A political duet
Hillary Clinton recalls the fond memories of her youth.
“You know, my dad took me out behind the cottage that my grandfather built on a little lake called Lake Winola outside of Scranton and taught me how to shoot when I was a little girl,” she said.
“You know, some people now continue to teach their children and their grandchildren. It’s part of culture. It’s part of a way of life. People enjoy hunting and shooting because it’s an important part of who they are. Not because they are bitter.” ...
"As I told you, my dad taught me how to shoot behind our cottage,” she said. “I have gone hunting. I am not a hunter. But I have gone hunting." Clinton said she has hunted ducks.
To which Barack Obama replied, "she's talking like she’s Annie Oakley!"
Each of these vignettes is revealing in its own way about both Clinton and Obama, but not in the way they think. The Clinton story was intended to be a reference to Barack Obama; but the duck hunting story itself, which sounded like a kind of made to order memory, seems far more convincing as testimony to Hillary's willingness to say anything to score a political point. On the other hand, Obama's riposte was supposed to be about Hillary but turns out to be a really fascinating study of him. There's a hint of contempt in his delivery, right there on the edge of the laugh, and it's not just for Hillary either.
Hillary's no mystery. Barack is slowly coming into view.
The Belmont Club is supported largely by donations from its readers.
posted by wretchardthecat at 4/14/2008 01:01:00 AM
80 Comments:
I confess I missed it, and not because I wasn't willing to see it. It looked like a very good response. It shifted the focus from his gaffe to what sounds like another of Hillary's fabrications.
I'm waiting for Hillary to accuse him of being a liberal who's going to raise our taxes and nationalize the medical industry. It sounds like she's forgotten what party she's in.
Obama's snob attitude may not be enough for him to loose the nomination. But it won't play well at general election time.
Suggestion for HRC primary campaign bumper sticker:
"Vote for the Phony. It matters!"
A pro-Hillary site makes the argument that Annie Oakley was actually a stereotype breaker in her day -- just like Hillary. I didn't quite see it that way though they found that line of argument compelling. There's no smoking gun in the Obama video I can objectively point to as being tinged with contempt. The reaction was entirely my own and might well be wrong. I don't say that it's right. Only that it's my takeaway.
I am not sure if I detected the contempt in his voice... but I certainly inferred it. Even the most cursory glance of Annie's bio reveals that she was a woman from a rural mid-western town who clung to guns. Could Obama possibly respect such a "typical white person?" ;-)
They get bitter, check.
They cling to guns or religion, check.
Or antipathy to people who aren't like them, check.
Or anti-immigrant sentiment, check.
Or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations, check.
Typical.
High School friend "Ray" was a typical black from LA,
...with a Japanese name.
"Can I Get Me a Hunting License Here?"
Hillary's in a bind now. Everything she says sounds like a tall tale, even when she minimizes it ("... I'm not a hunter, but ..."). No one expects her to have been a hunter. Normally this statement would have been simply glossed over, but Obama jumped on it because he realizes she's got a weakness there. What you heard in his voice was the sound of gloating. I didn't like it much either, but he does have a point.
Seems like this weekend we're watching the disaggregation of the Democratic Party. A couple months ago I speculated it might reach the point where both Barak and Hill run to lose the nomination. The winner will lose in November because a third of the Democrats will stay home. And the loser may well win the nomination and the White House in 2012. So each will work to make the other unelectable while assuring the other gets the nomination. But you can't be obvious. It's a delicate operation.
Obama's behind in this race because he's so far ahead. But the man's got talent. This new theme "Send me your bitter, your angry, your desperate -- those who fear strangers and cling to guns and religion. I shall register them (but not their guns!) and encourage them to vote for the first time -- those huddled masses yearning for free, well, hand outs from D.C." Hey, Barry, freeloading layabouts don't want it known. So who's gonna put an "OBAMA" sticker on their jalopy? Not me!
Now here he is ragging on Hillary: "She's talking like she's Annie Oakley!"
OK, Barry, your digs are all true but please, stop truthin' us so much -- unless you want to lose. Hillary won't even have to cry to get the gals marching to the polls. I mean, knocking Annie Oakley!
And while your routine was very funny, you are not running for the job of late night comedian. President's often use self deprecating humor. It helps connect with the voters in a way that makes the candidate look humble and confident and like one of the guys. And not mean like Don Rickles. A well placed jab at the other guy is fine. Here you were pulling out Hillary's finger nails and burying here alive. It hurt and the entire nation salutes you for it because the Clinton's have it coming. But saluting ain't voting.
Despite a great start, Barry, you will have to work hard to lose the nomination while making it look like it was stolen. Maybe you can blame it on Rush Limbaugh.
A pro-Hillary site makes the argument that Annie Oakley was actually a stereotype breaker in her day -- just like Hillary.
Hmm. I wonder which stereotype they think Hillary's broken. Big spending, nanny-state leftist? Lying, corrupt politician?
There's no smoking gun in the Obama video I can objectively point to as being tinged with contempt.
I saw the contempt, I just couldn't infer that the target was anyone beyond Hillary. The gaffe itself was revealing enough on that score, but I think the mask is back in place now.
In truth, the man is such a cipher that it's easy to project on him whatever one wants to see, whether it's racial reconciler, crypto-black nationalist radical, or effete big city liberal. I suspect that at the center is just a guy who wants to be somebody in the world, and has chosen what seemed like a plausible path to get there. He's very adept at telling people what they want to hear, which is a strategy that worked well for Bill Clinton. Bill had a lot of help from Ross Perot though.
I "cling" to my gun because I dont want to drop it when it goes off.
Lots of pictures in the MSM this morning of Hill knocking back shots and mugs of draft beer. She would be a hoot in a duck blind. She could tell stories about dodging sniper fire in between blowing highballs and soft feed chatter....
I believe that here father took her hunting like I believe that she's a Yankee fan.
CW
Sometimes I ask myself what the real difference is between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama. I've often argued that Barack is willing to assume the position of the last person he talked to, but Hillary does the same. She shapes her sails to suit the prevailing wind.
Hillary is phony but it's written all over her. Obama is something else.
I guess the big mystery for me is whether Barack is still a man of the Left. I'm kinda hoping that he is. Because strange to say, I don't think there's anything wrong with being on the Left so long as you hoist your true colors. Like Ralph Nader. Or whoever the Communist Party of the USA is going to field for President this year. For decades they ran Gus Hall until he died of old age. Winning was never so important to those guys that they would cover up who they were.
So part of me wants to discover Barack Obama is a man of the Left who is trying to scam his way into the Presidency, because then he'd be authentic in a way. Like a POW escapee who bluffed his way past the guards. All's fair in love and war and all that rot.
What would be somewhat disappointing is to discover that he's just a slicker version of Hillary. That his allegiance to the Chicago slum dwellers lasted only until he met Rezko; that his old activist connections were "good in their day" but are baggage now in this day of billionaire fundraisers. A man who can say goodbye to his friends, even if his friends are like the reprehensible Pastor Wright, simply in order to succeed, might make good statesmen, but still be tragic figures in some way.
And there's an outside chance that he's the real deal. That Barack Obama is the One. But which One?
I saw a longer version of this "routine" that left openings for the Clintons. Assuming they actually want a nomination that in the end may not be worth having.
Sen. Obama talked about his deep attachment to religion. He tries to skate on Rev. Wright because he was not curious enough to find out what is in the religion being preached. That he was attracted to the community "works" of that church, not its theology. So what is the religion he takes so seriously? It must be done delicately. Who is the religious equivalent of Geraldine Ferraro?
Of course his second amendment talk don't jive with his record.
He tells rich folks in San Fransisco "you got to pander to the ignorant rubes on trade" and then continues to pander on trade. Then attacks Hillary for Pandering on Trade.
I think he is most vulnerable on religion. You are either religious or you are not. Bill Clinton was born again around impeachment time and then tossed the Reverends off Air Force One at 35,000 ft. But he wasn't running for reelection.
Whatever you want to say about Barack Obama, no one can deny that he is a truly inspirational figure.
Jimbo...let me be the first of the no ones who doesn't find B.Hussein Obama an inspirational figure.
If you're defining inspirational as being able to give a good speech, be the coolest kid in at Punahou School, then I'd say your definition of inspirational and mine are light years apart.
Inspirational leaders do THINGS that inspire, they don't just talk the talk, they walk the walk.
In other words he's not a Teddy Roosevelt, he's a Jimma Carter.
trish said...
"Football.
Obama forgot to mention that they cling to football.
Western Pennsylvania:
Where big hair, hoop earrings, and his and her Starter jackets never went out of style.
It's not nice to insult small town Americans (one of them will eventually get around to poisoning your dog) but neither should they be unduly flattered.
Leave that business to the C & W songwriters."
Doug,
Bowling Leagues. Think Bowling Leagues.
Wretchard,
Why would you think that Sen. Barack Obama may not be a man of the Left? His voting record is even further to the Left of Vermont Senator (and open socialist)Bernie Sanders. All his significant influences, from his mother, through Frank Marshall Davis, through Dr. Khalidi at Columbia, through his wife Michelle, and through Jeremiah Wright are Leftists.
Just because the man has been exerting great efforts to pass himself off as a centrist does not change his true colors. He isn't pragmatic; not when he says the things he said at that fund raiser in San Francisco.
Hillary's lies are just easier to uncover because the media, for some strange reason, seems overzealous in fact-checking. Need I state who it is that they are considerably less zealous to fulfill that duty in relation to?
So part of me wants to discover Barack Obama is a man of the Left who is trying to scam his way into the Presidency, because then he'd be authentic in a way.
The core of leftist ideology is about wielding power over others--for all the best reasons, of course--but it attracts people who lust after power the way dogshit attracts flies. I don't get the same vibe of power lust from Obama that I get from the Clintons. It may be there, but it doesn't ooze out of his pores like it does with them. What I get is akin to what I got from Bush: here's a man who wants to be president, not because of any strong ideological agenda, but because he wants the distinction of being President of the United States.
Even now, Bush has no real ideology. What he got from 9/11 was just a stubborn determination to fight back. Everything about the war has been negotiable except that one point. Even when I've disagreed with his half-measures, I've admired his persistence. The terrorists called him out, and he refused to back down.
It's an open question whether there is anything like that inside Obama. How would he respond when (not if) the terrorists call him out? They've attacked us under every president for the past 30 years. If he pulled the troops from Iraq, they would just him that much harder. Would he fight back like Bush, or would he fold like Carter did?
I already feel like I know the answer as far as McCain is concerned. He will fight. McCain has other negatives that make me think he will be a disaster domestically, but I subordinate those considerations to the war. I could vote for Obama and domestic gridlock if I thought there was a fighter lurking somewhere behind the mask. I'm not going to take a chance on a cipher though.
He knows betta!
That's not the way he learned to talk at home w/his typical white grandparents, or at his pricey, elite, private school, Punahou.
He's talkin like he only knows the lessons he learned from Rev. Wright, as he and his gracious wife and little girls soaked up that inspirational race-baiting demagoguery.
He knows betta!
You know,
come on!
Ardsgaine,
Barry studied the intricacies and nuance of controlling others for years.
That's a fact.
Wretcherd - if you want to understand who Hillary and Obama really are, try picturing them in oversize floppy shoes and big red noses that light up. (But don't attempt to smell that flower on the lapel. You might get soaked.)
Fred,
Then there was Alinsky, his grandparents, his grandfather's commie friend, William Ayers, Cone, Wright, the list goes on and on.
I get a kick out of pols that imply the Second Amendment is about hunting. I guess they also think a free press is for sending out party invitations.
Juwst think about this.
In many metro areas after a hotly contested sports event there's usually some rioting.
Imagine if Obama gets the nomination, gets creamed in the general election...think they'll be riots?
Because the reality is that after Rev Wright, Michelle, and his condescending attitude Obama can't win the white male vote. He's stotted over too many votes to have a defensible record because no record exists....just the old "trust me" that Jimma gave us all.
"Obama is the man with the big picture; he jumps quickly from the particular to the general and back again, for he makes sense of the world in a synchronic rather than a linear way.
For all his soaring rhetoric, there is a dispassion about him.
And yet he blends rationcinative intelligence with empathetic understanding."
- Mayhill Fowler
---
Vote for synchronicity, dispassion, rationcinative intelligence, and empathetic understanding.
-Vote Obama '08!
She sounds like a Replicant. Manufactured memories to blend in to a current context. I seem to recall that the Clinton's did not own a house or a car from the time Bill first one the governorship to the time he left office in 2001. What this tells me is that the only life they had was an artificial one, manufactured to appeal to voters.
What this tells me is that the only life they had was an artificial one, manufactured to appeal to voters.
What it screams to me is that they successfully lived off of OPM (other peoples money) for most of their lives and simultaneously ruled the kingdom. that's not a bad gig. They worked it all the way to the WH and 105 million dollars AFTER being impeached.that's hardly artificial, that's
brilliant..swimm'n pools and movie stars...
I think just before the PA election Hillary will do an Al Jolson or shoot free throws with Vernon Jordon.
The State of the Union sucks when a Barack Hussein Obama has gone this far in the Presidential election process. Regardless of any technical qualification, the guy isn't even American.
Sorry I didn't get back to you on this yesterday.
Mətušélaḥ said.
Habu,
You're building this castle on rotten wood planks. In ten fifteen years the strategic value of oil will be near zero.
Dude, if you can tell me anything accurate fifteen years out I'm nominating you for the Nostradamus Award.
PeterBoston,
Regardless of any technical qualification, the guy isn't even American.
Why he's as American as Ted Kennedy is a whore mongering alcoholic or Robert Byrd a former KKK Grand Kelgle
"Whatever you want to say about Barack Obama, no one can deny that he is a truly inspirational figure."
Hey...he inspires me to donate to politicians that don't share his views. My grandaddy ran a hunting losge in the backwoods of Maine..he thought he lived in a Utopian Paradise...I've lived on 4 seperate continents...I know I live in a Utopian Paradise.
Politco's who blather on about change scare the bejeezus out of me...change to what...Fidel Castro's vision of Utopian Paradise?
In defense of Appalachia.
We don't have alligators, but we do have swamps.
Guns:
Guys like guns. They're noisy and they break things. Some guys like them so much they join the army so they can shoot some really big ones, and break some really big things.
Religion (and Politics):
Proverbs 31:
6 Give beer to those who are perishing,
wine to those who are in anguish;
7 let them drink and forget their poverty
and remember their misery no more.
(Let's just hope someone tells her about 4,5 and 8.)
Patriotism:
I belong to the VFW. We march at the front of the Memorial Day parade. The people line the street, take off their hats and stand up when the colors pass.
Last year a small boy stood and saluted the flag. The company commander returned his salute as we passed by.
That boy and his friends will be the backbone of the US Armed Forces. Just as his parents,grandparents, and greatgrandparents were during WW2, Korea, Vietnam, and the Persian Gulf.
Damn Foreigners:
Pennsylvania is going to make Interstate 80, (one of two highways in the state) a toll road. Likely under foreign ownership:
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/local/13930251.html
Appalachia:
I like boats. I joined the Navy, got an education, a good job, saved enough money to invest for a reasonable income, quit my job, and moved back home.
Home to me,like most other Appalachians, is where you grew up, not where you are living now. This is because people understand that if you want to get a job, you'll have to leave. But you are always welcomed back. It is the opposite of suburbia.
You just have to have your priorities straight.
In PA, April 15 is known as the first day of Trout Season, not the last day of Tax season.
A lesson I learned down South:
"Just because we talk slow doesn't mean we're stupid"
A lesson from Appalachia:
"Don't confuse poor with stupid."
Consider this:
How many days a week do you go fishing?
Wretchard, you have a great blog. You and your guests have great such great insight. I learn things here. Thank you.
Wretchard,
don't worry about a smoking gun, this isn't "Perry Mason" where the real murderer actually confesses on the stand... there's plenty enough evidence to make clear everything a voter needs to know about Obama--far left urban machine politician, Alinsky-trained community organizer, Trinity, Ayers, Michelle's statements, Rezko, his race speech, the way he dissembles and lies under pressure---what more does one need?
Maybe it's just so different in Australia compared to US urban areas, but believe it, anyone living or having much contact in Chicago, New York, LA, or a dozen or so other cities can recognize the pattern from miles away... but there is now so much out about Obama and his associations and his own beliefs and statements, it should be clear to anyone who is paying attention and hasn't switched off their brain.
Wretchard, I cannot speak to the Left in other places. But here the Left falls into several categories.
1. Typical Left Black/Hispanic/Gay Machine politician as Martin says. Think LA's Mayor Tony, SF's Mayor Gavin, or Chicago's Mayor Daley. These guys are limited to urban centers because their coalition interests (Billionaires, Con men like Wright, poor/racist Blacks or Hispanics or Gays) are directly opposed to that of suburban middle class people.
2. Guys/Gals on the make, who use Leftism as the social standards of Billionaires as a way to get gobs of cash. Think the Clintons, John Kerry, etc. Mostly of modest backgrounds, they are on the make. More effective than #1 above because they often limit their Leftism or pick fights (Sistah Souljah) for ambitious, regional/national offices that pay more AND they understand better average middle class people, something that #1 above (urban Leftist Machine pols) don't.
3. Obama-types. These are guys who's sole point is to PUNISH those they feel are "evil" and have injured them and/or injured people in their self-identified group. The point of power is not power in and of itself, though they are fine with accouterments of power, since as "natural leaders" it is their due by Providence (without of course there being a God). Rather, they seek to punish the wicked and redeem the innocent. Who are identified by class and race markings.
Castro, Mugabe, and so on fit into this mode as well I would imagine. Here in this country, it would include Nader, Adlai Stevenson, Teddy Kennedy, George McGovern, and Eugene McCarthy. All are concerned with "moralism" and "morality" in things, such as finding Original Sin in Iraq, gun owners, "rednecks," etc. and find an echo chamber in the Press, who share their obsession with finding villains and punishing them, while elevating "victims" (Blacks, Gays, Hispanics, women). The villains of course are straight white men who are middle and working class. They can never escape from their villainy and therefore must be punished.
Even when it is to Obama's advantage to push aside his villain/victim viewpoint, he cannot. He can't pretend to like and promise things for poor/working class/middle class Whites. He's running on killing NAFTA, but can't help ridiculing and making into villains (in the typical condescending way) those who would agree with that position and who's votes he seeks.
Had he wanted power more than punishing his "enemies" (middle and working class whites) he would have said "People in PA don't like NAFTA because it costs good paying jobs, and they are RIGHT! I intend to remedy that situation, here's my plan (insert vague stuff here) and why I need your support."
That's easy, something any good pol does when they want power more than punishment. But Obama's not interested in the power as much as the punishment. Psychologically, he needs to destroy his villains (white people) which is why he still defends Wright (who says Slavery and White Supremacy are in America's DNA).
I'm beginning to understand Obama. He is no different than most politicians; he will lie, cheat, stab you in the back, or chest or skull to get what he wants. Power. No surprise there. McCain will do the same, as will Clinton. You don't get to the top of this high stakes game otherwise.
The new politics that he spoke about was really a different way of saying 'I'm above examination'. Give me power and I'll fix it all for you.
What we are seeing is how Obama reacts when he has to fight a bit. No pretty. First thing he does is blow his foot off. He attacks and insults those he needs to win.
I imagine there are quite a few democrats who are not enjoying their breakfast this morning.
Derek
I read these comments and despair for this country. I am so tired about hearing about the Left or the Right and the constant media nitpicking of every word, turn of a phrase and inflection in Obama's voice. Hillary has always attacked Obama and he has responded with class. Why does Rev. Wright's personal ideology reflect somehow on Obama's character, but not her friend Geraldine Ferrara's repeated racist remarks, or need I say Bill's? Through all of Hillary's dirty political tricks, Obama has not sunk to her level, but when he does show signs of annoyance, he is quickly lambasted for it. How dare he rag on her after fending off months of her inane attacks.
The Stockholm syndrome occurs when a hostage or the abused become dependent on or love their captives or abusers. We show symptoms of comfortability with the lies and abuse of the Bush regime, comfortable with sending our young to die in an illegal war totally unrelated to WTC or terrorism. (Saddem Hussein had nothing to do with terrorism, it was just a personal Bush family grudge). We have become comfortable with people dying for lack of proper healthcare. We have become comfortable with a President who tramples on the Constitution, finds it impossible to tell the truth, shows contempt for America, and who wishes he were a dictator. Although it is subject to media interpretation, Obama was right about bitterness. Americans have become so cynical, bitter, mean- spirited and hateful about everything, be it race, economics, religion, other Americans and the rest of the world. Our melting pot is beginning to boil over, fueled by the media, ignorance and the sheer weight of living in the present government-led atmosphere of fear. All that we held true in America, our integrity, pride, compassion, fairness, has been corrupted. We start wars, we torture, and we intimidate. The entire World once looked to the shining light that was our country, and now they either fear us, laugh at us or turn its back in disgust. The World treats us like we used to treat the Soviet Union. They must deal with us only because they must.
With all this said, I do fear that Americans cannot put down their prejudice and hate long enough to really listen to Barack Obama. He clearly states what he means. We are not used to politicians who are upfront with us or answer a straight question. Hillary acts as though she is at a pep rally, but an Obama rally dealls with serious issues. Hillary has led a dirty campaign of attacks with no real substance to her platform. She wants us to fear Obama, fear his "name", fear the fact that he really wants to change the status quo from struggle and fear to hope. She wants us to feel "comfortable" that she proposes the present business as usual in Washington. Hillary has switched her positions so many times on so many issues and run a campaign of desperation, from crying to attempts at humiliation, but Obama has remained steadfast in his platform and convictions
I liked and respected HIllary at one time, but not after this campaign. If she runs a campaign of lies and deception, would her administration be any different than the present? It is the Clintons that introduced race and Obama's father's religion into the campaign, a father he hardly knew. He went to Catholic school and public school in Indonesia when he was 4 years old, but because it is a muslim country, everyone can't seem to get it out of their heads that HE IS NOT A MUSLIM. The Clintons allude that we should fear his name, and we are "comfortable" in our fear and hate. She does not even seem like part of the Democratic Party anymore and seems to support McCain more than her party. But then there is that Stockholm Syndrome again, and she is appears to and admire McCain more than her party as he represents more of the same old mind hostage and abuse that she feels we should be "comfortable" with.
Mark:
While not from Appalachia, I understand. I grew up in Erie, but have lived in Atlanta for 40 years.
I was at my 50th HS reunion this past August. It was like I had never been away.
My wife (a New Jersey girl) liked it so much we are looking for a summer place there.
To BHO, Erie is depressed. To Erieites, it is resilient. GE's Erie plant manufactures more diesel locomotives (nearly 900/year) than any place in the world. It sells them internationally.
Without foreign trade, Erie would be dead.
Marcia Smith: He went to Catholic school and public school in Indonesia when he was 4 years old, but because it is a muslim country, everyone can't seem to get it out of their heads that HE IS NOT A MUSLIM.
He's got to be a secret Muslim, Marcia, because no real American bowls 37. And not only that, but on the April 10 edition of MSNBC’s Hardball, after reporting that Sen. Barack Obama “campaigned today in northern Indiana, shaking hands and chatting with people at a diner near South Bend,” MSNBC correspondent David Shuster stated to host Chris Matthews: “Well, here’s the other thing that we saw on the tape, Chris, is that, when Obama went in, he was offered coffee, and he said, ‘I’ll have orange juice.’ ” Matthews replied, “No,” to which Shuster responded: “He did.” So he's probably a Muslim sleeper.
Who goes duck hunting with a "six shooter"?
It's an old story, often told now , about JFK's run for the WH. He was asked why a man who was a millionaire,in the BlueBook Social Register,a US Senator, married to a beautiful woman with two young children would want to be president.
Not hesitating, Kennedy answered,
"Because that's where the power lies" And thus it is and has forever been.
When JFK asked LBJ to be his running mate LBJ consulted fellow Texan and former VP to FDR, John Nance Garner about it. Garner told LBJ, "The Vice Presidency isn't worth a bucket of warm spit" But LBJ was a force and figured he'd get his turn, so he took the offer.
The point is, is that it is always about the power. It is immense, intoxicating, and corrupting because of it's nature. Few men have the rectitude to resist it's Siren song and are eventually shipwrecked on the rocky coast of reality, but that does not stop them from wanting it. That is what made George Washington such a magnificent hero. When George III heard that Washington was leaving the Presidency he was amazed that a man would voluntarily give up that power....it took the ego and narcissism of the Socialist FDR to break the two term tradition set by Washington.
It's power. Always power. You can even see it in the demeanor of the school crossing guard with the little red sign. Any of you in a management position feel the power. It transcends the money. The money won't fawn all over you or be deferential. Power fills the ego with that every day. And we like our egos.
Marica,
Welcome to politics. I know you're going to hate reading this but you've used most of the lefts code words and laid at W's feet the entire cause for the war. Read on and learn.
It is The Left’s Iraq war lie.
now a given that when one reads an article in the MSM on the Iraq war, even given it's recent success, that the fait accompli is that it was a bogus war from the beginning.
Let’s review the now never argued lie with some observations and quotes.
The main “lie” that George W. Bush is accused of telling us is that Saddam Hussein possessed an arsenal of weapons of mass destruction, or WMDs, followed by the subsidiary “lie” that Iraq under Saddam’s regime posed a two-edged mortal threat. On the one hand, we were informed, there was a distinct or “imminent” possibility that Saddam himself would use these weapons against us and/or our allies. There was the still more dangerous possibility that he would supply them to terrorists.
The "lie" by W, defeated. Re: Iraq possession of WMD’s was the raison d’être of the war.
•George Tenet, his own CIA director, assured him that the case was “a slam dunk.” Tenet had the backing of all fifteen agencies involved in gathering intelligence for the United States. In the National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) of 2002, where their collective views were summarized, one of the conclusions offered with “high confidence” was that Iraq “is continuing, and in some areas expanding its chemical, biological, nuclear, and missile programs contrary to UN resolutions.”
•The intelligence agencies of Britain, Germany, Russia, China, Israel, and—yes—France all agreed with this judgment.
•The NIE of 2002 reached with “high confidence” was that Iraq could make a nuclear weapon in months to a year once it acquires sufficient weapons-grade fissile material.
Clinton’s Contributions
•The consensus on which Bush relied was not born in his own administration. In fact, it was first fully formed in the Clinton administration.
•Here is Clinton himself, speaking in 1998: "If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq’s weapons-of-mass-destruction program."
•Secretary of State Madeline Albright, also speaking in 1998: "Iraq is a long way from [the USA], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risk that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical, or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."
•Sandy Berger, Clinton’s National Security Adviser, made this flat-out assertion about Saddam: "He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983"
•Clinton’s Secretary of Defense, William Cohen, stated he was “absolutely convinced” that WMD’s existed even after our failure to find them in the wake of the invasion in March 2003.
•Nancy Pelosi, then a member of the House Intelligence Committee: "Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons-of-mass-destruction technology, which is a threat to countries in the region, and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
•In a letter to the newly elected President, George Bush, a number of Senators led by Bob Graham declared: "There is no doubt that . . . Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical, and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf war status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of an licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies."
•Senator Carl Levin also reaffirmed for Bush’s benefit what he had told Clinton some years earlier: "Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations, and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them."
•Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, speaking in October 2002: "In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical- and biological-weapons stock, his missile-delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al-Qaeda members."
•Senator Jay Rockefeller, vice chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee: "There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years. . . . We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction"
•Al Gore in September 2002: "We know that [Saddam] has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country." "Iraq’s search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter, and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
•John Kerry, in 2002: "I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force—if necessary—to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
Most ghastly of all, given the rhetoric that they would later employ against Bush after the invasion of Iraq, are statements made by Senators Ted Kennedy and Robert Byrd, also in 2002:
•Kennedy: "We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
•Byrd: "The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical- and biological-warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons."
Going forward I have no idea how much the war will be debated, at least it’s genesis. But do not allow yourself to be hoodwinked by the MSM or the Democratic Socialists that President Bush launched a war without cause, cooperation, or permission.
Iran is hopefully next on the menu.
Sourced from NYT, WaPo, Time, Washington Times, National Review, Norman Poderentz, and others.
Denial and a convenient memory loss trumps the Stockholm Syndrome every time.
One thing many Obama supporters fail to comprehend is that even if America actually were as they describe it, very rational victims of oppression can be hostile to a would-be savior – and for very good reason, especially when that would-be savior has a past record of abusive dirty tricks.
Out of the frying pan, into the fire.
George W. Bush is no saint. When he claims that illegal immigrants do work “Americans won’t do”, he demeans those American citizens who scrub toilets by implying they are un-American, just as Barack Obama demeans rural Americans. Yet, when it comes to illegal immigration, neither Hillary Clinton nor Barack Obama is an improvement over George W. Bush.
Far from healing America, Barack Obama is showing himself to be every bit as prejudiced and every bit as inclined to appeal to the worst emotions in the American electorate as any politician who has run for office in the United States. Some of Barack Obama’s supporters make the situation worse by equating hostility to Barack Obama with ignorance, intolerance, prejudice, and mental illness.
It is not ignorance to read his words and disagree with them. It is not intolerance to listen to his words and disagree with them. It is not prejudice to carefully read his personal history and be unimpressed. It is not mental illness to oppose Barack Obama’s campaign for the Presidency of the United States. Just as it would be wrong to immediately assume that support from college students for Barack Obama is an expression of the “Stockholm Syndrome” students feel toward leftist faculty on college campuses, it is wrong to equate opposition to Barack Obama with the “Stockholm Syndrome”.
The first step to healing our country is to respect our fellow citizens and not assume they suffer from brain damage merely because they may disagree. Whenever Obama supporters or his opponents equate dissent with brain damage, the result is a level of polarization reminiscent of the American Civil War. Is Barack Obama’s candidacy really worth the price of turning Americans into enemies of one another? Sadly, for some Obama supporters, the answer is yes.
Sourced from NYT, WaPo, Time, Washington Times, National Review, Norman Poderentz, and Possum Tater.
Habu, I updated your source reference for you....
I appreciate your attempts.
Joe.
Possumtater was a major force as my research assistant. He digs in those dumpsters and gets out the NYT, LA Times and all the other pubs he knows I won't buy. Then he uses his finely honed olfactory senses to posssum out the juicy tidbits. I owe him a great deal and I'm glad you corrected the oversight.
I was wondering just last week why he bit me on the ass and now I have the reason...how could I have been so heartless?
I just hope thats a yellow magic maker he's using to highlight the articles ..what are the odds?
Marcia Smith,
You must be knew to all this political stuff. I just re read you rant and it is a superb piece of freshman logic and understanding of what's what.
I could exhaust myself shredding it but instead you're simply going have to take social studies make up classes for the next six weeks
Your contribution was a hoot however.
Isn't all that terribly condescending on my part? I'll have Jimma Carter or Bill C apologize for me. They're in that business.
I now have the automatic urge to cuss whenever I here some leftist pol making a condescending and belittling nod toward gun ownership & hunting/shooting as some quaint folkway that ought to be preserved, much the same way some of the Inuit/Eskimo are allowed to hunt a whale once in a while under special permission.
It's not as if the individual right to bear arms has any particular relevance to the nation's very founding in the Revolution or anything...
The State of the Union sucks when a Barack Hussein Obama has gone this far in the Presidential election process. Regardless of any technical qualification, the guy isn't even American.
4/14/2008 08:57:00 AM
Them's my sentiments exactly. Though I'd throw in Hillary too. Though she qualifies as an American. I've never listened to so much drivel in my life, and I've listened to a lot.
You are right, I am new to this political banter. I am just an ordinary American by birth who works very hard every day and am tired of all the machinations of politics. I do not have a political science degree or am I able to debate with political scholars on what politician said or did what on any given date in history. Political analysts tell us how we feel or insultingly interpret speeches we have just heard and how we are going to react to them. Running this country has become a game to politicians. I am beginning to find little difference between Washington and Las Vegas. (The only difference is that casinos are operated better). It's not a game to the millions of ordinary Americans who are seeking change for the better. I just want a president who GIVES A DAMN about America, not the wealthy 1%. I want a president with enough sense to understand there is a reason why the polar ice caps are melting. I want a president who is willing to sit down and negotiate with others. I want a president who doesn't alienate our allies or the United Nations. I want a president that can simply answer a straight question without a script. I want a president who feels that America doesn't need to be a rogue nation, a threatening bully. I may not have the political sophistication to be glib about how corrupt much of washington is, but I know when the government has abandoned its people.
It is no secret that the majority, not all, Republicans stand for the status quo, big business, patriotic flag-waving wars, the NRA, elimination of immigration from non-white countries, and small town or elitist (we keep to our own kind) sensibilities. The Democrats, if we can only get our act together, stand for social change, social programs, the environment, the quality of life of people. The democratic ideal seems to be much maligned by the media to the point that just caring about social programs or justice, the elderly, children, etc. is given a negative spin. Realistically, big business (and their profits) have never helped the average person. Big business profits do not trickle down to paychecks or the average dinner table.
It is often asked if one would like to live in the ascendency or descendency of a civilization. American is too young to be where it is now. The quality of life of a civilization's people can only predict it's future. I will support Hillary if she wins the nomination, but I sincerely hope that Obama is the winner and can be able to get this country out of his mindless lethargy of spirit and absence of hope.
"It is no secret that the majority, not all, Republicans stand for the status quo, big business, patriotic flag-waving wars, the NRA, elimination of immigration from non-white countries, and small town or elitist (we keep to our own kind) sensibilities. "
---
I can't help it:
I'm a typical white person.
(from the typical right-wing rag, "The New Republic;")
Wright was a former Muslim and black nationalist who had studied at Howard and Chicago, and Trinity's guiding principles--what the church calls the "Black Value System"--included a "Disavowal of the Pursuit of 'Middleclassness.'"
New Republic: The Agitator -- Barack Obama's Unlikely Political Education
A Reverend Philips put the problem to him squarely when he learned that Obama didn't attend services. "It might help your mission if you had a church home," he told Obama. "It doesn't matter where, really. What you're asking from pastors requires us to set aside some of our more priestly concerns in favor of prophesy. That requires a good deal of faith on our part. It makes us want to know just where you're getting yours from."
After many lectures like this, Obama decided to take a second look at Wright's church. Older pastors warned him that Trinity was for "Buppies"--black urban professionals--and didn't have enough street cred. But Wright was a former Muslim and black nationalist who had studied at Howard and Chicago, and Trinity's guiding principles--what the church calls the "Black Value System"--included a "Disavowal of the Pursuit of 'Middleclassness.'"
The cross currents appealed to Obama. He came to believe that the church could not only compensate for the limitations of Alinsky-style organizing but could help answer the nagging identity problem he had come to Chicago to solve. "It was a powerful program, this cultural community," he wrote, "one more pliant than simple nationalism, more sustaining than my own brand of organizing.
• WBBM: Monkey Comment: Obama Delegate Not Quitting - UPDATE
Typical Hispanic/Pollack fined $75 for saying neighbor's kids were playing in the tree
"Like Monkeys"
Marcia,
Your lack of understanding the political process, not only in the USA now but going back to the beginnings of city states in Greece is tragic. It allows you to birth expectations that have never been and never will be.
If you had a better grounding you would be able to understand what is going on in the process, which today you can not do. You're an Obama supporter for reasons you can't explain on a policy level because he hasn't defined any of what his policies might be. There have been no policy papers outing what he would do with X,Y or Z. I suspect you like him because he's smooth and promises pie in the sky.
Well that's not good enough at the level he wants to play, and you as a citizen should be demanding he outline exactly what he intends.
One thing is becoming apparent to those who are able to tell a duck from a turkey and that is Obama is not what he's presenting himself to be. He is a poseur.
I read the litany of you wants as if they are being copied from Obama campaign literature.
The best advice I can give you , totally unsolicited, is simply go vote for him when you can but save your time trying to discuss issues in an arena that is out of your league. Unless you are a masochist and want to be ground up and cellophaned into submission. Start by going back to the post I addressed to you at 12:17 listing the comments made by the Democrats leadership regarding Saddam Hussein and come back and discuss that as a measure of how much more understanding etc the Dems are than those old greedy war mongering Reps.
Sarto said the Obama campaign was wrong to ask her to step down as a duly elected delegate to the Democratic National Convention in Denver.
---
75 Bucks and a kick in the teeth from the helpful, hopeful ones.
"It is no secret that the majority, not all, Republicans stand for the status quo, big business, patriotic flag-waving wars, the NRA, elimination of immigration from non-white countries, and small town or elitist (we keep to our own kind) sensibilities. "
I'm your typical white peckerwood republican, and I only stand for about half that stuff.
I stand against big government, confiscatory taxes, Vegas morality, and the Federal Migratory Game Bird Stamp.
Hillary's in a bind now.
Hillary's in a duck blind bind now.
marcia, thanks for that insight into the mind of the stereotypical guilty white 20-something Obama Girl.
Oh, you're not white?
Not 20-something?
Doesn't matter.
B. Hussein Obama, the white anthropologist's son, copulated with the canine when he dropped his mask and let the Fly Over Country Gorillas In The Mist in on what he thinks of them.
social change
social programs
the quality of life of people
social justice
translation - we are owed
perhaps some individuals simply possess no marketable skills or never learned a trade
keep waiting for the state to provide for your happiness and lifestyle
Stamp Act
I'm not really against the Stamp Act. I just said that. I am against the other things however. Betcha Hillary doesn't know what a duck stamp is.
economic justice...
is missing from the branded slogans list
I think they include that under 'social justice', elijah, but I'm not an insider.
Doug: Trinity's guiding principles--what the church calls the "Black Value System"--included a "Disavowal of the Pursuit of 'Middleclassness.'"
That's perfect, because Bush has delivered middleclassness that greatly sucks. The typical family health insurance premium is now $11,480 a year compared with $6,348 in 2000. Gas prices are over $3 a gallon, and diesel over $4 which translates to higher food costs. At the same time, median weekly earnings have risen only 0.9 percent between 2000 and 2006 compared with 7.1 percent growth between 1996 and 2000 under the Clinton Administration.
Could we have a link for that Health-Insurance figure and the median weekly?
bobal said...
Hillary's in a bind now.
Hillary's in a duck blind bind now.
4/14/2008 04:33:00 PM
Hillary's in a blind, now DUCK!
"I guess the big mystery for me is whether Barack is still a man of the Left."
Wretchard:
The thing that I take from the "Bitter/Cling" remarks, and the "Greatest Speech Ever Given" (a/k/a "Let's See If We Can Cover Jeremiah Wright With a Steaming Pile of Bull Pucky")is that He Who Must Not Be Middled Named has no mental equipment that does not derive from Marxism.
He may be completely devoid of principals, but he will instinctively understand the things that happen through Marxist lenses. It does not bode well for him being President.
Fortunately, HWMNBMN will never be President of the United States of America. It won't happen. Not ever. No way.
Hillary ducked, but was shot in the behind, from Cheney's blind.
How unkind.
Remember that shocking piece by Spengler, suggesting that Obama's mother and his wife are keys to understanding his feelings toward America?
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/JB26Aa01.html
Some of the assertions Spengler made seemed quite speculative to me at the time. But since the piece was written, we have had the big Reverend Wright issue and more disturbing comments by Michelle Obama. And now Barak Obama has been taped speaking about small-town Americans, bitter over economic issues, in exactly the way I would expect from a Marxist antropologist. Spengler seems more and more insightful as this campaign progresses.
On the other hand, Mark Steyn observed at about the time of the Spengler piece that Obama's air of detachment was reminiscent of JFK. Coold Obama be deliberately taking on the mannerisms of JFK, like Michelle Obama wears Peter Pan collars to evoke images of Jackie?
Do you think the mask will ever come off and stay off?
"No surprise there. McCain will do the same, as will Clinton. You don't get to the top of this high stakes game otherwise."
Sure. Just look at what happened to Thompson. He didn't have "fire in the belly", ie. he wasn't a total prick with an utter lust for power. Thus, he was not suited to be president. QED.
Habu: To this point, I have not purposely treated anyone on this blog with disrespect, I have simply stated how I feel. You say I sound like Obama campaign literature. Hell no! This is how I feel and you better believe it's how much of the working population feels. If I wandered into a closed blog where only a few feel they have the political sophistication to respond on any issue and outsiders are dumped on, then you can have this blog to yourself and to your closed opinions. I am sorry, but the present administration is neither of, for or by the people, they never have been. We have a president who lies, smirks and generally is apathetic to anything but his own personal agenda. Hillary's dirty campaign reflects the same dirty politics as usual attitude in Washington. I WANT A CHANGE FOR THE BETTER before the country implodes on its hatred and fear. Anyone sitting in their mother's basement getting their satisfaction by dumping on the opinions of others whether you consider them uneducated or not is your right, but does not make you intellectually or morally superior.
Habu: To this point, I have not purposely treated anyone on this blog with disrespect, I have simply stated how I feel. You say I sound like Obama campaign literature. Hell no! This is how I feel and you better believe it's how much of the working population feels. If I wandered into a closed blog where only a few feel they have the political sophistication to respond on any issue and outsiders are dumped on, then you can have this blog to yourself and to your closed opinions. I am sorry, but the present administration is neither of, for or by the people, they never have been. We have a president who lies, smirks and generally is apathetic to anything but his own personal agenda. Hillary's dirty campaign reflects the same dirty politics as usual attitude in Washington. I WANT A CHANGE FOR THE BETTER before the country implodes on its hatred and fear. Anyone sitting in their mother's basement getting their satisfaction by dumping on the opinions of others whether you consider them uneducated or not is your right, but does not make you intellectually or morally superior.
marcia smith,
you are rapidly proving yourself to be a troll as, to this point, you have been treated with the utmost respect and deferrence.
Answer the man's questions, or go away.
aenea,
since Pres. Clinton handed the current administration a crashing stock market and an economy tipping into recession, isn't it a bit disingenuous to point to the cyclically due rally that was the middle to late 90's and claim the Dem's under Pres. Bill were wonder workers?
I'll grant you that an irrational fear of recession and the peaking of a natural 70 year cycle of debt financing provided the fertile ground for putting in place the final conditions for the housing bubble (stupidly low interest rates and ridiculous tax breaks), but if you are going to tell me with a straight face that in 2002 (or '03, or '04) a Dem president would've told Greenspan to hit the brakes harder and the American people to just suck it up and take their medicine (a well-deserved-after-a-record-run-without-one recession), I say BS. The myopia in this country is so bad, we can't see 5 years in the rear view mirror.
Another way to look at it is that no-one has done more to share the wealth of America with the rest of the world than GWB. He should be the hero of the Left. That that giveaway would come at the expense of the American public was a foregone conclusion (we had nowhere to go but down.) To give the credit for that to one man, though, is far too generous, making you more of believer in his greatness than any mere Republican.
Some folks need to be reminded that the attack of 11 September 2001 came at a time when a number of appointments by Bush to fill critical administrative posts were being deliberately delayed and obstructed by Democrats who were still holding their collective breath and stamping their wittle feet, whinging that Bush and the U.S. Supreme Court had "Stolen" the 2000 election. Even the Leftward-hurtling New York Times has had to grudgingly acknowledge that EVERY SINGLE RECOUNT conducted by the Democrats controlling the Florida electoral procedures gave the victory to BUSH, no matter how they attempted to distort and massage the rules, EVEN attempting to challenge and invalidate every single absentee military ballot.
Lowlife miserable miscreants.
A few other good things to recall:
The White House staff of the Clinton's had vandalized the place while decamping, which helped delay discovery that the Empress Dowager Hillary had absconded with the silverware and tea service. On the final day of his administration, President Can't-govern-his-own-willie had issued ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY PARDONS and several commutations to a throng of convicted felons, who seem to have purchased those pardons pretty brazenly.
This doesn't even included the multiple pardons he had granted to the convicted Puerto Rican terrorist murderers just days before the Senatorial election in which she was not doing so well. Whether or not the Puerto Ricans in New York were expressing their gratitude by voting for Hillary isn't so important as our PRESIDENT showed unambiguously how seriously he regarded the issue of terrorism in pardoning convicted terrorists for such craven political purpose.
The so-called "budget surplus" the Clinton administration proclaimed was NEVER anything more than a sleight-of-hand jiggering of projected revenues and expenses.
Phooey.
I'm going to go watch "Red Dawn."
gdude: From the Troll: Whoa, hit a nerve did I with the mother's basement. "Gdude? You name call like a 14 year old. It's a blessing that you'll never know who you are calling a troll. Why doesn't this blog just call itself the Aryan Nation Review and warn off all new responders of what it stand for up front. No Obama supporters welcome. Maybe Hillary as she is a pseudo-republican anyway. Hope is also not welcome. This is not an open forum. It is evident that this is a republican support site and no varying opinions will be tolerated. I will get the word out for you for rational people to stay clear of this site. So you are all welcome to talk amongst yourself.
The Democrats, if we can only get our act together, stand for social change, social programs, the environment, the quality of life of people.
Really? It certainly doesn’t sound like the Democrats in my state. Environment? It’s hard to keep myself from laughing. What I see is more pollution, more ethanol, more pork barrel farm bill spending for rich people, and more high fructose corn syrup. Quality of life? Through the power of positive condescension, perhaps?
By the way, if a man looks like an Anglo, is a man of steel, is faster than a speeding bullet, and comes from the planet Krypton, he is still an illegal immigrant who should have gone through customs and is not supposed to be here.
Ms. Smith:
You are showing yourself to be a rude bigot. Your propensity to resort to crude insults is reminiscent of the late Ralph Engelstad.
Obama supporters are welcome. Unlike you, many Obama supporters are nice people. Unlike you, many Obama supporters are capable of respecting people who they disagree with. Unlike you, many Obama supporters are not narrow-minded jerks who demonize their opponents. Don’t expect other people to fall into line merely because you tell them what to believe.
Ms. Smith, if your behavior here is how you generally treat other people, you are lucky if anybody likes you. It is reasonably clear that you are full of hate. Don’t assume that other people as hateful as the person you see when you look in mirror.
It is no secret that the majority, not all, Republicans stand for the status quo, big business, patriotic flag-waving wars, the NRA, elimination of immigration from non-white countries, and small town or elitist (we keep to our own kind) sensibilities. - Marcia Smith
I don't even know where to start with this. The majority of Republicans are for war? You're out of your mind. None of us WANT war. The majority of Republicans won't shrink from the idea that it's necessary some times, to protect that standard of life you claim the Democrats want to improve.
Your comments on immigration show your true opinion, that Republicans are racist. What a hypocritical standpoint to carry around, since to think in that matter displays the same sort of discrimination you're accusing Republicans of. We don't care what the country of origin (or skin color) of an illegal immigrant is. . .he or she is an illegal immigrant regardless, and shouldn't have access to social programs paid for by the US taxpayer until he or she has gained legal status. PERIOD.
The Democrats, if we can only get our act together, stand for social change, social programs, the environment, the quality of life of people. - Marcia Smith
Are those social changes actually beneficial to the average American? Really? Universal healthcare is an example of such a proposed 'social change'. The cost of such a program, over the next 8 years, could top $850 billion. Where will that come from? Us. Our wallets. And will it provide better health care for most Americans? Well, we have the Veterans' Hospital example of how well government run health care works on a small scale. . .gee, won't it be great when it works that well on a larger scale too?!? Sorry if I'm dripping sarcasm here. . .point is that change for its own sake is NOT A GOOD THING. It must be well reasoned and beneficial change, inacted in such a way that it doesn't harm more than it helps.
I hear a lot of pontification about 'change' from the left, but when I get into a discussion of the shape that 'change' will take, I always seem to find that there's much about the specific proposals of our Democratic legislators and candidates that the left doesn't seem to have thought about.
To see you degrade from your earlier idealistic comments into name calling. . .well it's kinda sad. Your entire last comment is exactly what it has been called by others here. . .troll-like.
Lastly, I'd like to point out a particular statement you made:
"America is too young to be where it is now." - Marcia Smith
You do realize, don't you, that our government is now one of the more long-lived continuous forms of government in the history of civilization?
If you'd like to discuss particular social policies Obama has proposed, note them. However, your comments thus far lead me to doubt that you've thought that deeply on the matter. Instead, (again as others have noted here), you have brought nothing to the discussion but Democratic party boilerplate.
We have liberals and conservatives here who contribute meaningful commentary on a daily basis. Sure we agree, but are civil in this discourse. You repeat nothing but the party-line, and provide no real grist for the discussion mill. It's transparent, and the people here are ALL smart enough to call you on it every time you do it.
Correction. . .in my last comment, it should have said:
". . .sure we disagree. . ."
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