Wednesday, September 07, 2005

Speechless in Gaza

Normally there is a certain amount of stealth involved in murder. The killers lie in wait in dark corners. The deed is done in the minimum time. In the case of a political assassination the triggermen often attempt a getaway, the better to protect the identity of their masters. But in the case of Moussa Arafat, former head of the Palestinian Liberation Authority's Gaza security operation, no effort was spared to make his death as brutal, public and pointed as possible. According to the New York Times:

Dozens of masked gunmen dragged a former Gaza security chief from his home early on Wednesday and killed him in the street ... gunmen, armed with rifles and anti-tank grenades, battled Mr. Arafat's guards for 30 minutes ... before storming the house and dragging him outside, where they shot him dead.

The manner of Mr. Arafat's death suggests his assailants didn't care who knew they were coming for him and were confident that the Palestinian authorities, in whom such touching confidence is reposed, would never intervene in time, if they had any intention of coming at all. Nor were they mistaken. After assaulting Arafat's home by main force they dragged him into the street for disposal -- probably to make a point. How many murders happen like that?

Not many. Unless you count gangland hits. Although the Times reports that "the police told news agencies that they were investigating a report that Mr. Arafat's son, Manhal, 29, considered a close aide, had been kidnapped in the raid" one gets the feeling that the dividing line between "militants" and security authorities of the Palestinian Authority -- the very same ones the International Community relies on to break the "cycle of violence" -- and criminals is a thin one indeed.

Update

I've learned via private email that this incident is the latest in a Series of Unfortunate Events. Hamas deployed significant forces to Gaza, together with attached media elements under their control to harry the withdrawal of Jews from the Neve Dekalim settlement,  once "the largest Jewish settlement in Gaza". This was followed up by a rocket attack from the northern Gaza strip at Israeli settlements within range. Reuters reported on September 6, "two rockets fired from the Gaza Strip slammed into southern Israel on Tuesday, after Israel killed a Palestinian cutting his way into a demolished Jewish settlement in Gaza ...". This was the day after an incident on the West Bank where "14 houses belonging to residents of the Arab Christian town of Taiba northeast of Ramallah, were torched by Muslims from neighboring Deir Jarir on Sunday, to avenge what they termed the dishonor of a Muslim woman."

There will be those who may take the view that these incidents are unavoidable bumps on the road to the eventual liberation of Arabs from the Israeli yoke, a road signposted by the UN-funded banners which read "Gaza Today. The West Bank and Jerusalem Tomorrow". The question of course, is what if they are not regrettable incidents, but events which characterize the new regime in Gaza? Many of those who rejoiced at Ernst Rohm's demise in the Night of the Long Knives comforted themselves by believing it was a case of one set of hoodlums rubbing out the other. It was true; but it was also irrelevant.

131 Comments:

Blogger Thunder Pig said...

I guess this means the primary season has begun for the Palestinians. Just imagine what Super Tuesday would look like...aaah!

9/07/2005 01:41:00 AM  
Blogger Sophia Phoster said...

It will be a good day when the Dome of the Rock becomes a Mediterranean sea wall.

9/07/2005 03:01:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Iraqi Politician Iyad Jamal Al-Din: The Arabs Want Tyrannical Regimes, in Line with Their Backward Culture .
The terrified and self-defeated Arab states, who fear the establishment of a democratic regime in Iraq, would prefer a stupid and reckless dictator like Saddam to a democratic regime in Iraq, because the epidemic of democracy and the winds of freedom will reach them, whether they like it or not.
[...]
Arab countries, especially those bordering with Iraq, can do a lot. We know that Saudi Arabia is also afflicted by terrorism. Many Arab countries are also afflicted by terrorism. But they are both the victim and the hangman at the same time. I was surprised when the crime in Sharm Al-Sheik occurred, those terrorist attacks. I followed the events on one of the Egyptian channels, and saw Egyptian intellectuals publicly justify terrorism, although the crime took place in their own country, and they were its victims. They said that this was the result of the Arab-Israeli conflict and the outcome of the situation in Iraq - as if we have nothing to do with terrorism and the culture of hatred. We produce terrorism.
. The Arabs Want Tyrannical Regimes

9/07/2005 03:45:00 AM  
Blogger wretchard said...

I would truly like to see the Palestinians succeed to become happy, prosperous people. For this to happen, two events must take place, in my simple minded estimation.

First. They must take possession of themselves. No nation can long endure under the leadership of thugs.

Second. They must come to some arrangement with Israel, as Israel must come to some arrangement with them. It is impossible, I think, to base a political program on the expectation of destroying a technologically advanced state with hundreds of nuclear weapons -- and expect to escape in the bargain.

For this reason, I am dismayed at the turn of events in Gaza. It's a train wreck. These kinds of gangland killings make it possible to ask 'See what concessions bring? Look what a fantasy peace with these criminals is!' And they would be right, after a fashion. It's a problem that has to be solved, though I can't think how it will be.

9/07/2005 04:14:00 AM  
Blogger Baron Bodissey said...

The origin of a functional state can often include the operations of groups indistinguishable from gangs, pirates, bands of thugs, etc. Remember that the Royal Navy began as a collection of pirates, euphemistically termed privateers. The Crown found them useful and licensed them, and they evolved into the Navy.

Gangs may gradually morph into militias, police forces, and armies, and the whole mass becomes organized and ordered by a central authority. The state is thus legitimized, and violence becomes the monopoly of state forces.

The questions concerning the PA are:

1. Is there a central organizing authority that can corral the thugs and convert them into agents of the state?

2. Is the society a self-organizing one? That is, will people naturally form a consensus around the nature of its important institutions, conferring legitimacy upon them and allowing the emergence of a native political order?

I have my doubts about both of these.

9/07/2005 04:28:00 AM  
Blogger Buffy said...

You can see that Palestinians can live and prosper outside of the arab countries, in the west. They do well generally, and seem happy. But underneath, if you know them well, even if they live near Jews and work with Jews, the undying hatred survives. They can't escape the hatred that imprisons them inside a murderous skin. If the pink sheep psychologists and psychiatrists can find a cure for that sickness, they would earn their keep.

9/07/2005 04:42:00 AM  
Blogger Jack Wayne said...

These are not criminals and the murders are not gangland killings. It is politics out of the barrel of a gun. What is more natural than Hamas taking over Gaza? I figure it will take only 2 months to get the PLO out. Then, 6 months for the West Bank. At that time, the Palestinians will have transited from Arafat to the collective Hamas leadership. It seems to me to be a pretty normal and predictive chain of events. I think 1 year from now that Israel will face a rising tide of violence as that is all Hamas brings to the table. Leaving Gaza was a good thing for Israel to do. Hamas will be fish in a barrel when they try the next intifada. I also expect frustration to rise as Hamas plunges the "country" into bad shape. So bad that Hamas will likely be forced to directly attack Israel in a couple of years. Maybe with Iran's help?

9/07/2005 05:01:00 AM  
Blogger Sophia Phoster said...

The Palestinian "situation" is the most effective public relations campaign in modern history. You could throw a dart at a spinning globe and hit a territorial conflict that dwarfs the Palestinian claims by geometric magnitudes. African Christians currently being murdered wholesale by Muslim despots would be lucky to get 1% of the attention.

The common use of the buzz words "Palestinian refugee camp" for established, normally functioning villages and urban neighborhoods, "occupied territories" for every sliver of land trod by a Jew, and "freedom fighter" for mass murderer are continuing evidence of its success.

Who wouldn't like to see everything work itself out peacefully but overwhelming historical forces make that outcome a dream state. Why not take Hamas, Islmaic Jihad, Fatah, and Iranian sponsored Hizbu'allah at their word - they exist to exterminate Jews, Christians and other non-believers from any territory they make claim to?

Sometimes you just have to take sides.

9/07/2005 05:11:00 AM  
Blogger Eleanor © said...

This isn't rocket science. The "Palestinian situation" is the localized name for the relentless push of Islamic triumphalism that Muslims are determined to impose upon the rest of us. We must face up to the fact that sooner or later every other locality will have the same "situation."

9/07/2005 05:19:00 AM  
Blogger Goesh said...

First I am surprised this is even being reported in light of the Western media refusing to address the summary trials, executions and public mutilations of suspected collaberators that have occured in Gaza and the West Bank. The numbers of these executions and mutilations will never be known to outsiders. Secondly, it must be nice to be a member of a terrorist organization such as hamas and be exempt from the larger war on terrorism. The dictatorship of Arafat is being replaced with that of hamas. Let them wallow as such then and remain a bloody back-water of facism. Will Israel maintain the infrastructure once they withdraw? Will they continue to provide free medical care to the palestinians and hamas supporters who continue to assert that Israel does not have the right to exist? I'm sure the answer is yes and that means that some of my tax dollars given to Israel will provide aid to a group, hamas, that is deemed to be a terrorist organization.

9/07/2005 05:21:00 AM  
Blogger wretchard said...

The BBC is suggesting that Arafat's killers were:

"a fringe group, consisting mainly of dissident or breakaway members of the mainstream Fatah movement and former Palestinian security officials"

Nice to know that it's safe to pass the hat around again for the Palestinian cause. But at the minimum, one should ask the same questions about the PLA that were eventually asked about the IRA and about ETA: namely, is the left funding a solution or a problem?

Year by year one is led to hope that this 'moderate' leader and that 'peace-loving' faction will take charge. Critics speak of the lack of "metrics" in Iraq. Well what are the metrics to judge progress on this issue? I don't mean lines on the ground, but in terms of changes in the political culture. Surely lines on the ground will mean nothing if the political culture remains toxic.

9/07/2005 05:39:00 AM  
Blogger Dan said...

Amen, Sophia. Sometimes you just have to take sides - and destroy the Dome of the Rock. The ancient problems don't go away simply because one learns revolutionary socialism in high school.

Decapitate Syria now, without announcements, like a real country would: let us see what war looks like compared to the "peace."

9/07/2005 05:43:00 AM  
Blogger RWE said...

A question for some time has been what kind of state the Palistinians could form given their attitudes and inclinations. Yasser Arafat, rather than teaching the Palestinians that they could push the Jews into the sea, taught them to become completely disfunctional.
In WWII, when told about the plans for Kamikaze attacks, the Japanese military did not rejoice but instead were horrified. The great ace, Saburo Saki, was given the job of escorting one of the first attacks but instead led everyone back home, where they were all greeted with relief. Contrast this with the Palestinians dressing their babies up in simulated suicide bomber costumes.

9/07/2005 05:44:00 AM  
Blogger Baron Bodissey said...

Wretchard, I hate to say this, but the metric is the number of dead Jews. More Jews killed? More Israeli concessions are required! Israel then gives more concessions: that's progress.

We count the steps of the "peace process" by the number of dead Jews.

9/07/2005 05:46:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

wretchard said First. They must take possession of themselves. No nation can long endure under the leadership of thugs.

The sad truth is the "palestinians" are not a natural tribe or people, they are a myth created by Egypt Secret Police and Egyptians (arafat) as a tool of Egyptian Policy. (after all the 1st attack by the PLO was in 1966 on Israel's national water carrier) History will prove this to be, you cannot force nationhood on people who infact are not a nation. The term "palestine" and palestinian was used referring to JEWS for almost 1300 years before arafat successfully coop'd the term (and did quite a good job at it)

To understand the mentality of the arabs of gaza and the west bank "clans" comes to mind not the stuff of nation states, more like the crips and bloods with billions of petro dollars and weapons. Just as the world looks to masses of population in N Korea, Iraq (pre-invasion) and other despot run countries to rise up and to "throw the bums out" it is not a given. The "palestinian" people have been brain washed for 40 years to believe in the death cult the world has supported. Can you really blame the palestinians? The United Nations, the Arab League (created to be supportive of the palestinians) the USSR, EU, China, Unaligned Movement of Nations have all (and still do) support the just cause of murdering every man, woman and child that lives within the state of Israel as they are potential solders (since military service is manditory).


wretchard: Second. They must come to some arrangement with Israel, as Israel must come to some arrangement with them. It is impossible, I think, to base a political program on the expectation of destroying a technologically advanced state with hundreds of nuclear weapons -- and expect to escape in the bargain.

But the escape is what the world has promised and also forced Israel to allow... The Palestinians do not see the world post 9/11, Madrid, London, they still are in the middle of a death cult orgy, as we speak thousand of "palestinian freedom fighters" are making their way to gaza for join the battle to be!

The difference is, whereas saddam played the war games in chess dimension and the USA played in 6 additional dimensions at the same time, the palestinians are playing checkers with the Israelis. The gaza strip is a small area, it's water & electricity is supplied by ISRAEL, the Freedom Fighters expect the world to support their attacks and to not allow israel to respond....

can we say it's time for a military solution?

9/07/2005 05:48:00 AM  
Blogger wretchard said...

The curious thing is that, shades of 1984, the old Arafat administration is now being referred to by the BBC as the "corrupt old guard". When he was alive, Arafat was described in hagiographic terms. But "Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia" except that I had forgotten.

Well, is the metric the number of Jews dead, as Baron says? Then the gong should go to Hitler or is the Left embarassed to award it to him?

9/07/2005 05:50:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

image this in detroit.. 5 dead and 38 wounded (mostly women and children)

Palestinians blame Gaza blast on Hamas explosives
07 September 2005


GAZA: A blast that tore through the home of a Gaza family active in the Hamas militant group, killing four people, was caused by explosives that went off accidentally, the Palestinian Authority said.

9/07/2005 05:57:00 AM  
Blogger Sophia Phoster said...

Yusuf Abu Sneina, Imam of Al-Aqsa Mosque

"Anyone who watches closely the nature of our world today, can see that the heretical countries - first and foremost, the USA - have succeeded greatly in tearing our Islamic world apart by disintegrating and splitting up more than one Islamic state, intending to weaken it, disperse [its citizens] and plunder its resources. It is terrorism, and there's no choice but to fight it. (Hat tip to JihadWatch.com)

This is the Palestinina Authority response after getting a $50 million check from Uncle Sugar. I think that Americans are less than enthusiastic about the GWOT not because there is too much war but because there is too little. The politician who promises to wield the Terrible Swift Sword will have my vote and I expect the majority as well.

9/07/2005 06:00:00 AM  
Blogger Baron Bodissey said...

Well, Wretch, when the "Palestinians" get their "state", expect that Hitler's portrait will occupy an honored position on the wall alongside Arafat's in all the offices of the bureaucracy.

Though exactly what the bureaucracy will administer is hard to imagine.

9/07/2005 06:10:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050904/wl_mideast_afp/mideastpalestiniangazafactions_050904223945

In Gaza, a young man's stunt sparks militant rumble

RAFAH, Gaza Strip (AFP) - It could have been Detroit or London. Teenagers fighting over sneakers and a nasty look. But this was Rafah, one of the world's grimmest border towns, where a young man's grudge could drag families and militias to war and rattle society's very foundations.

It started when 29-year-old Sidqi Barbakh revved the wheels of his blue Mercedes, spewing dirt in the faces of Hamas militants manning a night-time checkpoint.

(((notice what the "young man" was driving!")))

armed Hamas militants vowed to hunt him down.

Both sides fell back on their connections. Barbakh leaned on his status as an intelligence agent in the Palestinian Authority and his tribal ties with his 15,000 strong clan that flaunts a reputation for never steering away from a fight.

"Every party depends on big families to support their cause," says local Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoom.

According to tradition, Barbakh's family sent an emissary to the aggrieved Hamas members' relatives with a formal apology, but it was not enough.

The Hamas members jumped a car a few days later carrying someone they thought was Barbakh, whom they proceeded to beat.

Tuesday morning at 2:00 am, the Hamas militants hunting Barbakh for a week pumped 12 shots into his car

Within minutes, a car of gunmen sprayed bullets into the home of Hamas' political leader in Rafah, Issa al-Nashar, but wounded no one in the house.


typical gazan democracy at it's finest..

9/07/2005 06:20:00 AM  
Blogger Goesh said...

I've said it before, it's the same old gestapo, just in a different time and in a different language. The assertion by hamas that Israel does not have a right to exist is nothing other than Juden raus spoken in arabic.

9/07/2005 07:02:00 AM  
Blogger StoutFellow said...

The curious thing is that, shades of 1984, the old Arafat administration is now being referred to by the BBC as the "corrupt old guard".

Perhaps the BBC is pooh-poohing the Arafats as 'old guard' because the extermination of the Jews and the establishment of an Arab Palestinian nation is no longer a lofty enough goal.

The new guard, of course, wants much more, namely the establishment of the Global Caliphate. It was General Arafat's mistake to take a stand against those whose ultimate goal is to subject us all to life under Shariah law.

As chief of military intelligence in the 1990s, Gen Arafat earned a reputation for ruthlessness.

He was involved in a 1996 crackdown on Hamas and Islamic Jihad militants, when he shaved the heads and beards of detainees as a form of humiliation.


Perhaps the most frightening thing on this thread thus far, is the treatment by the Daily Telegraph of Hitler's actions against his loyal German officers (in Wretchard's long knives link).

Herr Adolf Hitler, the German Chancellor, has saved his country. Swiftly and with exorable severity, he has delivered Germany from men who had become a danger to the unity of the German people and to the order of the state. With lightening rapidity he has caused them to be removed from high office, to be arrested, and put to death.
The names of the men who have been shot by his orders are already known. Hitler's love of Germany has triumphed over private friendships and fidelity to comrades who had stood shoulder to shoulder with him in the fight for Germany's future.

Daily Mail, July 2nd 1934.



Wow, talking about carrying your enemy's water.

9/07/2005 07:25:00 AM  
Blogger Doug Santo said...

Unavoidable bumps indeed. I believe one benefit of the Israelis’ withdrawal from Gaza is that Western apologists and left media will find it increasingly difficult to explain away Palestinian deprivations. As the Palestinians take political and physical control of Gaza the world will quickly know what direction the Palestinians will go. Will they form a moderate democratic government interested in improving the lives of its citizens, or will Hamas or some other terrorist group take control, suppress the population, impose martial law, and commence attacking Israel?

If it is the latter, what excuse will Western apologists have – failed American policy?

Doug Santo
Pasadena, CA

9/07/2005 07:27:00 AM  
Blogger Baron Bodissey said...

Concerning the Night of the Long Knives (June 30, 1934) --

A recent theory has it that Hitler's urgent need to eliminate Ernst Röhm was more than just a political calculation to remove a source of rival power.

Röhm was a notorious homosexual, as were many of his minions in the SA. His association with Hitler went all the way back to the Western Front in WW1.

Some historians now believe that Hitler, as well as Röhm, consorted with "nancy boys" in the dugouts on the front. Later, when he had reached the pinnacle of power and visibility, Hitler felt the need to silence one of the few witnesses to his shameful behavior in the war (supposedly other lesser fellows were bought off and/or intimidated).

If true, this gives him yet another similarity to Arafat.

9/07/2005 07:40:00 AM  
Blogger iotm said...

The example of how to operate a state and how to deal with your political enemies for Palestinians comes from those who are occupying them, the Israelis. Violent and brutal political assasination is standard policy with the Israelis, when Palestinian factions who aren't associated with the government emulate this you criticize them as barbarians, yet have no complaints when the Israeli government undertakes such killings as an official policy. Instead racist claims are made about the natural brutality of Arab-Muslims. More hypocrisy, racism, and moral ambigularity from you guys.

9/07/2005 07:51:00 AM  
Blogger Doug Santo said...

From the bottom of my soul I tell you I want the Palestinians to succeed. I believe the majority of the Palestinians desire a peaceful coexistence with Israel. The problem is the fanatical minority born and bred through Arafat and appeasing Western (read European) politicians. Until this minority is denied power, no successful outcome is possible. To deny the minority power means internecine armed conflict – Palestinian civil war. I think this reality must be faced. The moderate majority must defeat the fanatical minority and take control of their future.

Doug Santo
Pasadena, CA

9/07/2005 07:54:00 AM  
Blogger Martian said...

iotm

ambigularity

is that the state of both arms being 'gularitous'?

Tool.

9/07/2005 08:37:00 AM  
Blogger exhelodrvr said...

Doug Santo,

"I believe the majority of the Palestinians desire a peaceful coexistence with Israel."

That same line of thinking could apply to the entire Muslim world; unfortunately, I don't think it is accurate. I used to agree that that was the mindset of the average Muslim, but I have come to believe that it is actually a small minority who desire peaceful coexistence. A fanatical minority actively seeks the destruction of the West (including Israel in that) and the great majority support that fanatical minority. I think that the best we can hope for is that over the span of 2-3 generations that "great majority" will gradually turn away from the "fanatical minority." Until then, hopefully we can keep them in place through fear.

9/07/2005 08:41:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Stoutfellow said,
"Wow, talking about carrying your enemy's water."
---
So, how do you rate it on a scale of 1-10,
10 being = to CNN's treatment of
Democrat Leadership Skills
(W's incompetences/hatred of Blacks)
during Katrina?
---
How does Bibi fit into this story?

9/07/2005 08:44:00 AM  
Blogger james wilson said...

Wretchard, I began to understand some years ago that Arafat won. I do not know if it was by design or accident, and the act of winning in this case would not be desirable by our standards, but the dye is cast. The Palistinian Arab was, in spite of everything, once seen correctly as relatively industrious and upwardly mobile, in Israel proper or out. Those that emmigrated did well and were expected to do well. Arafat, with the considerable help of Western liberals, changed the Palestinian culture into what it is now, and to its core. That is not reversable but by death, or total Israeli victory. Critical mass has long since been passed. Israeli's will not do to Palestinians what Palestinians will do to Israeli's, ever. So, Israeli's will eventually leave but for the proportion of Orthodox who will die there. How many Israeli's do not have a bolt hole right now? Which raises the question, what are we doing with our Johnsons hanging out in an untenable dynamic that can cause us no gain but much harm? Yes, we are well judged by what we do when there is no gain but in being decent or rightious, but we have done this for fifty years and with no resolution in sight but the one I see coming. I welcome being corrected from my pessimistic views.

9/07/2005 08:49:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

ex helo said,
"the great majority support that fanatical minority."
---
Agree,
I hope you are wrong about 2-3 generations.
Hope springs eternal.
Could a masculine foreign policy elevate this hope to become a reality?

9/07/2005 08:49:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Murder, assassination and thuggery abound in the MidEast

If Leaders in the ME moderate and move towards reconciliation, they are killed by their own "Tribes" extremists.

This type of 'Political Dialogue' runs from the grassroots to the pinnacles of power

Ask Begin or Sadat.
A lovely region indeed.

9/07/2005 08:52:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Sophia Phoster said...
The Palestinian "situation" is the most effective public relations campaign in modern history.
---
James Wilson said...
The Palistinian Arab was, in spite of everything, once seen correctly as relatively industrious and upwardly mobile, in Israel proper or out.
Those that emmigrated did well and were expected to do well.
Arafat, with the considerable help of Western liberals, changed the Palestinian culture into what it is now, and to its core.
That is not reversable but by death, or total Israeli victory. Critical mass has long since been passed. Israeli's will not do to Palestinians what Palestinians will do to Israeli's, ever.
---
I say, let's not leave out specifics,
like France,
JC (Carter)
Bubba and Hillary,
and the UN.
(Not to exclude all the rest that James includes.)

9/07/2005 08:58:00 AM  
Blogger Nathan said...

Apparently knocking off terrorist leaders is considered "political assassination". After all, National Socialism, Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas, Global Caliphate, they're all just political movements.

Give the political movement that politically assassinates its own people in addition to the Zionist enemy a state!

9/07/2005 08:58:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Will the MSM portray Bibi as 'Outside the Mainstream' and Sharon as the 'Peace Maker'

Meanwhile the Gaza 'street' holds it's own elections, it will be interesting to see who the last man standing will be.

9/07/2005 09:01:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

'Rat,
Is Bibi as bad as W, or his judicial nominees?

9/07/2005 09:04:00 AM  
Blogger Nathan said...

Let's all just sit on our hands, so we won't be morally ambiguous racist hypocrites anymore. Then everybody will love us and the world will be a better place!

9/07/2005 09:05:00 AM  
Blogger Nathan said...

Indian people are brown. Since we're morally ambiguous racist hypocrites, let's go politically assassinate and bomb them and occupy their country and steal their natural resources!

9/07/2005 09:10:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Nathan,
Cool!

9/07/2005 09:10:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

iotm said...
The example of how to operate a state and how to deal with your political enemies for Palestinians comes from those who are occupying them, the Israelis.

iotm, if that were the case, israel could take a page from syria and simply murder 10,000 in one day period (hama, syria population zero) or Jordan "Black September" treatment, the Palestinians have 21 other arab nations to base thier behavior on, and quite frankly, they have learned from the arab world, not the israelis..

iotm: Violent and brutal political assasination is standard policy with the Israelis

actually no, "political assasination" is not practiced, military assasination is... otherwise why did the israelis NOT murder arafat in his HQ?

iotm: when Palestinian factions who aren't associated with the government emulate this you criticize them as barbarians, yet have no complaints when the Israeli government undertakes such killings as an official policy.

no, i embrace palestinians loving on another with bullets....

iotm: Instead racist claims are made about the natural brutality of Arab-Muslims. More hypocrisy, racism, and moral ambigularity from you guys.

is it not racist to claim that the israelis are naturally violent as you do?


please iotm, go live with your loving palestinians i am sure they will embrace you as a brother of love...

9/07/2005 09:14:00 AM  
Blogger Annoy Mouse said...

There is no honor in murder.
The operation described is akin to death squad tactics, tactics that are meant to impress one with the wrath and fury of revenge. Eliminating an inconvenience is done in the shadows, the brutal killing was intended to evoke terror in those who might cross such men.

A new thug is in town and you shall know his wrath.

Hamas struggles to put the boot on the neck of the average Palestinian, in time when they have sufficiently terrorized the Pali’s, they will turn their malignant talents on Israel knowing they have the support of other Arab states. The ensuing bloodbath will likely raise the collective ire of Europeans who will decry that Israel has once again broken their own peace treaty.

The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

9/07/2005 09:14:00 AM  
Blogger Dan said...

Let us please for the love of God withdraw all funding and contact outright, immediately, and have this matter peak. Stringing it along year in and out does nothing but destroy both sides like a virus. Please: these modern politics are loathesome. It would be a hundred blessings to visit true outright purgative war on these recalcitrant populations who can do nothing but fail, enslave themeselves, and aspire to nothing but the petty machismo of the tribe and their apotheosis Muhammad, who can accomplish nothing more glorious than the warfare inside what is essentially an intellectual and diplomatic refugee camp - a CHARITY, for God's sake - or glorified street mafia terrorism or thug academia, whose victim is innocent, defenseless memory as remembered to the mostly amnesiac or monomaniacal. C'mon, this is just completely NUTS. If you think I'm some sort of racist or bigot, then you're an idiot. This is not the oft-invoked Malay insurgency - this is the Mahdi army of late 19th century fame. This festering is disgusting. Let us retire the diplomats and their talking for a year.

9/07/2005 09:17:00 AM  
Blogger Dave H said...

Pork, what say you to James Wilson's views that the Israeli's lack the will to do unto the Paletinians, what the Palestinian's will do to them. This does not square with my observations of Israel or my American Jewish friends, but to a large degree I am an outsider looking in.

9/07/2005 09:20:00 AM  
Blogger Doug Santo said...

One other comment peripherally related to this topic.

I read an article in the recent edition of Commentary magazine by Nidra Poller. The article is “Myth, Fact, and the al-Dura Affair”. It describes the circumstances surrounding the media-driven claim that Israeli soldiers shot and killed a 12 year old boy. This event was televised world-wide in September 2000 and some claim the event was the causal agent of the al-Aqsa intifada. The article is free and may be found at:

http://www.commentarymagazine.com

Please read this article. It sheds important light on the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians and the coverage that western media gives this struggle.

I am a critic of western media, but this article blew me away. It is fair to say now that I despise western media and reject much of its reporting as not worthy of consideration from a serious observer. To get valid information one has to search it out and verify it through several sources. One cannot simply trust media reports to be accurate.

Doug Santo
Pasadena, CA

9/07/2005 09:21:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

How does MOTI "think," connect "facts,"
and yet always avoid any truth?
Is it his moral ambigularity?
hmmm

9/07/2005 09:22:00 AM  
Blogger Dan said...

And I agree, exhelo - this is not a minority sentiment among Arabs and Muslims. It may be that it is only manifest in a public way to our media-eye, but it is surely as general as the bitching in New Orleans is in that community. To say otherwise is mere ignorance, as I also was once affected by. The deference they show to "human rights" and the discourse of the contemporary Western political spectrums is the deference of a servant to a master, and at best a pupil to a teacher. It by no means reflects a true commity of opinion. And why is this, O multiculturalists and international etiquette mongers? Because they are a profoundly different culture! Why would it be any other way? The media must stop filtering everything through its pathetic etiquette protocols, like a mother scolding her small son for saying something true that she didn't want the offended adult to think, for social purposes, that reflected her own opinion.

Please. More war, less talking, which is clearly as inaccurate as it is ineffective.

O hey - who won in Egypt today? Ah. Mubarak. Should've put $100 down in Vegas, but I doubt they were taking those bets.

9/07/2005 09:23:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Doug Santo,
Have not read your link yet:
Can only say that I was temporarily caught up in the MSM story line,
"my compassion for others,"
took me on a brief trip back into unthoughtout
"Moral Outrage!"
Very Mainstream of me!
(In the 60's, it would have been very radical of me.)
Times do change.

9/07/2005 09:30:00 AM  
Blogger exhelodrvr said...

I do have one question for everyone (sorry if it has already been asked.)

Was anyone surprised by this? Disappointed, definitely. But surprised?

9/07/2005 09:32:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Dan said,
"like a mother scolding her small son for saying something true that she didn't want the offended adult to think, for social purposes, reflected her own opinion. "
---
No more likely to result in truth than a MOTI Monkey and a Keyboard.
---
(But could mess with the son's mind for years.)

9/07/2005 09:36:00 AM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

We *knew* this was coming, the instant Sharon announced his withdrawal plan: that the Palestinians would devolve into civil war, killing each other. When you have a culture that's built upon a basis of hatred, murder and revenge, and you withdraw the normal (Jewish) victims, then that culture must necessarily turn upon itself.

Wretchard is a good guy in his hope that the Palestinians will somehow manage to grow up and become adult enough to build instead of destroy. But if they have no such adult role models among them, how can they?

What will happen is that the Israeli's will withdraw behind their walls, the plighted Pal's will kill each other with gusto and innovation while the UN and the world's media watches out of the corner of their eyes fluttering their hands every once in a while in little "don't" semiphores, and eventually when enough of the testosterone poisoned Palestinian men have died, the left-over old men, young boys and women will have emigrated elsewhere, and what will be left is a haunted monument to "intifada" and futility.

Think IRA -- and how happy and prosperous *those* battles have made the Irish people.

Personally, I'm really looking forward to the coming blood-bath of Palestinian wannabe martyrs suddenly becoming dead at each other's hands (and by "work accidents" as they blow themselves up). I figure they say they all want to die anyway, so what difference does it make who does the actual killing?

9/07/2005 09:41:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Are we all properly impressed by the obduracy of the MSM story line in the face of ugly facts on the ground recently with regards to Katrina or "Palestine"?
T-Shirt:
Don't F... w/the Storyline!

9/07/2005 09:44:00 AM  
Blogger Dan said...

Exhelo - New Orleans? Yes, I was surprised. I'm used to New York blackout conditions, and live a lot by hearsay, like everyone else, I figured a New York City with its reputation + a blackout would yield gang warfare if anything would. I also sort of expected that a mass disaster - that was also resolved fairly quickly - would thus not lead to the triumph of brutality so quickly. I think the misfortune, from the point of view of comfort in the world, is that I will no longer be surprised.

9/07/2005 09:50:00 AM  
Blogger Nathan said...

O iotm, rescue the poor brown Muslims from their evil white Zionist oppressors!

9/07/2005 09:58:00 AM  
Blogger exhelodrvr said...

Dan,
In the "surprised" question I was referring to Gaza. I was unpleasantly surprised by the almost complete failure of the locals in New Orleans.

9/07/2005 10:38:00 AM  
Blogger kstagger said...

During the last two decades, almost a million Muslims slaughtered each other in a war between Iraq and Iran; 100,000 Muslims and Christians butchered each other in Lebanon; 20,000 Arabs were murdered by their own countrymen in Syria. And what is more, after ravaging Kuwait, his Arab neighbor, the Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein won the support of Israel's own Arab citizens despite his threat to incinerate them along with the Jews! All this bloodshed is done in the name of a religious doctrine which thinly adorns a hard core of evil aggressiveness.

-- Prof. Paul Eidelberg

9/07/2005 10:51:00 AM  
Blogger kstagger said...

for some reason, this reminded me of IOTM

"Marxism incorporates, at the verbal level and the intellectual level, the values of liberal democracy in its assault on liberal democracy and this is precisely why it entraps so many Western intellectuals who are themselves serious liberal democrats. Thus the slightest restriction on, let's say, the presumption of innocence of the accused is said to demonstrate the absence of the rule of law. The slightest failure of an electoral system demonstrates contempt for political equality. Any use of force in international affairs establishes the lawless character of the society. Now, it is a short step from having demonstrated that a country like the United States is not a law-abiding society to demonstrating that it is lost and that it is like any other lawless society."

"The totalitarian ideology, of which Marxism is the supreme example in our times, makes truth a function of power which is finally enforced by terror. Truth and reality are continually readjusted to serve the purposes of power at any given time. This is the reason that in 1984, history is continually re-written. It isn't just rewritten once; it's re-written on a daily basis. And it is rewritten from week to week and year to year to fit the requirements of the moment. Words, relationships, and events are redefined, and reality becomes a sub-category of politics."


http://www.libertyhaven.com/theoreticalorphilosophicalissues/libertarianism/mythmoral.shtml

9/07/2005 10:57:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

-- 7% said state and local officials in Louisiana have done a "great" job in "responding to the hurricane and subsequent flooding"; 30% said "good"; 23% said "neither good nor bad"; 20% said "bad"; 15% said "terrible"; 5% had no opinion.
---
7% would be hard core...
?

9/07/2005 10:58:00 AM  
Blogger kstagger said...

oops - that links should be:
Moral Equivalence

9/07/2005 10:59:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

"reality becomes a sub-category of politics."

9/07/2005 10:59:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

7% believe in little green men, women, and children, oppressed by Bush, if their politics demand it.

9/07/2005 11:01:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

Wislon said: Arafat won. I do not know if it was by design or accident

by design...

Wislon: The Palistinian Arab was relatively industrious and upwardly mobile, in Israel proper or out.

yep...

Wislon: Arafat, with the help of Western liberals, changed the Palestinian culture

dont under count the arab world's support, the ussr & india

Wislon: That is not reversable but by death, or total Israeli victory. Critical mass has long since been passed. Israeli's will not do to Palestinians what Palestinians will do to Israeli's, ever.

My personal point, so what Israel cannot do to the Palestinians, allow the Palestinians to do to each other..

Wilson: So, Israeli's will eventually leave but for the proportion of Orthodox who will die there.

I see it different, the fence and the disengagement will not force Israelis to leave, but to divorce the Arabs, then the arabs will back flow into the arab world (and eurabia) .taking with them thier values and culture, already you see it in iraq and saudia arabia.. The virus of islamic/palestinian behavior is now infecting the very host body that supported it, the world in a very short time will have to decide on it's future. In the mean time, Israel will wall off into Fortess Israel, not to make a prison out of Gaza, but to not allow palestinians INTO the Nation of Israel...

9/07/2005 11:03:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

OT, but SO much a part of the problem:
"Dems Assail White House on Katrina Effort,.
Congress' top two Democrats furiously criticized the administration's response to Hurricane Katrina on Wednesday, with Sen. Harry Reid demanding to know whether President Bush's Texas vacation impeded relief efforts and Rep. Nancy Pelosi assailing the chief executive as "oblivious, in denial" about the difficulties."

9/07/2005 11:08:00 AM  
Blogger Dan said...

Ex -

Ah right - then no, I wasn't surprised by Palestinian infighting. I think it's the norm there; it's tribal peace, after all. And so on. A mess.

9/07/2005 11:20:00 AM  
Blogger Common Cents said...

Doug,

I demand to know if Harry Reid's stroke impaired his thinking ability forcing him to waste the time of real people doing real work.

This is something Congress should investigate.

9/07/2005 11:24:00 AM  
Blogger StoutFellow said...

Doug,
How does Bibi fit into this story?


Just guessing, but he gives the order to eliminate Iran's nuclear weapons capability?

A more immediate question might be, how do Iran and Hezbollah fit into this story? The answer is that they can't allow Palestinian statehood to stand in the way of the Global Jihad. This is not about nation states, it's about Islamic totalitarian ideology. Submit and be free.

9/07/2005 11:39:00 AM  
Blogger iotm said...

Just the other day in an assasination the Israeli government killed 5 people. 2 are reportedly to be "sympathetic" to "terrorist organizations", and three were simply kids. The kids were unarmed, there are conflicting reports about whether the 2 who were targetted were unarmed.

Now this is worse because this is official government business of assasinating political enemies. It's not just thugs aspiring for power like in Palestine, it's the government doing it.

I'm not claiming Israelis are inherently violent in the least. The vast majority want peace, the biggest supporters of Zionism are Americans, not Israelis. I don't claim that all Jews are evil and violent by nature like you lot. Your claims are racist, mine are stating simple facts. I find it incredibly hypocritical that you'd not talk about Israel's official policy of doing this.

This relativistic morality needs to stop. An act isn't good or bad based on whether or not one of the US's puppets or enemies is diong it. This article and the responses are nothing but a thinly veiled racist attack on Muslim-Arabs.

What's next for Belmont Club, posts about how black people are evil for looting, but white people are heroes for acting resourcefully and salvaging things? How do you not implode from these massive logical contradictions in your basic beliefs?

9/07/2005 11:48:00 AM  
Blogger Rick Ballard said...

Looks like they got the son, too.

I keep trying to pick a side in this contest but I think I'll wait for further forthright and forceful exchanges of views before doing so. The Palis have sure perfected their debating skills. The thought of Pali kids eagerly anticipating their chance to cast their first bullet is heartwarming.

9/07/2005 11:51:00 AM  
Blogger Andrew said...

Sharon's decision to pull out of Gaza was seen by most as a 'coming to his senses' type of moment. I wonder if there's something else going on. I keep seeing headlines like this:
From Yesterday's Washington Times:
EGYPT VOWS TO BUILD A PALESTINIAN GAZA
By John Phillips
From Debka:
Sharon Secretly Rewards Egypt with Naval Control of Gaza’s Territorial Waters up to Ashkelon
(and a whole bunch of others in Debka)

Question:
Did Sharon give Gaza to Egypt while nobody noticed? Is Israel and Egypt working together to ensure that Gaza *never* comes under independent Palestinian control?

If that's the case, well, I certainly can't imagine a Palestinian State that doesn't include Gaza, can anyone else?

Is Israel secretly planning to have Jordan take over parts of the West Bank as well?

There may be no such thing as a 'Palestinian' in 20 years.

9/07/2005 12:14:00 PM  
Blogger Dave H said...

Pork, you say the wall etc will shut out Palestinians from Israel. Maybe, but aren't there enough Israeli Muslims, that given the differing birth rates, have the potential for disaster down the road? Does not Israel need to rid itself of this population of Muslims to survive long term? Can they be subsidized to leave? Surely clear sighted people cam see that the current population mix is not viable. Have you heard any speculation about possible solutions?

9/07/2005 12:43:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

dave h said,
"Have you heard any speculation about possible solutions? "
---
Free settlements and provisions in a scooped out bowl beneath sea level?

9/07/2005 01:09:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Surprised you fell for any of this, Rick:
Most of us realize he died of EPD.
(Extreme Plaque Disorder)

9/07/2005 01:22:00 PM  
Blogger Dave H said...

Doug, no need of scooped out areas. Egypt itself sits under the Aswan Dam, you only need to persuade everyone to move to Cairo.

9/07/2005 01:36:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

Iotm: Just the other day in an assasination the Israeli government killed 5 people. 2 are reportedly to be "sympathetic" to "terrorist organizations", and three were simply kids. The kids were unarmed, there are conflicting reports about whether the 2 who were targetted were unarmed.

please provide some details

9/07/2005 01:53:00 PM  
Blogger Nathan said...

Just the other day in an assasination the Israeli government killed 5 people.

Link please.

This relativistic morality needs to stop.

I don't think that word means what you think it means. In all seriousness, I believe you have a serious misunderstanding of what moral relativism is, and this is at least one of the major obstacles to an understanding between you and the other readers here. I tried to help you by posting links to the definition of the term and a discussion of its meaning, but evidently you did not read these, or you did not understand them. If you expect us to listen to you please do you part to facilitate communication.

An act isn't good or bad based on whether or not one of the US's puppets or enemies is diong it.

Obviously not. The justification for moral pluralism is that the righteousness of any act depends on what the causes and consequences of the act are, regardless of the moral system under which the act is committed. This presupposes that an act can be righteous, as opposed to moral relativism, which forbids any moral judgment outside of an individual moral system when multiple moral systems exist, thus equalizing all moral systems. Virtually all ideological conflicts have actualized moral pluralism; they have judged that certain moral systems are inferior to their own and have acted to suppress those moral systems. A Western justification for actualizing moral pluralism upon Muslims is that Islam does not value certain things, such as life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, esteemed by the West; a Muslim justification for actualizing moral pluralism upon Westerners is that we do not value certain things that they value, such as death, subservience to Allah, and the pursuit of death. As each infringes upon the other's respective values, violent conflict is inevitable until either moral system is fundamentally changed through conquest or compromise.

How do you not implode from these massive logical contradictions in your basic beliefs?

Case in point. Your moral system is clearly different from mine- I believe that you are the one suffering "massive logical contradictions" in your "basic beliefs". In essence I hold my moral system to be superior. Neither of us seems willing to compromise our belief systems in order to accomodate the other despite however righteous the other believes himself to be. Yet we persist; a plurality that holds your moral system threatens my own, and, likewise, a plurality that holds my moral system threatens yours. Therefore we seek to alter the plurality by force of persuasion- conquest rather than compromise. But this is largely a futile effort, as your continued presence and uncompromised ideology shows.

9/07/2005 01:58:00 PM  
Blogger Sophia Phoster said...

Andrew

Egypt and Jordan made peace with Israel after the 1973 war. The annihilation of the surrounded and defeated Egyptian army in the Sinai was on the table in Israel and it was a close thing. Sadat had the good sense to recognize that the stakes for a future loser had been raised to an unacceptable level. Israel tried to position Egypt into governning Gaza during those negotiations. Egypt refused citing the Gaza issue as a deal breaker and Israel relented.

I do not believe that a long term solution is possible so long as there exists a Palestinian ruled Gaza. And that assumes the emergence of a non-Islmaist Palestinian government in Gaza. I do not believe there is any historical precedent for long-term success of a single nation whose parts were separated by a foreign sovereign. Israel could never allow unification of the Gaza and West Bank because that would split Israel, and even reasonable Palestinians would never accept foreign territory running through the middle of their country.

It would seem that a future Palestinian state would have to consist of either Gaza or some portion of the West Bank but never both.

9/07/2005 01:58:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

dave h: Pork, you say the wall etc will shut out Palestinians from Israel. Maybe, but aren't there enough Israeli Muslims, that given the differing birth rates, have the potential for disaster down the road?

Israeli arabs which number about 25% have chosen to be israeli. It is VERY rare for these israeli citizens to do violence. (it aint perfect) If asked if they would want to migrate or become part of the new "palestine" they refuse (that is why the jerusalem arab population fears the splitting of the city and the PA to secure areas of Jerusalem and refuse to vote in PA elections)

David h: Does not Israel need to rid itself of this population of Muslims to survive long term?

nope

David H: Can they be subsidized to leave? Surely clear sighted people cam see that the current population mix is not viable. Have you heard any speculation about possible solutions?

I predict the moslem populations of the world will have trouble living amongst western countries and many will be forced to return to their homelands. The peaceful arab population of israel will continue to live, work and succeed at far greater rates than anything in the arab world.

9/07/2005 01:59:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

So Egypt's going to get it? Not a bad solution... They've proved themselves acquiescent partners since '79, right? Since it is impossible - im po ssi ble - to imagine the various factions disarming on their own for any reason - any reason at all, including and especially victory - the various regional actors must be under pressure from the Illuminati to seriously try to get this thing together. Why? Iranian threat galvanizing them? Regional exhaustion? Threat of bio and nuke terror really dawning on them because of something they heard? What? If anyone knows why exactly Sharon decided to push this through - and the Likud largely assented - at this moment, I'd be obliged.

9/07/2005 02:12:00 PM  
Blogger Nathan said...

The justification for moral pluralism is that the righteousness of any act depends on what the causes and consequences of the act are, regardless of the moral system under which the act is committed.

This is unclear.

The justification for moral pluralism is that the righteousness of any act depends on what the causes and consequences of the act are with respect to the values of the judging entity, regardless of the moral system under which the act is committed.

9/07/2005 02:23:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

Dave H -

Maybe, but aren't there enough Israeli Muslims, that given the differing birth rates, have the potential for disaster down the road? Does not Israel need to rid itself of this population of Muslims to survive long term? Can they be subsidized to leave? Surely clear sighted people cam see that the current population mix is not viable. Have you heard any speculation about possible solutions?

Of course. That has been discussed since the earliest days of Israel under the rubric of "relocation", using the code name "Transfer".

The National Socialists of Germany had a similar problem. They wanted an ethnically pure state, as Israel does. Their initial strategy was to work with Zionists to make Jews of the Zionist, communist, socialist, or apolitical persuasion leave voluntarily. The Nazis even worked with Zionist leaders to create Zionist camps to encourage non-Zionist Jews to join the Zionist cause - and create funding mechanisms to permit "Transfer". But that soon showed that the majority of Jews had no intention of becoming Zionists and leaving their professions or businesses for an uncertain future. Similar programs in Israel have tried to convince Arab Israelis that they would be much happier in the UK or America. Laws have even been passed that if an Arab Israeli leaves for school and marries a non-Israeli - they lose citizenship. While a true citizen, a Jew, is permitted to marry any outsider and still come back to "his Home". Hasn't worked on the Israeli Arabs or Palestinians - though many did indeed decide they preferred life in the West to 2nd class treatment in Israel, the Refugee Camps or the Occupied Territories..Over 100,000 Palestinians and Israeli Arabs became Americans.

Then the Nazis, as did the Israelis, turned the screws on the undesirables, hoping by making life miserable for the Palestinians, or the Jews back when, that they would force them to emigrate. That strategy didn't work too well because no one particularly wanted large numbers of Jews or Palestinians in their country.

The Nazis toyed with forceable Transfer of Jews to Latin America, Madagascar, even a rump state carved out of the Balkans. The Zionists Zealots dream of Final racial purity is Transfer at gunpoint, with terror - of all Isreali Arabs and Palestinians to Jordan. For years Zionists have tried to promote the myth that all Arabs are Arabs, indistinguishable between the people of Iraq, Syria, Saudi Arabia, or Morocco - so that shoving out the "so-called" Palestinians...as they like to say...would just be moving one Arab neighborhood to another. All to prep the ground for the "illegitimate people" occupying the soil exclusively for Jews...to "justifiably leave".

The world has long rejected such Zionist tripe, as genetic and linguistic studies show distinct, long established populations quite different from one another. Just as scholars dismissed the Nazi notion that "all Slavs, from Czechoslovakia to Bulgaria to Siberia...were alike".

To Israel's credit, no one publically or privately discusses the "Final Solution" as an option, though massacres did happen in 1948.

********************

If Israel wants to solve it's Israeli Arab problem - integrate them better and lower their high birthrate, several solutions await.

1. Israel has started abandoning "Jews-only" hiring practices for national services like the phone company, El-Al Airline, security companies, defense contractors.

2. Schools and towns still have Jim Crow segregation. As in America under Jim Crow, the housing and schools of the minorities receive less funding and are generally inferior.

3. Israeli-Arab income is 40% less than the favored Jews. Poverty results in higher birthrates.

4. The "dream of Israel" as it is broadcast to the world and it's own population - is a Zionist one. The destiny of the Jewish people, a Jewish homeland run only by Jews, courts that must be made up of Jews to try Jews, a land where only "authorized" natives and Jews anywhere can stake citizenship on. Which puts the Israeli Arabs as an unwanted afterthought in the way of such a destiny. Only when the cancer of Zionism abates somewhat - and only half of Jewish Israelis embrace it's tenents - can Israel work as a multi-ethnic land where equality is accepted and all work together for a common future.

9/07/2005 02:48:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Previously we all seemed to assume that it would be an Israeli hammer that would descend on the chaos of Gaza.
Now another idea, that of Egyptians cleaning upthe Gaza, after the Terrorist spending a liitle more 'red on red' quality time together.
Just a few days ago didn't allah's pork ring post on Egyptian Army Officers getting whacked on their Gaza border?

9/07/2005 02:53:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

Israel is getting in a better defense position as the factions of armed resistance and liberation among the Palestinians wage an expected, and needed power struggle.

Not mentioned much, but true, is that Israeli intelligence helped create Hamas as a counterweight to Arafat and the PLO, but lost control of their Frankenstein years ago.

Jewish terrorists had their own need for executions and purges when they took over not just in Israel but Russia as the Bolsheviks and in Hungary under Bela Kun (nee' Ben Cohen). In Israel, the Hagana fired on the Irgun, the Irgun took out some in the Stern Gang...but in Israel many terrorists went on to become revered leaders like Jabotinsky, Menechim Begin, Shamir, Sharon...And Trotsky (Leon Bronstein) is still so admired that he has followers today.

What Gaza will end up as is under control of strongly anti-Israel elements. But a nation seriously constrained in hitting Israel because Israel will no longer be an Occupying power, but a sovereign nation across a predefined well-fenced Border that can legitmately respond with warplane bombs, tank shells, or artillery to mortar or rocket attacks coming from another sovereign nation.

The EU and Russia have already signalled that they will treat Israeli defensive measures - as long as they are not ridiculously disproprortionate, as legitimate under a state's sovereign right to defend itself from another state. Israel begins it's journey back from a colonizing, land-grabbing Occupier to being just another nation. One that the world will generally accept as they did before the ex-terrorist Menachim Begin began his extensive Colonization and land and water grab campaign.

Very smart of Sharon. But the West Bank will be 100 times more difficult.

9/07/2005 03:09:00 PM  
Blogger Sophia Phoster said...

If the Israelis grew horns and vomited green bile between obscenities I would cheer their victory over the death cult who use their children as a cash crop.

Indeed, if I were the Supreme Mucky Muck I would forge an alliance of representative governments that would declare the members and financiers of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al Qaeda, Hizbu'allah and thier ilk as enemies of humanity to be hunted and annihilated wheresoever they would be found on this earth without regard to sovereignty, convention or quarter.

The butcher's bill would be but a fraction of WWII and what we would eventually have to pay for the nuclear Mullahs.

9/07/2005 03:28:00 PM  
Blogger wretchard said...

Cedarford,

One might think that an Israeli withdrawal to secure pre-1965 boundaries might be a step in the right direction. And it would, if the 1965 boundaries were acceptable to all parties concerned. But they were not. Nor were the 1947 or 1956 boundaries.

As to the Jewish program to "transfer" non-Jews from their midst, one key difference is numbers. There is not now, nor has there ever been nor will there ever be any realistic prospect of ridding the Middle East of Arabs. However, it is entirely feasible to rid the region of Jews. Therefore, while the racist aspects of Zionism can't be justified, the key qualitative difference lies in this asymmetry. There has never been any doubt about the Arab countries' right to exist. What is at issue is whether Israel has this same right.

To his credit, though he may be an unattractive person, Sharon is re-emphasizing this key issue. At this historical stage, it is far from clear to me that either the 'International Community' nor the bar of Arab public opinion, deep down, are amenable to the existence of Israel. Or whether they would not prefer, could it be accomplished swiftly and without much fuss, that the Jewish problem went away.

If the creating the perception that 'Israel is no longer an occupying power' serves the cause of peace, it seems to me reasonable that forcefully acknowledging the right of Israel to exist would do the same thing. Gaza shows that Israel, however haltingly and in despite of internal political division, is willing to utter the first proposition; what now remains to be seen is whether the Arabs are capable of uttering the second. I think they would, had not this crazy UN system taken a wrecker-ball to the fabric of West Bank and Gazan society.

9/07/2005 03:43:00 PM  
Blogger Nathan said...

Cedarford, if Palestine or whatever does become a sovereign nation, and the mortaring, rocket attacks and suicide bombing do not stop, will these constitute acts of war? Can Israel declare and prosecute a war on Palestine?

I believe three things:

1. The attacks will not stop.
2. Israel will be multilaterally condemned if it declares war on the "sovereign nation" of Palestine.
3. Israel will be pressured to make yet more territorial concessions.

9/07/2005 03:53:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

Actually Arabs live in the most homogeneous society on earth. That's not a Zionist invention.

9/07/2005 03:53:00 PM  
Blogger Nathan said...

One might think that an Israeli withdrawal to secure pre-1965 boundaries might be a step in the right direction. And it would, if the 1965 boundaries were acceptable to all parties concerned. But they were not. Nor were the 1947 or 1956 boundaries.

And this is really the heart of the matter.

9/07/2005 03:55:00 PM  
Blogger Sophia Phoster said...

I may be wrong but I believe that the current territory constituting Israel is less than was granted in the original UN resolution internationally legitimizing the nation.

Every so called "border" since that time is a cease-fire line and nothing more.

9/07/2005 04:00:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Deja Voodoo All Over Again:
Nagin calls for mandatory evac.
Blank0 says that's her call.
She's still undecided!!!

9/07/2005 04:34:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

Wretchard -

Both the Road Map and the Crown Prince (now King) Abdullah Plan contain a requirement that surrounding nations recognize Israel's right to exist.

Something that all Nations except Syria say they are ready to do, and Syria's objection - besides the Big One - is the resolution of the Golan border.

The Big One - the showkiller objection - is Right of Return. Decades ago, Israel could have resolved this with payments to Egypt and Jordan to waive refugee grievances. They could have gotten off cheap, but while Israel has made moral blackmail and lawsuits for WWII reparations an art form, it is beyond stingy in compensating the Christian and Muslim refugees it stole land from in 1948.

Then came the era of individual compensation, where many Pals and more Christians were willing to settle for money and a limited right of return, physically. Zionists blew that because not only did they block a giving out a single precious shekel, they believe as the Nazis did that their land must be racially pure one day, and returning Christians and Muslims would defile "their land". So they thwarted all negotiations, individual, or between Muslim Front Line states for years by saying the Pals would get nothing until places like Morocco and Iran paid full price for assets Jews voluntarily or involuntarily left - as adjudicated in Israeli courts - something they knew Iran, Iraq, Morocco had no intent of doing for the Pals.

Palestinian Christians, if possible, hate Israel even more than Muslims, because they lost more land and property than most Muslims - and Israel's re-establishment disrupted the delicate balance and truce that Christians had accomplished with their Muslim majority neighbors not just in Israel, but throughout the ME.

If one ever wishes to get past the Muslim lies and myths, the Zionist ones.....and get a real history...listen to a Palestinian or Lebanese Christian family. But also prepare to get your ears scorched. Only Arafat is hated more than Israel by ME Christians.

Now with the rise of the Pal death cult and radical Islam, the insistence is a physical return AND compensation of all Refugee heirs. Something physically impossible for Israel to do without destroying itself.

And even so, both sides have screwed each other so wantonly, so viciously, the hatred is too high to get a Settlement without the US, Russia - both powers now in decline - to impose it.

The trick will be for strong borders to begin burning out the hatred, show the world that Pals out from under the Zionist boot are still royally screwed up, and Jews inside Israel and outside being willing to part with their precious money - sophistry about how Iran, etc. must pay them 1st aside - in lieu of compensating by bringing whole Palestinian villages back to where they lived for millennia.

(Germans began paying the Jews and Israel for WWII sins beginning in 1949. They never made their payments contingent on Russia, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary paying 1st for the Germans they killed and ethnically cleansed. But then again, the arrogance was beaten out of the Germans by then.)

9/07/2005 05:13:00 PM  
Blogger rhhardin said...

Actually serial murderers aim for notariety, the media playing a key role :

``But whatever the causes, anxiety is on us like a plague these days. Not long ago thrillers and murder mysteries were mostly about criminals with distinct motives. Now they feature the serial killer. Unlike the murderer who killed, fulfilled his purpose, and hoped to remain innocuous, the inexorable serial killer with his open-ended string of crimes hopes to become famous as a source of anxiety. News broadcasts, themselves great organizers of anxiety, regularly contain health segments in which the public is invited to become anxious about what it eats, what it buys, how it seeks pleasure....''

Wm. Kerrigan

http://home.att.net/~rhhardin2/kerrigan.anxiety.txt

9/07/2005 05:27:00 PM  
Blogger Sophia Phoster said...

Reparations are an interesting topic. Israelis should schedule them immediately after they are adequately compensated for the four wars of aggression and the thousands of acts of terrorism perpetrated against them by Arabworld.

9/07/2005 05:43:00 PM  
Blogger wretchard said...

Cedarford,

If Right of Return can be solved by compensation the solution is immediately within reach. The amount of money that has been thrown at this problem and those that are supposed to flow from it, are immense and only likely to grow. But if I understand you aright, this was an option that can no longer be exercised because Israel missed the cutoff.

However that may be we are left with the present. Israel's right to exist has been formally acknowledged in diplomatic discourse -- and then the Right of Return is invoked -- which means, that effectively speaking, Israel has no right to exist. Unfortunately Israel exists and can defend that existence with the same amount of firepower as France might have.

That leaves us with a two step problem. First, will Israel agree to return to some definitely acceptable border? Second, will the Arabs agree to respect that border -- which means no Right of Return, because if a border is to mean anything under these terms, it cannot mean a country from which the Jews will ultimately be expelled.

9/07/2005 06:00:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

C4 wrote: Both the Road Map and the Crown Prince (now King) Abdullah Plan contain a requirement that surrounding nations recognize Israel's right to exist.

The UN in 1948 gave Israel the right to exist

C4: The Big One - the showkiller objection - is Right of Return. Decades ago, Israel could have resolved this with payments to Egypt and Jordan to waive refugee grievances. They could have gotten off cheap, but while Israel has made moral blackmail and lawsuits for WWII reparations an art form, it is beyond stingy in compensating the Christian and Muslim refugees it stole land from in 1948.

Dont confuse two different issues...

In 1948 there were jewish refugees from the arab world in excess of any arab refugees from the israel, population exchanged occurs all over the world, only the palestinians refused to resettle.

C4: Then came the era of individual compensation, where many Pals and more Christians were willing to settle for money and a limited right of return, physically. Zionists blew that because not only did they block a giving out a single precious shekel, they believe as the Nazis did that their land must be racially pure one day, and returning Christians and Muslims would defile "their land"

Actually you state lies. Today the arab world is jew free and Israel is 40% nonjewish. Many a precious shekel has been wasted on palestinians to heal them only to have them blow themsevles up murdering israelis. The arab world stole property and made thier lands juden free, Israel on the other hand is has people of all faiths. the Grand mufti of jerusalem was a personal friend of hilter, not the jews...

C4. So they thwarted all negotiations, individual, or between Muslim Front Line states for years by saying the Pals would get nothing until places like Morocco and Iran paid full price for assets Jews voluntarily or involuntarily left - as adjudicated in Israeli courts - something they knew Iran, Iraq, Morocco had no intent of doing for the Pals.

wow quite the distortion of history... never knew the arab world was begging for peace all these years... those 3 no’s Arab League Summit in Khartoum with the infamous “3 No’s”: no to peace, no to negotiations, and no to recognizing Israel.is just israel bullshit.....


C4: Palestinian Christians, if possible, hate Israel even more than Muslims, because they lost more land and property than most Muslims - and Israel's re-establishment disrupted the delicate balance and truce that Christians had accomplished with their Muslim majority neighbors not just in Israel, but throughout the ME.

again, nice distortions, blame the jews, how dare they, to use YOUR words “reestablish” Israel...That’s the cause of everything, Jews daring to REESTABLISH thier rights to their land...but again you are wrong, the % in all arab lands of christians is going down due to the moslems killing and driving christians out... not israel just look at the peaceful christians that live in israel.

C4: Now with the rise of the Pal death cult and radical Islam, the insistence is a physical return AND compensation of all Refugee heirs. Something physically impossible for Israel to do without destroying itself.

Just compensation was and is offered by israel, any offers for the arab world for the same?

C4: The trick will be for strong borders to begin burning out the hatred, show the world that Pals out from under the Zionist boot are still royally screwed up,

nice NAZI boot image there...

C4: and Jews inside Israel and outside being willing to part with their precious money -

more Jew money hints....

C4: sophistry about how Iran, etc. must pay them 1st aside - in lieu of compensating by bringing whole Palestinian villages back to where they lived for millennia.

Justice means both sides need to be taken care of, let’s see one agreement from the 21 nation states of the arab world vrs Israel for property and compesation, Israel alone should not be required to compensate until the arab world does the same, and yes it is related and the SAME issue

Nice rewritting of the yrs for 1948 - 2005...

9/07/2005 06:33:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

C4: The National Socialists of Germany had a similar problem. They wanted an ethnically pure state, as Israel does.

Prove this, at this time, Israel has the most culturally diverse country in the entire middle east, fact prove your statement false....

c4: Their initial strategy was to work with Zionists to make Jews of the Zionist, communist, socialist, or apolitical persuasion leave voluntarily. The Nazis even worked with Zionist leaders to create Zionist camps to encourage non-Zionist Jews to join the Zionist cause - and create funding mechanisms to permit "Transfer". But that soon showed that the majority of Jews had no intention of becoming Zionists and leaving their professions or businesses for an uncertain future.

yes the fun filled voluntary nazi transfer programs... never heard of them.
again, stick to the facts, the nazis murdered millions to cleanout their lands

c4: Similar programs in Israel have tried to convince Arab Israelis that they would be much happier in the UK or America.

this aint the same thing..

C4: Laws have even been passed that if an Arab Israeli leaves for school and marries a non-Israeli - they lose citizenship.

please post a link to prove this

C4: .Over 100,000 Palestinians and Israeli Arabs became Americans.

Same amount of jewish israelis have become american, your point?


C4: Then the Nazis, as did the Israelis, turned the screws on the undesirables, hoping by making life miserable for the Palestinians, or the Jews back when, that they would force them to emigrate.

Actually the Nazis used actual screws, so again , your comparison sucks

c4: the Zionists Zealots dream of Final racial purity is Transfer at gunpoint, with terror - of all Isreali Arabs and Palestinians to Jordan.

Where do you get this stuff?

C4: For years Zionists have tried to promote the myth that all Arabs are Arabs,

yes a guy named NASSER said that....


C4: If Israel wants to solve it's Israeli Arab problem - integrate them better and lower their high birthrate, several solutions await.

C4: 1. Israel has started abandoning "Jews-only" hiring practices for national services like the phone company, El-Al Airline, security companies, defense contractors.

Please provide any proof as arabs do serve as judges, in the army, own companies and land... your flipped around, jews are not allowed to work in all those examples in any arab country, nor are they allowed to vote, own land or even live...

C4: 2. Schools and towns still have Jim Crow segregation. As in America under Jim Crow, the housing and schools of the minorities receive less funding and are generally inferior.

Just like in amercia, the wealthier towns have better infrastructure, the arabs dont pay anywhere near the amount in taxes the jews do, and such JUST LIKE IN AMERICA some towns have nicer schools, but in the arab world jews are not allowed to live, so they have no problem living with arabs, they have all be ethnically cleansed.

C4: 3. Israeli-Arab income is 40% less than the favored Jews. Poverty results in higher birthrates.

It’s called work ethic... if the arabs dont want to work why should they receive the same pay?

c4: 4. The "dream of Israel" as it is broadcast to the world and it's own population - is a Zionist one. The destiny of the Jewish people, a Jewish homeland run only by Jews, courts that must be made up of Jews to try Jews, a land where only "authorized" natives and Jews anywhere can stake citizenship on. Which puts the Israeli Arabs as an unwanted afterthought in the way of such a destiny.

the arabs have 21 states already, and another one coming, the land mass of the arab world is 100 times larger than all of israel, let’s see the brother arabs open up thier wallets and homes to share their societies....

C4: Only when the cancer of Zionism abates somewhat - and only half of Jewish Israelis embrace it's tenents - can Israel work as a multi-ethnic land where equality is accepted and all work together for a common future.

the cancer of zionism... nice....

only when the cancer of islam and arab nationalism abates somewhat - now that sounds better after all, 21 nations of the arab world plus your pals the palestinians have ZERO multi-ethnic lands, whereas israel already does quite a nice job...

9/07/2005 06:57:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

Wretchard - Unfortunately Israel exists and can defend that existence with the same amount of firepower as France might have.

Unfortunately for only a very, very short time without an America willing to break an energy embargo placed on Israel. An America willing to go into Depression to lose 70% of it's energy needs then give 5% of what it has left to a country that bars 98% of Americans from becoming Israelis based on their religion. We are in far worse shape than in 1973 or 1979 with regards to having imported oil cut off.

Israel has the power of nukes and an adequate number of people to destroy but not hold, other ME nations or their oil supplies.

How would China, Russia, Pakistan, France react to Israel trying to seize the ME Oil reserves or nuking the oil fields?

Badly. Exceptionally badly, a no messing around with mere words, missiles on the way, type of badly.

Would the US risk WWIII by launching against the Russians or CHina?

Unlikely.

Not even a Congressman with a Zionist-provided Swiss Bank account wants "America and it's Special Friend" situation where we engage in a WMD war to the finish to keep Israel's post-1967 grabbed land safe against the rest of the world" situation.

Time is short. Parity is coming to the ME. Either we get Final Borders or the oil trillions will buy WMD parity in the ME.

9/07/2005 08:29:00 PM  
Blogger anybudee said...

Cedarford

Are you preparing an answer?

I appreciate SOME of your views and your turns of phrase, but you make outlandish statements which you don't back up with scholarship.

Is your refusal to answer Pork due to time constraints? Are you Googling? Or has he flat shut you up? Or is it something worse, like not lowering yourself because of racial bigotry? Or a supposed intellectual pride.

I know the point-by-point is tedious, but he makes direct challenges to some of your arguments that, if not answered at least in part, makes you look like a fool. Or a blowhard who shouldn't be listened to.

I've seen you get savaged elsewhere (whole websites devoted to you) and wondered if they were righteous bustings. Were they?

This ain't personal. Just like a lot of other people, I'm just trying to sort out the truth. So far, you ain't helping much.

9/07/2005 09:30:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

anybudee -

On blogs, people put out info. It could be good, it could be bad. But this is talk, not footnoted academic papers. Sometimes, a reader may have a question of another blogger, and ask where that came from.

But others try and challenge any point made as if the blogger they disagree with is a paid researcher to them or they are in a teacher-student relation and the request is to document any point made with "proof"....which of course will be not accepted but only lead to further research requests.

It's a tactic. It's meant to distract, to sometimes just groundlessly make charges like "liar" "anti-progressive" "third roader"...and put the opponent on the defensive by taking an inferior position to the accuser - all of a sudden, if you honor the 8-10 demands of Porky or whoever, you are in the role of the defendent - awaiting judgement.

The communists pioneered this tactic. Accused deviants from the Party line were given a list of accusations they were to defend against. Of course the list and everything else was bogus to the judgement which was anything from execution to apology and re-education.

The Marxist heirs - in the Feminist movement, those organizing and leading the Negroes
from 1910 until the blacks chucked them out in the 70s, and the modern Marcusian Left and in Leftie politics use this tactic often.

Now if Porky was in the habit of making his own assertions about Palestinian racial inferiority, inbred savagery, all Arabs are alike, etc. etc. --- all well-footnoted, he might have a point of demanding I rise to his standards and footnote as well.

But he doesn't. It's just a tactic.

9/08/2005 12:10:00 AM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

And Frankly Anybudee -

As we have strongly disagreed in the past on issues, we also have to examine the tactic of tag-teaming or piggybacking on the charges of others.

Which you are doing under a thin veneer of false interest and fake open-mindedness is attempting to discredit a poster.

Making you a disingenuous piece of shit, for starters.

Let's examine your sophistry, which is loaded with a bias that shows your true stripes:

Anybudee --

Are you preparing an answer?

I appreciate SOME of your views and your turns of phrase, but you make outlandish statements which you don't back up with scholarship.

Is your refusal to answer Pork due to time constraints? Are you Googling? Or has he flat shut you up? Or is it something worse, like not lowering yourself because of racial bigotry? Or a supposed intellectual pride.

I know the point-by-point is tedious, but he makes direct challenges to some of your arguments that, if not answered at least in part, makes you look like a fool. Or a blowhard who shouldn't be listened to.

I've seen you get savaged elsewhere (whole websites devoted to you) and wondered if they were righteous bustings. Were they?

This ain't personal. Just like a lot of other people, I'm just trying to sort out the truth. So far, you ain't helping much.
*********************
That is as fine a piece of intelluctual dishonesty as I've read in a long, long time, anybuddee. You are no more a truth-seeker than the Bolshevik was that slapped a list of charges of counter-revolutionary activity into the hands of some goy priest while they had the grave dug and the Makarov loaded already..

9/08/2005 12:21:00 AM  
Blogger M. Simon said...

Cedarford,

No mention of the mass transfers of Jews out of the Arab world.

If it is good enough for the Arabs why not the Jews too?

As to the Jews stealing the land: land taken in defensive wars is not stolen land. It is lost land.

Prior to the start of the anti-Israeli wars Jews bought the land. It is the arabs who are the thieves.

9/08/2005 03:11:00 AM  
Blogger M. Simon said...

Cedarford,

I would think the Arab world owes the Jews for stealing their property post 1948.

Do you suppose the Arabs will pay up?

Do you suppose the Jews could get the right to visit? Let alone the right to return?

I say let the one debt cancel the others.

9/08/2005 03:17:00 AM  
Blogger M. Simon said...

Cedarford,

1967 grabbed land?

As I understand it closing the Straights of Tirana to Israeli traffic was an act of war.

Israel under international law was empowered to strike Egypt (if it chose to do so) to gain free passage on the open seas.

When Jordan joined with Egypt to fight back following the initial Israeli attack they became parties to the war.

When Syria joined it, it too became a party to the war.

They all lost.

There is a diplomatic rule for such happenings: Most Unfortunate.

Post 1967 Israel offered the land back in exchange for a peace treaty with the Arab world.

The Arabs rejected the offer.

There is a diplomatic saying for such happenings: Most Unfortunate.

9/08/2005 03:27:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

c4: Now if Porky was in the habit of making his own assertions about Palestinian racial inferiority, inbred savagery, all Arabs are alike, etc. etc. --- all well-footnoted, he might have a point of demanding I rise to his standards and footnote as well.

But he doesn't. It's just a tactic.

I simply point out your lies and distortions, you dont respond because I dont lie and distort?

yep....

9/08/2005 04:55:00 AM  
Blogger Sophia Phoster said...

Using capital letters in a phrase does not elevate their meaning or provide an intrinsic source of authority. Combining return and right in the same phrase does not impart any more legitimacy to the combination than does "37% improved."

Like I said, a masterful piece of public relations but little else.

9/08/2005 05:00:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

c4: Unfortunately for only a very, very short time without an America willing to break an energy embargo placed on Israel.

actually that was tried and failed in 1973.... any more bullshit arguements?

c4: An America willing to go into Depression to lose 70% of it's energy needs then give 5% of what it has left to a country that bars 98% of Americans from becoming Israelis based on their religion.

yes, more crap... 98% of americans cannot become israelis, news flash 98% of american cant become japanese either so?

nice usage of the word "bars" like 98% of americans have tried and failed to become israelis...

c4: We are in far worse shape than in 1973 or 1979 with regards to having imported oil cut off.

maybe cause americans buy suv's?

c4: Israel has the power of nukes and an adequate number of people to destroy but not hold, other ME nations or their oil supplies.

so?

c4: How would China, Russia, Pakistan, France react to Israel trying to seize the ME Oil reserves or nuking the oil fields?

what a crazy question....

c4: Not even a Congressman with a Zionist-provided Swiss Bank account wants "America and it's Special Friend" situation where we engage in a WMD war to the finish to keep Israel's post-1967 grabbed land safe against the rest of the world" situation.

1. please show any example of a "zionist -provided swiss bank account"

2. 1967 was not a land grab it was a denfensive war (for the 345th time)

c4: Time is short. Parity is coming to the ME. Either we get Final Borders or the oil trillions will buy WMD parity in the ME.

you still dont get it, it aint borders, it's israel right not to be murdered by your friends....

9/08/2005 05:05:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

c4: On blogs, people put out info. It could be good, it could be bad. But this is talk, not footnoted academic papers. Sometimes, a reader may have a question of another blogger, and ask where that came from.

But others try and challenge any point made as if the blogger they disagree with is a paid researcher to them or they are in a teacher-student relation and the request is to document any point made with "proof"....which of course will be not accepted but only lead to further research requests.

It's a tactic. It's meant to distract, to sometimes just groundlessly make charges like "liar" "anti-progressive" "third roader"...and put the opponent on the defensive by taking an inferior position to the accuser - all of a sudden, if you honor the 8-10 demands of Porky or whoever, you are in the role of the defendent - awaiting judgement.

total evasion and bullshit... on a blog as c4 says people can spout crap and can play loose and fast with facts so if i see total lies/distortions he states it's a tactic? nonsense, i post to correct his bullshit, from the "precious shekel" to the "Jewish boot on the throat" c4 loves to use nazi imagery and put it on israel... i doubt i will convince c4 of the error of his ways,but i will go accusation by accusation to show everyone what a pile of crap he is spouting.

9/08/2005 05:10:00 AM  
Blogger iotm said...

Don't you people read the news? Come on http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L07304692.htm

Nathan you`re right, I misused the term moral relativism. Although the main reason I did so was to simply throw it back at people here who accuse me of it, which shows they don`t really know what it means either.

Here`s the problem Nathan. Killing political enemies is bad, this is your general statement when referring to when Palestinian factions are killing each other. It`s a sign of brutality and violence. But when Israel does the EXACT same thing, all of a sudden such an act is completely justified.

When you have the exact same situation, you must treat both actors the same way. This is the principle of justice. Or to paraphrase Kant, for an act to be moral, you have to extend it so that you`d agree with it even if everyone in the world did it, that includes your enemies.

Basically you have to reject the concept of justice to remain consistent.

An ethical system that rejects the principle of justice at it`s core can hardly be considered an ethical system. Basically your idea of ethics is `whatever I do is right, whatever they do is wrong` which of course is the exact opposite of what ethics is.

9/08/2005 06:29:00 AM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

M Simon, Even the Israeli High Command admitted later that the reason they attacked was that they believed Nasser was going to be a menace and when he put 2 divisions into the Sinai without artillery or air cover for political saber-rattling - but leaving them totally vulnerable. The Israelis said it was a strategic blunder of enormous magnitude and a perfect opportunity for Israel to hit first, a moment they said it was clear they would be idiots not to start the war over.

So they did.

Then for the next 40 years, fed a line via their Jewish American supporters that it was a defensive war - BS that is only now being purged from US textbooks.

It bothers me to no end to see the Zionists I once admired earlier in life are habitual liars, as bad as the Arabs. It is the lies and half truths that one gets from both the Muslim nations and Israel that is so off-putting.

There was never a blockade of the Straits of Tihran. There was never a ship blocked. There was just a threat to do it sometime. It was a pretext the Israelis came up with long after the real cause - blasting 2 Egyptian divisions to rubble - had been accomplished.

Japan had their pretext - saying their War had been started by British and American machinations to economically choke them and weaken their military.

Nazi Germany had their Danzig pretext for hitting Poland, then excellent truthful causus belli in their declarations of defensive war against America (we had been secretly attacking their vessels since Sept 1941 and had long since violated the Neutrality Pact) and defensive war against the Soviets (Soviets had completely disregarded elements of the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact regarding prohibition of Bolshevik subversion in Spain, Greece, the Balkans).

Danzig and the idea that Barbarossa were defensive wars of course was crap - the Nazis wanted land and defeat of their enemies.

The US itself has pulled off wars on flimsy pretext as well. Various 19th and 20th Century invasions of uppity Caribbean or Latin nations. War with Spain. The Gulf of Tonkin incident. WMDs in Iraq.

Israel is not alone in lying about defensive wars.

But 4 of 5 wars - 1948,1956, 1967, 1982 - Israel attacked 1st. the 5 Arab Armies attacking crap was really about 5 nations a month after Israeli terrorists, the hagana, and Arab irregulars started going at it - and those Armies were trying to reverse Israel's grab of the lands Arabs were supposed to get in Partition. 1956 was pure colonial aggression by the Brits, French, and Israel. 1967 was explained. 1982 was a war started that began as a punitive expedition and ended up with Sharon trying to do a full invasion of Lebanon. Only 1973 was not an Israeli 1st strike. And it is important to note that it was fought entirely on post 1967 occupied Arab lands.

9/08/2005 06:34:00 AM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

Porky - I post to correct his bullshit, from the "precious shekel" to the "Jewish boot on the throat" c4 loves to use nazi imagery and put it on israel..

Well Porky, how much have the Zionist lawyers gotten off Europeans for WWII compensation for lost land, homes, seized property? 140-145 billion so far.

How many shekels have slipped from THEIR fingers to compensate for 1948, 1967 land, homes, property they have seized?

Diddlysquat.

No nation, not even the US, disputes the Zionist Occupation has been brutal. Initial peaceful Palestinian protests against Zionist occupation, the "Jews-only allowed roads", the land and water grabs ---which were traditional marches, rallys, and general strikes were brutally put down by the IDF.

Then the Occupation became even more onerous and oppresive as slaughter on both sides became more common. A Settler shoots 4 olive harvesters, a bomb takes out a Zionist bus...and so on...

9/08/2005 06:48:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

When you have the exact same situation, you must treat both actors the same way. This is the principle of justice.

difference is, when the palestinians are murdering each other they are not seeking to murder innocent civilians, the palestinians TARGET civilians to murder, whereas the israelis kill (use murder) palestinians trying to MURDER

9/08/2005 07:39:00 AM  
Blogger Nathan said...

But when Israel does the EXACT same thing, all of a sudden such an act is completely justified.

This is where we disagree. I don't view killing terrorist thugs, or accidental killing of innocents in pursuit of terrorist thugs, to be the same thing as "political assassination".

On the other hand, if the IDF stormed Arafat's compound, shot him in the legs, dragged his broken and bleeding body out into the street and shot him twenty-three times in the head, perhaps that could be considered a "political assassination". But they did not do this despite Arafat's and his successor Abbas' connections to terrorist organizations.

Perhaps you believe that Palestinian terrorist organizations, or "militant groups", are equivalent to the IDF. This would be another point on which we disagree. I do not believe that the IDF intentionally engages in the murder of innocents for the sake of murdering innocents. Unlike the Palestinian "militant groups", the IDF is accountable to a sovereign nation and under chronic critical scrutiny from watchdog groups, many of whom serve their own interests by propagandizing every action taken by IDF forces. This is why I posed the question to Cedarford earlier: could Israel ever declare war against a Palestinian nation? I think we both know the answer is no; they would be instantly condemned and abandoned, even by the United States, regardless of the circumstances. There are forces stronger than justice at work here.

The Palestinian terrorist organizations, meanwhile, remain inscrutable. Case in point, from the article you linked:

Human-rights groups say Israeli troops have used excessive force against Palestinians.

Have these same groups ever said that Palestinians used excessive force against Israelis?

To use your own quote: When you have the exact same situation, you must treat both actors the same way. This is the principle of justice.

9/08/2005 08:47:00 AM  
Blogger anybudee said...

Cedarford

Thanks for the response. At least the first one. Did the same guy who did the 12:10, do the 12:21?

You cannot really believe that I am in concert with Pork Rinds, he hates everything I stand for.

We have not actually gone mano-a-mano in the past, I've just followed your paper (byte) trail.

You are 180 out if you think I'm being disinterested and dishonest about your back and forths with Pork. I am ABSOLUTELY interested in them. That's why I'd cattle-prod you into answering, just like I did him several weeks ago.

Here's why and do get this: We have no good information systems here in the U.S. Everything is filtered thru somebody's kidneys and slanted for some purpose. Many times what you think you know about an issue, you don't. So, how does one find the truth? Potter Stewart said one reason for freedom of speech is to engender conflict. Truth, much of the time, is seen in the tension. Now do you see the method in my madness? Just call me Fred Friendly. Sophmoric? Probably. Sophistic? Not even close.

Here's another clue as to why I'd pit you and Porky: That guy you mentioned, standing in front of his grave? He wasn't a Bolshevik. He was a Baptist.

9/08/2005 10:45:00 AM  
Blogger iotm said...

Nathan you're committing the same errors. Palestinians are terrorists because you say so, but when Israelis do the same crap, it's perfectly ok.

Innocent civilians are killed by the IDF at a rate of 3 for every innocent Israeli killed. Israel has more power so they can afford to take out political and militant leaders. But usually they're just terrorizing regular people. If a Palestinian were to take out an extremist/terrorist like Netanyahu, it would be the greatest crime in the world to you. Palestinians can only target civilians since that's all they're capable of. It's terrorism. By targetting regular people they're trying to inflict terror in the population to effect change in their situation. Israel targets regular Palestinian civilians, including children, for the purpose of spreading terror among the Palestinian population, to further subjugate and disenfranchise people, and weaken their political resolve. Clearly that's terrorism, carried out with the same mechanism and the same motive as the Palestinians. Yet when Israel does it they're heroes, and when Palestinians do it, they're evil.

The fact you refuse to see these simple facts is because you're not ethical. Ethics requires objectivity and justice, and you have no interest in that, you only have interest in furthering your own claims of American imperialism. I support the Palestinian cause but I'm the first to point out that many of the militant groups are engaged in terrorism. Why would I try to deny that basic fact? Just becuase I support the Palestinian cause, also doesn't mean they support every single aspect of it. Religious people have notions of absolute authority, thus you can't criticize it, it's a shame religion can destroy so many brains.

I have no need to paint over anything I support with pictures of lollipops and puppydogs and deny the reality of it. The american imperialist needs to do this because deep down they know everything they're doing is wrong, so instead of coming right out and saying "I don't give a fuck about morality, human rights, justice, what I want is the expansion of american power", you lie to yourselves. What's worse you have nothing to gain from the expansion of this power, you're just like the ignorant German masses supporting blindly supporting Hitler.

It's all contradiction, nothing said on this blog is logically consistent.

9/08/2005 12:02:00 PM  
Blogger Vercingetorix said...

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9/08/2005 12:43:00 PM  
Blogger Nathan said...

Israel targets regular Palestinian civilians, including children, for the purpose of spreading terror among the Palestinian population, to further subjugate and disenfranchise people, and weaken their political resolve. Clearly that's terrorism, carried out with the same mechanism and the same motive as the Palestinians.

I'm sorry, I missed the episode where the IDF soldier walks into a nightclub full of Palestinian teenagers and blows himself up. Or the one where another IDF soldier steps onto a bus full of schoolchildren, businesspeople and tourists and detonates his knapsack filled with ball bearings and nails coated in anticoagulant rat poison.

The terrorism you accuse Israel of consists of maintaining checkpoints, conducting investigations, interrogations, and arrests. The terrorism I accuse Palestinians of is serial mass murder with the publicly acknowledged and glorified intent to mass murder.

I would have no problem with Palestinian authorities maintaining their own checkpoints, or conducting investigations, interrogations and arrests. But they do none of these things. They revel in the death of their own children and the death of Jews instead. And you "support the Palestinian cause"! What does that say about your ethics and your objectivity?

The fact you refuse to see these simple facts is because you're not ethical.

Since your ethics apparently condemn police actions while condoning intentional mass murder, I'll take this as a compliment.

Ethics requires objectivity and justice, and you have no interest in that.

If your "objectivity" and "justice" translate into advocacy of the murder of Jews- since that's "all the Palestinians are capable of"- I'll gladly have no part of either.

9/08/2005 01:11:00 PM  
Blogger anybudee said...

Vercingentorix

You left me out in the particulars of your bile spew. Should I feel honored? Or overlooked?

What would make you think that I am anti-Zionist? I am, and have been on record as pro-Israel. I only take exception to some Jews hatred of christianity. And pointed out to some of the bigots on this blog that the aforesaid hatred is counterproductive to Israel's support in this country. Or is that too fine a distinction for you?

Use your broad brush on someone else, you arrogant jerk.

9/08/2005 01:23:00 PM  
Blogger Vercingetorix said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

9/08/2005 01:59:00 PM  
Blogger Vercingetorix said...

BTW, what part of clearing up a moral moron's misconception of terrorism and asking for clarification from someone who can't walk by a computer without ordering up a baker's dozen 'Zionist' slanders, what part of all that is 'bile'?

9/08/2005 02:02:00 PM  
Blogger anybudee said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

9/08/2005 02:20:00 PM  
Blogger anybudee said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

9/08/2005 02:28:00 PM  
Blogger Vercingetorix said...

Hold on, anybudee.
I saw your comments, I saw Cedarford's responses, and only this, perhaps overly fairminded comment right here...

You are 180 out if you think I'm being disinterested and dishonest about your back and forths with Pork. I am ABSOLUTELY interested in them. That's why I'd cattle-prod you into answering, just like I did him several weeks ago.


...is why I put you in with the magnificient duo. Cedarford's continuous slander of everything Jewish/Israeli/Zionist on every topic in every thread is so nettlesome and transparent, and iotm's plain equivalency of mass murderers to soldiers is so disgusting, such moderation in regards to evil is no virtue. If you don't belong, because you made no declarative statements on this post for either position as far as I've seen, then I apologize.

I'll erase your name from my post and reprint it below.

9/08/2005 02:41:00 PM  
Blogger Vercingetorix said...

Great, its a perfect storm of jackassery...iotm and cedarford having an anti-Zionist cookout.

Iotm, terrorism isn't just 'killing innocent civilians' or just 'killing civilians.' Not all murderers are terrorists just as not all killers are terrorists just as not even all terrorists have taken human life. An attempted suicide bomber, who got caught and failed, is as much a terrorist as a successful one. Someone that manufactures devices and aids and abets terrorism is...a terrorist.

Nor do the victims have to be civilian. If you bomb an enlisted club, a PX, or a barracks...100% military, that is uncontestedly a terrorist act. And there are precedents for this, the Khobar Towers, USS Cole, Beirut Marin barracks bombing. Further allowances can even be made for on duty military, even in a war zone. For instance, sending a car bomb into a military vehicle handing out humanitarian supplies or candy to children. Or at a chowhall, for instance. If you don't accept those as terrorist attacks, you are not simply a moral idiot, you're an indefensibly doltish one.

Vis a vis the Palestinians and the Israelis, not the tactics, targets, weapons, lawfulness of the combatants and adherence to the laws of war, and stated aims are the least bit similiar and to the great loss of the Palistinians. Israel may break a laws of war on occasion, but the Palestinians don't follow a single one. None of them, not even in the annexes and 'other' conventions.

And Cedarford, long-winded as usual, we tolerate your anti-semitism only as far as you cloak it with anti-Zionism. Unfortunately, when you make blanket statements about Israel and the Zionists, you conflate all Israelis as Zionists.

Even if everything you say about the "Zionists" is true, unless every, or the vast majority of, Israelis are Zionists, what you are talking about is simply interesting but unrelated.

Al Qaeda is no more legitimate in flying planes into buildings to punish the KKK than Hamas is for bombing Israeli citizens because of a Zionist movement.

So are all Israelis Zionists? If even American Jews are lumped into the Zionist column, are all Jews Zionist as well?

If the Zionists are a small group, the Palistinians are not legitimized in striking against them. If it is a commanding majority, there is no evidence for that or for the agenda you slander them with. Either you're plain wrong or in bad faith and anti-semetic to boot which is obvious, you can't pen a predicate without some aforementioned jackassery. WHich one is it?

9/08/2005 02:42:00 PM  
Blogger anybudee said...

Thanks V,

It seems strange, but in these days of mistrust in all institutions (I mean, everybody used to KNOW Walter Cronkite was on the up 'n up) the only way to find something solid is to read between the lines. Kinda like Wretchard does when he does his split screen analysis - What he said & What he REALLY said.

It's helpful to see opposing sides duke it out over issues that affect us. However repugnant both C4's and Pork Rinds' rhetoric is, they both represent significant segments of our culture. Those segments are growing in footprint. They do not just announce their intentions or even their true beliefs, but someday, if the prophets are correct, their war will engulf us all.

I have not made the same connection vis-a-vis iotm, but his segment -virulent anti-theists, have been the high priests of our system of higher education for years. (things might actually be changing there..)

You're a student of war. 1st rule: Know who your enemy is.

9/08/2005 03:27:00 PM  
Blogger Nathan said...

The interesting thing about Cedarford is that he does come up with remarkable insights on topics other than those pertaining to Israel. I don't understand his prejudices on the subject, but his other analyses do garner my respect.

On the other hand, iotm merely adopts a standard set of positions and attempts to wrap them in a thin veneer of juvenile intellectualism- something passing for logic but absent empiricism.

If I had to guess, I would pin Cedarford at middle age, with iotm as an angsty teenager. Their perspectives on everything are worlds apart though certain conclusions may coincide.

9/08/2005 03:35:00 PM  
Blogger anybudee said...

I actually DO, Nathan.

Finding out how much Orthodox Jews hate Jesus and His followers was a curveball that relly buckled my knees. I mean we are Israel's staunchest allies! Over at the Fray, just questioning AIPAC or even asking about cricitism of "The Passion" got you the 'antisemite' epithet. That stuff goes down real hard when you actually see yourself as someone's supporter.

I ain't trying to justify C4's rhetoric, I mean, I've been the target of it, too. I wish he'd cool it. But I've asked the same thing of Pork Rinds. Both of them are pretty sharp customers and their go-rounds could be worth the price of admission. I imagine stuff like that used to take place in our universities, before the PC religion.

I guess blogs are the last bastion of free speech.

9/08/2005 04:19:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

Vercintorix -

I think it is you who are transparent in your unquestioning cheerleading for Israel and your happy talk that there is a high tech US military solution for every ME problem.

Israel is a foreign country. It is not the 51st State. It supports us in some ways, stabs us in the back in others to the point they are not on our long list of nations we consider trustworthy allies like the UK, Australia, Canada, Japan....

Israel is also a nation with deep hooks into America's influential elites. It has managed to procure for it's wealthy citizens and it's peace bribe neighbors half of total US foreign aid. The aid for Israeli citizens alone, cumulatively, exceeds the present value of aid dollars given for the Marshall Plan.

Most importantly, they have carefully cultivated a mindset in Right Wing dupes like you that it is unpatriotic or biased to question Israel steering US foreign policy or it's corruption and intimidation of US politicians.

Without going into the past for evidence of it's clout, lets briefly discuss it;s clout at the present. Why are the neocons that still dare to publicly cajole or demand of the BUshies that we have grand new wars to open up against Syria, Lebanon, and Iran...still at it, insisting they will be cakewalk wars of liberation easily accomplished "by surgical bombing and a few thousand special ops troops"??? Because they are ignorant of the military requirements, but are blinded as well by there conviction that 3 more wars are "Good for Our Special Ally Israel".

Care for another present day manifestation of undue clout?

We have US authorities begging people to move from houses that should never been built in the first place. We urged them not to build in a foolhardy place that put them in danger. Now we are asked to give them tons of money so they can rebuild elsewhere. 300,000 per family.

New Orleans victims of Katrina???
Heck no! There is no way the Congress will ever give 300,000 dollars to the 275,000 to 365,000 families who have destroyed homes, including over 100,000 in New Orleans.

No, that 300,000 is based on Jewish Americans pushing their clout to get the US to pay 2.2 billion on top of the usual 3-5 billion dollar welfare check Israel gets, to pay that nice sweet sum to 8,000 Israeli colonists that we spent the last 30 years screaming at the Zionists as official US policy - NOT to Colonize Gaza..

That is what frosts me. We harm America's vital interests due to Zionist money bribing Congress - and we are willing to pay more to the "Special" friends citizens that defied the US and built anyways than we are to spend tax dollars to pay for America citizens we never warned but who built perhaps where they shouldn't have.

9/08/2005 05:11:00 PM  
Blogger Vercingetorix said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

9/08/2005 08:19:00 PM  
Blogger Vercingetorix said...

Oh, Zionists again. Care to enlighten us on what we give to Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and lots of the other countries of the Middle East? I can guarantee you that it is not less than what we give to Israel.

We went to war for Israel? Where, Syria? No. Lebanon. No. Egypt? No. Iraq. Ahhhh.

Except there are American reasons for a war with Iraq, the first plus the sanctions plus the last and the current anti-insurgency. Correlations do not make causation, and you know that, or you should.

What the hell does Katrina have to do with negotiations in the Middle East? It’s a non sequitur and that’s being kind. Having to spend tax dollars to pay for America citizens we never warned but who built perhaps where they shouldn't have has absolutely nothing to do with anything in current contexts of the Israel-Palestinian conflict, or Islamist terror, yet of course it has E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G to do with Israel. Israel is involved in everything, the entire universe revolves around Israel. And Zionists.

And you still don’t address your vulgar slanders on Israelis as Nazis, the most outrageous insult I can imagine. These metaphors are not instructive, they do not have currency even if philosophically they were born in the same period in much the same areas.

Whatever value is left in your observations, it must be processed through the husk of this obsession of all things back to anti-Zionism and this foolish insistency on slandering the historical victims with their historical prosecutors.

9/08/2005 08:21:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

Verc, your response only reinforces my point that you are a Zionist dupe.

Keep in mind that you should always think as an American 1st.

And you may wish to also rethink your posts of not too many months back where you were talking of expanding the War.

As for Nazi analogies, I don't do the game of slurring Israelis as Nazis in all matters that the Far Left enjoys.....but the problem remains of three 20th Century movements that believed in (1)racial purity and cleansing or "redeeming" lands held by the "other"; (2) agressive expansion to retake ancient homelands; (3) racial inferiority of all others - the notion they were the vituous surrounded in a sea of inferiors of degraded culture.

Zionism came first. Nazism came later and so too the cult of Yamoto Race superiority and destiny.

The National Socialists were honest, saying the Zionists being non-Aryans were unworthy of course, but their ideas of socialist enlightenment, lebensraum, and racial destiny were inspiring principles.

So the analogies are obvious. Aryan only vs. Jews only states. Reclaiming the ancient Eastern homeland of the Germanic Volk, reclaiming the ancient homeland of the Hebrews. Eager expansion and brutal occupations. Ethnic cleansings of the surrounding inferior peoples.

Your defense is to urge people to overlook the obvious because "the Jews have suffered enough" and avoid discussing the similarities as "hurtful". The Japanese, BTW, are very anti-Zionist. Despite the archipelago having no significant Jewish presence or history of any anti-Semitism. Japanese say they oppose the Zionists because they remind Japanese of what Japan was like after Meijii days, democracy's 1st period, but before WWII's end. Insane expansionist militarism and racial purity laws and the Yamoto Race Cult.

9/08/2005 09:03:00 PM  
Blogger Vercingetorix said...

As for Nazi analogies, I don't do the game of slurring Israelis as Nazis in all matters that the Far Left enjoys...

Don't do that Cedarford. LieYou know exactly what I'm talking about.

Danzig and the idea that Barbarossa were defensive wars of course was crap - the Nazis
wanted land and defeat of their enemies…Israel is not alone in lying about defensive wars.
6:34 AM


A direct comparison from Nazi Germany's warmaking to Israel's wars.

Then the Nazis, as did the Israelis, turned the screws on the undesirables, hoping by making life miserable for the Palestinians, or the Jews back when, that they would force them to emigrate. That strategy didn't work too well because no one particularly wanted large numbers of Jews or Palestinians in their country...

Oh, Kristalnacht happened in Israel? Were crescents pinned to the lapels of Palestinians? Your comparison is inapt and clumsy, and I'm being civil.

The National Socialists of Germany had a similar problem. They wanted an ethnically pure state, as Israel does. Their initial strategy was to work with Zionists to make Jews of the Zionist, communist, socialist, or apolitical persuasion leave voluntarily. The Nazis even worked with Zionist leaders to create Zionist camps to encourage non-Zionist Jews to join the Zionist cause - and create funding mechanisms to permit "Transfer".
2:48 PM


Such is to say that Israel has an undesirable minority so ergo like the Nazis...

You have in three places assumed motivation, implied equivalent treatment/conduct, and promoted an equivalent judgement of history between Nazis and Israelis. These ARE exactly the equivalences that the worst of the left uses.

Your argument is facile for a linkage between Nazism and Zionism; eugenics, birth control movements, nationalism of all counts could be represented similarly.

So the analogies are obvious. Aryan only vs. Jews only states. What about Palestinian-only states? How will the Jews and Christians fare, now in the Arab world, or in Palestine proper? Care to speculate? That's a massive omission in the comparison to say the least. Reclaiming the ancient Eastern homeland of the Germanic Volk, reclaiming the ancient homeland of the Hebrews. And reclaiming a racially pure Palestine? Perhaps? Eager expansion and brutal occupations. There is no comparison between Nazi Germany and Israel. For one thing, there are still Palestinians. For another, there's still an Israel, and its still within its own borders, not from the Med to the Persian gulf. Ethnic cleansings of the surrounding inferior peoples. And you're officially a dick.

9/08/2005 11:16:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

Vercongtorix --

Your military judgement on the ability of Israel to take and keep land from the Med by the Nile to the Euphrates (The Zionist Dream) is as defective as your frequent posts that America's problems in the ME simply await high tech military solutions.

Israel's best long-term shot in a world where technology is exploding and Muslim countries have access to the stuff is to get all their Road Map stuff done, get the peace, and hunker down in modified 1967 Borders.

9/09/2005 12:12:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

c4: Israel is also a nation with deep hooks into America's influential elites. It has managed to procure for it's wealthy citizens and it's peace bribe neighbors half of total US foreign aid. The aid for Israeli citizens alone, cumulatively, exceeds the present value of aid dollars given for the Marshall Plan.

THE MARSHALL PLAN (1947)

On June 5, 1947, Secretary of State George C. Marshall spoke at Harvard University and outlined what would become known as the Marshall Plan. Europe, still devastated by the war, had just survived one of the worst winters on record. The nations of Europe had nothing to sell for hard currency, and the democratic socialist governments in most countries were unwilling to adopt the draconian proposals for recovery advocated by old-line classical economists. Something had to be done, both for humanitarian reasons and also to stop the potential spread of communism westward.

The United States offered up to $20 billion for relief, but only if the European nations could get together and draw up a rational plan on how they would use the aid. For the first time, they would have to act as a single economic unit; they would have to cooperate with each other. Marshall also offered aid to the Soviet Union and its allies in eastern Europe, but Stalin denounced the program as a trick and refused to participate. The Russian rejection probably made passage of the measure through Congress possible.

The Marshall Plan, it should be noted, benefited the American economy as well. The money would be used to buy goods from the United States, and they had to be shipped across the Atlantic on American merchant vessels. But it worked. By 1953 the United States had pumped in $13 billion, and Europe was standing on its feet again. Moreover, the Plan included West Germany, which was thus reintegrated into the European community. (The aid was all economic; it did not include military aid until after the Korean War.)

Aside from helping to put Europe back on its feet, the Marshall Plan led to the Schuman Plan, which in turn led to Euratom, then the Coal and Iron Community and the Common Market, and pointed to what may yet evolve into an economically and politically united Europe. In many ways, the Marshall Plan satisfied both those who wanted our foreign policy to be generous and idealistic and those who demanded realpolitik; it helped feed the starving and shelter the homeless, and at the same time stopped the spread of communism and put the European economy back on its feet.

For further reading: John Gimbel, The Origins of the Marshall Plan (1976); Imanuel Wexler, The Marshall Plan Revisited (1983); Michael Hogan, The Marshall Plan (1987).


so what is your point? yes america is benefiting from investing from israel, america is creating american jobs and raising the level of the lake for both the usa and israel, aint that a shame, that when america invests in the people of israel, america gets rewarded?

9/10/2005 01:24:00 PM  

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