Wednesday, February 08, 2006

The past as prologue

The Ranting Sandmonkey, an Egyptian blog, illustrates just how bogus the MSM refusal to discuss the Danish cartoons "out of respect for Islam" is:

Freedom For Egyptians reminded me why the cartoons looked so familiar to me: they were actually printed in the Egyptian Newspaper Al Fagr back in October 2005. I repeat, October 2005, during Ramadan, for all the egyptian muslim population to see, and not a single squeak of outrage was present. Al Fagr isn't a small newspaper either: it has respectable circulation in Egypt, since it's helmed by known Journalist Adel Hamoudah. Looking around in my house I found the copy of the newspaper, so I decided to scan it and present to all of you to see.

One of those pictures is shown below.



First the BBC reports that a spurious pig-picture was included in the Jyllands-Posten cartoon set when it was added on by a radical Danish imam, then American newspapers refuse to even discuss the cartoons "out of respect for Islam". Instapundit notes that the New York Press staff walked out after management refused to print the Danish caricatures of Mohammed.

Editor-in-Chief Harry Siegel emails, on behalf of the editorial staff:

New York Press, like so many other publications, has suborned its own professed principles. For all the talk of freedom of speech, only the New York Sun locally and two other papers nationally have mustered the minimal courage needed to print simple and not especially offensive editorial cartoons that have been used as a pretext for great and greatly menacing violence directed against journalists, cartoonists, humanitarian aid workers, diplomats and others who represent the basic values and obligations of Western civilization. Having been ordered at the 11th hour to pull the now-infamous Danish cartoons from an issue dedicated to them, the editorial group -- consisting of myself, managing editor Tim Marchman, arts editor Jonathan Leaf and one-man city hall bureau Azi Paybarah, chose instead to resign our positions.

And now it turns out that these cartoons have been circulated in the Muslim world, in Egyptian newspapers to be precise, as far back as October 2005. Amir Taheri says the Multiculti "intellectuals" have been humbugged. Taken. Sold some phony interpretation of Islam the way you would take a rube to the Olive Garden for Italian food, Taco Bell for Mexican, or serve up chop-suey and General Tso chicken as authentic Chinese cuisine. According to Taheri the whole "you can't portray Mohammed" injunction was largely drummed up by snake-oil salesmen who found a ready market of people ready to fall all over themselves in the West.

But how representative of Islam are all those demonstrators? The "rage machine" was set in motion when the Muslim Brotherhood--a political, not a religious, organization--called on sympathizers in the Middle East and Europe to take the field. A fatwa was issued by Yussuf al-Qaradawi, a Brotherhood sheikh with his own program on al-Jazeera. Not to be left behind, the Brotherhood's rivals, Hizb al-Tahrir al-Islami (Islamic Liberation Party) and the Movement of the Exiles (Ghuraba), joined the fray. Believing that there might be something in it for themselves, the Syrian Baathist leaders abandoned their party's 60-year-old secular pretensions and organized attacks on the Danish and Norwegian embassies in Damascus and Beirut. ...

There is no Quranic injunction against images, whether of Muhammad or anyone else. When it spread into the Levant, Islam came into contact with a version of Christianity that was militantly iconoclastic. As a result some Muslim theologians, at a time when Islam still had an organic theology, issued "fatwas" against any depiction of the Godhead. That position was further buttressed by the fact that Islam acknowledges the Jewish Ten Commandments--which include a ban on depicting God--as part of its heritage. The issue has never been decided one way or another, and the claim that a ban on images is "an absolute principle of Islam" is purely political. Islam has only one absolute principle: the Oneness of God. Trying to invent other absolutes is, from the point of view of Islamic theology, nothing but sherk, i.e., the bestowal on the Many of the attributes of the One.

The claim that the ban on depicting Muhammad and other prophets is an absolute principle of Islam is also refuted by history. Many portraits of Muhammad have been drawn by Muslim artists, often commissioned by Muslim rulers. There is no space here to provide an exhaustive list, but these are some of the most famous ...

The truth is that Islam has always had a sense of humor and has never called for chopping heads as the answer to satirists. Muhammad himself pardoned a famous Meccan poet who had lampooned him for more than a decade.


Blogger Bat One said...

If there actually was an injunction in the Koran against images of the Prophet, one that had been seriously attended to over all these years, how would anyone know what he looked like, and whether one of the current crop of cartoons was actually such an image?

No wonder network TV viewership (and ad revenues) are dropping right along with the NYT stock price.

2/08/2006 02:44:00 PM  
Blogger Tom Grey said...

THANKS for noting that the 12, or at least the "most offensive" of them, was published in Egypt in October 2005.

I'm adding this to my blog!

MSM -- toadies for terrorists.

I hope Christians boycott NBC and Will & Grace -- and target big advertisers of NBC, too.

2/08/2006 02:44:00 PM  
Blogger wretchard said...

I'm not sure "toadies" is the word for the media outlets who jumped on without looking too closely. Just people who've been sold a Pakistani Rolex and worn it to a jeweler's ball. It's embarassing more than anything else.

2/08/2006 02:47:00 PM  
Blogger whit said...

It is beginning to look like this is a case of Jury Tampering. According to David Conway of Civitas, The Danes are set to take over the leadership of the Security Council and this whole brouhaha is an attempt by the Iranians to intimidate the Danes or the wobbly Euros.

2/08/2006 02:49:00 PM  
Blogger the African sky said...

Regardless of when the cartoons were first published, or which Islamic group is stirring up what, I am deeply disappointed in the response of American newspapers to this issue.

2/08/2006 02:50:00 PM  
Blogger Kat said...

On that last note of the prophet pardoning a poet, he also did his own version of Henry II: will no one rid me of this woman? and had a poetess killed in her bed. The assassin only being so kind as to move her sleeping child from her arms before driving the sword home and cutting off her head.

Thus, it is the continued confusion, abrogation, the schizophrenia of Islam which is actually a good thing because it shows that, like Christianity, Islam is not monolithic.

The point of this whole thing was to get the fire burning in the ME, not necessarily to declare war on the west. We are just a rally point. Islamists can do nothing without the greater Ummah to support them and it hasn't yet moved to be the great supporter they are hoping for.

For me, the messages of "kill the unbelievers that insult Islam" on the posters was a message to liberal or fence sitting Muslims, not necessarily to us.

2/08/2006 02:52:00 PM  
Blogger Richard said...

Now... this should be a "siren" story at DrudgeReport.

How to get it to him?

2/08/2006 03:13:00 PM  
Blogger opotho said...

I heard an interview today between Amy Robach at MSNBC and Keith Richburg of WaPo about the Danish cartoons.

There was no mention that the Imams of Denmark had delivered far worse to their audiences beyond Europe than the banal cartoons which were actually published, yet Richburg was allowed to refer generically to "the cartoons" - which he characterized as "offensive" - while he was specifically describing the mission south taken by the Danish Imams.

It occurred to me that it was in neither WaPo's nor MSNBC's interest to let viewers doubt that by not reproducing the "offensive" cartoons each was doing the right thing.

I wouldn't insist that everyone MUST re-present the original cartoons, but isn't a full disclosure required when both interviewer and interviewed have the same self-censorship to conceal?

2/08/2006 03:15:00 PM  
Blogger enscout said...

Well done as usual.

Most in the west had no desire to view the Danish cartoons until, after the Islamic uproar, we wanted to see what all the excitement was about.

You've captured the essence well. I thought all along that the iconaclasm issue of first century Christianity had become confused and corrupted by Islamic "leaders" as is so often the case.

After viewing the pictures for ourselves it was evident that the whole affair was just, as you discribe, a ruse.

The divide between the rational minds in the west and Islam has been increased as is alos the case between the rational right and the irrational left.

2/08/2006 03:26:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

In response to the Danish cartoon riots, the Boston Globe editorialized that “As with the current consensus against publishing racist or violence-inciting material, newspapers ought to refrain from publishing offensive caricatures of Mohammed in the name of the ultimate Enlightenment value: tolerance.”

The popular blogging law professor Eugene Volokh promptly went back through various prominent blasphemies against Christianity over the last few years and discovered—what a surprise!—that the Globe had somehow never managed to summon the least condemnation of the blasphemers in the name of that ultimate Enlightenment value, tolerance.

That’s not to say the Globe—which is really just a stand-in for an entire American mind-set—didn’t feel the need for tolerance back when Andres Serrano was pissing on Christ and the Brooklyn Museum was touting the Virgin Mary done in feces. But it always ran in the other direction: Those offended must learn they live in an enlightened world where they are required to swallow their hurt in the name of tolerating those with whom they disagree.

First Things

Are Mohammedans Non Normies?

2/08/2006 03:28:00 PM  
Blogger PeterBoston said...

Taheri may be a good guy. He may even be correct on his canonical Islam scholarship, but who cares? A crocodile is ravaging the village children and there is no comfort or safety in the scholar's assurance of its gentle nature.

There is too much Islamic barbarism in too many places to take Taheri and the other apologists seriously. Perhaps they play a different game. God knows that Western politicians and media will swallow whole any hopeful message from an "Islamic author." The jihadis know it too and take full advantage of this shortsightedness.

I'm not buying any of it. The facts on the ground deliver a far different message.

2/08/2006 03:29:00 PM  
Blogger wretchard said...


The refusal to cover the cartoons and to show them made is possible for the Danish imams to substitute their own offensive images. Where a man's face is unknown he may be impersonated. Here was this invisible object which you could only learn about at second-hand. Those who were inclined to imagined the worst, when the real cartoons were pretty inoffensive. What's worse is that some journalists apparently didn't even look at the cartoons themselves and repeated hearsay.

2/08/2006 03:31:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Blankley is trying to part the fog in Hewitt's Brain:
His point is, I think, that our past "nuanced" approach was a failure, because the West remained asleep as the Muhammedans become ever more energized.
Both Transcript and Audio are already up at!

Great links there, also

2/08/2006 03:33:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Peter Boston 3:29 PM
That is to a large degree Blankley's argument.
Here's how I put it:
The Eggheads are Gonna Get Us Killed!

2/08/2006 03:36:00 PM  
Blogger opotho said...

Wretchard, I think that's just the case.

And when a non-cartoon-showing MSNBC interviews someone from WaPo - or whatever MSM combo you like - their additionally incomplete reports back-handedly continue the same kind of damage which the BBC unwittingly inflicted in Gaza.

2/08/2006 03:39:00 PM  
Blogger whit said...

I agree with PeterBoston. The Koran and the Hadiths have so many contradictions that one could interpret them to suit a particular situation or argument. Also, considering that the Wahhabist Saudis have been financing the construction of Mosques and providing the teaching materials throughout the world, I tend to think, most Muslims hold the fundamentalist viewpoint that images are forbidden.

Last Thursday, I posted an observation that the Arab street had not produced the hoped for indignation intifada. Then over the weekend, I began to wonder if I was wrong. Today, I think that we have seen the worse.

Please don't call me a waffler.

2/08/2006 03:39:00 PM  
Blogger opotho said...

... Except that the MSM inflicts the damage here this time, as we begin to feel our own creeping surrender.

2/08/2006 03:42:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Well put: "Creeping Surrender"
...crawling under the
Dung of the Strong Camel.

2/08/2006 03:44:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Richard said...
Now... this should be a "siren" story at DrudgeReport.
How to get it to him?
Drudge Mostly Reflects the MSM
(Except when it's HIS Scoop)
This doesn't

2/08/2006 03:50:00 PM  
Blogger opotho said...

Doug: "The Eggheads are Gonna Get Us Killed!"

Blake: "The tygers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction."

2/08/2006 03:53:00 PM  
Blogger Tony said...

How about the fact that the NYT doesn't run the cartoons so they don't offend anyone? Of course, they ran Abu Ghraib on their front page as news for FIVE STRAIGHT WEEKS! What's more offensive - a few cartoons, or pictures, details and anguished questions of half-nekkid American babes dragging Muslim men around the floor on their hands and knees on a dogleash?

Same thing with CNN, et. al. - remember how the guy in the hood with the wires hooked up to him almost became CNN's logo for a few months there? Gitmo "abuse" 24/7, but a few cartoons, horrors!

Now, if they had found a way to tie Bush, Cheney and Halliburton into the cartoons, we would have been treated to full-page blow-ups of each cartoon along with a lengthy discourse of every aspect of its offensiveness.

2/08/2006 04:00:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Steyn OT, and yet it's not:
" Whatever their merits, these jokes aren’t “homophobic”.
They’re not “afraid” of gayness, they just think it’s a hoot.
If I were Camille Paglia, I’d argue that the very lameness of the gags is in a sense subverting their intent, transforming them into an ironic comment on the lumpen insecurity of hetero-defensive male culture.

But, as I’m not, I’ll just say that, a few years ago, the idea that the left could make homosexuality as plonkingly earnest and solemn as feminism would have seemed incredible.
If Cole Porter came back today, he’d be straight.

For the culture to exempt certain groups from being the butt of the joke is one of the cruelest things you can do to anyone.
If I were gay, I’d get Sgt Turner’s lawyer and sue over it.

2/08/2006 04:03:00 PM  
Blogger wretchard said...


"The Eggheads are gonna get us killed!"

I used to be a big fan of monster movies where people are stranded on an isolated base or dinosaur infested island and the team peacenik disables the entire team's weapons and says "you're always thinking with your muscles" or "can't you find a civilized way to do things". Then the monsters eat them one by one, the pacifist most horribly of all ...

Never thought it would happen in real life.

2/08/2006 04:07:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"Just people who've been sold a Pakistani Rolex and worn it to a jeweler's ball.
It's embarassing more than anything else.
It goes beyond Embarassing,
when with one more tick,
It Explodes.

2/08/2006 04:09:00 PM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

Taheri's article concludes with the following sentiment, which Wretchard neglected to include:

Just as Muslims should not blame all Westerners for the poor taste of a cartoonist who wanted to be offensive, those horrified by the spectacle of rent-a-mob sackings of embassies in the name of Islam should not blame all Muslims for what is an outburst of fascist energy.

So, really -- according Taheri, not all Muslims are terrorists, and Islam *is* a Religon of Peace just like Mr. Bush told us. And just because every Muslim media source in the Middle East and around the world are drumming their drums of provocation it's all the fault of just a very few rent-a-mob fascists. (Just like 9/11 was the result of just a few rent-a-Taliban fascists and had absolutely nothing to do with Wahhabi brainwashing back in good old Saudi Arabia.)

So that we should disregard the rioter who tells us he will kill us to PROVE that Islam is a tolerant religion, as well as the banners that read "A Muslim's Faith is Above Western Values" and "Our Religion Does Not Allow Unconditional Freedom of Speech".

Personally, I think Mr. Taheri may be fibbing just a little bit, and that the Cartoon Wars have pretty much definitively proven that "All Muslims Are Terrorists".

And now whatta we gonna do about it?

2/08/2006 04:10:00 PM  
Blogger opotho said...

Ethel and Julius simply handed the weapons over to the monsters.

2/08/2006 04:11:00 PM  
Blogger Robert said...

Since no one knows what Mohammed looks like, couldn't the radical Islamists point at any image of a man with a beard and say, "That's Mohammed! We're going to burn you down!" So then they become the arbiters of all art. Before any picture is hung, any sculpture exhibited, it has to be run by the fundies. Hey - maybe that's the plan!

2/08/2006 04:13:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"And now whatta we gonna do about it? "
Rewrite all Rules of Logic,
Declare Common Sense a Hate Crime,
...and Slumber On.

2/08/2006 04:18:00 PM  
Blogger Aristides said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

2/08/2006 04:22:00 PM  
Blogger PeterBoston said...

For anybody who cared to watch, this "show" has been playing off-broadway for 40 years in the Palestinian Theatre. The actors may have different names but they read from the same obscene script. The pride of authorship is the Muslim Brotherhood's and the caste is well paid and well received by the home town crowd.

If Islamist countries and organiztions want a place at the adult's table they are going to have to prove themselves worthy. Until that day comes the Israeli strategy is the best option: kill the worst, fence out the rest, and preempt every attempt at lethality growth. Perhaps in time Islam can be shaped to function in the current century but that day is not today.

I've been struggling with this position for four years but the facts seem inescapable. Islam is the ideological and identity glue that binds the disparate nationalities and classes together into a death cult. I simply don't care whether the enemy is called radical Islam, moderate Islam or Islam. Other than what's promoted in an occasional op-ed piece there doesn't appear to be any meaningful difference between them.

2/08/2006 04:23:00 PM  
Blogger exhelodrvr said...

It seems that a pretty good chunk of the Muslim populace was also taken in by this scam, not just our own media. Hard to say which is more troubling. Both have potential for causing immense trouble for the West.

2/08/2006 04:24:00 PM  
Blogger opotho said...

From another phase of my favorite monster movie, memories of the British labor government giving the Soviets those Rolls Royce "Nene" engines in 1946.

Stalin's response: "Who would be so stupid as to give us their best engines?"

Never thought it would happen in real life?

2/08/2006 04:24:00 PM  
Blogger Aristides said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

2/08/2006 04:29:00 PM  
Blogger opotho said...

"Only Nixon could go to China"

- ancient Vulcan saying

2/08/2006 04:33:00 PM  
Blogger Porkov said...

What are they doing "over there" vs. blobbing out in front of the teevee? Playing chess? I say let's FREE BOBBY FISCHER!

2/08/2006 04:33:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

""Only Nixon could go to China""
But Talk of Impeachment
Drove Him to Drink.

2/08/2006 04:36:00 PM  
Blogger Anointiata Delenda Est said...

Images of the profit were never the point.

The cartoons were requested by Jylands-Posten (spelling?) because they had direct evidence that a climate of fear had descended on Europe following the murder of Van Gogh.

The point of the cartoons was to test the mettle of the "artistes". Did they feel free to draw? Did the press feel free to publish?

Well we now know who does and who doesn't.

The reason some papers chose not to publish is fear. The reason Rent-A-Mob turns out on the Muslim street is fear. The reason for the silence of 'large majority of peace-loving muslims' is fear.

In the end, the muslim thugs know where you live, and are honour-bound and empowered by allah to kill you, your family, and any innocent bystanders.

The riots are a means to remind European muslims that they need to hold firm for the coming war.


2/08/2006 04:38:00 PM  
Blogger whit said...

Looking on the bright side.

How will the MSM treat future slurs against Christianity. Will they show the same sensitivity?

How will the Europeans justify hate-speech laws with the Muslims now claiming that the laws are not enforced evenhandedly? The Iranians are going to "test" free speech with anti-holocaust cartons. While I personally think holocaust deniers are obviously idiots, I have a problem with laws making the act illegal.

2/08/2006 04:39:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"Images of the Profit"

2/08/2006 04:42:00 PM  
Blogger Tony said...

It's not just the Islamofascist Pavlovian cavemen who seem childish to us, it's our our lefty fellow Westerners.

As before, snug and smug under Daddy's invulnerable care, they scream and spit at Daddy.

But if the big bad man looks at them personally, ohhh, they don't scream and spit at him. They try to not offend the scary man, they try to be good for the mean people, lest the bad guys attack them instead of their Big Bad Dumb Dad who caused all the trouble in the first place.

Obviously, they don't have any firm values or goals, so how could they get blamed if some bad guys get mad at particular values or goals? Values, what values, children are free of such guilty treasures.

2/08/2006 04:43:00 PM  
Blogger opotho said...

whit, Jyllands-Posten has announced that they're running a special of all of their already-published cartoons from the past that are satirical of religion - Christian and otherwise.

Having been driven to drink over this, it will be interesting to see if they include cartoons critical of Islam again in the 'otherwise' category.

2/08/2006 04:44:00 PM  
Blogger opotho said...

Anointiata Delenda Est - that's absolutely right.

So far I've only seen blogs explain that the cartoons were requested because illustrators were too intimidated to furnish pictures for a children's book.

That's the most important part of the story!

2/08/2006 05:01:00 PM  
Blogger Porkov said...

In real art, cartoons exist only to be painted over.

2/08/2006 05:12:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"The West's Last Chance"
The Nazis failed to take over Europe, but Militant Islam might
The West, says author Tony Blankley in this shocking new book, is down to its last chance.
Within our lifetimes, Europe could become Eurabia:
a continent overwhelmed by militant Islam that poses a greater threat to the United States than even Nazi Germany did.
In The West’s Last Chance, Blankley shows how that could happen—and what we must do to prevent it.
In The West’s Last Chance, you’ll learn:
· What really happens if Islamist terrorists acquire weapons of mass destruction—it’s worse, and more likely, than you think
· How Europe is already well on its way to being a launching pad for Islamist terrorism
· Why Europe’s plummeting birthrates could wreak huge upheavals on the Continent—and how the United States could face a similar fate
· What’s holding our government back from fighting the Islamist threat to the best of its ability
· Why the U.S. has ignored the lessons of World War II—lessons that could hold the secret to winning the War on Terror
· How liberalism degenerated from the war-winning policies of FDR to an ideology of Western suicide
Tony Blankley asks the hard questions—and gives the straight answers—that our country needs to hear.
Frightening, provocative, and instructive, The West’s Last Chance is the most important political book of the year.
It will change the way we think about—and fight—the War on Terror.
Capitol Reader

2/08/2006 05:17:00 PM  
Blogger opotho said...

porkov, what sort of painting do you recommend?

The art world - both the market and its academic cheerleaders - is one of the most tightly handled and constrained of our public institutions. Consumers have little say over what they don't ever get to view in the first place.

That's why I don't expect to see any great tributes to, say, the patriots of Flight 93. That sort of content is controlled by the kind of intelligensia that are never scrutinized in forums like this one (or anywhere else that I can find),

2/08/2006 05:22:00 PM  
Blogger Arthur Dent said...

Nahncee said
And now whatta we gonna do about it?

We will fight until the cartoon menace is no more.
(As the horrendous Black Beast lunged forward, escape for Arthur and his knights seemed hopeless, when suddenly, the animator suffered a fatal heart attack.

ANIMATOR: (We see Terry Gilliam sitting at his desk, falls backwards in death) Ulk!

NARRATOR: The cartoon peril was no more. (the monster disappears) The quest ).....

2/08/2006 05:24:00 PM  
Blogger Tony said...


As scary as Eurabia threatens to become, remember who is standing off to their right there, off in the East. The Bear, with his back to the wall, arguably the world's greatest rocket program, plenty of nukes, and a history of winning Long Wars.

Why do you think the Bushitler monkey tried to make friends with Pooty-poot?

2/08/2006 05:41:00 PM  
Blogger PeterBoston said...

How will the MSM treat future slurs against Christianity. Will they show the same sensitivity

The NYT published the image of the Madonna covered in dung TODAY on page E-8 while claiming cultural sensitivity as its reason for not publishing the Cartoons in the same edition.

Can you hate something as inanimate as a newspaper?

2/08/2006 05:42:00 PM  
Blogger rufus said...

Okay, so the real question is, "Does this dust-up make it harder, or easier, to get to Iran's Nuke Program. The rest is just noise.

I think it does, Maybe.

2/08/2006 05:43:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

A Day in the Life...
Military role in space said set to expand...

Islamic Groups Call for End to Riots... BUSH: Freedom comes with 'responsibility to be thoughtful about others'...

French Magazine Prints New Muhammad Cartoon on Cover, Plea for Free Press...


UPDATE: Danish paper won't run Holocaust cartoons...

Hillary Clinton: Republicans 'Playing the Fear Card'...

First Grader Suspended for Sexual Harassment...

CRAIGSLIST accused of publishing discriminatory ads...

2/08/2006 05:44:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"The rest is just noise."
I disagree.

2/08/2006 05:47:00 PM  
Blogger Will Rayford said...

I guess Mark Twain was correct when he said that humor was "our last line of defense." Well, since that last line has been breached we might as well go on the offensive.

2/08/2006 05:47:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Ha Ha Ha

2/08/2006 05:47:00 PM  
Blogger Tony said...


Agreed. It does, because it casts our enemies in such a savage light.

If they do this over cartoons, what are they gonna do with nukes?

Then again, how many people are even paying attention with NYT and CNN burying it, as if our exposure of our enemies intentions might support Bush.

2/08/2006 05:49:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Tony 5:41 PM
You did get to read that great RWE Post on Bush 41 and the Bear, right?
...then came
The Bullshitter in the China Shop
(I gotta stop)

2/08/2006 05:50:00 PM  
Blogger opotho said...

Thanks Doug, I was just looking for that same Hillary link:

"Clinton on Wednesday accused Republicans of "playing the fear card" of terrorism to win elections ..."

It was exactly three years ago that Kerry et al were saying outrageous things on the stump which were never revisited on them since it's so impossible to reconjure context later on.

Hillary saying this today will be worth revisiting someday ... if the same recreation challenge wasn't so impossible.

2/08/2006 05:57:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"It Was Twenty Years Ago Today..."

2/08/2006 05:58:00 PM  
Blogger opotho said...

Lowery to congregation:

"You're such a lovely audience we'd like to take you home with us we'd love to take you home..."

2/08/2006 06:07:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Unfortunately, the Dike was Blown Up.

2/08/2006 06:08:00 PM  
Blogger Will Rayford said...

Look, months ago we played a nasty practical joke on them by giving them Michael Jackson. You would have thought that might stir them up a bit. But they didn't seem to understand our sense of humor in that one. Next time, lets see what they do with a belly-dancing sister Janice complete with Burqa malfunction. Now that will give them something to cry about. Of course we will spare their children this frightening vision. Just a thought.

2/08/2006 06:12:00 PM  
Blogger Das said...

The problem with Hewitt et al is this: WE DON'T KNOW how our local Muslims will react because we have made sure that no (potentially offending) material will ever get between them and us. When a local Seattle artist carved the likeness of the Bamiyan Buddhas into the pages of the Koran, the local Muslims never saw it because the city's pants-peeing art elites pulled it from the gallery.

Ditto our newspaper editors have pre-determined that "our Muslims" are crazed. I find it sad that our elites don't give our Muslim immigrants any benefit of the doubt for having picked up a tiny bit of the "live-and-let-live" American spirit.

Meantime, we remain unacquainted.

2/08/2006 06:17:00 PM  
Blogger opotho said...

I didn't know about that Seattle artist. I'll do the necessary research and add it to my 30-page dossier. Thanks.

2/08/2006 06:19:00 PM  
Blogger Porkov said...

Opotho 5:22 -
Many of your public and parocial schools have excellent art programs and are attempting to educate socially responsible children. Some of them get it. Dig deeper than commerce for real art. Get out and go look around. (The first Wikipedia entry for cartoon is the historical meaning to which I was referring.)
Anyone who has Googled the Danish cartoon issue has also seen classical renditions of Mohammed. Why aren't newspapers putting THEM on the front page? Great ironic way to make a point without being deliberately offensive.

2/08/2006 06:22:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

" I find it sad that our elites don't give our Muslim immigrants any benefit of the doubt for having picked up a tiny bit of the "live-and-let-live" American spirit."
But easy to understand when you know they believe "Their Blacks" can't sing,
"Gotta Along w/o You Before I Met You,
Gonna Get Along w/o You Now"

2/08/2006 06:24:00 PM  
Blogger Tony said...


I did not see RWE's post on the Bear, and try as I might, I'm not finding it. Where is it? You know RWE is one of my favorite posters.

I still wish we were talking about the QDR. yeh.

2/08/2006 06:25:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"I still wish we were talking about the QDR. yeh."
My Plan was to link to it when you got back, but certainly not right now!
Hope someone can point to RWE comment.
(Yes, Google Used to Search Comments!)
Anyway, maybe he'll retell the story about him sitting in on meetings back in the days when
Real Bears were landing here and vice versa for our guys, and 41's plan was for us and Russia to defend the rest of the world as a team.
...then came Bubba, and the rest is the sorry His story.

2/08/2006 06:29:00 PM  
Blogger sirius_sir said...

I don't know who this will offend more--Christians, or those Muslims who detect an uncanny resemblance to their prophet.

2/08/2006 06:30:00 PM  
Blogger Das said...

There is an article about the Seattle artist here (sorry I don't know how to do the link):

2/08/2006 06:37:00 PM  
Blogger Porkov said...

I prefer my bacon fried
Rather, sir, than crucified.

The next time you shop, watch for pigmata.

2/08/2006 06:38:00 PM  
Blogger opotho said...

Porkov, I'll try and take a lesson from your optimism, but I'm smack dab in the middle of the New York art scene and I can assure you that there isn't a whiff of heart that can believed in the present world. I've heard it said that 'cynicism requires a disbelief in the possibility of sincerity.' If 9/11 wasn't enough truth for them, then I think that Andy Warhol's Big Joke will continue to dominate for many more years to come. The art world is a sham and a shambles.

You want classical renditions of Mohammed from the MSM? But no one knows a thing about the history of Islam, not even most of the Moslems I meet. Tell people that Islam sees itself as the perfection of Judaism and then watch their blank stares.

2/08/2006 06:38:00 PM  
Blogger opotho said...

Thanks das. I will memorize it!

2/08/2006 06:39:00 PM  
Blogger Orbit Rain said... have some terrorism that al-jazeera helps sponsor...niice...all while we also have a press with no patriotism, no principle and no honesty...

2/08/2006 06:39:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Sirius Sir,
That Could be done as fun for the Profit,
But Life's No Fun
When the Head's Gone Off It.

2/08/2006 06:42:00 PM  
Blogger sirius_sir said...


Spare me the ribs.

And any offended Muslims out there? Spare me the chops.

2/08/2006 06:48:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

I'll repost this here, seems appropriate, somehow:
Newsweek banned over article on the Koran

It was not banned here, but Newsweak "Lost It."
"Here's" the "Article"

HTML Link to pdf file: Challenging the Koran


Search for:
challenging the koran
No matches were found

Topics Sections Authors Publication Date Don't remember
Past 7 days
Past month
Within 1 year

2/08/2006 06:52:00 PM  
Blogger sirius_sir said...

More evidence that some people are just nuts.

2/08/2006 06:53:00 PM  
Blogger sirius_sir said...


You won't squeal on me, will you?

2/08/2006 06:57:00 PM  
Blogger Das said...

An attempt to boil down my contempt for American presslords:

Implicit in the presslords' refusal to print the cartoons is the assumption that American Muslims are poised to go crazy on them.

That was the boiled down part - here is the unboiled part:

But don't we owe our fellow citizens (Muslim or no) an opportunity to put themselves forward as regular ol' fellow citizens? Doesn't the press owe it to Muslims citizens to show that it can report a major sensitive story with tact and skill? That is without intent to offend or provoke?

2/08/2006 07:00:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Are you Sirius?
Don't Tread On Me!

2/08/2006 07:03:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Pork and the Profit's Mess

2/08/2006 07:09:00 PM  
Blogger 4virginia said...

Does this remind you of the furor following the adoption of the pattern 53 Lee-Enfield rifeled musket in 1857 the led to the Sepoy War(or Mutiny)? The excuse was the notion there was pig and beef fat used to seal the cartriges.Flashman covers it and would have a field day with this mess,

2/08/2006 07:09:00 PM  
Blogger sirius_sir said...

Doesn't the press owe it to Muslims citizens to show that it can report a major sensitive story with tact and skill? That is without intent to offend or provoke?

You mean treat its citizens (all of them) like grown-ups? Now that's a novel idea.

Related thought: If I were the type to be easily offended, would I be justified in thinking that some Muslims have a very low regard for our (non-Muslims) ability to offend or provoke? What I mean is, Do they honestly think those cartoons are the best we can do? If they want offense and provocation, I'm sure--I'm really sure--we can do a whole lot better than what they've seen so far.

2/08/2006 07:11:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Yeah, but, they know we don't even defend when they provoke.

2/08/2006 07:15:00 PM  
Blogger Porkov said...

We can all do a whole lot better than we've done so far. What do we want to be better at being - isn't that the main point of why we're here?

2/08/2006 07:21:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Replacements for the MSM

2/08/2006 07:23:00 PM  
Blogger Porkov said...

I was hoping for something a bit more metaphysical.

2/08/2006 07:26:00 PM  
Blogger opotho said...

What did Rilke say? Something like, the most difficult path usually recommends itself as being the best path. It sounded better when he said it.

2/08/2006 07:30:00 PM  
Blogger Porkov said...

What did Thumper the rabbit say - "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all." Sometimes not saying anything at all is the most difficult path.

2/08/2006 07:36:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"I was hoping for something a bit more metaphysical"
That's what they're hoping for.
Hewitt Delivers.

2/08/2006 07:39:00 PM  
Blogger sirius_sir said...

porkov, I spend most of my time biting my own tongue.

2/08/2006 07:43:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Buy Worry Beads and Speak Up!

2/08/2006 07:44:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

Seems pretty clear the Islamist grand strategy is to provoke a true crusade, according to their imagination of it. They want us is slowly, though, I would guess, given how small this response has been, and since it was pretty clearly organized at least to a certain extent. So, it also strikes me that that means we should go in, en masse, now. Certainly sooner than later. Let Iran be another example. Much more shock & awe this time though - time to take the audience seriously. The Middle East contains a strange and motley audience mostly obscured from view for centuries except upon rare moments, like the British post-WWI operations (very similar to ours). But everyone likes a god show. Time to awe the savages and gratify the hopeful, and call this whole Iranians love democracy trope out into the open. Of all things, we should be encouraging maximum candor everywhere we can.

2/08/2006 07:44:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

Ha - I meant a "good show," but let the pun stand.

2/08/2006 07:46:00 PM  
Blogger opotho said...

Glad to know I'm not alone. Tongue-biters anonymous?

2/08/2006 07:47:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

God Shows Require More Candlepower

2/08/2006 07:48:00 PM  
Blogger opotho said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

2/08/2006 07:49:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

Well they'll end up p r o v o k i n g the crusade when they decide to play their oil card. They do not understand the world even more than we do - we at least are its partial architects - and that accounts for their perpetual blindness. Either that or they really do want to cast the region into chaos from "Palestine and the Iraq" to the East in order to usher in the age of Apocalypse when the Mahdi will establish rightful worship of Allah over all the earth once Jesus has finished his stewardship. Who knows? Why couldn't they believe that?

Anyway look they've even managed to piss off Europe - and this is all pretty obviously directed at Europe. They can't just keep pissing everyone off and remain so weak and escape at least some revenge. Hey - that's what they say about us. They obviously believe in it.

2/08/2006 07:53:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Speaking of humor:
One of the funniest things I've heard all week was a GI that guarded Saddam describing his Junk Food Addiction.
Once he discovered Doritos, he'd go through a Family Bag at one sitting!
Mass Murderer Meets Mass Marketing
(wife and I discussed that if they'd (both) known, they could have lured him out of his hidey hole with Doritos Air Drops)

2/08/2006 07:57:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

Honestly it is more amazing to me than in any other case that someone and some people could fall so hard for ISLAM, of all things. Granted it's hard to understand an alien but completely-imagined world, but it isn't impossible. We can all read the same books and meet Muslims. And honestly there's fine and mellow Muslims, but what accounts for the pure we-worship-a-black-piece-of-comet fire of it? It's much more like Nazism than Communism - but its moribund, like it's almost always been. But Nazis were f-cking weirdos. So we can't analyze this situation like a puzzle with a complicated solution. It just isn't that. Who knows - maybe the configurations of peoples and geography just cant be resolved in any way more stable than it is. It's not like it ever has been; its almost always just been one giant mass of tribes. But crap is getting out of control; these beliefs in combination of ours will prove intolerable at some point, and it will be a matter of hopeful domination. Unless you think they'll do it spontaneously, but it would be almost impossible to convince me of it.

2/08/2006 08:04:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Where is it written that most difficult consistently yields results?

2/08/2006 08:05:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Nuclear Tribalism.
Too Bad Perot Ran Us Aground

2/08/2006 08:12:00 PM  
Blogger Aristides said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

2/08/2006 08:23:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

In a world where Propaganda is Outlawed,
for us.

2/08/2006 08:23:00 PM  
Blogger Tony said...

So, you guys are hoping for something metaphysical?

The best story I have come across about "Why is there War?" immediately dismisses that question. You can't handle the Truth, so let's get on with the matter at hand.

In the original version of "God is my Co-Pilot" - the big blue Lord Krishna shows up as the Chariot Driver for Prince Arjuna.

Arjuna's all uptight, his and his cousin's vast armies are arrayed against each other, and he's feeling a few butterflies, even with the Big Blue Mr. K riding there right in his chariot. What could be better than having God on your side?

Here, you can find the original book on the shelf below. You'll notice that Xenophon's 10,000 and the Gita memes were popular at the same time.

See, it's an old idea, this "God is on my side" bit. The way you can tell if God really IS on your side, if you're the one with the coolest chariots.

Still doesn't make the same dealy-o any less stressful.

If you read the Gita, you'll see where Kipling got his brass.

I'm sorry, I just can't find one line that's better than another, you'll have to find your own.

From Gilgamesh to Aesop, Archimedes, and Euclid to Sun Tzu, with the new kids Xenophon and Bhagavad Gita around 400 b.c.

2/08/2006 08:33:00 PM  
Blogger opotho said...

FYI: Attorney General Gonzales is being interviewed by Charlie Rose tonight.

2/08/2006 08:34:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

2/08/2006 08:36:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Tony, you left out Patton:

Hitler[AoE]: cool, i start with panzer tanks!
paTTon: lol more like panzy tanks

2/08/2006 08:39:00 PM  
Blogger sam said...

Making and Unmaking History with General Myers:

Retired Air Force General Richard B. Myers -- who was Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff from 2001 to 2005 -- has joined the faculty of Kansas State University as a professor of military history.

General Myers became familiar to TV viewers via his Pentagon press conferences and Congressional hearings, usually playing straight man to the irrepressible defense secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

Myers was the nation's top military officer through the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. During that period, his chief interest in history appeared to be in re-writing it.

For example, in December, 2001, with the Afghanistan campaign apparently going well, Myers told American Forces Press Service, "It is not just bin Laden we're after. [He] has handfuls of lieutenants we really want to go after.

The following winter, during the buildup to the Iraq invasion, Myers responded to concerns over expected civilian casualties by providing this undeniable but less-than-enlightening observation about the nature of war: "People are going to die."

Historians will have the task of sorting through the many and varied rationales that were used to justify the rush to war in Iraq. It will be interesting to see how Professor Myers deals with the question.

Myers, more than most other officials, has repeatedly stressed that the war in Iraq will be long and bloody and difficult. Looking at historical precedents, he has warned that insurgencies typically last from 7 to 12 years.

General Myers

2/08/2006 08:40:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

...Meanwhile, his wet behind the ears Barbie Niece has been made head of Immigration Enforcement.

2/08/2006 08:41:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"to justify the rush to war in Iraq"

2/08/2006 08:43:00 PM  
Blogger Pierre Legrand said...

Wretchard just to make sure I am not misunderstanding you. You are not saying that the Cartoons were first published in Egypt correct? Also it is worth noting that the demonstrations started in Denmark with the original publishing of the pictures back in October. And the publishing of the pictures was indeed done to prove a point that needs to be proved. That Freedom of the Press is paramount in an open free society. Amir Taheri didn't get that in his article. He believed the images were deliberately insulting. To quote him: Just as Muslims should not blame all Westerners for the poor taste of a cartoonist who wanted to be offensive, those horrified by the spectacle of rent-a-mob sackings of embassies in the name of Islam should not blame all Muslims for what is an outburst of fascist energy.

Thats an interesting perspective for a person who once said that Islam and Democracy are incompatible. For what is Democracy without freedom of expression and freedom of the press. And what is the worth of Freedom of the Press if it is not the Freedom to ridicule? Let the market decide if a paper should be punished for publishing junk...not mobs.


2/08/2006 09:08:00 PM  
Blogger Aristides said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

2/08/2006 09:19:00 PM  
Blogger Tony said...


You're right. Patton got butterflies, but he was used to them, he even liked them.

What do you expect, he was only human. He remembered getting them in his former lifetimes.

2/08/2006 09:24:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...


The West believes that human beings are free to insult other people. And if we didn't believe that, we would not have what is called democracy.
Hence, you do not have any Islamic democracy.
There are, I think, sixty or so countries that have Islamic Muslim majorities, according to Freedom House. Only one is a democracy. Excuse me, only one is rated free. That's the way they rate them. It's Mali, as it happens.

I have nothing to say about Islam. I have a lot to say about the state of Muslim civilization today.
Irshad Manji, a lesbian Muslim in Canada, writes nothing mocking about Islam, and travels everywhere on Earth with a personal bodyguard, because of the death threats from Muslims.

You don't need cartoons to be targeted for death.

(radioblogger has transcript and audio)

2/08/2006 09:27:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Patton was a Butterfly in a prior incarnation?
If so, I'm sure he got a lot of them.

2/08/2006 09:28:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

2/08/2006 09:31:00 PM  
Blogger speaker-to-animals said...

Taheri is a Sufi.
The sufi are heavily marginalized in Islam.
Many muslims will not believe him.
In fact, the sufi, mutazhili and falaysef may have drawn facial portraits of Muhammed.
Most do not consider them muslims, but heretics.

But, this is good memetic warfare against the leftist apologists.

2/08/2006 10:46:00 PM  
Blogger sam said...

American suspected of aiding insurgents:

An American citizen who was captured in Iraq and is being held for trial there is a close associate of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi's, was harboring foreign terrorists in Baghdad and was plotting kidnappings, according to documents filed in federal court by the Justice Department.

A 24-year-old Canadian whose father was a friend of Osama bin Laden's was indicted in Boston on Wednesday on charges that he provided ammunition and explosives for attacks on U.S. troops in Afghanistan, federal prosecutors said.

American Aiding

2/08/2006 10:56:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Ophra's Book of the month, followed by a lifetime appointment to the Editorial Board of the NYTimes.

2/08/2006 11:13:00 PM  
Blogger Will said...

THe wonderful Danes

See Independently Speaking article

"Look at the 6th chart in this link from the IMF. Denmark is the most generous nation in terms of aid relative to their size ….. in the world. You won’t see any oil rich muslim countries at the top of this list.

Or go visit Transparency International’s web site and look at their corruption perceptions index. Denmark is perceived as the 4th LEAST corrupt country in the world. Iran is 88th, the Saudi’s 70th.

These Danish are pretty wonderful people on average." .....

2/08/2006 11:56:00 PM  
Blogger For Freedom said...

Adolph H. Mohammed wants to play Let's Make a Prediction...

A-Year 1939: Ein Volk! Ein Reich! Ein Fuhrer!

B-YEAR ????: ?????


2/09/2006 12:00:00 AM  
Blogger Anointiata Delenda Est said...

for freedom,

If we are not careful, it will be:

2015: Generale Charles Le Poseur marched down the Champs Elysées today to the cheers of adoring Parisians.

After he thanked them for freeing Paris, he denied all knowledge of the trainloads of 'Others' who had been 'shipped out' to destinations unknown.

He brushed aside his 101st Airborne bodyguard as he hurried to the next celebration of La Gloire du La France and as les Intellectuelles invented Post Post Modernism, to hide their shame.


2/09/2006 12:32:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Bill Bennet is looking shorter term:
The young Iranian girls (under 18) that are going to be hung for defending themselves against rape.
(first they came for the gays, etc)
But that, of course, is poetic license:
They've been coming for a variety of very strange reasons for a very long time.

2/09/2006 05:01:00 AM  
Blogger PeterBoston said...

We also take this opportunity to remind the world that the insults levelled at Islam and the Muslims have only transpired due to the absence of the Islamic Caliphate today. Indeed the Muslims are fast approaching the day when the corrupt and impotent agents of the West within the Muslims world will be swept aside to make way for the return of the mighty Caliphate. On this day, the world will witness the true meaning of justice and mercy.

Kill the worst. Fence the rest. Preempt any attempt to grow lethality.

2/09/2006 05:10:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

"Religion is What Religion Does"
Bill Bennet
...but of course, it's been "Hijacked"
Har de har:
that's where the poor flyboys got the hijacking idea to start with - it's not their fault!

2/09/2006 05:15:00 AM  
Blogger Anointiata Delenda Est said...

which, of course, Peter, is the Israeli strategy.

I suppose we'll all get there.


2/09/2006 05:16:00 AM  
Blogger Paul Coyle said...

Islamist 1, Froggies 0.

Last night, Wednesday the ninth, on Bill O’Rilley Show on Fox he had, I believe, the editor of the professional journalism magazine, ‘Editor and Publisher.’ I didn’t get his name. They were discussing the reasons that US papers didn’t publish the cartoons since they have no problem publishing anti-Christian images. Bill came at it sociological, saying that the editors were middle class hating elitist. Anyways, in a revealing and clumsy way, the editor guest let out that it was actually physical fear of Muslims in the editorial rooms across the country. I was stunned at the honesty of the admittance.

So, everyone knows there is a specter that haunts this whole dynamic. Fear, power, violence. The press won’t print the cartoons, nor explore, nor inform the citizens. Neither will the political class.

I have to put this in the win column for the Islamist.

2/09/2006 05:22:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Kill the Rapees.
"Hanging the Rapee Women"
(F... the Sabines)

2/09/2006 05:22:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

More proof of the UTTER Bankruptcy of the American "Feminist" Movement.

2/09/2006 05:24:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

"Fear, power, violence."
Wow, that's a New One.
That's Not Fair!

2/09/2006 05:27:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

"Neither will the political class."
The Conservatives will remind us to be Compassionate.
Tolerate Barbarism, it's the Compassionate thing to do.

2/09/2006 05:30:00 AM  
Blogger 2164th said...

Lets not be too tough on the press and not forget It was George Bush, with his post-911 White House Ramadan party, who pronounced Islam, a peaceful religion hijacked by radicals. Let's be clear. If we are to bring reason to the forefront , we better start with Truth. There is no Episcopalian or Lutheran or Calvinist terror problem. Hassidic Jews and Baptists are not murdering innocents on commuter trains to further Bible studies. The Amish are not strapping on body bombs. There is an Islamic problem. A big one. Forget the polite equivalency argument. Islam has to be given incentives and penalties to deal with Islamic terrorism.

2/09/2006 05:35:00 AM  
Blogger PeterBoston said...

That is the Israeli strategy and has been for 50+ years. It's probably the only grand strategy that can be implemented and remain entirely consistent with Judeo-Christian values. The major downside is that it's generational and based upon a belief in the underlying goodness of man - that with enough time even the most pernicious identity groups will come around.

The USA has added in a democratization feature but other than that Israel 1.0 is probably what we're looking at for the next upteenth years.

2/09/2006 05:39:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Yeah, but we insert and withdraw feeding tubes "roughly" at Gitmo.
If that ain't torture, what is?
When will OUR Barbarism Stop?

2/09/2006 05:41:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Iran to hang teenage girl attacked by rapists

2/09/2006 06:07:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

White House Catches Up:
Rice: Iran, Syria stoke Muslim cartoon anger

2/09/2006 06:13:00 AM  
Blogger plainslow said...

Besides, as I saw on an E-mail segmetn of Fox last night, did'nt the Taliban blow up Buddhists relgious symbols?

2/09/2006 06:14:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

At Mecca Meeting, Cartoon Outrage Crystallized
By HASSAN M. FATTAHA meeting of leaders of the world's 57 Muslim nations in December became the turning point for opposition to the cartoons.
Bush Urges Nations to End Violence

2/09/2006 06:20:00 AM  
Blogger sirius_sir said...

Death to those who dishonor the Prophet:

"Denmark is being punished at the instigation of radical imams because twelve cartoonists have depicted Muhammad. However, these imams created their own three Muhammad images. They have even presented a French clown as being Muhammad. Because the twelve JP cartoonists are not Muslims, the Muslim blasphemy laws do not apply to them. But these laws do apply to the imams. Consequently, these imams deserve death. They – and no-one else – depicted the prophet as a pig – the highest imaginable insult in Islam."

2/09/2006 06:23:00 AM  
Blogger opotho said...

I just turned to MSNBC too late to catch what Shibley Telhami was saying. I caught the last words of his opposite though, an NBC analyst who was saying that western diplomats had better start realizing the "core ussues" that were galvanizing Islam. "Issues"? Somehow that is a legitimizing word to my ear.

Next, MSNBC will discuss whether "bloggers are fanning the flames of the cartoon story?" This from a network that refuses to air the cartoons.

2/09/2006 06:30:00 AM  
Blogger opotho said...

MSNBC still hasn't returned to that story but I'm especially interested because it's the same Amy Robach who was dissembling yesterday with Richburg from WaPo.

2164th, are you serious? The history of Christendom is replete with sectarian violence and terror, both internecine and outside the faith.

"If we are to bring reason to the forefront , we better start with Truth."

Well then, George Bush was being responsible and historically accurate when he described Islam as "a peaceful religion hijacked".

That's no "polite equivalency argument"; the hijackers of Islam still get to die.

2/09/2006 06:48:00 AM  
Blogger Ash said...

wretchard wrote at 3:10

"What's worse is that some journalists apparently didn't even look at the cartoons themselves and repeated hearsay."

but you wrote in the main post:

"And now it turns out that these cartoons have been circulated in the Muslim world, in Egyptian newspapers to be precise, as far back as October 2005. "

What is your basis for the claim that it goes back to "Egyptian newspapers to be precise, as far back as October 2005. "?

Your basis appears to be a single source blog scan (easy to create a fake). In other words you are simply repeating hearsay. I have no knowledge that Sandmonkey's scan is a fake but all I've seen so far is this one single source for the story. Is there any other confirmation that that pape actually printed those cartoons? Sandmonkey just happened to have the 5 month old paper lying about? Maybe....

2/09/2006 06:52:00 AM  
Blogger opotho said...

ash, one hopes that Sandmonkey's claim will be checked in time (or do we just assume that it will be?), but I confess wondering about Sandmonkey's scans myself, and how well our system and faith about how blogs verify each other works between these two worlds? Even if one were fluent in Arabic, there's a fair chance that there isn't even an electronic record of that Egyptian newspaper to check. So I do agree that we must proceed carefully.

It turned out that MSNBC dropped the story about "bloggers fanning the flames".

2/09/2006 07:13:00 AM  
Blogger enscout said...

Christianity went through their dark ages in Europe. The religious leaders had cozied up to the political powers of the time & became corrupted.

Eventually Christianity, with the help of a scriptural foundation, a bloody political process and political leaders with a Judeao-Christian worldview, got it right.

Compare this history with Islam & you will find their religion perpetually entwined with world politics, power and the type of domination Christianity manages to purge from itself.

2/09/2006 07:29:00 AM  
Blogger sirius_sir said...

Hezbollah leader speaks to huge protest after Bush urged calm

Meanwhile, Hezbollah supporters chant "death to America, death to Israel"

Sounds about right.

2/09/2006 07:38:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Are you sure it was not the other way around?
That the world of Western politics was finally able to disengage itself from the infighting within Christianity.

2/09/2006 07:45:00 AM  
Blogger opotho said...

desert rat - I think you beat me to my point, and in fewer words.

enscout - your quaint reference to "dark ages in Europe" makes it sound as if sectarian violence within Chistendom belongs to a safely remote past.

Nor do I find the innuendo that religious violence in the West was historically restricted to "religious leaders [cozying] up to the political powers of the time" to be terribly insightful of human nature.

There are many people in Northern Ireland who wouldn't share your belief that "eventually Christianity, with the help of a scriptural foundation, a bloody political process and political leaders with a Judeao-Christian worldview, got it right," nor that the same urge to domination found among the ignorant Muslim masses is a domination that "Christianity manages to purge from itself."

And I do compare their history with Islam, all the time. So many of all of the above are living in the 17th century in their heads. (And before someone gets all lathered up about the NI peace process, who here is aware that a pipe bomb exploded in Dublin yesterday, a bomb which police attributed to the Continuity IRA?)

Granted that Christendom is largely peaceful today, I don't understand the logic behind the assertion that Islam itself is to be considered beyond the pale just because contemporary Islam chooses to live out self-pitying hatreds that most in the West tired of long ago - most, but as I say not all.

2/09/2006 08:01:00 AM  
Blogger opotho said...

Luckily for the MSM it looks like large chunks of the news cycle in the US will be devoted to the Entwistle thing today.

2/09/2006 08:06:00 AM  
Blogger PeterBoston said...

It started to seem that this way of thinking was an insult to us," he said. "It is fine to say, 'This is our freedom, this is our way of thinking.' But we began to believe that their freedom was something that hurts us."

This quote from the NYT article Doug referenced is the money line. "...their freedom was something that hurts us."

The article is worth reading because it sets a context for the mayhem behind the cartoon affair.

I see the salient facts as:

-The creme de la creme of the Muslim world attended that December conference. In other words, this is as mainstream Islam as it gets.

-A unanimous decision was taken to respond even at the highest government level to the cartoons.

-There appears to be a total lack of conceptual understanding that the cartoons were published by a private enterprise and that the Danish government neither owned nor controlled the publisher. This disregard for the concept of a free press persists throughout the period from the time of the December conference to today.

There you have it. An identity group that functions at about the same level of cultural sophistication as an adolescent street gang. They probably shouldn't be allowed to have matches without adult supervision.

2/09/2006 08:26:00 AM  
Blogger enscout said...

opotho & d-r:

Granted those who claim Christian beliefs struggle constantly with the lure of power and domination. It is man's struggle.

But if you look at the essence of Christ's message, it compels us to disengage from the power structure of this world. ("My kingdom is not of this world"). That doesnt mean we Christians are perfect, we are a fallen creature - see Genesis 3. The human condition has not changed.

The koran, OTOH compels its followers to make war - literally - with non-adherants. Not quite the same message.

2/09/2006 08:30:00 AM  
Blogger opotho said...

peterboston - listening to the new "conditions" on Denmark and the EU that the Hizbollah leader Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah announced to a crowd in Beirut today, I thought of the same thing. These people have absolutely no clue about self-governance. It's like 'Lord of the Flies', or something.

CNN's Nic Robertson just gave the best short history of this cartoon business that I've seen.

I say that because, even though he failed to mention the additional propaganda disseminated by the traveling Imams - and so also omitted the error on the part of the BBC in Gaza (nor did he touch on the possibility that the cartoons were printed in Egypt in October), Robertson DID supply the whole reason that the cartoons were printed in the first place - the illustratorless children's book, and the subsequent Jyllands-Posten contest.

Now I'm thinking that maybe it's best that we don't hear much about those additional "porcine" materials that the Imams were spreading, not as long as more and more Westerners see the truly inoffensive nature of the original cartoons.

I've spoken to two progressive liberals in the past two days who've admitted to a change of heart about the current mentality of mainstream Islam since each sought out the actual cartoons on their own.

2/09/2006 08:34:00 AM  
Blogger enscout said...

I should go on to say, as I have stated before; whereas the history of Christianity is pocked with Church sanctioned involvement with the politcal power of a particular time, it is largely the way of peaceful co-existance.

Islam, OTOH is not, was not nor, barring some disengagement of selct koranic verses, will ever be peaceful movement.

2/09/2006 08:37:00 AM  
Blogger For Freedom said...

Adolph H. Mohammed wants to make it all clear - Let's predict the next Fascist Horror by Islamists:

A-Year 1939: Ein Volk! Ein Reich! Ein Fuhrer!



2/09/2006 08:37:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

"Sandmonkey just happened to have the 5 month old paper lying about? Maybe..."
I wonder if libraries have been discovered yet over there?
(Course the Chimp would read that as "Liberties") I guess Bush IS just like them.
Seen one leader, seen them all, same as with religions.
Kum bay yah.

2/09/2006 08:45:00 AM  
Blogger sbw said...

As a newspaper publisher, it is my opinion that the cartoon images do not materially add to the story. One should not take the absence of the images in print to mean an unwillingness to do so.

According to the logic that has been proposed by the outraged, the newspaper should publish pictures in poor taste simply because they were in poor taste. Harking back to Richard Nixon, it turned out we did publish his explitives deleted, but it would have been no less proper just to describe them.

That's not defering to one subset or another. And deference should be used as an excuse.

2/09/2006 08:46:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

CNN is doing a pre-emptive thing there:
Bill Bennet is going to hold them to task tonite, I believe.
Don't understand you thing about keeping the piggy pictures quiet at all.

2/09/2006 08:49:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Simply because your Industry is characterised by a double standard on the pictures it prints for months (abu panties, piss christ, etc) and those it won't print at all.

2/09/2006 08:53:00 AM  
Blogger sirius_sir said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

2/09/2006 08:53:00 AM  
Blogger opotho said...

enscout - to me it's all metaphors, whether it's the Bible or the Koran, a perspective that intellectual Muslims have practiced since the days of Avicenna, the 10th century Iranian philosopher.

If "the essence of Christ's message" is one thing to you, do not assume that you speak for all Christians. Christianity was hardly the way of "peaceful co-existance" for Cromwell when he thanked God at Drogheda for the opportunity to slaughter unarmed "Papists". Your rationalizing of Christianity's proclivity to grabbing after political power is strained to my ears.

Doug - interesting thoughts on CNN. It occurred to me that, since they're not going to report on Mr. Piggy anyway, there's at least a plus side. The two liberals I've talked with didn't know anything about Mr. Piggy, so when they saw the actual cartoons they had no recourse to make their usual excuses on behalf of the ignorant. (They're both artists, so they don't really know anything at all.)

2/09/2006 09:01:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

8:49 your point

2/09/2006 09:03:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Bennet's point is ""Religion is What Religion Does""
regardless of the theological debates, and one would be hard-pressed to draw an equivalence between the religions AS PRACTICED TODAY.

2/09/2006 09:07:00 AM  
Blogger opotho said...

Let's be careful to distinguish between the current practise of any one religion and the *essence* of a religion.

2/09/2006 09:08:00 AM  
Blogger opotho said...

In a story about double-standards CNN has just showed about a dozen really egregious examples of Arabic-press anti-semite cartoons.

2/09/2006 09:10:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

That is prepostuous, sbw.

The lack of offensiveness, in the original Danish cartoons, which "sparked" this Mohammedan outrage is of paramount importance to the reader.

That is the real story. That the entire ME can erupt in rage because of work that would be considered both appropriiate and tame in any US publication.

That there is, according to Ms Rice, an international political component to the "outrage" also makes the cartoons themselves important.

That those tame images ignite a firestorm, on Iranian command, that is the story.

The percieved "insult" is so much Ayatollah, crapola.

2/09/2006 09:10:00 AM  
Blogger Bonnie said...

To demand that we label these cartoons "offensive" is offensive to me.

In order to say they are offensive, we must adopt a religious belief of Islam, that images of Mohamed are blasphemous.

This is the same as me telling all of you that since I don't eat meat on Fridays during Lent, none of you should eat meat either. Your religious beliefs don't matter; only mine, and if you don't take on my beliefs then you are insulting me.

Ridiculous. These cartoons are not offensive. Hugh Hewitt is wrong and so is everyone who calls them offensive who is not a Muslim.

2/09/2006 09:14:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Maybe SBW jests?

2/09/2006 09:14:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

opotho 9:10 AM,
Maybe Bennet will turn the whole damn CNN Empire Around!
Rush should go to work for them.

2/09/2006 09:17:00 AM  
Blogger PeterBoston said...


I disagree that a news story with images as the subject can be told without making the actual images available, either directly or by reference.

It is the images themselves that are the cause of the murder and mayhem. Shouldn't the readers have the opportunity to judge for themselves if the images could possibly justify the reaction?

2/09/2006 09:19:00 AM  
Blogger exhelodrvr said...

I disagree that the cartoons shouldn't be labeled "offensive". Just like I think that a lot of Ted Rall's cartoons are offensive, and that comments Howard Dean makes are offensive. The question is whether something that is "offensive" to Islam should be treated differently than something that is "offensive" to any other group.

2/09/2006 09:28:00 AM  
Blogger opotho said...

May I tweak that notion a little bonnie?

We have a received ethos that customarily sets common sense limits to offensiveness without our having to legislate against say, lapses of tact or sensitivity.

Having said that, the MSM may have other reasons (like fear!) to assure us that they're reliable guardians of good taste.

To swe I'd say that it's my opinion that the cartoons definitely DO add materially to the story. Who, having seen the actual cartoons, really believes that they are "offensive" enough that they ought to be considered outside the mainstream of even the mildest political satire that we in the West take for granted, and even rely on?

I beg you to show them to any non-Muslim who hasn't seen them yet and to watch their bemused response.

2/09/2006 09:28:00 AM  
Blogger sirius_sir said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

2/09/2006 09:34:00 AM  
Blogger Ash said...

Doug said...

"Sandmonkey just happened to have the 5 month old paper lying about? Maybe..."
I wonder if libraries have been discovered yet over there?

You would think that it would be rather easy to verify this claim, yet I've yet to see any verification. Have you?

2/09/2006 09:35:00 AM  
Blogger enscout said...

:Your rationalizing of Christianity's proclivity to grabbing after political power is strained to my ears."

You were offended? Have you never read the New Testament?

2/09/2006 09:37:00 AM  
Blogger opotho said...

Come to think of it bonnie, in order to say that I find the protests of so many Moslems to be offensive - which I do - aren't I insisting that my beliefs are simply superior to theirs? That's how they would see it.

And in my own culture, country and mind our values are superior.

Of course our claim to the harmlessness of those cartoons is made more sensible by the fact that depictions of the prophet are not blasphemous throughout Islam. I'd like to hear more reporting on that.

CNN (which I rarely watch) is really covering the cartoon story well today. I'll have to keep Doug's suspicions in mind.

2/09/2006 09:42:00 AM  
Blogger whit said...

opotho, 9:08

Unless I am reading you wrong, you seem to think the essence of Christianity is the same as that of Islam. A desire to rule and a propensity to violence. That is certainly not the essence of Christianity. The common denominator amongst all religions is man; fallen, corrupted mankind and the Christian Church is not immune from this corruption. But in contrast to the Koran, nothing in Christianity teaches or advocates violence.

2/09/2006 09:44:00 AM  
Blogger sirius_sir said...

sbw, the images published in Denmark (and apparently in Egypt back in Oct. 2005) were relatively innocuous. They certainly pale in comparison to these images which were used as propaganda by imams to incite outrage during a visit to the mideast.

There is a story here, do you see it? More to the point, your readers could see the story for themselves if--if--you would let them.

2/09/2006 09:45:00 AM  
Blogger opotho said...

I'm not offended enscout. I just think that your history lesson is too selective in scope. You leave out the most basic constants in human nature - as acted out by individuals - in favor of grande sweeping patterns of motives.

To paraphrase something above, 'Stupidity is what stupidity does'. (I don't mean you sir, but that that's how I read history.)

2/09/2006 09:47:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

In that well-practiced tradition, SBW has gone black.
As practiced today "Journalism" is a Black Art.

2/09/2006 09:49:00 AM  
Blogger enscout said...


Agreed. We all fall short. Admittadly Christianity gives us goals to which we can aspire but never reach.

I hope you see my point, however, making an overarching comparison of the teachings of Christ vs. the teachings of Mohammed.

Stupid is as stupid does. But we, like arrows and bullets, tend to travel in the direction we are pointed.

2/09/2006 09:55:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

After checking out your website, I see I missjudged you as just another unthinking liberal publisher, sorry.
If I had a small paper like yours, I probably would not print the pictures either.
My main motivation would be fear for my family.

2/09/2006 10:00:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

equating the use of explative deleted on a cuss word, which is well known and somewhat standard, to an unseen image, described as "offensive" is not reporting, it is a misreporting of the cause, for fear of further effect.

Those that do not print the cartoons should admit they quivver in fear of actual retaliation to their honest reportage, showing an image. While mispreporting US actions in regards Koran flushings are honest errors.

2/09/2006 10:01:00 AM  
Blogger opotho said...

whit - "A desire to rule and a propensity to violence" is an unfortunate proclivity of Islam, but it is not its essence.

However, I'll be the first to point out that there are many examples of violent and aggressive behavior in the Koran for the literal mind to seize upon.

At times a desire to rule and a propensity to violence was the proclivity of every religion I can think of, from Shintoism to Calvinism. Was that then their "essence"?

Christianity always taught and advocated violence for those who believed it did, and who read the Book that way. I've offered Cromwell as an example of a violent man who many regarded as incorruptible. Cromwell fully believed that he was doing God's work on earth when he slaughtered women and children in Ireland.

As for "making overarching comparisons of the teachings of Christ vs. the teachings of Mohammed", the Islamic mystic and poet called 'Rumi' had his life changed after reading St. John of the Cross. To him, the essence of Christianity was and is the same as the essence of Islam. I will admit that that there's a difference between the standing of a mere prophet and the standing of the son of God, but IMHO, to drive a wedge through that difference hazards losing something essential in Christ's existence and example.

2/09/2006 10:14:00 AM  
Blogger opotho said...

sbw - on Doug's word I'd second his opinion that smaller news organs have no obligation to reprint the Danish cartoons.

If there's going to be a pecking order in your industry then the big guns have to step up and earn their self-important positions.

Hmm, I can even imagine an op-ed to that effect.

2/09/2006 10:20:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

At the dawn of a new century, a newly elected U.S. president was forced to confront an escalating series of unprovoked attacks on Americans by Muslim terrorists sworn to carry out jihad against all Western powers.
As timely and familiar as these events may seem, they occurred more than two centuries ago.
The president was Thomas Jefferson, and the terrorists were the Barbary pirates.
Victory in Tripoli

2/09/2006 10:21:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

If the West were engaged in some short encounter, with the Mohammedans, a path of moderation could be advised.
Self censor for a while, a year maybe two, for the greater good.

But when Mr Cheney, the Vice President whom some call "Prime Minister", announces that the "War against Mohammedan Fascists that do not respect Elections" will continue for at least a DECADE, maybe TWO.

That is to much to ask, to keep readers in the dark, about the nature of the "Enemy" is obscene.

If sbw needs improved Civil Defense in his community, they should hire better Police.
There is, most likely, Federal Grant money available.

But I am sorry, sbw, the moral high ground has already been taken, in Europe, where they publish despite fear of retribution.

Like Thomas Paine & Ben Franklin,
before there was a First Admendment,
when a man could hang.

2/09/2006 10:21:00 AM  
Blogger Bonnie said...

Opotho, the difference between finding cartoons offensive and finding demonstrations offensive is that one insists on another adopting your religious beliefs. The other is an understanding that free speech ends at the end of another's nose.

Of course, I might add modestly, we are morally superior to the barbaric, ignorant, foul creatures who burn little girls alive, behead helpless civilians, and hang girls for the crime of defending themselves against rape.

This is as easy as a Lord of the Rings movie: Over here, Galadriel in white, singing in the trees. Over there, green-skinned cannibal Orcs. Good, Bad. Easy.

2/09/2006 10:21:00 AM  
Blogger whit said...

Fear and submission mean dhimmi status for Christians and Jews and death or conversion for all others. Muslims claiming otherwise are death deserving apostates and have fallen away from the teachings of the Koran. That is the real Islam.

If you believe in nothing, if you will stand for nothing or if your faith is in the things of this world, you will ignore the existential threats to your worldview. Leftists have invested so heavily in the mult-culti, PC, unity in diversity worldview that the threat posed by fundamentalist Islam simply does not "materially advance the story."

2/09/2006 10:21:00 AM  
Blogger nonomous said...

>sbw said...
>According to ...the outraged,
>the newspaper should publish
>pictures in poor taste simply
>because they were in poor taste.

Rubbish. The 'poor taste' label is false, and only plausible when talking to people who haven't seen the things. The cartoons published in Denmark are entirely conventional. Half of them illustrate a 'frightened artist' theme, where the artist asks 'what is the silliest scribble that will get me killed'?

2/09/2006 10:21:00 AM  
Blogger Moron99 said...

frankly, the west is being duped. completely and inequivocably duped into believing that this is about religion. It is a lie that the source of the radical imams power is the religous faith of his pack.

bullspit. It's about power and frustration and revenge. The radical imam promises to use Islam as a vehicle to restore the glory and power of the arab nation. Faith and God are tools that he uses to deploy his attack dogs on one hand and group the timid ones into protective shelter on the other. Modern day imams are no more pure of heart than the catholic priests who sold forgiveness. Get over it. See it for what it is. POWER.

The radical participants follow the radical imam because he produces results. He waves cartoons and the western media trembles before him. It is power that he promises and it is power that he has been delivering. Fear is power.

2/09/2006 10:24:00 AM  
Blogger enscout said...

doug & opotho:
Your pragmetism doesn't hold water. Is the NYT in any less a threat of being destroyed by terrorists that sbw's small circulation paper?

Their destruction is their choice. They didn't cause the predicament they are in - any more than any of us. But if they sell out their principle now, engage in the pragmatic choice that someone else can pay for being honest and carrying the message, they've begun building their own coffins as news organs.

2/09/2006 10:27:00 AM  
Blogger opotho said...

bonnie, I'm not sure what you meant, but the comparison is an easy one for me too: {i}"we are morally superior to the barbaric, ignorant, foul creatures who burn little girls alive, behead helpless civilians, and hang girls for the crime of defending themselves against rape."[/i]

2/09/2006 10:28:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

< -i- > < /-i- >

2/09/2006 10:29:00 AM  
Blogger opotho said...

How the hell do you do italics with this thing??

2/09/2006 10:29:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Ask and you will have already received.

2/09/2006 10:30:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Remember the old days:
You opted out when it took 30min to post!

2/09/2006 10:31:00 AM  
Blogger opotho said...

[i]"...Muslims claiming otherwise are death deserving apostates and have fallen away from the teachings of the Koran. That is the real Islam."[/i]

I'm sorry but that's just b.s. and hate-mongering.

Are you paying attention to what I'm saying about Cromwell? In his day he was THE defender of the faith for an army of followers. whit, you are sounding like Cromwell to me.

2/09/2006 10:33:00 AM  
Blogger Ozymandias said...

Doug, you mention Iranian girls being hung for defending themselves against rape.

Here's a story about a girl that refused to be a Mullah's "temporary wife", so he fabricated charges against her (as well as lied about her age in order to enable the death penalty)

Sometimes a single mullah serves as judge, jury and executioner. Hadji Rezai is the mullah judge of the small city of Neka. When Atefeh Rajabi, a young and psychologically unstable girl, refused to be his "temporary" wife, Rezai framed her with the blessings of the high court in Tehran. Allegations of sexual misconduct were fabricated against her, so that she could be brought to “justice” according to the scorned Rezai, who personally hung the noose around Atefeh’s neck. Rezai’s last words to the dying young girl: “This will teach you to disobey!”

here's a panel discussion:

I believe the clinical classification for this Mullah to be "sick fuck"

2/09/2006 10:34:00 AM  
Blogger opotho said...

I thank you Doug, and I DO remember all of your and others' assisstance way back when.

In the meantime I acquired OSX.

I'm always a little embarrassed to ask.

2/09/2006 10:36:00 AM  
Blogger whit said...

The New Testament does not and has never taught or advocated the violence that some people (parading as Christians) have employed in the name of Christ. You can cite examples all day long but you cannot alter this fact.

The essence of Christianity is that man was created in the image of God, fell from grace, and being corrupted is incapable of redeeming himself but is redeemed only by the grace of God. Islam on the other hand is a "works" religion where the devotee is required to demonstrate by his devotion and "good works" that he is worthy of Allah's blessings.

This contrast explains why one religion flourishes under pressure and the other flourishes by pressure.

2/09/2006 10:40:00 AM  
Blogger whit said...

...Muslims claiming otherwise are death deserving apostates and have fallen away from the teachings of the Koran. That is the real Islam."

I'm sorry but that's just b.s. and hate-mongering.

Yes, it is. But I'm not the one doing it. That is what the Koran and the hatemongering Imams are saying.

2/09/2006 10:45:00 AM  

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