Tuesday, September 13, 2005

Write For Your Life

Most everyone knows someone who has intentionally endured a slight or injustice to demonstrate, to all the world, that they are indeed the aggrieved party. We have heard them describe the elaborate fantasies: 'then everyone will see' ... 'it will be undeniable that I' ... 'it will be clear that he', as they imagine themselves established in the right by the bestial behavior of the Other. In fact, no one gives a shit. People who willingly endure humiliation in the expectation of justification wind up with the humiliation sans the justification.

The two most common reasons given for the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza were that it would shorten Israeli defense lines and prove to all the world that Israel was willing to make concessions for peace and therefore confer upon it the 'moral high ground'. Of the two expected benefits, only the benefits of shortened defense lines will be realized. As to achieving the moral high ground, let us turn to the Times of London.

Pillars of fire lit up the night sky even before the last Israeli tanks rolled out before dawn yesterday, as thousands of Palestinians swarmed into the forsaken settlements and youths set fire to synagogues and other symbols of the hated occupation. ... The Palestinian Authority accused Israel of cynically leaving the synagogues standing to make Palestinians look bad for demolishing them.

Ariel Sharon forgot the single most important fact of the media age, a fact that generations of Israelis had heretofore always remembered: that the mantle of victimhood belongs, not to the aggrieved, but to whoever can point the finger of accusation most vigorously. One of the most powerful properties of representation is that it transforms perception. It can make a city Mayor with hundreds of buses at his disposal into a supplicant wholly dependent on outside help to evacuate his constituents; it can transform Todd Beamer's heroic stand against Islamic hijackers into a Crescent of Embrace facing Mecca. It can transform reality so completely that, in the case of Gaza, it is the Jews who are ultimately responsible for the destruction of the synagogues because they left them standing. Were it not for the Internet, which has made it possible to revive the classic military memoir in the form of milblogs, the public would have no more idea of the battle against terror than they do of the whys and wherefores of synagogue burnings in Gaza.

The Pointing Finger points; and, having pointed,
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.
-- with apologies to Omar Khayyam

100 Comments:

Blogger Dymphna said...

Since the Palestinians will always accuse Israel for something -- it's really rage that the Zionist entity exists at all -- those who stand with Israel find the Palestinian complaints about as factual as anything the mayor of New Orleans has to say.

Those who stand with the Palestinians (or who simply stand against Israel and Palestine is a handy club) will transform Israel's actions into personification-of-evil.

Being a member of the former group, I continue to believe that Israel's removal from Gaza was smart chess and about 3 moves ahead of its adversaries...

If America could act with half the clarity of purpose and directness that Israel does -- we could start, say, with I's passenger profiling that has prevented their 9/11-like morning -- we'd be better off.

We wouldn't be any more hated than we already are, but we'd be safer.

(For purposes of reviewing it,I was sent an advance copy of Annie Jacobsen's book about her experiences on a flight to LAX and am thoroughly pissed at our bureaucratic incompetence. It's amazing we're still here)

9/13/2005 04:01:00 AM  
Blogger tckurd said...

I saw them burning the sites on the news, and the only image that came into my mind was that of Arthur C. Clarke's intro to 2001: Space Odyssey. You remember it, all the apes were running around screaming and beating their chests. And then they beat each other with the bones of their deceased.

Yes... that seems to me to be about right.

9/13/2005 04:08:00 AM  
Blogger erp said...

"Right makes Might" and all the pretty words in the world won't change that either.

Israel shouldn't have been stopped from crushing the Arabs when they were attacked forty years ago. If they had finished them off then, a Pax Israeliana would have descended and the Middle East would be a garden instead of a cesspool.

The situation won't change by making concessions and building walls. The comparison to apes dancing and whooping it up in the movie 2001 and the Arabs performing the same dance in 2005 is apt. The apes had no idea what they were doing no less than the Arabs do.

In movie, at least, there was a hint the apes would evolve and become men, I hold out no such hope for the newly minted Palestinians nor any of their co-religionists.

9/13/2005 04:34:00 AM  
Blogger wretchard said...

Israelis should be less worried than Arabs. After all, there's a wall between what's left of Israel and the looters. The synagogue burning is, from one point of view, nothing but a mirror held up to the foppish visage so carefully coiffed and perfumed by the UN and the European Union these fifty years. If I were a Palestinian, I would sue the hairdresser.

Seriously. Arabs are men like any other; what they have become today after the ministrations of Arafat and the International Left would put the the best efforts of Dr. Moreau to shame.

9/13/2005 04:40:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

I had nightmares all weekend what would happen the the shuls in gaza.. I sweated and tossed and turned what would happen the moment the swarms of palestinians came in to plunder..

The I saw the news, the arab swarms looting, dancing, setting fires to jewish worship places, old men with chisels and hammers and carts loaded with bricks, young men stripping the green houses of plastic sheeting, tubing and more..

Hamas and Fatah flags everywhere, moslems praying in front of the flames..

and then 2 kassams shot off into Israel..

(cut scene to the philadelpha border) palestinians swarming into and out of egypt, digging tunnels under walls, storming back and forth by the hundreds, egyptians standing there like deer caught in the headlight..


my nightmares and fears were laid to rest, I had the BEST laugh I've had in months! I feared the Palestinians would march peacefully into gaza, holding hands, marching up to those 24 shuls, placing police guards there to protect them until the could be dismantled or converted into other uses. I feared peaceful rallys of Palestinians protesting the Israelis leaving and calling for them to "come to palestine" and be equal citizens. I had fears the palestinians would act like human beings (not human animals ((everyone has 2 souls, an animal soul and a higher human soul) I feared the palestinians would actually be civil..

now I know my fears will NOT be realized, I can relax after the arabs NEVER miss an opportunity to miss and opportunity..

9/13/2005 04:54:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

arabs never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity

9/13/2005 04:58:00 AM  
Blogger wretchard said...

I can see how some might argue that Palestinians have become what the Jews have made them. Strangely enough, this is an insult to the Arabs. Many countries have historically endured occupation far longer than the West Bank or Gaza. Pick any country in Asia, Latin America or Africa. How many Anglican Churches are there in India? Nothing the Raj could do could change a Gandhi into an Arafat. Are Arabs so malleable that a handful of Jews can make them something they are not? If we start regarding the Palestinians as men like other men and hold them to the same standards we will accomplish two things: utter the greatest Liberal heresy possible and treat them as equals.

9/13/2005 05:10:00 AM  
Blogger rhhardin said...

I identify it as not the transformative effect of symbols, which is more general, but as a tendency to soap opera, which is the trick of a commercial operation, news by name.

The anti-transformative move is ridicule of the audience for it, rather than brooding over symbolism in general.

There are positive things about symbolism, like the joy of finding the right word.

Vicki Hearne's claiming that poetry was the realm of truth rather than justice ( Bandit penultimate paragraph) might apply, and justice would in a way follow.

9/13/2005 05:32:00 AM  
Blogger Papa Bear said...

re Wretchard's comment "Nothing the Raj could do could change a Gandhi into an Arafat"

Gandhi was not running a welfare state. The big issue with the Palestinian-controlled areas is not so much that they are poor, but that there is no business and industry. The "refugees" seems to exist on handouts from various Muslim charities in an environment of corruption and violence that is not conducive to running any sort of business.

Actually, there is one major business: the Palestinians are engaged in a pathological form of performance art, in the pay of the people who send them money.

9/13/2005 05:49:00 AM  
Blogger Ray said...

Presumably, deaths of Israeli citizens at the hands of suicide bombers are the fault of the Israeli government, which, by not killing the victims directly, left them alive to be killed by the bomber in a classic case of entrapment. Pity the poor bomber who is a dupe in Sharon's evil scheme to paint the Palestinians as blood-thirsty and politically immature.

9/13/2005 05:59:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Holy Scolders .
This is the France 2 that brought us the Mohamed Al-Dura "death" scene, the blood libel that kicked off these long years of murder and maiming of Israeli civilians. That day, September 30, 2000, at Netzarim junction, France 2 stringer Tala Abu Rahmé was in the right place at the right time. Thanks to his too-good-to-be-true scoop, the whole world was fed the Jews-are-child-killers story. The repercussions are global and enduring.
Muslims can beat up Jews in French streets and schools, burn synagogues and kosher butcher shops, without stinging the French conscience.
I have a suggestion:
Instead of explaining kashrut to a ham hock, the Israeli holy scolders should come over here and make a film about France, its ills and misdeeds, its failings and disappointments, its untroubled conscience that takes a handful of NGOs for G-d's gift to the world, its Salafist mosques and anti-Semitic comics, its pacifism funded by Saddam's oil money, its anti-Americanism fed by bitter jealousy, its Pravda press and defenseless borders...
But don't expect the special report to be aired on French television.
Holy scolders are not kosher if they turn their scorn on France.

9/13/2005 06:07:00 AM  
Blogger Aristides said...

If we start regarding the Palestinians as men like other men and hold them to the same standards we will accomplish two things: utter the greatest Liberal heresy possible and treat them as equals.

Oh, but we no longer see men as morally autonomous. Standing to come before the tribunal of the Left--where redistributive redress and ideological injunction are bandied about with a cynical eye--is granted only to the well-organized victim group that speaks truth to power. These new pockets of political consequence are composed of men all too happy to trade their own individual interests for the newfangled glory of anger in defeat, supplicants and petitioners drawn to Stereotype's crescent of embrace, surprised when they find themselves in shackles instead.

9/13/2005 06:11:00 AM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

Wretchard - A fairer distinction can be made than the Brits and India. That is a colonial period in which the Brits had numerous structures and systems built the Indians lacked before, run by 12,000 Brits backed by a military of no more than 30,000 at peak Brits over a Subcontinent of 600 million. Sepoy mutiny aside, snotty class behavior aside, the British period in India was peaceful and progressive - and the Indians wisely kept much of the British institutions they inherited intact.

A more accurate comparison might be the fate of the Shinto Temples and shrines the Japanese military or Jap colonists built in Korea, China, SE Asia, the Philippines. Under a brutal military occupation meant to secure resources and lebensraum to the Yamoto Race.

If I'm not mistaken, every one of those Shinto constructions or other manifestations of Jap rule were torn down.

The Israelis were careful. Their Gaza colonists had seized the choicest 1/3rd of the Gaza Strip and used the IDF to run off the original owners into overcrowded cities. Backed by 15-20,000 IDF troops, the 7500 colonists led the good life in beachfront condos that cost 1/8th as much as the ones up by Haifa and Tel Aviv. Riskier living, but one in which the troops killed many more Gazans in retaliation for any killing of the Israeli colonists. And dished out a little more humiliation on the Pals, year by year.

When the security and economics factors led Israel to conclude it was time to leave, they carefully disassembled things of value and trucked them back into Israel proper. What they could not take back economically, they blew up. All the condos, the military outposts.

But they left the synogogues standing knowing the Pals would do to them what the Chinese, Indonesians, Filipinos, Koreans, etc. did to the abandoned Shinto shrines.

Then filmed their destruction and cried about how "anti-semitic" Pals trashing the buildings were.

It was a PR setup.

erp - Israel shouldn't have been stopped from crushing the Arabs when they were attacked forty years ago.If they had finished them off then, a Pax Israeliana would have descended and the Middle East would be a garden instead of a cesspool.

First, Israel wasn't attacked 40 years ago. They hit first. As they did in 1956 and 1948. Only the degree of provocation over the threatened blockade of the straits of Tihran is an issue. Only in America do Zionists still push the lie that Israel was attacked 1st. But even here, our textbooks are being revised to reflect real history, not Zionist propaganda. "Provocation" is something that can always be made into a legally sound reason to start a war. The Nazis were very careful to detail dozens of legal reasons why the Soviets had subverted and negated the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact before they invaded. The Nazi declaration of War on the US accurately noted that the US had violated the Neutrality Pact and had actively attacked German forces since late 1940. (Yale's Avalon Project has the Declarations on line).

As for Israel "finishing off" Jordan, Syria, Egypt and trying to rule 140 million deeply hostile people "from the Nile to the Euphrates".......can you say "Imperial Over-reach"??



When

9/13/2005 06:14:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Gandhi could not have beaten the Israelis, an honorable man he would not have lasted a fortnight. Acting the straw man for the KSA and dancing on the end of a puppeteers string would never have been acceptable, to him.
He would never have called for the "Elimination" of Israel, just co-existence, and that solution, has, to date, been found unacceptable. The real leaders of the Palistinians, the ones that pay rhe bills, do not want a 'real' Peace breaking out between the factions.
Judging by both actions and results, I am beginning to think that includes US.

9/13/2005 06:16:00 AM  
Blogger RWE said...

Of course, the Wall between Israel and the Palestinians is a great idea - one that we should consider emulating in the U.S. But one side benefit is amusement.
When the wall's impact began to be felt, it was explained that it was grossly unfair for Joe Palestinian to have to walk so far to get to a gate in the Wall so that he could get to WORK, receive HEALTHCARE, or participate in the other benefits of a free society.
Is that hilarious or what?
And people made this argument in all seriousness.

9/13/2005 06:22:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

"These new pockets of political consequence are composed of men all too happy to trade their own individual interests for the newfangled glory of anger in defeat, supplicants and petitioners drawn to Stereotype's crescent of embrace, surprised when they find themselves in shackles instead. "
---
Or waiting for a schoolbus in New Orleans.

9/13/2005 06:36:00 AM  
Blogger wretchard said...

Cedarford,

The colonial history of Asia and Africa is replete with examples of oppression vastly worse than anything the Jews may have inflicted in Gaza or the West Bank. The Opium Wars. Slavery. Unit 713. Nanking. Manchuria. The Congo. The International Settlements. Apartheid in South Africa. Yet a Japanese might visit China. There are white men in the Congo. There are whites in South Africa. Say what you will about Mugabe, there are whites in Zimbabwe.

Some will say we should feel sorry for the Israelis. But to be fair, we should be sorrier for the Arabs. Gaza is a judgement on them. Every building they burn, everything they smash is their loss. It is no longer what the Jew has done them. It is what they are doing to themselves.

Even the PR setup you speak of is terribly sad. Ariel Sharon left the synagogues intact in the same way you might leave a rope for someone you were sure would hang himself at the earliest opportunity. The Israeli papers themselves speculated as much. The PA could read the papers as well as anyone; then they went and did it.

9/13/2005 06:53:00 AM  
Blogger PDS said...

Wretchard: your second to the last comment is the most cogent of all: let's treat Arabs as equals, and the much of the rest of this confusion falls away.

9/13/2005 07:00:00 AM  
Blogger Sophia Phoster said...

The Palestinian "situation" is the best run public relations campaign in modern history. Emotion laden phrases that bear very little relationship to the facts on the ground are used routinely by even the Israeli media. "Refugee camp" for towns and urban neighborhoods that are indistinguishable from any other, "freedom fighter" for suicide bombers that kill the easiest targets indiscriminately, "border" and "occupation" for cease fire lines of wars of aggression, and on and on.

I wish somebody would do an account of the battle of Jenin and the way it was reported by Arab, American and European press and television. The Israelis lost soldiers because they fought to minimize public relations blowback. What did that get them? Maybe two honest columns and more dead soldiers. I hope they don't make that mistake again.

I hope I live to see the day that the Dome of the Rock is demolished and the rubble thrown into the sea.

9/13/2005 07:13:00 AM  
Blogger Jeff said...

It's hard to understand the Palestinians. They cheer for destruction, they are happy to dance among the rubble.

9/13/2005 07:18:00 AM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

Wretchard writes: Nothing the Raj could do could change a Gandhi into an Arafat"

It is proper to think of Ghandi as an important historical figure, but fortunately for India, not the ONLY historical figure of note and pacifism NOT the only Indian way.

It is no accident that the Hindu caste system awards the Kshatriya caste of warriors 2nd highest status, 2nd only to the Brahman priesthood caste. Throughout India's history, military service is deemed both honorable and privileged. Outside the Hindi caste system, clearly the Muslim Mogols place great import on matters of war and military skills. So too the Sikhs.

In modern India, Gandhi is considered a great but very flawed figure, and his pacifism appropriate in certain situations (the Salt mine march, etc. against British rule) and highly inappropriate in others (how he dealt with Hindu massacres in Partition, his inability to check Mohammed Ali Jinnah).

http://koenraadelst.voiceofdharma.com/articles/fascism/gandhimistake.html

To be effective, pacifism must be offered as a viable alternative to it's bipolar counterpart....decisions accomplished via physical force. Gandhi's effectiveness was manifest with the Brits because he and the Brits knew there was an implicit choice - deal with Indian aspirations in by negotiating with pacifist forces, or do it by fighting a 2nd Sepoy mutiny. The Brits knew plenty of Arafats waited in the wings if Gandhi was completely stonewalled in his anti-colonialist aspirations. When pacifism is embraced as a all-encompassing philosophy, the only way, without the clear alternative of the people choosing violence, the wolves feast on the sheeps.

The classic mistake the Israelis made was in the early years of Occupation clubbing down Palestinian marches, insisting all petitions and grievances by decided by 100% Zionist courts and military commanders, and ruthlessly suppressing general strikes. If they had worked with constructive Palestinian forces, perhaps the present day would be different....but they suppressed all peaceful dissent and made their Occupation a stifling one of regulating key aspects of Palestinian life and then shoved 500,000 Colonists into Pal lands. If there were any nascent Gandhis, the Zionists ensured they were strangled in their cribs. Back then, in peak arrogance, the Zionists thought there was no need to negotiate - they had nukes, Muslims were too technologically backward to ever threaten Zionist land grabs, and they thought their American Lobby controlled America's ME foreign policy.

In America, we can judge the effectiveness of Martin Luther Kings pacifist approach. his work and goals, were aided considerably by what he said explicitly of implicitly in negotiations with American leaders. "My way, or you get the burning cities and riots as an alternative, so you better give me what I want."

If the Russians had met the Nazis with bouquets of flowers, German would have been the language from Scotland to the Urals. If partisan warfare against an Occupier that is resistant to any peaceful alternative is wrong, then almost every country that fought occupation joins Palestine as transgressors.

But thats not how the world thinks.

.

9/13/2005 07:21:00 AM  
Blogger Aristides said...

resistant to any peaceful alternative

I suppose you missed the 90's. Palestinian pacifism is a fun idea, but it hasn't proved very viable, has it? Armed resistance against an occupier is one way of looking at it; petulant anarchy is another. Lost in this debate is the historical and decent imperative: it is the duty of civilization to conquer those who cannot govern themselves. It is the way forward, it is noble, and it will be forever so.

Progressives, in their rush to be sophisticated, lose sight of this fact. To believe in progress, one must believe in better. There is a difference between the Israelis and the Palestinians. It is not a difference of degree, and it is not a difference of power. It is a difference of kind.

9/13/2005 08:04:00 AM  
Blogger Charles said...

Seriously. Arabs are men like any other; what they have become today after the ministrations of Arafat and the International Left would put the the best efforts of Dr. Moreau to shame.

4:40 AM

////////////////
yak, I really liked that movie "Island of Dr. Moreau" when it came out. I mean the more recent one with Marlon Brando & Val Kilmer

9/13/2005 08:10:00 AM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

Wretchard -

You bring up accessibility. Your examples are white men in the Congo, Japanese visiting China, remnant (declining every year) white populations in S Africa and Zimbabwe.

I guess as a counterpoint to Jews being unwelcome in areas they once occupied or nations supporting the Palestinian's case. There is of course big-time wailing about the "anti-Semitism" of nations that boycott Israel and do not welcome Israelis....but hidden in those cries is the truth that Israel actively practices religious discrimination - welcoming any Jew from any nation, but barring the door to the Palestinians of the Christian or Muslim faith, and Muslim visitors
from any nation.

Both sides are engaged in the same practices...and if we look who was first to be exclusionary, it was the Zionists in 1948, followed by Arab retaliation.

While Japanese tourists and businessmen are indeed welcome in China, Korea, and Taiwan THESE days, for a few decades after WWII their presence was unthinkable, even as limited trade went on. It was a decade or so before West Germans were welcome in many sections of Europe after WWII. There are still many places in Russia a wise German might wish to avoid.

And that is, like with the Congo, a matter where cultural traditions are not per se automatically aligned against the outsider - the xenophobic gaijin, goyim, infidel traditions...It gets worse in lands where "purity" is big.

The problem between the Zionists and the Muslims are compounded by both camps willingly engaging in ethnic cleansing, assigning higher rights to their kind (the purity factor), and not welcoming outsiders.

For all the whining about Jews not being welcome in Arab lands, peace with Egypt has produced travel and business ties. Turkey is tolerant of Jews. And Zionists complaining of exclusion of Jews elsewhere have to deal with their rigid exclusion of the 700,000 unwanted Muslim and Christian Palestinians they cleansed in 1948 from even visiting their former homeland.

Zionists are quick to point out they didn't cleanse the remaining 20% of the non-Jews ---but that was only because they did NOT have the power to do a complete cleansing and achieve the 100% pure, goyim- free Israel the Zionist philosophy sought through the euphemism "Transfer". After 1948, if they had tried a complete cleansing, the UN, even the USA, would not have put up with it, and would have prompty strangled Israel with a complete economic boycott.

It wasn't too long ago that an American or a Jew could freely walk around most of the Muslim World. Do business there. Perhaps not a total welcome mat given the "infidel" taboos, but free to be there without fear of violence. In the 70's, it was still safer for an American to walk around a Saudi or Iranian city than an American one.

If Israel gets to it's final borders, pays for land and property it stole, and foreswears Zionist expansion and colonialism in return for Arab state recognition and an end to them supporting extremists, perhaps in a few decades Jews might be welcome again elsewhere. Perhaps a few Christians might be allowed back on land the Zionists ripped off from their ancestors. Perhaps then too, Americans might be welcome back in the Ummah as friends, not enemies under the influence of Zionism.

9/13/2005 08:18:00 AM  
Blogger Hanba'al said...

C4,

Japanese civilians did not accompany Japanese troops in all occupations to establish long term residence. Japanese occupation is mainly military conquest and using force labor from the locals. Building Shinto Temple got to be a myth like the Zionist myth that I found soda straw view people got hooked into regularly. The fact is no Shinto temple built in Vietnam during Japanese occupation, hence no destruction ever occured. Where did you get your source?

9/13/2005 08:40:00 AM  
Blogger Annoy Mouse said...

When the rhetoric of victimhood casts its shame upon me I find it useful to let those know, that I don’t respect them, could care less what they think, and when the shooting starts, I am going to kill them. This may seem a bit dramatic, but as long as my rhetorical opponent gets the picture that their condemnation and blame sot aspersions are not going to effect me, then we can peacefully discuss the merits of the issue, or plan openly each others utter destruction. I guess I am not known for my subtle diplomacy in matters of Nagin, Reagan, and Bush.

Appeasement is tautological. Let the nihilists know that when they drag the beast down, it will be them trapped by the collapsing hulk.

9/13/2005 08:51:00 AM  
Blogger Karridine said...

Sic 'im, Lan!

Yeah, where DID you source that, C4?

9/13/2005 08:57:00 AM  
Blogger Rick Ballard said...

There is a possibility that Pali nihilism could draw Egypt into the Gaza to impose an Arab solution. It would be meet and just for the world to watch Egyptians deal with the Pali using time honored methods.

Now if Jordan would just present a Hashemite claim to the West Bank and Abdullah show the gentle restraint that his father did in dealing with vermin, the Pali problem might, if not disappear, at least be mitigated.

At least that solution would get the UNHRC out of the area and allow a generation or two to be raised on something other than lies.

9/13/2005 09:20:00 AM  
Blogger pragmatist said...

Cedarford suggested:

"If the Russians had met the Nazis with bouquets of flowers, German would have been the language from Scotland to the Urals."

Like the vast majority
of the crap you have
written this is factually
incorrect.

The Russians did exactly
that. They hated their
communist leaders.

That you didn't realize
this fact is not surprising.

You have swallowed the
left wing propaganda
lies completely.

Are you congentally
stupid? Are your parents are closely related?
Brother and Sister?

Or are you simply a lying
sack of manure?

Check out a reputable
history of WWII since you
won't believe me.

Not something that
Chomsky or Said wrote.

And as to the gentle
British Raj ... look
up something named the
Sepoy Rebellion.

I guess tying Indians
to cannon barrels and
then firing them is
wonderfully good
sport to you.

What a major class
moron you are!

9/13/2005 09:41:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

c4: The Israelis were careful. Their Gaza colonists had seized the choicest 1/3rd of the Gaza Strip and used the IDF to run off the original owners into overcrowded cities.

please be specific. who are these original owners? The Ottoman Empire? or the British? or the Egyptians

What was the population you claim to be displaced in this tiny area of jews?

please name, in Gaza, any Village/Town that was replaced by Jews

If the land was so choice, what was displaced? What was there? A nice mall perhaps? An industrial zone making state of the art electronics? Was there a waterslide? Parks? Skyscrapers? were there even parking lots? or Cars???

hmm... gaza 1966... a back ass, sandy no mans land called Mawaat - these are dead lands, rocky barren areas, wind swept hill tops, wadis, and yes sand dunes.. are and were public lands.

After all, Abbas has BACKED this up saying 99% of all of these lands are the STATEs... Not individuals property.

your 1st point is crap....

9/13/2005 09:54:00 AM  
Blogger Charles said...

pragmatist said...
Cedarford suggested:

"If the Russians had met the Nazis with bouquets of flowers, German would have been the language from Scotland to the Urals."

Like the vast majority
of the crap you have
written this is factually
incorrect.

The Russians did exactly
that. They hated their
communist leaders.
///////////////
My Third grade teacher in Ft Ord California was Miss Arrinsburger. She was Estonian. Her family escaped Estonia after WWII. She was bright and sweet. She loved her class. I loved her back. She said the Estonians threw flowers at the feet of the Nazis when they drove out the Russians. The Nazis in their turn slaughtered the Estonians. She gave the impression that whereas the communists were wittingly evil-- the nazis were stupid and brutal. This is the opposite of the current received judgement of the two dictatorships.

9/13/2005 09:57:00 AM  
Blogger Pascal Fervor said...

Pragmatist:

The very best advice I can give you comes from scriptures whether or not you believe in God.

"the LORD will have war with Amalek from generation to generation." (Exo 17:16)

Calling moron those who display the aspects of Amalek leaves you inadequate to the threat you face.

It causes you and those who would follow you to underestimate your mortal adversary.

9/13/2005 09:59:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

c4: Then filmed their destruction and cried about how "anti-semitic" Pals trashing the buildings were. It was a PR setup.

The palestinians COULD have simply taken control of the area and bulldozed the structures, but no, they looted and Prayed in front of 4 of them as they burned them to the ground... yep, a PR setup.. Would this behavior not be illegal USA? I dare say,those looting arsonists would be convicted in any US court. How many Palestinians have been arrested for arson? looting?

When the Jews Liberated the temple mount in 1967 did they burn the dome of the rock down? Did they set up a new Temple on the mount? do christians and moslems not own thousands of buildings in israel?

9/13/2005 09:59:00 AM  
Blogger Fabio said...

Cedarford - and many like him - seems to think that Israel has to bear a special original sin: having displaced a certain number of people who were living on the same stretches of land.

But this original sin is far from unique; it would be closer to reality to say that any nation carries an original sin of birth.

But for complex reasons this argument is brought forward only for Israel and the USA.

9/13/2005 10:07:00 AM  
Blogger neo-neocon said...

None of it surprising, all of it depressing.

The chess match Dymphna mentions is a point of view I ascribe to, also--the Israelis had run out of options in Gaza and withdrawal was the only one that made sense. The consequences aren't pretty, but they were predictable.

The destructive element in Palestinian society is starting to feed on itself. Whether the world will ultimately see the terrible way in which Palestinian propaganda has manipulated world opinion for all these years, causing Palestinian society to be dedicated to destructive rage rather than constructive building, remains to be seen.

Whether the Western apologists for the Palestinians will ever stop feeding the monster with excuses and enabling also remains to be seen. At the moment, I am not feeling hopeful.

9/13/2005 10:11:00 AM  
Blogger Fabio said...

But for the moment forget about the synagogues.

The Palestinians also proceeded to loot and render unusable the sophisticated and productive greenhouses that were left behind.

This behaviour is deeply stupid to say the least.

9/13/2005 10:11:00 AM  
Blogger enscout said...

Papa Bear
RE;
The "refugees" seems to exist on handouts from various Muslim charities in an environment of corruption and violence that is not conducive to running any sort of business.
You could easily be talking about any US city's welfare population - only substitute "US government" for "Mulsim charities".

9/13/2005 10:24:00 AM  
Blogger Mastiff said...

Just to make sure everyone is on the same page...

Our dear friend Cedarford is darkening the comments section here again after he was banned from Ace of Spades "with extreme prejudice" for his *ahem* unorthodox views on ethnicity.

I notice he hasn't said much about the greenhouses. After all, he wouldn't want to imagine that what we're seeing is simply anarchy, and not a purposeful repudiation of the huuuumiliation by the Joooos....

9/13/2005 10:25:00 AM  
Blogger JohnnyCanuck said...

Would this behavior not be illegal USA? I dare say,those looting arsonists would be convicted in any US court. How many Palestinians have been arrested for arson? looting?

We'll see how many of the black looters in New Orleans get arrested, including the police officers who were photographed walking off with their new DVD collections. I guess they were essential items for surviving the flood!

It's fascinating to me how American neocons who talk about Palestinians as if they were subhuman are quick to shout "racist" at anyone who speaks similarly of blacks. Neocons even led the "high-tech lynching" of Trent Lott for his innocuous remarks a few years back. Yet where were they when Dick Armey made far worse remarks about cleansing Palestinians?

The synagogues should have been bulldozed by the Israelis before leaving. It's not as if they were historical buildings like the Serb churches being destroyed by Albanians in Kosovo and "Bosniaks" in Srebrenica to the silence of the same Americans who are getting all upset about the Gaza synagogues.

9/13/2005 10:38:00 AM  
Blogger Ex-Manissean said...

The reason the synagogues were not destroyed by the Israeli's is not because they wanted the Pali's to look bad. Its simpler than that, Jewish Law forbids Jews to harm or destroy synagogues. The military did not want to force IDF soldiers to commit what they may think is a sin.

9/13/2005 10:41:00 AM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

ngyen -

The Japanese had Shinto shrines at their Naval and Army bases in Indochina. Every base had a Shinto shrine.

None were left standing by 1946.

And the Japanese began colonizing as part of their Greater Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere plan, and planned more as they consolidated their hold on other countries. Manchouko had colonies. More were planned for later due to the crowded conditions of the home islands and the need for civilian rule over "lesser" Asian races industry by "superior" Japanese civilians. During the active part of WWII, they kept their people busy in the war effort at home. Just like the Germans. Settlers were for post-conquest times. Lebensraum was supposed to come after pacification, with movement of colonial Settlements into occupied lands.

It took Israel 13 years before they began moving Zionist colonists into the Occupied lands of Palestine in ernest. Perhaps the Germans and Japanese would have pursued their lebensraum policies faster if they had won WWII....I don't know.

Pragmatist, in your asinine version of the history of WWII, you fail to distinguish between Ukrainians, Lithuanians and Russians. Many suppressed by the Bolsheviks welcomed the Nazis, but the general tendency was resistance, else 23 million dead Russians wouldn't be an historical fact.

The truth remains. If pacifism was the only tool the Soviets had, their survivors would be German-speakers today.

9/13/2005 10:51:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

The synagogues should have been bulldozed by the Israelis before leaving. It's not as if they were historical buildings like the Serb churches being destroyed by Albanians in Kosovo and "Bosniaks" in Srebrenica to the silence of the same Americans who are getting all upset about the Gaza synagogues.

what about Joseph's tomb? how freaking long was that there? can we say 2400 freakin YEARS and the hoards of palestinians used PICK axes to take out the rocks from the ground and then painted it green for islam...

yes the gaza synagogues were not old, nor do I hold the palestinain bulldozer driver in contempt, it was the LOOTING and BURING and PRAYING and SCREAMING by the population I refered too, I did not condemn the razing of the other 17 shuls by bulldozers

9/13/2005 10:59:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

c4: It took Israel 13 years before they began moving Zionist colonists into the Occupied lands of Palestine in ernest.

one must wonder why the arabs refused to take BACK gaza and the west back after 1967

hmmm, could it be? the ARABS DID NOT WANT PEACE

hmmm, could we say the ONLY reason Israel got STUCK with the land was the ARAB WORLD refused to TAKE the LAND BACK and MAKE PEACE?????

c4, you rewrite history like everything is today that was, go back in time...

sit down...

breath deep...

can you remember 1967, the war over, you say the israeli's fired the 1st shot,

I say:

Major Arab Terrorist Attacks against Israelis Prior to the 1967 Six-Day War

Jan 1, 1952 - Seven armed terrorists attacked and killed a nineteen year-old girl in her home, in the neighborhood of Beit Yisrael, in Jerusalem.

Apr 14, 1953 - Terrorists tried for the first time to infiltrate Israel by sea, but were unsuccessful. One of the boats was intercepted and the other boat escaped.

June 7, 1953 - A youngster was killed and three others were wounded, in shooting attacks on residential areas in southern Jerusalem.

June 9, 1953 - Terrorists attacked a farming community near Lod, and killed one of the residents. The terrorists threw hand grenades and sprayed gunfire in all directions. On the same night, another group of terrorists attacked a house in the town of Hadera. This occurred a day after Israel and Jordan signed an agreement, with UN mediation, in which Jordan undertook to prevent terrorists from crossing into Israel from Jordanian territory.

June 10, 1953 - Terrorists infiltrating from Jordan destroyed a house in the farming village of Mishmar Ayalon.

June 11, 1953 - Terrorists attacked a young couple in their home in Kfar Hess, and shot them to death.

Sept 2, 1953 - Terrorists infiltrated from Jordan, and reached the neighborhood of Katamon, in the heart of Jerusalem. They threw hand grenades in all directions. Miraculously, no one was hurt.

Mar 17, 1954 - Terrorists ambushed a bus traveling from Eilat to Tel Aviv, and opened fire at short range when the bus reached the area of Maale Akrabim in the northern Negev. In the initial ambush, the terrorists killed the driver and wounded most of the passengers. The terrorists then boarded the bus, and shot each passenger, one by one. Eleven passengers were murdered. Survivors recounted how the murderers spat on the bodies and abused them. The terrorists could clearly be traced back to the Jordanian border, some 20 km from the site of the terrorist attack.

Jan 2, 1955 - Terrorists killed two hikers in the Judean Desert.

Mar 24, 1955 - Terrorists threw hand grenades and opened fire on a crowd at a wedding in the farming community of Patish, in the Negev. A young woman was killed, and eighteen people were wounded in the attack.

Apr 7, 1956 - A resident of Ashkelon was killed in her home, when terrorists threw three hand grenades into her house.
Two members of Kibbutz Givat Chaim were killed, when terrorists opened fire on their car, on the road from Plugot Junction to Mishmar Hanegev.
There were further hand grenade and shooting attacks on homes and cars, in areas such as Nitzanim and Ketziot. One person was killed and three others wounded.

Apr 11, 1956 - Terrorists opened fire on a synagogue full of children and teenagers, in the farming community of Shafrir. Three children and a youth worker were killed on the spot, and five were wounded, including three seriously.

Apr 29, 1956 - Egyptians killed Roi Rotenberg, 21 years of age, from Nahal Oz.

Sept 12, 1956 - Terrorists killed three Druze guards at Ein Ofarim, in the Arava region.

Sept 23, 1956 - Terrorists opened fire from a Jordanian position, and killed four archaeologists, and wounded sixteen others, near Kibbutz Ramat Rachel.

Sept 24, 1956 - Terrorists killed a girl in the fields of the farming community of Aminadav, near Jerusalem.

Oct 4, 1956 - Five Israeli workers were killed in Sdom.

Oct 9, 1956 - Two workers were killed in an orchard of the youth village, Neve Hadassah, in the Sharon region.

Nov 8, 1956 - Terrorists opened fire on a train, attacked cars and blew up wells, in the North and Center of Israel. Six Israelis were wounded.

Feb 18, 1957 - Two civilians were killed by terrorist landmines, next to Nir Yitzhak, on the southern border of the Gaza Strip.

Mar 8, 1957 - A shepherd from Kibbutz Beit Govrin was killed by terrorists in a field near the Kibbutz.

Apr 16, 1957 - Terrorists infiltrated from Jordan, and killed two guards at Kibbutz Mesilot.

May 20, 1957 - A terrorist opened fire on a truck in the Arava region, killing a worker.

May 29, 1957 - A tractor driver was killed and two others wounded, when the vehicle struck a landmine, next to Kibbutz Kisufim.

June 23, 1957 - Israelis were wounded by landmines, close to the Gaza Strip.

Aug 23, 1957 - Two guards of the Israeli Mekorot water company were killed near Kibbutz Beit Govrin.

Dec 21, 1957 - A member of Kibbutz Gadot was killed in the Kibbutz fields.

Feb 11, 1958 - Terrorists killed a resident of Moshav Yanov who was on his way to Kfar Yona, in the Sharon area.

Apr 5, 1958 - Terrorists lying in ambush shot and killed two people near Tel Lachish.

Apr 22, 1958 - Jordanian soldiers shot and killed two fishermen near Aqaba.

May 26, 1958 - Four Israeli police officers were killed in a Jordanian attack on Mt. Scopus, in Jerusalem.

Nov 17, 1958 - Syrian terrorists killed the wife of the British air attache in Israel, who was staying at the guesthouse of the Italian Convent on the Mt. of the Beatitudes.

Dec 3, 1958- A shepherd was killed at Kibbutz Gonen. In the artillery attack that followed, 31 civilians were wounded.

Jan 23, 1959 - A shepherd from Kibbutz Lehavot Habashan was killed.

Feb 1, 1959 - Three civilians were killed by a terrorist landmine near Moshav Zavdiel.

Apr 15, 1959 - A guard was killed at Kibbutz Ramat Rahel.

Apr 27, 1959 - Two hikers were shot at close range and killed near Massada.

Sept 6, 1959 - Bedouin terrorists killed a paratroop reconnaissance officer near Nitzana.

Sept 8, 1959 - Bedouins opened fire on an army bivouac in the Negev, killing an IDF officer, Captain Yair Peled.

Oct 3, 1959 - A shepherd from Kibbutz Heftziba was killed near Kibbutz Yad Hana.

Apr 26, 1960 - Terrorists killed a resident of Ashkelon south of the city.

Apr 12, 1962 - Terrorists fired on an Egged bus on the way to Eilat; one passenger was wounded.

Sept 30, 1962 - Two terrorists attacked an Egged bus on the way to Eilat. No one was wounded.

Jan 1, 1965 - Palestinian terrorists attempted to bomb the National Water Carrier. This was the first attack carried out by the PLO's Fatah faction.

May 31, 1965 - Jordanian Legionnaires fired on the neighborhood of Musrara in Jerusalem, killing two civilians and wounding four.

June 1, 1965 - Terrorists attack a house in Kibbutz Yiftach.

July 5, 1965 - A Fatah cell planted explosives at Mitzpe Massua, near Beit Guvrin; and on the railroad tracks to Jerusalem near Kafr Battir.

Aug 26, 1965 - A waterline was sabotaged at Kibbutz Manara, in the Upper Galilee.

Sept 29, 1965 - A terrorist was killed as he attempted to attack Moshav Amatzia.

Nov 7, 1965 - A Fatah cell that infiltrated from Jordan blew up a house in Moshav Givat Yeshayahu, south of Beit Shemesh. The house was destroyed, but the inhabitants were miraculously unhurt.

Apr 25, 1966 - Explosions placed by terrorists wounded two civilians and damaged three houses in Moshav Beit Yosef, in the Beit Shean Valley.

May 16, 1966 - Two Israelis were killed when their jeep hit a terrorist landmine, north of the Sea of Galilee and south of Almagor. Tracks led into Syria.

July 13, 1966 - Two soldiers and a civilian were killed near Almagor, when their truck struck a terrorist landmine.

July 14, 1966 - Terrorists attacked a house in Kfar Yuval, in the North.

July 19, 1966 - Terrorists infiltrated into Moshav Margaliot on the northern border and planted nine explosive charges.

Oct 27, 1966 - A civilian was wounded by an explosive charge on the railroad tracks to Jerusalem.

ok so the war was over, israel offered lands back (98%) and the arabs refused:

can you say....


Khartoum

can you say "arab league"

can you say the 3 nos.....

"no peace with Israel, no recognition of it, and no negotiation with it."

so why should israel give lands back to an arab world that would not even recognize it to exist?

9/13/2005 11:11:00 AM  
Blogger Justin Eldorado said...

The 2 reasons given for leaving Gaza are bullshit.....
the real reason is:

the Palestinian Entities (I've lost count of the number) will tear
themselves to pieces...which is really
a good idea...and highly entertaining!

9/13/2005 11:11:00 AM  
Blogger kstagger said...

Well researched Al-Dura Expose
Al-Dura Affair

9/13/2005 11:17:00 AM  
Blogger erp said...

Cedarford quibble if you like about which came first the chicken or the egg, but the fact is that Israel was attacked by a force far superior in number and they kicked a$$.

Unfortunately they were forced into what would become the Vietnam rules of engagement. Win a battle, retreat, win it again, retreat and so on. Now Israel has retreated into what they think are more defensible borders. Time will tell if that was a wise decision.

As for Israel ruling hundreds of millions of Arabs. That wouldn't be necessary. Arabs might not be smart, but they understand superior weapons and strength. After Israel defeated the only Moslem country, Egypt, with any kind of a viable military in six days, they would be content to wallow in the luxuries their oil brings them while Israel brings them all into the 21st century.

Gandhi was a pawn of the Communists who manipulated public opinion against the British and forced India to give a large portion of its territory to their Moslem population to stop the violence, but … they're still fighting because Moslems aren't satisfied with just Pakistan and Bangladesh, they want more Indian territory.

Some commenters above want us to treat Moslems the same as we treat any other men, but this will only be possible when Moslems present themselves as civilized people among other civilized people. Dressing a monkey in a tuxedo doesn't turn him into Cary Grant.

It's possible that a Moslem leader will emerge some day who will be able to modernize Islam and bring his people out of the bondage of 8th century ignorance and superstition, and when that day comes, we'll all be able to dance in the streets.

9/13/2005 11:22:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

c4:
It wasn't too long ago that an American or a Jew could freely walk around most of the Muslim World

sure...... can we say from the VERY creation of the "muslim" world it NEVER was safe...

Here is Mohammed's fine loving words:

Mohammed's anger and curses against the Jews are recorded in the Koran:

"And humiliation and wretchedness were stamped upon them, and they were visited with wrath from God."
"Of all men you will certainly find the Jews ... to be the most intense in hatred of those who believe."
"Vendors are they of error and are desirous that you go astray from the way ... But God has cursed them for their unbelief."

again, nice white wash of being a jew in an islamic lands....

please tell me, what time period of "free and safe" walking are you referring to?

Was it when Islam was born?

Walking free and safe in Medina? Naw, no jews allowed in the historic jewish city, no free and safe walking there...

Was it when the Islam had the Ottoman Empire?

Were you thinking of the 1940's?

Tell us, oh learned one, when could a jew walk in the arab world safe and free?

Pre-1967? Post 1967?

Pre- Gulf War 1 or Two?

When did I miss the great times walking safely in the arab world?

9/13/2005 11:49:00 AM  
Blogger pragmatist said...

gosh cedarford is mute on the
looting of the greenhouses.
not surprising.

I will concede him the point
that if the Russians tried
to use pacifism against the
Nazi's most of Europe would
be speaking German.

If you don't bother fighting
you lose immediately.

He ignores - or is too
stupid to understand what
others have posted - that
numerous "Russian Peoples"
DID greet the Nazi's with
flowers.

I realize it is pointless
to try to reason with folks
such as him. He has been
brainwashed into accepting
a dogma that has no basis
in reality. For him to
acknowledge that fact would
be to admit that his whole
intellectual framework is
a lie.

He is too cowardly to do so.

Or perhaps his Palestinian
Lover wouldn't sthup tonight
if he did that.

9/13/2005 12:24:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Why do I not expect a specific answer to Pork's 11:49 AM post?
Why am I wracked by such cynicism?
I have been victimised by my own mind.
Woe is me.
Send MRE's, Water, and Greyhounds to doug if you want to prove you are not all racists.
(I'll spit on the MRE's since they are proof of your racism.)

9/13/2005 12:33:00 PM  
Blogger hollymer said...

I am not Jewish but I am sick of people like c4 implying that the Jews are at fault for the Palistinian mess. Here is a little reminder of what the Jews have contributed to the world and what the muslim religion has contributed....

Contribution of the Muslim People
19.6% of World's Population
1.2 BILLION Muslims
Nobel Prize Winners
Literature
1957 Albert Camus
1988 Najib Mahfooz
1988 World Peace
1978 Mohamed Anwar El-Sadat
1994 Yaser Arafat
Chemistry
1990 Elias James Corey *
1999 Ahmed Zewail
Medicine
1960 Peter Brian Medawar *
1998 Ferid Mourad *
* Nobel Prize winners but are Arab-Christians, not Muslims.

Jewish People
0.2% Of World's Population
14.1 MILLION Jews

Nobel Prize Winners
Literature 1910 - Paul Heyse 1927 - Henri Bergson 1958 - Boris Pasternak 1966 - Shmuel Yosef Agnon 1966 - Nelly Sachs 1976 - Saul Bellow 1978 - Isaac Bashevis Singer 1981 - Elias Canetti 1987 - Joseph Brodsky 1991 - Nadine Gordimer 2002 - Imre Kertesz World Peace1911 - Alfred Fried 1911 - Tobias Michael Carel Asser 1968 - Rene Cassin 1973 - Henry Kissinger 1978 - Menachem Begin 1986 - Elie Wiesel 1994 - Shimon Peres 1994 - Yitzhak Rabin 1995 - Joseph Rotblat Chemistry1905 - Adolph Von Baeyer 1906 - Henri Moissan 1910 - Otto Wallach 1915 - Richard Willstaetter 1918 - Fritz Haber 1943 - George Charles de Hevesy 1961 - Melvin Calvin 1962 - Max Ferdinand Perutz 1972 - William Howard Stein 1977 - Ilya Prigogine 1979 - Herbert Charles Brown 1980 - Paul Berg 1980 - Walter Gilbert 1975 - Benjamin Mottleson 1976 - Burton Richter 1978 - Arno Allan Penzias 1978 - Peter L Kapitza 1979 - Stephen Weinberg 1979 - Sheldon Glashow 1988 - Leon Lederman 1988 - Melvin Schwartz 1988 - Jack Steinberger 1990 - Jerome Friedman 1995 - Martin Perl1995 - Frederick Reines1996 - David M. Lee1996 - Douglas D. Osheroff1997 - Claude Cohen-Tannoudji2000 - Zhores I. Alferov2003 - Vitaly Ginsburg2003 - Alexei Abrikosov Medicine / Biomedical Science1908 Ehrlich, Paul1908 Mechnikov, Elie1914 Barany, Robert1922 Meyerhof, Otto Fritz1930 Landsteiner, Karl1936 Loewi, Otto1944 Erlanger, Joseph1945 Chain, Ernst Boris1946 Muller, Hermann J.1947 Cori, Gerty Theresa, Radnitz1950 Reichstein, Tadeus1952 Waksman, Selman A.1953 Krebs, Hans Adolf1953 Lipmann, Fritz Albert1958 Lederberg, Joshua1959 Kornberg, Arthur1964 Bloch, Konrad1965 Jacob, Francois1965 Lwoff, Andre1968 Nirenberg, Marshall W.1969 Luria, Salvador E.1970 Axelrod, Julius1970 Katz, Bernard1972 Edelman, Gerald M.1975 Baltimore, David1975 Temin, Howard M.1976 Blumberg, Baruch S.1977 Schally, Andrew V.1977 Yalow, Rosalyn1978 Nathans, Daniel1980 Benacerraf, Baruj 1981 - Roald Hoffmann 1982 - Aaron Klug 1985 - Albert A. Hauptman 1985 - Jerome Karle 1986 - Dudley R. Herschbach 1988 - Robert Huber 1989 - Sidney Altman 1992 - Rudolph Marcus 2000 - Alan J. Heeger 2004 - Irwin Rose2004 - Avram Hershko2004 - Aaron Ciechanover Economics 1970 - Paul Anthony Samuelson 1971 - Simon Kuznets 1972 - Kenneth Joseph Arrow 1975 - Leonid Kantorovich 1976 - Milton Friedman 1978 - Herbert A. Simon 1980 - Lawrence Robert Klein 1985 - Franco Modigliani 1987 - Robert M. Solow 1990 - Harry Markowitz 1990 - Merton Miller 1992 - Gary Becker 1993 - Rober Fogel 2002 - Daniel KahnemanPhysics 1907 - Albert Abraham Michelson 1908 - Gabriel Lippmann 1921 - Albert Einstein 1922 - Niels Bohr 1925 - James Franck 1925 - Gustav Hertz 1943 - Gustav Stern 1944 - Isidor Issac Rabi 1952 - Felix Bloch 1954 - Max Born 1958 - Igor Tamm 1959 - Emilio Segre 1960 - Donald A. Glaser 1961 - Robert Hofstadter 1962 - Lev Davidovich Landau 1965 - Richard Phillips Feynman 1965 - Julian Schwinger 1969 - Murray Gell-Mann 1971 - Dennis Gabor 1973 - Brian David Josephson 1984 Milstein, Cesar1985 Brown, Michael S.1985 Goldstein, Joseph L.1986 Cohen, Stanley1986 Levi-Montalcini, Rita1988 Elion, Gertrude B.1989 Varmus, Harold E.1994 Gilman, Alfred G.1994 Rodbell, Martin1997 Prusiner, Stanley B.1998 Furchgott, Robert F.2000 Greengard, Paul2000 Kandel, Eric R.2002 Brenner, Sydney2002 Horvitz, H. Robert2004 Axel, Richard

Stopped Counting

We can live without the muslims but our world is vastly diminished without the Jews....

9/13/2005 12:40:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Just heard a black lady in Dallas who is sure GWB does not care about blacks.
Many of her complaints are no different than a lot of them here posted by us, me included.
At the time, the US Govt looked pretty shabby to me.

Then we find out the truth about the Red Cross and Salvation Army being turned away BY THE STATE OF LOUISIANA, and other aid refused by the (black) Mayor of NO.
On and on.

Many of us here have learned that, some, perhaps spending time keeping up with Iraq, have not.
NONE of the general populace is being made aware of the facts by the MSM, frequently enough to counteract their Weeklong Propaganda attack against Potus.

Shameful.

9/13/2005 12:40:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Hollymer,
.1994 Yaser Arafat,
That pretty much cancels out any contributions made by your list of Jews imo.
...oh no, that's C4's opinion,
sorry.
Although it did cancel out a lot of Jews.

9/13/2005 12:45:00 PM  
Blogger Hanba'al said...

C4,


The more accurate comparison might be the fate of the Shinto Temples and shrines the Japanese military or Jap colonists built in Korea, China, SE Asia, the Philippines. Under a brutal military occupation meant to secure resources and lebensraum to the Yamoto Race.

If I'm not mistaken, every one of those Shinto constructions or other manifestations of Jap rule were torn down...

But they left the synogogues standing knowing the Pals would do to them what the Chinese, Indonesians, Filipinos, Koreans, etc. did to the abandoned Shinto shrines...


Then later in another post

The Japanese had Shinto shrines at their Naval and Army bases in Indochina. Every base had a Shinto shrine.
None were left standing by 1946.


What the hell the Jap military build a Shinto Shrine in every camp for? They are not gay are they, so they need religious ceremony to marry one to each other, or they have so much time on their hand after fighting battle to get together cooking and drinking and pay tributes to their ancestors?

I am pretty sure that the tradition usage of Shinto Shrines and Buddhist temples are for the PUBLIC and it is also a practice through out SE Asia in many subtle different forms .ie. a Buddist tradition. I don't think it's a practice of any SE country which mostly Buddhism or variations of Buddhismto build temple/shrines in a military base.

My points here are

1) You are pretty lose using myths or "inventive facts" to support your cause, which also reveals how honest you are in a debate. If you try to win an neutral party that way, you can only win idiots but I think there are only a few here, taken all the lurkers in account.

2) You do not have to use "inventive facts" to support the conclusion of why the Palestinians burned down the synagouges. I will grant you that. But that's not the point W making. He makes 2 points

a) The Palestinians are people lacking rational and reasonal falculty with no responsibility for their own action.

b) Human in a large quantity are lazy and not very much analytical oriented hence is easy to fall prey to propaganda or being brainwashed either by the MSM, your own government or yourself. With the advent of internet, the excuse of lacking information is taken away. The only "good" excuse left is victimization but then some day someone will ask a hard question: How long have you been a child?

9/13/2005 01:26:00 PM  
Blogger Sophia Phoster said...

Hollymer

Thanks for that list.

The Israelis make the desert bloom with cantalope as big as basketballs. The Palestinians only cash crop is their children.

9/13/2005 02:04:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Japanese uses of Shinto Shrines on Military Bases,
by Lan Nguyen.
---
Thanks, Lan, always nice to have a good chuckle now and then.

9/13/2005 02:12:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

also for the on point question concerning perpetual childhood.

9/13/2005 02:14:00 PM  
Blogger Rick Ballard said...

pork,

You should switch your nic to Indefatigable. I really admire the persistence with which you expose the lies posted here by c4. I like the hose down that you do every time he pumps his septic tank into the comments section here.

Lan - he earned his Phd in Taqiya at the David Duke Institute for Jew and Race Baiting. He was there on a joint Henry Ford/Pat Buchanan fellowship.

9/13/2005 02:28:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

My 2:31 PM post on the previous thread is a short description of Tony Blakeley's position as stated in his new book,
"The West's Last Chance"
Sounds like a winner.

9/13/2005 02:34:00 PM  
Blogger erp said...

Hollymer, what may not be generally known is that a lot of those Jewish Nobel prize winners are graduates of the City College system in New York City which has more Nobel winners among its graduates than any other institution in the world.

9/13/2005 03:42:00 PM  
Blogger hollymer said...

erp...did not know that but this confirms my view that NYC is the center of the universe, as we know it...

9/13/2005 04:13:00 PM  
Blogger erp said...

Hollymer, I don't know if you're being sarcastic, but no sarcasm is necessary because I'm mentioning this not to polish the Big Apple which needs no polishing from me, but to point out that, while New York City may or may not be the center of the earth, it was the center of a lot of European immigration including the vast majority of Jews.

Admission to the City College system was strictly on merit as were the excellent special high schools like Bronx School of Science which also admitted students strictly on merit, so a great many brilliant students many of whom were Jewish, received a first rate education at absolutely no cost and quite a few of them went on to become Nobel Prize Laureates.

9/13/2005 05:00:00 PM  
Blogger hollymer said...

erp...not being sarcastic...I live in California but went to grad school at Columbia...loved every minute in the city and love going back.

9/13/2005 05:05:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

There are words and there are photos, here is the man with more intelligence and knowledge than the entire Reuters Organisation, as shown by this august, professional organization:
Reuter's Picture of Reality .
HT Limbaugh

9/13/2005 05:07:00 PM  
Blogger shataqat said...

If I were a forensic linguist, I'd say C4 sounds uncannily like a certain Ranbuttan, known and baned some years ago on lgf. Never knew what happened to that particular anti Jewish buchananite...

hello all! I'm a long time lurker and now a poster.

9/13/2005 05:08:00 PM  
Blogger gumshoe1 said...

"To believe in progress, one must believe in *better*."
-Aristedes

wow.
there's a moral-relativist dilemma.

9/13/2005 05:16:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Not that bad, really, gumshoe:
Better is no more real than "progress" as defined by a bunch of racist, homophobic, imperialistic, exploitative, warmongering, jew loving, selfish monsters.

9/13/2005 05:21:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Hate for anyone to miss this from previous thread:
Scroll to bottom to see symbolism and etc.
D-Day Memorial Design Chosen to Honor WWII Veterans

9/13/2005 05:43:00 PM  
Blogger ledger said...

I am somewhat dense. But militarily speaking, exactly how does giving the PA/Hamas a port to unload and stock pile weapons help make Israelis' defense system more secure? What will happen when the PA/Hamas controls the airspace in the evacuated Gaza strip and other disputed territories? I would guess there would be some very negative consequences associated with that.

To the untrained eye, the withdraw is a military blunder (particularly after seeing obscene rioting and looting of the by the so call 'Religion Of Peace' and sensing that the ROP could care less what the west thinks about their actions). I understood it there was in-depth planning via Israel, Egypt and the US for a peaceful hand over. Yet, I did not see the peaceful aspect of it.

Is there some natural barrier - or even man made barrier that would better serve as protection to the Israelis now they have withdrawn? I don't see it. Is there some grand agreement of security to Israel that I am missing? There very well might be but, I don't see it.

For perspective, would the USA give back Texas and California to Mexico to pacify the Mexican Coyotes who traffic in humans and drugs at the boarder? I think not.

9/13/2005 05:47:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

Gazan Palestinians ravaged their own fledgling economic infrastructure. Looters made off with the greenhouses, supposed to have given 14,000 Palestinians a living

September 14, 2005, 12:57 AM (GMT+02:00)

Vandals dismantled the Erez industrial and workshop center, which had jobs for another 12,000. The Peres Peace Center and international coordinator James Wolfensohn raised $14m to buy the greenhouses from the Israeli farmers and so keep the Palestinian workers in their former jobs after their Israeli employers left.
In Erez, the former joint Israeli-Palestinian ventures were ransacked and torn down or vandalized, power centers were smashed and electric wiring pulled out of walls and stolen.

9/13/2005 05:56:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

ha ha ha ah aha ha hah a ha ha ha ha hah a ha ha ha

9/13/2005 05:58:00 PM  
Blogger leaddog2 said...

ledger,

To answer your question, Gaza is NOW a "free-fire" zone. Count on it that if Hamas and Islamic Jihad and the al Asqa Brigades are not disarmed, then they will be killed!

Scotching snakes, you know!

9/13/2005 06:00:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

c4: If Israel gets to it's final borders, pays for land and property it stole, and foreswears Zionist expansion and colonialism in return for Arab state recognition and an end to them supporting extremists, perhaps in a few decades Jews might be welcome again elsewhere.

So if in 1948 the Arabs simply had accepted the 2 state solution we could have avoided 50 years of war?

As for land and property claims, excellent idea C4!

600,000 Jews (from the arab world) have have claims too!

As for expansion, Israel seeks a land mass the size of New Jersey, the Arab people seek a land the size of America. I wonder who is really the land grabbing colonial power? Let’s ask the Berbers, the Kurds, the Coptics for thier pov.

As for a few decades, no thank you, you can keep your arab world. I find peaceful arabs living side by side with Christians, Jews and yes Moslems in relative peace in Israel.

9/13/2005 06:25:00 PM  
Blogger Heraclitus said...

I've been spending some time of late at http://www.haaretz.com/.

Not sure how balanced it is, but it's interesting to see things from the perspective of Israelis whatever their particular political persuasion.

9/13/2005 06:42:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

here is more on the days before the 1967 war were C4 says, israel fired the 1st shot:

The case against Egypt is based, first, on the casus belli created by Nasser when he closed the straights of Tiran to Israeli shipping on May 22, 1967. This is confirmed by Nasser’s speech:

May 23 1967, Egypt announced that the Straits of Tiran had been closed & warned Israeli shipping that it would be fired upon if it attempted to break the blockade.

May 24th Egypt announced that the Straits had been mined. Text of speech by President Nasser of Egypt:

Yesterday the armed forces occupied Sharin ash-Shaykh. What does this mean? It is an affirmation of our rights, of our sovereignty over the Gulf of Aqaba, which constitutes Egyptian territorial waters. Under no circumstances can we permit the Israeli flag to pass through the Gulf of Aqaba.

On May 23, the closure of the straits of Tiran was condemned by President Johnson in these words:

The United States considers the gulf to be an international waterway and feels that a blockade of Israeli shipping is illegal and potentially disastrous to the cause of peace. The right of free and innocent passage of the international waterway is a vital interest of the entire international community.

Even had the closing of the Straits of Tiran been the only cause of Israel’s war on Egypt, it would have been enough to justify the war as one of self-defense. In fact, this closure was accompanied by a long series of other belligerent steps. On May 17, 1967, Nasser ordered the withdrawal of the UN buffer presence (UNEF, or United Nations Emergency Force) which was placed in the Sinai after the 1956 War. This was preceded by deploying Egyptian troops in the Sinai starting May 13, 1967, and by threats of annihilation against Israel. For Israel, the military pact among Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq, with the explicit objective of annihilating Israel, amounted to a noose, especially when the pact members started moving troops towards Israel's borders. Finally, Nasser resumed the murderous infiltration of the terrorist Fidayin, an act that was among the prime causes of the 1956 War. During the week of April 24, 1967, for example, Egyptian-controlled terrorists sabotaged a main road leading to Beersheba.

The following chronology is culled from Gilbert, Ch 21-22, and demonstrates the foregoing narrative.

May 13, 1967 - Nasser moves large numbers of troops into the Sinai.
May 16, 1967 - Nasser demands the withdrawal of UNEF; UN’s Secretary General, U Thant agrees immediately. Withdrawal completed by May 19, 1967.
May 22, 1967 - Nasser closes the Straits of Tiran, generating an unambiguous casus belli. (On March 1, 1957, Israel announced that closing the straits would be considered casus belli.)
May 25, 1967 - Egyptian armoured units moved to Sinai.
May 26, 1967 - Nasser declares, “our basic objective will be to destroy Israel”.
May 30, 1967 - During his visit to Cairo, King Hussein joins the Syrian-Egyption pact against Israel. Israel was now surrounded on three sides.
May 31, 1967 - Iraqi troops move to Egypt to support a possible war. (On June 4, Iraq joined the pact of Egypt/Syria/Jordan.)

Israel’s case against Syria is based on Syria serving as a launching pad for Palestinian-Arab terrorists and on Syria’s continual harassment of Israeli settlements in the valley below the Golan Heights. So intense did the shelling become, that the civilian population had to pass many a night in underground shelters. A favourite tactic of the Syrian-controlled terrorists was mining roads, as in the incident on May 8, when an Israeli car hit a mine on the road to Tiberias. Gilbert, Ch 21, describes the situation as follows:

The first three months of 1967 were marked by repeated Syrian artillery bombardments and cross-border raids on the Israeli settlements in the north. Israeli air raids against Syrian positions on the Golan Heights would result in a few weeks' quiet, but then the attacks would begin again. On 7 April 1967 Syrian mortars on the Golan Heights began a barrage of fire on kibbutz Gadot... More than 200 shells were fired before Israeli tanks moved into positions from which they could reach the Syrian mortars.

As the Israeli tanks opened fire, the Syrian artillery did likewise. Firing quickly spread along the border to the north and south of Gadot. Then Israeli warplanes - Mirage fighter-bombers purchased from France - flew over the Syrian border and over the Golan Heights, strafing several Syrian strongholds and artillery batteries. Fifteen minutes later Syrian warplanes - Soviet MiG-21s - took on the Israeli planes in aerial combat. Within a few minutes, six MiGs had been shot down and the rest chased eastwards to Damascus... One Israeli plane was shot down.

Following the Gadot clash, Fatah renewed its campaign inside Israel, using the Syrian border as a conduit. On April 29 a water pipeline was blown up, and a few days later mines were laid on the main road leading north from Tiberias, damaging an Israeli army truck.

Israeli control of Judea, Samaria and Gaza are a direct consequence of the defensive war that Israel was forced into in 1967. In the course of a meeting in Rabat, 28 October, 1974, the Arab Summit adopts a resolution recognizing the PLO as the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people. This in fact meant that the former occupiers of Judea/Samaria and Gaza (Jordan and Egypt, respectively) officially renounced their claims over these territories. When Germany lost WW I to the Allies, she lost Alsace-Lorraine to France. When Germany lost WW II, she lost East Prussia. There is a price to pay for aggression and for being defeated in a war in which the opponent is exercising self-defence. The Arabs, and especially the Palestinian Arabs, should not be exempt from the realities of life.

http://israpundit.blogspot.com/2002/09/why-one-should-oppose-second.html

9/13/2005 06:59:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

A little go-round that ended in a tirade;

I said, condemning unilateral pacifism : If the Russians had met the Nazis with bouquets of flowers, German would have been the language from Scotland to the Urals.

Pragmatist, who thinks high flames can substitute for low IQ, sez:

Like the vast majority
of the crap you have
written this is factually
incorrect. The Russians did exactly
that. They hated their
communist leaders.That you didn't realize this fact is not surprising. You have swallowed the
left wing propaganda lies completely. Are you congentally
stupid? Are your parents are closely related? Brother and Sister?Or are you simply a lying
sack of manure? Check out a reputable history of WWII since you
won't believe me.


Ummmmm, which led me to reiterate that, yes, indeed, the Soviets did resist the Nazi advance..Something about 23 million deaths, that sort of thing...

Pragmatist, in the grip of some loss of lucidity claims:

He ignores - or is too
stupid to understand what
others have posted - that
numerous "Russian Peoples"
DID greet the Nazi's with
flowers. I realize it is pointless
to try to reason with folks
such as him. He has been
brainwashed into accepting
a dogma that has no basis
in reality. For him to
acknowledge that fact would
be to admit that his whole
intellectual framework is
a lie. He is too cowardly to do so.


I think you are having a little potty-mouthed debate with yourself, and yourself alone, mired in a sidetrack of history.

The Soviet Union did resist the Nazis, resist with heroism and sacrifice almost beyond ken. Pointing out certain groups welcomed the Nazis when I spoke in generalities is like your sadly flawed logic being employed when someone says "The Brits fought bravely against the Nazis" responding with a moronic comeback "Liar! Liar! What about Owsley and the blackshirts?? They were Brits!!"

Again, only a dolt gets so mired down in the specifics they can't grasp the truth of a central point, and only someone utterly clueless goes ad hominem and attempts to rebut a point obvious to all with garbage like "well, there were exceptions".

9/13/2005 07:01:00 PM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

I am REALLY looking forward to watching the Palestinians starve to death.

All of them.

Slowly.

9/13/2005 07:01:00 PM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

ledger - to control air space, don't you need something that will fly other than balloons? Do we anticipate someone is going to give the brave Palestinian animals airplanes? Do we anticipate that the brave Palestinian throwbacks will be able to learn how to fly them? Surely you don't think the Palestinians are going to be able to create or buy unmanned droids any time in the next century.

Just because a few Saudi's learned how to fly an airplane from trusting Americans (but not to land it) doesn't mean that Palestinians will have the same wit. Or wealth.

9/13/2005 07:08:00 PM  
Blogger Wild Bill said...

The Pals are just another group of people that are the type to go outside and shit on the porch, then throw it back in the house.. The same type that were on display in Nawlins week before last.. So what if they tear it up, the U.S. will send another $200M for them to fix it up again, so they can tear it up again.. It may just be me, but I really dont think we got our money's worth out of that last $200M .. Its really gonna give me a BAD case of the cula if we send them any more money.. Nawlins and the New Gaza are two of the same.. The uselessness of the PA in Gaza has shown that they have NO control and the varmints will be full-throttle now.. Whatever their little hearts desire will open to them.. There is no doubt in my mind what they desire !! Question is, is how long till they tire of burning the mosques in Gaza and DESIRE to burn those in Israel ??

9/13/2005 07:17:00 PM  
Blogger ledger said...

leaddog2 explains: "...Gaza is NOW a "free-fire" zone..."

Is that a true statement?

Again, out of military interest how does the withdraw from Gaza and other disputed areas make Israel more safe? I have already alluded to the port issue and the airspace issue.

I could imagine Hamas getting their hands on a drone plane and firing weapons from it (or just converting it into a flying bomb). We know that al-Qaeda had a drone and used it to spy on Pakistani troops. What not Hamas having one also?


[AFP]:

...Pakistani forces recovered an unmanned drone aircraft and seized 21 militants in a raid on suspected Al-Qaeda hideouts in the tribal areas near Afghanistan, a top commander said. Militants used the Chinese-made vehicle to spy on security forces in the rugged area, where Pakistani soldiers have battled Islamic militants for more than a year, Lieutenant General Safdar Hussain told reporters.

"...terrorists used the RPV (remotely-piloted vehicle) to check the position of security forces and attack them," ...the general said, adding that the drone was capable of carrying weapons... A military officer from the army's Signal Corps said the vehicle had a sophisticated, wide-angle camera to take pictures of targets on the ground, while Hussain said they had seized a CD which pinpointed Pakistani troops
.

Pakistan forces find spy drone

9/13/2005 07:20:00 PM  
Blogger quark2 said...

Speaking of what was left behind, the many greenhouses left behind were worth several million dollars. Looks like the palestinians have got themselves some real expensive junk now.
Sharon did indeed buy them lots of brandnew rope. They're good at using it.
Talk about shooting oneself in the foot!

9/13/2005 07:26:00 PM  
Blogger Karensky said...

W interesting post re the Palis astonishing ability to find the dark side of the sun while planning a sun walk. Perhaps the other Arab nations are on to something when they do not allow Palis to become citizens, it seems that the Israelis have also come to this conclusion. In essence, what is good enough for Alla is good enough for Yahweh. To say that the Palis are savages is to insult the savage. When I look at the future of Lebanon I see a definite Pali hurdle in the name of Hamas. This tribe, the Palistinians just seems to not have the genetic fortitude for self respecting behavior. Given countless chances they have gotten it wrong every stinking time. It is difficult for me to condemn an entire culture be that as it may, but these clods are historicly fools of a magnificent order.
C4 you have been drinking the kool aid way to much and it has made your collicky self past respectable. If you knew even a smattering of Russian history you would know that large parts of Russia are German. German is the second most spoken language in the Russian sphere, yes I know Ukrainian is really the second language but it is almost the same as Russian. C-fee give up the ghoast, your anti-american/israel rant is best obfuscated in the EU (eeuwe)land from where this line of silliness is most virulent. Good luck with the seeds you and yourn have sown.

9/13/2005 07:35:00 PM  
Blogger Karensky said...

Looking at the Pali destruction of the greenhouses, it appears that the various militias have determined that no economic success will be tolerated in the New Gaza. Don't cha think that the Jihadis want all able bodied Palis to be inducted into the grand Jihad? Having those disturbing money makers still on the ground might just maybe get reasonable Palis to instruct their children in something positive and beneficial to society. Can't have that while we have a global jihad to fight. Keeping the Pali's eye on the ball sort of.

9/13/2005 07:42:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

Ngyen - Ever hear of State Shinto? The Army was supported by state shrines. Never heard of it in Vietnam? Well, given generations passed - why would you know anything about Japanese garrison buildings in WWII??

Fabio - Cedarford - and many like him - seems to think that Israel has to bear a special original sin: having displaced a certain number of people who were living on the same stretches of land. But this original sin is far from unique; it would be closer to reality to say that any nation carries an original sin of birth.

One of the cardinal principles the UN took was managing war, particular wars on conquest and colonization. The 4th Geneva Protocol barring it added to the UN Charter. In 60 years, only Israel and China have gotten away with pushing their Settlers onto another people's land. China was somewhat excused on hypocrisy grounds - when it started on Tibet in the 50s - as half the world back then felt sorry for "THe Greatest Victims" and had sort of given Zionism a pass. The Marxists exploited the "what about Israel" question masterfully - so Tibet is being subjugated under Han Chinese tides.

Israel began losing its support outside what Zionist money buys in the US when it launched a 2nd wave of land grabbing after 1967 and relied on lawyers word-parsing to say Security Council Res 242 said "withdrawal from territories" - not "the territories".

With more lawyers per capita than any other country, so many they export lawyers...Israel counted on that "oh-so-clever we are approach", similar to Pork for Yahweh saying the Nobel Prize disparity justifies ripping the "inferior culture" off.

What the Mongols did, or the USA did, or Sweden did before 1949 is irrelevant. We crafted laws to avoid another WWII and made compliance with them a price to enter the UN. Israel has flipped the bird to the chem, bio, nuke NPTs, their agreements on 1948 refugees as their admission to the UN covenent, and violated the 1949 Geneva Accords with 30 years of planting more and more Settler colonies in Occupied Lands.

Other nations peeled off backing Israel in disgust over their perfidy. Only the US remains, and less than 30% of the public are now backers of Zionism. (55% of Americans think both sides are equally at fault and 15% of Americans back the Palestinians)

The original sin started after 60 million deaths in WWII, 3 million in INdia's Partition -with the nations of the world signing agreements to block genocide, lebensraum wars. Agreements that only Israel and China have violated without receiving consequences like Indonesia got over East Timor and the bombs the Serbs received.

9/13/2005 08:03:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

Karensky - C4 you have been drinking the kool aid way to much and it has made your collicky self past respectable.

Back around 1999, "kool-aid drinker" was cool. Nowadays, it is confined to low-brows that heard Sean Hannity or some toad of the DU like Susan Estrich say it. Suffice it to say that if everyone that says "kool-aid drinkers" in 2005 - thinking it was beyond witty - was forced to drink the Jim Jones concoction, the country would be a better place.

If you knew even a smattering of Russian history you would know that large parts of Russia are German.

Flat-out ignorant assertion. What "large parts of Russia are German?" Excuse me for reconfirming in the CIA Factbook on Russia, the Ukraine...that you have your head stuck in a place that bears no passing resemblence to a library.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/

There are only around 900,000 ethnic Germans left in the former Soviet Union lands of 230 million people - mostly in small enclaves in Russia, Ukraine, Kazahkstan - or asimmilated.

Given I know a lot about the German emmigrants, from their initial invitation to settle by Catherine the Great to their liquidations by the Bolsheviks as part of the Kulak class, to the deportation and Gulag existence of Stalins era, to the mass immigration of over 2 million ethnic Germans to Germany since 1989.....

I know all about their history.

You don't.

9/13/2005 08:57:00 PM  
Blogger Hanba'al said...

c4,

Ngyen - Ever hear of State Shinto? The Army was supported by state shrines. Never heard of it in Vietnam? Well, given generations passed - why would you know anything about Japanese garrison buildings in WWII??

What makes you think you know more about Vietnam than I do? given all the soda straws you use as decorative mental eyewear, why would anyone believe what you said when you could not provide A SOURCE? Heh.

9/13/2005 08:58:00 PM  
Blogger madawaskan said...

Cedarford-

If it was such an obvious trap-who is responsible for Palestineans being lead into it?

Or is that the problem?

Lack of leadership, and if that is true then why is there a lack of leadership?

It's almost as if you believe Palestineans are incapable of it.

9/13/2005 09:10:00 PM  
Blogger madawaskan said...

Incapable of it-by that I mean it is almost as if you believe Palestineans are not able to self-govern.

9/13/2005 09:38:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

Madawaskan -

No trap. Just PR intended for the Jewish far right and the gullible Christian Zionists of the USA.

The rest of the world, given the hatred of Zionism is not surprised that the Palestinians are happily eradicating every trace of the occupier. Same stuff happened when the Nazis were expelled from E Europe, followed by the ethnic Germans. In many parts of Poland, Czechslovakia, Ukraine, every trace of them, even the tombstones, were methodically destroyed.

Speaking of that, Nygyen wanted a link about Japs always building Shinto shrines where there military unites were.

According to the Japanese Sokko Gaikki Youth Group, 300, possible 500 Shinto shrines were built in Japan by Imperial Japanese troops. All are destroyed now, and the Chinese are pressing the Japs to continue Shinto shrine eradication in the Home Islands. So I this matter, I do appear to know more about Japanese practices in China and SE Asia than you do, Nygyen.

Your begged for link:

http://sokagakkai.info/html3/viewpoint3/today3/sgyouth_china3.html

Care for more links on the Japanese version of chapels for their WWII troops?

9/13/2005 09:56:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

erratum - 300 to 500 Shinto shrines built in China by Japanese troops. All destroyed by the Chinese.

9/13/2005 09:59:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

c4:
With more lawyers per capita than any other country, so many they export lawyers...Israel counted on that "oh-so-clever we are approach", similar to Pork for Yahweh saying the Nobel Prize disparity justifies ripping the "inferior culture" off.


actually c4, not my post.... try again... I posted and corrected many things you have said... nobel prize winners are not my issue

9/13/2005 09:59:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

c4: One of the cardinal principles the UN took was managing war, particular wars on conquest and colonization. The 4th Geneva Protocol barring it added to the UN Charter. In 60 years, only Israel and China have gotten away with pushing their Settlers onto another people's land.

actually again, you misspeak...

you say "60 years" so 2005 -60=1945

the 4th geneva protocol was not written until 1949

Protocol Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts (Protocol

now, in 1948 the same UN offered a 2 state solution, the israels agreed with the UN, the Arab states refused and went to war against a duly set up government of the state of israel, then in 1967, again, the west bank and gaza were NOT palestinian, they were in fact Jordanian and EGYPTIAN.....

9/13/2005 10:08:00 PM  
Blogger madawaskan said...

cedarford-

How is Zionism-the wish for a Jewish state any different from the wish of Palestineans to have a state?

Except for perhaps the point on the timeline-and that one tribe was forcibly expelled and one tribe got out of the way...

9/13/2005 10:19:00 PM  
Blogger madawaskan said...

Cedarford-

Let's just invert the argument-Sharon had a difficult time pulling out the settlers who were forcibly removed by their own IDF troops. He had a hard time holding his own party together yet alone all the factions of the Knesset-(fifteen or more?)

Now imagine if Abbas had to remove Palestineans from an area-had all he could do to keep the various interests on board-Hamas, etc. and as a final blow he set fire to the mosques-sacrilege-right?

Abbas might have so inflamed public reaction that not only would he not have been able to accomplish the pullout-but he would be out on his ear with a reactionary crowd furthering or even escalating the violence.

I do not view Sharon's leaving the synagogues intact as a sinister act.

Symbolism is a powerful force-particularly in all religions in yours as well as others.

9/13/2005 11:20:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

madawaskan - How is Zionism-the wish for a Jewish state any different from the wish of Palestineans to have a state?

Zionism's emphasis on racial purity, aggressive land grabbing (lebensraum), notion that whoever once occupied land always has claim over all subsequent owners, the superiority of the folk.

The Palestinians are Muslims and Catholics, even used to have a small smattering of Jews. They are not attempting to invade a distant continent, but are attempting to create a nation on land their people have lived on continuously for millennia.

If Palestinians had their own state and had conquered the Israelis - and Abbas was trying to get them to withdraw from the Colonies and brutal impression they imposed on the Jews, you might have a point. But the Palestinians would expel the Jews, if they ever conquered Israel, back to the lands they came from, so it's a moot point.

9/14/2005 12:01:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

c4: Zionism's emphasis on racial purity, aggressive land grabbing (lebensraum), notion that whoever once occupied land always has claim over all subsequent owners, the superiority of the folk.


Please let talk about aggressive land grabbing...

the arab lost wars they started, the loser of the these wars by clear UN laws deserve to loose lands, the lands you talk about are TINY

If Israel was aggressive land grabbing, why not grab some land with oil on it? If israel was landgrabbing, why not DRIVE OFF the arabs completely OUT OF ISRAEL??????

Cant answer that? If ISRAEL were so LAND GRABBING why is there ONE CHURCH in ISrael STANDING?

WHY DID ISRAEL NOT DESTROY THE DOME OF THE ROCK when they COULD HAVE?

what's your answer? huh?

Israel is not a racially pure country, the ARABs have a nazi purity thing, you flip reality wonderfully.

thanks for proving my point, look at the arab world, all the same...

look at israel, many colors and peoples and faiths..

as for the HISTORIC claim to the west bank?

It aint called the JUDAEN HILLS for nothing, as for the TINY population of arabs living there for 1000 yrs, yes, they are invaders, yes they should stay (and here is a secret c4 THERE ARE FREAKING ARABS IN ISRAEL YOU MORON) And there are MORE ARAB TOWNS in the WEST BANK TODAY than EVER BEFORE!!!

The total population of the so called palestinians are exploding (ha ha yes that way too) The have created NEW TOWNS and villages, they are GRABBING lands to develop!!!

c4: The Palestinians are Muslims and Catholics, even used to have a small smattering of Jews. They are not attempting to invade a distant continent, but are attempting to create a nation on land their people have lived on continuously for millennia.

nope, they had there chance to create a country, they keep refusing to.. and we in the west keep pushing it...

c4 your pals the pals are worthless, your arguements are lies and distortions, your concept of fair makes hitler laugh

9/14/2005 06:31:00 AM  
Blogger pragmatist said...

All will notice that C4 has refused
to answer my queries about either
the familial relationship between
his "parents" of the status of
his "lover".

Since silence is assent, I suggest
he must agree.

"Potty mouthed" ... ooohhhh that
one really hurts. I'll have to
see my psycho-analyst twice this
week to handle that one.

Seriously, C4 analysis is that it
is always the "Zionists" fault.

He has no coherent rejoinder to
the facts, for example, that
Israel had been attacked repeated
by the Egyptians before they responded in June 1967.

His "facts" are no more than the
myths "taught" by Israel haters
here in America and abroad.

The reason Americans don't buy
his crap is because, unlike
most of the rest of the world,
we are taught to think for ourselves.

Evidence for the above is that
while something more than 80% of
the faculty in higher education
are extreme left-wingers and
teach from that perspective,
only a mere handful of their
students, way less than 1%
actually go out and become
"professional leftists".

The students parrot back what
their instructors want to "earn"
their grades. And then laugh
out loud at how clueless they
their profs really are.

C4 obviously didn't get the joke.

He should sue whatever institution
brainwashed him for "educational
malpractice".

9/14/2005 08:17:00 AM  
Blogger erp said...

A lot of posters are a bit muddled on the history of the area in question. Read Dennis Miller on the Middle East so you can know what you're talking about.

9/14/2005 10:33:00 AM  
Blogger Scott1798 said...

In this world there are two, and only two, kinds of people. Those who do and those who bitch. Obviously, the Israelis are the ones doing something, like for example building a civilized country. And the Arabs are the ones bitching about it.

9/15/2005 12:37:00 AM  
Blogger Hanba'al said...

C4,

Yep, I learn a new thing today. I grant that you know more about Japanese practices in China and probably in Korea too, regarding the State Shinto. If Japan occupied Vietnam long enough, Vietnam probably would go the Chinese way too. I am not aware of State Shinto practice in Japan, an extreme form of Taoism while taking assumption that Japanese religion then was a variation of Buddhism.

But then your analogy of destruction Japan & Israelis "temples" is now completely off base because Israel built the synagogues for its people while Japan built the temples to force the locals to adhere to the Japanese's religion. If Japan built its temples for its people then later destroyed by the locals, you analogy is accurate to draw a parallel between the Palestines' action today and the Chinese's action previously.

However, the Chinese was forced to obey and followed Japan's state religion, hence granted Chinese their moral legitimacy to destroy anything reminding them of the Japanese's evil practice. The Palestinians does not have the same moral legitimacy as the Chinese had because Israel did not force Palestinians to follow Israel's religion. Your analogy is a proof that they don't have it. You just prove to W that he's right: Palestinians are not responsible and have not making any progress in this civil world the last 60 years.

9/15/2005 11:41:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

off topic, it's about cair doctoring a photo and getting caught... funny

worth a read!!

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/008110.php

9/15/2005 11:44:00 AM  

Post a Comment

Links to this post:

Create a Link

<< Home


Powered by Blogger