The Blitz Comes to London
Terrorists have attacked multiple nodes of the London public transportation system according to CNN. At least 90 persons were injured in Aldgate Station alone. The BBC is reporting attacks on other stations:
Large numbers of casualties have been reported after at least six explosions on the Underground network and a double-decker bus in London.
UK Home Secretary Charles Clarke said several explosions in central London had caused "terrible injuries". The BBC's Frank Gardner said Arab sources said the blasts were probably the work of al-Qaeda but police have not confirmed a terrorist link.One caller to BBC Five said his friend had seen "the bus ripped open like a can of sardines and bodies everywhere". ... British Transport Police said incidents took place at Aldgate, Edgware Road, King's Cross, Old Street and Russell Square stations. ... Hospitals have said they are no longer accepting non-emergency cases, BBC Five Live reported.
These coordinated attacks are, technically speaking, at far higher level of sophistication than the Madrid attacks of 3/11 which involved a single train. The attack on London was a "time on target" attack which required simultaneity so that one incident did not compromise the subsequent. By implication the personnel involved received some degree of training and planned the operation in sufficient secrecy to prevent British security services from getting wind of it. The six attacks probably mean that a minimum of forty persons were involved, if those in support roles are included. The attackers must have an egress plan or access to safe houses where they can weather the inevitable crackdown.
Insular Britain, which fought a long terrorist war against the IRA is one of the hardest targets in the Western world. There is no reason, in principle, why similar attacks cannot happen on a larger or deadlier scale in some American or Australian city, less prepared than London -- or indeed anyplace in the world -- such as Thailand, India or the Philippines -- where they have happened already. As long as Islamic fundamentalist terror exists danger will exist. Liberals may believe that accommodation, appeasement or flattery can change this correspondence. But terrorism will remind the world as often as it needs reminding that there isn't room enough on the planet for Islamic terror and civilization.
Faster. Please.
Update
Additional reports from the BBC suggest that the number of casualties will be comparatively small. From the amount of damage caused, the explosive devices used appear to have been in the tens, rather than the hundreds of pounds. This is good news. It also means that the enemy has not grown in overall capability since the days of 9/11 and 3/11.
posted by wretchardthecat at 7/07/2005 04:03:00 AM
285 Comments:
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I wonder if anyone here will wake up?
I worry that our level of concern won't come near what Britains was for us on 9-11.
---
"Insular Britain, which fought a long terrorist war against the IRA is one of the hardest targets in the Western world."
---
Don't we have the advantage of a smaller, and less extreme, on average muslim population in house?
...and the chunnel kind of reduced the insular nature at least pre-9-11.
Did they get France to clean up the mess on their side where folks were regularly sneaking across, Peter?
How quickly some forget.
Faster indeed, and *better* faster at home, please!
...but Tancredo will remain an outcast.
Kevin,
On Scene in London, has a post in the previous thread.
Large hunks of the civilized world still don't get it, do they? Play by the rules with terrorists, lose by the rules. I feel sad for them. they are strong allies and always have been but I suspect half the Brits will simply blame it on being in Iraq and continue on with the Liberal BS. If anything, their immigration policies will further loosen and I would bet on that.
Kevin said...
I’m realizing that the power surge talk is just a way to keep people calm as they evacuate the tube system. I just talked to the lady who witnessed the bus explosion. She had been in the tube at Euston station when they started clearing the people out of the system. It took her 40 minutes to get off the platform and on to the surface streets – it was that crowded. No one panicked she said. She walked towards King’s Cross but was diverted towards Russell Square. She started chatting with a woman and they decided to jump on a 205 bus. The bus did not move at all for the five minutes she was on it. The bus behind her exploded, she saw it in the air. Her ears were ringing; she said people were amazingly calm but that she started to panic a bit and ran off the bus and started running towards our office.
She was saved by a completely random choice of which bus to jump on. I was meant to go to King's Cross and then to transfer to the Northern line. Since I missed the explosion by five minutes that means I was saved by some ladies lagging while checking out of my hotel this morning (and my taking th escenic route instead of the direct one).
Right now we are staying in the office. Supposedly Old Street Station which is near was also hit us but there are not that many emergency vehicles there so I doubt that it’s true. The waves of the blasts travel through the tunnels and it makes it hard to know where the actual blast was. There are certainly more than the usual sounds of sirens but it is hard from here to get a real picture of what is going on. I think I will walk over to Liverpool Street Station to check it out.
They are currently going through the office to see if anyone is missing.
3:52 AM
Well,
We can all become dhimmi and go to the mosque five times a day and then things would calm down.
But then of course the left may get violent when told they have to pray. Ha!
Ironically, the terrorists are their own worst enemies and liberal's worst friends. Imagine trying to portray these nutcases as simple, misunderstood 'freedom fighters'. They are hardly simple. The London attack required preparation, motivation, organization and logistics. The attackers had to evade the British police informers, wiretaps, surveillance. And of course, as they themselves will make plain in their communique, they demand nothing less than conversion to their creed and submission to their word. The liberals will try to spin this, but there are limits to the powers of fiction.
Goesh,
I doubt it. My sense is that if this was the work of AQ and their sympathizers, which seems reasonable, it was a foolish waste of resources. There will be some noise from the usual chorus on the extreme left, but I have serious doubts that those voices will influence UK policy.
We've just passed through a new threshold.
Maybe Chirac because of the Olympics?
AQ just issued a "we did it" claim, says Fox.
My suggestion: 1000 bombers from all non Islamic countries would fly over Mecca. Drop leaflets saying 'next time...'.
I believe we passed the stage of sending messages on September 11. The time has come to do whatever is necessary to win against Islamic terrorism. Because of the tremendous power of the United States "whatever is necessary" may in fact be limited to overthrowing dysfunctional governments and hunting down terrorist cells. That is the humane opportunity before us. But should the enemy's power increase then all the stops will progressively be pulled out because we are in a fight to death and in those circumstances "whatever is necessary" will mean exactly that. If we ever have to send bombers over Mecca it should only be to use them. We are not at that stage yet but we will eventually get to the greater tragedy if we cannot successfully prosecute the fight against terrorism by limited means. What is scary about London is not that it happened, but that there is nothing to prevent it from being serially repeated everywhere except the defeat of the enemy.
re, update:
Points out I think why much deadlier attacks are so much easier to carry out in Iraq where explosives are readily at hand.
In London, it was well organized, but no multiple mortar rounds to be had.
Thanks for this blog. I also came to the conclusion that the terrorists are not increasing in strength, if this is the best they can do.
Of course, every life taken is a tragedy, but if the movement was greater, so would the casualties be.
I just walked down to Liverpool Street Station and talked to one of the police officers on duty there. He told me that the bomb went off in the crowed tube car between Liverpool St. and Aldgate. I work with blast protection professionally but it really is not hard to image the effects of even a relatively small blast in the confined space of the underground tunnels. The roof of the tunnel would have collapsed; I don’t want to speculate but surely hundreds would have died in those cars. I felt the blast that occurred somewhere near King’s Cross; there have to be mass casualties.
The streets are full of sirens and emergency vehicles roaring by. No busses are running. People are all on their mobiles trying to figure out what is going on.
THE SPANISH CONNECTION [John Hood]Just to further answer Cliff May's question, some of the commenters at DailyKos are already making the Madrid/Iraq/blowback comparison to today’s London attacks. But in fairness, others are (correctly, I think) arguing that the Brits are likely to react differently than the Spaniards did. Posted at 08:11 AM
Kevin,
You're the man on the spot and know the most. If a bomb went off on a train tamped in by the tunnel it would be certainly bad. But we're not hearing anything about that on the airwaves. Any hard evidence it happened that way?
Kevin, thanks for the great posts in the previous thread. Take care of yourself.
Pretty early days yet. 7 stations and 2 buses? Surely more than 2 dead. Hope not. But like Wretchard and Saurkraut said, if it was only tens of pounds and this is all they can muster then man, what a waste of suiciders. Very good indication of the state AQ is in.
Where's Pete at?
Kos,
Just in from magazine friend in London:
"suicide bomber just shot dead in canary wharf. - like our wall street"
How do they shoot people in London?
Of course the commenters on the Daily Kos would think that way. But it's going to get harder and harder to peddle that line. One of the problems is that the liberal policy line has set up the potential for a discontinuity, an irrational snap. By portraying the Islamists as quaint and misunderstood 'freedom fighters' they are simply setting the stage for mass disillusionment. And you don't want to see mass disillusionment.
We have to focus on the problem, almost like we didn't feel any pain. The head of this thing is in places like Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Pakistan, Syria and Iran. And the support for this thing is wherever the Left flies its flag. That is the nature of the problem. The solution must certainly be to destroy or diminish this political ecosystem.
The good thing about fighting Islamic terrorism is that it creates its own feedback loop. Anytime you are misguided enough to think they are normal human beings they will disabuse you. And the trajectory is corrected. The important thing is to stay the course, in Iraq and elsewhere, until this movement is utterly, utterly destroyed.
From the BBC
Loyita Worley, who works for a City law firm, said she was on the underground train when an explosion took place in the next carriage, while it was in a tunnel.
The 49-year-old said: "All the lights went out and the train came to an immediate halt. There was smoke everywhere and everyone was coughing and choking, but remained calm. We couldn't open the doors."
Once the doors were opened they were taken along to Liverpool Street station.
She said the carriage where an explosion happened was "black on the inside" and she saw people who appeared to have their clothes blown off.
She saw bodies lying inside the carriage.
It doesn't sound at all like the tunnel collapsed but the train would have been packed.
This is just one incident
FLASHBACK TO SEPTEMBER 11 [John Podhoretz]
Tony Blair's shellshocked appearance during his initial statement earlier this morning offers the best rebuttal yet to the sleazy Michael Moore-style attack on President Bush's behavior on the morning of September 11.
It would have been a disaster for Bush to have spoken as the choked-up Blair was.
This is intended as no criticism of Blair, who was clearly under a far different sort of burden at the G-8 than Bush was sitting in a classroom in Sarasota.
But Blair is not the leader of the free world, Bush is, and had he seemed unable to collect himself -- as would surely have been the case in that first hour after Andy Card told him about the attack on America --
I can't imagine what the day would have been like. Not that the president's first words on 9.11, an hour after the attacks, were strong and focused. But they were more controlled.
It is well past time to take these people seriously.
The seriousness of the T operations can be judged on different levels. On one hand this London attack is a small scale attack, defined by casualties. But by the number of conspirators and the level of coordination of the attacks this is comparable to 9-11-01. Do not judge the results only by body count, that would be a major error.
I agree with the Cat, message time has passed.
WHAT IS TO BE DONE? [Cliff May]
CNN chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour just asked some expert whether there is anything that can be done to prevent such attacks.
Part of the answer – a part you won’t hear often – is this: When terrorists are captured they must be effectively interrogated in order to find out what they know about terrorist plots, cells and procedures.
No, that doesn’t mean torture. Yes, that does mean subjecting enemy combatants to “stress and duress,” using the most effective psychological methods to influence them to reveal what they know.
Found here: http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/newsdetail1.asp?storyID=76006
The Metropolitan Police at Scotland Yard say they believe the explosion on the bus was caused by a suicide bomber. If that is confirmed, it will be the first time a suicide bomber has struck in Britain. A statement says explosive material has been found at at least one location.
If, as Mr. Goss has said, we have an idea as to UBL's location and we have stayed out of the 'badlands' for political reasons, we have made an error. If we stayed out because of inadequate troop strength, well that would be even worse.
Time to step up the tempo, everywhere.
Kevin,
The news is dribbling out information about one of the tube attacks. "Eye-witnesses reported seeing bodies piled in the wreckage of damaged Tube trains." Official count now 8 dead; rumored casualties are 20,according to one report I saw on Google News. Christiane Amanpour is unofficially suggesting scores are dead in the subway system.
We'll know the full story soon enough.
Wretchard, your terminology--"political ecosystem"--is very much needed. The gradations of ordinary politics really, really, must be separated from this war.
9-11
7-7
The Left are even now meeting on how to spin this. One probable line is that 'Iraq caused this', but they won't use that just yet. First comes the unctuous "we are all Londoners" routine. By tomorrow we will hear the fatal modifier "but". But there aren't enough prayer rooms at the BBC, but there aren't enough benefits for Islamic refugees. But, but and but. Cynicism at its finest.
But don't get your blood pressure up. Although the Left builds its public relations dikes, the tide keeps on rising because reality can't be spun away. When you read commenters at the Daily Kos, you soon realize they are rational only in the sense that Captain Queeg in Caine Mutiny was rational. Smart within very narrow, polemical limits but oblivious to the rock descending on their heads.
But as I remarked earlier, what the Left by its irrationality does is create a series of discontinuities: a kind of jerky progress. After 3/11 one would have thought that the appeasers had triumphed. But a year later, we see the French, Germans and Spanish socialists in retreat over Europe. You'll get dipsy-doodles like that.
Where does this London thing go? If I had to bet, I'd say that Blair will use his EU presidency to create data standardization among European security services. The 'Terrorist Czar' initative that was supposed to result from Madrid but died a quiet death. That basically means creating a list most of whose names are bound to sound like Abdul or Mohammed. By then the Left will have found a way to pour oil on the waters.
But we can count on Osama or his successors to do something even more outrageous. After all, when you've crashed the Towers, murdered schoolchilden, kidnapped Arab ambassadors and sawed people's heads off on camera, it gets to be habit. Sooner or later there'll be a next one and then it's anybody's guess what the Europeans will do with that list. It's a tragedy waiting to happen.
Dan,
Pakistan always bothers me the most in that list Wretch had.
I like your scenario, but what do you see happening to the Nukes?
---
...and your attitude is what's causing them to do this, so don't bother about finding the website.
This is London's 9-11. Will they fold like Madrid? Or will they not only massively retaliate but escalate like Washington? The next few days will be interesting.
I thought there were piracy laws still on the books, that by any and all means necessary the scourge is to be eradicated?
The 75th Rangers, that is what happens to their Nukes.
Boy, I thought I was random.
...and then along comes Jack!
Sam,
I think the first place they should escalate is at home.
Them mosques have been spouting this s... for years.
Same here,
Ask Steve Emerson. ?
Or watch the video made YEARS ago.
Wonder if the little turd G8 protesters will wear their Hamas scarves again today?
jack.random,
The phrase "War on Terror" will some day be put in the same category as "Arsenal of Democracy". That was all Roosevelt could get away with until he could call as spade a spade.
I believe we are watching the slow collapse of all the nice little barriers of political correctness which have grown around the medieval ideology called Wahabism. The Left is dying from the dagger of Islam plunged repeatedly into its back. As they are glad to recieve the wounds, well let them.
I think people like Fouad Ajami understand quite clearly that unless Islam reforms it will quite literally blow itself up, one way or the other. It's a race against time really. That we are in a war is indisputable. The only question remaining is whether the casualties will be numbered in the thousands or the billions. The Left, if left alone, will guarantee it is in the billions. But they are dying from their own stupidity, so there's hope yet.
hell doug, just ask van Gough.
Oh, they killed him, already.
We, here in the US, present a much softer target than London. It is just a that these Islamists are mostly incompetent. Lucky for US.
If they were any good at War we would be in deep caca.
Ok, Doug. Let's work the numbers, find the pattern, connect the dots:
9-11
3-11
7-7
Skye News (Fox on London) now reporting 45 dead, up to 1000 injuries, 150 serious, still people trapped underground.
"The Left is dying from the dagger of Islam plunged repeatedly into its back. As they are glad to receive the wounds, well let them.
"
I know I'm sick, but I laugh uncontrolably at that picture!
Papa,
What do you think about the terrorism options idea?
There was some strange stuff in the Australian mkts, too, just prior to 911.
Looks like the homicide bomb(s) in the bus (s) were coordinated to explode after the buses filled with evacuees from the subways. People still trapped below ground, "emergency amputations" being done amongst the subway trains below ground.
Jack,
We start with the National Presbytery...
rune, welcome to the light side.
"were coordinated to explode "
Isn't that special?
Buddy,
Source?
And if anyone hears what type of explosive it was, please post...
I just won the triple crown at 6:31 AM
jack.random,
Those are all good questions susceptible to rational answers. The simplest is to throw every Islamist who is prepared to use force to spread his religion into the deepest and darkest hole on the planet. Everything else is activism. But since the Guantanamo=Nazi folks have made this course harder to take things will drag on until we reach the political stage where folks won't care about rational answers. And war, when it truly and finally comes in its naked form, is nothing but a situation in which rational answers don't matter. It's been called a form of madness, but that's not quite true. It was the getting there that was the madness.
Right now, we still have the option of excising this cancer and beating it with a little chemotherapy. But when it gets bad we're going to have to amputate, blast it with cobalt and do whatever else it takes to clear out the system. With luck, something of civilization will survive the treatment. The European Left want to hold hands and declare Peace. See? The madness has started already.
James, FoxNews broadcasting interviews with witnesses on the street. Someone mentioned being turned away from the tubes in the first minutes, and climbing on a bus. Then, behind her, the next bus exploded.
"- I used to be a leftist myself, but these days they simply disgust me."
Lots of us here were, just depends on how long ago.
Now we're NeoBelmonteers,
except for ex-dem,
an agent hiding behind that Nick.
julius, you're right. On average it looks like it takes AQ 2 years to pull off some kind of attack. If they could they would test with something small then hit with something bigger right away. But they can't. This is it. For now.
Not only did Sky News give us that news, but our Kevin delivered a similar report earlier today.
nittypig,
"ROLF TOPHOVEN, DIRECTOR OF THE TERRORISM RESEARCH INSITUTE IN ESSEN, GERMANY
"London is a centre of Islamist propaganda in Europe. There have been permanent, massive threats since the involvement of the British government in the Iraq war.
Let's not forget that the main enemy for the Islamists is the United States, and that's not just since Sept. 11, 2001 and Tony Blair is the closest ally of George W. Bush, so from that point of view it makes sense to hit the closest ally of the USA.
This is another parallel with Madrid."
(from the NR Corner)
Mirada rights and fair trials are accorded to mere criminals. I'm all for that.
These Barbarians are beyond criminal. This is not extortion or spousal abuse. This is beyond drug trafficing or drive by shootings.
WE ARE AT WAR.
You can believe it or not
The Opfor believe it
Papa,
Now I forgot his name,
but he got kicked out of CIA, or Pentagon for it.
He was going to offer terrorism options and then track those trends and orders.
Sounds a little too obvious now, but was good enough then for the MSM to get him fired.
An old, and VERY innovative thinker.
(had lots of previous credits)
In the morning I think I can have google desktop find a good article on him.
Looks like good compendium of mrkets oddities around 911.
AQ/Iraq has announced the killing of the Ambassador-to-be from Egypt (kidnapped a few days ago).
No doubt there are those who will say that Britain brought forth the attacks on itself by teh troops it sent to Iraq and Afgahnistan. But in WWII the British suffered far worse "terror" attacks than this and responded by sending bombers over Germany. The question is: Asuuming the legendary stiff upper lip and spine of English steel is still there, what today would be the equivalent of dispatching Lancasters to destroy Hamburg and Mosquitos to interrrupt a speech by Goring?
I'd imagine the Brit units in Basra are already relecting a changed attitude.
mog,
Glad to hear your thought process is not on AQ Track! ;)
"ALSO IN LONDON THIS WEEK [K. J. Lopez]
AP:
Radical Islamic cleric Abu Hamza al-Mazri has appeared in a London court on charges including encouraging the murder of Jews and other non-Muslims.
Tuesday had been set for the start of Abu Hamza's trial, but the first session was taken up with legal arguments, which are expected to continue all week. Court orders forbid any reporting of the arguments, which take place without a jury present."
They care about the G8
All the MSM is there, all the Leaders are there.
The meessage is that even at the core of the most secure city in the Anglosphere, while the Leaders of the Western World are in country, no one is safe.
Terrorism is not about elections, it is about fear.
Wesley Clark, Ramsey Clark, Richard Clarke.
hmmmm.
A wimp and two nutjobs.
rat, i agree--power is as power does. They did it to show they could do it, even despite the gathered security services of the top industrial nations of the world.
Surely London has to retaliate, don't they? I would be dumbfounded if they didn't. After this?
doug -- as a belmonteer with both family members and friends still living in my home town of london, your bizarre insult is not well taken today.
Dream headline:
"G8 leaders, in response to 7-7 Blitz, agree to cooperatively expropriate control over OPEC for a period of 5 years beginning immediately. Purpose, to kill Al Qaida."
If they had capacity or capability they would.
Here in AZ a lightning fire has scorched hundreds of thousands of acres. Took 1400 firefighters to weeks to contain it.
The DC snipers were idiots and look how long they remained at large.
Anyone with a small chicken ranch has all the raw material needed to match OK City.
Lucky US that these guys are not very good.
As W stated in the beginning the London op may have needed 40 plus operatives to accomplish.
If I had four teams of 10 operators and wanted to terrorize US you would have at least 90-120 days of sheer pandamonium.
No suicide bombing required.
''Rejoice, Islamic nation. Rejoice, Arab world. The time has come for vengeance against the Zionist crusader government of Britain in response to the massacres Britain committed in Iraq and Afghanistan,'' said the statement, translated by The Associated Press in Cairo.
The AP was unable to access the Web site where it was posted, which was closed quickly after the reports.
. Responsibility Claim.
The whole basic question of how these groups or "suspects" or "perpetrators" should be treated seems to stem from the fact that we are facing something that seems outside of our judicial considerations. And we seem to have two preferred responses: pushing them into the legal system with its existing categories or going outside of it completely.
Perhaps we need to come up with new laws. We had the RICO legislation to develop means of dealing with organized crime. The realization that this is a war could be helpful, unfortunately too many people regard a "real war" as being something that can only be waged by nation states. I'm not quite sure what the solution is, but it seems attempting to fit 19th and early 20th century legal thought onto a distinct 21st century phenomenon will leave us rather paralyzed.
Well, Galloway has issued his ritualistic "I told you so" relative to the London attacks and the British involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Maybe that is how for the British to respond.
Take what Galloway says and do the exact opposite.
Sorry ex dem, I was kidding, but once again failed miserably.
Hope all is well in London.
And where IS Peter?
rat is right. two snipers shut down quite a bit of the normal activity in several eastern seaboard states not long ago. Equipment, a rifle and a car with a shoot-hole cut into the trunk-lid.
ex-dem, hope all is okay with yours.
Mog--yes, but PM Blair is G8 host--and London is infiltrated already. Coalesce of the do-able and the symbol.
But, doom-and-gloom is almost a local aside, Wretchard is right, the movement's successes are local, and each one trades strategic losses for every local victory. And--as Israel attests--each murder desensitizes the next murder, and the horror/submission strategy wears itself out in its own execution.
I'm starting to get on the same page as ADE. But I think we can do it without destroying Mecca. But by all means do it in a big way. We took care of Japan without destroying Tokyo.
Take. The. Gloves. Off.
ADE,
You are not a leftist, carry on.
...but no beer, rock and roll and etc.
There's a technological alternative to taking oil away from OPEC (which is only going to work for so long anyway); we can eliminate the need for oil. It would solve other problems too.
Two posts on the subject:
Zinc: Miracle metal?
Going negative
Oil infrastructure is quite vulnerable, as Iraq has proven. If we tried to take over another major producer, production cuts from attacks would cause world-wide economic chaos. What we should be doing (that we are not) is taking an economic dagger and aiming it at OPEC's throat (and Putin's re-nationalized economy too): not take oil away from them, but make it irrelevant. I believe it's possible.
Engineer poet:
'Rat can take care of the oilfields while we lure the masses out of their SUVs.
(He buys us time)
sam
LeMay burned tokyo to the ground
Hundreds of thousands killed
Mayor of London made a mighty solid off-the-cuff speech. He was in Singapore, I believe, speaking to the press at the airport on his way home. He was harsh on the perps. Isn't he normally a far-lefty?
Any explosives experts out there? Check out this photograph. The explosion clearly did a hell of a lot of damage to the bus's structure, but the wreckage is remarkably char-free. It looks like the type of explosive used created a very high pressure blast but little flame. Anyone with some expertise in this area?
Something needs to shake the general Muslim community out of its lethargy; I wonder if, in the long run, riots and mosque burnings would be the best thing to happen?
Global markets so far, down, but not much--and recovering. Less and less effect, each incident. They're gonna need to grab a big OPEC government, to do the global extort that seemed so possible a few years ago.
I don't think the 'rat needs to be there. Once OPEC gets the idea that their black stuff is going to be of much less value in the near future, they will do the obvious: try to unload it as fast as they can, while they still can. This will drive prices (and OPEC/Saudi income) down. It will also put an end to hoarding and speculation.
What we need is an effort that is viewed as serious. Unfortunately, Bush (the oil man) is constitutionally unable to stand for a USA which is repudiating petroleum.
Ok, rat. I guess I was talking nukes.
ADE,
Ever tried Sierra Nevada?
USA's best, IMO.
...if you like hops.
Was fun when we got Blitzed Here.
Sorry, the link I provided was faulty. Try this one.
The PC consequences of 21st century nukes makes their use problematic.
Don't really need them though.
Selective violence is really preferable to nuclear genocide.
LeMay showed US the way
Looks like a thumper, but not to large a one.
Took the roof of the bus, but did not flatten it. Seats are still in upright and locked position. The suspension and tires still upright.
Windshield still intact.
Not much of a device.
Dan,
You asked about our policies that offend. Google "fatwa, Osama" and read both the 96 and 98 fatwas.
As W is pounding home in this thread, there is no negotiating with this enemy. Unless you count the kind of "negotiating" Harry Truman did with the Japanese. Total defeat is the only answer, but unfortunately that defeat is not of a military nature only. The Islamic societies that foster these suicidal dead-enders must be convinced that they have to root out the cancer, or die from the side-effects.
ADE.
Most sucessful true microbrew in US.
Ales: Red Tail Stout my fav.
Northern Calif. (Chico)
I Grew up in CA.
Flames are a Hollywood effect, the result of the special effects guys adding things like gasoline and rubber cement to the explosion; its not a not a normal explosive situation. The primary effect of any explosive is blast. After that comes debris carried by the blast and after that blast effects such as broken windows, which create a very localized but potentially lethal debris hazard. At certain distances you can be perfectly fine outside when a blast goes off but be killed if you were standing inside in front of a window. When we analyze the effects of explosives where I work, fire does not enter into it. Firebrands can become important in cases such as rocket failures, where you may have lots of fuel, but not when you have just an explosive.
bomb was in the rear of the bus, upper level. looks like it ripped the roof off like a sardine can, rear to front.
NR Corner:
"MARIN STEVANSKI, EYEWITNESS: "I just experienced a huge explosion on the underground. Glass flew into my back...As I went past a carriage I could see bodies on the ground."
"
Assuming vechicles around the bus have not moved since strike, there is another indication of a small blast. Notice that the windows of those vechiles are intact.
Sorry, it was just Red Tail Ale.
(named after numerous neat predators in CA.)
Still worth fighting for.
Must have been the MSM "beer" fogging the memory.
...plus it's 5:30am
OUT!
in agreement with rwe, never much flame in a blast.
in oil well fire fighting the blast extingushes the fire.
On the Iraqi challenge of car bombings and our military reaction to it.
In London it is the Bobbies that are on scene, not the Army. The SAS may take down the perps if pinpointed, but they are not the ones investigating
Skill sets required are not military but police.
I spent a good part of last summer doing a detailed "what if" exercise that started with "If a terrorist truck bomb went off at this spot, what would happen, which buildings are most vulnerable, how many casualties would there be?"
Everybody knows Islam is hateful
Everybody knows it's going to heck
Everybody knows you should be grateful
Each day they don't slit your neck
Everybody knows you spurned the offers
Osama's still killin' kaffirs
They're all his foes
And everybody knows.
"Doug said...
WHAT IS TO BE DONE? [Cliff May]
CNN chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour just asked some expert whether there is anything that can be done to prevent such attacks.
Part of the answer – a part you won’t hear often – is this: When terrorists are captured they must be effectively interrogated in order to find out what they know about terrorist plots, cells and procedures.
No, that doesn’t mean torture. Yes, that does mean subjecting enemy combatants to “stress and duress,” using the most effective psychological methods to influence them to reveal what they know."
Doug, I actually just made a post about this.
If you're interested, http://yankeestation.blogspot.com/2005_06_01_yankeestation_archive.html#112017015506267135
Wretchard is absolutely correct. The time for nuanced and politically correct value judgments is long gone.
The Brits historically have been quite ruthless in defense of their freedoms.
I'll believe it when I see Galloway and Red Ken riding a rail in Trafalgar Square.
goesh said it right at the top! The majority of Brits will blame themselves. Such nice, lovely people, and so naive.
If they would only waken they have the tools to strike a true blow, but within 60 days their 'bleeb' and msm will be calling the suicide bombers "insurgents".
Nobody is blinder than those who do not wish to see.
From the damage I see, it looks like the explosives were slow-speed like propane or natural gas.
Compare the Isreali buses to the London double-decker. The Isreali buses are bent and broken - debris and body parts are tossed for hundreds of yards. The double-decker is opened up , but not bent up - and the debris is just around the bus.
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red river
yeah a thumper, my guess, amonium nitrate, about 4 or 5 pounds, not more than 10.
easier to carry than a gas canister
20-25 pounds brissant explosive device, shattering effect. C-4/Semtex or similar. A TNT or Fuel/Fertilizer mix is more a powerful, ie. ,lift and push type explosive.
That help?
Senator Collins (R ME) says there was no intel or prior knowledge of this terror op.
Four years after 9-11 and we still cannot get operatives into their infrastructure. Johnny Taliban Walker made it through their training and reportedly met with UBL. Where is Blackford Oakes and Mr. Bond when we need them.
How inept we seem to have become.
What else should we expect, the CIA cannot even locate the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade. So sad
If one in ten Muslims supports AQ, then 90% don't support AQ. We should not gratuitously include that 90% in our crosshairs. That's precisely what the 10% wants us to do. The Iraqi armed services, for example, are Muslim allies upon whom we plan to depend quite heavily far into the future. Let's please not assume their religion is the enemy--how perfectly that would suit AQ! This is a tough thing, to make a distinction which seems wobbly. But it's the truth, isn't it? Don't we have Muslim allies?
Also, this is good.
CM,
Just look at the liberal response to the Palestinian issue over the years if you doubt the truth of that statement.
right you are buddy
we do not need too commit nuclear genocide. Selective and precise violence against individuals. We used to be good at that, we could be again.
CM: Lets just talk about the Democratic party. Howard Dean and John Kerry. Not exactly war mongers are they? If the Democratic party doesn't do something to reverse the impression that they are wimps and cowards unwilling acknowledge the threat or defend the nation then Democratic party will be no more - we will become a one party nation. I'm a republican, but I still believe in the need for a viable opposition. Michael Moore isn't viable. Zel Miller on the other hand . . .
so now when the brits meet with hamas will it still be "welcome" to democracy? and still tell israel to not continue the cycle of violence?
Well said, Dan. One wonders just how much true encouragement is given to Bin Laden and his ilk by the Galloways, Ward Churchills as well as the "loyal opposition" in the West, those that express grave concern over possible "real grievances", and the spoiled brat G-8 protestor types. Or for that matter, by the supposed great concern over our own military casualties. Do the Bun Ladens truly believe that these buffoons, clowns, nutcases and oppotunists truly represent a genuine weakness in our society that proves that one good push can knock us over and open the gates for the march of militant Islam? Or would they be committing such acts anyway if they viewed us as an indomitable people with vast powers that can send men to the Moon and probes to distant planets on a whim - and thus only could derive from such terrorist acts the same kind of pleasure that young hoodlums do by knocking over mailboxes?
I really do not know.
But I do know that even if the Galloways, Chruchills, Kerrys and Teddies do in fact represent fully half of our population's views, the other half is ready, willing, and able to wield power that makes the worst we could do in WWII look small and overly timid. But do the terrorists not know this - or do not care?
cm wrote
"...Palestinians do have a legitimate historical grievance (i.e., the UN came in and said "your country is now their country") ..."
Ah so wrong charlie
Transjordon was the country, there was no Palistine. The transition created Israel and Jordon, the majority of the Jordanian population are ethnic Palistinians, they got their country. If the UN and the Arab countries had not locked the Pallistinians into the lifelong squalor of "Refugee" camps the challenge would have been solved long ago. Just look at Europe where millions of ethnic Germans were relocated after WWII. No refugee camps there, and no long term problems resulting from the forced migrations.
CM said...
but the Palestinians do have a legitimate historical grievance (i.e., the UN came in and said "your country is now their country") that has no analogy in our situation
nonsense, what counrty did they have??????
In fact what was the arab population of all west bank in 1948......
ever hear of Jordan? who created it... BRITIAN
ever hear of the 2 state solution the arabs rejected?
ever KNOW that gaza was not occupied (nor the west bank) until 1967... the arabs had PLENTY of time to create a state if they chose to.... but they did not..
dont rewrite history... the arabs supported HILTER and yet they never surrendered and never were taught they were wrong... and yet they have 22 nations (pa included) and 50% of the world oil and MILLIONS of square miles....
how dare those dirty jews wanting to live in hebron..
oh that's right jesus wasnt a jew, he was a freakin palestinian...
no such thing as the temple in jerusalem....
CM,
There has been no REAL conservative response to the Palestinians, by either U.S. conservatives or Israeli conservatives, because of the political correctness imposed by the left, including the U.N. This struggle we are in now is extremely similar to the Palesitinian issue; the opposite side has no interest in a long-term solution that does not go along their lines. In the case of the Palestinians, they are only interested in the destruction of Israel. In our sruggle, they are only interested in the destruction of the west. And our hands are tied by the liberals.
cm,
if the israelis were so bad where are all the dead palestinians? i mean not the puny 3k, but the millions israel COULD kill in 10 seconds.......
If abbas had a nuke... would you sleep better at night?
CM, most reasonable people would not claim that leading elected Democrats actually sympathize with the true aims of the terrorists, but many of us are persuaded that their attention is so firmly fixed on regaining power that they are not paying sufficient attention to the seriousness of the situation re the terrorists. My concern is that they will tear down their Republican opponents, regain power triumphantly, and then get steamrolled from behind along with the rest of us by militant Islam. Their public statements largely bear out this analysis. Think of the movie scenes where the hero is trapped by the villain and his gun, then says "look behind you!" as reinforcements arrive, and now reassign the roles just a little bit...
Howard Dean has said that UBL should be considered "innocent until proven guilty". He withdrew the statement after the resulting uproar, but it was and is his position. He was not concerned about legalities, because, later he said Tom Delay should go back to Texas and serve his time. Delay has never even been indicted, let alone convicted. UBL has confessed via video, Delay proclaims his innocence.
Dean is a defeatist. He represents the National Democratic Party.
So sad, for the Dems, but sadder for US
Why was London attacked?
Straight from the Horses's Mouth, because of military involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan.
The "war on terror" caused this. When will those of you living on Mars come to your senses and realize that terrorists don't strike at random and for absolutely no reason. They're responding to the violence of American and in this case British foreign policy which inflicts this kind of damage on their home countries daily.
You don't fight cancer by building more cemeteries, just like you don't fight reactionary terrorists by invading more countries and pissing more people off.
The general racist tone of the above posters show how utterly simpliticly stupid the average person on here is. Al Qa'ida themselves said it was retaliation for Iraq and Afghanistan, and you people babble about it being some kind of exercise of muslim genetics.
Right, it was our fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq that caused 911, and the the ten thousand previous terror incidents going all the way back to Sirhan Sirhan shooting Bobby Kennedy--in California--over his backing of Israel.
So IOTM, you are now discounting AQs previous claims about rebuilding the Caliphate, and destroying the west? You do realize that is his ultimate goal, right? If your attitude wasn't so dangerous, the complete lack of thought that goes into it would be laughable.
Why did the German Airforce bomb London in WWII? The Brits stood by their Polish and French Allies.
Yep WWII was Churchills fault. If Chamberlin had just gotten another chance, then Hitler would have been happy and London safe.
Sure thing!
That's why you have to look for terrorists instead of bombs.
CM,
The reason a lot of us use the word "liberal" so liberally and derisively is because we know what they do when they are running the government. A careful reading of "The 9/11 Commission Report" spells it out, though in aggravatingly 'even-handed' tones. We had many chances to disrupt Al Qaeda in the 90's, we didn't do so, and 9/11 was the result. THAT'S what we think of liberals and Democratic leaders. Can you blame us?
Oughtta establish a pool on when the IAF corks that duly-elected Iranian Assassin.
just goes to show iotm ignorance of the US system
The Dems had 5 or 6 candidates running for Pres. They self selected JFKerry from that field.
The Libertarians, Socialists and Greens all fielded candidiates as well as Mr. Consumer Advocate, Ralph Nader. In previous elections we have had many candidates independent of the 2 major parties, Pat Buchannen, Ross Perot and George Wallace come quickly to mind, I'm sure there are others whom names escape me, for the moment.
iotm stated:
The "war on terror" caused this. When will those of you living on Mars come to your senses and realize that terrorists don't strike at random and for absolutely no reason. They're responding to the violence of American and in this case British foreign policy which inflicts this kind of damage on their home countries daily.
You are correct, I love'd Saddam, he murdered more arabs/moslems than any other human in the history of the world and dam america for stopping his murder of the moslems..... As for the Taliban, they were a fine group too!
>You don't fight cancer by building more cemeteries, just like you don't fight reactionary terrorists by invading more countries and pissing more people off.<
i like that: you dont fight cancer by building more cemeteries...
correct, better we should be giving pork rinds and "girls gone wild" tapes to the moslems... and dont forget grass.... lots of grass, porn and pork...
>The general racist tone of the above posters show how utterly simpliticly stupid the average person on here is.
well according to 3/4ths of the world moslems, i am desended from apes and pigs.... but here is my question, if abraham made prego 2 women , and one of them was my great great great great bubbie sarah, was she an ape or a pig? and does that mean my great great great great grand daddy (abraham) like to sleep with animals? and what does that make the father of islam?
porker for allah
abraham, I'm not sure, but the Prophet M was a pedophile and rapist.
praise be to pedophiles.
C4
such anger
you may need some type of medication. BC bud or some Valiums.
Jeez...I feel like the guy on the right, and C4/Iotm the guy on the left.
cedarford stated:
The only reason Jordan has a Palestinian population is: (1) The Jewish terror squads and Zioinist leaders ethnically cleansed over 200,000 to Jordan and the west Bank in 1948.
ok... and 600,000 jews were ethnically cleansed from the arab world...... so what?
jewish terror squads.... that's funny.... why not just shoot the arabs as the arabs did in hebron to the jews in 1921?
Nice try at revisionism, Cedarford. You are pretending to not know the fact that 95% of the Palestinians who were "displaced" in 1948 left of their own accord, after being told to leave and come back after the Jews had been driven into the sea. There were only a few thousand who were forced to leave, and that was due to their strategic location. Youalso are pretending to not know that Israel never ejected all Palestinians or Arabs from it's lands.
Now I see it, the jews and the chinese. Soon they will divy up the world. Leaving the Northeast US to the mercy of the Candadians. After Rummy's defense cuts we will not have a big enough sub fleet to stop them from crossing Lake Erie and capturing Buffalo.
The END is Near
And then we'll all move to Iran, where we can live free!
IOTM: It seems to me that I shouldn't worry about the sensibilities of people who claim purpose and salvation in my countrymen's indiscriminate slaughter.
To say that the presence of legitimate grievances, if that is what they are, justifies the Islamofascist position, which today's events are surely the simplest distillation, is madness at its most dangerous. Jews are usurous, kill them all. Tutsis collaborated, eliminate them. Americans are infidels, wipe them out. You can not appease these thoughts, nor can you hide from them. There is no parlay with an ideology of murder and enslavement. You must punish it, destroy it, and wipe it out of existence.
You do not know what you say. How do you countenance retreat when there is no place to go? How do you advise appeasement when the demand is your life? If there is one truism of history it is that people pay for their conceptual paradigms and worldly allegiances. It is arrogant for you to ask us to pay for yours. Myself, let the Muslims reap what they have sown. The survivors will understand, and forgive.
You might want to try going to my blog and reading the whole thing before trying to comment on it.
Nader had trouble getting on the ballot in most states. He was even sued by the Democrats to prevent it. He has no chance of winning without corporate backing.
9/11 was retaliation, according to Bin Laden, who was behind those attacks (I think many americans have forgotten that) for US military bases in Saudi Arabia, US sanctions and bombings in Iraq which killed over a million people, and ongoing support for Israel which kills hundreds of Palestinians a year. It still amazes that some people still can't put 2 and 2 together and figure these things out. You have to be incredibly dimwitted to be dumbstruck as to why someone would walk up to you and kick you in the shin after you've tortured and killed his family and blown up his house.
Be honest, you're not really that fucking stupid, no human can be, you're just playing along with Bush's crap because you're incapable of forming opinions on your own, or providing your own analysis, so you just repeat whatever you hear Bush or Blair or whatever authority figure you cower under.
Religion has nothing to do with it, it's just an excuse to act like a violent idiot and attract other morons to your cause. Religion discourages critical thinking. Thus the religious muslims will be too stupid to question the idea of terrorism, just as the religious christians in the US are too stupid to question the US government's violent and agressive foreign policy.
You might want to try going to my blog and reading the whole thing before trying to comment on it.
Nader had trouble getting on the ballot in most states. He was even sued by the Democrats to prevent it. He has no chance of winning without corporate backing.
9/11 was retaliation, according to Bin Laden, who was behind those attacks (I think many americans have forgotten that) for US military bases in Saudi Arabia, US sanctions and bombings in Iraq which killed over a million people, and ongoing support for Israel which kills hundreds of Palestinians a year. It still amazes that some people still can't put 2 and 2 together and figure these things out. You have to be incredibly dimwitted to be dumbstruck as to why someone would walk up to you and kick you in the shin after you've tortured and killed his family and blown up his house.
Be honest, you're not really that fucking stupid, no human can be, you're just playing along with Bush's crap because you're incapable of forming opinions on your own, or providing your own analysis, so you just repeat whatever you hear Bush or Blair or whatever authority figure you cower under.
Religion has nothing to do with it, it's just an excuse to act like a violent idiot and attract other morons to your cause. Religion discourages critical thinking. Thus the religious muslims will be too stupid to question the idea of terrorism, just as the religious christians in the US are too stupid to question the US government's violent and agressive foreign policy.
crap, he wants me to read his drivel, twice.
and ongoing support for Israel which kills hundreds of Palestinians a year....
well if it is going to brin gon the end of times, israel should get it's money's worth.... kill at least the amount that saddam killed..... couple of million at least....
-----You have to be incredibly dimwitted to be dumbstruck as to why someone would walk up to you and kick you in the shin after you've tortured and killed his family and blown up his house.---
suicide bombers are dead, so after they murder innocents, israel bulldozed thier houses, btw, when do we get to "torture" and "kill" his family? last count there are more palestinians today then when this started, man they breed well.......
an interesting post from freerepublic. its a review of a book by someone who has been in saudi arabia for the last couple years. its their report on events there since 911. the interesting thing is that the writer reports that the crazies there are not the people but rather the wahabi clerics and the saudi rulers who jointly rule the country.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1438264/posts
"The liberals will try to spin this, but there are limits to the powers of fiction."
When I pay DailKos the occasional visit and see what they believe, I am convinced that there is no limit to the power of fiction.
I saw a program about video surveillance about a year ago, and I remember that London was given as having the most cameras in the downtown public areas of any city in the world. Hopefully they will help to identify the perps.
I also grow tired of these gotcha games with Israel. The birth of the US was not pure and white, either, yet someone explain to me how that affects my decision to defend my family from lunatics. Israel exists now, as a democracy. It is not perfect, but it does not deserve the rampant slaughter of its children as they wait outside a night club.
Before Israel, the Levant was barbaric and backwards. Those lucky enough to live within her boundaries now (including Arabs) are immensely better off than they were before her existence, as are the Indians and Blacks that live in the US. Surely that counts for something. Their ancestors were abused by our polity, but their forced assimulation has created generations of prosperity and comfort. My ancestors died for my freedom, theirs were enslaved. Yet here we are.
One concludes that the recitation of historical grievances hides a deeper animosity and -- bigotry.
Foxenburg is right Wretchard.
The 3/11 attacks were much more sophisticated as they used much stronger explosives, went off at a higher point of the rush hour, and used more points of attacks - and they were strategically more effective.
If this were an escalation, then the subway attacks would have been LAST after several attacks on the following attacks in order:
1. 911 dispatch center
2. Telephony NOCs
3. Hospitals
4. Police HQ
5. TV stations
6. Jamming of emergency frequencies
7. Power and Water Grid
8. Mass Transport ( include radiological materials )
Best of luck with all that original thinking, iotm. When you finish Duranty, you can break out into the 1940s.
Meanwhile, back on Earth, the financial markets have come through like champs. London brokerages are saying that unless there's another wave, business will not suffer any loss of confidence. USA mkts actually are closing with some gains. The terror-effect is wearing off--becoming less terrifying. The jihad is going to get some extra ass-kicking for precious little gain, besides a few more destroyed families.
Just received this from a friend of a friend in the islands:
"Well it looks like the exporting of terrorists has begun!!!"
Her last missive was about how Muslim women just love wearing their burkhas and veils.
Ahhhh, and CM wonders what we have against liberals.
IOTM can make his claims because he does not see himself as a participant in this war. His point of view is one of observer, dissenter, conscientious objector. Ironically, his champion will not care. If the war comes home, the luxury and smugness of his divestment will evaporate.
Perhaps then he will call us brother.
As long as he does not call me late to dinner
Perhaps then he will call his mother.
doubt if she'd take the call
Another 40 or so Westerners dead. It is horrible, what occurred today in London, yet not surprising. Add today's tally to the 200 in Madrid, the 3000 from NYC 9-11, and you're still about 2,996,760 short of how many people the USA killed in Vietnam. Accurate statistics of how many people were killed by the British during their less-than-gentle occupation of India and Persia are not available, otherwise I'd quote them here to add some perspective on these jingoistic sentiments of yours.
How can you be intelligent enough to collect the detailed information in this blog yet foolish enough to not understand that the years of colonial repression foisted upon the third world by the USA and Great Britain make for some very, very hostile people? Economic war upon the rest of the world reaps violent results.
Death by violent means is morally wrong in any situation--whether it's performed by a brainwashed Muslim, Communist, or Christian. Until people realize what the sins of the USA really are, they will continue to be mystified by these attacks against Western Civilization....is this truly the best of all possible worlds, the capitalist version? I think not, and so do billions of other people on this planet.
Peter U.K. - My most sincere condolences on your losses.
Could you tell us what are the laws and controls regarding explosives and related materials in Great Britain? Does it seem likely that these bombs were homemade out of fertilizer and such or were smuggled in or were actual explosives diverted from legitimate uses?
iotm,
You're all world view--no world.
Osama and his buddies are pschopathic murderers who want you and your family dead. No more psychoanlysis needed. No blame to be apportioned. He'll "retaliate" until your head is on a pike and your daughter has been honor raped.
He and his buddies have got to be killed. Wring your hands later. Help us kill the bastards now.
I would suggest the British authorities immediately conduct a simple investigation into how many Islamic people use those trains to travel to work in the time frame of the attacks against how many Islamic people "stayed home." The ones that "stayed home" would probably have advanced warning from the network of terrorists.
Sure, a few Islamic people may have been killed - but I would suspect a lot simply did not ride said targeted trains and buses.
"Anyway IOTM,you're a pathetic being. I feel more pity than anger for you. "
---
Funny, Medved just had a caller like that.
Do they multiply?
...or have they regressed all the way back to addition?
This guy was doing the old:
"You don't blame all of Christianity or Judaism when somebody blows something up and they happen to be a Christian."
Routine.
Mr Giuliani, who led the Big Apple through the devastating attacks, said he was only yards away from the first explosion this morning, while on a visit to London.
"In a strange way a lot of our response to September 11 was modelling ourselves as much as we could on the people of London during the Second World War and the incredible way they withstood the attacks during the battle of Britain."
"...the years of colonial repression foisted upon the third world by the USA and Great Britain make for some very, very hostile people? Economic war upon the rest of the world reaps violent results."
---
Cool!
Rove sent the Democrat "leaders" here for a demo.
Alyosha, nice satire. You did a good job replicating the thought patterns of a perfectly-indoctrinated 14 yr old Hitler Youth, or Young Communist leaguer, or whatever else is buried back there in the dustbin of history, discarded without ever having had a glimmer of understanding of human-nature, right-and-wrong, or the actual facts of history.
:-)
:-)(no offense ex-dem):-)
:-)
Wretcherd
Some time ago you ran a post dealing with the optimal size of groups trying to function clandestinely. Forget the name of the theory, but it was to the effect that about 80 people was optimal while beyond about 150, the groups would fall apart due to the appearance of factions. And that the only way to get beyond this inherent size limit was for a group to move its organizational structure above ground, something that could only happen with nation/state support.
Could it be that what we're seeing here is one faction taking action as a way of saying to other Islamist terrorist cells, "were here and we are still serious".
Could it be that what we are seeing is in some way evidence of the breaking up of AQ into a host of small factions that has resulted from AQ being denined the state sponsorship it once enjoyed?
Well when those pagan NAZI Socialists killed millions of Jews, I did not blame all pagans. When the Indochinese Communists killed over 5 million in Indochina I did not blame all Indochinese.
When that athiest Stalin had over 20 million killed in the Ukraine and the Urals I did not blame all athiests.
And today I do not blame all Muslims, why I really think M. Alli (Cassius Clay) is quite a guy.
It is just that when Slavery and Genocide are discussed, today, that discussion centers on the Islamic world.
To the Vietnamese commentator, if we were so horrible there, why did their President show up wanting our help, just last month. Who in their right mind would ask US to help them? If as you say is true and we killed all those innocents, the blood would be on his hands now, oh the shame.
There you have it--Alyosha, mouthpiece for billions of people around the world. Is that an elected position, or self appointed?
Oh, yeah, alosha, you hit it! They blew up London because of all the people we killed in Vietnam. No doubt the Islamofacists cry themselves to sleep every night over all those Vietnamese deaths. And the Vietnamese - the side we were shooting at in fact - are still so angry over it that they sent their top man to the White house the other week to seek closer relations with us. Probably just an attempt to smuggle a bomb. And of course, the followers of Islam never, ever hurt each other; they only beat up on infidels. Thet little dust up between Iran and Iraq - in which the Iraqis were found to be still keeping Iranian dead boxed up in warehouses just so they could gloat - Well, that is hardly worth mentioning, along with the Egyptian Mig attacks on Saudi villages in the 60's, the traditionally warm relations between Egypt and Libya, and that little family disagreement between Iraq and Kuwait in 1990. Yep, you got it all down pat.
Alyosha says that billions don't like capitalism.
Let's take a vote. All those who like capitalism buy a cell phone.
All opposed, bugger a goat in a cave in Pakistan.
Haven't read all the posts:
WHO PUT OUT THE TROLL BAIT?
Alyosha: "Death by violent means is morally wrong in any situation--whether it's performed by a brainwashed Muslim, Communist, or Christian."
How quaint. Your comment is wrong. Simply and utterly wrong. Was that supposed to be pithy?
Protecting your family with a gun is not morally wrong. Killing Germans in WWII was not morally wrong. Trying to protect Vietnam from Communist cleansing was not morally wrong.
Your attempt at moral sophistication exposes the simplicity of your mind. Let's try Kant. Take an action and universalize it to see if it is good. Telling the truth is a moral good. If everybody is willing to go to war to protect the freedom of each other, this would be a moral good. If I universalize killing in the service of protecting my family, this is a moral good.
Morality has never been based on results. It is based on intention. Hence Just War Doctrine. To say that, gosh, one death is morally equivalent to another no matter what is moral blindness.
Even Berkeley would have taught you that.
Sargent,
You are projecting.
And so is your picture.
Monkey.
doug, all this time I thought it was you, using your iotm sign on
You were right about C4 though, better we let him rant about China. Once he gets going on the Jews, watch out.
Not a lot of mellow when he gets wrapped up in that subject.
That's racist, sir!
STILL haven't read all the posts:
"Any explosives experts out there? Check out this photograph. The explosion clearly did a hell of a lot of damage to the bus's structure, but the wreckage is remarkably char-free."
Is this the new Greenie Weenie Approved, Attack of the Future?
"Outstandingly Lethal, yet Surprisingly Non-Polluting."
IOTM
"Imbicile Of The Moment"????
It's puzzling how, when given a choice between living under "Palestinian" rule and living in the dreaded "Zionist Entity," "Palestinians" opt for the latter:
That Palestinian Arabs in large numbers prefer to live under Israeli control appears to result more from practical considerations than from an intent to submerge the Jewish state demographically. They see the PA as impoverished, autocratic, and anarchic. As one Palestinian explained, it is "an unknown state that doesn't have a parliament, or a democracy, or even decent universities."
Jamie Irons
Speaking of racist, bicycle racist Lance Armstrong finished today in first place.
Sargent,
Some of my best friends are Monkeys!
THAT guy is a GORILLA!
...on two wheels.
C4
Arlington, the National Cemetery, was Robert E Lee's estate. Taken by the Federals when General Lee abandoned Washington to fight for the anti american insurgency.
By your reasoning should we now return it to his heirs?
C4, not to put to fine a point on it, but who cares? London was just attacked by people who swallow "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" hook line and sinker. Having an historical debate seems kind of useless at this juncture. Even if you are right, the minds you change are not the ones that matter. In fact, you dilute the cause.
Shouldn't we try to figure out how to stop the terrorists? Let's focus on fixing the current problem of human missiles and random death, then we can set up institutions to adjudicate these complaints and grievances in a fair and civilized forum. Holding their women and children accountable in buses and pizzarias seems excessive, no?
Sargent--watered-down Aquinas and Kant references may make you look intelligent, but you and I know better.....
Was WWII fought to save the Jews? Or did British and American corporations do billions of dollars and pounds sterling worth of business with Hitler and the Third Reich during the actual conflict, after it had been determined that the Nazis were genocidal? Alcoa had a contract to give war materiel to the Third Reich even in the event of war between the USA and Germany. IBM provided the technology that helped round up the Jews for the death camps. Ford Motor plants in Germany were not bombed by Allied aircraft in 1943 and 1944, even though they were churning out equipment for the Nazis. The just war theory is nonsense, the only time it's OK to fight and kill is when you are being attacked, so stop trotting out tired references to WWII. If there is any one ultimate truth about human existence, it's that violence breeds violence. Demonizing Muslims may help you get through your daily existence, but it sure doesn't erase the stain of Christian conquest.
Berkeley was a philosopher, not my college, you dimwitted Christian fascist. Maybe you should blame Giuliani rather than Muslims for today's attacks--after all he was in NYC on 9-11 and was a pointman for the Bush gang coverup....maybe he can help destroy evidence in London the same way he did in NYC, running steel girders out of town by using the Mafia before architectural investigators had a chance to examine them.
And since you seem to enjoy dropping philosophers' names, here's some Nietzche for you--morality is bullshit, and Christianity is the most harmful concept to ever be foisted upon humanity.
You are the type of person who deserves GW Bush as your leader--you and your extra chromosome.
Fuck you.
One of these days, Arafatism will be a memory, and Palis will have caught on that Israel is for human dignity, and will have thrown in with her and built themselves up and out of the refugee camps where kleptocrats have successfully held them prisoner for a half-century.
Isn't Mcbain in the Simpsons or something?
I don't cotton to Gorillas. Nasty folk.
The guy I'm thinking about doesn't use the F word tho.
At least they don't say:
F U
Wow, great wit, there, alyosha! Way to handle ideas! Har har har! ;-)
That sure is a convincing argument.
I'll have to remember that, fuck you, yeah that will win converts.
Hell girl, I'm no christian but you've even managed to alienate me.
I'm opening up a
"Watered-down Aquinas and Kant"
Water Stand.
Any takers on the IPO?
Alyosha,
Your comments led me to believe that watered-down was the best way to go. Your clever riposte has enlightened me.
P.S. You have done a disservice to the eminent German philosopher. You have dropped an 's' somewhere.
Must hurt to realize you're losing the terror war, too. Whatcha got next? Hold your breath 'til you turn blue?
Two Triple Crowns in One Thread!
...latest at 2:13 PM
no jew either,
just an old heathen.
waiting for my turn at the giant mead table in the sky.
Hope Thor don't spank me with his hammer, just cause I like the serving wench
Off the table Mable.
These two bucks are for Ale.
...the wenches here all refer to me as "Buck."
Doug, not the Simpsons, Futurama, I think. The space-hero with "problems".
No Blood for Ohio!
No Blood for Ohio!
Blair's a Monkey Too?
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