Monday, June 05, 2006

Baghdad Again, Part 2

Islamists threaten Baghdad. Will Maliki respond?

Pajamas Media has a roundup of reports indicating that Islamists, perhaps of the Shi'ite persuasion, are imposing their codes on sections of Baghdad. Healing Iraq says:

Baghdadis are reporting that radical Islamists have taken control over the Dora, Amiriya and Ghazaliya districts of Baghdad, where they operate in broad daylight. They have near full control of Saidiya, Jihad, Jami’a, Khadhraa’ and Adil. And their area of influence has spread over the last few weeks to Mansour, Yarmouk, Harthiya, and very recently, to Adhamiya.

All of these districts, with the exception of Adhamiya, are more or less mixed or Sunni majority areas. They make up the western part of the capital, or what is known as the Karkh sector (the eastern half of Baghdad is called Rusafa). These areas also witnessed an influx of families displaced by the violence in the Anbar governorate, since many residents of the western part of Baghdad have roots in western areas of the country, such as Fallujah and Ramadi.

Iraq the Model notes:

People who follow the news frequently enough here in Baghdad know that a big security operation is coming and hearing several tough statements from Iraq's PM Maliki makes one anticipate this operation to be coming sooner rather than later and that it's going to deal with both wings of violence in Baghdad; the al-Qaeda terrorism (and allied local Sunni insurgency) and the out-of-control armed Shia militias.

53 Comments:

Blogger desert rat said...

So these seem to be Sunni Islamists, from my reading of "Healing Iraq". That they are consolidating in their own neighborhoods?
Or are these Islamists foreigners, trying to fill a void, in the Sunni areas? The description indicates these Islamists have come in with the refugees from Anbar. But hard to tell, exactly.
No mention of out of control Shia Militias, at all.

"Iraq the Model"
" the al-Qaeda terrorism (and allied local Sunni insurgency) and the out-of-control armed Shia militias."

The Shia seem to figure large in the Model's mind. Wonder if he knows who killed his relative, yet.
Or are there just the usual suspects.

6/05/2006 02:28:00 PM  
Blogger sirius_sir said...

People who follow the news frequently enough here in Baghdad know that a big security operation is coming... and that it's going to deal with both wings of violence in Baghdad; the al-Qaeda terrorism (and allied local Sunni insurgency) and the out-of-control armed Shia militias.

About time. And since some are so worried about the increase in U.S. 'mistakes', and since the PM himself says those elected "are responsible for protecting the Iraqi people," do we dare presume that Iraqi forces will take the lead in this endeavour?

I'm sorry if I sound a little impatient myself, but I'm thinking maybe it's also time for Maliki to put up or shut up.

6/05/2006 02:35:00 PM  
Blogger 2164th said...

Of course I am shocked and dismayed that the Islamists are doing what Islamists do best. I thought there may be a problem when I saw they celebrate 'Holy Days of Obligation" flagellating themselves with bicycle chains. I hate to be culturally insensitive but it is well past time to accept Iraq for what it is and not expect it to be what is never going to happen. If this keeps going the way it appears, Saddam may be in line for a Nobel Peace Prize. Wake me up if GWB buys a beagle and picks him up by the ears. ( I apologize to those under 45, that may miss the meaning of that, but I need a drink>)

6/05/2006 02:47:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

He said the US troops
"... " do not respect the citizens, some of whom have been crushed by tanks and others shot. We must speak with them and fix a definition of the obligations of foreign forces" ..."

We're obligated to Iraq and Mr Maliki, you betcha.

Whose son should die to fulfill these US obligations to Mr Maliki?
Who should volunteer, if not Iraqi mothers?

US obligations have been paid, in full, thank you.

Let US watch the ISF in action.
Get to see what two years of US training is really worth.

6/05/2006 02:56:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

"..."There is a limit to the acceptable excuses. Yes a mistake may happen but there is an acceptable limit to mistakes," Nuri al-Maliki told Reuters when asked about a U.S. investigation into the deaths of 24 Iraqis in the western town last November.

"We are worried about the increase in 'mistakes'. I am not saying that they are intentional. But it is worrying for us," he said in an interview in his offices in Baghdad. ..."


We ought to let the Iraqis step out on their own, now.
They need to clear those neighborhoods and secure Route Irish at the same time.

I won't hold my breath, waiting for the Shia Militias to disarm, though.

White House spokesman Tony Snow said the Defense Department was investigating the incident and that he had been assured that "when this comes out, all the details will be made available to the public, so we'll have a picture of what happened." ..."

Taking those pictures drove a Marine Lance Corporal to drink, and auto theft, he says.

6/05/2006 03:07:00 PM  
Blogger Bon Air said...

Where is the tipping point? When do these people say enough is enough. When do they get to the point where they refuse to allow these loons to take over their neighborhoods?

I hope Omar is right. I hope there is a big security operation coming. Iraq needs it We need it. It makes sense why the positions dealing with security haven't been filled if this operation is known.

6/05/2006 03:13:00 PM  
Blogger 2164th said...

They must be euphoric in Teheran. Oil at $73 a barrel and the US tied in knots with this diplomatic and strategic folly. And your earlier point Rat about asking more men to die and be maimed to continue this epic mistake.

6/05/2006 03:15:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

General Casey said that Baghdad was going to be secured, along with 9 other cities, after the Government to power. He said it a couple of weeks, maybe a month, ago.

The Minister seats are unfilled because the DAWA and SCIRI will not budge on their no baathist pledge, even a little. Also I doubt they want a Sunni of any sort in the Chain of Command, any time soon. The Prime Minister direct suits them fine.

Would depend alot on what Mr Maliki's real Goals are.

6/05/2006 03:20:00 PM  
Blogger sirius_sir said...

I wouldn't feel such impatience if I thought our efforts 'over there' were being appreciated. But I'm increasingly getting the feeling that our military's presence is required, but not entirely wanted, by the government and people they serve.

Whichever government and people that may be.

6/05/2006 03:23:00 PM  
Blogger Cannoneer No. 4 said...

On Behalf of Ungrateful Nations from BUCK SARGENT

6/05/2006 03:40:00 PM  
Blogger 2164th said...

It comes down to some basic decisions. Do you believe the Iraqi people want us there and will our presence help them to become a stable democracy? Do you believe it may have been a mistake and it is time to cut our losses? Is GWB, a Kenneth Lay or is he a Warren Buffett?
Finally do you go short or long on this market?

6/05/2006 03:41:00 PM  
Blogger Cannoneer No. 4 said...

For minister of defense, currently held ad interim by Salam al-Zouba'i, the rumor mills have focused on several possible candidates



@ Maj. Gen. Nabil Khalil al-Said, a native of Mosul, who currently runs a bureau in the Ministry of Defense.



@ Nuri al-Dulemi, a former general currently living in the UAE



@ Baraa Najeeb al-Rubaie, a former brigadier general who had been a critic of Saddam Hussein's invasion of Kuwait in 1990, and suffered the consequences of being right. In 1991 he fled Iraq and joined Iyad Allawi's anti-Saddam organization.



@ General Abdul Qader, currently commander of Iraq's ground forces..



@ Thamer Sultan al-Tikriti, a retired general who was imprisoned under the old regime and whose brother was executed by Saddam Hussein.



All of the candidates have apparently had interviews with President Jalal Talabani, the Prime Minister, and other senior officials, including, apparently, U.S. Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad. Most of their military careers were spent serving in Saddam Hussein's army, but all appear to have been sufficiently professional and apolitical enough to satisfy the demands of deBaathification. In keeping with the need to provide religious and ethnic balance, all of them are secular Sunni Moslems, and al-Tikriti has the added advantage of coming from Saddam Hussein's home province.



For Minister of the Interior, the rumors have been focused on Nasser Daham Fahad Al Amri, a retired Shi'ite Army officer, apparently regarded in American circles as the best bet, as well as Mowaffak al-Rubaie, who had been national security adviser, and Tawfeeq al-Yassir, a former brigadier general during the Saddam Hussein era who served in the transitional government's security.

6/05/2006 03:46:00 PM  
Blogger Cannoneer No. 4 said...

2164th,

The answers to those questions will depend on who you have been listening to.

Those who think they are defeated, are.

6/05/2006 03:48:00 PM  
Blogger sirius_sir said...

2164th,

We stay--but only if we are wanted. (It wouldn't hurt any if Maliki, et al, made the desire for our continued help explicit.)

And we don't stick our necks out any more than absolutely necessary. (Which means our forces take an increasingly lesser role in maintaining security and, unfortunately for them, Iraqi forces very soon assume the predominate role.)

6/05/2006 03:52:00 PM  
Blogger 2164th said...

Canoneer,

Man I respect you and admire your tenacity, but it is a scary thing when you ask men to fight and die for something. You better be damn sure the trade is worth it. If you look at Iraq, I have increasing doubts. That is not defeatism. It is not fear. American fighting men should never be compromised by the decisions of anyone other than American elected or appointed leadership. They should never be spent on any cause other than for the security of The US. That is the gold standard for me. When in doubt I ask the hard question. Would I do it or ask my son or grand sons to do it?

6/05/2006 04:05:00 PM  
Blogger Annoy Mouse said...

I had hoped that the US would evolve into a heavy fisted strike for, garrisoned for security, only to emerge to wreak havoc on those who needed combined forces of armor, air, and artillery. Exposing our troops to police action at this point is both pointless and cruel. We have succeeded in ousting Saddam and creating a self standing government, both malignant and intractable. Mission accomplished. Sayonara Ahkmed.

6/05/2006 04:13:00 PM  
Blogger Cannoneer No. 4 said...

Think about where your doubt originates. Evaluate the reliability and bias of the sources of information you are using to judge this war.

I'd do it, if they'd let me. So far I only get to stay inside the wire and wish them good luck on the way out.

6/05/2006 04:17:00 PM  
Blogger Reocon said...

desert rat said...

"We're obligated to Iraq and Mr Maliki, you betcha.

Whose son should die to fulfill these US obligations to Mr Maliki?
Who should volunteer, if not Iraqi mothers?

US obligations have been paid, in full, thank you."

If only that were the case. Iraqi sovereignty is but a joke and the state, caught between warring factions, barely exists. If Iraq was a sovereign state, then some members of Kilo company, 3rd Battalion, would be facing trial for war crimes in an Iraqi court. Isn't that what any truly sovereign state would demand? We did not send General Pershing after Pancho Villa to have the Bandit King tried in a Mexican court. I'm not saying that an Iraqi court would be a just or desirable venue for determining the truth, only that a US military court martial puts the lie, once more, to the myth of an independent Iraq.

It galls me to say it, but Colin Powell's "pottery barn" rule now sounds as ugly as it was prophetic: we broke it and now it's ours. To walk away from Iraq will appear a victory to Islamists ranging from Zarqawi to Sadr. That said, I don't believe we have neither the old "Fordist" bureaucratic capacity nor the will to commit the resources to stabilize the country. For this I blame Rumsfeld.

Wretchard's analyses a few weeks ago of the "failing" Anbar insurgency were far too optimistic, and to truly tame Anbar, Baghdad, and Basra will require more US troops at a time when the fledgling Iraqi government is castigating them more and more. How did we arrive at this miserable position?

"Bon Air said...
Where is the tipping point? When do these people say enough is enough. When do they get to the point where they refuse to allow these loons to take over their neighborhoods?"

Were is the tipping point in the Congo? What happened to the communal spirit in the neighborhoods of Kinshasa? It takes a long time to find the floor in Hell.

6/05/2006 04:35:00 PM  
Blogger sirius_sir said...

Exposing our troops to police action at this point is both pointless and cruel.

Agreed.

I had hoped that the US would evolve into a heavy fisted strike force, garrisoned for security, only to emerge to wreak havoc on those who needed combined forces of armor, air, and artillery

That could still be the case, if our government stipulated to it, and the Iraqi government requested it.

No reason we shouldn't stay and fight, but if we do, we should fight to kill, eradicate, extinguish. No more patroling the streets waiting to be ambushed.

6/05/2006 04:36:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

THe other, more prevelant rumor, according to Iraq the Model, is a Saddam Lite General will pick the Defense Minister, or Mr Allawi may.

But then that's what rumors are.
Fantasies and projections.

My son, VDH, Mr Bush, Mr Cheney, Mr Rumsfeld, Ralph Peters, Mr Yon, wretchard, General Casey, Col Happersat, Mr Sistani and Mr Maliki, to name just the ones on the tip of my tongue, have all been instrumental in developing my outlook on the Iraqi theater of Operations.

Which authority is to be denied?

6/05/2006 04:36:00 PM  
Blogger Reocon said...

"Cannoneer No. 4 said...
The answers to those questions will depend on who you have been listening to.

Those who think they are defeated, are."


Oh really? Then I'm sure that you'll extend the logic and argue that the reverse is also true, that "Those who think we've won . . . are victorious"?!

Does the Fourth Canoneer claim that the "mission has been accomplished", that the insurgency has been in its "last throes" for the past year, that all the proclaimations of "victory" after Shiite Theocratic parties siezed control of the invidious Iraqi state are correct? If so, then I guess we can go home. Problem solved. Mission accomplished.

6/05/2006 04:44:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

reocon
In almost all situations the Military tries it's own.
We never "handed 'em over" in Korea or Panama.

Never.
Rape, murder, made no difference. The natives didn't get 'em.

That is the comment of the Brit officer in this UK Telegraph story that was linked to earlier.
"... One of the main changes to military law will be the withdrawal of a commanding officer's historic powers to dismiss investigation into serious allegations such as murder.

Lord Boyce warned that "tampering" with the military chain of command could damage operational effectiveness.

"If you diminish a commanding officer's authority or start to erode his authority you will have a fracture which is ultimately going to cause failure," he said.

Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup said it was essential that actions taken by soldiers in the heat of battle were judged in context, "not as if they are walking down Watford High Street". ..."


British, not US.

6/05/2006 04:47:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_1 said...

We just need one more Iraqi in one more important position and everything will fall into place.
This man will have great powers to pursuade all factions that one more electric generator is all that is needed.
We just need to find this man and place him in the perfect position.

Let's just level the place and take the oil.

6/05/2006 04:52:00 PM  
Blogger Nathan said...

Reocon,

The transpose of Cannoneer's argument is that "Those who do not believe they have been defeated, are not." I am sure you have heard some form of this before.

6/05/2006 05:21:00 PM  
Blogger Cannoneer No. 4 said...

reocon,

You never played any team sports when you were younger, did you?

6/05/2006 05:22:00 PM  
Blogger Reocon said...

desert rat said...
"reocon
In almost all situations the Military tries it's own.
We never "handed 'em over" in Korea or Panama."

True that. The impelling word is "we", a royal we actually, that denotes our status as hegemon. Our sovereignty extends across the globe, whether the Iraqi people care for it or not. No ICC for us, for we exercise our power in a peculiarly virtuous manner. If only the Iraqi people could be made to understand this, no?

6/05/2006 05:25:00 PM  
Blogger Cannoneer No. 4 said...

rat,

Deny the ones who are causing your clinical depression.

6/05/2006 05:30:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Now you're gettin' it, reocon

Had a Panamanian friend, hated the US, it stood for all that was wrong with the world. I'd laugh and call him a fool.

He was off to Havana, for the first time, artist, poet, street performer that he was he "just knew" it'd be Grand.

Saw him when he came back, reality had set him straight. He did not love US, but he laughed at his old "beliefs". He was not so enthralled with "equality of outcome" once he'd seen it.

Moral being, bad as we may be thought to be, the next step down is a lulu.

6/05/2006 05:34:00 PM  
Blogger Smacko said...

Sirius,

Sorry your so impatient. It might help actually reading the article you linked to.

Maliki said last week he believed Iraqi forces could be in overall control of its entire territory within 18 months, although U.S. and other troops are expected to remain to provide emergency firepower for some considerable time beyond that.

Of course DR will be upset that they are not kicking us out at the end of the year. Not cause he cares, but it would ruin one of his favorite talking points.

As well:

http://tinyurl.com/e5vo4

Looks like a majority of the provinces already have ISF in the lead.

Which I am sure will not put any damper on DR's '8 cities OMG it's been two weeks OMFG' talking point.

And to boot, what in the world is wrong with Malik being "worried" about "mistakes" that are causing civilian deaths?

Such harsh translations Siruis, DR, and Reocon use for the words "worried" and "mistake".

"Take him out back and shoot him. STAT. He worried!!!!!"

6/05/2006 05:35:00 PM  
Blogger Reocon said...

Nathan said...
"Reocon,

The transpose of Cannoneer's argument is that "Those who do not believe they have been defeated, are not." I am sure you have heard some form of this before."

Oh yes, but I've also known of those who did not accept defeat but clearly were. They struggled on, raging against a fate that had already been decided. Belief alone will not carry the day, and certain beliefs that for too long defy the obvious are known as delusion. I've had enough relatives in the Seventh Day Adventist Church to be familiar with this phenomenon. I hope we have ceased deluding ourselves with a rhetoric of "last throes", "mission accomplished" and "victory".

"Cannoneer No. 4 said...
reocon,

You never played any team sports when you were younger, did you? "

Baseball. I wish my knees were still young enough for baseball. Well, knees, wrist and shoulders.

6/05/2006 05:36:00 PM  
Blogger Cannoneer No. 4 said...

Kitty Hawk sailor gets life term for killing Japanese woman

Most SOFA prisoners are sent to Yokosuka Prison in Kurihama, outside Tokyo. Five Navy personnel are there now; none with a life sentence, Wallach said.

6/05/2006 05:36:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

That'd be Mr Bush and Mr Cheney.

Mr Bush, he is to long between word and action to leave me less than depressed

Mr Cheney is not to be trusted around firearms. He should not mix bee, drugs and firearms. Evertone knows that. If he has forgotten or thought weapons safety below his station, he was obviously wrong.

That and we just do not know who the Insurgents are, at least in Ramadi, rest assured the Insurgency is on it's last legs though.

That light up ahead, is it the end of the tunnel, oh no, it's the Iranian Cannonball Cascade!

6/05/2006 05:40:00 PM  
Blogger 2164th said...

Given the choice between a virtuous execution of power and the vicious execution, I would prefer the latter. I base this belief on the expectation of not having to do either very often if using the vicious version when called upon was the recognized preferred method.

6/05/2006 05:41:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Well, there it is, not all countries and/ or criminals are treated equally.

It'd be bad to be in a Japanese prison for killin' a Japanese lady, I'd bet. Worse than Leavenworth, I'd wager.

6/05/2006 05:44:00 PM  
Blogger Cannoneer No. 4 said...

Well, reocon, by your standards Washington should have accepted defeat at Brandywine and given up.

6/05/2006 05:53:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

24 steps to liberty says it Sunni Islamists causing the ruckus.

Baghdad Connect says
Rumor (or insinuating rumor!) "unidentified Mujahideen".
So more Sunni.

Iraqi Screen
if you tour Baghdad’s neighborhoods, you will find 90% of them are blocked by trees trunks, barrels and big stones and men are guarding them with their private guns and they are always in a state of alert to confront death squads in case they storm their neighborhoods, snatch some people and then their bodies would be found in the trash.

Where date palms grow
Now in the Golden age “Post April 2003” you should see that same street, concrete barriers, so cars would slow down, 99.9% of the shops shut due to terrorist threats, not even barber shops.

On Sunday the whole street was filled with threat notices posted by the “Honorable Resistance” AKA “Zarqawi’s” its main subjects are:


Now it seems the naming of the Enemy is even more confused.

6/05/2006 05:58:00 PM  
Blogger Annoy Mouse said...

Mindless defeatism is most insidious for a capable nation. It seems to be an underlying principle of present European spinelessness. Conversely, irrational exuberance seems to be the governing principle of Iran and their aspiring nuclear counterparts in NorK. Whereas the Europeans are hamstrung by the inertia of socialist ideology, the evil axis have found enabling in the friends of democratic chaos. The US had a legal basis to remove Saddam and a moral responsibility to leave Iraq whole enough not to be a threat to our allies in Turkey, Jordan and, to a lesser extent, Saudi Arabia. We have fulfilled that commitment as far as we can. We should remain in so much as our further presence is at the behest of an Iraqi government that we condone and not become instruments to further the aims of radical Shiism. The US spent nearly nine years in Bosnia but it would have been nine years too long if they were constantly being picked off by roadside bombs.

6/05/2006 06:06:00 PM  
Blogger 2164th said...

Annoy mouse said:
"The US spent nearly nine years in Bosnia but it would have been nine years too long if they were constantly being picked off by roadside bombs."

The problem there is that if you left because of road side bombs, you would be guaranteed roadside bombs no matter where you went. I would not be surprised if the logic behind Hiaditha was that young troopers were developing their own strategy to bring accountability to those that passively supported the IED users. Effective, but brutal by today's enlightened standards.

6/05/2006 06:19:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

To me, it appears that the great strategic mistake was when we disbanded the police, army, and most civil administrators with the De-Ba'athification Decision.

We lacked the troop levels needed to prevent anarchy as all the Iraqi mechanisms of order were destroyed by us. The Kurds were shielded, I think, because we had carefully set up administrators and Pesh Merga up North.

But for the rest of the country, we threw Miracle-Gro fertilizer on nascent militias of both the Sunni and the Shia.

Now they are entrenched, and both sides are coming out in force to kill based only on religion. So far just men and boys older than 15...Daily. A bus comes up to a checkpoint, the Shiites are removed from the bus and dispatched by a round to the back of the head. Sunnis are picked off by death squads as well.

Our time in our Excellent Iraq Venture with the "Noble, Purpled-Fingered, Freedom-Loving, Democracy-Hungry Folks" appears to be drawing to a time where we pull the plug.

Then watch a Shiite Islamist state eventually emerge after some necessary ethnic cleansing, which gives the Kurds autonomy.

It is not a good thing to gamble and lose. If full militia war breaks out, at a minimum, Rumsfeld needs to go. (Though we might find out after he goes that he was closer to Powell and not enthusiastic about a major war that would undermine his Transformation, but got out-clouted by the neocons)

If things go sour, I hope we don't kill hundreds of US troops trying to fight both the Sunni and Shiite militias, but instead the US forces withdraw to wait in remote bases. A pity given we borrowed 300 billion from China, France, the Saudis, and Japan to do this and keep the tax cuts for the wealthy going - and 20,000 casualties - but why throw more good after bad if Iraq totally goes to hell?? Besides, all of the Bush "Coalition of the Willing" but Britain plan to be out by the end of 2006, and Labour has all but guaranteed to the British public that they would be significantly cutting back troops.

2164th - Poor LBJ! Like LBJ, Bush's base is fracturing. Not so much over the war but on issues of immigration, entitlements, reckless spending, questions about his competence, and a sense Bush favors the Ruling Class Elitists over rank and file conservatives. LBJ was smarter than Presidente Jorge.

I expect if Bush does the ear pulling stunt, it will be compassionately but dumbly pulling up by his ears, to pin the purple heart on - a soldier who had arms and legs blasted off by an IED in some crappy little village the US lacks the manpower to take and hold

6/05/2006 06:22:00 PM  
Blogger Papa Ray said...

Here is but one of the images being sent around the world decipting the relationship between the U.S. Military and the Iraqi's.

Concerning getting rid of the death squads (and other bad guys) in the Capitol:

You could surround the entire city, where a mouse could not get out with our troops with enough IA and Police to capture the bad guys as they tried to escape.

Then you could send in the rest of the IA and Iraqi police and for backup 200,000 more American troops (who now are almost afraid to point their weapon at anyone, let alone shoot them).

You then could run this operation (lets call it "Operation kill them or Imprison them") for six months, day and night.

Then you could call it a successful operation.

It wouldn't be.

Half of the bad guys would get away, or join in with the IA or Police and wait for another day.

Meanwhile, in other cities, the same bad guys with a lot of new help would be taking over those cities.

What is that saying?

Wash, rinse...repeat?

Again and again and again...

For just how long?

Papa Ray
West Texas
USA

6/05/2006 06:26:00 PM  
Blogger sirius_sir said...

Smacko,

I read the linked-to article. I even quoted from it, so I'm perplexed by your confusion.

Interesting that you have no problem with Maliki's impatience, and yet castigate me for mine, inasmuch mine comes as a direct result of Maliki's reactions, er worry, caused by our efforts, I mean mistakes, made in a good-faith effort to help him.

Oh well.

Do you at all get that he seems more 'worried' about U.S. reactions than the actions that initiated them? Do you get that he seems--oh, I don't know--more than a little accusatory and somewhat less than grateful for the sacrifices our forces are making on his behalf?

I understand he has to be diplomatic to the population(s) he represents, but what would be wrong with his extending a little diplomacy our way and, at the very least, suggesting we are trying our best under difficult circumstances to do a job his own security forces are apparently not quite yet capable of doing?

Rest assured, I'm every bit as 'worried' as Mr Maliki is about the circumstances surrounding the incident he is addressing. The difference is, I'm willing to give our guys the benefit of some doubt at least until the facts are in.

And if the worst proves true, I'm quite sure these mistakes, whatever they were, will be addressed by our military court. But I have to ask if it might not also be a 'mistake' for the PM to inflame sentiment against us. Or do you think his words have no possible correlation in that regard?

Yes, I'm impatient, but not of the timeline given in the article. I'm impatient with those elected "who are responsible for protecting the Iraqi people" who nonetheless gladly continue themselves to be protected by the U.S. while conveying little appreciation--indeed, barely offering any acknowlegement--of our continued effort and sacrifice.

6/05/2006 06:37:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

This pieece via the Timesonline, of London.
"... IN SATURDAY’S Times there was a perceptive and important article from Gerard Baker on the American reaction to reports of the massacre at al-Haditha. His conclusion was that “there is a gathering sense that the outrages of al-Haditha and elsewhere are not just simply isolated examples of bad behaviour but the almost inevitable consequence of deploying the US military to a task for which it is ill-equipped and poorly trained — policing and pacifying an alien people”.
Baker backed this with a telling quotation from Foreign Affairs, the specialist magazine of the foreign policy community. The article was published in 2000, before 9/11 had changed American thinking. “The President must remember that the military is a special instrument. It is lethal, and it is meant to be. It is not a civilian police force. And it is most certainly not designed to build a civilian society.” Who was the author? It was Condoleezza Rice, who was foreign policy adviser to George Bush, then a Republican candidate for the presidency. She is now the Secretary of State. ..."


Read the Unless you are afraid your head may explode.

6/05/2006 07:37:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

“The President must remember that the military is a special instrument. It is lethal, and it is meant to be. It is not a civilian police force. And it is most certainly not designed to build a civilian society.” Who was the author? It was Condoleezza Rice

6/05/2006 07:39:00 PM  
Blogger Smacko said...

sirius_sir
I do not know how you were able to read all that into what Maliki was quoted as saying.

There is a limit to the acceptable excuses. Yes a mistake may happen but there is an acceptable limit to mistakes...

We are worried about the increase in mistakes. I am not saying that they are intentional. But it is worrying for us...

We will use our authority since we are responsible for protecting the Iraqi people, and we are elected by people ...

Those who kill intentionally or through negligence should be tried.


You can take pick each segment apart.

I just do not see it as objectionalbe as you do. This seems more of a rorshach test.

Seems those that are disheartened read much more into this than others.

6/05/2006 08:41:00 PM  
Blogger Bon Air said...

Get out now? Pack up,leave while saying " we accomplished what we set out to do, this is no longer our battle." Do proponents of this action understand the consequences of leaving now? Do you really want to see our enemies emboldened? Somalia X 10? I wonder if this is exactly what detractors of the battle of Iraq want so they can forever call it a failure.

War sucks, War is truly hell. It's ugly and Iraq will not be a western style democracy for a long time if ever but we have to see it through to an obvious percieved defeat of our enemies.

We went in because of looming threats to our security. We have to see this through for our own security.

level the place? That doesn't sound as crazy as it used to.

6/05/2006 08:58:00 PM  
Blogger gokart-mozart said...

DR 2:56PM "Get to see what two years of US training is really worth."

Can't we just watch old ARVN movies?

Do we really have to live through this again? Waiting for the next Patsy Schroeder? Please.

6/06/2006 03:19:00 AM  
Blogger gokart-mozart said...

habu_1 4:52PM "We just need one more Iraqi in one more important position and everything will fall into place.
This man will have great powers to pursuade all factions that one more electric generator is all that is needed.
We just need to find this man and place him in the perfect position."

We found him in a spider hole in December 2003, and currently have him starring in a charade somewhere in one of the former Ottoman provinces.

We should have killed him when we had the chance.

6/06/2006 03:25:00 AM  
Blogger Cannoneer No. 4 said...

How can these groups claim to support our troops while telling us that what we are participating in is wrong?

How can they support us if they are essentially saying that our blood and sacrifices have all been given in vain?

How can they support us if they say that our comrades and brothers who have been wounded or killed in action have done so for a hopeless and morally questionable cause?

They can’t. As a matter of fact, I assert with a considerable degree of confidence that their efforts make our already difficult job even more difficult. I’ll go so far as to say that their rallies and protests cost more and more servicemen their lives and limbs every day.
I support my assertion with evidence gathered first hand. I see the Iraqi people every day. The protesters do not. I speak with the Iraqi people every day. The protesters do not. I don’t sit behind a desk and do paperwork or resupply efforts in the military. I am an Infantry Marine and I walk the sewage-filled streets of this city every single day.
In Fallujah, the people watch Al Jazeerah. However, they also watch CNN. A lot of them fear that the United States will soon cut and run. The people of Iraq see when our country is divided. When they see rallies to “Bring The Troops Home,” they see that as a sign that we will end our efforts prematurely.
Furthermore, they know that the insurgents will not end their efforts early. That leads them to the conclusion that when we leave, the insurgents will still be there. Therefore, if they help us, their lives and the lives of their loved ones will be in great jeopardy the minute we leave — if we don’t finish the job.
Much that they see on American television leads them to believe that we intend to abandon our efforts before the new Iraqi government is capable of defending itself and its citizens.


-- Anthony Ippoliti, USMC

6/06/2006 03:48:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

"Sato’s friends and family found Reese’s punishment “light.” They had asked for the death penalty.

“I myself am dissatisfied with the sentence,” Sato’s brother, Shuichi Sanada, said during a news conference held after the sentencing. He was the only person to testify other than Reese during the two trial hearings since March and Friday’s sentencing.

“As I have been saying from the beginning, I want (Reese) to pay for the crime with capital punishment,” Sanada said.
"
---
Agreed:
Japanese taxpayers should not have to pay to keep trash breathing anymore the we should here.

6/06/2006 04:26:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

cannoneer

More than half the US Public does not support the War in Iraq, as presently prosecuted.

That's a fact

That fact is transmitted
People see and hear it, everywhere.
Facts embolden the Enemy

You tend to blame the transmitter
I tend to blame the facts.

6/06/2006 05:31:00 AM  
Blogger sirius_sir said...

Smacko,

Did you read the headline to that very same article? Iraqi PM impatient with U.S. troops killing civilians

Got that? He's "impatient."

Perhaps I should excuse the poor man's impatience. Perhaps you could then excuse my impatience with his impatience.

Or perhaps he is not impatient at all, but completely understanding of the difficulties entailed in doing the job we are doing, and the headline is merely someone else's interpretation of what is, as you say, a Rorshach test for those who are disheartened.

But if that is so, maybe you could call the good people at Reuters and give them the benefit of your opinion too. Please tell them your theory about stories like these being a Rorshach test and that such a headline skews the results.

6/06/2006 05:59:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

My Japan comment above references canoneer's apparent conflation of War Zone Military Justice with Murderous Scumbag behavior in Japan, which is most assuredly NOT a warzone!
(Nor are Japanese women a threat or target for frustration to real men.)
Kitty Hawk sailor gets life term for killing Japanese woman

6/06/2006 02:15:00 PM  
Blogger Brenda Sue said...

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3/18/2007 02:34:00 PM  

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