Tuesday, May 01, 2007

"Kill All Americans"

"To the very last one". The Jerusalem Post reports that the acting Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council, gave a sermon at a Sudanese mosque calling for the annihilation of America and Israel asked Allah to kill Jews and Americans "to the very Last One". Captain Ed and Atlas Shrugged have commentary.

Ahmad Bahr began: "You will be victorious" on the face of this planet. You are the masters of the world on the face of this planet. Yes, [the Koran says that] "you will be victorious," but only "if you are believers." Allah willing, "you will be victorious," while America and Israel will be annihilated. I guarantee you that the power of belief and faith is greater than the power of America and Israel. They are cowards, who are eager for life, while we are eager for death for the sake of Allah. That is why America's nose was rubbed in the mud in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in Somalia, and everywhere.

Bahr continued and said that America will be annihilated, while Islam will remain. The Muslims "will be victorious, if you are believers." Oh Muslims, I guarantee you that the power of Allah is greater than America, by whom many are blinded today. Some people are blinded by the power of America. We say to them that with the might of Allah, with the might of His Messenger, and with the power of Allah, we are stronger than America and Israel.

The Hamas spokesperson concluded with a prayer, saying: "Oh Allah, vanquish the Jews and their supporters. Oh Allah, count their numbers, and kill them all, down to the very last one. Oh Allah, show them a day of darkness. Oh Allah, who sent down His Book, the mover of the clouds, who defeated the enemies of the Prophet defeat the Jews and the Americans, and bring us victory over them."

To the very last one? Does that include everyone? Boy, better tell Harry Reid. If this is the face of the enemy then it is not confined to Iraq. It is also elsewhere and we had better have a strategy for dealing with it after withdrawing from Iraq. This guy Ahmad Bahr is one our partners in the peace process in Palestine. And he's delivering this sermon in the Sudan. In a mosque yet. The Sudan, not Iraq -- you know the country in Africa with these problems in Darfur which the UN is going to fix?

Captain Ed notes:

This speech took place in April. Coincidentally, that was the same month that we sent $59 million in aid -- to the same Palestinian Authority in which this lunatic serves as Speaker. The US has provided the Palestinians with more than $1.6 billion in aid since Oslo. This is what our money buys.

But let's not object. Let's not fight Bahr. That only makes things worse. Rather, give him the signs he craves. The prodigies which will allow him to claim that Allah has driven the mightiest country in the world off the battlefield without a military defeat. Give him more than an victory, give him a miracle.


Blogger allen said...

Wretchard wrote, "To the very last one? Does that include everyone? Boy, better tell Harry Reid."

Senator Reid and his Senatorial cohort might be saved under provisions making exceptions for livestock and/or concubines.

As the matter of Arab honor, none of the killing will be done with those 3,000 M-16s and one million rounds of ammunition shipped on the order of State to Mr. Abbas' Fatah. To be perfectly clear, that would be the Fatah which launched a barrage of Kassams into Israel last week, in commemoration of the end of the "ceasefire".

5/01/2007 10:06:00 PM  
Blogger wretchardthecat said...

When this very reverend Ahmad Bahr reaches the climax of his peroration and the camera pans to the solemn visages of the assembled worshipers, when he wishes for death to every single American and Jew, what are his faithful listeners praying for?

And the question is how diplomacy, public diplomacy, foreign aid or any of the other tools available to states can alter what is said inside these mosques. Come to that, how will withdrawing from Iraq alter this message in any way? Would not a withdrawal provide confirmation of the justness of their cause? After all, the goal is not to effect the withdrawal of Americans or Jews. It is to ensure there demise "to the very last one".

I know that the counterargument is that "they don't really mean that"; that "it's just rhetoric". That if only certain concessions are met the way is open to peace and harmony. That's the counterargument. But what reason do we have to think that what people like this PA spokesman say is always untrue? Always hyperbole? If we cannot credit their threats how can we believe their assurances of peace? Do they simply lie when they threaten and speak the truth when they offer peace?

Each of us has some experience with life. Which of us would do business with a man like Ahmad Bahr? Oh wait, I forgot about the professional diplomats.

5/02/2007 12:18:00 AM  
Blogger Alexis said...

Perhaps we should thank Mr. Bahr for showing us where we should direct our wrath if by any chance the United States is attacked by al-Qaeda in the future. Democracy has its advantages, and since Hamas was elected by a solid majority of the Palestinian people, it can reasonably be assumed that Mr. Bahr’s statements accurately reflect the will of Palestine.

Apparently, Mr. Bahr is not aware that it is less than wise for a man in a glass house to throw stones or a man in a paper house to throw Molotov cocktails. A man named Aesop had a story about men like Mr. Bahr.

A TRUMPETER, bravely leading on the soldiers, was captured by the enemy. He cried out to his captors, "Pray spare me, and do not take my life without cause or without inquiry. I have not slain a single man of your troop. I have no arms, and carry nothing but this one brass trumpet." "That is the very reason for which you should be put to death," they said; "for, while you do not fight yourself, your trumpet stirs all the others to battle."

Those who incite terrorism ought to be considered more complicit than the terrorists themselves, much as the trumpeter who stirs others to battle.

5/02/2007 12:31:00 AM  
Blogger wretchardthecat said...

We are repeatedly told that fighting the enemy overseas is ruinously expensive. It is much cheaper, isn't it to use police methods? Well not by very much. The Daily Express does the accounting for the London fertilizer bombers:

The gang's most frightening plot was to buy a "dirty" nuclear bomb from the Russian Mafia and blow up a crowded city centre. Apart from the mass killing, the explosion would have left radioactive fall-out over a wide area. ...

The judge described ringleader Omar Khyam, 25, as "ruthless, devious and dangerous" and accused fellow plotter Anthony Garcia, 25, of harbouring a "murderous ambition on the UK".

The pair and three other "home-grown" terrorists, Waheed Mahmood, 35, Jawad Akbar, 23, and Salahuddin Amin, 32, were jailed for life for conspiracy to cause explosions after a record-breaking Old Bailey trial that lasted a year. The judge warned them they may never be released. The cost to the taxpayer of bringing the gang to justice was a staggering £50million.

The five extremists planned to massacre thousands of their fellow countrymen in up to 30 explosions across the country.

If wonder if the fifty million British pounds includes their food and lodging and health care over the term of their lives. Can't skimp on that. Might get a visit from the same guys who watch like hawks over Guantanamo. Might even get a court order from a European Court ordering their release for human rights violations.

Nothing comes for free. Defense is expensive, because you have to defend everywhere and yet never be sure that you hadn't left some place unguarded. Now if these British bombers had actually gotten their hooks or a dirty bomb ...

Now here's a thought experiment: suppose after the withdrawal from Iraq, Western intelligence receives information that somewhere in the Sunni triangle a dirty bomb is being prepared for use by al-Qaeda, who have established a Caliphate there. What do you do? Re-invade? Go back and find the survivors of your old network and ask them to do one last favor for old times? Drop a pre-emptive nuke and explain it was to forestall the use of WMDs? I don't think anyone can ever cry wolf again. Even if there's a wolf.

My conclusion is that if the thought-scenario ever came true the politicians would freeze like deer in headlights. They'd take the dirty bomb and then make a big show of healing afterwards.

5/02/2007 01:25:00 AM  
Blogger Deuce ☂ said...

"And the question is how diplomacy, public diplomacy, foreign aid or any of the other tools available to states can alter what is said inside these mosques. Come to that, how will withdrawing from Iraq alter this message in any way? Would not a withdrawal provide confirmation of the justness of their cause? After all, the goal is not to effect the withdrawal of Americans or Jews. It is to ensure there demise "to the very last one".

Any thoughts about what is going on in American mosques?

5/02/2007 02:21:00 AM  
Blogger wretchardthecat said...

"Any thoughts about what is going on in American mosques?"

The most important thing is that we not know. Officials will go to any length to avoid becoming cognizant of something because then they will be officially held to the consequences of that knowledge.

Is Iran launching terror attacks on the US? You will hear any number of vague and handwaving statements in this regard, but nothing remotely approaching an official recognition of belligerence. Because that will mean something has to be done.

The decision to take down Saddam Hussein was as close as the Republic can get to officially recognizing belligerence these days. Nothing about the findings were remarkable. The intelligence was believable precisely because it represented no break with the past. In fact, the allegations made against the Bush administration are that it was aware that things had suddenly changed at the 11th hour but that Congress was not told of it. More likely the intelligence was either substantially correct and the evidence was hidden post invasion or the estimates going back decades were wrong all along.

But back to the mosques. What would we do if it were determined the mosques, or some mosques were a threat? It would be a political hot potato that no one at all, least of all Democrats, would want to handle. Probably most Republicans wouldn't either. What logically follows from such a conclusion? Something the nation does not want to do. Just as what follows an official acknowledgment of Iranian belligerence doesn't bear contemplating. We don't want to go there, so it is absolutely vital that we not see what would make us go there. Always make the facts suit what you want or are prepared to do.

Unfortunately truth has a nasty habit of coming out in the end. Officialdom is sometimes belatedly forced to recognize that oops, there are terrorists in friendly Pakistan. Terrorists in friendly Saudi Arabia. That our "allies" are in cahoots with our friends. Belatedly. And only when denial will no longer serve. Then the important thing is to have plausible deniability. CYA.

This is how politicians operate. I think it was Winston Churchill or someone else who said that statesmanship is the art of recognizing the obvious and politics the craft of denying the evident. The official creed of all politicians is "I wear my sunglasses at night." The most you can expect of a politician is decency. Standards are low in that job. The US has the cream of the crop. Most of the rest of the world must make do with mass murderers, sadists, homicidal maniacs or looters tricked out as presidents.

What's in the mosques? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. And for all I know that's true or substantially true. But whatever the truth, it's better not to know.

5/02/2007 02:51:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I tend to agree with the author of this article:


My (our) generation's tasks:
(1) hold off the savages until we
(2) find an alternative to oil.

We must find an alternative to oil if no other reason than to make the savages irrelevant. I resent the fact that We spend so much time and effort dealing with these people. Why we should care if these barbarians kill or oppress one another is beyond me. Any diplomacy among the West and the Arab states is beneath us.

5/02/2007 04:11:00 AM  
Blogger Unknown said...

This is getting to be really silly. America sits and watches its valiant reporting from those "soldiers of truth" that have scanned the world, talking to all those who hate the United States. Back here, we receive thousands of words on why we are the bad people of this planet and deserve to be punished, on way or another. Meanwhile, our government leaders, those stalwart lawyers who understand what makes a person truly wise (if for no other reason than they were able to avoid any military experience, even via the national reserves-- you know that quasi military organization that was pumped up after Nam to offer the appearance of a strong nation), convince us that to solve this growing mass movement of hatred for western values, we only need to change control of our governmnet in all three branches to their party of wisdom. Meanwhile, we spend money like faster than Britney can cut off her hair! Shrinks will tell you that a cure of narcissism is damn near impossible, the best you can expect is to create some controls to limit it. Maybe our enemies will provide us with the "right kind of wake up call" this time. I thought 9/11 was good enough for me, but then being a veteran gives me a different perspective: I know when someone is trying to do me in!

5/02/2007 04:20:00 AM  
Blogger PeterBoston said...

We hear all the time about GWB's approval rating but fact is that depending on the polling date Congress is not trusted by as much as 75% of the US population. That is an astounding number.

Joe Six Pack is more than capable of gathering information about what's happening in the world and rationally assessing the implications. Contrast that with the narcissist freak show we see every day in Washington and you get a huge disconnect between the reality we see on the ground and the illusion we see in the NYT and on TV.

I think that one of the underpinnings of the American politic is that we really don't care who's in the WH or what they do in Washington so long as our daily lives are not directly impacted in a negative way. That is probably the way it should be. There is much to do.

There seems to be about a 40 year cycle where no matter where you look in government, the media, or even in science and academia there are no adults to be found anywhere. "It's not fair." "Jimmy hit me first." "Everybody else is doing it."

Why bother getting exercised about another Islamofreak threatening death and destruction?

5/02/2007 04:28:00 AM  
Blogger Deuce ☂ said...

a challenge of honor between Doug and Alllen

5/02/2007 06:21:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wretchard wrote: "My conclusion is that if the thought-scenario ever came true the politicians would freeze like deer in headlights. They'd take the dirty bomb and then make a big show of healing afterwards".

We saw this in Obama's response to the question of what he would do in the immediate aftermath of an attack - he first talked about better disaster preparedness. The same as Hillary did right after 9/11. The important thing is that the politicians should provide the "healing" and you can't heal unless there are blows inflicted on you first.

5/02/2007 07:17:00 AM  
Blogger John Aristides said...

Give him more than an victory, give him a miracle.

If the administration was smart, it would saturate foreign Mosques with spies. Get high quality video confirmation that a defeat in Iraq will be perceived as a religious miracle, a sign from God to go for our throat. I'm certain that such sermons happen with enough regularity that we could capture ten, twenty, forty -- enough to show the geographical breadth of the sentiment.

And then shock and awe the Congress with a well edited, professional quality highlight film, an unprecedented introduction to the State of the Union. Let rumors slip out that something very unusual will take place, so network coverage of the "mystery" will saturate our televisions and dominate the discussion for a few days. Confirm that, yes, something extraordinary will happen, but don't confirm specifics. That night, have sitting next to Laura ten or so of the top Muslim scholars/historians, and quote them verbatim in the speech. Admit the possibility of a Presidential mistake going in, but focus on catastrophic blunder of being seen chased out. "You may argue with my decision to show this, but you cannot argue that these scenes never happened." The theme of the speech: Eyes Wide Open.

Other than that, I don't see what else we can do. If we give them their miracle, the dervishes will come in bunches. Not good.

5/02/2007 07:22:00 AM  
Blogger 3Case said...

Haven't said it in a while, so here goes:

Slaughter now or slaughter later.
Slaughter later = slaughter more.

5/02/2007 07:22:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Slaughter now or slaughter later.
Slaughter later = slaughter more.

After all of the passive post-dirty bomb healing, after losing our friends and our paid eyes and ears in the hostile parts of the world, after all the CYA, there may be only a few options left.

I have often thought that the Tridents will be most likely to fly out of the ocean in some future Democratic administration.

5/02/2007 07:35:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...



Your courteous invitation offering satisfaction is noted. However, in the absence of fact, there is nothing to debate.

I will repeat the obvious, for the nth time: I do NOT know what happened at Haditha; Doug does NOT know what happened at Haditha; John Murtha does NOT know what happened at Haditha; those upon whom Doug relies for cut-and-paste materials do NOT know what happened at Haditha; and the MSM does NOT know what happened at Haditha.

In due course, through various legal fora, the FACTS of the multiple cases will be determined by the honorable men and women of the Armed Forces of the United States. These facts will become, then, the matter of public record.

Then, and only then, may INFORMED opinions be constructed and the legitimacy of the prosecutions and sentencing (if any) be reasonably ascertained.

The United States is a nation functioning under rule of law, not the whims men. During everyday of its existence, the United States Marine Corps has served to preserve and defend this uniquely American concept of social justice.

In the instance, attacks upon the military system of justice based solely on prejudice and UNIFORMED emoting is an attack on the Marine Corps and is unpatriotic. Indeed, such unfounded (albeit perfectly legal) abuse of free speech adds fuel to the engine driving the pro-jihadist undermining of American foreign policy (this being quite apart from the Administration’s self-inflicted injuries).

My complaints against SPECIFIC members of the military and SPECIFC military policies and procedures have been voluminous since 9/11. Rarely, however, have my complaints been registered without accompanying, verifiable, substantial FACTS of settled record.

It may be said, without boasting, that I understand the fundamental difference between fact and opinion. Consequently, a debate on Haditha would pit the ignorant against the preposterous.

Again, thanks, but no thanks.

5/02/2007 07:40:00 AM  
Blogger David M said...

Trackbacked by The Thunder Run - Web Reconnaissance for 05/02/2007
A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention.

5/02/2007 07:42:00 AM  
Blogger PeterBoston said...


You make a false assumption. The Congress, the Democrat majority at least, have exactly zero interest in what Islamonuts may be saying. In fact, they would do everything possible to prevent your movie from ever being seen. Why do you think PBS killed the segment on radical Islam? Islamofacism is a reality that is best ignored if not denied. If such things do not exist they do not have to be dealt with.

The Democrats are interested in winning the WH and increasing their number of seats in 2008. Period. There is nothing more important than that - including you and your children.

5/02/2007 07:42:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Bishara suspected of aiding Hizbullah for money

The gag order on the allegations made against former Knesset Member Azmi Bishara was lifted on Wednesday, three weeks after rumors began circulating regarding the investigation against him.

According to suspicions, Balad's chairman contacted a Hizbullah official during last summer's war in Lebanon and handed him information on strategic locations in Israel in order to enable the Shiite organization to fire rockets at these destinations.

Bishara allegedly received hundreds of thousands of shekels in exchange for this information.

This is a job for the Mossad, Bishara should be hunted down and killed.

No kinder, gentler Mossad, no poison like they tried to use on Meshal the Hamas leader.

No take a pistol with a suppresor on it and empty it is Bishara's head.

Make it simple like the good old days and be done with it.

Posted by Yoni Tidi

5/02/2007 07:42:00 AM  
Blogger dla said...

Just normal Wahhabbi-influenced "religion of peace" language.

I'm so glad GWB is in office. I shudder to think how it would be with either green-Al or Lurch in the driver's seat.

You folks should watch the movie "Obsesson, Radical Islam's War Against the West". There's much about the hatred of Jews that is common with the Nazis.

5/02/2007 07:47:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Allen and Deuce are refering to this thread.

Judge for yourself.

5/02/2007 07:50:00 AM  
Blogger Unknown said...

Aristides, you have my vote to create such an event. Smart idea.

My problem is that this administration appears bent on doing the exact opposite when it comes time to promoting and demonstrating their point of view via public education. Personally, I think this attitude can be best expressed by our President's old political slogan: "Compassionate Conservatism." Herein, I think, lies his weaknesses, hidden not so well, after all these years.

I have lost all respect for these people; am so disgusted, I recently changed my voting affiliation to independent. Even in this group, I still don't feel safe. This mass movement is gathering energies all over, in varying forms, destined to come to America's front shores and inward.

I don't think $5.00 per gallon gas, nor super high taxes with a raging recession will wake up most Americans, either. I think something bad has to happen, like Las Vegas, New York, etc. has to get hit with something nasty, or that smallpox problem via our airline industry gets activated.

Yea, my outlook is not rosy at all. After three years of watching the world's strongest country flounder in handing this Iraqi problem with no serious, winning end in sight...who wouldn't have a dark cloud following him with every thought. How could we get so lost trying to solve some of these bad problems?

5/02/2007 07:54:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

The Bargewell investigation has determined there was no coverup at Haditha.
LtCol Chessani is accused of a coverup.

Chessani is described by fellow officers as a focused, hands-on commander, a strict follower of the Law of War, and sympathetic to the plight of innocent Iraqi civilians.
He is a committed Christian with a wife and five children.

He has honorably served his nation for over nineteen years with tours of duty that included Panama, the first Persian Gulf War, and three combat tours in Iraq.

As I say, judge for yourself, being sure to include that the last investigation to date has determined there was NO Coverup.

5/02/2007 07:58:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

We do NOT know if OJ is Guilty or Innocent.

Only an LA, la la land jury KNOWS, and has DETERMINED, by consensus, that he is innocent!

5/02/2007 08:13:00 AM  
Blogger davidhamilton said...

The jihadis don't have to set off a dirty bomb in America to cause trouble. All they have to do is falsely claim that they have buried a nuclear weapon ... somewhere ... in this country. They will threaten to set it off when the time is ripe unless we comply with an ever-growing list of demands.

5/02/2007 08:25:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...

This could change things quickly:

Ally of Israeli leader seeks resignation

5/02/2007 08:52:00 AM  
Blogger George Bruce said...

And the American left is OK with this? Do they really think they will be killed last?

5/02/2007 09:36:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...

This news is worrisome, but not atypical of the administration. H/T Blackfive

Army Squeezes Soldier Blogs, Maybe to Death

Army Chief of Staff, General George Casey (late of Iraq fame), does not fare well in the comments section.

5/02/2007 09:50:00 AM  
Blogger PeterBoston said...


It's rather amazing that Olmert has lasted this long. The sight of Israeli soldiers waiting for orders on the Israeli side of the border while rockets fell on Israeli population centers says everything you need to know about Olmert, his cabinet, and every complicit military commander. They all should go - and quickly.

5/02/2007 10:15:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...



As Mat could better explain, I'm sure, Olmert knows how to keep his friends bought. Startling as it might seem, the guy's not done yet.

For the sake of national security, Israel needs strong leadership going into the summer; because many knowledgeable observers believe another war with Hezbollah is inevitable during that period. During this round, Israel may have to do what Olmert failed to do last year: take out Syria. Given the pent up frustration in Syria, caused in part by the influx of Iraqi Sunnis, another wave of uncontrollable refugees pouring in from Lebanon in the course of another war could help topple the Syrian government. Whether State would approve is doubtful.

As to Olmert’s conduct of the last war, I will go with Bolton: Mr. Bush was willing to give Olmert all the cover needed to destroy Hezbollah, but Olmert blinked.

Despite the pontificating and braggadocio of those who predict the defeat of the United States in Iraq, the enemy always gets a vote. As TigerHawk has just recounted, the Arabs and Persians have a knack for being on the wrong side of history.

In short, with or without Olmert, “It ain’t over till the fat lady sings.”

5/02/2007 10:44:00 AM  
Blogger John Aristides said...


The video would immediately change the debate. Instead of the nastiness of the fight, emphasis would shift to the consequences of defeat. I'm pretty confident that, if the video was played, avoiding the issues raised by it would be untenable for a national politician, Republican or Democrat.

That debate about long-term consequence is a loser for the Democrats. Bush just needs a way to frame that debate that is less theoretical and more visceral. He needs a way to make the conception of defeat more accessible to the average voter, more real. On those terms, the political wind shifts away from withdrawal, and therefore so will the Dems.

This won't happen, of course. It's too imaginative for Bush.

5/02/2007 11:23:00 AM  
Blogger Brian said...

Aristides wrote:

"This won't happen, of course. It's too imaginative for Bush."

I don’t think a lack of imagination is the reason it won't happen. It won't happen because Bush believes, and has invested all of his policy, on the fallacy that Islam is a "religion of peace". If he had such a film made (I don't think it would be hard - I suspect this kind of stuff is said in mosques every Friday all around the world) and distributed he would completely undercut much of what he has done and much of what he has advocated.

I thought I read somewhere that Bush said something like "if this becomes a war on Islam then we will lose". It appears that he will not even contemplate that this is a war against a very substantial percentage of Islam (the militant portion). As a consequence, his administration is paralyzed and the tide of the war has turned against us.

5/02/2007 12:31:00 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

Not sure but the audience sure don't look Sudanese to me

5/02/2007 12:49:00 PM  
Blogger wretchardthecat said...


I noticed the audience didn't look Sudanese either and figured this may have been a mosque frequented by Arabs.

5/02/2007 01:00:00 PM  
Blogger allen said...

“Two new polls published in Israeli newspapers Wednesday said some two-thirds of Israelis want Olmert to resign immediately. The surveys indicated that the hawkish former prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu of the opposition Likud Party, would likely win handily if new elections were held.”

Calls for Olmert to Resign Growing


5/02/2007 01:39:00 PM  
Blogger PeterBoston said...

MEMRI has been showing mosque films, Palestinian TV, and the Arab news stations for years now.

All the information you want is out there. The delusion is believing that the people who should care about it and maybe act on it really want to.

The Dems/MSM are in bed together and featuring the reality of pathological, fascistic Islam does not promote their common interests.

I suppose they assume they can deal with it when they get in power. Pack animals often hunt cooperatively even when they fight over the carcass.

5/02/2007 01:44:00 PM  
Blogger PeterBoston said...

I just received this editorial by email from the WSJ.
The Enemy of My Country Is My Friend

It talks about Pelosi's trip to Syria and why it had everything to do with keeping her position as Speaker.

It may difficult to get your head around it, but people like Kennedy (who agreed to cooperate with the KGB against Reagan), Kerry, and Carter, to name only the most obvious, are much more interested in promoting their own interests and their Leftist agenda than they are in promoting the interests of America - even if it means acting as an agent of the enemy.

5/02/2007 02:17:00 PM  
Blogger dla said...

Cruiser wrote
I don’t think a lack of imagination is the reason it won't happen. It won't happen because Bush believes, and has invested all of his policy, on the fallacy that Islam is a "religion of peace". If he had such a film made (I don't think it would be hard - I suspect this kind of stuff is said in mosques every Friday all around the world) and distributed he would completely undercut much of what he has done and much of what he has advocated.

Wrongoo! There are ~1.2 billion Muslims. Do you think the Saudi-Wahhabbist inspired clerics in dogwater spots like Palestine represent all of Islam?

The fact is that the squeaky camel is getting all the attention. Islamo-fascists of radical Islam are a small but violent segment of a very large religion.

Wahhabbism, an ultra-conservative sect founded in the late 1700's, financed by the Saudi's, is the root of radical Islam.

My point is the Bush the younger is right and wrong at the same time. Yes, mainstream Islam is "peace through submission to Allah", but the radical element is quite willing to kill first, and seek peace later.

We westerners get it wrong because we don't understand that Islam is both a religion, a government and a society at once.

5/02/2007 02:57:00 PM  
Blogger Brian said...

dla, I disagree that is a small number or small percentage. Poll after poll shows that very significant segments of Muslim populations support the extension of their religion (and submission of other religions) through violence and seek to be ruled under Sharia law (yes, political Islam is popular).

I agree that the fanatics are disproportionately noisy. But, the moderates we keep hearing about often are not moderate by western standards, judging by the poll results, and will have to be confronted if we want to keep the world we live in.

5/02/2007 03:21:00 PM  
Blogger exhelodrvr1 said...

"It won't happen because Bush believes, and has invested all of his policy, on the fallacy that Islam is a "religion of peace"."

Unfortunately, he was put between Iraq and a hard place. The only way he would have gotten any support, both international and domestic, was to couch the war in those terms.

5/02/2007 03:28:00 PM  
Blogger Yashmak said...

"I thought 9/11 was good enough for me, but then being a veteran gives me a different perspective: I know when someone is trying to do me in!"

It doesn't take a veteran's perspective to know that. On 9/11, I knew a few extremists wanted us to cease existing. What has changed in my mind, is the increasing frequency with which I see comments like this Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council makes. It doesn't take anything except common sense to realize that there is no disagreement or outrage present in his congregation. It doesn't take anything except common sense to realize that in the absence of outrage at such incendiary language, the ONLY reasonable thing we can believe is that his congregation wishes as he does. . .that every last American and Israeli should die.

Those who refuse to see an enemy who is announcing his own presence are fools.

5/02/2007 04:03:00 PM  
Blogger Pierre said...

DLA you are not paying attention if you believe that this represents only a small portion of Islam. Find the polls. Like the one in Indonesia you know that example of "moderate" Islam everyone likes to tout. In 2003 a stunning 56% of those "Moderate" Muslims thought Bin Laden was peachy keen. Thank goodness they have moderated now only 36% believe that to be true. Islam is the problem. It has been the problem since Mohammed decided it was easier to keep followers by giving them slaves, booty and victories. It has been that way since Mohammed himself the FOUNDER of that "Religion of Peace" began lopping off heads.

It has been a fantasy of the CIA that we only had to worry about a small band of Sunni Extremists...apparently they missed the part where the Shia's murdered us wholesale in Beruit.

5/02/2007 04:07:00 PM  
Blogger PeterBoston said...

The phrase moderate muslim is meaningless. To what aspect of Islam does the qualifying "moderate" apply? Does it mean sharia will have only sheiks and mullahs who do not approve suicide bombing the infidel, that women will not be stoned to death for being raped? Why use the phrase when it cannot be defined? You are deluding yourself.

Islam is a fundamentally flawed ideology. It's foundational narrative is military conquest, murder, robbery, and slavery. Its most important character would be doing 20 to life in any civilized country on earth were he alive today.

There are Islamic reformers, but they are only a handful and all are under a death sentence.

Do not kid yourself. Islam is a virus that mutates between benign and toxic depending only on how vigorously the host repels it.

5/02/2007 04:19:00 PM  
Blogger Darren Duvall said...

I'm thinking this Bahr guy needs an AGM-114 enema.

Then we can tell him, or addressing our comments to the greasy spot that used to be him, that we "didn't really mean it" and it was a "rhetorical" missile strike.

I find it ironic that we're nannied into "using our words" at the interpersonal and diplomatic levels, but when the words bespeak violence then inevitably "they don't really mean that." Decide, please.

Meanwhile, in addition to words I support using the other hallmark of primate intelligence: tools. If we happen to make the best flaked stones in the Tribe of Man, people should occasionally be reminded of that. Particularly when they're calling for the death of me & everybody else here.

I have to believe these words wouldn't go over very well...if the MSM ever reported it.

5/02/2007 04:26:00 PM  
Blogger Annoy Mouse said...

"Wahhabbism, an ultra-conservative sect founded in the late 1700's, financed by the Saudi's, is the root of radical Islam."

This doesn't do much to explain Shiia fanaticism or Iran for that matter. Though I wouldn't want to inadvertantly declare war against 1.2 billion people, I have little doubt that called to action, they'd, down to the toddler would gladly kill me. It is thorougly a religion of hatred and it is their highest belief that God will reward them for my murder. It is like trying to parse out the good Nazi's. Good luck.

5/02/2007 05:14:00 PM  
Blogger allen said...

Yesterday at TigerHawk, I raised the results of a poll cited by Andrew Bostom. The poll’s respondents were Moroccans, Egyptians, Pakistanis, and Indonesians.


__Muslims supporting an international “Islamic Caliphate” – 65.2%
__Those who would require “strict” Shari’a law for every Muslim country - 65.5%

In response, both DEC and Dawnfire82 questioned whether such polling could be reliable, given the nature of the cultures (I hope I have fairly summarized).

While I believe it is possible to conduct scientific polling in Sandmonkey’s Egypt, for example, I do take the points offered in good faith by DEC and Dawnfire82; there is the real risk of repression.

That said, how then is one to view comparable polling results from the UK, where Muslim fanatics feel perfectly at ease insulting, mocking, and humiliating high ranking officials on the street, in broad daylight?

No, “Moderate” Islam exists only in the minds of the willfully gullible.

“Facts are stubborn things and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictums of our passions, they cannot alter the state of the facts and evidences.”
___John Adams

Mainstream Caliphate Confessions


5/02/2007 05:23:00 PM  
Blogger lugh lampfhota said...

I think Bush is trying to win over the muslims he can to combat the fascist muslims. With all that oil that makes the world go 'round sitting in muslim lands from the cacuaus to the gulf, we need some muslims on our side.

5/02/2007 07:02:00 PM  
Blogger NotWhoIUsedtoBe said...

What lovely people. Why on earth do we care what happens to them? There are a lot of downtrodden on the planet who don't hate us and are much nicer besides. Let's send them money instead.

Any future historian will marvel at how we funded our own enemies. We buy oil from people who want to kill us, and send money to people who hate us.

This global warming nonsense is a great chance to get off oil and cut off all the money flowing to our enemies. Let's cynically use it to win the war :)

5/03/2007 12:34:00 AM  
Blogger Yashmak said...

Unfortunately, that only really helps if everyone else gets set up to rid themselves of dependence on oil too.

We're a large portion of the money going to these oil producing nations, but there's alot of other customers too.

5/03/2007 07:16:00 AM  
Blogger Pierre said...

With all that oil that makes the world go 'round sitting in muslim lands from the cacuaus to the gulf, we need some muslims on our side.

Course just because they are sitting on it doesnt mean they own it. We gave them their wealth by finding, drilling, pumping, refining and shipping the stuff that makes them richer than they ever dreamed whilst riding their camels about the desert. We could ungive them all of that wealth by simply overrunning the major fields and treating them like the children the want to be.

5/03/2007 10:10:00 AM  
Blogger 3Case said...

"They are cowards, who are eager for life, while we are eager for death for the sake of Allah."

I'm having a hard time reconciling that statement with: a.) the fact that our own major spiritual leader (the Pope) calls us "the Culture of Death"; and b.) the fact that their "fighters" tend to: 1.) hide and run away [in either order]; and 2.) attack unarmed civilians.

5/03/2007 10:21:00 AM  

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