Colonel Tomb
On the tenth of May, 1972 Lieutenant Randy Cunningham and his RIO, LT(JG) Willie Driscoll, flying a Phantom F-4J, ShowTime 100, would shoot down two MIGs, making them the first American aces of the Vietnam War. Then they would shoot down a third. This account from Ace Pilots:
They were participating in a strike against the Hai Dong railyards, on flak suppression, when a score of enemy fighters challenged them. ... After dropping their bombs on some warehouses, Showtime 100 loitered to cover the A-7 fighter-bombers still engaged. Responding to a call for help, Cunningham took his F-4J into a group of MiG-17s ("Frescoes"), two of which promptly jumped them. Heeding a "break" warning from Grant in Showtime 113, Cunningham broke sharply and the lead pursuing MiG-17 overshot him. He instantly reversed his turn, putting the MiG dead ahead; he loosed a Sidewinder and it destroyed the MiG.
... VF-96 Exec, Cdr Dwight Timm had three MiGs on his tail, one being very close, in Timm's blind spot. ... After more maneuvering, Cunningham re-engaged the MiG-17 still threatening his XO. He called again for him to break, adding, "If you don't break NOW you are going to die." The XO finally accelerated and broke hard right. The MiG couldn't follow Showtime 112's high speed turn, leaving "Duke" clear to fire.
Calling "Fox Two," Cunningham fired his second Sidewinder while the MiG still inside the minimum firing range. But the high speed of the Fresco worked against it, as the Sidewinder had time to arm and track to its target. It homed into the tail pipe of the MiG-17 and exploded. Seconds later, Cunningham and Driscoll, finding themselves alone in a sky full of bandits, disengaged and headed for the Constellation.As they approached the coast at 10,000 feet, Cunningham spotted another MiG-17 heading straight for them. ... The MiG's nose lit up like a Roman candle! ... In an effort to out-climb the MiG, Cunningham went to afterburners, which put him above the enemy aircraft. As he started to pull over the top, the MiG began shooting. This was Cunningham's second near-fatal mistake; he had given his opponent a predictable flight path, and he had taken advantage of it. Duke rolled off to the other side, and the MiG closed in behind.
Not wanting to admit he was getting beaten, he called to Willie, "That S.O.B. is really lucky! All right, we'll get this guy now!" With the MiG at his four o'clock, he nosed down to pick up speed and energy. Cunningham watched until the MiG pilot likewise committed his nose down. "Gotcha!" he thought, as he pulled up into the MiG, rolled over the top, got behind it. While too close to fire a missile, the maneuver placed Duke in an advantageous position.
He pulled down, holding top rudder, to press for a shot, and the MiG pulled up into him, shooting! He thought, "Maybe this guy isn�t just lucky after all!" The Communist pilot used the same maneuver Duke had just tried, pulling up into him, and forcing an overshoot. The two jets were in a classic rolling scissors. As his nose committed, Duke pulled up into his opponent again.
As they slowed to 200 knots, the MiG's superior maneuverability at low speed would gave him more advantage. A good fighter pilot, like Kenny Rogers' poker player, "knows when to hold, and knows when to fold." This was the MiG's game; it was time to go. When the MiG raised his nose for the next climb, Cunningham lit his afterburners and, at 600 knots airspeed, quickly got two miles away from the MiG, out of his ATOL missile range. ... Cunningham nosed up 60 degrees, the MiG stayed right with him. Just as before, they went into another vertical rolling scissors.
... Driscoll strained to keep sight of the MiG, as Duke pitched back towards him for the third time.
Once again, he met the MiG-17 head-on, this time with an offset so he couldn't fire his guns. As he pulled up vertically he could again see his determined adversary a few yards away. Still gambling, Cunningham tried one more thing. He yanked the throttles back to idle and popped the speed brakes, in a desperate attempt to drop behind the MiG. But, in doing so, he had thrown away the Phantom's advantage, its superior climbing ability. And if he stalled out ...
The MiG shot out in front of Cunningham for the first time, the Phantom's nose was 60 degrees above the horizon with airspeed down to 150 knots. He had to go to full burner to hold his position. The surprised enemy pilot attempted to roll up on his back above him. Using only rudder to avoid stalling the F-4, he rolled to the MiG's blind side. He tried to reverse his roll, but as his wings banked sharply, he briefly stalled the aircraft and his nose fell through. Behind the MiG, but still too close for a shot. "This is no place to be with a MiG-17," he thought, "at 150 knots... this slow, he can take it right away from you."
Now the MiG tried to disengage; he pitched over the top and started straight down. Cunningham pulled hard over, followed, and maneuvered to obtain a firing position. With the distracting heat of the ground, Cunningham wasn't sure that a Sidewinder would home in on the MiG, but he called "Fox Two," and squeezed one off. The missile came off the rail and flew right at the MiG. He saw little flashes off the MiG, and thought he had missed. As he started to fire his last Sidewinder, there was an abrupt burst of flame. Black smoke erupted from the Fresco. It didn't seem to go out of control; the fighter just kept slanting down, smashing into the ground at about 45 degrees angle.
Just who the third pilot Cunningham shot down that day is the subject of dispute. Some say it was "the top Vietnamese ace known as 'Col. Tomb' in the media" other said it was "a flight leader or squadron commander of the 923rd Regiment".
On November 29, 2005 Congressman Randy Cunningham pled guilty to receiving $2.4 million in bribes from military contractors and evading more than $1M in taxes, according to the Los Angeles Times.
"I broke the law, concealed my conduct and disgraced my high office," Cunningham, 63, said outside the federal courthouse. "I know I will forfeit my freedom, my reputation [and] my high office." Cunningham left without answering questions.
AE Houseman, (thanks for a reader for pointing out the name error) in his poem To An Athlete Dying Young wrote about the human need to keep youthful triumph safe from the corruption of time.
Now you will not swell the rout
Of lads that wore their honours out,
Runners whom renown outran
And the name died before the man.
Commentary
They were two different days, separated by 32 years. The grandfather paradox argues that the past exists independently of the present, that it remains graven in the mind of God, beyond our power to alter -- or to besmirch. Whatever Randy Cunningham did in later life, it remains true that on the tenth of May, 1972 ShowTime 100 would shoot down two MIGs, then a third. ...
posted by wretchardthecat at 11/29/2005 03:15:00 AM
65 Comments:
great post! moving and tragic.
If the past is immuntable, it's only because no one controls the present. (Thinking more 1984 than 'Back to the Future')
In other worlds the Ace pilot would never become one of the Nation's leaders, because those spots are reserved for a clan or political elite. Perhaps once they become the Leader they simultaneously become the Ace, because they pronounce it is and always was so.
In that different world the bribes would have been taken, and it would have been business as usual. Just the cost of doing business when dealing with the government, right Mr. Sevan?
But this is America. This is the country where a fighter Ace can become the a nation's leader, and a nation's leader must still answer to a judge.
I weep not.
Leaders are constantly under attack. The ones at the top are most vulnerable. No one to hold them accountable but the relentless devil himself.
Heard about Duke from Jed Babbin, but have not read a bit about it yet.
Cunningham not only had a storied past, but was right on every issue I was aware of.
Very Sad.
---
Not surprised he would plead and tell the truth:
How is it that so many lying Dem sleazebags seem to evade justice by way of continuing on a lifetime of evading the truth?
(Could there be a serious political imbalance in the "Halls of Justice?")
---
Last I heard, Congress was well on it's way to sealing up the Clintonista Sleaze Cisneros' case so that we the people will never know the truth.
Time marches on, and I guess I will eventually find out details about Duke's downfall.
"I learned in Vietnam that the true measure of a man is how he responds to adversity," Cunningham said.
"I cannot undo what I have done, but I can atone."
We should rejoice anytime a career politician holding the Public trust is held accountable for criminal conduct and leaves office in disgrace and is jailed like the common thug he or she is. That a decorated warrior cries like a damn baby when caught is disgusting to say the least. I was filled with revulsion when I saw him blubbering.
Cunningham's achievement on 10 May 72 is all the more remarkable when you consider that he was flying what could only be called the wrong airplane.
The F-4 was designed as a single seat aircraft armed with 20MM guns. When missiles seemed to be the ultimate answer to air combat they yanked the guns out, put a radar operator behind the pilot - and stuck two air conditoning systems where the guns had been (probably the weirdest systems arrangement of any aircraft).
"Duke" would have been far better off with the guns back and without the second crew member.
But you go to war with what you have, even if it is far from optimum.
Prior to WWII a certain New York Congressman was a paid agent of the USSR - and got off scot free, without having to ever admit his treason.
Like the airplane he flew in combat, Cunningham was operating in an environment that he was not designed for.
As always, a great thought provoking post. Thank you.
How about the fact he ADMITTED his guilt, no excuses, just his guilt. How many times have people had excuses? Yes he took money, bribes, peddled influence. But unlike so many, he is accepting his guilt, coming clean, making restitiution, loosing his job, aiding the government in helping the case, serving time...
yes he was caught red handed, yes he really had no choice since he was caught, but in this world he DID have a choice, he could have hired million dollar lawyers and been just like the oil for food guys, or 9/10ths of the convicted felons that walk around distorting reality...
yeah man wretchard good post.
lawyers guns and money.
Duke handled his guns well.
A very sad story about a true-blue idol with clay feet. This story of the battle w/ Col. Tomb has been told many times, and I think this was before we instituted Red Flag to get back to the kill ratios we had in earlier wars.
Cunningham is going down hard, like it seems Republicans do when caught. Compare this to the Clinton/Gore "fund raising investigations" that led to dozens of guilty pleas, record fines from everyone from Lippo to Loral, and some of the most amazing excuses I've ever heard. Remember when the VP's office Lotus Mail Server was supposedly destroyed by someone using the wrong tape? !!! Many who read this blog have IT backgrounds, and know that a business critical Lotus Notes system would be backed up to a fare-thee-well and could never be accidentally wiped as described in the cover story.
Somehow, people that the Clintons and Gore knew for over a decade were all implicated, plead guilty, paid fines, fled the country, etc. - but somehow the principals in the story were completely untouched. Yeh, sher.
Duke Cunningham lived to die another day, but at least he admitted his guilt and will take his punishment. So sad is human frailty, especially among the fiercest among us.
32 years from now I look forward to reading stories of the heroism and bravado displayed by our elected representatives who served in Iraq and Afganistan. Surely by then there will be a cure for corruption...?
Meanwhile, Sandy Berger walks out with classified documents from the National Security Council pertaining to terrorism under the Clinton adminhistratoin stuffed in his socks, is caught, confesses ... and he pleads guilty to a misdeamnor, nothing else is done, and he's bopping around a free and jovial man today.
I guess if you're a Democrat in charge of preventing bad guys from actually KILLING people it's not as big a deal as a Republican war hero who took bribe money.
The grandfather paradox, for any that care, would be defeated if the theory of the multiverse was accurate.
Every space-time unitary value, potential or otherwise, has its own inviolable coordinate. These coordinates are pre-arranged like tiny bells, to be rung or bypassed as individual narratives proceed forward in time.
Causation rings many of these bells, chance rings some, choice rings others. But whether they are rung in this world or another, they exist eternally and forever as coordinates of possibility.
Going back and killing your grandfather presupposes the admixture of two independent narratives. If it were possible to jump from one narrative to the next, to go from 2005 to 1945, on closer inspection you would see not a jump backwards, but an entirely new narrative, one that was always there, always possible--and finally realized.
Before I'd pass judgement on Mr Cunningham's life, taken for the full measure of the man that he is and was.
What were the bribes for?
Military hardware?
Was it shoddy or second rate equipment?
Overpriced?
Late for shipment?
What do you sell for 2.4 million?
What did it buy?
How many US troops may have died because of Cunningham's corruption, if any?
What was the true nature of his criminal behaviour?
What was the REAL cost to Society?
Good thing he got 'Col. Tomb' when he did, at least for Mr Willie Driscoll's sake.
I'm very curious why everyone is praising Cunningham for admitting his guilt and avoiding a trial.
pork rinds for allah said...
How about the fact he ADMITTED his guilt, no excuses, just his guilt. How many times have people had excuses?
His is admission is not honorable. At most he is making the best of a bad situation. If he were not caught and cornered he would have continued on his crimminal path.
Duke's past heroics, and they are amazing, are irrevocably damaged by his actions.
As for Cunningham, he has succeeded in supplying his name with an irremovable asterisk. Better for him if it qualifies his heroism. Most likely it will follow his corruption.
Sad.
jrod,
Sadly, no, although I take it that you're asking the question rhetorically. Life's lessons must be felt to be believed, and all must learn them, independently. Some of us are better students than others, and no curriculum can overcome hubris.
What's really tough is that we know several of our current young heroes will stumble later in life.
Desert,
Looks like a lot of Cunningham's transgressions centered around getting business for MZM: http://www.publicintegrity.org/wow/bio.aspx?act=pro&ddlC=40
Look what they do: classified engineering, supplying translators to Iraq, they recently opened a 70-man classified sub-contractor facility to IMC in WV, which Sen. Byrd "helped."
Sounds a lot like the kinds of operations Rep. Murtha built in Johnstown and W. Pa.
In this kind of business, there's no way of knowing if the work was shoddy or worth what we paid.
The fact that others do the same doesn't make it any less criminal. (Not saying Murtha has done anything wrong! Byrd I won't defend.) The fact that he took a plea and is cooperating is the best we can say. We can't demand honesty and integrity from the other side if we don't demand the same from our side.
Nancy Pelosi already grandstanding and trying to smear all Republicans in Congress with this. I suppose she imagines we all forget the $700K in "consulting fees" that Webb Hubbell got from folks like Lippo - after he was convicted, and for which he did nothing visible.
All of this pales compared to moving controlled technology from State to Commerce, and then having Hughes and Loral "accidentally" give away our secrets to the PRC.
Like I said, if one of our guys is guilty, so be it, let him pay the price. I just regret that Ken Starr focused on Whitewater and Monica, instead of the major damages inflicted on the US in Chinagate.
I'm only referencing comparable crimes here, what Sandy Berger and the former administration did regarding Al Qaeda is in a far more serious class, also ignored, forgotten and denied by Dems today.
I’m in Cunningham’s district in San Diego. He had attained something of here status here. I know people who are close to him. It’s just a damned shame.
San Diego is a little big town, or a small town that thinks it’s all grown up. Back in the 80’s there was a great exultation of corporate governance and its’ efficiencies compared to public government. The notion was promulgated that if government was run like a business then certainly that government would become more efficient. But in the rubric of social spending it also stands that a more efficient government can do more with less.
Enter the notion of profit. In the 90’s San Diego passed a number of local measures, they were passed to pay for repairing pot holes, street lights, and to buy pencils for impoverished children, but to date, not a penny of these self imposed taxes have been spent for their intended purpose. Instead the revenues have made their way in the general fund, where they have been invested into speculative mutual funds and the like. San Diego government has all the drawbacks of a bureaucratic institutions’ and all of the greed and mismanagement of a strip club. The new mayor is going to piss of a lot of unions to balance the budget. He is an ex San Diego Sheriff and is beholden only to the emergency services. This is, after all, governments only true charter.
Forget the SoCal environment, this band of elected bandits have become complacent because there hasn’t been a hangin’ in San Diego for a long time. Sooner or later the people with pitch forks and torches will have to stand up.
here i sez
HERO!
Crimony
Jet jockeys have to be pretty cocky and a little reckless in order to be good at what they do.
He may have felt that his achievements entitled him to more than his retirement.
Or he may have thought he could get away with it because he was Duke Cunningham.
Or maybe the people who gave him all these gifts flattered him into thinking they were gifts from admirers, not businesses seeking a quid pro quo.
Whatever the reason, he's a tragic hero in the Aristotelian sense. He was riding high, until his fatal flaw, hubris, led him to his downfall.
He's a golden boy and a felon. I wonder if there will be a Top Gun II.
Thank you Wretchard,
He is, and was a good man. He was my Congressman...
He did not make a mistake, he committed a crime.
He did the adult thing and will begin paying the price for his actions. I can think of many others that are not the man he is...
The think I like about conservatives is the fact that there will be friends backing him to the level proper, but we accept that the choice to commit the crime was his and his alone. He stands alone in atonement - but not alone in life.
He was one of those almost mythical figures in military aviation, and his exploits were looked on with great admiration. But, unfortunately, I can't say that this surprises me, when this is done by any politician. I also have a hard time giving him credit for his "admission"; there were questions about house and boat deals several months ago, which (in retrospect) was obviously the early stages of this process. And he didn't admit to anything then. I also had wondered in the past why he did not make it past the rank of Commander. But what a great pilot!!
In case anyone is wondering, "Showtime" would have been the generic call sign for the planes in his squadron, and the "100" or "112" would have been the side number of a specific aircraft in that squadron.
Great posts!
I thought he was a friend of Hal Lindsey the author and preacher. A crime like this is writ large in the scriptures. He must have drifted far from the simple clear Word. This may be a great opportunity for him to become reacquainted with the One with whom we all have to do.
He actually seemed to be out of his element in Washington.
Yet he did get "Colonel Tomb". He got him for you and me and we have benefitted mightily.
I have tears in my eyes.
Later.
Mr. Cunningham's life thus ends in disgrace - we are very curious about the backstory behind these crimes. Was Mr. Cunningham really interested in all of this opulence, or is there another explanation?
Something else to consider is that he may be the last American human "ace" - the next American ace will very likely be a robot.
In our post
Disgrace opens up a chance for cleansing
we further dicuss the Cunningham scandal.
We assert that the story is far from over. This will likely create a crisis at the Pentagon over procurement corruption. The Bush administration would be well advised to get on the offensive over this broader issue, even if it means that some of their allies will fall.
Westhawk
Desert Rat: That is a good point. Much is made over procurement bribe scandals but I am unaware of a single case where such misconduct resulted in the the U.S. taxpayer paying a dime more for the product or servce.
Now - Congressional pork, absurd requirements, ridiculous grand schemes, small and disadvantaged business set-asides, grants and contracts for unneeded items, endless studies - those cost the taxpayer billions and billions every year - and also frequently damage our defense capability. And they are legal.
Bribes are illegal, and correctly so - but usually that is all there is to it.
C4 states....
sjiofdsdn dfn;kasd nas[fdk jaldj sdlksdf
yep there's a zionist/jew hiding behind all the problems...
mr "jew"
Jake Abramoff.....
C4, once again can find the hidden zog agenda in everything..
congrats...
Just for comic relief:
The Phantom was a 30 ton tractor trailer, or oil tanker, chasing the Fresco, a 7 ton truck, only they were sharply compact shapes, like a ray and a shark.
The Phantom could climb at 50k feet per minute, causing itself to build up huge kinetic energy, that the Mig at a fraction of its weight would never achieve. Like David's stone in his sling, Duke's F-4 was the big clumsy lug in this fight.
Like the sharks and rays, these pilots had wings and tails, that they threw against the relentless sea of compressibility. When Cunningham's plane stalled, for even a second, it was 30 ton tanker truck ready to tumble into gravity's grasp.
The fact that he took this crazy chance with the re-born Red Baron on his tail tells you all you need to need to know about a fighter pilot.
. . .
the end of the story sounds like the missile burrowed into Tomb's tail, but the warhead didn't explode. Nice shot, just like a gun.
(I'm hoping Exhelo, RWE and all others jump in and correct and improve this retelling.)
I hate to be picky but the MiG story is missing some things that cause it to lack continuity. Minor details though. Duke was a great fighter pilot.
The F-4 tended to depart controlled flight at high angles of attack when any aileron was added. Thus the nose drop and often a roll reversal. Quick action would recover and prevent entering into a spin. But is was very distracting during fighting conditions. He was lucky to be higher than the MiG when he departed. His recovery seemed to put him into a firing position pretty handily.
A vertical rolling scissors is not a desired manuver for the F-4 either. The quick loss of airspeed makes maneuvering very difficult. Once the nose has to fall through the horizon, it becomes very difficult to regain a nose high position again without regaining airspeed in a nose low condition. You become very predictable without much airspeed to maneuver. Not a good position to be in. Basically Duke was in a situation where it was going to be either him or the MiG that did not come home that day. His skill proved out.
Adversity can create opportunity. I wish Duke luck in the rehab of his flawed character. Fighter pilots are type A personalities, and they tend to take charge of their surroundings.
Pork,
Thanks, I missed that one skimming over the trash er, post.
Goes to show we can help each other if we carry on with antennas extended and speakers employed.
Expose the agenda in sjiofdsdn dfn;kasd nas[fdk jaldj sdlksdf
sammy's description reminds me of some of Yeager's exploits and mishaps in 104's beyond the envelope.
Maybe he or tony or rwe could enlighten us on those.
The F-4 was an amazing airplane.
I had completely forgotten what little I once knew about it's predecessor which was a complete dog.
Was reminded when looking it up on the net after meeting a pilot here that had flown it.
Ex commercial pilot, he wasn't really all that interested in aircraft.
Nonchalantly answered that he had made about 300 carrier landings! I was so focused on his answers that I forgot to ask what if any combat experience he might have had but did not consider mentioning.
Fine and necessary for Bush to deplore Duke's transgressions.
Disgusting and disheartening that he does not do the same with ALL the corruption, given that so much the Dems activities was much more destructive in terms of aiding our enemies.
The fact that he did not clean out his left wing justice department and CIA at the outset is sad, and a dereliction of duty.
Why did he not condemn Congress for sealing up the Cisneros investigation after 10's of millions of our dollars were expended checking out that corrupt group of individuals? I know, new tone and all that.
Bottom line is both he and most of the GOP elite in DC, as well as some posters here, are aware of the MSM price to be paid, and how much smoother sailing can be if we just pretend not to see what is so clearly evident from Clinton/Gore/China, to Berglar/Gorelick/Clinton/WOT, and scores of others conveniently swept into the dustbin of "history."
My request of such posters here is to consider the present state of play:
We can be SURE the MSM will do their due diligence rooting out Right Wingers as they did with Duke.
Doesn't it behoove US to try to balance things by putting a little more focus on the left's transgressions?
(NOT at the same time lying and denying about our side. That's a specialty of the Democrats.)
Folks like AJ Strata, right wing radio and others are doing a great job, I wish we all would take responsibility for adding some balance to the exposure of the "Culture of Greed and Corruption." tm.
To always remain above the fray while condemning our own will only result in a more corrupt situation by empowering the left.
The most widespread corruption/ripoff overall is mentioned in annoy mouse's post:
Before finishing his sentence, I "knew" it would end in "General Fund."
Here on Maui, one example is that the Maui Police Dept keeps ZERO dollars of the fines received for their work.
...Off to Honolulu to the "General Fund," to be properly skimmed and disposed of.
Same for our centralized "Education" system here: It all ends up in Honolulu.
But the greatest ripoff by far that I am aware of is the stealing of Billions in Social Security Taxes, which through some shoddy sleight of hand ends up in the GENERAL FUND.
The Piper will be paid.
U.S. Paying Iraqi Papers to Run Favorable Stories.
Secret effort to disseminate propaganda in the Iraqi media comes as U.S. officials are vowing to promote democratic principles.
Dem/MSM censorship of all positive stories while focusing on negative is "NEWS."
Favorable stories are PROPAGANDA.
"While the articles are basically truthful, they present only one side of events and omit information that might reflect poorly on the U.S. or Iraqi governments, officials said. Records and interviews indicate that the U.S. has paid Iraqi newspapers to run dozens of such articles -- with headlines such as "Iraqis Insist on Living Despite Terrorism" -- since the effort began this year."
The F-4 was, arguably, the all-time greatest military aircraft, when you consider the length of time in service, the varied missions it flew, and the great success it had.
It sucks when you get caught! This wasn't a single error in judgement, he did this over many years. Millions of dollars...come on! He did seem upset at his press conference, but I would have been more impressed if he had turned himself in, rather letting the wheels of justice "run him over."
I have to echo desert rat's thinking:
Before I'd pass judgement on Mr Cunningham's life, taken for the full measure of the man that he is and was.
What were the bribes for?
Military hardware?
How many US troops may have died because of Cunningham's corruption, if any?
What was the true nature of his criminal behaviour?
What was the REAL cost to Society?
I do remember see a PBS special on the Navy "Top Gun" training school which is really named Miramar Naval Air Base in San Diego, California (in my back yard). The show told about Duke Cunningham's dog fight with "Col. Tomb" or "Col. Toon." The historians believed that it was the longest jet dog fight in history. Cunningham thought he shot down the best North Vietnamese Ace at that time. But, it now appears that "Col. Toon" was probably a composite of one or more pilots with the same handle - and maybe a Russian pilot - at that.
'Colonel Toon'
The pilot was mis-identified as North Vietnam's leading ace, "Colonel Toon," allegedly with 13 aerial victories.
Exactly whom "Duke" shot down on his final kill of the day, the one that made him an ace, has been the subject of conjecture. Early on, sources claimed the pilot was the top Vietnamese ace known as "Col. Tomb" in the media. Later research has shed more light on the subject; in fact, "Col. Tomb" did not exist. He was most likely a flight leader or squadron commander of the 923rd Regiment. Whoever the Vietnamese pilot was, the historic dogfight made "Duke" Cunningham the first US ace of the Vietnam conflict.
See: Flying Aces
[No such NV Ace]
...Cunningham and the power of his trusty F-4J prevailed and the MiG dived away to make a fundamental error of opening the range and presenting his tail. The American made the most of the opportunity. He curved after the enemy plane, placed the gunsight pipper over it and squeezed the trigger. The Sidewinder detonated beside the tail of the MiG, which didn't blew up, but simply flew into the ground. For many years, stories were explained around, about Lt. Cunningham shooting down the greatest Vietnamese „ace", „Col. Tumb" or „Toon". Yet, during his visit to Vietnam, Dr. Toperczer couldn't find any records about a man with this name. Actually, there were very few pilots in the SRVAF, and they knew each other very well from the training and from joint service. Yet, nobody remembered any „Col. Toon" or „Tomb" (the name „Tomb" doesn't even exists in the Vietnamese language) , and in 1972 there was not a single flying pilot in the SRVAF with the rank of Colonel. Also, if the SRVAF would have an ace with 13 kills to his credit, the Northvietnamese propaganda would certainly have used him.
See: acig
[more research shows he was probably a composite]
*From: "Robert S. Hopkins, III" ...from H-War Subject: REPLY: Foreigners in North Vietnam Author's Subject: REPLY: Foreigners in North Vietnam Date Written: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 12:35:00 -0600 Date Posted: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 09:15:00 -0600 The question of foreign pilots flying MiGs for the Vietnamese Peoples' Air Force (VPAF) is still a mystery. On 10 May 1972, U.S. Navy pilot and RSO Randy Cunningham and Willie Driscoll downed three MiG-17s, making them the war's first aces (they had two previous "kills"). The final victory was over what "Duke" Cunningham told me was one of the best pilots against whom he had ever flown. The pilot of this final "kill" was reportedly a "Colonel Tomb" (also "Toon"), the VPAF leading ace with 13 "kills." When Cunningham, first in his capacity as an instructor at VF-126 (one of the U.S. Navy Adversary units) and later as a member of the U.S. House of Representatives, tried to get copies of audio tapes made of the radio transmissions between the pilot of the last MiG he and Driscoll shot down and the Vietnamese ground controllers, Cunningham was (and still has been) denied access to them as "too sensitive, and he lacked a 'need to know'." In my own research on this issue (published in the late _Journal of Military Aviation_, I address the *possibility* that the pilot was not Vietnamese and was perhaps Russian. If so, this would have been especially sensitive, considering it meant that U.S. and Soviet pilots were in direct combat with one another, regardless of the nationality of the airplane. This is not unheard of, as Soviet pilots are now known to have flown in DRK MiG-15s during the Korean War. Jack Broughton, a retired F-105 pilot, relates in his book _Thud Ridge_ that on one occasion he saw a VPAF MiG-19 so close that he could visually discriminate the pilot, who, he said, had the blondest hair and the bluest eyes, suggesting someone other than an Asian. At least one source with whom I spoke suggested that the mysterious Colonel Tomb was a special radio identification given by U.S. Electronic Security Command eavesdroppers (who monitored VPAF air-to-ground and ground-to-air radio transmissions) to *any* non-Vietnamese pilot who was airborne. We know that the Soviets did send instructors to teach the VPAF pilots, especially when they acquired later variants of the MiG-21. It is not inconceivable that one or more of these instructors found themselves in combat. [A similar situation occurred over Egypt when Israeli F-4s and Mirage IIIs shot down five Egyptian MiG-21s piloted by Soviet instructors.] Perhaps other members of this discussion group can shed further light on foreign pilots flying with the VPAF. R*** S. Hopkins, III, Ph.D.
[and]
two email copied: *From: "Sherwood.J***" Sherwood.J***@***.navy to: H-War Subject: REPLY: North Vietnamese Fighter Aces Date Written: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 08:20:30 -0400 Date Posted: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 14:22:43 -0500 This is an unclassified list compiled by Rob Young of the National Air Intel Center History Office: Nguyen Van Coc 9 Luu Huy Chao 8 Mai Van Cuong 8 Pham Thanh Ngan 8 Nguyen Hong Nhi 8 Nguyen Van Bay 7 Vu Ngoc Dinh 6 Nguyen Ngoc Do 6 Dang Ngoc Ngu 6 Nguyen Duc Soat 6 I have another more definitive list compiled by Istvan Toperczer, a Hungarian Air Force officer and the author of the _Air war over North Vietnam: the Vietnamese People's Air Force: 1949-1975_. However, I need to consult with him before posting that list on H-War. Both Toperczer and Young vehemently deny the existance of Toon and have hard evidence to back up their claims. Anyone interested in this subject should consult Toperczer's book. I met with Toperczer two weeks ago in Budapest and learned that he is working on a more detailed follow-on work to be published in the near future. He also informed me that Osprey plans to reprint his first book. He's a very skilled researcher who has interviewed many of the top Vietnamese officers, and in my opinion has compiled the definitive statistics on this issue. John D****l Sherwood, Ph.D. Naval Historical Center...
See: Archives
I had read about the controversial existence of Col. Tomb and had always assumed he was some other senior NV pilot. The idea that he might have been an Eastern bloc pilot never occurred to me. There is however the suggestion by a certain Darrel Sherwood of the Naval Historical Center, who wrote a book called Afterburner, that "Colonel Tomb" was "a Major Ton with 10 kills".
Yes, I read Sherwood's reports and Ton maybe the one. I understood that Cunningham could actualy see the pilot during the dog fight. Hence, I would guess Cunningham who know what the pilot's race was. Which lead back to Ton or another Asian pilot.
More about the possible Major Ton.
Yes, it could have been Le THANH Dao. But, why could not Congressman Cunningham get the actual voice tapes from the US Military - unless they of very sensitive nature - like a Russian pilot speaking.
The argument that Cunningham's graft didn't have any effect on others just doesn't hold water.
The contractors that paid him surely make huge margins or they wouldn't be doing what they're doing. But the money still changes hands and it has to come from somewhere. As usual it is the average working stiff that pays the piper.
As a taxpayer I'm outraged. Whenever such an exercise is exposed, heads must roll. I hope the A.G. digs to the bottom of this and makes some examples.
As a patriot, I'm saddened by the circumstance of one who has put his life and extraordinary talents at risk for his country, a good man gone bad.
He must atone as he has already indicated.
An AIM-9 does not make such a big bang that you can be sure you will see it. The first Mig-21 the USAF shot down they hit it twice with Sidewinders because the did not realize that they had got it with the first one.
The Israelis noted this and produced their own version of the Sidewinder, with a warhead so large that the enemy jet went up in a fireball - and took the precious trained pilot with it.
I would have to consult my copy of Cunningham's book, but I believe the combat that day ended with Cunningham and his RO having to punch out after they got the third Mig.
As for the taxpayer taking the hit for the bribes - those profit margins that enable the bribes are carefully controlled and approved by DoD. The taxpayer would be out the same big bucks whether the companies payed the bribes or not.
Needless to say, "Bribed a Congressman" will not be considered as a legitimate expense by the auditors, so it comes out of other funds.
Had he "covered his six" better he would still be taking bribes. The problem is when politicians do something that requires "covering their six."
OT, but I think of interest to many here:
. Meaningless Hot Air Links "Xooglers" a site by two X Google Employees and also a nice Business week article.
If you are interested in the energy/hardware it takes to run the net, be sure to download the pdf at one of the links. (in comments? I forgot, will check.)
Disk Capacity is radically reducing energy needs.
The pdf shows that transporting net archive by boat to Sidney is faster than by cable!!!
bearstar says,
"Neither party, and I am an Independent, has a corner on self righteousness."
---
...but you think being an "independent" is better than being a dem or gop:
I think supporting the GOP (and outliers like Senator Liebermann) at a time when the Dems have largely lost all connection to a patriotic reality is superior.
...and Destructive Presidents like CARTER and Clinton are part of our history, as is the revisionism in real time practiced by the MSM, and many "moderates" and "independents."
Quiz,
What are the first 3 presidents with the most places and things named after them?
Make that the first 3 historical figures in our history.
rwe said:
"As for the taxpayer taking the hit for the bribes - those profit margins that enable the bribes are carefully controlled and approved by DoD. The taxpayer would be out the same big bucks whether the companies payed the bribes or not.
Needless to say, "Bribed a Congressman" will not be considered as a legitimate expense by the auditors, so it comes out of other funds."
rwe, get serious, whether the contractor calls it "contingency" or "overhead" or "bribe money" on his books, it's still part of his cost of doing business. If he wants to stay in business, his price will need to cover his cost, hence his contract price has to go up.
I would say that the "millions of dollars" that ended up in Mr. Cunningham's pocket is probably the tip of the iceberg of money that is earmarked for same by defense contractors and others if they expect to do business with our government.
Either way, it ends up costing US as taxpayers more to supply the DOD. Your justifications are part of the problem.
Obviously you've spent too many years on the side of big bureaucracy to have remebered Econ 101.
I understand what others are saying about the cost in lives and other national resources being far greater in value to what has happened here, as in a contemporary congessman from PA calling for immediate pullout of troops in Iraq, for whatever motivation.
Seems this debate on Bribery and etc, "Money in Politics" is no longer relevant:
That was all fixed by:
"Campaign Finance Reform"
Thank McCain and Feingold, President Bush, and the Supremes.
Cunningham did eject. He ran out of fuel.
That day was the culmination of many events starting with John Boyd's discovery of EM and the very poor kill ratio in Vietnam leading to the Navy opening the Fighter Weapons School.
The F4 has an advantage at low altitude over most other fighters due to the thick air which makes it wings and control surfaces very useful and the thick air can feed the engine allowing the F4 to gain and dump speed faster. Its interesting to note that Cunningham used rudder over aileron at the end of the engagement - he had to keep his nose up - Boyd taught the same thing at Nellis. Its also interesting to note that at the time of the engagement, Cunningham had very little fuel left making the F4 a rocket sled due to its very low weight.
Tomb gambled by engaging the F4. A fully fueled F4 could have departed the fight, reengaged, and departed if it did not get a good shot, and just circled and waited Tomb out.
Why Tomb was out over the water is a good question - was he trying to pick off damaged aircraft as they left the battle? Or did he come from somewhere else and was about the go into the fight?
Outside of this envelope of low altitude - the F4 is at a disadvantage from a pure EM perspective. However, the extra set of eyes and brain that the REO brings to the battle can more than compensate for this.
You can read about this in Wilcox's "Scream of Eagles"
As for whom Tomb was is known by some due to the communications intercepts that should still be around from those days. But this will probably stay classified.
enscout: Oh come now! Do you really think that if a contractor can charge the Govt, say, $25M for something, that he will charge only $23M just because he does not have to pay a bribe?
If he gets the contract and the charges are allowable and his bid is competitive, then he will charge it. Because he can. And because he can't charge so many other things.
If he can charge $25M and pocket the bribe money instead of paying it out he will do it.
Admittedly, he may have to charge $22M or less to get the contract if he does not have a friendly Congressman on his side - and that is the real problem for the taxpayer - and it is also very dependent on the situation.
Without the Congressman there might not be a contract at all for anyone. Which is probably how it should be in virtually all cases.
I am familiar with one case where Congressman Murtha told the USAF to buy something it did not need - and futhermore would scrap it when it received it - because he wanted to get some money to one of his constituants. And I only know that when I overheard it while dealing with another piece of pork for a certain Senator from AK.
Bearstar - great post.
I'm embarrassed to say I was the first to muddy this thread with "political" references. But my primary point was to COMPARE similar events, and the way the political parties and the MSM treat them.
Here's a neutralized version of my original observation:
Cunningham is going down hard, like it seems Republicans do when caught. Compare this to the Smith/Jones "fund raising investigations" that led to dozens of guilty pleas, record fines from everyone from Acme to Zippo, and some of the most amazing excuses I've ever heard.
rwe:
maybe I'm missing something here. Doesn't the gov't award contracts based on the competitive nature of bids? Doesn't the low bidder, if he meets the spec and delivery requirement get the award?
I imgine it's different for cutting edge stuff like fighter aircraft and such, but for the great majoity if DOD expenditures, it works like private sector.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
If that is the case, when I submit a bid for 200,000 cases of MRE's I have to calculate my costs, add my margins & let the bid fly.
If I've been around the game long enough to know that my competition has been giving bribes to senator x, well then I'd better be paying someone with equal clout a visit with my payola or my bid ends up under the table. Hence, my bribe money guarantees equal exposure.
But it also adds to my cost & therefore, unless I cut my margins, adds to my quoted price as well.
This all adds up to an inflationary spiral for cost of goods procured by DOD.
Tell me what I'm missing.
Kyda Sylvester,
That's true and so obviously true that is amazing that anyone forgets it. Our grandads and grandmas may have been hell-raisers at one time, or perhaps, saints at another, depending on how we remember them. I remember listening to a radio interview by Salman Rushdie who was asked why he titled his latest novel "Shalimar the Clown" and not just "Shalimar", since the character was tragic. Rushdie instantly replied, "because I want the reader to remember that his life began in sweetness".
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
For all you airplane nuts, here's a pic of the P-38 Lightning and the F-4. Maybe the Phantom's only competitor in the "multi-role" category.
Lightning and Phantom Formation
Mdub wrote:
"Cunningham's 5th kill is very revealing about the future Congressman's temperment. If you read between the lines what you see is an opportunist who was willing to go outside the lines a little to get his 5th kill.
Aerial warfare as practiced by the Navy and USAF in Vietnam was a TEAM sport.."
And some other innacuracies from somone who has never either known a naval aviator nor played any of the sims.
Cunningham was alone heading out to sea when he was engaged. He could either extend and leave the fight or engage. As a fighter piot his job is to Kill Migs. Period.
If there had been ten Migs, then he should have left. But one or Two? If he'd left the fight, he'd be shirking his duty. Cuningham did the right thing.
The battle itself is considered a masterpiece - the manuever fighter vs the energy fighter on the envelope between where the two planes have advantages and disadvantages. Cunningham used all the tricks he learned at Top Gun and put them to good effect.
As for how he got downed, it was a SAM.
http://www.acepilots.com/vietnam/cunningham.html
Dogfighting is a team effort, but if you are alone and get jumped, then you have to decide what to do. As a grad of Top Gun, Cunnigham should be able to best any pilot the enemy throws up in a one on one.
es real la existencia del coronel Tomb?
Furgonetas!!
its real history of coronel tomb?
Windsurf!!
Not to disparage any part of military service, but why should we be surprised by Cunningham's actions? Are not all of our servicemen taught to exploit every opportunity? to risk all, including life for the sake of the mission? to hesitate at nothing, not even at taking deliberately the life of another? Is it not even preferable for our military to create men with no conscience, except that of their superiors? Have we not seen over and over through our histories that the best of all soldiers, commanders, and conquerers are the very worst of men in civil life, and that rare is an exception to this?
No man, or woman, for that matter, is perfect. Great deeds, and terrible failure, seem inextricably linked at times. It takes great wisdom and great character not to fall into weakness. We must learn to act in accordance with our best nature.
YourWingman
-Sarah
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