Sunday, October 09, 2005

Green Highways

Gates of Vienna has an extremely interesting article on the Jamaat ul-Fuqra, a controversial Islamic organization with compounds called Jamaats "scattered throughout the United States and Canada, notably in Colorado, New York, Tennessee, Georgia, and Virginia". What happens in these compounds? Newspaper articles have connected Jamaat ul-Fuqra to the Beltway Sniper, the killers of Daniel Pearl and shoebomber Richard Reid. And it seems that despite various raids since 9/11, the compounds are still out there. So what does Gates of Vienna do? Mosey on down to Red House, Virginia to get a look at one the Jamaats close up. 

After waiting in line at the counter, I asked the proprietor if he had heard of Jamaat ul-Fuqra, an Islamist organization. He looked at me blankly. I mentioned that they had a compound near Red House, on Route 615. ... He seemed reluctant to give further information on the subject, perhaps not wanting to gossip to a stranger about his (presumably well-armed) neighbors and customers. However, outside the store I struck up an acquaintance with a local woman named Shirley .. she proved to have a wealth of local lore on the subject. ...

Shirley said that there are other Jamaat locations besides the compound. One of her hobbies is historical research, and recently she was tracking down old homesteads in the wilds of Charlotte County. Her maps led her down a back-country lane, a non-state route through the wilderness that required a four-wheel drive to negotiate. When she neared the old homesteads she was looking for, she was surprised to find an establishment with a sign that identified it as a "Training Camp for Young Muslim-American Men."

Some men came out to ask local historian Shirley what she was doing. After listening to the rest of Shirley's story, Baron Bodissey drove up the road to take a look at the Red House compound for himself.

Along the way I passed the Red House Volunteer Fire Department, the Mt. Zion Baptist Church, the Beautiful Zion Baptist Church, and numerous modest little houses, double-wides, and trailers, with pickup trucks and boats out front and dog kennels in the back, the normal human landscape of rural Southside Virginia. As I came around a bend I saw the compound ahead. There was a big green sign near the road in Arabic and English, with a little cinderblock guardhouse next to it flying an unidentifiable flag. Beyond the entrance numerous trailers were scattered across the hillside, fairly close together in fields of waist-high unkempt weeds. No one was in sight.

I noticed the road sign at the entrance: “Sheikh Gilani Lane,” just as described in the South Asia Terrorism Portal article.

Read the rest at Gates of Vienna.


Blogger NahnCee said...

his (presumably well-armed) neighbors and customers

One wonders how well-armed the American neighbors are ...

10/09/2005 10:10:00 PM  
Blogger sam said...

Jamaat ul-Fuqra

Islamic sect that seeks to purify Islam through violence. Led by Pakistani cleric Shaykh Mubarik
Ali Gilani, who established the organization in the early 1980s. Gilani now resides in Pakistan,
but most cells are located in North America and the Caribbean. Members have purchased isolated
rural compounds in North America to live communally, practice their faith, and insulate
themselves from Western culture.

Fuqra members have attacked a variety of targets that they view as enemies of Islam, including
Muslims they regard as heretics and Hindus. Attacks during the 1980s included assassinations
and firebombings across the United States. Fuqra members in the United States have been
convicted of crimes, including murder and fraud.


Location/Area of Operation
North America, Pakistan.

External Aid

10/09/2005 11:21:00 PM  
Blogger demosophist said...

That's Red House, West Virginia rather than Virginia.

10/10/2005 12:31:00 AM  
Blogger demosophist said...

Oh heck, my mistake. There's a Red House, WV. My GPS map doesn't show a Red House, VA but looking at the map on the Gates of Vienna it's clearly in Virginia. It's about 145 miles from where I live, in fact. Just south of Appomattox. How ironic!

10/10/2005 12:56:00 AM  
Blogger erp said...

One hopes the FBI have these enclaves under surveillance.

10/10/2005 04:15:00 AM  
Blogger Kevin said...

This is just another example of Clinton/Gore hens coming home to roost. The problem of heavily armed religious fanatics holed up in rural compounds is not new. Clinton had a few of these situations to deal with, most memorably at Waco. And what did he do when confronted by armed prophets of doom? Why he appeased them of course, and tried to look the other way. Even after he finally got the balls (mostly supplied by Janet Reno) to attack the freaks, as is typical of limp wristed Leftists, he hesitated and finally it took him more than 50 days to get tough with those terrorists. Astonishingly, in the end, he actually let several of them walk out alive, even after these blasphemers had shot at Federal Police patriots several times. What kind of message did that send? The damage was done, religious fanatics the world over saw that they could implant themselves in rural America with impunity.

A man of the Right, like George Walker Bush, would have given those terrorists until sundown to surrender and then would have let them negotiate with a few 2000 lb. bunker busters. Hopefully that’s what he’ll do with this upcoming Waco II that Baron described,

10/10/2005 05:21:00 AM  
Blogger nigelhuffy said...

It does seem appropriate to remind ourselves of such compelling enemy "assymmetry" after leaning of our most recent and possibly powerful adaptations vis-a-vis the grandchallenge. In as much as we could, in a few years time, have robotic tanks maneuvering around borders, reducing the transnational nature of some of these groups (AQ), they may have sought more survivability, even some more advantage (domestic audience, english broadcasts) for their "media-combined arms campaign"(wretchard). England seemed to avoid much bad publicity or negative public sentiment rather in their 7/7 reaction; i wouldnt be surprised if the left is ripe to be used by militants for guaranteeing a high strategic cost to responding to domestic (and constitionally sound?) aggregations of muslims. this could be something emergent from our having lots of land and thus an opportunity for like-minded folks to forge out and create their own little place in the woods; or it could be something worse...

10/10/2005 05:33:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

I emailed "gates" story to investigative project (steve emerson), jihad watch (robert spencer) and Little green footballs, hope that my efforts were not needed...

one question, are these islamic occupiers/colonists and will c4 be angry about them?

10/10/2005 07:10:00 AM  
Blogger Dan said...

Interesting. I remember my wacky driving instructor - this large, dessicated bohemian woman in her early 50s, probably - taking me out into the boondocks of Northeast Ohio and observing, as we passed one church and then another long lonely dirt road stretching to the horizon, that these were covens for witches; the church was used by a group who'd bought it several years prior rumored to be involved in some sort of Satanism. Then a friend of mine mentioned that a bunch of people from one of them had been arrested by the FBI years ago when his uncle found a person crucified on the lake opposite his property out there - all very Children of the Corn.

Now, I understand the implications of the First Amendment, but it seems we really ought to be able to balance the interests of the citizens, in light of the Constitution, to come up with some doctrine that allows us to roll these people up and disperse them into their natural squalid little lives within the mainstream posthaste. A group that presents a potential strategic threat viz. the now known global network of Islamist infiltrators really ought to be given as little quarter as possible.

Perhaps the government of VA should come up with some "pressing state interest," build a reservoir where the compound is, and eminent domain them right out of their enclaves. Of course it all could be relatively harmless - such people tend to be as incompetent as their chosen fantasies indicate - but such places must be in communication, they must live in expectation of some kind of eschatological victory to be achieved in real life, and shari'a, unlevened with Enlightenment and other developments, is nothing the government ought to be in the business of protecting except out of indifference. Recent developments in Canada, for example, are troubling.

And don't even bother objecting that certain aspects of Evangelism have similar intentions or expectations - those people share the intellectual milieu of self-help pop psychology, and are utterly incapable of the kind of mischief, undoubtedly supported by Arab oil money, that these guys are.

Again, has anyone ever seen Lawrence of Arabia?

10/10/2005 07:18:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

you obviously must disagree with kevin. kevin seems to think that the Waco wackos, a christian sect of some sort, were terrorists. Perhaps of "International Reach".
How he would view the Morman bigamists, in AZ and Utah, would be interesting to know.

As for myself, I think that small self contained communities are okay. If law breaking occurs, arrest those responsible and off to jail with them. But to take State action against innocent people out of ignorance, anxiety and fear.

Well, that is down right evil

10/10/2005 07:33:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

There are other Compounds across the American landscape and history that do seem to foster terrorist and criminal activities.
Here is a tidbit from 1997

Elohim, Terror, and Truth
by William F. Jasper

Imagine a rustic, rural redoubt populated by well-armed white separatists who regularly play host to some of the most virulent racist leaders of the Aryan Nations, Ku Klux Klan, and White Aryan Resistance. Imagine further that this secluded commune serves as a Butch Cassidy "Hole in the Wall" hideout for a notorious gang of Aryan bandits wanted by federal authorities for a two-year spree of bank robberies spanning six states -- robberies in which explosive devices were frequently used as diversionary instruments. These gangsters dub themselves the Aryan Republican Army (ARA), spout Marxist revolutionary gibberish, and make videotapes of themselves denouncing the U.S. and boasting of the group's "nuclear, chemical, and biological warfare program." Then picture Timothy McVeigh, the main suspect in the April 19, 1995 bombing of the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, calling this encampment two weeks before the deadly explosion and asking for a German ex-soldier who serves as the enclave's director of security and allegedly has expertise in explosives. Visualize also a traffic ticket issued to McVeigh a short distance from this gathering spot for racist/national socialist misfits.

Taxing your powers of mental fantasy still more, see in your mind's eye a convicted murderer who is venerated as a martyr of the Aryan cause by the inhabitants of this enclave, who is scheduled to be executed on April 19, 1995, and who -- to stretch credulity to the limit -- was involved in a plot to attack the same Murrah Building in Oklahoma City 12 years earlier. Then envision at least one federal undercover informant for the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) who warns her federal superiors in November 1994 -- months before the bombing -- that the German security director has declared, "It's time to go to war," and, "It's time to start bombing federal buildings." Moreover, she tells them that the German has joined with a notorious Aryan/KKK leader from Tulsa to case the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City as a potential target. As a final element, envisage that immediately after the deadly Oklahoma City bombing of April 19, 1995, she tells federal FBI and ATF investigators that she had seen bombing suspect McVeigh and the suspect known only as John Doe No. 2 at the backwoods compound.

Dream Bust

What does such a conjuration add up to? A dream bust for the FBI, ATF, and every other federal law enforcement agency, naturally. It also adds up to a real-life place known as Elohim City and real-life individuals matching the descriptions "imagined" above. But there is something very wrong with this picture, aside from the very wrong-headed notions of the odd assortment of unsavory characters who drift in and out of this strange community. For some unknown reason, this bonanza for law enforcement has been seemingly immune from investigation by federal authorities. Perhaps the failure to apprehend the much-sought-after bank bandits at Elohim City can be attributed to incompetence, poor intelligence, and even worse communication. And the Elohim City residents who allegedly stated their intent to bomb federal buildings and then surveilled the Alfred P. Murrah Building with that object in mind? Perhaps the failure to bust them on conspiracy charges before the bombing can also be attributed to more incompetence and bureaucratic foul-ups.

But what excuse can be made for not apprehending -- at the very least for questioning -- after the bombing those conspirators fingered by the informant? Keeping in mind the earnest promises of President Clinton and Attorney General Janet Reno that no stone would be left unturned, and the fact that over 2,000 federal agents were unleashed on this investigation, it boggles the imagination to consider that individuals who automatically should have been considered prime suspects were ignored completely. Hundreds of FBI agents swarmed over Kingman, Arizona in search of McVeigh's buddy, Michael Fortier. Dozens more swooped down on bombing suspect Terry Nichols' 12-year-old son, Josh, in Las Vegas. An army of federales descended on James Nichols' farm in upstate Michigan. Hundreds more were dispatched throughout the land to track down and interview anyone who might have known McVeigh, Nichols, and Fortier. Investigators were sent overseas to the Philippines to check on Nichols' past activities there. Over 20,000 individuals were interviewed.

However, no investigators were sent to Elohim City. No attempt was made to interview the individuals accused by the ATF's undercover informant. No search warrant was issued to search for explosives or John Doe No. 2, or to see if fingerprints or other evidence linking McVeigh or Fortier to the settlement could be found. Even now, after the latest Elohim City-connected outlaw action, federal authorities continue to turn a blind eye to the obvious. On February 15th, two men opened fire on law enforcement officers during a routine traffic stop in Ohio. The spectacular shootout at point-blank range (during which none of the participants was hit) was caught on the highway patrolman's video camera and shown on news programs to millions of viewers nationwide. The gunmen, who escaped, were identified as Chevie and Cheyne Kehoe, brothers who had spent time at Elohim City. Robert Millar, the bearded patriarch of this so-called "Christian Identity" compound, confirms that the brothers had lived at Elohim City, along with four Pennsylvania men indicted earlier this year in the ARA bank robberies. Yet, there is still no sign that federal officials are looking into the glaring Elohim/Oklahoma City connection. In a February 23rd article, Associated Press writer Paul Query quoted an unnamed "law enforcement official in Washington" as saying that "Elohim City is not a current subject of interest." ..."
The New American

Then from 2002 there is this update

",,, McCurtain Daily Gazette 2002

Following years of denials from officials of the U.S. Department of Justice, documents obtained by this newspaper make clear the FBI possessed evidence linking the bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma City and a cell of terrorists involved with the radical Aryan Nation sect.

Those documents confirm the terrorist cell was receiving assistance and training from a Christian Identity religious cult, known as Elohim City - a paramilitary organization located near Muldrow.

An FBI timeline of events before the bombing raises serious questions: If the group known as the Aryan Republican Army supported bomber Timothy McVeigh in the April 19, 1995 attack, and Elohim City was the launching-pad for the massacre, why has the FBI not acted on this remarkable information?

The McCurtain Daily Gazette obtained the documents as part of a 396-page release of materials through the Freedom of Information Act. The government redacted some of that material. And 23-pages were completely withheld.

In an August 1996 memorandum marked: "Director of the FBI to the Philadelphia FBI," federal agents examined a dangerous gang of neo-Nazi terrorists and their links to McVeigh and the Oklahoma City bombing. Included in the intelligence analysis are statements the memo attributes to a violent Aryan Nation leader, asking members of his revolutionary cell, "Are you ready for the courthouse massacre?"

The deadly boast is made only weeks before the Oklahoma City federal building was destroyed by a bomb - and a short drive from where 168 men, women and children were murdered.

Also captured on the videotape, another terrorist discusses plans to start a revolution by firing rockets and machine guns during an Olympic event in Atlanta.

Later, prosecutors charged Eric Robert Rudolf - a former resident of Murphy, N.C.- alleging he was responsible for the July 27, 1996 Centennial Olympic Park bombing in Atlanta, the double bombing of an abortion clinic located in the Sandy Springs Professional Building in north Atlanta on Jan. 16, 1997, and the double bombing at The Otherside Lounge - a gay bar in Atlanta - on February 21, 1997.

Federal investigators believe Rudolph maintained contacts inside the Christian Identity movement and even met with the leadership of the Aryan Nation Church of Jesus Christ Christian at Hayden Lake, Idaho. A $1 million reward is offered for Rudolf's arrest.

Neo-Nazi Conspiracy Detailed

The FBI during a raid in Columbus, Ohio uncovered much of the key physical evidence referred to in the memo.

On Jan. 18, 1996, a FBI SWAT team, subdued self-styled revolutionary Peter Kevin Langan after a shootout left the Aryan Nation disciple slightly wounded.

Two days earlier, Langan's partner, Richard Lee Guthrie Jr., was arrested following a brief car chase in Cincinnati.

A search of the Columbus rental the gang was using as a hideout, turned up a large supply of Aryan Nation literature, false identifications, live grenades, pipe bombs and a storehouse of bomb-making paraphernalia.

One of the crucial pieces of evidence recovered: a two-hour-long videotape that gang members made in southeast Kansas only weeks before the Oklahoma City bombing.

Throughout the video, gang leaders Langan and Guthrie appear with faces covered and present a plan for racial revolution based on a book called The Turner Diaries.

At several points in the homemade production, Langan and Guthrie exhibit large amounts of cash they say was stolen from banks.

Throughout the tape, the pair urge followers to unite and kill leading government figures and all non-white, non-Christians.

In spite of Langan's comment to this reporter, that, "There's no crime in making a bad movie," statements on the videotape likely helped send him to prison for life. ..."
McCurtain Daily Gazette

So, I think it is pertinent that as we chase down the suspected Mohammedan training camps and persecute their members, that the US should shut down all the Christian Camps as well.
They have already proven to be quite detrimental to US peace and security.

10/10/2005 07:58:00 AM  
Blogger erp said...

This is the downside of unregulated gun ownership. I fervently believe in the 2nd amendment for normal, sane Americans, but not Muslim terrorists, so how do we reconcile these important differences.

If we allow survivalists like the people at Ruby Ridge to have arsenals of weapons, how can we deny them to the Islamists?

The authorities have to come up with another reason for getting them in jail or out of the country, preferably both.

10/10/2005 08:05:00 AM  
Blogger dasydz said...

I'm guessing kevin is a lefty troll posing as a 'right-wing' idiot. Sometimes it's not so obvious-- this one is.

10/10/2005 08:32:00 AM  
Blogger Red River said...

There are a number of compounds like this in Texas as well - not just Muslim, but Christian as well. Heavily guarded and well financed.

I know several large ( Christian ) fundamentalist families in my area and the kids and parents are wonderful people and I frequently ask the older men and women for advice. But they don't cut themselves off from the outside world. On the contrary, they thrive within it.


back to the compounds. Why would anyone feel the need to wall themselves off? If one is walled off, will this prove a breeding ground for abuse and virtual slavery for those inside? While walling off is not prima facie evidence of immoralaity, it IS hard evidence of wanting to either hide or withdraw from the world, which are halmarks of future, more desperate behavior.

10/10/2005 08:44:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

red river
In Colorado City, AZ there is a Mormon sect of bigamists. While they do not live in walled comounds, they have erected cultural walls of seperation between themselves and the rest of Society.

Society is trying to break down those walls.
New Times

10/10/2005 09:08:00 AM  
Blogger pete speer said...

The fear is not their location or their training but their ability to attract, recruit and train the dysfunctional and unemployable ex-prisoners from the penitentiary. These persons have had a great amount of Muslim recruitment efforts and religious training while in prison.

10/10/2005 09:55:00 AM  
Blogger Vercingetorix said...

Whoa, slow the crazy train down, I'm jumping off. The key point isn't religious fanatics with guns building boxes. It's here: "Newspaper articles have connected Jamaat ul-Fuqra to the Beltway Sniper, the killers of Daniel Pearl and shoebomber Richard Reid."

For whatever danger Mormon or Raelian crazies might present, they do not have two things; sympathy (indeed kinship) with America's terrorist enemies, including some of the worst in the world, or affiliation with them, even alliance.

This connection is missing from Waco (1993) and Ruby Ridge (1992) that happened well before the Murrah Building was hit (1995). This is a danger that isn't just about the religion, or a particular religion; this isn't a Nation of Islam compound.

So keep it straight, we are talking about closed communities of what may very well be enemies in the US, that are dangerous because they are outposts of a larger warfront. When the Mormon Republic of Salt Lake sends 7th Day Adventists with VBIEDs into the heathen, yeah, that's roughly equivalent, but until then I'm happy to wait another two centuries before a popular cult front opens in Utah. But not one minute more in Virginia with the Aztec cult of jihad.

10/10/2005 10:12:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

You are right, it is not the religion of the Mormons or the Mohameddans that is guilty of criminal behaviour, it is Individuals within the group, not the whole of the greater group.
I assume then that you discount the reports that Terry Nichols recieved instruction in bomb making while visiting the Philipines with his Filipino wife. McVeigh's lawyer believed it, or so I saw him say on a Discovery Channel show.
I firmly believe there is a connection between the neo nazis, the Jihadists and Central American gangsters like MS-13.

To focus narrowly on just one, the Mohammedan, aspect of the threat is to lose sight of the forest for the trees.

10/10/2005 10:32:00 AM  
Blogger Vercingetorix said...

Actually, rat, you got me completely backwards. The Ruby Ridge and Waco 'incidents' are of an entire different quality from these Islamist compounds because they were an unknown (as OK City took another two years to occur, unless Nostradamus is on the FBI payroll, whatever threat those places possessed was inchoate at best). On the other hand, Islamicists have repeatedly demonstrated a proficiency and habit at attacks around the world.

Domestic terrorism is quite a concern, from MS-13 and on, but at some point you have to draw the line. This isn't about religion just as it isn't about guns just as it isn't about crime or war. Its about all of those things and excludes none of them; the intersection of interests.

And so my criticism stands on lumping in domestic cults with jihadi outposts. Some cults are terrorist (Aum Shinryku in Japan), true, but everything is scarce, so let's not pursue margin calls when we can dig into the true blue threat's chest.

10/10/2005 10:55:00 AM  
Blogger Kevin said...


The Order, Aryan Nations, and the Church of Jesus Christ Christian have been waging an explicit war against the United States, “Ruling Class Jews”, Blacks and “White Race Traitors” for more than twenty years. They have been killing, robbing, and terrorizing with near impunity. In 1995 they even targeted the crèche at the Federal Building at Oklahoma City.

From Wikipedia:

In 1996, Aryan Nations posted to its website an "Aryan Declaration of Independence," which declared, "the history of the present Zionist Occupied Government of the United States of America is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations... [all] having a direct object -the establishment of an absolute tyranny over these states." Holding "the eradication of the White race and its culture" as "one of its foremost purposes," this "ZOG" is accused of relinquishing the "powers of government to private corporations, White traitors and ruling class Jewish families."

Most, if not all of these groups cheered when the planes stuck the Twin Towers. Isn't it time to raid a few of their compounds?

10/10/2005 11:49:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

so you are saying, verc, that it is not the home grown aspects of potential terrorists nor the cross border infiltration by criminal elements nor the isolationist compounds that create concern. That none of these in and of themselves should be enough to perk our anti terror interests.
Your standard of threat is limited to Mohammedans, wishing to spread Religious Fascism by terror.

Never mind the cross border and cultural ties the Mohammedans have in Europe, Asia and South America with nonMohammedan Criminals, Terrorists and Insurgents.

The Beltway Sniper fellas were not Suiciders. I would think that home grown terrorists would not be, but what do I know.
The "Profilers" all said the beltway boys were middle aged white men, just like on FOX, until they caught the guilty Mohammedan parties.
I have not read of where Melvo and Mohammed were part of a Global Reach Conspiracy.

Ruby Ridge was a case where an impoverished nuclear family was living in a plywood shack in the woods. An ATF SWAT team attacked the family, shooting a young teenage boy while walking his dog and a mother, death by sniper, while holding a baby in her arms.
The Government has paid $$ MILLIONS $$ to the Weaver family for the ATF's overstepping the Rule of Law.
The cash has not brought the boy, or mother, back.

10/10/2005 12:28:00 PM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

Most, if not all of these groups cheered when the planes stuck the Twin Towers. Isn't it time to raid a few of their compounds?

Unfortunately, there is a Constitutional right to cheer even about planes crashing into WTC. It's called "freedom of speech".

However, that's not to say these groups can't legally have their tax returns audited to make sure they're getting all the financial benefits of being a religious organization, if that is what they are claiming to be.

And from what the Baron said, there seems like an awful lot of traffic driving to and from the compound, and I'm sure there'd be no problem pulling the drivers over to check on their vehicle registration and insurance, as well as driver's licenses. It's not like they would be being busted for "driving while black", after all.

The State's Department of Education will undoubtedly want to follow-up on that home-schooling thing to make sure all the requirements are being met, too, so the children of the compound can grow up to be the most successful little Americans it's possible for them to be.

All of these are requirements that law-abiding citizens of the United States of America meet daily and gladly to maintain our citizenship. As such, the inhabitants of any compound or commune should be equally willing to meet them, and will not be able to ululate anything about "racism" or "discrimination".

10/10/2005 12:34:00 PM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

I was thinking that this is not the first time I've heard "Virginia" and "Muslim" side by side in the same sentence. If you Google it, there seems to be quite a hot-bed of CAIR/Muslim activity in Virginia.

Additionally, I'm remembering that ex-ambassador Bandar's private home was in Virginia. Now that he's resigned as US Ambassador from Saudi Arabia, I don't know where he's living. I haven't, however, heard of him returning to the Magic Kingdom. Military-type compounds don't seem quite his style, though.

Virginia Muslim Cleric Sentenced to Life for Inciting Terrorism

Posted: July 14, 2005

An American-born Muslim cleric has been sentenced to life in prison for providing his followers instructions on how to reach a terrorist training camp run by the Al Qaeda-linked Islamic extremist group Lashkar-e-Taiba in Pakistan.

Ali al-Timimi, 41, was sentenced by U.S. District Judge Leonie M. Brinkema on July 13 in a federal courtroom in Alexandria, Virginia.

In April, Al-Timimi, a Fairfax County resident, was found guilty on six counts of counseling and advising his followers to engage in terrorist activities. The jury found that he encouraged a number of young Muslims, some of them American converts, to seek terrorist training in Pakistan and to use firearms and explosives to fight against coalition forces in Afghanistan.

Al-Timimi’s conviction is the 10th in the so-called “Virginia Jihad” case in which 11 Muslim men were charged with participating in paramilitary training to prepare for “holy war” abroad.

Al-Timimi, who frequently lectured at Dar Al Arqam Mosque in Falls Church, preached an extremist Islamic doctrine known as Salafiyya, often incorporating anti-Israel, anti-Semitic or anti-Western rhetoric.

10/10/2005 02:32:00 PM  
Blogger Aristides said...

A question that will always remain is how much leeway to give the feds to protect the nation from attack. Deterring and stopping foreign invasion is one thing, but it is a different beast altogether when you are talking about homegrown groups. Police power has a long history of being abused for political purposes, as the FBI files during the 60's and Schumer's reckless use of tax returns show. It is easy to harrass the law-abiding under the banner of protection, even if no rights are overtly violated.

An episode that drew scant attention was the search of the Rolling Stones' stage in the middle of a concert, an ostensibly protective act that shut down production for about 30 minutes while the police dogs combed the stage for bombs. There is no way of knowing if the search was based on viable information or if it was political retribution for the latest asininity spewn from the mouth of Mick Jagger. And therein lies the problem.

You might say that it is a small thing to interrupt a concert in order to be sure of safety. In the grand scheme of things, you would be right. I imagine that such a truism is what is behind the lack of curiosity, though I could be wrong. Nevertheless, such small harrassments, if that is indeed what it was, tend to build up powerful disincentives for public figures to speak out, and that is a no-no.

I am not fronting a conspiracy theory here. I am merely bringing up an academic point: we should never trust the government with the power we have given it. It takes a vigilant citizenry to insure against the errosion of liberty. Ra-ra for the police won't cut it.

10/10/2005 02:45:00 PM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

aristedes - what if they're not citizens who are being mis-accommodated? Personally, I don't believe anyone with a green card or a visa or whatever has Constitutional protection much beyond "thou shalt not torture". If they want to be protected from American authorities observations and/or intrusions then they can leave America.

10/10/2005 04:50:00 PM  
Blogger Vercingetorix said...

I thought the internet was supposed to be instantaneous? I just lost my brilliant reply to rat...(sigh)

Anyways, I mentioned MS-13, not because it is a mulsim organization, but because it isn't. This whole thread is about domestic terrorism and which corner it comes from, I don't care. On the other hand, an aQ affiliate or ally is a real threat, a proven threat, and a capable one as well especially on American soil.

I'd put Jemaah Islamiyah up against the Ayran nation any day of the week and there's not a whole lot that needs to be said about that. So if you have one bullet or two, jihadi comes first, RICO-violating criminals second, misc. crazies when we can get around to it.

10/10/2005 05:29:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

sorry your brillance was lost, you still shine, though.

In my view MS-13 is a domestic terrorist group. One with International Reach.
Johnny "Taliban" Walker and Jose Pedilla do not come close in lethality or body count when compared to McVeigh and Nichols.
Nichols reportedly took lessons in bomb building while in the Philipines. He hooked up with Mohammedan terrorists there, supposedly.
He also hooked up with McVeigh and the second worse terror strike in US history followed.
McVeigh was neck deep into the American Aryan movement.
The anti semetism of both the American Nazis and the Mohammedans is a binding factor. The Muslim Brotherhood and Hitler were partners in the Balkans and Middle East during WWII.

One man's Crazy is another man's terrorist.

10/10/2005 05:49:00 PM  
Blogger Vercingetorix said...

The Muslim Brotherhood and Hitler were partners in the Balkans and Middle East during WWII.

And this is a problem. We've already seen the little alliances of convenience displayed by the Stalinists, leftists, and peace groups with the hard-right wing insurgency in Iraq, regardless of the dissonance to their governing philosophy. And of course, the Iranian Republican Guards (Shia Islamist) helped train the PLO (Sunni 'secular'); the ends justify the means and often the friends.

On our shores it is unlikely that aQ will have any effect unless it is through one of our native groups, and that includes the Aryan nation (paramilitary and at least competent), MS-13 (wide-networked and violent) or any number of preexisting violent gangs.

Think of the US as al Qaeda's Iraq. They can never beat us on our shores, just cause damage, however deep, and then flee just as we can't put down the insurgency by ourselves. But we're standing up the Iraqi army so Iraqis can put down Iraqi 'militants.'

So what is al Qaeda standing up?

10/10/2005 08:19:00 PM  
Blogger trangbang68 said...

On reading post one from Kevin,my first thought was this guy's an ATF agent trying to rewrite Waco in a revisionist fashion.Maybe he's a lefty stooge as one poster said or maybe he's a hysterical dope.
While the Branch Davidians were odd,trying to draw an analogy between them and the Jihadis is laughably ludicrous.They were a sect of deviant Seventh Day Adventists who posed no real threat to anyone.The botched raid was a government fiasco that left 80 American citizens incinerated by overzealous feds under the incompetent Janet Reno fueled by fever swamp rantings of the atheist group,the Cult Awareness Network.I asked an ATF agent in an airport"When did oddness become a capital crime?"
Desert Rat,while no doubt there are white supremist s who are sympathetic to jihadi aims;I think you overstate their numbers and influence.They pose far less of a threat than say disaffected black inmates in American prisons.
These cats in Virginia are another story.They need a visit from some heavily armed feds.Paul Sperry in his book"Infiltration" said there is a huge mosque in Falls Church Virginia whose iman met a number of 9/11 hijackers just prior to the event.
Claiming there is a domestic threat on the level of Wahhabism is just a cloak for politically correct cowardice that is strangling our will.

10/10/2005 09:26:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

Rat, you presume these people are harmless, even to one another, and that is ludicrous in the face of the facts. This is a all cult-like, intentional, and has about the atmosphere of coerced domination by a leader and his few minions, not the voluntary association of free peoples of like opinions. C'mon - your skepticism is misplaced. These places should be periodically investigated by social workers like the naitons lost children-communities whose natural propensity toward degeneracy ought to be presumed and guarded against in both the interests of the cult-followers and the State. These are strange, inscrutable groups to begin with; their association is insidious. People do not congregate in this manner for purposes consistent with anything like the natual law (i.e. philosophical basis) at the root of our political sentiments. Enough with this hippie presumption of goodness, or the ludicrous fear of always sliding into generalization once dangers posed by specific groups are pointed out - Enough. The Mormon bigamists are culty idiots who want more sex; don't expect me to take it seriously, especially when they live in these trailer parks in the middle of nowhere, keeping their women like chattel, acting all 1870s Zebediah Kurtzweiler Latter Day Patriarch - this does not amount to anything but a fantasy, and the state and culture and You have long recognized the plain danger posed by certain fantasies enacted in certain manners. That a general rule is difficult to articulate has nothing to do with whether an application of it may be accomplished. Read Plato's Meno. If that were the standard nothing would ever get done, anywhere, and probably women would rule the world.

Here's a question for you though: what do You think these people are doing out in Virginia, so far from the sands of Arabia, eh? And don't tell me you don't know so it would be impolite to hazard a guess. You in fact have an opinion, so what is it.

10/11/2005 06:22:00 AM  
Blogger Sophia Phoster said...

When you say that Islam is not the problem but that only bad actors are you are kidding yourself. Any so called religion defines the rules of behaviour for two relationships: (1) the relationship of man to God, god, gods or any other universal intelligence, and (2) the relationship of man to man.

Insofar as anyone who calls himself a Muslim who draws from Islam to define his personal relationship with God, peace be upon him. But be very clear that Muslims who draw from Islam to define the relationship of man to man draw from a pernicious ideology that quite easily rationalizes murder, slavery and theft when the "other" is not a right-thinking Muslim. When CAIR spokesmen say that Islam prohibits the murder of innocents they are probably correct, so far it goes. What they do not say is that "innocent" can NEVER include a person who is not a right-thinking Muslim. Islamic theology and jurisprudence is very much about the man-to-man relationship.

I don't know how you can distinghuish Muslims who fuel only their spirituality with Islam, or if it's even possible. Stop thinking of Islam as a religion and place it in context as a political ideology and it's as dark, dirty, and dangerous as any 'ism that has plagued civilization.

10/11/2005 07:15:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

As I said yesterday if people are committing crimes, arrest and incarcerate them. If they re guilty of conspiracy, child abuse, etc. investigate, indict and arrest. Pretty standard fare with US.
To fear them because they are different, odd, or of a different religion is nonsensical.
To take extra legal action, as US Government agents did in Ruby Ridge or Waco is counter productive to our System of Justice.

As far as I can tell aQ is a bunch of Border Bandits operating out of the mountains of central asia. They have recruited a few thousand combatants to disrupt civil society in Iraq. They have achieved no tactical success there.
They did, in 2001, deployed 20 men to the US. They were successful in hijacking three planes. Beyond that they have had NO success in the US, directly.

Was the OK City attack aQ related?
If the reports of Nichols's Philliino training are correct, then it may well have been.
Who can aQ stand up in US. Men converted to Mohammedanism in US prisons, mercenaries from Central America and direct action agents similar to the 9-11 assualt teams.

The US policy is in direct opposition to your feelings. President Bush has rejected your position, explicitly. Until the policy position of US changes, Mohammedans are accorded all the rights and privilages that other US citizens are afforded. This is true whether they are US citizens or merely visiting our country.
As long as we extend entry visas to Saudis, Jordanians and Pakistanis they are our honored guests, not enemy combatants.

10/11/2005 07:44:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Sorry, I missed your final question yesterday.
As to the activities taking place within the VA compound.
I'm hazarding a guess, as you suggest.
1) Religious Instruction. Most likely Wahabbi Sunni Mohammedanism.
2) Communal business activities.
This could include both the legal oil extract business, illegal money transfers, etc.
3) Youth martial training similar to Boy Scouts, Hitler Youth, etc.
4) Propaganda generation.
5) Adult paramilitary training.

Any illegal activities that can be proven against these folk should be pursued by Lawful Authorities by Legal Means.

Aerial surveillance, phone taps, building and health inspections, IRS audits all can be utilized, legally.

If there is no proof of malfeasance, they are presumed innocent, as are you and I.

10/11/2005 10:05:00 AM  
Blogger Sophia Phoster said...

A discussion of whether violent jihad is an aberration from or an integral part of Islam is not the same as depositing Muslims wholesale into concentration camps. It's unfortunate that so many people are afraid to engage in such a discussion. The history is there. Closing your eyes and humming kumbaya doesn't change that. It just prevents you from intellectually confronting an important issue.

10/11/2005 10:49:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

I find it difficult to form the mental picture of Mr Bush, Mr Cheney and Mr Rumsfeld all holding hands with Ms Rice and General Casey singing kumbaya while "Vactioning" at the ranch in Crawford, this past August.

Perhaps sophia, that is how you envision our leaders actions, I do not. You may think they are spreading lies and dealing in deceit, I do not.

I take Bush and crew at their word. I think they have analyzed the situation and come to the conculsion that a "Clash of Civilizations" is not in the best interests of US.

I support the Bush Strategy, such as it is. I think we could be more robust in dealing with the enemies of US, both Politically and Militarily, the President, obviously, disagrees.
He has the job, authority and responsibility.
I'll back his play.

10/11/2005 12:07:00 PM  
Blogger Sophia Phoster said...

The President in his October 6 speech said, "Some call this evil Islamic radicalism; others, militant Jihadism; still others, Islamo-fascism." It's unfortunate that it took 4 years to get to this point, more than 25 if you if mark the start of the Islamofascist War with the Iranian invasion of the US Embassy. I suppose everything in it's own time.

Everyone is, of course, free to make their own decision about how "radical" the acceptance of the practice of violent jihad really is. Once you acknowledge that the US Constitution and Sharia are mutually exclusive forms of governance the "radicalness" of jihad becomes all important in determining how careful we should be about blocking Islamic inroads into our insititutions.

10/11/2005 01:42:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

I don't know rat, that rap sheet for its members' leaders sounds suspiciously like the kind of armageddon occultists that ought not be allowed to fester - again, for our and their own welfare - under the blanket presumption of innocence or protected association. There are no absolute rights in the Constitution - not one.

10/11/2005 01:49:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

If by using all the means of investigation available to the local, state and federal agents there is no EVIDENCE of wrong doing, then they are free to behave as they wish.
If a powerful figure like Mr. Delay can be indicted for Consiracy, then these Mohammedans could be as well, if EVIDENCE, of ANY KIND, existed.
If there is not even enough EVIDENCE to indict, well than, all we have agianst them is our own fear and anxiety.
If, for some reason, Law Enforcement agencies choose to ignore their crimes and let the perps remain at large, well then the powers that be must have decided to let them remain in place, like Osama.

10/11/2005 02:20:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

I'd go back to the toppling of the Shah, as the start of the Conflict.
Others may say that the Suez Crisis was the start of the West's decline in the Region.
Others could make the case that this is but a continuation of the River Wars that Winston Churchill wrote of, in the Sudan. Others could reference back to Gordon Pasha.
Osama makes the case for this Conflict being a continuation of battles fought over a thousand years ago, in the Crusades.
Americans have a poor sense of History, which is not the same as saying that Osama is correct.

10/11/2005 02:32:00 PM  
Blogger CP said...

I've posted a topo and satellite photo of the Red House compound at my blog - here.

10/12/2005 08:12:00 AM  

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