US, Mahdi forces clash
Healing Iraq has news that a US force has clashed with Moqtada al Sadr's troops:
American forces clashed with Mahdi army militiamen at the Ur district (Hayy Ur), west of Sadr city in Baghdad. It seems an American force attempted to raid a husseiniya in the area and was resisted by militiamen inside.
Between 18 and 21 militiamen have been killed, and the Al-Mustafa Husseiniya was reported to be badly damaged in the ensuing firefight.
I was on the phone with a colleague who lived there and he described it as a battlefield. Apache helicopters and jet fighters are still circling the area.
Al-Iraqiya TV just aired some images from the husseiniya. 17 'guards' were killed. One of the corpses carried a Da'wa party (Iraq organisation) ID, and another carried an ID issued by the Islamic Conference of Iraqi Tribes.
Someone in the background was asking the cameraman to film grenades lying around the corpses, to which the cameraman responded: "I can't show our guys' grenades."
"No, these are American grenades," the man in the background explained.
"Oh, okay I'll film them."
Al-Iraqiya TV was very critical of the attack, and is describing those killed as martyrs.
The BBC confirms the clash.
At least 18 Iraqis have died in clashes between US troops and militants loyal to Shia cleric Moqtada al-Sadr at a Baghdad mosque, Iraqi sources report. The US military said it was investigating the reports, which came from Iraqi police, medical sources and Mr Sadr's aides. "The American forces went into Mustafa mosque at prayers and killed more than 20 worshippers," Hazim al-Araji told Reuters news agency, citing a larger death toll than the 18 counted by medical sources. AFP news agency said residents close to the scene reported hearing gunfire and ambulances, while black-clad members of Mr Sadr's Mehdi Army could be seen in the streets.
Update
Bill Roggio's post on the US clashes with the Mahdi Army are well worth reading.
The impending fight against the Shiite militias, and particularly Sadr's Mahdi Army, has been telegraphed for some time. On March 18, Strategy Page predicted the ensuing conflict:
The U.S. has told Iran that the Iraqi Shia militias being supported by Iran (the Sadr and Badr organizations) are going to get taken apart soon, and Iran is well advised to back off when this happens. ...
Earlier this week, Zalmay Khalilzad, the U.S. Ambassador to Iraq, accused Iran of sponsoring the Shiite militias and inciting sectarian violence, and alluded to a future reckonning with the militias; "The militias haven't been focused on decisively yet ...
The move against Sadr's militia and elements in the Interior Ministry may be isolated incidents, or may be the opening rounds of a campaign to fangled the radical Shiite elements inside and outside the government. If the move is a concerted campaign against the radical militias, this indicates the U.S. and Iraqi Army are calculating there is enough 'space' to take on a second front; the security forces can safely handle both the Sunni led insurgency and combat operations against Sadr's Madhi Army. Another possibility is the rogue militias can no longer safely be ignored, as their actions have now exceeding the threshold of tolerable violence and threaten to plunge the nation into civil war.
Commentary
Earlier, Zeyad at Healing Iraq had reported on the Mogadishu style desecration of a Sunni clerics corpse, as Sadr's men dragged his body around like a sack of trash. Zeyad said, "Note that life looks absolutely normal in the surroundings. You can see children running about, stores open, religious holiday flags and even a traffic jam. Perhaps Ralph Peters will happen to drive by with an American army patrol and enjoy the scene of children cheering for the troops, while wondering where his civil war is, dude."
Additional information in via the International Herald Tribune reports that Iraqi forces were active in this raid. The article details other actions which Iraqi troops have been involved with, but which required American backup. Bill Roggio has an update with finer grained detail on the units involved: "elements of the 1st Iraqi Special Operations Forces Brigade..." with "U.S. Special Operations Forces... in an advisory capacity only." Plus some discussion on whether the building raided was a full-fledged mosque or a "prayer room". The participation of Iraqi forces is good news, as it suggests a that some Iraqi officials are onboard.
The spin is already in. The BBC is reporting "The American forces went into Mustafa mosque at prayers and killed more than 20 worshippers". Healing Iraq notes that even on tape an Arabic speaking listener can hear the cameraman saying:
Someone in the background was asking the cameraman to film grenades lying around the corpses, to which the cameraman responded: "I can't show our guys' grenades."
"No, these are American grenades," the man in the background explained.
"Oh, okay I'll film them."
Al-Iraqiya TV was very critical of the attack, and is describing those killed as martyrs.
So "martyrs" it is.
If things don't fall apart in the coming days then the crisis will probably have passed. But the reaction of the Shi'a to this attack bears watching. From events in the past, I don't really expect any gratitude to be shown by either Sunni or Shi'a leaders for actions taken by the US to protect them against the depredations of militias. There might be some "gratitude" but what's more important is simply keeping people quiet and safe. Just my opinion.
posted by wretchardthecat at 3/26/2006 12:41:00 PM
154 Comments:
"Perhaps Ralph Peters will happen to drive by with an American army patrol and enjoy the scene of children cheering for the troops, while wondering where his civil war is, dude."
---
I know some folks that are going to get a wry smile out of that one.
...but then, they have a warped sense of humor. ;-)
" This is one Iraqi habit that requires intervention"
---
What if big pharma could just produce enough hormones for treatment of all males 18-32?
Experience since 911 suggests that the old perceptual filters don't work so well. People laugh while they kill, cut their heads in ecstasy, play with body parts, refuse to thank their rescuers, thank the people who kidnap them, etc. It's a madhouse. So things simply have to be done by the numbers. If the soundtrack can be made to sync with the video, fine, but otherwise just keep the footage rolling.
amazing, armed men INSIDE an islamic building?
who would have thought, i bet most churches and synaguages dont have the fire power of a small nation.
Is it not illegal for citizens of iraq to have automatic weapons?
certainly the islamic peoples in all the world owe a thanks to the OIF for getting these UN-islamic/fake islamic people from islamic buildings!
'Rat's 9:10 AM post in previous thread has some interesting commentary on this "event."
"Is it not illegal for citizens of iraq to have automatic weapons?"
---
I thought they were *required.*
'Rat quotes:
" ... Today it was all out war in Baghdad.
Please don’t ask me whether I believe Iraq is on the verge of civil war yet or not. I have never experienced a civil war before, only regular ones. All I see is that both sides are engaged in tit-for-tat lynchings and summary executions. I see governmental forces openly taking sides or stepping aside. I see an occupation force that is clueless about what is going on in the country. I see politicians that distrust each other and continue to flame the situation for their own personal interests. I see Islamic clerics delivering fiery sermons against each other, then smile and hug each other at the end of the day in staged PR stunts. I see the country breaking into pieces. ... "
" ... I was stopped in my own neighbourhood yesterday by a watch team and questioned where I live and what I was doing in that area. I see other people curiously staring in each other’s faces on the street. I see hundreds of people disappearing in the middle of the night and their corpses surfacing next day with electric drill holes in them. I see people blown up to smithereens because a brainwashed virgin seeker targeted a crowded market or café. I see all that and more.
Don’t you dare chastise me for writing about what I see in my country. ... "
"From with a hat tip to Steve @ threatswatch.The entire blog is worth reading, these are just some excerpts.
The Australian is reporting that American forces are apparently also going after the "death squads":
"US troops mounted two raids against Iraqi Shiite forces in Baghdad today, killing up to 20 gunmen in a raid on a radical mosque and arresting more than 40 Interior Ministry personnel guarding a secret prison.
Details were sketchy but the two operations looked like US strikes against sectarian Shiite militias of the kind the US ambassador said yesterday must be eliminated if Iraq is to form a unity government and halt a slide toward civil war.
The US military made no immediate official comment and a senior Interior Ministry official denied the arrests of its personnel at a facility in central Baghdad where government and political sources said US troops freed 17 foreign prisoners.
But a US source confirmed that American and Iraqi forces had detained 41 Interior Ministry personnel guarding a secret bunker complex.
Most foreigners in detention are accused of being Sunni al-Qaeda fighters who come to Iraq to fight Americans and Shiites.
In November, US troops freed 173 mostly Sunni prisoners, some of whom had been tortured, from a secret Interior Ministry facility in Baghdad.
Police sources said 20 Mehdi Army fighters were killed in the fighting, close to Sadr's stronghold in the Sadr City slum, and five vehicles belonging to the militia were burned.
A senior aide to Sadr, in comments capable of inflaming passions among the radical cleric's supporters, accused US troops of shooting dead more than 20 unarmed worshippers at the Mustapha mosque after tying them up. The mosque's faithful follow Sadr but the aide denied they were Mehdi Army gunmen.
"The American forces went into Mustapha mosque at prayers and killed more than 20 worshippers," Hazin al-Araji said.
"They tied them up and shot them."
Earlier, in an unusual admission, Interior Ministry officials said a police major accused of taking part in death squad killings had been arrested in Baquba, north-east of Baghdad.
Arkan al-Bawi, who works in Diyala province north-east of Baghdad and is the brother of the provincial police chief, was detained after visiting the ministry... (snip)"
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,18616269%255E1702,00.html
Some visiting American senators there urging the Iraqi's to pick up the pace on their government-building. I wonder if the Iraqi government said, "we can't until you guys take care of the militias and the death squads."
Sistani:
"Gays Should Be Killed in Worst Way Possible."
---
Odd way to heal Iraq.
One Week in Baghdad
By Zeyad
Special to washingtonpost.com
WEDNESDAY
My neighbors suggested we go out for lunch today. They are a young couple living just across the street, with two kids, a girl and a boy, ages 11 and 5. I often spend time with them in the evening during the curfew, or around tea time. Normally, we just chat about daily news, or share gossip on the comings and goings in our neighborhood over trinkets and cigarettes, with the children fooling around in the background.
I learned from my neighbor's wife that a stray bullet injured her mother's cousin during the firefight in our street three nights ago. It went right through her window and shattered her collarbone. It was tragic, considering that her son was killed just a few months ago by kidnappers after the old widow failed to collect his ransom of $50,000.
We discussed the issue of Abu Ghassan who lives next door to them. He decided to take his family and relocate to Syria after threats from criminals. Abu Ghassan is a very well-to-do businessman and a car battery dealer. His lavish lifestyle brought him unwanted attention in our area, and it took him one failed kidnapping attempt to decide to sell everything and leave.
It was an excruciating scene, watching neighbors of a lifetime carry their suitcases early at dawn to board a SUV to Syria.
Being forced to leave your home is not a trivial affair. The last three years have witnessed scores of Iraqi professionals and businessman leaving to Jordan, Syria or Egypt, a second exodus of Iraqis far more alarming than that of the 90s. The country is slowly being stripped of its intelligentsia, and I fear that soon we will be left only with fanatics inside.
Following the Samarra bombing, many Shi'ite inhabitants of Sunni dominated areas north and west of Baghdad were forced to leave. In the south, a once sizeable Sunni community in Basrah, Nasiriya, Hilla and Samawa is diminishing day by day. Kurds in the north have regressed back behind their borders, further isolating themselves. Iraqi society is falling apart.
It seems that the barrage of bombings, assassinations, detentions and abductions is not enough, so we need one more thing to worry about.
And yes, we were discussing these pleasant issues over lunch. It was a splendid meal of Iraq Masgoof (roasted fish) on a refreshing sunny day at the bank of the Tigris, in the comforting company of family and friends.
---
Surreal Movies were a lot more fun.
Border War
Back at the immigration ceremony, Tancredo thanked the new citizens for coming to the United States "the right way," and urged them to "cast aside loyalties to your old countries and walk with us."
One lucky person walked away with more than a citizenship certificate.
When he heard that a young woman from Mexico had waited more than a year for her paperwork to clear, Tancredo approached her.
He apologized that he was out of the lapel pins he usually hands out.
Instead, he gave her a more personal gift: his American-flag necktie.
"Gracias," she said.
---
But I guess if 5% of the workforce is illegal, we're already screwed:
This rickety economy would COLLAPSE if that were addressed.
It would be worse than WWII, I tell you.
---
So many things are just WAY beyond our abiltity to deal with.
...since we define them as such and pretend we are post-multicultural cripples.
Which becomes our reality.
I'm starting to really dislike folks who come up with fancy reasons why we shouldn't, or CAN'T do anything in our best interests anymore.
Self-Loathers in fancy Suits.
Two OT but related items:
The govt of Afghanistan today announced that they were releasing the man charged with converting to Christianity because of "Lack of information and legal holes in the case".
A female member of the Afghai Parliment denounced Yale University's decision to admit a member of the Taliban, saying that the action "endangered democracy in Afghanistan."
Too bad that they are letting the Christian guy in Afghanistan go. I was going to suggest we work out a trade, him for the Yale Taliban.
I saw a report that said the current attacks on militias were aimed at the militias that the Iranians supported.
It looks like clearing the rear for moves against Iran.
Not too many folks have sterling records of prediction, so maybe you could be easier on yourself and call it "good sense," bobalharb.
Plus, if he's wrong, we'll just blame it on the Joos.
bobalharb,
I was just reading "No True Glory", Bing West's account of Fallujahs 1 and 2. A lot of people with the best intelligence, sterling records, and good will get it wrong all the time. They put their trust in such and such sheik, such and such imam. Or didn't put their trust in such and such sheik. Or think something has sputtered out when it has morphed. Or headed west to rescue a squad when it was east of them.
But the ones that made it in the end were those who were able to keep their eye on the goal, despite the bumps in the road. So go ahead and predict. The worst can happen is you'll be proven human.
Zeyad lost my trust with this post, his translation of the anti-gays fatwa from Sistani's website.
He neglects to mention that the fatwa is THREE years old. Someone combed Sistani's website for inflamatory material.
MEMRI heavily edited and mistranslated the Sultan/Al-Kouly debate.
Aren't you getting tired of being played for suckas? You're useful idiots for the salafists, they use this stuff to show the moderate muslims that americans will always despise them and treat them as barbarian inferiors.
feh.
bobalharb, i really think you mean ul harb, not al harb.
dar ul harb is world of war, dar al harb is world the war.
What I'd like to know is, since when are Jooish lawyers the vessels of any kind of wisdom?
People laugh while they kill, cut their heads in ecstasy, play with body parts, refuse to thank their rescuers, thank the people who kidnap them, etc. It's a madhouse. So things simply have to be done by the numbers.
There is a method to the madness. The intention is to drive people (us as well as them) insane. The objective is to create the conditions necessary for a complete breakdown of civilization. Only then can the Enemy hope to step and take over. We are being assaulted (mentally) from the inside by the Left Wingers, and the outside from the Durka-Durka's. What must be driven out are all of the normal perspectives. Therefore, our goal must be to maintain a flexible, yet sensible stance in the face of horrorism. Just my opinion: Stop equivocating. Calm down. Shoot straight. Don't miss.
Mo: "He neglects to mention that the fatwa is THREE years old."
Maybe you can explain how does that make any difference.
Al-Qaida's WMD option:
President Bush says frequently "we are fighting them over there so they won't come over here." "Them" are transnational terrorists and "over there" is Iraq.
"The Race Between Cooperation and Catastrophe," or why "the (nuclear) threat is outrunning our response," is how Sam Nunn, the former senator and co-chairman of the Nuclear Threat Initiative, describes an overarching terrorist construct.
Another Nunn scenario has a terrorist group with insider help acquiring a radiological source from an industrial or medical facility, say cesium-137 in the form of powdered cesium chloride.
Al-Qaida's WMD
Regarding Iraq splitting into three, I don't see what the problem is. For the US whatever happens we will be in Kurdistan, with basing rights and intelligence officers on the ground.
As a general model in the Middle east, dividing into ethnically and religiously homogenous areas may make the best sense. Build some big thick walls at the borders to slow down the bullets and shrapnel flying back and forth. Give them 500 years and they will settle down.
Bob,
You didn't post the opinion of an Eskimo. You didn't post the opinion of your wife either. You didn't even post your opinion. Why did you post the opinion of a Jooish lawyer?
methuselah:
yes.
someone of ill intent combed Sistani's archives for the inflammatory material that fed the newspaper article.
MEMRI mistranslated and heavily editted the Sultan/Al-Khouly debate.
the rightside blogverse is being played for suckas.
You are letting MEMRI and Zeyad shape opinions here by omitting and falsifying data.
i thought this was the fact-checking blogverse.
my bad.
Zeyad lost my trust with this post, his translation of the anti-gays fatwa from Sistani's website.
He neglects to mention that the fatwa is THREE years old.
salman rushdie's fatwa is from 1988, that's almost, gosh 20 YRS OLD!
guess what? Islam has been issuing these drops (pig shit) of wisdom since Mohammed had his 1st chance at murder and mayhem...
sorry, 3 years or 1500 years, i am tired of these "men" of peace declaring who should keep their heads and those that should not...
bobalharb,
Don't take that guy seriously:
He drills holes in people's heads just like the Death Squads.
...and besides, he's Jooish.
Mo, if MEMRI mistranslated, how do explain Wafa's answer? Was that a mistranslation as well?
If things don't fall apart in the coming days ...
This is Iraq. My guess is that things will definitely fall apart in the coming days.
In Placid Iraqi Kurdistan, Strife to the South Elicits Little Sympathy
It is not an unusual view here. Kurdistan may be part of Iraq in the legal sense, but most Kurds view the Arabs, whether Sunni or Shiite, as foreign oppressors. The fact that the Arabs are now fighting among themselves evokes little sympathy.
Bob,
I'm still curious what went into your thought process. Why is a Jooish lawyer's opinion more letimate than yours. You follow these things just as closely.
" Why is a Jooish lawyer's opinion more letimate than yours"
---
That's just flat out provocative.
Everybody knows how you guys are endowed.
(and pork let it slip out here once)
"12"
How come Turkey is always granted unstopable powers?
---
Did they acheive superpower status when I wasn't looking, or was it when they denied the 4ID?
Mika has a point--one's Jewish associates ain't the early-warning bells for the mid-east anymore, the whole country is as aware thru Iraq as thru Israel. We all became Jews--for awhile at least--on 911, just as we did once before, on Dec 7, 1941.
I meant 12"
Doug,
That's a mistranslation. What Pork said is that he's 12' tall.
===
6:00 PM should read:
.., how to explain Wafa's answer?
Yeah I'm waiting for the answer to that 6 o'clock too.
I still like the construction of my Pork statement.
I don't know what a SOMA is, but it seems like if Kurdistan was separate, it would make an ideal place for basing.
And Turkey could stuff it.
Stuffed Turkey.
:-)
Doug,
Turkey has a huge army, with lots of Israeli hardware. Should the US just watch, one on one on Europe, the Turks will go past the Gates of Vienna.
ADE,
Yeah, I remember linking to something about MUSLIMS being killed by Arabs in Africa.
ADE,
Well, if he's 12' tall, it could be. :)
6:43 PM,
Another reason to have plenty of Airpower in Kurdistan:
F-em.
" Should the US just watch"
---
The obvious question then is,
WHY should we?
Iraqi doctor says he killed police:
A tape of the confession, which officials with the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan said may have been coerced, was broadcast on Kurdish TV Sunday.
In explaining the alleged murders Taie said, "I used to stop the breathing machines or cut the electricity in the operations room or reopen the wounds."
Iraqi Doctor
Who would be forcing them, and how?
(A dumb Gentile question, I know, but...)
Doug,
Why should we not? Let them contemplate the consequences of, among many other things, forcing a fellow ally and NATO member into the the arms of the Russkies. Vladik will give the Turks the Nuclear umbrella they lack.
I'm just out of it.
Why we have to care about the UN.
Why we can't do what's in our interest wrt Kurdistan.
Why a fractured place deserves precident over a whole Kurdistan.
etc.
Simple minded Okie from Muskogee.
Hey, YOU'RE the guy with the hat around here:
You switched the order of the comments just to really mess with my mind!
Remember, from the other thread:
"But the real story was the involvement of France and Germany. Turkey craves admission to the EU. The French especially spread it around that if Turkey allowed the transit, they would never get in."
Why would the French do that? Why would the French want to see Turkey, a NATO ally, allied against the US and in the same axis as the Russians?
Maybe it's the same reason I don't get why we CAN'T address illegal workers by paying more for the jobs they do.
Simple solutions for simple minds.
(deep down inside, I call it corruption)
So the French are still calling the shots for us?
How about the POV of that Okie we're laughin at?
Are we always at the mercy of EVERYBODY?
Mercy Me!
---
I knew you'd love it Mat,
now edukate me.
Damn, now he's back to INVISIBLE deletions.
Otherwise known as...
Trish,
You're the one predicting a Civil War being likely.
Why do we plan on something that is no longer recognizable by present definition?
...whereas Kurdistan remains Kurdistan if we're smart enough to keep it that way.
(I bet it's the OIL!)
Shiite leader: Iran not interfering in Iraq:
Last week, Gen. George Casey, who oversees U.S. troops in Iraq, said that almost all of the weapons and ammunition used by Iraqi insurgents comes from inside the country, but added that there is some evidence that bomb technology is being imported from Iran.
Iran -- once branded by Bush as part of an "axis of evil" -- has denied interference inside Iraq's borders.
Iran not Interfering
So the French are still calling the shots for us?
Sorry, Doug. You already basically answered that question at 6:35 PM. There was no point in keeping mine.
"Who wants an independent Kurdistan - other than the Kurds? No one. Including us"
---
And the why is what Mat has yet to drill through my thick skull.
I come seeking enlightenment, but I'm so dim no-one wants to waste the time.
boo-hoo.
I would respond that our boys pull the pins before they throw their grenades....
Unlike Sadr's boys...
I don't see why you predict a Civil War, and then plan as if it won't happen, that's all.
...and does everyone immediately turn on us for basing military in Kurdistan?
(seems that could insure Turkey that we'd keep the Kurds in line)
Why does everyone else dictate what we do?
Iraqi Kurds Enjoying Life Away From All the Mayhem:
Kurdistan had its own civil war in the 1990s, when its two main political parties fought for control. Many Kurds do not want to become involved in another war. They are also deeply resentful of Iraqi Arabs, who carried out brutal attacks on Kurdish villages during the reign of former president Saddam Hussein.
Evidence of that animosity can be found almost anywhere. At the outdoor book market -- which sits under a vast mural of Sheik Mahmoud al-Hafeed, the rebel leader who is considered the father of modern Kurdistan -- one of the most popular titles is a paperback called The Bloody History of the Arabs: A Summary. On its cover was a lurid color illustration of a hooded skeleton strangling a beautiful young woman.
Iraqi Kurds
Sam,
I think the deal is, we help those that hate us most, and ignore those that support us.
...I'm just a Paleo about that stuff.
That's why we didn't kill Mookie 2 plus years ago, I guess.
"Turkey has at least 12 million Kurds within its borders, and has made clear that it would not tolerate an independent Kurdistan. Iran and Syria have Kurdish populations, too, and would probably also object."
---
I guess Syria and Turkey would just wipe us off the map.
Can't have that.
Why does everyone else dictate what we do?
Turkey, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Ukraine, Georgia, Iraq, Jordan, UAE, Kuwait,..
How many bases do you need? :D
All ur Bases Belong to Us!
HAHAHA!!
The world according to a Dumbass.
Bike time:
Carry on as though the average IQ just shot up here.
My time for bed. Have a good one.
"areas of the country that are "very contested.""
---
Like Baghdad.
As Juan Cole is so happy to point out.
NY Times has a graphic of body distribution around the city.
Backsun.
It looks like Sadr and this thugs have polished the art of propaganda.
Someone in the background was asking the cameraman to film grenades lying around the corpses, to which the cameraman responded: "I can't show our guys' grenades."
"No, these are American grenades," the man in the background explained.
"Oh, okay I'll film them."
I did not know that "American grenades" were so poorly build that a number of them did not explode. I would guess that the "American grenades" were either used by Sadr's thugs during the battle and this thug's got hit before they could use them - or they were intentionally planted at the scene as a propaganda tool.
Also, I believe we should to a better job at countering the enemy's propaganda. The war is now just a propaganda war.
The Kurds are Sunni.
In the ME the smaller a country is the more likely it is to become prey for its neighbors. Dividing Iraq in three will certainly make its neighbors look upon those bits with dripping saliva. To put it another way, there will be continueing strife if Iraq breaks into three. AQ will certainly view these three countries with extreme interest, as will Iran, Syria, and even Jordan.
The oil in Iraq is something that all three ethnic groups want to control so the exact borders of these three countries will not be agreed upon by marquis-de-queensbury's rules.
Having said all that, the Kurds deserve their own country. I'm not sure the Iraqi sunnis or shiites do, but they've got to live somewhere.
Dubai is safe as long as we don't abandon them.
Small place that.
(my night for being difficult)
Doug 7:54:
Ok then, let's vote democrat next time 'round!
Sam 8:53 PM,
In the immortal words of GWB:
"That doesn't make any sense!"
---
But he still ought to have been dead back when he first started killing our troops.
bobalharb thinks he's so brave putting his legal affairs in the hands of a Joo!
That ain't nothin:
I've got one for a Cardiologist!
(Can't afford his son the Lawyer who makes 10 times as much!)
Doug,
Footprints from the Moon..
6:00 meth
obviously, we don't know why the people @ m.e.m.r.i. chose to translate the term mulhidah (the term ibrahim al-khouly used to ask wafa sultan if she is one) as "heretic" and not "atheist".
the term for "apostate" (the punishment for which could be death) is murtadd/murtaddah. and it is highly unlikely that ibrahim al-khouly, being a professor @ al-azhar, mistakenly used the word mulhidah when ACTUALLY he wanted to say murtaddah.
as for al-khouly's answer - the m.e.m.r.i translation was almost right with the phrase "there is no point in rebuking you", but the term 'atb means "rebuke" in the sense of "censure, blame, reproof, reprimand" and here it is clear that his argument is: if you're an atheist, then i cannot say anything if you curse islam, the prophet, the qur'an. he implies that atheists are outside islam and islam has no say over them. it'd be different if wafa sultan had self-identified as a believing muslim - in that case, insulting the religion, the prophet, the qur'an would be a different matter and he (ibrahim al-khouly) would have the right to censure/reprimand/rebuke her.
MEMRI didn't mistranslate anything else that i know of.
they just left out 99% of al-Khouly's argument.
Ok, Meth Head:
Now you gotta 'splain that to me!
Doug,
Nothing to worry 'bout, your heart's in the right place. Now Mo, I'm not so sure about.
(apollo is still downloading)
Dr. Ibrahim Al-Khouli: If you are a heretic, there is no point in rebuking you, since you have blasphemed against Islam, the Prophet, and the Koran...
In other words, you're as good as dead.
aw, they wouldn't do that would they?
for the record, c4 and most joos haters think of me as 10 feet tall with a 12 inch schlong..
reality check: 5 9 (and shrinking), balding, pudgy and a whopping 4 inches on a hot day...
but KNOWING i strike terror in the minds of Islamisits..
PRICELESS
Doug,
Apollo: The God of Light, Healing, Poetry. The God of Prophecy.
More problems in Afghanistan:
This will probably ruffle some feathers, but after the riots over the Mohammed cartoons which is free speech, terrorists blowing up buildings, and now this oppression, I really don't buy the whole "the religion of Islam is peaceful" line we are being fed. I understand there are some folks who live peacefully and still feel like they follow Islam, but they are not according to one Afghan cleric.
A CNN.com article "Clerics to West, Karzai: Back off Christian Convert Case" states that his name is Khoja Ahmad Sediqi, and he says, "The Quran is very clear, and the words of our prophet are very clear. There can only be one outcome: death."
More Problems
A monologue to sleep by. Good night.
Long on Outskirts of Power, Olmert Looks to Lead Israel:
On Sunday, the last legal day for campaigning, Mr. Olmert did not appear in public. Instead, he spoke to Israel Radio, saying Israel needed a debate "to define for ourselves our red lines" before discussions with the United States over borders.
But Mr. Olmert's aim is clear, and in this he is following Mr. Sharon completely. The goal, he said, is to "preserve Israel as a Jewish state with a stable Jewish majority while separating from the Palestinians."
Olmert Looks to Lead
Netanyahu sure knows how to run defense, security, finance, and information policies. There ain't a whole lot he can't do, with brio. Has anybody looked at the markets since he took over as minister of finance?
Bud,
TA Indices
This has been a good one--I need to get back in--the chart looks good as far as higher lows, right here--but the volume confirms aren't quite flashing the 'buy' sign. Long-term holders can buy here, tho--this outfit is a patent generator--
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Btw,
This election cycle is a loser. Too many fractured/ broken parties. There's going to be a consolidation. Olmert is seen as a political loser. He can't even set his own house in order. Natanyahu is not PM material.
Everyone now in the Kadima party will get burned politically. They vacated their seats in Labor and Likud. And Kadima is going nowhere but down.
Israel is going to take on Iran's nuclear program. Nobody trusts Labour to do the job. (Their foreign minister, Shlomo Ben-Ami, parrots Jihadi propaganda lines fer gods sake). Between Shinui and Kadima you're looking at about 20 mandates up for grabs. The vast majority will go to Likud after this election cycle. I hope Livnat makes her move then. I'd like see her as PM.
It is amazing how many strong women are moving to the top--Merkel, Rice, Livnat, Temoshenko.
The problem with this Israel election's 'red line' definition issue is, too few Israelis are thinking big enough. I think the final border needs to include Damascus, or the Golan as a fallback if the Syrians object to Damascus.
I give up on you guys:
The T and A index!
Jeez!
Doug has never really recovered from that trip looking for Sonia.
Seafaring is a bitch:
Now
We're working on
"Brokeback Volcano"
no meth, that is not what he said. that is what memri said he said.
WS: ....I am a secular human being and i do not believe in the supernatural.
IK: An aetheist? [note, he says, mulhidah(aetheist), not murtadd(heretic, apostate)]
WS: But I respect the right of others to believe.
IK: You mean an aetheist?
WS: You can say what you wish.
IK: I am asking you.
WS: I am a secular individual and i do not believe in the supernatural.
IK: I am asking you in order to deal with you using your own system of logic, if you are an aetheist there is no censuring you if you curse Islam's prophet and Islam's Qu'ran.
from page eight of the translation of whole debate.
Al-Kouly uses the word aetheist three times. His school of sharia says that aetheists are outside Islam and cannot be punished for their ignorance.
MEMRI lied.
I agree, Bud.
If it's not a burning emergency, very little thought or planing is accorded to an issue. Everything is done at the last minute, even past the last minute.
I can't say that I blame anyone. Israel's history has been one crisis management after another. There are lots of issue on the plate. Plus, Jews were never good at building Empire. Breaking one apart, now that's a different story. :)
We have a Jihadi Empire to break. Let's get cracking.
===
LOL. You guys.. :)
A Mexican film company is down by the river shooting "Wetback Mountain".
"Al-Kouly uses the word aetheist three times. His school of sharia says that aetheists are outside Islam and cannot be punished for their ignorance."
---
Man, next time I have a knife to my throat, forget that
"Presbyterian" Label.
I AM AN ATHEIST!
OK?
Mo,
Sharia says that atheists are to be killed. As are apostates. If you had a shred of honesty in you would acknowledge that.
Re parliamentary disorganization, it is truly the living proof of the "zionist conspiracy" lie.
"If it's not a burning emergency, very little thought or planing is accorded to an issue. Everything is done at the last minute, even past the last minute."
---
Sounds like the "plan" of my life.
...after I got married.
Doug, you can *say* that, but keep your fingers crossed just in case they kill ya anyway.
Trish,
I'll ask my Jooish lawyer. He would know.
What about that "patriarchal conspiracy" lie?
Maybe them muzzies have a point with that rock thing.
meth, there are at least four different schools of sharia.
Islamic scholars argue constantly about the shades of meaning in the Qu'ran.
MEMRI LIED about the translation to shape peoples perceptions.
do you even care?
He's busy getting a neck brace.
8:51 AM,
Just don't start comparing anything with that "Pork" Guy.
And I'll ask my Jooish slaves, who are building a Giant Pyramid to the Sun God Ra out in the back pasture.
19" sure would be provocative.
Anybody know any Jooish Plastic Surgeons?
of course you don't....i am an idiot.
you have a monolithic pre-fab vision of Islam that has been spoon-fed to you by the clash of civilization morons screaming from their soapboxes here.
the Sultan/Al-Khouly debate was actually about Huntington's clash of civilizations, but Sultan turned it into an attack on Islam, and MEMRI only translated her speaking parts.
Fact check? It is to laff.
you are so blinkered by your prejudice that you don't care if you've been propagandized by MEMRI for their goals.
Call my friend Moses Heston out in L.A., Doug.
:-)
and most interesting, in the call-in poll after the debate on Al-jazeerah, 85% of muslims believe that we are in a clash of civilizations.
they are being propagandized too, and i expect they don't care either, and refuse to acknowledge anything that might challenge their prefabricated opinions of the west.
Matoko, it is the jihadis that are under attack in these threads -- forgive any errors of attribution, they stem from the fact of being attacked not with words, but with guns, bombs, fire, swords, trains planes and automobiles.
Boy, now I know what smoking someone out means,
And it ain't some Richard Gere second hand smoke legislation.
Have you hugged a Jihadi today,
Bud?
If it weren't for the damned MSM propaganda machine, that whole "Crusade" thing wouldn't have happened.
Mo,
I don't know arabic well enough to comment on the quality of the translation. My point is that your complaint is irrelevant. Weather she's an Apostate (which she clearly is by her own admission), or weather she's an Atheist (which she clearly is by her own admission), Al-Khouli makes a direct threat against her by replying: "there is no point in rebuking you, since you have blasphemed against Islam, the Prophet, and the Koran." If she was not in LA, but in Iraq or Iran or any other of your moderate muzi thugocracy during that interview, she'd be dead now. As it is, she has a death sentence on her head for the rest of her life.
" If she was not in LA, but in Iraq or Iran or any other of your moderate muzi thugocracy during that interview, she'd be dead now."
---
NAW!
Say it ain't so!
Boy, have you been BRAINWASHED!
And Mo, thanks for replying to my 8:39 AM in such straight and forthright manner. Which schools of Sharia do not accord Atheists and muslim Apostates the death penalty?
How do they feel about simple minded Okies that grew up around their Bakersfield Friends and Relatives?
Yes, jihadi 'free=speech' means anyone who feels like it is 'free' to invoke the Supreme Being and kill anyone anywhere anytime for their 'speech'.
Few things in life stand out so clearly in their spiritual quality.
I may be an Okie,
But I think
"Spiritual Quality"
In this context is a
Contradiction of Terms.
...but that's just me.
Well, I guess the term is a little skewed toward there being a connection between God and respect for humanity.
And Mo, while you're at it, perhaps you could also explain to us how did Wafa Sultan blaspheme against Islam, the Prophet, and the Koran.
I'd like Netanyahu to implement a Jizya tax on all those that live in israel and do not serve in the IDF. Start with an additional 25% sales tax and and increase it by another 15% for every child in that family. That would qualify Netanyahu as my defense, security, finance minister.
A 'builder', eh...didn't know dat, but the shoe fits.
Mika, I thought it was law, at 18 you go in.
"Netanyahu sure knows how to run defense, security, finance, and information policies."
He doesn't appear to be doing so well at politics. Likud appears to set for a horrible showing in the upcoming polls.
It'll all happen at the last minute.
Bud,
You're looking at 25% of the eligible population that is now exempt. They get about 4 years (3+ 1 yr to recoup) head start in post secondary studies. They don't have the Job headaches that the rest have, when the rest have to do a 1 month service every year. And during that month every year, you lose money because the government doesn't match your salary. And if you decide not to go on to post secondary studies, you also lose about 4 years because during that initial basic training in the army, what salary the army pays you per day you couldn't even buy a falafel.
I see your point. That's a large exempt cohort, considered against a mandated service for the rest.
"there is no point in rebuking you, since you have blasphemed against Islam, the Prophet, and the Koran."
but al-khouly didn't say that!!!
he said "there is no point in censoring you even if you curse Islam's prophet and Islam's Qu'ran" because you are an aetheist and i have no jurisdiction over you.
he asks her if she is an aetheist twice, to make sure.
memri is shaping the translation to their perspective.
MEMRI lies.
Mo,
If she is an atheist, she is by necessity a muslim Apostate, with all that that implies.
Where is Goldstein when I need him. What's the word for logic in Arabic?
Stop dancing on the heads of pins. Stop the killing. Create political parties. Run for office. Stop the killing. Words and blood are connected but are not the same things.
Nobody being killed cares what the killers are saying--they care what the killers are doing.
(ht instap) ...the publicity around the Abdul Rahman case has resulted in a surge of interest in Christianity among the Afghan population...?
link
Always a surprise, those rascally unintended consequences!
yeh--all metaphysics and no humanity makes God pretty easy to ignore, as a matter of observable fact. I mean, what then, is the point? What will be will be. Might as well worship a Bass. And when the mood strike, just kill anybody who might be a Carp, Perch, Bream, Catfish, Goo, or Muskelunge worshipper.
Must read, Claire Berlinski on "Menace in Europe".
Alec "Fat Al" Baldwin hasn't been so much fun since "World Police"!
MEMRI has bias.
That is well known.
Whats funny is that for years Baldwin has been taunting non-libs with that jr high balony -- then Levin and Hannity toss a little of the same back at him, and he goes to pieces and runs away. HAR HAR HAR
When you're "worshipping" with an AK 47, trying to consecrate your faith with American blood, low be the moment of reconning with your god, by the vehicle of psalm 223.
How'd you like the Champion of the Working Class trying to taunt Hannity with "You're nothing but a construction worker from Long Island"?
...did Fat Al lose his sh*t or *what*?
Buddy,
Any other podcasts you recommend subscribing to. I love listening to these on my ipod when I go for my evening walks, or go jogging.
Ha, thanks for the vote of confidence. My jogging music is just the first couple notes of anything.
Buddy,
Glenn and Helen are talking body painting.. That should get the old ticker moving for more than a couple of beats. :)
Jeez, Mika, a link wouldn't hurt --
Whit, that's what astounds me, too. Some liberal, huh? That's probably why he ran, he blew up, shot off his true feelings, then realized it.
So, if Hollywood lefties are not really interested in "social justice" after all, what on earth *is* it they're after?
Maybe they have a stake in the lowering of 'normal' standards of behavior. My strict Baptist Grandparents would not go near a movie threater even back in the old days.
Oddly, the Hollywoods don't even benefit from a healthy economy--the worse the times, the more people want escapism via the movies. The "Golden Age" of Hollywood was "the Depression" for the likes of Fat Al's "nincompoop boob construction workers from Hempstead".
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