Saturday, May 03, 2008

Lesbians versus Islam

Who wins?

An academic storm is brewing in Australia as Imams criticize "an Islamic studies course they claim is too sexually explicit, promotes lesbianism and derides the Koran as misogynistic ... The course includes excerpts from The Perfumed Garden by Sheik Nafzawi, a book on Arabian erotica written in the 16th century and translated into English in 1886 that has been likened to the Indian Kama Sutra." The course, which is being taught at the National Center of Excellence for Islamic Studies, is featured in three universities and funded by federal government money. If only the course were about the Bible instead of the Koran and the Kama Sutra it would have been closed down by now.

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Blogger ADE said...

And now that the inhabitants of Lesbos have not been 'respected' and want to reclaim the word, what's a man to do?

Enough to make you turn to religion.


5/04/2008 04:37:00 AM  
Blogger Stephen Renico said...

It's like the "Alien vs. Predator" films. I hope they both find a way to lose.

And I hope the Left eventually implodes from trying to bring so many diametrically opposed groups under one umbrella.

5/04/2008 04:41:00 AM  
Blogger Wadeusaf said...

"The imams council does not believe the course represents the normative traditional Islam as practiced by most of the world's Muslim population.

"The subject's emphasis on sexuality and its explicit sexual content is not reflective of normative Islam, which is what we thought the National Center of Excellence for Islamic Studies would attempt to portray," ANIC president Sheik Moez Nafti wrote."

Sorry Sheik, this has nothing to do with being normative and every thing to do with discerning excellence in Islam. Or some such nonsense.

5/04/2008 05:11:00 AM  
Blogger Teresita said...

" Islamic studies course they claim is too sexually explicit, promotes lesbianism and derides the Koran as misogynistic..."

Sexual preference is innate, like whether you like to use your right hand or your left. There are just as many left-handers, per capita, in the World of Islam as there are out here in the World of Infidels, but due to the bad rap the Q'u'r'a'n gives the left hand in general (like reserving it to fill in as toilet paper), you would be hard pressed to find a southpaw who is out of the closet in, say, Qatar. Both homosexuality and hand preference are modes the brain acquires when it is initially wired up during fetal development in the womb. So whether the Q'u'r'a'n promotes lesbianism or not, it has nothing to do with the incidence of actual lesbians, only with the incidence of out lesbians. As for the Q'u'r'a'n being misogynistic, who'da thunk it?

5/04/2008 06:25:00 AM  
Blogger bobal said...

Well stated, T.

5/04/2008 07:14:00 AM  
Blogger Andrewdb said...

Oh this will be fun - the professional victims of the Women's Studies Dept. vs. the professional victims of the Muslim Studies Dept.

Bring popcorn!

5/04/2008 09:03:00 AM  
Blogger Teresita said...

Andrewdb: Oh this will be fun - the professional victims of the Women's Studies Dept. vs. the professional victims of the Muslim Studies Dept.

There are five states where "minorities" are in the majority, from Hawaii at 75% to Texas at 52%. As time goes on, this state count will rise, until it will number 49 (Utah, perhaps, being the last bastion of lily whiteness). At that point, everyone in the United States will be a member of different victim classes demanding blanket reparations from everyone else.

5/04/2008 09:12:00 AM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

Someone should suggest to the good imams that there's room for a whole lot of hand action under those burka's and abaya's ... and how would they ever know?!?

5/04/2008 10:30:00 AM  
Blogger Andrewdb said...

T -

You are correct - I am in California, which is a "minority-majority" state already.

5/04/2008 12:14:00 PM  
Blogger whiskey_199 said...

The other alternative is simply Whites using majority rule to kill AA and all other preferences.

Since they'll never benefit, it's far more costly to them spread over smaller amounts of whites and speaks to the tribalism cultivated for a long time

5/04/2008 12:56:00 PM  
Blogger dla said...

Teresita said...
Sexual preference is innate, like whether you like to use your right hand or your left.

Well there's nothing like starting off with total crap to get people to respond...I'm sure you put that out there as bait as you seem too educated to actually believe that doo-doo.

But the subject is Islam's view of women. I believe that using a western PC-term like misogynistic is a bit shallow. After all, we're not talking about 1.2billion people who understand the mindless rantings of American femo-nazis. Why? Because these 1.2 billion people lack the context that frames the discussion.

Islam sees women as of lower intellect, but that isn't "women hating". Islam places unequal restrictions on men and women, but that isn't "women hating". The use of the term misogyny is really just more of the "hate" speach developed by Western fringe groups and represents the ugliness of Western civilization to Muslims. Just like pork, beer, tobacco, Britney Spears, etc.

You see, outside of America, outside of the PC liberal mindset, there is no context for people to accept homosexuality as "normal". This is where the make-believe of the Liberal clashes with the reality of the rest of the world. In this sense Islam is entirely correct.

You can argue that Islam has hobbled itself by under-utilizing half of it's population, and you would get a fair amount of agreement with those Muslims who would like to see Islam emerge from it's dark age. But leave the Western disease of political correctness out as nobody will take it seriously.

One of the biggest obstacles facing Christian evangelism isn't the Gospel message - that is received gladly. The obstacle is all of the decay of Western civilization. When a Muslim hears the word "Christian" they think Madonna, Britney, Hillary, Jack Daniels, Phillip Morris, Barney Frank, Elton John, etc... Much the same as the typical American who thinks "Osama Bin Laden" when they hear the word "Islam".

5/04/2008 01:05:00 PM  
Blogger bobal said...

Sexual preference is innate, like whether you like to use your right hand or your left.

Well there's nothing like starting off with total crap to get people to respond...I'm sure you put that out there as bait as you seem too educated to actually believe that doo-doo.

After listening to professor so and so from Oxford, top in his field, for two hours one night, explaining all the biological and chemical switches and gates that are negotiated in the first few days or weeks of fetal development to determine sexual identity, I do believe T. is right.

5/04/2008 02:22:00 PM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

Haven't heard any professors from Oxford, but it has been my life-long observation that people who are born left-handed can not control that impulse no matter how they're trained to be otherwise, so it makes sense to me that people who are homosexual must be born that way, too, no matter how they're trained to be otherwise.

I do sort of have a sneaking feeling, however, that a percentage of lesbianism must come from changing teams due to sexual abuse / rape from the men in a lesbians life, so that sometimes it may not be an innate physical thing, but a psychological response to a mental trauma.

Ahmadinnerjacket tell us that there are no homosexuals in Iran. Given the overwhelming lifelong mental trauma's that Muslim males put their females through, I wonder what the percentage is of lesbians in Iran and elsewhere Islamic.

5/04/2008 02:36:00 PM  
Blogger bobal said...

I was born right handed and tried to teach myself to write with my left hand once, to see if I could. In my case, it couldn't be done.

At least with the effort I put into it, before giving up.

5/04/2008 03:24:00 PM  
Blogger JacksonvillePat said...

It seems the elusive "Gay Gene" has yet to be found despite great efforts such as the Human Genome Project. We still struggle with the classic "Nature vs. Nurture" theories.

The Christian Medical and Dental Association web site has a good summary article with references to many scientific papers exploring the hereditary vs inherited nature of "SSSB [same sex sexual behavior]."

Here is part of the summary:

"Some brain,9,10 gene,11 hormone,12 and twin13 studies have been used to support an inherent origin for homosexual behavior. However, findings such as study design flaws and insufficient replication of studies have led researchers to conclude that there is no credible evidence that SSSB is genetically or biologically determined.14-20"

Homosexuality appears to be a behavioral problem with many potential contributing external factors and possible indirect influence of inherent traits. This behavior is voluntary, but often has an addictive component.14, 21, 22 Brain tissue is actually changed by habitual patterns of behavior, making SSSB sometimes difficult to treat.14 Claims of genetic or environmental determinism do not relieve individuals of responsibility for their behavior.

The removal of homosexuality from the list of mental illnesses in 1973 was not based on scientific evidence, but political ideology and activist infiltration of the American Psychiatric Association meetings and Board.14, 23 A survey of psychiatrists later showed that 69 percent disagreed and still considered homosexuality a disorder.14"

The entire summary with numerous references is available online.

5/04/2008 03:26:00 PM  
Blogger newscaper said...

Regarding this exchange:
"Sexual preference is innate, like whether you like to use your right hand or your left.

Well there's nothing like starting off with total crap to get people to respond...I'm sure you put that out there as bait as you seem too educated to actually believe that doo-doo."

I don't go as far as dla, but the starting PC shibboleth is a gross and fundamentally unscientific overstatement -- it tries to paint "homosexuality" as some monolithic phenomenon it clearly is not, as a binary either/or property instead of the spectrum of behavior and preferences we can plainly see in the real world.

It is self-evident that "homosexuality" ranges from cases that truly, 100% appear to be biologically 'hardwired' (whether genetic or fetal hormone exposure), to what might be termed 'psychological' homosexuality (e.g. the large number of lesbians who were victims of male sexual abuse, per field experience of my sister the social worker), to cases that are more clearly "choice" (college LUGs and other cases of trendiness, rebellion, or simple experimentation).

The concept has fallen into extreme disfavor, but *sometimes* it is "just a phase" -- and that's why many parents are uncomfortable with the idea of "counselors" in high schools being perhaps too ready to help troubled teens prematurely label themselves for life.

FWIW, I am NOT one of those RR types hyperventilating about the "gay lobby" recruiting... but there ARE cases at the margin that might sort themselves out (who won't get much help in the current PC climate.)

BTW, for whatever percentage of cases that are in fact hardwired from birth...
just because it is "natural" does not mean it should be considered "normal" -- there are plenty of "natural" flaws or maladaptations of all sorts that manage to persist (intermittently) in spite of the deleterious effects.
Me? I consider a trait that is functionally 'behavioral sterility' to be a bit of a problem and hardly in the same vein as variations in skin color or eye color.

That said, no one [who is sane] has issue with the statement that albinism or congenital blindness are not "normal", however "natural" they may be.

I'd also add that we can note their abnormality w/o saying anything negative about the *persons* with those conditions -- and that neither does it mean they should be forced by others to take some "cure" (even if there *was* one).

One more tangent from there...
relying on the "it's innate" defense (really meaning biological/developmental) is a two edged sword for those who use it.

Here's the problem -- what if a test is developed that would spot some [hypothetical] gene that under certain fetal conditions/triggers homosexual brain development? What if it is also discovered that some hypothetical hormone therapy administered to the mother safely and effectively prevented those developments? The kicker would be that it only worked in utero -- no waiting until 18 years so he/she can decide for himself.

This would *really* work -- not at all like the barbaric medical practices that passed for "treatment" for more than half of the 20th century. Aside -- perhaps earned guilt is why the psychiatric establishment bends so far backward the other way now, rightly recoiling in horror at what *they* did in the past. Little to do with "science" after all.

In this scenario, would using these therapies be "genocide"? Don't parents have responsibilities as well as rights to make these hard choices for their children?
{I'm not even going to talk about the abortion quandary.}

As an analogy -- for a hearing impaired child to learn to hear and speak spoken language most effectively, the earlier a cochlear implant is installed the better. An even more direct analogy -- there are certain flaws in the eye that can be corrected by surgery, but if a critical window in infancy is missed, the child's brain never learns to properly "see", to use the fixed h/w becasue the pathways in the brain have already been laid down incorrectly.

5/04/2008 03:41:00 PM  
Blogger Teresita said...

Bobal: I was born right handed and tried to teach myself to write with my left hand once, to see if I could. In my case, it couldn't be done.

Bobal, there are many gays and lesbians who want to be straight, because of the less-than-accepting atmosphere in many cultures. So you get the ex-gay movement. But then most of the spokespersons from the ex-gay movement have resumed their lives as gays, which gives you the ex-ex-gay movement. There's a commentator below who says they haven't found a Gay Gene yet. Well, a Gay Gene wouldn't make sense, because gays and lesbians don't, as a rule, breed. There's no handedness gene either. But 8% to 15% of human beings have their motor skills focused on the left hand rather than the right. It could be a cocktail of different genes that decides which way the baby will go. The whole kerfuffle is much ado about nothing.

5/04/2008 03:42:00 PM  
Blogger newscaper said...

I'll also add that the various manifestations of homsexuality, even within genders, is so diverse that to ascribe it all to one cause by fiat is suspect.

Just think about it--

highly (exaggeratedly) effeminate "flaming" men,
the otherwise invisible "straight acting",
"bears" and the ultra-macho leather bar types

"lipstick" lesbians,
butches with the stereotype mens pants and wallets.

That's not even going into the territory of transvestitism and trans-gendered.


To claim this all has one exact same cause is bordering on the absurd.

5/04/2008 03:48:00 PM  
Blogger newscaper said...

Actually some of it *could* be genetic.

The same gene that gives many blacks some resistance to malaria when haploid (one copy), causes sickle cell anemia when in a pair (diploid).

The deleterious effect piggybacks on what is otherwise a good adaptation.

There could be something similar going on here.

[No one says sickle cell is "nomral" becasue it is 'natural" or "innate".]

5/04/2008 03:52:00 PM  
Blogger bobal said...

I think the prof was saying, if I understood much of it, that it wasn't exactly genetic, but a matter of a hell of a lot of goings on during early development, lots of biochemical switches and this and that, which they were attempting to track down more fully, having only a partial picture at this time.

I got the distinct impression it wasn't a matter of falling away and worshipping strange gods.

5/04/2008 03:58:00 PM  
Blogger bobal said...

The genes decide whether you're a boy or girl. The development process has to do with the predispositions, widely variable, is the idea I got.

5/04/2008 04:00:00 PM  
Blogger Utopia Parkway said...

Of course there's no homosexuality in Islam. They just call it something else.

Islam’s Nancy Boys

Pederasty in the Middle East

Pederasty Scroll down to the middle east and central asia.

I guess if it's a man and a boy it's not homosexuality.

5/04/2008 04:40:00 PM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

Jacksonville - your Christian quote is not only slanted and biased, but it's also outdated, going back to pre-AIDS 1973.

Thinking (and facts) in the scientific world have evolved since then.

(We didn't think Muslims were too bad back then, either. Why we sent them guns in Afghanistan to shoot at Russians with. Perceptions change.)

5/04/2008 05:00:00 PM  
Blogger Charles said...

American Psychiatric Association Cancels Forum on Homosexuality and Religion
CitizenLink ^ | May 2, 2008

'Open dialogue' will have to wait until next time.

Under pressure from a homosexual bishop and his friends, the American Psychiatric Association (APA) has canceled a May 5 event in Washington, D.C., that promised “balanced discussion” on the origins and treatment of homosexuality.

The pro-homosexual speakers — Bishop Gene Robinson, an openly homosexual Episcopalian in New Hampshire, and Dr. David Scasta, past president of the Association of Gay and Lesbian Psychiatrists — had sought “common ground and new perspectives” with two conservatives: Dr. Albert Mohler, president of South Baptist Theological Seminary and a member of the Focus on the Family board of directors; and Dr. Warren Throckmorton, associate professor of psychology at Grove City College.

"The APA program committee approved this six months ago," Throckmorton told The Washington Times. "But when gay activists learned about it, they felt my views on homosexuality are conservative and they didn't agree with them. So they threatened to protest."

According to a statement from the APA: "Misinformation and rhetoric surrounding this event had risen to a level that would hinder the kind of open dialogue and interaction that was originally anticipated."

The symposium was titled “Homosexuality and Therapy: The Religious Dimension” and was to have taken place Monday.

In 1973, the APA dropped homosexuality from its list of mental illnesses. Its current position is that there is no clinical need or scientific basis for therapies aimed at changing people’s sexual orientation.

Also slated to speak was V. Gene Robinson, the gay Episcopal bishop from New Hampshire.

Triggering the cancellation of the symposium was Robinson’s last-minute decision not to participate. He said he believed conservative groups would tout the event as legitimizing reparative therapy.

For the rest of the article go here

5/04/2008 06:03:00 PM  
Blogger whiskey_199 said...

On a purely tribal basis, neither lesbians nor Muslims will win in the West.

Because this toleration of identity groups parading around with shows of political force is tolerated in good times. But not bad. Bad times are here or coming, thus you'll see the majority population with far less tolerance and more unease.

Declining absolute numbers makes Affirmative Action and the political space for that posturing impossible for the straight white majority to tolerate. It costs too much.

Muslims will be marginalized the most. Gays and Lesbians will be tolerated, but won't be the center of the complex but useless and meaningless "tolerance dance" which is all about displaying status and power for a thin aristocracy atop the white population.

The vast middle of whites neither celebrates nor condemns gays or Lesbians. They would prefer displays of affection kept private (as for straight couples too) and find the sorts of goings on at Folsom Street Fair disgusting, but would be horrified (for solidly middle class reasons) at gay bashing and want it punished.

Muslims have made themselves the enemy of Joe Average, so in the West will reap that perception. Which is likely accurate as far as it goes.

Muslim threats of violence will give them a short term advantage, but in the long run make them the losers.

5/04/2008 06:03:00 PM  
Blogger bobal said...

The vast middle of whites neither celebrates nor condemns gays or Lesbians. They would prefer displays of affection kept private (as for straight couples too) and find the sorts of goings on at Folsom Street Fair disgusting, but would be horrified (for solidly middle class reasons) at gay bashing and want it punished.

That's me.

5/04/2008 06:21:00 PM  
Blogger Mark said...

Theory is a powerful lever in shaping attitudes and outlooks. See, for example, how the ideology of 'sustainability' has provided context for political and social discussion regarding the environment. What 'sustainability' means is hopelessly vague, but it sounds good and provides instant context for vague impressions.

Hirsaj Manji is a lesbian, Muslim, and media personality in Canada. She urges attention to 'íjhitad,' or 'reinterpretation' regarding reading the Koran.

You and I, Belmont Club readers, don't have the intellectual tools to leverage radical Islam in non-offensive directions. Actors such as Manji have the standing and the tools.


5/04/2008 07:37:00 PM  
Blogger dla said...

Look folks, it is a waste of time to try to spread Political Correctness to the Muslim world. They are smart enough to spot the stupidity and they aren't well-off enough to entertain such silliness.

Does Islam hate women? By who's standards? According to the femo-nazis - yes. But they don't even have a following in America. According to a random selection of lesbians? - probably, but they have an even smaller following.

As I said before, the Muslim world lacks the context. Without the context, you can't have conversation on the Western concept of women's rights. Nor can you seriously expect the Muslim world to accept Elton John as "normal".

5/04/2008 08:42:00 PM  
Blogger JacksonvillePat said...

For many the 1973 decisions by the American Psychiatric Association removing Homosexuality as a disorder was cause for celebration. They were now free to practice a chosen lifestyle without the stigma of being classified as having a psychiatric disorder

However, there were some harmful effects. Many Psychiatrists had thriving practices treating those who considered their homosexual orientation as an unwanted compulsive disorder that they wanted help controlling. When homosexuality was no longer classified as a disorder, it was no longer a covered health benefit. Psychotherapy is very expensive and not affordable by many without health insurance in our current era of managed health care.

It seems that there are few options available to those with a sexual orientation they don't want but can't free themselves from.

Some may object to religious based programs for help overcoming an unwanted sexual compulsion but there are not many other options available.

5/05/2008 03:08:00 AM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

Some may not think there is anything to be overcome, and that it's natural and should be accepted by EVERYone including various religions.

5/05/2008 06:10:00 AM  
Blogger joe buz said...

How many divisions does the Rainbow coalition have? I mean imagine going to war and being in a firefight with a gay dude. He tells you that he will watch your six and you got one more thing to worry about.. We learn on the wire today that the first Mr. Gay UK ate his partner. Where is the news in that? I guess the news is that he cut him up first.

5/05/2008 06:13:00 AM  
Blogger bobal said...

When homosexuality was no longer classified as a disorder--I wonder if there was a reduction in the number of gay folk who felt disordered.

5/05/2008 06:25:00 AM  
Blogger Katchoo said...

Jacksonvillepat, you have tied yourself into a logical knot. If homosexuality is a mental disorder, then it cannot be a chosen lifestyle at the same time. No one chooses to be manic-depressive or bi-polar. If homosexuality is a malady, then it falls outside the realm of morality, unless you believe all pathologies are a punishment from God for sin. And when you state that there are few non-religious options available for a person who wants to free themselves of a sexual orientation you are assuming that it is possible to change in the first place.

5/05/2008 06:29:00 AM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

Joe Buz - I'll bet you think all black men have ginormous penises too, huh?

And that all blondes are dumb. (Tell that to Hillary, why don't you?)

I'd rather have a gay man who volunteered to fight for his country beside me than an uninformed hater like you.

5/05/2008 06:30:00 AM  
Blogger joe buz said...

Ah, Nahn I agree, beside is fine, behind not so much. I dont hate gays. You mistook my lame attempt at humor for hate. I'm a hetero lover not a homo hater. Gays, Lesbians and trans may have and live their lifestyles, choice, genetic or mutated. They trouble me not as long as they dont push their agenda on my children.

5/05/2008 07:25:00 AM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

Please accept my apologies, Buz. I misunderstood your post.

The gay men I know and are close to are *all* gentlemen in every sense of the word. Sometimes I think they are nature's next evolutionary step since we really don't need the sperm/egg thing any more to propagate the species. Many of them are charming, funny and well-rounded persons, so I have to believe they'd also make fine warriors.

5/05/2008 09:04:00 AM  
Blogger Swami said...

It seems logical to me, that if homosexuality was a choice and not a biological fact a few people get stuck with, then heterosexuality must be optional as well.

After all, assuming otherwise creates a paradox: We'd have to accept that gays are people who passed up a choice to be heterosexual, but hetersexuals faced no such choice.

I, being heterosexual, recall no such choice in my life. As far as I never decided this. It just seemed that one day I went to school and realized that looking at the girls was suddenly really, really, interesting. And over the years, like every other male, I let it come between myself and friends, myself and family, and it was a factor in at least 75% of the really stupid things I did in my teenage years- and over the next two decades. And not once did I ever get a say in the matter.

I recognize raw instinct when I feel it. Sexual preference is biological- like hunger and the need to breathe, there is no way anything so powerful is left to choice.

5/05/2008 10:58:00 AM  
Blogger bobal said...

You obviously need some help, Swami:) It's controlling your life, these compulsions.:)

5/05/2008 11:28:00 AM  
Blogger Gregory Kong said...

Umm. No. Homosexual *inclinations* or *tendencies* might not be a choice, but the *lifestyle* and *acts* are most definitely choices.

Similarly, you may have been wired to be left-handed (as I was), but if your mother was anything like mine and tied your left hand behind your back, you'd soon become right handed. And so it was. I can't write for nuts with my left hand now (of course, my writing using the right hand isn't much of anything either).

Alcoholism, too, has been demonstrated to have some genetic origins. Does that mean AA is doing something wrong when they say 'one day at a time' and their 12-step program? I would venture not, and similarly, I would argue homosexuality be treated the same way. There should be no 'shame', per se, if you're struggling with something well so's everyone else.

5/06/2008 12:19:00 AM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

But Mr. Kong, what right do YOU have to inflict your own personal view of morality (brought about by your mother's vicious child abuse) on other people around you who are just living their lives? Aren't you just passing on the abuse so that everyone can be as miserable as you have been?

5/06/2008 06:13:00 AM  
Blogger Katchoo said...

Gregory Kong, you are correct that homosexual acts are choices. I don't know what you mean by "lifestyle". It seems that only straights have lives, gays and lesbians only get to have lifestyles. Now imagine you're in a Twilight Zone episode where you wake up with your predilection for women intact, but everyone in society is telling you that you should only express your affection with other men. They are asking you to either change who you are on the deepest level, or eliminate the powerful drive of sexuality from your life forever, like a eunuch. Even the Lord recognized that not everyone was ready to make that committment. "For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it." --- Jesus Christ

5/06/2008 06:26:00 AM  
Blogger Yashmak said...

Well, if it makes any difference, I read a story the other day about an experiment in which scientists were able, by flipping a genetic 'switch' to cause mice to become sexually interested in the same gender. Switching the gene back, caused them to resume heterosexual behavior.

This would seem to dispell my prior notions that homosexuality is as much a learned behavior, as it is a genetic trait. I still believe that in some cases, it is a choice, and not dictated by the genes. But when homosexuality can be induced simply by manipulation of a gene? Even I, conservative as I am, must admit that it's at least partially genetic.

Those of you who believe that it's a decision, not a genetic trait. . .well there's more and more evidence to the contrary.

5/06/2008 12:55:00 PM  
Blogger Gregory Kong said...

Nahncee: Hmm. So, my mother was vicious, an abuser and now I'm an enabler passing this viciousness on to the next generation, is that so?

Exactly the way I feel about active homosexual couples with guardianship rights over children.

My point only was that it is possible to modify genetic and behavioural traits. Sure, the methods are seemingly extreme. So what? My father had rattan rods made specially for corporal punishment. Before that, he used the belt. I got off lucky - by my turn, he switched over to feather dusters, which still hust like the blazes, btw. Up to as few as two generations ago, by your standards most parents were vicious abusers and sado-masochists. This I refuse to countenance. And I don't think I'm building any strawmen here - I don't see a problem with corporal punishment or corrective methods on southpaws.

Again, all I am saying is that acting out your impulses is a conscious CHOICE. For instance, I could be a pedophile. Or a psychopath. Or, for crying out loud, a kleptomaniac. But unless I act out my impulses and tendencies, I'm safe as houses. And while we may not be able to control our thoughts, emotions and feelings, we can and often do control our ACTIONS.

Katchoo: And what is the homosexual lifestyle? Well, not all homosexuals live it, thank God. Most likely just want to do what everybody else does; join the rat race, get the 4Cs (Singaporean-speak, go look it up), have a few vacations, retire in comfort, etc etc etc. Hey, that's cool.

The 'lifestyle' I'm talking about include; extreme promiscuity, touchiness, the whole BDSM schtick, in-your-face attitude, always asking for more 'rights', what is still called 'public display of affection' in my neck of the woods, even, heaven help me, loud, flamboyant dressing. I daresay any and all of these traits are not genetic and to a large degree individual choices. Heck, no small number of heterosexuals do this sort of crap too, after all.

Heterosexually inclined people have lifestyles, no doubt. Rich and famous lifestyle, poor lifestyle, fashionable lifestyle, green lifestyle, need I go on? They're basically an agglutination of all the choices someone makes.

yashmak: I hope I need not point out the obvious and say that we are not mice. Yet another experiment was conducted where the mice had to choose between an electrical signal that stimulated the sexual pleasures of their brains, and food, and the mice literally screwed themselves to death. Should we, then, say that humans. given the same choice, would do the same? I think not.

One of the things that happened during the gay gene experiment, so to speak, was the fact that it screwed up their pheromonal response mechanism, iirc. Regardless of what it is, many things are genetic in nature, including CF and haemophilia. That does not mean we should not take corrective actions.

I guess the balancing point is whether you believe homosexual orientation is in itself 'abnormal' or not. For myself, I believe it is, along with all that entails. But this is a point on which many have differing opinions, and I respect that.

5/06/2008 11:21:00 PM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

Kong, I bet you make your acquaintances call you King, don't you?

Fritzl, the Austrian daughter raper, is virulently heterosexual. I just do not understand how someone like you can condemn what two consenting (and often loving) adults do between themselves, stamp your little hoof, and shout that ONLY heterosexuality is "normal".

Since you don't seem to understand the difference between abuse and punishment, if I were a judge sitting on a bench I would be more inclined to give over parentship to a child to a couple of gay peole than to yourself who thinks it is "normal" to tie a child's arm down for an extended period of time ... to "break" him of a "bad habit" like you break a horse of the habit of being free and riderless.

That you brag about this now indicates that you've brought this cycle of vicious punishment into the current generation, so that you probably think the Austrian daughter-raper is "normal" and applaud his disciplinary methods to keep his daughter off of drugs and a life of sin.

In other words, I hope your family has 9-1-1 on speed dial and the cops are keeping an eye on you.

5/07/2008 06:16:00 AM  
Blogger Gregory Kong said...

Dear nahncee:

Congratulations, you have now proven to me, at least, that you are a lefty, and that I need not pay too much attention to you.

I would indeed add here that it is the Left that conflates abuse and punishment, and that behaviour/tendencies can be changed if caught early enough.

And somehow, you also manage to drag the horrific acts of the Austrian nutjob into a discussion on whether homosexuality can be managed rather than just embraced wholeheartedly.

Further, you now not only insult me, you insult my family name and my family. You know what? Go stuff yourself. With a watermelon. It'll probably fit.

5/07/2008 08:05:00 PM  
Blogger JJ Joseph said...

NahnCee said...
"The gay men I know and are close to are *all* gentlemen in every sense of the word. Many of them are charming, funny and well-rounded persons, so I have to believe they'd also make fine warriors."

Well, not all the gays boys I grew up with were that well behaved. Maybe gays are different here? They were without a doubt bullies and beasts. We had a terrible time defending ourselves from daily threats of buggery in the woodshed. Not a one of them ever made "fine warrior" status.

5/27/2008 02:17:00 PM  

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