Tuesday, November 08, 2005

Intifada or Watts?

Dominique de Villepin is planning to invoke the curfew laws drafted during the Algerian War to restore order in France. According to the New York Times:

The government of Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin used a 1955 law drafted during the Algerian War to impose a curfew and other restrictive measures on areas where rioters have sown disorder ... By mid-afternoon, the officials - prefects of France's seven military zones - were still trying to hammer out details of the measure, said Franck Louvrier, a spokesman for Mr. Sarkozy.

The juxtaposition of the words "Algerian War", "curfew", "riots" and "Paris" will certainly conjure up images of an incident said to have occurred in 1961, the Nuit de Noir. The Guardian described a documentary film on this controversial incident in an article written before the riots.

Today Nuit Noire (Black Night) will be released at a select number of French cinemas. The controversial film, made by one of France's most respected directors, reconstructs the events of the night of 17 October 1961, when a protest against French policy in Algeria, then a colony on the brink of independence, sparked a huge police operation. Hundreds of demonstrators were killed or injured but there was no official acknowledgement at the time - or for decades afterwards. ... 

Wikipedia, which notes that allegations of a bloody suppression of Algerian rioters in 1961 is a controversial subject whose key facts are disputed, describes the events in this way.

On October 17, 1961, thousands of Algerian immigrants living in Paris took to the streets in support of the national liberation struggle being waged in Algeria against France by the FLN (Front Libération National - National Liberation Front). In response, the Paris police department violently broke up the demonstations, as well as took other severe actions related to the demonstrations. While the police originally claimed that only three deaths resulted from the conflict, historians estimate that between 32 and 200 demonstrators died. With almost no media coverage at the time, the events surrounding the massacre, as well as the death toll, were almost unknown both in France and worldwide for decades. For this reason, there is no generally-used name to designate these events.

Whether true or not, the supposed events of 1961 cast an historical shadow over the revival of the 1955 French curfew law. The Arab world is certainly aware of this context. Al Ahram wrote in March 1999.

On 5 October 1961, Papon ordered a curfew on all Algerians, forbidding them to leave their homes in the suburbs at night. In response, the French Federation of the FLN called on its people to stage a peaceful demonstration through the Latin Quarter and along the Champs Elysée, bringing their families and children with them. Frightened of the prospect of a "North African invasion", and determined to maintain order at any cost, the French police prepared an ambush for the demonstrators to prevent them from penetrating the city. The bloody encounter was not limited to Paris itself, but extended to the suburb of Nanterre, where police opened fire on Algerians living in its vast shanty town. The chief of the Paris police at that time was Maurice Papon -- the same man who had been in charge of the notorious Bordeaux police under the Vichy government.

A few years ago, France already found itself facing a crisis of conscience when, following a petition organised by French intellectuals and Jewish citizens, Papon was brought out of retirement to face trial, charged with sending thousands of Jews to their deaths in the Nazi camps between 1942 and 1943. Then, the French police had sought to round up every Jew living in Bordeaux -- men, women and children -- and pack them off to the butchers of Auchwitz.

Commentary

One of the reasons why French authorities are at pains to craft their response is the need to avoid these historical minefields. Ironically, measures such as the curfew would have been unncessary if the authorities had acted to suppress or conciliate in the early days of the riots. Having vacillated between courses of action, they are now faced with the necessity of imposing large-scale suppressive measures whose impacts must be strictly controlled.

The underclass which has announced its existence over the past 12 days is still largely uncommitted to a specific ideology; it is a variable waiting for a value. Radical Islamic elements are naturally bending effort to lead this discontent. France must offer an alternative vision, one that consists not merely of welfare checks or government benefits, but an identity which each and every resident of the banlieus can be proud of. In this contest, France must revive many of the notions which it sought even recently to bury. The idea of a love of country, not mere membership in a soulless European Union; the idea of pride, denigrated in an age of national guilt; the idea of community, at a time when cultural division, diversity, multiculturality is the highest value of the day.

Glenn Reynolds poses the question of whether the riots in France represent an Intifada or a Watts. The difference between the two will be in the mind.

Update

SBS has details on the measures the French authorities will use to suppress the riots. It reports that:

President Jacques Chirac ... invoked a 50-year-old law originally drawn up at the start of the Algerian war which permits the declaration of curfews, house searches and a ban on public meetings. ...

It permits state-appointed ... prefects - to "forbid the movement of people and vehicles in places and times fixed by decree" and ban "meetings likely to provoke or fuel disorder". ... "order house searches at any time of day or night" and to control "press and publications of all kinds" although Mr Villepin told parliament this last article would not be invoked. Article six allows the interior minister to issue house arrests for people "whose activity is dangerous for public safety." 

169 Comments:

Blogger Vercingetorix said...

Europe has given us national socialism and godless communism but both grew from the same fertile soil. A Europe of nations is socialist and it's citizens' character is ethnic, not civic. For Europe to survive, now and in the future, Europe must reverse it's petty racial lines and it's moribund socialism.

These things are linked, for a good citizen does not rest on his inheritence as a good government does not squander its trust.

11/08/2005 12:29:00 PM  
Blogger Eleanor © said...

"Intifada or Watts?" -- Muslims in France are now demanding an autonous enclave over which they will have sole control.

Surprise! The correct answer is --- The Intifada!

11/08/2005 12:35:00 PM  
Blogger wretchard said...

Eleanor,

Right now the demands for enclaves are being put forward by people with an Islamist agenda on the backs of the recent events. The rioters themselves are not yet decisively constituted, though they they will be if the France continues to abdicate cultural and political sovereignty over the ghettos.

It's still in play. The important thing is for the French not to morally surrender; and for that they must repudiate the shapeless garment that has occluded even themselves.

11/08/2005 12:40:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

"As far as I know, there is only one Muslim in the legislature, and he fits into the assimilationist mode typical of France. French political parties are going to have to seek out candidates of color and maybe mandate diversity on this basis."

Ok. This has to stop. "Race" does not have art, it does not have science, it does not have religion, it does not have language, it does not have anything. The "assimilationist type" of Muslim is What France Needs Because France is a Country, Not a Race, and a Country that is Christian or Socialist, not Muslim. We do not need three intellectual/moral ghettos to be replaced by 20. This whole goddamn ERROR in thinking is at the bottom of so much of this crap it makes me want to puke on Cedarford. You cannot DO anything with race or diversity as a primary thing; what ends up happening evidently is the girls, who are so diligent and cleanly and happy in the hierarchy of their social webs, end up taking over the professional schools and whatnot. Fine. But this is going to do what, exactly?

This whole idiotic move to rationalize everything has had a terrible effect on the natural familial sensability which would normally attend everything were it snuffed out by all these "great" "ideas." Pathetic. Be France, you idiots! BE FRANCE!

11/08/2005 12:49:00 PM  
Blogger Solomon2 said...

I do not think France will be able to handle this, not if the street rioters show any gumption once the police start shooting. Can France possibly invoke NATO to put down a "domestic" disturbance? Even if they could, wouldn't it get bogged down in court?

11/08/2005 12:57:00 PM  
Blogger ricksamerican said...

". . .they must repudiate the shapeless garment that has occluded even themselves."

But, Wretchard isn't that garment the one into which is woven the repudiation of the "many. . .notions which [the French]sought even recently to bury. The idea of a love of country. . ." etc.

Haven't they put themselves in an impossible position? The entire political/social/intellectual life of the country is invested in the EU myth, the diversity myth, the multicultural myth. If they appease, they lose. If they oppose they lose. Or am I missing something?

11/08/2005 12:58:00 PM  
Blogger wretchard said...

ricksamerican,

That's the garment I'm talking about. That's the one they've got to get rid of. Better to lose that shirt than to lose their country.

11/08/2005 01:00:00 PM  
Blogger Iowa80 said...

I know this has been said before, but I think it will be very hard for many Europeans ever to accept someone from out side Europe as a citizen of their country.

Many times when I have traveled to Europe and met new people they eventually ask me where I am from. I have always tried to tell them that I come from the US. Many of them, however, persist in asking, no, WHERE ARE YOU FROM?

What they really wanted to know was my ethnic make up. Upon figuring this out I have always tried to explain that my ethnic make up or does not reflect who I am at all. My family has been in the US from between three to six generations. I have no concept of what it means to come from any of the European countries that my ancestors did. I do not speak their language, I really do not concern myself with their politics, nor do I have much emotional investment in these countries.

Now some of the reasons for this can be traced back to historical reasons. After W.W. I and II most Americans with German roots did everything they could to distance themselves from their old homeland. Even though one of my grandparent’s first language growing up in St. Louis was German, after W. W. I the promptly forgot it and never for an instance considered himself anything other than American. It was not until after the fall of the Berlin Wall that he let on that he might have some family members living in East Germany but he wanted nothing to do with them because they were German.

Nevertheless, when I tried to explain this to my European acquaintances many of them did not seem to understand. They still wanted to know my ethnic make up as a way of understanding me. Again, I tried to tell them that I am an American, I like hamburgers, hotdogs, Cokes malts and baseball not Sauerkraut and football.

Maybe we are luckier here in the US. There is no master narrative on who is or is not an American. All you really have to be is born here. In Europe there is simply much more history that has to be overcome before you can become a non traditional Frenchman or Englishman.

That these disturbances would come in France though is a bit surprising. I always thought France was much more open minded when it came to being French citizen than countries like Germany. At least France has a history of taking in immigrants. I believe that their Minister of the Interior is the child of immigrant parents. In Germany until quite recently you had to prove some sort of historical ethnic link with Germany before you could become a citizen. There were some people making jokes in the early and mid 90s that the only thing German about some of the Russian immigrants coming back to Germany, who could trace their roots back to German migration into Russia during the time of Catherine the Great, was that their grandfather had owned a German Shepherd. Meanwhile there were some third generation Turkish children who still did not qualify for German citizenship.

I am afraid we are living in very interesting times and I am beginning to feel very tired.

Iowa80

11/08/2005 01:06:00 PM  
Blogger Meme chose said...

You're behind the curve here. France gave up control in these suburban "zones" years ago. The current conflict is about whether this already existing situation will be maintained as the zones descend into an embarassing 'Clockwork Orange' state of youth-led anarchy.

The mind-set of the rioters may be indistinct in its ideology but it is not malleable. It's too late to integrate very large numbers from this generation, who have become vicious and unruly hooligans. Their attitudes and lack of education do not fit them for productive employment even if there were jobs, and even if the French wanted to employ them, which they absolutely do not. You wouldn't either, if you had met them. They are scary to be around.

The French state's options are limited because they know that talented young French people with skills would rather emigrate than be forced to integrate. The approach of that particular 'tipping point' puts France in a situation reminiscent of that of the East German and Polish regimes in the 1980's.

11/08/2005 01:11:00 PM  
Blogger Heloise said...

The word to describe what is happening in France and the rest of eurabia is jihad. Read the koran, the hadiths of bukhari and the sira, the biography of mohammed and you can identify the events repeating down through time.

Islam is one community of believers (the ummah) and recognizes no nation state as having power above their shariah law, for all the world is allah's and therefore, the world belongs to the believers and until this world is all one ummah, there will be permanent war (jihad).

Jihad also takes many other forms besides the sword (stones, bottles, guns, bats, bombs, etc.) such as jihad by the pen and by the womb.

11/08/2005 01:20:00 PM  
Blogger rogerlee said...

Wretchard -

"France must offer an alternative vision, one that consists not merely of welfare checks or government benefits, but an identity which each and every resident of the banlieus can be proud of."

In the years leading up to the Nazi's rise to power in 1933, the Republic it replaced was paralyzed by an endless stuggle between multiple weak factions far more interested in promoting the welfare of their individual constituencies than in working for a solution for the economic and social problems that threatened the country. The result was the rise of a violently nationalist and racist party that led the nation to ruin. If the task of rising above squabbles over benefits and creating a new, inclusive definition of France is beyond its leaders, and I am certain that it is, the Fifth Republic will follow a far darker road to redefining its identity and vision.

11/08/2005 01:23:00 PM  
Blogger Sardonic said...

Intersting, iowa80...

"I have always tried to tell them that I come from the US. Many of them, however, persist in asking, no, WHERE ARE YOU FROM?"

We Americans live in a state of near complete historical ignorance, whereas the Europeans are steeped in it from head to toe. When they ask "Where are you from?" (meaning ethnically) it is not in order for them to understand your thinking or what kind of person you may be, but the history of your family so that they can properly praise or condemn you based on what your great great great great grandfathers may have done. They pride themselves on taking the long view... Americans on the other hand have no interest in this formulation and are exclusively interested in whether or not you are a good or bad individual. That is my hunch.

Does this have a bearing on the riots? Only in so far as it shows just how alien different cultural mentalities can be from one another. And what is the cultural mentality of the "Youth" rioters? Well, that should be obvious from their actions.

11/08/2005 01:25:00 PM  
Blogger ricksamerican said...

Wretchard
I am questioning whether the French CAN take off that garment and not remain naked--to extend the metaphor--because I think they threw the old one into the trash and its long ago been thrown into the fire.
You seem to think that France can go back to a pre-EU mindset and find some essential Frenchness that can incorporate the muslim minority. That would be a truly extraordinary outcome--one that I can't really imagine muslims embracing. But if there is life, there is hope.

11/08/2005 01:28:00 PM  
Blogger dave in boca said...

Bantustans in La Belle France!

Perhaps now is a good time to remember what the insufferable Mitterrand sniffed back in '92 when Los Angeles went haywire"

"LA could not happen in France “BECAUSE OF OUR SOCIAL PROTECTIONS.”

Well, these rotten little druggies fell into the cracks of the brittle Fifth Republic and are running rampant.

Tsk-tsks from pursed lips aren’t going to stop them.

So much for the French social model.

11/08/2005 01:36:00 PM  
Blogger sfrcook said...

Wretchard, substitute "the West" for "France" in you second to last paragraph and on realizes that the unknown in our current conflict with Islamism has been the reaction of the West. We already know the intent of the totalitarians, as we did in the past. They are usually unashamed and unapologetic in vocalizing their goals.

My primary concern has always been, not the nature of Islam, but rather the nature of the West. Will we show Chamberlain-like weakness or Churhchillian strength?

11/08/2005 01:37:00 PM  
Blogger RWE said...

iowa80: In other words, the United States is the only country in the world that has "white people"

11/08/2005 01:38:00 PM  
Blogger Heloise said...

Postings on muslim weblogs reveal that there is a name for this aspect of the French jihad, operation Midnight Sun. See "Jihad in Europe?" by Robert Spencer,
http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20107

France made a dhimmi pact with the devil and has profited from it for many years as it blindly skipped down the multicultural path to oblivion. Now the jiza tax has been raised and the government will willingly pay it. See Eurabia by Bat Ye'or (a very scholarly book but well worth the study).
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/083864077X/102-3434764-1046526?v=glance&n=283155&s=books&v=glance

11/08/2005 01:54:00 PM  
Blogger Heloise said...

sfrcook, you raise the million dollar question. At this point in time, it seems to me, Chamberlain rules as history repeats itself,
repeats itself,
repeats itself . . .

11/08/2005 01:59:00 PM  
Blogger Cobalt Blue said...

There has probably been some surprise on the part of the rioters at just how far and how long they have been able to go with this. Some of the activity is likely simply to have been testing the field on their part--the outcome of which is of keen interest to those who seek to supply the "value to the variable." The mob is thus testing tools that are newly created--or rather, recreated: outrage, demand, riot, arson, fear.

No jihadist will be blind to the possibilities of these tools.

11/08/2005 02:16:00 PM  
Blogger Aristides said...

In the year AD 802,701, humanity has evolved into two separate species: the Eloi and the Morlocks. The Eloi are the rich, attractive upper class which lives in luxury on the surface of the earth while the Morlocks live underground, tending machinery and providing food, clothing and infrastructure for the Eloi. Each class evolved (or degenerated) from different social classes as humans, a theme that reflects upon Wells' sociopolitical opinions.

The main difference from their earlier ruler-worker state is that while the Morlocks continue to support the world's infrastructure and serve the Eloi, the Eloi have undergone significant physical and mental deterioration. Having solved all problems which required strength, intelligence or virtue, they have slowly become dissolute, frail idiots. While one initially has the impression that the Eloi live a life of play and toilless abundance, it is revealed that the Morlocks are tending to their needs as a farmer tends to cattle. It seems that Eloi comprise most(if not all) of the Morlock diet and the Eloi are no longer capable of acting in any other role.


From Wikipedia.

The paradigm of the welfare state is going through a stage of violent natural selection. According to Thomas Kuhn, the stages of paradigm evolution are 1) emergence, 2)normality, 3) crisis, 4) revolution.

France's statist welfare system is in step three, as is multiculturalism. Step four is coming soon.

11/08/2005 02:24:00 PM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

Wretchard, what should the rioters do or say that to you would be proof of their united decision that it'll be thumbs up, or thumbs down? And, for France would "thumbs up" be Watts or intifada, since in either case the flames will still be burning brightly, and criminal lawbreakers will be being rewarded for their efforts.

(Whatever happened to just *shooting* the Bad Guys???)

11/08/2005 02:31:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

The Francofada
Tactics that Yasser left to France's dissaffected youth on his death bed.
Francofada = roaming platoons of Mohammedan arsonists, using satellites and modualar networks for communications.
Francofada = A 100% home grown French Insurgency.
Francofada = delivery of "Safe Havens" or "Autonomous Zones" and recongnition from French Officials.

The Francofada, where will it go from here?

11/08/2005 02:46:00 PM  
Blogger James Kielland said...

I'm going to play devil's advocate. While initially concerned about this "unrest" by these "youths" I'm beginning to find the intifada talk a bit strong. So far, these disturbances have in no way approached the violence and the amount of property damage of the Rodney King riots. And yet as heated as that event was, it's been relatively tranquil in Los Angeles since. Things neither continued nor did the communities tensions become increasingly worse.

I hope we're not the victims of excess media excitement that we saw following Hurricane Katrina.

As a term, intifada may eventually prove to be correct. But I think carelessly throwing that label on this may be about as appropriate as making dire predictions following the WTO 'unrest" in Seattle or the Rodney King riots.

None of this is to say that the situation is not dangerous nor that it is free from the potential of being manipulated by sinister forces and morphing into something more dangerous. But the labels of intifada or even "race riot", and the ascribing of motives from jihad to "lack of recognition" may both be missing the mark.

I hate to throw the words "subtle" or "nuanced" around and I also don't want to minimize the significance of what has occured. But the significance of what has occured demands some sobriety and the most clear-headed identification of what is going on as we can possibly muster.

Perhaps Islam has nothing to do with it. Perhaps marxist inspired class warfare notions have nothing to do with it. Perhaps both sides were missing the mark and Sarkozy was right that this was really just groups of scum who had a moment to create some excitement.

Now, as I said, I was playing devil's advocate. I personally do have a bit of a pessimistic outlook on this situation. But jumping to any conclusions at this point doesn't seem to be particularly helpful.

11/08/2005 02:47:00 PM  
Blogger Sophia Phoster said...

If toads had wings they wouldn't bump their ass on the ground. I suppose that the same maxim applies to frogs. Chirac et al have shown only indecision and weakness in the face of a direct challenge to their authority. The only way out for them is to put down the rioters with blunt force. Something that should have been done the first time the violence left the ghetto.

The possibility of the French elites changing their lifestyle to accomodate the ingrate rioters is zero. Likewise the chance that the Islamic rioters will change their lifestyle to accomodate the elites is also zero. Enough already of this economic victimhood. If there were no jobs for Abdul in the ghetto he had the choice of starting his own business. As I understand it the average welfare check is about $1,200 per month so there is plenty of money around to pay for goods and services. Or, heaven forbid, Abdul could move to where there are jobs.

A pox on the lot of them. If that means that the USA becomes one of the West's Islamic-free citadels then so be it. We still have the 2nd Amendment and you can bet that no politician ever hoping for reelection anywhere will try to change that.

11/08/2005 03:13:00 PM  
Blogger sfrcook said...

Sophia,

While I share your skepticism of the "economic victimhood" template, I'm afraid that it can not be entirely dismissed.
Wetchard writes "France must offer an alternative vision, one that consists not merely of welfare checks or government benefits, but an identity which each and every resident of the banlieus can be proud of. In this contest, France must revive many of the notions which it sought even recently to bury. The idea of a love of country, not mere membership in a soulless European Union; the idea of pride."
If Abdul had a job, Wretchard's suggestion would be infinately easier to accomplish. Unfortunately France and the other socialist economies of Europe are not engines of job creation, but rather job protection. How ironic it is that the primary reason for the "others" presence in Europe was to fill a labor shortage, yet the French unemployment rate is about 10% and significantly higher among the rioters' demographic.

What the riots represent, I believe, is an indictment of not only multicultualism, but of the socialist economic model as well. It appears that socialism and multiculturalism have been shown to be as irreconcilable as liberty and equality.

11/08/2005 03:50:00 PM  
Blogger Aristides said...

Curfew is midnight. How...French.

11/08/2005 03:54:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

Welcome to my world..

It the intifada..

My only selfish issue is whether i can afford Château d'Yquem & St. Emilion wines in the future...

Or will that, like Joseph's Tomb, be a memory of Islamic stewardship...

11/08/2005 04:19:00 PM  
Blogger Karridine said...

Historical minefields, indeed!

The SARS debacle in Red China is another fine example of this effect: the Communist government told everybody to report to the doctor's office and tell of ANY sickness you had... people reported for 2 months... then a small percentage who had VD were called back, and shot!

Now, 30 years later, the people aren't gonna be fooled again! Come in for SARS? No thank you very big! I'll take my chances OUTSIDE your 'doctors office'!

Black Night in Paris makes me think, too, of the riots in Bangkok... hundreds gunned down and disappeared...

11/08/2005 04:21:00 PM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

Don't forget, too, that lots of Americans have been trying our damndest to depress France's economy for the last three years, so that any jobs for Abdul at McDonald's, etc., might have gone away because Americans are mad at Chirac and keeping our tourist dollars home.

And since I, for one, have absolutely no intention of helping Jacques and Dominique rebuild their tottering financial empire, chances are not likely that things are gonna get a lot better job-wise for Abdul in the forseeable future.

11/08/2005 04:31:00 PM  
Blogger Karridine said...

If my 'vision of France' is one of smiling, well-fed white people and a few non-white faces around the edges; if my 'vision of France' sees me leisurely doing what the government allows or mandates-

this is a vision which is unhealthy, is not just, holds dysfunction at its core, and will not serve me well.

France (and all the human world) MUST create inclusive, fair and responsible visions of our future:

Mankind's Coming Encounter with The Glory of God, Baha'u'llah!

11/08/2005 04:37:00 PM  
Blogger Hejde said...

What most seem to miss is THE big difference between the US & european states. The US is centered on an IDEA (the Constitution good or bad), whereas european democracies have their constitutions as second thoughts and national identity, language & history as the primary glue. Most european contries have multiethnic populations, France especially.

Whereas constitutional changes are difficult - and only occurs as amendments - in the US, most european constitutions, to the extend they have one, tends to be timespecific and malleable, i.e. "the living constitution" some leftist & ahistoric legal scholars in the US believe we should have.

Denmark has had 4 (four) constitutions since the first democratic of 1849 (that's right 60 years after Philadelphia). Most people I know 'over there' cannot understand the US preoccupation with constitutional law - even when being explained the fundamental role it plays in what makes a person 'american', so used are they to just changing the rules if it seems opportune. The debacle over the monster of an attempted 'European' constitution in rrecent years.

The present unpleasantness in France does not have ONE root cause, it has many causes, not all of which are of equal importance. The ease with which the fundamental law is changed in most european contries makes society very flexible in this regard, but it also makes it very vulnerable and weak. It gives politicians an easy way to make radical changes without protection for the weak and out-of-power especially when coupled with the more 'democratic' proportional elections rather than plurality voting in circumscribed districts. Proportional elections makes the elected more dependent on the 'center' - i.e. the parties than on the voters. It can easily make voters feel disenfranchised and hence more likely to look for drastic means.

The measage to us in the US is that we fool around with the basics at our peril. The message to those in europe is that unless you can make national identity dependent on something stable, tangible and attainable, you will always be prone to instabilty and undemocratic rule is just around the corner.

peace

Hejde

11/08/2005 04:45:00 PM  
Blogger Sophia Phoster said...

sfcook

I don't doubt there are economic factors. Human beings are complex and I don't believe anybody is capable of neatly compartmentalizing why they do anything, never mind defining exactly why thousands of people do things en masse.

Let's consider the Chinatown example. Almost every metropoltian area of any size in North and South America and Europe has a Chinatown. Some for more than 150+ years. If economic disadvantages, ethnic discrimination, language dismimilarity and physical characteristics were the trigger for rioting then almost every Western language would have a term for the hundreds or thousands of such riots that would have occurred in Chinatown. They don't. And that's without even considering that "Chinese" includes dozens of subcultural possibilities.

The identity glue in France is Islam and Islam is poison when it even gets close to a Western value. Are there other factors? Sure. That doesn't change the underlying reality that in today's world anything and everything that smacks of political Islam must be confronted and pushed back with a word, an idea, an act of kindness, or a bullet.

11/08/2005 05:00:00 PM  
Blogger enscout said...

The disease of the left, and that includes the majority of French, is lack of forgiveness. Each succeeding generation of Godless men blames the prior's (or their own) mistakes for all known evil. If someone is suffering, it must be our fault. So we must now give them what they want to alleviate our guilt.

The problem with giving folks whatever they want, as oppposed to what they need, as any good parent/leader realizes, is that the "victim" never makes it past childhood - never knows accomplishment nor achieves identity.

What they need is security, training, self discipline, encouragement, love, competition, education, opportunity,etc. Many elements are lacking in a socialist world.

The economic problems are only the symptom.

11/08/2005 05:22:00 PM  
Blogger al fin said...

Islam wants to be the universal solvent. Islam wishes to dissolve every other system of government and civil society within itself. Totalitarianism has never been so ambitious as it is in Islam.

11/08/2005 05:32:00 PM  
Blogger rufus said...

A despicable group of people ( the French Ruling Elite) meet a Despicable excuse for a Religion ( Fundamentalist Islam) and things get a little messy. Yes I AM being a little flippant, and yes I do feel bad for the woman who was set on fire and the several people who lost their lives. But I can't do anything about it, and I'm making a point, here.

This will, almost surely, come to a bad ending for a few of the "youths," and many more of them will get a little college money and a new "youth center to trash. The American consumer will benefit, slightly, from a little stronger dollar, and a few exporters will be hurt marginally by a slightly higher dollar.

France will be embarressed ( for about a week, if that long,) and Greta Van Susteren will discover another cheerleader/beauty queen/ pregnant divorcee has gone missing in Martinique.

It will go unnoticed that we have won the war in Iraq and have withdrawn all of our troops, The economy has expanded in excess of 3% for the fourteenth straight quarter, and the Strategic Missile Defense has been successfully tested and is in the process of being expanded to knock down anything that could possibly be thrown at us from the new Islamo-Fascist President of Pakistan.

Interesting times make me sleepy, also. Good Night.

P.S. I've enjoyed reading your discussion. I'm extremely weak on European History ( including, but not limited to the Ottoman years,) and would greatly appreciate any recommendations as to reading material.

11/08/2005 06:03:00 PM  
Blogger Charles said...

As I've mentioned over and over again for the last year or two here on this board and for the previous five years over at Freerepublic--what will happen in europe --is that they will kick out all the moslems.

the process may be happening faster than I first thought.But probably not. But in any case expulsion of all non europeans is the outcome.

I think this will be even less of a big deal than the taking in the moslems in the first place.

Why? mostly because the moslems though they have overplayed their hand -- have forced the USA to accelerate technological development. One consequence of this will be that the cost of water desalination will be collapsed so that the cost of desalinated water in any desert land 1000 miles from any salt water coast will be the same as the cost of fresh water in Pennsylvania Ireland Poland or Japan.

Basically the size of the habitable planet will double in 10 years.

Suddenly all of north africa--all the sahara desert will be pictured and then it will become a green and verdant land.

So the people leaving Europe will not be kicked out--they will be going to a better place.

11/08/2005 06:09:00 PM  
Blogger Moron99 said...

so you have a funnel. If you pour water into it too quickly then it overflows.

The difference between the US and France is that the US has not poured immigrants into the funnel more quickly than they drain out into an americanized social order. In the case of western society the basis of this social order is that all people are equal before the eyes of the law. That all people are held accountable to the rule of law regardless of social stature, ancestry, or religion.

France got carried away with their multicultural ideology and poured immigrants into the funnel faster than they drained out and got frenchified. Now they have an excess number of people who do not respect the rule of French law. It's a tough spot for them. Do they change the law and in so doing lose some of their "frenchiness"?

11/08/2005 06:34:00 PM  
Blogger Marcus Aurelius said...

Sophia Phoster,

Having a job has a way keeping people out of trouble. In the UAE the young men had to have some sort of job (even it amounted to removing staples, rearranging forms, and restapling them or being the banks most highly paid coffee drinker) or be in trouble.

Part of the problem is exactly as you say it, but these young men have dreams and ambitions and if society doesn't channel that drive through productive work than it gets worked off in other ways. In France its the worst possible situation, young men, no job, and enough $ to keep themselves fed, clothed, and sheltered. So instead of worrying about feeding themselves they can plot how to take over their corner of the world, the more that get together the bigger that corner becomes.

"Idle hands are the devil's workshop" trite though it may be, its true.

11/08/2005 06:38:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

I'm watching a CSPAN rebroadcast of a great Senate panel convened today sometime to review alleged Saudi dissemination of - gasp - Wahhabist literature and its usual attendant borrowings from Czarists and Nazis and whatnot and I was wondering if anyone here knows what in the hell Anthony Cordesman's major malfunction is? First of all, the guy looks like he's going to cry at any second. Second of all, he can't even bring himself to say that, for example, Saudi Arabia did not publicly condemn Ahmedinejad's "wipe out Israel" comment, which is either a yes or no answer, never mind what justification one might provide. What exactly is Cordesman's background? Is he another one of these analysts who gets all of the big relevant things wrong all the time, or what?

11/08/2005 06:53:00 PM  
Blogger Heloise said...

Idle hands, yes but have these hands been idle, stealing jewelry and cars and watches and cash, busily entering names and numbers into their stolen phones and computers, raping girls?

For them you see, theft, arson, rape, even murder are not "bad" actions if done for allah's cause, for the straight path.

Now their elders and preachers have told them they shouldn't work blindly so as to harm the innocents of their ummah, and they will take more care. As a reward for their hard work, they will receive some of the jiza tax from the dhimmi french. The smartest will be taken to camps and trained further. The ummah treasures the jihadi as the most noble of believers who will go directly to paradise if killed in war.

And soon, the mohammedans will be in the majority and then they can have their own law, the sharia, the law of allah,that is perfect and not man-made by unbelievers.

This is the pattern of 1,400 years and its dna lies in three books,
the koran, the hadiths and sira

11/08/2005 07:07:00 PM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

France got carried away with their multicultural ideology and poured immigrants into the funnel faster than they drained out and got frenchified.

Wouldn't the Muslim high birth-rate have something to do with that funnel over-flowing with unwanted bodies?

11/08/2005 07:29:00 PM  
Blogger sam said...

Restive France Declares State of Emergency:

Communist Party leader Marie-George Buffet warned that the decree could enflame rioters. "It could be taken anew as a sort of challenge to carry out more violence," she said.

French historians say the rioting is more widespread and destructive in material terms than the May riots of 1968, when university students erected barricades in Paris' Latin Quarter and across France, throwing paving stones at police. That unrest, a turning point in modern France, led to a general strike by 10 million workers and forced President Gen. Charles de Gaulle to dissolve parliament and fire Premier Georges Pompidou.

Restive France

11/08/2005 07:44:00 PM  
Blogger trangbang68 said...

It may sound off topic,but its not really.I just finished reading Vince Flynn's new novel"Consent to Kill'Like his last novel,"Memorial Day",it fleshes out the essential conflict in the west between politicos,Quislings,cowards and idiots on one hand and steel-eyed men of action on the other.
Europe has bent over for the former for so long,the latter hardly can be found.In America(and Australia and to some extent the UK),there are still men with a heart for the fight.They are our hope.
Does it matter if it's Intifada or Watts?Either way you have to drop the hammer on the rabble.

11/08/2005 07:54:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

Carradine - the Communist government told everybody to report to the doctor's office and tell of ANY sickness you had... people reported for 2 months... then a small percentage who had VD were called back, and shot! Now, 30 years later, the people aren't gonna be fooled again! Come in for SARS?

I'll call bullshit on that.

Moron99 - The difference between the US and France is that the US has not poured immigrants into the funnel more quickly than they drain out into an americanized social order.

I'll call bullshit on that, too.

Perhaps you missed the fact that we have 11-12 million illegal aliens in America and Spanish-speaking Mexicans now form the demographic majority in much of the American Southwest.

Marcus Aurelius - "Idle hands are the devil's workshop" trite though it may be, its true.

Indeed. The most resentful people in America are multi-generation black parasites on welfare and wealthy white Leftists on the family trust fund. In the UK,idle elitists vie with Islamoids and anarchists on the dole as to who hates Western Civ more.

Dan writeswhat in the hell Anthony Cordesman's major malfunction is? First of all, the guy looks like he's going to cry at any second. Second of all, he can't even bring himself to say that, for example, Saudi Arabia did not publicly condemn Ahmedinejad's "wipe out Israel"

Saudi Arabia has put forth the (now) King Abdullah Plan, which will bring Saudi Arabia into recognizing the peaceful existence of Israel in return for reversing Zionist land and water grabs, stable borders. Until then, it remains an oppositional state. As a sovereign nation, it is under no more obligation to "condemn" another nation as the US is obligated to "condemn" say, Nigeria for election irregularilities or Brazil was obligated to "condemn" a Chinese general for saying he'd nuke America if we intervened in a Taiwan crisis.

Saudi Arabia remains deeply opposed to secret WMD stockpiles in the ME, be they Iraq's, Iran's, or Israel's. Saudi Arabia no more wants a nuclear armed Iran than theUK or the USA do.

11/08/2005 08:17:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

The simple math on Frances obligation to better the lives of Islamoids and give them better chances at flourishing in Europe as a way to prevent Islamoid violence.......

Toleration only works if it is two-way.

Number of French civilians owning property and businesses in Algeria and living there freely and openly and accepted as they undulge their religious and cultural practices:

ZERO

Number of ethnic Algerian civilians owning property and businesses in France and living there freely and openly and accepted as they undulge their religious and cultural practices:

4 million. Plus, 2 million other Islamoids from elsewhere.

If "Frenchness" is completely imcompatible with Islamic and Algerian society and culture, then preservation of those values in France by immigrants is guaranteed to introduce the same incompatibility. The only solution is kill the Islamoids or deport them.

Once upon a time, over a million French lived in Algeria, working, prospering, attending to their farms, businesses, and places of worship.

Now there are none.

11/08/2005 08:25:00 PM  
Blogger reliapundit said...

golly it ain't touhg to answer at all:

these thugs don't want to assimliate.
they don't graduate highschool.
they attack their sisters who don;t wear the hijab, or won;t marry their cousin.

just because they don't carry scimitars or korans doesn't make them secularists.

just becasue they are not in a formally named cell doesn't mean they are not terrorists.

what they are doing IS TERRORIZING france.

BOTTOM-LINE: this is an intifada becasue then perps identify themselves as MUSLIMS FIRST. and they believe that this gives them the right to attack and ioncite as they have been.

the islamothugs must be smashed. squashed. stomped on. erased. everywhere.

I AM NOT SAYING Muslims. Just the islamothugs/jihadoterrists.

The iraqis who want democracy are GREAT!!!!!

the iraqis who are using terror to fight demcracyy are islamothugs.

they must be erased. wiped off the face of the earth.

once and for all time.

11/08/2005 08:57:00 PM  
Blogger wretchard said...

The Associated Press is reporting that:

Rioters ignored the extraordinary security measures, which began Wednesday, as they looted and burned two superstores, set fire to a newspaper office and paralyzed France's second largest city's subway system with a gasoline bomb.

In the last thread's comments, I speculated that the rioters might switch from numerous Car-B-Q attacks to hits on a smaller number of high value targets. Has this happened? Too early to tell. But I think it bears watching.

11/08/2005 09:49:00 PM  
Blogger Mr.Atos said...

How about trying a guillotine?!... after midnight, of course.

11/08/2005 09:59:00 PM  
Blogger Mr.Atos said...

On a serious note... well, more rational anyway... Debka is reporting the deployment of a new slogan by the rioters,

(http://www.debkanews.com/article.php?aid=1107 )

"disturbing new slogans were hurled, depicting Paris as ”Baghdad-on-the Seine” and their campaign as the start of Europe’s Ramadan Intifada.

A single slogan made a mockery of president Jacques Chirac’s efforts of the last three years to distance France from President George W. Bush’s Iraq war."


Taken together with a recent comment on my latest post on this subject, echoing the sentiment "France is Bush's fault for riling up the (unidentified) marauders", it would seem to suggest that someone at the DU or MoveOn got the message to the rioters on how to best play violence to the movement's advantage. If Debka's reports are accurate, somehow I suspect we'll see more of this meme as the third week of the Western insurgency commences.

11/08/2005 10:12:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

reliapundit -

The iraqis who want democracy are GREAT!!!!!the iraqis who are using terror to fight demcracyy are islamothugs.

Be careful using the moronic Bush-Sharansky metric that Muslims favoring democracy are the noble, pure, peaceful Muslims and those thinking democracy is a bad thing at this stage in certain areas
of the Ummah are "islamothugs".

Nothing would please Islamofascists more than to see fair and open Democratic elections in Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and Pakistan.

As for "great people" who want democracy in Iraq, count among them the Kurds that wish to use terror on the Turks to carve out chunks of Turkey into a new Kurdish state centered in old northern Iraq, or the Shias that wish to have a state under partial Sharia (for now) in the South, or the Sunnis in the center, who would elect Saddam as their spokesman if they were allowed to exercise their "democratic rights".

Even the Right-Wing wingnut Sharansky knows democracy has limits. Sharansky was on a talk show with Buchanan exulting about Bush buying into his "Democracy is the cure" for radical Islam and how the recent elections in Iraq would end the insurgency and also opposing withdraw from Gaza. Sharansky gave the usual Zionist spiel about Gaza being sacred to Israel and Arabs have plenty of other land (mostly waterless desert) they could live in.

Buchanan said fine, keep Gaza, and keep the West Bank if you want it so much. Just give all the Palestinians the right to vote in common elections in a Israel-Palestine democracy. Sharansky said that was out of the question, because it would mean the death of Israel as a Jewish state.

11/08/2005 10:19:00 PM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

Agree with reliapundit. Let's call a terrorist a terrorist, whether they're terrorizing with molotov cocktails or dynamite belts or suicide bomb cars.

And then let's start to shoot to kill said terrorists who are roaming the streets ... terrorizing.

11/08/2005 10:29:00 PM  
Blogger ledger said...

"You're scaring the children," said one stocky woman... "We also have to live here, and we can't go on like this."

"I am not a terrorist, I'm a victim," responded one of the young men.

... At about 7:30 p.m., the police arrived and all debate ended... Molotov cocktails and stones filled the air, and a truck was set aflame. Soon, tear gas floated through the parking lots and halls of the high-rise apartment blocks that make up these faceless suburban neighborhoods.


I am not a terrorist, I'm a victim

One thing that is transparent about this story is that it is well choreographed. Where have we seen that before? Baghdad Bob? The PA funeral precession where the "dead martyr" gets out of his coffin and walks away? In this case The "news crews" show-up and just in time to interview a poor rioter as he repeats a scripted "I am not a terrorist, I'm a victim" line. Then the riots commence in front of the cameras. I don't buy it.

I get the sense that there was considerable planning in this whole event. And, It still looks like a probing operation - and a successful one at that (BBQ a few cars and get a nice "cost of living" raise in next welfare check). Why fight in Iraq when one can knock over France? Test defenses first. Attack later.

I agree with Heloise that radical Islam does not believe in boards. Expansion is their goal.

Heloise: Islam is one community of believers (the ummah) and recognizes no nation state as having power above their shariah law, for all the world is allah's and therefore, the world belongs to the believers and until this world is all one ummah, there will be permanent war (jihad).

[and]

Postings on muslim weblogs reveal that there is a name for this aspect of the French jihad, operation Midnight Sun.
Jihad in Europe

I don't think much fundamentally will change in France after the riots die down - except the Radical Wing of Islam will have gain a lot of information. As Sophia Phoster notes: "The possibility of the French elites changing their lifestyle to accomodate the ingrate rioters is zero. Likewise the chance that the Islamic rioters will change their lifestyle to accomodate the elites is also zero."

I have to agree with Captain Ed. There seems to be outside coordination.

[Captain Ed]

That prelude certainly seems more than a mere coincidence to me. Within six weeks of the GSPC announcement, we see a massive and coordinated uprising originating from the ghettoes in which Algerian and other Muslim refugees and their families live. The "riots' have sophisticated coordination between cell leaders, using the Internet and instant messaging as well as cell phones...


CQ: French Riots Come After Multiple Warnings Of Islamist Attacks


French citizens to train in the Middle East and return home to carry out terrorist attacks... One French official said the extremists were using a virtual "underground railroad" through Syria to spirit European and Middle Eastern citizens into and out of Iraq. What's new...is that the French cell under investigation "is linked with networks in Iraq, right now, through an individual based in Syria. Now we're finding camps in Syria and Lebanon, and it's the same pattern, training in explosives and chemical weapons, which is an obsession of the jihadists."


France Says Extremists Are Enlisting Its Citizens


When we see an large explosive device go off we will know for sure.

11/08/2005 10:33:00 PM  
Blogger Sophia Phoster said...

I love the Aussies. The Anglosphere needs irreverant cowboys and the Aussies are stepping up. This from Arty at Tim Blair's blog.

France’s military options are bleak, deploy the French Army (too easily confused with ‘destroy the French Army’). How about using that European ‘Rapid Reaction Force’. Get it? Rapid_Reaction_Force. Is there a word in there that comes close to describing it? As a last resort they can always deploy the German army. The French are already accustomed to seeing them in the streets periodically.

I'm sitting here laughing like a fool. Enjoy.

11/09/2005 12:51:00 AM  
Blogger NN said...

Wretchard wrote:

"The important thing is for the French not to morally surrender; and for that they must repudiate the shapeless garment that has occluded even themselves."

Read Robert Tracinski's editorial about the this at coxandforkum.com

"The Multiculturalists accept the vicious Nazi assumption that an individual's ideas and values are determined by his race -- but, they say, the cardinal sin is to be too racially self-assertive, that is, the worst thing you can do is to assert the uuniversal truth or superiority of your own group's culture at the expense of the ideas and values of others. "All cultures are equal" is the Multiculturalist theory. In practice, this means that we must be ready to subordinate our own culture -- the culture of Western civilization -- in order to show our "respect" for the cultures of every other group on earth, from the Eskimos and Patagonians to the culture of, say, the North African Arabs. ...

But nowhere are the results more ominous than in France. The riots there are described as the product of France's failure to "assimilate" Muslim immigrants from North Africa, and various reasons are cited for this failure. But the most fundamental reason is that Europe has long ago lost any real interest in assimilating its immigrants. Indeed, it has rejected the very idea of assimilation. To induct others into European culture--why, that kind of cultural self-assertion would be just like the Nazis. Instead, Europe has gone out of its way to "accommoddate" other cultures -- by encouraging immigrants to live for decades sealed off in their own enclaves."

This has been said before but is worth repeating. With multi-culturalism there is nothing to assimilate to, just a vaccuum of worn-out slogans. Everybody's supposed to be nice and polite. Except everybody isn't. And then nice and polite conditioned people can just stand and watch and sputter.

11/09/2005 01:43:00 AM  
Blogger Rizalist said...

NOT what it IS, but what it CAN BE. Assume it is Watts. There is no reason in memetics why it cannot transmogrify into Intifada, or even worse with a lil help. This can be observed, measured and characterized and the very idea of evolution among memes, tested.

11/09/2005 01:57:00 AM  
Blogger Sophia Phoster said...

The problem is solved. The French government is increasing the amount of welfare payments and creating a whole new bureaucracy of agents to stick in mayorial offices to make sure the dumb locals don't get confused between legalite and egalite. See Le Monde.

Now really. Did anybody expect somebody named Dominique DeVillipen to actually have cahones? The guy still thinks that Wardrobe Secretary is a cabinet position.

11/09/2005 04:41:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Tony Blankley, Newt's Press Secretary, back when the Republicans had my support, writes in a story titled:
"Islamist Threat in France"
" ... Even when the current violence subsides -- even when the French government attempts to placate their radical Muslim population by offering more welfare benefits and programs -- it will not be the end of the story. A new benchmark of the possible will have been established. The flaccid and timorous response of the French government will only increase the radicalizing Muslim elements' contempt for Western cultural weakness. ... "

11/09/2005 05:04:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

In the WaPo, David Ignatius writes an article about Why France is Burning. He begins by making reference to James Baldwin
and Race Politics.

" ... France has scarcely begun that journey. But the events of the past two weeks suggest that the day of reckoning Baldwin foresaw may finally have arrived. Over the past two weeks, more than 5,000 cars have been set ablaze. More than 70 police and 30 firefighters have been injured in the violence. The angry kids haven't been intimidated by hard-line Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy, who said he wanted to cleanse the "scum" in the suburbs with a water gun. And they haven't been soothed, either, by the calls for reconciliation by French Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin. In fact, the catfight between these two rival politicians has made the crisis worse -- devaluing both carrots and sticks. ..."

Mr Ignatius does not even mention the Religious or International aspects of the Francofada.

11/09/2005 05:30:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

On an issue that is possibly related to the Francofada, Syria. Mr Dennis Ross writes:
" ... Ironically, the threat to the regime today might come more from those within Syria who feel that to forestall international sanctions, the regime must be removed. The fear of the Muslim Brotherhood is unlikely to deter a military-led coup, particularly because the military (which is essentially secular) might see itself as the protector of Syria against the Brotherhood. As such, the alternative to President Assad's Alawi faction might not be the Muslim Brotherhood but a militarily-led Sunni-Alawi dominated regime. It wouldn't be democratic, but it would seek to reduce Syria's isolation. ... "

11/09/2005 05:40:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

In the USA Today the story line for the Francofada is all about Social Justice, and the lack of it in France.
" ... One native French teen sympathized with the protesters and blamed Sarkozy for the escalation. "(Sarkozy) places great pressure on the youth," he told Al-Jazeera TV. "I would tell him, give them more freedoms, try to understand them and address their concerns."

For politicians who point to the riots as a sign of increasing Islamic radicalism and the start of a so-called clash of civilizations between the Muslim East and the Christian West, all evidence points to the opposite.

In a rare show of unity, the Islamic community is working in tandem with the French authorities, which requested that local Muslim imams help restore peace. The imams appealed for calm but to no avail. This week, the Union of French Islamic Organizations stepped up efforts by issuing a fatwa, or religious decree, condemning the riots.

The fact is that most youth do not identify with Islam or religious leaders in this situation because their discontent is not about religion. It's about justice. ... "

11/09/2005 05:48:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

WSJ Online has an editorial about that old time Iraqi exile and current Iraqi Deputy Prime Minister, Mr Chalabi:

" ... But Mr. Chalabi's prominence in Iraqi politics vindicates those who saw him as far back as the early 1990s as a believer in a democratic and pro-Western Iraq. ... "

Mr Chalabi is, if nothing else, a survivor. The Journal believes he could be the next Prime Minister, in Iraq.

11/09/2005 06:00:00 AM  
Blogger playah grrl said...

Eleanor, bzzzzt!!! Wrong.
The correct answer to Wretchard's question is, BOTH.
One of the riotous "youths" delinated the men he most admired--Osama bin Laden and Rodney King.

11/09/2005 06:56:00 AM  
Blogger Sophia Phoster said...

In a rare show of unity, the Islamic community is working in tandem with the French authorities

Glad that was cleared up. I otherwise might have thought that the "youths" tossing Molotov Cocktails while shouting "Allah is Greater" were the Islamic community. We've all had four years to get a street degree in Islam Today, and we've had fifty years to observe the body count from pouring billions of dollars and dedicating miles of newsprint to the Great Palestinian Cause. And still the public opinion shapers want us to go deaf, dumb and blind over the notion that Islam is a political ideology with very open and very well defined objectives.

11/09/2005 06:59:00 AM  
Blogger Papa Bear said...

Even if France pacifies its welfare class, it still has a problem. The expanding population of its welfare class will eventually overwhelm the middle-class's ability to support it.

You think they have riots now? Wait til the week the welfare checks don't come.

Their only solution is to dump the welfare state. The most humane solution would be to say to its current crop of recipients: "Welfare for existing recipients will cease in ten years. There will be no welfare payments for new people (if you have more kids, your payments will NOT go up). If you move to some other country that will take you, we will continue sending your check there for the next ten years. Move. Good luck"

11/09/2005 07:15:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

c4: Sharansky gave the usual Zionist spiel about Gaza being sacred to Israel and Arabs have plenty of other land (mostly waterless desert) they could live in.

Buchanan said fine, keep Gaza, and keep the West Bank if you want it so much. Just give all the Palestinians the right to vote in common elections in a Israel-Palestine democracy. Sharansky said that was out of the question, because it would mean the death of Israel as a Jewish state.

Yes it is "usual", after all if you had no "zionist/jews" in gaza you would not have the Samson story in your bible... as well as MOST of the west bank.

The arab world has 21 nations, comprising of hundreds of millions square miles, yes mostly dry arid lands, (same with southwestern usa but i dont see you offering up the dry spots to mexico) Israel has already returned 99.999% of all distputed lands, the areas now in contention are less than 10% of the west bank, so tell me c4, why should israel give any of the west bank to your bud's the palios? are they a nation? were they a nation in 1967 when the lands were captured in the 1st place? if the answer is no, they Israel (by UN laws) has as much right to any unpopulated west bank lands it chooses. If you want to talk about "land and water" grabs, please tell us oh wise one, what about Lebanon and it's diverting of river water? Is that not a water grab? or tell me oh wise one, what about the ARAB land grabs of jewish property in Hebron? or does that not count?

C$, get a grip, your friends the palestinian, are cut from the same cloth as those in france burning cars...

Give them land, money, greenhouses, jobs, housing and they still will slit your throat...

so please, you and Pat, go live in their democracy for a while....

11/09/2005 07:18:00 AM  
Blogger Solomon2 said...

Cedarford, can you supply references for your Sharansky info?

For the rest, let's try to stick to the subject, without digressions.

11/09/2005 07:44:00 AM  
Blogger Matoko Kusanagi said...

Den-Beste-sama has started posting at Redstate. Read what he has to say on the Car-b-ques here!

11/09/2005 07:55:00 AM  
Blogger EddieP said...

France doesn't have time to institute assimilation and other corrective policies now. Every proposition would take years even if it were doable. It is way too late. The mozzies are taking the government down with out firing a shot. Dominique has offered up a nice plate of goodies without even having anyone demand it. If I were the muslim imams, I'd say to Abu Chirac, OK, we'll stop the riots, and accept your offer as a starting point for negotiation. However, we believe that to show good faith you must double the cash and other tribute and we demand total autonomy for our people. What can the French do at that point? The Imams may not do that, but if they did, France is phucked. There's is no way out without enormous bloodshed, or a weather miracle which brings immediate long term freezing weather to Northern Europe.

11/09/2005 08:01:00 AM  
Blogger Aristides said...

The play here, for the Muslims, is to double down. De Villepin's offer is an 11 on the table, and staying is ill-advised. Hit me, and it is more likely than not that 21 is right around the corner.

This offer is a gift horse from the government of France. Stare it in the mouth and send it back. The next gift will be land and bounty, and a staging area for the takeover of France.

Also read Jonah Goldberg's take:
(http://corner.nationalreview.com/05_11_06_corner-archive.asp#082076)

Indeed, the Chirac government has a very difficult problem in front of it. The Imams want to be the peacemakers here. They're issuing fatwahs telling rioters that they can't be good Muslims and keep rioting. On the face of it, this sounds like an attractive offer and constructive effort. But if the government accepts their help, then these riots will become "Muslim riots" and the Islamic establishment in France will not only get credit for putting a stop to them, but they'll be empowered by the Islamic "street" in France to make demands on the government. Or at least that's the risk the government faces. Frankly I think in the long run it makes more sense to stick to the talking point that these kids are "scum." If you Islamify them, you give them political credibility they don't deserve and invite all sorts of factors which will make France's long term structural problems even worse.

11/09/2005 08:42:00 AM  
Blogger Sophia Phoster said...

I'm pretty sure that the peace-loving imams being touted by the chatteristas are in the employ of the French government and have as much street-cred as Villipin in an NFL locker room.

One other point of interest in the referenced artilce is that the highest number of jihadi imports in Iraq are Algerian. So now we not only have to be deaf, dumb, and blind but also have to believe that while Algerian jihadis are streaming into the Leviathan's meat grinder they are at the same time avoiding the possibility of being hair sprayed in la belle France.

11/09/2005 09:04:00 AM  
Blogger cn said...

Hello. What an excellent post and history lesson.

I have to laugh at the thought that these 'poor French youths" will have even the vaguest notion of their own (Magreb)history with the laws now under implementation.

Whether this law or one specially designed for this situation at the end of the day, the State has no higher calling than the protection of its citizens.

So far, the French Communist Party leader, the leftist "Le Monde" and my own CBC Radio are the only ones I have seen raising this specter.

Good grief, these are 15-20/25 year olds(note: those fanning the flames, organizing and encouraging are a different issue)!

Their knowledge base likely doesn't extend much past hip-hop lyrics and the latest Al Jazerra rants. Remember these are the youth who were cheering for Saddam, the modern (self-proclaimed)Saladin.

On the other hand if they have such knowledge, why, they are not quite the disenfranchised and misunderstood youth they are made out to be by the LLL and the MSM.

We must remember, they have been fed a strict diet of anti- Iraq War and anti-West diatribes by the French media in particularly by Chirac and De Villepin for years.

One other aspect that is often lost in the smoke is the cultural difference between our Western Judeo-Christian tradition and the Arab/Muslim tradition.

Signs of weakness by our protagonists in our concept generally demand some attempts to reconcile. In the other tradition, weakness is a sign of imminent victory.

Given the "plan" just put forward by the PM, these bandaids will be seen just as Arafat saw any Israeli concession, as merely the new bar against which they would launch ever greater demands.

Lock and load.

cn

11/09/2005 09:17:00 AM  
Blogger cn said...

Hello. What an excellent post and history lesson.

I have to laugh at the thought that these 'poor French youths" will have even the vaguest notion of their own (Magreb)history with the laws now under implementation.

Whether this law or one specially designed for this situation at the end of the day, the State has no higher calling than the protection of its citizens.

So far, the French Communist Party leader, the leftist "Le Monde" and my own CBC Radio are the only ones I have seen raising this specter.

Good grief, these are 15-20/25 year olds(note: those fanning the flames, organizing and encouraging are a different issue)!

Their knowledge base likely doesn't extend much past hip-hop lyrics and the latest Al Jazerra rants. Remember these are the youth who were cheering for Saddam, the modern (self-proclaimed)Saladin.

On the other hand if they have such knowledge, why, they are not quite the disenfranchised and misunderstood youth they are made out to be by the LLL and the MSM.

We must remember, they have been fed a strict diet of anti- Iraq War and anti-West diatribes by the French media in particularly by Chirac and De Villepin for years.

One other aspect that is often lost in the smoke is the cultural difference between our Western Judeo-Christian tradition and the Arab/Muslim tradition.

Signs of weakness by our protagonists in our concept generally demand some attempts to reconcile. In the other tradition, weakness is a sign of imminent victory.

Given the "plan" just put forward by the PM, these bandaids will be seen just as Arafat saw any Israeli concession, as merely the new bar against which they would launch ever greater demands.

Lock and load.

colin nelson

11/09/2005 09:20:00 AM  
Blogger cn said...

Hello. What an excellent post and history lesson.

I have to laugh at the thought that these 'poor French youths" will have even the vaguest notion of their own (Magreb)history with the laws now under implementation.

Whether this law or one specially designed for this situation at the end of the day, the State has no higher calling than the protection of its citizens.

So far, the French Communist Party leader, the leftist "Le Monde" and my own CBC Radio are the only ones I have seen raising this specter.

Good grief, these are 15-20/25 year olds(note: those fanning the flames, organizing and encouraging are a different issue)!

Their knowledge base likely doesn't extend much past hip-hop lyrics and the latest Al Jazerra rants. Remember these are the youth who were cheering for Saddam, the modern (self-proclaimed)Saladin.

On the other hand if they have such knowledge, why, they are not quite the disenfranchised and misunderstood youth they are made out to be by the LLL and the MSM.

We must remember, they have been fed a strict diet of anti- Iraq War and anti-West diatribes by the French media in particularly by Chirac and De Villepin for years.

One other aspect that is often lost in the smoke is the cultural difference between our Western Judeo-Christian tradition and the Arab/Muslim tradition.

Signs of weakness by our protagonists in our concept generally demand some attempts to reconcile. In the other tradition, weakness is a sign of imminent victory.

Given the "plan" just put forward by the PM, these bandaids will be seen just as Arafat saw any Israeli concession, as merely the new bar against which they would launch ever greater demands.

Lock and load.

colin nelson

11/09/2005 09:21:00 AM  
Blogger Engineer-Poet said...

Wretchard,

This is OT, but pertinent to the entire blog.  Could you PLEASE add dates to comment timestamps so we can tell if the discussion was going on today, or ended last month?

This is not difficult to change.  Go to:
Dashboard -> Change settings -> Comments -> Comments timestamp format.

Pick something that includes the date.  Save settings.  Republish.  You're
done!

11/09/2005 09:40:00 AM  
Blogger jim said...

Watts or Initifada? One answer is that it's an early Intifada, but being treated as Watts for very good reason. Chirac is nothing if not clever, and what his government is doing/not doing, saying and being mum about may have checkmated the Islamists this round. But it's still early in the match, and Chirac always proves too clever for France's good.

Count me among the disbelievers that this uprising is a spontaneous eruption triggered by a couple of boys' deaths who managed to kill themselves. We know about the recent Algerian communiques over targeting France and also the subsequent French round-up of terror suspects (done fairly quietly, although we did hear about the stinger missiles that were recovered). Imo, Chirac's gov knows that these 'riots' were orchestrated.

But, by the Left doing its knee-jerk thing that it's all about Poverty and Race (which, on the face of it, wouldn't explain why suddenly now and also why mostly North African Muslim immigrants), it has given Chirac a face-saving meme to explain his reaction: namely that this civil disorder IS and only is about race and lack of opportunity and that, rather than hostilely confront them, France needs to help the banlieu immigrants integrate into larger society. This is a pretty smart move that keeps the Left and press with him in his policy to come. Chirac looks compassionate, self-critically 'honest' and like an ami to the aggrieved African immigrant community that, he tells the world, only wishes to share in the great French dream as Frenchmen. Best part of the 'it's only about race and poverty' angle is that social and economic integration are precisely what the Islamists don't want and their agenda of demanding Muslim enclaves is frustrated (although concessions may be quietly being made to get cooperation now).

Chirac appears to be leveraging the momentum of the riots to deal with the Muslim immigrant problem in the best way he can. By not publicly admitting the Islamist component in play, he doesn't have to confront it head-on and lose, which he surely would. Meanwhile, his minimalist approach to rioters pays off, if they finally fizzle out without further 'provocation', and police and anti-terrorist agents can grab key gangsters and more suspected Islamists in an unpublicized but hard crack-down. Link. I imagine they'll be plenty of deportations and more restricted immigration, if not by official policy, then via bureaucratic delay and 'snags'.

Iran, who ultimately could be behind the Algerians' push against France, seems to have stepped into one PC trap by trying to lay another when it condemns "racist" France (via LGF). Why isn't Iran charging the French with discrimination against Islam, when Europe is reflexively vulnerable to charges of being insufficiently multicultural, and racial integration policy actually undercuts multiculturalism and Islamism in a wonderful way? Maybe Iranian hard-liners are looking at a long-term strategy of inflaming racial resentments, since they have more resonance with most of Africa and also with Democrats and blacks in the US...

Of course, Chirac's strategy of meeting this probing Intifada incident with calls for integration won't work if his gov doesn't actually work at and succeed in integrating a good percentage of immigrants, which seems an impossible task at this point. If Chirac is just pacifying with words of intent, increased welfare bennies and behind-the-scenes carrot and stick stuff, the Islamists will gain traction and there'll be more 'unrest' based on new and improved outrage and grievance, and this time the demands for separate and special accommodation will be loud and clear. But, at least for now, Chirac may have made the best move he could to buy time for more counter-terrorism measures and to either sincerely attempt to address the demographic time-bomb or to cynically punt the jihad problem into the next guy's presidency, as Clinton did.

11/09/2005 10:00:00 AM  
Blogger jim said...

Always good to open with a misspelling. Correction: Whats or Intifada.

11/09/2005 10:03:00 AM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

den Beste says (via link provided through RedState):

Things to watch for: the first policeman killed by gunfire, the first rioter killed by gunfire, the first use of French army units in the cités, the first bombing, the rate at which this spreads elsewhere in France and in Europe as a whole.

11/09/2005 10:39:00 AM  
Blogger Old Dad said...

Great question for the mid and long term, but I'm not sure that an answer will help France today.

It is essential that the government restore order--now. The alternative is national suicide.

It seems impossible to me that a majority of Frenchmen would passively surrender their culture to either jihadists or disaffected "youth."

What's lacking is leadership.

11/09/2005 10:51:00 AM  
Blogger James Kielland said...

From Wikipedia:

Watts Riot

"The Watts Riots were a large-scale civil disorder lasting six days in the Watts neighborhood of Los Angeles, California, in 1965. During the riots, 34 people were officially reported killed, 1,100 people were injured, 4,000 people were arrested, 600 buildings were damaged or destroyed, and an estimated $100 million in damage was caused."

I'd say we are way premature to consider this comparable to Watts.

11/09/2005 11:03:00 AM  
Blogger James Kielland said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

11/09/2005 11:11:00 AM  
Blogger James Kielland said...

Again, from Wikipedia:

1992 Los Angeles Riots

""Estimates of the number of lives lost during the unrest vary between 50 and 60, with as many as 2,000 persons injured. Estimates of the material damage done vary between about $800 million and $1 billion. Approximately 3,600 fires were set, destroying 1,100 buildings, with fire calls coming once every minute at some points. About 10,000 people were arrested. . .

. . . Smaller, concomitant unrest occurred in other United States cities, especially Las Vegas, Atlanta, and San Francisco, but also including Oakland, New York, Seattle, Chicago, Phoenix, Madison, and even the Canadian city of Toronto."

My Goodness. All across the continent of North America.

11/09/2005 11:20:00 AM  
Blogger SF Coletta said...

The difference is that The American blacks were marching and rioting (WATTS)to be agknowledged as AMERICANS.
The current African Muslims have about as much interest in being French as I do.

Answer = Intifada

11/09/2005 11:26:00 AM  
Blogger James Kielland said...

And to what purpose was Damian "Football" Williams marching/rioting?

11/09/2005 11:29:00 AM  
Blogger Charles said...

France: Sarkozy asks for expulsion of convicted foreigners

11/09/2005 11:39:00 AM  
Blogger SF Coletta said...

Damian "Football" Williams ???

Wrong riot.. I think he was involved in the Rodney King related riot and not the 1960's Watts incident.

11/09/2005 11:42:00 AM  
Blogger Charles said...

Far-Right Leader: Riots Only the Start
Nov 09 2:08 PM US/Eastern
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/11/09/D8DP4IE02.html

By JOHN LEICESTER
Associated Press Writer


PARIS


French far-right leader Jean-Marie Le Pen claimed Wednesday his National Front party has been "submerged" with prospective members and supportive e-mail since rioting erupted in heavily immigrant communities near Paris.

In an interview with The Associated Press, Le Pen described the recent violence as "just the start" of conflicts caused by "massive immigration from countries of the Third World that is threatening not just France but the whole continent."



Le Pen said people with immigrant backgrounds who commit crimes should be stripped of their French nationality and sent "back to their country of origin."

11/09/2005 11:45:00 AM  
Blogger James Kielland said...

SF Coletta,

Yes, I know. But I'd posted both the facts from both Watts and the '92 riots, showing that they appear to be more significant than the French riots to this point. I would also suggest, although I may certainly be wrong, that your characterization of the Watts Rioter's motives may be a bit optimistic. In every riot there is probably people who feel they are acting out of some grievance... and then a whole lot more trouble is caused by people who enjoy the excuse to make mayhem. I suspect that was the case in the Watts Riots, the 1992 riots, and the current French riots, as well.

I reject the either/or alternative of Watts or Intifada and suggest that what we're seeing is probably neither.

11/09/2005 11:52:00 AM  
Blogger James Kielland said...

"Le Pen said people with immigrant backgrounds who commit crimes should be stripped of their French nationality and sent "back to their country of origin.""

All French citizens are equal, but some are more equal than others. Wow, now THAT is something to riot over.

11/09/2005 11:53:00 AM  
Blogger Charles said...

France to expel foreign rioters
DOSE ^ | November 9, 2005 | Reuters
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1518891/posts

Posted on 11/09/2005 11:14:08 AM PST by 11th_VA


PARIS (Reuters) - French Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy has ordered the expulsion of all foreigners convicted of involvement in two weeks of urban riots.

Sarkozy, who has previously thrown radical Muslim preachers out of the country for breaching French laws, told the National Assembly lower house of parliament on Wednesday that 122 foreigners had been convicted of playing a role in the unrest.

"I have asked prefects that foreigners here legally or illegally, who have been convicted (over the unrest) be expelled without delay from our territory," he said of the top government officials who oversee France's 96 administrative districts.

The order would also include those who have a residency permit, Sarkozy said.

"For when one has the honor of having a residency permit, the least one can say is that one shouldn't be going around getting arrested for provoking urban violence," he said.

Sarkozy did not give the nationalities of any of the foreigners whose expulsion he had ordered, and did not say how many would be expelled.

He has made a name for himself with tough law and order policies which have helped make him a frontrunner to lead the center right into a presidential elections in 2007.

But opponents, including within his own ruling Union for a Popular Majority, say his strong language over troublemakers in tough neighborhoods helped stoke the two-week-old wave of violence in poor suburbs around the country.

The latest opinion poll shows support for Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin, his bitter rival and another possible contender for 2007, has overtaken that for Sarkozy.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

11/09/2005 12:18:00 PM  
Blogger Charles said...

France to expel foreign rioters
DOSE ^ | November 9, 2005 | Reuters
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1518891/posts

Posted on 11/09/2005 11:14:08 AM PST by 11th_VA


PARIS (Reuters) - French Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy has ordered the expulsion of all foreigners convicted of involvement in two weeks of urban riots.

Sarkozy, who has previously thrown radical Muslim preachers out of the country for breaching French laws, told the National Assembly lower house of parliament on Wednesday that 122 foreigners had been convicted of playing a role in the unrest.

"I have asked prefects that foreigners here legally or illegally, who have been convicted (over the unrest) be expelled without delay from our territory," he said of the top government officials who oversee France's 96 administrative districts.

The order would also include those who have a residency permit, Sarkozy said.

"For when one has the honor of having a residency permit, the least one can say is that one shouldn't be going around getting arrested for provoking urban violence," he said.

Sarkozy did not give the nationalities of any of the foreigners whose expulsion he had ordered, and did not say how many would be expelled.

He has made a name for himself with tough law and order policies which have helped make him a frontrunner to lead the center right into a presidential elections in 2007.

But opponents, including within his own ruling Union for a Popular Majority, say his strong language over troublemakers in tough neighborhoods helped stoke the two-week-old wave of violence in poor suburbs around the country.

The latest opinion poll shows support for Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin, his bitter rival and another possible contender for 2007, has overtaken that for Sarkozy.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

11/09/2005 12:18:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

from debka:

At least 53 deaths confirmed, scores reported, 200 injured in the blasts minutes apart at the US-owned Radisson Hotel, the Grand Hyatt and Days Inn Hotel, patronized by tourists and foreign contractors going in and out of Iraq. Jordan is long under threat of terror attack by al Qaeda’s Abu Musab al Zarqawi, himself a Jordanian Palestinian.

So I guess Jordan really is occupied palestinian terrority!

land for peace...

11/09/2005 01:52:00 PM  
Blogger gdude said...

james,

Isn't that so gentle of the disaffected "French"? They're so PC in their rioting (not like the old days during the Revolution, when the White guys were doing the badness) that they've mostly avoided the loss of life and limited their destruction of property.

Don't know what the schools, churches, factories, etc. come to, but by my count, about 6,400 cars have been torched X $15,000/car avg gives us $96,000,000 in cars alone. If we take the $800 million supposed tab for the Watts riots, and ignoring a factor of at least 3.6 for inflation since 1965, your point holds some quantitative water.

But its not about metrics. Its about Frenchmen deciding what it means to be French. Ditto for the rest of Europe. Ditto for Canada, Australia and New Zealand (to where all the Dutch are fleeing the Muslim hordes in their country.) Ditto the U.S.

11/09/2005 02:26:00 PM  
Blogger gdude said...

porker,

Easy on C4. He explained how France can rid itself of its Muslim hordes. Israel could do the same -- if only it had the will. In fact, Israel can be said to be the most advanced case of what ails the West. Now the "peace process" has come to France.

Does the term balkanization mean anything to anyone?

11/09/2005 02:37:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

gdude said...
porker,

Easy on C4. He explained how France can rid itself of its Muslim hordes. Israel could do the same -- if only it had the will. In fact, Israel can be said to be the most advanced case of what ails the West. Now the "peace process" has come to France.


actually israel aint the same, israel doesnt have problems (of any major amount) with it's arab citizens, it may not be a perfect society however they enjoy great civil liberties as compared to ANY other arab country in the area.

the problem is the "palestinians" of gaza and west bank, now that they see the are impodent to destroy israel from the outside, they are now wanting to "vote" it out of being from the inside. Newsflash, the overwhelming majority of arabs living inside of israel in no way want to EVER be citizens of "Palestine" and are quite content with being a minority in a Jewish state. Otherwise, would it not be funny as hell if Israel unilaterally took Israeli arab villages that abutted upto the green line and simply "transferred" the ownership to Abbas?

I could see the screams, ethnic cleansing! except Israel could GIVE the land, towns and arab people to Palestine.

Yes the so called palestinians are getting what they wished for, self determination, may their import of heavy weapons, rockets and ammo all blow up in their schools, mosques, nurseries and hospitals/ammo dumps...

ha ha hah aha haha ha

11/09/2005 02:58:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Political Theater
Jordan is hit by three homicide bombers in "Western" Hotels, at least 57 dead, over 300 WIA.
The Francofada carries on, spreading spontaneously across France and Western Europe.

Chavez leads anti US rallies in Argentina, stealing the lime lightfrom moderate South American leaders.

No connections, not related.

11/09/2005 03:00:00 PM  
Blogger jim said...

Sounds like some Arabs have benefited from their university education in the West:

"There are no puzzles here. The core problem is mass degradation and alienation manifesting themselves in ... belts of educated, usually unemployed, young men throughout Arab and Asian urban areas; and in parallel urban zones of mass disenfranchisement and marginalization," said Rami Khouri, writing Wednesday in the Lebanon Daily Star."

11/09/2005 04:50:00 PM  
Blogger Cutler said...

"That these disturbances would come in France though is a bit surprising. I always thought France was much more open minded when it came to being French citizen than countries like Germany. At least France has a history of taking in immigrants."

The problem here is that you are correct, but only to a certain extent and under certain conditions. The French have always thought they were open-minded about outsiders, so long as those outsiders recognized the gloriousness of France. France, for example, was the first country to grant Jews full civil rights on the continent, but the implicit assumption was that these rights were only good so long as the Jews completely assimilated and shed Jewish identity.

Jews who didn't such as foreign refugees who fled Spain and Germany during the 1930s, where discriminated against, marginalized, and left in ghettos. Drancy, a French concentration camp, was founded for Jewish and Spanish Republican refugees even before the Nazis invaded and occupied France. These people were susequently handed over to the Germans by the gendarmes for disposal, but many of them were rounded up well before the Germans ever arrived.

The problem here is that the Muslims of course do not want to be French, and France itself is divided. The multiculturalist are determined to appease them, and more traditional elements of France want to stick to the centuries old formula of demanding assimilation.

11/09/2005 05:09:00 PM  
Blogger sam said...

Hundreds of cars burned in French violence:

The opposition Socialists have voiced only muted criticism of the emergency measures, passed in 1955 when Paris feared an insurgency in its then colony of Algeria could spread to France.

The Socialists used the measures in the mid-1980s to quell unrest in France's Pacific territory of New Caledonia.

Opposition Socialists

11/09/2005 07:06:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

c:
Watts or Initifada?
Correction:
Whats or Intifada.

---
Exactly! Good Question:

What's an Initifada?
The beginning of a riot race?

d,
(yslexic)

11/09/2005 07:54:00 PM  
Blogger trangbang68 said...

James K.,
This insurrection more closely resembles 1992 LA riots than Watts of 1965.
Watts was part of nationwide racial turbulence with similar serious turmoil in Detroit and Newark.It was partly fueled by the schism between M.L.King's Gandhi inspired protests and Stokely Carmichael-Rap Brown calls for revolutionary action.
The Watts casualties were largely the result of tough police tactics in the hardnose LAPD of Chief Parker.
In 1992,craven local pols and inept police leadership left the field of battle to thugs like "Football Williams'I'll never forget Ted Koppel giving a platform to gang thugs like L'il Monster Kody to pontificate.It only inspired other criminals to do what they do best.
The street trash in France are Crips without gravitas.They can burn cars but they aren't killahs like in LA.
The media in both cases has fueled the flames.

11/09/2005 08:36:00 PM  
Blogger jim said...

d,

I really like your def, "the beginning of a riot race", b/c the starter gun may have just gone off in Europe with more to follow. But I think *Initifada* could also mean, if I remember my psychology sufificiently well from when I studied it, and I beilieve I do, that I must be too self-involved when I write, if I use "I" a lot and insert extraneious i's in my typing.

For a dyslexic, you spelled that great! But don't you miss dylsexic just a little bit?

11/09/2005 08:57:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

c:
"But don't you miss dylsexic just a little bit?"
---
Well of course, she was such a sweetheart, if perhaps a bit forward.
Speaking of missing something, however, we both missed the hidden insight of your 10:00 AM post, since just as dyslectic is a Variant of dyslexic, as you so cleverly point out,
an "Initifada" could well be said to be an early Intifada.

After the jihad problem is cynically punted long enough for the demographic time-bomb to go off, the Initifada grows into a full scale Intifada.
To make a human analogy, one might compare it to an Infantinifada maturing into an adult Intifada.
(Of course w/o a fada, there would be no infant.)

11/09/2005 09:36:00 PM  
Blogger anybudee said...

Doug

It just means that France in initfada than we are.

Charles had an interesting take about 2/3 the way back up. That Europe will have to expel the muslims in order to survive. Given that the Germans have forgotten how tho procreate and the French method doesn't produce pregnancy, he might be right.

11/09/2005 09:41:00 PM  
Blogger Charles said...

Thailand: PM announces 'D-Day' against Muslim rebels
AKI ^ | 2005 Nov 9
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1519209/posts

Posted on 11/09/2005 7:48:11 PM PST by Wiz


Bangkok, 9 Nov. (AKI) - As the violence in Thailand's hree southernmost provinces shows no sign of abating, prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra has announced an impending “D-Day” against the rebels. In the last 24 hours, Muslim insurgents have attacked Yala Provincial Hall and a series of other minor targets, while Bangkok has announced the killing of Hasueming Jarong, a leading member of the Pattani Mujahideen, one of the groups fighting for an independent Islamic state comprising Yala, Narathiwat and Pattani.

Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra said that the government has prepared a large scale offensive against the rebels to be launched in the next couple of days. “We will launch a D-Day to solve problems in the southernmost provinces. All measures have already been planned. We will no longer be on the defensive,'' he said on Tuesday night.

A source said the so-called D-Day operation in the 'Deep South', as the three provinces are collectively known, would be launched after 9 November. He did not elaborate.

However, to residents of the three mostly Muslim provinces - where the scale of violence and the boldness of the attacks have increased steadily since the first outbreak on January 4, 2004 - the prime minister's words may provide little comfort.

Five separate attacks occurred in the last 24 hours, the most daring one directed against the Yala Provincial Hall, the seat of local government, according to the Thai News Agency.

Government buildings and officials, together with policemen, soldiers, state school teachers and Buddhist monks, have been on the receiving end of more than 2,500 acts of violence that have taken place in the three provinces in the last 22 months. These have left over one thousand people dead and brought the economy to a standstill.

In a separate but linked development, the government has identified one of the rebels killed in an exchange of fire Monday night as Hasueming Jarong. Jarong is considered one of the leaders of the Mujahideen Islam Pattani, one of the groups fighting for an Islamic state in southern Thailand that would be independent from Buddhist Bangkok.

Among the other Islamic-based groups believed active in the area are the Gerakan Mujahadeen Islam Pattani, the Barison Revolusi Nasional and the Pattani United Liberation Organization (PULO). The latter group, although split into the New PULO and Old PULU, is considered the largest and the most active.

While the presence of a separatist struggle is undeniable, most analysts indicate the real root problem of the unrest is the economic gap between the Muslim south and the rest of Thailand and the power struggles among corrupted officials, renegade solidiers and bandits present in the area.

11/09/2005 09:49:00 PM  
Blogger anybudee said...

And as if on cue..

Charles, that is sobering. Where are the Chinese? If they wanna be the regional big dogs, they gotta show up at the games, not just run the concession stand. This is in their sphere of influence, are they gonna let a Buddhist Bankok fall?

11/09/2005 09:57:00 PM  
Blogger sam said...

Recall that expert bomb maker Hambali was arrested in Thailand in '03.

11/09/2005 10:15:00 PM  
Blogger heather said...

Hmmm. Another one of those 'chicken/egg' problems: it's not religion, it's ECONOMICS!!!

Now, if only other people living in the same country as Muslims would give them more money... and then the Muslims would not be poor anymore (!)and then they would be kind and loving and noble and generally all around NOT the kind of people who chop girls' heads off.

I guess that is what the Dhimmi and that special Dhimmi tax is all about...

11/09/2005 10:21:00 PM  
Blogger ledger said...

Since this thread is gets long let me just jump in quickly.

DJB: Assume it is Watts. There is no reason in memetics why it cannot transmogrify into Intifada .

I Agree.

Desert rat: Tony Blankley writes
" ... Even when the current violence subsides -- even when the French government attempts to placate their radical Muslim population by offering more welfare benefits and programs -- it will not be the end of the story. A new benchmark of the possible will have been established. The flaccid and timorous response of the French government will only increase the radicalizing Muslim elements' contempt for Western cultural weakness... "

Yep. Never appease rioters.

Sophia Phoster: ...Glad that was cleared up. I otherwise might have thought that the "youths" tossing Molotov Cocktails while shouting "Allah is Greater" were the Islamic community.

Good one. Yes, it's MSM spin.

Papa Bear: You think they have riots now? Wait til the week the welfare checks don't come.

That's one of my main points. DeVillipen can make finacial promises all day long - but making good on them is another story. I doubt he will.

EddieP: France doesn't have time to institute assimilation and other corrective policies now. Every proposition would take years even if it were doable. It is way too late.

Yes, that's a real problem. Even if DeVillipen pays the ransom it will not end there. Ransom is like joining a fancy French country club. One pays an entry fee and then gets monthly bills from there on out.

Aristides: The play here, for the Muslims, is to double down. De Villepin's offer is an 11 on the table, and staying is ill-advised. Hit me, and it is more likely than not that 21 is right around the corner.

That a good analogy, except, the Muslims will soon have the house odds in their favor. The same outcome as ransom for the French.

cn said: Signs of weakness by our protagonists in our concept generally demand some attempts to reconcile. In the other tradition, weakness is a sign of imminent victory.

Well, that is the fork in the road for the French. I think the French will make a wrong turn.

Engineer-Poet: [OT] Could you PLEASE add dates to comment timestamps so we can tell if the discussion was going on today, or ended last month?

Yes, that is a good idea. Some of these thread go for days.

c said: Watts or Initifada? ... Chirac is nothing if not clever, and what his government is doing/not doing, and being mum about may have checkmated the Islamists this round. But it's still early in the match, and Chirac always proves too clever for France's good.

Count me among the disbelievers that this uprising is a spontaneous eruption triggered by a couple of boys' deaths who managed to kill themselves. We know about the recent Algerian communiques over targeting France and also the subsequent French round-up of terror suspects (done fairly quietly, although we did hear about the stinger missiles that were recovered). Imo, Chirac's gov knows that these 'riots' were orchestrated.


Yes, I have heard that in reality France has been one of the toughest countries on Terrorists in the EU block. But, I don't really know because of the manipulation of MSM reports.

I do agree that there is thing happening below the surface which we can't see. In prior posts I have listed some anti-terror operations the French have handled. It could be that they struck a nerve and outside players are fanning the flames of the "youth riot."

NahnCee links den Beste: Things to watch for: the first policeman killed by gunfire, the first rioter killed by gunfire, the first use of French army units in the cités, the first bombing, the rate at which this spreads elsewhere in France and in Europe as a whole.

I say a bomb or downing of an airliner.

James Kielland produces evidence that the French riots are not like watts.

I think Wretchard's point was whether the violence was criminal or much larger thing (state sponsored or group sponsored).

The problem with comparing LA California to France it is comparing apples to oranges. LA California is a much rougher area. France is very timid compared to South Central LA.

In the late '80's in the greater LA basin area one notable newspaper would have headlines such '30 People dead in Gang Related Murders this Weekend' and I am sure many can point to various crime metrics in 80's and '90s which show LA is just about tops on the crime list each year (excluding cities like Moscow or the like).

But, if you were to somehow "adjust" France to LA you might find this current level of violence is exceptional for France.

Returning to the point, the French Riots most likely are exceptional and could be a sign of worse things to come due to massive influx of Islamic people who don't adhere to Western style of law.

11/09/2005 10:46:00 PM  
Blogger anybudee said...

The real question is:
Could French-style riots happen here?
Yes, says a hopeful leader of 'Aztlan' separatist movement

While Many Americans are watching the chaos unfold following 12 nights of mayhem by largely Muslim immigrants in the streets of France, a leader of the separatist Aztlan movement in the U.S. says it's only a matter of time before worse unrest hits the streets of America.

"Can a similar insurrection occur in the USA?" asks Ernesto Cienfuegos of La Voz de Aztlan.

Yes, he concludes.

"Today, here in Los Angeles, we are already seeing ominous signs of an impending social explosion that will make the French rebellion by Muslim and immigrant youths seem 'tame' by comparison," he writes. "All the ingredients are present including a hostile and racist police as in France. In fact, we came close to having major riots on three separate occasions just this year alone."

Aztlan activists, who see themselves as "America's Palestinians," want to carve out of most of the southwestern United States an independent, Spanish-speaking nation known as the Republica del Norte.

more

11/09/2005 10:54:00 PM  
Blogger heather said...

Intifada/Watts/ or American Cold Civil War...
It was a quite an experience listening to the aggressive and even threatening questions thrown at Ahmed Chalabi today by reporters from the Washington Post, USA Today, etc. Did he knowingly, purposefully mislead the USA in order to lure the Americans into this War?? Is he a spy for Iran? Will he come before the US Congress and explain himself and the fact that THERE ARE NOT WMDs in Iraq???

This fellow is one of the top Iraqis in the Iraqi government, and he may become the Prime Minister in the next elections. He is here ON A STATE VISIT.

Jeez.

11/09/2005 10:57:00 PM  
Blogger jim said...

Low-level war around the globe and reported, albeit lamely, in the international media for all to see, and The House of Commons, the Dems, that same international media and too many French are in dangerous denial.

Doug and anybudee, Too funny! You make misspelling a pleasure. What about Inteenfada, that stage of adolescent rage and resistance that cannot be assuaged? The French have the worse to come, I'm afraid, and most parents would pity them.

11/09/2005 11:00:00 PM  
Blogger heather said...

And, another way to look at such as this Aztlan thing.. the First World and the Third World will have to come to some kind of accord in the next century.

It is here that free trade agreements and genetically modified foods, and etc are necessary. European protectionist policies must be broken.

And Islam must be changed. Its mindset is the most difficult to change, even tougher than that of the French.

11/09/2005 11:01:00 PM  
Blogger anybudee said...

c

Inteenfada [shudders] With four boys almost grown, am just now weaning off the anti-psychotics.

and heather

Islam seems to find fertile ground in fading Catholic lands. Imagine what would happen if it took hold in Mexico. Tancredo would be a shoo-in.

11/09/2005 11:10:00 PM  
Blogger Cutler said...

I don't normally do this, but this guy" says a lot that I agree with:

"IMO, it will all come down to whether the muslims overplay their hand.

If they bide their time, multiplying like rabbits and sucking dry the resources of the French state, then in a couple more decades they will have French society in the palm of their hand without having to explode a single bomb. The native French are too degenerate to themselves multiply, as children just get in the way of their hedonistic lifestyle. In certain ways, this is not unlike what happened in Algeria, as what began as a relatively small native Algerian population in the 1840s exploded over the years, eventually vastly outnumbering the French colonists, who had transformed a veritable wasteland into a flourishing agricultural region with thriving cities. Eventually the native Algerian population grew too large to be mastered by the French, and refused to be assimilated into becoming “Frenchmen” themselves.

On the other hand, if the muslims choose violent confrontation now, they will be destroyed. Anyone familiar with history knows that the French are a far more brutal people than we. The French do not allow political correctness to get in the way of their own interest, they regard that as utter foolishness. Political correctness is something to be preached to others, like the stupid Americains. There is no people on Earth more cynical than the French. For themselves, the French recognize no principle higher than their own narrow self-interest.

Politically-correct liberals decry nuclear power plants. The French blanket their country with them.

Liberals prattle on about banning nuclear tests. The French conduct open-air nuclear explosions in the South Pacific, and sink the ship of the liberals trying to harass them.

Liberals wail about unilateral intervention in the affairs of other countries (no matter how tyrannical or genocidal). The French intervene military in various African countries dozens of times over the last 40 years to suit their own interests, most recently in Cote d’Ivoire. If genocide is not contrary to French interests, as in Rwanda, the French will either turn a blind eye or abet it.

Liberals wag their fingers about the Geneva Convention. The French torture Algerians or Indochinese opponents whenever it seems doing so furthers their immediate objective.

Liberals denounce the “merchants of death” of the arms industry peddling their wares to violent regimes around the world. The French are world class leaders in this industry, which is one of the very pillars of their economy.

Liberals constantly defame “Big Oil” and its partnerships with authoritarian oil-producing countries. There are few oil interests bigger than the French oil company, Total, and they happily hop into bed with the most unsavory regimes (including the French government itself!).

And there are many other examples that could be given.

So therefore, my prediction is that if the threat from violent action by the muslims rises to the level where the native French feel they are existentially threatened, then there will be an ethnic cleansing in France that Milosevic could only marvel at. However, it will take more than property damage to provoke the French into this. If the muslims start killing significant numbers of ethnic French, then they will have signed their own death warrant. The French are not fighting the Wehrmacht here. The French have all the weapons. And they are beyond Christianity, the French will not be constrained by Christian principles of mercy.

So it is in the hands of the muslims. Will they overplay their hand and lose? Or will they patiently wait out the French, and win? We shall see."


Course, "winning" is debatable, since the same thing would happen to France that would happen to an Aztlan Southwest, degeneration.

11/09/2005 11:55:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

c and anybudee,
The French have created and are maintaining conditions ripe for an Intwixterfada.
As in Palestine, young folks have been paid to remain in limbo, twixt childhood and adulthood.
Human nature being what it is, and aided by the peddlers of Islamism as well as western celebration of the cult of victimization, twas but a matter of time.
---
From TIME:
.MEET THE TWIXTERS.
THEY'RE NOT KIDS ANYMORE, BUT THEY'RE NOT ADULTS EITHER. WHY A NEW BREED OF YOUNG PEOPLE WON'T--OR CAN'T?--SETTLE DOWN.

11/10/2005 01:59:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

Wow, what a couple of months!

3 hotels in Jordan, another cafe in Iraq, thousands of fires in France, hotels in Egypt, hotels in Bali, russia, trains & more...

I remember when all I would hear was, "dont continue the cycle of violence"

now I hear the word "terrorist"

maybe this is payback in a karma sort of way, for all those YEARS these same countries supporting palestinians doing the EXACT same thing to the israelis/jews...

I cant WAIT til this shit hits syria, saudia arabia and iran & china!

I sit here and laugh how the arab world (& world) have discovered the word "terrorist"

Let's not forget al Qaeda’s Abu Musab al Zarqawi (the palestinian) is nothing but a student of arafat...

Maybe in some strange way, all of this islamic/nationalistic/palestinian murder will teach the world a lesson..

11/10/2005 04:38:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Another night ends and the Francofada marches on. On to Lyon and a bunch of other French cities, the names of which I cannot begin to spell.
As one of our distinguished posters said the other day:
"We've swarmed 'em for four years, now they're about toast.", to paraphrase.
Sorry to say that he was wrong. This Francofada is not the last gasp of a dying movement. Mohammedan Jihadism and promoting Civil Unrest in the breasts of the enemy is not on life support, it is not terminal. It is in it's infancy, believe me.

The "swarming" we've done has not even secured Iraq, yet. Let alone any where else, except perhaps Mr Chalabi's place in US politics and Iraqi history.
We are coming closer to Victory in Iraq though and since the military got on the "involve the Iraqis" program I advocated for so long, I don't complain, much, any more.

As many here account the battle field in this asymetrical war is spreading. In Europe, Asia and the tri-border region of South America. The Mohammedans have a low intensity counter offensive underway, and half the people in the "West" refuse to recognize it for what it is. We won't be at the beginning of the end of the Mohammedan Wars until Warzistan and the Border Bandits there, all 300,000, are eventually dealt with. That won't be any time soon.

Why not Osama?

11/10/2005 05:43:00 AM  
Blogger Sophia Phoster said...

Via Instapundit to Publius Pundit here's an extensive European Media Roundup of eEvents in France.

11/10/2005 05:55:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

On the "political speech" in Jordan:

One of the PA figures killed was Bashir Nafa, head of the PA's Military Intelligence in Judea and Samaria, and an ally of Abu Mazen. He was imprisoned in Israel in the 1980's for his terrorist activities, and was expelled in 1988, together with Jibril Rajoub and others. He returned in 1994 after the Oslo Accords established the Palestinian Authority, and in 1999, he built up a terrorist militia that initiated violent riots in Ramallah in May 2000 and carried out shooting attacks at IDF soldiers.

Other PA bigwigs killed in Jordan were Abbed Aloun, the Director of the PA's Interior Ministry and a former PA security figure; Jihad Fatuh, a PA economic official stationed in Egypt; and Mussab Ahmed Huma, former Director of the PA's Communications Ministry.

I wonder, when their brothers were blowing themselves up into hamburger did they have any thoughts to all the jews they did the same too?

live by the Shahid, die by the Shahid...

11/10/2005 05:55:00 AM  
Blogger anybudee said...

Tell us, porky, were you one of the Israelis celebrating on the rooftop when the towers fell?

Or maybe you were standing next to Netanyahu, who when informed of 9-11 responded, "This is great. Uh, er, I mean..."

How far does your glee go?

11/10/2005 06:47:00 AM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

anybudee - link please to your quotes. No link = you're a flaming psychotic anti-semitic liar. Not to put too kind a face to it.

11/10/2005 06:57:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

Tell us, porky, were you one of the Israelis celebrating on the rooftop when the towers fell?

no, i do not celebrate INNOCENT life being lost...

I do however see irony in that the nations that supported jews being turned into hamburger are being struck down by the same bastards that themselves created to murder jews..

so no, last time i checked those pricks, the palestinians, handed out sweets when the towers fell..

11/10/2005 07:37:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

again, it's hard to not chuckle when PA terrorists are murdered by suicide islamic bombers...

I will stand and applaud when I see ANY ARAB/Islamic COUNTRY call for the end to murder of Jews..

Last time I checked, Iran, Just called for that....

So I will NOT cry any tears, when the Mullahs of Iran are hanged and dismembered by their own even more radical sons...

11/10/2005 07:40:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

part of anybudee's profile...
Interests Heaven
Favorite Books Bible
Practice of the Presence of God
Blogs What is God saying to you?

question, where, according to your favorite book the "bible" is it ok to murder jews to conquer Israel?

Might i say your reading of your favorite book lacks....

11/10/2005 07:44:00 AM  
Blogger jim said...

Oh, gee. Should I go ahead and post more to topic? Just wanted to say that Doug's "intwixterfada" works (and I got intinada): too many Muslims in the West are stuck between cultures and refusing to mature in their beliefs, refusing to grow up and face modernity.

Roll-back the run-up to the Iraq War and maybe de Villepin should have waxed poetically about the urgent need for democracy in a region of barbaric strongmen and growing militant fundamentalism. Maybe he should have called for Muslims everywhere to participate in civil, pluralistic society in which ideas compete without terrorism and people hold common secular values. France played it all wrong; the time to have frantically started to avoid its impending demographic doom was September 2001. "We are all Americans" for maybe a day and then obstructionism against the US and Chirac's craven suck-up to Muslim and African tyrants convinced Muslims in France that, not only would they not have to change their Muslim-first identity, they'd soon have the upper hand in such a feckless, faithless country.

The riots are a tragedy for France just unfolding, but there aren't too many headlines over here proclaiming, "We are all Frenchmen". Why? Leftist partisans and the Media don't want to admit that France (Europe/the West) has a big problem, much less a Muslim one, and the rest of us don't know even what a Frenchman is, anymore.

11/10/2005 07:57:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

I guess anybudee is not one of the bible readers that believe in the coming battle at Armegeddon. Those folks support the Zionists. Think they'll help the returning of Christ the War Lording Peacemaker

I guess Carridine believes he already came back and was murdered by the Mohaammedans.

I guess the youths shouting "allah akbar" while participating in the Francofada were upset about the social conditions in France, and set about creating "Baghdad on the Siene" to improve things.

As for Syria and Iran, just like the French Mohammedans and in their new millets, they just want to be left alone.

11/10/2005 08:07:00 AM  
Blogger anybudee said...

Nahncee

New York Times

Did you doubt he said it? That anti-semitic crap doesn't fly. I don't hate anybody. Don't you have to hate somebody to be an anti-semite? Or is the working definition now someone Jews hate? Or someone Jews disagree with... Or someone who criticizes Israeli policy... Or someone who points out embarrassing things Jews say...

Pork Loins

Where did I ever say it was OK to murder Jews, you lying creep?

That's the difference between like you and me, I don't rejoice over ANYONE's death.

11/10/2005 08:26:00 AM  
Blogger anybudee said...

Desert Rat

Not all bible believers are unblinking Israeli sycophants. Just not as all Jews are Zionists. "Christian Zionism" is a heresy. As I have stated previously, I am for Israel's defense, I just don't believe that everything she does is God's will, like some of those on the 'crying channel.'

I absolutely do believe in a future Armageddon, but I'm not foolish enough to gloat about it. If the book of Revelation can be taken at all literally, 3/4 of the world will die. Isn't that a little hard to cheer for? Unless you're Pork Chop.

WE don't HELP Jesus return. That is a misreading of scripture, and one of the errors of the CZ's We look for it.

11/10/2005 08:44:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

desert rat says,
"I guess the youths shouting "allah akbar" while participating in the Francofada were upset about the social conditions in France"
---
Yes, that shout to Allah the Great was reported on day 1 or 2, but has gone largely unmentioned since.

Perhaps they have found a new chant?
hmm

11/10/2005 01:01:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

anybudee said...

Pork Loins
Where did I ever say it was OK to murder Jews, you lying creep?

Where did I lie? Please post that...

anybudee said : That's the difference between like you and me, I don't rejoice over ANYONE's death.

Rejoicing? you asked if I rejoiced? No I said, I'd "chuckled" when i learned that MURDERERS were blown up by their MURDERING brothers, that aint rejoicing..

as "anyone's death", we differ, I dont shed a tear for mass murderers dying, whereas you believe:

"I absolutely do believe in a future Armageddon, but I'm not foolish enough to gloat about it. If the book of Revelation can be taken at all literally, 3/4 of the world will die. Isn't that a little hard to cheer for? Unless you're Pork Chop."

well my faith doesnt call for the death of 3/4 of the world as does yours..

and while we are at it, i only again said, i dont shed tears over the deaths of mass murderers..

11/10/2005 01:15:00 PM  
Blogger anybudee said...

Porky says:
"Where did I lie? Please post that..."

The inference to this question-

"question, where, according to your favorite book the "bible" is it ok to murder jews to conquer Israel?"

Who said that?

" well my faith doesnt call for the death of 3/4 of the world as does yours.."

My faith merely says that it's going to happen. But there are religious idiots on both your side and mine pushing for this. With the way you were gloating over the Muslim unrest in France, you sounded like one of them.

"and while we are at it, i only again said, i dont shed tears over the deaths of mass murderers.."

Nor do I. But I do grieve for any innocent life lost - Muslim, Jew or Christian. But you know as well as I do, there are people in all three of these groups who are pushing for conflict. THEY are the enemy, whatever affiliation they have.

This has been my stance for years. I have stated it several times here.

11/10/2005 04:32:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

anybudee said...
Porky says:

"Where did I lie? Please post that..."

The inference to this question-

"question, where, according to your favorite book the "bible" is it ok to murder jews to conquer Israel?"


That doesnt sound like me lying, that sounds like a QUESTION....

i said " well my faith doesnt call for the death of 3/4 of the world as does yours.."

anybudee said... My faith merely says that it's going to happen. But there are religious idiots on both your side and mine pushing for this.

No, my faith does not call for the end times, in no way shape or form. MY "SIDE" calls for the legal right of Jews to LIVE without being blown to hamburger... My side advocates the legal rights of all humans to live without fear of being decapitated.


anybudee said...With the way you were gloating over the Muslim unrest in France, you sounded like one of them.

No I sound like someone that has watched the french turn over it's jews for slaughter to keep it's monuments safe, and watched the french do everything it its power to supply the palestinians with weapons to murder jews and watched the french do everything in its power to cause the usa to loose in its fight against islamicfacism, so when these same butchers turn their knives on the french, their benifactors, I chuckle...

"and while we are at it, i only again said, i dont shed tears over the deaths of mass murderers.."

anybudee said...Nor do I. But I do grieve for any innocent life lost - Muslim, Jew or Christian.

NEWSFLASH, in Jordan, Mass MURDERERS were MURDERED by the same islamic garbage they themselves supported to murder jews...

anybudee said... But you know as well as I do, there are people in all three of these groups who are pushing for conflict. THEY are the enemy, whatever affiliation they have.

No the big complaint of the moslems is that the JEW builds settlements.... how dare they want to live in gaza or jerusalem

11/10/2005 05:47:00 PM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

anybudee - I simply do not see how you can claim to be a christian or anything to do with god when you demonstrate such vomitous hate.

I do *not* believe the Israeli's or any Jews celebrated 9/11. I have never seen any such thing reported anywhere in the last four years, and your link to the NY Times doesn't work.

The only beings that would report such a thing with a straight face and then be ignorant enough to believe it are the inhabitants of the Middle East, and *they* have been brainwashed 24/7 for decades now to believe any filthy thing about the Jews that is presented to them.

What's your excuse? (If I were going to guess, I'd guess that you're white, have an extremely close to the head haircut, sport ugly tattoo's, and in a different previous incarnation, enjoyed wearing sheets.)

11/10/2005 06:39:00 PM  
Blogger fred said...

From reading reams of news items related to the riots in France and in other locations in Europe, including blog discussions of the same, without some honest in-depth analysis and information from European journalists and investigators themselves, how does one form a solid opinion of this event?

Right now it looks as if the Europeans themselves are split as to which paradigm fits the situation. The Right sees "Intifada" and the Left sees "Watts." I think it's a mixture of both paradigms. However, my money is on the influence of the mosques and Muslim groups for setting this thing in motion and stoking it along. There is just too much coordination going on for this to be simply spontaneous combustion.

Having had the good fortune to have an Iranian for a roomate in college (1979-1982)who was also a devout Shi'a Muslim, I was able to get a rich understanding of what was taking place in Iran as the Shah was being tossed out. The rebellion was a mixture of Islamists, Socialists, Communists, and opportunists/disgruntled's. However, it was the Islamists who really had the most power and in the aftermath of this process they did in their other "allies." What I think is happening in France, and could be happening across Europe, is a similar scenario. Plenty of youth who are also not practicing Muslims, but who are opposed to the United States and Western European governments are involved in the unrest. There are socialists and communists involved, but ultimately the mosque is where most of this is fomented.

11/10/2005 08:30:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Welcome back fred.
(and thank you 'Rat for the warm welcome)
Your take sounds very much like Gafney's today on Hewitt show:

France is burning, Hugh, and it's hard to discover this from most of the reportage that you get on either side of the Atlantic.
But it is burning principally at the hands of people who are, if not adherents to this ideology I call Islamo-Fascism, certainly responsive to direction from Islamists among them.
And one evidence of this was a very interesting report that appeared in the Wall Street Journal on Monday, in which it was clear that an organization called Tabligh-e-Jamat, a quite widely misunderstood organization.

It's described, invariably, as peacable, but it is in fact the vanguard of Islamo-fascism recruiting, and indoctrinating people who become terrorists in many cases.
This group is now saying to the French, if you want peace, you have to make these no-go zones, as they call them, permanent.
You have to cede them to us.
And my sense of it is that's all the evidence we need that this is not going to work out right, if the French, as they have been doing, try to appease these people, and in fact, put their country, their democracy, I think, in great peril.
.Frank Gaffney on Jordan and France, and the sham of the Democrats' seriousness - RadioBlogger

11/10/2005 09:00:00 PM  
Blogger anybudee said...

Keep talking Porky,

You and that silly cow can call what I say hate when you two spew your twisted cheers for other people's misfortune. So now it's the French you're gloating over. What? Not done with the Germans?

But I notice it's only selected mass murderers that rate your bile. Hmmmm. How about the murderers of 10 million Ukranians?

And the Palis? How DARE they want to live in their generational homes in the occupied territories! How DARE they.


Nahncee

You petty whining shrew, you're not even close. You call what I say hate and dismiss the real hatred displayed in Porky's and your posts.

You ran your mouth before when you accused me of long posts when YOU had longer ones in the same thread. Now you questioned me on verifying my source. Netanyahu said, "It's very good" when told about 9-11. Then realized his gaffe and backtracked. It's in James Bennet's article of the Sept.12, 1991 edition of the NY Times, pa, 22. Or was that "anti-semitism" for me to point that out?

"And then let's start to shoot to kill said terrorists who are roaming the streets" Yeah Nahncee, LET'S.

Hey Porky, I believe she's talking to you.

And as the charge of anti-semitism was brought up, by you two, I've got a question for you about it's misuse. Pat Buchanan has been roundly called an anti-semite by you lot. Produce, in this space, evidence of his anti-semitism. Either that or you're both "flaming psychotic anti-christian liars." I believe the term goes.

We'll be looking.

11/10/2005 10:34:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

And the Palis? How DARE they want to live in their generational homes in the occupied territories! How DARE they.


yes and they should... that is why 25% of Israel is arab.

we have gone over this a hundred times....

Israel has accepted a 2 state solution since 1948, the arab world has not, this is why there are NO jews LEFT IN ANY ARAB NATION

A simple point, can you understand?

11/11/2005 05:03:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

"Keep talking Porky"

You like to call me names, I dont call you names... tsk tsk

"You and that silly cow can call what I say hate when you two spew your twisted cheers for other people's misfortune."

again, twisted cheers? is it misfortune when a bank robber shoots himself when robbing a bank?

" So now it's the French you're gloating over. What? Not done with the Germans? "

The French are special, Germany at least has had the nuts to be honest of it's weasel past, now saudia arabia? that will be fun to cheer as it collapes into nothing but sand

11/11/2005 05:15:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

Pat Buchanan has been roundly called an anti-semite by you lot. Produce, in this space, evidence of his anti-semitism. Either that or you're both "flaming psychotic anti-christian liars." I believe the term goes.

On Adolf Hitler:
"...an individual of great courage...Hitler's success was not based on his extraordinary gifts alone. His genius was an intuitive sense of the mushiness, the character flaws, the weakness masquerading as morality that was in the hearts of the statesmen who stood in his path." - From a 1977 syndicated column as reported by The Guardian [1/14/92]
On the SS:
"victims just as surely as the victims in the concentration camps." - From New Republic [1/22/96]


William Buckley convicts Pat Buchanan of anti-Semitism in his essay (now book) "In Search of anti-Semitism." Whether or not you agree with Buckley or his essay or his conclusions, this is one of the other reasons Buchanan is called an anti-Semite; he is also accused of anti-Semitism by prodominant neo-Conservatives, such as Norman Podhoretz calling him the greatest threat to American politics in the 1990s in his various writings.


start there

11/11/2005 05:21:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

Archaeologists have discovered a 40-pound stone containing the oldest known example of the Hebrew alphabet. The stone, inscribed with the Hebrew alphabet written out in its traditional order, was found in the wall of a building dated from the 10th century BCE in Tel Zayit, ancient Judea, south of Jerusalem. The building itself was part of a network of structures at the site, indicating an important border town connected to a centralized kingdom.

The discovery was made by Dr. Ron Tappy, a professor at the Pittsburgh Theological Seminary, on the last day of a five-week dig at Tel Zayit. "This is very rare," he said, "This makes it very historically probable there were people [3,000 years ago] who could write." In an interview with the New York Times, Dr. Tappy said, "All successive alphabets in the ancient world, including the Greek one, derive from this ancestor at Tel Zayit."

porky adds: not one word of palestinians was found... hmmm I guess jews from 3000 years ago refused to give "palestinians" rights...

11/11/2005 06:48:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

newflash from paris....

ONLY 426 cars were burned last night!

peace is breaking out!

11/11/2005 07:27:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

Either that or you're both "flaming psychotic anti-christian liars." I believe the term goes.

we'll i am "anti-cousin" worship....

however as I always say...

I respect all ethical people inspite of their stupid child beliefs, including my own..

But i dont have to lie to tell you where your "so called" beliefs are incorrect...

again.. is it good to call people names? is that christ-like? would your lord (my cousin) be proud?

you want to argue, then dont call people cows, lieing creeps etc....

11/11/2005 07:31:00 AM  
Blogger TallDave said...

It permits state-appointed ... prefects - to "forbid the movement of people and vehicles in places and times fixed by decree" and ban "meetings likely to provoke or fuel disorder". ... "order house searches at any time of day or night" and to control "press and publications of all kinds" although Mr Villepin told parliament this last article would not be invoked. Article six allows the interior minister to issue house arrests for people "whose activity is dangerous for public safety."

Sounds a lot like... Israel

11/11/2005 01:03:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Hewitt points to this Steyn masterpiece:
Mark Steyn's new column is a must read.
(free registration, I think it's easy)
...go back to that bland statistic you hear a lot these days: ‘about 10 per cent of France’s population is Muslim’. Give or take a million here, a million there, that’s broadly correct, as far as it goes.
But the population spread isn’t even.
And when it comes to those living in France aged 20 and under, about 30 per cent are said to be Muslim and
in the major urban centres about 45 per cent.
If it came down to street-by-street fighting, as Michel Gurfinkiel, the editor of Valeurs Actuelles, points out,
"the combatant ratio in any ethnic war may thus be one to one" — already, right now, in 2005.
It is not necessary, incidentally, for Islam to become a statistical majority in order to function as one. At the height of its power in the 8th century, the ‘Islamic world’ stretched from Spain to India, yet its population was only minority Muslim. Nonetheless, by 2010, more elderly white Catholic ethnic frogs will have croaked and more fit healthy Muslim youths will be hitting the streets.
One day they’ll even be on the beach at St Trop, and if you and your infidel whore happen to be lying there wearing nothing but two coats of Ambre Solaire when they show up, you better hope that the BBC and CNN are right about there being no religio-ethno-cultural component to their ‘grievances’.

Right now, the US produces roughly 25 per cent of global GDP.
Most analysts figure that by mid-century it will still be producing 25 per cent, and so will India and China,
but Europe will be down to 10 per cent.
As National Review’s John O’Sullivan has noticed, the three global heavyweights are all strongly attached to traditional notions of national sovereignty, so European countries which have bet on EU-style ‘transnationalism’ as a way out of their individual weaknesses are likely to find that, far from being the inevitable way of the world, it’s already on the wane.

And that’s the optimistic scenario. More likely, those Continental demographic trends will accelerate, as they did during the decline of the Roman Empire, when the imperial capital’s population fell at one point as low as 500.

11/11/2005 03:36:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Kinda like "The Stranger" starring the whole damned doomed and dwindling "native population."
---
We have to mend OUR fences to the south pronto.

11/11/2005 03:44:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

TallDave said...
It permits state-appointed ... prefects - to "forbid the movement of people and vehicles in places and times fixed by decree" and ban "meetings likely to provoke or fuel disorder". ... "order house searches at any time of day or night" and to control "press and publications of all kinds" although Mr Villepin told parliament this last article would not be invoked. Article six allows the interior minister to issue house arrests for people "whose activity is dangerous for public safety."

Sounds a lot like... Israel


actually no, israel does not control the palestinian press, nor does it occupy 98% of all palestinian people, nor does it prevent tens of 1000s of palestinians to march in the west bank or gaza

it actually sounds like any one of 21 arab nations, cuba, north korea, Chenynia

11/11/2005 04:23:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Pork says,
"we have gone over this a hundred times....
Israel has accepted a 2 state solution since 1948, the arab world has not, this is why there are NO jews LEFT IN ANY ARAB NATION

A simple point, can you understand?
"
---
Yes, and yes, it is a simple point, but believe it or not, this is the first time my small brain has focused on that point to the exclusion of all of the other points of argument which always tend to go on forever.
Whether it was your use of capitalization,
(NO jews LEFT IN ANY ARAB NATION)
[vs the situation in Israel today]
or whatever, it leaves me amazed that more people don't give up trying to persuade with a million finer points, and simply use this bedrock example of facts presently on the ground to carry the day with the few out their still willing to listen.
Well Done!

11/11/2005 06:38:00 PM  
Blogger anybudee said...

Pork Rinds

Sorry, was indisposed all day.

As far as names, your very moniker is blasphemous to muslims. It is foolish and incendiary. I do play off it with lame attempts at humor, not very bright either. My point is: Do you recognize all that you may be doing? Is your intention to cause enmity?

You'll also notice most of my venom is aimed at Nahncee. She started with the down and dirty, but can't hang.

I will admit, you've been a whole lot more decent than you were 6 mos ago with that "Jesus was a pagan" crap.

As far as the palis, Porky YOU'RE the one who said: "...how dare they want to live in gaza or jerusalem." If it's been gone over "a hundred times," why make a stupid, inflamatory statement like that if you don't want it thrown back at you?

"again, twisted cheers? is it misfortune when a bank robber shoots himself when robbing a bank?"

Should we talk about that moral EQ B.S. here? Many, if not most palis, are not terrorists. Indeed, many of the rioters in France are not terrorists. Some are. Burning cars ain't a whole lot worse than what the student radicals did at Berkeley or Iowa in the 60's. And now those jokers are VENERATED in certain quarters. And NONE of those pampered cry babies ever suffered 50% unemployment and nearly complete social disenfranchisement. There's more to what's happening in France than Bin Ladenism.

Chacterizing them as terrorists and advocating their being gunned down, (to be fair, that was Nahncee, not you) is both reprehensible and (for our purposes here) counterproductive.

And pointing out the REAL anti-semitism of the Arab world... Do you REALLY want to use that as a reason for justifying Israeli policy? The standard american joe thinks that Arab countries are third-world. Culturally ghetto. Is THAT the standard Israel aspires to? I didn't ever think so. Why even beg the question?

As for Pat Buchanan.

On Adolf Hitler:
"...an individual of great courage...Hitler's success was not based on his extraordinary gifts alone. His genius was an intuitive sense of the mushiness, the character flaws, the weakness masquerading as morality that was in the hearts of the statesmen who stood in his path." - From a 1977 syndicated column as reported by The Guardian [1/14/92]
On the SS:
"victims just as surely as the victims in the concentration camps." - From New Republic [1/22/96]

So this is what passes for anti-semitism? Hitler WAS a genius. So was Stalin, Mao and Ted freakin' Bundy! The point is that they are EVIL geniuses. Is Pat on record as calling Hitler evil? Then that would give the lie to someone attributing approval when simply awe was shown. I, for one, am in awe of what those afore mentioned monsters have done. Awe and disgust.

As for the SS, how many SS soldiers and officers were NOT involved in the "Final Solution" but were still gunned down in reprisals by the Russians and Jewish survivors? If that's the case, then they too are victims. Oh, are we talking the LEVEL of victimhood? Is that the point? That's why I brought up the Ukranians. They were systematically slaughtered also. But I've never seen a movie about it, have you? As for those SS not working the death camps but still slaughtered, well, they paid for their association with their lives. (and I'm not shedding huge tears for them either, But neither am I rejoicing about it) Requiring more payment has a point of diminishing returns.

And if neocons like Podhoretz and sell-outs like Buckley call someone an anti-semite, so what?Does that make him one? I'M not an anti-semite. (I think you know that) Does Nancee's calling me one MAKE me one? Think about it, and to the best of what you know about what Buchanan, do YOU believe he hates Jews? Do you really WANT to characterize people in that way? What effect is it having? Is it WORKING?

THAT'S my point.

This is getting long. I'll break it here.

11/11/2005 06:47:00 PM  
Blogger anybudee said...

Porky

Do you really think you can ridicule me and my christianity and then think to get sympathy (or whatever you're looking for) by pointing out my (admittedly) juvenile name calling? Please.
Do you know where you LIVE?

This comes to the big point.

There is REAL anti-semitism out there. And it's growing. I had never been exposed to it, other than ethnic slurs, till the Internet. Now, it's even where I work. I told you a while back that there are rumblings in places that previously gave tacit support. In other places, hostility.

You mentioned Stormfront once to Cedarford. I went and checked it out. They even hate evangelical christians there for supporting Israel. I went back recently. Do you have any idea how much that thing has increased? I'm not in a minority, and that crap scares ME.

Porky, do you realize what your rhetoric DOES? Do you understand the theory of unintended consequences? You and Nahncee might think you're just being cute and trying to shut up some critic of Israel. But using "Anti-semitism!" when it isn't there merely waters down the word. And maybe worse. Attributing hatred when it isn't there, CAUSES hatred.

Contrary to what the Nahncees of your world think, I am not your problem. In fact, if either one of you has prayed for the peace of Jerusalem HALF as much as I have, I'd be really surprised. It was people like me who hid people like you in Holland, Poland and Germany.

I'm just afraid we'll be doing it again.

Porky think, if just your comments that I've seen here at Belmont could be syndicated and put in every newspaper in America tonight, those Neanderthals that I mentioned earlier would start 'direct action' tomorrow.

There's what, fifty regular posters and maybe another couple hundred(?) irregular here at Belmont. Looking at that hit meter, I'd guess there's maybe 50-100 lurkers per poster. (It's in the magnitude anyway) Do you realize your footprint? Are your TRYING to foment hatred? And if you are, then damn you for it.

As for things changing, even here, I haven't been around much but when I came back I noticed that Cedarford seems to be nearly "mainstreamed" (hopefully he's dropped some of that hate crap too) People talk to him and even back points that I don't think they would before. He's bright, but he's WRONG on some stuff. Some of that STUFF is becoming acceptable. And I believe YOUR people's rhetoric is causing that.

For example, there is a guy this week that was extradited to Germany for denying the holocaust. Has somebody really thought that thru? Criminalizing even hateful speech like that causes people to question and even rebel. Remember the 'Wet paint" principle? How about letting 'sleeping dogs lie?' Why create interest?

Whatever you think about my comments or me, please hear my heart here. And rethink what you and your cousins are doing. You guys are are in danger of everplaying your hand, and if you do, you could get us both killed.

11/11/2005 08:04:00 PM  
Blogger fred said...

I like the moniker "Pork rinds for allah" sir "anybudee" as I consider Islam (and I have studied Qur'an, ahadith, and The Reliance of the Traveler)to be a violent, misogynistic, thieving, murdering, and raping totalitarianism.

Anyone who lampoons Allah and his prophet enjoys my praise and agreement.

11/11/2005 09:05:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

anybudee: As far as names, your very moniker is blasphemous to muslims. It is foolish and incendiary. I do play off it with lame attempts at humor, not very bright either. My point is: Do you recognize all that you may be doing? Is your intention to cause enmity?

Do you realize that "normal" islam around the world from the great mullahs of Iran to the PA appointed mullahs of Jerusalem, Saudia OFFICIAL Clerics (and more than I can list) call Jews the sons of apes and monkeys, Prophet MURDERERS & distorters of the Torah, this is NORMAL, do you realize that Islam in it's creation MURDERED it's Jews from Medina to "cleanse" it? Do you understand that NORMAL ISLAM views Jews (and Christians) as offical SECOND CLASS citizens at BEST and have enforced a captial crime to insult their prophet?

So really for 1400 years islam has been murdering and destroying all things Jewish, so pardon me, F**K the Moslem's sensibilties, maybe they need a dose of ridicule....

11/12/2005 08:50:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

anybudee:

I will admit, you've been a whole lot more decent than you were 6 months ago with that "Jesus was a pagan" crap.


the worship of a man as the G-d of Israel is pagan..

However, your pagan beliefs does NOT prevent you in being a valued good person in the "eyes" of the ONE G-d of Israel, this is a CENTRAL JEWISH belief since it's creation

11/12/2005 08:54:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

anybudee: As far as the palis, Porky YOU'RE the one who said: "...how dare they want to live in gaza or jerusalem." If it's been gone over "a hundred times," why make a stupid, inflamatory statement like that if you don't want it thrown back at you?

Yes HOW DARE JEWS want to live in gaza or jerusalem?

I think you miss understood my sarcasim..

11/12/2005 08:59:00 AM  
Blogger anybudee said...

[sighs]

11/12/2005 09:01:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

anybudee:
Many, if not most palis, are not terrorists. Indeed, many of the rioters in France are not terrorists. Some are. Burning cars ain't a whole lot worse than what the student radicals did at Berkeley or Iowa in the 60's. And now those jokers are VENERATED in certain quarters. And NONE of those pampered cry babies ever suffered 50% unemployment and nearly complete social disenfranchisement. There's more to what's happening in France than Bin Ladenism.

73% of Palestinians in a RECENT PALESTINIAN SURVEY supported suicide bombers targeting Israelis

As for the "nonviolent" French uprising, lets understand that the MAJORITY of anti-semetic attacks in the last 4 yrs are by these same "youths", these do include stabbings of people that simply "looked" jewish, dont mention the firebombings & shootings in the "jewish quarter" of paris, dont forget the handicapped person doused with gas and set on fire....

nothing like the non-violent protests of america in the 60's except for the weather underground and black panthers which were and are thugs.

11/12/2005 09:04:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

anybudee:

And pointing out the REAL anti-semitism of the Arab world... Do you REALLY want to use that as a reason for justifying Israeli policy?

what is "israeli policy"?

Is it, that when the "DISPUTED" land of the west bank were conquered in 1967 there were NO universities? After "occupation" Israel had BUILT 7? Or the roads that israel had built FOR PALESTINIANS?

What is israeli policy? Withdrawl from gaza and an area twice it's size from northern west bank WITHOUT A PEACE TREATY?

What is this demon "israeli" policy? Is it how Israel created from sand a 350 MILLION dollar a YEAR industry and GAVE to the Pali's for NOTHING? And watch the Pali's loot them destroy them?

11/12/2005 09:12:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

anybudee: So this is what passes for anti-semitism? Hitler WAS a genius. So was Stalin, Mao and Ted freakin' Bundy! The point is that they are EVIL geniuses. Is Pat on record as calling Hitler evil? Then that would give the lie to someone attributing approval when simply awe was shown. I, for one, am in awe of what those afore mentioned monsters have done. Awe and disgust.


Pat is an anti-semite, he sees evil in the world caused by the jews behind every tree, his HUNDREDS of columns can be read at world net daily, read them and understand... if you dont wish to fine, if you want to peg your credibity of PAT's misunderstood nature, then you are naive...


anybudee: As for the SS, how many SS soldiers and officers were NOT involved in the "Final Solution" but were still gunned down in reprisals by the Russians and Jewish survivors? If that's the case, then they too are victims.

actually learn the history of the SS, there were NO innocent SS officers and soldiers, these were NOT regular army joes..

as for the "gunned" down aspect, please cite me ANY example of Jews gunning down SS officers.. I think you will be suprised if you can find even one... As for the Russians, not my issue, as for the SS being victims? tuff shit... they should have been fed into a wood chipper...

The good OLe USA took care of the worst of the Republican Rapist Looking Murdering Guard by shooting up a convoy 30 miles long of the Iraqi SS... great model, and now, I dont call them victims, I call them scum that got cooked...

11/12/2005 09:19:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

anybudee: Do you really think you can ridicule me and my christianity and then think to get sympathy (or whatever you're looking for) by pointing out my (admittedly) juvenile name calling? Please.
Do you know where you LIVE?

yes, its called USA...

now, when you see a christmas scene, do you not see how you are telling jews how jews are too stupid to KNOW their own messiah? when you see a cross, you see your NEW symbol, i see a roman invention to torture and murder jews, now, not that it counts for ANYTHING, maybe christians should not be so sensitive about ridicule when they in fact have done it for centuries...

i expect rational people INSPITE of their stupid beliefs (including my own ((i dont eat meat and cheese together or snails) to get beyond getting their feeling hurt and do right for right's sake

11/12/2005 09:26:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

anybudee:

Porky, do you realize what your rhetoric DOES? Do you understand the theory of unintended consequences? You and Nahncee might think you're just being cute and trying to shut up some critic of Israel. But using "Anti-semitism!" when it isn't there merely waters down the word. And maybe worse. Attributing hatred when it isn't there, CAUSES hatred.

I know what 1600 yrs of forced silence by Christians has gotten us... death by the 10's of millions

As for "screaming" anti-semitism, RARELY use that label and with Pat it fits...

11/12/2005 09:27:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

anybudee: You guys are are in danger of everplaying your hand, and if you do, you could get us both killed.

newsflash, islam is already looking to slit your throat, regardless if I piss them off...

We have (and have for YEARS) off duty cops with very nice pistols that stand outside our temples waiting for the terror to strike, the jews in argentina in 1984 (80 MURDERED BY IRAN/HEZBOLLAH) taking thier kids to community center, the jews in LA being shot at, the Jews in NYC having drive bys by Palestinians, no my words cant cause murder, only murderers can cause murder...

The intent of islam is to convert you or kill you...

REGARDLESS IF I PISS THEM OFF....

11/12/2005 09:34:00 AM  
Blogger anybudee said...

Porky,

WHAT are you trying to do? Tick off ALL Christians? You don't seem to mind enraging Muslims, dangerous in other quarters, but here, probably chic, but still not smart. But ridiculing Christians? This country is still majority christian. Don't you see the hubris in that? Why don't you just TELL them to become anti-semites? REAL anti-semites.

You might think it's safe here spewing that "paganism" blather to those here at Belmont. Most here have bought into that culture of fear that keeps them from criticizing Jews, even when Jews insult them or pull that double standard stuff. Or even outright stupidity like Netanyahu's faux pas or not apologizing for the Liberty attack. (or didn't THAT happen either?)

Our religious scenes weren't a problem till some of you decided they were hate. We never had you in mind when they were made. If you WANT to make them symbols of hate, then don't be surprised if you receive hate in return.

Islamics want to kill me? Sure. Why? OBL gave three reasons, one was protecting YOU. Keep up your insults and infammatory rhetoric, keep your disproportionate influence in Washington, let your country cousins keep pushing for us to go into Iran. And when enough Americans have died or been insulted enough, they will decide that protecting you is not worth it. It's moving that direction now. If it happens, don't blame anybody but yourself.

You can ridicule me and think you're winning some kind of argument, but your very tactics are exposing your own hate and raising questions in those who read you.

YOU are the best recruiter for anti-semitism I have ever seen. And I'm not talking Pat Buchanan's milquetoast criticism stuff.

Think thru what you're doing.

11/12/2005 11:05:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

abybudee: YOU are the best recruiter for anti-semitism I have ever seen.

that statement PROVES what a fu*king moron you are..

I did not cause the blood libel

I did not cause the crusades

I did not not cause the holocaust

I did not kill your lord

no your statement is defective....

you go on to state:
WHAT are you trying to do? Tick off ALL Christians?

Yes, by calling jesus my cousin and his worship as pagan, i can see the riots starting, oh wait, christianity HAS murdered for less...

anybee: You don't seem to mind enraging Muslims, dangerous in other quarters, but here, probably chic, but still not smart.

Yes let's all watch our mouth, since we MIGHT anger them...

anybee: But ridiculing Christians? This country is still majority christian. Don't you see the hubris in that? Why don't you just TELL them to become anti-semites? REAL anti-semites.

Why not CONVERT them to noahites?

anybee: You might think it's safe here spewing that "paganism" blather to those here at Belmont. Most here have bought into that culture of fear that keeps them from criticizing Jews, even when Jews insult them or pull that double standard stuff.

There is no pc here, to worship my "COUSIN" as the G-D OF ISRAEL is pagan, or was he supposed to be the PROMISED JEWISH MESSIAH for the JEWS, which is it?

Or even outright stupidity like Netanyahu's faux pas or not apologizing for the Liberty attack. (or didn't THAT happen either?)

anybudee: Our religious scenes weren't a problem till some of you decided they were hate.

Yes, we loved the cross, used to have picinics by them, loved watching cousin ernie have his flesh stripped by vultures.. Yes it's the jews's fault how dare we not like what you do, after i am not a full citizen am I?

ANYBUDEE: We never had you in mind when they were made. If you WANT to make them symbols of hate, then don't be surprised if you receive hate in return.

ARE YOU THIS STUPID IN REAL LIFE? LEARN your faith! the Baby Jesus is SUPPOSED to be the MESSIAH FOR THE JEWS, not the CHRISTIANS, where do think you get your releigon FROM?

anybudee: Islamics want to kill me? Sure. Why? OBL gave three reasons, one was protecting YOU.


Here we go, that lovely canard, because of the jews, learn history, the jews were an after thought, it was usa troops in saudia arabia...


anybudee: keep your disproportionate influence in Washington

now that sounds..... antisemetic...

anybudee: let your country cousins keep pushing for us to go into Iran.

yes, it's all israel. iran is a lovely country that seeks peace with everyone... its the jews fault of course, newsflash, your weakness of middleeast issues shows again, the 1st target iran would hit would be one of it's arab next door buddies.... and last time i checked IRAN has made statements of genocide, not israel...

anybudee: when enough Americans have o learn history, or been insulted enough, they will decide that protecting you is not worth it. It's moving that direction now. If it happens, don't blame anybody but yourself.

newsflash, noone has ever protected the "jews" that is why in the last 1000 years 20,000,000 have been murdered by moslems and christians

anybudee: You can ridicule me and think you're winning some kind of argument, but your very tactics are exposing your own hate and raising questions in those who read you.

yes I hate mass murderers and those like you who make excuses like "i was insulted" you on the other hand, excuse mass murder since jews were not quite and well behaved..

anybudee:YOU are the best recruiter for anti-semitism I have ever seen.

this last statement proves what a moron you are....

11/12/2005 02:20:00 PM  
Blogger anybudee said...

Porky

I see you thought about it long and hard. And there's that "rarely used" a-word. Should I feel honored?

I'M the moron? I'm not a member of an overrepresented minority who's running his big mouth ridiculing the majority religion while his minority is being increasingly scrutinized. THAT might be the very definition of a moron.

Go ahead. Keep thinking I'M the enemy. Don't ask yourself why I'd put up with this b.s. and keep telling you to rethink what you're doing.

Instead, just go to here Notice the template, look familiar? Notice the membership, the numbers. And ask why this number of people are in to building automatic weapons.

This is an increasingly well armed populace. And the level of frustration is rising. Can't you see now why I'm suggesting that you guys not overplay your hand?

11/13/2005 04:35:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

anybudee:

I see you thought about it long and hard. And there's that "rarely used" a-word. Should I feel honored?

not really, but stating somehow that some group has "overrepresented minority" as too much power and that group is the "jews" and that if we dont keep our mouths shut we will be silenced is anti-semetic

anybudee: I'M the moron? I'm not a member of an overrepresented minority who's running his big mouth ridiculing the majority religion while his minority is being increasingly scrutinized. THAT might be the very definition of a moron.

actually, your statements are quite moronic....

anybudee: Go ahead. Keep thinking I'M the enemy. Don't ask yourself why I'd put up with this b.s. and keep telling you to rethink what you're doing.

actually you dont READ my words very closely, you are so filled with hate that you project HATE into my words... I dont hate you cause you worship my cousin, I dont hate you cause your faith tells me i am stupid I dont hate you cause your non-logical and not loving to your LORD's own flesh and blood people.... but you find hate everywhere...


anybudee: Instead, just go to here Notice the template, look familiar? Notice the membership, the numbers. And ask why this number of people are in to building automatic weapons.

to slaughter jews? hardly...


anybudee: This is an increasingly well armed populace. And the level of frustration is rising. Can't you see now why I'm suggesting that you guys not overplay your hand?

cant you see your point is crap? I dont FEAR armed americans, i fear ZEALOTS that believe and teach that an insult is worthly of death, this is what you EXCUSE as reasonable behavior...

overplaying my hand hardly, make ya promise, kill ever last jew and your lord/god will never come back and you will be doomed to hell forever...

11/13/2005 08:45:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

anybudee's world..

from the arab news, but i guess this is what anybudee see in america's future:


Teacher Charged With Mocking Religion Sentenced to Jail
Ebtihal Mubarak, Arab News

JEDDAH, 14 November 2005 — The controversial case of Muhammad Al-Harbi, a Saudi high school teacher accused of mocking religion, came to a surprising end on Saturday. Al-Harbi was sentenced to three years in prison and 750 lashes — 50 lashes per week for 15 weeks. The lashes are to be given in the public market in the town of Al-Bikeriya in Al-Qassim.

A number of 12th Grade students, along with some teachers from the same school, filed a lawsuit a year-and-a-half ago against Al-Harbi. He was accused of mocking Islam, favoring Jews and Christians, preventing students from performing ablutions. He was also charged with studying witchcraft. At the time, he was a chemistry teacher at Al-Fowailiq High School in the town of Ein Al-Juwa in Al-Qassim.

“This is a very cruel sentence,” Al-Harbi told Arab News. He explained over the phone that the students who filed the lawsuit had failed the monthly chemistry test. “They asked me to give them the exam again and when I refused, they went to the principal to complain but he upheld my decision,” he explained.

According to Al-Harbi, the students’ actions were triggered by some Islamic studies teachers who used the students’ anger at Al-Harbi and convinced them to file the lawsuit.

The reason for the Islamic studies teachers action has its roots five years ago when Al-Harbi joined the staff of Al-Fowailiq High School after graduating from King Saud University in Riyadh. Based on his academic record and extracurricular activities, the school principal appointed Al-Harbi as school activities organizer.

Deeply disturbed by the explosions at the Al-Hamra Compound in Riyadh in 2003, Al-Harbi felt it his duty as an educator to enlighten his students and warn them of terrorism and its consequences. He went to great lengths by talking to students, hanging anti-terrorism signs around the school and speaking against terrorism.

“The Ministry of Education has recently ordered all schools to lecture students on the dangers of extremism and terrorism in general, but I was a step ahead of their decision,” said Al-Harbi.

Apparently Al-Harbi’s actions and comments against terrorism upset a number of Islamic studies teachers known for their fundamentalist beliefs. After the Al-Hamra blast in Riyadh, Al-Harbi copied an article, “Cavemen Go to Hell” written by Saudi columnist Hammad Al-Salmi in Al-Jazirah newspaper, attacking terrorists and extremists. Al-Harbi posted the article on the school bulletin board but it was ripped off and torn to pieces.

The teachers, as one of the students’ fathers admitted to Al-Harbi, used to visit students in their homes, encouraging them to disobey Al-Harbi and calling him names. One of the Islamic studies teachers stopped Al-Harbi in a morning school assembly from speaking against Abdul Aziz Al-Muqrin, identified by the Saudi government as a terrorist and who was on the government’s list of wanted terrorists. The teacher told Al-Harbi that Al-Muqrin was a Muslim and that no matter what he had done, no one should speak against him.

“They told the students that I studied under secular teachers and thus I’m not to be trusted in any subject except for chemistry,” said Al-Harbi.

Abdul Rahman Al-Lahem, Al-Harbi’s lawyer, told Arab News that the sentence was illegal. “Any case that has to do with sacrilege must be heard in a special religious court and not in a regular one,” he explained. “ The judge heard them individually and did not give the defendant the right to interrogate the witnesses,” said Al-Lahem. He also refused to acknowledge Al-Lahem as the defendant’s lawyer. Al-Lahem will appeal the verdict 10 days from the date of the original sentence.

Strangely, the judge did not question anyone from the school except for the students and the teachers who filed the lawsuit. “I asked the court to talk to the principal and anyone from the school, but the judge refused,” said Al-Harbi.

One of the charges made against Al-Harbi was that he praised disbelievers. Al-Lahem said that this was a very broad statement without an exact meaning.

Another accusation made by the students and the teachers is that Al-Harbi mocked bearded men since many religious people are bearded. “That is just ridiculous,” Al-Lahem said, pointing out that Al-Harbi himself has a beard.

When Arab News called the school principal, he refused to make any comment beyond saying that he had been told by “higher authorities” to say nothing to the media.

The physical education teacher at the school, however, said he had known Al-Harbi as a decent, respectable, cooperative individual. “One of the students came to me today and told me that they really missed their chemistry teacher,” he said.

The Ministry of Education has transferred Al-Harbi from his teaching job to an administrative one at the governorate educational office in Ein Al-Juwa. When he contacted the ministry and asked why he was being moved, Al-Harbi failed to get a clear answer.

11/13/2005 09:57:00 PM  
Blogger anybudee said...

Porky

I warn you not to ridicule Christianity, and you say I'm a pagan.

I tell you that there is anti-semitic attitude rising and that guys should take a lower profile and you call me an anti-semite.

I point out a twenty-thousand-member website that gives schematics for making automatic weapons, that has the same template as some of the biggest anti-semitic sites on the web and you say I hate.

You say that they aren't arming themselves against Jews and you call ME a moron.

Would you say that your attitudes are representative of other Jews?

If so: Is this how it happened in Germany?

11/14/2005 06:58:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

anybudee: I warn you not to ridicule Christianity, and you say I'm a pagan.

No, I say your worship of my cousin is pagan and I dont believe your worship of my cousin has anything to do with G-d's value of you and you say I am ridiculing you.


anybudee: I tell you that there is anti-semitic attitude rising and that guys should take a lower profile and you call me an anti-semite.

No, anti-semitic attitudes rise and fall, they seem to fall after jews are dead or bleeding, so trust me, silence will NEVER stop jew hatred, whereas ridicule and sunshine destroys them

anybudee: I point out a twenty-thousand-member website that gives schematics for making automatic weapons, that has the same template as some of the biggest anti-semitic sites on the web and you say I hate..

20,000 people out of 300,000,000 americans?

anybudee: You say that they aren't arming themselves against Jews and you call ME a moron.

actually, they are arming themselves against jews, blacks, mexicans, catholics, mormons, moslems, hindus, buddists, poles, italians, arabs & more...

anybudee: Would you say that your attitudes are representative of other Jews?

Most jews today realize that simply "good behavior" leads to gas chambers and progoms..

anybudee: If so: Is this how it happened in Germany

great question, actually NO, in germany, jews tried to BE more german, than germans, they changed their temples to sound like german churches, they ate pork, they married good catholic and lutheran girls, nope, what they DID not do, is call a spade a spade....

11/14/2005 09:08:00 PM  
Blogger anybudee said...

Porky

You know enough about Christianity to know that we consider Jesus part of the Godhead. You consider our worship of Him to be a pagan practice. These things are established. Surely you understand how a calling christian believers pagans would be extremely offensive. And doing so in an open forum would be unnecessarily provocative.

For instance, I do not believe that the Allah worshipped by muslims is Jehovah. But if I lived in Pakistan, I don't think I'd be publicizing that view. If for nothing else, but that it would stir up hatred.

To continue with the Paki metaphor: Suppose Christians in Paki numbered 3% of the population. But they had over a 1/3 of the seats in one of the governing branches. And what was increasingly considered an undue influence in both of it's major political parties. Given the past antipathy between Muslims and Christians, it would be wise of those Christians to show some restraint.

Contrary to what you said, ridicule does NOT destroy hatred. (it astounds me that you believe that) It HARDENS it. It may possibly make it go covert. Something like underground.

To think that those hate sites have the same fear/enmity towards any other ethnicity is simply wrong. Even blacks aren't viewed with the same suspicion. (Blacks aren't considered a general threat, only a personal one)

I don't know about Germany, but I've heard it said that Jews have been able to enjoy a "golden age" this past half century, especially here in the states. If they have, it would be because they would have been viewed as having become part of the american culture. Now they are viewed as wanting to change it. Given the instability in the global situation, I would think you guys would want to look for common cause, not hostility.

I do not consider myself anti-semitic, nor even what I've said to be so. In fact, I've always been a staunch supporter of Israel. I just don't want us to be on the hook for everything she does in the Middle East.

11/15/2005 04:18:00 PM  
Blogger Bar Supply Guy said...

Now that I have a little time I can finally read your posts especially the title Intifada or Watts?. I acidently ran in to it the other day looking for professional bar supply and yours popped up wretchard. I was in a hurry and bookmarked it so I could come back later. Well here I am. Keep it up from Las Vegas.

11/30/2005 04:27:00 PM  

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