Sunday, November 06, 2005

Do You Hear the People Sing?

Belmont Club commenter Red River makes the interesting conjecture that rioting "youths" in Paris have confined their primary mode of attack to car burning as part of a deliberate brinkmanship. Car burning is spectacular, serious enough to get attention yet -- and this is the vital point -- not serious enough to provoke lethal force. By staying just shy of the threshold, the rioters can maximize their rate of propagation at minimum danger to themselves. Other commenters have noted how small groups of "youths", coordinated by cell phone, can gather to attack and disperse before a response can be mounted. A BBC article describes some of the cut and thrust.

Police reported 1,295 vehicle burnings and made 312 arrests as unrest in African and Arab communities spread to Strasbourg, Toulouse and Nantes. On the 10th consecutive night of riots, four cars were torched on Place de la Republique in central Paris along with others in the central 17th District. ... Police helicopters patrolled the skies over the capital, attempting to pursue and identify those responsible for the attacks. 

Using expensive rotary wing assets to chase car arsonists isn't an economical proposition, especially when you can't fire on the arsonists. The ability to torch cars in the Place de la Republique is a good gauge of the limits of police response time. All in all, the tactic of car burning provides definite advantages to the attacker and many disadvantages for the defender. The tactics of the "youths" may have evolved spontaneously, and probably did. Nevertheless, because form follows function, they bear an eerie resemblance to tactics employed by the Chechens against the Russian Army in Grozny, and may have been fertilized by ideas from that source. A Parameters article describes how the Chechens gave the Russians the run-around.

The principal Chechen city defense was ... to remain totally mobile and hard to find. ... Hit-and-run tactics made it difficult for the Russian force to locate pockets of resistance and impossible to bring their overwhelming firepower to bear against an enemy force. Russian firepower was diluted as a result and could be used only piecemeal. Chechen mobile detachments composed of one to several vehicles (usually civilian cars or jeeps) transported supplies, weapons, and personnel easily throughout the city. Chechens deployed in the vicinity of a school or hospital, fired a few rounds, and quickly left. ... they moved in groups as large as 200 at times, showing up in cars with guns blazing. The more typical Chechen combat group was a three- or four-man cell. Five of these cells were usually linked into a 15- to 20-man unit that fought together. 

Hit and run tactics against relatively slow responding forces are a good choice. Against faster responding forces they are less effective. (As an aside, insurgents in Iraq believed Grozny-stle tactics could defeat US forces in cities such as Fallujah, but suffered huge casualties due to the overhead surveillance capability of US forces, largely provided by UAVs, and its networked battle force.)

Commentary

Although it may be coincidental, the remarkable uniformity in the rioter's rules of engagement and the rapid development of their tactics suggests they have a tacit consensus as to their strategic aims: to confine action to inherently political acts in exchange for political concessions. Amir Taheri believes he knows what those will be.

Some are even calling for the areas where Muslims form a majority of the population to be reorganized on the basis of the "millet" system of the Ottoman Empire: Each religious community (millet) would enjoy the right to organize its social, cultural and educational life in accordance with its religious beliefs.

In parts of France, a de facto millet system is already in place. In these areas, all women are obliged to wear the standardized Islamist "hijab" while most men grow their beards to the length prescribed by the sheiks.

The radicals have managed to chase away French shopkeepers selling alcohol and pork products, forced "places of sin," such as dancing halls, cinemas and theaters, to close down, and seized control of much of the local administration.

A reporter who spent last weekend in Clichy and its neighboring towns of Bondy, Aulnay-sous-Bois and Bobigny heard a single overarching message: The French authorities should keep out.

"All we demand is to be left alone," said Mouloud Dahmani, one of the local "emirs" engaged in negotiations to persuade the French to withdraw the police and allow a committee of sheiks, mostly from the Muslim Brotherhood, to negotiate an end to the hostilities. 

Maybe.

Update on the Rioters Tactics

From the Australian's correspondent in Paris:

Place de la Republique ...  became the latest symbolic stage ... torched four cars in the square. Car burnings ...  in the expensive 17th arrondissement. 
This is not a conventional urban riot where a large, angry mob confronts a wall of riot-shield wielding police. There are no pitched battles. 
... the thousands of police ... frustrated by the guerilla tactics of the firebombers who now rarely attack directly. ... sniper fire at police ... gangs ... move in small bands setting fire to cars, buses, shops and public buildings, then moving on quickly before firefighters or police arrive.

112 Comments:

Blogger Meme chose said...

It sounds like an old joke, but the truth is that the French authorities are desperately seeking for the people they can surrender to.

11/06/2005 05:53:00 AM  
Blogger Fellow Peacekeeper said...

Can someone confirm that French law prohibits the use of lethal force to protect property?

French forces in Kosovo suffered from national ROE restrictions, and were thereby unable to defend Serb villages (Svinjare) and orthodox religious sites (St Sava church, Devic monastery) from Albanian rioters (also coincidentally using arson) during the riots in March 17-19th 2004. In that case, where the rioters had the nerve to use weapons, otherwise passive French forces responded with quick, aggresive and effective violence.

11/06/2005 05:56:00 AM  
Blogger wretchard said...

It's not a joke. One of the real problems in dealing with fundamentalist Islam, as opposed to the old Soviet Politburo, is that it has no command and control structure. One of the things that made deterrence possible was the circumstance of a centralized Soviet leadership.

In the case of the French riots, the problem of who to negotiate with (because the French government is pushing for a political solution) is a real one. Assuming, arguendo, that you wanted to surrender, then who to?

11/06/2005 05:59:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

hey i posted that days ago!

11/06/2005 06:03:00 AM  
Blogger RWE said...

I just saw a report on FNC that 1295 autos had been flamed last night in France. Stunned, I tuned into the Belmont Club to see if anyone had seen the same thing.
As so frequently happens, Wrechard had anticipated my interest.
During the late 1960's I recall watching a environmental conference in which one "scientist" stood up and said that pollution was caused by people deliberately soiling the environment to protest against the War In Vietnam.
No doubt that some will call the incindinary actions by the IslamoFrench thugs a protest against the Car Culture promoted by the U.S., and a desperate attempt to stem the tide of Global Warming.

11/06/2005 06:13:00 AM  
Blogger Mətušélaḥ said...

re: command and control structure

Word of mouth. When you live in a small village gossip runs quickly.

re: the things that made deterrence possible

Islamists have "sacred" symbols they deeply revere. Should they feel these symbols are under threat as a result their actions, you will quickly see a change towards a more accommodating attitude and behavior.

11/06/2005 06:24:00 AM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

Wretchard - I'm not sure these tactics evolved spontaneously. The anti-Bush and anti-globalization protests throughout Europe in the last 4 or so years have had protestors using the Internet and cell phones.

Internet to announce the protest to a global audience of linked NGOs, anarchist, and protest groups. Internet chat rooms to discuss tactics, targets (figurative for most, real targets for anarchists, muslim extremists). Then Internet to announce public decisions and also private decisions - many secret, encrypted, originating from Internet cafe's for those wanting to do the molotov thing on the WTO, cops guarding dignitaries.

Next, cell phones for coordinating group members and evolving disbusal, reforming tactics when police action happens.

As opposed to the old days, where the police wedge would disburse the crowd and throw them into confusion, a similar charge today has light, fleet-footed protestors running in 360DEG directions away from the slower, bulky armored and gear-laden cops. Then speed dialing on phones to say where they would coalesce next and continue the fight.

Beating a protest the old way, unless they start using cell phone jamming, is now about as easy as picking up a mercury spill with a fork.

The additional point I was making is that it is the hard Left and the Muslims working together in protests predating even their opposition to the Afghan War that have slowly developed and refined these new communications tactics. And the hardcore Islamoids no doubt have also studied Chechen battle tactics and what works when it comes to insurgents killing American troops in Iraq - if they ratchet up to a lethal phase.

And another speculation I have is that these burnings and riots may have already been discussed ahead of time as likely by the French defense ministry and secret police. They have informers in the suburbs, especially the D.S.T. - one nasty bunch of badasses.

But are letting the burnings and insurrection go on so as to give the Muslims plenty of rope to hang themselves. Perhaps a decision exists within the French government that Muslim labor is not needed when less criminally-inclined, less subversive alternatives exist in Latin America, India, Asia......and that they have decided Islam cannot assimilate and the riots are a good way of convincing the public of that fact..

11/06/2005 06:30:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Yeah mika, the French should flush a few Korans, that would scare 'em.

Soon you'll have porker calling for the French to bomb the "Rock" to quell the violence in Paris.

The Mohammedan Emirs will emerge in the coming days. Negotiations will ensue, micro city states will be the likely outcome in the ghettos. Greater autonomy and Government support for the selfstyled Emirs, even less economic opportunity for the "youth".
No justice for the victims of the violence, just some ointment for the burns.

11/06/2005 06:36:00 AM  
Blogger JoseyWales said...

Anyone know of ANY French bloggers on this?? Help and/or links appreciated.

Or are they busy sticking their heads in the sand, in solidarity with their government?

11/06/2005 06:42:00 AM  
Blogger Marcus Aurelius said...

C4 sayeth thusly:

But are letting the burnings and insurrection go on so as to give the Muslims plenty of rope to hang themselves. Perhaps a decision exists within the French government that Muslim labor is not needed when less criminally-inclined, less subversive alternatives exist in Latin America, India, Asia......and that they have decided Islam cannot assimilate and the riots are a good way of convincing the public of that fact.

Perhaps but it sounds being too clever by half.

After yesterday's blog, I followd up at (http://bloggerbeer.blogspot.com/) on all of this. I did a little looking up on the millet system as used in the Ottoman empire and it too eventually broke down and resulted in gangs acting violently (both with official sanction and without).

On one level the millet system seems to be like federalism, but it really isn't. Federalism starts off with rules for everyone and those rules that are not made for everyone the subdivisions get to make (or not make) or deal with. The Millet system is a hodge-podge of areas following their own law separate from the common culture.

I wouldn't worry about a Buddhist millet but.....

11/06/2005 06:45:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Incremental advances by the Mohammedans, steady retreat by the Europeans.

In my youthful adventures in the Yucatan of Mexico I discovered that the "nobility" of Mexico went abroad to find their mates. The men to France and Spain, the women to Miami.

Mexico was remarkably Eurocentric, I thought at the time. It still is.
C4 is right, any number of Mexicans could emigrate to France, or anywhere else in Europe, and assimulate. The only disadvantage is that they cannot walk there.

11/06/2005 06:46:00 AM  
Blogger Paul said...

This all reminds me of a circa 1970 science-fiction story by Larry Niven, "The Last Days of the the Permanent Floating Riot Club." http://www.larryniven.org/reviews/l_summaries.htm People would organize to loot and riot, then suddenly appear at the appointed spot using teleportation telephone booths. Teleportation hasn't arrived yet and phone booths are quaint history today, but the arrival of the internet, Blackberrys, and cells phones has made the organized flash mobs of the story reality.

11/06/2005 06:47:00 AM  
Blogger Cardozo Bozo said...

Meme chose and Wretchard are right - there is no one person to negotiate with; there is no one group to surrender to.

The decentralized nature of this thing means that the French government must negotiate with ALL of them simultaneously, and use words they can all understand.

France must fight fire with fire. I say Chirac should burn a hundred Korans for every car, and make sure the TV stations cover it well so that every 'french youth' becomes aware of it at the same time. The incentive structure must be changed at a 'grassroots' level. France must also make clear that it can withstand a lot more escalation than 'muslim youths' can.

11/06/2005 07:21:00 AM  
Blogger Thomas the Wraith said...

That may all be true but the rioters are quite literally playing with fire and it is only a matter of time before their actions go over that line, if only by accident. How long until one of the high-rises goes down in flames? How many petrol bombs can they throw before a policeman is killed?

The "kids" may be playing brinksmanship with the police but without any kind of discipline or control how long before more sinister forces use the "kids" as cover to committ some act far more heinous than car-burning?

It is only luck that has allow these riots to continue for 10 nights without any serious loss of life. Each night the rioters are rolling the dice. Each night the odds increase for them to roll snake eyes. Then all bets are off. The police may be French but they are still police. Once one of their own is killed the time for brinksmanship will be over.

11/06/2005 07:22:00 AM  
Blogger Meme chose said...

"...the interesting conjecture that rioting "youths" in Paris have confined their primary mode of attack to car burning as part of a deliberate brinkmanship."

It may be worth pausing to note that in so doing these 'voyous' ('thugs') are demonstrating just how French they have really become. Anyone who has lived in France for any time has seen numerous instances of interest groups getting their way, inducing abject government capitulations, via carefully measured doses of rioting and property damage.

Truck drivers regularly hijack trucks and block major roads, farmers hijack imported agricultural products and dump them on the steps of the town hall, etc., etc. Just this summer in Provence they were piling up truckloads of imported Spanish tomatoes at the entrances of the discount supermarkets which had been selling them. None of this rated more than minor coverage in the local Nice paper, it's absolutely routine (nor was anyone apprehended, let alone prosecuted).

I'm sorry if these observations from inside the country appear to draw a rather confusing 'Alice in Wonderland' caricature of the rationally-run state the French would like to be seen running, but bizarre as it may seem this is how the French themselves traditionally behave.

The established view in many parts of French society, by no means only among Muslims or immigrants generally, a view which has been validated over and over again in practice, is that all of their politicians are so permanently and irretrievably corrupt, if you want a result the only way to get it is to take to the streets and start blocking traffic and smashing up property.

11/06/2005 07:23:00 AM  
Blogger NN said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

11/06/2005 07:29:00 AM  
Blogger NN said...

[previous comment deleted and replaced with this for clarity]
Wretchard:

Re: whom to negotiate with.

Yes, it has struck me that no demands have been made, no list of grievances from the perpetrators has been presented. All the talk about poverty and discrimination is from the armchair socialist bourgouisie in the form of Western journalists.

I took it to mean that the thugs were really only interested in destruction for destruction's sake. That's not to say that they are not pawns in a larger game. Maybe there are instigators waiting to step forward and present demands once this has gone one for long enough.

And Chirac smiling with relief into the cameras announcing an "honourable solution" has been found

11/06/2005 07:34:00 AM  
Blogger grrr1 said...

The simple fact that even you are calling the scum "insurgents" indicates to me that they are winning their propaganda war.

11/06/2005 07:34:00 AM  
Blogger Meme chose said...

"it has struck me that no demands have been made, no list of grievances from the perpetrators has been presented."

The 'traditional' way of agitating in France described above doesn't often involve presenting a coherent set of demands. This helps to preserve anonymity, and has been found over time to yield better results. The French state is usually left to work out the details of its own capitulation.

11/06/2005 07:49:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Would it be a PR victory for everyone to ignore the riots completely?
Would it be a PR victory to misrepresent the rioters as Franco versions of the "Crips & Bloods"?

An Insurgent, according to my Random House dictionary
1."A person who engages in armed resisitance to a government or to the execution of it's laws"
3. " rising in revolt; rebellioous."
Gas bombs are "Arms", sniping at police is resistance, large groups in the roaming the streets shooting and burning, both people and buildings is a form of revolt.

To not use the appropriate words keeps the debate away from reality.
I wonder if grrr1 believes that the Mohmmedans are engaged in a Global War or just independent acts of unrelated violence, world wide?
To deny that the Jihadists are engaged in Global War and that the assorted acts of violence are unrelated, that is the real Jihadist PR Victory

11/06/2005 07:59:00 AM  
Blogger NN said...

meme chose:

Nice. :o)

I've known about the French farmers and their inclination to clog up streets whenever they have "demands" that need to be met. And the authorities meeting them.

Struck me that the proper response from the authorities would be to respond by applying the proper amount of force necessary to preclude such a shameful deal, lethal if necessary. Same conclusion as before really but from another angle: not just to stop the criminals but to prevent a disastrous political conclusion. Judging by the past and present, however, this will not happen.

11/06/2005 07:59:00 AM  
Blogger VRWconspiracy said...

This inability to defend against the intifada because of clever tactics depends upon the French never openly accepting the nature of the existential threat to their nation and culture. Should they ever pass that threashold, the Islamists' tactical advantage will disappear.

The suburbs of France were designed from the beginning to be isolated, with limited access -- they are ghettos. Blockading and besieging these areas is possible once the French realize that the choice is between killing or deporting the unassimilatibles or being conquered. They may well throw political correctness, international law and domestic law on the scrap heap and attack their enemies' nests, regardless of the howls of the “world's” outraged. France can win that fight should they make that choice.

The form of cowardice known as political correctness or muli-culturalism has a steep price and the bill has come due.

11/06/2005 08:00:00 AM  
Blogger Thomas the Wraith said...

Police found a gasoline bomb-making factory in a southern suburb of the city, with more than 100 bottles, gallons of fuel and hoods for hiding rioters' faces, a senior Justice Ministry official said Sunday.
AP News

11/06/2005 08:00:00 AM  
Blogger erp said...

They want autonomy, but then who will sign their welfare checks?

11/06/2005 08:04:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

thomas
You have to be kidding, coordination of the "arms", not in Paris. These rioters are just misdirected youth, they can't have the organization required to have a "a gasoline bomb-making factory".

Remember there is no coordination of the rioters, except by internet and cell phones. They cannot have factories, these riots are just a case of "Spontaneous Combustion",
de Villepin and Chirac are sure of it.

11/06/2005 08:08:00 AM  
Blogger JoseyWales said...

wretchard and thomas the wraith,

Am I missing something here? Why do the authorities have to wait for someone to get killed?

The law does not apply until someone gets killed?

Has the "softness" of Europe taken them to this new "legal" territory, where Orwellian French minister for the "promotion of equal opportunity", Azouz Begag, carries more weight than the Interior Minister Sarkozy?

11/06/2005 08:20:00 AM  
Blogger Chester said...

Wretchard,

Your comparison with the battle of Second Fallujah is telling.

On the command and control side -- for the "rioters" -- we would all do well to examine the work, "The Advent of Netwar" by RAND researchers John Arquilla and David Ronfeldt. The entire text may be accessed for free at the RAND site:
http://www.rand.org/publications/MR/MR789/

I think what we witness in Paris and the rest of the area of operations of the Intifadah is exactly what Arquilla and Ronfedlt predict, much more than the insurgency in Fallujah was able to muster.

Also see, "Street Gangs: The New Urban Insurgency"

http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pdffiles/PUB597.pdf

I suspect, as your post predicts, that this entire phenomenon we witness in France will get much worse before it gets better.

11/06/2005 08:23:00 AM  
Blogger Meme chose said...

"Struck me that the proper response from the authorities would be to respond by applying the proper amount of force necessary to preclude such a shameful deal, lethal if necessary... Judging by the past and present, however, this will not happen."

French society has always consisted, despite the democratic veneer, primarily of a matrix of privileges (an aristocratic concept) assigned to different groups. Whether immigrants will be determined to possess the privilege allowing them to riot to get want they want (which for instance farmers in certain areas visibly do possess) is precisely what is in play right now. The outcome is uncertain.

In a way the rioting is constructive, in the sense that the immigrants are negotiating the real artifacts of French life (their specific privileges or lack of them) as opposed to their legal 'rights' (which in practice in France are more apparent than real).

A lot will turn on whether they find a way to 'play the game by the local rules'. This usually has to involve stopping the rioting before they are (immediately afterwards) given what they want, which is critical to the French political elites' ability to save face. The French government is as I write trying to find someone on the other side it can explain this to.

One more irony: this means that the rioters' own continuing actions are by now probably the only obstacle to their getting everything they can think to ask for.

11/06/2005 08:25:00 AM  
Blogger rufus said...

Uh, .... This is "France," right?

Next.

11/06/2005 08:33:00 AM  
Blogger Boghie said...

Smart people are using hyperbole to describe the conflict in France.

To the annoyance of both Francophiles and Leftist acolytes of the Fifth Republic, the actions in France at most still seem to be a battle of opportunity for the local disaffected. We do not know if it has been initiated, or is in the process of being assumed, by Islamist forces. It is a misuse of the word ‘war’ to ascribe it as such. Since the Global War on Terror has been ongoing for 20 - 40 years, and since the conflict is truly global, and since Europe has previously been a front in the conflict, we must watch for an opportunistic attempt to make France a Front or a Theater of the War. France is the Sickest Man in Europe - but she is by far not the only ill patient in the region. The problem for France is that the assumption by Islamists can occur quickly - and that the French have dithered in normal Leftist indecisiveness. Islamist forces can now capitalize on the power vacuum opening up in large swaths of France and Europe.

European appeasement in the GWOT may, in fact, lead to the war being fought here (as in Europe) rather than there (as in the Middle East). Europe may come to regret their inability to project force, but she may be saved by a stronger internal police than exists in America. The frightening thing about this rioting is that France's 'Fifth Republic' may fall in something as small as a regional battle. It may not take a theater campaign to collapse the surrender monkeys. That fact is as sad as it is frightening - and it harkens to a point behind Wretchard's point, that France fell to Nazism as well as to the German army.

If France falls, the pecking order will be Spain, then Italy, then Germany. To date, however, we have no proof that militant Islam has the ability to use this uprising. The Anglosphere may have destroyed this capability. Thus, America may once again save French bacon in a war between good and evil.

We shall soon see how organized militant Islam is...

We may soon see how militaristic the West is...

This is what President Bush strove to avoid...

11/06/2005 08:34:00 AM  
Blogger Pierre Legrand said...

The Millets will be unsatisfying to the Muslims since around the outside of the fence evidence will remain of the failure in Islam. The Millets will have to expand to an area that excludes all evidence of a better life. So where we stand now is the Second Battle of Tours, and laughing at the defenders of civilization might not be the wise course for those of us who imagine we are safe. The French again may be the key on which the fate of European civilization turns.

The French contrary to humorous popular opinion will not surrender. What will happen is the French will remember how to kill again and will remember how much they love their country. At that point the Muslims will be in deep trouble.

The comparison of Islam to the Cult of Jim Jones is an entertaing read. I had nothing to do with writing this but provide it simply for its entertainment value.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sinaawa20.htm

11/06/2005 08:35:00 AM  
Blogger grrr1 said...

[quote="desert_rat]I wonder if grrr1 believes that the Mohmmedans are engaged in a Global War or just independent acts of unrelated violence, world wide?
To deny that the Jihadists are engaged in Global War and that the assorted acts of violence are unrelated, that is the real Jihadist PR Victory[/quote] The tactic they are using now has been succesful since the days they use it for robbing caravans. We should recognize that the real enemy is ossifed tribal culture canonised in Koran. Calling them "insurgents" is dressing up an alien actor into Western ideological framework, thus pretending that they can be dealt with within this framework. It will not work.

11/06/2005 08:39:00 AM  
Blogger AK said...

Grozny seems too grand and grim an analogy to draw with the French riots at this point, by dint of the lack of arms, ideology and above all, homicides. The Los Angeles riots of 1992 were far more intense and violent in terms of assaults and deaths, while being of shorter duration. There is a vacillation in Wretchard’s coverage that is emblematic of much of the present political analysis (both MSM and blogosphere): that between a high-tech, covertly network coordinated clash of Islam and the decayed French state (Grozny) and frequently irreligious, lumpen-prole, minority youth gone wild (Cowboys and Indians):

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/06/weekinreview/06smith.html

“So far, while hundreds of cars and buses have been burned and dozens of businesses destroyed in violence that has spread to a dozen towns, most rioters appear to be teenage boys bent more on making the news than making a coherent political statement.

"It's a game of cowboys and Indians," said Olivier Roy, a French scholar of European Islam. He is usually keen to warn Europeans of the potential danger posed by Islamists living among them. But in this case, he said, the danger is a long-range one. So far, he said, the attacks on the police and the torching of cars has less the character of a religious war than of "a local sport, a rite of passage."

Are these punks really Chechen separatists or agents of Jihadi International? Or would race riots and soccer hooliganism be better models of comparison?

http://www.englischservice.de/hooligans3.html

11/06/2005 08:55:00 AM  
Blogger DaveK said...

I, too, think this will get far worse before it gets better...

If the French government capitulates/appeases the immigrant rioters, it will appear to get better while the wound festers below the skin and becomes gangrenous. Then the result will be mass deportations, revocations of citizenship, and possibly a low-grade general civil war.

If they choose to excise the problem now by taking relatively severe actions, the problem will certainly worsen for the short term, but there would be good prospects of a non-catastrophic resolution.

I think one of the influence peddlers we have to watch is the French unions. Which side will they come down on? They tend to be far-left oriented, and could easily try to side with the immigrant "insurgents". On the other hand, I suspect the radical muslim youth constitute a very small portion of their membership, and they just might side with the government on this. Whatever... they are a powerful force in France (and the rest of Europe), and should be included in the equation.

Just my $.02
DRK

11/06/2005 08:55:00 AM  
Blogger Ray said...

"We just want to be left alone" is properly translated as "This piece of France is now 'liberated territorty' - so chastise Sarkozy for daring to send cops to our lands, as if they were French territory."

The temptation to de Villepin and Chirac to take Sarkozy down a peg or two willmost likely rise to the top, so that any deal that does that, no matter how craven, will seem like a good trade-off to them.

Meanwhile the Islamists will take note, add up the measure of the victory, and plan the next campaign. To whatever extent the recent trouble had a spontaneous origin, a command and control structure has arisen as personal relationships and chains of leadership have been forged. Victory will make this network self-aware, so it can plan ahead, using the tactics discussed by Wretchard.

Two other important points raised by commentors here. 1. French society has long been super tolerant of strikers, farmers, vintners, etc., who engage in acts of disruption of the public order, and so it is particularly vulnerable to groups who would use such tactics not to push for a narrow self-interest, but rather to undermine French society itself. 2. Networks of radicals are likely to emerge not only among the rioters in the suburbs, but also across the cities to which the riots have spread. Eventually these will link up with Danish and other compatriots, forming a threat to civil society far greater that Europe has ever seen.

As the existential nature of the threat becomes unmistakable, the pressure to appease will only be match by the pressure for a brutal response by the Le Penistas. Will Sarkozy be able to steer the middle path, or will history see him as a Kerensky-like figure?

11/06/2005 08:56:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

If the rioters are French citizens, which it seems they are, and they are being utilized to modify the Policies of the French Government by force, they are Insurgents.
There may also be tribal elements to their discontent, but they are not Border Bandits. They are not Foreign Fighters. Their tactics are direct from the early days of the Intafada, not caravan raids against the spice trade. I have not read of looting, just violence.

Obviously, it is not about oil.
It is also not spontaneous, not on day eleven.
The only real question is if it related to the Global Jihad, I think it is, until proven otherwise.
If it is not related to the Jihad it is not important, at all.

11/06/2005 09:02:00 AM  
Blogger Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh said...

People on the right, i.e. people like me, sometimes seem to think that the French are by nature appeasers, but IMO, this urban unrest just isn't the same level of seriousness as the Wehrmacht in 1940. The rioters are acting from a fundamental position of weakness--for everything that has changed due to media coverage and disbersed communications, the death of the nation-state has been very much overblown. Even if the current government decides to appease, one day, the bill will come due, and the French state IMO will when the rubber hits the road preserve itself and crush this unrest in the same way it crushed it in Napoleon's day. The raw balance of power is too much in the hands of the organized state, and all the defeats of nation-states by insurgencies in the last 60 years have been in overseas theaters, whether it be Indochina, Algeria, or Aghanistan, as opposed to a nation-state's heartland. It'd obviously be better if the problem can be headed off at the pass right now with some mixed policy of greater vigor on the law-and-order front combined with a more workable model of assimilation, but if the French state dies, it won't be at the hands of these rioters.


WWSH

11/06/2005 09:11:00 AM  
Blogger Diodor Bitan said...

If it's not related to the Jihad, the Jihad certainly relates to it.

11/06/2005 09:24:00 AM  
Blogger Heloise said...

Desert Rat, I think you are right. These riots are related to the on-going world jihad. How could they not be? Muslims don't do well with spontenaity. The jihadis have been saying on the internet all summer that they would strike at Brussels, Denmark, France and Great Britain. Well . . .

The army of allah uses what's available, a surplus of angry, disenfranchised teenagers and young men with rocks, gasoline, anything that can be used as a weapon. Doesn't it remind you of the beginnings of the first intifada before the arabs had large amounts of cash to buy arms?
France will become another Israel as will the other dhimmi european nations and instead of any real retaliation, we will see instead concessions to them as the muslims continue their attacks until they achieve their goal of a territory governed by sharia within the host country. Then there will be more and more riots/attacks on civilians, along with muslim demographics and eurabia will be what our grandchildren study in school.

11/06/2005 09:30:00 AM  
Blogger Westhawk said...

We agree that the likely outcome of the riots in the medium term is the de facto establishment of enclaves which will gradually become Islamist controlled.

We are very surprised by how incompetent and unprepared the French government has been in responding to a problem they have surely considered for years. The alleged toughness of French internal security seems to be a myth.

Please see our post

Will France's fires scorch the Islamic world?

But, as our title suggests, Europe will have a backlash and a polarization in its politics. In the struggle against the Islamists, Europe will go from neutrality to armed belligerent. The Islamists will have to defend on another front.

There will be good news and bad news for U.S. foreign policy out of this. Europe, focusing on its internal security, will be not be able to help around the world, even where it might want to. On the other hand, it will no longer see the utility in opposing U.S. foreign policy.

Westhawk

11/06/2005 09:36:00 AM  
Blogger Boghie said...

AK,

Concur with folks getting a bit too excited about the impending doom of the Fifth Republic.

However, France is the Sick Man of Europe. It cannot assimilate new immigrants into a French society. Because France is soooooo multi-cultural it may be in fact non-cultural. As the sources you present imply - who is right...

The point of Wretchard's post and much of the discussion revolves around French citizens not being part of France. The question is: Who will fight for France. The fact that 'millets' formed imply that significant parts of France are not French. This isn't as pronounced in other European states. France's battle in the GWOT will not (hopefully) be against foreign fighters, but instead will be against its 'citizens'. France is Balkanized by 'tolerance' and 'multi-culturalism'.

By the way, the reaction of the French, Germans, and Spanish may not be as measured as that of America. If the Islamist do grab this brass ring they may initiate what President Bush deeply wanted to avoid - Total War...

11/06/2005 09:39:00 AM  
Blogger NN said...

Sorry for the off-topic comment, but have you noticed the contradictory kind of reporting that is now standard among MSM channels?

Classifying the criminals as "youth", carefully avoiding any references and words that might discredit multi-culturalism (like primitive superstition: not naming the evil will not make it real), asserting opinions as to the causes as if they were fact, and then in the middle of things, without any attempt to establish their importance, sentences such as these:

"Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin met eight key ministers and the head of the Paris mosque, Dalil Boubakeur."

"Reports of a police tear gas grenade hitting a mosque during the riots further inflamed feelings." (BBC News)

They really should omit all references to Islam if they were to be consistent. Funny thing is, they can't

11/06/2005 09:47:00 AM  
Blogger Common Cents said...

"LIBYAN leader Colonel Muammar Gaddafi called French President Jacques Chirac overnight to express his concern about rioting in Paris suburbs and other parts of France.

The Libyan national news agency reported that Mr Chirac thanked Colonel Gaddafi for his interest and reassured him that the situation was under control.

Colonel Gaddafi was reported saying Libya was “disposed to help France overcome these events,” which he described as “regrettable.”

The report did not outline what kind of aid might have been forthcoming."

Hat Tip: Beautiful Attrocities via LGF

Why wouldn't the French take Gaddafi
s help?

The French could make an agreement with Gaddafi to house French criminals. Any rioter who is arrested could be sent to prison in Lybia. After all the Lybians would be more sensitive to the Muslim religion.

Alternatively, the French could set up a work study program whereby disaffected Muslim youths could be sent to Lybia to work.

11/06/2005 10:07:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

Soon you'll have porker calling for the French to bomb the "Rock" to quell the violence in Paris.

I call for the "rock" to be destroyed to enable islam to grow PAST it's cult of the rock mentality.

mark my words, as islam continues to murder it's way across the globe, some country will do it...

11/06/2005 10:09:00 AM  
Blogger sammy small said...

The millet system seems to be a precursor to the tribal society, well known in Afghanistan and other Mideast territories.

Its ironic that as the coalition pushes a more democratic system on Afghanistan to replace the tribal past, France is drifting towards it.

11/06/2005 10:17:00 AM  
Blogger michael said...

As France and other European countries are now learning...

Its a long, long, long war. A world of Islam, a world of the infidels and its been going on since Mohammed's followers first carried out his words.

France finally joins with UK and USA in drafting UN resolution against Syria.

Two kids killed by their own accidental mistakes.

Imam steps in to save the day.

Lie to the infidel if you must.

Patience and time is on Allah's side.

Leaders of secular society long ago given over to existenialist views have no power against a religion that demands blood and martyr's from its members.

Repetition, repetition, repetition.

When one has no longer anything to die for they do not recognize the burning in others.

Gradually over time, little by little, a small community, grows larger, demands religous views be followed within the community, shuts down those original businesses that are of the infidels, the people are taught hatred of others outside their community, there is no where to go, no venue that is not seen as vice, no originality, no creation, only hatred, the edict is thrown from on high, from the Imam's that the world of the infidel is corrupting you, Christians are weak, Jews are trash and killers, Atheist below these, the Great Satan America is attacking everyone and on and on it goes, the message is taught every week, is funded and commanded to be followed and observed.

The only hope is war, a long war, but with the help of Allah, we will overcome...

So, Nigeria, Sudan, Ethiopia, Israel, India, Thailand, France, Spain, Turkey, Indonesia, Russia, the Stan's, America, England, and anywhere else that large communities of Muslims exist, there are Imam's who follow the Hadith's and Quran and understand the call to war against the infidel, the long battle, the 'world' war.

The whole world is at war and yet we do not see it because we are not on the inside looking out. We are the infidel.

It is a slow process, years, entire generations, countries slowly they rise within, a cancer that attacks slowly without warning, without notice until a sharp pain is fel; New York world trade center the first time and yet, a largely secular world deny its intentions, its virus, its cancer.

The 'virus' or the 'cancer' adapts to the 'body' where it lives and use their own 'defense mechanisms' that usually protect the body in order to mount chaos from within; notably freedom of speech, of religion, of assembly, of protest against the 'body' itself to air their grievances, the downtrodden, the masses who are not wanted, we will take care of them.

The 'unrecognized difference' being that unlike Christian theology or Judaism, Bhudist, or others which do not overtly or covertly advocate violence and whereas in direct opposite theology in fact Christ says, 'to love your neighbor, love your enemy', Islam teaches them exactly the opposite, to hate those not like themselves, but don't tell you that on the outside, we will instead tell you that Islam is Peace - once the whole world is Islamic.

And so it goes, over and over again, in every nation where the community grows larger, gets more power, exercises its rights, and then begin the protest, the taking over of communities politics, then the riots, then the outright killings of innocents, the seething anger within comes out to show its bloody face to all that there is only one God, and one will, that of Allah's, to live one way, to eat one way, to dress one way, to pray one way, to read one book, to know one language, to hate that which is different, to love that which is death, to demand one "fallen rock" from the heavens be touched by all every year in the name of one man who did not know if he had been possessed or was talking to an angel.

This is what faces us around the world today, 1000 killed in Thailand, 3000 in America, untold thousands in India, more in Spain, England, Denmark, earlier in the 80's and 90's in France, in Algeria, Morroco, Egypt, 1000's in Israel, Lebanon, Indonesia, Samalia, Kenya, Niger, Ethiopia, Russia and so many more places where the religion of peace takes hold.

And yet we are not at war with Islam, we are at war with fanatics of Islam, the very ones who follow the fundamentals of its code. And while people easily make comparisons to historic passages in time to that of the Roman Church, little do they understand the differences between the teachings of one religion to another. One advocates war by the sword, the other war by words or good news of a savior.

And so if we just pull everyone out of all these places in the world and let Islam live in Peace, we too will be in peace.

Right?

Or, if we just allow them to live by their religous dogma and stay out of their communities, we will be in peace.

Right?

Well, I know I'm preaching to the choir here on a Sunday, but you have to admit it does well to review a list of countries so glorified by Allah's will.

Maybe we should come up with a list of how Allah loves his people and Islam's people and countries are at peace, in prosperity, living at peace with other nations.

France, Europe and many of the left elitist in America have assumed for way to long that life is negotiable with Islamic fundamentalist.

It is not at all negotiable as any well learned fundamentalist Islamic will tell you.

And unlike Christian or Jewish fundamentalist. The Quran actually teaches that it is OK to lie to an 'infidel' in order that Allah's will be done in the long term.

And most importantly, unlike Christian and Jewish fundamentalist which teach the world comes to end and is reborn a new world, by the hand of God himself. The Islamic fundamentalist teach that they themselves must bring the world under submission for Allah.

Thus, peace treaties are only temporary truces so that Islamic places of war can progress onward as it regroups, plans and gathers resources for its next attack, its next war on the infidel and more lethal as more power is earned, more people aligned to its holy will of Allah.

The Quran states it is a war to last until all is conquered. This is the message of the book, all will come under Allah's will, either willingly or by the sword.

This is much different than the message of Judaism and Christian theology. Where these teachings say the whole world will know God one day, they never advocate the overthrow by sword of the whole world, only that the message will be heard, will be taught and those who decide to follow, will, those who do not, will not.

This is a war, not of poverty, but of message, one of love and forgiveness, the other of hate and brutal oppression.

Those who would rather it not be such a war, who wish it go away and not be bothered will be at a loss to understand why these two messages are being fought over.

Nevertheless, the battle continues and will continue as of now.

I find it very interesting in this battle that countries like China and Russia routinely support Islamic countries like Syria and Iran, Iraq, Sudan, etc. against free nations and usually stand against Israel.

Whereas France and other in Europe have tried to say that neither religion makes a difference and has therefore tried to stand neutral in a secularist way.

I think we will find now, all nations must make a choice. Sooner or later if not, the choice will be made for you as the Egytian Coptics have realized now for some time and many other countries, Islam advances and prisoners are held captive under Allah's will.

France, make your choice.

11/06/2005 10:26:00 AM  
Blogger 3Case said...

I agree with vrwconspiracy. I do not have great hope that the French will wake up fully to the threat.

As to with whom the French should be negotiating, it has been noted that the islamofascists have no identified leaders, which assumes there could be negotiation if there were; bad assumption, that.

The French should be negotiating the price of their rescue (once they actually wake up) with the U.S. now. As noted, only the U.S. has the means to defeat these fascists. They got 3 big freebies last century (WWI, WWII and the Marshall Plan). I cannot think of a reason they should get a 4th in a 100 years.

11/06/2005 10:29:00 AM  
Blogger NY GOPer said...

Does France have "right to bear arms" laws? These riots most likely would not happen in the U.S.; since our citizens have the second amendment and will protect our property from gangs bent on distruction and anarchy I suspect that the average American would prevent much of the damage that is going on in Europe.

11/06/2005 10:32:00 AM  
Blogger heather said...

Mark Steyn's new column is up, (see www.steynonline.com), and has an observation I had not thought of: The French cities are surrounded by no-go Islamic ghettoes. So, in fact, apart from all the money being made by the French Political Class from the UN, and etc., there was the reality of France's actual Dhimmi Status. It could not afford to send tons of soldiers to Iraq, and very probably could not send any to Syria either. And much of Islam has recognized that.

Also, my continuing rant about women: all my analysis and discussion about how women's position, and the family structure supported and enforced by Islam, means really: the Muslim Community CANNOT enter the 21st century without disintegrating. And facing that disintegration, the Muslims in Europe know they are fighting for their very being.

As Cederford pointed out, lots of exotic groups have entered Europe and integrated reasonably peacefully (ie, Cameroonians, Hindis, Sikhs, Buddhists).

The Muslims are different. To become modern, they must stop being Muslim. Tough.

And by the way, what does the ordinary Frenchman make of this?

11/06/2005 10:43:00 AM  
Blogger heather said...

And as the "youth" riot in Paris... the evil Zionist Israeli plot continues to weave its blood dripping web:
(from Lucianne.com):

Israeli vaccine could provide universal answer to flu epidemics
Israel 21st Century, by Allison Kaplan Sommer Original Article
Posted By: just wondering - 11/6/2005 11:13:57 AM Post Reply
Israeli company BiondVax doesn't claim to have the answer that will allay the mounting fears of a worldwide epidemic of avian flu. But they hope that in coming months, their long-term project to develop a 'universal flu vaccine' may help make a contribution towards finding an effective way to avert this global health crisis.

11/06/2005 10:50:00 AM  
Blogger al fin said...

Leftist multiculturalism breeds tribalism. Europe has chosen leftist multiculturalism, and thus tribalism. All the gains of western civilisation are being blithely discarded by the European left. Bloody tribalism is inevitable.

11/06/2005 10:53:00 AM  
Blogger RWE said...

As I have mentioned before, a frequent European criticism of Americans is that we lack a “Sense of History.” By this they do not mean a knowledge of history, but a sense of where we “fit” and how things are ‘done” by “us”.
Americans try to figure out handle a problem, inventing the best way as we go along.
This seems to infuriate Europeans, who, it appears, tend to fall back on concepts of national identity and on traditions associated with it.
When the Yom Kipper War started going badly for the Egyptians, with Israeli tanks across the Suez and the eastern SAM belt destroyed, they asked their Soviet advisors what to do next. The Soviets conferred and came up with a sure-fire answer:
“Retreat as far as you can and wait for winter.”
So, what will be the French reaction to the Muslim attacks, based on their sense of history, against attacks assaulting their very national identity?

11/06/2005 11:10:00 AM  
Blogger Cruiser said...

Perhaps this is too conspiratorial, but I think that it is very interesting that the French are suddenly having a very difficult time with their Muslim minority at the very time that France has been willing to take tough action against Syria and has been willing to show a little backbone with Iran (emphasis on little). Iran, is known for making other countries pay some price when they cross Iranian interests. Could all this this be stirred up by Iranian and Syrian intelligence (and other middle eastern regimes interested in maintaining the status quo)? If so, it is brilliant because it is not too violent, but is enough to keep the French government focused on its internal problems and hints to the French government that things could get much worse.

I would not be supprised to see the frnch government shortly make public statements calling for a reduction in the the pressure being put on Iran and Syria.

11/06/2005 11:31:00 AM  
Blogger gokart-mozart said...

Dave K is right on the money.

The important question is, is the European Left so far gone that they will promote a Red-Black-(Islamic) Green coalition to topple the State?

I don't think Muslim rioters can do this on their own. I think they can plow the road for the CGT and various soixante-huitard groups to do the job, though.

11/06/2005 11:35:00 AM  
Blogger VOXAMERICAVOXDEI said...

"Could all this this be stirred up by Iranian and Syrian intelligence "

An interesting thought and at least in my own opinion, not too paranoid or conspiratorial at all.

The thing that bothers me most about the French riots is that I grew up in the 70's and HATED disco...and in the last 10 days, I haven't been able to get the "Disco Inferno" song out of my head..."burn, baby, burn..." :D

11/06/2005 11:46:00 AM  
Blogger EB said...

My initial reaction is that something like this would not have been pre-planned but then before 9-11, I scoffed at what I thought was a ridiculous plan of a few years back for some jihadists to blow up several planes simultaneously.

Radical Islam has had a lot of experience and has learned a lot about effective tactics over the years.

Even now I wonder if I am over reacting to this situation but then I find that nothing is beyond the possible anymore.

""youths" in Paris have confined their primary mode of attack to car burning as part of a deliberate brinkmanship. Car burning is spectacular, serious enough to get attention yet -- and this is the vital point -- not serious enough to provoke lethal force. By staying just shy of the threshold, the rioters can maximize their rate of propagation at minimum danger to themselves"

Here is my question, at what point is property and infrastructure damage enough to provoke lethal force? Surely there is a line that can be crossed, the number of cars or buildings that can be torched, where there is a legitimate call to use whatever force is necessary to stop a disintegration in public order isn't there?

11/06/2005 11:56:00 AM  
Blogger jd said...

joseywales,

French bloggers?
I know I got in late, but you may try this one: http://no-pasaran.blogspot.com/

JD in Oslo

11/06/2005 12:00:00 PM  
Blogger EB said...

My initial reaction is that something like this would not have been pre-planned but then before 9-11, I scoffed at what I thought was a ridiculous plan of a few years back for some jihadists to blow up several planes simultaneously. Radical Islam has had a lot of experience and has learned a lot about effective tactics over the years.

Even now I wonder if I am over reacting but then I find that nothing is beyond the possible anymore.

""youths" in Paris have confined their primary mode of attack to car burning as part of a deliberate brinkmanship. Car burning is spectacular, serious enough to get attention yet -- and this is the vital point -- not serious enough to provoke lethal force. By staying just shy of the threshold, the rioters can maximize their rate of propagation at minimum danger to themselves"

Here is my question, at what point is property and infrastructure damage enough to provoke lethal force? Surely there is a line that can be crossed, the number of cars that can be torched, where there is a legitimate call to use whatever force is necessary to stop a disintegration in public order isn't there?

11/06/2005 12:04:00 PM  
Blogger Huan said...

Ammar Al-Asfar, an official in charge of the CFCM's Muslim chaplains’ department, welcomed the Justice Ministry’s move to appoint a Muslim chaplain to address the religious needs of the Muslim prisoners.

“The French Muslims are pleased with efforts to appoint Muslim chaplains for Muslims in prisons, army, hospitals and elsewhere,” he told IslamOnline.net Wednesday, May 4.

He, however, expressed reservations at the way followed by the French Justice Ministry to pick up the Muslim chaplain.

“We were surprised with the ‘emergency’ request put forward by the French ministry and naming the Muslim chaplain in advance,” he said.

“The CFCM has been working on the issue of the Muslim chaplains for Muslim prisoners, who make up 70% of prisoners in the French jails,” he stressed.

Last year, a French study revealed that Muslims make up between 50-70% of prisoners in the French jails.

The French Justice Ministry has been keen to appoint a Muslim chaplain for Muslims prisoners in an effort to combat what it terms the “Salafi” religious stream in the French prisons, IOL learnt from sources at the CFCM.

May 05

11/06/2005 12:41:00 PM  
Blogger jim said...

I agree with Cruiser and others that the Syrian and Iranian connections are extremely plausible, given the timing of recent diplomacy and tough talk by Chirac on Syria and Ahmadinejad's fanatical ravings. Also, thanks to Heather for stressing the gender fault lines within structurally flawed Muslim society. So right you are.

Anyway, seems you can take France out of Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco, but you can't take them out of France. Will Chirac say "Je vous ai compris", as de Gaulle once did and with similar results? Whether anti-colonialism and pan-Arabism then or post-colonial angst and Islamism now, these movements and restiveness, we keep getting told, are born of political oppression and dismal social and economic conditions. But Islam is society, economy and, increasingly, governance for millions of Muslims and in too many faltering and failed states, so how does the West accommodate cultural sensibilities and organizational needs of its Muslim immigrant population, especially when they are inimical to liberalism and oppressive and don't lend themselves to fostering competition and prosperity that we (used to) value in our civ? What justice do we give ourselves and to the Muslim immigrants among us that actually works without social and economic disruption, and will it be the same justice?

French, Danish and other Euro Muslims don't want to integrate their ghettos into their host countries' societies, they want to keep them as jurisdictions unto themselves and Islam. If it's left up to de Villepin, France's African/Muslim immigrants who fume in failure and demand a separate justice and identity just might get their way. He wouldn't even have to do much, since the ghettos already operate under a de facto separateness (and none too successfully, but that's not the point). Sarkozy went and stirred them up, that's the problem of the day, and now the one French official who may have really understood the ghetto rebels might have to exit stage right and wait for the next act. For a while, the French might try a policy of realpolitik and stability-above-all in the ghettos, just as they and we practiced toward the conservative Muslim and old-fashioned fascist fiefdoms of the Middle East during the Cold War. But then the Soviet advance was being checked, and now our current Islamist enemies would not only be unchecked, but would end up running the ghettos in short order, imo. Sooner than we think Gina Davis may have to make the case for an intervention in the burbs of France to upset the totalitarian status quo and its poisonous export (Euro-Islamism, but escargot figures in there somewhere).

11/06/2005 12:53:00 PM  
Blogger heather said...

and "c", the trouble with 'making a deal' with the Muslim ghettos is that such a western process will be seen by the 'youths' as weak, the sort of thing the Dhimmi world will try; and in itself will be an invitation for more attack, more aggression. And more emigration of the Dhimmi from Europe to.. to the US, to Canada (Canada is fast declining into Dhimmitude, at least in the East); Australia?
The Brussels Journal has a great column now, in which he asserts that the 'youths' are not rioting because they are left out of the Western World of France; they riot because they HATE the West, and are contemptuous of it.
www.brusselsjournal.com

11/06/2005 01:03:00 PM  
Blogger kstagger said...

I had a friend who stayed in France with his wife for 6 months. He was staying in a conservative area, and the general feeling of the Muslim immigrants was decidedly negative. He went to bars, clubs,etc where any immigrant looking person was refused service and forcibly removed.

The current crisis can only make Chirac look weak, and strengthen the hand of Le Pen.

11/06/2005 01:14:00 PM  
Blogger Mətušélaḥ said...

Rat,
You disappoint me. You seem to suffer from the same malaise others accuse the French of suffering. Your self imposed limits are born out from misguided perception. Misguided perception cleverly imposed through distorted reality constructs manufactured by Leftist/Islamist propaganda kingpins and their propaganda organs.

Think for a sec. What's the worst that could happen, if say for example, we were to go after Islamic structures of power be they, military, economic, emotional/religious, or whatever. What can they do? The answer, they can do nothing.

11/06/2005 01:17:00 PM  
Blogger NN said...

According to this 29 policemen have been wounded in one place, 2 seriously, by gunfire (via No Pasaran)

Don't French police have guns?

11/06/2005 01:44:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

until the west understand that islam could care less about life of either their own or others and that what they care about are islamic symbols and pride...

thus destroying islamic SYMBOLS hurts them MORE than 100,000,000 million islamic deaths...

let's save them the genocide, nuke a rock...

11/06/2005 01:58:00 PM  
Blogger grrr1 said...

"There may also be tribal elements to their discontent, but they are not Border Bandits."
Every "Border Bandit" learn his trade somewhere before he became "Border Bandit". Consider those "milets" an Islamists educational department.

"They are not Foreign Fighters."
So?

"Their tactics are direct from the early days of the Intafada, not caravan raids against the spice trade." And where the tactics of "the early days of the Intifada" came from?

"I have not read of looting, just violence." You will. Right now the organaisers are testing and estimating what they can do. Looting will come later.

11/06/2005 02:01:00 PM  
Blogger RWE said...

ny goper: My thoughts exactly. Nanchee has mentioned this as well.
In fact, in the southeast U.S., much of the midwest and a good portion of the southwest, as well as scattered sections elsewhere, taking care of such riots with one's personal weapondry would be close to being defined as "recreation."
Don't send the Marines to help France.
If you send anyone, send the rednecks.

11/06/2005 02:04:00 PM  
Blogger RWE said...

P.S., in regards to the statement by Olivier Roy "It's a game of cowboys and Indians," I assume that everyone has heard the joke that ends with:
"Well, we ain't played comboys and Muslims yet."

11/06/2005 02:08:00 PM  
Blogger jim said...

Heather,


Re dhimmitude vs. rectitude: agreed, dispensing tough love or maybe just tough would be more moral and effective in the long-run, especially if we communicate to the Muslim community that it needs to alter its idea of what a good Muslim is and not expect us to accommodate its extremism and dysfunctionality. Western Muslim demands should be met with our demand that they reform, not us. Only then would the multi-culti fetishists' sense of healing and mutual respect follow, no thanks to them.

11/06/2005 02:45:00 PM  
Blogger Peter UK said...

grrr1

There is probably widespread looting as well,but as yet no one can get into the banlieus the evaluate the damage.The police are too busy covering their arses.

11/06/2005 03:33:00 PM  
Blogger Marcus Aurelius said...

RWE,

Going by history they will attack the Brits.

11/06/2005 03:38:00 PM  
Blogger Peter UK said...

It isn't neccessary to look to Syrian and Iranian intelligence,an Algerian Salafist group threatened violence prior to the riots. dated the 27 of October

11/06/2005 03:47:00 PM  
Blogger Peter UK said...

Marcus Aurelius.
Fortunately our Muslim community is not Algerian but From the Indian subcontinent,we don't have a large North african population for them to hide in.
All we have to say is "We don't blame you people one bit,those Frenchies treat everyone like shit!"

11/06/2005 03:51:00 PM  
Blogger Marcus Aurelius said...

Pork Rinds for Allah says:
until the west understand that islam could care less about life of either their own or others and that what they care about are islamic symbols and pride...

This is right. The Islamomilitants are not afraid of death they are afraid of being buried with a pig, they are afraid of a Koran being desecrated, etc.

This is why that Koran flushing story was not so bad as one would think. The leftist reaction was nutty as usual but the story itself was not (upon reflection) as big a problem as one supposes. If one is going to utilize the idea that the Islamofascists are only afraid of the Korn being desecrated or similar, then Koran desecrations have to be publicized.

Hehe. They put out videos of beheadings we put out news articles of Koran desecration. Their intention is to strike fear into our hearts, the publishers of the Koran desecration stories have what as their motivation?

11/06/2005 03:56:00 PM  
Blogger Marcus Aurelius said...

Peter UK,

So sorry I was not specific enough (I'm distraught, the Pack is on their way to a 1-7 record). What I meant to say was the FRENCH would turn around and attack the UK along the lines of Vichy France.

Mea Culpa

11/06/2005 04:00:00 PM  
Blogger Marcus Aurelius said...

One last comment.

A buddy went to France and reported back to me with the stereotype, and I mentioned they seem to be more hospitable if one speaks French. He snorted and retorted the French are then rude in French.

None-the-less, us and our distant fifth cousins twice removed against complete strangers.

11/06/2005 04:02:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

mika
Just what are the centers of Mohammedan power will you attack in France? A Mosque or two? Burn their buildings?
Mohammedan power grows from their people, not the buildings or infrastructure. Perhaps, as Porker suggests the "Rock" could be a target, but France will not attack KSA to solve it's domestic turmoil, even if it should.

The French could decapitate the Mohammedan society in France. Kill the "Emirs" instead of negotiating with them, but I doubt if they will, this round.

grrr1
You seem to miss the point, or I do. These rioters are now operating, as W's update says, in platoon size elements. They are not "rioting" in the historical sense. They ARE engaged in asymetrical warfare.
They are French citizens, they are in open revolt, the do show disregard for the Law, they are rebellious.
They are Insurgents. By definition.
That they are, most likely encouraged and aggitated by Mohammedan Imams and possibly Iranian or Syrian agents is not beyond belief. That they are semi trained by those Imams or agents in their millets is of secondary importance.
The primary point of our original discussion was, I thought, your objection to calling them Insurgents, which is, again by definition, what they are.
Calling them by other names does not change their character.
In Iraq it took months for the Administration to call the Opfor, there, Insurgents, which is what most of them were, the entire time.
The truth of the matter is the "rioters" are not immigrants, they were born and bred in France. France, as it exists, has failed them. They are attempting to reshape the country, even if, as individuals, they do not realize it.

11/06/2005 04:31:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

ny goper -

Does France have "right to bear arms" laws? These riots most likely would not happen in the U.S.; since our citizens have the second amendment and will protect our property from gangs bent on distruction and anarchy.

With lack of intelligence and the Islamists having the initiative and attacking infrastructure or population nodes where gun defense is impractical or downright impossible based on number of targets (400,000 possible targets in the US) - gun ownership is a fairly useless counterterrorism tool. Better we had half a million Americans trained in Urdu and Arabic than half a million new guns. There isn't much a "gun wielding hero" can do with his new .454 Casul with the "Evildoer Eliminator laser Sight and Pachmar combat grips unless the radical Islamists decide to invade the gun lovers house for a terror attack on Sam Podurski of Dayville, OH, and his wife, and youngest son still at home. The war will not be decided in any way by the individual gun owner exercising his/her 2nd Amendment rights. The Islamists are smarter than that. They thoroughly scout their targets and their weapon - be it anthrax dust, a bomb, a sudden attack on a soft target like a church or school is done suddenly and no gunowner is going to stop them.

As for just shooting rioting Parisien youth, I can't seem to remember, it was before my time - where white civilians from safe areas went into the cities in the midst of the black riots and burnings in the 60's and began shooting lots of blacks and restoring order.

That gun ownership defeats or hinders Islamic violence in any way is just a NRA fantasy.

And it also works both ways. Muslims can buy guns here. Last summer I encountered 4 Muslims at the rifle range. Two had Dragunovs, one a AR-15, and between them had several handguns and combat style shotguns. The two were born in Syria, but now American citizens. The other two were a Jordanian-Palestinian, one a Syrian awaiting permanent refugee visa. Friendly guys, though one chanted "allah u' akbar" when he squeezed off rounds. The Jordanian was ex-Army and an incredibly good shooter with his friends Dragunov and my Remington .270 - the other 3 were competent shots except two had no real handgun experience. The Dragunovs were great. 30-round banana clips and the Muslims were more generous with their ammo than I was, except for the 9mm stuff where I had 500 rounds in the trunk.

Hope they were just friendly folk here - but until we infiltrate the Muslim community or get the language skills we need - we won't know.

Got an invite to visit the Syrian Americans tribal clan someday up by Aleppo. One's over there now, as I recollect - for all of November, to marry some suitable child-bearer his uncle found. I said I wanted to see the Roman ruins there, his clan, and visit Damascus sometime but worried about American popularity not being so hot, so I took a rain check.

Saw one of the brothers alone at the range in October. He liked shooting my .270 enough he bought one and was scoping it in. "I am to shoot my first deer!! Are they tasty?" He had also traded in his .9mm after being counseled by the resident gun nuts at the range that it was a pussy gun and had gotten a used .45

Wonder what that Jordanian is up to. He moved to Detroit.

11/06/2005 04:35:00 PM  
Blogger gokart-mozart said...

Marcus Aurelius is right to worry.

The present European leadership will never fight the UK or the US. They don't have the balls, for one thing.

But the bloody history of Europe is only waiting for new leaders to be resurrected.

The Islamic Republic of France will be a much more formidable adversary than the post-Christian version.

11/06/2005 04:48:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

C4
While I believe it's true that no white gun owners went into Watts or Detroit, in the 60's, to shoot rioting blacks, it is also true that Korean Americans defended their S. Cal. buildings in the '90s & '00s with weapons. This is a documented truth. Defensive tactics by armed citizens had an effect.
It is also true that there would be no car burnings on my block, here in Phoenix, no matter the race or ethnic / religious background of the rioters. We have a tremedously low crime rate in my area, every household here is assumed to be armed, most are.
An armed society is a polite society, here in the modern wild west.

11/06/2005 04:48:00 PM  
Blogger GannMan said...

Palestine on the Seine?

The historical ironies are just getting to be too much here.
For instance:

Will the French ask Isreal for help in dealing with the New Intifada?
Will the "insurgents" settle for a Two State solution?
Will an Arab country put forward a UN resolution demanding the withdrawl of French forces from "occupied" territories?

The French are paralyzed and the rioters know it. If they start shooting the "wannabe" kids, there will be an international uproar and the big boys will show up with big bombs to "defend Muslim children". Meanwhile France is being totally humiliated by the "B" team with the pending nightmare of being seen as
another Isreal.

Osama and the Mullahs must be ROFL. In their dreams they couldn't imagine it would be this easy.

11/06/2005 05:04:00 PM  
Blogger Entangling Alliances said...

The Daily Demarche has a similar article up- France and all of Europe are facing civil war and the "rioters" aren't being shy about it "It's like Baghdad here! It's the Apocalypse!"

11/06/2005 05:15:00 PM  
Blogger sam said...

Chirac vows arrests and trials in riots:

The rioting erupted Oct. 27 after two teenagers of north African descent were accidentally electrocuted as they hid in a power substation, apparently believing police were chasing them. Anger was then fanned anew days ago when a tear gas bomb exploded in a mosque in Clichy-sous-Bois - the northern suburb where the youths died.

Government officials have held a series of meetings with Muslim religious leaders, local officials and youths from poor suburbs to try to calm the violence.

Chirac Vows Arrests

11/06/2005 05:23:00 PM  
Blogger Marcus Aurelius said...

Desert Rat,

You are correct. One of the things government is supposed to do (at least our Western style of government) is to protect our life, limb, and property. As long as people are able to share a common understanding of what constitutes life, liberty, and property then all is well. European governments have been able to hold their end of the bargain fairly well, until now.

We here in the USA have a different experience. We have a instinctive distrust of our government and do not cede all of our rights to self protection.

Now substantial numbers of people in France are having their cars destroyed. I can not imagine replacing a car in France is cheap (even if buying a cheap French car), and I have a hard time understanding why there is not more outrage about it (actually, I can, is it being reported accurately?)

I live in an area where the people have a very good common understanding of what is in bound and out of bounds. Unfortunately, we were burgled once (a fair amount of middle eastern gold was taken, much to the dismayment of The Empress). None-the-less, my guns are up north to defend the cabin from ruffed grouse, and whitetail deer.

C4, the reason the mobs in France resort to torching cars is because they are defenseless, Wretchard's update shows the mobs can work in small and quick units. If they had to wonder if Car owner X would greet them with a .30-06 semi-automatic or pump (even a .30-30 would suffice) then there would be less of that crap. If the police and govt can not defend you then the job falls onto yourself.

11/06/2005 05:31:00 PM  
Blogger Thomas the Wraith said...

From the NYT:
'Rioters fired shotguns at police in a working-class suburb of Paris Sunday, wounding 10 officers as the country's fast-spreading urban unrest escalated dangerously ... "This is just the beginning," said Moussa Diallo, 22. ... "It's not going to end until there are two policeman dead." ... It seemed only luck that by Sunday night, no one had been killed."
The National Front is calling for a state of emergency to be declared under a law last used by Mitterrand 20 years ago. Given that 19% of the French voters supported le Pen in the last election years ago I think it's a safe bet that at least that many support the NF today.

The real losers from these events will be the French Jews. If either the Islamists of the rightist are strenghtened from these riots the atmosphere in France will increasingly anti-Semitic.

11/06/2005 06:07:00 PM  
Blogger Boghie said...

Does anybody remember:

Where Ayatollah Khamenei (version I) resided prior to the Iranian revolution?

Yup, France...

I was travelling in Europe in 1987 when France was attacked by militant Islamic terrorists. They tried to stop all travel at the borders...

In the 1970's Europe was in the midst of a direct Islamic/Leftist insurgency.

Soon we will call this the second GWOT.

11/06/2005 06:23:00 PM  
Blogger 'eathen said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

11/06/2005 06:31:00 PM  
Blogger Marcus Aurelius said...

TTW,

Tim Blair points out a Reuters AlertNet story on the same.

In December of 1992 after the Adohya Mosque was ransacked by Hindus in India, there were riots in the UAE. The police went into the industrial part of town (Al-Ain, the industrial part was referred to as Al-Sanaya) to put a stop to the riots and the rioters shot back (surprsie!). Most of the rioters were Batanis (aka Pashtuns) who had gunsmitthing skills. Hence they had guns.

Yet another example of the lawless ignoring the laws and having guns hence gaining advantage over the law abiding.

11/06/2005 06:31:00 PM  
Blogger 'eathen said...

It seems obvious to me that Western Europe is the canary in the coal mine. Given the global, low-level conflict between Western civilization and Islamic fundamentalism, what strikes me as tragically comic is that France (and most other governments of Western civilization) have -- by past actions -- defined the rules of domestic engagement in a manner that ensures their defeat.

The question is -- and always has been -- will Western civilization fully wake to the nature of the conflict while it is still winnable?

Seven decades ago France did not. The UK did, barely. So did the US.

Most people today assume the Allied victory in WWII was inevitable. It was not.

What would have been the consequences for the world had the US waited six more months to engage the Axis? A year? Would the Allies still have prevailed?

We dithered 70+ years ago and we're dithering now. In France (and the US) the conflict is a nothing more than a backdrop for domestic political gaming.

What frightens me is that I'm beginning to believe that our deliberate ignorance of reality may be strong enough to survive a truly horrific escalation by our enemies. If Iran reduced Tel Aviv to a glassy crater (as the Iranian president this week advocated), how many Western bien pensants would feel compelled to characterize the action as a response (however regrettable) to past Israeli actions?

Has our civilization no memory?

"History, despite its wrenching pain, cannot be unlived, but if faced with courage, need not be lived again."

Maya Angelou
A Brave and Startling Truth

11/06/2005 06:33:00 PM  
Blogger Red River said...

The fishy things about this are:

1. The deliberate fire bombing.
2. The duration of it.
3. The apparent coordination.

What is the dollar damage to the French Economy?

Think about it - a Muslim led group finds a unique way to use small teams to damage and paralyze a Western Nation using novel means of destruction.

11/06/2005 06:39:00 PM  
Blogger Jamie Irons said...

the radical

You wrote (about the MSM):

They really should omit all references to Islam if they were to be consistent. Funny thing is, they can't...

I tried to make this point in a post about an article from an excellent NYT reporter early this morning.

Jamie Irons

11/06/2005 06:47:00 PM  
Blogger Red River said...

I lived in Pasadena during the LA "Rodney King" Riots.

The riots spread to the suburbs. The police in the suburbs shot anyone who broke into anything.

The local big box retailer put a ring of shopping carts around the front of the store and stationed employees with shotguns on the roof.

Ashes from the fires fell like radioactive fallout on my street in little flakes and the sky stank like a crematory.

I felt very naked - having just left the Army and moved to LA to go to school - I'd sold my .45 that I used to carry in Texas. I had no weapon.

If this happened in Texas, by the third night, we'd organize roadblocks and checkpoints. Anyone caught with any firebombs would have the shit beaten out of them for starters. I imagine some would get doused and set on fire. Anyone caught torching something would be shot. No jury anywhere would convict. Any DA who tried to indict would be thrown out of office.

11/06/2005 06:51:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

Marcus - Having your well-polished with Hoppes firearm security blanket means nothing. Terrorists simply shift targets if the scouting teams determine the initial targets are well-defended. In well-armed societies like Israel, which has tight Border control and people walking all over with automatic weapons, better to just get around the firearm edge the Zionists have and just bomb them. Israel took the equivalent of 55,000 American casualties as a portion of their population.

And so you got your 30'06 or your .45 caliber Thompson short range Evildoer Fighter special and your car, maybe not at work or on the road or a shopping mall is guarded by golly by your determination to spew lethal lead if it is parked in front of your house. Means little. They then just select unguarded targets and burn down your kid's school, the neighborhood electric substation, a business or two at 4 AM, some other persons car. It's war and a systematic assault, not just individuals going mano a mano in the Old West.

An armed society is a polite society, here in the modern wild west.

Nonsense.

Sierra Leone is an armed society except when they chop limbs off rival tribesman. Pakistan and Afghanistan live by the blood feud and tit for tat. Well armed Indians spent their whole life as a brave either killing, stealing from other tribes or plotting to do so or bragging their exploits.

It depends on the culture to determine politeness, not firearms ownership. Gun ubiquitous Switzerland is polite, but so is gun shy Germany. Singapore is an exceptionally polite gun-free place, but the well armed warlord led tribes of the Golden Triangle are not.

Giving guns to every Parisian or South African would not ensure politeness. It would ensure mass murder due to the cultures. BUt giving a gun to everybody in Iceland would have no significant violent effect.

11/06/2005 06:58:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

boghie -

Soon we will call this the second GWOT.

I hope not.

Calling the 1st one "GWOT" was an ignorant slogan pushed by Bush that should have been retired in early 2002.

We are not in conflict with those anywhere using the tactic of terrorism. Half our "noble freedom fighters" most recently the Northern Alliance Tadjiks and the Kurdish PRK were terrorists. Same with Reagan's beloved "freedom fighting Mujahadeen". Same with 3 admitted terrorists becoming PM of Israel.

No, we are in a struggle against the ideology of radical Islam and honestly give a rat's patootie if the Hutus are being terrorized by the Tutsis in the Congo, or vice versa this particular week.

11/06/2005 07:14:00 PM  
Blogger Basspastor said...

Off Topic Question:

AP says: "...Sunni parties, having narrowly failed to veto the document in last month's referendum,..."

Is yet another example of pathetic AP reporting? Or did the referendum pass by a narrow margin? I figured Belmont Cluber's would know. All I know is that the referrendum passed, I have not as of yet read a breakdown of the vote.

Thanks BP

11/06/2005 07:16:00 PM  
Blogger Marcus Aurelius said...

Has anyone heard of anything said by Le Pen about any of this?

Things here sound very UKish prior to WWII. What I mean is we had Winston warning everyone about Hitler and few people would listen, it sounds like very similar to the case of Mr. Sarkozy. Lets hope Mr. Sarkozy wins the fight ahead.

11/06/2005 07:36:00 PM  
Blogger Marcus Aurelius said...

C4,

Well at least MY car is not torched.

It is quite obvious the police can not be everywhere at once, so then part of our responsibility is not too be victims. Part of that is common sense don't go into areas known for the production of victims. Part of it is defending yourself.

Truth of the matter is concealed carry opponents have claimed time after time that the latest state to approve concealed carry would turn into the OK Corral. Fact is none have, in fact at worst crime rates remain steady if not fall after concealed carry is passed.

11/06/2005 07:42:00 PM  
Blogger Mətušélaḥ said...

desert rat writes: Mohammedan power grows from their people, not the buildings or infrastructure.

That's a mistaken assessment. Mohammedian power grows from lands they ransack, thus forcing non muslim out. All you need do is reverse that equation.

11/06/2005 07:49:00 PM  
Blogger ledger said...

Yes, I agree with Red River: The fishy things about this are:

1. The deliberate fire bombing.
2. The duration of it.
3. The apparent coordination.

What is the dollar damage to the French Economy?

Think about it - a Muslim led group finds a unique way to use small teams to damage and paralyze a Western Nation using novel means of destruction
.

This is logical.

And I agree with Cruiser, c, and others. There could be state/AQ sponsorship fanning the flames.

c observes: I agree with Cruiser and others that the Syrian and Iranian connections are extremely plausible, given the timing of recent diplomacy and tough talk by Chirac on Syria and Ahmadinejad's fanatical ravings...

Rat, ny goper and RWE's point on citizen gun ownership is spot on. I was attending a college in LA during the Riots. During the Riots every guy I knew carried a gun to class (discretely). The second day of the riots most gun stores were sold out of 9 mm and 45. apc ammo much to my displeasure (although that was quickly remedied by Fedex and other delivery services). Within a day private security personnel in Korea town were openly bearing arms on roof tops. At the end of the 5 day period it was reported that about 50,000 hand guns were sold (there was a 5 day waiting period at that time). The riots soon died down.

As for the rules on French citizens owning guns, I am not expert yet, I have read on various sites that you must go through a long application process (background checks and so on) and belong to a sporting/hunting club, have proof of some level of fire arms training, and keep records of your on going affiliation with said sporting/hunting club. The guns have to of a certain type (shot gun or rifle with low capacity magazines and so on). Some people say the French can buy a 22 caliber rifle (22 long rim cartridge) with little hassle (now others suggest buying replicas of black powder pistols of yesteryear for self protection - I don't know the details of antique gun ownership). Maybe an expert on the subject could fill us in the details of gun ownership in France.

Meme chose seem to have a good grip on French society: ...Anyone who has lived in France for any time has seen numerous instances of interest groups getting their way, inducing abject government capitulations, via carefully measured doses of rioting and property damage.

My question: Exactly, who's cars are getting BBQ'd? It's it the Islamic Thugs cars? Is it elite French citizen's cars? Is there an insurance angle to burning cars that makes them good targets? I would assume most cars would be insured. But, I also assume, that some people in France may lash out when their new car gets torched. Or maybe, all the cars in France are insured and said victims of burned cars will get a check.

If these cars are insured which insurance company would have the greatest liability? And, if it's a public company please provide the ticker symbol.

11/06/2005 07:55:00 PM  
Blogger Boghie said...

Cedarford,

We are at war with militant Islam… However, our conflict does bleed into other terrorist conflicts. I think it is clear that most, if not all, terrorist organizations have taken dramatic physical and financial hits – hits they will probably not survive if we keep the pressure on.

What I am stating is that America was late to the war. Israel and Europe were early combatants. Europe had a long vacation from conflict after Marxism/Communism drew its last breath. It took militant Islam years to recover from the loss of their key sponsor state. The only enemy militant Islam could reach in the interim - and simultaneously generate unacceptable casualties - was Israel.

Militant Islam is, however, back in the swing of things. On the other hand, until we have demonstrable proof of Islamofascist coordination we have to view these uprisings as local conflicts. The scary thing is that these riots could easily be assimilated into the anti-West jihad if they are not tamped down - and if the jihadi leadership can reach out and touch these ‘youths’. These people hate France and they hate the West. These second and third generation French ‘immigrants’ are not French, will not be permitted to be French, and do not want to be French. They are balkanized populations.

This is the vast difference between America and Europe.

Time will tell.

11/06/2005 08:08:00 PM  
Blogger Basspastor said...

Since, ya'll were of no quick help. I googled and blogger Secular Blasphemy confirms that it was rejected in two and narrowly passed in Nineva Province.

AP has it right, even though to note such is irrelevent.

11/06/2005 08:17:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

C4
While not all armed folks in the world are polite, there is a MAD deterent effect when everyone may be.
It is true that not all people are deterred by the idea of reciprical force, but many are.
I wondered what part of New Delhi you had visited, where everyone was well armed, then realized you were speaking of America's Indig population. The Plains Indians engaged in almost perpetual warfare, but often would count coup rather than killing their opponents. It was a honor tactic that put the Indians at a disadvantage when they met US cavalry.
Much like the Palistinians, the American Indigs were not as well armed as the immigrants that came to their lands, and lost them.
Makes me wonder when we will compensate our Indigs for your home, as the land was taken from them without compensation, hundreds of tears ago. Just think of the interest due.
There is a difference as between paramilitary and criminal forces being armed and beligerent and an armed citizenry defending it's self.
Of course there are other factors involved in folk being polite, other than fear of retaliation. But it helps.

How all this relates to France being unable to cope with their new Intafada, I am not quite sure.

11/06/2005 08:17:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

11/06/2005 08:18:00 PM  
Blogger Jeff Medcalf said...

I commented on my blog Caerdroia, so I will avoid excessive commentary here. I would like to note, though, that any path the French take other than a strong crackdown on the rioters, followed by ending the "millet" practices that have been growing in France, is likely to lead to a bad outcome in the long term, and in many cases in the short term.

It's not an insurrection yet, but it's heading that way. And only Sarkozy seems to have any clue of how to stop it. And no one's listening to him.

11/06/2005 08:42:00 PM  
Blogger Boghie said...

Sarcasm Alert:

I think I am rather ecstatic that we don't have France as an active ally.

She is even more conflicted than the Libs in America.

Can anyone make a decision in France?

Are they scared of Libs screeching in the years to come that perfect decisions were not made from imperfect and partial information?

France will dither as it burns…

The Libs will screech about that as well…

Oh well…

11/06/2005 08:42:00 PM  
Blogger Nathan said...

MAD only works when all the parties involved can be expected to be rational. Muslims have proven time and again that they are not. Therefore, MAD does not work in this context.

11/06/2005 08:47:00 PM  
Blogger amortiser said...

basspastor,
It depends on what you mean by close. The interim government set the bar incredibly high for the passing of the constitutional referendum. The referendum was passed by 15 of the 18 provinces and the overall vote in favour was about 78%.

If 3 provinces defeated the proposal by more than 75% of the vote then the referendum would have failed. Two provinces were lost by that margin(both Sunni) and the third (again Sunni) was lost by 55% - still 20% short of the 75% required.

To say it was narrowly passed is nonsense. By any measure the referendum was adopted overwhelmingly but the MSM will still happily trumpet that it was a close run thing.

11/06/2005 09:52:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

nathan
War is not a rational thing, really.
The Mohammedans are winning the Global War, their areas if operation are expanding, incrementally. They ARE quite rational, you just can't see it, in part to your faith in our Arms.

You, like many Americans, cannot foresee US really being defeated by these Jihadists. This makes their efforts "irrational". They see it differently, they have a "roadmap" to success and they are on the trail to Victory, their god assures it.

11/07/2005 05:31:00 AM  
Blogger geoffgo said...

nathan,

I don't think we were discussing MAD herein. Gun-owning citizens defending themselves assures individual destruction of the rioters; thereby reducing the numbers of those considering rioting considerably.

11/07/2005 06:05:00 AM  
Blogger moderationist said...

IMO the fact that there are no fatalities, and the uniformity of the attacks speaks volumes.

11/07/2005 06:39:00 AM  
Blogger Nathan said...

They ARE quite rational, you just can't see it.

Look, the only reason Islam can continue to exist is that its birthrate far outstrips its death rate despite regularly sending its children to blow themselves up in cafes and nightclubs. Is that the measure of rationality? That Islam continues to spread? I like to think that there is a higher rationality than self-procreation and the destruction of one's enemies. Maybe you don't think so.

... in part to your faith in our Arms.

Where the hell did that come from?

You, like many Americans, cannot foresee US really being defeated by these Jihadists.

Are you calling me stupid? Why do you think I am here reading and contributing to this board? If you haven't been reading a word I've said, I'm here precisely because I view Islamists as a direct threat to the future of the West.

Furthermore, you've entirely missed the point of my argument about MAD. "Faith in our arms" is exactly what we can not count on to win this war. Nuclear bombs will not deter Islam. Huge armies with awesome ships, tanks, airplanes, robots, and guns, will not deter Islam. The determination and willpower of our soldiers will not deter Islam. What will deter Islam? The superiority of our ideas. And that is why I am here. That is why you are here. That is why all Belmonters are here.

No apology is necessary.

11/07/2005 08:39:00 AM  
Blogger NY GOPer said...

Cedarford,

Two things, first my take on gun ownership is in the narrower sense, with an individual owning a gun they can stop a rioter from burning ones car. I was not insinuating that one individual is going to stop a jihad.

Secondly, I did recently read on another blog site that on Sept. 11 in upstate New York that a large Muslim compound was surrounded by local citizens. The message was don't try anything or we will stop you. It was not the FBI, or state police but the citizenry who knew the compund was there and knew that they are the first line of defense.

11/07/2005 08:05:00 PM  

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