Thursday, May 03, 2007

There's Too Many of Them, Boss!

The Counterterrorism Blog shows why MI-5, so effective against the IRA, was hard pressed to stop the Islamic London Tube bombers. "This is a social network graph for 7/7 bombing leader Mohammed Siddique Khan - represented by the green node ... The graph is incomplete but it gives some sense of the role the U.K. has played as a theater of al-Qaeda's operations. ... No matter how ably MI-5 disrupts plots, political decisions that permitted radical Islamists networks to flourish in Britain guaranteed that they would be overwhelmed."

Here's what the social graph looked like:


When people argue that the War on Terror "cannot be won by military, only by political means" they often exclude from consideration any political decisions which would deprive threats of their force-generation mechanisms or their means of command and control. Jihadi cells were allowed to flourish; operatives allowed to come and go; recruitment was permitted, sometimes openly in mosques because political considerations required that these activities not be impeded. Operational necessity often creates contradictions with the most cherished political institutions of a democracy that are very hard to reconcile. But that does not mean the contradictions are not real.

The "political" challenges facing the West are not only about setting up "democratic institutions" in the Middle East, or forcing Israel to accomodate Palestine. They also have to do with finding ways to shut down enemy force generation mechanisms without instituting an authoritarianism or creating a domestic tyranny. But the problem won't be solved until it is squarely recognized as needing a solution.

One of the most worrisome effects of the political decisions that the Counterterrorism Blog regrets is that it may have allowed terror groups to obtain "authority supremacy" within the Muslim communities in Britain, which occurs when a group of citizens fears and respects a shadow government more than it does the legitimately constituted and elected authorities. This danger was glimpsed in the recent appeal by Peter Clarke, the head of the Metropolitan Police Counter-Terrorism Command, to the public.

"I firmly believe that there are other people who have knowledge of what lay behind the attacks in July 2005 - knowledge that they have not shared with us," he said.

"I don't only believe it, I know it for a fact.

"I also know that some of you have been actively dissuaded from speaking to us. Surely this must stop. The victims of the attacks, and those who will become victims of terrorism in the future, deserve your co-operation and support."

It has been said in Afghanistan that control over territory belongs not to the soldiers who patrol by day, but to the men who knock by night. The question for the population is always: who do you fear more? In Peter Clarke's case, he may already know the answer.


Blogger Deuce ☂ said...

"The "political" challenges facing the West are not only about setting up "democratic institutions" in the Middle East, or forcing Israel to accomodate Palestine. They also have to do with finding ways to shut down enemy force generation mechanisms without instituting an authoritarianism or creating a domestic tyranny. But the problem won't be solved until it is squarely recognized as needing a solution."

translation- "it's a bitch."

5/03/2007 07:10:00 PM  
Blogger allen said...

Talking about terrorists:

“Another Israeli Minister (Tzipi Livni) that can trace their political and genetic lineage to the Terror bombing of the King David Hotel…”

This statement was made on your blogsite. It has gone uncontested by any of your subsequent commentary. Does it represent your sentiments?

Who is Tzipi Livni?

5/03/2007 07:35:00 PM  
Blogger Ticker said...

The Internet is as vital to terrorism as the AK-47

This is the message of a report to be presented to the Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee. Terrorists have increased their use of the Internet to make their activities faster, cheaper and more secure. (AP)

Can we withdraw from the Internet too?

5/03/2007 07:51:00 PM  
Blogger Deuce ☂ said...

Allen, The purpose of my posts are to offer information that I believe is helpful and worthy of discussion. You know that. I do not feel that it is my job to respond to every comment. I do not endorse what others write by my choosing to comment or not.

The theme of the blog is conversational. It was named after a bar so that people could act as they would in such a place. As you well know, whit and I have requseted that comments be civil. Comments that you would not make to one's face would be considered out of bounds. I think that is fair.

You know by many posts and many comments what my sentiments are on the subjects that I choose. The article that you link on Tzipi Livni is positive, as is the graphic as are my comments.

In an accusatory tone you ask me if the comments by DR represents my sentiments? I did not contest them. There are many comments that I do not contest or endorse.

Here is what represents my sentiments:

"In every country where man is free to think and to speak, differences of opinion will arise from difference of perception, and the imperfection of reason; but these differences when permitted, as in this happy country, to purify themselves by free discussion, are but as passing clouds overspreading our land transiently and leaving our horizon more bright and serene." --Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin Waring, 1801.

i doubt your sentiments differ much from my own.

5/03/2007 10:03:00 PM  
Blogger Deuce ☂ said...

On the subject of who is a terrorist:

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter

by Patrick J. Buchanan

03/16/04: Between 1971 and 1973, he was commander of the Derry Brigade of the Provisional IRA, which fought gun battles with British soldiers in a war that would cost 320 lives.

Arrested in Donegal near a car loaded with 5,000 rounds of ammunition and 250 pounds of explosives, he was sentenced to six months by a court whose jurisdiction he denied, "I am a member of the Derry Brigade of the (IRA) and am very, very proud of it."

A Londonderry official called him "a cold-blooded ruthless terrorist (who) will weigh up the consequences of his actions only in terms of benefit to the IRA, regardless of the cost in human lives." Another said he was a "fanatic ... responsible for mass murder."

He himself has spoken of the "legal and moral right of the IRA to kill a British soldier at any time," and was once quoted: "Freedom can be gained only at the point of an IRA rifle, and I apologize to no one for saying that we support the freedom fighters of the IRA."

He is Martin McGuinness. And the same March 13 New York Times that carries the picture of millions of Spaniards protesting the murderous terror attack on the Madrid trains has a photo of McGuinness chatting amiably with John Kerry before McGuinness spoke at Harvard.

Is it then true that "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter"? After all, many Irish consider McGuinness and his Sinn Fein comrade Gerry Adams, whom Bill Clinton invited to the White House for St. Patrick's Day, as freedom fighters in the tradition of the "martyrs" of the "Easter Rising" of 1916, celebrated by the poet W. B. Yeats.

As the president swears eternal war on terrorism, it is time to ask: Who is a terrorist? Exactly what is terrorism? Have we not ourselves sometimes breached our commitment "never to negotiate with terrorists"? Have we Americans also engaged in terrorism?

Terrorism has been defined as the murder or massacre of innocent men, women and children for political ends. In that sense, 9-11 qualifies, as do the Hamas bombings of buses in Jerusalem.

But looking back over the 20th century, no fewer than three Israeli prime ministers have been accused of terrorism: Menachem Begin, whose Irgun blew up the King David Hotel and carried out the massacre of Palestinian villagers in Deir Yassin in April of 1948. Yitzhak Shamir, head of the Stern Gang that murdered Edward Lord Moyne in Cairo in 1944 – enraging Churchill, who gave Moyne's eulogy – and assassinated U.N. mediator Count Bernadotte in Jerusalem in 1948.

Ariel Sharon, as head of Force 101, is accused of massacring scores of Palestinian villagers at Qibya in 1953 in a reprisal raid for the murder of an Israel woman and her children.

Nobel Prize winner Yasser Arafat has been charged in the cold-blooded assassination of U.S. Ambassador Cleo Noel in the Sudan in 1973. His PLO is an umbrella group embracing organizations for whom the weapon of choice in the war against Israel is terror.

Nelson Mandela, another Nobel Peace Prize winner, did not get life imprisonment on Robben Island for sitting in at lunch counters, but if memory serves, for plotting terror to overthrow the regime.

Jomo Kenyatta, the "Grand Old Man" of Africa in the 1960s, was the leader of the Mau Mau in the 1950s. Ahmed Ben Bella led Algeria's war of independence, in which terror was the insurgents' weapon and torture the counter-weapon of the French.

During Tet in 1968, the Viet Cong went through the city of Hue with hit lists, executing 3,000 civilians. Within months, America was negotiating "peace with honor" with the V.C. US ties are now improving with Hanoi, where the body of Ho Chi Minh lies in state, as does that of Mao in Beijing and Lenin in Moscow. All three employed terror.

What is Nagasaki – the atomic bombing of a defenseless city of a defeated nation – other than an act of slaughter, killing 40,000 men, women and children in minutes to force Japan's warlords to submit to America's will?

But that was war, we say, and Japan was the aggressor. Does that also justify Dresden? Is air terror permissible in a just war if a nation can demonstrate it was the victim of aggression?

Saddam's Iraq did not threaten us, did not attack us, did not want war with us, did not have weapons of mass destruction. Yet, we attacked, invaded and occupied Iraq. And when Iraqis attack our troops, we call it terror and we call them terrorists.

Is terrorism, then, like beauty, in the eye of the beholder?

John Brown murdered men in Kansas in reprisal for the killing of Northerners and killed civilians in his raid on Harper's Ferry to ignite a slave revolt. Brown was hanged as a terrorist. Yet the 1920s epic poem on the Civil War written by Stephen Vincent Benet would be titled, "John Brown's Body." And the first lines of the fighting song of the Union army were: "John Brown's body lies a-mouldering in the grave, but his soul goes marching on. Glory, glory hallelujah."

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Or so it would seem.

5/03/2007 10:46:00 PM  
Blogger allen said...


The comment expressed by the wrtier is despicable Jew-baiting of a kind routinely used by him.

(1) It marks as terrorists that samll group of Israelis who destroyed the nerve center of the alliance of hostile Arab leaders and the Pro-Arab, colonial, anti-Jewish British Administration. This administration had gone out of its way to leave helpless Jewish neighborhoods while heavily arming maurading Arabs and simultaneously disarrming every possible Jew, with the clear intention of orchestrating from afar the destruction of the Jewish homeland at its birth. To the Jews who attacked it, the King David Hotel might as well have been the Reich's Bunker.

(2) The statement imputes the imputed sin of the father by blood to a daughter, born 42 years after the alleged terror event.

(3) By blood, the statement ties Ms. Livni's political philosophy to events having occured some 50 years before her nativity.The fact that Ms. Livni's career has been one of silly accomdation to Arabs did not matter. No, murdering Jews are murdering Jews.

2164th, My question did not even imply the moderation or removal of offensive language. As you well know, I have repeatedly opposed such censorship. It is my opinioin that germs are best killed by sunlight.

No, 2164th, my question went to you as a man: "Does it (the comment) represent your sentiments?" Let us say you had read this trash here, for example, would it meet your approval or would it meet with your rebuttal?

Sorry, but the man in question routinely writes 25-50% of the comments on your site, essentially making it his own. Others have testified that he has become the face of your once fine blog, and because of the dark nature of his comments they have abandoned you. In short, has the Elephant Bar become a place where anti-Semites can feel comfortable, unbeknownst to you?

5/03/2007 11:22:00 PM  
Blogger allen said...


Thanks for the clarification.

5/03/2007 11:39:00 PM  
Blogger Deuce ☂ said...

Two of the last six posts at the EB, by me, were positive stories about Israel. One was provided by Elijah. I cannot both maintain an open discussion and moderate and modulate the content on who does the posting.

The Elephant Bar was opended at the request and suggestion of Wretchard. It was done so when he closed down comments for several days last summer. You know that.

It was to serve the purpose of allowing for more frequent discussions. I cannot think of one one regular at the EB that would not be recognized here. There is one regular poster here that has very few posts thaqt do not criticize Israel and more pointedly Jews in general. I have engaged him here. He never posts at the EB. You have engaged the same man. Others ignore him. You do not and you do not always challenge him on his obvious dislike for Jews. Sorry Allen, but you are wrong to imply that the EB is an open house for anti-semites.

There are criticisms over Israeli policy. That is fair enough. Israel is a state. It is run by a government. Governments and states are fair game for criticism. Tens of thousands of Jews are in the streets protesting their government. Does that make them anti-semites? Do posters here at the BC who openly criticize Jews make Wretchard a sympathizer? If you have any more comments to me, please feel free to make them over at the EB.

5/04/2007 12:35:00 AM  
Blogger amr said...

In the past, peoples actions were judged against the norm and they we ostracized or shamed into conformity. That started to change in the mid 1960s. Of course that could work both ways so to speak; if the community’s values are bad, such as racism in the old south, people with a different and decent view point could be intimidated. But we have gone the other way and “outlawed” shame and the judging of people’s actions against what was previously the norm under the mantel of multiculturalism and diversity. So what was thought to be right is now not spoken too eagerly. Just look at the lack of free speech on college campuses when that speech counters anything that might slight the basis of multiculturalism and diversity. That idea has now permeated our public discourse. And look now where that has gotten us. By old definitions 5th columns abound in the western world and publicly we accept it. It is like a cancer untreated and it will consume us unless the general population says, enough! But too many are worried about keeping up with the Jones to want to challenge what could destroy the life style they are seeking. Some have compared our present western culture to the decline of Rome. I am leaning in that direction.

5/04/2007 02:42:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...


This comment appeared on your blog.

“Another Israeli Minister (Tzipi Livni) that can trace their political and genetic lineage to the Terror bombing of the King David Hotel…”

As one man to another, I asked,

“Does it represent your sentiments?”

It really was that simple.

You have taken the question to imply an attack on you, your blog, and freedom of speech. It was no such thing. I just wanted to learn what YOU thought. Now, I know.

Oh, and before I could feel comfortable continuing further discussion here or elsewhere, what is your political and genetic lineage.

5/04/2007 05:07:00 AM  
Blogger Deuce ☂ said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

5/04/2007 05:49:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...

m simon,

The Honor of the Marines is at Stake

Thank you for the opportunity to speak of Haditha.

It may prove true that Murtha, or Warner, or Hagel (or some number of cowards unnamed) generated enough pressure to cause the Commandant or the Theatre commander to bring or order charges brought.

It may prove true that the criminal investigation was botched or unprofessional. For instance, it is my understanding that no autopsies were performed.

Despite a potential host of complaints of greater or lesser merit, charges have been made and, barring pardon, the cases will proceed to Article 32 Investigations. In short, we are where we are.

A word on Article 32 Investigation, if I may. Contrary to what you may have heard or read, this sort of investigation or "hearing", if you please, is NOT like a grand jury.
Among other things, the accused is represented by counsel; the accused my exercise discovery; the accused may call and examine witnesses; and the hearing is public. In short, the Article 32 Investigation offers an accused member rights unheard of in the civilian justice system.

Many bloggers presuppose recommendations of Courts-Martial from the hearing officers overseeing the Article 32 Investigations. Such presumption is unwarranted in the face of history and may say more about the character of the critics than the military officers tasked with handling the matter. Hearing officers can and do routinely recommend the dismissal of charges. Thus, unless we accept the proposition that the hearing officers in this instance are hopelessly corrupt, the opportunity for recommended dismissal is a reality. Indeed, the attorneys representing Captain Stone reportedly believe that a recommendation for dismissal may be the outcome of his Article 32 Investigation.

Following the Article 32 Investigation, the hearing officer will provide to the originating command a meticulously detailed report. The hearing officer will conclude his work by making non-binding recommendations, running the gamut of systemic possibilities. With recommendation in hand, the originating command will make a decision as to what course of action it will be pursue, if any.

Keeping in mind that during the public Article 32 Investigation discovery will occur, all material evidence held by the government will become the matter of public record. Barring extraordinary circumstance, the government will be thereby circumscribed. It is at this point that INFORMED criticism and complaint can be registered. At the moment in the absence of that public record and the sworn testimony of witnesses, it is simply impossible to make reasonable judgments as to the quality of the government’s case.

There is no reason be believe the Haditha Marines will be “railroaded” to the gallows, unless you are one of those who believe the system so hopelessly corrupt that this is the predestined outcome. If such systemic corruption is the case, then, the United States is in far greater need of salvation than Iraq and our energies should be so directed.

5/04/2007 06:37:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...


My goodness, all that ink to avoid answering a simple question. But, then, I suppose in that blur of ink is the answer.

5/04/2007 06:39:00 AM  
Blogger Deuce ☂ said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

5/04/2007 06:43:00 AM  
Blogger Deuce ☂ said...

Allen the rarified air up there is doing to your mind what the sun is doing to the wax holding your feathers.

5/04/2007 07:30:00 AM  
Blogger David M said...

Trackbacked by The Thunder Run - Web Reconnaissance for 05/04/2007
A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention.

5/04/2007 07:46:00 AM  
Blogger Brian said...

2164th, I'm surprised that you posted that nonsense from Pat Buchanan with apparent approval. A terrorist is someone who deliberately targets civilians. to the extent that the IRA bombed civilians (think Omagh) they were terrorists. One man's terrorist is not another's freedom fighter unless everything is relative to you.

5/04/2007 07:55:00 AM  
Blogger Ash said...

Cruiser said:

"A terrorist is someone who deliberately targets civilians."

Is that all there is to it? Menachem Begin is a terrorist in your view? How about the fire bombing or Dresden? Hiroshima? Shock and Awe? Civilians deliberately targeted thus terrorism in your view.

5/04/2007 08:15:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

To say in a continuing discussion about nepotism and elites, that Ms Tzipi Livni was the proogeny of a Irgun commander, was and is not jew baiting.

Any more than to note that Mr al-Sadr's father, one of the "spiritual" teachers of Mr Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah, current leader of Hezzbollah, is Mussulmen baiting.

The 9-11 attack on the Pentagon was not a terrorist attack, then, by today's definition?
It is and was a military target, without doubt.

5/04/2007 08:30:00 AM  
Blogger Brian said...

DR, the pentagon is military target attacked with a civilian jetliner full of passengers. Terrorism, plain and simple.

5/04/2007 08:44:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...

desert rat,

Your Livni comment speaks for itself. You should have stuck with nepotism; you were on solid ground there. But you couldn't resist that cheap dig, could you? And why not, who was to call you at the Lollipop Guild.

But as to your other pubished opinions concerning the Jews, how about providing some EVIDENCE of the Israeli clandestine sales of highly restricted military technology to the Chinese you have repeatedly claimed?

No conspiracy theorist websites, please!

5/04/2007 08:47:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Unfriendly Fire
How Israel Uses U.S. Weapons to Threaten Our Troops

by James Ridgeway
April 25 - May 1, 2001

Wherever they go to stamp out trouble, America's fighting men and women are placed in harm's way—not by our myriad enemies, but by our own energetic arms manufacturers and their compatriots in so-called allied nations, who help our foes arm themselves against us.
That lesson was underscored this month in the China spy plane incident. U.S. officials now say Chinese F-8 jets, like the one that collided with our lumbering EP-3E, are armed with an Israeli-made air-to-air missile. The Python-3 missile was produced by the Israeli Armaments Development Authority.

Jane's Defense Review reports that the Python-3 missile traces its origins back through several generations of weapons to the American Sidewinder, an air-to-air missile created in the late 1960s and purchased by Israel. The Israelis souped up the weapon and tested it in the Bekáa Valley of Lebanon during 1982, then sold it to China. "

Then, of course there is the ever infamous Chinese J19 aircraft.

Israel's role in China's new warplane
By David Isenberg

The recent unveiling (sort of) of China's first domestically designed (sort of) fighter jet was the culmination of a long saga of international military-hardware wheeling and dealing that has seen US-designed or -funded high-tech weaponry fall into the hands of potential military rivals.
The program began in the late 1980s and is thought to be based on an Israeli design. It contains Israeli and Russian avionics, and is powered by Russian engines.

Chinese engineers developed the J-10 from a single F-16 provided by Pakistan, and with assistance from Israeli engineers associated with Israel's US-financed Lavi fighter program, which was canceled in 1987, according to the Federation of American Scientists website. The Lavi was based on the US F-16 and built with US$1.3 billion in aid from Washington.
Only in early 1995 did the US government make public its concerns about Israel's Lavi-related technology re-exports to China. David Lari, director general of Israel's Ministry of Defense, acknowledged in an Associated Press interview that "some technology on aircraft" had been sold to China and that some Israeli companies may not have "clean hands".

All Israeli Defense Induxtries are government controlled, or so I've read. Israel is reported to be a pretty socialist economy at it's core.

Israeli socialists, sell to the high bidder.

5/04/2007 09:25:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

"Israel ranks second only to Russia as a weapons-system provider to China and as a conduit for sophisticated military technology, followed by France and Germany," stated a report this year by the US-China Security Review Commission, a panel established by Congress to examine security and economic relations between the two countries. "Recent upgrades in target acquisition and fire control, probably provided by Israeli weapons specialists, have enhanced the capabilities of the older guided missile destroyers and frigates" in the Chinese navy's inventory, it said.

The commission cited Israel as a supplier to Beijing of radar systems, optical and telecommunications equipment, drones and flight simulators.

Arms exports have not only played a crucial role in offsetting Israel's trade imbalance but have also performed a key role in furthering its diplomatic efforts. The sale of arms and technology has become one of the most effective techniques to furthering Israeli goals overseas. The quiet ties with China and India and the growing alliance with Turkey in the 1980s and the 1990s are good examples of strong links based on such cooperation.
as was widely publicized, Israel was set to sell China the Phalcon, an airborne early-warning radar system, until it was forced by the United States to cancel the deal. The US Central Intelligence Agency also believed Israel was marketing its STAR cruise missile in China. The STAR incorporates sensitive US technology.

And former US officials report that both Israel and the Dutch company Delft made unauthorized sales of US thermal-imaging tank sights to, among others, China. The sights were installed on China's 69 MOD-2 tanks, some of which were sold to Iraq. The United States acquired physical evidence of this transfer after these tanks were used against US marines in the 1991 Gulf War.

Even after the USS Liberty, Israeli helped to kill even more US servicemen, with their prolific arms sales to those that turn those weapons on US.

To China & Iraq and who knows where else, in the future?

5/04/2007 09:40:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...

desert rat,

re: Even after the USS Liberty, Israeli helped to kill even more US servicemen, with their prolific arms sales to those that turn those weapons on US.

Thanks for digging, Desert Rat. As I'm sure you KNOW, there is nothing we Jews like better than having others do our heavy lifting.

Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda

It is by such keen, factual, objective analyses that you have driven off many excellent commenters from a once excellent site. Thankfully, you do not spend much time here.

5/04/2007 10:35:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...


Anything you care to say to Desert Rat about that last bit of Jew-hating agitprop?

5/04/2007 10:41:00 AM  
Blogger Ash said...


I see you aren't denying the facts as presented in DR's citations. They are true then?

5/04/2007 12:03:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

Allen equates any criticism of Israel or Jewish individuals, groups - as anti-Semitic.

Some sort of immunity amulet claimed because "Jews suffered many decades ago" in a way that somehow did not confer a similar immunity amulet on other freely-criticized groups like Armenians, Ukranians, Lithuanians, Rwandans, Cambodians...

Oddly enough, the bellicose insistance that any criticism of any Jew or of Israel is out of bounds only serves to set them apart from the rest of humanity and redouble the criticism.
It also makes for interesting times when Jews who claim criticism is wrong because Jews or Israel is too good, too noble, too smart to ever engage in atrocities, treachery, or venal corruption get caught red-handed at it.

For Allen's info, Begin and Shamir admitted they were terrorists inspired by the Jewish Bolshevik's Red Terror campaign. That terror was necessary and was it's tactics were written about in bios of the men.

As for Israel's treachery, Desert Rat just documents the duplicity with China. Outside China and Russia, Israel is the most active spy network in the US - looking for military and industrial secrets not just for itself - but to sell to others.

Payback for Israel's untrustworthiness is now open and public. They were barred from work on the Joint Strike Fighter as a penalty for giving Patriot missile technology to China and for treachery regarding US-patented missile component sales to Russia and China, breaking export sales pacts.
They are also no longer getting technical spec packages accompanying their US-taxpayer provided defense materials after they used several packages in covert export deals.

Other nations have boycotted Israel from their high tech defense goods. Either from Arab pressure (Sweden, etc.) or treachery (Japan, UK)

Thems the facts, Allen. Sputter away about your "unjust persecution" and "people having the temerity to criticize us when any criticism is just bigotry" arguments..

5/04/2007 12:56:00 PM  
Blogger PeterBoston said...


You cannot hide in the dust created by the current interchange. You exhibit a disgusting pathology.

5/04/2007 01:24:00 PM  
Blogger Brian said...

Ash, the deliberate targeting of civilians (as opposed to incidental killing or injuring) is wrong.

As to your examples of "terrorism" I'll start with the easiest because, admittedly, it becomes very grey with some of the examples.

Shock and awe, which was neither shocking nor awe-inspiring, was not terrorism because it was the most precise military action ever undertaken against purely legal targets. That does not mean that civilians did not die - but they were not targeted. If our goal was to target civilians there would be no Iraqis left at this point.

As to Menachem Begin being a terrorist, I think there is a legitimate dispute as to the nature of the targets. Its iffy.

As to Dresden, it was bombed as part of an effort to shut down the movement of German reinforcements toward the advancing Russians and to destroy military production. While the bombings were perhaps overkill, you have to remember that without precision weapons it took a thousand bombers to do what a squadron can do now. Not terrorism then, but would be terrorism now (given our ability to precision target).

Hiroshima (and Nagasaki) did have some military infrastructure but the attack was clearly intended to produce a shock and terror designed to bring the war to a quick end, at the expense of a great deal of civilians. However, I have no doubt that the attack was intended to (and did in fact) avoid the much worse civilian casualties (not to mention casualties to our soldiers) that would have been inflicted upon the Japanese by our inevitable invasion of mainland Japan, our blockade and our continued need to bomb their military infrastructure. It succeeded – though it exacted a horrific civilian toll. There is no doubt that it was moral and proper for the United States to invade, conquer and subdue the Japanese mainland – regardless of the enormous numbers of incidental civilian deaths the would have occurred. So, I think the Hiroshima attack escapes being “terrorism”, despite the fact that civilian injury and death were the predominant effect, because it was calculated to and did result in fewer civilian casualties than would have lawfully and morally occurred without it. It is a awful paradox – an attack on civilians intended, in part, to reduce the numbers of civilians killed.

Contrast this with classic terrorism that seeks to maximize and delights in civilian deaths. If you can't see the difference, god help you.

As to all the digging at Israel by commenters in here today - Israel is a great democratic ally that would not hesitate to shed blood to come to our aide. Reading the posts by some commenters today, one would think that Israel was no better than Egypt. Give me a break.

BTW, I'm an Irish Catholic (since there seems to be an implication that only a Jew would unabashedly support Israel).

Now I’m tired and my head hurts.

5/04/2007 02:10:00 PM  
Blogger allen said...


There are some sick puppies in the world. They vote and serve on juries. Keep your nose clean!

Oddly enough, I think that observation fits snuggly into Wretchard's thread. There may never be enough manpower or computing power to keep up, no matter the will.

Oh, and obviously, with the expenditure of a few hundred bucks, they blog comment; and "can in sleep, in depths of night, shout all the things unsafe in light."

5/04/2007 02:16:00 PM  
Blogger allen said...


I'm a Jew and will happily talk to you anytime.

To be fair, some tender souls find me rude and sanctimonious; I prefer to think myself brutally frank, having zero tolerance in all too short life for fools, which obviously would not include you. Finally, I link a great deal. As I learned from J. Paul Getty decades ago: I don't have to know everything, I just have to know how to find the people who do.


See my comment to Peterboston, 2:16 PM.

5/04/2007 02:27:00 PM  
Blogger Utopia Parkway said...

Is the US the enemy of Israel because it sells weapons to Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan? No, it's just bidness. The Irony of Israel selling weapons to China who sells them to Iran shouldn be apparent.

The two articles cited upthread are mostly speculation. The F-16 was provided by Pakistan. Some Israeli companies MAY not have "clean hands."

From my reading of the Israeli press the Israelis would like to have good relations with China. China doesn't have the anti-semitic background and baggage found in Russia and Europe. The Chinese respect Israel for its (for want of a better word) pluckiness, and for the long history of the Jews, which in some ways is not unlike that of the Chinese. OTOH, the Chinese are always pragmatic and they know where their oil comes from. I don't think Israel has had any specific benefit in the international arena from its good relationship with China. Perhaps some things could have been worse if China didn't take an interest in Israel.

Buchanan's thesis that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter is vacuous. The King David Hotel was a military command post. The "terrorists" phoned up an hour before the bombing to notify the British that it was going to happen. We need more terrorists that phone ahead like that.

About Deir Yassin you can search the web for plenty of info. You'll find two basic stories, the Jewish one and the Arab one. That anyone on this blog would believe that Arab exaggeration and lies in an attempt to sway the media began in the summer of 2006 is hard to imagine.

I guess the Joos must have been the world's smartest terrorists because they didn't have to be terrorists for very long. They gained their state and were able to give it up.

Anyone that keeps bringing up the USS Liberty and claims that Israel is an enemy of the US and that Jews are terrorists simply has preconceived prejudices that won't be swayed by facts or honest discussion. Anyone that believes that Israel has the third largest spy network in the US, while presenting no evidence whatsoever, probably wears a tinfoil hat.

5/04/2007 02:53:00 PM  
Blogger Deuce ☂ said...

Wretchard hosts this blog. I host mine. We both need our heads examined for doing so, but neither of us need to have our hearts examined for what other commenters have to say.

5/04/2007 03:04:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

PeterBoston said...

You cannot hide in the dust created by the current interchange. You exhibit a disgusting pathology.

You exhibit a disgusting dual loyalty.
You all had a chance to disprove with Israel that nation after nation that welcomed you in only to kick you out eventually as bad - was wrong. Your 1st shot was Jewish Bolshevikism, which put Jews in the blame category for the murder or starvation of 10s of millions. After the rise of the Oligarchs, appreciation of Soviet Jewry continues to erode.

Your second shot was Israel, where Jews could show the world just how noble, honest, trustworthy, and valuable an ally a Jewish State could be. They started with 80% global approval. They are down to 2 of 191 nations, with their only ally thought to be a patsy intimidated by Jewish influence, subverted by Jewish bribes.

Utopia Parkway - Is the US the enemy of Israel because it sells weapons to Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan? No, it's just bidness.

Not true when top secret defense technology is transferred to the Chinese or Soviets in their day by Jews like Pollard and Israeli defense firms. That is not "bidness" that is simple deceit and treachery.

If there is a pathology, it is with the global population...

5/04/2007 05:56:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

C4, to excoriate only a segment of the Bolsheviks ("Jewish Bolsheviks"), is to go mighty easy on the non-Jewish Bolsheviks. Why not condemn Georgians? Stalin the Georgian was, after all, the main Bolshevik beast.

Also, a good America Firster will always suspect the integrity of the UN. So how come the UN's treatment of Israel (to which you refer obliquely in your 'global opinion' assertion) passes muster? Isn't this a double standard?

5/04/2007 07:37:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Besides, if you can't forgive 'em a few Bolsheviks, in return for Monotheism, a great deal of Science, Mathmatics, & Medicine, a powerful allied nation & army in North Africa & the Mideast, a few jillion practical patents, and Jackie Mason, then you are a hard-hearted person indeed.

5/04/2007 07:59:00 PM  
Blogger allen said...

buddy larsen,

Again I see your standard raised in the array of the Sons of Light. You are a good man, Sir.

You may find this Spengler review to your liking. Tolkien's Christianity and the pagan tragedy

PS: Was that standard manufactured in China?

5/05/2007 06:26:00 AM  
Blogger Jewish Odysseus said...

"You exhibit a disgusting dual loyalty.
You all had a chance to disprove with Israel that nation after nation that welcomed you in only to kick you out eventually as bad - was wrong. Your 1st shot was Jewish Bolshevikism, which put Jews in the blame category for the murder or starvation of 10s of millions. After the rise of the Oligarchs, appreciation of Soviet Jewry continues to erode.

Your second shot was Israel, where Jews could show the world just how noble, honest, trustworthy, and valuable an ally a Jewish State could be. They started with 80% global approval. They are down to 2 of 191 nations, with their only ally thought to be a patsy intimidated by Jewish influence, subverted by Jewish bribes. "

Is this a put-on?

Or did I just wander into Stormfront?

Lenin, Stalin, Bukharin, Blukher, Tukhachevsky...Jooooooos? And even for the Bolsheviks that we blame Christians for Nazism? Do we impute Castro to the Catholic Church? Huh?

And then we look to the UN for the seal of goodness? I guess Red China is superior to Taiwan, then...and Iran to Switzerland...

5/05/2007 09:08:00 AM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

great link, Allen--the Spengler review. What a world, CS Lewis & Tolkien hanging out at Oxford, doing lit'rary battle with the idols of fascism.

As far as blaming the Jews for Bolshevism, or indeed any race for the doings of selected individuals within it: this is "collective guilt", and it is fundamentally antithetical to the Western Ideal.

It's 'racism', which the collectivists, in their zeal to brand it onto the West, prove that it's in truth their own deep rot.

5/05/2007 10:18:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...

buddy larsen,

The Elephant Bar is no more. Damned shame!

Even as we speak, the Dark Lords are forging their weapons of despair and despond. Beware Belmont Club!

I'm off to a party, with current and washed up warriors. The Boss has ordered my sobriety. Man, all that BS and no single-malt - NO! Not a drop. I can smoke cigars; like that’s gonna help.

5/05/2007 01:21:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Well, that's a shame. Good work by 2164--outstanding, really--but for me personally the election in November had kinda put me out of the mood.

5/05/2007 06:37:00 PM  

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