Wednesday, February 22, 2006

Disappointment in Samarra

The Stupid Shall be Punished posts on the destruction of the al Askariya mosque in Samarra, Iraq, probably as a result of sectarian violence.

Before After

The Daily Telegraph has this report:

"Gunmen entered the shrine at dawn and planted bombs and blew it up," Abdullah al-Jubaara, deputy governor of Salaheddine Province which includes Samarra.

In a statement, Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, Iraq's foremost Shi'ite cleric, called for protests following the blast. He also demanded seven days of mourning over the destruction of the shrine, where two revered Shi'ite imams are buried.

Iraq's prime minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari declared three days of mourning after the attack, which he described as an attack on all Muslims.

A resident of Samarra said people had started to gather for a demonstration.

The complex is one of the holiest Shi'ite shrines in Iraq. Today's explosion is the third attack on a prominent Shi'ite target in as many days.

Most readers following Iraq the Model will know that the negotiations to form a government of national unity are going very slowly. Michael Totten in Kurdistan is suggesting that the Kurds are pulling up stakes and leaving the Sunnis and Shi'ites to duke it out.

Iraq may not survive in one piece. The overwhelming majority of Iraqi Kurds are packing their bags. Most have already said goodbye. Erbil (Hawler in Kurdish) is the capital of the de-facto sovereign Kurdistan Regional Government. Baghdad is thought of as the capital of a deranged foreign country.

In January 2005 the Iraqi Kurds held an informal referendum. More than 80 percent turned out to vote. 98.7 percent of those voted to secede from Iraq. Not only have the Kurds long dreamed of independence, when they look south they see only Islamism, Baathism, blood, fire, and mayhem.


We'll know pretty soon whether there's enough will in Iraq to make it work even nominally as one country.


Anonymous Anonymous said...

What a shame it will be if the country degenerates into chaos. But if it does, we need to get out and watch it burn.

We tried.

2/22/2006 02:29:00 AM  
Blogger Ticker said...

They've declared a three day period for mourning -- but more likely to buy time. The destruction of the mosque has two effects, but which will predominate remains to be seen. First, it will jolt the haggling politicos into realizing they've got three days to come up with a government of national unity. Second, it will make the Shi'ites mad as hell.

So it's probably a footrace between the dealmakers and drumbeaters of war. The thing is the political parties have a lot invested in a government. If a full-bore civil war breaks out then the prize slips from their grasp. But an all-out civil war probably isn't possible for so long as US forces prevent the influx of mass quantities of weapons and ammo. For war you need logistics and civil wars are no exception.

If external (read Saudi and Syrian) forces sponsored this attack to prevent Iran from obtaining control over Iraq by the ballot it will get complicated. Maybe that's another reason for the three days of mourning. To figure out just who the masterminds of this attack were.

I'm only guessing but that mosque was probably guarded by Shi'ite security. So whatever took it down was better than the mosque guard force. Just speculating.

2/22/2006 02:42:00 AM  
Blogger Ticker said...

The World War 4 Report(it's a serious site, honestly) says:

"There is really a three-way civil war underway throughout the Islamic world. The three inter-related conflicts are: 1.) Sunni v. Shia, 2.) fundamentalism v. secularism, and 3.) national liberation v. imperialism. The sad irony is that it is the social iniquities that underly this last contradiction that provide the raw material of endemic rage—which is increasingly exploited, siphoned off as it were, into the prior two. Fundamentalists conflate secularism and imperialism (given a propaganda boost by their neocon enemies, who do likewise), and pose the only alternative as a purified, hegemonic Islam which must, of course, crush internal heresy."

2/22/2006 02:52:00 AM  
Blogger Karensky said...

Whit, and we can watch the burning from Sulimaniya. It is becoming more and more evident that Totten is on to something. With the support of Syria, SA and Iran it seems that the Sunni factions and AQ guys are getting enough support to push the civil war. Iran cannot allow an alternative Shiite leadership to usurp their percieved position of authority while the mad mullahs of SA cannot allow those filthy Shiia to get big heads.
Kurdistan will have to set up their defacto country quietly so that Turkey won't crush them. Over time they can siphon off their Syrian, Turkish and Iranian territories when the whole damn ME implodes. Too bad the Harvard A and S crowd won't understand what is going on.

2/22/2006 03:10:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Maybe this 3-way war must be allowed to happen. Lately, I been thinking we should just step back and let the games begin.

My big concern is the smoldering, radioactive craters.

As far as Iraq goes, it's up to Joe Iraqi.

2/22/2006 03:11:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


I agree. The regional powers have no interest in a successful Iraq. There seem to be too many fools involved for common sense to prevail. It wouldn't surprise me, if the Iranians were behind this.

But if Sistani can keep a lid on Shia anger...

2/22/2006 03:20:00 AM  
Blogger Karensky said...

Joe Iraqi, as Iraq the Model calls him, the simple people, will have a lot of heavy lifting in the next few years. I would not be suprised if good ol Mooky had his hand in this destruction.

Why he is still casting a shadow I'll never know.

2/22/2006 03:25:00 AM  
Blogger Karensky said...

Sistani has a fourth war, if you will, Whit. His war is with his fellow Mullahs in Qom. Quite the bit or irony. Sistani is a native Persian while the head Mad Mullah of Iran is a native iraqi.

Watching the Cartoon Caper unfold across the globe I cannot help but think that the Wahabis in SA are fomenting a meltdown. It would be fortunate for us all if the Iraq experiment paid dividends by succeeding while the world wide jihad started to focus on Mecca.

2/22/2006 03:30:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It could be maverick operators Joe Baathist and his son Joe, jr.

Too many suspects in this part of the world.

2/22/2006 03:32:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Good to know the enlightened, light handed treatment by the Brits produced such great results.

But we outdid them in spades by giving Sadr free reign while we gave "the insurgency" time to build, unmolested.

Those that mourned every bullet hole in a bomb filled Mosque, and were willing to let our Marines die instead are having their day in the sun.

History Ended is History Just Begun.

2/22/2006 04:20:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

Free Kurdistan!

the Suns vrs the Shits has been going on since old Mo's grandkids couldnt play nice in the sand box

Wow, someone's holy site got destroyed...

Amazing when an islamic site is destroy the call for 3 days of mourning goes out, when the palestinians completely destroyed Josephs tomb not a word from the world....

The goal of going to iraq was to stop them from being an international menace, that has been accomplished.. If they wish to kill one another locally that is their islamic freedom of speech

pass the rinds, man does the show get better DAILY..

cartoon wars, suicide funeral bombings, and now mosque bombing....

whats next? Euro-style football with your enemy's head?

2/22/2006 04:23:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

How and where does Sistani stay alive?

2/22/2006 04:25:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

2/22/2006 04:35:00 AM  
Blogger Unknown said...

I wouldn't call it sectarian violence. Religion is a facade, a flag, for what essentially is an ethnic tribal conflict. Ancient Israel tried to solve this problem by uniting different tribes under a one god bureaucracy. Later when that failed, a one king bureaucracy was tried. As time passes such arrangements tend to dissolve when territorial squabbles erupt.

In the case of Israel, it’s not coincidental that the only tribes that cared to maintain the old bureaucratic identity alive were the tribes in charge of maintaining that bureaucracy. That is, the tribes of Judah and Levy. The rest walked away.

A more in depth analysis of what's going on in Iraq should look to see who the shiia really are ethnically, likewise as regards the sunni.

2/22/2006 04:53:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Vying for the Stupid Prize:

2/22/2006 04:54:00 AM  
Blogger enscout said...

While the new Iraqi constitution calls on Islam to be the National religion - that no law shall be adopted that is incompatible to it....

If we can't facillitate change to this, to strike it from the text, we will have lost one of the first major battles in the War.

2/22/2006 05:00:00 AM  
Blogger PeterBoston said...

20 more carrier groups and "Let them all eat cake" has its appeal.

2/22/2006 05:00:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Now I KNOW he's a dentist.
Been lookin at snouts so long he thinks...

2/22/2006 05:08:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Hey, Mika, your damned Jooish Comment just disappeared, again!
...the one about Porks 12 inch "Snout"
Go back to a real Browser, go Gentile!

2/22/2006 05:12:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

(when in Rome, etc)

2/22/2006 05:12:00 AM  
Blogger Unknown said...

Doug, when in the jungle I go Safari.

2/22/2006 05:20:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Wozniak was Jooish?
At any rate, I think you should re-post that in visible type.
Otherwise it will look like I'm daydreaming about 12 inch snouts.

2/22/2006 05:27:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Probably give me nightmares.
Auf Wiedersehen

2/22/2006 05:31:00 AM  
Blogger Unknown said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

2/22/2006 05:34:00 AM  
Blogger Unknown said...

Doug, maybe you just yen for jooish king truffles.

2/22/2006 06:21:00 AM  
Blogger goesh said...

Islam is a religion of peace.

2/22/2006 06:31:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Anyone with 20/20 vision could see this coming. From before the Invasion.
The US, when it did
Not pick a side.
Not defeat the Iraqi Insurgents.
Not secure the Iraqi Borders.
Not Declare Victory when it HAD been achieved,
And by being ever more indesisive,
our Actions have led to this.

Even here at Belmont, Club members begin to favor "Cut and Run".

An inept Officer Corps, in the US Military, has led US to this ever more sorry outcome.
For to long we have been fearful of Victory in the halls of the Pentagon.
The entire Dept of Defense, it's thinking is well, never Offensive.
Which may well be why we "manage" conflicts and no longer Win Wars.

Time to scrap the DoD and return to a War Department.
Time to go "Back to the Future", to when Performance counted, not empty Rhetoric.

Why not Osama?
Now that he is unassailable by US Military, I hear how"unimportant" he is, was and how he will be "inconsequential" in the future.

Empty excuses, made by Losers.
Time for a new Team America, one that will fight America's battles, not "manage battlespace" to achieve stalemates.

2/22/2006 06:33:00 AM  
Blogger Unknown said...

Since at least the 1930s, successive Iraqi administrations have attempted to change the ethnic make-up of northern Iraq by expelling Kurds, Turkomans, and Assyrians from their homes and repopulating the areas with Arabs moved from central and southern Iraq. Arabization first occurred on a massive scale in the second half of the 1970s, following the creation by the Iraqi government of an autonomous zone in parts of Iraqi Kurdistan. During that period, some 250,000 Kurds and other non-Arabs were expelled from a huge swath of northern Iraq, ranging from Khanaqin on the Iranian border all the way to Sinjar on the Syrian-Turkish border were forcibly displaced. These comprised entire families, including women and children. Simultaneously, the Iraqi government brought in landless Arabs and their families from the nearby al-Jazeera desert to farm the former Kurdish lands. The land titles of the Kurds and other non-Arabs were invalidated. The land was declared government land, but was leased on annual contracts only to the new Arab farmers. However, they did not receive freehold title to the lands.

In 1988, the Iraqi government launched the Anfal campaign against the Kurds, killing some 100,000 Kurds and destroying many of their villages, which left hundreds of thousands of Kurds homeless. Although the aims of the Anfal campaign was not Arabization-the aim was genocide-in its aftermath Kurds were not allowed to return to their destroyed villages. Their property rights, too, were invalidated, and Arabs were brought to settle and farm some of their lands.

The policy of Arabization continued right up to the fall of Saddam Hussein's government in April 2003. Kurds and other non-Arabs in Kirkuk faced constant harassment, and were forced to choose between immediate expulsion or joining the Ba`th Party, changing their ethnic identity (commonly referred to as "nationality correction") to Arab, and "volunteering" for paramilitary forces such as the Jerusalem Army (Jaysh al-Quds). Families who refused to comply were issued expulsion orders requiring them to leave their homes and were then expelled to the Kurdish-controlled areas. The government of Iraq expelled approximately 120,000 persons from Kirkuk and other areas under Iraqi government control during the 1990s in furtherance of its Arabization policies. Arabs were encouraged to settle in the north through financial incentives and subsidized home prices.

This is all very recent history. There are many much older grievances to settle.

2/22/2006 06:36:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

ot newflash:

Iran extends its sponsorship of terrorists to Hamas, promising training facilities for Palestinians - on top of generous support for Abu Musab al Zarqawi’s Iraqi fighters

what is the importance of this since iran has supported PA/PLO terrorism for decades?

Since they admit it, they can deduct all said expenses on their w-2s!

2/22/2006 06:44:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

As Mr Limbaugh says, words matter.
Defense or War, there is a difference, don't ya know.

Semantics, ain't they grand!

Defense rarely wins the game.
The Longer the game, the less likely for Defense to prevail.

A "long bomb" will eventually be completed, the reception made and the points scored.

Or the Opponent could settle for less.

Death by a thousand cuts, no individual slice worthy of response.
But in a Long Game, you'll bleed, to death.

Time for a "Course Correction",
we've run aground.

2/22/2006 06:47:00 AM  
Blogger Unknown said...


I’m with you. But.

We’re in a middle of a grand experiment. Personally, I don’t believe much will come of it. We’re now about 2/3 along into it. There’s not much left to go and see this experiment to its conclusion. With so much already invested, wouldn’t it be prudent to take a wait and see attitude?

2/22/2006 07:00:00 AM  
Blogger Dan said...

Buchananism is the specter of the Club these days.

Rat, it's pretty obvious we can't attack Pakistan without making the situation about 1000 times worse, so I think that particular target should be moved to the backburner. A cartoon-inspired thug parade can shutdown Karachi and Islamabad. Imagine what a post-war Pakistan, 150 million strong, would look like. Imagine the Islamic flood. I'd rather not.

But Iraq will not survive at all unless we do something about Iran and find a way to suck the fever out of the House of Saud. We this would be beyond us is a puzzle. I'd like to hear it a little more transperantly in the Senate, among other places.

2/22/2006 07:04:00 AM  
Blogger sonia said...

Splitting Iraq along those lines is the only possible solution to the conflict.

2/22/2006 07:11:00 AM  
Blogger CatoRenasci said...

Is it only because it is so obvious that no one has commented here that this is probably an Iranian-back operation, maybe with Zaqarwi and maybe not?

While it benefits the insurgents, and helps split Sunnis and Shiites, one has to remember that there is deep rivaly between the Iranian and Iraqi Shiite mullahs for supremacy in Shiism. For the Iranians, who take this seriously, the attack is a two-fer: hit at the Great Satan the US and the Lesser Satan Sistani.

2/22/2006 07:12:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Start with Tomorrow's grievence and work back, mika.

If the more Historic Grievence is reached, after tomorrow's is settled, and the current grievences, the ones that have living victims, not mystic communal memories, should be addressed.

No land claims from prehistory, no abstract of title that goes back to creation.

We live in the present, may have a chance to inhabit the future, but the past, only the dead reside there... gone but not, unfortunately in some situations, forgotten.

2/22/2006 07:13:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

For the Iranians, who take this seriously, the attack is a two-fer: hit at the Great Satan the US and the Lesser Satan Sistani.

to understand islam is to understand that "apostates" are far WORSE than infidels or other people of the book...

the shits verses the suns is a BLOOD fight... both CLAIM to be the one true PATH of the Prophet....

Maybe it's time for these different groups agree on the basic ethical constructs of islam and create a united ethical islam?


Pass the rinds, it's going to be entertaining, I am GLAD i can run my diesel on canola oil when ME oil is radioactive....

I have always said, the 1st place an Iranian nuke would hit is NOT israel, but Saudia Arabia

2/22/2006 07:15:00 AM  
Blogger Handsome Hu said...

For certain, the history of Iraq so far has shown that democracy is more complicated than mere voting; its success is embodied in a tradition that is manifest from democratic norms.

These norms must replace traditional binary heuristics (U R Shia? OMG plz die k?) that seem to dominate what passes for Shia and Sunni ethnic identity. One of these new norms would be "you're an Iraqi first, then a Shia or Sunni etc". In the book, the Metaphysical Club, Louis Menand makes the point that a new political philosophy was born, one which propagated quite well as a result of the trauma of the civil war (which did not spare many intellectuals who had the gruesome distinctions of serving as medics).

The northern intellectuals who had been so certain of the righteousness of their cause saw the baffling carnage it produced. In a phrase, menand claims that the experience persuaded american political philosophy away from the declaration of independence and towards the constitution. Practical administration trumped idealistic pursuits for utopia.

The brutality produced a correction factor that may be essential to policing a democracy - that there is no democracy without a monopoly of violence and that this monopoly of violence is best not ever used, the better for people to intractably squabble for an entire political term and than try again at voting booths.

The solution here may be a brutal showing of force by the nascent government (analagous perhaps to gangs of NY ;-D ), perhaps with the US voicing opposition, but with the leaders of Iraq publically laying out the distinct IRAQI rules of what was previously a Shia and Sunni game. It doesnt need to be anything grand. Infact the shorter the better, probably, so long as an obvious and unequivocal monopoly on violence is demonstrated, and press theatrics create in the public mind that the Iraqi tribe is stronger, and will only get stronger, and sectarian alignments will mean being maligned to this Iraqi tribe. my $.02

2/22/2006 07:17:00 AM  
Blogger Unknown said...

..the past, only the dead reside there.

So let's burn the history books and be done with it.

2/22/2006 07:19:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

But then again, mika, history is what sets the stage.

There is no Oil in Pakistan.
A War there does not upset the "World Spice Flows"
Pakistan is where the "Back" of the Mohammedans resides.
"Break" it, the "Movement" will be set back. Far more than frittering with Iran, when the Enemy, by Law, is Wahhabist aQ terrorists, not Iran.

If we attack Iran, our Armies will be drawn and streched, to quartering, I do not know.

But there could be no other play, after Iran. We WOULD be fully extended. Just holding the Iranian Oil fields and Iraq.

If it is about US Oil addiction, take the Saudis, just steal it, like any good addict would do.

Fully defendable in a "liberal" Court. An addict stealing from the Pusher, what's the beef there?

2/22/2006 07:24:00 AM  
Blogger Karridine said...

It may not 'degenerate into chaos' but I'm reading a lot of opinion that says, "Kurdistan is ON ITS OWN!"

Emrika won't fight to keep the Kurds IN a losing, second-rate, semi-autonomous setup...

The day they hang Saddam, Kurds go it alone!

2/22/2006 07:29:00 AM  
Blogger Unknown said...

An addict stealing from the Pusher, what's the beef there?

Only you’re not the only addict. As I said previously, your solution is a WW1/WW2 solution. Been there, done that.

2/22/2006 07:32:00 AM  
Blogger PeterBoston said...

Fighting wars and growing nations is messy, contentious and unpredictable? Who knew?

2/22/2006 07:36:00 AM  
Blogger Dan said...

We can't "break" Pakistan: the place is a hive. Who knows how they keep it together under Musharaf; it's probably pure barbarian sloth and incompetence. It's already broken in the way you describe; it could not be more docile. The tribal areas, however - perhaps someone should draw up a rule that if you have nuclear weapons, and you have tribes, those tribes must be absolutely beaten into search terrified submission of the government and mainstream nation. Time for the tribes to come in. The world is moving.

2/22/2006 07:40:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

30 percent of our entire diesel can be replaced by soy, olive, canola oils

this usage would DESTROY the addiction on ME oil...

not talking about ethanol

I am talking about STRAIGHT oil from the grocery to the tank, (add some diesel or kerosene for thinning)

only drawback? 10 degree weather, needs to be thinned....

but no one wants to hear this, they just want cheap ME oil

everytime I buy my canola oil from the supermarket I KNOW i am screwing the arabs and oil companies...

In fact, you could take pork rinds, fry them in lard and then USE THE USED LARD (once processed) as diesel fuel...

the diesel engine was designed to run on PEANUT OIL!

2/22/2006 07:44:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Wouldn't it be held to be the Pushers fault?
We would play the victim, on Al-Hura, our Washington DC based Arabic News Channel. No bad News allowed on the Channel.
There is no War on Al-Hura, either. Just successful Muslims living in the US, watching wonderful fireworks displays, celebrating "Freedom".

But al-Jeezera is trusts 5 to 1 over Al-Hura, on the Arab street.

No time for an analog Moby Dick, in the digital age. No matter the improved "quality" of analog. I still have a turntable, it's just not hooked up.

I have not heard lately, is it safe to drive from the Airport to the "Green Zone" in Baghdad?
It's been three years, I'd like to hope so, but Mr Michael Totten's driver and translator both thought it would be suicide to drive around Baghdad.

The main challenge to your idea, kinch, is that the Iraqi Government does not have a Monopoly of Force in the Country.

Even when US capabilities are factored in, they do not. To many Militias and private Armies.
So just how destructive would the ISF have to be and more importantly, against what faction would they deploy?

2/22/2006 07:45:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

then porker,
move to Georgia, over there by the Carter place in Plains and get to growin'.

Have at it, amigo.

Az Law mandates an ethanol mix of some sort, makes Gas cost a bit more, stink a bit worse.
Air pollution control, there is to much dust in the air, from the desert, so we have to burn a special mix of Fuels.
A Federal Kyoto, that makes as much sense.

2/22/2006 07:52:00 AM  
Blogger Dan said...

I wonder if they can disabuse the Iraqi Arabs of the idea that handing in their AK47s would not actually be like handing in their schwanzes.

This has been a problem not only for the British but for every subsequent government and is the thing that ensures mass-murdering dictatorship - if you know arresting ten cousins of one tribe will start a feud, why not just kill them all outright and have done with it?

So Iraqi Arms Control should be a major initiative of the government. Besides, I doubt whether it's an "Arab" trait so much as a degenerate Iraqi trait, so this is a great time to address it.

2/22/2006 07:53:00 AM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Everybody's hanging the crepe. The logic would seem to be, the mosque blow was done by its security force, at Iranian behest, as part of their Bomb campaign. To make some look away from the Bomb, to make others scared to cross the Mullahs. In fact, this is so obvious it probably isn't true.

2/22/2006 07:56:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

desert rat said...

Az Law mandates an ethanol mix of some sort, makes Gas cost a bit more, stink a bit worse.
Air pollution control, there is to much dust in the air, from the desert, so we have to burn a special mix of Fuels.
A Federal Kyoto, that makes as much sense.

Mr Rat,

you are confused...

i am talking about DIESEL, not gasoline replacement.

Using vegetable oil REDUCES emissions and pollution, that is why in mines they use veggie oil instead of diesel to run generators.

there is NO epa issues if you spill it on the ground, it is NOT toxic and it is easy to produce from soy, peanuts, corn etc...

dont need to move, i live in OHIO, however I CANT buy it in bulk!

As for stink, my diesel benz has a nice french fried potato smell

2/22/2006 08:01:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

If you deTribalize Pakistan, you'll have "broken" it.
It is, as you say a "requirement" of Civilization.

The US was on the winning side, and has sailed on quite well, thank you, in the aftermath of WWI & WWII.
Let those that lose, or live in untenable positions worry about our potential for Violence.
I do not.
The addicts of the World can just divvy up the stash, after the Dealer's dead.

Those are the two options for solving the Mohammedan Challenge, without Total War. Neither involve Iran.
Iraq has it's Democratic Government, it can stand with it's Army. Our Job there, well past done.
It is time for aQ, the place is not Iran, but Pakistan. Where Dr Z and Osama have Sanctuary. Where we pay "Tribute" to the General President so Osama can be kept "quiet".

Wahhabists attacked US, not Iran.

2/22/2006 08:02:00 AM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Pakistan up there on that Chinee border, Rat--

2/22/2006 08:05:00 AM  
Blogger MDubiel said...

Maybe the model of a forced democracy/repbulic is incorrect?

This entire region is made up of familial clans with very specific internal traditions and Islamic law, which is very much open to interpretation (renderings of Mohammad being just one - Sharia is not universally interpretred in unanimity, nor cast in stone)

The true model for Iraq may be Somolia. See this article for a better way that lets us leave immediately:

Does it make sense to try to force a system on anyone? Would we tolerate it?

We call Saudi Arabia or Syria a country, but they are more akin to a family run corporation. Real freedom in the middle east may look more like chaos to us, but it seems to be working in Somalia and there are many cultural parallels in the Middle-East.

The presumption that Iraqi's or any Middle-Easterner is more bound by religion, be it Shia or Sunni is absurd. Think about Americans. We choose to be bound as we see fit, but family most often comes first. How many people will abandon their families for a new religion or way of life. It happens, but rarely.

The best possible model for Iraq may be familial, tribal and traditional.

2/22/2006 08:08:00 AM  
Blogger Unknown said...

C’mon d’Rat. The Russians and Chinese are just as greedy a bunch as a bunch of capitalist pigs. In the age of Atomic weapons, you’ll send us all to the slaughter haus.

2/22/2006 08:11:00 AM  
Blogger Unknown said...

Larsen: Pakistan up there on that Chinee border, Rat--

Exactly. Let the barbarians keep ‘em in check.

2/22/2006 08:15:00 AM  
Blogger Dan said...

The Chinese'll have them sending more bombs our way, and with a greater strategic clue than before.

Stick with Iraq. Only genocide will solve the Pakistan problem. Prevent nukes from spreading to Iran and you keep the nuclear hysteria out of the Middle East for a while longer.

2/22/2006 08:22:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Then let US come home.

If the Challenges to great, the Opponents to strong, or large or smart. If we are to far from home, like Alexander, let US come home.
If we cannot chase down and behead the killer of thousands of US, let US admit it, at least to ourselves, and come Home.

We've done it before, come home defeated. The Department of Defense, has not won a real War, yet. I doubt arresting the President of the City State of Panama, a US Colonial outpost, counts as a War.

The Western Hemisphere should be more than enough for US to manage.

2/22/2006 08:26:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Defending Tyrants and Despots, all in the name of Stability.
No wonder Mr Bush has had such a hard time.
His proponents do not even believe in his message of Liberty and Freedom, why should anyone else?

In KSA and Pakistan the US suppoerts Tyrants and Dictators.
But oh, we shed US Blood for Iraqi's purple fingers.
Why in Iraq is Democracy to be installed, while in Pakistan Costitutions are flushed, Freedoms are violated, Nuclear Weapons are Proliferated and our Enemies find milk and honey.

Defend the indefenseable with cries of Stability, sounds a lot like Dr Kissinger and the Saudis still wave the baton. The US is playiing their tune, right on key.

2/22/2006 08:34:00 AM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Rat--it's not just a question of neutralizing Hugo and becoming Oceania. It's also the fact that Saudi light is magnitudes cheaper to put into a PRC jet fighter's gas tank than any other fuel source on the planet. If we let the global allocation-by-market collapse, whoever ends up with the Persian Gulf will outproduce Oceania in no time.

Good that McCain is a Navy man.

2/22/2006 08:39:00 AM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

We here in USA can't imagine a hostile having an economy our own size producing a military our own size, and operating without all this bothersome democracy foolishness.

2/22/2006 08:42:00 AM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

And, as if Brazil wouldn't throw in with the strong horse as soon as it comes into the clear. And India ain't no fool, either.

2/22/2006 08:46:00 AM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Breaking eggs is one thing, but having to put 'em back together again is a whole different matter. Ask Humpty Dumpty.

2/22/2006 08:49:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

All the more reason to define the real Enemy and Win the War.

The continued stalemate situation, with high costs guarenteed by turmoil across the production belt, only serves our opponents well.
Each day US and Europe bleed a little more.
Culturally, Economicly, in Resolve and Spirit.
In Boston, an Editor of an "cutting edge" newspaper admitted FEAR was making Editorial decisions, here at Home.

Iraq had been ruled by a Monopoly of Force, by Saddam.
Today the Force is so divested, the toothpaste is not about to return to the tube.

There will be, at some point, payback for the years of abuse the Shia of Iraq have taken from the Tribe of Saddam. No matter how long we stay. Ask mika, he harbours grievences thousands of years old, as does porker and C4.

2/22/2006 08:58:00 AM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

America has exactly two things to offer the world: "Lifestyle" (a good offering on the right, or Constitution side, not so good on the left, or Hollywood side) and "Order" (which is the offering that can and is being devalued by the AQ/International left combine).

As far as our economic-efficiency model, it's no longer proprietary, the world has it--as we wanted, so it could feed itself.

2/22/2006 08:59:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

When you break the eggs, buddy, whisk briskly and add hot sause and jalapenos,enough so that no one notices how spoiled and rotten those eggs really were.
Truth was they were cracked, long before the made it to the kitchen.

2/22/2006 09:03:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

" ... We remain uncomfortable with Islamabad's nuclear arsenal, yet we've managed to overlook it in the greater interest (to us) of pursuing the Long War, a k a the Global War on Terror. Given its blind commitment to Riyadh, the Clinton administration even suppressed field reports of Saudi backing for Pakistan's nuclear program in the mid-'90s. ... "

From the NY Post by RALPH PETERS

2/22/2006 09:13:00 AM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

yet those thousand year old grievances are carried forward by people who were born clean-slate babies.

2/22/2006 09:23:00 AM  
Blogger Unknown said...


It's not always necessary to have a hot war to enable a shift in alliances. We are winning this thing. Our list of allies is growing, our rival's list is shrinking. Breaking up the Jihadi Empire, whether sunni or shiia, is to our advantage. Same for breaking up the Soviet/Russian Empire, Chinese Empire, etc. Democracy is a good tool for that. But it may not work everywhere. In some places we'll need to back the use of force to dismantle enemy strongholds. Iraq, Iran, Hamastan, immediately come to mind. You just need to have more patience. To everything a time and season.

2/22/2006 09:23:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The AP reported this am:
Shiite leaders called for calm, but militants attacked Sunni mosques and a gunfight broke out between Shiite militiamen and guards at the offices of a Sunni political party in Basra. About 500 soldiers were sent to Sunni neighborhoods in Baghdad to prevent clashes between Shiites and Sunnis, Army Capt. Jassim al-Wahash said.

A leading Sunni politician, Tariq al-Hashimi, said 29 Sunni mosques had been attacked nationwide. He urged clerics and politicians to calm the situation "before it spins out of control."

2/22/2006 09:27:00 AM  
Blogger Starling said...

Today's destruction of the al Askariya mosque is a barbaric act and worthy of condemnation. It is also an odd event, at least for me, especially when I consider that on several occasions in the last few weeks I have been told that Islam respects other religions. This is why, I was also told, adherents of other faiths and creeds should accord Islam the same respect. This is why, I was assured, the Danish cartoons were so offensive: they mocked Islam in a way that Islam never does to others.

Each time I heard this argument, I have waited for the other shoe to drop, yet it never does. No one ever mentions the fact that Islam has a hard time respecting Islam. No one thinks I and other observers know that Islam is, in so many ways, a house divided against itself.

Setting aside Islam's espoused respect for other religions, it is still implausible that an outsider, seeing all the sectarian violence between Islam's two main branches, can believe that outsiders could ever be respected more than co-religionists. He who spills his own brother's blood would never do better by me.

2/22/2006 09:31:00 AM  
Blogger Bonnie said...

Desert Rat, you need a glass of whiskey thrown in your face and a good shot across the chops.

That's what we do for hysteria, when things get a bit tough and the weak ones want to cut and run. (Or when one is poisoned in a Shanghai Bar and a blonde in a red dress has the antidote in her cleavage.)

Honestly, your puling is getting on my nerves. War is a messy business and we are engaged in it fully. Our military is doing an incredible job that moves under the radar of the bad-news press. Play some games of chess, for heaven's sake. Check out some strategy games. Study history and not from sound-bites or Spielberg films.

Kurdistan might be an excellent new country and a solid ally. Iraq's chaos might bring us right into the heart of Iran and help us bring down the government who wants to cleanse the world with nuclear fire. Syria is not just for breakfast for our special forces.

From my armchair, I know that I do not know everything. Please be aware of the same.

Now smack yourself, hard, and cease that chin quivering.

2/22/2006 09:32:00 AM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Re Ralph Peters--whom I believe in--and against my anti-Clinton principle, ya gotta admit that Wahabbism disguised itself quite well for many years as an adjunct of the "Israel/Palestinian conflict". Only in the very recent has it become clear that the jihad isn't really about Israel per se.

2/22/2006 09:33:00 AM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

I don't want to pile on after that Bonnie-whack, but really, there is something fundamentally out of whack with proposing on the one hand an imaginative propaganda war to win hearts-and-minds, while at the same time trying to break the basic societal structure which as you say is thousands of years old.

I don't get it. it seems to me that we either have to try to find an accomodation--kicking ass for sure where we're attacked, but otherwise staying put and staying "measured"--which is understood intuitively by all--OR, just kill millions on millions of peasants in order to drive the bad ideas back underground (for awhile).

Or, third way, come on home and learn Mandarin.

2/22/2006 09:51:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Don't waste your whisky, bonnie, my nerve is fine.
You miss the point, I'm afraid.

Buddy is beginning to see it.
The Saudi's, they have their Nukes, parked in Pakistan.

You wonder why Tehran is nervous?

Where did the Iranians get their Nuclear Plans, from the Saudis, by way of Pakistan.
Who has set the timeline, whom has had the inititive from the '90's and before. The Wahabbists of the KSA.
Who has the best propaganda machine in the US, it is the Sauds my friends, on many levels of ownership and payola.
Ask Dr Kissinger why he did not Chair the 9-11 Commission, or George Mitchell.
Their Client lists contained the Saudi Crown Jewels.

bonnie, I've stood my ground while other ran, for ice cream.
My nerves are just fine, but after giving four years of my boys life to this endevour, he's headed south, at least 'til his six year window shuts. No need to be called back, for this kind of effort.
Waste your own time or life if you feel the need.

Me and mine, the System has gotten it's share and more.

2/22/2006 09:53:00 AM  
Blogger Handsome Hu said...


havent you made the point that force is one part of the equation of power, but that will to use that force is necessary for any sufficiently middling force to be at all, well, sufficient? If the nascent government used (with said "will") its police and its army (for sufficient numbers?), could they oust the entrenched militias and the imam's little sovereignties?

2/22/2006 10:02:00 AM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

A salute to you and your boy, Rat. I pray his safe return.

2/22/2006 10:03:00 AM  
Blogger PeterBoston said...


You got spunk but if you keep throwing whiskey around like that we'll lose our Aussie allies.

2/22/2006 10:07:00 AM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

The AQ vs House of Saud conflict--that's where I don't follow you, Rat. The pitched battles between the two--all staged?

2/22/2006 10:07:00 AM  
Blogger Red River said...

It was done by AQ to foment civil war - this has always been one of their lines of attack.

Its a last ditch effort - their Gottdamerung - to prevent their total loss in Iraq.

It could have been Sunnis or it could have been Mercs. Same result - same source.

2/22/2006 10:11:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Would the ISF attack the Sunni militia, kinch, they have in the past.

Would the ISF attack the Kurdish or Shia Militias. Hard to say.
Mr al-Sadr's 32 seats in the Government sort of precludes attacking his militia.
Wouldn't you think.

So in reality the Shia/ Kurd Government with it's majority Shia/Kurd ISF will attack the minority and hated Tribe of Saddam, Sunni. Whom have made up the majority of the native Iraqi Insurgents, up to now.

This could occur in any city in the "Sunni Triangle". Raze a city to set an example, like Hama in Syria under Papa Assad. 10,000 -15,000 dead, many casualties, more homeless. At one extreme.

I doubt we would stand by and let it happen.
On the other end, continue as we are in Ramadi. Iraqi Federals taking Civil Control of the town, street by street.
Do not hear much in the way of progress, nor regress, from Ramadi any more.

Stalemate, at least for now.

2/22/2006 10:13:00 AM  
Blogger Dave H said...

We are curiously bound by the past. Iraq is an illogical idea, as presently constituted it is doomed to be run by lunatic Imams. Anyone with sense would have allied themselves to the Kurds, they have the only grasp on logic in the whole muslim world. US military should arm and defend them while they take back the territories from Turkey, Syria and Iran. We should probably adopt Pork's ideas about fuel. To destroy the Iranian menace the only method I see is to destroy the infrastructure of Iran so that they cannot produce or export oil and thus will not be able to pay for nuclear toys. The Islamofascists need to be sent back to the 7th century, so thy can enjoy their "religion".

I am aware this won't happen. GWB seems to have lost his senses if not his nerve, his ideas were too idealistic and grandiose, he needed to be a much more charismatic leader to swing them.

2/22/2006 10:17:00 AM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Agreed, but charisma is a two-way street. GWB's stature has been undercut so badly by domestic politics that the model he holds aloft is not too inspiring.

2/22/2006 10:23:00 AM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Hard to focus on democracy as being good for what it denies, rather than for what it might produce.

2/22/2006 10:25:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Since the Mosque in Mecca take over, what piched battles?

A few shoot outs between Criminals and the cops.

Most of the time, in the KSA, the bad guys seem to get away.
Like in Yemen, a couple of weeks ago.
None of the money men have taken a fall. There was a list posted here, months ago, of the Finaciers of the Golden Chain. These folks do not live under rocks, well, not all of them.
Four or five "Princes" were exposed in a leak to the FBI.
Those Princes all met their death, prior to US questioning.

Osama's dad was the Kings right hand man, for decades.

It ain't rockket science, it is much more like bonnie says, chess.

Just where did they invent the Game, bonnie?

2/22/2006 10:26:00 AM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink.

2/22/2006 10:27:00 AM  
Blogger Dan said...

Where is it written we can't continue to shape Iraq's development, despite what pygmy al-Jafaari bleats?

The conclusion that "democracy" is the end is to yet again confuse diplo-rhetoric with reality.

2/22/2006 10:30:00 AM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

No, I wouldn't be at all surprised if AQ mounted a few attacks on itself, in KSA, for PR purposes. If AQ is running KSA, then I'd be surprised if it didn't so do.

2/22/2006 10:31:00 AM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

I guess my point is--from a realpolitik pov--every day that USA can hold together the orderly world-mkt allocation of oil, more and more transnational private enterprise links up into mutually-beneficial wealth-creating common-good-lifting deals. The race is between entropy and it's war-parties, and Joe World-Pack and the little family he's trying to provide for.

2/22/2006 10:39:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

I'd think you'd flip that buddy.
aQ is not running the KSA.
The KSA is running aQ.
A false flag planted so close to home, it is taken at face value.

Supreme deniability, makes Col North seem like a preschooler.
Even spun that most of the hijackers were Saudi, has being part of a giant aQ, Osama propaganda conspiracy.
Mrs Clinton could never figure out why her "Rightwing Conspiacy" never gained traction, while the Saudis depiction of Osama as a Supreme Propagandist had no problem. That, in retrospect is telling.

2/22/2006 10:45:00 AM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

USA is already looking the other way--publicly--on the seized Baathist docs that are understood to contain so much damning reference to the very nations we now need in order to contain the war (and, see UN Security Council vote, it's working) that maybe it is better to break down AQ bit by bit while keeping a face-saving door open for the House of Saud. The House of Saud would then be--if it *is* AQ--on notice, forever. IOW, if you're right, rat, the thing may be being won in the lowest-cost way possible.

2/22/2006 10:47:00 AM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Or, lost, in the lowest-cost way possible.

2/22/2006 10:51:00 AM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

*That's* chess, for ya.

Maybe someone will resign before kings have to be killed.

2/22/2006 10:55:00 AM  
Blogger Piercello said...

The question really seems to be whether we continue to play the game or whether it is time to kick over the table. But which table, under which of the many games we're playing?

If enough of the world comes to support our side, we are justified in continuing to sacrifice pawns and play for time. If, however, they are sneaking enemy pieces onto the board, or just handing us the rope we need to hang ourselves (we'll pull them over the edge after us with it, but they may not know that), we should at least let it be known that we are not above upsetting the board.

2/22/2006 11:30:00 AM  
Blogger Dan said...

CIA - Declassified in 1996.

"The familiar saying that "all politics is local politics" is important to understanding irregular conflicts. The politics of the Phalange party in Lebanon were, and are, largely the politics of the Gemayels. The Phalange is a political expression of one "tribal" grouping within the Christian heartland of Lebanon. This is a common phenomenon in the Third World. Aideed's "party" in Somalia was largely an expression of his clan and its allies.

In these situations sweeping political concepts like socialism, democracy, and nationalism may have no real meaning. To view Walid Jumblatt's "socialist party" in Lebanon as representing an expression of "socialism" was to misunderstand completely its motivation, role, and intentions. Jumblatt's real interest was in furthering the interests of his "tribe," the Druze.

Tribal warfare is an extension of tribal politics. These are inevitably the politics of feud, betrayal, old debts, and narrow economic advantages. While Israel and Syria played a "great game" in Lebanon, and the United States saw Syrian actions there through Cold War lenses, the Lebanese played a "little game." The Chamouns, Gemayels, and Franjiyahs killed each other to settle scores, Christian fought Christian for control of economic enterprises in Beirut, and the Druze and Christians raided each other's territory and defended their own in a pattern which was wholly Lebanese, centuries old, and obscure to outsiders. They made bad enemies and poor allies."

What the hell is with this unkillable tribalism? Maybe the only real answer is to select a few tribes with the most aniimosities and annihilate them. Or what.

2/22/2006 11:31:00 AM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

chess analogy holds--no game ends with all the pieces still on the board.

2/22/2006 11:51:00 AM  
Blogger Dan said...

We're obviously in for the long haul here; that things have apparently bogged down with Islamist machinations coming to fore in various places is precisely the reason for intervention in the first place. I realize that doesn't satisfy - especially if your kid's in uniform - the need the go in, kill a bunch of people and break their crap and leave, but unfortunately we're also pioneering a new strategic environment that constitutes an inevitable next phase of post-1914 development, and the choices are Islamism without US proximty or Islamism with US proximity, and frankly, since al-Adnalus can provide a cognizable grievance to the relevant parties, we shouldn't be so goddamn squeemish about pulling the trigger on Sadr or destroying Iran's navy in the Straights pursuant to interference in Iraq. To acquiesce to media pseudo-outrage is a sucker's game. THAT is the source of Rumsfeld's "inability to play the media game." THAT is the source of all this "war on terror," "we're going into Iraq just for WMD!" and so on and on. That was for suckers. Bush should stand up, command the global rostrum, and ask the Arabs of Iraq directly why exactly they're such a bunch of desert monkey moron squabbling parasitical ignorant gullible vicious bastards? He should ask, do you wanna live in your own shit forever? (It's been 9 centuries. 9. And that brief 200 year window wasn't their "Golden Age," it was their Only age. In that respect they're more like the Maya than "the Crusaders.")

We shouldn't lose heart at this point, but we should start to change the dynamic. Let them wail at us about unfairness. We have plenty of stuff to show off. Time to start changing the dynamic. As far as I know, no major war has ever started because of one party calling out another. To let these people - whose ignorance and vicious habitual bullshit is the entire reason for the present chaos - dominate the discussion is pure idiocy. At least let Rumsfeld say what he has to say, for God's sake.

2/22/2006 11:55:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Exactly, dan.
Which tribes in what locale?

How about those giving Sanctuary to Osama and Dr Z.

If you are going to fight a War, fight it.
If it's to tough, come home.

Wonder what Leonard Furlong would do?

2/22/2006 11:58:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Hey, Starling:
Not only is that a Dynamite Comment, but you scooped every form of media by a week about Democrats getting religion on Port Security AFTER the unions started leaning on them!
WSJ has an article, Limbaugh has increased security since being threatened, (not by Islamists, Unionists!) I'll see what links I can find.

2/22/2006 12:02:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"What the hell is with this unkillable tribalism? "
How the Hell should I know:
Just look at some of these threads over the past week!

2/22/2006 12:07:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"The KSA is running aQ."
Seize the Oilfields!
Bankrupt the Bastards.
Hold terrorism hostage.

2/22/2006 12:10:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"the model GWB holds aloft is not too inspiring."
One of those Balsa and Tissue and Nitrocellulose Models.
Everytime Algore and Bubba are on Foreign Soil, they fire a few Ground to Air Missiles.

2/22/2006 12:15:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Cannot "change the dynamic" if we have to "Stay the Course"

We are on a course to no where.
Jr's in Okinawa, goin' to Korea and comin' home, eventually.

But he is the thrid Generation of Rat to stand to, in the defense of Korea.
Gramp Rat, he was there while the blood flowed, freely.
Me, I was there for a year, knew the Plan, we'd be tripped over, most likely, if a million NorKs ever came South. They never did.
Jr, he's goin' for a few weeks, doubt if the NorKs come now, either.
It examplfies that now, after more than fifty years and three Generations, Korea is still a problem. A greater threat now than during the past thirty or forty years.
The Korean example exposes the dangers of containment and isolation. To try to contain Mohammed, would be much much more difficult.

But first and foremost, the Mohammmedan Nuclear Threat must be removed. It exists, today, in but one country, and it ain't Iran, it's Pakistan.

If, after deNuking, the General President and his Army wish to Join with US and assist as the scourge that is aQ is removed from the Earth, they are welcome.
If not, that would be up to them, wouldn't it.

2/22/2006 12:18:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

As for why we haven't capture Osama, I note that General Mladic, on the run since at least 1997, in a country "roughly the size of Kentucky" (CIA website), has still not been caught, nor Karadzic. Nor, probably, others. Perhaps a criticism fuelled by the "oh yeah where's Osama, suckass?" indignity is not aligned with reality.

But WHAT THE FUCK is this about?

Can't anyone do anything right there? Every time this guy pops up, he's bigger and worser than he was before, following exactly the Nazi rise to power. KILL HIM NOW.

2/22/2006 12:29:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

The Press of Boston have not been muzzled since the days of Thomas Paine, 'til now.

Gagged by Mohammedan extremists and threats of violence.

Never has so strong a Force Occupied our Shores, defeating our Arms and sapping our Resolve.

While the Government watches with approval. Let US limit the debate with ignorance, maybe if we're quiet, the Bad men will just go away.

Yeah, bonnie, color me frantic.

2/22/2006 12:29:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

now dan, he's just one of the marker bouys, along the Course we're Staying.

Don't get to riled up, he's got his 32 seat Bloc in the Shia Alliance, That is the largest single Bloc there is, you know.

He's the Future of Iraq, their next Andrew Jackson.

He certainly is not an Enemy, just cause his boys shot at US.
Forget about it. By gones.

He's who we freed Iraq for, dan, him and his ilk. His "group" "tribe" "clan" "sect" always was going to win an Election, from the beginning.

Bremer said as much in his book.

We stayed the course of Elections, regardless.
We gave the Secular guys a year to "prove" themselves. They were rejected, soundly, twice.

2/22/2006 12:39:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

We cannot do that thoug Rat without militarizing our country in a way not possible. Short of that, we cannot do that without a Europe unambiguously on our side, with which to bludgeon Russia, the perpetual asshole of international relations that probably should've become a Chinese country. It might be useful to get a war going between India and Pakistan so we can slip in and annihilate tribesmen - it's not like they're actually looking for Osama & AQ in Waziristan.

2/22/2006 12:42:00 PM  
Blogger Annoy Mouse said...

Read on BC yesterday that the SoK youth would vote 2 to 1 for NorK control over US hegemony. Well that kind of crystallized it for me. Let’s demand a vote in every country that receives US aid and have them put it to a vote. It would be downright wrong of us not to practice democracy. Now I don’t get to vote on whether we do or don’t provide aid to Pakistan. Well hell, let the Pakistani’s decide. Hey Joe Punjab, do you resent the U.S. propping up you military dictatorship? You do? Fine, the next US taxpayers dollars sent to Pakistan are going to be in the form of cruise missiles. Try it out anywhere. South Korea, what do you think, what do you really think? You prefer tyrant for life Kim Jong Il over tyrant for eight years GWB. No problem. We respect democracy. FU~! Next, Germany, well will just take a show of hands… FU~! Were out of here! We cannot spend the rest of the 21st century propping up tyrants. I mean it. I really, really mean it. It would be just, true, democratic, and it would separate the wheat from the chaff. Once we tossed off a few sacrificial lambs to the slaughter, maybe we would gain some real solid allies. And if not, think of the money we’d save. Can’t buy off a world of fickle friends.

Now that is what I call real gunboat diplomacy.

2/22/2006 12:50:00 PM  
Blogger Annoy Mouse said...

Read on BC yesterday that the SoK youth would vote 2 to 1 for NorK control over US hegemony. Well that kind of crystallized it for me. Let’s demand a vote in every country that receives US aid and have them put it to a vote. It would be downright wrong of us not to practice democracy. Now I don’t get to vote on whether we do or don’t provide aid to Pakistan. Well hell, let the Pakistani’s decide. Hey Joe Punjab, do you resent the U.S. propping up you military dictatorship? You do? Fine, the next US taxpayers dollars sent to Pakistan are going to be in the form of cruise missiles. Try it out anywhere. South Korea, what do you think, what do you really think? You prefer tyrant for life Kim Jong Il over tyrant for eight years GWB. No problem. We respect democracy. FU~! Next, Germany, well will just take a show of hands… FU~! Were out of here! We cannot spend the rest of the 21st century propping up tyrants. I mean it. I really, really mean it. It would be just, true, democratic, and it would separate the wheat from the chaff. Once we tossed off a few sacrificial lambs to the slaughter, maybe we would gain some real solid allies. And if not, think of the money we’d save. Can’t buy off a world of fickle friends.

Now that is what I call real gunboat diplomacy.

2/22/2006 12:51:00 PM  
Blogger Annoy Mouse said...

Sorry for the double. I think I squeezed too hard.

2/22/2006 12:52:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

That's what I've been saying.
Look to the reality, who's won and why.
Where did the Enemy flee and Why?
Where does the money flow?
But most important of ALL
Who is the Enemy?

Until that answer can be articulated , clearly. Names of Countries, tribes, Clans, Families and individuals etc. that are marked for destruction.

A man's actions could destroy his family. It is how Saddam ruled.
He was at War with his own people.

With whom are we at War?

2/22/2006 12:52:00 PM  
Blogger PeterBoston said...

If we are going to be treated like bastards then maybe we should be acting like bastards. There is a history, after all.

2/22/2006 12:54:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

If that's where it's going, then the sooner the better. Dan is dead right as to where the responsibility for this mess lies. Yes, Bush is holding the pencil, but it's the idiots right here among us that drive the whole world running around haywire. that god-forsaken 2004 presidential campaign did more damage than anything to this war effort--and it was by deliberate choice, as if the whole world was some precinct in Jersey.

2/22/2006 12:55:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"The Korean example exposes the dangers of containment and isolation. "
Yeah the folks we died for want to go back to Maolinism,
against us.

2/22/2006 12:59:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

People like Patton and MacArthur saw all this coming. Prophets dishonored in their own land.

2/22/2006 01:03:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Shame on you!
Disrespect toward a
Shiite Muslim LEADER

2/22/2006 01:04:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

despicable fraudulent wanna-be gulag kommandants.

2/22/2006 01:05:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

So what, Buddy, they should have disrespected Move On, Michael Moore, and Jimmah?
Are you nuts?

2/22/2006 01:06:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

that's weird--my 'gulag' post was in response to Doug's 'jimmah' post. How'd it git on top of it?

2/22/2006 01:07:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

There will be, at some point, payback for the years of abuse the Shia of Iraq have taken from the Tribe of Saddam. No matter how long we stay. Ask mika, he harbours grievences thousands of years old, as does porker and C4.

all i want is universal human rights, the right not to be beheaded, the right to move, the right to own land, the right to vote and the right to dissagree with anyone without having a bullet in the back of the head...

as for my grievences:

I want the vatican to return all looted 1st & 2nd temple artifacts

I want europe to refund all property it stole via the crown & church

I want all jewish refugees from the arab world to be justly paid back for the wholesale theft it did on my tribe

I want egypt to back back unpaid wages from 400 years of slavery

I want royalities from every christian and moslem everytime they tell my families stories from their bible or koran... (since without my Torah, neither group has shit)

likelyhood that i'll ever get ANY of those?


Why? the world aint fair....

so i want from this moment forward, is the right to live, unmolested by the peoples who have NEVER stopped molesting me...

Those who have stolen my (collective) art, businesses, homeland, property and even our children, i say, keep them all, I will create new, better and more than you can steal or destroy.....

2/22/2006 01:09:00 PM  
Blogger Annoy Mouse said...

Just stay in Ohio and all your dreams will come true.

2/22/2006 01:14:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"Anyone with 20/20 vision"
OK, Club members, let's have a show of hands.
If you have trouble raising your arm, just ask the friendly govt home care provider for assistance.

2/22/2006 01:16:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Well said, Pork.

2/22/2006 01:18:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

What, exactly, is C4's grievance?
Existence of other peoples is not an option.

2/22/2006 01:19:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Doug, jeez i'm glad my post wound up on top--

2/22/2006 01:19:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

did it again!

2/22/2006 01:20:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Buddy 1:07 PM,
Google is imposing Brokeback Standards on Conservative Websites as a Balance to their China Policy.
Our Motto Is:
It's Fun to make Fun of America.

2/22/2006 01:21:00 PM  
Blogger exhelodrvr1 said...

So, Desert Rat, what specifically is your proposal for dealing with the nuclear weapons of Pakistan? How do you suggest we get rid of them? What backlash will that have on Pakistan itself, and on the relationships we have with other Arab nations? That will, of course, eliminate the assistance we do get from Pakistan. How will we operate militarily in that part of the world without it? Do we go after North Korea next? Will us forcing Pakistan to give up their nukes entice Kim to give up his, or will it entive him to act militarily?

2/22/2006 01:21:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Collateral Damage is appreciated.

2/22/2006 01:21:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

I must've died, and am posting from the past.

Durnit, everything here in heaven looks just the same. Fooey.

2/22/2006 01:22:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

oy, I've been found out--

2/22/2006 01:22:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

I don't even SEE your Gulag Post:
Are you Jooish Too?

2/22/2006 01:24:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Maybe Google gets a bonus when they wipe Jewish Posters off the Blogosphere?

2/22/2006 01:26:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

It's a clear shot through Warizistan, ex helo.
Piece of Cake.

2/22/2006 01:28:00 PM  
Blogger PeterBoston said...

I want royalities from every christian and moslem everytime they tell my families stories from their bible or koran... (since without my Torah, neither group has shit)

Show me the contract porker. JC picked up the rights.

2/22/2006 01:28:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

Show me the contract porker. JC picked up the rights.

the contract is directly from moses to the jewish people, it is NOT changable, but thanks for ignoring everything else

2/22/2006 01:31:00 PM  
Blogger PeterBoston said...

You wanna read something depressing? Read this:

'Consigning the Lucky Country to the same trash can of history as Old Europe'

2/22/2006 01:35:00 PM  
Blogger PeterBoston said...


It wasn't changed. It was assigned.

2/22/2006 01:36:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Here we go again:
Where's Opotho?

2/22/2006 01:36:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Well, just how good an Ally is the General President, that would be the first question.
Clandestine deconstruction for what $100 Billion USD.
8 months worth of Iraq, so maybe $500 Billion would be a more reasonable offer, may have to double it by the time we're done.

Depending upon the offer being rejected or not, the weapons could be siezed, providing intel etc. was up to snuff. Big assumption.
The 82nd could do it, Death from above.
If they could not be siezed they'd be destroyed. Just as Irans capacity is to be destroyed. B-2's etc.

I'd certainlt give peace a chance, that and large quanitities of cash

2/22/2006 01:40:00 PM  
Blogger trish said...

"It's a clear shot through Warizistan, ex helo.
Piece of Cake."

Why, Doug.

THAT was actually funny.

2/22/2006 01:44:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Thank God you came up with my idea for the first strike with Dollars, 'Rat.
May not look like John Wayne, but it sure beats a bunch of blood and more bucks anyhoo.
General could be the richest man in the world.

2/22/2006 01:45:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Someone earlier posted how nuts it was not to do that right after 9-11.
But that is old think.
We are the moderns.
aka morons.

2/22/2006 01:46:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

And maybe.
If Mr Kim did not find out Pakisatan has deNuked, it would not effect him.
If we had to hard in some manner, than yes it could have an effect on him.
The SorKs are opposed to any change. Whatever happens, other than the status que, is bad for them. In varied degrees.

But then I didn't site Seoul so close to the Border. It was not US that decided to repopulate it.

I do not think of China ever being Invaded through Pakistan. Korea, yes, but my knowledge of that Region is a bit thin, since Silk Trade dryed up, who was there to care.

2/22/2006 01:48:00 PM  
Blogger Bonnie said...

Sorry to hop back in so late. God Bless your son, Desert Rat, and may he come home safely.

The chess board, as you say, is in full play but there are pieces that have been removed.

If we walk away the chess pieces will be renamed from "Baghdad" and "Tikrit" to "New York" and "Washington D.C." and "The Bay Bridge." I prefer to keep playing with the board in place. Better their mosques than my Smithsonian.

2/22/2006 01:50:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

But they are already in Boston, muzzling the Press. They are in New York and Washington, now shaping our World.

But then perhaps the Fearless Mohammedans are not the real Enemy? Perhaps we should submit.

What, I wonder, would Leonard Furlong do?

2/22/2006 01:56:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

that China route is the one that enriched the mongols--they dropped into India and did rapine and robbery on massive scales. I think around the 1100s--I gamble without google--

2/22/2006 02:05:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

But no one's ever gone the other way, have they?

2/22/2006 02:10:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Oddly enough, there is a story that the Brits surveyed the passes back in the early 20th, for just such an eventuality. Wish I could recall the details.

2/22/2006 02:16:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

Taking down Pakistan, though, via Musharraf and whatever semi-miraculous/semi-evil patronage network would not only stir up, what, 50 million would-be jihadis, it would also throw Kashmir and India into the pot. Meanwhile, KSA, Iran, Syria - free hand yet. Sounds like a recipe for increased adverse chaos to me.

al-Sadr delenda est.

2/22/2006 02:17:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"50 million would-be jihadis"
Yeah, right now they are just mellowing out, wouldn't want to anger them.

2/22/2006 02:34:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Bubba made some passes when he was in the neighborhood on the same trip that he made a pass on a mummy in Egypt.

2/22/2006 02:35:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

You don't want to know the details.

2/22/2006 02:36:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

The tripod triangulator?

2/22/2006 02:38:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Yeah, there a 50 million jihadis there, doug, just chillin'.
If we ignore them, maybe they'll leave US and Europe alone.
Ya think.

As I said, if fighting against Global Jihad is to hard, if the Globe is to large, we should beat it on home.

If the task is not to great, we should get on with it. Before Dr Khan builds another 48 warheads for some other 'stan.

Or has he promised the General President he won't. Dr Khan is a National Hero, you know. No representitive of US can speak to him, directly. A lot like that Mr Sistani in Iraq.

US folk are unworthy of their time.

2/22/2006 03:09:00 PM  
Blogger trish said...

Give S. Korea nuclear weapons. Then leave.

Give Taiwan nuclear weapons, then stop worrying about a military confrontation with China over that thorny issue.

Give 'em to Japan for that matter.

Good deterrence makes good neighbors.

But if you're determined to be every-effin-where, for-effin-ever, by all means, let them stay dependent upon you for their defense.

2/22/2006 03:10:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

I got chills listening to the Coast Guard official's answers to Hewitt's numerous questions about UAE providing stevadoring services. the company, not the Coast Guard screens employees, for instance.
...but what do I know:
My Common Sense is now considered Paleo Madness.
Dershowitz is going to be on Hewitt later.

2/22/2006 03:20:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Trish 3:10 PM,
It's the only way we'll get the whole f'n world to love us:
Like them South Korean Youth's for instance.

2/22/2006 03:23:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

We're not worthy of much of anything, anymore, 'Rat.
...even home grown checks on port security.

2/22/2006 03:26:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Radioblogger Already has Admiral's interview with Hewitt.
Frank Gafney is next.
Hewitt, like me, was not convinced.
I am not the only moron.
...but then Hewitt IS over 30.
Trust, and verify after the Boom.
Maybe I shouldn' have had kids.

2/22/2006 03:34:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Buddy has a wsj link that says it's good for business.
So it's gotta be good.
I shoulda been born 30 years earlier.

2/22/2006 03:36:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Gafney says Admiral is whistling past the graveyard.
For the EXACT same reason I had.
Them Aarabs are too damned stupid to game us.
Plus they are our friends, right?
GWB does not want to appear to treat ANYBODY different.
That would be profiling, which is sinful. is thinking up is up.

2/22/2006 03:40:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Hewitt says the company is hiring UAE Nationals.
...they'll never figure out how to weasel their way in their., it's more money for Palestinian Charities.
Sucks to be a Bigot.

2/22/2006 03:43:00 PM  
Blogger sirius_sir said...

al-Sadr delenda est.

The sooner the better.

2/22/2006 03:48:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Don't worry about the PA, doug, after all these years of US paying the frieght, Iran says it'll foot the bill, for a while.
Great news, if little PA babies start to starve, it's Irans fault not US.

2/22/2006 03:49:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Compassionate Conservatives delenda est.

2/22/2006 03:53:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Hewitt said he and Gafney worked on infiltration in Reagan admin.
But what they know?
Some rah rah writer at wsj probably knows better.

2/22/2006 04:01:00 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

C'mon people, would you rather the arms industry business go to Zooropa, Russia, China. We're making good progress. The completion is almost vanquished. When we'll have a monopoly we'll make the rules.

2/22/2006 04:43:00 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...


You have an audio link? I'm too lazy to read the transcripts from Radioblogger.

2/22/2006 04:47:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

DOD wants to cut funding for C-17 and MOTHBALL IT?
What, convert B-52's into troop carriers?
I heard it on the radio, I sweear.
We're winning the war of the Bean Counters 'Rat.
Sucks to be a patriot.

2/22/2006 04:51:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

I thought he said there was an mp3.
I caint think and read at the same time, so if I wanna learn, it's gotta be audio.

2/22/2006 04:52:00 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

I'm not seeing the Dershowitz or Gafney material. No real time audio radio station?

2/22/2006 04:56:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

You ARE Freakin Lazy!
Hewitt Admiral Interview

Do I get a Free Root Canal Now?

2/22/2006 04:58:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

It was on live on but you missed it.
If you search you might find another station, or catch it on the air, but THAT would take effort on your part.

2/22/2006 05:00:00 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

I'd be happy to oblige. We'll use caffeine for analgesic.

2/22/2006 05:07:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

I thought you were Dr. Feelgood.
Lay the Nitrous on Me.

2/22/2006 05:22:00 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

You have me confused. I'm Dr. Strangelove.

2/22/2006 05:25:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Hewitt says Bush Justice is arguing for greatest federal encroachment in history.

Water on private property 22 miles from navigable waterway to be under federal control due to Interstate Commerce.

Greens Win.
In the 70's, my famous Revolutionary (Front of Sports Illustrated) Environmentalist Prof never was so bold.

Compassionate Conservatism = Big Government, Big Federal Enviro Agencies, Islamic Defense Infrastructure.

I feel great about being compassionate.

2/22/2006 05:30:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Your Fired!
Saheeb Skyhook's got your job now!

2/22/2006 05:31:00 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

General Jack D. Ripper: Fluoridation is the most monstrously conceived and dangerous communist plot we have ever had to face.

2/22/2006 05:42:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Polluted my vital bodily fluids.

2/22/2006 05:45:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Can Dentists Work on Calcified Erections?

2/22/2006 05:47:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Now that you are no longer employeed, you can volunteer to rebuild the sacred shrine.

2/22/2006 05:48:00 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

Well, if you want some Mormon tattoos, you can use a Cavitron.

2/22/2006 05:52:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Some Mormon is talkin about Semitic DNA.
Too Heavy for me.
Can't read the book of Morman, write, and listen at the same time.
I can't remember my handwritten signature, much less my genetic one.

2/22/2006 05:54:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Dr Strangelove at the controls of the Cavitron.
The world as we know it is doomed.

2/22/2006 05:56:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Those two Imams in there are REALLY buried now.

2/22/2006 05:59:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

I think the Dershowitz thing is coming at Radioblogger.
Hope you don't have to read it.
I care.
Compassionate, you know.

2/22/2006 06:01:00 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

Compassionate? Is that the Russian ambassador you're talking about?

2/22/2006 06:08:00 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

Howdy Doody time in the USSRofA.

2/22/2006 06:21:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

Trish, this is always the point I get to with my Buchananite friend: leaving will entail a nuclear East Asia. The fundamental fact of the matter, in my opinion, is that the Cold War security arrangements - or, if you like, "security" - are more permanent than the Soviet Union, particularly as the consequences of the old theaters' relationships persist, as do many of those relationships themselves.

Beyond that, as you point out, no capable country is going to tolerate being co-opted by a nuclear giant neighbor. Japan will build one; SK will buy or build one. Any attempt by Taiwan to build or buy one will start that war. Koreans, Japanese and Chinese are all ancient antagonists. Australia will probably want them if we pull back far enough.

Considering we're only in this situation because of Eurasian wars that we entered belatedly but necessarily, and considering the tendency for ancient animosities to animate modern, superdestructive wars in which we play moderator-with-hammer, what's the point of pulling back, instigating this dangerous realignment, probably being blamed even more intensely than we already are for whatever minute conflicts flare up among these countries, and then getting drawn back in, probably as permanently as we are now?

And about the 50 million "would-be" jihadis - strikes me that the lid is on as tight as possible at the moment. Pakistan's national mission has always been Islam first; the Soviet jihad and CIA taught the ISI the methods to effectively intervene in other countries. Obviously, Saudi money, as rat says, is the poison. But unless you intend to kill millions of Pakistanis, and a number of Saudi princes that would drive even the drunken, whore-tired "moderates" into the jihad business, then hitting these two countries will cause Iraq to pale in comparison and break the tenuous hold that the US has as hegemon in the region. I think the answer is not to attempt to solve the entire rot of the Muslim world at once (without the Mongol option), but to attack the crises as they arise, make ourselves the indispensable moderator (which the Arab governments will prove themselves incapable of doing), and take down Iran next with a real Coalition. It wouldn't "benefit Israel" any more than it would benefit us or Saudi Arabia; it would also benefit Lebanon, Afghanistan and Iraq.

2/22/2006 06:22:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

What the hell though I know I'm just farting in the wind. I just can't see how allowing Iran to stand for much longer, let alone aggrandize itself, isn't like killing all peasants around the walls of the castle and not burning the crops or interdicting the food supply or laying siege to the walls. What's the strategy w/r/t KSA? I don't know - the oil, the Two Holy Places, but also the small population, large foreign work force...

Or maybe we can sit back and wait for a while and see what develops.

Also, kill al-Sadr. That'll force some cards face up.

2/22/2006 06:28:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

How do you see a viable outcome once something happens to Gen Mush?

2/22/2006 06:32:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Sadr was dead 3 years ago by me.

2/22/2006 06:33:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Talk about some upset folks, though, Dan:
Those enraged Shiites were carrying Sadr Posters!

2/22/2006 06:35:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

But speaking of the media wars - and then i'll shut up for a while - why is it that we can't at least fund a great movie about the depredations of Saddam Hussein's rule, one that shows especially the Sunni-Shia dynamic, the Kurds' problems, and so on.

We have to get into this tradition Arab-Islamo shame/face-saving game. Movies, not news broadcasts, are the answer, I think. And we could make DVDs.

We ought to produce things about their beloved history without condescending to or insulting them - we could try to demostrate by example ways in which Arab-Islamic culture can participate in not just the trappings of the modern world.

We could produce - or pay to have some Iraqi or Egyptian or Persian person write and direct and cast but a full Hollywood thing produce - movies about the fall of the Ottoman Empire, about discovery of oil (in the USA!), of great Arabian Nights stories, about some characteristic period of comity among Jews and Muslims that somehow flatters Muslim superiority but introduces a stealth ice-breaker - hey like when Cyrus or whoever it was restored Israel to the Jews, about Avicenna's medical advances, about periods and figures that show their triumphs...

There must be Some real Trojan Horses we can throw out there. But in such a way that they welcome the Greeks that pour out.

2/22/2006 06:43:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

Yeah Doug that's what I'm saying: doesn't it seem that without Musharraf we're going to be dealing with an outright Islamist Pakistan? As far as I'm concerned, the overall strategy is to prevent Islamist takeover, or alternatively to force Islamist takeover while the parties are much weaker than they otherwise would be and can't master WMD export. What were your thoughts eh?

2/22/2006 06:45:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Roger Simon writes screenplays.
That would be the ultimate in Peace, Love, and Compassion:
A Jewish Writer donating his services!

2/22/2006 06:48:00 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

That's a nice business proposition, Doug. Howdy Doody time in the USSRofA.

2/22/2006 06:55:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Scared S...less since 9-11,
knowin they have them,
knowin they hate us,
knowin they hate life as we know it.

2/22/2006 07:01:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...


2/22/2006 07:06:00 PM  
Blogger trish said...


The "fundamental fact of the matter" is that our security responsibilities are far outpacing reasonable means. And the more such responsibilities we have, the more we WILL be drawn into conflicts that do not materially affect us.

We're simply creating a global security dependency.

2/22/2006 07:25:00 PM  

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