Tuesday, September 13, 2005

Helplessly Hoping

We learn from Khaleej Times Online that philanthrophists purchased greenhouses that were left behind by withdrawing Israelis for use by impoverished Palestinians.

NEW YORK — American Jewish philanthropists contributed $14 million to buy former Gaza settlers’ greenhouses for Palestinians, a news report said yesterday. Without the funds, the Jewish settlers would have destroyed the greenhouses to keep them out of Arab hands as they were forced out of Gaza Strip, The New York Times said. The greenhouses provide jobs for 3,500 Palestinians and had been a lucrative market for fresh produces for Jewish settlers.

That was yesterday. It was good while it lasted. USA Today reports that the greenhouses have been ransacked and destroyed.

NEVE DEKALIM, Gaza Strip (AP) — Palestinians looted dozens of greenhouses on Tuesday, walking off with irrigation hoses, water pumps and plastic sheeting in a blow to fledgling efforts to reconstruct the Gaza Strip. ... Palestinian police stood by helplessly Tuesday as looters carted off materials from greenhouses in several settlements, and commanders complained they did not have enough manpower to protect the prized assets. In some instances, there was no security and in others, police even joined the looters, witnesses said.

The real wealth of nation lies with its people, who are forged in part by the expectations we hold of them. The Left has expected so little of those they've named as victims: they will not be disappointed.

103 Comments:

Blogger miklos rosza said...

It's sad, though.

9/13/2005 07:35:00 PM  
Blogger Baron Bodissey said...

Do you think the Palestinians are the moral & political equivalent of those thugs in New Orleans that shot at helicopters and rescuers, and torched buildings for the heck of it?

It's hard to get one's mind around that kind of destructiveness...

9/13/2005 07:38:00 PM  
Blogger dan from cos said...

These types of actions are the norm for the Arab peoples who have inhabited the area since the Roman occupation. Little or no industriousness, subsistence existence and begging to be slaves/servants in a brutal relationship between themselves and anyone who wants to be king. A very sad expose on the human condition. Juxtapose that on the Iraqi countryside (or Beirut circa 1975) and you see the difference between fishing and being fed fish. Self determination brings with it a sense of usefulness; a sense that hard work will pay off; a sense that the best way to help your neighbor is to give them a helping hand-up. The “Palestinians” will forever be “poor” materially and spiritually as long as the world’s left feeds them…..fish.

9/13/2005 07:43:00 PM  
Blogger Edwin said...

For the Jews who foolishly donated the greenhouses to the Palestinians, they badly need to learn what "The Tragedy of the Commons" is.

For the Palestinians, though, this destruction makes perfect sense. Why should the Palestinians maintain their own greenhouses, grow their own vegetables, or do *anything at all* for themselves when at any time they can just hit up the USA and the international community for more charity?

The Palestinians are the spoiled juvenile delinquents of the world.

9/13/2005 07:43:00 PM  
Blogger leaddog2 said...

If we are lucky, some leftists will finally gain some sense from this mindless action! If the Palestinians begin to starve from lack of fresh vegetables that will be Great!

9/13/2005 07:48:00 PM  
Blogger Rick Ballard said...

Mubarak called an early election and allowed opposition in order to give legitmacy to the results. One might wonder if he did so in order to use that legitimacy as a cover when he deals with the Pali pustule of Gaza firmly embedded in Egypts butt.

Why would Egypt tolerate Hamas terrorists running training camps which will send splodeydopes into Egypt as surely as they send them into Israel?

Perhaps Israel's wall will actually be the border with Egypt in the not too distant future.

9/13/2005 07:59:00 PM  
Blogger Marcus Aurelius said...

If we are lucky, some leftists will finally gain some sense from this mindless action!

Huh? It just shows how much the Palestinians suffered under the occupation. You know, if you were oppressed for so long you would act out in a similar manner.

9/13/2005 08:00:00 PM  
Blogger sam said...

Peace campaigners get Gandhi award:

The third Mahatma Gandhi International Award for Reconciliation and Peace will be awarded today to two women who have campaigned tirelessly for peace between Palestinians and Israelis.

The award will be presented to Hanan Ashwari and Zehava Galon after the Gandhi Lecture, which begins the fourth Celebrate eThekwini Festival today.

http://www.themercury.co.za/index.php?fSectionId=283&fArticleId=2875466

9/13/2005 08:05:00 PM  
Blogger trangbang68 said...

In a related development,there was a serious fight at a Houston high school between the noble refugees from New Orleans and the local thugs and gangstas.Apparently it flowed from a disagreement among parents over who should get first dibs on welfare and food stamps.It would be funny if it wasn't such a tragic commentary on the consequences of liberal bleeding-heartism.Generations in the projects produce the same kind of failed humanity as generations in the Pali camps.
The New Orleans productive citizens will quietly blend in in their new cities or return and rebuild.The underclass will quickly wear out their welcome as compassion fatigue will set in.Unfortunately the race hustler lobby will convince Uncle Sugar to build them swank new ghettos in the new 9th Ward.And the beat goes on.

9/13/2005 08:11:00 PM  
Blogger sam said...

End to inter-faith friction stressed: Palestine, Kashmir issues:

President Musharraf said that specific efforts should be made to bring benefits of development to societies facing problems of interfaith friction and extremism. “Such support should aim at poverty eradication and generation of socio-economic growth and human development.”

The international community, he said, should adopt and implement a comprehensive strategy for promoting cooperation and understanding among faiths and cultures.

“Such a strategy should be inclusive — involving governments, civil society, private sector, media and international organizations.

http://www.dawn.com/2005/09/14/top3.htm

9/13/2005 08:35:00 PM  
Blogger Super 6 said...

Rick said: "Perhaps Israel's wall will actually be the border with Egypt in the not too distant future."

Lots of truth to this. Isreal serves a purpose to many Arab governments by keeping the focus of Palestinian hate and destruction away from themselves.

9/13/2005 08:40:00 PM  
Blogger Red River said...

Ever notice that a thing becomes its activity in our language?

Xerox means to copy.

A toilet is a Crapper.

Vandals vandalize.

And to be a Palestinian is to loot and steal with no thought for the future.

New Orleans was Palestined!

9/13/2005 09:27:00 PM  
Blogger Vercingetorix said...

I can't wait for Cedarford to take up the cause on why the Palestinians are such miserable bastards in every sense of the word.

Material poverty is far outshadowed by the moral; the Palestinians lack both the will and the means to create a better future. The politics, war drama, controversies over what coulda, woulda, shoulda been do nothing to explain away the absolute poverty of the Palestinians to the real world.

They strap bombs on kids and call it warfare, explained away by hack apologists.

They build nothing and destroy whatever windfalls come their way; it takes talent to get funded billions and still be worse off than the year before.

Corrupt leaders, Palestinian leaders, miss opportunities and siphon off tens of billions, not Israeli ones. Mass murderers, Palestinian, teach kids to kill and strap bombs on teenagers to kill kids in malls, not Israelis.

It takes a genius of stupending complexity, or a psychopath, to construct a universe that doesn't choke oneself in its contradiction with things that just ain't so.

9/13/2005 09:29:00 PM  
Blogger Charles said...

Baron Bodissey said...
Do you think the Palestinians are the moral & political equivalent of those thugs in New Orleans that shot at helicopters and rescuers, and torched buildings for the heck of it?
///////////////////
no but they are in administratively similiar situations.


The whole reason for the big stink out of new orleans was that the people from the "Projects" behaved badly and made their administrators look bad. Their administrators belong to powerful government unions, work in federal agencies like HUD and live well in places like Prince Georges County, MD. The burbs. The projects people keep their administrators employed. You see the Projects are not really about the Projects People but rather about their Administrators.

A similiar process is at work with the palestinians. their leadership has also found a way to get dole money. But to maintain the flow of money they have to warp the character of their people.

9/13/2005 10:01:00 PM  
Blogger Mr.Atos said...

The Left has lent legitimacy to a generation of modern barbarians. But they are by no means the guiltiest men of Western Civilization. We have let them define the nature of virtue. They have convinced us that there is virtue in depravity, and we agreed. They have convinced us that there is virtue in selflessness and we agreed. They have convinced us that there is virtue in tolerance and we agreed. They have convinced us that there is virtue in sacrifice and we agreed. The have convinced us that there is guilt in achievement and we agreed. Now when the most depraved humans on the planet proclaim our guilt as reason to demand that we tolerate the sacrifice of our achievement to their violent overtures, on what basis can we defend our existence?

The sack of Western Civilization has begun.

9/13/2005 10:07:00 PM  
Blogger tckurd said...

Dan from Cos said: The “Palestinians” will forever be “poor” materially and spiritually as long as the world’s left feeds them…..fish.


Nay, I say. The "Palestinians" will forever be "poor" materially and spiritually so long as they refuse to become true fishers of men.

9/13/2005 10:08:00 PM  
Blogger Gilly said...

Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will quickly learn to sit in a boat drinking beer.

Fair dinkum, these pricks are hopeless. They have to be weaned off the money to solve the problem. Give them a 5 year non-negotiable Capital Payment Scheme and give them zero afterwards.

If they don't get their act together, then their neighbors like Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria are going to have to inherit the problem.

9/13/2005 10:32:00 PM  
Blogger sam said...

The Right Track:

Ayear into the job as Great Britain’s Am-bassador to Egypt, Sir Derek Plumbly says the potential for strong economic relations between the two countries has never been better.

Plumbly sat down with Business Today Egypt to break down economic relations between Britain and Egypt and reflect on other regional issues.

Critics say the UK is a follower of US policies, especially when it comes to Palestine and Iraq. What do you say?

I say this is not true. I mean we are different in some areas and very close in others.

http://www.businesstodayegypt.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=2382

9/13/2005 11:04:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

Vercingtorix -

Perhaps you can ask the Palestinians themselves why they are such miserable bastards. You don't have too far to look. Over 220,000 are in the USA. Your basic scientists, doctors, engineers, US armed forces soldiers, business owners and store clerks.

Animals, animals all!

Tell them how they are behaving just like the Poles, Hungarians, French, Czechs, Norwiegans, Yugoslavians did under Occupation, then when the Germans left. And, it disgusts you...

9/13/2005 11:41:00 PM  
Blogger sam said...

From an Iranian site:

Zionist troops murder Palestinian teenager:

The Israeli occupation authorities acknowledged the murder, saying the youths were hurling stones toward the Israeli troops.

Since the outbreak of the Palestinian uprising against the Israeli occupation of Palestine, Zionist forces and paramilitary Jewish terrorists killed thousands of Palestinians, the vast bulk of them innocent civilians.

http://www.irna.ir/en/news/view/menu-239/0509145932100928.htm

9/13/2005 11:52:00 PM  
Blogger wretchard said...

Cedarford,

There are thousands of Palestinians in the USA leading productive lives because there is nothing intrinsically wrong with them as individuals. But we must tread carefully here, lest we conclude that Palestinians might prosper in a free and law abiding society; because the inescapable conclusion of that dangerous line of thinking is that they will never prosper under the likes of Hamas and Fatah.

But if we were rash enough to believe that law and freedom were needed so that Palestinians could become like their 220,000 compatriots in the US it would follow that even if we gave the Arabs the entire state of Israel and dismantled every trace of Jewish culture down to the last stone; that for so long as they remained under the spell of the current political culture, they would still be doomed to burn their livelihoods down.

The Middle East peace process can never be measured solely in terms of how much land Israel gives up; it must also be measured by how much Arab political culture changes. Because it is political culture, and little else, that distinguishes the 220,000 US Palestinians from the men who burned the greenhouses.

9/14/2005 12:39:00 AM  
Blogger sam said...

Gaza-Egypt border bustles with celebrations:

Mahmoud Awad, 18, was among the crowds of Palestinians who climbed over the wall on Monday, and who crossed into Egypt just after the last Israeli troops left Gaza on Monday. Awad returned to Gaza yesterday with a sack of bargain schoolbooks, memories of beautiful Egyptian women, and swelling joy at having seen his parents, who live on the other side, for the first time in five years.

In Rafah yesterday, people said they wanted to enjoy the window of openness.

The concrete-block city, one of the grimmest places in impoverished Gaza, has been divided by the border wall since 1982; many families have been split between the Egyptian and Gaza sides.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2005/09/14/gaza_egypt_border_bustles_with_celebrations/?page=1

9/14/2005 12:59:00 AM  
Blogger LHM said...

I suppose in Islam their actions can be justified. The spoils of war.

Gaza is being seen clearly by the rest of the Muslim world as a military victory by the Palestinian people against the Jews.

9/14/2005 01:38:00 AM  
Blogger Darkstar said...

The people in Gaza are no better than the people in New Orleans. My take is that both groups believe that they have no stake in the System. So, how do we get them to take a stake?

9/14/2005 02:13:00 AM  
Blogger Mr. K said...

I object to calling this "looting". Clearly, they just found those things.

9/14/2005 03:44:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Charles, 10:01 PM
re,
"The Projects are not really about the Projects People but rather about their Administrators."
---
I think about 18% of welfare dollars spent are transferred directly to recipients.
Leaving 80% to travel via various and sundry paths through the Haves.
The Haves in Hawaii, that is the Democrat "Leaders" got their way yesterday when their gas price controls finally kicked in after being passed several years ago.
Prices quickly shot up 48 cents/Gallon!
It's so good to have whole classes of people employed and committed to helping others.
But of course they help themselves, while the "helped" go to hell.
---
Then we have oil for food,
Bucks for Baby Bombers,
and so on.

9/14/2005 03:58:00 AM  
Blogger Marcus Aurelius said...

it must also be measured by how much Arab political culture changes.

There is the crux of it all Wretchard.

The goal of the Iraq intervention is to set up a liberal democracy and show it can work for Arabs. There is a reason many of the Palestinian professionals that Cedarford refers to do not work in Palestine and it is not because of the Jooooooish state.

While Iraq is going okay (much better than the Mainstream Misleaders let on or want to confess to) we will have to wait until after our troops have left and the new Iraqi government has been on its own for a while.

The question for Iraq then is, is there a genuine self-government by the people or a cargo-cult democracy?

9/14/2005 04:00:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Mr. k,
Good to see you care.
I was starting to think only marcus and C4 had escaped the cynicism that infects this thread.

9/14/2005 04:01:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

OT,
The Scandal of the racist, much delayed federal response:

"What began as an annual routine flight refresher for Hawaii-based Lt. Cmdr. Thomas Meyer developed into the most emotional and demanding moments in the 14 years he has been in the Coast Guard.

Meyer spent more than a week flying an HH-65 Dolphin helicopter up to seven hours a day while volunteering in the New Orleans area. His crew rescued about 200 people from rooftops, balconies, streets, apartment buildings and other high-ground areas during eight days.

"The silence of the air crew spoke for itself," said Meyer in trying to describe the depth of destruction caused by Hurricane Katrina. "The devastation was just cataclysmic. I have never seen anything like it."

Meyer was in Mobile, Ala., ready to begin a week of refresher training Aug. 27 when the hurricane warning was posted for the Gulf Coast. There are still 14 other Hawaii-based Coast Guard members in the Gulf Coast area.

He said that from the beginning, Homeland Security officials "made it clear what our mandate was." Before the eye of the hurricane passed the shoreline, Coast Guard aircraft and crews were ready to move in, he said.
Coast Guard air crews from the Baton Rouge area, Meyer said, "were some of the first aircraft into the city (New Orleans)."
. _____Rescue_____

9/14/2005 04:16:00 AM  
Blogger Goesh said...

Cheer up! The bleeding heart that bought the greenhouses can go clean their toilets - that will make him feel better about it all.

9/14/2005 04:24:00 AM  
Blogger Goesh said...

P.S. - as long as the Western industrial combines are dependent on arab oil we will continue to go around with fecal matter on our lips whining about how bad they are

9/14/2005 04:32:00 AM  
Blogger Sophia Phoster said...

In the Hopeful Period following Oslo investment capital flowed into the West Bank. Enterprising Palestinians built businesses, employed people, and improved the quality of life for many.

These Palestinian owned/run businesses were the first targets of Arafat's Infitada II, maybe even the reason for it. People are less willing to turn their children into inventory when more honorable means are available. Arafat still got his billions in handouts from the Arabworld, the UN, EU and even the USA. Joe Palestinian took his cut of the money, fitted his kids for suicide belts, and continued to show up for Hamas rallies. There are no Palestinian heroes.

Why people excuse, rationalize and pay homage to a culture whose very existence crushes the human spirit is beyond explanation.

9/14/2005 04:38:00 AM  
Blogger Buffy said...

The cream of Palestinian society emigrated away to the west. Free from the organized criminals who run the Palestinian Authority, they can function as normal people, protected by western concepts of tolerance and rule of law. Back in the West Bank or Gaza they'd probably be ripped to a bloody mass as "collaborators."
Palestinain society is not merely dysfunctional. It is malignantly pathological.

9/14/2005 04:45:00 AM  
Blogger Marcus Aurelius said...

BTW,

My first comment was 100% sarcasm.

9/14/2005 05:04:00 AM  
Blogger kstagger said...

all that looting - has anyone blamed Bush yet?

9/14/2005 05:07:00 AM  
Blogger Engineer-Poet said...

You're right, Goesh.  Oil dependence pays for the maintenance and propagation of this disease.

Are you ready to demand higher gas taxes to discourage consumption, write Congress for a restart of the PNGV, trash your SUV, convert to a gas-optional hybrid or pure EV, and the other measures necessary to do something about it?

(Sorry about the drift, but this isn't going to get done unless we do something about it, and that means making the changes and paying the costs on a personal level.)

9/14/2005 05:10:00 AM  
Blogger Baron Bodissey said...

Charles --
Their administrators belong to powerful government unions, work in federal agencies like HUD and live well in places like Prince Georges County, MD.

Actually, the really powerful administrators live in Montgomery County, MD, and Loudon County, VA.

I used to be a DC-noid, so I know the political-residential geography up there well. Prince Georges is low-rent.

9/14/2005 05:48:00 AM  
Blogger RWE said...

Hey, look at it this way. The Palestinians clearly are exceptional people. In most third world countries it would take a year or two, perhaps more, to reduce something they had been given to utter worthlessness. They got it all done inside a day.
Baron: Yep, PG county is low rent. Used to base my airplane there. Finally had to stop gassing it up except just before flight because the fuel would mysteriously disappear otherwise.
Nearby "Chuck" county is a little better.

9/14/2005 06:05:00 AM  
Blogger RWE said...

Buffy: As to the cream of the Palestiniasn heading to the West, I think you are right, but.... Kuwaitt used to have lots of Palestinians. They were there Filipino-style, doing the work the locals would not. But in 1990 they came down solidly on the side of Saddam. When we kicked Saddam out, the Kuwaitiis told the Palestinians to leave, and right now.
You can take the boy out of Palestine but you can't take the Palestiniansim out of the boy.

9/14/2005 06:12:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

There is no true arab people called "Palestinian", what is living in the gaza and west bank are arabs from all parts of the middle east, if you look at the total population that has MOVED into the area you will find that MOST did not have relatives living there (locally)100 years ago. These are not the best and brightest, these are bottom dwellers, the poor, the uneducated all being set up to be led by a evil gang set up by egypt in 1966. The PLO was funded and formed and supported by the arabs and the ussr to "fight" israel. The reward the Tunisan Mob (arafat the egyptian & company) was the promise of the lands of israel. Gaza and the west bank were LOST after additional attempts to destroy and conquer Israel.

So now we have the crypts and the bloods, all funded with billions of dollars by the petro dollars and the bleeding hearts of the west, they even have their own UN representative and programs, they do not seek the end of refugees, they seek NEVER to stop being perpetual refugeees, they are tasked with freeing all infidel infected lands.

Can the west transform the fake people "palestine" into a real people? Can the the fake history of these carpet baggers actually become real?

I doubt it, long after c4, arafat and millions of arabs are long dust in the wind, the Jews will still hold Jerusalem as thier eternal captial, I doubt this odd experiment of human husbandtry (the palestinian culture & so called people) will last. No other people in the history of the world grows it's young to die. No other people in the world create nothing but death and destruction.

The 200,000 arabs that live in the usa that migrated from those areas are the lucky ones, but somehow as "palestinians" seek to start another child bomb war I bet more and more so called proud palestinians will become, quietly, Americans, of who knows? what lineage.

9/14/2005 06:14:00 AM  
Blogger Brian said...

The money should have been used to buy weapons to punish the Palestinian people to the extent that they deserve.

The Palestinians deserve the same carpet bombing the people of Dresden received. Send them all to Allah, the sooner the better.

9/14/2005 06:45:00 AM  
Blogger jim said...

The fence is not enough, apparently. The Palis need saving from themselves and not from the Israelis, anymore, and the Israelis now need saving from Europe and other Israelis on account of the Palis. Melanie Phillips' Britain's Descent into Madness (2)":

Israel’s Maj.-Gen. Doron Almog who flew to Britain to raise money for a charitable cause, was warned by Israel’s ambassador to London not to disembark from his El Al flight at Heathrow because British detectives were waiting to arrest him. The arrest warrant had been issued on Saturday by the Bow Street Magistrate's Court at the request of a pro-Palestinian group. The warrant alleged that in 2002 Almog had ordered the demolition of 59 Palestinian homes in Rafah. Gen. Almog decided not to alight from the plane, and remained aboard until it turned around and returned to Israel.

The Guardian reported Almog’s reaction:

‘He said that neither he nor his country had any case to answer for the deaths of innocent Palestinians in their battle against militants. "As a soldier and a general I have never committed a crime. Many times I have saved Palestinian lives by risking my life and the lives of my soldiers," he said. The actions of the army in Gaza were to prevent terrorist attacks against Israel, he said.'

The indictment had been filed by an Israeli lawyer living in Britain, Daniel Machover, who is working with a Palestinian pressure group.

9/14/2005 06:53:00 AM  
Blogger Goesh said...

Engineer-poet: darn right I am - I get almost 40 mpg with what I've got now and I don't do unnecessary driving and I am willing to pay a whole lot more for gas and fully tap Alaska and I've written letters more than once. I also advocate the concept of total war when dealing with terrorism. It must be nice to be a hamas member and be on the State Dept.'s list of terrorist orgnanizations, attack our ally Israel and be totally exempt from any US retaliation. It must be nice to parade with arms, wearing masks as hamas does , knowing that neither the US or Israel can do a damn thing about it. It must be nice indeed. It must be nice to send a few suicide jihadis to Iraq to kill American soliders and Iraqis and not even have the fact mentioned in the media. I would be pissing on the American flag and a picture of Bush in public every day and having al jazeera publish pictures of it. Talk about rallying people......

9/14/2005 07:04:00 AM  
Blogger Papa Bear said...

Cedarford, re the 220,000 in the USA

It's a fact of life that the more energetic and ambitious segment of a group, will be the ones most likely to move to where their talents can be best used, and where the fruits of their labor will not be stolen by thugs. This tendency has benefitted the US for over two hundred years

The ones left there, are the ones who chose not to leave

9/14/2005 07:29:00 AM  
Blogger Jon said...

In hindsight, it should have been pretty obvious that this kind of lawlessness would break out in the wake of the unilateral withdrawal, and that it would set Gazan self-sufficiency and independence back by years. A couple thoughts:

1) Why didn't the "international community" offer the PA troops to help maintain order? Everyone knew Gaza would be the tough nut to crack. If UN troops would be seen as "occupiers," couldn't the muslim countries offer troops?

2) Seriously, there is almost no chance that Gaza + the West Bank can collectively form a viable state. Maybe they can live off international welfare for a while, but they don't have any significant industry and they're ungovernable. The only plausible solutions seem to be (i) annexing Gaza into Egypt and the West Bank into Jordan (the 1967 solution for real), or (ii) annexing both into Israel. Unfortunately, I don't think Egypt, Jordan, or Israel wamt the territories, if they have to take the Palestinians with them.

9/14/2005 07:46:00 AM  
Blogger Mətušélaḥ said...

The 200,000 "Palestinian Arab" are not Palestinian and are not Arab. Neither are they of the Muslim death cult meme. These are Christians that fled from what are now PA/Jihadi controlled areas. Many of these Christians took on the "national identity" and cause of Jihad as a mechanism of self defense, hoping that such an alliance might help preserve their Christian heritage in a Muslim dominated area. When the Jihadis finally solidified their hold in these areas (with the help of the EU and the US), these Christians were forced to face a simple reality -- They are not Muslim.

9/14/2005 07:55:00 AM  
Blogger Dan said...

And to believe that the Palestinians' - or indeed the Arabs' - political culture of vengeance, violence and avarice are the result of occupation - imperialist, colonialist, Zionist, or even Turkic - is to stand in serious ignorance with respect to history. These are a people among whom it is a general sentiment that a visceral rage will rise from an Iraqi mother when a US medic tells her he can do nothing to cure her son's Downs syndrome. These are people for whom "democracy" means nothing but "Western" and usually "imperialist," and probably Jewish conspiracy. These are people who are ruled by a religion which means Submission, who are chronic late-comers, non-innovators, culturally parasitic. The consequences of the geological accident of oil deposits has blinded most those who claim to have the least attraction to raw profit. We are dealing with perhaps the most pathologically mysoginist culture in the history of culture. We are dealing with a culture whose wealth distribution resembles Pharaonic Egypt far more closely than it resembles even feudal Europe. We are dealing with a culture whose experience of the Enlightenment and lived concepts of personal responsability consists in the co-option of a tiny minority of elites, educated in France and England, whose fathers hoped to benefit commercially and politically from the influence of Europeans from their trading outposts along their fragile global commercial arteries and capillaries. This is the same minority who chose socialism and revolution, who propogated the Wretched of the Earth myth of gestapo-style occupation, buttressed by enough true examples to plausibly impute an overall motive of pure exploitation and reduction to a moralizing analysis. Its socialism triumphant, through the armies, to whom the elites allied themselves either before or after and for the same reasons, led it to entente with the Soviet Union - thus coming into our sphere of concern. All the while a massive proportion of the populace lingered in its ancient prerogative, unhappiily incorporating the new aesthetic of the transformed elites into the ancient unkillable habit of regarding the king as the king, whoever he may be. The king discreditted, the elites co-opted and confused by their alliances, threw up the rest of the populace, dominated by its old habits of analysis, buttressed by the rhythms of their daily existence. What we are witnessing in Islamism - among the Palestinians and elsewhere - is, I beg to differ, a counterrevolution, following the socialist revolution, itself following the destruction of Ottoman legitimacy under Muhammad Ali and then its authority and ambition under the Young Turks. The Arabs were truncated, en masse, in a way unprecedented in history. Adopted by the Triple Entente in the old mode of defending Constantinople from Russian imperial prerogatives, they now complain to those new masters; if they had to no oil, they would complain louder, but far fewer would hear them. The novelty of Osama bin Laden is his old time Islamic warlord populism, as distinct from the obviously false populism of socialism and the elites' previous complete indifference to Ahmed Sixpack. Look at the appeals of the Islamists everywhere, the recourse to ancient glory and racial right. They make themselves intelligble to us only insofar as they adopt the post-socialist grievance mongering that has been endlessly demonstrated to be effective under so many different conditions. They believe utterly - whether as mere intellectual background radiation or in starkly delineated images of bedouin holy warriors annihilating the dark, featureless enemy - as pre-Reformation Catholics believed in the earthly kingdom of the Chosen and earthly realm of Satan. We have chosen the noble, difficult path - which I will not claim for Israel, although I support it - of attempting to establish a master-student relationship, through great expense to ourselves and with only a middling but certainly plausible chance for success - despite the fact that all the foregoing analysis IS KNOWN TO OUR GOVERNMENT AS IT IS KNOWN TO VIRTUALLY EVERYONE ELSE. There is no alternative besides ancient subjugation: destroy a ton of crap, kill a lot of people, destroy their economy excpet what we can usefully and jealously exploit, set ourselves up as master, repress all inconvenient local habits with great cruel symbolic gestures. That has, of course, almost universally been their prior experience, after all, except when need or super-rare kindliness gave them a reprieve. Of course both states, however, were an invitation to instability in the region, an invitation to play the game of tribal-familial rivalry with that much more ardent hope of gaining a greater slice for one's own. Natural enough. But the mistake would be to regard this is a situation where we or anyone near them can simply regard as one where either we leave them to themselves, as of old, or we go in an meddle in our muddled Anglo-derived way. Fools. And Cedarford imagines this is merely a question of Jewish influence, as if the fortunes of a tiny minority in a tiny state, no matter the disproprtional wealth of its tiny populace, could seriously or fatally influence the policy of the unrivalled global hegemon towards an imploding civilization stretching from Morocco to at least Kashmir. What a pathetically cramped, preoccupied, neurotic perspective. The fact that the Palestinians razed the greenhouses meant for their development is nothing remarkable in the least; they saw lootable buildings; they looted them. Their interest in the general welfare, as distinct from tribal or familial welfare, is nil. They do not have civil society, except that it stand in for a useful surrogate of themselves. Civil society is the prerogative of imperial culture, however much it may have had to devolve into a mere nation. But Palestinian society is the result of a collapse not from empire to nation, but from empire to roofless tribal bickering, the ancient bedouin normalcy. It is poor not only in materials but in philosophy; it is poor in history; it is poor in religious richness; it is poor in empathy; it is poor in mental health; it is poor, from our perspective, in a number of things so bewilderinng because it is difficult for us to conceive that this or that element was susceptible to differing conditions of health. Please: the Palestinians will never achieve more than a level of organization required to be a military outpost for the people who have no concept of time (a millenial concept of time is merely eschatological and therefore none at all) - unless we destroy those who would use it as such. There is no alternative - excpet that the endemic bickering and incompetence preclude even that small feat. That is too much to hope for, however. It is against this that Israel struggles. And although so do all reasonable, developed Arabs, I'm afraid that what passes as a reasonable, well-developed "Arab!" does not struggle against it at all. We will have to hope that our form of well-organized self-interest - as opposed to bickering super-factional or mere autarchy - can appeal to them in some form that doesn't invite their eventual and reasonable annihilation. That of course is an alternative ancient enough to be generally understood by all.

9/14/2005 08:24:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Marcus,
It's not humor unless it has a grain of truth. .-)

9/14/2005 10:48:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

No matter how many helicopters I shoot at no-one will stop and help ME.

9/14/2005 10:51:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

dan 8:24

bravo....

well said....

9/14/2005 11:06:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Pork,
If they really are perpetual refugees, why couldn't engineer poet harness all that excess energy in one of those rat race devices and break the surly bonds of the second law of thermodynamics? ...and the Palis could be perpetually tasked with freeing all infidel lands infected w/the energy dependence virus.

9/14/2005 11:06:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

c,
We just gotta get them folk edjudicated:
---
ARMADO. [To HOLOFERNES] Monsieur, are you not lett'red?
MOTH. Yes, yes; he teaches boys the hornbook. What is a, b, spelt backward with the horn on his head?
HOLOFERNES. Ba, pueritia, with a horn added.
MOTH. Ba, most silly sheep with a horn. You hear his learning.
HOLOFERNES. Quis, quis, thou consonant?
MOTH. The third of the five vowels, if You repeat them; or the fifth, if I.
HOLOFERNES. I will repeat them: a, e, I-
MOTH. The sheep; the other two concludes it: o, U.

9/14/2005 11:27:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

If I could be c,
I would be Costard.

9/14/2005 11:33:00 AM  
Blogger jim said...

Fun stuff, Doug! Is that from Rove's Labour's Lost?

9/14/2005 12:13:00 PM  
Blogger anybudee said...

Wretchard says that the difference between productive Palis in the US and the thugs in Gaza is political culture. So does that explain the thugs in NO?

I read this yesterday at realpolitics:

He (George Weigel) concludes that “Europe is dying. The wasting disease that has beset this once greatest of civilizations is not physical, however. It is a disease in the realm of the human spirit.”
Look upon the suicide clinic in Switzerland that administers a glass of schnapps and then a peaceful death by injection. Note the German laws that legalized prostitution two years ago, theoretically exposing laid-off waitresses and secretaries to the risk of having to entertain job offers from the sex industry or face the loss ofunemployment benefits. Realize that 31 percent of pediatricians in the Netherlands have euthanized an infant, and that a fifth of these took place without the knowledge or consent of parents. more...

Europe Learns the Wrong Lessons
By Karl Zinsmeister


Atos said we are witnessing the end of Western Civilization. First glance, I thought it was overwrought. (Mr. A does have a flair for the dramatic) But if you put Europe, Gaza and NO in context, you come away thinking his explanation fits better than isolated cultural differences.

9/14/2005 12:21:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

c,
Rove's labor was lost on this lady:
Rush describes her as Donna, Explanation for the Divorce Rate in America .
You don't have to read the whole thing to get his point.
His original post with him rolling his eyes and holding his head as she droned on was even funnier.

9/14/2005 12:55:00 PM  
Blogger Annoy Mouse said...

Palestinian authorities were looking the other way…”We are letting them blow off steam, things will be back to normal in a few days.” Can hardly wait for normalcy to return.

9/14/2005 12:58:00 PM  
Blogger jim said...

RUSH: Well, I just have a simple question: What is the question?

Doug, exactly! Could even Will himself have improved upon that farce?

9/14/2005 01:58:00 PM  
Blogger Matt36 said...

humm

9/14/2005 02:05:00 PM  
Blogger jim said...

Humm is right. (But I don't understand it!)

Costard-D: What do we end up with, when chroniclers disavow their vow-els to truth and fairness and stay consonant with pishposh and propaganda?

Rove: Has to be the MiaSMa that is our press. And, MaoiSM, oddly enough!

(from R's L.L.)

9/14/2005 03:04:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

Pork for Yahweh writes:


I doubt this odd experiment of human husbandtry (the palestinian culture & so called people) will last.

No doubt you would have had equal cynicism of the so-called American people had you lived 230 years ago. Or the Australians. Or the so-called Kenyans or Filipinos fresh from the jungles calling themselves a people.

No doubt you think legitimacy of nationhood is linked to ancient pedigree and degree of racial or ethnic purity involved. Not surprising. Germans drew heavily on 18th and 19th Century philosophers in creating the Volk concept that helped facilitate German unification. Zionists drew on the 19th Cent German political work to formulate their own superiority mythos, racial purity goals, aggressive expansion by force, socialism, and unification objectives. National Socialism drew on earlier German work, but their leading theoreticians found great ideas within Zionism and adapted Nazi ideas from Zionism.

There is no true arab people called "Palestinian", what is living in the gaza and west bank are arabs from all parts of the middle east, if you look at the total population that has MOVED into the area you will find that MOST did not have relatives living there (locally)100 years ago.

Actually, Y-Haploid chromosome studies of the people in the area show the least genetic drift from the orginal people of ancient Canaan is with the Separdic Jews and the Palestinians. If you look at genetic relatedness from the perspective of a target with rings, those two occupy the bull's eye. "The cousins" as both sides call them.

The Lebanese and Syrians occupy the "8" ring. Saudis and Egyptians are further out in the "6" ring. Iranians and Askenazi Jews out in the "5" ring, and way out - Swedes, Chinese, Ethiopean Jews, Australian Abos basically off the target entirely.

Not surprising the Sephardics and Pals are cousins, since both have Hebrew tribal ancestors. But long ago, part of the Pals ancestors were Jews who converted to Christianity and Islam. On the other hand, Sephardim frequently married goyim wives amidst the Syrian or Moroccan towns they plied their trade in. To the genes in both pools no longer resemble the Hebrews - who were just one of many waves of nomadic people that came out of Saudi Arabia.

9/14/2005 03:29:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

CALLER: So we both know that President Bush has a very good, um, analyst, and he knows, um, that it's very important to present a certain picture, a certain image, say certain words because the average consuming public is going to get their ten-second snippets on the news and it will look good.
---
And before poor W got sucked into this game, all HE cared about was if his BLT had enuff Maonaise.

9/14/2005 03:39:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

What I meant to say to start out with, of course.
Was,
If I cUd b u.
I WuD b C.
And C wUd b mE.
And mE WuD b Costard.
But mI brane wuz mush,
(LIke Custard)

9/14/2005 03:49:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

How could ANYone think they were superior to the Bard, in his day?
Or any Democrat during this airing of Mr. Rogers?

9/14/2005 03:54:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Lousiana's Head of Disaster Recovery is at a Symposium in New York!
(Hewitt)
(they did not foresee the danger to emergency workers when they were planning.
Guess they didn't know their mayor too well.)

9/14/2005 04:27:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Guy's name is Lou. Sis is Louis.

9/14/2005 04:29:00 PM  
Blogger shataqat said...

Wretchard,

per,

"Because it is political culture, and little else, that distinguishes the 220,000 US Palestinians from the men who burned the greenhouses."

It is surely this, but in a number of dimensions. The Palestinians in the US are overwhelmingly Christian. While some of them are very anti-Jewish (and generally of a low self esteem), not one has fielded a "martyrdom operation," and very few engage in the the cultural and social trappings that allow for it.

These people, ironically (to c4s point), are also that very population ethnically cleansed by the Islamists on the takeover of the Territories by the PLO, and the windfall of Nasserism/Bathism failing to displace Political Islam with an idol of [Arab] nationalism. Same is happening in Iraq these days....but I digress.

The extension of this story, incidentally, can be found in the many refuge Maronites (like me, but no I don't consider myself an "Arab") who have been forced to leave our country (Lebanon) in order to escape the Palestinian/Muslim onslaught.

9/14/2005 04:58:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

shataqat -

Not entirely correct. There are more Muslim Pals than Christians.

Of the Christians, they hate Israel and Arafat equally. Israel for stealing their lands and property with no compensation, destroying the delicate balance that existed between Christian and Muslim before Israel came to be, and for the anti-Christian bias of the Jews. Arafat for screwing up everything he touched.

The Muslim-American Pals have made it a mission to better educate Americans about the ME and remove from texts and media the Zionist myths and lies the American public has been fed for years. They are also working on making inroads with American blacks and hispanics to counterbalance the clout of the Israel Lobby.

9/14/2005 06:39:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

Enlighten us, Cedar: what Zionist ideas did the Nazis adapt.

9/14/2005 06:45:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

From what I remember it was more a case of being uncomfortable associates in the post-war radical non-Left milieu in Germant and Central Europe at time. What some would like to interpret as a borrowing was just a sharing, I think - but I can't remember any exact propositions and I could be wrong, so let's hear one.

9/14/2005 07:26:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

Start with the racially pure nation proposition the Zionists advocated, Dan. That was music to the National Socialists ears, and served as a template for Aryan purity.

(Early Zionists believed Jews were a race and discussed a pure Homeland and a pure people occupying it in racial terms)

9/14/2005 08:45:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Teacher in NY City says he has lots of students from Russia/Ukraine and when they see a map they point and say
"That's my country!"
He points out that THIS is their country now, but says they're just here to get whatever they can.
Says some are Jews from the Ukraine who harbor Ukranian Pride.
He points out they killed Jews, but I guess that's ancient history, or history never learned!

9/14/2005 09:22:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

C4,
I'm a racially pure mongrel.

9/14/2005 09:24:00 PM  
Blogger Mətušélaḥ said...

Cedarfard: Start with the racially pure nation proposition the Zionists advocated..


What idiot thought this ever was to be a practical proposition? That, let's say, Jews from "Arabia" only will to be allowed back to their ancestral lands in Judea? Cedarfard?

9/14/2005 09:56:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Cassandra - 1943 .
. Long Beach Museum of Art .
High Drama:
Eugene Berman and the Legacy of the Melancholic SublimeSeptember 9 through October 30, 2005
. from Wiki

9/14/2005 11:27:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

That was not an invention of Herzl's or anyone else's - the idea had been circulating in France at least a decade before Herzl's book.

9/15/2005 06:09:00 AM  
Blogger Dan said...

Does the name Charles Maurras mean anything to you, for example?

9/15/2005 06:10:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

i wrote :There is no true arab people called "Palestinian", what is living in the gaza and west bank are arabs from all parts of the middle east, if you look at the total population that has MOVED into the area you will find that MOST did not have relatives living there (locally)100 years ago.

c4 answers sort of: Actually, Y-Haploid chromosome studies of the people in the area show the least genetic drift from the orginal people of ancient Canaan is with the Separdic Jews and the Palestinians. If you look at genetic relatedness from the perspective of a target with rings, those two occupy the bull's eye. "The cousins" as both sides call them.

Like I said there is no such thing as an Arab Palestinian people, but you prove my point, that the Jews cannot be colonists if their DNA is very close to other arabs that live there, then the JEWS cannot be occupiers and colonists but rather natives....

hey c4 can you say shalom?

9/15/2005 06:44:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

c4: Start with the racially pure nation proposition the Zionists advocated, Dan. That was music to the National Socialists ears, and served as a template for Aryan purity.

(Early Zionists believed Jews were a race and discussed a pure Homeland and a pure people occupying it in racial terms)

Yes you start with the concept that jews could live in a country that jews ran / controlled, unlike any other nation in the world where jews were 3 class subhumans. No where in Zionist dreams was there a hope for racial purity as you speak, jews wanted to SURVIVE as a group, is that what you call racial purity?

9/15/2005 06:47:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

c4: destroying the delicate balance that existed between Christian and Muslim before Israel came to be

yes aint it a shame the original owners, the jews, demand the right to live in their historic homeland, i bet that pissed the arabs off enough to murder jewish babies and women.... starting in 1885...

nice balance when arabs have their foot on your back and a knife at your throats... sorry i dont like that balance

9/15/2005 06:51:00 AM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

POrk for yahweh - No where in Zionist dreams was there a hope for racial purity as you speak, jews wanted to SURVIVE as a group, is that what you call racial purity?

That's not what I said, that's what Hertzel and early Zionists said in their writings. A 100% "racially pure" Jewish state.

Pork for yahweh again:

but you prove my point, that the Jews cannot be colonists if their DNA is very close to other arabs that live there, then the JEWS cannot be occupiers and colonists but rather natives....

Of course they can. Japanese and
Koreans are cousins, genetically. Japan did try the occupation and colonization route. It was wrong. They were tossed out, even though Japanese had an "ancient claim" to all of Korea. Germans tried the same stunt invading to occupy and colonize the ancient German homeland from the interloping Slavs.

We all know how that turned out.

hey c4 can you say shalom?

Build good fences, Pork, treat your Pal neighbors as human beings, and who knows? Perhaps one day Israelis be saying shalom to Palestinians.

9/15/2005 07:39:00 AM  
Blogger jim said...

Dan's 8:24- what you Said and not Edward
Doug's 3:49- shear poetry

9/15/2005 08:24:00 AM  
Blogger Cwhig said...

Well, as our defense chief said, "Stuff happens...democracy is messy."

Cwhig

9/15/2005 08:51:00 AM  
Blogger anybudee said...

C' fer

I do appreciate your interchanges with pork. And kudos to you too, pork rinds. These are incredibly touchy subjects that NO ONE else speaks to knowledgably without hatred and condescension.

We, as spectators, know that the subjects are there, like the proverbial elephants in the room, but who can hash them out without warfare? You guys come closer than anyone I've ever seen (and I've seen a lot).

You probably don't know it, but that stuff represents, at least to me, the faintest of hopes for a real middle east solution. Imagine that.

One thing C4, please don't call him 'pork for yahweh'. Please. That term is considered the sacred name for God (God is just a title) and revered by Jews and Christians. Thanks. BTW, what part of Lebanon are you from?

9/15/2005 09:08:00 AM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

Anybudee - Pork for Yahweh is just a flip on the equally sacreligious "Pork Rinds for Allah".

Not knowing who's in charge, when we die, maybe both terms are ill-advised.

No Lebs in the family, but Syrian Chaldeans have been since the 1980's. (By the Y-Haploid chromosome test, 2nd cousins to the Sephardim and Pals.)

9/15/2005 10:22:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

C4: Build good fences, Pork, treat your Pal neighbors as human beings, and who knows? Perhaps one day Israelis be saying shalom to Palestinians.

So here it is folks, the real problem... if only the Israelis were nice to the Palestinians...

Utter nonsense......

How about this..

Dear Palestinians,

I wont die and go away, f*ck off.

Have a nice day, far away from me, you murderous death cult bastards....

9/15/2005 11:07:00 AM  
Blogger anybudee said...

I thought as much C'fer, something like that anyway. You know things VERY few people in America know. Some of it doesn't fit their paradigm and some I don't know if it's true.

You got guts, challenging the conventional wisdom. If I've already been so brash as to offer advice, please allow me one more. - Don't hate. No matter what anyone does, it's not worth it, no one is worth it. Hatred will eat away your insides and turn you into a cariciture. ("You have become Messala" Remember that line?) Hate does nothing to it's object but consumes it's host.

MLK used to quote Proverbs, "anger (hatred) destroys the rod of authority" and "a gentle tongue can break a bone." (Forgive the preachiness)

9/15/2005 11:56:00 AM  
Blogger Mətušélaḥ said...

anybudee: Don't hate.

Hate is a virus. Once you have it, it never goes away.

9/15/2005 01:46:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

For everything there is a season,
And a time for every matter under heaven:
A time to be born, and a time to die;
A time to plant, and a time to pluck up what is planted;
A time to kill, and a time to heal;
A time to break down, and a time to build up;
A time to weep, and a time to laugh;
A time to mourn, and a time to dance;
A time to throw away stones, and a time to gather stones together;
A time to embrace, And a time to refrain from embracing;
A time to seek, and a time to lose;
A time to keep, and a time to throw away;
A time to tear, and a time to sew;
A time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
A time to love, and a time to hate,
A time for war, and a time for peace.

Ecclesiastes 3:1-8

Hating Evil is required and good...

9/15/2005 04:03:00 PM  
Blogger anybudee said...

No, PCK, I'm happy to say that hatred is more bacteriological in nature. There is an Antibiotic.

Evil is a principle. I hate many principles that some others hold dear. The proscribed hatred I'm referring to is for people. "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." No greater commandment, Someone said.

9/15/2005 04:46:00 PM  
Blogger shataqat said...

Cedarford,

"Not entirely correct. There are more Muslim Pals than Christians"

I am entirely correct habibi, from 2000 Census:

11% of "Arab-Americans" are Palestinian/Jordanian
77% of the "Arab-American" population is Christian, including above.

From my experience they are half Orthodox Christian, at least 15% Catholics/Maronites and the rest Muslim and Muslim Apostates or non believers. Where do you get your "facts" from? Even Zogby would agree with these numbers.

"Of the Christians, they hate Israel and Arafat equally"

Yes many of them swallowed deep the taqqyia, they are dhimmis par excellence, for this and their endless cowtowing to hArafat, and massive collusion with the ME commies and the fascists, they are rather disrespected by many of the other Christian communities of the ME, namely the Maronites and Copts, and a great deal of the Assyrians from Syria (the Assyrians from Iraq are often too anti-Semitic and anti Islamic and anti Catholic to boot). Furthermore, the Palestinian national project (which is an 1965 Egyptian/Soviet fabrication like everybody in the ME knows) is fundamentally of the "Christian leave now" variety, anti-Semitism of all parties not withstanding. Just like the anti-Zionist Jews are used at the forefront by the lazy press and the Arabists to attack the Zionists, and how certain Lebanese who swear allegiance to the Ayatollah before the state of Lebanon are used like knives to attack true patriots, the [Palestinian] Christian Arab is the human shield of Islam against civilized nations (like Israel).

"Israel for stealing their lands and property with no compensation, destroying the delicate balance that existed between Christian and Muslim before Israel came to be."

It's funny you say such things... it's as if a stranger arriving from Pluto is telling me how my neighbors are the best people on the block while we hear them beat their children daily! Israel never stole their land, they should have stayed put and not listened to their Muslim masters when they told them to leave in 1948 (we know: we have some family who stayed around Jerusalem till 1963 when their moosloom neighbors started painting nice little things on their house). Those who stayed still have their property, at least in whats Israel today. And I would venture to say that if it was only them concerned (and not Muslims), and even though they're mostly anti-Semitic (yes not only anti-Zionist, since I know and live amongst so many of them), Israel would probably still allow them to return (we of course would be happy to part with all of them from my country). As for the "delicate balance", lol, yes it is the balance of keeping a kalb on a leash. Care to guess what a kalb is? Care to guess what Palisto muslims call their "Christian brothers" in open public, like markets (even in Lebanon and certainly in Jordan)? Care to guess how many Churches were allowed to be fixed by the moslems, Turk or Arab, before the invention of Israel, per Islamic dictate?

9/15/2005 07:18:00 PM  
Blogger shataqat said...

Here are some additional facts and Christian opinions that can be ca-google-laborated by non Jewish sources (of course to some all news sources are considered "Jewish"):

* The PA Constitution declares “in the State of Palestine…the religion of Islam will
be the official religion” and “Sharia will be the primary source of legislation.” umm comment?

*There has been a stark rise in "vandalism of Christian graves" in the PA-controlled areas since Israel pulled out. There has never been an incident of Jews (but not Druze unfortunately) doing likewise, they've looked the other way unfortunately sometimes, but then again so have so many of us, but never ever did Israelis do shit like this, neither in the West Bank nor Southern Lebanon.

*Church of the Nativity was invaded, ransacked and desecrated completely by moslems for theological reasons. Smaller Churches have been burned, used as traps (snipper nests) for Israelis who shot back... often not shot back.

*A Palestinian Christian, Ghada Mansour, was formerly the producer of a news show on the PA-controlled Voice of Palestine radio. Mansour said that the news director at the radio station told her that “Christian names should not be included among the obituaries read on the air.”

*Lina Atallah, a receptionist at the Silesian Convent and Church, described the Muslim attitude toward Christians: “They spit at us, try to force us to wear headscarves, and in the [Islamic] fasting month of Ramadan that begins in a few days, the Palestinian police even arrest us for smoking or eating on the streets.…The Muslims want to get rid of us, they want us to live like them.” when in rome... right habibi?

*Christians have great difficulty purchasing land or selling real estate they already own to other Christians. Corroborating evidence was furnished by a Palestinian Christian man named Ramzi, who, in a confidential interview in Ramallah, recounted that he had been threatened with death if he sold land to Christians [who wanted it in order to build a new school]. A Christian leader affirmed that “[t]he [PA] Land Law is a threat against us.”

*American courts have granted asylum to Palestinian Christians on the grounds that they would be persecuted for their religious beliefs if they return to PA territory.

*Anglican Jerusalem Bishop Riah Abu El-Assal says: "Unfortunately for Middle East Christians they look on us as enemies, just as they look upon the Jews as enemies. I have heard fundamentalist groups in Palestine say, ‘After Saturday [the Jewish day of rest] comes Sunday [the Christian day of rest]’—and my blood runs cold.” This guy btw is no friend of the Jews.

*Sana Razi Nashash, a 24-year-old Christian woman from Beit Jallah stated in an interview, that she is a virtual prisoner in her own home due to the pervasiveness of [Muslim] harassment of Christian women. “[S]o right now I could not go to the street, even 7 o’clock I cannot go to the street alone, but before [the PA came to power] I used to go and work with no problem at night.”

*Commenting on the widespread occurrence of rape by Muslim men against Christian women in PA territory, Inaz Jiries Hanna Muslah, a 23-year-old Palestinian Christian teacher explained that Christian women are raped with the intention that they will no longer be able to find a Christian husband. She stated, “Some Muslim guys raped many girls, Christian. And…she can’t [get] married after that....”

* Muslim converts to Christianity (no matter what sect) are harassed or outright lynched in bare daylight. There is the famous stories of Ahmad El-Achwal and Muhammad Bak’r.

next...

"Arafat for screwing up everything he touched"

Hehe...it wasn't, and certainly isn't, only hArafat. Since the Muslim armies stretched out of Medina, killing Christians and Zoroastrians and Sabeans and Jews like sheep.... a great shadow was cast over the middle east, if not the whole world.

"The Muslim-American Pals have made it a mission to better educate Americans about the ME and remove from texts and media the Zionist myths and lies the American public has been fed for years."

Almost all of them in the US dont give a rats ass actually, and when they do speak they cry about their relatives being raped and stabbed, not by the Israelis. But many of us make it our mission, these days, to contradict the islamo-"christian" "activists" completely. CAIR does not represent us. And there are a lot more of us then them. We're not Arabs and proud of it. Araby/Islam is nothing short of torture and death to us. Israel is not the promised land for us, it is, however, an example and continued hope, of how a historic ME people can defeat Arabic barbarity; can shake the Arabic language for their original historic language, how they practice their own non-Muslim religion without fear; how they build a modern thriving western, warts and all, society in a sea of hate and backwardness. Yes, I consider the Israeli Jews, and the few Samaritans left, my blood cousins, and western compatriots. God help them in their fight! And God save the Christian Palistos, for they know not what they do.

And if you have the gall to tell me I am brainwashed by Zionists, then you just don't understand this is what my parents and grandparents and great grand parents knew well before Herzl and the modern Zionists were born. This is what we have seen with our own eyes and heard with our own ears. We are the ones teaching the Zionists often (not Sephardics since they already know), certainly not the other way around.

9/15/2005 07:20:00 PM  
Blogger Mətušélaḥ said...

Shataqat,

Habibi? More like majnun.

9/15/2005 08:56:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

from al ahram:

The security situation in Gaza is rapidly deteriorating. In the last week, six Gazans were killed and 89 injured due to internal violence emanating from family disputes, the explosion of a Hamas weapons site, and an operation mounted by the Popular Resistance Committee (PRC) -- levels of violence similar to that experienced during Israeli incursions.

Last Thursday night, masked members of the PRC -- an umbrella group of resistance factions -- shuffled from one side of a dark street in Gaza City to the other choosing the best location for their press conference to announce the release of Menhal Arafat, a PA security official, whom they had held hostage for nearly two days. His release was brokered by an Egyptian delegation in Gaza on condition that he is prosecuted for alleged crimes, including embezzlement. Two day earlier, PRC members dragged his father, Moussa Arafat, former security chief and head of military intelligence, into the street and shot him to death.

not to mention the EIGHT that DIED at the coast swimming in the sea.......

It seems the Pali's dont have a functioning baywatch team, it's hard for the islamic Pam Anderson to swim with a burka on... so Allah let's them die...

question, if a pali's die not trying to murder a jew, does he still get 72 virgins in heaven?

9/15/2005 09:34:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

shataqat - I have the gall to say you are brainwashed by the Zionists when you have the gall to perpetuate their lies and myths. As when you say Christians were welcome to stay during the 1948 Ethnic cleansing. They weren't. As when you repeat the lie that Arab leaders told the people to flee - that in more detail, for 2 decades the Zionists claimed "Arab radio broadcasts" told people to flee to better allow Arabs to invade and exterminate the Jews. Thus, all the Muslims and Christians deserved to lose all their land and property and not get a shekel - because they VOLUNTARILY ABANDONED IT --- making it all private or public Jewish asssets.

Unfortunately, the Zionists were not aware of the extent of British and American signals intercepts at the time. British scholars reviewed the tapes from 1964-66 and found the Zionists had sold a whopper to avoid having money pried from their fingers or give up land "redeemed" and for Jews only in the future. The tapes actually showed Arab broadcasts encouraging Christians and Muslims to stay and fight, not flee the Jewish Stern and Irgun terror squads..

Chris Hitchens documents the history of the lie and interviews with all parties but the IDF - which refused comment on how the Zionist concoction was disassembled. An excellent essay of his called "Broadcast".

The IDF finally came clean in interviews with Israeli historian Benny Morris. Revealing it wasn't just the Stern and Irgun Jewish terrorists, but a methodical campaign of terror run at the highest levels of Zionist leaders to cleanse the Arab part of the Partition lands. 453 villages were destroyed and the usual method was to go in and select and rape & kill a portion of the Arab villagers or farmers along the conquest front - then send the survivors to warn more distant farms and villages to flee.

Some Jews rebelled against this terror, like in Jerusalem, Haifa, the Negev, and Galilee - preserving those non-Jews.

9/15/2005 10:48:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

c4:
the usual method (idf) was to go in and select and rape & kill a portion of the Arab villagers or farmers along the conquest front - then send the survivors to warn more distant farms and villages to flee.

please prove this...

9/16/2005 06:22:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

c4: As when you say Christians were welcome to stay during the 1948 Ethnic cleansing.

British scholars reviewed the tapes from 1964-66

so you say there are tapes made in 1964-1966 are of events in 1948...

wow, what a time machine.....

wait, i have to go, the History channel is showing the Twight Zone again

9/16/2005 06:26:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

c4: As when you say Christians were welcome to stay during the 1948 Ethnic cleansing. They weren't. (in israel)

Yes c4, the lands of israel are christian free! opps that's the PA controled WEST BANK I was thinking of....

Yes c4 the ARAB world has cleansed it'sself of jews and christians and yet you still point your bony finger at israel, me thinks you protest to much....

9/16/2005 06:28:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

c4: Thus, all the Muslims and Christians deserved to lose all their land and property and not get a shekel - because they VOLUNTARILY ABANDONED IT --- making it all private or public Jewish asssets.


or you could say and be truthful:

Thus, all the Jews deserved to lose all their land and property and not get a shekel - because they VOLUNTARILY ABANDONED IT --- making it all private or public arab asssets.

this occured in 21 nations of the arab world, any comment? nope, just worried about your pals the suicide death cult lot called "palestinians"?

9/16/2005 06:30:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

c4: The tapes actually showed Arab broadcasts encouraging Christians and Muslims to stay and fight

please list all tapes, please list those tapes that say "stay and fight"...

do you have transcripts? or are you just ad hoc editing as you go?

9/16/2005 06:33:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

c4: Some Jews rebelled against this terror, like in Jerusalem, Haifa, the Negev, and Galilee - preserving those non-Jews.

so you just listed MOST of 1948 israel, with the exception of Tel Aviv (which never had a large christian or arab population)

so are you now saying, there are isolated cases of rape by israeli's?

please list ANY victims names and dates...

9/16/2005 06:36:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

C4 quotes Benny Hill, opps I mean Morris..

Morris is not a shining example of being a historian

How to counter Benny? read and learn in context the wars of 1948 & 1967, understand the beginings of a state when surrounded by MILLIONs of arab seeking it's destruction, so to glibbly look back at the israeli position of defensible borders pointing a bony finger at the attacked israelis and say "how dare you win the battles we start" "how dare you push us out" when at the same time a larger amount of jews were being cleasned from the arab world is being dishonest...

So during ww2 the arabs supported hitler and helped to make "being a jew" impossible, and then refused to support the UN in 1948 in forming 2 states, then when those same arabs loose a bid to destroy israel and find that 700k of arabs have left the "ZIONIST" entities lands (100k stayed) and joined their brother arabs in judenfree lands of the arab world you now say, look at those bad israelis for emptying 600 arab villiages..

to f*cking bad.....

tell ya what c4, match up property loses from the jews in the arab world vrs those arabs in the jewish world and we have a solution, btw, in all those tapes from 1948 - 1964 never was the word "palestinian" uttered...

9/16/2005 06:50:00 AM  
Blogger shataqat said...

Cedarford,

Your tapes are fabrications; my family were there in Jerusalem, but they lost land because the Zionists didn't come fast enough to the West Bank and Maronites were preyed upon easily since they were such a small faction of Christians living in the Palestina (a geographic land and never a country). My extended family were slaughtered by the Palistos in Lebanon, that much I know since we have their remains buried in the places the Palistos attacked and still occupy.

Support of Islamic Palestine is support of Jihad, plain and simple. Your crocodile tears for Palestinian Christians is blatant opportunism to merely attack Jews. The invention/declaration of “Palestine” in 1965 was not only a beginning of a concerted war against the Zionists, but against all the non muslim minorities (recent majorities) of the Levant. It was and is a war against us the “sundays”as well- you fail to even see or admit that. You would defame all ME Christians, by bludgeoning the Jews with islamist and racist agitprop.

You are indeed that person I've seen years ago posting as Ranbuttan. Your Antisemitism is visceral, and rather linguistically repetitive, that much is obvious now. It's a wonder that you aren't banned here as well as Aces' and LGF. I wont help you drive your agenda with daily contrivances. I'm done communicating with you.

9/16/2005 10:04:00 PM  

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