The Blitz Comes to London
Terrorists have attacked multiple nodes of the London public transportation system according to CNN. At least 90 persons were injured in Aldgate Station alone. The BBC is reporting attacks on other stations:
Large numbers of casualties have been reported after at least six explosions on the Underground network and a double-decker bus in London.
UK Home Secretary Charles Clarke said several explosions in central London had caused "terrible injuries". The BBC's Frank Gardner said Arab sources said the blasts were probably the work of al-Qaeda but police have not confirmed a terrorist link.One caller to BBC Five said his friend had seen "the bus ripped open like a can of sardines and bodies everywhere". ... British Transport Police said incidents took place at Aldgate, Edgware Road, King's Cross, Old Street and Russell Square stations. ... Hospitals have said they are no longer accepting non-emergency cases, BBC Five Live reported.
These coordinated attacks are, technically speaking, at far higher level of sophistication than the Madrid attacks of 3/11 which involved a single train. The attack on London was a "time on target" attack which required simultaneity so that one incident did not compromise the subsequent. By implication the personnel involved received some degree of training and planned the operation in sufficient secrecy to prevent British security services from getting wind of it. The six attacks probably mean that a minimum of forty persons were involved, if those in support roles are included. The attackers must have an egress plan or access to safe houses where they can weather the inevitable crackdown.
Insular Britain, which fought a long terrorist war against the IRA is one of the hardest targets in the Western world. There is no reason, in principle, why similar attacks cannot happen on a larger or deadlier scale in some American or Australian city, less prepared than London -- or indeed anyplace in the world -- such as Thailand, India or the Philippines -- where they have happened already. As long as Islamic fundamentalist terror exists danger will exist. Liberals may believe that accommodation, appeasement or flattery can change this correspondence. But terrorism will remind the world as often as it needs reminding that there isn't room enough on the planet for Islamic terror and civilization.
Faster. Please.
Update
Additional reports from the BBC suggest that the number of casualties will be comparatively small. From the amount of damage caused, the explosive devices used appear to have been in the tens, rather than the hundreds of pounds. This is good news. It also means that the enemy has not grown in overall capability since the days of 9/11 and 3/11.
posted by wretchardthecat at 7/07/2005 04:03:00 AM
421 Comments:
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I wonder if anyone here will wake up?
I worry that our level of concern won't come near what Britains was for us on 9-11.
---
"Insular Britain, which fought a long terrorist war against the IRA is one of the hardest targets in the Western world."
---
Don't we have the advantage of a smaller, and less extreme, on average muslim population in house?
...and the chunnel kind of reduced the insular nature at least pre-9-11.
Did they get France to clean up the mess on their side where folks were regularly sneaking across, Peter?
How quickly some forget.
Faster indeed, and *better* faster at home, please!
...but Tancredo will remain an outcast.
Muslims in Britain have been restless for several years. Muslim leaders in mosques have been openly calling for war against the western world. Police have been "monitoring" the situation without taking strong action against the open conspiracy. Perhaps the forged memoes will be displaced from the news for a few days at least.
Kevin,
On Scene in London, has a post in the previous thread.
Large hunks of the civilized world still don't get it, do they? Play by the rules with terrorists, lose by the rules. I feel sad for them. they are strong allies and always have been but I suspect half the Brits will simply blame it on being in Iraq and continue on with the Liberal BS. If anything, their immigration policies will further loosen and I would bet on that.
Kevin said...
I’m realizing that the power surge talk is just a way to keep people calm as they evacuate the tube system. I just talked to the lady who witnessed the bus explosion. She had been in the tube at Euston station when they started clearing the people out of the system. It took her 40 minutes to get off the platform and on to the surface streets – it was that crowded. No one panicked she said. She walked towards King’s Cross but was diverted towards Russell Square. She started chatting with a woman and they decided to jump on a 205 bus. The bus did not move at all for the five minutes she was on it. The bus behind her exploded, she saw it in the air. Her ears were ringing; she said people were amazingly calm but that she started to panic a bit and ran off the bus and started running towards our office.
She was saved by a completely random choice of which bus to jump on. I was meant to go to King's Cross and then to transfer to the Northern line. Since I missed the explosion by five minutes that means I was saved by some ladies lagging while checking out of my hotel this morning (and my taking th escenic route instead of the direct one).
Right now we are staying in the office. Supposedly Old Street Station which is near was also hit us but there are not that many emergency vehicles there so I doubt that it’s true. The waves of the blasts travel through the tunnels and it makes it hard to know where the actual blast was. There are certainly more than the usual sounds of sirens but it is hard from here to get a real picture of what is going on. I think I will walk over to Liverpool Street Station to check it out.
They are currently going through the office to see if anyone is missing.
3:52 AM
Well,
We can all become dhimmi and go to the mosque five times a day and then things would calm down.
But then of course the left may get violent when told they have to pray. Ha!
Ironically, the terrorists are their own worst enemies and liberal's worst friends. Imagine trying to portray these nutcases as simple, misunderstood 'freedom fighters'. They are hardly simple. The London attack required preparation, motivation, organization and logistics. The attackers had to evade the British police informers, wiretaps, surveillance. And of course, as they themselves will make plain in their communique, they demand nothing less than conversion to their creed and submission to their word. The liberals will try to spin this, but there are limits to the powers of fiction.
Goesh,
I doubt it. My sense is that if this was the work of AQ and their sympathizers, which seems reasonable, it was a foolish waste of resources. There will be some noise from the usual chorus on the extreme left, but I have serious doubts that those voices will influence UK policy.
We've just passed through a new threshold.
“There is a tide in the affairs of men
Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune.”
If you were Blair, what would you do?
My suggestion: 1000 bombers from all non Islamic countries would fly over Mecca. Drop leaflets saying 'next time...'.
And then the next time, well that's war, isn't it?
ADE
OK, I'm not too full with the milk of human kindness right now.
Maybe Chirac because of the Olympics?
Doug
Chirac? All he can organise is food poisoning, mon cherie.
ADE
AQ just issued a "we did it" claim, says Fox.
My suggestion: 1000 bombers from all non Islamic countries would fly over Mecca. Drop leaflets saying 'next time...'.
I believe we passed the stage of sending messages on September 11. The time has come to do whatever is necessary to win against Islamic terrorism. Because of the tremendous power of the United States "whatever is necessary" may in fact be limited to overthrowing dysfunctional governments and hunting down terrorist cells. That is the humane opportunity before us. But should the enemy's power increase then all the stops will progressively be pulled out because we are in a fight to death and in those circumstances "whatever is necessary" will mean exactly that. If we ever have to send bombers over Mecca it should only be to use them. We are not at that stage yet but we will eventually get to the greater tragedy if we cannot successfully prosecute the fight against terrorism by limited means. What is scary about London is not that it happened, but that there is nothing to prevent it from being serially repeated everywhere except the defeat of the enemy.
re, update:
Points out I think why much deadlier attacks are so much easier to carry out in Iraq where explosives are readily at hand.
In London, it was well organized, but no multiple mortar rounds to be had.
Thanks for this blog. I also came to the conclusion that the terrorists are not increasing in strength, if this is the best they can do.
Of course, every life taken is a tragedy, but if the movement was greater, so would the casualties be.
I just walked down to Liverpool Street Station and talked to one of the police officers on duty there. He told me that the bomb went off in the crowed tube car between Liverpool St. and Aldgate. I work with blast protection professionally but it really is not hard to image the effects of even a relatively small blast in the confined space of the underground tunnels. The roof of the tunnel would have collapsed; I don’t want to speculate but surely hundreds would have died in those cars. I felt the blast that occurred somewhere near King’s Cross; there have to be mass casualties.
The streets are full of sirens and emergency vehicles roaring by. No busses are running. People are all on their mobiles trying to figure out what is going on.
THE SPANISH CONNECTION [John Hood]Just to further answer Cliff May's question, some of the commenters at DailyKos are already making the Madrid/Iraq/blowback comparison to today’s London attacks. But in fairness, others are (correctly, I think) arguing that the Brits are likely to react differently than the Spaniards did. Posted at 08:11 AM
Kevin,
You're the man on the spot and know the most. If a bomb went off on a train tamped in by the tunnel it would be certainly bad. But we're not hearing anything about that on the airwaves. Any hard evidence it happened that way?
That is the humane opportunity before us.
W, when I posted, I knew that we had passed the "humane opportunity". The 1000 bomber leaflet drop was not just to appear that we were 'nice guys'. The darkened sky was to ensure that, when the inevitable next bombing was carried out by AQ, and the inevitable retribution was exacted on Islamic countries that cannot control their loonies, future history could say "Well they were warned, weren't they". History is important to my progeny.
It is utterly inevitable. The choice before us all is 'submit', or the ME Governments can excise their own cancer.
OR, we nuke Morroco to the Phillipines.
The awful thing about this is, that if you did a cost/benefit analysis, you'd adopt plan C.
ADE (in the heat of battle)
Kevin, thanks for the great posts in the previous thread. Take care of yourself.
Pretty early days yet. 7 stations and 2 buses? Surely more than 2 dead. Hope not. But like Wretchard and Saurkraut said, if it was only tens of pounds and this is all they can muster then man, what a waste of suiciders. Very good indication of the state AQ is in.
Where's Pete at?
Isn't the timing of this -- a day _after_ the Olympics vote -- sloppy? If this were done two days earlier, the attack would have gotten still greater attention because of that vote, possibly influenced it, and would have had a chance of "claiming" responsibility for scaring the Olynmpics away from England. And it still would have cast a shadow over the G8.
Kos,
Just in from magazine friend in London:
"suicide bomber just shot dead in canary wharf. - like our wall street"
How do they shoot people in London?
Of course the commenters on the Daily Kos would think that way. But it's going to get harder and harder to peddle that line. One of the problems is that the liberal policy line has set up the potential for a discontinuity, an irrational snap. By portraying the Islamists as quaint and misunderstood 'freedom fighters' they are simply setting the stage for mass disillusionment. And you don't want to see mass disillusionment.
We have to focus on the problem, almost like we didn't feel any pain. The head of this thing is in places like Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Pakistan, Syria and Iran. And the support for this thing is wherever the Left flies its flag. That is the nature of the problem. The solution must certainly be to destroy or diminish this political ecosystem.
The good thing about fighting Islamic terrorism is that it creates its own feedback loop. Anytime you are misguided enough to think they are normal human beings they will disabuse you. And the trajectory is corrected. The important thing is to stay the course, in Iraq and elsewhere, until this movement is utterly, utterly destroyed.
From the BBC
Loyita Worley, who works for a City law firm, said she was on the underground train when an explosion took place in the next carriage, while it was in a tunnel.
The 49-year-old said: "All the lights went out and the train came to an immediate halt. There was smoke everywhere and everyone was coughing and choking, but remained calm. We couldn't open the doors."
Once the doors were opened they were taken along to Liverpool Street station.
She said the carriage where an explosion happened was "black on the inside" and she saw people who appeared to have their clothes blown off.
She saw bodies lying inside the carriage.
It doesn't sound at all like the tunnel collapsed but the train would have been packed.
This is just one incident
FLASHBACK TO SEPTEMBER 11 [John Podhoretz]
Tony Blair's shellshocked appearance during his initial statement earlier this morning offers the best rebuttal yet to the sleazy Michael Moore-style attack on President Bush's behavior on the morning of September 11.
It would have been a disaster for Bush to have spoken as the choked-up Blair was.
This is intended as no criticism of Blair, who was clearly under a far different sort of burden at the G-8 than Bush was sitting in a classroom in Sarasota.
But Blair is not the leader of the free world, Bush is, and had he seemed unable to collect himself -- as would surely have been the case in that first hour after Andy Card told him about the attack on America --
I can't imagine what the day would have been like. Not that the president's first words on 9.11, an hour after the attacks, were strong and focused. But they were more controlled.
It is well past time to take these people seriously.
The seriousness of the T operations can be judged on different levels. On one hand this London attack is a small scale attack, defined by casualties. But by the number of conspirators and the level of coordination of the attacks this is comparable to 9-11-01. Do not judge the results only by body count, that would be a major error.
I agree with the Cat, message time has passed.
WHAT IS TO BE DONE? [Cliff May]
CNN chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour just asked some expert whether there is anything that can be done to prevent such attacks.
Part of the answer – a part you won’t hear often – is this: When terrorists are captured they must be effectively interrogated in order to find out what they know about terrorist plots, cells and procedures.
No, that doesn’t mean torture. Yes, that does mean subjecting enemy combatants to “stress and duress,” using the most effective psychological methods to influence them to reveal what they know.
Found here: http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/newsdetail1.asp?storyID=76006
The Metropolitan Police at Scotland Yard say they believe the explosion on the bus was caused by a suicide bomber. If that is confirmed, it will be the first time a suicide bomber has struck in Britain. A statement says explosive material has been found at at least one location.
Is there any website available where I can go and review what "policies" of ours are supposedly responsible for motivating and justifying these attacks?
At a time like this I'd like to see them spelled out.
If, as Mr. Goss has said, we have an idea as to UBL's location and we have stayed out of the 'badlands' for political reasons, we have made an error. If we stayed out because of inadequate troop strength, well that would be even worse.
Time to step up the tempo, everywhere.
The important thing is to stay the course, in Iraq and elsewhere, until this movement is utterly, utterly destroyed.
So we nuke'em then?
Fine by me.
ADE
Desert Rat I agree with you and the Cat. Message time is passed.
Kevin,
The news is dribbling out information about one of the tube attacks. "Eye-witnesses reported seeing bodies piled in the wreckage of damaged Tube trains." Official count now 8 dead; rumored casualties are 20,according to one report I saw on Google News. Christiane Amanpour is unofficially suggesting scores are dead in the subway system.
We'll know the full story soon enough.
Wretchard, your terminology--"political ecosystem"--is very much needed. The gradations of ordinary politics really, really, must be separated from this war.
9-11
7-7
Pete UK
Where are you?
ADE
Hopefully the casualties are on the low end--I remember the initial casualty projections immediately after 9/11 were as high as 50,000.
As for the message time & the "tribal lands" in Pakistan/Afghanistan: screw it: if there is to be a revolution in Pakistan and Musharraf gets assassinated in an ISI-led Islamist coup, let there be a revolution; we team up with India, crush the Paki military, and solve the Kashmir idiocy in one swoop. We must push this thing to its crisis before they push it there. And we must push it now. Forgive me if I reiterate my call for regional war and for outright taunting of the decadent Europeans.
Secondly, I wish the damn traders were a little less opportunistic about these events. Obviously auto-shutting down the markets would merely give the terrorists another incentive--although how different is that than their certain knowledge that a potentially large sell-off will certainly be a result of whatever attack they manage to pull off?
I get the feeling that some attacks have been averted. I heard on the radio from a listener that East Croydon station out in the SOuth London Suburbs was closed this morning and when I drove through Hounslow in West London earlier today there were police everywhere with empty buses stopped seemingly at random on the streets.
Terrorist scum!
It has been speculated that the attacks in New York 9/11 killed about half a million – poor people, mostly Africans, due to the depressed economic activity. The most this attack will accomplish is taking focus off the African help being discussed at the G8.
At least I see all the media have no qualms about calling them terrorists. And not activists, freedom fighters, gunmen, bombmen or whatever.
An Al Quaeda cell has claimed responsibility. But even if true, then it’s just a name or a front group. The enemy is militant Islamism – perhaps Islam.
So Dan, make it simple for yourself, Nuke'Em from Morroco to the Phillipines.
In reality, do any of us really care?
I don't. I've never met them.
ADE
At minimum, Blair would be wise to round up whatever Islamic radicals they can find and deport them back to country of origin. Immediately
The Left are even now meeting on how to spin this. One probable line is that 'Iraq caused this', but they won't use that just yet. First comes the unctuous "we are all Londoners" routine. By tomorrow we will hear the fatal modifier "but". But there aren't enough prayer rooms at the BBC, but there aren't enough benefits for Islamic refugees. But, but and but. Cynicism at its finest.
But don't get your blood pressure up. Although the Left builds its public relations dikes, the tide keeps on rising because reality can't be spun away. When you read commenters at the Daily Kos, you soon realize they are rational only in the sense that Captain Queeg in Caine Mutiny was rational. Smart within very narrow, polemical limits but oblivious to the rock descending on their heads.
But as I remarked earlier, what the Left by its irrationality does is create a series of discontinuities: a kind of jerky progress. After 3/11 one would have thought that the appeasers had triumphed. But a year later, we see the French, Germans and Spanish socialists in retreat over Europe. You'll get dipsy-doodles like that.
Where does this London thing go? If I had to bet, I'd say that Blair will use his EU presidency to create data standardization among European security services. The 'Terrorist Czar' initative that was supposed to result from Madrid but died a quiet death. That basically means creating a list most of whose names are bound to sound like Abdul or Mohammed. By then the Left will have found a way to pour oil on the waters.
But we can count on Osama or his successors to do something even more outrageous. After all, when you've crashed the Towers, murdered schoolchilden, kidnapped Arab ambassadors and sawed people's heads off on camera, it gets to be habit. Sooner or later there'll be a next one and then it's anybody's guess what the Europeans will do with that list. It's a tragedy waiting to happen.
Terrorism isn't something you're going to end by killing terrorists.
As long as the systems of belief are left in place, they'll produce more terrorists, just the way it works.
I cringe every time they call it the "War on Terrorism". Calling it a war is just playing along with their game, helping them feel like mighty warriors for their beliefs, instead of rabid lunatics.
We've been sowing the dragon's teeth for over a century, time to reap the bitter harvest.
Dan,
Pakistan always bothers me the most in that list Wretch had.
I like your scenario, but what do you see happening to the Nukes?
---
...and your attitude is what's causing them to do this, so don't bother about finding the website.
This is London's 9-11. Will they fold like Madrid? Or will they not only massively retaliate but escalate like Washington? The next few days will be interesting.
I thought there were piracy laws still on the books, that by any and all means necessary the scourge is to be eradicated?
The 75th Rangers, that is what happens to their Nukes.
Boy, I thought I was random.
...and then along comes Jack!
Ha--well I don't know about that, ADE, though I empathize with you.
Again: declare them pirates, thus removing the legal privileges conferred by citizenship or residency, and send the intelligence and security agents out like white blood cells to destroy the bacteria.
These people are merely murderers. How the left is so goddamn gullible for any grievance ideology is a serious weakness that should be merely ignored by everyone until it withers away due to its own internal contradictions.
Sam,
I think the first place they should escalate is at home.
Them mosques have been spouting this s... for years.
Same here,
Ask Steve Emerson. ?
Or watch the video made YEARS ago.
Wonder if the little turd G8 protesters will wear their Hamas scarves again today?
Hey speaking of jack's clockwork idiocy, has bin Laden al-ArabTrustfundbaby provided a revised list of grievances lately, or is he still on the "80 years of woe, woe!" tip?
jack.random,
The phrase "War on Terror" will some day be put in the same category as "Arsenal of Democracy". That was all Roosevelt could get away with until he could call as spade a spade.
I believe we are watching the slow collapse of all the nice little barriers of political correctness which have grown around the medieval ideology called Wahabism. The Left is dying from the dagger of Islam plunged repeatedly into its back. As they are glad to recieve the wounds, well let them.
I think people like Fouad Ajami understand quite clearly that unless Islam reforms it will quite literally blow itself up, one way or the other. It's a race against time really. That we are in a war is indisputable. The only question remaining is whether the casualties will be numbered in the thousands or the billions. The Left, if left alone, will guarantee it is in the billions. But they are dying from their own stupidity, so there's hope yet.
hell doug, just ask van Gough.
Oh, they killed him, already.
We, here in the US, present a much softer target than London. It is just a that these Islamists are mostly incompetent. Lucky for US.
If they were any good at War we would be in deep caca.
Ok, Doug. Let's work the numbers, find the pattern, connect the dots:
9-11
3-11
7-7
Skye News (Fox on London) now reporting 45 dead, up to 1000 injuries, 150 serious, still people trapped underground.
re Dan's comments about the market: prior to 9/11, I was working for an options exchange, dealing with monitoring suspicious trading activity.
Two trading days before 9/11 there was VERY unusually heavy activity in "put" stock options in certain stocks (several airlines, insurance companies, etc). Part of bin Laden's orders to his followers was to loot the wealth of the infidels. This caused much internal discussion at the time.
I hope the UK financial authorities are planning on a thorough statistical analysis of options trading and short selling prior to the incidents
"The Left is dying from the dagger of Islam plunged repeatedly into its back. As they are glad to receive the wounds, well let them.
"
I know I'm sick, but I laugh uncontrolably at that picture!
Papa,
What do you think about the terrorism options idea?
The left in Europe is already spinning this. Some are calling for the global peace movement to oppose terrorism and war -- which probably means the U.S. and the U.S. only for some of them. Others, such as Prodi, is calling only for unity. Unity will save us. Let's sit and hold our hands, and they won't dare to attack us.
There was some strange stuff in the Australian mkts, too, just prior to 911.
If you try to do something with the mosques, how do you answer the following questions?
Where is the line drawn that separates activism from terrorism?
Who are you going to trust to set that line, police it, and ultimately punish offenders?
Are you going to apply this monitoring/judgement/action to all religious organizations, or just the ones you're not a member of?
There is more than enough terrorism to go around, I don't think we need to start implementing it ourselves, against our own citizens no less.
Yeah Papa--I remember that coming up. I had some friends on the floor and they noticed some unusual activity. Time to rev up that Patriot Act.
Bush stopped by Denmark on his way to the G8 summit.
On that occasion an ad hoc group of 34 leftist groups and organisation, as well as a number of individuals, had organised a demonstration in Copenhagen. Here’s a list of some of the organisers:
* DKP/ml (Danish Communistic Party/Marxists Leninists)
* DKP (Danish Communistic Party)
* DKU (Danish Communistic Youth)
* IS/U (International Socialists)
* SUF (Socialist Youth Front)
* APK (Workers Communistic Party)
* WCPI (Worker-Communist Party of Iran)
* Swedish Communistic Youth
* Red Youth
* KPiD (Communist Party of Denmark)
* Muslimer i Danmark (Muslims of Denmark), v. Abdul Wahid Petersen – who favour stoning of unfaithful women
* The Palestinian Organisation
* Boycott Israel Campaign
* www.CensurNyt.dk – Run by Peter Kofod a human bomb shield from the Iraq war.
* Danish – Cuban organisation
* Attack Denmark
* Friendship organisation Denmark – The Democratic Peoples republic of Korea (North Korea)
…. There’re more. But mostly what is really mindboggling is that these organisations are joined by 18 labour organisations. Two established parties present in the Danish parliament (SF – Socialistic Peoples Party, and Enhedslisten – motley collection of parties to the left) and a number of respected artists and individuals - none of which apparently have any problems aligned themselves with extreme fringe communistic parties, Islamists and (for me worst of all) North Korean apologists. Such is what the left wing has come to.
There’s also some feminist organisations. It’s nearly surreal to see feminists marching together with Islamists who are on record saying unfaithful women should ideally be stoned, and women not properly veiled are disgusting whores whom have only themselves to blame if they are raped.
They had planned on up to 30.000 attendances, fortunately only 10.000 – 12.000 showed. (we also had a pro-Bush rally)
- I used to be a leftist myself, but these days they simply disgust me. There’s just nothing there anymore. Joining hands with fascists, Stalinists and Islamists. They completely lost all connection with reality, their own ideological and historic roots not to speak of human decency.
One thing so far is striking. I cannot find anyone in Europe so far that is saying that the bombs in London have been placed there, maybe, just maybe, by Muslim extremists. I guess the EU elites are scared. They don't want to upset the suburbs of Rome, Paris or Amsterdam.
Looks like the homicide bomb(s) in the bus (s) were coordinated to explode after the buses filled with evacuees from the subways. People still trapped below ground, "emergency amputations" being done amongst the subway trains below ground.
Jack,
We start with the National Presbytery...
rune, welcome to the light side.
Jack, the line between terrorism and activism is murder, obviously.
No one's advocating nuking a outdoor hippie festival for example.
C'mon, man! Focus.
By the way, doesn't this seem like a sort of small attack? Like a prelude or something, a test?
"were coordinated to explode "
Isn't that special?
Buddy,
Source?
And if anyone hears what type of explosive it was, please post...
guys, I am not sure this is a test. (1) Madrid was not a test, it was it. (2) al-quaeda is alive but not as well organized as 3-5 yrs ago. (3) you don't want to "test" because it would simply alert the police/security apparatus even more.
I just won the triple crown at 6:31 AM
London, as anyone who's been on the public transit system there knows is a much harder target than anything in the USA. I'm not convinced that the choice of that target was the result of incompetence. Why hit London over other choices?
Is it because they believe they can pull off a repeat of Madrid? If so, why didn't this happen before the elections?
Papa Bear: That theory was fortunately proved not to hold water – at least of the 9/11 attack. Maybe the terrorists have learned though.
http://www.nationalreview.com/rose/rose200407260700.asp
Part of the answer is tucked away in a footnote on page 499 of the 9/11 Commission Report. The commissioners, basing their findings upon exhaustive research of millions of transactions by the Securities and Exchange Commission, note that "some unusual trading did in fact occur, but each such trade proved to have an innocuous explanation." Moreover, "the trading had no connection with 9/11." So what happened? "A single U.S.-based institutional investor with no conceivable ties to al Qaeda purchased 95 percent of the UAL puts on September 6." This same institution, as part of a complex trading strategy, also purchased 115,000 shares of AMR on September 10. But what about the spike in AMR puts trading on September 10? It turns out that a "U.S.-based options trading newsletter, faxed to its subscribers on Sunday, September 9...recommended these trades." Readers jumped in headfirst come Monday morning, only to strike it tragically lucky the next day.
Recall, as well, the mood of the summer of 2001. By early September, the airline industry was in the doldrums after the dot.com meltdown hit business and vacation travel. On September 5, meanwhile, Reuters, the news service widely followed by Wall Streeters, quoted analysts as saying that "a further deterioration" in airline financials was probable. Translation: Bail out now, boys. Matters were not helped by AMR's announcement two days later that its third- and fourth-quarter losses would be larger even than already forecast. Immediately, airline analysts downgraded AMR, as did hotel specialists, and a wave of shorting hit the travel industry (people even took positions in Royal Caribbean Cruise lines and Cruise Lines Carnival Corps).
As a result, investors hurled themselves into the puts market, desperate to lock in profits or make a killing if AMR went bust. The panic was not restricted only to AMR: Speculators rightly predicted that UAL would also go from bad to worse, and took their bear positions accordingly. Thus, the short interest on UAL was up, as I've said, 40 percent over the previous month (and AMR's by 20 percent), but the average for the other major airlines was 11 percent during the same period. While UAL's and AMR's short interest was greater than the airline average — reflecting widespread pessimism as to their chances — keep in mind that the average short ratio of all stocks on the exchange reportedly rose by one percent: pretty much every airline was getting clipped that summer compared to the rest of the market. In other words, American and United were in deep trouble even before September 11, and the market reacted normally (well, perhaps a little overheatedly) to bad news and darkened forecasts.
As for the ESPD rumor, yes, the stock — in common with most Nasdaq tech listings, a highly volatile one in the first place (it's Beta today is a whopping 1.886) — had gone into a tailspin thanks to the short-sellers, but by Monday, September 10, it had bounced to $8.69 — or 74 cents above its September 7 closing price. If Osama was an eSpeed short-seller, he had his wallet pick-pocketed by the longs on that occasion. (Since then, ESPD's lagged behind the major indexes).
The mysterious London trades, it turns out, were the work of a small European airline that was following a tried-and-true hedging strategy against a downturn (wisely, it seems). And as for Munich Re, the stock had been dropping since the beginning of September, and a week before September 11, two brokerages cut their ratings on the firm owing to their concerns about deterioration in the capital markets.
It is hardly likely, in any case, that a cell of terrorists, having planned these attacks for some years, would risk detection by the Security and Exchange Commission just a few days before they pulled the trigger. Even granting that bin Laden himself might be somewhat more sophisticated financially than his Taliban protectors, it is most improbable that his accomplices and sympathizers around the world were au fait with the workings of the derivatives market. And for executing options orders of the magnitude of early September, one would require the services of a major institutional broker — you try inputting "Buy 4,500 AMR October Puts" on E*Trade without getting a quizzical call from the broker. That kind of access would have been far beyond the means of anyone who could possibly have known in advance of the attacks.
Conspiracies do exist in this world but the UAL and AMR affair was not one of them. Sometimes, the most complex events have deceptively simple causes.
jack.random,
Those are all good questions susceptible to rational answers. The simplest is to throw every Islamist who is prepared to use force to spread his religion into the deepest and darkest hole on the planet. Everything else is activism. But since the Guantanamo=Nazi folks have made this course harder to take things will drag on until we reach the political stage where folks won't care about rational answers. And war, when it truly and finally comes in its naked form, is nothing but a situation in which rational answers don't matter. It's been called a form of madness, but that's not quite true. It was the getting there that was the madness.
Right now, we still have the option of excising this cancer and beating it with a little chemotherapy. But when it gets bad we're going to have to amputate, blast it with cobalt and do whatever else it takes to clear out the system. With luck, something of civilization will survive the treatment. The European Left want to hold hands and declare Peace. See? The madness has started already.
James, FoxNews broadcasting interviews with witnesses on the street. Someone mentioned being turned away from the tubes in the first minutes, and climbing on a bus. Then, behind her, the next bus exploded.
Perhaps it isn't a test, but Madrid's attack was directed to influence the election there, which clearly worked, whatever they claim to the contrary.
But if this isn't a test--and i think, short of a nuclear attack/blackmail, the next step is coordinated attacks on 2 continents--then what is the intention? To steal headlines from the G8? But who cares about the G8, really? And how could this be expected to directly influence it? Perhaps, in there hermetic worlds, the Islamist cells and milieu have convinced themselves too certainly of the geopolitical cowardice which Europe has displayed (at least from their point of view), but what exactly would that mean? I just can't make any inferences here. Thoughts?
"- I used to be a leftist myself, but these days they simply disgust me."
Lots of us here were, just depends on how long ago.
Now we're NeoBelmonteers,
except for ex-dem,
an agent hiding behind that Nick.
Dan, that is a fine point to put the line. We already have plenty of laws dealing with murder though, do we need more? Lets treat them as organized criminals, and be very clear that is how we feel about it, at least as a government.
Don't get me wrong, people, these are bad guys, and they need to be dealt with, and I'm all for a no mercy approach when we've got our hands on them.
I'd like to see an approach that killed the fleas and the eggs, not just the fleas every time we get a few bites, to use a lame analogy.
julius, you're right. On average it looks like it takes AQ 2 years to pull off some kind of attack. If they could they would test with something small then hit with something bigger right away. But they can't. This is it. For now.
Not only did Sky News give us that news, but our Kevin delivered a similar report earlier today.
nittypig,
"ROLF TOPHOVEN, DIRECTOR OF THE TERRORISM RESEARCH INSITUTE IN ESSEN, GERMANY
"London is a centre of Islamist propaganda in Europe. There have been permanent, massive threats since the involvement of the British government in the Iraq war.
Let's not forget that the main enemy for the Islamists is the United States, and that's not just since Sept. 11, 2001 and Tony Blair is the closest ally of George W. Bush, so from that point of view it makes sense to hit the closest ally of the USA.
This is another parallel with Madrid."
(from the NR Corner)
Because this is a fantasy ideology which operates, due to the contraints it imposes upon itself for various cowardly reasons, outside the ken of the prevailing public and academic discourse, and for that reason it must be addressed bluntly, specifically and specially.
I recommend you review the history of Germany's war guilt from 1867 - 1939 (cf. Fritz Fischer) and decide whether you truly believe these things cannot be diagnosed, comprehended, anticipated and dealt with before cities lie in ruins. Also cf. recent Iraqi accounts of the way Islamists who took over their town treated them. This is not mere organized crime.
re Doug's comment ' Papa,
What do you think about the terrorism options idea?"
Doug, what do you mean?
And everybody knows that it's now or never
Everybody knows that it's me or you
And everybody knows that you live forever
Ah, when you've done a line or two
Everybody knows the deal is rotten
Old Black Joe's still pickin' cotton
For your ribbons and bows
And everybody knows
And everybody knows that you're in trouble
Everybody knows what you've been through
From the bloody cross on top of Calvary
To the beach at Malibu
Everybody knows it's coming apart
Take one last look at this Sacred Heart
Before it blows
And everybody knows
ADE
With thanks to our Canadian, Leonard Cohen
While it takes some time to set up an attack, the date for the commencement of the trial of Abu Hamza (I thought it was 6/7/2005) has been known for some time.
I can't for the life of me understand what the rationale would be for drawing attention to terrorism while one of your leaders is on trial for advocating it, but then, I've come to the conclusion that I don't think in the same way as an Islamic Fanatic.
Mirada rights and fair trials are accorded to mere criminals. I'm all for that.
These Barbarians are beyond criminal. This is not extortion or spousal abuse. This is beyond drug trafficing or drive by shootings.
WE ARE AT WAR.
You can believe it or not
The Opfor believe it
Papa,
Now I forgot his name,
but he got kicked out of CIA, or Pentagon for it.
He was going to offer terrorism options and then track those trends and orders.
Sounds a little too obvious now, but was good enough then for the MSM to get him fired.
An old, and VERY innovative thinker.
(had lots of previous credits)
In the morning I think I can have google desktop find a good article on him.
re: rune's comments and the excerpt from national review: I'm aware of the official story. All I can say is that I was there, it was not limited to a couple of airlines, and from the conference call to the European exchanges, there was unusual activity over there too, particularly on the German exchange
My personal speculation: the trail led to people who, for political reasons, could not be touched or exposed without major political complications (eg members of the Saudi royal family)
Looks like good compendium of mrkets oddities around 911.
AQ/Iraq has announced the killing of the Ambassador-to-be from Egypt (kidnapped a few days ago).
"If it is Islamic terrorism — jihadist terrorism — they are sending a message that the leaders of the industrial world are being mocked and laid low by the jihadist terrorists.”
--Richard Clarke (from The Corner)
"Mocked and laid low"? This from the man who failed utterly, who is our personal Chamberlin viz. bin Laden and Islamism? Why is he still permitted to speak?
No doubt there are those who will say that Britain brought forth the attacks on itself by teh troops it sent to Iraq and Afgahnistan. But in WWII the British suffered far worse "terror" attacks than this and responded by sending bombers over Germany. The question is: Asuuming the legendary stiff upper lip and spine of English steel is still there, what today would be the equivalent of dispatching Lancasters to destroy Hamburg and Mosquitos to interrrupt a speech by Goring?
The alarm clock has now rudely rung in Britain. Which aspect of the sleeping body politic will awaken...
Chamberlain...or Churchill
So, it's probably not a test. And you are right, who cares about the G8. But influencing elections? Hmmm... Tony Blair is in power, no elections scheduled anytime soon. Why not Italy then?
I'd imagine the Brit units in Basra are already relecting a changed attitude.
mog,
Glad to hear your thought process is not on AQ Track! ;)
"ALSO IN LONDON THIS WEEK [K. J. Lopez]
AP:
Radical Islamic cleric Abu Hamza al-Mazri has appeared in a London court on charges including encouraging the murder of Jews and other non-Muslims.
Tuesday had been set for the start of Abu Hamza's trial, but the first session was taken up with legal arguments, which are expected to continue all week. Court orders forbid any reporting of the arguments, which take place without a jury present."
Doug, re terrorism options: I thought it was a great idea, although politically incorrect. It would also be a threat to incompetents who could not successfully "put their money where their mouths were"
Market mechanisms are an excellent way to discover who actually knows what he's doing. Which is why some people dislike the method
They care about the G8
All the MSM is there, all the Leaders are there.
The meessage is that even at the core of the most secure city in the Anglosphere, while the Leaders of the Western World are in country, no one is safe.
Terrorism is not about elections, it is about fear.
Hm. I guess you're right rat, but don't you think it's time for them, from their perspective, to launch strategic attacks, and not what in the wake of the fall of Afghanistan and Iraq are surely merely aesthetic--though certainly tragic for those direct affected--at this point?
Wesley Clark, Ramsey Clark, Richard Clarke.
hmmmm.
A wimp and two nutjobs.
Warning - Opinionated, non-fact-based analysis here ...
I suspect there will be a watchful period now. If anything gets 'done' by the polity it will be inneffectual vandalism and arson against known activist mosques like Finchley (Hamza's home turf). I don't expect there to be lynchings, but I do suspect that muslims who have been and are unwise enough to support or attempt to validate these attacks (assuming they turn out to be AlQ) will end up in the outpatient department of the nearest hospital.
At the end of this period (duration unknown) there will be progressive public condemnation of the government for its inaction with respect to the continuing agitation of the more outspoken Imams, and it'll start getting very ugly.
"Paki Bashing" was for a while a very popular and utterly degrading facet of British youth culture. It'll be back.
Incidentally, degraded though I believe British culture to have become, London is not Madrid. What you're seeing is not stunned incomprehension in the public. It's entirely in character.
rat, i agree--power is as power does. They did it to show they could do it, even despite the gathered security services of the top industrial nations of the world.
In part, I'd agree, Buddy, but the point is that the attention was focused on a venue 400 miles away.
My money, even though I can't understand why, is on the Al Hamza trial being the reason.
Surely London has to retaliate, don't they? I would be dumbfounded if they didn't. After this?
doug -- as a belmonteer with both family members and friends still living in my home town of london, your bizarre insult is not well taken today.
Why is he still permitted to speak?
That he may be more easily mocked.
Dream headline:
"G8 leaders, in response to 7-7 Blitz, agree to cooperatively expropriate control over OPEC for a period of 5 years beginning immediately. Purpose, to kill Al Qaida."
If they had capacity or capability they would.
Here in AZ a lightning fire has scorched hundreds of thousands of acres. Took 1400 firefighters to weeks to contain it.
The DC snipers were idiots and look how long they remained at large.
Anyone with a small chicken ranch has all the raw material needed to match OK City.
Lucky US that these guys are not very good.
As W stated in the beginning the London op may have needed 40 plus operatives to accomplish.
If I had four teams of 10 operators and wanted to terrorize US you would have at least 90-120 days of sheer pandamonium.
No suicide bombing required.
Even YOU know, so what would you DO
Headphones on.
ADE
''Rejoice, Islamic nation. Rejoice, Arab world. The time has come for vengeance against the Zionist crusader government of Britain in response to the massacres Britain committed in Iraq and Afghanistan,'' said the statement, translated by The Associated Press in Cairo.
The AP was unable to access the Web site where it was posted, which was closed quickly after the reports.
. Responsibility Claim.
The whole basic question of how these groups or "suspects" or "perpetrators" should be treated seems to stem from the fact that we are facing something that seems outside of our judicial considerations. And we seem to have two preferred responses: pushing them into the legal system with its existing categories or going outside of it completely.
Perhaps we need to come up with new laws. We had the RICO legislation to develop means of dealing with organized crime. The realization that this is a war could be helpful, unfortunately too many people regard a "real war" as being something that can only be waged by nation states. I'm not quite sure what the solution is, but it seems attempting to fit 19th and early 20th century legal thought onto a distinct 21st century phenomenon will leave us rather paralyzed.
Ha Buddy--that Would be a dream headline, wouldn't it.
Well, Galloway has issued his ritualistic "I told you so" relative to the London attacks and the British involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Maybe that is how for the British to respond.
Take what Galloway says and do the exact opposite.
Nuke Em.
Sorry ex dem, I was kidding, but once again failed miserably.
Hope all is well in London.
Thoughts of Winston Churchill keep coming to me. Will the British people have what it took to defeat Nazism? Will they stand up and fight as they did before?
Do not suppose that this is the end. This is only the beginning of the reckoning.This is only the first sip, the first foretaste of a bitter cup which will be proffered to us year by year unless by a supreme recovery of moral health and martial vigour, we arise again and take our stand for freedom as in the olden time. - Winston Churchill
Or will they follow the lead of George Galloway?
We have worked without rest to remove the causes of such violence from our world. We argued, as did the Security Services in this country, that the attacks on Afghanistan and Iraq would increase the threat of terrorist attack in Britain. Tragically Londoners have now paid the price of the government ignoring such warnings. - George Galloway
Hopefully the former, not the latter. For giving into terrorists only breeds more terrorism. When they see their way produces results, they will continue on.
And where IS Peter?
Piracy: zero tolerance, put em up against a wall and pull the trigger. Use their secrecy, conspiracy, and etc. against them. "We cannot prosecute you according to our existing legal system: we will therefore execute you. Your choice, suckers."
A little less Chirac, a little more Putin: "We do not negotiate with terrorists, we destroy them."
HA. A little Slav bravado would suit us well. Because the nuke is coming.
rat is right. two snipers shut down quite a bit of the normal activity in several eastern seaboard states not long ago. Equipment, a rifle and a car with a shoot-hole cut into the trunk-lid.
ex-dem, hope all is okay with yours.
Mog--yes, but PM Blair is G8 host--and London is infiltrated already. Coalesce of the do-able and the symbol.
But, doom-and-gloom is almost a local aside, Wretchard is right, the movement's successes are local, and each one trades strategic losses for every local victory. And--as Israel attests--each murder desensitizes the next murder, and the horror/submission strategy wears itself out in its own execution.
Let me be obnoxious and advertise my own blow
http://juliusagricola.blogspot.com/
My latest entry is on appeasement. I think the EU left (and some American leftists) are continuing to think that terrorists can be appeased. They can't be deterred or defeated, hence we have to give them what they want. The issue is what they want -- the left thinks it's the U.S., and whatever the U.S. represents. As long as we oppose the U.S., we are safe.
Chamberlain is alive and well.
I'm from Belfast, and I've lived in London. And I don't really give a flying fuck who or what did this bombing or why.
Official response should always be, "An attack from one scummy terrorist group should be considered as an attack from all scummy terrorist groups, and fuck your 'reasons', nobody here gives a fuck. Prepare to meet Allah/Marx/The Earth Goddess."
I'm starting to get on the same page as ADE. But I think we can do it without destroying Mecca. But by all means do it in a big way. We took care of Japan without destroying Tokyo.
Ok Ok,
Vis a Vis the Western Intellectual tradition (WIT), and it's profound impact on the IslamicSphere, we can only conclude:
Nuke 'Em.
And, sadly, I'm not joking.
But look to the future. Music, girls, happiness, A Belmont Club where we can discuss ideas relevant to the future, art, poetry. Jeez, am I starting to sound leftist?
Doug, set me straight.
ADE
Here is a more complete time line
9-11 + 1 yr, 1 month, 1 day = Bali bombings 10-12-2002
11-28-2002 = Mombasa hotel bombing
9-11 + 1.5 yrs = Madrid 3-11-2004
9-9-2004 Australia Embassy in Jakarta bombing
7-7-2005 London
I am convinced that the symbolic timing of Bali and Madrid were NOT coincidences, and the Australian Emb bombing was only off by 2 days.
Take. The. Gloves. Off.
ADE,
You are not a leftist, carry on.
...but no beer, rock and roll and etc.
There's a technological alternative to taking oil away from OPEC (which is only going to work for so long anyway); we can eliminate the need for oil. It would solve other problems too.
Two posts on the subject:
Zinc: Miracle metal?
Going negative
Oil infrastructure is quite vulnerable, as Iraq has proven. If we tried to take over another major producer, production cuts from attacks would cause world-wide economic chaos. What we should be doing (that we are not) is taking an economic dagger and aiming it at OPEC's throat (and Putin's re-nationalized economy too): not take oil away from them, but make it irrelevant. I believe it's possible.
Engineer poet:
'Rat can take care of the oilfields while we lure the masses out of their SUVs.
(He buys us time)
sam
LeMay burned tokyo to the ground
Hundreds of thousands killed
Oh Doug, thanks! (not joking)
Rock 'N Roll! I was reared on Boogie Woogie. By my mother. In a pub. In Ireland
Man, of all things, I'll go down fighting for Sweet Home Alamaba. That riff. That beer - well that Guiness.
"There are more things in Heaven and Earth"
ADE
Mayor of London made a mighty solid off-the-cuff speech. He was in Singapore, I believe, speaking to the press at the airport on his way home. He was harsh on the perps. Isn't he normally a far-lefty?
Any explosives experts out there? Check out this photograph. The explosion clearly did a hell of a lot of damage to the bus's structure, but the wreckage is remarkably char-free. It looks like the type of explosive used created a very high pressure blast but little flame. Anyone with some expertise in this area?
Something needs to shake the general Muslim community out of its lethargy; I wonder if, in the long run, riots and mosque burnings would be the best thing to happen?
If Kenny Livingstone was tough on terrorists, it's only because he doesn't want to get beaten to a bloddy pulp by an angry mob when he goes home.
Please, let's not blame Islam. "Islam" means "peace", "osama" means "gay marriage", "saddam" means "tolerance", "al-qaeda" means "make love, not war."
Global markets so far, down, but not much--and recovering. Less and less effect, each incident. They're gonna need to grab a big OPEC government, to do the global extort that seemed so possible a few years ago.
I don't think the 'rat needs to be there. Once OPEC gets the idea that their black stuff is going to be of much less value in the near future, they will do the obvious: try to unload it as fast as they can, while they still can. This will drive prices (and OPEC/Saudi income) down. It will also put an end to hoarding and speculation.
What we need is an effort that is viewed as serious. Unfortunately, Bush (the oil man) is constitutionally unable to stand for a USA which is repudiating petroleum.
Ok, rat. I guess I was talking nukes.
ADE,
Ever tried Sierra Nevada?
USA's best, IMO.
...if you like hops.
Was fun when we got Blitzed Here.
I have great confidence that the British people will take the appropriate measures following this, kstagger. I believe criminal appeasers like George Galloway are the exception, not the rule.
But will the "moderate" Muslims that we are constantly hearing about take the same steps as well? The recent case of an imam in California dismissed for inflammatory rhetoric is encouraging, but seemingly isolated.
Let us remember that there were plenty of Japanese that opposed the Imperial Japanese military, but apparently not enough to keep out Jimmy Doolittle, with all of Hell following soon after. If the moderates are unwilling or unable to rein in their religious co-adherents, they can expect, unfortunately, to be victims of the madness they failed to stop.
Sorry, the link I provided was faulty. Try this one.
Brian Akira
Your nuancing and sensitivity is such an example, I'll call off the 1000 bombers. I'm SO ashamed of my evil thoughts.
ADE
The PC consequences of 21st century nukes makes their use problematic.
Don't really need them though.
Selective violence is really preferable to nuclear genocide.
LeMay showed US the way
Doug
Sierra Nevada?
Are they a band?
I've been in the Sierras, while following Route 66. Doug, have you ever planed to motor West?
ADE
"Jihad" means "Hey, Ahmed, you feel like going to London or Paris for the weekend (oops, not this weekend though!) and getting some blonde hookers with big fake tits? Or how about we just hang around the casbah all afternoon while our Palestinian drones do all the scut-work and we can spread our paranoid delusions about the Jews and figure out ways to keep our women as slaves?"
Looks like a thumper, but not to large a one.
Took the roof of the bus, but did not flatten it. Seats are still in upright and locked position. The suspension and tires still upright.
Windshield still intact.
Not much of a device.
Dan,
You asked about our policies that offend. Google "fatwa, Osama" and read both the 96 and 98 fatwas.
As W is pounding home in this thread, there is no negotiating with this enemy. Unless you count the kind of "negotiating" Harry Truman did with the Japanese. Total defeat is the only answer, but unfortunately that defeat is not of a military nature only. The Islamic societies that foster these suicidal dead-enders must be convinced that they have to root out the cancer, or die from the side-effects.
ADE.
Most sucessful true microbrew in US.
Ales: Red Tail Stout my fav.
Northern Calif. (Chico)
I Grew up in CA.
Flames are a Hollywood effect, the result of the special effects guys adding things like gasoline and rubber cement to the explosion; its not a not a normal explosive situation. The primary effect of any explosive is blast. After that comes debris carried by the blast and after that blast effects such as broken windows, which create a very localized but potentially lethal debris hazard. At certain distances you can be perfectly fine outside when a blast goes off but be killed if you were standing inside in front of a window. When we analyze the effects of explosives where I work, fire does not enter into it. Firebrands can become important in cases such as rocket failures, where you may have lots of fuel, but not when you have just an explosive.
bomb was in the rear of the bus, upper level. looks like it ripped the roof off like a sardine can, rear to front.
NR Corner:
"MARIN STEVANSKI, EYEWITNESS: "I just experienced a huge explosion on the underground. Glass flew into my back...As I went past a carriage I could see bodies on the ground."
"
Assuming vechicles around the bus have not moved since strike, there is another indication of a small blast. Notice that the windows of those vechiles are intact.
Doug
Red Tail Stout - Like Creamy head, froth on mistache, smell of peat, aroma of bog mists. Now this is what we must give up for Muhammod (Peace be Unto him). What a gobshite (Peace be unto him).
Brian Akira
No Brian, it's worse than that.
Here's the mind set:
"Oh look, there's Brian, the last non Muslim on the planet. He won't submit, so let's kill him".
That's how it goes, everybody knows.
ADE
Sorry, it was just Red Tail Ale.
(named after numerous neat predators in CA.)
Still worth fighting for.
Must have been the MSM "beer" fogging the memory.
...plus it's 5:30am
OUT!
in agreement with rwe, never much flame in a blast.
in oil well fire fighting the blast extingushes the fire.
On the Iraqi challenge of car bombings and our military reaction to it.
In London it is the Bobbies that are on scene, not the Army. The SAS may take down the perps if pinpointed, but they are not the ones investigating
Skill sets required are not military but police.
Oh Doug
Are you just another vast right wing conspiracy?
But doesn't matter. I'll fight for Red Tail Ale too.
ADE
PS Just buy warmer pyjamas.
I spent a good part of last summer doing a detailed "what if" exercise that started with "If a terrorist truck bomb went off at this spot, what would happen, which buildings are most vulnerable, how many casualties would there be?"
Everybody knows Islam is hateful
Everybody knows it's going to heck
Everybody knows you should be grateful
Each day they don't slit your neck
Everybody knows you spurned the offers
Osama's still killin' kaffirs
They're all his foes
And everybody knows.
Nuking Mecca and Medina would be a last resort and certainly not on the horizon at present. However, a law, on the Ataturk model, forbidding the wearing of any form of muslim dress, would force the choice between integration and expulsion. Additionally, the police could video services at mosques with a view to collecting evidence for sedition charges
Heyhey Doug--Sierra Nevada's my favorite home brew too--nice!
By the way, anyone ever try Singha? Friggin good, and surprising from the Thai, whose beer I generally find terrible.
Right tony--those fatwas. I just wondered if anything'd been updated.
Submitting to the logical consequences of an originally perverse worldview is no way to deal with an enemy. More punitive expeditions, please.
"Doug said...
WHAT IS TO BE DONE? [Cliff May]
CNN chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour just asked some expert whether there is anything that can be done to prevent such attacks.
Part of the answer – a part you won’t hear often – is this: When terrorists are captured they must be effectively interrogated in order to find out what they know about terrorist plots, cells and procedures.
No, that doesn’t mean torture. Yes, that does mean subjecting enemy combatants to “stress and duress,” using the most effective psychological methods to influence them to reveal what they know."
Doug, I actually just made a post about this.
If you're interested, http://yankeestation.blogspot.com/2005_06_01_yankeestation_archive.html#112017015506267135
Wretchard is absolutely correct. The time for nuanced and politically correct value judgments is long gone.
The Brits historically have been quite ruthless in defense of their freedoms.
I'll believe it when I see Galloway and Red Ken riding a rail in Trafalgar Square.
goesh said it right at the top! The majority of Brits will blame themselves. Such nice, lovely people, and so naive.
If they would only waken they have the tools to strike a true blow, but within 60 days their 'bleeb' and msm will be calling the suicide bombers "insurgents".
Nobody is blinder than those who do not wish to see.
Enginer Poet
Good to see you followed the references. Love your verse!
The awful thing, we all know.
But people die, when we all know.
Will London bring out the dilemma - kill a few (some innocent) to save millions, because that's the equation.
I fear it will not. On my radio today: Some mob what wants to posture (bad grammer intentional) for my "compassion" has suggested that Fish and Chips should not be on the menu of the LA Aquarium because it "gives the wrong message" to children re fish.
So, if you can't fry fish, how can we nuke Islamo murderers (Peace Be Unto Them).
Oh dear, i submit.
ADE
Yeah, F' em.
W said (falsely once again):
----------------------
These coordinated attacks are, technically speaking, at far higher level of sophistication than the Madrid attacks of 3/11 which involved a single train.
----------------------------
The Madrid bombings involved 4 trains.
From the damage I see, it looks like the explosives were slow-speed like propane or natural gas.
Compare the Isreali buses to the London double-decker. The Isreali buses are bent and broken - debris and body parts are tossed for hundreds of yards. The double-decker is opened up , but not bent up - and the debris is just around the bus.
At Least 33 killed in Blast
Well, there you have it. Nuances, anybody?
ADE
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red river
yeah a thumper, my guess, amonium nitrate, about 4 or 5 pounds, not more than 10.
easier to carry than a gas canister
"A group calling itself the Secret Organization Group of al Qaida of Jihad Organization in Europe claimed responsibility for the attacks on an Islamic website.
The message said: "O nation of Islam and nation of Arabism: Rejoice for it is time to take revenge from the British Zionist Crusader Government in retaliation for the massacres Britain is committing in Iraq and Afghanistan.
"The heroic mujahidin have carried out a blessed raid in London. Britain is now burning with fear, terror, and panic in its northern, southern, eastern, and western quarters."
Clearly this is a lie. The religion of peace could never have done this.
ADE (Peace be Unto Him)
Peter UK
Are you OK?
ADE (Peace Be Unto Him)
"Liberals may believe that accommodation, appeasement or flattery can change this correspondence."
Unless you are talking about the Galloway/G-8 protester socialist types, this throwaway comment seems uncalled for. I don't consider myself "liberal" as that term has come to be known, but which ones of those in the US are calling on the US to "accommodate, appease or flatter" terrorists? Why make a cheap political point over the steaming wreckage of yet another indiscriminate terror attack? Disagreement over Iraq policy does not mean disagreement over killing every bastard responsible for attacks like this, and implying that it does takes us away from any consenus on what needs to be done to end Islamist extremism.
wretchard;
"But a year later, we see the French, Germans and Spanish socialists in retreat over Europe." IMO, we have the Iraqis to thank for that. Their repudiation of the anti-democracy alternatives and insistance that Bush is the greatest friend they've ever had in the West are eating away at the soft fringes of the Left's support, faster and faster.
CM--
It is not a cheap political point, it is a salient aspect of the current (and former) conflict(s). That it would be construed as a merely "political" point is exactly the kind of comment that indicates the presumption that this is a predominantly POLITICAL conflict. Quite clearly, it is not. It is deeper, but the Left is incapable of descrying any "depth" beyond or apart from its socialistic ideological preoccupations. The point that the socialist or socialist-derivative Left is incapable of comprehending, or even apprehending, what is in fact happening must be made again and again and again until the Left surrenders its vanity and joins the fight.
20-25 pounds brissant explosive device, shattering effect. C-4/Semtex or similar. A TNT or Fuel/Fertilizer mix is more a powerful, ie. ,lift and push type explosive.
That help?
Senator Collins (R ME) says there was no intel or prior knowledge of this terror op.
Four years after 9-11 and we still cannot get operatives into their infrastructure. Johnny Taliban Walker made it through their training and reportedly met with UBL. Where is Blackford Oakes and Mr. Bond when we need them.
How inept we seem to have become.
What else should we expect, the CIA cannot even locate the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade. So sad
If one in ten Muslims supports AQ, then 90% don't support AQ. We should not gratuitously include that 90% in our crosshairs. That's precisely what the 10% wants us to do. The Iraqi armed services, for example, are Muslim allies upon whom we plan to depend quite heavily far into the future. Let's please not assume their religion is the enemy--how perfectly that would suit AQ! This is a tough thing, to make a distinction which seems wobbly. But it's the truth, isn't it? Don't we have Muslim allies?
Also, this is good.
CM,
Just look at the liberal response to the Palestinian issue over the years if you doubt the truth of that statement.
This is, in part, a political conflict. All warfare is political to a degree. I guess I could say that your comment indicates a lack of appreciation of the depths and complexities of the conflict....
But again, if you are talking about the "Left" in terms of the truly left, stealth socialists, then hell-- they are not going to wake up to the reality of this, because it is not in their nature. But if "Left" means American "liberals" then saying they want to "flatter or appease" murders like this is simply slander. I think the Democrat party is a hopeless hash of special interests (whereas the Republicans are a very effective hash of special interests), but as a group I don't think they want to stand down our military and send flowers to Osama. Pretending like that is the case does not help the larger effort.
right you are buddy
we do not need too commit nuclear genocide. Selective and precise violence against individuals. We used to be good at that, we could be again.
This just in from Stratfor:
"There has been massive confusion over a denial made by the Israelis that the Scotland Yard had warned the Israeli Embassy in London of possible terrorist attacks “minutes before” the first bomb went off July 7. Israel warned London of the attacks a “couple of days ago,” but British authorities failed to respond accordingly to deter the attacks, according to an unconfirmed rumor circulating in intelligence circles. While Israel is keeping quiet for the time-being, British Prime Minister Tony Blair soon will be facing the heat for his failure to take action."
Why would the Israelis go public with this at such a sensitive moment? This will compound Blair's problems and probably paralyze Britain from making an adequate response to these acts of terror. I don't believe in coincidence. Do you?
"Depth and complexities of the conflict"? This is precisely the idiocy that I was too polite to point out in the previous post. There is nothing deep and complex about this problem, CM: this is the basest, most common form of barbarism, morphed off of revolutionary Communism and its own Committee for Public Safety precursors--itself a form of barbarism. The political aspect of the fight is hypotrophied by the insoucience of societies still roundly infected with the sentiment, though a shadow of itself due to institutionalization, who attempt to degrade our society in general and response to terrorism in particular. The political aspect ought only be so thin as to be translucent. There is no sympathy that anyone outside the Sunni Arab Middle East ought to share with these people, for these people are the declared enemies of the former. I'm afraid that what's distracting the Left and the opposition is their bad intellectual habits which, drunk with dialectics and other bad intellectual habits, have succubed spiritually, and cannot see beyond the illusory realities cast by their philosophical funhouse mirrors. This is the least complicated of all possible calls to make. It is a measure of decadence and a partial confirmation of bin Laden's snickering accusations that it is not universally acknowledged to be so. Shameful.
exhelo--
Because the conservative response to the Palestinian situation over the years has been so much more effective, right? If Reagan had only had one more term, it would have been problem solved.
But cute rejoinders aside, wherever you fall on the Palestinian issue, I don't think it does us any damn good to analogize our war to their war. I think the Israelis are finally doing all they can do-- pull the least defensible (politically and literally) settlements, and build a big damn wall-- to address their security problems, but the Palestinians do have a legitimate historical grievance (i.e., the UN came in and said "your country is now their country") that has no analogy in our situation (no analogy to a sane, non-restore-the-caliphate-or-else mind, that is). The historical grievance doesn't justify or excuse Palestinian terrorism, but as in Chechnya (in a whole other way), there are issue to the broader goat-screw of history, politics, land, ethnicity, and what have you, that simply do not apply to our situation and do not help us to identify ourselves with.
Doug - Admiral Poindexter is the name you are looking for. He was in charge of DARPA and wanted to use markets and database combing to flag possible terrorist plots. Killed, and his career was killed by Liberal Democrats, squealing academia, the ACLU, and the predictable Black Helicopter Republicans who thought it was too great a menace to privacy.
Jack.Random
We already have plenty of laws dealing with murder though, do we need more? Lets treat them as organized criminals, and be very clear that is how we feel about it, at least as a government.
We were originally very clear that we were in a conflict in the days after 9/11 - not against criminals - but people waging war. The Civil Liberties crowd, well-funded liberal NGOs, the usual media suspects, and the Euroweenies counterattacked as complacency built as time has gone by with no evidence of major, constant warfare happening.
I personally think the ACLU, the liberal moneymen, and the Left is still too powerful to permit us to move past "total Koran respect" and full civil liberties and due process for terrorists and the radical Islamist idealogues driving this. And Team Bush has been clumsy, too vague on what they are doing past trite sloganeering, and too close to Israel to be considered a fair party.
Don't get me wrong, people, these are bad guys, and they need to be dealt with, and I'm all for a no mercy approach when we've got our hands on them
Jack, you want civilian trials with NYC shysters like Lyn Stewart and Saul Rubenstein demanding full public court discovery and disclosure of our intelligence sources and methods, pass them onto their friends, then demand....one day...trial when all the paperwork is perfect. Then, if everything is perfectly done in our "Crown Jewel" justice system - a conviction with a stiff jail sentence to strike fear in the perps and deter other suicidal Islamists (with taxpayer provided Mullahs and gourmet halal meals)
10 years after Scebernicia, no conviction of Mad Milo. 4 years after 9/11 the only civilian court conviction (in Germany) related to that attack was overturned.
Ha! What a joke. Lawyers taking the lead in fighting a war and calling the shots on how enemy are dealt with?????
Clearly civilian courts are by and large useless in this.
But it will take more blood as a price to further diminish the power of the Left, the ACLU, and the liberal moneymen feeding the activist NGOs to block what needs to be done.
When more blood is shed than the public can bear - the liberals lose power to defend the "rights" of murderous Islamoids. Then -
1. Terrorists and their active supporters are dealt with not as wayward criminals in need of reforming - but as traitors, spies, saboteurs and unlawful combatants. Dealt with by:
A. Military Tribunals & fast executions - not by lethal injection but by messy firing squad.
B. Firm interrogations. And no, accidentally stepping on a Koran is not "tantamount to torture". A Muslim terrorist that throws feces or semen at guards is not written up, but is gang-slammed and made to eat what he threw.
C. Establishing deterrance, not just layers of defense.
CM: Lets just talk about the Democratic party. Howard Dean and John Kerry. Not exactly war mongers are they? If the Democratic party doesn't do something to reverse the impression that they are wimps and cowards unwilling acknowledge the threat or defend the nation then Democratic party will be no more - we will become a one party nation. I'm a republican, but I still believe in the need for a viable opposition. Michael Moore isn't viable. Zel Miller on the other hand . . .
Noprisoners--there was also more high profile reaction to the claim that stated Scotland Yard warned Netanyahu just After the attack not to go to the hotel. 1) Your report could be accurate; 2) my report may be accurate; 3) anti-Israeli forces could have planted the story (like the apocryphal WTC warning). If Isreal had advanced warning and relayed it to Scotland Yard, perhaps it was among many such messages. Who knows. Coudl be bad but too early to call yet right?
CM--would you call Michael Moore a "liberal"?
I think, given the reports from liberals from Ted Kennedy to Michael Moore to Paul Krugman to Norman Mailer and Susan Sontag, the onus is on you, bud. What other lesson are we supposed to draw from their criticisms, eh?
Dan--
You are correct to this extent: if you know who the murders are, you kill them. That is simple and apolitical. This is precisely the limited point that most sane Americans agree on, "liberal" or not.
But the devil is in the details, right? It's easy to say, if you have a cancer in your body, kill the cancer. But chopping off limbs indiscriminately ain't the way to go about it. And disagreement over method is not a disagreement over goals or even a disagreement over the nature of the conflict.
I supported the decision to go to war in Iraq, and I am glad we got rid of Saddam and sons. But I read where the Pentagon is concerned with "bleedout" of trained terrorists from Iraq, the same kind of bleedout that has happened from every other terrorist hellhole in the last 15 years. I read about the Secretary of Defense is concerned that we have no "metrics" for judging whether we are winning or losing. And I can see that reasonable minds can disagree over whether we are taking the right steps to get rid of the cancer, and not just hacking away and doing as much harm as good. And I can see that in the absence of "metrics," and in light of unintended consequences, lack of support for this particular administration's efforts to date does not equal lack of support for the end goal, or even for violent and decisive action toward those goals. Pretending like Americans who disagree with you are all holdover comintern members does not accomplish much.
so now when the brits meet with hamas will it still be "welcome" to democracy? and still tell israel to not continue the cycle of violence?
My family and I stand with the people of Great Britain in their time of trial.
From BBC broadcasts it appears that many in Britain were in denial with respect to the GWOT and the designs of our common enemy the Islamofascists.
History shows; however, that the British are a formidable enemy when aroused.
The dispicable attacks that occurred in London today increase my conviction that Islamofascism in its current virulent form will be a short lived phenomenon.
The attacks also reinforce my conviction that Iraq was the next logical step in the GWOT and that our efforts there have improved our safety at home.
Let us now take increased devotion to our common cause with Britain - the destruction of Islamofacsism and the spread of freedom, liberty, and democracy in the Middle East.
Doug Santo
Pasadena, CA
Ha--CM, fair enough, and sorry for the insults. Bad form on my part. I have no argument with the reasonable; I do, however, tend to define that rather narrowly according to how I analyze the situation.
There will be no real progress in the war on terror until bombs begin to mysteriously go off in selected mosques during Friday prayer.
Without covert retribution, the west will not suceed in any real dimunation of terror.
Yes, I would call Michael Moore a Leftist of the sort who will never wake up to the realities of the war. Or he could just see that his bread is buttered being what he is, and until he'll get paid more to be Rush Limbaugh II, he will not change his stripes. I would not include him in my list of "sane" Americans. You could probably pick almost anyone out of the recent issue of People magazine who are equally immune to reality. I'm not doubting that there are Leftist of the type you describe-- I hear thousands of them are camped outsied the G8 summit as we speak. They do not represent a significant percentage of the group that gets called "liberal" in this country, however.
And no, Dean is not a warmonger-- but I don't think he thinks we should send terrorists candy, either. Kerry is a warmonger, except when he isn't, and then he is not. Like I said, the Democrat party is a hopeless hash. But by and large not terrorist sympathisers, however.
Well said, Dan. One wonders just how much true encouragement is given to Bin Laden and his ilk by the Galloways, Ward Churchills as well as the "loyal opposition" in the West, those that express grave concern over possible "real grievances", and the spoiled brat G-8 protestor types. Or for that matter, by the supposed great concern over our own military casualties. Do the Bun Ladens truly believe that these buffoons, clowns, nutcases and oppotunists truly represent a genuine weakness in our society that proves that one good push can knock us over and open the gates for the march of militant Islam? Or would they be committing such acts anyway if they viewed us as an indomitable people with vast powers that can send men to the Moon and probes to distant planets on a whim - and thus only could derive from such terrorist acts the same kind of pleasure that young hoodlums do by knocking over mailboxes?
I really do not know.
But I do know that even if the Galloways, Chruchills, Kerrys and Teddies do in fact represent fully half of our population's views, the other half is ready, willing, and able to wield power that makes the worst we could do in WWII look small and overly timid. But do the terrorists not know this - or do not care?
cm wrote
"...Palestinians do have a legitimate historical grievance (i.e., the UN came in and said "your country is now their country") ..."
Ah so wrong charlie
Transjordon was the country, there was no Palistine. The transition created Israel and Jordon, the majority of the Jordanian population are ethnic Palistinians, they got their country. If the UN and the Arab countries had not locked the Pallistinians into the lifelong squalor of "Refugee" camps the challenge would have been solved long ago. Just look at Europe where millions of ethnic Germans were relocated after WWII. No refugee camps there, and no long term problems resulting from the forced migrations.
Dan--
No problem at all. I like this site a lot, because it wrestles with a lot of nuts and bolts issues that are critical and at the same time beyond anything any "regular" media outlet can do, regardless of political orientation.
But the practical concerns are exactly why I think it is counterproductive to tar gardern variety liberals or whatever we want to call them with the same brush as the Galloway/Guardian/Moore types. And even those types, like a broken clock, can be correct on occasion, and so bear monitoring.
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