Monday, November 07, 2005


The Times of London has a handy table of the numbers of cars burned during each day of the French riots. Tim Blair and Mark Steyn have called this metric the Car-B-Q. A graph showing the numbers of cars Car-B-Qed against day is shown below.


Two inflection points immediately jump out. The first occurs on Day 6 when the car burnings really took off after trending flat for the previous 5 days. I think this represents the missed opportunity to deal with the riots at an early stage, either with large concessions or large crackdowns. I don't think it mattered which as long as the authorities acted decisively, which they didn't, because this was the period when the French government stood paralyzed like a deer in headlights.

The second inflection point is Day 11, when the graph appears to be flattening out. Appears because Day 11 is also the day in which the modality of the disturbances began to change from Car-B-Qs to arson against churches, schools and buildings combined with shooting attacks against police officers. But clearly it may be the case that the French riots may be running out of steam and therefore susceptible to the countermeasures the government is now putting in place. Let's wait and see.


Blogger Karridine said...

Easy, isn't it? Looks easy, should be easy, it IS the government's job... but TO MAKE A DECISION just slips through the moment, and the intellectually constipated, spiritually bankrupt governmant of France DITHERS...

While I am beaten to death for trying to extinguish my blazing trash-can!

11/07/2005 04:21:00 PM  
Blogger Baron Bodissey said...

But is the intifada spreading to other parts of Europe?

Suggested reading:
The Brussels Journal -
fjordman -
Peaktalk -
Viking Observer -

11/07/2005 04:27:00 PM  
Blogger Bruce said...

Wretchard, are those per-day numbers or running totals? If those are per-day numbers then the situation may be more dire.

11/07/2005 04:40:00 PM  
Blogger John Aristides said...

If the riots end, then what? Both camps have been exposed, and both identities have been hardened. They may take a break to rejoice in their gains or to lick their wounds, as the case may be, but I think we have passed the point of no return.

I think we must admit something horrific. In Europe, and for the foreseeable future, the line of demarcation, the line that demands to know who you are with, us or them, is now outside Islam. Just a couple weeks ago it was within.

11/07/2005 04:43:00 PM  
Blogger John Aristides said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

11/07/2005 04:45:00 PM  
Blogger John Aristides said...

Or so we thought. Maybe the line never was inside Islam. Maybe it never will be.

11/07/2005 04:46:00 PM  
Blogger wretchardthecat said...


Per day totals. Not cumulative.

11/07/2005 04:47:00 PM  
Blogger wretchardthecat said...


I don't think the Islam has won the disaffected yet. But as I said in my initial post on the riots some days ago, a nation is being born. Whether that nation will belong to the Idea of France or to Islam is what the next few days will determine.

Right now the Idea of France is represented by Dominique de Villepin and his Minister for Social Cohesion. Therefore I am very afraid.

11/07/2005 04:53:00 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

Bruce, based on what I've read those seem to be per-day totals. I expect that if the CarBQ trend is flattening it's only because the rioters are upgrading to more violent activities. CarBQ is a Geffen good, apparently.

One of the Powerline guys made the inciteful comment than these riots are only facially similar to the US race riots which burned through Newark and elsewhere. Those riots came at the tail end of a largely peaceful and pro-American Civil Rights movement lead by the likes of Dr. Martin Luther King. These French riots are how France's civil rights era are beginning, and will set the tone of all future debates on the subject.

As for a matter of time scale, consider that English colonists brough over Africans to the USA three hundred years ago, emancipated them 150 years ago, and passed the Civil Rights Act 50 years ago - and look where we are today. Europe is way, way down the curve on this, and the American experience should inform us as to how long this might take to fully resolve. I expect an accelerated path for Europe, since we've already set the trend and they enjoy modern communications technology (shrinking the OODA loop of their social-political debate), but weeks or even years is going to be optimistic.

Glenn Reynolds likes to say that democracy is a process, not an event; and that civil society is a set of skills which must be learned. Both of those statements apply to being a melting pot too, and both the Africans and the Europeans have a lot of learning to do and process to go through before it starts getting better.

One of Europe's biggest hurdles though, one which still confronts us here in America, is the political conclusion that not all cultures are created equal and that how you raise your kids will be the single greatest determinant of how succesful they are in life. If European-Americans can't bring themselves to condemn the destructive elements of black culture here in the USA, what are the odds European-Europeans will be able to do the same? I expect that in the next week or so multiculturalism will come head to head with strategies for practical integration, and that the multi-cultists will win hands down.

11/07/2005 04:56:00 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...


I realized after your reply in the last thread that we're pretty much on the same page in most respects; just using different words.

I don't think that a new nation is being formed though, at least not in the sense that I understand the word. Two nations cannot exist in the same geography. For me, Nation = Police Power, which requires a monopolistic control of force over a contiguous geography. You can't have two nations (white and black) whose borders look like a chessboard.

Rather, I would say that a new Idea of France is being offered. Considering how rotten the old one was (see also, Villipen), this doesn't have to be a bad thing. The Gauls and the Carthaginians are going to have to reach a compromise as to what the new Idea of France will be in the very near future; either that or one side will face destruction by the other. Considerng that the Carthagininians completely lack the power to destroy the Gauls, we know how that would end (call it Punic IV). I don't think the French have the stomach to commit genocide, and the French blacks probably don't have a death wish, so I think both sides will seek to compromise rather than test who blinks first.

11/07/2005 05:08:00 PM  
Blogger John Aristides said...

I am not sure where it came from, but as I was sitting here looking at the Car-B-Q graph, I got the feeling that I was in the rear car of a very high roller-coaster, right before the peak, when you feel the pull of gravity on the front cars as they begin their descent. That moment before the plunge, pressed into your seat, the wind picking up as you are slung over the top. And I thought of the anti-violence protesters, and their demands for dialogue when they should demand retribution, and how these separatists will gain what they seek while the walls close in around the decadent, unproductive, and unreproductive cynizens of France. It may not happen this year, it may not happen next year, but The Descent has started.

Whether the descent will lead to mere war, or lead to ruination, is the great question of our time. But like it or not, judgment is at hand for the West, and many of us have already pleaded guilty.

11/07/2005 05:09:00 PM  
Blogger wretchardthecat said...


In my previous I argued from Zeckhauser that profilings and crackdowns only make sense when the information derived is captured and valued. In other words profiling only make sense if you intend to separate the sheep from the goats; reward the law-abiding and punish the malefactor.

If de Villepin takes the slums back from the perps then honesty will have been rewarded. But if he cedes them to 'councils' he will have abandoned his allies to the enemy. A la Algeria, a la Vietnam. Who will stand by you when you are always ready to sell them out?

Most of the Car-B-Qs have been of poor people's cars. The ones in the slums. Why? Because intimidation need only be directed against your base. If you can keep control of your base you don't have to defeat the enemy forces. In Vietnam, Algeria, Iraq, Gaza, Belfast -- it's the enforcer who is the key to victory. The Idea of France must first of all be the idea that those loyal to France will receive her protection no matter what.

11/07/2005 05:15:00 PM  
Blogger Andy Schaefers said...

Dare we trust the collective wisdom of the French stock exchange? Up slightly this week, Eurodisney down 8% today. Perhaps this indicates a general optimism about the situation, while acknowledging the PR damage done to the tourism industry. Those with money in the game seem to be saying "the apocalypse is not now"

11/07/2005 05:17:00 PM  
Blogger wretchardthecat said...


The weather is turning cold and rainy. See

This plus the crackdown gives some ground for thinking that they've dodged the bullet for now.

11/07/2005 05:21:00 PM  
Blogger blert said...


Eurodisney is a major employer of Muslims.

Right now their operations are directly affected.

Further, Disney would seem to be an ideal Muslim cultural target.

What a short.

11/07/2005 05:27:00 PM  
Blogger ledger said...

The steep graph of Bar-B-Q'd cars is stunning. I am sure the French dithered as the riots took-off (par for the course). But, I have wondered about the extremely high number of cars torched and exactly who's car were being burned? Further, I have pondered if there could be a financial incentive for said cars to be burned - why burn a car when you can burn a building just a easily?

Could there be a little insurance fraud going on? Say some "youth" (or his friend) has negative equity in his 1.5 year old car which is insured (the car loan is higher than the resale value). Wouldn't that "youth" be tempted to facilitate the burning of the car to get out from the loan on said car? Or, the "youth" burns another's car for profit. Others have noted that these burned cars will have to be replace by new ones eventually - so would not that help the sagging French economy? It's simpler to build another car than a building.

[Rioters burn neighbor's car]

...rioters have also started using motorbikes and mobile phones to trace the movements of police riot squads, in tactics reminiscent of urban guerrilla movements. 'Each night we turn this place into Baghdad', says one masked youth in Sevran near Paris... these riots seem to be more aimed at the television cameras than the National Assembly. 'It would be better to go into Paris than break up everything here,' his friend says, appearing to consider that the victims of the rioting are predominantly their own neighbours and friends. 'Why did they set my car on fire, why mine?' asks one young man as he watches it go up in flames. He knows the perpetrators, he says. They're neighbours of his, but he refuses to name them.

See:We make this Place like Baghdad

Next, it looks like French car insurers will have to pay the tab.


...As for the damage to property, French insurers are getting used to compensating the owners of burnt-out cars; torching them has become a favourite recreation of the nation's yobs. Expect higher premiums next year, mes amis.

You Shouldn't Have to Burn Cars to Get a Better Life

[French 'High Authority of the War on Discrimination and Equality' is former CEO of Renault] minister Dominique de Villepin announced Monday on TF1 that he wanted to give a proper sanctioning power to the high authority of the war on discrimination and for equality (HALDE). This organization, created by the law of 31 December 2005 and signed by President Chirac on June 23, does not currently have sanctioning authority. However, it authorizes seizure and subpoena of documents. Its purpose is to aid victims of discrimination for racism, religious intolerance, sexism, homophobia, or physical disability. HALDE's president is Mr. Louis Schweitzer, former CEO of Renault.

See Nick's translation of Le Monde

[Captain Ed thinks there is coordination with outside Islamic extremists]

...alert CQ reader Mr. Michael points out that both American and French media sources warned of coordinated Islamist action against France in the weeks before the riot. Agence France Presse even had a quote from the maligned Nicolas Sarkozy noting the imminent nature of the threat in its 9/27/05 dispatch. That prelude certainly seems more than a mere coincidence to me. Within six weeks of the GSPC announcement, we see a massive and coordinated uprising originating from the ghettoes in which Algerian and other Muslim refugees and their families live. The "riots' have sophisticated coordination between cell leaders, using the Internet and instant messaging as well as cell phones -- an odd tool for a spontaneous demonstration where one neighborhood would hardly have those phone numbers at the ready.

CQ: French Riots Come After Multiple Warnings Of Islamist Attacks

...French police investigating plans by a group of Islamic extremists to attack targets in Paris discovered last month that the group was recruiting French citizens to train in the Middle East and return home to carry out terrorist attacks, sources familiar with the investigation said.

One French official said the extremists were using a virtual "underground railroad" through Syria to spirit European and Middle Eastern citizens into and out of Iraq... What's new, he said, is that the French cell under investigation "is linked with networks in Iraq, right now, through an individual based in Syria. Now we're finding camps in Syria and Lebanon, and it's the same pattern, training in explosives and chemical weapons, which is an obsession of the jihadists."

France Says Extremists Are Enlisting Its Citizens

11/07/2005 05:32:00 PM  
Blogger moderationist said...

They may just be running out of cars to BQ.

11/07/2005 05:57:00 PM  
Blogger Boghie said...

Could we be in the ramp up of a terrorism swarm attack???

The attackers do not need to be hardened terrorists to aid that cause - only marginally attached. They do not necessarilly need to follow the same ideology - only one similar enough to accept leadership from the big boys...

Note Australia, Holland, Germany, NYT...

Alternatively, if this is controlled by the big boys than we could also be looking at either the equivalent of the Doolittle Raid or the Battle of the Bulge. Very different. The Doolittle Raid showed tenacity and toughness, the Battle of the Bulge was a last ditch strike...

We need to know if there is a tie in. Can the French help out?

11/07/2005 05:59:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

It is just the rate of increase that has slowed, which is not much of a success for the French Nationalists.

Ledger's last link is most informative. The word that continues to jump out, at least at me, SYRIA.

Police Union calls for Military, Mr de Villipen says "Not yet".

11/07/2005 06:03:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

The closer analogy is, I think, to Dolittle's Raid. This is just the beginning of the conflict. We are not anywhere near the end. This is not a last gasp, more like the first yelp of a new born pup.
Just imagine an assualt on Iran and the blow back that could generate. It could make this little B-B-Car seem like a picnic.

11/07/2005 06:11:00 PM  
Blogger Boghie said...

Desert Rat,

We have been swarming militant Islam for four years now. I think their networks are more damaged than much of our media presents.

Thus, I am not convinced that we are looking at a rising threat.

I think it more likely that the biggest threat we face in this conflict is against the conflicted liberal left - who will want to quit before total victory is attained. That will allow this menace to reemerge. If the Libs force a draw down than we will face a smarter, more organized, and potentially larger adversary in a few years.

The events in France and Australia and Berlin and Holland tell us that this dog can bite hard...

11/07/2005 06:24:00 PM  
Blogger sam said...

Rioting Spreads To 300 Communities:

The first fatality was identified as 61-year-old Jean-Jacques Le Chenadec. He was trying to extinguish a trash can fire Friday at his housing project in the northeastern Paris suburb of Stains when an attacker caught him by surprise and beat him into a coma, police said.

"They have to stop this stupidity," his widow, Nicole, told Associated Press Television News of the rioting. "It's going nowhere."

Rioting Spreads

11/07/2005 06:55:00 PM  
Blogger gdude said...

Doesn't anyone get the feeling that beating back the Muslims is the easy part? Much harder is going to be disabusing Westerners of the notion that liberal democracy is in itself sufficient for the continued existence of our society. We're tearing it down from the inside faster than the Muslims can from the outside.

The ironies abound that its the nationalistic but liberal French, the founders of the Revolution, who should be the first in Europe to suffer the convergence of Islam (where all murder is killing) and the Western Elites (where all killing is murder.) As Wretchard says, the Idea of France must first of all be the idea that those loyal to France will receive her protection no matter what. Does She have the sense to act on that? Does any nation in the West?

11/07/2005 07:13:00 PM  
Blogger ledger said...

Rat notes: ...The closer analogy is, I think, to Dolittle's Raid.

I agree on that. At this point, it a retaliatory or probing type of operation. There does seem to be some state sponsored influence (Syria jumps out and of course Iran). Now, in a hard-core riots, buildings burn, phone lines destroyed, and people are killed (In the LA riots, the phones were dead - you could not call 911 if you wanted to).

Further, Hard-core Riots tend to send the financial markets down. The French markets were not disrupted enough to indicated true pain to France as a whole (now, it's possible that the French have propped up the markets).

Hence, it looks a test run type of operation on the part of militant Islam. And, it's been somewhat successful. If you carefully read Nick's translation of the de Villepin statement in Le Monde (see above link), he is basically willing to pay ransom to stop the rioting. But, he has yet to relinquish political/legal control to the Islamic rioters. I will note that promises of financial aid come cheap but difficult to follow through.

I fear de Villepin will give away just enough money & political capital to stop the riots - but the Radical Islamic wing will not be satisfied. They will strike harder at a later date for complete control of their enclaves. I hope the French will be better prepared.

Btw, I notice that the Australians have rolled up a large terror cell today (that got to be good news for us and bad news for the terrorists).

11/07/2005 07:27:00 PM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

We have been swarming militant Islam for four years now. I think their networks are more damaged than much of our media presents.

...Hence, it looks a test run type of operation on the part of militant Islam. And, it's been somewhat successful.

Al-Queda has exchanged the unskilled cannon fodder of dumb Saudi jihadists in Iraq for a new swarm of unskilled cannon fodder in France. So far, the French jihadists have been playing little cat & mouse games with the gendarme and acting tough because it was fun. And quite easy to follow those instructions and gratifyingly successful.

But once it escalates, and a few of punks are killed, will IED bomb-making commence to replace the molotov cocktail bomb-making?

I think the observers who say that the rioters are not religious are probably accurate in the same way that none of the brave mujahadeen we've seen in Iraq massacre-ing their fellow Muslims are religious -- just fanatic. And stupid. And manipulable.

I will be very surprised if this does not escalate from teenaged rioters and BBQ'd cars to suicide bombing and indiscriminate explosions. After all, how many times have we been told they have nothing to live for in France?

11/07/2005 07:55:00 PM  
Blogger Boghie said...

Uuummm Cedarford...

I don't care for open borders and libby immigration policies, but...

As for the concerns about the markers of progress, I think one can look at Midway, El Alamein, Stalingrad, etc. and note that we did not win World War II after the battles of Midway, El Alamein, or Stalingrad. We actually lost some battles after 1942/43. In fact we lost more men after D-Day then before D-Day. However, those markers were markers of turning points.

The enemy also has its problems. For militant Sunni Islamists the only true sanctuary left is Syria - and like Saudi Arabia and Shia Muslims and Egypt and Morocco and Russia and America and Spain and France and Germany and Indonesia and Pakistan our adversaries have declared war on Syria. Were are the state sponsored sanctuaries of al-Qaeda. For militant Shia Islamists there is really only one hidey hole - Iran...

Nazi Germany was stupid to pick a fight on two fronts...

Radical Islam seems determined to fight everywhere all the time...

11/07/2005 08:04:00 PM  
Blogger Engineer-Poet said...

It would be relatively easy for French citizens to counter-attack their attackers.  Mobs are easy prey for shotguns.  Small groups of arsonists in cars or on scooters could be taken out with hardware-store materials:  steel cable raised across the street will injure or kill a scooter-driver, and a box-full of roofing nails tossed into the road will take out a car.  These groups can't have very much cannon fodder, which is a weakness to be exploited.  If the arsonists had only a .75 chance of getting away from such an act, the phenomenon would peter out fairly quickly.

More to the point, the death of arsonists at the hands of their intended victims would even more quickly destroy the image of weakness in the minds of the rioters.

11/07/2005 08:35:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Update from Tim Blair .com:
* Senator Barnaby Joyce:
“These people were, obviously, from what we’ve heard in the news, well advanced in a plan to attack one of the train stations in Melbourne or Sydney.

“If they had been successful in that, everybody would have been asking the question ‘why didn’t we stop them?’. Well, they have been stopped.”

UPDATE. Reaction from leftoid bloggers:
Larvatus Prodeo: nothing “I think it’s too early to say just yet what this all means.”
John Quiggin: nothing
Gary Sauer-Thompson: nothing
Daily Flute: nothing
Anonymous Lefty: “Look! A shiny penny!”
Troppo Armadillo: nothing
William Burroughs’ Baboon: nothing
Antony Loewenstein: “America and its allies, including Australia, are about to suffer a horrendous case of ‘blowback.’”
Andrew West: “What we appear to have is a situation where police and ASIO, acting on sound information, using beefed up operational powers, have observed all the rules of law. Habeas corpus remains intact.”

11/07/2005 08:54:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

nahncee says,
"But once it escalates, and a few of punks are killed, will IED bomb-making commence to replace the molotov cocktail bomb-making?"
Heard or read somewhere that they already do have heavier weapons ready - when will they pull the trigger?

11/07/2005 08:58:00 PM  
Blogger Sparks fly said...

Islam must have its teeth pulled to become part of a one-world government; that's what you are seeing now. They don't like it. Would you?

The world doesn't have a clue what's coming. Although emotionally they sense it. It's just around the corner. It is moving like a glacier. At the water's edge you occasionally see a big piece of ice crash into the sea. Cars burning by the thousand in the middle of France but most of the activity by weight and volume is unnoticed.

For born-again Christians who know their Bibles there is beginning to be a quiet excitement. We recognize the season.

11/07/2005 09:13:00 PM  
Blogger wretchardthecat said...

ABC News is reporting that Car-B-Qs on the 12th night are down to 841, though so too were arrests. However, two schools and a hospital were attacked, as were a bus.

"Nationwide vandals burned 814 cars overnight compared to 1,400 vehicles a night earlier, according to national police figures. A total of 143 people were arrested down from 395 the night before."

11/07/2005 09:21:00 PM  
Blogger THE said...

In that case, it may just be that the government's low-key approach of arresting and detaining arsonists is slowly getting the upper hand.

It would be interesting to compare that chart to a chart of the number of arrests per day.

11/07/2005 09:41:00 PM  
Blogger Charles said...

Sparks fly said...
Islam must have its teeth pulled to become part of a one-world government; that's what you are seeing now. They don't like it. Would you?

What's not generally recognized here in the USA is that Bush's frantic squeezing of Turkey into the EU is part of a quid pro quo. Recently, Bush said it would be "catastrophic" if the Turks weren't allowed into the EU. Why "catastrophic"? Turkey doesn't need the EU. The EU doesn't need Turkey.

The reason that Bush used the term "castastrophic" is because the internationalist agenda -- to which Bush subscribes -- calls for quid pro quo in which Europe takes in Turkey and the USA takes in Mexico. Each block would be in the process of creating large superstates.

First there would be a north american superstate and then there would be a new world superstate. But these would only be stepping stones to a one world government.

Bush has just been down to south america where he was trying to sell a new world common market. He didn't succeed.

But Bush is well on the way to collapsing the USA into a superstate that incorporates Mexico. The illegals coming over the border are the front line troops for this effort.

There will be an immense bill for this undertaking. American tax payers will be on the hook for the bill.

Its one incredibly bad deal for Americans. There is absolutely no upside to it for Americans.

11/07/2005 09:56:00 PM  
Blogger demosophist said...


The implication of a sigmoid, or "S-curve" is that a feedback system has reached its natural limit--although "natural' in this instance may be the imposed limits of the surrounding society. It could also be the organizational limits of the "youths," or the depletion of a target-rich environment. Or any combination.

The function, however, has three roots (so it's a trifurcation), and the achievement of a saturation level on one feedback system could involve a bridge to the next escalation (as you observe with the graduation to other targets of opportunity).

Ultimately the macro-function could be a kind of stair-step escalation, from one opportunity to the next, if it isn't fundamentally starved. Time is also incidental, so if the intervention is superficial it might create a respite without impacting the overall course of the function.

Translation: There's a real danger, even if this turns out to be a "slow burn," of a Serajevo-type process. Again, ignore time. Simply delaying the process won't actually change anything, in the ultimate sense. We'll just be a little older when the organite hits the fan.

11/07/2005 10:04:00 PM  
Blogger wretchardthecat said...


I completely agree that France is not out of the woods yet. It has bought time. What it does with that time is the question.

11/07/2005 10:16:00 PM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

rufus, does the term "useful idiot" ring any bells? stock market bells, or otherwise?

11/07/2005 10:22:00 PM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

dan dare It would be interesting to compare that chart to a chart of the number of arrests per day.

It would also be useful to compare how many of those arrested 5 or 6 days ago are still in jail.

11/07/2005 10:24:00 PM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

Charles ... right... you betcha. Read any good Zionist world hegemony theories lately?

11/07/2005 10:26:00 PM  
Blogger THE said...

NahnCee said...

It would also be useful to compare how many of those arrested 5 or 6 days ago are still in jail.

My understanding is that many European countries have considerable wiggle-room as far as detention of suspects is concerned. It would be crazy to release trouble-makers while the riots were still continuing (but who knows?).

11/07/2005 10:47:00 PM  
Blogger M. Simon said...

I have read reports that 20 cars a night has been normal for the past none months.

This is an escallation in pattern not a new one.

Still, quantity can make quality.

Sarkozy's desire for a crackdown may have stemmed from the 20 a night metric.

11/08/2005 12:00:00 AM  
Blogger wretchardthecat said...

No Pasaran reports that the night's losses aren't as encouraging as earlier reported.

"1,173 vehicles were torched, 330 arrests were made, and 12 police were injured. As reported this weekend, buckshot fired from hunting rifles is being used against riot police."

Apprently the "youths" were not intimidated by Villepin's warnings and still brought it on. Two courses are possible from here on. First, there could be a battle of attrition in which the cops eventually wear the rioters down. Second, the "youths" could adapt to the curfew and police methods by switching tactics. The most likely is adaptation is the one shown by insurgents in Iraq. They'll move away from numerous, low value Car-B-Q attacks to relatively fewer by higher value attacks.

11/08/2005 01:36:00 AM  
Blogger ledger said...

NanhCee notes: So far, the French jihadists have been playing little cat & mouse games with the gendarme... But once it escalates, and a few of punks are killed, will IED bomb-making commence to replace the molotov cocktail bomb-making?

That's the $64,000 question. One would guess 'yes' eventually. But, the crack down of bombs and other weapons in France be have played a roll in these "youthful" riots (a chicken and egg case). It's know that 2 SA-18 missiles were smuggled in to France to down Aircraft at certain airports. I would not be surprised if those missiles were fired at aircraft in retaliation to the police crack down on rioters. Further, I my pervious post French authorities believe that some these "youths" were train in bombs and fire arm in Syria. It's known that Syria is not our friend and has a acquired SA-18 missiles in the form of antiaircraft batteries. It would not take much to retrofit a few of those missiles back to the should-fired configuration and ship them to Europe. Someone like RWE could probably gives us and update on the SA-18 and the ability to use them in a the shoulder-fired configuration.

Doug brings up the terror cell busted in Sydney and Melbourne (I assume Wretchard is up on this story).

Doug said: Update from Tim Blair .com: * Senator: Barnaby Joyce: "These people were, obviously, from what we've heard in the news, well advanced in a plan to attack one of the train stations in Melbourne or Sydney.

I would guess that the terrorists were preparing TATP style bombs to attacks the train stations in Australia.

[Terror suspect starts a gun battle with police out side of mosque]

A TERROR suspect being followed in Sydney opened fire on police officers today... dramatic clash in a suburban street followed a series of raids in Sydney and Melbourne in which 16 other suspects were charged, and which police say foiled a major terrorist attack.

Witnesses said they saw the man, carrying a backpack, draw a handgun and fire at least two shots at uniformed police officers who had confronted him... The man fired twice, with one bullet grazing an officer's hand before a colleague fired back, it was alleged. "One of the police officers returned fire and the person of interest to police was wounded in the neck," Mr Morgan said.... a bomb squad robot found a second gun in the man's backpack...

Police defend mosque shooting

[Roll up of terror cell and explosive materials]

AUSTRALIAN security agencies appear to have averted a major terrorist attack on home soil with a series of dramatic raids on a suspected terrorist network this morning. Government and police officials said today some of the group had been stockpiling chemicals to make an explosive device... terrorists appeared in court today. Among them was Adbul Nacer Benbrika, the radical Islamic cleric also known as Abu Bakr.

A court in Melbourne heard Benbrika was the co-ordinator and spiritual leader of the group... seven held in Sydney were today charged with conspiring to manufacture explosives in preparation for a terrorist act.
The seven were named in court as Mohamed Ali Elomar, 40, of Bankstown, Khaled Sharrouf, 24, of Wiley Park, Moustafa Cheikho, 28, of Wiley Park, Khaled Cheikho, 32, of Wiley Park, Mazen Touma, 25, of Bankstown, Abdul Rhakib Hasan and Mirsad Mulahalilovic.

Police seized documentation and computer hard drives from the targeted addresses in several Sydney suburbs... It has been claimed the group may have been plotting a terrorist spectacular on the scale of the al-Qaeda attacks on London and Madrid
NSW Police Commissioner Ken Moroney said the group's plans, if successful, would have been "catastrophic"... police had more than 240 hours of phone intercepts in which the group discussed plans to kill Australian civilians... Some of the group had attended military training, and they had a pooled fund of money to finance alleged plots... [cleric] Benbrika was the co-ordinator and spiritual leader of the group, prosecutor Richard Maidment QC said

Raids 'thwarted major attack'

[More on the OBL loving cleric]

...ONE of the nine men arrested in anti-terrorism raids across Melbourne overnight was the outspoken Melbourne Muslim cleric Abu Bakr, his lawyer said today. Mr Stary replied: "Yes" when asked by ABC radio if one of the men arrested was Abu Bakr.
Abu Bakr, also known as Abdul Nacer Benbrika, made headlines in August when he stated publicly his support for al-Qaeda leader Osama Bin Laden

Bakr defended Muslims fighting against coalition forces in Iraq and Afghanistan and said anyone who fought in the name of Allah would be forgiven their sins."There are two laws, there is Australian law, there is Islamic law," Bakr said. On other religions, he said: "I am not only against the Jew. I am against anyone who try to harm my religion."

Muslim cleric 'among raid arrests'

11/08/2005 01:40:00 AM  
Blogger DaveScot said...

Is anyone else imagining GW chuckling about this and thinking of Chirac "It couldn't have happened to a nicer guy".

As long as no one is getting killed it's some damn funny stuff IMO.

Hey, anyone want to buy a French Army rifle? It's never been fired and only dropped one time.

It's a good thing the rioters are so disorganized. If they get the bright idea to appoint a leader and send him to Chirac with a demand that France surrender to them we'll have yet another Islamic theocracy to deal with after Chirac, in the grand French tradition, surrenders immediately.

11/08/2005 02:12:00 AM  
Blogger Kevin said...

France only has 9000 gendarmes to try to enforce curfews tonight and of course it will be a spectacular failure. The military will need to be called in. If they are smart, the military units will ignore the rioters and instead jump deep behind enemy lines – a la Sharon in Egypt in 1973 – and arrest as much of the criminal hierarchy as possible in specific cités. The criminal leaders in other banlieues will call off the riots in an attempt to avoid military intervention in their areas. The military units will need to occupy these zones for a year or two, during which time they must engage in “cité building”, which would include upgrading buildings and landscaping, transfer of ownership to residence who behave themselves. Intensive improvements to the education services and job placement / creation will be needed. The ultimate goal should be to improve these areas enough so that average French people will want to live there, in other words a type of gentrification will need to happen in order to break up the concentration of people living in difficulty.

11/08/2005 02:56:00 AM  
Blogger RWE said...

I think that if Chirac should have to step down he should run for mayor of New Orleans.
Interesting to ponder places that have French backgrounds. New Orleans, Hati, Ruwanda, Vietnam, ... France.
As for another place, Quebec, I am told one of the favorite phrases there is "We don't give a d*mn how you do it in France."

11/08/2005 03:56:00 AM  
Blogger M. Simon said...

The other not new pattern is political wrangling and indecision in the face of attacks.

May 1940.

11/08/2005 05:05:00 AM  
Blogger M. Simon said...

I have read that the French Army is 15% Muslim.

i.e. the reason they have not been used is that they may be unreliable.

11/08/2005 06:23:00 AM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

Heather, do you *really* think it would be good policy for America to annex a country with however many million uneducated unemployed people who don't speak English? That is heavily dependent upon drug trafficking, where we would know going in that most of the officials are corrupt and criminal, and has either no infrastructure of roads and electricity or a crumbling one?

I mean, that's what we're doing in Iraq, and at least it's over there, whereas Mexico is right here on our doorstep where things could get nasty.

What would we get out of the deal besides having to spend a gajillion dollars to bring the Mexicans into the 20th Century, let alone into the 21st?

11/08/2005 06:57:00 AM  
Blogger Charles said...

NahnCee said...
Charles ... right... you betcha. Read any good Zionist world hegemony theories lately?

10:26 PM
an earlier poster did mention that the reason for Stalin's Doctor's Plot (by which stalin planned the extermination of Jews in the early 50's) was because of his opposition to the Baruch Plan for one World Government (The plan had too many Jewish signatures.)

But that was long ago.

I didn't describe a scenario that you wouldn't have heard described by Clinton State Dept types like Strobe Talbot.

Here is the transcript of lou Dobbs on the current US border situation.

Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 8:36 pm Post subject:


"Americans must think that our political and academic elites have gone utterly mad at a time when three-and-a-half years, approaching four years after September 11, we still don't have border security. And this group of elites is talking about not defending our borders, finally, but rather creating new ones. It's astonishing." - Lou Dobbs, CNN June 10, 2005


DOBBS: Border security is arguably the critical issue in this country's fight against radical Islamist terrorism. But our borders remain porous. So porous that three million illegal aliens entered this country last year, nearly all of them from Mexico.

Now, incredibly, a panel sponsored by the Council on Foreign Relations wants the United States to focus not on the defense of our own borders, but rather create what effectively would be a common border that includes Mexico and Canada.

Christine Romans has the report.


CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On Capitol Hill, testimony calling for Americans to start thinking like citizens of North America and treat the U.S., Mexico and Canada like one big country.

ROBERT PASTOR, IND. TASK FORCE ON NORTH AMERICA: The best way to secure the United States today is not at our two borders with Mexico and Canada, but at the borders of North America as a whole.

ROMANS: That's the view in a report called "Building a North American Community." It envisions a common border around the U.S., Mexico and Canada in just five years, a border pass for residents of the three countries, and a freer flow of goods and people.

Task force member Robert Pastor.

PASTOR: What we hope to accomplish by 2010 is a common external tariff which will mean that goods can move easily across the border. We want a common security perimeter around all of North America, so as to ease the travel of people within North America.

ROMANS: Buried in 49 pages of recommendations from the task force, the brief mention, "We must maintain respect for each other's sovereignty." But security experts say folding Mexico and Canada into the U.S. is a grave breach of that sovereignty.

FRANK GAFFNEY, CENTER FOR SECURITY POLICY: That's what would happen if anybody serious were to embrace this strategy for homogenizing the United States and its sovereignty with the very different systems existing today in Canada and Mexico.

ROMANS: Especially considering Mexico's problems with drug trafficking, human smuggling and poverty. Critics say the country is just too far behind the U.S. and Canada to be included in a so-called common community. But the task force wants military and law enforcement cooperation between all three countries.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Indeed, an exchange of personnel that bring Canadians and Mexicans into the Department of Homeland Security.

ROMANS: And it wants temporary migrant worker programs expanded with full mobility of labor between the three countries in the next five years.


ROMANS: The idea here is to make North America more like the European Union. Yet, just this week, voters in two major countries in the European Union voted against upgrading -- updating the European constitution. So clearly, this is not the best week to be trying to sell that idea.

DOBBS: Americans must think that our political and academic elites have gone utterly mad at a time when three-and-a-half years, approaching four years after September 11, we still don't have border security. And this group of elites is talking about not defending our borders, finally, but rather creating new ones. It's astonishing.

ROMANS: The theory here is that we are stronger together, three countries in one, rather than alone.

DOBBS: Well, it's a -- it's a mind-boggling concept. Christine Romans, thank you, as always.

There is no greater example than our next story as to why the United States must maintain its border security with Mexico, and importantly, secure that border absolutely. The police chief of the violent Mexican border town, Nuevo Laredo, was today executed. It was his first day on the job.

Alejandro Dominguez, seen here at his swearing-in ceremony, was ambushed by a number of gunmen several hours just after that ceremony as he left his office. The assassins fired more than three dozen rounds that struck Dominguez.

He was the only person who volunteered to become Nuevo Laredo's police chief. The position has been vacant for weeks after the previous chief of police resigned. The town is at the center of what is a violent war between Mexican drug lords. The State Department has issued two travel warnings for Americans about that area just this year. And amazingly, the Mexican government calls those State Department warnings unnecessary.

Still ahead, the military recruiting crisis is escalating. New questions tonight about the viability of the all-volunteer military. General David Grange is our guest.

And "Living Dangerously," our special report. Rising population growth in the West, dangerous water shortages, the worst drought arguably ever. We'll have that report for you next.

full transcript:


11/08/2005 07:23:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

One thing that could occur with an annexing a swath of northern Mexico, the infiltration of 6,000 Mexican Natinals into the US would cease.
One obvious difference between the problems US face in Iraq and the potenial challenges in northern Mexico, that could lead to a higher potential level of success. There are MANY people in the US that speak Spanish quite fluently, even more that speak it adequately and a multitude that speak it poorly. There are over 10 million illegal Mexican aliens in the US, many left Mexico because of the corruption in, and lack of opportunity available in Mexico to poor Mexicans. Annexation could change that status que.
The dangers of allowing Mexico to fester are MUCH greater to US than Saddam ever was, or could have been. A different type of danger, to be sure, but one of much greater impact here, in the US, than all the Mohammedans in North America combined.
This is not to say I would favor such n Annexation policy, I do not, but there is a rational case for it.

11/08/2005 07:28:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

As an example of the level of danger the illegal immigration represents, I remind you that there are over 4,000 felony murder warrants outstanding for illegal entry Mexican Nationals in the US. Most of these suspected murderers have fled back to Mexico.
Mexico will not extraditie in cases that could result in Capital Punishment to the defendent.
The 4,000 outstanding warrants, more death & terror delivered to US by foreigniers then 9-11, does not reflect those Illegal Aliens that were apprehended by Police. Only the ones that got away.

This type of statistic does not even begin to assess the economic damage to the US that is wrought by the illegals, on both a short and long term basis.

11/08/2005 07:43:00 AM  
Blogger DaveScot said...

Professor Bill Dembski (the intelligent design guy that wrote all the books) at referenced an article on the French riots by Wretchard.

I chimed in with my thoughts on Islam in a civilized world (it's a pox that turns the infected into misogynist pigs at best and should be treated like one treats a cancer) and this set off one Doctor Gary Hurd, on the liberal apologist website Panda's Thumb.

Doctor Hurd's anti-american ranting included equating the beheadings perpetrated by Al Qaida in Iraq with capital punishment in the United States and stating that the only difference is perhaps Al Qaida has better cameras.

I'm banned from posting on Panda's Thumb but y'all aren't and would appreciate it if you all went and told American Doctor Gary Hurd what you all think of his rhetoric.

Thanks in advance. Here's the link to his article:

and here's the link to his comment equating American capital punishment (which is not even an accurate recount of what happened in 1936) with Al Qaida beheadings:

Hurry as he'll probably close the thread to further comments when he realizes how badly he screwed up by letting a bit of his true feelings about the United States shine through.


11/08/2005 07:46:00 AM  
Blogger DaveScot said...

The vast majority of Mexican illegals crossing the border into Texas are hard workers who desire nothing more than an honest day's pay for an honest day's work which is something they can't get in Mexico. They'll work their asses off for 8 hours at backbreaking labor for $50 cash and lunch which works out to less than $7 per hour. Using them to pour concrete and dig ditches is what allows me to pay my white American boat mechanic $75 per hour to work on my boat. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

Nueva Laredo and its problems with drug turf wars isn't an example of the rule. It's an exception to the rule. And it's not as if there aren't drug turf wars in other American cities that are far removed from Mexico or illegal aliens for crying out loud.

Drug problems, by the way, are created by *American* consumer demand. Distributors don't create the market, they service it. But that's a different subject.

Bush knows all this just like most Texans know all this. Our history and culture in Texas is intimately entwined with Mexican culture and the Mexican people. Mexicans were living in Texas long before anglos took it away from them by force. There are millions of their descendants still living here, most of them happily embracing American values. There are more hispanic military veterans here in Texas than you can shake a stick at. They love America as much as anyone else. Mexico is not our enemy. There are nations and cultures in the world that hate us and want to see us die - Mexico ain't one of them - worry about Iran and North Korea instead.

11/08/2005 08:16:00 AM  
Blogger DaveScot said...

desert rat

"I remind you that there are over 4,000 felony murder warrants outstanding for illegal entry Mexican Nationals in the US."

I'd love to see the source data for that claim. Sounds like urban legend to me.

11/08/2005 08:28:00 AM  
Blogger DaveScot said...

And by the way, lets not forget the 9/11 perps came through the border with Canada. They didn't sneak in through Mexico. Maybe we should reposition our xenophobic vigilante squad 1500 miles to the north. I can't think of anything of value that crosses into America from Canada except nationalized health care refugees desiring to become customers in our superior free-market health care system so let's just shut that border down.

11/08/2005 08:36:00 AM  
Blogger John Aristides said...

Ending the drug war would be a giant step forward in our domestic and foreign policy. There must come a point when policy initiatives are revisited, measured for success, and finally thrown out if they have been unmitigated failures. The War on Drugs is such a failure.

By any metric, this pseudo-war has been a disaster (except in the feel-good, I'm-a-politician-and-I'm-on-a-soapbox metric). Drug use has not declined, drug crime has not declined, drug supply has not declined, and drug potency has not declined. This after unprecedented effort by the government over a span of several decades. A substantial amount of our prison population were incarcerated because of drug possession or sale. The removal of drugs from the white market has caused an immense growth in the black, which leads to gangs and turf-wars and terrorist groups like the ELN and FARC.

One of the first uses of the Patriot Act was by the DEA. In an age of global terrorism, can we afford to expend such manpower and assets trying to keep citizens from deciding what to put into their own bodies?

I think we must really think about this issue, because the only argument for the drug war is a moral one. All the utilitarian arguments have been invalidated by facts. Its supporters say that a society that allows drug use is a rotten society. This is an interesting formulation since, while we don't currently allow drug use, we have quite a bit of it, and since it is illegal, instead of worrying just about use we must also worry about gangs, crime, murder, terrorism, and dysfunctional states. I'd rather have a society with legal access, where the private sector can control use through drug tests for jobs, than a society with all the other problems listed above that, despite such heavy-handed laws, still has drug use.

Not that it's likely to end anytime soon. Any politician that puts forward such an agenda would be labeled "pro-drug", instead of pro-order and pro-freedom and pro-personal-responsibility. It's too bad. The crimewave that spawned from Prohibition is revisited in spades by the ill-advised war on drugs.

11/08/2005 09:02:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...


That is a pleasure. There are a multitude of sources

AZ State Representative Russell Pearce says it here: What Part of Illegal Do They Not Understand?, about a third of the way down, amongst the other statistical data.

Heather MacDonald writes in the City Journal The Illegal-Alien Crime Wave
" ... In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens. ..."

The Washington Times quotes Rep Tom Tancredo, Colorado Republican.
" ... "There are over 4,000 murder warrants out, just in the border states, for people who've committed murder and fled to Mexico. You wonder how many more people have to die." Alien flees after cop dies

Also you should beware. All felons should.
While you are tooling about in your pleasure craft, remember you are a Criminal, a Federal Felon. Guilty of Crimes under
Section 8 USC 1324(a)(1)(A)(iv)(b)(iii)
"Any person who . . . encourages or induces an illegal alien to . . . reside . . . knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such . . . residence is . . . in violation of law, shall be punished as provided . . . for each illegal alien in respect to whom such a violation occurs . . . fined under title 18 . . . imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both."
"An employer has constructive knowledge that an employee is an illegal unauthorized worker if a reasonable person would infer it from the facts. Constructive knowledge constituting a violation of federal law has been found where (1) the I-9 employment eligibility form has not been properly completed, including supporting documentation, (2) the employer has learned from other individuals, media reports, or any source of information available to the employer that the alien is unauthorized to work, or (3) the employer acts with reckless disregard for the legal consequences of permitting a third party to provide or introduce an illegal alien into the employer's work force. Knowledge cannot be inferred solely on the basis of an individual's accent or foreign appearance.

Actual specific knowledge is not required. For example, a newspaper article stating that ballrooms depend on an illegal alien work force of dance hostesses was held by the courts to be a reasonable ground for suspicion that unlawful conduct had occurred. ..."

Your posting here is enough to convict you.

" ... Any person who within any 12-month period hires ten or more individuals with actual knowledge that they are illegal aliens or unauthorized workers is guilty of felony harboring. It is also a felony to encourage or induce an alien to come to or reside in the U.S. knowing or recklessly disregarding the fact that the alien's entry or residence is in violation of the law. This crime applies to any person, rather than just employers of illegal aliens. Courts have ruled that "encouraging" includes counseling illegal aliens to continue working in the U.S. ..."
Excerpts from US Code

Best of Luck in your continued criminal behaviour, G. Gordon Liddy says the food is not to bad at the Federal Pen.

11/08/2005 09:11:00 AM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

Kevin said, "....The military units will need to occupy these zones for a year or two, during which time they must engage in “cité building”, which would include upgrading buildings and landscaping, transfer of ownership to residence who behave themselves."

So just exactly how bad would they have to be and what crimes would they have to commit before they're not rewarded with home ownership and landscaping?

Which is more or less my complaint about taking over and annexing Mexico, too -- we're going to reward them with American citizenship and all the benefits of the biggest economy and most stable government in the world because they've been thumbing their noses at our laws for decades now, in addition to availing themselves of free education, free health care, free everything at the expense of the American taxpayer while paying NO taxes in return to support themselves (except for whatever paltry sales tax there might be on their beer and tamales).

In both cases, this just doesn't seem right.

11/08/2005 09:14:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Then there are upcoming changes to Immigration Policy
Under the proposed "Bonner Plan" one new aspect of Federal Law would be
"...Increasing penalties for employers who hire illegal immigrants or fail to verify their employment eligibility by increasing fines to $50,000, applying jail sentences of up to 5 years per occurrence, and requiring the employer to pay for the alien's deportation ..."

May have to sell your pleasure craft and do a little hardlabor, yourself.
My suggestion, hire legal workers, pay a competitive wage, live a legal life.
Sell the boat if you have to, better to live modestly but legally, than living large through Criminal Enterprise.

11/08/2005 09:24:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

They would not have to become American citizens, nahncee. Any more than Filipinos or Cubans did, after US acquired each of those countries from Spain.
The natives could maintain the own, Mexican, citizenship, while we change the legal and economic system of the annexed area.
If successful the reforms could migrate south, instead of the people migrating north.

11/08/2005 09:29:00 AM  
Blogger Fellow Peacekeeper said...

As demosophist points out that day 11 inflection point might well mark depletion of the original target set (easily available cars), tonight we will see whether the attacks against harder targets (buildings) increases.

More important as a metric : will the violence against persons increase? To be honest, 12 nights of riots with *merely* 2 dead is rather restrained by the standards of riots elsewhere...

11/08/2005 09:38:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

Mexicans were living in Texas long before anglos took it away from them by force.

actually true, but before there were "mexicans" there were those pesky anglos from spain that destroyed the indian cultures that lived there...

so really, since 30% of native americans now can be proven to have dna from Norway whose land is it anyway?

If according to the world, jews have no rights to the west bank or jerusalem, then really what is a "mexican" or an "american" are they not fake bogus constructs? If fake peoples can construct new "ID's" (the palestinians) they why should "americans" not be able to claim as much of "america" they can control, steward and exploit?

11/08/2005 10:12:00 AM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

Mexicans were living in Texas long before anglos took it away from them by force.

And if we had NOT taken it away from them by force, is there any doubt whatsoever that the area between the Rio Grande and Canada would still be a 3rd world banana republic?

The Mexicans have not worked to build America, nor have they done anything to help us, so why should they benefit, en masse, now from what we have accomplished?

Actually, though, in a way, I agree with Heather and have had the same thought: we'll just go through the world colonizing the trouble spots and making them states. If they agree to quit shooting each other, learn English, and live by our laws, they can become American states, with all the support that entails. I had thought about the different African countries, but I suppose Mexico would be a good first test case.

Not France, though, because they're so enamored with their 35-hour work week.

11/08/2005 11:18:00 AM  
Blogger Solomon2 said...

It's horrible, but I agree 80% with Cedarford! In civil war, it is very difficult to judge folks individually, especially when the offenders don't wear uniforms and make every effort to blend into the crowd.

No, you can only take action against entire populations. Ship 'em off just like he described. It has worked before.

The 20% disagreement? I think democracies are strong enough to do this, if their leaders are brave enough to try. And if they aren't, new leaders should step forward, and prod the old ones into it, or be willing to do the dirty work themselves.

11/08/2005 11:19:00 AM  
Blogger boxingalcibiades said...

Nahncee ought to learn a little Texas history: the Mexican parallel is *completely* irrelevant.
Previous thoughts on that score:

There are a number of reasons why said "humble proposal" is infeasible... but there is no question but that Mexicans integrate astonishingly well.
Now, as to whether this is Doolittle or the Bulge (an important question!), I would say that it depends on the extent to which Sarkozy is able to come out on top. This is happening, after all, because S. is threatning the bad boys' last remaining solid turf. Wipe that out and restore french law in the cite's, and "Eurabia" is toast. So one can make a very credible argument for "the Bulge," in which case one has some cause for optimism.

11/08/2005 01:54:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

the US has been expansionist for the length of it's history. The LA Purchase, Mexican Annexation, Russian Purchase, Hawaiian Coup, Indian Wars.
Why would we let a rich and fabulous country, like Mexico, rot on the vine? That is in no way in the best interest of US.
I have not checked out russ's reference, but I agree that there are more than a few difficulties in the Annexation project.
There are other ways to moderate Mexican behaviour, through their own economic self interest seems a viable option.
9-11 did not help in that regard, nor the overall problem.

US Law should come to grips with reality. It is a worthy debate.

11/08/2005 02:20:00 PM  
Blogger Karridine said...

Just to bracket several days' worth of excellent analysis and commentary, I call to our attention the DIRE possibilities should Chirac actually surrender, for he (his people in the govt) holds the keys to nukes AND some powerful, accurate delivery-systems.

IF France were to surrender, America would step forward and swiftly, violently NEUTER what used to be a nuclear nation, rather than have those WMD fall into the bigoted, racist and anti-Semite hands of Islamazoid thugs!

Decisive. Make a Decision!

11/09/2005 05:58:00 PM  

Post a Comment

<< Home

Powered by Blogger