Wednesday, November 30, 2005

If ye break faith we shall not sleep

BTW, according to Michelle Malkin, quoting AP, the Flight 93 Crescent of Embrace memorial is history. The interesting thing about this episode is how illustrates that that leftist meme machine isn't irresistible. It has its limits. Once the inappropriateness of the design had been pointed out, whether the result of an unintentional oversight or not, it ran into opposition. Resistance is not futile.


Blogger Ray said...

"Resistance is not futile"

And I refuse to be assimilated.

11/30/2005 09:43:00 PM  
Blogger Cobalt Blue said...

Check the latest on LGF though--the islamic elements seem to have survived the redesign.

11/30/2005 09:53:00 PM  
Blogger sam said...

9/11 memorial changed:

The original design was selected by a jury of 15 made up of design professionals and family and community members and was narrowed down from a pool of 1,011. A date for the opening has not been set.

A smaller memorial is planned for the U.S. Capitol. Advocates have said a Washington tribute is appropriate because the terrorists who hijacked the plane were likely headed for either the Capitol or the White House.

9/11 Memorial

11/30/2005 10:58:00 PM  
Blogger Dr. Goodheart said...

This is a phony surrender. Watch out for the grenade behind his back. See LGF!!!!

11/30/2005 10:59:00 PM  
Blogger Rune said...

Yeah. It’s better. Still wishy-washy and without nerve or bite. And I find it absolutely mindboggling that anyone would consider also honouring the 4 terrorists with the 44 translucent blocks.

The whole idea of translucent blocks symbolising human lives seems a bit fluffy. Haven’t anyone considered making 40 marble or granite statues instead. Those murdered were real humans with real lives and real families, not some indeterminable translucent substance.

12/01/2005 12:28:00 AM  
Blogger Rune said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

12/01/2005 12:30:00 AM  
Blogger wretchardthecat said...

I think one should be proud to maintain a sincerely held viewpoint. But it strikes me as somewhat sneaky to go around under false colors because it conveys both a need to hide one's true beliefs and a contempt for the symbols one dons as camouflage. If people wanted to memoralize the hijackers of 93, why not build one outright?

Remember those Christian Peacemaker Teams in Iraq? Consider these links which describe their activities in Iraq.

Then look at this link from their own website:

and this:

then this:

This guy Joe Carr was with both the CPT and the International Solidarity Movement.

Now for Joe Carr's homepage:

What is so shameful about saying "I'm for Palestine, I'm for the insurgents. Here I stand. Ich nan anders?

12/01/2005 01:13:00 AM  
Blogger Rune said...

I don’t think they’re trying to outright honour the terrorists or their version of Islam (I can't really bring myself to believe that). Just to say something like the terrorists were people too, and they also were victims, being tricked or forced by poverty and unhappy circumstances to their end – and so they deserve to be mourned too. All bullshit of course, but the whole memorial reeks of an all embracing I’m-Ok-You’re-Ok-We’re-All-Ok attitude and strenuous efforts not to appear menacing or insulting to those ideologues which produced the terrorists.

12/01/2005 02:04:00 AM  
Blogger Fat Man said...

From LGF:, mainstream media (aka the New York Times and Associated Press) told us that the Flight 93 “Crescent of Embrace” memorial had been (grudgingly) redesigned to remove its incredibly offensive inclusion of the religious symbol of the 9/11 hijackers.

At Error Theory, Alec Rawls says it’s a trick: Flight 93 memorial still an Islamo-fascist shrine.

"The redesigned flight 93 memorial, announced today, still contains all of the features that made it a terrorist memorial. Architect Paul Murdoch’s infamous red crescent is still there, still planted with red maple trees, still inscribed in the exact same circle as before, and with the same two crescent tips still intact. Thus the crescent bisector defined by these crescent tips is also the same as before. It still points almost exactly to Mecca, making the crescent a Mihrab (an Islamic prayer station, where the believer faces into a crescent, towards Mecca, to perform his ritual prostrations). The design still incorporates a separate upper terrorist-memorial wall, centered precisely on the red-maple crescent. There are still 44 translucent blocks on the flight path to the crash site, matching the total number of dead, instead of just the forty translucent blocks that are dedicated to the forty murdered Americans. Lastly, the Tower of Voices part of the memorial is still an Islamic prayer-timeundial."

12/01/2005 03:09:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

"I think one should be proud to maintain a sincerely held viewpoint"


childmolesters are sincere in their beliefs...

as are islamic jihadist sucide bombers...

as was hitler.... (and c4)

being "sincere" is nothing...

12/01/2005 05:10:00 AM  
Blogger metaphysician said...

Well, lets take a lesson from the Islamists: see the enemy retreat, press on in the face of weakness.

12/01/2005 05:29:00 AM  
Blogger janet in venice said...

well, maybe someone can do a howard roark to it once it's built. or get some subversive eco-activists to confuse the issue by
surreptitiously planting a whole lot more trees all about, so that the whole red crescent disappears in a forest of addtional company. maybe someone can tweak the blueprints so that the surveyors end up orienting the line to mecca pointing at DC instead. or straight east to the rising dawn sun on sept 11th [the way stonehenge focuses the sun on one spot on the solstices].
various such little acts could subtly alter the whole thing if we can't eradicate the mosque echoes from the design. but let's keep working on the overt opposition first. like the 'freedom tower;, it seems we are still too close to the original blow to be able to know what it means to us with perspective yet, so the efforts at memorializing it are still disingenuous and sappy. better to do nothing and leave it alone, until time lets us find out what we really want to 'say' about it in our monuments. we still don't know what this means to us yet.

12/01/2005 06:26:00 AM  
Blogger JSAllison said...

Hmm, replaced the cursed crescent with a smokeless smoking hole... We're supposed to be reflective and apologetic about being murdered? How about a 100 foot stainless steel fist with upraised finger aimed at the point of origin of the hijack-murderers? (That'd be Riyadh, btw.)

12/01/2005 06:30:00 AM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

This memorial is built around a foundation of red maple trees. Unless there's some special variety of Japanese maples that I'm not familiar with, what this means is that for 6 months out of the year, the trees will be green, for two months they will indeed be red, and for four months they'll be bare and scraggly looking.

I would *love* to see an artist's conception of this memorial surrounded by bare tree branches, looking like bony fingers reaching up to the sky. I'm thinking it probably will neither be lovely, nor awe-inspiring.

Why red maples? Why red anything? Other than the red crescent analogy, of course.

12/01/2005 06:46:00 AM  
Blogger Jrod said...

sweet Jeebus! Check out Joe Carr's Statement of Identity:

I am a white, middle class, queer American male. I am an anti-racist & anti-sexist; I seek to dismantle my racist patriarchal privilege & end my oppressive behaviors. I was raised Catholic, but I consider myself independently spiritual because organized religion was designed to divide & oppress. I am an anarchist; I seek to tear down hierarchies in my personal interactions, organizing structures, & society at large. I am a revolutionary; this US-dominated global capitalist system is inherently flawed & I aim to help accelerate its inevitable collapse & create a truly sustainable & egalitarian society. I work for peace in my personal interactions and I oppose all wars waged by governments to ensure their dominance, but I am NOT a pacifist;I find nonviolent tactics powerful and effective, but violence & property destruction have always been an essential part of revolutionary movements & I support everyone's right to self defense. I am a political vegan; I try not to create economic demand for products that are violent & exploitative to people, animals, or the earth but I'll eat anything I find in a dumpster or is offered by a host.

I call on everyone benefiting from unearned privileges to stand along side poor people of color around the world and demand an end to oppression! Unite for global justice!

in peace, love, & anarchy

-joe carr

12/01/2005 08:21:00 AM  
Blogger Nathan said...

I like the stainless steel fist idea.

12/01/2005 08:27:00 AM  
Blogger opotho said...

From the Flight 93 National Memorial: website:

"Visitors may then pass the visitor center to descend around the Bowl on a curving, mile-long walkway to the Sacred Ground. Along the way, they will encounter 40 Memorial Groves of red and sugar maple trees. ..."

So there's actually a mix of species planned, a fact not mentioned on any blog I've come across this week. (If memory serves, I believe that the mix was specified in the original plan, and is not a recent change due to criticism.)

Now aside from the invasive norway maple (Acer platenoides) the red maple is probably eastern North America's most plentiful and easily cultivated maple. Sugar maples being somewhat moodier, especially where heat becomes an issue, are subject to canker problems. The other maples seem hardly appropriate for the task, unless you think that a silver crescent is the better choice? Of course there IS such a thing as a black maple ...

As to choosing the genus Acer at all, I can find no mention in the site's literature as to its symbolic appropriateness (strange for a website where nearly every other word is capitalized).

Perhaps some Canadians would like to weigh in on our maple disputes?

12/01/2005 08:58:00 AM  
Blogger opotho said...

I like the stainless steel middle finger too.

Why not a landscape-design of the image, outlined in red maples and visible only from the air? The whole thing could pivot too, and be directed wherever we please.

12/01/2005 09:06:00 AM  
Blogger circlethewagons said...

More like, "If ye break wind we shall not sleep."

12/01/2005 09:11:00 AM  
Blogger Ettanin said...

It's still a monument to Islam.

12/01/2005 10:33:00 AM  
Blogger Jean (from France) said...

I agree with the commentors. It is still a shrine to Islam.

One might also check out the Muslim Brotherhood and/or the stated strategies of the Islamists, specifically the parts relating to using the local liberal freedoms against the locality to defeat from within.

It's like having a 7 yeqar old girl following you around taking your wallet out of your pocket. WHat do you do? Violence? Naw, and her Parents aren't around. No-one else is concerned about it. No-one to help you. Finally, you might just give her the wallet and walk before she starts screaming rape.

12/01/2005 10:48:00 AM  
Blogger John Aristides said...

Say it ain't so, Joe:

"I completely affirm Palestinians right to resist Israeli colonial occupation. Palestinians have the right to do much more than throw rocks at soldiers committing colonial genocide, and they must if they are to survive."

The formulation "have a right to..." always interests me, predominantly because it is used so loosely and haphazardly by people who usually have no idea what they are talking about. When these people talk of rights, they don't realize the ex nihilo assertiveness of their comment. Instead, they feel their statement has the force of empirical fact, a teleological truth of nature that, because of the stupidity of their strategic competitors, they must demean by saying aloud.

Questions that go unanswered:

What is a right? Is a right based in law, nature, or morality? Where do they come from?

How is the "right to resist" different from mere "ableness"? How is it different from a natural, or instinctive, imperative?

Is it always good to exercise a right? Is it always good to resist?

Are rights and responsibilities mutually exclusive?

Do Israelis have the same rights of resistance as the Palestinians, or does ability indirectly correlate with "rightness"?

If both have a right to resist and survive, how is it meaningful to speak of rights in the first place?

And finally, if it is not always a good to exercise a right (either it conflicts with other virtues, or causes a bad result), how should one approach the question of whether or not to do so? Should one look at the situation entire and make a rational, result-oriented decision (roll-back), or should one follow the passions and be guided by the lesser spirits of vengeance, self-gratification, and pride? (Would our friend Joe agree that there is a right of self-gratification? That is, in a sense, what he advocates for the Palestinians. Is this right universal, or only for the downtrodden?)

The Palestinians are not operating in a vacuum. Exercising a right, insofar as it exists, is not free of cost (it never is, just ask Hollywood). One of the effects of the Palestinian blind exercise of their right to violence has been to remove rationalism as an option for engagement. By doing this, Palestinians have forced the Israelis to treat them as reactionary units of a certain set program, instead of as human beings with which to negotiate for peace. Basically, the Palestinians have become mechanical automatons in their interaction with Israel, an input/output system of peculiar characteristics. The input of this tragic system is the reality of Israel--the precise state of its existence at a unit t of time--and the output is the Palestinian response, which is stuck on a singular value: the exercise of the Palestinian right to resist.

The latter changes the input value insofar as it changes the defensive posture of Israel, but the interesting part of this dynamic is the static nature of the output. Israel has tried on several occasions to redefine its reality in regards to the Palestinians, but the output of violence did not diminish. In fact, it increased.

The fact that Israeli concessions (redefinitions) have done nothing to stem the exercise of the Palestinian "right to violence" has left the Israelis with only three options: they can eliminate the input (Israel), eliminate the output, or eliminate the effectiveness of the output on the input. The first option means suicide, the second means genocide, and the last means withdrawal and a fence. I hope the last one works, because Israel is not going to commit suicide. That leaves option number two, and if it comes to that perhaps our friend Joe will lament that the Palestinian bag of rights will have killed its carrier.

12/01/2005 11:17:00 AM  
Blogger John Aristides said...

Using the language of "rights", this is what the Palestinian issue comes down to:

If there is a wall between a man and his objective, the man has a right to push the wall as hard as he can.

He does not have a right to have the wall fall down.

12/01/2005 11:31:00 AM  
Blogger Harkonnendog said...

This is an even better example, now, of betrayal by our elites. It also illustrates why it is so difficult to stop them.

It reminds me of The Eiger Sanction- about how difficult the (anti)heroes found the mountain Aconcagua because climbing it did not require moments of great courage and skill, but rather a plodding stubborn tenacity. There's little glory in that kind of victory.

Who wants to whine and whine and whine? Liberals. But liberals LIKE the site. The artists who made the site know this, and know conservatives will probably let it go, rather than fight a battle they find distasteful and probably can't win anyway.

12/01/2005 12:13:00 PM  
Blogger RWE said...

Well, we could handle it like they did the Vietnam Memorial.
There were those who believed that the low wall etched with names of dead evoked shame and sorrow rather than pride and honor.
So opposite the wall they put statues of U.S soldiers depicted as they would have been in Vietnam.
Leave it the way it is described now - and in the center put statuary of Flight 93 passengers beating the ever lovin' crap out of the hijackers. Depict the heroes with determined faces and gritted teeth and the terrorists screaming in terror.
Even if it is a red crescent no one will notice with that statue there. Those who do notice the Red Crescent will be given something to ponder.
Don't treat this event as a moment of civilian sorrow.
Treat it like the raising of the Flag on Iwo Jima: as a moment of military victory.
Let it say: "WE BEAT THEM!"

12/01/2005 12:39:00 PM  
Blogger blert said...

This design is a rape of memory.

12/01/2005 01:26:00 PM  
Blogger Nathan said...

Modern liberalism is a rape of memory.

12/01/2005 01:49:00 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

12/01/2005 01:53:00 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

There needs to be a "Let's Roll" statue. Some airline seats, populated with men and women of various emotional states, and guys charging up the aisle. The whole thing could be put in the entry. To get to the 'sacred ground', you have to walk up the plane's aisle and past the chargers. Every now and then, a recording of the "Let's roll" cry would play.

12/01/2005 01:56:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Nothing that a little roundup can't handle.

12/01/2005 03:03:00 PM  
Blogger Art V said...

Sorry, I've never bought this 'islamic elements' stuff wrt the flight 93 memorial. I'm surprised that it has gained such wide currency in the blogosphere. Okay, you'd expect it among fringe elements, but this nonsense is just too widespread.
Ever read that conspiracy-theory book 'The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail'? It weaves a convincing story, but in fact it's a lot of rubbish. Something about conspiracy theories makes them attractive - resist this one!

12/01/2005 03:28:00 PM  
Blogger Art V said...

Another point I'd like to make. I estimate that around half the comments on these 'flight 93 islamic crescent' blog entries are satirical trolling from people amused by the nonsensical nature of the subject, and wanting to encourage other posters into more ludicrous comments.
I class the 'lets roll' recording playing intermittently idea above as one of these joke posts. (yeah, it doesnt take Sherlockian levels of insight to realise that)

12/01/2005 03:30:00 PM  
Blogger Annoy Mouse said...

Jeebus JROD,
This Joe Carr guy is at least true to his principles. As I have said before, when so called peace activists start rising up and demonstrating against Chinese tyranny, genocide in Sudan and other crimes against humanity, then they are not anti-war they are simply anti-western anarchists. Although I would gladly let Mr. Carr eat out of my trash can, my first notion would be to apply the counter-anarchist principle of reorganizing Mr. Carr’s molecules. Let entropy convert Mr. Carr’s mass into heat.

12/01/2005 03:39:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

I think the Flight 93 Project is another sign of the out of control Cult of Victimhood and "Memorial-itis" we are suffering from.

The project is supposed to run 40 million,and sets aside 2,000 acres as "tranquil mourning space". 50 acres and 1,000,000 in memorial cost per victim?????

If the Vietnam Memorial set aside so much money and space per victim, it would cost 58.4 billion and cover 4,562.5 square miles. An area bigger than 66 Washington DCs. If the WWII Memorial was contructed with the same money and allocated land largess, it would cost 420 trillion dollars and take up 328,125 square miles of "sacred mourning space". An area the size of Texas and Florida combined.

Now all the psychobabble about closure and healing the victim's pain is all so noble and all, but the disgrace of the Flight 93 Memorial is not the Crescent of Embrace - it is the ludicrous extent we are pandering to and overindulging "victims" these days.

12/01/2005 04:20:00 PM  
Blogger DWPittelli said...

Art V: "I've never bought this 'islamic elements' stuff... Something about conspiracy theories makes them attractive - resist this one!"

Rawls' post ( posits that the architect has consciously evoked themes and designs of Islamic prayer architecture.

This may or may not be true, but is subject to analysis of its many details and statistical significance.

Perhaps ArtV is overwhelmed by geometry. He could suppose instead that the trees were arranged in lines whose groupings could be read as Morse code (e.g., 1 tree for dot, 2 in close succession for dash) and that this Morse code would then read "Allahu Akhbar." The proper response to refute the post's claim wouldn't be to scream about "numerology" or "conspiracy theories," it would be to show that either:

1) The post got Morse code wrong, or made an error in "reading" the positions of the trees in the map.

2) There were many other ways of reading the trees, which would produce nonsense, and this fact, or the length of the message relative to the amount of garbled "text" means it's likely a coicidence, and not the architect's deliberate invoking of Islamic clogans.

In my example, coincidence is quite plausible if it's "Allah" in 100 letters of garble, less plausible if it's "Alahu Akhbar" among 30 nonsense characters, not at all plausible if it's "there is no god but allah and muhammad is his prophet" with no nonsense text.

So the question is, ArtV, can anyone show that there are errors in Rawl's analysis, or that the number of possible data points swamps his data,which he has cherry-picked? Such a debunking might be done, but to my knowledge no one has done it yet. And in the absence of such an analysis on anyone's part, how can Rawls' skeptics claim that his very detailed article is self-debunking, and how can they not at least admit that their skepticism is tentative?

12/01/2005 04:51:00 PM  
Blogger RWE said...

Aristides: Key point you might add to the "rights" issue:
They do not merely want those rights.
They want IMMUNITY from the consequences of exercising those rights.
Throw rocks, but don't have soliders throw grenades back.
Speak out, but don't have anyone speak back and call you crazy, stupid, evil etc. (Hollywood types are especially good at this).

Anyway, back on toipic, read my post and find I am in rare almost-agreement with Cederford.

The basic problem with the Flight 93 memorial is that it is focused on victimhood, not the heroism that occurred that day.

The airplane did not come apart in a thunderstorm for God's sake, or have an engine blow up - some brave passengers that had the stuff of Omaha Beach in their spines forced the terrorists to put it into the ground rather than into the Capitol.

It was a brave response to an act of war, not a natural disaster.

The memorial should reflect that.

12/01/2005 05:40:00 PM  
Blogger Bob Smith said...

It was a brave response to an act of war, not a natural disaster.

Count me in with that thought. I would also guess that people of such courage and resolve would deeply resent being immortalized as victims. Neither appropriate nor dignified.

12/01/2005 06:23:00 PM  
Blogger trangbang68 said...

New Memorial Design:
Trade a couple of minor league jihadis to Zarqawi for Joe Carr.Put Carr in stocks at the site of the plane crashing in Pennsylvania and let sensible Americans come and throw tomatoes at him as the ridiculous liberal whiner that he is.The proceeds from the rotten tomato concession could go to military families.

12/01/2005 07:05:00 PM  
Blogger StoutFellow said...

The new Memorial design does appear to concede many of the points raised by we the critics. The heinous name "Crescent of Embrace" is gone and the band trees surrounding the elipse seems to be of uniform thickness. Previously the band of trees was thickest 180 degrees away from the opening of the elipse and tapered to a point at the opening, clearly defining a crescent shape. Whether the design which is implemented is the one shown now or the one shown previously can (and will) be ascertained by over-flight after construction is finished. If there crescent has returned, I predict there will be a major uproar and hell to pay.


we could handle it like they did the Vietnam Memorial.
There were those who believed that the low wall etched with names of dead evoked shame and sorrow rather than pride and honor. So opposite the wall they put statues of U.S soldiers depicted as they would have been in Vietnam.

You are describing the Korean War Memorial. You know the forgotten war.

art v

I estimate that around half the comments on these 'flight 93 islamic crescent' blog entries are satirical trolling from people amused by the nonsensical nature of the subject, and wanting to encourage other posters into more ludicrous comments.

Yeah those neo-cons are so stupid it's easy to make them look like idiots. [/sarcasm] WRT the 'Islamist Elements' in the Flight 93 design, a red crescent and a minaret look pretty Islamist to me. It doesn't take a conspiracy, just the unconscious actions that flow from the multi-culturist creed. All cultures are of equal worth, except the dominant white, Judeo-Chrisian Western Liberal culture which oppresses all other cultures. Therefore the monument should honor both the Islamic terrorists as victims of US Imperialism, and the passengers and crew who were victims of their government's mistaken policies.

12/01/2005 07:06:00 PM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

There was a small group of families of the plane's victims who had bought into the Crescent inthe first design. I can't imagine why they approved it. But I have to wonder and keep wondering why all the families of those victims of terrorists aren't screaming to high heaven about this silliness.

For myself, I'm thinking the analysis of the second design is being a little bit excrutiating, and sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. But I just don't see anything uplifting or awesome or ANYthing good about this whole stupid bowl/crescent idea. If you look at the Park Service web-site, what the hell are those ditches of water supposed to be all about?

It looks like a Communist duck wildlife refuge, not a scream of anger and defiance like it should be. WHY would the architects even be aiming for calm and meditative water blobs???

12/01/2005 07:27:00 PM  
Blogger Brian said...

art v

I think you miss the point. Why is it that someone can even make a plausible argument that his design has elements tying it to Islam? After all of the uproar couldn't they have completely modified all of the troubling elements enough to eliminate legitimate public concerns? After all, the public is paying for it.

Why are they wedded to the design and the architect - who clearly could not get it right the first time?

Is it really that difficult to produce a simple and unabashadly patriotic monument to some of this country's greatest heros (think Iwo Jima) that cannot be interpreted as a memorial to those who murdered them?

I don't think we should settle for this design just because the evidence of the Islamic elements is not perfect.

12/01/2005 08:14:00 PM  
Blogger Jake said...

Re: Cedarford's 4:20 post

C4 for once I am in complete agreement with one of your posts. You didn't even have to mention jews or walmart dollars to make an excellent point.

12/01/2005 08:25:00 PM  
Blogger Pangloss said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

12/01/2005 09:11:00 PM  
Blogger Pangloss said...

I like this memorial better. It's an old-fashioned, highly symbolized memorial to inspire hatred of the murderous enemy and love and patriotism for the US.

Frame the site in lines of trees forming a square aligned to the cardinal directions. Four flagstone-paved roads lead in/out from the square, making it a crossroads and a meeting place.

At each entrance, on a granite pedestal, place a large, realistically carved granite statue of an eagle eating a crying, bawling, whimpering, humiliated hijacker's liver as a terrorist leader kneels prostrate before the eagle, begging for mercy. OBL, big Z and little Z, and Khomeini would make excellent terrorist leaders for this part of the memorial. Each hijacker would get their own shameful statue. Title each statue "The Wages of Terror are Paid in Hell's Coin."

Inside, 40 pure white marble holy symbols (crosses for Christians, ankhs for new-agers, stars of david for jews, busts of darwin for atheists, question marks for agnostics, even crescent and stars if there were moslims among the heroes) with appropriate hagiographical text for each hero on the flight. Posthumously induct all forty heroes in the US Army and award them the US Army Medal of Honor. At the center of each holy symbol, embedded in clear, unbreakable resin, place the medal. Shelter each holy symbol beneath the branches of a sturdy oak tree.

Summing up, an old fashioned memorial to inspire the struggle against the most old fashioned of all possible enemies.

12/01/2005 09:39:00 PM  
Blogger ed said...


I have a solution. Let's propose to rotate the entire site plan by 22 degrees. Why 22 degrees? No reason really. Just a number greater than zero and less than 360.

But rotating the site design would make any sort of Islamic conjunction impossible. And if the architect fights it tooth and nail, then we'll know why.

12/01/2005 11:19:00 PM  
Blogger blert said...


He metaphorically already has.

12/01/2005 11:49:00 PM  
Blogger Art V said...

Yeah those neo-cons are so stupid it's easy to make them look like idiots. [/sarcasm]

Easy tiger - I happen to agree with the liberation of Iraq, so your sarcasm is ill-targeted.
Also, I think the fact you feel the need to flag up the sarcasm to other readers is telling. Wasn't it patently obvious to anyone with more than half a brain?

WRT the 'Islamist Elements' in the Flight 93 design

Let's deal with the 'islamic' elements...

, a red crescent

A red circle with a gap in it.
(pointing south west btw, not towards Mecca), not even shaped the slightest bit like an 'islamic moon' symbol.
Not to mention the fact that the new design doesnt have a crescent, and its terrible orientation (even if you pretend it was ever 'pointing north east') is knocked out of whack.

and a minaret

This 'minaret' bilge need only be met with a hearty guffaw of derision.

Frankly, I can only imagine the level of extreme paranoia you've retreated into, when all elongated vertical constructions come to resemble minarets.

Get. A. Grip.

12/02/2005 02:34:00 AM  
Blogger Art V said...

Sorry, 'DWPittelli' - I forgot to respond to the morse code nonsense.

So you're saying 'okay you dont buy this gauzy web of circumstantial pseudo-evidence and half-baked trigonometry. How about if we could prove the architect has an 'I love Islam' tattoo, is a member of the Brotherhood of Muslim Architects, and the stone memorial at the centre of the site has the first line of the koran embossed upon it'.

To which I respond: yep, if you could prove a completely different argument conclusively, I would be swayed by that completely different argument.


12/02/2005 02:39:00 AM  
Blogger Art V said...

I think you miss the point. Why is it that someone can even make a plausible argument that his design has elements tying it to Islam?

I will try to address the point you made: the plausibility of the 'argument' is highly questionable.
Look at the rubbish about there having been no passenger jet attack on the Pentagon on 9/11. Some Frenchman even wrote a bestseller on the subject. The evidence was clear - CLEAR photographic evidence that the hole in the pentagon's outer wall was too small to allow entry of a large jetplane. And yet that too was transparent nonsense, but there were enough gullible people out there willing (primed by their paranoia, I suspect) to fall for it. The same has occurred in this case.

BTW, I think an argument can be made that the memorial plans as they stand are anodyne, touchy-feely bollocks. Just lose the islamic conspiracy theory (unconscious or no).

As a great philosopher once said: 'get a brain, morans!'

12/02/2005 02:47:00 AM  
Blogger RWE said...

Stoutfello: Nope, the Vietnam Memorial has the statues of soldiers overlooking the wall - one big piece of statuary, actually.
No one ever mentions that part of the memorial. Monogram even put out a model kit of that statue. And that is where I went when I visited the memorial, not the wall itself.
The Korean War Memoial has statues too, but completely different

12/02/2005 06:08:00 AM  
Blogger StoutFellow said...


Nope, the Vietnam Memorial has the statues of soldiers overlooking the wall - one big piece of statuary, actually.
No one ever mentions that part of the memorial.

I stand corrected. Obviously that part of the Vietnam War memorial didn't make a big impression on me when I was there a few years back, since I had totally forgotten about it.

12/02/2005 06:33:00 AM  
Blogger Prof. Willard said...

The Vietnam Memorial includes a group of three typical soldiers, life-size, carrying Vietnam-era weapons and looking back at the Wall where the names of all of their buddies who didn't come back are listed. That group of statues doubles the effect of the Wall itself.

I first saw it on a cold winter's evening. I and the guy in the POW-MIA booth were the only people there. The mood was: Dona eis requiem aeternam.

Several years later I went back with my wife and kids, on vacation. The sun was shining, the birds were singing, and somebody was protesting something on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial. The mood was: carnival. I don't know if my kids even remember.

12/02/2005 07:55:00 AM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

Another bit of excess is the POW/MIA flag as some sort of secondary national ensign for a very, very minute special interest group.

Very few soldiers were POWs in the last 50 years. No soldier was listed as MIA long. It was a temporary measure until the preponderance of evidence was assembled that they were not captured by the enemy or found by another unit. Then they were classified as deceased.

It had nothing to do with finding remains.

Now, as has been fortunately true for 30 years, except for a few weeks in the Gulf War and in the Iraq conflict - there are NO POWs. There are NO MIAs.

The supporters of that inane special interest flag pretend there are POWs and MIAs and warn us to never forget them and put them above those known to be killed and maimed or the Vet.....but there are NO actual POWs or MIAs today. Any claimed MIA is simply a dead soldier we may or may not find the corpse of. We still have missing from the Revolutionary War.

We have Veterans Day for those who returned. Memorial Day for those that didn't. We have the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier for permanently lost or unidentified remains. We don't need a POW/MIA flag on top of that, we don't need the special POW/MIA day they lobby for. There is no need for "Lest we Forget" lecturing.

But if you ever want to see a zealot get huffy, tell a POW/MIA acolyte that their flag is unecessary and the honors they seek are redundant with Vet's Day and Memorial Day.

Same with telling someone who is touting how important Martin Luther King Day is that it should be "Civil Rights Day" instead - like it is now "President's Day" to honor the thousands who made great contributions for civil rights - many, like Thurgood Marshalls, Frederick Douglas, Roger Baldwin, Harriet Beecher Stowes, Booker T Washingtons - greater than Kings...and many more who made enormous contributions but are totally forgotten so as to give all credit and glory to a flawed celebrity of the movement.

12/02/2005 12:57:00 PM  
Blogger NonToxic Chuck said...

An, "I love Islam" tattoo, I love it.

9/25/2006 12:20:00 PM  

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