Tuesday, November 28, 2006

To Be Or Not To Be

There's a tremendous thread over at Pajamas Media over the existence or non-existence of "Eurabia" which now features an actual exchange of replies between Paul Belien of the Brussels Journal and Ralph Peters himself, commenting for the first time on a blogpost. Belien, as some readers may know, has been warning for years of the creeping takeover of Europe by Islamic elements as expressed in the shorthand "Eurabia". On the other hand, Ralph Peters has argued that Eurabia is a myth. The ‘Eurabia’ Myth: Muslims Take Over Europe? Sorry, There’s No Chance  was recently authored by Peters in the NY Post. Far be it for me to choose between these two formidable polemicists. But since it's always fun to stir the pot, here's an article that just came out of the Daily Telegraph about Sharia spreading -- not in France -- but in Britain.

The BBC Radio 4 programme Law in Action produced evidence yesterday that it was being used by some Muslims as an alternative to English criminal law. Aydarus Yusuf, 29, a youth worker from Somalia, recalled a stabbing case that was decided by an unofficial Somali "court" sitting in Woolwich, south-east London. Mr Yusuf said a group of Somali youths were arrested on suspicion of stabbing another Somali teenager. The victim's family told the police it would be settled out of court and the suspects were released on bail.

So what do the police do? Take a wild guess.

Although Scotland Yard had no information about that case yesterday, a spokesman said it was common for the police not to proceed with assault cases if the victims decided not to press charges. ... Mr Yusuf told the programme he felt more bound by the traditional law of his birth than by the laws of his adopted country. "Us Somalis, wherever we are in the world, we have our own law," he said. "It's not sharia, it's not religious — it's just a cultural thing." ... Some lawyers welcomed the advance of what has become known as "legal pluralism". Dr Prakash Shah, a senior lecturer in law at Queen Mary University of London, said such tribunals "could be more effective than the formal legal system".

Now in fairness, Peters isn't arguing that there isn't a rising Islamic influence in Europe. Only that at some point the Europeans will bite back. Many of the discussants on the thread pointed out that Peter's historical parallel -- the gassing of the Jews -- involved the suppression of a minority representing 1% of the population, and cannot be compared to dealing with a militant, youthful population segment making up as much as ten percent of European populations. As I said I'm not going take a position. Just encourage youse guys to Read the Whole Thing.


Blogger allen said...

Talking about a galloping takeover of Lebanon,

All hell may breakout in Lebanon within the next two days. See LGF:
Lebanon on the Brink of Civil War


__Will the US bring armed force to bear to gain compliance with the much vaunted Franco-American UNSC Resolution 1701?
__Will Israel, as advertised, intervene in Lebanon to prevent its subversion by Hezbollah?
__Will Israel do the necessary thing and first knockout Syria on its way into Lebanon?

11/28/2006 10:06:00 PM  
Blogger wretchardthecat said...


Why am I not surprised at this turn of events? Not very long ago the diplomats were announcing a just and durable peace was at hand, or at least in train in Lebanon. That the UN, stuffed to the gills with the right kind of sensitive French troops, was on its way. Robust rules of engagement etc were put in place.

Well war hasn't broken out yet, nor do I want it to. But I'm wondering whether the diplomats haven't sold us a pig in a poke. Because now it looks as the Hezbollah, reammunitioned, tanned, rested and ready, also gets to choose when it will strike. And of course it will strike at the time of maximum political and military weakness of America and its allies. And it looks like it may, at the very moment when the diplomatic heads are urging us to make nice to Syria and Iran.

What has been gained except to ensure that the next round, when it comes will be far more destructive than the last? It's sadistic and cruel and doubtless somebody will get the Nobel Peace Prize for this whole reeking pile of dogs..t.

But wait! War hasn't started yet. Why don't those certified geniuses at the UN, who are so good at holding back Israel put out just a little effort to stop Hezbollah. Or are we asking, once again, the wrong question?

11/28/2006 10:38:00 PM  
Blogger allen said...



To one of your extraordinarily gifted posters, Harrison, I wrote yesterday that I have the impression that our elites are still clinging to a 1 August 1914 reality, while the time is actually 1 November 1914. A time when the Devil had been loosed on the world and no enticement would return him to his chains. We will all be amazed and I guess aghast at the world of 11 November 1918.

One of the very few positive silver linings in all this is the historic knack of the Arabs to overplay their hand. As Abbas rightly observed, "[They] have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity."

Thank you for the generous response. The service you perform is making a difference, despite the outlandishness of some of us.

11/28/2006 11:04:00 PM  
Blogger allen said...


My experience in southern Spain comports with your own. You may have found, as have I that, in both Spain and France, folkways are more representative than the declarations of the political elites.

May I take one small exception to your worthy assessment? I believe Islam IS in a period of reformation; in that, its most influential voices are calling for a return to a mythical "Golden Age" of doctrinal purity. While only one man's opinion, Islam desperately needs the trauma of a Renaissance and Enlightenment.

Unfortunately, time is now so compressed and technology so advanced that we of the West haven't the luxury of holding Islam at bay until natural evolution brings about the desired changes of perspective. The age of the canvas sail, the Venetian trireme, Mamaluke cavalry, and bronze black powder cannon are long gone. Therefore, it is incumbent on the West to artificially speed the evolutionary process; something that will be painful to all.

Best wishes!

11/28/2006 11:51:00 PM  
Blogger Das said...

What is amazing is that the question - will we fight or go under? - is now moving to the center. Go back and read Saul Bellow's 1976 Nobel acceptance speech. He thought this was the central question of the age; granted, he suggested it in the context of the Cold War but he also associated it with the series of shocks that comprises the public life of modern man.

I tend to side with Belien on this one. European anti-Semitism went back centuries - and back into the dark ages when the Jews were hard pressed to survive themselves much less do anything to hurt Christian Europeans. When the chance for integration within Europe came after Napoleon the Jews went for it in good faith and with their whole hearts. Nevertheless, German militarism decreed that Jews had no right to live and they set about making that a reality. The main crime of the Jews - according to the Nazis - was wanting to live.

Does any of this sound analogous to today's Muslim immigrants to Europe?

11/29/2006 12:05:00 AM  
Blogger Fat Man said...

I think that Peters is right in sofar as he reminds us that history is not linear and that it often proceeds by a series of reactions. My guess would be that either Europe will take this problem in hand or that there will be a real blow-up, but that does not tell you very much.

11/29/2006 12:25:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...

Someone, DLA as I recall, raised a simple, poignant thought on another thread: how do you negotiate with a man who can be satisfied with nothing less than your death? A great point when viewed from the perspective of a deathrow inmate, whose fate is sealed. All that inmate has left to negotiate is the time of execution. This, more than anything else, seems to define the Olmert government. To be completely fair, Mr. Olmert is merely the apogee of decades of such governance.

Very soon, Israel must ask itself whether it is willing to do what is required for survival.

11/29/2006 01:04:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...


You too have seen the force of Borat. ;-) Actually no small matter, that.

Your points are well taken and clearly reasoned, always a blessing.

Having spent much time in France and some lesser time in Turkey, I agree that most ordinary folk just want to get on with living in peace. There is, however, that violent 10%, who scare the living hell out of everyone else. This is the weakness of the West: the failure to see the law of the veldt, where the ratio of predators to prey is 1:15. Apparently, the French et al assume the danger of collapse will come only when Muslims comprise 50% plus one person. No, France will fall when the violent demographic of probably less than 10% asserts itself against a bovine population.

I completely agree with you on the lost chances to exploit Islam's weaknesses. But, as I am sure you know, to do so would require an earthquake, displacing the status quo.

11/29/2006 01:46:00 AM  
Blogger Deuce ☂ said...

It is an historic unnatural act for Europeans to be at peace with each other. Europeans are like all human beings, tribal. More so.

Think that not so, then look what the Serbs did to the Muslims in Kosovo. They drove them out. They did it efficiently and successfully. Clinton and NATO objected to the Christian Serbs wishing to defend their territory and culture from Albanian Muslims who illegaly immigrated to Kosovo and took it over.

The Christian Serbs objected to the crimes of the Albanians and the burning of Christian Churches.

Please do not underestimate the viciousness, cruelty and desire for revenge that is in the breast of most men.

And regarding France, visit any ancient Christian Church and notice the defaced statues and artifacts. They are reminders of The French Revolution and the anger, violence and revenge that rests within the hearts of the Euroweenie French.

Muslims in Europe, watch your flanks.

11/29/2006 04:04:00 AM  
Blogger Marcus Aurelius said...

Mark Steyn has been in on this fight as well.

Mark wrote a column how the demography favors the Islamification of Europe. Ralph thinks sooner or later Europe will spasm and we (as in the US) will be deploying armed forces to help get the Muslim population alive out of Europe.

Mark Steyn contends the age characteristics of the population means 200 20 year-olds are going to muscle 1000 80 year olds and European church bells will be replaced with 5x a day call to prayer.

Mark is correct. Even if Europe would spasm what kind of muscle would be behind it?

11/29/2006 05:10:00 AM  
Blogger Oengus said...

In so many words, as Mark Steyn said in his recent book "America Alone": "when it comes down to a battle between 200 teenagers and 800 octogenarians, bet on the teenagers."

11/29/2006 06:51:00 AM  
Blogger Richard H said...

In a monocultural society - even as small a society as a family or a community - it is natural to take the law into your own hands, to have your own communal way of dealing with things. The challenge comes in a multicultural society, in a society not rules by a monolithic set of norms. As far as I can tell, all European societies are now examples of the latter.

11/29/2006 07:30:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...


While we are forever hearing about the French, I am inclined to think it will be the Germans who eventually take a stand, if one is ever taken.

You are so right, many Europeans are selectively pacific. Any American wanting to see aggression, need only walk down almost any street in Madrid or shop at the grocery in Montelupo or go to a flea market in Trier or visit the Louvre between the hours of 1100 – 1500. As you know, one of the major complaints of American tourists is the lack of respect for personal space shown by Europeans. (The unwillingness to use antiperspirants comes in a very close second.)

11/29/2006 08:07:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...

Mrs. Davis,

re: Thirty Years' War

Patience. Patience.

11/29/2006 08:08:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...


I'll raise you two Jehovah's Witnesses.

11/29/2006 08:10:00 AM  
Blogger wretchardthecat said...

richard h,

There are two architectures for a multicultural society. The first is represented by its political analogue, representative democracy. In that model there are many competing ideas but they come to closure when a vote is taken and but one outcome results from the many input streams.

In the second model there are many competing ideas but no closure. In example of Sharia in Britain described in the article the two legal systems compete and since they are different will probably clash. And the Muslim interviewed for the article declares his choice for Sharia over British law beforehand.

What many people think of as multiculturalism is really the cultural extension of political democracy. E Pluribus Unum. But the more fashionable definition is a multiculturalism that continues to diverge. This divergence carried far enough, is a recipe for conflict. So it is no surprise that the danger, at least, of conflict is a worry to anyone who tracks the post-modern "multicultural" system.

The glue that holds multiculturalism together is fundamentally regulatory and economic. Thus, state-supported Islam, welfare, hate-speech codes are all part of the European approach to managing multiculturalism. But as Papa pointed out the impact of ruinous welfare payments to unintegrated, unemployed immigrants begins to dissolve the very cement which holds the centrifugal forces of multiculturalism in check. An shrinking productive population and a burgeoning unproductive one creates a spiral of decay from which there is probably no escape.

If Peter's analysis has any merit it lies in this: when the glue-money runs out then quo vadis? The only chart Peters can find to guide him are the history of pogroms. But the demographics were different then.

I will venture the view that whether Belien or Peters is correct critically depends on the rate at which this crisis, or whatever you want to call it, develops. Another thirty years of demographic collapse and it may all be academic. But will the demographic collapse continue? Only three decades ago the Western world worried about overpoulation. Now they are worried about extinction. The future is hard to predict, probably because it hasn't happened yet. Who will prove right between Belien and Peters? Those who are young enough to stick around will get to see.

11/29/2006 08:12:00 AM  
Blogger Brian said...

Bart Hall, to Mark Steyn's point, your 70-year-old Dutch mother-in-law better get busy. It won't get any easier for her and her comrades when they are 80.

I think, in fact, your anecdote is probably very accurate - at least to show why Ralph Peters may be correct about European predilections, but wrong about their ability to carry them out.

11/29/2006 08:44:00 AM  
Blogger Kinuachdrach said...

It is worth noting a fascinating aspect of the discussion on PajamasMedia -- the substantial undercurrent of European Anti-Americanism and (to a lesser extent) American exasperation with antagonistic Europe.

If the Eurabian situation does come to a head, it is quite likely to trigger a number of other conflicts -- as Europeans blame the US for their own problems, and Russians move in on a prostrate Europe, and the Chinese move in on rich but empty Russian Siberia, and the Iranians drive the Arabs from the Gulf ...

Who will the US side with in this new World War? Or will the US choose to sit it out? Or will the tensions within the US lead once more to Civil War?

And what will become of North Korea's nuclear capabilities? We live in Interesting Times.

11/29/2006 08:51:00 AM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

American Civil War?

11/29/2006 09:00:00 AM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Who would the globe side with? You'd think the Blues--but, not the Chinese.

11/29/2006 09:05:00 AM  
Blogger Andrew Zalotocky said...

Peters bases his argument on a caricature of Europeans as bloodthirsty racist brutes. He talks as though all "Europeans" are exactly the same and all share the characteristics of the worst historical specimens. It's as lazy and bigoted as a French intellectual dismissing all Americans as obese Bible-thumping hicks.

Belien is far more rational, but is too quick to assume that nobody will do anything. For example, France's violent ghettos are a serious problem, but order could be quickly restored if there was the political will to use the necessary level of force. Chirac is too decadent to address any of France's problems, but he is just a temporary impediment to change. In Europe generally, the public's growing anger towards Islamists and increasing scepticism towards the bland platitudes of multiculturalism will force change. But it will come through mainstream politicians reacting to the shift in public opinion, not from neo-Nazis seizing power.

As for the story in The Telegraph, it describes people going to unofficial "courts" because they find the official system intimidating and hard to use. That's a problem, but you need to understand that many non-Muslim Britons are also losing confidence in the police and courts. Many people see the justice system as weak and paralysed by bureaucracy and political correctness. So the Muslims it describes are not so far outside mainstream sentiment as the headline implies. Indeed, when "the elders sit together and reprimand people" who are misbehaving that just sounds like civil society in action.

Of course there may well be a more overt political agenda at work, but if so The Telegraph does not provide evidence of it.

Finally, here's a more optimistic view. The Eurabia hypothesis assumes that Muslims will steadily outbreed non-Muslims until they dominate European society, without assimilating in the process.

But the Islamists are driven by rage, so they do not have the patience to wait for a slow demographic change. They want a fight to the death right now. Therefore their rage compels them to force a decisive confrontation with the rest of society before they are in a sufficiently strong position to win it.

11/29/2006 09:36:00 AM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Allen, re "logical connection", here are two future descriptions of the first decade of the 21st century:

1) "After a few renegade psychopaths performed a few acts of terror against the West, the West over-reacted with a bloody Crusader war that smashed the righteous and noble attempt by Islam to reform itself."

2) "After a prolonged and painful attempt to offer the oppressed peoples of Islam a modern form of government that would enable Islam to coexist peacefully with its neighbors, the West was forced, reluctantly, to crush a jihadist movement standing in the way of world peace."

I think that's the logical connection, for better or for worse.

11/29/2006 10:00:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oengus Moonbones said, "In so many words, as Mark Steyn said in his recent book 'America Alone': "when it comes down to a battle between 200 teenagers and 800 octogenarians, bet on the teenagers."

Age & treachery will always overcome youth & strength

11/29/2006 10:46:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...


I'm not trying to be a wise ass, but I don't get it. If my neighbor attempts to murder me, my first response is not to remodel his house and landscape his yard. Whether you prefer logic or rationality matters not; nation building could not have been the reasonable response to the provocations of Islam, first seen on the American homeland on 9/11.

The two premises you posit will be true for two parties viewing the events from different perspectives. Therefore, both can be equally true, depending on one's relative position. The common thread in both is violence.

11/29/2006 10:58:00 AM  
Blogger Tarnsman said...


I would add a third scenario

3) "After a prolonged and painful attempt to offer Islam a way for it to coexist peacefully with the rest of the world, the West, after a renegade jihadist group unleashed a WMD against (fill in your favorite major city here), blindly struck back in furious rage by annihilating several Islamic cities. Seeing that they, their religion and civilization could and would be wiped off the face of the earth, the people of Islam rose up against the jihadists in their midst.”

Kinuachdrach, an all out civil war in the US ain’t going to happen. The country faced and defeated those demons in the 1860s. Yes, we squawk and bicker among ourselves. Such is the nature of our democracy. Yes, there are the occasional riots. But the country splitting in two and warring? Over what issue? Only in the wet dreams of the Europeans and jihadists. The world goes into a hand basket like you describe and Americans will quickly set aside our minor differences. Someone attacks us and the untied battle flags of the nation will be unfurled. Of that there should be no doubt. All of the hand wringing and second guessing going on right now in the US over the WoT is the result of the homeland not being attacked since 9/11. Happens again, and no one will pay attention to the anti-war/appeasement crowd.

11/29/2006 10:58:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Ahhh, but when youth and vigor is led by those that have experience and are treacherous ...

11/29/2006 11:00:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...


On a genuinely serious note, where is WC?

Have you ever seen a robin weep...
I'm so lonesome I could cry.

11/29/2006 11:00:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...


re: no one will pay attention

For months after 9/11, the pacificists couldn't have gotten media coverage even by immolation. It was a refreshing pause.

11/29/2006 11:04:00 AM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Allen, you know the meme war has to be fought. It's what drives, or does not drive, the jihad's future. We need to win both wars, the tangible and the intangible, too. Of course I agree that given no option but to choose between them, the tangible is first.

11/29/2006 11:07:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Shame on you as you prattle on distracting us from the central problem here:
Bush slaughtering Palestinians!?
This is a very sad day.
Bush has become a symbol of bigotry and injustice toward Arabs and Muslims," said Mustafa Nimer, a 32-year-old Jordanian engineer.

"There he is slaughtering my brothers in Palestine and Iraq and is now hosted and feted by our leaders."
al Reuters

11/29/2006 11:10:00 AM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Allen, it boils down to "pretext', as rat often reminds. We simply must quit blowing our pretexts. The enemy is wiley enough to have begun measuring them very carefully. Witness the several brigades' (?) worth of fighting power 'equivalent' that the Hez wrung out of the "proportionality" meme in Leb2 last summer. need an answer next time. Or else just tell the world (whatever that is) to go f itself.

Lord, if only the American press was currently pulling out the "Abu Graib" stops, on Gemayel.

11/29/2006 11:15:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

What does anyone propose as a solution for Europe if they DON'T get rid of the Muslims???

11/29/2006 11:16:00 AM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Doug, call it the "Czar's Dream Come True". KGB will be pulling Eurabia's strings--the Muzzies won't have the tech brainpower to operate their new toys. Not an IQ problem, a 'lost education' problem.

11/29/2006 11:25:00 AM  
Blogger Charles said...

what's not generally understood is that without christianity the europeans are as vulnerable to islam as african anamists. secular humanism makes them so many jungle bunnies before the muhhamadins.

imho in the end the Europeans will kickout the Eurabians. But the Europeans will endure a lot more pain before that happens and it won't happen until the continent returns to christianity (which will in turn restore their historical memory--of which they currently have none.)

imho the Eurabians will be sent to north africa and the middle east to fill a critical labor gap when the fourth wave of civilization hits as a result of the collapse in the cost of solar power and water desalination.

Solar power using reflector dishes has already met the price specs of coal electrical generating plants. Photo voltaics are about 2-3 years from doing the same thing. Water desalination & transport is 6-7 years from a 10 fold collapse in cost.

11/29/2006 11:25:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Even before they lost it they never caught up with the Greeks!
Ancient Computer Surprises Scientists

A computer in antiquity would seem to be an anachronism, like Athena ordering takeout on her cellphone.
But a century ago, pieces of a strange mechanism with bronze gears and dials were recovered from an ancient shipwreck off the coast of Greece.

Historians of science concluded that this was an instrument that calculated and illustrated astronomical information, particularly phases of the Moon and planetary motions, in the second century B.C.
Dr. Charette noted that more than 1,000 years elapsed before instruments of such complexity are known to have re-emerged. A few artifacts and some Arabic texts suggest that simpler geared calendrical devices had existed, particularly in Baghdad around A.D. 900.

11/29/2006 11:33:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...

At the EB, DR just reported the abortion of the Bush-Maliki meeting in Amman.

Messrs. Maliki and al-Sadr have just pissed on the sacrifices of the US on behalf of their country.

Come on Mr. Bush, get your face on the tube and tell them to "Bite it!"

11/29/2006 11:35:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Was the life of the Mother of this Monstrosity at risk?

11/29/2006 11:42:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Allen said, "At the EB, DR just reported the abortion of the Bush-Maliki meeting in Amman."

Why should the President work a soon-to-be-out-of-work Iraqi PM into his taight schedule?

11/29/2006 11:45:00 AM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Yep, doug--we were well on our way to today 1000 yrs sooner, except for that darn 'Dark Ages' thingie.

11/29/2006 11:47:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Allen's Mysterious EB Reference

11/29/2006 11:47:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

At the now well known EB Locus:

skipsailing said...
Now I wonder about the timing of the leaked memo. Is Maliki responding to that?

2:43 PM, November 29, 2006

Doug said...
Iraq the Model's latest post fits in perfectly with the issue at hand.

2:46 PM, November 29, 2006

11/29/2006 11:49:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Charles said, "imho in the end the Europeans will kickout the Eurabians. But the Europeans will endure a lot more pain before that happens and it won't happen until the continent returns to christianity"

In the interim, there will be a second "Avignon Papacy", possibly to Latin America, when the Islamoids overrun the Boot.

11/29/2006 11:53:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...

Drive By Blogger,

I am going to try again. Maliki just pissed on the people of the United States. Frankly, I don't give a rat's rear about who is working whom.

11/29/2006 12:27:00 PM  
Blogger Kinuachdrach said...

Tarnsman wrote: "an all out civil war in the US ain’t going to happen. The country faced and defeated those demons in the 1860s. ... But the country splitting in two and warring? Over what issue?"

One view of American history is that it has been a continuing Civil War. "Americans" fought on both sides of the War of Independence, and many colonists on the losing side left rather than become citizens. The Civil War, of course, also pitted Americans against each other. Some historians note a now-ignored strong pro-German element in the US in WW1. WW2 may have been the exception, but the remembered unity of purpose was achieved with lots of informal censorship and rounding up of potential dissidents. Korea was largely ignored. Vietnam became an American civil war fought in someone else's back yard.

Now look at the language today of those on the lunatic wing of the Democrat Party. Their attitude is not one of gentlemanly disagreement with respected fellow citizens. The tensions are there. Whether those tensions will subside with time is an open question. Interesting Times!

As to what issue might exacerbate the tensions between Americans -- it is not hard to imagine (for example) that, following widespread rioting & chaos in parts of Europe, an element of the old Euro-Socialists would request Russia to intervene and "restore order". Other elements in Europe's power structure might resist the fraternal Russian advance. Today's US would be severely polarized over the response to those kind of events, and the US military might find itself having to intervene -- in the US. Interesting Times!

11/29/2006 12:31:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

les demoiselles d avignon, with which picasso invents Cubism.

11/29/2006 12:33:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

I think just a few midnight vigilante squads of off-duty cops could do wonders. Brazil is an economic and social miracle right now--and one thing that has made life great for millions is just that sort of quiet vigilantism. When the laws and the lefties become enough of an impediment to peaceful streets, it's a type of organic reaction. I know what I sound like, saying that, and I apologize--but it is indeed a thing facing France, now, isn't it? The insurgents are citizens after all. Laws are supposed to control crime. What if they can't, or won't?

11/29/2006 01:02:00 PM  
Blogger geoffgo said...

I might envision a civil war in the US by considering the fact that there are about 6M Muslims here at home; perhaps more than half US citizens.

As the pan-Islamic nature of this conflict becomes clarified, any attempt to fix the problem here will call forth the hordes; i.e, only 10% being ready to standup for Mo means we have an insurgency of 600K, supported by perhaps 30% more, plus all the leftwing nutbats and human shields.

Horrendous, but necessary to contemplate. So, whose side will the by then overwhelmed law enforcement be on?

11/29/2006 01:30:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

I'm betting on the sans-culottes!

11/29/2006 01:46:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Depends on the armed forces. Which side will they shoot?

11/29/2006 01:57:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Maybe France has already thrown in with the Jihad--or at least the Caspian Axis?

11/29/2006 02:06:00 PM  
Blogger enscout said...

I don't know about nation building but I think we both agree that Islam needs reform if it is to survive. Many here talk about Islam reforming Itself. I don't see how that's possible.
Like an insane man, Islam must be reformed by folks outside the fold. They don't see the dysfunction. They don't see the crazy.

11/29/2006 02:11:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Cedarford said, "Whack a few cities full of Islamoids, distribute photos of the pitiful survivor remnants of the Muslims and Lefty traitors that fight with them --- and the Muslims would know the gig's up and dutifully file onto the cattleboats returning them to the Ummah."

Name one example from history when fear convinced Muslims to "dutifully" relinquish land once it had been conquered by Islam.

11/29/2006 02:13:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

DbB, Grenada, 1492?

11/29/2006 02:19:00 PM  
Blogger allen said...


re: reformation

I can't think of anything I said that would make you think otherwise. As I have repeatedly tried to make clear, Islam is undergoing a reformation, following exactly along the lines you set forth. The reformers believe that the will of Allah, as dictated in the Koran, is being muffled under the influence of modernity.

11/29/2006 02:58:00 PM  
Blogger Hayek said...

Can anyone point to a civilization that has remained vibrant where those of child bearing age refuse to produce the next generation? That's the reality of most of presnt day Europe. Demography may not be the sole determinant of a civilization's future but without the next generation there is no future.

11/29/2006 03:50:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Brownsville, Texas, on the Rio grande, is across from Spanish-named Matamoros, Mexico. "Mata Moros" = "Kill the Moors".

11/29/2006 04:21:00 PM  
Blogger Db2m said...

Sheesh, a noble duel of semantics. Positive vs. negative "Islamic reformation", mark of cue rules.

11/29/2006 04:25:00 PM  
Blogger Marcus Aurelius said...


The question is when does the spasm come? The longer in coming the more violent it will be and if too late it will not come.

From various stories I have heard when the Euros are not condemning the racist USA and Aparthaid Israel they can be exceedingly nasty. It was the French who blew up the Rainbow Warrior.

As far as Europe getting its labor from Muslim lands. Yeah, you are right there is nothting that says the labor needs of Europe have to be satisfied from Muslim lands, however its a lot quicker, easier, & cheaper trip from Morroco than lets say Manila.

However, the fact that Paul Belein is viewed as a big threat in Belgium does not give me hope.

11/29/2006 05:03:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

The near enemy is demoralization.

11/29/2006 05:16:00 PM  
Blogger allen said...

buddy larsen,

re: demoralization

Great link!

11/29/2006 05:56:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

It's from instapundit, allen, as is this one, about the Witness Who Wasn't There.

11/29/2006 06:00:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Fred said, "So what if he has spent some time in the M.E. and has rubbed elbows with some sheiks? He does not know or understand the power of the religious motivations and vision of those people."

When Palestinians answer the complete pullout of Israel from Gaza by launching even more rockets, thereby putting lie to the whole "land4peace" meme, there may be religious motivations present, but "vision" is sorely lacking.

11/29/2006 06:43:00 PM  
Blogger Marcus Aurelius said...


Its the same thing that happens here in the States. Mexico is so much closer so we have problems with immigration from Mexico rather than the Philippines or Uruguay.

The GCC states have the same problem with a lot of illegal immigration coming via the short boat ride from the Subcontinent.

In Dec of 92 after the Ayodha riot in India the UAE deported over 10,000 illegals from Pakistan. I am quite sure a number of Illegal Philippinos and Malaysians (and so on) were also given one way tickets out of the nation, but the majority came from nearby.

If you are looking for someone to walk the streets to pick up the cigarette butts why go way over the oceans when you can hire nearby? If you are looking for a skilled engineer than yeah you don't restrict the search as much as one would normally.

11/29/2006 06:51:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anointiata Delenda Est wrote: [...]And just to reinforce the Darwinian process, we have now given them the Internet.

Personally, I feel that the Darwinian paradigm is two-fold. First, as you mentioned, the fundamentalist rejection of "morally depraved" American culture (diametrically opposed to their religion) and the creeping threat of cultural imperialism.

Sadly, the MSM prefers to sensationalise and tabloidise depressingly familiar news like a broken record. Bulletins remain stuffed to the brim with nauseating, copious accounts of Iraqis murdering Iraqis, Americans murdering Iraqis, Iraqis murdering Americans. You get the idea.

This biased, almost pornographic fixation, even infatuation, with the desire to showcase the one-sided barbarism and inhumanity, of wholesale demonisation of not only the insurgents, terrorists but the entire Arab peoples in the Middle East - this engenders the second form of Darwinism, a manifestation of the derogatory attitudes former European colonialists in India, Philippines, French Indochina adopted (and one we should not revisit).

Much less emphasis is given to the creditable nation-building process, of the struggle for liberty, equality, fraternity - perhaps this is glorifying it a bit too far - and for liberal democracy. If globalisation has worked wonders such that cultural imperialism is even possible, why are we not utilising that very same vehicle to demonstrate to the Iraqis the tangible benefits of the very ideals we stand for: democracy, representation, suffrage, equality?

Note that this is not akin to foisting the tenets of liberal democracy on to the pre-existing Iraqi non-democratic political infrastructure - that proved to be disastrously costly in blood. We need to execute a propaganda war against the MSM: a cultural revolution, if you must - to shake off the intellectual yoke of deep-seated social Darwinism, and to expound on the very real advances that the Iraqis have made.

Intellectuals have entrenched in our minds that Western societies are progressive, and Arab/Muslim counterparts are regressive or in stasis, trapped within the traditional confines of religion and parochial culture. True, perhaps their societies are backward, but that does not grant us carte blanche to impose our will - be it culturally, politically or otherwise - on them.

Gramscian Damage states this as well: Even the few fanatics and revolutionary idealists we have, whatever their political flavor, expect everybody else to behave like a bourgeois.

Yet this is exactly what the MSM is surreptitiously suggesting: the Arabs and Muslims are so barbaric and utterly irrescuable from the chasms of depravity and inhumanity that we should either

a)leave them to slaughter themselves ala "cut-and-run" because we are simply too advanced in our intellectual and social thought to talk to these "savages"; or

b) exterminate their populations in entirety as Ralph Peters has unconscionably put forward, because they "deserve" it for being inherently incompatible with Western, progressive ideals

Quoted from Gramscian Damage: The worst way would be through a reflex development of Western absolutism — Christian chauvinism, nativism and militarism melding into something like Francoite fascism.

wretchard wrote: The glue that holds multiculturalism together is fundamentally regulatory and economic.

Agreed. The thing that bothers me is the fundamental incompatibility of multiculturalism and an integrated, stable Europe in the future. Multiculturalism entails a non-ethnocentric respect (not tolerance) for other cultures - this is obviously not the case as segregration and ghettoisation have shown that both Europeans and Muslims simply tolerate each other as long as they live apart.

European governments, especially the British, have taken a transactional form of governance with respect to their Muslim enclaves. Material benefits are promised to the Muslims in exchange for their support for the government - through welfare, unemployment benefits and the like. Yet when the government fails to deliver on those promises, the fragility of such a form of governance is betrayed. What is needed is a fostering of transformational governance, of a collective, integrative moral consciousness among Europeans and Muslims alike.

Again, if you may, I would like to quote the article on Gramscian Damage: The reduction of Western politics to a bitter war for government favor between ascriptive identity groups is exactly the outcome the Soviets wanted and worked hard to arrange.

Yet that is impossible considering the incompatibility of sharia and European law. Thus, we might be forced to accept that shaky, transactional governance is the best we can do if we still embrace multiculturalism. Otherwise, the alternative in the long-term might, regrettably but necessarily, what Cedarford suggests:

Muslims are easily replacable by peoples in other lands. They can be dumped and switched out with safer cultures if they fail to adopt and threaten Europe's existence.

Safer cultures that would love a chance to leave a lower standard of living and truly become French or Portugese or English or Spanish or Italian or Dutch in return for the privilege of being welcomed in.

Tragically, the segmentalism and segregation have perpetuated an ideology of resentment and radicalisation so ingrained and self-fulfilling that the issue is no longer as simple as economic deprivation.

fred wrote: Knowing that they cannot alter, black out, or "reinterpret" what they have read about a whole range of themes and topics, they begin to get the idea that holding hands with Islamists may not be a good idea.

VDH posted something about literal interpretation of Islamic teachings here a few days back.

Thanks for the article reference, buddy. Now to get back to that long article on postmodern leftists in Europe, and transnational progressivism.

11/29/2006 07:08:00 PM  
Blogger Reliapundit said...

peters is an idiot.

once the muslims outmuber the christians, jews, and atheists, then IT IS ALL OVER!

none of the natives arte reproducing ata reoplacement rate, and none are fighting back.

they let the muslims set up sharia enclaves - which will just expand.

it is nearly INEVITABLE.

11/29/2006 07:17:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Reliapundit said, "once the muslims outmuber the christians, jews, and atheists, then IT IS ALL OVER!"

It's one thing to trigger a howitzer round with a garage door opener you hide in your borrowed burqua along with your hairy face, but numbers are no match against Western technology, Western training, and Western esprit d'corps.

11/29/2006 08:52:00 PM  

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