Hamas -- No mas?
Steve Clemons at the Huffington Post has a list of the "great Americans" who are urging dialogue with Hamas. These individuals all signed a petition to Secretary Rice saying that:
As to Hamas, we believe that a genuine dialogue with the organization is far preferable to its isolation; it could be conducted, for example, by the UN and Quartet Middle East envoys. Promoting a cease-fire between Israel and Gaza would be a good starting point.
The signatories apparently include a whole bunch of names who readers will instantly recognize. They include persons associated with Obama (such as Zbigniew Brzezinski), Clinton and the former President Bush.
This list indicates the extent and depth of support for the policy of treating with Hamas. Thus, despite Barack Obama's criticism of Carter's decision to meet with them, saying, "We must not negotiate with a terrorist group intent on Israel's destruction. We should only sit down with Hamas if they renounce terrorism, recognize Israel's right to exist and abide by past agreements. Hamas is not a state. Hamas is a terrorist organization", I don't think a future approach will be totally excluded, whether Clinton, Obama or even John McCain are elected.
Israel Insider reports that Hamas rather fancies their chances with Obama.
Even though Obama has said that he would not meet with Hamas unless it renounces violence and recognizes Israel, or becomes the recognized leadership of the Palestinians -- he has no qualms about holding talks with the leadership of Iran, Syria, and North Korea -- that doesn't seem to bother the Hamas leadership.
"We like Mr. Obama, and we hope that he will win the elections," Ahmed Yousuf, Hamas' top political adviser in the Gaza Strip, said in an exclusive interview with World Net Daily and with the John Batchelor Show on WABC Radio in New York.
He saw Obama's comments about Hamas as political posturing that was understandable to lull supporters of Israel before the election. "I understand American politics and this is the season for elections and everybody tries to sound like he's a friend of the Israelis," he said.
Who knows?
The Belmont Club is supported largely by donations from its readers.
posted by wretchardthecat at 4/16/2008 02:35:00 PM
90 Comments:
The only reason to talk to Hamas is to discuss the method of Israel's destruction. Seems about right based on the list of talkers.
How does one get a ticket to live in the world where process is oh so much more important than outcome?
I think a lot of people would cheer if the Jews would just charge the "border" with Gaza and run all those Mossies down into Egypt and auction off all the Real Estate to other Jews or people sympathetic to them. Then they could have "peace" conferences in Stockholm and wherever for the next thirty years along with quiet on the southern border with Egypt. They could all use a rest. I could use a rest. Why should these people trouble the whole world? Enough already!
Jimma Carter backed into the WH following the Watergate fiasco. His aw shucks smile and folksy ways got him elected.
As a President he was a total failure, finally hiding out in the WH for the last 444 days while our Embassy in Tehran was ransacked and our diplomats held hostage.
Since that time he's desperately tried to have some impact and stay important, again with miserable results.
This trip is just another poke in the collective eye of America and his continued anti Semantic posture.
His entire post Presidential demeanor mirrors Billy, his late brothers urinating on the tarmac at Andrews Air Force Base prior to boarding. He's a rube.
This comment has been removed by the author.
Right now an Obama Campaign adviser is assuring Hamas that Obama will meet with them after his election. That news will be leaked to the Washington Post. Obama will disavow any such intention and this adviser will resign. All will then be peachy keen.
"Being ready to talk" sounds like a virtue. But it is an empty virtue if it means a willingness to talk to answering machine or to keep calling a disconnected line.
The problem is getting Hamas to listen.
Now what is the difference between talking to the Palestinians and talking to the Anbar tribes? The difference being able to protect the real partners for peace against those who would, on the evening after you speak to the moderates, kill them.
The problem in Gaza is that the line only rings in the killers office. We keep trying to connect to the moderates. But they are far from the phone and will never come near until we can protect them, like our allies in Anbar.
Therefore Carter is simply talking to the oppressors of the Palestinians, let alone the killers of the Jews. It's interesting, but hardly useful.
Spengler at the Asia Times sums up the Arab - Israeli conflict
"No matter what Israel offers, the Palestinian Arabs as well as Israel's neighbors cannot accept a permanent Jewish state"
Why - because:
"Islamic governments cannot accept the return of the Jews to Zion according to Biblical prophecy, for this would question the Koran's claim to be a final revelation to supplant the Judeo-Christian scriptures."
There's not a single person on that list of "great Americans" who is worth a hoot.
Today President Bush hugged the Pope.
Yesterday ex-President Carter hugged a Hamas terrorist.
The difference couldn't be starker.
Hamas will never accept Israel until and unless about 40-50% of the gunmen are dead, the rest threatened with impoverishment.
To make Peace with Hamas, Israel must defeat them (and their people in Gaza). Thoroughly. Completely. Give them a level of May 1945 Berlin destruction.
Then offer talks.
That is the only proven way to get peace. "Talking" is merely a code for "I'm tired of fighting, let me surrender to you."
Wretchard,
Are you sure there are any moderates in Gaza to protect? They did vote these guys into office. Wasn't the election reasonably fair?
The real solution in Gaza is simple, I think. Just make the Egyptians an offer they can't refuse to occupy Gaza and enforce Egyptian authority.
talk? sure...
I'd talk to hamas
1st thing i'd say is, hey hamas, watch your tv set, see that area of gaza, we are cluster bombing it...
now, let's talk, do you accept the gaza border as an international border?
if you say no, then we will bomb your water, sewage and power...
now let's talk...
do you accept israel's right to exist as a jewish state?
if you say no, let me talk to you and tell you gaza will cease to exist...
it's time to talk
and talk we should...
accept israel or die a painful death...
how is that for "talking"?
Wretchard wrote:
Now what is the difference between talking to the Palestinians and talking to the Anbar tribes? The difference being able to protect the real partners for peace against those who would, on the evening after you speak to the moderates, kill them.
The problem in Gaza is that the line only rings in the killers office. We keep trying to connect to the moderates. But they are far from the phone and will never come near until we can protect them, like our allies in Anbar.
This is, as Wrecthard must know, very weak ground and terribly foolish to boot. Who are "the real partners" for peace in the Anbar province, or in Gaza? Can you name any of them? Maybe Baathist scum like Col. al-Zobaie, the Sunni commander we've but in charge of Falluja? Why shouldn't we trust him?
What al-Zobaie wants is for the U.S. military to hand over full control of Fallujah. He believes Iraq's current leaders aren't strong enough. Asked whether democracy could ever bloom here, he replied: "No democracy in Iraq. Ever."
"When the Americans leave the city," he said, "I'll be tougher with the people."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/23/AR2008032301990.html
This foul coterie of Sunni tribal leaders, Islamists and Baathists are simply waiting for President Obama or Clinton to pull the troops out so they can go back to killing the "Iranian stooges" who've taken over their country. And in the meantime they'll take our cash disbursements and bide their time. Sometimes they'll even tell us their intentions, not that the Belmont Club is listening.
"Our allies" in Anbar. Please. Men like the psychotic Abu Abed, who used to be an intelligence officer for Saddam and is now a Sunni Warlord?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/nov/10/usa.alqaida
Wretchard, can you actually name any of these precious Arab allies for peace either within Anbar or in Gaza? Just wondering.
WiO: do you accept israel's right to exist as a jewish state?
if you say no, let me talk to you and tell you gaza will cease to exist...
You would call for a Holocaust of 1.5 million Gaza Strip Arabs because Hamas does not recognize the right of Jews to live in what they perceive is their homeland? What happened to "Thou Shalt Not Kill" ?
Whiskey_199: To make Peace with Hamas, Israel must defeat them (and their people in Gaza). Thoroughly. Completely. Give them a level of May 1945 Berlin destruction.
Bombing for peace is like fucking for virginity.
Ah, piffle, aenea, not so many nights-weeks- ago you agreed with me when I said any more rockets they ought to flatten the damned place. Now you come up with this piffle.
RE: Inviting Egypt into Gaza
Fun to think about, but there is a reason Egypt, Jordan, Syria, et al. have left the Arab refugees from 1948 to rot in misery and squalor. It's a powerful public relations club to beat Israel with, and it's been INCREDIBLY effective, especially in recent years. Why would Egypt fix something that ain't broke? Sharon actually ceded control of Gaza to the "Palestinian" resistance, which is a hell of alot more than Egypt ever accomplished with decades of combat. But that's a whole other topic...
Hamas, the group that willfully targets schoolchildren? Aeneas thinks that's just fine, apparently.
My dialog with them would be: Would you like to be blindfolded, or have a cigarette, before we shoot you?
Hamas is not just an enemy of Israel, they are an enemy of civilization, of humanity. They should be eradicated like a disease.
aenea said...
WiO: do you accept israel's right to exist as a jewish state?
if you say no, let me talk to you and tell you gaza will cease to exist...
You would call for a Holocaust of 1.5 million Gaza Strip Arabs because Hamas does not recognize the right of Jews to live in what they perceive is their homeland? What happened to "Thou Shalt Not Kill" ?
aenea
1st i did not call for a holocaust of the fucktards that live in the strip, i called for the strip to cease.
I advocate the destruction of the border between gaza and egypt and the pushing the population of gaza OUT into the sinai, where the UN can provide them with ready to eat meals, water and treats.
2nd. If the 1.5 million fucktard nazis of the gaza strip seek WAR with israel, then war they shall have, after all israel LEFT gaza 2 years ago, and it was the population of gaza that has shot over 5000 rockets INTO israel, planted bombs and kidnapped an israeli
3. I never heard of thou shall not kill, since that is NOT what it says... however if you care to broaden your limited mind, it's "no murder"
4. The People who gave the world the "10 Commandments" are the Jews and as you put it "right of Jews to live in what they perceive is their homeland" if it aint the JEWS HOMELAND then there is NO SUCH THING as the 10 Commandments and simply offing the fucktard arabs is quite acceptable...
you cant have it both ways...
Israel IS... and Israel gave the world the torah, now you think that the murderous, inbred (cousins who marry cousins generation after generation) fucktard arabs who cant stop murdering each other, let alone seeking to cause genocide have rights?
Nope, the gazans have lost all rights by continuing to bomb, attack and murder...
It's time to KICK them out, and those who wont leave and wish to stay and fight? die a painful death
good riddance to the nazi scum...
bobal said: Ah, piffle, aenea, not so many nights-weeks- ago you agreed with me when I said any more rockets they ought to flatten the damned place. Now you come up with this piffle.
Are you sure, Bobal? My solution to the Palestinian issue has always been for Israel to divide and rule, subdivide and rule absolutely. In other words, not just a fence along the Green Line, but a whole hedgerow-country maze of fences, until Gaza and the West Bank are divvied up into so many little barrios and you have to get permission from the local IDF colonel to walk your dog.
Israel considering large Gaza incursion after Bush visit
Of course they have been talking about this for months now.
I don't see how Israel can allow Gaza to continue to fester. A big incursion, or at least several smaller incursions like the one in March, seem to be required to remove Hamas from their position of power in Gaza.
I guess that Israel isn't likely to start something like this with their 60th anniversary celebrations ready to start soon or GWB shortly coming to visit.
I guess we'll see.
Aenea: "Bombing for peace is like fucking for virginity."
And yet, there is not a virgin in the world today who would be alive if their parents hadn't fucked. Something to think upon, ne? ^_^
Ah but Aeana the historical record shows you are completely wrong.
Israel had no peace whatsoever, until it defeated Egypt, not once, but in 1948, again in 1967, and again in 1973. Until Egypt had known, bitter, bitter defeat and concluded it was better to sign peace agreements with Israel ... AND ABIDE BY THEM, there was no peace.
EVERY thinker who has had practical experience on the matter, from Sun Tzu, to Machiavelli, to Miyamoto Musashi, to Curtis LeMay, to William Tecumseh Sherman, to George S. Patton, have concluded that the only way to achieve peace with an enemy is to defeat him. Defeat him soundly. Then offer him terms. So he has no incentive whatsoever to resume hostilities.
The Romans certainly got peace with Carthage. You might quibble with their methods, but the result was peace. Carthage never bothered them again after the last time.
Hamas has no incentive to sign a peace deal with Israel, and even less to hold to it. Why should they? If rocketing got the Israelis to withdraw from Gaza, why won't low-level war of attrition simply force Israelis out of Israel proper? Particularly with Iran's nuclear threat hanging over Israel (recall that Gazans have no problem with themselves dying, conceptually, as long as all Israelis die too).
If Israel wants peace, it must create a demand for Peace in Gazans (and also West Bankers). Therefore, as ugly as it may be, Israel must kill about 40-50% of the fighting men in Gaza. This first off prevents Gazans from further low-level attrition warfare, and Israelis must put Israeli lives over Gazans (this is proper). Further, Israel must destroy much though not all of the infrastructure of Gaza, and particularly to the wealth/landholdings of key Gaza players who back Hamas (and leave others opposed to Hamas alone). Lastly, Israel must annex part of Gaza permanently, and do something to make the land uninhabitable (mine it, whatever). A goodly third or more would do it.
This creates incentives for Gazans for peace. Since the longer the conflict goes on, the more Gazans risk losing permanently more territory and thus wealth/power. An incentive also for West Bankers.
I think peace is DEFINITELY possible. But to get it, Israel will have to pay. In blood, money, and in killing other people. A disgusting matter in any event. But there it is.
"Talking" to Hamas will do nothing. Nor will "allies" who are "moderate" which is laughable in the tribal zone of Gaza or West Bank. Or Iraq. Or Afghanistan. Still Peace there is possible if enough of the targeted people have been killed.
Hamas is not Ten Feet Tall. They are not unstoppable. Gazans can be made sick of attrition low-level warfare if enough are dead. Certainly WWI-WWII made Europeans, who had a habit of slaughtering each other, sick of it for now.
On a personal note I find your views naive and profoundly stupid. Liable like the Italian "Bride for Peace" to get people killed. The world is an ugly place filled with violence. A steady hand and a willingness when absolutely required to do disgusting things is the only proven way to get through this world.
Nothing is free. Everything costs. Particularly peace.
Well aenea I may have exaggerated a little, but I recall something along that line. I am marking your latest entry for future reference:)
WiO,
Stop mincing your words and tell us how you really feel . . . !!! LOL! Love the 4 talking points.
towering barbarian -- alas, that is no longer the case, what with IVF and test-tubes and turkey basters and all. But maybe there outta be a law . . .
whiskey_199 - In general I agree with your analysis, but I believe we may differ on a few points. If I may comment upon your post:
"Israel had no peace whatsoever, until it defeated Egypt, not once, but in 1948, again in 1967, and again in 1973. Until Egypt had known, bitter, bitter defeat and concluded it was better to sign peace agreements with Israel ... AND ABIDE BY THEM, there was no peace."
I believe this misses a subtle point. Egypt twice experienced defeat in 1948 and 1967. Each time they chose war again. In 1973 they were defeated again, but this time chose peace. Why was this? Because there was no humiliation in their defeat in 1973. On the contrary - it restored their honor.
I think this reveals an aspect of middle east politics which is often overlooked.
The question of honor sometimes makes Arab leaders make decisions which appear irrational and
inexplicable to Western eyes.
"Defeat him soundly. Then offer him terms. So he has no incentive whatsoever to resume hostilities."
All the examples you quoted are valid, and quite logically lead to this conclusion. However, they are not examples from the middle east. The differences lie in two places:
1) "Soundly". The key point here is that your antagonist must perceive himself to be defeated.
The west has often mocked Arabs for pretending to have won a war when they have clearly lost - only to be surprised a few years later when we learn they are still willing to fight. The first Gulf war, and the battle of Karameh are good examples of this - 1973 and 1982 less so.
2) "incentive". An adversary which has been soundly beaten again and again may yet nonetheless choose to keep on fighting for reasons of Honor, even though he has no incentive to do so by our standards.
Therefore, the problem is that even if we win, they might not see themselves as defeated; and
even if they do, they may choose to continue fighting.
"If Israel wants peace, it must create a demand for Peace in Gazans ... Further, Israel must destroy much though not all of the infrastructure of Gaza... Lastly, Israel must annex part of Gaza permanently, and do something to make the land uninhabitable ... This creates incentives for Gazans for peace. Since the longer the conflict goes on, the more Gazans risk losing permanently"
It's worth remembering at this point that the entire rationale behind the Oslo peace process was that once the Palestinians had something to lose, they would prefer peace to war. In September 2000 they had self-government, and within their grasp was independence on more than 90% of their territory. What incentive did they have to throw this away? Nevertheless, that is what
they chose to do.
""Talking" to Hamas will do nothing. Nor will "allies" who are "moderate" which is laughable in the tribal zone of Gaza or West Bank"
With this, I agree completely. These talks are useless - with Hamas because of its ideology,
with Abbas because of his weakness.
"Hamas is not Ten Feet Tall. They are not unstoppable"
With this I agree also. Operation Homat Magen in 2002 proved that in the West Bank, despite all
the leftist warnings that it would only breed more terror - but it's an ongoing effort, not a silver
bullet. Furthermore, it is not clear that the same tactics can be used successfully in Gaza,
because of its density.
"Gazans can be made sick of attrition low-level warfare if enough are dead"
"Therefore, as ugly as it may be, Israel must kill about 40-50% of the fighting men in Gaza"
I'm not sure I understand the solution you are suggesting here. Are you suggesting killing half
of the men of military age (perhaps 100K people), or just the ones actually bearing arms? To do this in a few days, or over several years?
To summarize, no simple solution is visible to me. "Peace" discussions are a farce. The necessary bloodshed to force an end to the hostilities in a few days is unacceptable in today's international climate.
I've rambled enough for one post.
Jonathan Levy
Jonathan Levy: I believe this misses a subtle point. Egypt twice experienced defeat in 1948 and 1967. Each time they chose war again. In 1973 they were defeated again, but this time chose peace. Why was this?
Because in September 1979 Israel and South Africa performed a joint nuclear test in the Indian Ocean, this was picked up by the Vela satellite. You don't invade members of the nuclear club, even rogue members. Just ask Li'l Kim.
in 1973 egypt lost a war they started as a sneak attack on the jewish state's most holy day...
egypt STILL calls it a victory...
then, as most rat bastards do, they then continued to fight by using the PLO.
the PLO has admitted that what they cannot do on the battlefield they will do in "stages"
so use of TERROR on a state level was the new way...
the war has never ended, it has transformed it'sself
even today ALL OF GAZA'S ISSUES ARE DIRECTLY TRACED FROM EGYPT
ARAFAT the egyptian was the clown that had the new baton or war...
Egypt controlled the border that allowed the tunnels to carry 1000's of tons of weapons and iranian/syria trained fighters...
It is Egypt that has festered and promoted 96% of all the shit that is now a puss filled pimple that we call "gaza"...
do not be fooled about honor, the arab world has none, they are angry that ISRAEL IS...
it aint borders...
in 1948, 900,000 jews (and to say something silly) and 2 million of their descendants (that's what the fucktard palios say about their descendants) were ethnically cleansed from the 649.1/650th of the middle east, these refugees have over 6.9 billion dollars looted from them by the arab nations and people... At the same time, a smaller number of arabs were dislocated and had to move IN MOST CASES less than 100 miles away, relocating into areas that shared the same culture, speech and customs, and lost about 1.2 billion in assets. (most PERSONAL property was offered and returned by israel) which leads us to the fact that today 649.1/650th of the middle east is jew free whereas israel is now a full 20% arab....
the issue aint borders folks...
the issue is............ IS
Israel IS...
the choice? Convince the arabs to say "surrender" "uncle" "ouch" or fight the fucktards for another 100 years, but this round they are seeking bio, chem and nukes...
I read the various comments,and one things is certainly regnant. That many think there will be some type of resolution, peace, suspension of hostilities, however any of you want to characterize it.
Sorry, it's never happened before in the history of mankind. There are periods of ephemeral "peace" but they ALWAYS give way to the next war.
War is the way of mankind, not peace. And so when you war, the more death and destruction you can inflict on your enemy the longer the window of peace remains open. We no longer do that.
No sooner does war planning begin than cries of exit strategy rise like the morning sun. Exit strategy? That occurs when you send in the bull dozers to heap up the rubble and move on to the next challenge.
There is no substitute for total military victory, none, and even with that you will have a next war, and a next and a next.
One would think from reading the posts that world history has escaped the knowledge base of many. Far too many.
....and Teresita,
You can Socratic your way to the end of your days and still fail in making your point.
Futhermore simplifications, such as the bumper stickers saying:
Bombing for peace is like fucking for virginity.
Well, it that's a comparison you choose so be it. It make a big statement about your binjo ditch heritage.
Bombing at minimum retards the procreation of your enemy ..all in all a good thing. Conversely there are some women not worth the erection.
"No matter what Israel offers, the Palestinian Arabs as well as "No matter what Israel offers, the Palestinian Arabs as well as Israel's neighbors cannot accept a permanent Jewish state"
Why - because:
"Islamic governments cannot accept the return of the Jews to Zion according to Biblical prophecy, for this would question the Koran's claim to be a final revelation to supplant the Judeo-Christian scriptures."
poster ed quotes the unfortunate reality. the fact that Is. is continually and implacably undermined by people other than its stated enemies is a true stain. If Islam prevails over Zion it will be because of these "Shadow Enemies".
Aenea: "Because in September 1979 Israel and South Africa performed a joint nuclear test in the Indian Ocean, this was picked up by the Vela satellite. You don't invade members of the nuclear club..."
I believe this is an anachronism, since Sadat's visit to Israel was in 1977. A nuclear test in 1979 could hardly be the cause of his change of policy.
Brigitte Bardot on Trial for Using Muslim Slur
Former French movie star Brigitte Bardot went on trial Tuesday in Paris on charges of "inciting racial hatred" by using a Muslim slur.
Prosecutors asked the court to give the former sex symbol a two-month suspended prison sentence and fine her $23,760 for saying Muslims were "destroying our country and imposing its acts," according to Reuters.
"I am fed up with being under the thumb of this population which is destroying us, destroying our country and imposing its acts,"
Bardot said, according to Reuters.
Golda almost used the 'national asset' in '73 I believe, when things looked tough.
"Promoting a cease-fire between Israel and Gaza would be a good starting point."
Ah yes, another cease fire that only one side observes. I'm all for it as long as we define what the penalties are for those that do not adhere to the terms. We can bring the UN down from their "party of got" hangouts to monitor the cease fire.
Sorry, it's never happened before in the history of mankind. There are periods of ephemeral "peace" but they ALWAYS give way to the next war.
Up to now, but something looking like a permanent peace seems to be finally taking hold at least in Europe, the old slaughterhouse.
Bobal: Up to now, but something looking like a permanent peace seems to be finally taking hold at least in Europe, the old slaughterhouse.
The peace of dhimmitude, natch.
Up to now, but something looking like a permanent peace seems to be finally taking hold at least in Europe, the old slaughterhouse.
yep, all it cost was 60 million dead and most major cities turned into dust....
maybe 10,000 hamas fucktards dead isnt so big a price for peace?
"Up to now, but something looking like a permanent peace seems to be finally taking hold at least in Europe, the old slaughterhouse"
has thier souls changed due to the wars, if not, how will it act out now that overt war is out of the question?
"yep, all it cost was 60 million dead and most major cities turned into dust....
maybe 10,000 hamas fucktards dead isnt so big a price for peace?"
good point. it wont end the conflict but it would greatly increase Zions survival time.
Aenaea
Because in September 1979 Israel and South Africa performed a joint nuclear test in the Indian Ocean
South Africa denied the test and Israeli involvement is pure conjecture.
I have a certain amount of inside knowledge that suggests strongly there was no test and that the satellite experienced a glitch or picked up a cosmic ray burst.
To cite this "test" as proof of anything is not valid.
No Peace Without Hamas By Mahmoud al-Zahar [founder of Hamas].
Zahar has this piece in today's WaPo. It's a litany of Pal victimization, ridiculous demands without which "A "peace process" with Palestinians cannot take even its first tiny step" and on and on.
He makes a comparison between the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, whose 65th anniversary is this week, and his Islamist terrorist organization's attacks on Israeli women and children. He praises the Warsaw ghetto fighters and says that the Pals can only defend themselves in the same way. This sort of ironic comparison of Israeli Jews with Nazis is part of the Islamist and fellow traveler's plan to delegitimize Israel. He continues further by stating baldly that Israel's foundation was a crime.
Zahar ignores the fact that his "organization" has refused the simple demands of the international community to recognize Israel, honor past agreements made between the Pals and Israel, and renounce violence. He also ignores the fact that his organization's method of dealing with any problem, like its rival Fatah, is always violence. His statements suggesting that if Israel acceded to his demands peace talks would be possible are laughable, given that he can't even make peace with Fatah.
He ignores the fact that Israel has negotiated two peace agreements with its Arab neighbors and fulfilled its responsibilities over a period of nearly thirty years. Israel has proved itself to be a legitimate and honorable peace partner. The Pals by comparison have never upheld their agreements and when offered what they say they want by Ehud Barak in 2000, they said No, and started a terrorist war.
The presence of this article in a major US paper is a result of ex-pres Carter's self-aggrandizing visit with terrorists.
As stated. There will never be a lasting permanent global peace. All peace is simply a time for antithetical forces to rearm and reload before going back to war.
The looking back we do on these screens and in the pages we read are historical analysis that adds up to finding out how to do it better the next time. The smokescreen are the pronouncements that we're looking for ways to prevent war in the future. That has ALWAYS proved to be folly for another war makes it so. And another war is what we always have had throughout history.
Someone find me in the history of the world the definitive solution ot war THAT HAS WORKED. It would be a fools search for none exists.
So if a nation wants to survive, it constantly prepares for the next war. I fighting that next war half measure only assure another war at a quicker interval. Crush your enemy.
People love to look back and say that Hitler and WWII in Europe could have been avoided had it not been for the severe reparations exacted on Germany following their defeat. The seeds were planted then they say. Perhaps. But the ineluctable truth is that war always finds a way to present itself.
It is the major reason I get such humor out of anti war protesters and peaceniks. It is as if they have never read a history book or that they decided to live in an alternate reality.
This comment has been removed by the author.
Thermblog,
During the time in question I was tasked to the Directorate of Science and Technology at CIA. I concur.
You will find Teresita ( she changed her name to Aenea) Aenea makes many claims with no basis in fact. You just have to live with it.
Simply do a search on Aenea and you'll get a flavor of what I'm talking about.
The Thunder Run has linked to this post in the - Web Reconnaissance for 04/17/2008 A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day...so check back often.
habu: thanks for your perspective.
Thermblog: I have a certain amount of inside knowledge that suggests strongly there was no test and that the satellite experienced a glitch or picked up a cosmic ray burst.
You surfed Wikipedia.
Bobal,
"Up to now, but something looking like a permanent peace seems to be finally taking hold at least in Europe, the old slaughterhouse."
44 years between the Franco-Prussian war and WWI, 21 years between WWI and WWII (ignoring the allied figting against the Communists following WWI), the Berlin airlift, Soviet crushing of the East German uprising in 1953 (I think that was the year) Hungary in 1956, Czechoslovakia in 1968. I guess you can call 1968-1989 peaceful, if you're not living in Eastern Europe. Of course, don't want to forget about the struggles against the Communists in Greece followed WWII, which was actually a proxy war between the Soviets and NATO. For something more regional, there was always Turkey and Greece, although that has calmed down somewhat.
And since the Wall came down, you have Bosnia.
And not-so-veiled Russian threats against the Ukraine.
I'm not seeing a "permanent peace" yet in Europe.
Thermblog.
See what I mean. If she can't prove her point with fact then she attacks your source or goes a bit psycho.
She's a piece of work.
Habu,
Nice to see you around - fighting the good fight, as always, I see :)
Triton
Aeaeae:
You surfed Wikipedia.
Well you don't know that, you're just saying it. I could have been lying but why would I bother when what I said was somewhat peripheral to the whole argument and in any case, Johnathan Levy had killed your logic. Habu could be lying too but his statement tracks with his pre-existing blog profile and the discussion is rational.
The difference in the end seems to be between people who calmly seek truth (and acknowledge the faults of the side they have taken after establishing that truth) and ideologues who cherry pick facts and are willing to believe only what suits them to support their belief.
If you watch the discussions objectively, you can tell the difference after a while and can apply it to news items as well.
Well, I ran into a hell of a buzzsaw with that 'something like a permanent peace' statement:) But, moslems aside, it's unlikely France,
Germany and
England are going to go at it again. I'll put it that way and see if I do better.
HABU is FRAUD
Send me my $10,000 ass hole and quit picking on the girls:
______
On a cached file at Market Watch, he claimed he had a BA in Political Science:
"Bio
UF 1970 BA Political Science....UF 1971 MS.. International Relations....USMC 1971-1973.... recruited to CIA 1973-1982......IBM 82-84.....Stockbroker Shearson Lehman Bros/Smith Barney/Merrill Lynch retired..live in Montana and Florida.."
_________
At Belmont Habu has a BS in Political Science:
"Habu
Age: 60
Gender: Male
Astrological Sign: Aries
Zodiac Year: Rat
Industry: Investment Banking
Occupation: Retired millionaire
Location: Townsend, MT & Orange Park, FL : FL & MT : United States
About Me
Former US Marine & CIA officer. Marketing manager for IBM Beverly Hills , CA and finally broker for Smith Barney and Merrill Lynch. NO cildren. Married> Wife with Master in Computers and a 2nd degree black belt in Tae Kwon Do..also never defeated in any of the 20+ tournaments she entered while she fought.(i do all honey do's promptly) BS Univ of Florida Masters International Relations Florida"
____________
Habu over at Market Watch he claimed to be in the marines from 1971-1973. Over at Maggies farm, he posted this..."I joined the Corps in 1968 as a platoon leader and went to Vietnam, where, after several months I was recruited by the CIA because I had the right stuff."
_______________
Here is what he posted over at Maggies Farm:
"First off I grew up as the son of a Marine Aviator Colonel who was at one time Chesty Puller's G-2, prior to his aviation days where he won the Navy Cross and multiple DFC's.
I joined the Corps in 1968 as a platoon leader and went to Vietnam, where, after several months I was recruited by the CIA because I had the right stuff. I was undercover with them for over ten years, traveling to every continent on the globe, mostly alone. I was all over Laos,Cambodia, and Vietnam, Chile, Angola , just to name a few. I never got caught and I was damn good at what I did. I have a masters in International Relations, am now retired at 60 and own a place in Florida, a place in Montana, a million bucks in the bank and no debt. Following my CIA time I worked for IBM in Beverly Hills ,CA before going to work for various Wall Street firms, where I made lots of money.
Now how does that sound? I've never met anyone in my life with the type of experience I have and those who know me tell me they haven't either. I have picture of my first birthday party at El Toro where I am being bounce on the knee of Pappy Boyington who was our next door neighbor. I've known truly great men all my life, leaders, the best of which was probably Gen. Vernon Walters (CIA) who I reported directly to for several years. I know my shit.
At 60 I can still bench press 300 pounds and my Remington 700 is still very accurate.
Now, son, what was your question about my qualifications to give lessons?
#11.1 Habu on 2008-01-30 19:38 (Reply)
______________
What a worthless lying sack of shit.
..."Thermblog.
See what I mean. If she can't prove her point with fact then she attacks your source or goes a bit psycho.
She's a piece of work."...
Then there are some psychos that have to play make believe....
"Now how does that sound? I've never met anyone in my life with the type of experience I have and those who know me tell me they haven't either. I have picture of my first birthday party at El Toro where I am being bounce on the knee of Pappy Boyington who was our next door neighbor. I've known truly great men all my life, leaders, the best of which was probably Gen. Vernon Walters (CIA) who I reported directly to for several years. I know my shit."...
Platoon leader! Semper fi my ass.
Fortunately, courage and honor and bravery are not a zero sum game, so our veterans who gave everything they got are not diminished when someone comes along trying to steal unearned glory. But it is somewhat sickening.
Habu,
I had the oppotunity to hear Gen Walters speak once (approx 1978) - what an incredibly fascinating individual!
Slowhand,
Apparently you,ve never heard of the PLC program.
When you get up to speed let me know.
As for my background, you haven't proved one thing, you've made accusations that you can't come close to proving.
Here's a better way. Go to the CIA via FOIA and check it out.
Boyington. Our neighbor at MCAS El Toro 1948. Here's another BIG clue that will have you eating your own shit. In the base paper at Cherry Point ,NC there is a picture of me getting sworn into the Corps. The paper is 1968 vintage ..go at it inspector..if you can't find it too bad cause I've got a copy I've got my discharge papers signed by former Senator Chuck Robb, them in the Corps.
So have at it. BTW I just did a 380 bench and my birthday is 4/14/48 so the site updated it.
But quite honestly I'm not going down this road with you clowns again. The jealousy of your hollow life must be unbearable.
Leave the girls alone? You've got to be kidding. No Semper Fi for you as no doubt you're panty waste.
Slowhand,
Your bio is non existent. Who were you before you established a new persona so you could mask who you are?
No doubt one of the diaper wearing REMF AF types over at the bar.
Slowhand,
An if I'm not who I claim to be what on earth makes you think I would fork over 10k to you on what you've come up with? You are simple.
If I had to guess I'd say you're Doug from the EB.
exhelodrvr1
As you can see I have a fan club fixated on my background.
Gen Walters was involved in lots of things with the Company.(When I use Company it drives then wild..one woman even told me that nobody ever called it the Company.) Maybe today they don't but in the 1970's they did.
I also asked them once if they didn't believe me to tell me where the gym was located in the original building, the type of equipment etc. Also what was the unique feature in the cafeteria (anyone can visit the cafeteria. No reponses..
We'll I know they're still on radar so let me tell.
The gym was in the absolute basement, way down where the piping for the building was. It looked like something out of the 1930's with those wall mounted pulley weights. It had some old mats on the floor and I think a set of Olympic weights...you couldn't get down there without being "Inside"
The unique feature in the cafeteria was the birds. The small critters would come in the doors leading to the benches out back and would nest up in the rafters..they never got them out while I was there.
I could go on but as I said they've been playing this game since I bested several of the grand pooh bahs over at the bar..They've probably got a squad of computer nerds aimed right at me....sorry you came in at a time when they once again left their reservation to come over here to harass me...but it's all cool..see I WAS there and they weren't.
This comment has been removed by the author.
Slowhand,
I updated my bio at MarketWatch to make you feel better. Please feel free to use it all.
BTW did you happen to notice what percentage I was in at MarketWatch and how many points I've accumulated? The figures are by MarketWatch , not me. They are for recognition of knowing what you're talking about...catch those figures?
The one time I looked Habu your accuracy was 0% and that was an hour ago. What's it read now? Must be your skills as a company man...
Habu, the Company Man, is probably not aware that Google caches deleted and changed pages. Habu scrambled to change his bio over at Market Watch. The original is still in cache here.
He changed it to something he thinks is amusing because I have exposed him for what he is, a fraud, a never was and a never will be. He challenged someone to prove he is a liar. He lost, although there is the possibility he was under cover over at maggies farm.
Tell us Habu, what part of your time line is at odds with reality. Here is what you tried to delete from Market watch:
"
UF 1970 BA Political Science....UF 1971 MS.. International Relations....USMC 1971-1973.... recruited to CIA 1973-1982......IBM 82-84.....Stockbroker Shearson Lehman Bros/Smith Barney/Merrill Lynch retired..live in Montana and Florida.."
and here is the tale you told at maggies farm:
"I joined the Corps in 1968 as a platoon leader and went to Vietnam, where, after several months I was recruited by the CIA because I had the right stuff. I was undercover with them for over ten years, traveling to every continent on the globe, mostly alone. I was all over Laos,Cambodia, and Vietnam, Chile, Angola , just to name a few. I never got caught and I was damn good at what I did. I have a masters in International Relations, am now retired at 60 and own a place in Florida, a place in Montana, a million bucks in the bank and no debt. Following my CIA time I worked for IBM in Beverly Hills ,CA before going to work for various Wall Street firms, where I made lots of money"
This comment has been removed by the author.
just a point to clarity...
to hell with moral relativism.....
The concept of war with hamas and israel needs to be simply understood...
The Jews Have a right to their own homeland inside of the .09/650th of the middle east that they have been pushed into by BOTH the world and the arab world.
If you seek Israel's destruction then the concept of total war against you is well earned and deserved.
I shall not make excuses for those seeking the legal right to "erase" my people. Currently it is "legal" to kill a jew, if not on paper, certainly by licensed states behavior. I take exception to that concept...
Habu: (When I use Company it drives then wild..one woman even told me that nobody ever called it the Company.) Maybe today they don't but in the 1970's they did.
They call it the Agency. If you read bad spy novels or watch Tom Cruise movies they call it The Company. If you read fifth-grade homework assignments about organized crime, you think that connected guys call The Buisness "The Mafia".
WiO: If you seek Israel's destruction then the concept of total war against you is well earned and deserved.
I don't want to take away Israel's right to exist. But I'm not in favor of (heh heh) special rights. That's the one part of Cedarford's crap I always agreed with.
jj mollo said...
Are you sure there are any moderates in Gaza to protect? They did vote these guys into office. Wasn't the election reasonably fair?
_______________
jj, Hamas wasn't voted in for their militant arm policies. They were voted in because:
1: Their support for Palestinian state
2: Their political credit from charity and social service networks.
Their long term goal to replace Israel with an Islamic state didn't hurt. But Palestinians didn't vote to continue the violence. They voted for a nanny state and welfare programs.
Habu,
Enjoyed your posts. Enjoyed the discussions with whiskey and Levy the unapologetic Jew. Especially enjoyed the retort to the tired old hippie line about f@ckin for virginity, "some women are not worth an erection", HEEEYAH!
Then the pissin contest began, what a hoot!
All I can say is there always be war and rumor of war. All that can be done is hope for the best and be prepared for the worst.
Dealing with the challenges of the new century and the Ummah is tough. Good ideas are coming to the fore but are poorly implemented in typical govt fashion (Human Terrain Teams). The advances (relearning) of COIN have finally begun to bear fruit after 5 years.
In the past I discussed an "Armed Peace Corps" and USMC and US Army are becoming so. If only other govt agencies could move a bit faster to contribute more to this Armed Peace Corps. At least I see more talk along those lines from military experts and think tanks.
I can see the opportunities for infiltration from the enemy and can understand the "paranoia" of the leadership on our side. But Dang! Westerners need to learn the language, customs and human terrain to gain the deeper undersanding of the culture from which our enemies come. A problem is those who already do are immediately suspect. It is complicated but such is the nature of 4/5GW.
All I can do is pray for good leaders and good followers with high ideals and the way to make good things happen.
I still believe in the old saying about the best way to defeat an enemy is to make him your friend. The problem is getting the opportunity to talk. It has been said the purpose of war is to get the enemy to submit to your will. Perhaps the purpose of the new way of war is to change the enemy's mind. Perhaps the War of Ideas is becoming more important than the shooting and killing.
Forgive me for waxing philosophical. I'll end by steering y'all to an article in Small Wars Journal (yeah, this Muslim likes to read that stuff too). It is in PDF Format and is titled Winning the Ideological Battle for the Support of the Populace
(Understanding the Role of Ideology in Insurgency)
by Colonel Robert Jones
Download interim version of article as PDF
To date far too much focus has been placed on the nature of the specific (though ever changing) ideology espoused by Bin Laden, and also on the aggrandized, almost mystical, value assessed to the role of ideology in insurgency in general, and for the Global War on Terrorism in particular. To take the position that ideology is the strategic center of gravity (source of all strength and power) of this, or any, insurgency shows a lack of understanding of both the concept of centers of gravity and the nature of insurgency. This is a topic for an entire book in of itself, so this paper will merely address a few key points on the narrower topic of the role of ideology in insurgency.
Download interim version of article as PDF
Salaam eleikum Y'all!
They call it the Agency. If you read bad spy novels or watch Tom Cruise movies they call it The Company. If you read fifth-grade homework assignments about organized crime, you think that connected guys call The Buisness "The Mafia". - Aenea
Gotta back Habu on this one. The CIA was called "The Company" for many many years, both by people in its employ, and by outsiders.
Hell, there's even a well-known book about the formative and Cold War years of the CIA called "The Company".
It's obvious that SlowHand thinks he smells smoke, w/r/t Habu, but I'm not sure the minor discrepancies between some online bios typed up off the top of his head are cause for others to jump on the bandwagon.
Personally, I don't care what his background is, or isn't. I don't much care for Habu's inability to complete a thought without 3-5 consecutive posts, but I can't fault any of what he's said on this particular line of commentary. It's all pretty readily available information.
i do enjoy some of his viewpoints and like to think his assurances are going to happen but if he has been blowing smoke i will feel a bit of a jackass. anyone that would lie about serving thier country has a serious credibility problem. i really hope its not true.
There's always the problem with having people who were barely born , or not yet born in getting them to understand certain things.
It is amusing that those who have questions themselves have no bios to look at, no credibility in what they write and then attempt to rewrite history from what they have read thirty years hence.
I would be astonished if any of my fan club were more than grade schoolers or even alive when I was in the Company. Phillip Agee, one of the first defectors from the CIA, wrote and had publish a notorious book called "Inside the Company; A CIA Diary". He had to have it published in England, since he named names and caused the death of several operators in South America.
How "the Company " designation came about was through the need for a name to use in documents, contracts etc that were written between the CIA and companies such as TRW or Kodak. It wouldn't make much sense to refer to the CIA in a written document as 'The Agency" since that narrows the field considerably.
Now I will not ,as I stated before continue this pissing contest with you children. When you get the FOIA information, the USMC info then you'll know. Whether you know or not I really don't care. This is the internet where anon's roam free, people make up stuff and all manner of rumors can get generated.
Were it a court of law and witnesses produced your "gotcha" would be bupkis. At this point it's conjecture on your part.
If you care to use your time to prove a non existent point please go right ahead.
In the meantime your outrage is duly noted and I'm still laughing in your face. BTW the publication at MCAS Cherry Point was , and may still be called the Windsock...look up the picture which ID's me and gives my date of entry into the Corps, 1968. The Company info is classified. In the 1970's one was even prohibited from seeing their own file.
So this is the last time I will address this issue. Think what makes you fell good. Or if you are so hot you can't bear it, get an attorney and file suit, I guarantee you will lose and thus be not only monetarily poorer but look intellectually vacant. I don't imagine you'll do that so just kkep writing over and over , Habu is a liar, Habu is a liar..it can become your raison d'etre. How pathetic is that?
Yashmak: Gotta back Habu on this one. The CIA was called "The Company" for many many years, both by people in its employ, and by outsiders.
I know that. But it occurred to me that if someone wanted to boost their credentials for posting in this online think tank they could claim to be a millionaire, or a Marine, or an ex-CIA secret agent, and if anyone pressed for more information they could keep going "sorry, that's classified" or "I don't want to relive my combat experience" and they could reap the benefits of being an "authority" without the hard work of making a consistent bio. Add to this the fact that I "know someone" (wink) who really is a Fed, and she never talks about what she really does or where she works. So I probed ol' Habu with the statement that no one who really works in the Company actually calls it the Company. The results were most instructive.
Since there were no hotlinks to Marzouq, the Redneck Muslim's referenced article. So here's the link to the PDF directly of Col. Robert Jones' "Winning the Ideological Battle for the Support of the Populace".
Interesting stuff... some valid observations. i.e. the passages about "when the government performs, the populace remains loyal" can explain much about Hamas winning elections in Palestine... based on their charity networks.
Others I find questionable opinion only. For example I have to wonder about Col. Jones' passage INRE employing superior counter-ideology methods:
___________________
The best arguments always stand on their own merits and do not rely upon attacking the relative merits of the opposing position. This is particularly true when the argument is about something as subjective and deeply personal as religion. Virtually any effort to discredit the Islamist ideology will be perceived as an attack on the religion as a whole, and must be avoided. The West must produce a superior message.
What the U.S. should do is fall back to its last credible position, which is probably the Truman Administration, and conduct a comprehensive review of all foreign policies and programs implemented since then as they are based on the Cold War model.
_____________________
Unless I'm reading it wrong, this section suggests that the adherence to our fundamental freedom to worship (or even not to worship) in any chosen any religion has waivered since Truman. And in that, I wholly disagree.
For whatever differences in war strategies and effective performance, never once has a US operation imposed mandated religion and worship as a criteria *anywhere* (let alone Afghanistan or Iraq).
Indeed, the forces we are battling promote elevating to power a government structure demanding exactly the opposite. The global jihad movement seeks implementation of Sharia/Islamic law to replace "apostate and corrupt" Arab regimes. This, right after they eliminate any hint of western influence in Arab lands.
The countries' internal "insurgents" are diferent than the jihad movement. They are thugs, gangsters and mafia seeking local power outside of a central government. And it is up to the government's forces to reign in their criminal elements. or to cave to their power is to allow the jihad movement inroads to a government takeover.
But I do agree with you, Redneck Muslim. Learning language and culture is integral. However the mindset between the two cultures is so very vast, that in it lies a chasm of traps that can "out" even the most studiously trained.
The only problem I've ever had with Habu is, you got to be a real illiterate, a true dolt, to think Herbert Spencer knows shit. But then, a man can't be all that Habu had been, without making one mistake. On a lot of other stuff I agree with the man, CIA or not. I too enjoy reading his writings, and his hilarious personalities.
Bobal: On a lot of other stuff I agree with the man, CIA or not. I too enjoy reading his writings, and his hilarious personalities.
I too would miss Habu if he left, hopefully he won't leave merely because I return fire. This is the blogosphere, you are what you post, not what you manage to pencil-whip for a resumé.
Whoa, but happened to the little cartoon girl, with the squirt gun, that wanted to blow my brains out?
Bobal:Whoa, but happened to the little cartoon girl, with the squirt gun, that wanted to blow my brains out?
I never wanted to blow your brains out, or flatten Gaza. This must be what Obama calls "Silly Season."
matahrley,
Thanks for posting the link. Your point about the vastness of difference between the Ummah and West is well taken.
The key (IMHO) is connection with moderates and education. Those masses protesting are influenced by radical imams who use the Quran as a tool to sway those ignorant masses to theri corrupt world view. Similar things happen in USA such as ranting "Reverend" Wright and his flock or Farrakahn and his flock.
Reasoned dialog between true scholars of the Abrahamic faiths can make a difference. A good example is the effort of Pope Benedict.
Nice to see you on this blog.
Salaam!
I never heard of Hubert Spmver until this blog so I looked him up.Seem he knew alt of stuff. Why would ne be a dolt?
He sure wrote alot
Cause he was a lame brain that never considered the possibility that the One might be experienced.
Cause he spent his philosophical life inspecting the loins, and the guts, never getting to the heart.
Cause he never heard that sound made by no two things striking together, as Dante did hear.
Bobal: Cause he never heard that sound made by no two things striking together, as Dante did hear.
El Rushbo says words mean things. If clap is defined as the sound of two hands striking together, then there cannot be the sound of one hand clapping, by definition. As well describe a two-sided triangle.
You know better than that.
Woops, Aenea, I mean Teresita, you used the wrong login. I guess it is hard to keep them all strait.
Aenea/Teresita/.... is a performance "artist" who comments only to get a reaction. Accordingly, she has no need to be consistent (though I think she is a libtard - too much of the stuff she spews comes from the libtard script book and she seems particularly motivated to be-spoil the comments a this relatively conservative site). Teresita, you are sad and you deserve all the respect of your fellow performance "artist" who claimed to abort a child for “art”.
"Whoops" and "straight" - ugh.
Teresita knows her Huck Finn, and that's a fact.
this is a dead thread by now but i wanted to address this identity authentication crap. who gives a shit. one of the people making a stink about it keeps changing her name, her blog info and webpage. Tera"state department" used to list a link to her web site with photos of her in short shorts listing as one of her interests as Lesbianism. Are you a lesbian or are you just interested in it? I know you mentioned you were married though. f*ck the cover, read the book, then judge. Look at Marzouq The Redneck Muslim. i can believe he is a Muslim just by the way he refers to jewish people as the "unapologetic jew" or the "radical jew" but i have my doubts on whether he is a "redneck", he has not said anything that would indicate this to me (i am surrounded by them).
Post a Comment
<< Home