Wednesday, October 19, 2005

Judgment of Nuremberg

Although the Late Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist made these remarks on the occasion of the dedication of the Robert H. Jackson Center, it raised some of the questions now being asked about the legitimacy of trying Saddam Hussein. Jackson was appointed Associate Justice of the Supreme Court in 1941. On May 2, 1945 Truman appointed Jackson as Chief Prosecutor to the Nuremberg Trials. Strange as it may seem to today's readers, some doubted that the Nazi leaders could be legally tried at all. Rehnquist said:

But despite the praise for Justice Jackson's contributions to the success of the Nuremberg Trials, there was a great deal of criticism of the trials themselves. The criticism focused on two issues. The first was whether a Justice of the Supreme Court should participate as a prosecutor in such a trial.

The second issue was whether or not this sort of trial -- not only the prosecutors, but also the judges -- coming from the victors, would be in fact if not in form a "kangaroo court." But this criticism softened as the Court amassed evidence of the evil intentions and deeds of many of the defendants, and also because three of the defendants were acquitted. Legal scholars also questioned whether the whole idea of such a trial where there was no existing body of law did not violate the principle embodied in the ex post facto prohibition in the United States Constitution. That provision requires that before criminal liability may attach to a person for a particular act, a law making the conduct criminal must have been on the books before he committed the act.

Some of Jackson's own colleagues joined in the criticism. Justice William O. Douglas (between Jackson and whom no love was lost) opined in memoirs published many years later:

[Jackson] was gone a whole year, and in his absence we sat as an eight-man Court. I thought at the time he accepted the job that it was a gross violation of separation of powers to put a Justice in charge of an executive function. I thought, and I think Stone and Black agreed, that if Bob did that, he should resign. Moreover, some of us -- particularly Stone, Black, Murphy and I -- thought that the Nuremberg Trials were unconstitutional by American standards."

Whatever the merit of these objections, the Nuremberg Trials were surely superior to the summary court martial proceedings favored by some members of the administration and the summary executions initially favored by the British.

Chief Justice Stone wrote privately in November 1945 that it would not disturb him greatly if the power of the Allied victors was "openly and frankly used to punish the German leaders for being a bad lot, but it disturbs me some to have it dressed up in the habiliments of the common law and the Constitutional safeguards to those charged with crime."

The ex post facto objection was very much alive with respect to the charges laid against the Nazis. The Robert Jackson Center website lays out the essential arguments.

Four Supreme Court justices plus then-U.S. Sen. Robert Taft, R-Ohio, son of President and Chief Justice William Howard Taft, noted that the trials violated the ex post facto principle. He said Harlan Fiske Stone, then chief justice of the United States, called them "a high-grade lynching party." ... 

A debate underlying the ex post facto question involves what law applies: May courts in general, or war-crimes tribunals in particular, rely only on "positive law" — law that has been enacted in the particular place where the alleged acts occurred? Or may courts also rely to whatever extent on other, possibly overarching principles, such as "natural law"?

Others, such as Noam Chomsky, have argued that any Allied attempt to prosecute the Nazis was itself unjust because it was presided over by worse war criminals than Hitler. 

But getting closer to the sort of core of the Nuremberg-Tokyo tribunals, in Truman's case at the Tokyo tribunal, there was one authentic, independent Asian justice, an Indian, who was also the one person in the court who had any background in international law [Radhabinod Pal], and he dissented from the whole judgment, dissented from the whole thing. He wrote a very interesting and important dissent, seven hundred pages -- you can find it in the Harvard Law Library, that's where I found it, maybe somewhere else, and it's interesting reading. He goes through the trial record and shows, I think pretty convincingly, it was pretty farcical. He ends up by saying something like this: if there is any crime in the Pacific theater that compares with the crimes of the Nazis, for which they're being hanged at Nuremberg, it was the dropping of the two atom bombs. And he says nothing of that sort can be attributed to the present accused. Well, that's a plausible argument, I think, if you look at the background. Truman proceeded to organize a major counter-insurgency campaign in Greece which killed off about one hundred and sixty thousand people, sixty thousand refugees, another sixty thousand or so people tortured, political system dismantled, right-wing regime. American corporations came in and took it over. I think that's a crime under Nuremberg.

(Speculation alert) I wrote earlier that any trial of Saddam Hussein would automatically bring in recent history as a co-defendant. I guess that the "internationalists" feel they are the only ones with the moral authority to judge the former President of Iraq. To the question 'what law applies', their answer will be the 'international law' they have been at pains to construct. Any law but those of who at all events have disqualified themselves from the power of judgment by removing Saddam Hussein by force. Yet the "internationalists" cannot hold themselves entirely blameless. Implicit in Saddam's trial is another question: 'how did such a monster carry on for so long in the face of an international system that pretends to civilization'? And would Saddam, even now, be gassing Kurds and throwing living human beings into woodchippers if any but those whose moral qualifications are now doubted not acted against him?

55 Comments:

Blogger enscout said...

W:
You've done it again.

The line between the two is clear and history will judge these proceedings as ligitmate as those that took place 60 years ago provided justice is served.

10/19/2005 01:53:00 PM  
Blogger ex-democrat said...

(re-posting here from last thread)
Aristedes - are your concerns limited to the ex post facto problem? in other words, would you be OK with a purely Iraqi court (Iraqi personnel, located in Iraq) trying Sadamm for his crimes against humanity under customary international law (aka jus cogens)?
If so, do we know why that is not being done?

10/19/2005 01:57:00 PM  
Blogger Paul said...

If I am interpreting correctly, there are three choices:

a) Let Saddam go in the spirit of ex post facto

b) Try him for murder in violation of the spirit of ex post facto

c) summarily execute him

Choosing option 'a' implies that ex post facto trumps mass murder and more importantly gives future dictators/murderers an easy 'out.'

10/19/2005 02:00:00 PM  
Blogger John Aristides said...

The problem of using courts is that you must bring in notions of the law. The international arena is no place for law.

The ex post facto critique that I exhaustively registered in the last thread need not be recreated here, accept to say that I disagree with the Justice's criticism of Nuremburg. Nuremburg was a bad idea for other reasons than ex post facto.

Nuremburg, if it was anything, was a child of the West's lack of imagination. To them trial = justice. The framers set up another type of logical proposition: If trial, then justice. Any student of logic knows that this does not then mean if justice, then trial.

The idea of a fair trial invokes so many different principles and premises that it was always going to be inadequate to address a situation like what to do with the Nazis. It was not law that we invoked to defeat them, and it should not have been a court of law where they were judged.

Nevertheless, Nuremburg was within the capabilities of the victors, so it is hard to find philosophical contradictions to its implementation. Parties that go to war are at the mercy of fate as to what happens to them afterwards. Whether at a trial, or a summary execution, victors can do whatever they want to dispense justice after hostilities end (constrained as they are by sensibilities or by their own Constitution). Who's going to stop them?

Ex post facto also invokes an entire architecture of legal premises and principles. It is built to protect the citizen, to allow him to foresee and plan around legal liability. Since there is no such protection in the international community, since the international arena is in fact a state of nature, lobbing ex post facto criticisms at the Nuremburg trial presumes ex post facto to be a universal principle.

Ex post facto, though, is not a universal principle or a natural law. It is built out of a positivist theory of the law to protect a citizen from his own lawmakers. The reason Saddam's trial is vulnerable to ex post facto criticism is that he is a citizen being tried by his own state in reference to laws that didn't exist when he violated them. It is not the universal applicability of ex post facto that creates the vulnerability. Rather, it is the panoply of premises that obtained once Iraq became a Constitutional government that allows for such an American-based critique. As I said before, if Iraq were an American state, the trial would be deemed unconstitutional.

Iraqis should bring Saddam to justice. This does not, however, necessitate a trial.

10/19/2005 03:17:00 PM  
Blogger John Aristides said...

Yes, justice can be purchased with bullets, too. Bringing in notions of the law to the international arena ended up bringing in lawyers and legalese to critique and manage a decidely non-legal environment. Now we fight over the legitimacy of foreign wars and the meaning of resolution 1441 as if they were laws passed by the 102nd Congress.

Ex-dem,

American law would disallow a trial of an American citizen if he were charged with violating foreign laws on American soil, so the Saddam trial would still be vulnerable on that point if one were analyzing the situation from an American perspective.

To be clear, I take the position that a law must be ennacted to be law. There are no unwritten natural laws, though there are quite a few universally useful rules for societies to live by. Therefore, there is no such thing as international law (yet), and international norms are only as good as the force behind them.

10/19/2005 04:59:00 PM  
Blogger RWE said...

1. It is interesting to note that BOTH Saddam and certain "internationalists" are taking the tack that the trial is illegitimate, albeit for somewhat allegedly different reasons.
2. Prior to launching the mission that killed Adm Yamamoto in 1943, military lawyers were consulted to determine if such an assassination was a legitimate act of war. Given the precedent established there (even the Japanese thought it was a legitimate act) it would appear that there is no question that our military forces can simply kill enemy leaders when we encounter them.
Let those who advocate the hyper-legal "internationalist" approach put that in their peace pipe and smoke it.
If Saddam doesn't want a trial, let a half dozen P-38's have a go at him.

10/19/2005 05:08:00 PM  
Blogger ledger said...

MM: I think ex post facto is irrelevant here. It implies that there exists some Iraqi law against people taking control of Iraq and ruling--ravaging, in fact--it the way Saddam did. Lawyers love to argue this sort of thing, because it automatically deals them into the game and by that fact gives them the say-so as to what the options are...

The idea of "trying" him to find out if he was guilty for what are crimes perpetrated in full light of day on public streets in front of all people with eyes to see and ears to hear with seems to me a mere politeness in order to lend some semblance of respectability to a new Iraq regime that has no need of such
.

I agree that the ex post facto argument probably doesn't apply in this case. For intense purposes there was not law except Saddam himself. I'll get to the tribunal part in a second.

Aristides: ...The problem of using courts is that you must bring in notions of the law. The international arena is no place for law... The ex post facto critique that I exhaustively registered in the last thread need not be recreated here
Ex post facto also invokes an entire architecture of legal premises and principles. It is built to protect the citizen, to allow him to foresee and plan around legal liability. Since there is no such protection in the international community, since the international arena is in fact a state of nature, lobbing ex post facto criticisms at the Nuremburg trial presumes ex post facto to be a universal principle... It is not the universal applicability of ex post facto that creates the vulnerability. Rather, it is the panoply of premises that obtained once Iraq became a Constitutional government that allows for such an American-based critique...
Iraqis should bring Saddam to justice. This does not, however, necessitate a trial
.

Aristides, I am no lawyer (my brother is) but your argument is clear.

Now, the age old notion of prescient pokes its head up. Further, the old notion of a tribunal before exacting justice also surfaces (more so in death penalty case).

The problem is that we started setting a prescient by taking Saddam into "custody" and affording him a lawyer (and other mistakes). But, what should we have done the moment we captured him? Shot him on the spot? Some might argue yes. But, that is water under the bridge. We started setting a string of legal prescient which was probably not a wise move (maybe an expedient move).

Now, I fear this whole "fair trial" will degrade into a media circus. You must surely know that all high profile cases are always tried in the press.

Next, to the tribunal problem.

Generally, most civilization have some sort of tribunal before administering the ultimate punishment - death. Some will argue that in time of great danger, a commander can shoot a person to save his unit, or captain of a ship can make life and death decisions to save his crew. All of that is true. But, since we captured Saddam and indicated he would be given some sort of a tribunal we set a prescient. To repeat, we are stuck with it.

Now, as some of legal people on this board know, for every legal prescient there is a legal exception. The trick is to find the exception and explain the alternative.

Aristides you have made a very good case that he should not be given a "trial." But, what exactly do you recommend we do? We have already foolishly said we would give him of some sort of tribunal (and we probably made some foolish agreements with the Iraqis and/or the international community). I also think giving him a US style of legal trial is totally unwarranted. But, in reality I suspect that some sort of Nuremberg process will have to be used - however flawed it is.

If any of you have a better suggestion of what to do with Saddam, speak-up.

10/19/2005 05:10:00 PM  
Blogger ex-democrat said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

10/19/2005 05:20:00 PM  
Blogger ex-democrat said...

Ari - i very much doubt that a US court would "disallow" the trial of an American citizen if he, like Saddam, were charged with mass torture and mass murder. Rather, he would be tried according to the federal or state law prevailing at that time. The prosecution would not invoke customary international law (or international treaty law, come to that) not because it couldn't but because it would have no need to.
Given your observations that at the time Saddam committed his crimes he had conveniently absolved himself from liability under Iraqi law, this would seem to be a different situation. The point of having customary law forbidding crimes against humanity, however, is that nobody anywhere can derogate from them - even the butcher of baghdad.

10/19/2005 05:24:00 PM  
Blogger didymus2000 said...

I would let the Iraqi government do what it wants with them. Any pretend international law, whether of the Nuremberg kind or the morerecent stuff is a joke. When you have your enemy in your clutches you either kill him or (after the war) turn him loose. This "crime against humanity" crap and the show trials make me gag. You twist yourself in knots pulling your pud over jurisdictional issues. It really is a purely Iraqi matter. What do they want to do? Let 'em.

And just so you know where I stand, I think "just following orders" is a damn good defense for a private, corporal, sergeant, or lieutenant. If you win the war, feel free to shoot the higher-ups out of hand. Just don't p*ss around with play party show trials. That kind of political cr*p is best left to liberals and Commies.

As you might guess, I didn't make Law Review at Harvard. I prefer a more visceral, lawyerrein strategy.

10/19/2005 06:02:00 PM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

any claims to "international" law made in Saddam's case dances too close to the kind of leftist posturing...

It seems to me that over and above the dangers of "leftist international law", if you start messing around with the concept of introducing ANY other kind of law except what the Iraqi's currently have on the books, then there is a very real possibility that the majority of Muslims in Iraq could demand that Saddam be tried under Shariah Law.

I'm not familiar with Shariah Law details except it does seem to let an awful lot of very bad people go free because it's Ramadan, or they paid blood money, or the judges were successfully bribed, or whatever victims are still alive decide to free the bad guy because then they'll get into paradise more easily.

I'm surprised Iran and Saudi Arabia haven't already made noises about the appropriateness of the Iraqi's using anything BUT Sharia Law, since they're trying to introduce it as the new mandatory "in thing" all over the world.

10/19/2005 06:26:00 PM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

Just don't p*ss around with play party show trials. That kind of political cr*p is best left to liberals and Commies.


Don't you think it'll be fascinating if Saddam gets up there in front of Allah and everyone and testifies that he personally gave bribe money to his excellently good friend Jacques Chirac? And how well do you think Saddam knew Kofi Annan, and what will Mr. Hussein have to say about that on the stand?

I wonder if he might even testify that he used the United Nations' and its bureacracy with plotting afore-thought because he knew that was the best way to get what he needed to maintain his life-style.

I think that over and above details of mass graves and who got fed to the paper-shredders, testimony about how Saddam manipulated the world OUTSIDE of Iraq will make it worth the price of admission.

10/19/2005 06:30:00 PM  
Blogger sam said...

A defiant Saddam pleads innocent, scuffles with guards in stormy hearing:

While Milosevic is being tried at a U.N. war crimes tribunal in The Hague, Netherlands, Saddam is facing a tribunal of his own people. The Iraqi tribunal is partly funded by the United States and organized by a government dominated by Iraqi ethnic groups he once oppressed.

The trial comes nearly two years after Saddam's capture on Dec. 13, 2003, when U.S. troops that had overrun Baghdad the previous April finally found the fugitive leader, hiding in a cellar in a rural area outside his hometown of Tikrit north of Baghdad.

http://mdn.mainichi-msn.co.jp/international/news/20051020p2g00m0in001000c.html

10/19/2005 07:16:00 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

Cedarfart: the Nazis, in years to follow, would point out they perhaps had less blood on their hands than the Jews who started Bolshevikism, did.


Forget Bolshevism, that's small potatoes. Think of the blood libel we can attribute them Jooos on account of starting that miserable junta calling itself Christianity. And let's not forget them Jooos are also responsible for the birth of all them murderous Ishmaelis!

10/19/2005 07:48:00 PM  
Blogger didymus2000 said...

At this point in world history, any trials under international law strengthen the hand of the internationalists. Whether they are of the neocon (actually neoliberal) type with their new world order, or of the more traditional lefty UN NGO types, the result is the same: reduced sovereignty.

As many folks noted in 1945 and 1946, civilian trials arejust as effective. Quisling and Petain were tried, convicted and killed by their own people under their own national laws. Dönitz offered to do the same to at least some of the surviving Nazis. Several of the Nuremberg defendants confessed believed that a postwar Reich Court would have treated them worse than the Allied Tribunal.

Given this, Saddam and his henchmen can be easily tried and convicted under Iraqi law of murder, conspiracy and a host of other capital crimes.

This will serve as a dramatic warning to the next Iraqi dictator-- the new Saddam who will take over when we bug out and abandon Iraq.

It will also remind the Iraqis that they can deal with the next genocidal nut all on their own.

10/19/2005 08:41:00 PM  
Blogger ledger said...

Well, We have one idea of what to do with Saddam.

HadleyB said... I would let the Iraqi government do what it wants with them... It really is a purely Iraqi matter. What do they want to do? Let 'em.

It sounds good on the surface. But, is not that now what we are doing for the most part? I am sure the Iraqi judge would like to string Saddam up. So, what is he waiting for.

If this is the route to go, I would suggest that at the next out burst or contempt of court, the judge merely confine Saddam to his cell and continue with the prosecutor charges and then render a verdict (Guilty and the punishment of death). Then, haul Saddam out and hang him.

I how does this sound to the rest of you people?

[please excuse all of the typos, less than perfect legal parlance and grammatical errors, but, I am doing two things at once].

10/19/2005 08:43:00 PM  
Blogger sam said...

Saddam Hussein before the law:

Rapid punishment -- most likely execution -- threatens to bury the full record of decades of tyranny under the apparently overriding purpose of fighting the insurgency by other means.

Saddam's trial will thus demonstrate the limits of the law in jumpstarting regime transition. An intractable dilemma of transitional justice is that societies ravaged by brutal human rights legacies often appeal to the law to shore up the legitimacy of the successor regime, only to see these salutary aims subverted by the challenges and compromises that are inherent to the transition itself.

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editorials/archives/2005/10/20/2003276595

10/19/2005 09:39:00 PM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

Agree with Ledger that if Saddam acts up again, he should immediately be taken down, handcuffed, and physically hustled from the room. He should *NOT* be allowed, ever ever again, to act like he's above the police/soldiers in the courtroom, and too good for them to lay a hand on.

I'm glad someone else picked up on that. I was wondering if Saddam acts that way when he's being escorted somewhere by American soldiers.

10/19/2005 10:10:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Agree w/Ray.
---
Especially in light of Kofi A's objections, it was good to see President Hussein put that uppity judge in his place.
Now, taking a page from Justice Steven's Playbook, we should bring Saddam here to preside over the prosecution of Bush, Cheney, et al.
---
Forget the Joo:
Get that damned Cat!

10/19/2005 10:44:00 PM  
Blogger sam said...

Saddam trial a spectacle that unites, rivets Iraqis:

Yasser Kadhim, 28, a Shiite Arab shopkeeper in Baghdad, quietly celebrated after the session ended. "Never could I have remotely imagined seeing such a thing as Saddam on trial for [his] ... many crimes."

Kadhim expects Saddam to be hanged and hopes it will happen soon. "First, it will give the Iraqis some rest," and, he suggested, it will deflate and defeat the Baathist loyalists behind the insurgency.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002571907_saddam20.html

10/20/2005 12:26:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Shiite housewife Sabiha Hassan's entire family leaped up and rushed to their private generator when the screen went dead half an hour into the trial. "Thank God, I brought extra fuel today just for the occasion," said her husband, Salman Zaboun Shanan, as he filled the generator's tank.

Hassan's brother was executed by Saddam's regime, and she, her husband and five of their sons spent time in Saddam's prisons. They kept up a running commentary on the trial. "May God break his legs to pieces," Hassan, in a black robe and veil, said when Saddam stood at one point.

"Iraq's soil has its pride. It won't accept Saddam's body once they execute him. I hope they throw his body to the dogs, not bury it," said Shanan, slapping his fist into his palm nervously.

---
In northern Iraq, Kurds also were captivated by the trial, which focused on a massacre Saddam is accused of ordering against a Shiite village. Many Kurds were eager for cases of atrocities against their community come to trial, particularly the Anfal campaign of the late when Saddam's military razed Kurdish villages and killed some 180,000 people.

Zainab Wali's husband and two sons were among the "Anfal-ed," the slang term used for the many who disappeared and whose bodies were never found.

In the northern city of Kirkuk, the 46-year-old woman brought out her cooking utensils to the living room so she could watch alongside her daughter while chopping up ingredients for stuffed cabbage.

When Saddam appeared on the screen, she whooped with joy and started laughing.

"Today I feel that my husband and brothers have come back. I feel like my own brother is judging Saddam since the judge is Kurdish," Wali said.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/10/19/D8DBA9084.html

10/20/2005 12:45:00 AM  
Blogger goesh said...

Let them revel in their application of Justice. Let them judge him by the standards they have established and let the West quit the intellectualizing BS. We don't have a clue about how the average Iraqi feels in their hearts. We can't relate in any way to the brutality they have endured.

10/20/2005 04:21:00 AM  
Blogger Karridine said...

Please remember that, until the moment The Hairy Scoundrel was pulled from his hidey-spider hole, the Internationalists were on record as staunchly AGAINST international/US interventions; FOR Iraqis dealing with Iraqi affairs, and loudly against America even THINKING of trying him in a court of law.

Then, after an utterly shameless and near-instantaneous about-face, they all started publicly insisting that Saddam be turned over to INTERNATIONAL (what are those?) bodies, as the Iraqis were utterly incapable of a fair trial and unprepared to administer such to the Grizzled Goblin!

10/20/2005 06:34:00 AM  
Blogger Karridine said...

Uhh, C4?

The Chinese don't give two hoots about THEIR constitution, either!

All it does in practice is rationalize the power of the ruling clique!

10/20/2005 06:38:00 AM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

papa bear: I like your list. However, the thought does occur that if the US were to codify these assertions, what's to keep some other country from doing the same regarding whatever they're interested in legally? I'm thinking specifically right now of the Spanish judge who's issued arrest warrants for three American soldiers, and that *he* could claim some sort of "universal crime" has been committed by the soldiers so therefore he has a right to arrest them.

"Universal" in this case is skating way too close to "international" and "UN" for my comfort. It might be better to reverse the claim to some sort of "special circumstances", where the actions are being crafted very closely to fit what's happened, with a promise that they won't slop over into real life afterwards.

10/20/2005 06:54:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

c4: and the Nazis, in years to follow, would point out they perhaps had less blood on their hands than the Jews who started Bolshevikism, did.

.and when the Stalinists took over from the Jews

Hey c4, funny, do you stay up nights dreaming of Jooos world conquest or what?

I swear your protocols must have have the extra super secret chapters...

really c4, take your prozac or your lithium, dont dress up in your army dress that you bought at the surplus store... stop reading history of the world by abbas... it will be ok c4, really, try an old adage, if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing...

10/20/2005 07:28:00 AM  
Blogger enscout said...

peter;

"The difficulty lies in drawing the line. I would say a man like Speer deserved to be before the execution squad. When he says he "didn't know" (which in itself is highly doubtful), the reply should be "Well you should have." It is every man's responsibility to have at least that amount of awareness to see where he and the society he lives is heading, and to work fiercely against any trends that may upset civilized society, _if he cares about his life_. Otherwise you may one day, like Speer, find yourself surrounded by state-worshipping racists with a master plan. Too late then."

I coudn't agree more.

We have trouble holding some accountable. This is off topic and I apologize to readers in advance for crawling up on the soap box.

But I wan't you to imagine yourself in a sterile operating room whitnessing a late term abortion of a healthy unborn. And I want you to tell me whether, after observing, you think it is
OK.

To your point; we are Speer.

10/20/2005 07:44:00 AM  
Blogger Kevin said...

I am very happy to see Saddam facing a trial, but:

Will the statesman and corporations who directly supplied Saddam with weaponry and technology to carry out his genocidal acts be tried in either Iraq or in their home countries?

Will the foreign military officers who trained Saddam’s army on the tactical use of chemical weapons in the final years of the Iraq / Iraq War be prosecuted?

Will the intelligence officials who helped Saddam in 1963 become head of intelligence of the new Baathist regime in Iraq and who handed him a list of 10,000 mostly Shiite members of the Iraqi Communist Party with instructions to kill them and their families be tried in any court?

10/20/2005 07:48:00 AM  
Blogger John Aristides said...

I'm late in revisiting this post, but let me try to cover what I can.

C4: Ex Post Facto? BFD! It applies only to English Common Law, Napoleonic, Soviet, and Chinese allow extensions of existing laws to crimes not yet named (convenient for Stalin, of course!). Nuremburg was as much about adept post-war diplomacy as law.

I have been clear that my argument was from legal principle as understood in American jurisprudence. As to Nuremburg, it had its uses, and it had its consequences.

Ex-dem: The prosecution would not invoke customary international law (or international treaty law, come to that) not because it couldn't but because it would have no need to.

That's true as far as it goes, but I was specifically referring to a case where international norms were at odds with American law. Torture and the dealth penalty are good examples.

Verc: But say Saddam did violate laws of his regime. He still cannot be charged by the current government anymore than the US can prosecute British laws; two different governments. This holds unless the laws are grandfathered in.

This is true, and highlights the limitations of the ex post facto objection. In the end you must do something with the dictator.

My original goal was to determine the justificaton for Saddam's trial and compare it to the philosophical justification of trials in general, as understood in American jurisprudence. After reading both Arabic and Western commentary on the trial, the moral and utilitarian nature of the enterprise became clear. Equally clear was the general lack of curiosity, from both friend and foe of the trial, about legal principles and how they apply to this particular case.

The UN was against the trial because of its result, whether their complaint was the death penalty or an unkind spotlight. Saddam's lawyers argue a semblance of legal principle, but what they argue is sovereign immunity, which is more of an assertion than a principle. The Iraqis are all over the place, with some disappointed and some enthusiastic. Americans, who are now quite used to show trials, bill it as "the trial of the century" or some such, and they talk about it as if trying Saddam were much needed therapy for the Iraqis, or as if the trial was a time capsule, documenting Saddam's crimes for posterity.

There are many good reasons to have this trial, and moral and utilitarian justifications almost surely outweigh the ex post facto objection. Life is made of particulars and exceptions to solid rules. That ex post facto laws are harmful in general does not mean that every manifestation will offer equal harm.

So that is where we are. I'm unsure if it is best, but I am sure it is just. While I remain uncomfortable with the legal shenanigans surrounding the trial--ex post facto, drastically limited discovery, American interference, etc.--I am more than happy to watch the moral and utilitarian miracle of Saddam the Defendant as it unfolds before our eyes.

Rome wasn't built in a day (so they claim), and Iraqi jurisprudence hopefully has many days ahead. But we should be mindful of how they dispense justice to the citizen and be ever ready with a quick word when it is needed. American jurisprudence is a jewel, and a prism. We should not wear it lightly.

10/20/2005 07:51:00 AM  
Blogger Jack said...

"Thus Sadaam cannot be charged or tried, because the International Community does not acknowledge the concept of "universal crimes" (except for the crime of being a productive Christian white male, or some such)."

The thing is, the UN does acknowledge the concept of universal crimes. Another main aspect of the legacy of the Nuremberg tribunal was the notion of "crimes against humanity", This charge was invented to encompass the most dreadful Nazi crimes, crimes which the traditional law of war could by no means be stretched to cover. In particular, the prosecutors had been urged by refugee groups to prosecute crimes committed under German law against specific ethnic and religious groups. As a result, in their original form the charge pertained to acts committed during wartime against any civilian population, or persecutions on political, racial, or religious grounds. People chosen for whom they are, rather than what they have done.

The ultimate intention of crimes against humanity was to include horrors that were sanctioned by German law at the time. Crimes became prosecutable whether or not they were violations of the domestic law of the country where committed. This erosion of national judicial sovereignty has since remained useful for courts intending to indict national leaders, such as Milosevic and Pinochet (and Kissinger?).

The question is of course whether you think this was a good precedent to set, or the Nazis should have been just shot out of hand. On one hand, it made potential perpetrators more politically vulnerable, on the other hand it eroded national sovereignty and set a precedent that is now abused by nuts like the ones who tried to bring Rumsfield up for charges in Belgium.

So the question here is not whether they [meaning the UN] think we can do it. They just want to control it, because otherwise we ruin their little game of grabbing more and more power. Considering the current crop of world elite, I think we should generally discourage the current zeitgeist of internationalism whenever possible. On a tactical note, trying him under crimes against humanity would guarentee that the conflict becomes a Shi'ite/Kurdish vs. Sunni conflict, since only the former was distinctly targeted for racial/religious qualifications. We're trying to set the opposite precedent, that he treated all of them poorly [even if in different degrees].

Sorry for the long post.

10/20/2005 10:03:00 AM  
Blogger enscout said...

The ex post facto arguement doesn't hold water. You could never convince anyone that Saddam didnt have a law to prevemt the murder of an innocent - let alone thousands.

If you argue that he was acting to protect his citizenry, again I say bunk. The evidence of the wonton death of thousands of undeniably innocent beings stands on its own.

10/20/2005 10:40:00 AM  
Blogger TullimoreDu said...

Without the benefit of such a trial, these people surely would have been executed without trial. So regardless of the 'legal' pedigree of the trial, the moral justification is adequate, in that it required that evidence be collected and that it be revealed to the people, who whether through democratic process or through revolution, pass ultimate judegment on these acts.

10/20/2005 12:50:00 PM  
Blogger El Jefe Maximo said...

Not sure I'd agree with Rehnquist that "the Nuremberg Trials were surely superior to the summary court martial proceedings favored by some members of the administration and the summary executions initially favored by the British."

I think Nuremberg proved the truism that bad facts make bad law. The whole business has operated to undermine national sovereignty and empower the international chattering classes. The spectacle of Spanish courts indicting US soldiers takes place in part because of the post-1914 weakening of national sovereignty accelerated by events like Nuremberg.

All in all, I prefer Churchill's idea of just shooting the most obnoxious Nazis out of hand.

The day is coming when no American official, or former official, will be safe traveling abroad. Persons opposed to American power cannot fight the US directly, so they'll use the lawyers. The deserved trial and execution of Saddam will no doubt, in time, lead to the completely specious trial of Bush.

10/20/2005 12:54:00 PM  
Blogger exhelodrvr1 said...

Verc,
There is some validity in what Cedarford posted on the beginnings of the Nazis. One of the main selling points of the National Socialist movement in the early days was it's opposition to Communism. That carried a lot of weight with the German people, since they could see practically first-hand what was going on in Russia. And the Prussian nobility was very close to the Russian nobility, who were being murdered or, if lucky, fleeing the country. (Remember that Kaiser Wilhelm II was a first cousin of Tsar Nicholas.)

10/20/2005 12:55:00 PM  
Blogger exhelodrvr1 said...

I agree that Cedarford tends to cross over into anti-Semitism. But falsely claiming inaccuracies in what someone says is not an effective way to censure someone. There was a lot more involved with the rise of National Socialism than just hatred of the Jews. While that was certainly a big factor, it was just one of several significant issues.

10/20/2005 01:55:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

C4,
"The debate over Roe v. Wade is largely over with the public. 67% of the American people think the decision should stand,"
---
Link?
(simple request)

10/20/2005 06:27:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

metaphysician said...
"This is why we are doing what we are doing."
Exactly,
Whatever Nuremberg's shortcomings, the schoolboy lesson that made sense to me was that
"Just Following Orders"
was sometimes a highly insufficient defense.

But to let the Internationalists get their noses beneath the tent would be a disaster.
Let self-described "Mr. Iraq"
be tried by Iraq.

10/20/2005 06:36:00 PM  
Blogger sam said...

Twists in Saddam trial: First witness is cancer patient, defense lawyer snatched:

Interior Minister Bayan Jabr claimed a major break in the fight against the Sunni-led insurgency with Wednesday's arrest of one of Saddam's nephews during a pro-Saddam demonstration in Tikrit.

The capture of Yasir Sabhawi Ibrahim, a son of Saddam's half brother Sabhawi Ibrahim Hasan al-Tikriti, could help track down other Saddam relatives living in nearby Arab countries who are the source of financing for Iraq's insurgency, Jabr said.

Iraqi security officials said Ibrahim was in Syria before the government there forced him to return. They spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to deal with the media.

http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2005/10/21/news/nation/16_57_2210_20_05.txt

10/20/2005 07:17:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

trangbang68,
We should both remind ourselves more often of the waste of time it is trying to identify with, or get straight information from some individuals for whom the put-down, even of the sacred, is their highest goal.
Forewarned is forearmed.
Best to leave some stones unturned, and hope for the best.

10/20/2005 08:15:00 PM  
Blogger Jake said...

All legal mumbo jumbo aside, this trial (like Nuremberg) is no more than a day of reckoning. This trial is a public accounting for crimes against humanity.

10/20/2005 08:26:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Sorry for off topic post, will try to ignore in future.
(Charginghawk Pledged)
---
Los Angeles Times Poll:
This was taken on 2005-JAN-14 to 18.
1,118 randomly selected American adults were asked the question:
"Which comes closest to your view on abortion: abortion should always be legal, or should be legal most of the time, or should be made illegal except in cases of rape, incest and to save the mother's life, or abortion should be made illegal without any exceptions?"

Results:

41% favored making abortion illegal with a few exceptions.

24% favored making abortion always legal

19% favored making abortion legal most of the time.

12% favored making abortion totally illegal.

Margin of error ±3% percentage points. It is notable that 12% of American adults would totally prohibit all abortions, including those needed to save the life of the mother.

10/20/2005 08:58:00 PM  
Blogger ledger said...

Keying off of what NahnCee said and the situation at hand:

...if Saddam acts up again, he should immediately be taken down, handcuffed, and physically hustled from the room. He should *NOT* be allowed, ever ever again, to act like he's above the police/soldiers in the courtroom...


I agree. Saddam was escorted in to a court room and then displayed gross contempt for the judge and the court (and the laws behind the court). If there is going to be a "trial" then the judge must firmly assert his authority over the proceedings (which he did not in this first part of trial). Without order in the court room the trial will soon degenerate into a shouting match. Saddam contempt and outbursts make a mockery of the court's authority (a horrible way to run a courtroom). The judge must have the intestinal fortitude to severely sanction Saddam for contempt of court. To that end, the judge must be willing to remove Saddam from the court room after the next outburst and must be prepared to continue with the trial with Saddam in his cell (and, the judge must have the backbone to continue the entire trial to the finish and sentence Saddam without Saddam even being in the court room).

On a rational basis, granting Saddam more time to prepare for trial is a mistake. The judge must know that Saddam's thugs will use that time to kill or intimidate any/or all witness for the prosecution. Further, Saddam's thugs will surely continue to bomb civilians, American troops, and others at very turn. The judge should not allow anymore "continuances" or stall tactics from Saddam's lawyers. In fact, the judge should have not allowed a 45 day continuance in the first place.

Yet, we now have it. I would suggest that Iraqi police put the heat to Saddam thugs and determine if there is witness intimidation or evidence tampering. If so, then the judge should restart the trial immediately. In short, the judge should show complete authority and continue with the trial - or scrap the trial and just execute him.

10/20/2005 09:14:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

ledger,
Have not been following closely, but your description makes me realize they're following the "liberal" American Model!

(Perp's Rights Uber Alles)

10/20/2005 09:26:00 PM  
Blogger ledger said...

Duly noted Doug.

10/20/2005 09:42:00 PM  
Blogger Cybrludite said...

If any of you have a better suggestion of what to do with Saddam, speak-up.

"I'm sorry, but Mr. Hussain is dead. I'm filling out the paperwork now. I can't decide if he hung himself in his cell or was shot while trying to escape."

10/20/2005 10:05:00 PM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

I'm remembering some trial where the defendents were tied and gagged and bound to their seats in the courtroom. Was that the Chicago 6?

I don't think Saddam should be removed from the court if he misbehaves. I think he should be right there where he can hear and watch the whole thing, stapled to his chair with a Hannibal Lecter mask on his face.

10/20/2005 10:23:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Nahncee:
That would be future CA Sen Tom Fonda Hayden, Bobby Seale, et al
.

. trials/Chicago7/chicago7.html

10/20/2005 10:38:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

1960
Abbie Hoffman said he was "psychologically born" in this year.
October, 1967
Hoffman arrested while attempting to measure the Pentagon.
August 28, 1968
Hoffman is arrested while having breakfast for having the word "Fuck" on his forehead.
1974
Hoffman has plastic surgery and goes underground in upstate New York for seven years to avoid trial on cocaine charges. He serves a sentence in a work-release program in 1981-82.
1983
Judge Julius Hoffman dies at age 87.
April 12, 1989
Abbie Hoffman commits suicide at age 52.
November 28, 1994
Jerry Rubin dies after being hit by a car while jaywalking.
1995
William Kunstler dies of a heart attack.
August, 1996
Tom Hayden, state senator, is a California delegate to the Democratic National Convention in Chicago. Rennie Davis, activist and personal growth lecturer, is also in town.
August 27, 1998
David Dellinger, aged 83, is arrested while demonstrating at a nuclear reactor.
.chronology .

10/20/2005 11:02:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

The Chicago 7
Trial (on LSD)
Paul Krassner
Instead, I decided to take a tab of acid before I took the witness stand --- call me a sentimental fool --- but it wasn't merely to enhance the experience.
I had a more functional reason.
My purpose was twofold. I knew that if I ingested 300 micrograms of LSD after eating a big meal, I was very likely to throw up in court.
That would be my theatrical statement on the injustice of the trial. Also, I wouldn't need to memorize so much information that way.

Judge Julius Hoffman looked exactly like Elmer Fudd. I expected him to proclaim, "Let's get them pesky wadicals!" The court clerk looked exactly like Goofy. It didn't matter that a Disney character was making a guest appearance in a Looney Toons cartoon --- one learns to accept such discrepancies in a dreamlike state. Now I was being instructed by Goofy to raise my right hand and place my left hand on a Bible that was positively vibrating. "Do you hereby swear," asked Goofy, "that the testimony you are about to give in the cause now on trial before this court and jury shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?" The truth for me was that LSD --- or any other catalyst for getting in closer touch with your subconscious; whether it be meditation, Zen, yoga --- served as a reminder that choices are being made every moment.
So naturally I assumed that Goofy was offering me a choice.
"No," I replied.

Although I hadn't planned to say that, I realized it was a first in American jurisprudence. Ordinarily, the more heinous a crime the more eagerly will a defendant take the oath. However, my refusal to swear on the Bible was a leap of faith. Everything was swirling around in pastel colors, but there was still a core of reality I was able to grasp...
. Krassner

10/20/2005 11:33:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Abbie Gets a Haircut

10/20/2005 11:51:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

BTW,
Most of these guys got off on appeal, which probably had a lot to do with the present state of the left/democrats, as did other such derelections of the Federal Judiciary through the decades.
---
"However, this isolation changed somewhat in the past 50 years, as members of the "New Left" filtered through the Democratic party's leadership, the schools, and the intelligentsia. More pink than red, they eventually proclaimed themselves anti-anti-communists during the 1960s, and their views and agendas reflected it. They deeply distrusted American patriotism, the military, supported the advance of the nanny-state, peeling back American power and self-righteousness, and promoted multiculturalism, which in practice meant the subservence of American culture to that of its immigrants and unassimilated minorities. The American New Left made common cause with similar minded and also rebellious movements in Europe, movements which cultiminated in the almost continent-wide social disorders of 1968. These people continued to rise through the aforementioned institutions, and their views did evolve, but most did not break free from many of their original prejudices and beliefs."
. Cutler: "Is Classical Liberalism Doomed?"

10/21/2005 12:28:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

"Since then, our sensibility in the matter of decapitation has changed greatly. During the war the Japanese beheaded many of their prisoners, not as a tribute to their nobility, but as an expression of complete contempt for them.
This provoked our revulsion.
Beheading of any kind henceforth seemed to us barbaric and primitive.
One might have moral qualms about the hygienically sound, quasi-medical, almost euphemistic executions by injection that take place in chambers bearing a too-close resemblance to operating rooms, but no one would propose beheading as an alternative.

Except, of course, in the Islamic world.
There has been no change of sensibility there, at least in two important Islamic states and among Islamist terrorists.
Saudi Arabia still favors public beheading as a means of execution, and Iran has used it in special cases.
But of course it is the terrorists who use it to the greatest effect. The video of the beheading of Daniel Pearl, the writer for the Wall Street Journal who was killed in Pakistan, is among the items regularly seized by British police during raids on households suspected of harboring Islamist terrorists. The video is used as recruitment propaganda.

You don’t have to be a follower of Jung to discern something deeply symbolic in these beheadings by self-appointed executioners. To sever the head from the body, at least nowadays when we have a more refined sensibility, is not merely to kill: It is symbolically to annihilate not only the biological existence of the beheaded, but the very thoughts he has had during his lifetime. To throw away a head as if it were a worthless inanimate object is to deny in the most categorical way possible any ideas that it might have had while living. It is to imply that only correct thoughts can henceforth be allowed to exist in heads, the kind of thoughts that the executioners themselves have; not until there is unanimity in thoughts, they imply, will our heads rest easy on our shoulders.

One hardly needs to emphasize the terrifying demonstration effect of the decapitation of supposed infidels by people to whom plenty of bullets are available as an alternative, swifter, and more certain method of procuring death. We conclude, as we are intended to conclude, that these are fierce and ruthless people whose belief in their own desert-tribal righteousness is unshakable. We should never forget that to commit barbarity in the name of righteousness is one of the greatest joys known to man — or at least to many men — and not just to Islamists, though at the moment it is they alone who have the courage of their barbarity, and rejoice publicly in it.
---
Of course, adept scholastics can find almost anything in any text. For example, enthusiasts find abortion and euthanasia writ large in the American Constitution. The urge to decapitate no doubt precedes the attempted justification for it in Islamic texts, which merely turns a pleasure into a sacred duty.

The mixture of scholasticism and a thoroughly modern sense of grievance or resentment is a highly combustible one, especially where the texts in question can be interpreted bloodthirstily, even if they need not be. Cruelty is never worse than when higher authority is invoked not merely to justify, but to demand it.

. The Meaning of Beheading .
Dr. Dalrymple is a contributing editor of City Journal, and the author most recently of Our Culture, What’s Left of It: The Mandarins and the Masses.

10/21/2005 01:28:00 AM  
Blogger bardseyeview said...

Saddam is eerily like Shakespeare's King John, in ordering torture for no reason and generally warping himself away from normalcy over time.

10/21/2005 07:29:00 AM  
Blogger LGS said...

Thoughtful and needful.

Saddam came to power by murder (an Iraqi crime) then corrupted the state, and his "other crimes" are the continuing fruits. Hilter though coming to power legitimately then proceeded to violate German law (by murder) and corrupt the state to gain absolute power. Their original, unlawful murders subsequently make their manipulation of the state also unlawful.

The Japanese trials are more problematic on several levels, including ex-post facto, and applying international treaty norms they had not accepted. However, since they had not accepted the norms, we merely applied the standards they themselves used in conquering others. They shouldn't and didn't expect anything less.

10/21/2005 07:33:00 AM  
Blogger Pascal said...

Why stop here W? '[A]n international system that pretends to civilization' has chosen to leave unmolested a whole host of despots even more deadly, percentage-wise, to the populations they rule. Mugabe is a boil on their collective face. Mbeke seems to be taking notes. NPG in service to the "civilized" world could not be more obvious. Their theme: "Let the inferior races exterminate themselves and do the rest of us a favor."

10/21/2005 11:45:00 PM  

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