Wednesday, February 15, 2006

The European Street

Two blogs provide a feel for how the street debate over the cartoon wars are going in Europe. The Brussels Journal has a video link to Moroccan "youths" on the rampage in Antwerp’s historical center, destroying cars and beating up reporters to express their outrage at the slur on their religion.

“We had to watch how they were ripping off car mirrors. We wanted to stop this vandalism but were ordered to withdraw,” an anonymous policeman says in today’s Flemish daily De Standaard. “An ambulance was told to switch off its siren because that might provoke the Moroccans.” Another anonymous officer told the press: “There you are watching this, while citizens can see that you are powerless.” According to an anonymous police chief the authorities decided, that “it was better to have a few cars vandalized than risk open war in the streets.” On Monday the city council, led by the Socialist mayor Patrick Janssens, decided that the city would compensate the damage to cars and property.

One of the victims of the violence was Fatima Bali, a city councillor of Moroccan origin. She was on a tram last Saturday evening around 6 pm, when the vehicle was attacked. “It was very frightening,” she said. “Stones were thrown at the tram. Passengers tried to hide under the seats. Everyone panicked. Windows were shattered, a stone hit a passenger’s head – a Moroccan by the way. I hope I will never have to go through something like that again.”

You can reach the video link by clicking on the still below.

Switching to action in France Samizdata links to a video showing bloggers Erik and Arthur Wneir from No Pasaran declaring their support for Denmark while standing alone in a tide of several thousand Muslim protesters.

 

The arrival of the French police prevented what might have been a fairly lopsided encounter between the bloggers and the demonstrators, but Erik and Arthur expressed their disappointment: "We almost had them surrounded."

143 Comments:

Blogger Carl O. Witz said...

Two years ago I tried to stir up some interest in a poll: "Civil War in 2004: Guess which country will be riven by internal strife in the next 12 months?" I nominated Pakistan, the Saudi entity, the Palistanian territory, Iran, and a couple of others.

I wouldn't have guessed France, England, the Netherlands, etc.

2/15/2006 04:28:00 AM  
Blogger enscout said...

I pity the poor saps living in those socialist states run by ambivilent politicians and security authorities.

Is it possible that we will see a tide of emmigration from those lands again this century as they seek to live under a government that has a healthy respect for and is dedicated to consistently upholding the rule of law.

I wonder where on earth one would now find such a place.

2/15/2006 04:35:00 AM  
Blogger wretchard said...

I think we are still looking at fairly small numbers of people in contact, both on the Islamic and the other side. But the trends are worrying because there are issues around which larger groups may form in the end. If the issues remain live then the numbers may grow.

2/15/2006 04:51:00 AM  
Blogger RaymondW said...

Our grandfathers dealt with ss troopers and vicious little japanese officers. Our fathers dealt with the very tough north koreans and vietnamese.

My generation's enemy is some young muslim guy on the dole, sitting in an apartment somewhere watching music videos and playing with himself while muttering about infidel whores.

Thing is, these clowns seem to be winning in europe.

2/15/2006 05:13:00 AM  
Blogger gokart-mozart said...

I love carl o. witz' use of the term "the Saudi entity".

Every time somebody says "Saudi Arabia", it makes something quite insubstantial seem like a real thing, as in "France" or "Thailand".

2/15/2006 05:21:00 AM  
Blogger RWE said...

I wonder if the National Rifle Association has chapters in Europe? They should start some.

The comment about "having them surrounded" recalls the spirit of a certain USN pilot in WWII, who called over the radio one day "I have about fifty Japs cornered over here, in case anyone wants to come help."

2/15/2006 05:22:00 AM  
Blogger Lagwolf said...

There is an NRA in the UK. (Not that I consider the UK part of Europe.) I suspect you will see more of this sort of crap on the continent.

The visceral reaction to the recent vile demo by Muzzies in the UK really surprised local Muslims.

2/15/2006 05:30:00 AM  
Blogger PeterBoston said...

If the issues remain live then the numbers may grow.

Growing numbers seems to be the trend, and so far there does not appear to be any contervailing force. If there are no consequences for bad acts then why should anybody expect the actors to stop repeating them?

Whether or not it's rational or even explainable there is a pan-Islamic identity that seems to supersede the notion of being French or Danish or European or whatever. I will take people at their word and accept that the recent rash of riots is a reaction to the cartoons. So what's next? There has to be a million other things that Europeans and other Westerners do every day that are equally "offensive" to Islam. Why not pork chop riots?

It's unfortunate that there doesn't appear to many adults running the show who are willing to explain that out-of-bounds behavior is not acceptable. Perhaps one unintended downside of nanny state systems is the belief that government can actually manage the emotions of people who don't give a rat's ass about their social systems.

2/15/2006 05:34:00 AM  
Blogger PhilippinesPhil said...

I loved the Aussie reaction when some of their resident Islamics acted up a few months ago. When they saw that their government wouldn't protect them, they went out and asserted themselves.

It was ugly mob rule, but it seems to have worked. Their real accomplishment was that they spurred their cops to greater action, which is all they really wanted to begin with. As soon as non-Muslim Europeans start showing the same kind of gumption, perhaps their polices will start doing THEIR job, to knock heads and arrest as many of those belligerent punks as can be caught.

The British army troops recently busted on a videocam in southern Iraq had it right when they ran down stone throwing Iraqi youths, coralled a few of them and then stomped "a lesson" up their butts--a superior way to teach that unlawful actions bring on painful consequences.

2/15/2006 06:07:00 AM  
Blogger Asher Abrams said...

Readers might want to visit Sean LaFreniere

http://www.seanlafreniere.blogspot.com/

who's been blogging from Copenhagen.

2/15/2006 06:17:00 AM  
Blogger nonomous said...

I find the 'culture clash' perspective less interesting than the crowd control dynamics. Based on reports we get, these muslim demonstrations rely upon cell and text messaging systems. Chain messaging seems the primary tool for crowd assembly (call/page/IM 5 people, tell them to come and invite 5 of their friends). This technique seems exceptionally good for massing of urban gangs for shake-downs, neutralizing police and torching a few cars for the 6 PM news. Additionally, the initiators of these high tech swarming attacks enjoy the complete package of legal and media expertise. If arrested by police, a swarming agent can expect quick release and protection.

This cohesive group of lawyers, media experts, swarming agents, political handlers and off-shore investors (middle eastern oil money) runs rings around the 1960 style western political party.

2/15/2006 06:31:00 AM  
Blogger Goesh said...

They sure are winning in Europe. Why wouldn't they win? If people are too afraid to defend their own property and lives, then the only alternative is to accept servitude. It's a shame - no more ogling those pretty European women soon to be covered in burqas. I can't understand why the islamic thugs aren't burning bars and porn shops and meat markets that sell pork? I mean, why damage a dumb car that is parked in front of an evil bar? I suppose they are waiting for arms shipments. If I were a jihadist leader, I certainly would kick it up a notch - what's there to stop me? Laws? Irate bloggers? Petitions? Moral outrage? Valuable tactical lessons were learned in France. Burn baby burn. Much of the islamic world lives a marginal existence, so what harm to drag a society down to that level too, when in so doing the threat said society can pose to strong islamic centers is diminished? It is a simple tactic and it really wouldn't take much at all to financially cripple some of the small European nations via armed jihadist thugs on the street willing to die. Europe and much of America simply refuses to understand the visceral contempt they have for us.

2/15/2006 06:44:00 AM  
Blogger plainslow said...

The only thing I get out of this is, a small number of people can hold a large number of people hostage.

2/15/2006 07:10:00 AM  
Blogger Tom Paine said...

The Brussels policeman's comment is most telling.

It shows that the elites who run the show are VOLUNTARILY failing to provide the most basic requirement for civilization -- public order.

Expect some political "changes" to be made if this continues.

2/15/2006 07:34:00 AM  
Blogger Evan said...

An American friend of mine who lives in Amsterdam says that brawling among immigrant youth at night is common, almost to the point that she thinks about leaving a city she loves. The disorder with impunity seems to be getting worse. Before getting better, one hopes, but I am not optimistic.

One thing to watch for in the next few years will be whether the jihadis feel confident enough in their numbers and in native weakness to demand, for example, restrictions on sales of alcohol or on how women dress in public.

2/15/2006 07:43:00 AM  
Blogger PeterBoston said...

evan

The time frames are much tighter than the "next few years." Next month and next week are the decision making cycles.

2/15/2006 07:50:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

Just think, if the Jews that used to live peacefully in Europe had been allowed to LIVE, none of this would be happening...

But since Europe was effectively ethnically cleansed of it's jewish population, the moslems have moved in to fill the vacuum..

but never fear, the the world's greatest murdering populations (the europeans) are being poked awake by a stupid nitwit, the islamist...

No my friends, the show is about to start, but as the christians (small c) of europe are being tossed out (along with their aid and products) from the islamists lair look to disproptionate vulgar actions by the europeans..

after years of the palestinain "uprising", not withstanding their 10's of thousands of attempts nor sincere convictions, they have murdered 1200 israelis..

Look at history, russia, germany, england and france (to start) all successfully can kill so many more, with fewer attempts, with fewer failures...

look out islam, those self imposed ghettos are wonderful targets to TARGET...

pass the pork rinds, 1939 is about to happen again, except this time the it aint the peaceful, artistic, successful, friendly, loving jews, it's a hate filled, caustic, islamo-nazi punks and their families....

look to mass emmigration away from europe soon...

back to the motherland of burkas!

2/15/2006 07:56:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

It would seem, thomas, that Europe is full of Sunshine Patriots and Summer time Soldiers.

There is no desire amongst the Rulers of Europe to confront the threat. They, like US, do not yet admit a threat exists to their Countries or Culture.

The have not yet named the Enemy, in public. As we in the US have not, either.

Today, at Real Clear Politics there are five links that are well worth reading.

The Weekly Standard piece about US intelligence ineptitude in Iraq, exampled by the translation of only 3% of Saddam's preWar plannning documents, to include the names of the foreign fighter Insurgents brought to Iraq, preInvasion.

The TCS Daily article on Mr Moktada al-Sadr and his importance in the "New Iraq". Quite bad for US, actually.

Mr Chavez, Morales and Castro are moving into Iran's camp. A CS Monitor story details the anti US movement in Latin America.

Mr Ed Koch, former Mayor of NYC, bemoans the defeat of the Free Press, here in the US. He fears now that the US may well lose the Mohammedan Wars. His friends in the MSM have let him down, he seems deeply depressed by the actions, or lack, of the NY Times, CNN, etal.

Finally, Slate has a few hundred words about the developments in Burma, another depressing piece of news for US interests abroad.

It seems that, today, in all Spheres of the Conflict the Mohammedans are winning, even where we set the stage in Iraq.

Mr Bush's policy of Democratization, which I fully supported, has considerable unforeseen blowback.

Across the board we are accomadating our Opponents.

When Mr al-Sadr is not considered an US Enemy, there is no War and there are no Enemys, just supposed allies that we pay homage to, while they try to kill our troops.

2/15/2006 08:04:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

That police description is devastating.
After so many years of sensitivity, sometimes it seems like the days of Real Justice existed only in John Wayne movies, but for those of us old enough, we know otherwise.
When The POlice of our small town encountered a thief inside my father's store, he simply raised his sawed off shotgun at the Perp on the other side of the 'Glass, and said,
"Freeze, or I'll blow your F...... Head Off!"
Said POliceman being one of my best friend's dad who would drive us around at the beach in the summer.
...incident related to us by a grey haired librarian who observed the 5am incident.
(Prior to the days when Librarians were "highly educated" pervert/terrorist loving traitors)
Maybe I'm evil but I pray for Pork's 7:56 AM solution, rather than being concerned about Wretchard's 4:51 AM observation about the evident escalation.
At least this time they'll be kicking out the Right People!

2/15/2006 08:15:00 AM  
Blogger Brett L said...

rwe:
The NRA is quite specifically dedicated to protecting RTBA in the US. While they will provide information on how to lobby, GOTV, and raise public awareness to RTBA organizations in other nations, the Association's charter prevents them from forming chapters or becoming involved in other nations.

As to the rest of this story, if the police cannot provide for the safety of law-abiding citizens against rampaging vandals, well, Europa delenda est. Especially in nations where private gun ownership, and the right to bear arms to protect your person and property, is extremely limited.

I feel bad for that poor cop in Antwerp who actually wanted to do his job. Of course, since the Belgian Army can't do anything more than lodge a protest when a quarter of its materiel goes missing, I guess there's no reason to expect better from the city cops. Now, that mayor on the other hand... Oh well, they can just keep paying the jizyah and enter into dhimmitude.

2/15/2006 08:18:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

"There is no desire amongst the Rulers of Europe to confront the threat. They, like US, do not yet admit a threat exists to their Countries or Culture."
---
Symmetry between the Euroweenies and the (former) USA huh?
Right now my bet is on the Weenies beating the PC Populace here to take back the night.
Guns or no Guns.

2/15/2006 08:20:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

"Mr Chavez, Morales and Castro are moving into Iran's camp. A CS Monitor story details the anti US movement in Latin America."
---
Neither JFK nor Reagan would dismiss the importance of those facts.
It used to be "Our Hemisphere."
What an insensitive perspective.

2/15/2006 08:25:00 AM  
Blogger Charles Martel said...

Where will it all end? How can we stop the coming conflagration? Will the Muslims suddenly become more docile and amenable to Western pluralistic ideals? No one can seriously consider this as a possibility. Will the status quo be maintained? That would require an abrupt change in trajectory - nearly impossible.

So what are we left with? The inevitable clash of civilizations. It is coming and cannot be avoided. A growing consensus in the West is coalescing around the inevitablitly of war. The ONLY way to conceivably avoid this war is for Islam to change - and given its inflexibility and immutability over the past fourteen hundred years this seems the least likely outcome of all.

The damage and fallout can be minimized only by confronting the enemy sooner rather than later. This democracies are wont to do. ALL Muslim immigration into the West must stop. And soon expulsion of Muslims will have to begin. The coming denouement will not be pretty.

2/15/2006 08:26:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Charles Martel,
Agreed.
The sooner, the less damage.
Bring on the Bait!
Onward Christian Cartoonists!

2/15/2006 08:28:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

2/15/2006 08:33:00 AM  
Blogger Mətušélaḥ said...

When the decoy-fish raises its lure, it stops moving its gills, stops breathing, and the lure becomes colored with a deep red coloring. At the same time the part that attaches the lure to the decoy-fish becomes transparent, effectively separating it from the fish. The decoy-fish then remains perfectly still while moving the decoy lure from side to side,..

2/15/2006 08:35:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

"The TCS Daily article on Mr Moktada al-Sadr and his importance in the "New Iraq". Quite bad for US, actually."
---
ONE lousy Punk!
...and Al Sistani would have backed our popping him back when popping him would have been smaller potatoes than the Cheney Shooting.

2/15/2006 08:37:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Mika 8:35 AM, (re: "transparent")
REBEL Christian Cartoonists, huh?
What other kind are there?
(Other than all the pathetic Multicultural "Comics" of today's pop-culture)
Batman will know.

2/15/2006 08:42:00 AM  
Blogger Goesh said...

I look for a very concerted move at gun control in the US being the next ideological front here at home. We have seen the battle for freedom of expression take a massive blow by our MSM refusing to fight. You have to seriously ask yourself, what would CAIR's position be on gun ownership? The fringes of islamic culture have always remained in marginal existence, it is what sustains a strong center, much like the body shutting down the flow of blood to extremities when confronted with bitter cold. European ideological threats to strong islamic centers can be taken down or at least seriously weakened economically with simple street violence. You don't need invading armies and jet fighters. The burning of France clearly showed that people will not fight, though of course restricted weapons ownership plays a certain role in that. I think the debate only rages amongst jihadist commanders as to when to take it up a notch, not whether or not it should be stepped up. How much financial havoc could 50 jihadis with AKs willing to die followed by a mob with molotovs cause in a large city in a small European nation with an already weak economy? They say it's all in the numbers.

2/15/2006 08:44:00 AM  
Blogger Peter Fleming said...

Being a resident of the city of Antwerp (and a regular visitor of Wretchard's site) it will come as no surprise that I am not particularly amused about what happened on Saturday.

This is not the first time things like this have happened: a few years ago, "youths" went on a rampage after one of them was killed by what later appeared to be a mentally ill man, resulting in damage that was a lot worse than what happened a few days ago.

In october there will be municipal elections in Antwerp. The city is now run by a coalition of all parties (socialists, greens, christian-democrats and classic liberals), except for the far right, anti-(muslim)immigration party Vlaams Belang (Flemish Interest, previously named Vlaams Blok, Flemish Bloc, before it disbanded itself after being convicted of "inciting racial hatred" (or "telling the truth" according to others). All the other parties have made an arrangement (called the "cordon sanitaire", a veterinary term) to block the Vlaams Belang from coalitions.

The Vlaams Belang had 33% of the vote in Antwerp, its long-time stronghold, at the last local elections in 2000, forcing the other parties that cover the entire political spectrum together into a unconfortable coalition. Meanwhile the party has won 12 consecutive elections since 1991 to become the biggest party nation-wide getting 25% of the vote (recent polls suggest a further rise).

It is said that the local elections are the last chance for the party to get a majority in the cityhall (on its own or by luring dissidents from other parties) as the local demographics, combined with the grant of citizenship (and the right to vote) to (muslim) immigrants will trend to its disadvantage.

2/15/2006 08:45:00 AM  
Blogger enscout said...

pork:
I don't know if i agree that the Muslims filled the vacuum left by the Holacaust. That has been filled by the un-enlightened secular european elite survivors.

The Muslims now fill the unintended role of the baby left at the doorstep. But baby has a gun.

2/15/2006 08:50:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

"after one of them was killed by what later appeared to be a mentally ill man, "
"The One sane man in Antwerp."

"forcing the other parties that cover the entire political spectrum together into a unconfortable coalition. "
Better uncomfortable than Unheaded.
Vs The Intelligencia:
"Better Unheaded than Well Breded"

2/15/2006 08:52:00 AM  
Blogger Mətušélaḥ said...

Doug,

I find it symbolic that the Danish flag is made up of two colors, red and white. It also has a large X mark, a tag to the left. What could be more transparent than that? :)

2/15/2006 08:55:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

2/15/2006 08:57:00 AM  
Blogger Goesh said...

Peter Fleming - this is not intended to be a personal attack on you, but I don't see any anger in you, just veiled fear. Like so many in the West, you are not seeing the now raging visceral contempt many muslims hold us in. It will grow more lethal. I would bet my life on it.

2/15/2006 08:57:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

If, while Europe was being prepped for burning, the Mohammedans stood down elsewhere, it could be for the better.
But NO, the Mohammedans are steppin up, not down, World wide.

Dan Darling reports on three Mohammedan groups that have set up training camps in Somalia.
You all remember that little African locale where the US Military fears to tread. Those folk are, it's said, a bit looney over there.
Last time the Military went to Somalia, in Force, a few Army guys killed 1,200 or so of the local Warlord's guys, while taking a couple of dozen casualties themselves.
This "Victory" by the Mohammedan Warlords has established both Baathist and Jihadist Strategy ever since.
We have yet to return to Somalia and now aQ is there, in force, training tomorrow's Terrorists, today.

at threatswatatch.org

2/15/2006 08:59:00 AM  
Blogger Mətušélaḥ said...

..a "tad" to the left.. (freudian slip?)

2/15/2006 08:59:00 AM  
Blogger Charles Martel said...

Europe is careening toward a critical mass. In fact, only the cooling rods of authority will be able to stave off the inevitable explosion. And a European continent that has become enfeebled by multiculturalism and relativism is not about to exert sufficient authority to avoid spontaneous combustion. Wretchard mentioned that the numbers are fewer than the graphic pictures would suggest. Would that it were so. Unfortunately we are seeing but the tip of the Islamic iceberg.

This death cult has no self regulating or modulating influences. Quite the opposite. The Koran is replete with calls to violence coupled with assurances that allah not only condones such behavior but commands it. From whence can moderation evolve? And if miraculously temperance should express itself, the mainstream elements of Islam are actually commanded to destroy that temperance as apostasy.

Islam is an exquisitely designed civilizational "perfect storm." Just the right combination of nihilism, violence, and odious evil to destroy the pinnacle of human achievement: Western Civilization.

We will be forced to fight a two front war. Islam on the one hand and the forces of nihilism, multiculturalism and relativism on the other. The left is a fifth column and has become the handmaiden of the Islamists.

2/15/2006 09:02:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Yeah, but we had an unfair advantage in Somalia:
They weren't outgunned or out armored.
Think how bad it could be if we became so insensitive as to armor up.

2/15/2006 09:03:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

doug, @ 8:37, if he WAS just one lousy punk, that would be within the Management capacity of US. But he is not alone. His group is the largest bloc within the Shite Alliance, holding 32 seats in the Iraqi Parliment. He is the Power behind the Prime Minister's selection.

The tar baby Osama was trying to stick US with turned out to be in a different venue than Osama had envisioned, but stuck we are.

Let US wait and see how the European (NATO) troops handle the unrest in Southern Afghanistan, while their cities begin to burn, at home.

2/15/2006 09:11:00 AM  
Blogger enscout said...

OT:
There's an article at The American Thinker called "A second Iraqi former commander confirms WMD's".

Worthy read.

I have been convinced all along that Saddam's WMD's went to Syria. It only makes sense.

Will be a smoking cannon once it breaks out of the blogosphere and into MSM. Thought we might help that a long.

2/15/2006 09:12:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

And, of course, doug, Mr al-Sadr "fronts" for the Iranian Mullahs.

2/15/2006 09:13:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

2/15/2006 09:14:00 AM  
Blogger enscout said...

charles martel. 9:02

Well stated.

2/15/2006 09:14:00 AM  
Blogger Cobalt Blue said...

It's interesting that France has not gone up in flames again. The immigrant ghettos that erupted last fall have not done so now. Why not, I wonder. I would have thought the "cartoons of death" would be the perfect pretext for flexing the muscles that the Muslim mob have so recently found itself in possession of.

2/15/2006 09:26:00 AM  
Blogger Mearcstapa said...

Well, the muslim youth are certainly winning the battle for the European street, if not the Arab street. Why are the native Europeans such pussies? Where is the response that took place in Australia?

Why do we want to work with/fight for such limp-wristed nothings?

2/15/2006 09:31:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

stuart,
It is not yet time for a further escalation.
Remember these are not spontaneus events, but part of an overall strategy that is directed from Tehran and Damascus.

The Mohammedans are not playing all their cards at once, but playing for time, sowing fear, and extending their Operational Reach.

From ruling in Baghdad to riots in Antwerp the Mohammedans keep on marching, without creating enough "critical mass" to cause retaliation.

Biding their time, they are.
Waiting for Mr Bush to launch airstrikes against empty building in Iran, securing the Mullahs political survival and Paris burning.
Unlike the NAZI, the Mohammedans will pull the trigger on Paris and the World will watch it burn.
Purely from of Socio-economic causes.

2/15/2006 09:34:00 AM  
Blogger Ardsgaine said...

plainslow wrote:
The only thing I get out of this is, a small number of people can hold a large number of people hostage.

Why? It's not as if Europe lacks the resources to deal with the problem. It's the lack of moral certainty that causes them to cringe back in fear. Their unwillingness to assert the rightness of their society. Where did they get that?

Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are you when men revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so men persecuted the prophets who were before you.


It has been said that the reason for the violence of the Muslims can be found in the Koran. That is true. The reason for the passivity of the West can also be found in their holy book. Christianity is dhimmitude. It is a religion for the persecuted, the downtrodden, the meek. It has wielded power in the past by morphing itself into a crusading religion, a state religion, but practiced in its pure form it is a religion of martyrs.

Caught between the lion and the lamb, liberalism--an anomaly in the history of mankind, the product of a truce between rival religions--will be slaughtered unless it manages to shake itself loose of all religions and confidently assert its moral righteousness on its own terms.

2/15/2006 09:52:00 AM  
Blogger Charles said...

Caught between the lion and the lamb, liberalism--an anomaly in the history of mankind, the product of a truce between rival religions--will be slaughtered unless it manages to shake itself loose of all religions and confidently assert its moral righteousness on its own terms.

////////////
Right. Liberalism as you are talking about is a bunch of people feeding off the moral inheritance of their ancestors. They have supped their full. And now the larder is bare.

As the New Testament would have put it we live by faith and not by geneology.

(Of course this is not a popular idea on the Saudi penninsula either as the inbreeding in the tribes there is causing a lot of genetic problems.)

2/15/2006 10:28:00 AM  
Blogger Ash said...

Desert Rat wrote:

"It is not yet time for a further escalation.
Remember these are not spontaneus events, but part of an overall strategy that is directed from Tehran and Damascus."

Given that the Baath Party is primarily secular and keen on a unified arab world it strikes me as odd that they would form a vertical command and control group with the religious Persians to orchestrate these rather spread out riots and demonstrations.

2/15/2006 10:34:00 AM  
Blogger Dan said...

That's why we need to remove Assad & the Mullahcracy. Otherwise their "inexorable billions" will win. How to do it.

2/15/2006 10:44:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

ash
Just look to the situation between Baathist Syria and Shia Iran. They have mutual defense pacts and the Iranian President was just in Damascus, holding hands, literally, with Mr Assad.

While the Baathists are more secular than the Iranians, stranger alliances have existed in the past.

They do have a common foe.

Just as not everyone's life revolves around Religion here in the West, the same is true every where else, as well.

To your thinkng, would a democratic US ever side with a undemocratic Dictator, say in Eygpt or Uzbeckistan?

War and Reality make for strange bedfellows.

2/15/2006 10:50:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

'Rat,
I read something last night that referenced Assad murdering 20,000 Sunis!

2/15/2006 11:03:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Think I'll start talking to my wife's "Unitarian" (anti-Bush/Christian)French friend again.

I still have some faith in the basic racism of the French to prevent Paris burning, but perhaps just a fantasy, like expecting US Citizens to DEMAND accountability from Washington about the border.

Maybe they'll be like my son's Haitian friends:
Bet on taking advantage of the corrupt situation.
...like we have here so far.
No free lunch, folks, sorry.

2/15/2006 11:10:00 AM  
Blogger Ardsgaine said...

I think you guys here have a lot of good ideas about what ought to be done, but not a very good grasp of why it's not being done. Why do the people counseling pacifism and meekness have the moral high ground? It's because you've accepted the Sermon on the Mount as the final word on ethics, and it's in direct conflict with your "lock and load" rhetoric. What has to be done cannot be done in the name of Jesus without turning Christianity into a lie. Yet, it has to be done if we wish to remain free.

The barbarians of the West in the days of Charles Martel were not as intellectually sophisticated as we are now. If the priests said it was okay to kill, then it was okay to kill. Few even knew what Jesus had to say on the subject. They only knew what they were told. If you want to mobilize the people of the West to resist their would-be murderers, then the first thing you have to do is get them to reject the ethical system that says it is better to die a martyr than to lift one's hand against an enemy.

2/15/2006 11:10:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

...or better to hire cheap illegal help and buy slave labor products than to take a stand.
Just for a change, of course.

2/15/2006 11:13:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

It was "papa" Assad, doug, not the young Doctor in charge, today.

Razed an entire town, if memory serves, killing most of the inhabitiants.

The name of the town, wich escapes me at the moment, became a verb in the lingua local, meaning to be destroyed

2/15/2006 11:14:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

The Doc,
The one with those narrow-set eyes.
...like a Rat!

2/15/2006 11:15:00 AM  
Blogger Dan said...

Oh i know - bomb their asses.

2/15/2006 11:17:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Yep

2/15/2006 11:18:00 AM  
Blogger Dan said...

Hama.

2/15/2006 11:18:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

I meant for Hama, but it's right the way it is.

2/15/2006 11:19:00 AM  
Blogger Dan said...

Heh.

2/15/2006 11:21:00 AM  
Blogger Dan said...

al-Sadr, by the way, provides a lovely test-case for what happens when you don't assassinate/slaughter/lynch whatev these types. now theyre in parliament, deciding PMs!

Oh Joy! Oh forebearance! Oh Trishy's anxiety! Aren't we so wonderful, Jesus?

Shut up. Bomb. Pick it up folks. This is not a subtle analytical problem. Time is the enemy. Rat's boy only has 193 more days to go. Fine. 6 months? Hey - wait til after the elections. Just watch out for those hamstringing "Abu Ghraib horrors!" coming out again, or whatnot other propoganda-for-suckers.

Round them up. Send them home. Who cares what they want. Goodnight, Irene. They were not brought here to pick cotton. They do not believe they are the collective delusional suckass parasites that they are. Und so weiter.

2/15/2006 11:26:00 AM  
Blogger Jamie Irons said...

Rat,

The number I have always read for the dead of Hama (due to Papa Assad's artillery flattening the entire place) was 10,000.

I'm not sure who counted the dead, though.

Jamie Irons

2/15/2006 11:28:00 AM  
Blogger Papa Bear said...

PhilippinePhil,
>>I loved the Aussie reaction when some of their resident Islamics acted up a few months ago. When they saw that their government wouldn't protect them, they went out and asserted themselves. <<

I recall reading about a time in the 1950's or so, when some blacks wanted to hold a civil rights march. The police of the southern town told them that they would not assign police to the march to protect them. The march organizers responded, "OK, we'll bring our guns and protect ourselves"

They got their police protection. There were no incidents

2/15/2006 11:36:00 AM  
Blogger Will Rayford said...

On the Chin
Other than the successful Predator air-to-ground missile attack against AQ's lead bomb-maker in Pakistan late last month, 2006 appears to be the year America goes completely limp in the Global War on Terror. The Left's pacification program seems to have successfully neutered President Bush. Maybe he's just playing Muhammad Ali rope-a-dope, but that's not good for the troops on the ground in Iraq or Afghanistan, is it? Indeed, barely a peep out of our Commander-in-Chief as the humorless Islamists burn up Dutch embassies across the Middle East and South Asia over a 5-month old batch of semi-funny cartoons no less. Our response - "shhhhhhhh.... don't say anything or else the Saudis won't like us any more." And, yes, the President is certainly being pummeled by Democrats and our friends in the Media, but for what? Spying on an enemy who will gleefully kill each and every man, woman, and child in the West.

Oh well, we should have recognized long ago that we were fighting a two front war.

That said, can you blame Bush for not fighting? Yes you can. Since he won't be running for office again, the political impediments should be few - none in terms of what he should be doing in the war on terror. Yet, for a so-called war President I'm not seeing much war. It is long past time for him to take the gloves off, turn loose our devil dogs and go on the offensive. If we stand still, we are going to get the dung slapped out of us. So, here is my humble recommendation to get us out of first gear. The next time that fanatical Iranian dictator opens that evil pie hole of his, I say we stick a few bunker busters straight down his Persian shoot. No questions asked, no preamble, just a devastating, horrifying blow. Hey pal, cartoons my hairy ass!

Alternatively, we can continue to suck our thumbs, stick our heads in the mud, grow female parts, and pretend that IAEA and the UN will take care of all our swarthy-faced nightmares.

As an aside, I saw on FOX News a few days ago that the Mexican drug gangs practically own our southern boarder - that these scum are actually making incursions into the US border towns, digging tunnels, and intimidating our own citizens with superior fire power. About this I have just one question: What would Ronald Reagan do? This kind of horse crap wouldn't have played with Ronnie. No way. He'd be using the Predator ten times double. My friend, you and I both know that there would be bushels and bushels of stone dead Mexican drug lords. The Mexicans incursions would cease, like pronto. The Press would scream bloody murder, Reagan would just smile and wave and give us the thumbs up, and you and I would love him for it.

President Bush talks about playing "Big Ball." Well el Presidente, I sure as hell didn't vote you in to see this "No Ball" game I'm seeing. Don't get me wrong. I like you, I really do. But either we fight hard or we are going to take one on the chin - a hard one. And that is unacceptable.

2/15/2006 11:43:00 AM  
Blogger Papa Bear said...

desert rat,
Last time the Military went to Somalia, in Force, a few Army guys killed 1,200 or so of the local Warlord's guys, while taking a couple of dozen casualties themselves.
This "Victory" by the Mohammedan Warlords has established both Baathist and Jihadist Strategy ever since.


Why did you put "Victory" in quote marks? It WAS their victory. We left, didn't we? We achieved a high body count in Vietnam, too. Didn't matter.

Victory is not determined by relative body count. It is determined by who is still there at the end, free to work their will on the area

2/15/2006 11:49:00 AM  
Blogger Dan said...

Stop being afraid, bomb. Offense. The mullahs pose an existential threat? "Oh no! Woe is us! Oh Woe!"

Well, looks like it's time to invade North Vietnam and take out Haiphong Harbor.

We can't keep making the mistake of not doing it.

2/15/2006 12:01:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

Oh - and kill Sadr.

A little more brutality, please - evidently it translates much more clearly.

2/15/2006 12:02:00 PM  
Blogger Mike H. said...

Ardsgaine,

Psalm 144.

Charles Martel,

I concur with the two front war, we should engage the second front ASAP. It seems that they're not destroying themselves quickly enough.

2/15/2006 12:05:00 PM  
Blogger Ash said...

Dan wrote:

"Stop being afraid, bomb. Offense. The mullahs pose an existential threat? "Oh no! Woe is us! Oh Woe!""

They don't pose an existential threat to US do they?

2/15/2006 12:07:00 PM  
Blogger Cobalt Blue said...

All those years I heard about how the "internal contradictions of capitalism" would bring about the downfall of America and the first world. That never happened, obviously.

What I never did hear about until now is that it will be the internal contradictions of freedom that will bring about our downfall--because freedom entails protection of those who advocate unfreedom. It also has meant an indiscriminate and wholesale moral levelling--the price of our own license.

Our constitution, in other words, is in danger of becoming a suicide pact--no matter the Supreme Court justice (I forget which one) who said it wasn't.

2/15/2006 12:15:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Papa,
Don't know which hole 'Rat went down, but I'm pretty sure he meant just what you said.
When he pokes his furry face up again, we'll know for sure.

2/15/2006 12:22:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Stuart,
Freedom plus affluence plus decadence.

2/15/2006 12:24:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

papa
Once, some time ago, I wrote of the Mohammedan Victory in Somalia and was taken to task for it.

Seems that since some of our guys got out alive, not all readers here considered it a "Defeat".

As you say the enemy has control of the Ground. We do not.

It was a short engagement in a "Long" war.

Quite telling, though.

2/15/2006 12:24:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

According to Mr Cheney, when we add up all the little losses, in a decade or two, we'll have obtained a BIG WIN.

His target acquisition skills seem a bit rough, though. Didn't know quail in Texas wore Day Glow Orange until yesterday.

2/15/2006 12:29:00 PM  
Blogger Ash said...

Desert Rat, since you brought it up:

"THE DAILY SHOW``The Vice President is standing by his decision to shoot Harry Whittington. Now, according to the best intelligence available, there were quail hidden in the brush. Everyone believed at the time there were quail in the brush. And while the quail turned out to be a 78-year-old man, even knowing that today, Mr. Cheney insists he still would have shot Mr. Whittington in the face.''

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/arts/entertainment-cheney-accident-jokes.htmlent-jokes.html

2/15/2006 12:41:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Rice to Ask for $75 Million to Promote Democracy in Iran
Democrats questioned her about whether Bush administration policies were promoting the rise of anti-U.S. governments.

2/15/2006 12:44:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

"America and Israel have to walk a very narrow line in defining their relations with a democratically elected Palestinian government built around Hamas, a party that not only endorses terrorism but also commits it."

From NYTimes' op-ed today about "Pressuring HAMAS"

OK - one more time for everyone who doesn't get this.

DEMOCRACY is a FORM OF GOVERNMENT.

The present strategy is to extend full sufferage to the peoples of the Middle East that have suffered the same kind of totalitarian withering that occurred under Soviet domination throughout the 20th Century.

IF THOSE PEOPLE TURN OUT TO BE PSYCHOTIC, there is nothing that says we are bound to "respect them" because more of them than previously were the agents of barbarism.

Thus, for example, kill Sadr. WHy? If you gotta ask why, you'll never know.

BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY, this entire "Initiative" is for the purpose of yanking the earth's last large supposedly once-civilized but pre-modern society into the growing arrangements that define stability - suck it up if you think that's chimerical - in a world involving jumbo jets, computers and nuclear weapons.

The purpose of democratization is to bring about a result that in older, more honest, candid and cruel ages would have been dealt with by outright sluaghter, subjugation, slavery and co-option until they got it into their maniacal little heads to calm down and get into the game.

IF THAT IS NOT WHAT HAPPENS, WE STILL HAVE THE ANCIENT OPTION - and indeed, not so ancient options, nor so cruel - TO AVAIL OURSELVES OF WITHOUT HYPOCRISY.

Why people think needlessly tolerating this inexorable rise in the fortunes of maniacs and people whom you just don't like is to me a retarded form of thinking.

2/15/2006 12:48:00 PM  
Blogger geoffgo said...

Dan,

You advocate the re-interpretation of "collateral damage;" i.e., those populations harboring terrorists are complicit and therefore not innocent bystanders.

IMHO, this may be the only way to influence Islam to scrap the scum off their souls/soles, and move into te 21st century.

2/15/2006 12:51:00 PM  
Blogger PeterBoston said...

Our constitution, in other words, is in danger of becoming a suicide pact

Oh, please. It would have been better if the MSM in the US had responded less "sensitively" to the cartoon jihad, and it would have been better if the Euroweenies had responded in a more law and order fashon to the street thugs, but things are hardly out of control or any where near that.

We tolerated far worse civil disturbances in the 60s, 70s, and 80s without the police raking the streets with machine gun fire. Even during the French riots, which looked out of control from here, the "youths" knew where the physical boundaries were, and so did the French police.

The cartoon jihad is symptomatic of a larger problem. I hope we see more of them. The pork chop jihad is my personal favorite. The more violent and uncompromising the jihadis appear the more people in the USA and Europe will move to the right. Everything in its own time.

2/15/2006 12:52:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

"An existential threat to US"?

How do you mean this? No: as far as I know, there may be some Islamic bombs, but there is no Islamic arsenal of continent-killing size.

Consider, however, one nuclear attack or a few simultaneous nuclear attacks on NYC and LA, NYC and DC - what have you.

Now, maybe they won't do this. Maybe they'll just give a

Ash - yknow what? Sometimes "imminent threat of annihilation" isn't the most rational threshhold beyond which to begin considering forcing reality to take a less threatening hue.

2/15/2006 12:54:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

geoffgo,

That was once supposed to be US Policy, but some where between Rhetoric and Action the meaning of "Support" was changed.

Now a days you'd have to be Osama's jockstrap to be guilty of supporting terror.

2/15/2006 12:58:00 PM  
Blogger Ardsgaine said...

Mike H. wrote:
Ardsgaine,

Psalm 144.


Alright, then. Rip the book in half, and throw away the part that keeps us from fighting. I'll settle for that, as long as I can still have a ham sandwich and celebrate the American Saturnalia, sometimes known as Christmas.

2/15/2006 01:06:00 PM  
Blogger bobalharb said...

At least from the time of Constantine on it's hard for me to think of an example where the New Testiment kept a group or nation from fighting for its position. Before Constantine the early Christins werren't keen to join a fight but they weren't really in a position to do so. From the record one would think that Christianity really didn't 'take' very deeply in Europe. What causes the behavior today I sure don't know.

2/15/2006 01:18:00 PM  
Blogger geoffgo said...

Rat,

It seems the Palastinian citizens voted away their collateral status.

How must we point that out? It would be a "sin" to burden Israel with the entirety of this matter.

2/15/2006 01:19:00 PM  
Blogger Ozymandias said...

Europe is going to be overtaken by demographics. As Peter Flemings mentioned in regards to Belgium, Vlaams Belang has probably one last chance to take control before the Muslim tide (with the collaboration of leftie multicultists) overwhelms them.

Mark Steyn says we're going to see a lot of high quality immigrants from Europe. I think he's right. They and their children, during future Muslim tantrums, can help us face down a hostile Eurabia armed with hundreds of nuclear warheads and extremely good air, land and sea launch capabilities.

I highly recommend Mark's latest insightful article on the subject of demographics and the spread of the Anglo-sphere.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,18159605%255E7583,00.html

2/15/2006 01:27:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

geoffgo

That does not seem to be the way it is playing out, on the Ground.

The Israelis forked over $45 or $55 million USD to the Hamas PA, just last week.

The Russians are going to meet with Hamas and the Iranians, they'll work everything out. It will all be fine, really.

They Mohammedans need and deserve US Aid. Hundreds of millions USD, last year for the PA, billions USD for Egypt annually, for decades now, hundreds of billions USD spent building schools in Iraq.

Now Mr al-Sadr and his ilk can get to little Iraqi minds of mush, even earlier, in US finaced schools.

Do not worry, though, we'll be staying the course, no matter that we've run aground.

2/15/2006 01:27:00 PM  
Blogger Sardonic said...

Fullerton:
"What I never did hear about until now is that it will be the internal contradictions of freedom that will bring about our downfall--because freedom entails protection of those who advocate unfreedom."

Actually, I heard this first when I read Plato's Republic. Socrates suggested this very case when he deliniates the five forms of government which evolve from each other due to the objectives of the leaders of each form of government. Monarchy (Wisdom) devolves to Aristocracy (Excellence) which devolves to Timocracy (Honor), which devolves to Oligarchy (Wealth), which updrafts to Democracy when the commons rebel against the Oligarchs (Freedom), which then devolves to Tyranny (Lust). The reason he gives for the destruction of Democracy is the one you state: The tyrants become free to exercise their power. We are seeing this effect today with Islamofascism assuming the advantages of ruthlessly warring against a peace-oriented free society. The Enemy, knowingly, infiltrates and then destroys the society from within (Paris Riots are a good example of how). Note: when Europe was a Monarchical system this could not happen. Thus will historians of the distant future conclude that the Revolutions of the 18th Century that gave us the free world, philosophy and the advanced sciences, may also have sown the seeds of its own destruction? Perhaps. But not if I can help it.

And furthermore, the Relgion of Lying must be destroyed (with Truth)!

Cato The Elder II has spoken.

2/15/2006 01:31:00 PM  
Blogger fastfoodnationalist said...

Family member of mine was having lunch with president bush shortly after 9/11. Bush explained that 9/11 was a "home game" and he wanted all further games to be "away games". Whats worth considering here is the value of making these societies function like ours; let them do the fighting and suffering while we just peddle our resources and influence to the side we want to win; that we can kill as many people as we need to, but the utility of killing may have diminishing returns as far as long-term strategies go.

We could just glassify Indonesia and that’d be that, but I guess our leaders treat nukes differently than some people here may. We always have the nuclear options, but at the moment, the game is to get foreign societies to police these problems; the problem here is perhaps that foreign societies aren’t up for the fight against the barbarians. What of the societies that are co-opted by Islamic morbidity? What happens to Syria and Iran in 2006 will indicate the effectiveness of this strategy. We can only speculate as to what is being aligned against them, but it seems the gears of post ww2 and post cold war intl systems are still churning, however slowly…

Consider as analogy the Sisyphean task of debulking metastatic tumors, though there is certainly no “for eternity” notion present here. Interestingly, immunologic strategies have sought to get the immune system to do what its supposed to be doing as far as subtly and obviously non-self stuff go. Par for the course is local inflammation that can be be quickly accompanied by an adaptive response to the specific antagonist. Both of these mechanisms (for law and order, i.e. a state’s healthy homeostasis) are poorly present or entirely absent in areas where Islamic morbidity flourishes, which is to be expected.
Part of the answer is debulking to buy us time, granted. But the system needs to be made better able to handle these challenges. Barnett explained the system has responses to economic failure but it lacks the security responses needed for the challenges manifest in 9/11, suicide bombing campaigns supported in immigrant networks etc.

Afghanistan was very much debulking; Iraq represents the next step: the creation of a new evolutionarily stable strategy to allow Iraqis to do to morbid islamists what Texans would do. How do you create a new memetic organism? Beats me. Probably not easy or quick. So far, it seems the boldest thrust of our strategy is the pursuit to establish the adaptive advantages of accountable, pluralist societies united under a stable and powerful and RESPONSIVE governance, with all the appropriate Islamic trifles necessary for this ESS to survive in Shia and Sunni populations. You need concerned citizens, cops and swat teams for inflammatory responses. You need organized smart and happy people for the adaptive. If there is a viable ESS born of it, the better for Iraq; if there is a competitive and virulent ESS born out of this, then we have a memetic contagion that will tear Saudi and Iranian power structures to pieces.

And so if the Islamic deus ex machina against Israeli regional dominance (re: Syria and Iran) was the suicide bombing campaign and duplicitous politicking with compromised (non-self) western bedfellows, and if the European deus ex machina is simply mini muslim mobs of seemingly “Marxist-derived” pathos, and the strategically important heart strings they tug upon, what is the Islamic deus ex machina for the US? I’m not sure, but perhaps our immunological strategy, replete with anti-islamist memetic creep is the American deus ex machina for the remnant barbarians?

All while we enjoy our digital music and maintain sufficient productivity to maintain the economic base proposed by the NDIA – the one which will present further opponents with the networked swarm of 100 shot/second laser swarms. Should such a point be reached, the barbarians will have a choice between the productive life, the laser swarm, and a hobbesian life in abject obscurity in whatever hell hole of remains dismissively unintegrated. (This is the part of the “pussified” strategy that people fail to consider. Its not shock and awe, but short of nuking everyone else, there is no other way to win the game perhaps.)

2/15/2006 02:10:00 PM  
Blogger fastfoodnationalist said...

also,

counter terrorism blog links to a report published on the vulnerabilities of AQ and an assessment as to the success of exploiting them

"To the contrary, the documents reflect ongoing jihadi concerns about operational security and sustainability in the midst of America’s counterterrorism efforts. Encouragingly, some of the documents even reflect al-Qa’ida’s fear that U.S. intelligence collection efforts are in some cases exceeding al-Qa’ida’s ability to enact countermeasures."

What kind of countermeasure do you make for an American-brand society that self-polices terrorists?

2/15/2006 02:29:00 PM  
Blogger Peter Fleming said...

goesh,

I was just stating the political facts in Antwerp. You don't need me for their interpretation. It is plain to see.

I may sound neutral, but I ám angry and fully aware of what may lie ahead.

2/15/2006 02:33:00 PM  
Blogger fastfoodnationalist said...

I guess the question is:

Will the ESS manifest in Denmark prove more survivable than the ESS of Solana and his eurocrats? Which ESS has better enforcement mechanisms? Which one has more resources? Which one has more will? The spoils of the continent are at stake. There may not be time for Sarkozy to turn the Solana ESS tide...

2/15/2006 02:40:00 PM  
Blogger Fernand_Braudel said...

PhilippinePhil said...

As soon as non-Muslim Europeans start showing the same kind of gumption, perhaps their police will start doing THEIR job, to knock heads and arrest as many of those belligerent punks as can be caught.


Don't hold your breath. Those Euros are about as neutered a people as you can get. Look up the word 'castrated' in the dictionary and you'll see a picture of Europeans.

2/15/2006 02:51:00 PM  
Blogger Fernand_Braudel said...

Doug said...
Charles Martel,
Agreed.
The sooner, the less damage.
Bring on the Bait!
Onward Christian Cartoonists!


Ditto.

Time for a cartoon of the four horsemen of the apocalypse with Muhamed, Ali, Khomeni, and A.Q.Khan all riding hogs (not the Orange County Chopper types).

2/15/2006 03:18:00 PM  
Blogger trangbang68 said...

RaymondW,Liked your concise history of three generations.As one of your father's generation,I agree with your portrait of the Islamo dirtbags.While AQ may be producing a few decent troops;the only strength in most of the rabble is the power of the mob.If somebody thought to take the gloves off,any well equipped modern western army with esprit de corps(I guess that leaves the US,UK andAussies) could hand them their rearend in a sling in about 5 minutes.The one common denominator of all these Islamic groups seems to be a total lack of prudence.Read the writings about General Giap.He understood you only fought when it favored your armies decisively.These clowns constantly ratchet up their outrages as if their goal is to push the west and Europe in particular to the tipping point.I find it hard to believe everybody in western Europe is a gelding.The two guys in France are a start.

2/15/2006 03:23:00 PM  
Blogger wretchard said...

With the recent publication of new Abu Ghraib photos, old news but evergreen, there's no reason to believe that policy will ever return to the hands of urbane, tea-sipping diplomats and wordly-wise businessmen. With each passing day the politicians become more and more constrained by the feelings of their constituents. The Afghan and Iraqi governments probably feel the need to denounce the Mohammed cartoons, while in the West politicians are finding political correctness isn't so popular any more. Slowly things fall apart.

At some point some political systems become vulnerable to a demagogue who will promise "to settle accounts", "fix this problem once and for all", "do what needs to be done". I'd argue that Osama bin Laden and Ahmadinejad are already such demagogues feeding on the frustrations of the Muslim world. "Allah willing, we will destroy Israel", etc. Their brownshirts are already in the streets. If crowds start showing up to oppose them the liberal establishment will they are no longer leading events but reacting to them.

2/15/2006 03:29:00 PM  
Blogger trangbang68 said...

Ardsgaine,What pacifists and meek people are you referring to who are resisting the war because of their adherance to the Sermon on the Mount?
I daresay most of Europe is radically secularist ,lacking will and courage and any kind of national identity and purpose worth fighting for.I guess that's the dream of the EU bureaucrats.
Ideas have consequences.
Ash,your analogy of Cheney's incident and the WMD issue in Iraq shows why you're an utter jackass.

Ash posts on Daily Kos under his/her other identity,Buzzy Sensamilla
"This is big.This is the smoking gun...the ranch was owned by a Halliburton employee,The victim's initials were H.W.(Halliburton/wiretaps,anyone?)
What's the tie in to Tom Delay?
What did Whittington know about the Chimp's National Guard records?
This is Texas.What about Dealey Plaza?Was Cheney on the grassy knoll?"

2/15/2006 03:39:00 PM  
Blogger Ash said...

trabang65,

I'm sorry the humor offended you so much. Maybe you should start a riot.

That is another Ash. I've never posted nor visited that place you mentioned. Somebody else, or maybe it was you, once brought this other Ash up a month or two ago. Again, not me.

2/15/2006 03:42:00 PM  
Blogger Fernand_Braudel said...

Will Rayford said:

The next time that fanatical Iranian dictator opens that evil pie hole of his, I say we stick a few bunker busters straight down his Persian shoot. No questions asked, no preamble, just a devastating, horrifying blow. Hey pal, cartoons my hairy ass!


LMAO!!!

2/15/2006 03:46:00 PM  
Blogger Fernand_Braudel said...

Will Rayford for president!

2/15/2006 03:48:00 PM  
Blogger Fernand_Braudel said...

BTW Ozymandias, you've got the Avatar of the Year award :))

2/15/2006 03:58:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

Collateral damage? Well my first understanding is that the scope of impact is now rather narrow, and could be limited to OIF/OEF levels of collateral damage. Personally, yes - I find these acceptable.

Secondly, if you can't convince the liberal next door "Look - al-Jafaari just got appointed Prime Minister in a vote decided by Iran-puppet and Slum-lord Moqtada al-Sadr - you're still convinced that United States is an EMPIRE? That we would allow such a thing in a place where we have 150,000 troops and all sorts of bakshish to blow around, you f-cking moron?" then how can I possibly conclude that these cats we have to herd can be convinced, rationally, to reinterpret their worldview with that age-old convincer, death by fire?

Eh?

My bright line is Iranian nukes. The terrorist problem specifically is at once slower-moving, on-going, and slippery. The Iran-has-nukes/Israel-must-be-wiped-off-the-map scenario is a big, big problem.

And whoever broadcast those "new" Abu Ghraib pictures should be the next one a photo naked with panties on his head a stubby toothed dwarfy improvised MP mocking his tiny wang. What in the hell is wrong with everyone.

THIS is the "problem" with this strategy - and it is the ONLY problem.

2/15/2006 04:38:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

Should read "withOUT that age-old convincer, death by fire?"

And I'm not talking about genocide, damnit.

And to anyone who thinks this would increase the rage and grievances against us: WAKE UP.

2/15/2006 04:40:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Hell ash, I thought it was funny.

My respect for Mr Cheney has hit new lows. About as low as it could be. It has nothing to do with Halliburton, Iraq or Iran.
No. it is with his sight picture as he squeezed off a round.
To fire a weapon at a noise or commotion or whatever without a clear picture of what you are shooting is the ultimmate stupidity, in a sporting situation.

Mr Cheney should be relieved of all Governmental duties, as was the Marine that shot the Terrorist faking death in Fallujah, until Mr Cheney is proven to be fully mentally competent.
To think he is a heartbeat from the Nuclear trigger is not refreshing.

2/15/2006 04:48:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

2/15/2006 04:56:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

'Rat,
I just heard the man himself say he was following a bird, not a "commotion."
Hume asked if he got the bird, he said he had no idea, that as the lawyer appeared in his sight vision, he quit tracking the bird.
Lawyer Down!

2/15/2006 04:57:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

I heard him say he saw Mr Whitington(?) fall after he pulled the trigger.

That put the man in his line of sight, obviously. The target was shot high in the side and frontal chest, as I saw the diagram on TV.

So poor Mr Whitington was not crouched or seeking cover, but to be either standing or walking, up right. For Mr Cheney to have seen him fall, put him in the sight picture as he sqeezed the round off. By his own admission.

The man is not competent enough to carry a loaded firearm, let alone command the Military of the United States.

His competentcy is beneath contempt.

2/15/2006 05:05:00 PM  
Blogger Mətušélaḥ said...

d'Rat,

He did shoot a lawyer. That can't be all bad.

2/15/2006 05:10:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

He shot a man, whch in and of itself is understandable.
But to do it accidently, while huntig birds, is the high point of stupid.
It calls into question the mental capacity of the shooter. No matter whom the trigger man happens to be.

That he is the Vice President of the United States makes it even more than serious, his mental condition is of criical importance.

Belittle it or shrug it off, as you wish, but his judgement is not to be trusted, and that is the truth.

2/15/2006 05:22:00 PM  
Blogger whit said...

It looks like some rat crapped in here.

2/15/2006 05:24:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

And hit the target, bullseye

2/15/2006 05:24:00 PM  
Blogger Jamie Irons said...

Mika,

You'll enjoy this:

http://chasemeladies.blogspot.com/2006/02/pogrom-of-quails.html

Walking around eating seeds and saying "cheep" isn’t much of a life, but to many quails it’s the only life they know, and the decision to end it should not be Dick Cheney’s. Lawyers are another matter, of course. I’ve often thought of going out and hunting them myself. Quite apart from the sport, it would be in the public interest. On the other hand, what have the public ever done for me?

;-)


Jamie Irons

2/15/2006 05:30:00 PM  
Blogger PeterBoston said...

rat

Want to go quail hunting?

2/15/2006 05:35:00 PM  
Blogger Mətušélaḥ said...

Jamie,

:D



Uncle Dick's Wacky Hunting Adventure

If Dick Elmer Cheney had consulted Sarah Brady before his wild quail hunting safari last weekend, he would have known that firearms were dangerous. It was a lesson she learned the hard way when her husband was gunned down by Chuck Heston in 1981. But off the Great White Hunter went anyway, traipsing across the wilds of North Carolina like Ernest Bleeping Hemingway through the Serengeti, and several innocent quail paid the price for his ignorance.

In his crazed blood lust, Cheney (whose daughter is a lesbian) also wounded a fellow hunter, but never bothered to report the incident to Maureen Dowd. If the media covers the story with the rabid fervor of liberal hysteria it deserves, it has the potential to evolve into a scandal that can destroy Cheney’s 2008 White House bid, and will most suredly bode well for gun safety advocates like Al Gore and John Kerry. However, I’m going to wait for Ted Kennedy to weigh in on this whole issue before commenting any further.

The quail have been listed in critical yet stable condition at an undisclosed veterinary clinic, doing remarkably well considering they were just shot out of the sky by a sneering gorilla with an elephant gun. Volunteers from PETA are standing guard should Cheney make another attempt on their lives.
.
.
http://blamebush.typepad.com

2/15/2006 05:48:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Boston, 5:35 PM
The real question is has he ever BEEN Hunting.
(Not for deer, squirrels, or Rats, that is.)
Consensus I've heard is that it is a common occurence.
Lots of folks been hit or have hit others.
Maybe 'Rat follows the lawyers, then suddenly raises his sight in hopes of catching a stray bird?
But I do detect a bit of ill-will there.
(Reminder, 'Rat:
Cheney never would have had Powell at State, among other things.
Being VP and all, he carries on like a good soldier.)

2/15/2006 06:00:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Mika,
Jamie considers that some of his best work!

2/15/2006 06:02:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Maybe 'Rat just holds the shotgun stationary and waits for a bird to fly into his sights?

2/15/2006 06:05:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

I would, pb, but Dan Quayle lives here in Arizona, from time to time.
I think the Secret Service would get upset.

Running down coyotes (four legged) on horseback is much more fun than shooting little birds or lawyers.

It's like Fox hunting only without the little beagle dogs to get in the way.

Still bow hunt from time to time, but shooting animals at distance is not that high on my list of fun things to do.

2/15/2006 06:11:00 PM  
Blogger Ardsgaine said...

bobalhard wrote:
At least from the time of Constantine on it's hard for me to think of an example where the New Testiment kept a group or nation from fighting for its position.

As I said in my first post on the subject, Christianity "has wielded power in the past by morphing itself into a crusading religion, a state religion, but practiced in its pure form it is a religion of martyrs."

Before Rome fell to the barbarians it fell to a two pronged attack from philosophical skepticism and Christian mysticism, both of which challenged the rational and ethical basis of Roman society. Skepticism is nothing more than a black hole, and is incapable of building anything, so the Christians won by default and were left to rebuild from the remnants of the empire.

To do that, though, they had to transform Christianity from a religion of martyrs to a religion of crusaders, from a religion of the persecuted to a religion of persecutors. It was never a comfortable fit, though, and that's a large part of what the Protestant revolt was all about. In becoming a state religion, the church became corrupted by power and wealth. In places where the Protestants seized power, though, they showed themselves to be equally corruptible. The only solution was to separate religion from the power of the state. Once that was done, Christianity was free to revert to its roots.

Now, with the Muslim threat looming large, and Western society in a state of decline, we need an unequivocal moral sanction for asserting the value of our society over theirs. The pure, pacifist form of Christianity would tell us to accept martyrdom. A militant Christianity can claim divine sanction for making war on the infidels, but our society is too intellectually advanced to recognize a moral difference between two sets of religious fanatics. When our forefathers threw off the British yoke, their motto was "live free or die." We have diminished since those days. I would hazard a guess that 70-90% of Americans, think that freedom means having free health care and a job they can't be fired from.

It takes a lot of self-assertiveness to be willing to kill in one's self-defense, especially in a lop-sided war that, if we fought it with all the force at our command, would look more like a slaughterhouse. It means standing up and saying, "I will not be a martyr. My life and my freedom are too important to me to let a bunch of ignorant savages take them away. If hundreds of thousands of them must die in order for me to live free, then so be it."

Can you find a sanction for that attitude in the Bible? If not, then you might want to start looking elsewhere.

2/15/2006 06:20:00 PM  
Blogger Mətušélaḥ said...

Doug,

That must be so. We know "Harry Hutton" can't be the one that scribed it, cause if that's not a lawyer's name, than I don't know what is.

2/15/2006 06:22:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

I do not think that is not the consensus of the NRA, doug, that shooting your hunting partner is a common occurance.

I have hunted many times since I was 8 years old. I have met many hunters, I published, decades ago, a hunting newspaper for the Arizona Wildlife Assoc. I publishd the Arizona Sportsman, previous to the Assoc. work, which was a hunting and shooting publication.

Shooting your hunting partner was never common, then. If it occured, the competency of the shooter was ALWAYS questioned.

I'll call Game & Fish, tomorrow, if it's important to you, doug, and see just how common it is, to shoot your hunting partner.

All treated gunshot wounds are reported, here in AZ, so there should be stats. There are a tens of thousands of licensed hunters here, doug, how many shootings per thousand per annum would make it common?

2/15/2006 06:25:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Think there were 20-30.
How many Quail Tags issued in AZ?
Maybe Texas would be a better bet, but my buddies there say that's just a form of greeting, not a reportable event.

2/15/2006 06:34:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Then your buddies are dumber than dirt.

2/15/2006 06:41:00 PM  
Blogger Ardsgaine said...

trangbang68 wrote:
Ardsgaine,What pacifists and meek people are you referring to who are resisting the war because of their adherance to the Sermon on the Mount?
I daresay most of Europe is radically secularist ,lacking will and courage and any kind of national identity and purpose worth fighting for.


They are secular in the sense of not accepting the mystical basis of the Bible, but they still accept the moral precepts therein. They just try to come up with a secular justification for them. I daresay that Americans have rejected Jesus's teachings far more than they have, but neither side would admit it.

Americans are predominantly oriented towards this world and the enjoyment of life. They are selfish in the best sense of that word, being concerned with their own best interests. It's a very tenuous feeling, though, and they can be pushed off of it very easily when challenged. All it takes is someone shouting at them, "You're just being selfish," and they fold.

Well, defending your life and your freedom by mercilessly killing a hundred thousand religious fanatics is a very selfish thing to do. We need a president who's not afraid to be called selfish.

2/15/2006 06:53:00 PM  
Blogger bobalharb said...

Deuteronomy 6:10-12; Deut. 7:1-6; Deut. 20: 10-18

2/15/2006 06:58:00 PM  
Blogger bobalharb said...

Cheney said(so I read) there wasn't room enough in the ambulance to accompany the victum to the hospital--so he goes back to the ranch and fixes himself a cocktail. Hitch a ride with the Secret Service to the hospital perhaps? Seems the least one should do.

2/15/2006 07:07:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

Ardsgaine,

I'd just like to speak up for the non-hawks I know. For them, it simply isn't a question of "live free or die" - they do not believe jihadis pose an existential threat, or indeed a threat to our freedom as they conceive it. I admit it's hard to argue with them, and folks like Scheuer, Buchanan and, on the other side, Mark and Gramsci and Fanon have provided them with the theory that these jihadis are simply trying to evict the infidel, cleanse the corruption, and restore a measure of native sanity to the badly wounded Ummah.

Pointing out that this is a typical menu of propositions for every revolutionary regime in Europe since 1789 and look what actually happened is of no avail to there folks, since few of them have read much history or developed their historical or strategic imaginations.

But I try to sympathize with their point of view because it does indeed look as though the draw-the-US-in-we'll-have-a-grand-Afghanistan-circa-1985 strategy seems to be working. This does not vindicate the view so much as point to the effect that such skepticism has on strategies available to a democratically constrained sovereign. "Seems to be working" means, in my opinion, being emasculated by political concerns when, for exmaple, al-Sadr claims he's a rival for sovereignty in nascent Iraq and heads a bunch of blackshirts better slaughtered from the air en masse than brokered with. But that wouldn't play too well on the telly eh?

Personally, I think it's a case of wishful thinking, rather like "there're no KGB in Nicaragua." Even if such a theory were true in this case, it is impossible for me personally to be satisfied with the strategic result that would occur if the jihadis were left to their revolution - and this beyond the moral concerns of abandoning 300 million muslims to their deprivations. (The Taliban my interlocutors are apparently unimpressed by.) Beyond the Phony War considerations brought up Wretchard in a great earlier post, I think this is also the view of most anti-WOT Europeans (or at least it was; don't hear muchout of them since the French riots and Merkel's elevation, eh?).

Just thought I'd throw that out there in view of your assertions in your long Rome post.

2/15/2006 07:18:00 PM  
Blogger Ash said...

babalharb,

It seems that he not only had dinner (and a cocktail) but the Sheriff's deputy was turned away from the usual and customary chat with the shooter and had to wait until the next day.

desert rat wrote:

"Still bow hunt from time to time, but shooting animals at distance is not that high on my list of fun things to do."

I read somewhere that the quail were pen raised just for a hunt.

Doug,

You will notice 4 rules in the Texas Wildlife and Game 10 commandments attempting to guide hunters not to shoot their companions (or any other human)

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/learning/hunter_education/shotsafe.phtml

2/15/2006 07:20:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/international/international-korea-north-kim.html

Meanwhile how hilarious-terrifying must this event been?

I wonder if they rolled out Mr. Potato-Head, savior of the people.

2/15/2006 07:21:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

This story was posted at threatswatch, but the link was to an empty page, a little Google and...
The tehran times .com

" ... Turkey to build first nuclear plant on Black Sea

ANKARA (Reuters) -- Turkey has decided to build its first nuclear power plant at Sinop on the Black Sea coast, energy officials said on Tuesday.

"The prime minister's office and the energy ministry have decided to build the nuclear plant at Sinop, taking into account such factors as geological faultlines and cooling water," an energy official told Reuters. ... "

They wouldn't let US disembark, but now they want nuclear capacity, also?

consider the source
From reuters, via Tehran

2/15/2006 07:24:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

ash,
Quail are sometimes raised for that purpose. The lady that owned the ranch said this was not the case, there.

They could and often do just spread a little feed, for the naturally occuring quail.

The covies expand quickly when well fed and watered. After a generation, or ten, the hunting is all about the shooting, not the stalking.
Though it is fun to watch a good dog work

2/15/2006 07:36:00 PM  
Blogger Ardsgaine said...

bobalharb,

So we're back to tearing the book in half. No one said the Jews lacked gumption. They're God's chosen people, so they knew they had the right to kick butt. They didn't even have to justify it by arguing self-defense. It's us gentiles who have the problem. The message we got was to love our neighbor, to forgive our enemies, and to rejoice in our persecution. How is nuking Teheran going to fit with that?

Maybe the Israelis will do it for us, eh? Everyone join with me in a shared feeling of disgust that the world's one and only superpower should be hiding behind a country about the size of Massachussets.

2/15/2006 07:38:00 PM  
Blogger Mike H. said...

trangbang68 those two guys in France are both expats. Erik Svane link.

Ardsgaine, I had always heard that both sections were necessary, not just the old or the new. It's a balance, some times war, sometimes restraint. You pay for your selections at the exit.

2/15/2006 07:39:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Here you go, doug

" ... Despite Cheney Accident, Hunting is Safe
Anti-gun groups, political opponents, pundits and newspaper editorial writers wasted no time in criticizing Dick Cheney and the great tradition of hunting after the vice president's unfortunate hunting accident this weekend in Texas. On a quail hunt Saturday, Cheney fired his shotgun and accidently peppered a member of his hunting party with birdshot. Unreported or ignored in many news accounts is the fact that hunting accidents are not common, and that hunting ranks as a safe activity. Click here to read NSSF's Industry Intelligence Report on firearms-related accidents. ... "



These guys know better than your Texan buddies.

2/15/2006 07:39:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Gun Control Works!
Damn few firearm accidents in Hawaii.
'Course almost nobody has a gun.
Those freeway shootings in LA and the border skirmishs with our brothers to the South don't count, I guess.
---
"Firearm accidents are substantially lower
compared to the largest category of
accident occurrences
(motor vehicle).
"
---
Good to know:
I'll tell the wife to take the shotgun to Safeway, and leave the car home where it will be safe.

2/15/2006 07:57:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Mean while, down on the oil fields,

"... 2006 The Associated Press
Venezuela, Iran Create $200 Million Fund
Venezuela and Iran have begun collaborating on business projects to manufacture tractors and auto parts, and produce cement in the South American country. ... "

The link is to the Houston Chronicle, but it never finishes loading, for me.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/fn/3662186.html

The Iranian President is visiting Cuba in September, wonder who else will be at that Summit Meeting.

Time marchs on.

2/15/2006 07:58:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

It's not like back when there was a Communist Menace to worry about:
These are religious folks.
Just keep an eye out for hijacking.

2/15/2006 08:00:00 PM  
Blogger Ardsgaine said...

Dan,

If they weren't sitting on a resource that gives them a steady supply of cash with which they can supply themselves with WMD, then I think we'd all be willing to let them stew in their own hellholes. That's the only sense in which the war is about oil. The notion that we can sit over here in our isolation, buy their oil, and never get dragged into their politics is idyllic nonsense. We will always be the Great Satan, whether we keep to ourselves or not, and frankly, there's no reason why we should have to keep to ourselves. We are not obliged to respect their "right" to savagery and stagnation.

"Seems to be working" means, in my opinion, being emasculated by political concerns

Change 'political' to 'moral', and I agree 100%. The moral concerns are what give rise to the political concerns.

2/15/2006 08:01:00 PM  
Blogger sam said...

Terrorist leader sentenced to die:

The British are deploying amid fears of a Taliban resurgence in southern Afghanistan. There have been 20 suicide attacks in four months.

Last year more than 1500 people were killed in the country, the most since the regime was toppled more than four years ago.

Terrorist Leader

2/15/2006 08:04:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

About Pakistan and the General President

" ... Musharraf has increasingly been forced to divert ground forces and U.S.-supplied air power from the Afghan front and from Kashmir earthquake relief efforts to combat a bitter, little-noticed insurgency in his strategic southern coastal province of Baluchistan.

Musharraf's "other war" against the Baluch, an ethnic minority of 4.5 million, has become increasingly bloody in recent weeks. According to U.S. intelligence sources, six Pakistani army brigades, plus paramilitary forces totaling some 25,000 men, are battling Baluch Liberation Army guerrillas in the Kohlu mountains and surrounding areas. The independent Pakistan Human Rights Commission has reported "indiscriminate bombing and strafing" by 20 U.S.-supplied Cobra helicopter gunships and four squadrons of fighter planes, including U.S.-supplied F-16 fighter jets, resulting in 215 civilian dead and hundreds more wounded, many of them women and children. ... "

" ... At present, most Baluch leaders do not call for independence. They are ready to settle for the provincial autonomy envisaged in the 1973 Pakistani constitution, which successive military regimes, including the present one, have nullified. What the Baluch, Sindhis and a third, more assimilated ethnic minority, the Pushtuns, want above all is an end to blatant economic discrimination by the dominant Punjabis. ... "
WaPo
Pakistan's Costly 'Other War'

2/15/2006 08:16:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Only 4.5 million of those guys.
" want above all is an end to blatant economic discrimination by the dominant Punjabis"
...they enjoyed lording it over Blacks in So Africa, also.
---
Damned uppity Punjabis, got their "modern" (backwards) ways in California now too:
The earlier Punjabi settlers in Calif don't like dealing with them either:

The descendants of the Punjabi pioneers now avoid the Sikh Parade. They still hold their annual Christmas dance, but its character has changed. The dance has broadened its constituency to include all who went to school with the founders of the dance in Yuba City; it is now called the Old-Timers’ Dance and the organizing committee is primarily Mexican-American. In 1988 only two of the eight organizers and about one-tenth of those attending were descendants of Punjabis or related to them by marriage.
The theme was Hawaiian, with “Aloha” written on a banner above the band platform. The invitation began, “Hello/Ohio/Buenos Dias,” emphasizing cultural pluralism and the claim to be American.

Those who attended this rousing evening with its lively band and delicious Mexican dinner did tell stories about the pioneer couples, mimicking the broken English of the men from India, but the dance itself was a thoroughly American affair, albeit with a Mexican-American tinge.

Spanish-Pakistani descendants do not like the practice of gender segregation instituted by the new immigrants from Pakistan, and the old Sikhs and their descendants find new practices in the Sikh temple similarly objectionable.

Moola Singh gives a vivid description of the changes and his reaction to them:
I went with my wife one time to Stockton, where they have lots of chairs in back. Me and my wife, we got a couple of chairs, we sat in the back. “All right man, sit on the floor, all right man, sit on the floor,” someone said to us. I don’t care, people like that, people from India, why not have a church like other churches in this country?
These India people are damn fools.
Why have a church like before, why sit on the floor, why have no chairs, why have nothing?
Today, it’s different, twenty or fifty years have passed and today it’s different.
California's Punjabi Mexican American

2/15/2006 10:11:00 PM  

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