entire capital at once (see our earlier post) and that's because I believe the government does not possess enough tools to cover Baghdad in its entirety. The concept of power concentration seems a reliable way that can be applied in limited areas effectively and once a given area is secure that power could move to secure adjacent areas. I still think that clearing Baghdad should start from the center-out, not the other way around. ...

Baghdad is the key to Iraq, and Iraq is the key to the Middle East, and from this fact this battle draws its significance.

And it is absolutely necessary, Mohammed thinks, for the government to win in Baghdad. "Baghdad is the key to Iraq, and Iraq is the key to the Middle East, and from this fact this battle draws its significance." A lot of the subtext surrounding the Jihad incident involves the Madhi Army. Mohammed quotes another Iraqi blogger to point out how intertwined the problem of the Madhi is with it's mirror threat, the Sunni insurgency.

There will be no excuse for the Mehdi army to exist if terror groups ceased to exist and there will be no excuse for the terrorists to exist when the Sadr gangs and rats of Badr drop their weapons. one depends on the other... Whenever the government tries to disarm the militias, the terrorists would come to attack at the strongholds of the militias to give them reason to exist and whenever the government tries to attack terrorist strongholds the militias would take to the streets to distract the government and drag its forces into side battles…

At a briefing and Q&A lasting nearly an hour on July 10, MG William Caldwell returned repeatedly to the subject of the Battle for Baghdad. While the ostensible subject of the briefing was the transfer to Iraqi control of the province of Muthanna, described in a press conference a few days ago, the subsquent questions from the press dealt almost exclusively with Baghdad. However, the Caldwell's recitation of the process through which Muthanna was transferred provided essential background to the subsequent discussion because it clearly illustrated where things were going. Caldwell punctuated nearly every other sentence with reference to "the Prime Minister", "the Council of Ministers" and other local structures which the Multinational Force was manifestly determined to work through.

When the questioning turned to Baghdad, the members of the press focused upon two things: the first was to elicit some reaction from Caldwell as to whether the Madhi Army was involved; and second to get some indication as to whether Caldwell believed elements of the Iraqi Army were complicit in militia raid on a Sunni neighborhood. Caldwell weighed every word carefully. What follows is my impression of what was conveyed. The first bit of information was that Coalition Forces could could not find any more than 14 or 15 dead; a much smaller number than reported in the papers. The second was a tacit admission that Coalition Forces had been late to the scene because they responded only when asked by their Iraqi counterparts, which raised the question of how good or impaerial those counterparts were. Third, there had been a meeting with Maliki on the night before the press conference during which the Prime Minister debated proposals to "shift around" units, relieve commanders and retrain certain troops. All of it was phrased diplomatically and vaguely, but I got the impression (and I urge readers to listen to the video conference themselves) that Maliki wasn't going to take this lying down. The fourth item, was that although Caldwell could not be baited into naming the Madhi Army as the perpetrator of the massacre, his language by no means excluded them; and he did nothing to discourage the impression that they were involved. However, his obstinate refusal to name Sadr or the Madhi Army suggests (to me) that the subject remains a political Red Line which he would not lightly cross.

Despite that, Caldwell seemed relatively optimistic that things were going well, even in Baghdad. However, his idea of progress has to be qualified: it had to do with satisfaction that the Iraqi forces were beginning to function at a level they could not attain only some weeks ago. He also seemed gratified that top Iraqi leadership was attempting to come to grips with the problem rather than deny or evade it. Caldwell was perfectly willing to admit that the current level of violence was unacceptable, however he emphasized that "this is going to take time".


An earlier briefer, an General from the Engineers, quite happily described all the pipelines, petroleum stations, generating plants, water purifying facilities that they'd build which I'd never heard of in the news. The soundbite which caught my attention was his claim that the hours of electricity in Baghdad had risen to significantly more than in weeks past and that he expected a far bigger improvement before the end of summer. For some commanders, improvements in training, logistics, coordination and the knowledge of plans to which they will be put constitute a hidden source of optimism which is often invisible to outsiders. However, the ultimate test of these offstage preparations is the battlefield result. Mohammed is probably correct when he says that the Battle for Baghdad will be the key campaign of the next months. "Baghdad is the key to Iraq, and Iraq is the key to the Middle East, and from this fact this battle draws its significance." And the question is not entirely whether Iraqi forces are improving, but whether they can improve fast enough to stay in control. Victory if it comes too late is not victory at all. The time element is important here and I have no way of even guessing whether the Iraqi government will win the race.

My own reading between the lines is that Maliki wants to take down Sadr, but is looking for a way to do it without completely shattering his government. Moreover, he is discovering that it is one thing to have thousands of men in uniform and quite another to get them to follow the chain of command. In that regard it is useful to return to the briefing on Muthanna, because it provides clues as to what he is trying to achieve. My own guess is that Maliki is getting ready for a showdown in the classic manner: by getting ready. The program to transition Muthanna and other provinces, as hinted by Caldwell, is in one sense an economy of force measure which will allow redeployment of more forces to Baghdad.

Q This is Kristin Roberts with Reuters. Now that you've transferred authority over to the Iraqis in that one province, will you be able to move coalition forces into other provinces and reduce the numbers there in Muthanna?

GEN. CICHOWSKI: Well, Kristin, let me correct something here just quickly. We have not yet done that. We are in the very last stages. The prime minister has stated that it will happen. We know that it will happen in the very, very near future. The last final details are being worked out. As far as the moving of forces and the coalitions following it, yes, there is that opportunity, and there are about -- many plans that we have to go through on both the Iraqi side and on the coalition side.

The second leg is apparently force generation. More police: the Coalition emphasizing building up the police, which is largely behind the Iraqi Army in training and -- one suspects -- command and control.

GEN. CICHOWSKI: I certainly can tell you that it is the year of the police. We're making great strides. I know that General Dempsey was there last week and talked to that process as well as some of the lawmakers on the Hill. As in any type of police force, there are some that are better than others here, and those are the ones that we are working on. So we have been making great strides as a whole on both the police and on the Iraqi army.

Only time will tell whether Maliki will succeed.


Blogger Wu Wei said...

> There will be no excuse for the Mehdi army to exist if terror groups ceased to exist...

Saddam's Sunni government was a civil war. The Sunnis have been fighting a civil war against civilians ever since. If they continue down this path, then it is inevitable that the Shiites fight back.

So no amount of "Baghdad security initiatives" can fix the problem while the root cause remains, that the Sunnis refuse to accept the government and the status quo.

To me the whole political thing seems absurd. What is needed is for someone to go to the Sunnis and say "Either the car bombings against Iraqis stop, or we fight a full fledged civil war." Everything else is a waste of time.

If the Sunnis say "It is foreign terrorists, not us", then they should be told "Show us the ones you captured or turned over to the US".

Right now this reminds me of Arafat at the height of the Intifada when he would mockingly comdemn each suicide bombing, while being allowed to negotiate as if he were a man of peace. "Suicide bombers, what suicide bombers?"

Right now the Sunnis feel that these bombings help their cause. Until the balance of force is changed, there won't be peace. The Sunnis think that the one-sided civil war will win for them, and until things are balanced they won't stop it.

7/11/2006 05:06:00 AM  
Blogger Wu Wei said...

Report: U.S. returns to Geneva rights
Jul. 11, 2006 at 7:43AM
The U.S. Pentagon has quietly reverted to observing terror suspect prisoners' rights as defined by the Geneva Conventions, the Financial Times reported Tuesday.
The newspaper said U.S. Deputy Defense Secretary Gordon England sent a memo to senior military officials Friday that observance was required for prisoners around the world.
The policy change was made with no fanfare after the U.S. Supreme Court last month ruled the military commissions President George Bush created to try prisoners at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba contravened both U.S. law and the Geneva Conventions regarding access to lawyers.
Bush adopted the tribunal system in 2002, saying members of the Taliban and al-Qaida did not qualify for Geneva protection.
"This memo was a prudent and responsible thing to do," a former Bush administration official who saw it told the Times.
There are about 450 detainees being held at the military prison in Cuba.

7/11/2006 05:22:00 AM  
Blogger JP Phish said...

I have a new post, Where is "The Shia Zarqawi"? that is pertinent to this, The Baghdad Security Plan.

7/11/2006 05:37:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Gee, I agree w/wei, 5:06 AM
But Maliki should still figure out a way to off Sadr imo.
re: 5:22 Washington Times -
Full pre-school teaching privleges for serial child molesters.

7/11/2006 05:41:00 AM  
Blogger BlackOps said...

WW, I dont think you believe what you are saying.

7/11/2006 05:46:00 AM  
Blogger Dan said...

Kill the Mehdi Army - stop playing stupid. In the land of the barbaroi, the victory goes to the most cunning and most cruel. Al Sadr was our biggest single mistake without doubt. Kill him, kill his aides, annihilate his cadres. At least make an EXAMPLE out of someone. Everyone in Iraq surely knows what his happening - and everyone likes a good show.

Hurry up please this getting boring.

7/11/2006 06:05:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

No can do, dan.
Not on the Course upon which we Stay.
I'm sure that as much as Mr Maliki would like to "remove" Mr al-Sadr from the opposition, he cannot.
Murder or assassination, even combat deaths are discouraged, collateral damage to be avoided at all costs, even US lives.

That is the Course the US has charted, we are Staying it, why the outrage or surprise, now that we've run aground on the Sadrbar in Baghdad.

Mr al-Sadr and his people represent the biggest bloc of voters, learn to respect that.

This is a "new" kind of War, none of the "old" lessons apply, we have no Enemies in Iraq, at least none that have names.
Learn to live with it, like the RoE's.

It's gonna be "Long War", they keep saying, forgetting that it already has been "longer" than WWII.
But then again, the world and men, are all so "different", now. They say.

Democracy does not grow out of Anarchy, never has before in history, the world and men are not really any different, now than then.

7/11/2006 06:30:00 AM  
Blogger Wu Wei said...

> WW, I dont think you believe what you are saying.

The Iraqis believe what I'm saying, which is what matters:

Iraq Shi'ites see reasons for death squad killings - Reuters

While condemning in public the sectarian death squads that gunned down 40 people on Sunday in a Sunni part of Baghdad, some Iraqi Shi'ite leaders say in private retaliation for Sunni insurgent bomb attacks is understandable...

"It is very, very difficult for us to justify why we are not taking revenge," said a senior Shi'ite figure linked to one of the most powerful militia groups, saying that his movement was not carrying out killings but could understand those who were.

"With every car bomb and every attack on a Shi'ite mosque our people are calling us and accusing us of being cowards," said the official, who like others interviewed asked not to be identified...

"It is natural now that there are some Shi'ite fighters who think they are doing what they believe in to defend their families," said the politician, who is from one of the main parties in Maliki's national unity coalition. "I personally can't blame them, since the government cannot protect them."

As part of a plan for national reconciliation, Maliki has vowed to disband militias, mostly armed wings of Shi'ite Islamist parties formed to fight Saddam's Sunni-led government.

There have been a number of operations, involving U.S. and Iraqi forces, this month against Shi'ite guerrilla leaders. The targets, however, have mostly been rogue elements, Shi'ite sources say, who have alienated their own leaders.

Another official in one of the main Shi'ite political groups said Sunni leaders should shoulder some blame for events like Sunday's rampage in Baghdad because they had failed to clearly condemn Sunni violence since the fall of Saddam three years ago:

"The reaction is completely understandable," the official said of the Shi'ite gunmen.

"What do they expect the Shi'ites to do when they bomb them every day and Sunni leaders do not even condemn the attacks?"

7/11/2006 06:36:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

From a different local battle against Terror
"6 Explosions Strike Bombay's Commuter Rail Network During Evening Rush Hour, Indian Media Report"

Just another "localized" conflict.
Not of International scope, per the Supremes.

7/11/2006 07:07:00 AM  
Blogger Wu Wei said...

Palestinian feminism?

A group of masked Palestinian women in military fatigues called a news conference Monday in Gaza to declare that they have formed a new unit of suicide bombers. Calling themselves the "suicide sisters," they claimed to have 100 women ready to blow themselves up to kill Israelis. Ironically, reports Berger, these women are from the military wing of the Fatah party, led by moderate Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas.

7/11/2006 07:10:00 AM  
Blogger Smacko said...

Sadr is not the power center of the Shia, DR.

That is disenguous as usual.

Politically, the two DAWA blocks control as many seats as Sadr, with SCIRI controlling the most.

As for street power, bith DAWA and SCIRI are most under Sistani influence, while Sadr can be more described as a warlord.

Even your link from yesterday, while discounting the Najaf/Qom differneces among the Shia, did talk of the pending Sistani vs Sadr developments.

Iraq the Model last week spoke of possible splintering even among the Sadr group.

Sistani to date has been able to greatly influence DAWA and SCIRI.

The PM is DAWA.
SCIRI is closest to Sistani.

Iraq the Model spoke last week as well of the PM deciding to go after Sadr.

Which, with all that you read, you prolly already know.

Only a certain amount of info can be presented coreectly using the 'DR Eeyore Template'(TM), I imagine.

7/11/2006 07:17:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

The Iraqi Government, the US proxy in the Country cannot secure the Capital.
The US military cannot secure the Capital.
Not anytime soon.

w.w. tries to tell US that these subgroupings of Shia and Sunni represent different factions, which they do. Much as a Waffen SS Panzer Division was different than an Italian Infantry Brigade in WWII and the Vichey Forces in Morrocco.
Allied at a strategic levels, if only vaguely, they all had to be targeted by US. As all were "Enemies"

The SCIRI is not a US ally, nor is DAWA. Nor are the armed Sunni in the Insurrection, Civil War or what ever label suits the Administration today.
Mr Talabani said the US entered the Iraqi Civil War, and thanked US for it. He would know best, I wager.

Or are we still blaming Iraqi violence on "foreigners"?
Oh wait, what are we, there?

Anarchy has command of Baghdad, Mr Model tells the tale.
The ISF playing by US rules, does little better than US at securing the Captial. Either Mr Maliki plays by Hama rules or the Game will be lost.
Or go into over time, but then it's already planned to be a "Long War", no need to win today.

7/11/2006 07:35:00 AM  
Blogger Dan said...

I confess I do not read your posts anymore, rat.

Let me reiterate: Kill Sadr. If you have to balance the brutal tribal calculus with a similar Sunni offing, fine - all the better.

The problem here is the only ones seen to be fighting, if these reports are to be believed and taken as comprehensive, is the rival militia. This is hardly a perception adducing to the eventual goal of reducing and finally eliminating their influence. This is a fighting, not a commercial culture; and fighting is a religious, not a merely political, tenet. Iraq must be denuded of its AK47s as much as Palestine. The project to actually dismantle, not merely propose, legislate, debate and negotiate dismantlement, ought already to have been well underway. If we need another 50,000 troops, well then send another goddamn 50,000 troops. This Is staying the course, the goal of the course being a reasonably civilized self-sufficient Iraq. This is the most urgent project. The problem has been excessive deference to the utterly stupid and introverted political culture whose salient feature is a kind of bully arrested development. The point of this entire project, need it be stated, is to turn the Arab world from its idiot self-destructive self-preoccupation (with its eternal roots in its idiot book and its hitherto unkillable addicition to racial and cultural supremacy) to join the reasonably coherent, or at least manageably coherent, post-war order. You'll remember the Islamic world was relatively untouched by the catastrophies and victories that shaped the psychology of the postwar schema. The archetypical Arab clan-on-clan, militia-on-militia violence so nakedly on display in olde Baghdad has no goal other than coercion, for street-gang rep, so it cannot BE solved by appeal to blandishments and powershares and blah blah blah. They need to be Disarmed, they need to be Killed. Presumably this can be done in a targeted fashion. It will be done, one way or another, unless the Democrats succeed in forcing an early withdrawal, and then following that it will be done, but not by us, and with much, much graver consequences for everyone within eyeshot of a television or noseshot of a subway entry.

Anyway this is all so transparently obvious as to've long become boring. If you don't understand it yet, go do soemthing else, like tennis, or crochet, or solitaire, or whatever. Video games! The strategic variety, with which to better gratify your particular venality.

7/11/2006 07:44:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

I understand it perfectly, dan.
The Administration, it seems, does not.
You are correct, but as you say, the things that need doing, are not being done.

It is not an "oversight"
It is not the fault of Dan Rather

It is the Policy of the US Government writ in the sands of Arabia.

There is no call for 50,000 more troops
There is no demand for more trainers
There is no reorginzation of Forces, except for not replacing the troops rotating out.

Mr al-Sadr was given an excemption to US rules years ago,
Stay the Course.

7/11/2006 07:52:00 AM  
Blogger Wu Wei said...

We didn't target everyone in Iraq. Under Saddam Iraq was a Sunni tyranny which kept control of the Shiites and Kurds by brutal force, including poison gas.

Iraq has now been liberated. It is a democratic republic in which each faction has freedom of speech and can argue its differences in parliament.

Now that we have achieved this it is time for us to go and let all the sides fight it out. It's not our fight any more, and we have no interests over there. If there are a few foreign Al Qaeda terrorists, we can use troops from a regional base to bomb or capture them whenever intelligence becomes available.

I disagree with the idea that some larger amount of US force, or more brutal tactics could pacify Iraq. We didn't go over there to be the new Saddam Husseins. As long as there are three factions, each will stand up for itself.

Peace will come when the Sunnis want it. If more force is needed, it would be better to let the Shiites fight back in the civil war, rather than having foreigners do it.

7/11/2006 07:56:00 AM  
Blogger Wu Wei said...

> The problem here is the only ones seen to be fighting, if these reports are to be believed and taken as comprehensive, is the rival militia

That's the problem, is that those media reports are not accurate. They've grown so used to Sunni resistance killings that they are basically ignored, like background noise. Because the Sunnis stay in the shadows anonymously killing with car bombs, they slip under everyone's radar screen.

Al-Sadr's "crime", compared to the silent Sunni killers, is that he went into the mainstream, arguing in public and becoming part of the political system. He agreed to US terms, a cease fire, and the coalition forces are turning Shiite provinces over to his groups to patrol (as was reported on the Pentagon site).

Putting more US troops in Iraq would be a terrible mistake. There is no reason for us to fight an Iraqi civil war or attempt a Saddam Hussein-like pacification.

Peace will come when the Sunnis and Shiites want it. No amount of foreign troops will speed that up.

7/11/2006 08:04:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

This time, w.w., you hit the nail on the head.
Exactly right.
The Battle of Iraq, it is not International in scope, just like Afghanistan.
Just a series of localized brush fires. Damn that arsonist.

7/11/2006 08:06:00 AM  
Blogger Wu Wei said...

The Kurds just want to be left alone in freedom. As long as they can be independent, they support the government.

The Shia are glad that we liberated them. They are the majority so they support the government.

The Sunnis hate our guts and always will. Many of them are bitter about losing power, and don't support the government.

So really the enemy here is the Sunni people, which is not something we can fight with a war. A political solution is needed.

7/11/2006 08:17:00 AM  
Blogger Dave H said...

Probably only domestic politics makes it a neccessity for the current administration to "stay the course".

Bush's current policy amounts to abuse of the troops, and is going to have a heavy political backlash.

Yet the administration cannot give up without conceding evertyhing to the idiotarian left.

Best Scenario I can see is to heat up Iran and the Norks to where the troops must pull out for use in other areas. I don't think they have the stones to do it.

Too many economic consequences if they take out Iran, maybe they will make an example of the little pot bellied lunatic. Far sighted of Bush to have labelled him as part of the "Axis of Evil", way back when.

7/11/2006 08:20:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

w.w., you were doing so well.
We could fight a War and defeat the Sunni people, in under 30 days.
We will not do it, though.

That is a "political" decision, as is letting Mr a -Sadr remain "temporalily alive".

If we were at war with the Sunni, we could end it victoriously, in Iraq, while at the same time losing it in Saudi Arabia.
The KSA being more important, to US, than Iraq.
In all reality. Check the oil import figures, the KSA is vital to US.
So to counter that we could support the Shia is eastern KSA, where the oil is, in empowering themselves. But that would bode ill for "stability".
It does not play to the Supreme's local conflict scenario, either.

7/11/2006 08:30:00 AM  
Blogger JP Phish said...

Information is flowing out of heads as if it were fact; from heads imagining war; imagining strife in baghdad.

For a pause take a read at slides 42-45 at this site.

7/11/2006 08:44:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

As regards Mr Kim, both the South Koreans and the Chinese have watched East Germany with interest.

The South Koreans with some horror.
East Germany was no where near the basket case that NorK resembles.
doug's "show me the light" photo told that tale.

The Chinese hold a similar view, not wanting hundreds of thousands of Korean refugees streaming north.

Both will try to cement the status que in place. The prospect of Mr Kim's government collapsing worse than the threat he really poses to his nearest neighbors.

7/11/2006 08:45:00 AM  
Blogger Wu Wei said...

> We could fight a War and defeat the Sunni people, in under 30 days.

No way. Absolutely not. That's the same thing they said in Vietnam.

What is your war tactic, kill every one of them? Would we do the same thing as the militia, ask people for identification and shoot them if they are Sunnis? Set up torture chambers like Saddam?

We already occupied every inch of their territory. Have destroyed their army and every weapon larger than small arms.

The reality is that short of extermination if people want to be free, then no one can stop them.

7/11/2006 08:45:00 AM  
Blogger Wu Wei said...

I meant to say the reality is that short of extermination if people want to be free, then nothing can stop them from fighting back.

7/11/2006 08:48:00 AM  
Blogger Dave H said...

wu wei, if what the Sunni's wanted was to be "free", they would get a lot of sympathy, but what they want is return to the satus quo of Saddam.

If we just leave, it will probably come down to "ethnic cleansing" ala Albania, with mass exodus of thise able to get away, extermination for the remainder.

In cold blood,I think we would have been wiser to set up Kurdistan and furnish them support as needed to take Iraqi, Irani and Turkish territory as needed plus any other odd Kurdish bits lying around. We could have concentrated our efforts on stopping Iran from taking over the rest of Iraq. All too late now.

7/11/2006 09:02:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

fabulous data.

I think the pages 6 - 17 show a marked increase in dissatisfaction from November '05 to the present.

From the preElection expectations to the realities of the current Government.
Page 6 illustrates "right direction" dropping from a high of 67% a year ago to 30% in March. Things have not gotten better since then, per Mr Model.

page 41 is enlightening, as well.

7/11/2006 09:04:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Any peoples "will to fight" can be broken. There are costs involved.
In Syria it was the town of Hama and aprox. 30,000 lives. Not a genocide, perhaps, but a lot of dead "innocents".
Then again, if we were at War with the Sunni people, as you say, w.w., they are not innocent.

That again being the point. We are not at War with the Sunni. Perhaps we should be, but we're not.

In Ramadi the Tal Afar model is finally being implemented. The "bad guys", instead of fighting, reportedly have migrated to Baghdad.

Perhaps that is a measure of success, perhaps not. Mr Model does not seem to think so.

7/11/2006 09:14:00 AM  
Blogger whit said...

1. Baghdad is about the size of Los Angeles and a short time ago had virtually no police force.

2. Saddam was deposed a relatively short time ago. Democratically elected Govt. even shorter.

3. Domestic military and police forces are in process of building.

Sectarian violence although bad, does not rise to anywhere near civil war status as was the case in Lebanon and should not be used as a indicator of losing the war in Baghdad.

The situation in Baghdad looks bad but in comparison to other conflicts around the world and throughout history it's not that bad and has great potential for improvement.

7/11/2006 09:36:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Death Toll at 105 in India Train Bombings

By RAMOLA TALWAR BADAM, The Associated Press
Jul 11, 2006 8:45 AM (45 mins ago)

BOMBAY, India - Seven bombs hit Bombay's commuter rail network during rush hour Tuesday evening, killing at least 105 people and wounding more than 300 in what authorities called a well-coordinated attack. ..."

7/11/2006 09:38:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Up to 131 dead, as of 2 minutes ago.

7/11/2006 09:41:00 AM  
Blogger RWE said...

Two headlines from this morning:

"131 Killed in Indian Train Bomb Attacks"

"Sunnis to End Government Boycot: Attacks Kill 47"

Sure will be great when Iraq is a nice, stable and safe democracy like India.

7/11/2006 09:47:00 AM  
Blogger whit said...

Hindus do not react well to this sort of provocation. The next few days could be see some very blood reprisals around the country.

Pressure will mount on the National government.

7/11/2006 09:48:00 AM  
Blogger RWE said...

Anyone think they planned to hit in India on the anniversary of the London bombings and could not quite get their act together in time?

7/11/2006 09:49:00 AM  
Blogger JP Phish said...

I read the flow of heads imagining what war is like

Brilliant military tacticians discerning events from far

Opining and disparaging of the void in Baghdad

The void of brilliance such as theirs.

In the heads of soldiers in that city of strife.

7/11/2006 10:00:00 AM  
Blogger Wu Wei said...

Hama declared itself to be an Islamic town, by a group without large support in the overall country. We also set an example when Fallujah tried the same thing.

What is happening now is resistance within the Sunni population, classic guerrilla tactics. As Mao said, "Guerrillas are the fish, and the population is the sea in which they swim". They wouldn't exist without the support of the Sunni population. The Sunnis are not driven by Islam, but to get power within their country.

7/11/2006 10:49:00 AM  
Blogger Habu_1 said...

Does this mean that Oliver Stone won't be releasing,"The Griswalds' Iraqi Vacation" in time for the Christmas Holidays? Darn.

7/11/2006 10:55:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

It certainly good to know what is the motivational drive of the 5 million Sunni Iraqi, w.w.
Each and every one.

Yes, fish in the sea, in Mayalasia the Brits drained the sea, caught or killed the fish.

In Salvador the sea turned against the fish, they swam on home.

Neither option is viable in those areas of jp's link, page 41, where the Insurgents are welcomed as the local security force.

Those people will have to disabused of that idea,
by US or by other Iraqis, or not.

I do not believe the US will do the deed, as we are already heading for the docks.
The Humvees rolling on home.

The ISF is still held firmly on a US leash, as last week's story from Camp Taji indicated.

For how long will Mr Maliki and the ISF Generals can allow anarchy to reign, before they apply more regionally historic norms of control, over US objections, that is the real question.

7/11/2006 11:08:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

The Brits used similar tactics against the Boer in South Africa.
A more proud and willful ethnic gtoup of swimming fish there never was, and their Will to Fight was broken.

The US lacks the Will for such an effort, the Iraqi may not.
Just drain the lake.

Post WWII Europe saw mass relocations of ethnic Germans.
As did India, having massed relocations based on Religious sect, post Independence.

7/11/2006 11:16:00 AM  
Blogger Dan said...

jp phish - this powerpoint is exactly what i'm talking about.

no matter how wonderful anyone thinks his cause is no one wants a bunch of toyotas driving around with 18 year olds with AK47s enforcing anything.

(Kill Sadr! = emasculation in Olde Irak! Hooray, dumbfucks!)

7/11/2006 11:36:00 AM  
Blogger Dan said...

And what's the point of your sarcastic lament? No one reads this site anyway and if they do it has no influence. Stop gumming up the flow with your bitchery.

Oh wait - no, I'll leave.

7/11/2006 11:38:00 AM  
Blogger Habu_1 said...

Dan posted at 6:05 something on the order of, Kill the Mehdi Army.

DR countered post haste at 6:30 with a NO CAN DO....long war...learn to live with it. much as you've read me about killing lots of the enemy, I continue to read you as to NO CAN DO and then a litany of interwoven reasons why we can't.
Well if our intelligence is so poor that we don't know what's what then it would appear that your reasonings on the NO CAN DO side are darts shot at a board, whereas if we kill them, for sure many problems are solved. I don't think we have to learn to live with it, we just don't have the cojones to do the job.

7/11/2006 11:40:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

It is not that we
Can Not, habu

It is that we
Do Not

There are many options available
The option to empower Mr al-Sadr by excempting him from Iraqi warrants & arrest and from direct action US retribution was made long ago. It is part of established US Policy towards Iraq. It has been decided.

The General will not even put a name the Enemy, not the one habu, whit, dan or I see. Mr al-Sadr.

That is a political policy decision, made by Mr Bush and his staff. He is the Decider in Chief. Learn to live with it.

That is just another part and parcel of the Course. Mr al-Sadr lives and is a force to be reckoned with, in Baghdad & beyond.

7/11/2006 11:54:00 AM  
Blogger Wu Wei said...

> It certainly good to know what is the motivational drive of the 5 million Sunni Iraqi, w.w.
Each and every one.

I give the Sunnis the Arafat test: I'll believe there are moderate Sunnis once they turn in or jail even a single Sunni involved with suicide bombing of Shiites.

7/11/2006 11:57:00 AM  
Blogger Wu Wei said...

al-Sadr's day is coming. Once he challenges Sistani for power, Sistani will give the green light for eliminating Sadr. Until then Sadr is a tool to be used.

7/11/2006 12:01:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

I just stand in support of the President's policies, trying to explain them to dan.

I think that some of Mr Bush's strategic concepts, like "stand up, stand down" may have been sabatogued or, more likely, the culture of the Military just doomed the successful implementation of the concept in a two year timeframe.

The ISF in Kirkurk just got it's own logistical support up. That would be an ethnicly Kurdish unit, most likely. So some slow progress is being made, in the more secure Regions.

7/11/2006 12:07:00 PM  
Blogger bobalharb said...

There is a large and growing traffic in alternative ID cards in Baghdad. One needs to have a Shia card in a Shia neighborhood, Sunni card in Sunni areas. And both in mixed areas. Read a short piece about one young poor fellow who was standing at a bus stop with a couple of other guys when a pickup pulls up and checks ID's. This fellow had the presence of mind to pull out the correct ID card, thereby excaping the fate of the other two, who got dragged off to death, and probably torture, for having the wrong identity. Retribution for some crime they probably had nothing to do with, perhaps committed before they were even born. It's a sad situation. Certainly makes one appreciate being able to walk to the grocery store in safety. One needs steely eyes to contemplate such a situation without flinching.

7/11/2006 12:08:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_1 said...

My ancestors found it hard to just live with the stamp act circa 1765. We didn't just learn to live with it.
Like we seem to be saying, no cojones, as oil goes to $70 a barrel and W becomes the same wobbly president his dad made. Unfortuneately he doesn't have a Maggie Thatcher to keep his knees from collapsing.
I still say a lot more killing will get this thing in hand. Covert death squads, exploding cigars,poison figs, whatever it takes to silence the opposition.
I know...then we're just like them...well no we're not.

7/11/2006 12:09:00 PM  
Blogger bobalharb said...

Exploding cigars? Most of those folks can't afford cigars, you'll just be killing off the upper classes. Which may not be such a bad idea, depending on one's outlook. :>)

7/11/2006 12:17:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

habu is still thinking of Mr Castro.

Those were the days.
These are the days of futures past, coming again this fall to Havana.
Iran, Cuba, Venezuela, Bolivia. Wonder what other flotsom will arrive at the beach party.

Iranian Reactors for Venezuela, that'd be my guess for a Public Announcement.

7/11/2006 12:25:00 PM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

Why do we think that Maliki is babbling about putting American soldiers on trial in Iraq when they are accused of rape or other "crimes" by Iraqi's? Is it apparent to him that this would be a 100% certain back-handed method to get Americans to pack up and move out en masse immediately?

That we will NOT allow a neophyte Iraqi justice system based upon Shariah law to sit in judgement of our soldiers?

Karzai is making the same noises in Afghanistan. Is it coordinated?

To what end?

7/11/2006 01:22:00 PM  
Blogger Wu Wei said...

Maliki is a big disappointment. It almost seems like he doesn't realize there's a war going on. His latest angle seems to be that there will be no amnesty for anyone, and that all the troops have to fight under civilian law. If we ignore the war, maybe it will go away, it almost sounds like.

7/11/2006 01:49:00 PM  
Blogger Wu Wei said...

If Maliki is serious about taking our immunity away, then good luck to him defending the green zone himself, because we won't be there.

7/11/2006 01:51:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

7:17 AM Oh my Gaawd!
Smacko got me to laugh!
Even mud throwers sometimes entertain.
I want my federal Grant for my Scotish Superiorty Society.
Write you Senators to send him his
Racist Rights Money tm.
Karl Rove Speaks to La Raza
Feds Pay La Raza $15,000,000
Scheduled outage at 4:00PM. Learn more.

7/11/2006 01:59:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

1:51 PM Wu:
Don't be so sure:
This Whitehouse has learned it's lessons from the localized, non evil doer terrorists well:
It's not his daughters dying, anymore than it is HIS neighborhood being destroyed by illegals.
I really don't like this guy much anymore.

7/11/2006 02:02:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Mr. Pantano says Troops are being killed and injured everyday second guessing themselves BEFORE DEFENDING THEMSELVES.
What a SAD excuse for a CIC!

7/11/2006 02:04:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"Write your Senators to send me my
Racist Rights Money tm."

7/11/2006 02:06:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"Iranian Reactors for Venezuela, that'd be my guess for a Public Announcement. "
We know what JFK would do,
Just like we know what GWB will NOT do.
...Condi would not like it, which means Madeline would not like it, which means the CFR would not like it, which means skull and bones would not like it, which means...

7/11/2006 02:11:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_1 said...

Maliki,Sadr you visit. Small cordial group. Tell them what to say and when to say it. Tell them if they don't we'll feed their relatives to feral hogs in Mississippi and blow their brains out with lard covered bullets.
No negotitation.
No compromise.
Repeat process until desired outcome results.
It's worked for centuries. Most recently inside the Aquarium (GRU HDqtrs) and the wet works guys at the KGB.
I don't want their respect. I don't care if they kill each other. I don't care if they have democracy or dung. I want their oil at $15 a barrel...better yet free or at least as payment for our blood and treasure.
I do want them to fear us and the hell we can bring if they cross the lines WE draw.
Absolutely nothing personal, it's just good old fashion diplomacy.

7/11/2006 02:12:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Kinder and Gentler
Compassionate "Conservative"
BS !

7/11/2006 02:12:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"I know...then we're just like them...well no we're not. "
The most human and humane people I've known were WWII Vets:
Wonder how many of them committed unspeakable acts that made them
"Just like Them tm ?"

7/11/2006 02:18:00 PM  
Blogger El_Heffe said...

WW said:

"The policy change was made with no fanfare after the U.S. Supreme Court last month ruled ..."

Ladies and gentlmen this is what civillian control of the military looks like... the courts rule and the services comply...

Regardless of how you may feel about the court's ruling on its own merits, military compliance with civillian directives is a beautiful thing in its own right.

Power... Controlled.

Can you imagine the Chinese or Russian military doing the same were their judiciaries to inconvieniently overule their executives?

God bless america.

7/11/2006 02:29:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Here's that picture Rat was refering to of No Korea at nite.
nighttime The Dark Side

"You said how controlled?

The control was complete, absolute.
We went nowhere without the controllers.
We spoke to no one without the permission of the controllers.
The people we spoke to tended to be official guides at museums, other public monuments, that sort of thing.
It's hard for anyone in the West, I would say hard for anyone who's never been to North Korea to imagine what it's like, because the discipline is so great that everybody you're allowed to talk to gives you what are clearly programmed answers and sometimes they're non sequiturs.
"...I would say hard for anyone who's never been to North Korea to imagine what it's like:.

So GWB is excused if he can't figure it out.

7/11/2006 02:42:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

The "same" Court ruled almost exactly the oppossite when FDR was president.
But FDR was a man, as were some of the men on the court.
...long ago and far away.

7/11/2006 02:45:00 PM  
Blogger ppab said...

el heffe:

You remind us that its a feature of our system, i.e. our restraint embodies a functionality that is generally valuable and could just as soon produce adaptation as a new frilly uniform.

But the connection between our military and its "civilian" control may only be an asset under certain conditions.

For awhile, its been asked if the conditions underwhich the GWOT is fought make such a functionality more of a liability. Its at least possible that in some circumstances, this functionality would not be preferred, as in a case where the "civilian" control is outright subversive, be it through category error and good intentions or downright maloevolence.

I hope I'm being too short-sighted when I propose that regimes such as Russia and China which diverge sharply from the Western Human Rights regimes preferred by our "civilians" are better prepared to protect themselves from extrinsic and intrinsic manifestations of ascendant Radical Islam.

Perhaps such divergence will not last forever, as internal pressures bring those nations into line with the obviously more advanced human rights regimes conceived over here. But perhaps not; and perhaps we're fools for fancying such hilarious notions about our sworn enemies.

7/11/2006 02:50:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

FDR's Court did not "Invent" a New Constitution.
...approved by Socialist Eunichs in Power.

7/11/2006 02:53:00 PM  
Blogger Wu Wei said...

Don't worry. Iraq will use the UNITED NATIONS to replace the US armed forces! Those gray helmets are the answer.

Iraqi politicians are considering a formal request for U.N. troops to provide security, a Sunni official said on Tuesday, as attackers killed as many as 37 people across the country.

Alaa Makki -- a spokesman for the country's largest Sunni bloc, the Iraqi Accord Front -- said it took six hours for Americans to respond to the killing of at least 40 unarmed Sunnis in western Baghdad Sunday. Iraqi security forces didn't respond at all, he said.

7/11/2006 02:55:00 PM  
Blogger Wu Wei said...

I meant blue helmets, of course.

7/11/2006 02:56:00 PM  
Blogger Wu Wei said...

It just amazes me how the Shiites continue to let the Sunnis run the country. The Sunnis launch car bombs at civilians every day and nothing is said, but on the rare occasion when the Sunnis come under counter attack, there is a government investigation and no one can respond quickly enough.

7/11/2006 03:02:00 PM  
Blogger JP Phish said...

On June 20th of this year Mowaffak al-Rubaie, Iraq's national security adviser, wrote an article in the Washington Post entitled The Way Out of Iraq: A Road Map. He starts the article as follows:

There has been much talk about a withdrawal of U.S. and coalition troops from Iraq, but no defined timeline has yet been set. There is, however, an unofficial "road map" to foreign troop reductions that will eventually lead to total withdrawal of U.S. troops. This road map is based not just on a series of dates but, more important, on the achievement of set objectives for restoring security in Iraq

He goes on to explain the plan and it is compatible with the plan LT GEN discussed in his briefing yesterday, with each governorate taking over full security reponsibility, one governorate at a time, and only when a review has determined that it can do so successfully.

This is full effort, and Iraq wants our troops to be there at least long enough to complete the security transition, and al-Maliki will NOT force us out with demands to put our troops under Iraqi Laws.

7/11/2006 03:05:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"-- said it took six hours for Americans to respond to the killing of at least 40 unarmed Sunnis in western Baghdad Sunday. Iraqi security forces didn't respond at all, he said."
Stay the Course:
I sure as Hell wouldn't respond, nor would I want my son to.
...haven't had a murder conviction in my family for a long time, don't need one now.

7/11/2006 03:19:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

3:02 PM
It's the Whitehouse Senate Strategy
(Let Teddy K Run the Country)
played out in Iraq.

7/11/2006 03:22:00 PM  
Blogger El_Heffe said...

bloodydarkpastryman said:

"But the connection between our military and its 'civilian' control may only be an asset under certain conditions."

May I respectfully disagree?

"Live Free or DIE"

If we are to "Live Free", then civillian control of the military is an absolute requirement (witness the afore mentioned China and Russia).

However, though the calculus of darwin certainly allows a civillian populace (or its government) to employ its military effectively in its defense, there is nothing to require this.

... So "or DIE" will always be an option.

And let's face it honestly, if death were at the door, and our will to live were lacking, then wouldn't we only be getting what we deserved?

So a toast to civillian control of the military... May the doctors who treat our body politic never find that we have written "DO NOT RESUSCITATE" in our chart.


7/12/2006 07:33:00 AM  
Blogger George M Weinert V said...

It has best be good - these are some cruel bastards:
SUNAN ABU-DAWUD, BOOK 38: Prescribed Punishments (Kitab Al-Hudud)Partial
Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 38:Prescribed Punishments (Kitab Al-Hudud)

There are some of the "Wise Sayings" of the Prophet Mohammed from SUNAN ABU-DAWUD, BOOK 38: Prescribed Punishments (Kitab Al-Hudud)Partial - Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 38: This file is available at - IslamonLine

Book 38, Number 4339:
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
The Apostle of Allah (peee_be_upon_him) Said: The blood of a Muslim man who
testifies that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle
should not lawfully be shed except only for one of three reasons: a man who
committed fornication after marriage, in which case he should be stoned; one
who goes forth to fight with Allah and His Apostle, in which case he should be killed or crucified or exiled from the land; or one who commits murder for which he is killed.

In other words, Muslims can get away with a lot because they are MUSLIMS of course!

Book 38, Number 4348:
Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas:
A blind man had a slave-mother who used to abuse the Prophet
(peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. He forbade her but she did not stop. He
rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to slander
the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and abuse him. So he took a dagger, placed it
on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs
was smeared with the blood that was there. When the morning came, the Prophet
(peace_be_upon_him) was informed about it.
He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man who has done this
action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up. Jumping
over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up.
He sat before the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Apostle of Allah! I am
her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her, but she
did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two
sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she began to
abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed
it till I killed her
Thereupon the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation
is payable for her blood.

It's ok for a Muslim to murder his wife - and there is no punishment at all Muslims believe that women are their "Till" (property) and one can see in verse 4:34 beating women is prescribed in the Quran in a very unequivocal language. Visit (The Revolutionary Women of Afghanistan) for additional details.

Book 38, Number 4349:
Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib:
A Jewess used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. A
man strangled her till she died. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him)
declared that no recompense was payable for her blood.

Who cares about a filthy Jew anyway?

Book 38, Number 4356:
Narrated Abdullah ibn Umar:
Some people raided the camels of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him), drove them
off, and apostatised. They killed the herdsman of the Apostle of Allah
(peace_be_upon_him) who was a believer. He (the Prophet) sent (people) in
pursuit of them and they were caught. He had their hands and feet cut off, and their eyes put out. The verse regarding fighting against Allah and His Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) was then revealed. These were the people about whom Anas ibn Malik informed al-Hajjaj when he asked him.

Hands and feet cut off? Eyes put out? SHEESH! Muslims really get angry when you take a camel - that means NO SEX!

Book 38, Number 4357:
Narrated AbuzZinad:
When the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) order men to cut off (the hands and feet of)
those who had stolen his camels and he had their eyes put out by fire (heated
nails), Allah reprimanded him on that (action), and Allah, the Exalted,
revealed: "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Apostle
and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is execution or

Yes, crucifixion is a far more merciful way to go

Book 38, Number 4359:
Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas:
The verse "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Apostle,
and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is execution, or
crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite side
or exile from the land...most merciful" was revealed about polytheists. If any of them repents before they are arrested, it does not prevent from inflicting on him the prescribed punishment which he deserves.

Even if you repent they'll still cut off your hands and legs! MUSLIMS ARE SAVAGES!

Book 38, Number 4367:
Narrated AbuUmayyah al-Makhzumi:
A thief who had accepted (having committed theft) was brought to the Prophet
(peace_be_upon_him), but no good were found with him. The Apostle of Allah
(peace_be_upon_him), said to him: I do not think you have stolen. He said:
Yes, I have. He repeated it twice or thrice. So he gave orders. His hand was
cut off and he was then brought to him
. He said: Ask Allah's pardon and turn
to Him in repentance. He said: I ask Allah's pardon and turn to Him in
repentance. He (the Prophet) then said: O Allah, accept his repentance.

Mo had a very nice collection of severed hands and feet as well

Book 38, Number 4373:
Narrated Abdullah ibn Umar:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) had a man's hand cut off who had stolen from
the place reserved for women a shield whose price was three dirhams.

Don't EVER mess with the shield of a Muslim! Hands are still severed on a regular basis in Muslim lands for petty theft.

Book 38, Number 4374:
Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas:
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) had a man's hand cut off for
(stealing) a shield whose price was a dinar or ten dirhams.

The Prophet had a lot of severed hands

Book 38, Number 4389:
Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: There are three (persons) whose actions
are not recorded: a sleeper till he awakes, a boy till he reaches puberty, and
a lunatic till he comes to reason.

This is why the Arabs always have LUNATICS for their political leaders

Book 38, Number 4396:
Narrated Jabir ibn Abdullah:
A thief was brought to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him). He said: Kill him. The
people said: He has committed theft, Apostle of Allah! Then he said: Cut off
his hand. So his (right) hand was cut off
. He was brought a second time and he said: Kill him. The people said: He has committed theft, Apostle of Allah!
Then he said: Cut off his foot.
So his (left) foot was cut off.
He was brought a third time and he said: Kill him.
The people said: He has committed theft, Apostle of Allah!
So he said: Cut off his hand. (So his (left) hand was cut off.)
He was brought a fourth time and he said: Kill him.
The people said: He has committed theft, Apostle of Allah!
So he said: Cut off his foot. So his (right) foot was cut off.
He was brought a fifth time and he said: Kill him.
So we took him away and killed him. We then dragged him and cast him into a
well and threw stones over him

You've GOT TO BE KIDDING! Muslims are taught that this banal barbarity represents divine justice and is the ideal since their Bloody "Prophet" engaged in such primitive barbarism.

Book 38, Number 4397:
Narrated Fadalah ibn Ubayd:
A thief was brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and his hand
was cut off. Thereafter he commanded for it, and it was hung on his neck.

A Muslim necktie?

Book 38, Number 4405:
Narrated Nu'aym ibn Huzzal:
Yazid ibn Nu'aym ibn Huzzal, on his father's authority said: Ma'iz ibn Malik
was an orphan under the protection of my father. He had illegal sexual
intercourse with a slave-girl belonging to a clan. My father said to him: Go
to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and inform him of what you have
done, for he may perhaps ask Allah for your forgiveness. His purpose in that
was simply a hope that it might be a way of escape for him.
So he went to him and said: Apostle of Allah! I have committed fornication, so
inflict on me the punishment ordained by Allah. He (the Prophet) turned away
from him, so he came back and said: Apostle of Allah! I have committed
fornication, so inflict on me the punishment ordained by Allah. He (again)
turned away from him, so he came back and said: Apostle of Allah! I have
committed fornication, so inflict on me the punishment ordained by Allah.
When he uttered it four times, the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said:
You have said it four times. With whom did you commit it?
He replied: With so and so. He asked: Did you lie down with her? He replied:
Yes. He asked: Had your skin been in contact with hers? He replied. Yes. He
asked: Did you have intercourse with her? He said: Yes. So he (the Prophet)
gave orders that he should be stoned to death. He was then taken out to the
Harrah, and while he was being stoned he felt the effect of the stones and
could not bear it and fled. But Abdullah ibn Unays encountered him when those
who had been stoning him could not catch up with him. He threw the bone of a
camel's foreleg at him, which hit him and killed him. They then went to the
Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and reported it to him.
He said: Why did you not leave him alone. Perhaps he might have repented and
been forgiven by Allah.

Marital Infidelity is no big deal when a Muslim male does it but the women are KILLED IN A MOST CRUEL FASHION

Book 38, Number 4412:
Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas:
Ma'iz ibn Malik came to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and admitted
fornication twice. But he drove him away. He then came and admitted
fornication twice. But he drove him away. He then came and admitted
fornication twice. He (the Prophet) said: You have testified to yourself four
times. Take him away and stone him to death.

Mo was hard of hearing so folks had to repeat a lot when speaking with him but never missed an opportunity to ORDER HIS VICTIMS STONED TO DEATH OR CRUCIFIED!

Book 38, Number 4413:
Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said to Ma'iz ibn Malik: Perhaps you kissed,
or squeezed, or looked. He said: No. He then said: Did you have intercourse
with her? He said: Yes. On the (reply) he (the Prophet) gave order that he
should be stoned to death.

Muslims really like stoning folks to death and the followers of the "Holy" Ayatollah Khomeini who was quite pragmatic about the whole barbaric affair - "If Allah says stone them to death, through the Prophet Muhammad, then you stone them to death, because it's the obedience of Allah and his messenger -- nothing personal" - Khomeini.

Book 38, Number 4421:
Narrated Al-Lajlaj al-Amiri:
I was working in the market. A woman passed carrying a child. The people
rushed towards her, and I also rushed along with them.
I then went to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) while he was asking: Who is the
father of this (child) who is with you? She remained silent.
A young man by her side said: I am his father, Apostle of Allah!
He then turned towards her and asked: Who is the father of this child with
The young man said: I am his father, Apostle of Allah! The Apostle of Allah
(peace_be_upon_him) then looked at some of those who were around him and asked
them about him. They said: We only know good (about him).
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said to him: Are you married? He said: Yes. So
he gave orders regarding him and he was stoned to death.
He (the narrator) said: We took him out, dug a pit for him and put him in it.
We then threw stones at him until he died. A man then came asking about the
man who was stoned.
We brought him to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and said: This man has come
asking about the wicked man.
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: He is more agreeable than the
fragrance of musk in the eyes of Allah. The man was his father. We then helped
him in washing, shrouding and burying him. (The narrator said:) I do not know
whether he said or did not say "in praying over him." This is the tradition of
Abdah, and it is more accurate.

Muslims in Iran dig a pit, bury a helpless victim up to their waist so they cannot escape and then proceed to throw stones at the head until they are dead MUSLIM MEN ARE SO BRAVE!

Book 38, Number 4429:
Narrated AbuBakrah:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) had a woman stoned and a pit was dug up to her

They are still doing this in 2005 in Iran This hatred of women is a common feature of the Muslim male and is actually a case of vaginal envy - Nearly half of Muslim men are HOMOSEXUALS and half of these MUST ASSUME THE FEMALE ROLE DURING THE SODOMY that they engage in every Friday after their 'religious' services at the Mosques that serve as meeting places for GAY MEN. Thus, MANY QUEER MUSLIM MEN ACTUALLY WISH TO BE WOMEN SO THEY CAN HAVE A REAL VAGINA AND NOT JUST A SORE REAR - Muslim males are normally seen SITTING ON PILLOWS - THIS IS BECAUSE THEY ALL HAVE A VERY TENDER RECTUM FROM REPEATED SODOMY AND CANNOT SIT DOWN MOST OF THE TIME. Many MUSLIMS ARE ALSO TRANSSEXUALS as well and BADLY DESIRE A SEX CHANGE OPERATION which could be easily accomplished since the MUSLIMS HAVE NO BALLS AT ALL - but this option is simply unavailable in the Islamic world. That is why the QUEER JIHAD is so vital for Muslims today - for more information, visit us at Queer Jihad

Book 38, Number 4445:
Narrated Salamah ibn al-Muhabbaq:
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) made a decision about a man who had
intercourse with his wife's slave-girl as follows. If he forced her, she is
free, and he shall give her mistress a slave-girl similar to her; if she asked
him to have intercourse voluntarily, she will belong to him, and he shall give
her mistress a slave-girl similar to her.

Slavery is still quite common in Mauratania, Sudan, Ethiopia, Kuwait and even Saudi Arabia.

Book 38, Number 4446:
Narrated Salamah ibn al-Muhabbaq:
A similar tradition (to the No. 4445) has also been transmitted by Salamah ibn
al-Muhabbaq from the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him).
This version has: If she asked her to have intercourse with her voluntarily,
then she and a similar slave-girl would be given to her mistress from his

Do see why Muslims still keep slaves? EVEN MUSLIM WOMEN ARE LESBIANS! (This is seen most often in the Nation of Islam - BLACK MUSLIM WOMEN ARE LESBIANS!) 1

Book 38, Number 4449:
Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: If anyone has sexual intercourse with an
animal, kill him and kill it along with him. I (Ikrimah) said: I asked him
(Ibn Abbas): What offence can be attributed to the animal/ He replied: I think
he (the Prophet) disapproved of its flesh being eaten when such a thing had
been done to it.

Book 38, Number 4450:
Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas:
There is no prescribed punishment for one who has sexual intercourse with an

No but the Ayatollah Khomeini tells Muslims how to do it in the proper Islamic way -

Narrated Abdullah ibnA man can have sex with animals such as sheep¹s, cows, camels and so on.
However he should kill the animal after he has his orgasm. He should not sell the meat to the people in his own village, however selling the meat to the next door village should be fine.

From Khomeini's book, "Tahrirolvasyleh", fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom, Iran, 1990


"If one commits the act of sodomy with a cow, a ewe, or a
, their urine and their excrements become impure, and
even their milk may no longer be consumed. The animal must
then be killed and as quickly as possible and burned."

The little green book, Sayings of Ayatollah Khomeini,
Political, Phylosophica, Social and Religious with a special
introduction by Clive Irving, ISBN number 0-553-14032-9, page
47 Abbas:

Book 38, Number 4458:
Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib:
A slave-girl belonging to the house of the Apostle of Allah
(peace_be_upon_him) committed fornication. He (the Prophet) said: Rush up,
Ali, and inflict the prescribed punishment on her. I then hurried up, and saw
that blood was flowing from her, and did not stop. So I came to him and he
said: Have you finished inflicting (punishment on her)? I said: I went to her
while her blood was flowing. He said: Leave her alone till her bleeding stops;
then inflict the prescribed punishment on her. And inflict the prescribed
punishment on those whom your right hands possess (i.e. slaves).

Yeah - wait till the bleeding stops and THEN CONTINUE THE FLOGGING!

Book 38, Number 4466:
Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib:
The Apostle of Allah (peees_be_upon_him) and AbuBakr gave forty lashes for
drinking wine and Umar made it eighty. And all this is sunnah, the model and
standard practice.

These verses can be found at: IslamonLine

This is NOT RADICAL OR EXTREMIST - THIS IS MAINSTREAM ISLAM - these are the ideas that ALL Muslims are taught from their youngest years and are the basic principles that have been used to formulate Sharia Law throughout the Islamic world. If you'd like to know the REAL STORY behind the atavistic anthropoids popularly known as "Muslims" then go read them for yourself.

Praise the Lord and God Bless America,
George M Weinert V - American Jihad Blog - American Jihad Townhall - Islams Ultimate Expose - The Valley of Death Blog - Queer Muslims - American Jihad Yahoo

1 See:Queer Spirituality

Al-Fatiha GLBT Muslim Group based in the US
Leyla's Chayhane - beautiful site on Islam and issues of transgender,
highly recommended
Queer Sexuality in the Qur'an and Hadith by Faris Malik
Queer Muslims Home Page
Queer Theory - Page devoted to the needs of queer Muslims
People Can Change - Devoted to overcoming homosexuality, from a
Leyla's Chayhane - beautiful site on Islam and issues of transgender,
highly recommended
Transgender Forum
Transgender Issues
Transgender Support Site

7/14/2006 11:36:00 AM  

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