Wednesday, April 26, 2006

Annals of mosque and state: the brothel shakedown

Wretchard has honored me with an invitation to guest-blog here at The Belmont Club during his walk in the woods. We'll do our level best not to mess up the place in his absence.

From Spiegel Online, we learn that Muslims have threatened a German brothel for flying particular national flags:

A German brothel seeking to drum up business during the World Cup has been forced to remove the national flags of Saudi Arabia and Iran from an array of flags on its facade after threats from Muslims saying it was insulting their faith....

A giant poster covering the side of the seven-story, 126-apartment building showed a friendly-looking blonde woman lifting up her bra above the slogan "A Time to Make Girlfriends", in a play on the World Cup's official slogan "A Time to Make Friends." Right beneath her pink panties were posters of the flags, including those of strictly Islamic Saudi Arabia and Iran.

Pascha's manager Armin Lobscheid had also erected real flags of all the World Cup nations on another side of the building.

The campaign provoked excitement, but not the kind the management was hoping for. Men from the Muslim community came to the door complaining that showing the flags of Saudi Arabia and Iran was an insult to the Prophet Muhammad. Later, some returned in masks.

"On Friday evening we were threatened by 11 masked men who demand that we take down the Saudi Arabian flag," Lobscheid told the Kölner Express, a local newspaper. Not wanting any trouble, the brothel obliged and removed it and the Iranian one. But that still left the flags printed on the poster.

"On Saturday night there were 20 masked men armed with knives and sticks. They threatened to get violent and even bomb the place unless we black out the Iranian and Saudia Arabian flags on the poster as well," said Lobscheid.

We are becoming sadly used to the spectacle of gangs of Muslims threatening violence to demand that non-Muslims retract speech that is otherwise protected under Western law. While Border's, Comedy Central and Jyllands-Posten probably won't appreciate being lumped in with the Pascha brothel in Cologne, they have all confronted and, with the exception of the newspaper, capitulated to the same threat. With each victory the Muslim vigilantes that punish lawful speech will be emboldened, so we must be prepared for this story to repeat itself many times.

There is more here, though, than fodder for another rant about the willingness of Muslim extremists -- if that is what they are -- to threaten speakers. One of the huge differences between Islam and modern Christianity is the former's insistance that the state and the religion should be integrated, or at the very least mutually reinforcing under law. This idea is not only alien to modern Westerners, but most of us (including religious Americans) believe that separation of the state and religion is a fundamental requirement for the liberty of individuals. However similar patriotism and religion may seem in their derivation from faith and emotion, Westerners consider them to be very different. The brothel incident reveals the extent to which even European Muslims disagree.

The "cartoon intifada" fought depictions of the Prophet Mohammed. The masked men behind the brothel shakedown claim that the unflattering deployment of the Saudi and Iranian national flags are tantamount to the same thing. If we imagine that many Muslims (whether or not a small percentage of the whole) share this point of view, the political and policy implications are more than a little troubling. Several come to mind.

First, if it is blasphemous in the minds of Muslims to denigrate the flag of Iran, how will Muslims the world over react to Western criticism of the government of that country? Yes, we have always expected that Muslims will to some degree naturally rally to the side of Muslim governments that stand up to the United States. What will we do if large numbers of Muslims living in the West claim that criticism of Muslim governments is blasphemous? Will that fact undermine the ability of the West to contain Iran and other Muslim powers?

Second, what are the implications of this for the American legal system, particularly civil rights laws? For better or for worse, American law usually defines discrimination according to the sensitivities of the plaintiff. If an employer expresses the political opinion that "We should bomb Iran to kingdom come," has he just created a hostile work environment for his Muslim employees, actionable under U.S. law? Under the logic of the brothel vigilantes, why not?

Third, the German Muslim vigilantes did not seem to care that Iran is Shiite and Saudi Arabia is Sunni. Both national flags were seen as a proxy for Islam the religion. If disaffected European Muslims take this point of view, why should we assume that other radicals won't? Beware the claims of Western analysts that Sunnis and Shiites won't work together, at least in the confronting of non-Muslims.

Fourth, if the perspective of the brothel vigilantes are not uncommon in the Muslim community, what does this say about the claimed distinction between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism? If the denigration of the flags of Muslim nations is equivalent to insulting Muslims, how can it be that denigration of Israel is not equivalent to anti-Semitism?

Of course, we might be reading far too much into this incident. It might just be the unreasoned objections of the mob to identification with a house of prostitution. Do we hope that is true and ignore this incident, or do we defend the pimp in order to learn whether the implications of this small story are of political and geopolitical significance?

Please offer your comments below.

[I've cross-posted a slightly more risque version at TigerHawk.]


Blogger pacific_waters said...

"Third, the German Muslim vigilantes did not seem to care that Iran is Shiite and Saudi Arabia is Sunni. Both national flags were seen as a proxy for Islam the religion."

Now there's a clue about an islamic divide. Even though they may hate each other they hate outsiders even more.

4/26/2006 09:08:00 AM  
Blogger the mad fiddler said...

I very much want to print this article and post it on the bulletin board of the college where I am teaching. But I am ashamed to admit that I fear doing so, even anonymously, because of the P.C. madness that has overtaken the academic community. It is not that the community is predominantly anti-Christian or anti-American or Pro-Muslim; it is that the radical left are ready at any time to intimidate their opponents (at least domestic conservative ones) and simultaneously exploit the constitutional protections for themselves that they deny to any who disagree with them.

We have less to fear from the Muslim fanatics of the world than from the idiots here at home. The radicalized liberals have so lost touch with reality that they defend the Islamic Jihadists who would slaughter them without a moment's hesitation then piss on their bodies with glee. The first thing the Iranian Revolutionary government did under the Ayutollah Khomeini was to round up homosexuals, adulterers, women accused of any sexual indiscretiion, political dissidents and opponents of the revolution and imprison them. Tens of thousands of these prisoners were then executed after brief trials under the new Shariah law protocols, hung from convenient lamp posts, construction cranes, girders, et cetera. The executions have killed maybe fewer than did the Iran-Iraq battles, but the victims were precisely the outcasts, dissidents, and non-conformists the Left claim to defend, but whom they abandon unlamented to their fate at the hands of the Islamic fanatics.

4/26/2006 09:10:00 AM  
Blogger Ash said...

If we were to seriously debate the foreign policy and other implications of any group who could muster 20 protestors (even they were wearing masks) we wouldn't have much time to consider anything worthwile. Are you suggesting that we may be seeing protests throughout the muslim world because of the slight perpetrated by this pimp? Well, if we do see such protests we can further commiserate on how ridiculous all the muslims of the world are as is the penchant here. Until then...

4/26/2006 09:10:00 AM  
Blogger TigerHawk said...


No, I'm not expecting protests about this throughout the Muslim world. My point is slightly different: Are the attitudes of these German Muslims fairly common, or unique to these twenty? They had to get the idea to commit this crime. Did it arise from ideas that are reasonably widespread in the Muslim community? If so, there are implications. On the other hand, if this incident was simply the whacky product of some local rabble-rouser who wanted to have some fun on a spring afternoon, I certainly agree that there is little to be learned from it.

4/26/2006 09:15:00 AM  
Blogger DanMyers said...

Ash does bring up an excellent point. (If I read his post correctly) To give weight to these demonstrations gives them legitimacy. But, I believe Ash, that the point of TigerHawk's post was to show that these demonstrations are opportunistic. Borders make no difference, neither does sect. Vacuums in power lead to opportunists. The muslims see a weakness and are exploting it. That weakness is multi-culturalism taken to the extreme.

Tigerhawk, I apologize for trying to put words in your mouth... Just trying to flesh out the discussion....

4/26/2006 09:27:00 AM  
Blogger DanMyers said...

Ooops, I see that you already answered...

4/26/2006 09:28:00 AM  
Blogger tim maguire said...

I think it's a natural byproduct of the riots we've already seen. Once people get used to the idea of threatening violence against thsoe who give offense...well, there are going to be lots of independant operators enforcing the "no offense" rule.

Just as the anti-war hippies in the 60's, an ostensible peace movement, descended into violence, so too any diffuse movement is going to have radicals. In a case like this, where even the mainstream is radical and violent, there will be a great many mobs of 20 enforcing whatever stupidity creeps into their heads.

Unless governments screw up their courage and crack down harshly, even in defense of a pimp, we're going to be seeing a lot of this. For ever pettier reasons.

4/26/2006 09:32:00 AM  
Blogger Starling David Hunter said...

TigerHawk, nice to see you here at Belmont.

I have a few observations to share before heading into town (Dubai) for a movie.

1) The Shia-Sunni divide is a topic that arises on occasion here where I teach in the Middle East. In fact one of my students recently tried to apply economic theories of rivalry to the situation. That the two groups could be united either by a common enemy or super-ordinate goal, e.g. self-preservation was an obvious conclusion, but not in this context was it forseen! Then again, if I knew more about the religious affiliations of the "youths" that were burning down French banlieus last year, I might revise my opinion.

2) It is interesting that street protests and/or calls for a boycott of the brothel are not the preferred mode of expressing discontent here.

3) I wonder if the vigilantes will patrol the area surrounding the brothel to intimidate their respective co-religionists and intimidate or otherwise discourage them from making girlfriends.

My inclination is to think this matter is less about national pride or religious affiliation and more about using the two for cover in what is otherwise a garden variety shakedown. Maybe what they are really after is to be down with a discount? Or maybe they want a piece of the action, i.e. to be paid to go away. Otherwise, I think, they'd be wanting the place shut down.

4/26/2006 09:34:00 AM  
Blogger Stephen Macklin said...

Perhaps it would have been fitting for a group of angry German hookers to stage a protest in which they pull down the Saudi and Iranian flags and burn them. That seems to be the accepted Islamic was to deal with the flag of a nation with which you have a dispute.

4/26/2006 09:40:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Great points as usual from SDHunter. A "donation" to the local mosque would tell much.

Have to wonder, though, if a donation to the local police athletic league wouldn't be even more helpful.

Theoretically, you pays your "protection" money in your tax bill.

4/26/2006 09:42:00 AM  
Blogger raymondshaw said...

So Ash, what would you think merits debate and commiseration if '20 masked men armed with knives and sticks' showed up at your front door of your house to threaten violence about some legal visual items displayed on your property?

4/26/2006 09:49:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Not in defense of their knives and sticks, but it could also be that the Muslim men were fathers trying to protect their young kids from the seedy side of liberty. Perhaps the local Muzzies aren't as sophisticated as the local westerners, who have learned to just look the other way when little johnny and susie between the ages of say 4 and 12 wonder what the lifted bras and pink panties on the billboards really mean for them. Not that I'm against lifted bras and pink panties, but sheesh--billboards ?

4/26/2006 09:53:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

My point is that had we not let liberty drift so far into license, some segment of the Jihad would be automatically co-opted.

4/26/2006 09:56:00 AM  
Blogger Eggplant said...

This is hilarious. I suspect that Saudi tourists are among the more frequent foreign customers at the Berlin cat houses. The Berlin pimps are only advertising to their client base.

O/T: There's a funny article over at "Drudge Report" about how the moonbat media has tanked.

Bushitler's popularity may have gone down the toilet but the moonbats are down there with him.

4/26/2006 10:15:00 AM  
Blogger Habu_1 said...

Ash has the best point.

My question is really much like Ash's. How in the hell did this make it to this blogsite?

Shouldn't we be discussing something important. Say the number of germs on the average grocery cart handle?

4/26/2006 10:16:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...

This story is a stereotypical example of countless predecessors. Same Islamic nonsense, a different day is the sole distinguishing characteristic.

By the way, stereotypes are good. Homo sapiens has survived and attained dominance by the successful use of same.

4/26/2006 10:30:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...

buddy larsen,

"lifted bras and pink panties"

This billboard is tame by comparison. If public displays of nudity, public sexual acting out, and smoking are offensive, DO NOT go to Europe, where all three are ubiquitous.

Another statement is being made by the worldly-wise practitioners of the Religion of Outrage. Possibly, it could be as simple as their outrage quota was low for the day. Just practicing that old-time (7th C.) religion, do you think?

4/26/2006 10:40:00 AM  
Blogger Mearcstapa said...

Yes Ash, the West in general is so effete and helpless that 20 men threatening violence is a serious matter. This situation is pathetic. How can any of us hold our heads up?

It has been proven time and again: violence gets results. Not much else does.

4/26/2006 10:49:00 AM  
Blogger Habu_1 said...

Thanks Allen.

I think the girls should offer flag designed condoms. The good old Red, White,and Blue versus the Islamic Green. Of course that crescent could cause some discomfort.
We could get Peter Max to do some updated versions as mememintoes.

4/26/2006 10:51:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Allen, i'm no prude--it's just that the debate seldom recognizes a practical matter--that the next generation is an investment, and so it's in society's interest to maintain a child-friendly public square. Is it wise to elevate hedonism to a pursuit as worthy as the so-called virtues?

4/26/2006 10:56:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

it ain't the red-Light district that's impractical--it's the billboard.

4/26/2006 10:58:00 AM  
Blogger Habu_1 said...

Raymondshaw 9:49
I think Ash would be a sophisticate and repond appropriately.
I would kill them.

4/26/2006 11:00:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Ah, if only the Yerps had a Second Amendment--you could still buy car insurance in Paris--

Sidearms make for gracious behavior.

4/26/2006 11:03:00 AM  
Blogger Habu_1 said...

Ah Folks,
Even here in the USA it's way too late in the game to protect our kiddies from pronography etc, much less in Europe. That war is way over.
Check out the bandwith given over to porno, the out of wedlock births,etc.
I blaming Jean Jacque Rousseau and female gynmists straddling the balance beam.

4/26/2006 11:08:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...


It's good to have you back in the saddle.

I friend told me recently that she had seen condoms in the verisimilitude of politicians, while shopping in a German town.

Whether Herr Schroeder or his wife have filed suit yet, I have not heard. If de Villepin sues, I expect his complaint will address the size of the product rather than his injured sense of propriety. Mr. Bush will laugh it off, I am sure. My friend did not mention having seen any Mohammed condoms on open display.

A couple of years ago, I passed by the window of a small photography shop. On display was the proprietor's handiwork. Among other things, were proudly displayed happy German couples in various poses, in the buff, as well as in wedding finery. A small Mideastern food store was on the same block, apparently unconcerned.

Europe is not a place for the faint of heart. The RoO goons know this well.

4/26/2006 11:11:00 AM  
Blogger RWE said...

What we are seeing in these cases is a basically different way of thnking compared to the modern world, the same kind of thought process that burns down a Jewish Synagogue in France when Israel blows up a Hamas leader follwing a suicide bombing.

The closest "modern" equivalent to this thought process is a bunch of rednecks attacking a black man chosen at random because another black man raped a white woman. Or a bunch of inner city blacks attacking a white truck driver because a jury refused to convict some white police officers - to use a purely hypothetical example.

This is not modern thinking. This is tribal in nature, and belongs to a much earlier era.

4/26/2006 11:11:00 AM  
Blogger 2164th said...

At any one time there are more Muslims in any one Soho "massage parlor" than were protestors at this brothel. Hold your fire gentleman.

4/26/2006 11:16:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...

buddy larsen,

"next generation is an investment"

Demographically, it appears that Europe is investing elsewhere.

What "red light district?" That was my point. The EU is far too sophisticated to banish hedonism to an out-of-the-way back alley. If you've got it, flaunt it.

As I know you agree, better an over abundance of T&A than an over abundance of Semtex.

4/26/2006 11:18:00 AM  
Blogger doolz said...

pacific_waters is right, they're quite happy to kill all of us off and then fight over the spoils.

If anyone of you have done Anthropology, you might recognize E E Evans-Pritchard's concept of the 'Segmented Lineage'. There's also a proverb (Somali) to this effect:

Me and my clan against the world;
Me and my family against my clan;
Me and my brother against my family;
Me against my brother.

First they came for the Dutch filmmakers, but I was not a Dutch filmmaker, so I didn't give a crap.
Then they came for the Danish cartoonists, but I was not a Danish cartoonist either.
Then they came for the German whoremongers...
Wait, don't the Saudis usually come for the German whoremongers? Am I missing something here?

4/26/2006 11:19:00 AM  
Blogger 2164th said...

I understand there are also some amazing thongs underneath some of those burkahs

4/26/2006 11:25:00 AM  
Blogger allen said...


The Saudis go to Switzerland, where the EU whoremongers serve the full buffet.

Good post!

4/26/2006 11:27:00 AM  
Blogger skipsailing said...

I recall reading somewhere that the European muslims have no respect for the "whites" they live with.

The point is that violence works. The german brothel owner must not have a bevy of samoan bouncers to deal with this sort of thing.

One has to wonder when such an incident will occur in the US. As the muslim skin gets thinner and thinner surely something will stir the ire of the muslims who have chosen to live in the US.

Then what?

further, the demonstration wasn't about the trade going on at the brothel at all, it was about the flags. that seems mighty hypocritical to me.

4/26/2006 11:28:00 AM  
Blogger Habu_1 said...

Allen 11:11

I understand that de Villepin has already gone chien exaspere because all of his were marked "petite".

4/26/2006 11:34:00 AM  
Blogger DanMyers said...

SkipSailing finally gets back to the point of TigerHawks point in his post...

4/26/2006 11:36:00 AM  
Blogger Habu_1 said...

Skipsailing 11:29

Then what?

I don't know where you live but down here in the old South they'll be a lot of dead Muslims. A lot.
And it seems to me that great Northern men like Grant, Chamblerlin would do some clean up too. They did a damn fine job before.

4/26/2006 11:42:00 AM  
Blogger DanMyers said...


I don't disagree with your picture of the South.. My neighborhood would put many armories to shame.

The question that I see posed by TigerHawks post is how near are we to Europe? What is the rate of change of the slope (downward)?

4/26/2006 11:47:00 AM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

I'm seeing increasing instances of a double-standard in the practice of Islam between what is allowed in the Middle East and what Muslims are trying to cram down our throats in the west.

It seems to me that this is such an instance, and I wonder if there would have been a similar outcry over a sexy ad in, say, Egypt -- or if Egypt's Muslims would just have accepted it as another instance of tourism's dollar triumphing over all else.

The other instance that leaps quickly to mind is a request by Muslims in the West - America or England, I forget right now which - that the gym where they work out put a dividing curtain down the middle so that men and women are segregated. I'm remembering it was Big Pharoah's blog I read this in, where he commented that *his* gym in Cairo doesn't even do any such thing.

I wonder if these *are* shakedown attempts, or if they are just (male) Muslim attempts to throw their weight around in a foreign culture where they probably have absolutely no other power at all.

4/26/2006 11:57:00 AM  
Blogger Habu_1 said...

danmyers 11:47

IMHO , (actually never had a one) but it's PC so I'll play.
It's not a slope. It's more like a randon walk down wall street or chaos theory. An incident here, an insult there.
We have plenty of tender ready to explode right now into civil war. The Mexicans and South Americans are turning more militant and DEMANDING of the US, the Muslims...we don't have a melting pot but a distinct raindow with separate and distinguishable separations.
Nope, no slope, just another Gavrilo Princip at Sarajevo.
So 7.62 Full Metal Jacket

4/26/2006 12:02:00 PM  
Blogger 5050noline said...

Ash 9:10

I am a little late to this site, but NO we are not to debate the reaction of a mere 20 violence-threatening Muslims to the conduct of what is a perfectly legal business in secular Germany, but we SHOULD debate the supine 'PC' reaction of the business management.

4/26/2006 12:07:00 PM  
Blogger fastfoodnationalist said...

Again, Huntington's game plays out before our eyes. The questions of the moment:

Will Europe fight for its 'hedonism'?

Example: Will the Dutch fight for their "coffee bars? The Germans for their brothels? (Note: What are the French willing to mobilize for....)

If and when europeans retreat from the cultural ground of their previously 'flaunted' Red Light Districts, what cultural stuff would they guard? What button is there to push...or deftly avoid as you push all the other buttons?

Are they unable to conceive of a cultural flag as a rallyingpoint, such flags becoming mere fabric offered up to sacrifice to the multicultural quiltwork of Levant and Maghreb savages?

4/26/2006 12:29:00 PM  
Blogger Starling David Hunter said...

skipsailing said..."One has to wonder when such an incident will occur in the US. As the muslim skin gets thinner and thinner surely something will stir the ire of the muslims who have chosen to live in the US."

skip, this already has happened.
Late last year members "the Nation" ransacked and vandalized a liquor store in the Bay Area. Granted NOI members are typically African-America, not Arab or Middle Eastern immigrants, but still this act was ostensibly undertaken in the name of religion.

skipsailing then said "Then what?"

My thought, as well. While we're waiting for an answer, let's not hold our breath waiting for CAIR to denounce the boorish behavior.

4/26/2006 12:45:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_1 said...

The marabunda are crossing the river on leaves ...

workout time.

4/26/2006 12:53:00 PM  
Blogger Mark White said...

Both Saudi Arabia and Iran use their unearned oil wealth to export radical Islam. The protesters (who presumably are violating German law by appearing in public wearing masks and bearning arms) are "protecting" their financiers. The financiers will certainly use that unearned wealth to make new girlfriends (unless they behave out of character), but they'll do so hypocritically -- do as we say, not as we do.

We can protecting free speech from radical Islam most directly by defunding the Islamic radicals. Both Saudi and Iran are empires, with many disparate elements. All their unearned oil wealth is concentrated in provinces with Shiite Arab majorities, oppressed by small numbers of Wahabbi Arabs from Riyadh and Revolutionary Guard Persians from Tehran. With help from Anglosphere allies (UK, Canada, Australia, India), Japan, and our new Shiite Arab allies in Iraq, the USA could make very short work of those Wahhabis and Revolutionary Guards, and administer that oil wealth to create infrastructure for the locals rather than exporting radical Islam to Germany.

Confronting those masked protesters with the challenges of making a living will soon turn their energies to other, less noxious, pursuits.

4/26/2006 12:55:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

stated: Perhaps it would have been fitting for a group of angry German hookers to stage a protest in which they pull down the Saudi and Iranian flags and burn them. That seems to be the accepted Islamic was to deal with the flag of a nation with which you have a dispute.

How about they used the flags as SHEETS and just humped on them...

4/26/2006 12:58:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Well, we still have cops over here. Armed cops.

4/26/2006 01:00:00 PM  
Blogger Jrod said...

We can assume correctly that these protestors are not opposed to brothels in general--at least not from a good Muslim POV. As I recall Turkey has a thriving brothel business, mostly staffed with Eastern Europeans, many kidnapped or otherwise tricked into the profession.

4/26/2006 01:05:00 PM  
Blogger Jim said...

Having spent many years in Saudi Arabia, I'd be pretty sure the first customers in line when the brothel opens would be Saudis, if they had any concept of waiting their turn in line. Most moderate Saudis operate under the guideline that Allah does not see them when they are outside the country. They don't see that as hypocritical either. They're much like Babtists at an out-of-town convention. Basically regular people, they'll even pray for your soul.
The muslim vigilantes are another breed however. They are incurable and dangerous...kind of like the christians that blow up abortion clinics.

4/26/2006 01:10:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Speaking of double standards, whatever happened to the peaceful muzzies yelling kill the Jews or some such in NY?
I never read a thing, anybody got a link?
Sad that the Falangong Lady gets charged, and those Nazi's get away with that.
Or did they?

4/26/2006 01:19:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"The muslim vigilantes are another breed however. They are incurable and dangerous...kind of like the christians that blow up abortion clinics. "
Haven't those been pretty well eliminated by strict (selective compared to the PoP) enforcement?

4/26/2006 01:21:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

German demograhics--essay by Reuters:

"(Bernburg) Citizens over the age of 65 make up nearly a quarter of the population, up from 14 percent in 1990. Only one in 10 Bernburgers is aged 15 or below, half the ratio of 16 years ago."

4/26/2006 01:22:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Islamic financiers sell Koran-compliant American dream
Banks Turn Back the Clock: (or forward, by "Koranic Standards")
But Madun, like thousands of others, recently turned to a mortgage compliant with Koranic law, a fast-growing niche for entrepreneurial bankers in which American financial engineering is reshaping a centuries-old Islamic tradition. These banks have developed ways of avoiding traditional interest-carrying mortgages, for example by buying the home then having the buyer pay the bank for it over time.

"The banking market is becoming saturated and firms have to figure ways to grow," said analyst Alois Pirker of consulting firm Celent, who has tracked the growth of Islamic finance. "The Islamic community is growing and if a bank can capture that community, there is big potential there.

4/26/2006 01:26:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

tho the demographic decline is usually ascribed to secularism, or malaise--plenty of savvy economists are pointing to the tax burden and the cost of housing. Many Germans are in cramped housing--rented--through their child-bearing years, and have neither the cash nor the space to add that extra rug-crawler or two.

This of course is yet another example of the basic socialist death-wish, where the welfare state prices out the very thing it needs to sustain itself--the next generation of taxpayers.

4/26/2006 01:28:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

1:22 PM Yeah, but youth crime is way down, and will stay there until the peaceful Muzzies arrive.

4/26/2006 01:28:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Jimmah destroys my sex drive whenever I think of him.

4/26/2006 01:29:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

ah, Jeez--I love walkin out the back door, over to the edge of the hill, looking out over a largely empty Blanco river valley, and throwing back my haid and lettin loose a Rebel Yell out over the echoing morning mists--

4/26/2006 01:34:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Allen 11:11 AM,
Cruel cut to imply "a female gynmist straddling the balance beam." is how you picture Habu being "back in the saddle."

4/26/2006 01:35:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Doug, try to just not think of Jimmah whenever you're...uh...oh, skip it.

4/26/2006 01:38:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

You brought it up.
Nah, skip that too.

4/26/2006 01:40:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

LOL--okay stop now--B4 the boss hollers again--

4/26/2006 01:43:00 PM  
Blogger erico said...

How enlightened you all are. Except for buddy larson, all of the comments to this (now dead) post come from a self-satisfied 'modern' perspective in which abortion clinics and brothels = legitimate business and religious values = tribalism. Must we have, figuratively and literally, a naked public square? One must take account of the larger aims and methods of islamists, but for my part, should the concerned, civil muslim use legitimate civil processes to apply pressure to the brothel or the abortion clinic, I would consider making common cause with him.

Sorry to interrupt, get back to your porn.

4/26/2006 02:34:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

erico--you could probably make the argument a little more diplomatically with a different closing sentence, but you have a point--where decent people of all religions could come together--rescuing the public square from the Demoralizers. Maybe the new SCOTUS, in time.

4/26/2006 02:47:00 PM  
Blogger truepeers said...

This story reminds me of the Mustafa Shag incident

Most of the Muslims in Germany are Turks, and as Jrod says, Turkey is full of brothels, often with kidnapped (tricked and sold into slavery by acquaintances in some cases) women from eastern Europe. A culture that allows this to happen to its women is bound to die, unless it repents... one has to stand up to the slave traders

4/26/2006 03:14:00 PM  
Blogger allen said...


I would try reading the posts again because you have missed something: facts.

Reporting facts is not the same thing as supporting them, at least not in this part of the woods.

Obviously, there will be those who find this lede insulting to Islam. To those may I suggest that Islam give up its murderous ways, if its proponents wish it to be taken seriously elsewhere.

I do hope that I have been diplomatic enough.

4/26/2006 03:24:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Allow me to clarify Allen's "elsewhere"--on other topics of concern, he means, rather than other geographical locations.

IOW, rein in your blood-fundies, Islam, and then you'll get a hearing on your other social ideas.

Tookie's best-sellers didn't bring his murder victims back to life.

4/26/2006 03:35:00 PM  
Blogger whit said...

I agree with Buddy. A little less hedonism would go a long way to towards creating a civil society. Christians and Muslims both deplore the coarsening of society but comparisons about actions and tactics reveal an unhealthy bias against the former.

The point of the post, though is to document the action and the tactics involved. The question for the west is, will this type of "citizen action" become more common as fundamentalist Islam continues in it's waxing phase?

Islam cannot tolerate the hedonist, secular society of the west and only trouble lies ahead as decadent western socities fail to repopulate themselves even as Isamic populations flourish. Ten or fifteen years from now, Euro hedonists may not recognise their former haunts.

4/26/2006 03:48:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

This is very interesting. You should also see the site:

4/26/2006 03:53:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

that's right--it's not so much the level of public license, but the trend--people naturally look ahead at things, and make bets on the trends--everything from the weather to how the kids will turn out. One has to wonder how long it'll be before we're serving roast child with an apple in its mouth.

If the "traditional values" west just had a voice anymore--anything that could get past the mockery of the Illuminati--it would go a long ways to quit freaking out Joe Sixpack Islam--IMHO.

4/26/2006 03:58:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

What's Bud done now?
...something about naked pubic hair?

4/26/2006 04:14:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

dan's link

4/26/2006 04:16:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

4/26/2006 04:17:00 PM  
Blogger whit said...

Doug, LOL.

I guess you didn't get the office memo.

You need to clean out your ears!

naked pubic hairs, waxing, you're a character; that's for sure.


4/26/2006 04:23:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...


4/26/2006 04:24:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

"public square", doug. Hey, I found myself down wit Louis Farrakhan awhile back--he was deploring Hollywood's influence on the young. Yeh, I know about the "off" button on the trash--but people's children are out there with other people's children who don't got no "off' button at home--and society told 'em to do whatever feels good--and maybe mocks 'em if they don't. Bill Cosby for President.

4/26/2006 04:25:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"Yeh, I know about the "off" button on the trash--"
Yeah, I don't buy that argument, anyhow:
1 or both of us was around almost all the time, and it still can't ALL be avoided, even w/o peer issue.
...and part of that was before the internet.
All smut all the time sucks.

4/26/2006 04:28:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Those 20 armed men, and euro-Muzzies in general--have only as much respect for the "white people" as the white people have for themselves.

4/26/2006 04:29:00 PM  
Blogger whit said...


You think you can lurk back here on an old thread, cracking wise? Well, don't pout when someone turns you in and you get called on the carpet.

This thread is barely 73 comments long and you; you're asking for it, young man!:)

BTW, where's Opotho?

4/26/2006 04:29:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

He's opposing someone somewhere else I tink.

4/26/2006 04:32:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

The neat thing about having Snow in there post-op, is that when he's talking to David Gregory,
there's only 1 a-hole.

4/26/2006 04:37:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

okay, that did it...Wretcharrrrrd!!!

4/26/2006 04:46:00 PM  
Blogger whit said...

Doug won't shut up and he's eatin his boogers!

4/26/2006 04:52:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...


4/26/2006 05:02:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Re-reading Hawk's excellent post, and esp in the context of the Dana Priest affair, and now the NY Times/Keller e-mail revelation, seems like Political Correctness, Multiculturalism/Liberalism, Civil Rights Laws as described by Hawk, plus CAIR, ACLU, et al, it seems like paralysis emanating from the home front is now our greatest challenge.
We have put ourselves in legal boxes, and defined ourselves in such a way to be powerless in the face of many of their assaults, which don't even need to be very sophisticated.

4/26/2006 07:03:00 PM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

Ar-nuhld was deploring the death threats being made against our Mexican mayor Villairigosa here in Los Angeles vis-a-vis the mayor's enthusiastic support of all things Mexican and denial of the word "illegal".

And it seems to me that if death threats work for the Muslims, then why the hell can't we white Real Americans use them, too, to make a point?

4/26/2006 07:27:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

I'm not even sure if my 1:19 PM incident of Nazi Jew Hatred and acting out in NYCity really happened.
I guess I should Google it and find out.
Seems like pretty good example of the double standard taken to extremes.

4/26/2006 07:39:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

(just wanted to interject to note that that dan is my doppleganger: who are you, Doppleganger!?)

Also, yes: I bet conservative Muslims are pretty appalled by public sex houses in Germany, as I would be. Yes, it's an instance of thuggery, perhaps, but frankly blacking out two Muslim flags? Doesn't really bother me. Now, if it were on a bank, and they were objecting, on Sharia grounds, to the lending of money at interest, that would be more exciting. But I think society's rotting, sexually - "fascinated by their own decadence," I recently read someone said of the Europeans (I think that woman who wrote Menace in Europe, or something, interviewed on Frontpagemagazine.)

4/26/2006 07:47:00 PM  
Blogger trangbang68 said...

Muslims seem to have a rather complicated relationship with the seedy side of life.Didn't the saintly Mo Atta visit the ladies of the night before dressing in his funeral white to seek his 72 virgins?And Fleabag Arafat allegedly had some unlawful knowledge of young boys.Tough life being a wild-eyed hypocrite.
OT:Another book recommendation:"Balsamic Dreams" by Joe Queenan.It is a hilarious sendup of baby boomers.It's more fun to laugh at them then cry over their treason and foolishness.

4/26/2006 07:51:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Actually, these discussions will all be rendered academic if Bush gets his way and sells the country down the Rio Grande:

...he's now resorted to subtrefuge and conspiring with the Democrats and McCainiacs:

Privately, Bush Says He Favors Citizenship

WASHINGTON -- President Bush generally favors plans to give millions of illegal immigrants a chance at U.S. citizenship without leaving the country, but does not want to be more publicly supportive because of opposition among conservative House Republicans, according to senators who attended a recent White House meeting.

You'll Love This one, Nahncee:

But left out of the closed-door White House meeting were senators who oppose a path to citizenship. The meeting even snubbed two men who had been considered allies of Mr. Bush on immigration -- Sen. John Cornyn, Texas Republican and chairman of the immigration subcommittee, and Sen. Jon Kyl, Arizona Republican.

4/26/2006 08:00:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"Doesn't really bother me."
It wouldn't me either, in isolation.
In reality, however, as Hawk points out, there have already been better (less extreme) examples of us giving up our most precious freedoms in the name of PC, "Civil Rights" and not offending the sensitive Muzzies.

4/26/2006 08:06:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

"Fascinated by their own decadence" *is* a haunting phrase. "decadent" is another one o them broken words--doesn't contain an agreed-upon meaning. Used to. Lordy, the mess is deep.

4/26/2006 08:07:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Couldn't find that demonstration I heard about on the radio, but came across this:

Sowing seeds of hatred
Textbooks widely used in New York's Islamic schools contain passages that are blatantly anti-Semitic, condemning Jews as a people, repeating old canards about the Jews wanting to kill Christ and faking their Holy Scriptures to mock God.

The Islamic texts teach that "the Jews" killed their own prophets and betrayed the Prophet Muhammed through their inherent deceitfulness.

4/26/2006 08:21:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

where the hell's the ACLU on that?

4/26/2006 08:25:00 PM  
Blogger texasviolinist said...

I think it is ok to be offended. Frankly brothels are offensive across the board and it offends me that the American flag is posted there but the thing that offends me most is that violence was threatened to get the flags removed. Was there no hope for dialog?

4/26/2006 08:33:00 PM  
Blogger Dymphna said...

texas violinist--

Dialogue???You're joking, right? *You* want dialogue? Since when?

Someone hand me the smelling salts...

Or maybe it was a Texas joke.

4/26/2006 09:20:00 PM  
Blogger sam said...

Combat Season and the Human Intelligence Front:

There has been an upsurge of activity -- both by coalition military forces and jihadists -- along the border of Afghanistan and Pakistan in recent days. This is partly due to the spring thaws, which traditionally mark the beginning of the combat season in the region -- and indeed, U.S.-led forces in Afghanistan have launched a fresh offensive, Operation Mountain Lion, in Afghanistan's Kunar province.

The human intelligence battle between the Americans and al Qaeda is not new; it dates back to the days before the "Bin Laden Unit" was established at the CIA's Counterterrorism Center.

For the United States, the pressure is due in some part to the current political cycle and the state of the presidency.

Certainly, the search for bin Laden and al-Zawahiri -- and the failure to locate them -- is not a new theme.

Of course, the administration is not alone in sensing pressure; al Qaeda's forces have been badly battered during the past four years.

The web of protection that al Qaeda leaders have spun around themselves has varied and nuanced threads. There are shared religious convictions, cultural and religious obligations to protect guests, ties of friendship and intermarriage with locals, and other factors that would make one loathe to betray their locations.

Combat Season

4/26/2006 09:24:00 PM  
Blogger Starling David Hunter said...

Ash said…” Well, if we do see such protests we can further commiserate on how ridiculous all the Muslims of the world are as is the penchant here.” Until then...

Ash, I disagree with your conclusion that the penchant of the Belmont Club’s comments is to commiserate on “how ridiculous (are) all the Muslims of the world.” Yes ridicule is heaped on “all Muslims” by commenters on this board when it only ought to be on some, e.g. particularly execrable characters like OBL, al-Sadr, Ahmedenijad, etc.

My reading of the comment threads over the last several months is that they are fairly balanced. That is to say, they contain ample amount of direct, harsh criticism and, at times, even invective about ourselves (Americans, the West, Europeans), especially our individual and collective failures to live up to our own high and cherished ideals. There is also much criticism here of the many and varied failures of certain institutions sworn to uphold those ideals, e.g. the current administration, the media, our intelligence agencies, members of congress.

My view is that while the comments are often less thoughtful than they could be, there are many remarkably frank and balanced appraisals here on the failings of ourselves and the other. IMHO the “Belmont” Club is not in danger of becoming the “Remove the Beam From Our Own Eye First” Club. Until then...

4/26/2006 10:25:00 PM  
Blogger 2164th said...

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Gunmen killed the sister of Iraq's new vice president in Baghdad on Thursday, police said.

Maysoon al-Hashimi, sister of Tariq al-Hashimi, and her driver were killed by four gunmen driving in a BMW in the al-Alam neighborhood of southwest Baghdad, an emergency police official said. -CNN

This post, Egyptian bombings, Jordan, Afghanistan and recent Saudi attacks all give evidence that there is a real civil war going on amongst various factions of Islam. If there is a current process not unlike The Spanish Inquisition or The Protestant Reformation then our strategy needs a radical alteration. One and a half billion people at war with themselves is beyond our political ability to sustain any effort broad enough and long enough to matter. It is their fight and we need to contain it from our borders. We have to design a strategy that is acceptable and effective in maintaining public support. The goals have to be far more modest and more lethal to the targeted transgressors against our interests. The nature of the war will be far more dependent upon intelligence and stealth than blatant military displays. It will require an official secrets act and harsh treatment against those that defy the law. This Islamic fire can be restrained behind fire-breaks, but it is not close to burning itself out. It is not our job and beyond our control to put it out.

4/27/2006 12:21:00 AM  
Blogger trish said...

Indeed, 2164th.

It's the Moslem Meltdown.

4/27/2006 01:23:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Today, some 80,000 people participated in a silent march in Brussels to commemorate 17 year old Joe Van Holsbeeck, who was knifed on 12 April because he refused to hand over his MP3 player to two North African youths.

Los Angeles County Supervisor Michael D. Antonovich said Tuesday that he will tell Congress that close to 100,000 children of illegal immigrants in the county collect $276 million in annual welfare benefits.

Antonovich, will meet with congressional representatives and provide information about the impact of illegal immigration on county services.

Antonovich said 98,703 children of 57,458 undocumented parents received Cal-WORKS welfare checks in January, or a total of 156,161 recipients.

"While legal immigration is a positive influence on our culture and economy ... in public safety, health care and public social services, illegals cost COUNTY taxpayers nearly three quarters of a billion dollars a year."
Honesty in Immigration
Newt Gingrich
Sweden Pulls Out of Military Exercises Because of Israel --> -->
Sweden has withdrawn from European military exercises due to be held next month in Italy because of Israel’s participation,

4/27/2006 03:43:00 AM  
Blogger 2164th said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

4/27/2006 05:23:00 AM  
Blogger 2164th said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

4/27/2006 05:27:00 AM  
Blogger 2164th said...

When you morph an IILEGAL into a DOCUMENTED you will be amazed at how quickly they become ENTITLED and for every DOCUMENTED ENTITLED you will shortly have additional NEW IMMIGRANTS leading to another twenty five to thirty million new ENTITLED DOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS, moms, dads, aunts, brothers and sisters who will shortly be ENTITLED and DEMOCRATS. THIRTY FIVE MILLION NEW IMMIGRANTS>

You on the other hand will spend the rest of your life working to support this and never be hindered by another REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT again.

THANK YOU George Carter Bush.

4/27/2006 05:28:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

5:28 AM 2164th:
Unfortunately "you" won't be you, me/us, but our children and all their children, and they won't be working in a Unique, United States environment anymore, but in the new two tiered globalist elite/wage slave socialist utopia. Brought to them by our corruption and the Newspeak/Dissimulation and treachery of GWB.
Spitting in the face of his base, the majority of the American people, and his disposable allies in public service, while violating his oath of office.

4/27/2006 06:04:00 AM  
Blogger Dan said...

In related news, is there any doubt al Jazeera is just the propoganda ministry for the global jihad? There shouldn't be. Now the Egyptian desk chief is arrested in Egypt for erroneously reporting bombings that did in fact take place. Granted, this is Egypt, so it's better to be as skeptical of the government as of Islamists, but it's probably noteworthy nonetheless, and is a strategic corollary to the OP.

4/27/2006 06:31:00 AM  
Blogger ghoullio said...

Doug at 3:34:

dividing the amount of money spent on families with the number of families equates to roughly $230 a month per family.

how can you complain about such a small pittance?

is it the over-all sum, or that each family is consuming too many resources at $230 a month?

ever try to raise a family of four on $300 a month?

4/27/2006 06:45:00 AM  
Blogger 2164th said...

How could I have forgotten that it is my responsibility to pay for someone else's family. Someone I do not know. Someone that is not supposed to be here in the first place. To be perfectly fair and following your rationality, we should just send a check to all others that cannot make the trip.

Most of these decent poor families are from countries where the landed gentry, no more than 5% own 95% of land and productive assets.

That is not of my doing nor that of my family. I have great sympathy for them but where do you draw the line? They are needy but they are not ENTITLED yet. Stay tuned

4/27/2006 06:56:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

So they had no other reported source of income?
Must not have paid too many taxes then, huh?
Never tried it in Mexico.
But then, I never wanted to live in Mexico.

4/27/2006 06:59:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Mike Brown, ex FEMA chief/scapegoat turns out to have been right, as confirmed by new report that indicts the destruction of FEMA with the creation of the new Dept of Homeland Security:
Capitulated to by GWB, just as he did with McCain-Feingold.

New Tone, No Veto, No Country.

4/27/2006 07:02:00 AM  
Blogger 2164th said...

The US is very fortunate that the Illegals from Latin America are very disposed towards American culture. They have strong family values are overwhelmingly Christian and have a tremendous work ethic. We are blessed that we do not face the problems the EU has with their Islamic immigrants.

The problem is this. When the Democrats and like minded Republicans fashion the new immigration plan it will create a new dependent class and will be similar to Puerto Rico, where 25% receive some form of welfare and vote overwhelming Demoncratic. That is OUR fault not theirs. Whenever you rob Peter to pay Paul, you can always depend on Paul's vote.

4/27/2006 07:10:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

The gift of $250 or so per illegal family amounts to a subsidy of Wal-Mart and the other Corporate giants and midgets that employ these migrant people.

Why should these people, here in the US illegally, get any Public support?

Go to Mexico and apply for "Assistance", see how far you'd get. Illegal immigrants are jailed in Mexico.
Immigrants are not allowed Political Voice, in Mexico. Freedom of Assembly and Petition are not allowed to immigrants, there.

The two major facets of the issues of Immigration are intertwined, but seperate.
Border Security is the Federal's primary responsibility, as per the Constitution. It is failing in fulfilling that Responsibility.

The secondary issue, those migrants that are in the US, now, is more complex. It is though, solvable.
Removing some of the migrants from US society, returning them to their "home" countries, while allowing others to remain in the US will be a Challenge.
It will be expensive.
If the effort fails the "underground" in the US will continue to flourish, to the detrement of the Republic.

Myself, though, I will be a counter migrant. A million USD goes alot further in Panama than here.

Far enough to enjoy the next 20 years without worry or dismay at the economic basket case the Skull and Bones Program has created in the US for the next generation of Americans.

4/27/2006 07:11:00 AM  
Blogger 2164th said...

See if we had smart politicians, we could persuade Mexico to pump an extra million barrels of oil a day and enter into a long term contract say ten years @ $50 a barrel with the revenue over the marginal extraction cost, probably $30 per barrel generating $30,000,000 a day or$10.8 billion dollars a year. That money could support the issuance of $162 billion dollars in Infrastructure and Industrial bonds. It would create ten million new jobs in Mexico.

But it is hard being President.

4/27/2006 07:26:00 AM  
Blogger Evan said...

While Border's, Comedy Central and Jyllands-Posten probably won't appreciate being lumped in with the Pascha brothel in Cologne...,

I hope this is an unchanged borrowing from German, as (unless I am mistaken) "Pascha" is how, in English anyway, the Orthodox Church of America refer to Easter.

Then again even if that is the intent I wouldn't expect Orthodox Christians to be issuing any death threats.

4/27/2006 08:03:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

The Ghoul Guy neglected to mention that the "total" cost to the County of Los Angeles, CA of each undocumented family is ~$700/month, not the $230 for the welfare payments to the kiddies alone.

4/27/2006 08:28:00 AM  
Blogger Ash said...

Why do you assume each undocumented family is collecting welfare?

4/27/2006 08:30:00 AM  
Blogger AspergersGentleman said...

hey yah i have to understand how the thirty percent of undocumented families collect what? no welfare at ALL and many do great feats of citizenship. they shop and sing and dance like everyone else and anyone who thinks they should be INSULTED should shutup and remember their own lack of documentation:

have you ever stole wireless?
have you ever pirated dvds/anime/manga/videogames?

for example:
do you need to get special documents when you sign onto WoW? No! because there is a community that understands open source citizenship is the wtg and nething else will hurt everyone in the long run

if a business decided it would not honor your coupons if you were an aborted baby, you would prevent millions of people from becoming productive because you were too narrow minded to see them as anything but bloody widdle baby fetuses

4/27/2006 08:40:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Actually, any bean counters out there?

How did ghoulio arrive at the number of families?
...seems it would be better to divide the *total* cost by the total number of people:
At this riduculous hour, I get $5,000 per individual!

4/27/2006 08:41:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

The concept is:
An "average"
of the figures.
Ta Da!
("Average" can be found in OLD Text Books)

4/27/2006 08:44:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Look at this Ash:
If the average cost per undocked person is $5000/year,
The MONTHLY cost can be arrived at by dividing 5000 by 12!
Ain't Math Grand?
($416/Month, Per Person)

4/27/2006 08:53:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

So, a lot of the
"Lobbying for Lawlessness"tm
comes from the PROVIDERS of the goodies, since the recipients only receive 1/3 of the loot, in direct welfare payments.
Good old Socialism.

4/27/2006 09:05:00 AM  
Blogger Ash said...


I see, you are pulling your numbers from that Daily News article. If we accept those numbers as representing the truth there are about 100,000 children, whom are US citizens (they were born in the US) who collect approx. 276 million in welfare. That comes to approx. 230 per month per child.

4/27/2006 09:21:00 AM  
Blogger 2164th said...


The problem will become apparent when the undocumented become entitled. They are under the radar now, but when they are entitled they will get what is then their right. If you do not see that, you do not want to see that. You are already entitled.

4/27/2006 09:28:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

If the US was an open source Country, I'd not care, but the Congress, in 1988, I think, created US Immigration Policy, it is NOT an open source system that was designed or written into Law.

If we need or want that type of Border, vote for it.
But until the Law is changed, it should be enforced.

To argue otherwise is to degrade the value of the Republic, it's Constitution, Laws and Regulations.

Who gets to decide which Laws should be ignored?

Selective Enforcement of the Law is a distaster for any free people.

4/27/2006 09:28:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Tell me , ash.
If the parents of those US by birth children were deported would they take the children with them, or leave those toddlers & school age kids behind?

My guess is the kids would be going "home" with mom & dad. If not the parents of those children are and would not be the kind of folk we'd want to import.

In the past twenty years wmy family have heped three people gain legal status in the US. In each case we had to promise to support the individual so they would not become a "burden" to Society.

Who guarentees this for the 12 million illegal folk, that they are "self sufficent"?

Why no one, so many become Societial burdens. The "illegals" in many cases would never have gained legal access to US. They did and do not qualify for admittance to the US clubhouse.

Respect the Law or change it, but 'til it's changed, enforce it.
To do less, for the President, is tantamount to Treason.
He, the President has failed in his Primary responsibility. While the US is being invaded the US Army is off chasing border bandits, in Iraq.

4/27/2006 09:40:00 AM  
Blogger Ash said...


if the undocumented become entitled it does not necessarily follow that they all will claim their entitlement. Like many Americans they may find it is more advantageous to work and earn then to collect welfare.

I read an interesting op/ed piece awhile back where the author argued that since we are in favor of free trade and the mobility of capital that we should also urge that labor also should be entitled a similar mobility.

I found the article and excerpt:

"Take those huge protests by illegal, mainly Mexican, workers in the United States. Under globalization, the owners of capital get to take their operations anywhere. So they threaten Canadian workers with moving to the southern U.S., if they don't get concessions. Then they threaten workers in the southern U.S. with going to Mexico (and then to China etc.)."

I also found this line interesting:

"“Great wealth is not earned,” wrote editor Atkinson. “There are many words to describe the process but earned is not one of them.”"

4/27/2006 09:41:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

As I said, ash, let the Congress have the debate and change the Law, if required.

Until there is a "new" Law, I have yet to hear a reasonable rationalization for ignoring the old.

If we want a "Globalized Labor Market", within our Borders, let US have the debate and vote. So far that is not a popular position. Perhaps that will change, doubt it, though.

4/27/2006 09:48:00 AM  
Blogger Ash said...

Desert Rat,

I thought of you when and your hard core Law and Order manifesto's when I read this article yesterday:

"A small, troubled high school in East Harlem seemed an unlikely place to find students for a nationwide robot-building contest, but when a neighborhood after-school program started a team last winter, 19 students signed up. One was Amadou Ly, a senior who had been fending for himself since he was 14.

The project had only one computer and no real work space. Engineering advice came from an elevator mechanic and a machinist's son without a college degree. But in an upset that astonished its sponsors, the rookie team from East Harlem won the regional competition last month, beating rivals from elite schools like Stuyvesant in Manhattan and the Bronx High School of Science for a chance to compete in the national robotics finals in Atlanta that begins tomorrow.

Yet for Amadou, who helps operate the robot the team built, success has come at a price. As the group prepared for the flight to Atlanta today, he was forced to reveal his secret: He is an illegal immigrant from Senegal, with no ID to allow him to board a plane. Left here long ago by his mother, he has no way to attend the college that has accepted him, and only a slim chance to win his two-year court battle against deportation."

I'm sure you are familiar with America's history as an immigrant nation, the Statue of Liberty, and the bootstrapping self help that is at the backbone of the American zeitgist and I'm puzzled by the xenophopia expressed by so many in the US petrified at the thought of people in pursuit of the American Dream.

4/27/2006 09:49:00 AM  
Blogger Habu_1 said...

Well, I see we've moved the discusion to our uncontrolled border(s) situation. Good topic.

I'm agin' hav'in furin'rs com'in here. Just plain agin it. They give off bad smells.

Ash ...why do we assume all illegals collect welfare etc...
well...ALL scientific and socioeconomic inquiry begins with an assumption. So it's rational to to begin there. If you've ever been around them they can tell you more about how to work our systems than your congress or senate can.
And the biggest naughty they perpetrate now is their desire NOT to assimilate but take over.

I wuz a bush voter but the boy's done got crazy. Hell who says we can't herd 'em back over the Rio Grande. We herded the injuns back in the 1870-90 to hither and yon.

Yep herd 'em ..rawhide, yippee..

4/27/2006 09:51:00 AM  
Blogger Bully Magnet said...

Why stop at Iran and Saudi Arabia? Costa Rica surely has followers of Mohammed, as do Poland, Argentina, Sweden, etc. If being a country of Muslims means that the Prophet a priori endorses your flag, then why only complain about the majority Muslim nations? Does the Prophet not care about the Serbian Muslims or the flag?

And of course how does anyone know that these guys actually were Muslim? They had masks on so I assume none of them left any indication of their identity.

4/27/2006 09:58:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

So there you have the nub of the problem, ash.
A nice, intelligent young person is a criminal. That is the Law.

We are a Nation of Laws, that is all the Republic is, really.

To allow a President to ignore those Laws is more dangerous to the Republic than all the NSA wiretaps in the WoT could ever be.

It allows the Executive to rule by decree, ignoring the Will of the People, as produced by our Constitutional System. That is by far the greatest threat to US freedoms that there could ever be.

There are over 4,000 open murder warrants for suspects that have fled home to Mexico. There have been many more than that number detained and convicted in the US.
So the "death toll" from the Southern Invasion is already higher than the Mohammedan attacks of 9-11 and the War that followed, as well as the continued threat.
Just not as dramatic.

4/27/2006 10:01:00 AM  
Blogger 5050noline said...

Both Iranian and Saudi flags have 'Allah' writ thereon in 'worm' writing.

I guess it doesn't look too good on the side of a brothel, but then their heaven is a bordello with 72 virgins and flowing wine, is it not??

4/27/2006 10:36:00 AM  
Blogger Habu_1 said...

It's ok folks. The Minute Men & Ladies are gonna get the job done.
Fences at first.
IR equipment.

They'll call the US Border Patrol at Crispy Creme. They'll assess their days til reitrement or how much an attorney for their defense will cost them and they'll respond in a day or two.
By them the Vincente's coke handlers will have passed the stuff through the holes in the fence, the pachuchos will have stepped on the haul 4:1 or 5:1 and it's back to the Crispy Creme.
No one feelings hurt, no gunplay, just kids hav'in fun.

4/27/2006 10:43:00 AM  
Blogger Habu_1 said...

next up..proofreading and typing lessons

4/27/2006 10:47:00 AM  
Blogger skipsailing said...

Ash is using a technique I've seen in action for years.

Almost twenty years on the border has lead me to conclude that the immigrants are a problem for the US.

ash, I'm amazed that the protagonist in your story wasn't on an iron lung or something. It's all just part of the good old bleeding heart approach to issues that in reality need hard headed action.

the flood tide of illegals from latin america is simply overwhelming the social structures in the territories near the border.

it's a Federal issue, but that hasn't prevented local politicians from attempting to score cheap points via demagogery.

The story is really sad. years ago when Pete Wilson had the unmitigated gall to express the very same concerns that we're accepting as common now he was run out of office after being branded a bigoted xenophobe.

In the mean time I know one hospital that spent 26,000 to fly an injured illegal back to Guatemala because they were concerned about a failure to comply with idiot federal EMTALA regulations.

there will be an endless supply of these stories and people like you will attempt to sway us with them. It won't work. The illegals have worn out their welcome Ash.

4/27/2006 10:55:00 AM  
Blogger Habu_1 said...


George Soros in league with People for the America(s) Way are going to use the Supreme Court ruling Selo, on takings.
They want to turn the entire southern border into a low rider/hopper car amusement park.
More tax revenue to be redistributed that good old Marxist way. A good Wall Street play would be covered calls on air sickness equipment and neck braces.
Act now and get a free chia burro.

4/27/2006 11:04:00 AM  
Blogger Peter UK said...

"One has to wonder how long it'll be before we're serving roast child with an apple in its mouth".

We are already there the Germans make sausages out of their kid..Bratwurst.wzhao

4/27/2006 12:48:00 PM  
Blogger texasviolinist said...


This is the perennial question for muslims. Do they not believe that people may listen and respond when they raise concerns and objections? This is why they are so marginalized and we dismiss them. The first response is always a violent threat.

4/27/2006 12:57:00 PM  
Blogger Peter UK said...

Amadou can stay Ash can go,problem solved.

4/27/2006 12:57:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Ash, 9:21 AM,
Are you innumerate?

There are TWO totals (2) in the article, one is your number the other is 3 times that:

That would be $690/per month per child, but you LEFT OUT the parents from the larger TOTAL.

Adding the approximately 50 Thousand Adults, you get back closer to MY numbers for the TOTAL of 3/4 of a BILLION Dollars, divided by 156 THOUSAND TOTAL PEOPLE.


4/27/2006 01:04:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Peter, yes:

Ash Can Go!
(Demons Out!)
No More Ash Can!

4/27/2006 01:08:00 PM  
Blogger Ash said...

Which number is 3x that? I just re-read the article and a paragraph with numbers is:

"Antonovich said 98,703 children of 57,458 undocumented parents received Cal-WORKS welfare checks in January, or a total of 156,161 recipients."

What number are you refering to?

4/27/2006 01:12:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"ash, I'm amazed that the protagonist in your story wasn't on an iron lung or something. "
He INVENTED the Iron Lung prior to the disability.

*ALL* other illiterate, innumerate, immigrants were similarly ENABLED before becoming DIFFERENTLY Abled/Entitled.

4/27/2006 01:13:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

""While legal immigration is a positive influence on our culture and economy ... in public safety, health care and public social services, illegals cost COUNTY taxpayers nearly three quarters of a billion dollars a year.""

3/4 of a BILLION Dollars is

$750,000,000 DIVIDED BY
156,000 TOTAL people
Equals (=)
Ta Da!
$5,000 Dollars/person/year.

I WON'T divide by 12 again.
Take my word for it.

4/27/2006 01:18:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Half of the GNP goes into the
Ash Can.
What a WASTE.
Save the Planet:

Stop the Waste Can!

4/27/2006 01:21:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

10:55 AM Skipsailing:
We should add:

BUT then the Courts Threw Out the will of the people, and the Demonization of them, and Pete Wilson Began.

The tale is now spun by everyone, even Hewitt, that fears being simillarly Dehumanized and run from the public square.

4/27/2006 01:26:00 PM  
Blogger Ash said...

ah, doug, I see what number you are working with now. Of course that number is an estimated cost. You could just as well estimate what the benefit they are kicking back in (i.e. through taxes) and possibly come up with a net positive number.

4/27/2006 01:30:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_1 said...

But they live 30-40 to an apartment or old VW camper.
Apart from their bad attitudes and desire to totally FUBAR the USA what's the deal.
PLUS..if each illegal can carry just a half kilo of cocaine or heroin they practically pay for themselves in Hollywood.
You musn't forget the most famous Merilito, Tony Montana, helped the banking industry, spa industry etc...
Naw...lets rodeo 'em back to ole Mexico

4/27/2006 01:31:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Right, Ash.
Poor, non-educated people, exploited for their status, both educational and legal, make more than enough to pay for the rest of our free health care and etc.

That is why ALL the Emergency Rooms in the Area are GONE.
I will WASTE
no more time on the Ash Can.
(Pardon for the wasted pixels to all others)

4/27/2006 01:35:00 PM  
Blogger Alexis said...


I agree that it's a shakedown. Yet, this brothel scene is important less for its intrinsic value on a local level than for its metaphorical value worldwide.

It's about jizya. It's about dhimmitude. It's about the cartoon riots. It's about the fatwa against Salman Rushdie and the recent wave of censorship by Islamists on non-Muslims. It's about Islamists calling us "kaffirs", with all of the baggage (both Muslim and Afrikaner) that word carries with it. It's about Islamists threatening "kaffirs" with torture, mutilation, and death for any perceived slight to their infinitely fragile egos.

It's about the old tradition in Muslim lands of requiring non-Muslims not to build their houses higher than any Muslim house. It's about outrage Islamists feel when they see any "kaffir" skyscraper. It's about fostering a perception about Muslims that they have skins of gossamer against insults.

The brothel shakedown is about organized crime. Taken by itself, it is an event with even less significance in the history of Berlin than the death of Horst Wessel. Yet, taken in context, it is about more than that. It is about men who fly the flag of the Shahada, yet who see their religion as nothing more than a protection racket and their deity as nothing more than a gang mascot.

This brothel shakedown is in the process of being turned into a metaphor for the Islamist campaign to turn the rest of humanity into helots for their neo-Spartan ideology. Folks in Sharjah ought to be concerned about that.

4/27/2006 01:36:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Sorry, Habu, missed your post.
Exactly Right!
Power to La Raza!

4/27/2006 01:37:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

White Racist Misogynist Homophobe Xenophobe BIGOTS are ALSO Kaffur.

4/27/2006 01:39:00 PM  
Blogger Alexis said...

I think there is an effective means for German working girls to retaliate against the thugs. If German girls refuse to service anyone from Iran or Saudi Arabia, that may send a message.

Somehow, I suspect some of them may already be doing that...

4/27/2006 01:41:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_1 said...

It sounds like a good number of you are ready to take up arms and actually defend the country ..welcome...
Muslims ..waste 'em
Mexicans ..for now just deport the illegals, notify Mexico that future invaders will be shot once they cross the border....
Buy the way where IS Tawanna Brawley?

It doesn't take all this math ..they still can't square the circle. Just takes BRASS.

4/27/2006 01:44:00 PM  
Blogger Alexis said...


You're right.

I have sometimes wondered what would happen if an historical echo of Steve Biko's "black consciousness" movement happened, except now we'd be talking about "Kaffir Consciousness". And just as "BC" was built around opposing the Afrikaner racism of South African apartheid, "Kaffir Consciousness" would be built around opposing the Arab racism of Islamism.

I've also wondered what would happen if there were a rock band called "War Against Islam". Perhaps they could wear Wagneresque "Viking" helmets and proclaim, "there is no god but Loki and Ragnar is his prophet".

There is so much about our times that is ripe with parody, and yet our jesters seem to be too scared to laugh.

4/27/2006 01:58:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"Kaffir Consciousness"
In WW II they were known as
"Patriotic Americans"

Defeating the Nazis then, as we need to do now.

4/27/2006 02:02:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

And, as in WWII,
we must make deals with the Socialist Devils in pursuit of the War Effort.
The Post War Battle against the Socialists can then resume in full.
But Time is short:
No Time for a Cold War this time!

4/27/2006 02:05:00 PM  
Blogger bobalharb said...

There is no god but Loki, and Ragnarr is his prophet--man, do I like that! Ragnarr being a distant relative of mine. Descended from the prophet, ahhh...

4/27/2006 02:30:00 PM  
Blogger Esbiem said...

Well from now on let use depict the flags of Saudi Arabia and Iran a black rectangles. I think that says it all.

4/27/2006 02:36:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_1 said...

What we need is page out of the Oakland Black Panther movement, with a little bit of Calypso Louie thrown in for fun


Just like the Black Panthers did on the steps of the Oakland City Hall we all carry long guns. Shoutguns are best. They don't and shouldn't be loaded at that time.
On the appointed day all the participants choose a mosque to surround or protest.
Chanting all the way. Peaceful calm within the to see it ... ah to dream ..

4/27/2006 02:55:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_1 said...

that would be ..shotguns

4/27/2006 02:58:00 PM  
Blogger bobalharb said...

How about--Hey, hey, ho, ho--Ragnarr yes, Mohammad no--All the muzzies got to go----intellectually vacuous, but catchy

4/27/2006 03:07:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_1 said...

....and SPECIAL GUEST appearance by ARNOLD the PIG from Green Acres...

Pork, the other white meat.

4/27/2006 03:09:00 PM  
Blogger Habu_1 said...

Bobalharb you genius...catchy is what we want ...

Get the Oscar Meyer weiner van there..
Throw the pigskin around...
Carwash across the street with 72 bikini clad virgin car washers..

4/27/2006 03:15:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

'Cause if I was an Oscar Meyer Weiner,
Then Everyone Would be in Love w/Me!

4/27/2006 03:48:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

We could set up a tent for the shogunate, and arm them with shoutguns.

4/27/2006 03:57:00 PM  
Blogger sam said...

Eye on the Middle East -- Zarqawi Video Signals Shifting Landscape for Al Qaeda:

"Zarqawi's speech is now more in line with Al Qaeda thinking," says Al Jazeera correspondent in Amman, Yaser Abu Helalah. "Al Zarqawi used political language rather than pure religious concepts, avoided mentioning things that may create divisions, refrained from attacking any particular group by name, and even softened his position toward the Shiites, especially when compared to his previous speeches" in which he declared an absolute war on them.

Helalah sees Zarqawi's choice of military clothes and machine gun as indicative of his renewed closeness to Bin Laden, who dressed in a similar fashion in earlier videos.

Zarqawi Video

4/27/2006 05:00:00 PM  
Blogger bobalharb said...

How does it go--Russia is an enigma wrapped in a mystery inside a question or something like that. The Israelis just launched a really good spy satellite--on a Russian rocket from Russian Siberian spaceport--to keep track of things in Iran. Russia has been aiding and abetting Iran all along. Help them start up a nuke program and push it along. Just the money to be made I quess, cash in from both sides. Along with the President's other failings of late, add to them that he is not a good judge of character.."I looked into Putty's eyes,etc..." I can't figure the Russians. If I were a Russian I would not want a nuclear armed Iran.

4/27/2006 05:10:00 PM  
Blogger sam said...

WRAPUP 3-Atom watchdog report likely to find Iran defying UN:

The world's nuclear watchdog, which reports to the U.N. Security Council on Friday, is likely to confirm Iran has flouted demands to stop enriching uranium, a verdict that could unleash moves to hit Tehran with sanctions.

Mark Fitzpatrick, nuclear analyst at the International Institute for Strategic Studies in London, said world leaders would look for any substantiation in the report of Iran's claims to rapid progress toward mastering the enrichment process.

"Answers to such questions will be important in helping the world understand the degree of urgency of the crisis and scope for diplomacy. If the IAEA cannot say much about Iran's progress, then policy-makers will rely more on worst-case scenarios," he told Reuters.

Watchdog Report

4/27/2006 05:45:00 PM  
Blogger bobalharb said...

Here is a link to the Israeli satellite launch from Russia.

4/27/2006 05:53:00 PM  
Blogger 2164th said...

The Islamic commandment to wear the veil merely requires women to cover their breasts, not their faces. Last week, this statement by Sudanese Muslim leader Hasan al-Turabi resulted in accusations of apostasy - betrayal of one's religion. He has since been officially charged. The incident beautifully illustrates the debate between modernists and fundamentalists within political Islam, which was highlighted again recently by a controversial report from the Dutch Scientific Council for Government Policy (WRR). -This is being reported on Radio Netherlands.

I have stated in previous postings that the big picture problem is a civil war within Islam. Our position should be to let them have a go at it and stand aside. This is pragmatism as we can have little effect for great cost.

4/27/2006 05:56:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

They call that inverted pragmatism in Bakersfield!
...then they write a song about it.
Something about what she did to his life.

4/27/2006 06:02:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Hanson suffered a ruptured appendix on a boat off Libya.
Got off, found a Doc took the cure:
No painkillers after, or four days later on the way home, not even aspirin:
Doc said the upside was he would heal quicker, no constipation, and etc.
Now he's EXPERIENCED Civil War Medicine.
Got to see lots of Libyan Govt officials while lying on his back.
Should be good.
He was impressed.

4/27/2006 06:06:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

We are now the only country in the world that grants citizenship for being born.
Canada got rid of that practice.
The man that started the movement to do so was a Chinese Canadian.

He convinced them that if they did not change the law, Canada would become China in 20.
Meanwhile we get Orwellian Nonsense from Howdy Doody, aka GWB

4/27/2006 06:16:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"20 years"

4/27/2006 06:17:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...


Gitmo detainee testifies in court:

“My bones, they hurt every time I use the button (to operate the toilet),” he said.
“It causes me a lot of pain.”

To emphasize his point, the detainee removed a gauze wrap from his damaged left hand, keeping it uncovered for most of the 50 minutes he spent testifying from the witness stand.
(wonder if he has an elbow?)

4/27/2006 06:34:00 PM  
Blogger Pangloss said...

Someday someone will unobtrusively take some pictures of prominent Saudis, Egyptians, Pakistanis, Iranians, and so on visiting the brothel or the liquor store. They'll post the pictures out on the Internet.

Butthead: heh heh, that'd be cool.

4/27/2006 09:05:00 PM  
Blogger Starling David Hunter said...

Alexis said... "sdh, I agree that it's a shakedown. Yet, this brothel scene is important less for its intrinsic value on a local level than for its metaphorical value worldwide."


all the points you state are well-taken. Read all of the posts on your blog this morning. I liked them. I hope you continue writing and developing the ideas further.

4/27/2006 09:08:00 PM  

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