Tuesday, August 09, 2005

Comments Policy

I've adopted a hands-off policy towards comments at the Belmont Club because the vast majority bring valuable insight to the discussion. Occasionally I'll get mail complaining about offensive comments; and fair enough, there are some which are pretty tasteless and a few which are downright offensive. Since I'm ultimately responsible for maintaining the 'tone' of this site the choices open to me are:

  1. To appeal to everyone to avoid making comments which a reasonable person may consider to be anti-Arab, anti-Semitic etc. or comments of a scatological nature.
  2. Confine posts to "safe" subjects which are unlikely to generate controversial comments.
  3. Disable comments.

I've decided to try #1 for a bit and to see how it goes. Failing that, it's on to numbers 2 and 3.

Update

Comments contribute much, perhaps even most, of this site's value. Threads at their best are very good indeed and that vitality needs to be protected. Often the best part of the discussion comes in the first 70 or so comments and the quality of the thread seems to depend on how well the first 20 do. But sometimes the discussion gets hit by an early "thread killer" and never reaches its potential. One way to prevent this, I think, is to try to keep from commenting more than twice on the same thread (myself included) and making a conscious effort to stay civil.

The choice of post topic may in some way be related to ensuing discussion, as Geraldo and Rikki Lake doubtless knew; and it is the only variable I can directly control. All I'm saying is I'll do my best to keep the Belmont Club and its threads at the level its commenters deserve.

234 Comments:

Blogger Solomon2 said...

Oh, Wretchard, you've done gone PC on us!

8/09/2005 01:37:00 AM  
Blogger kosumi said...

what does 'limit posts' to safe topics mean? if that means your posts, wretchard, then i'm all in favor of doing number 3 before number 2.

8/09/2005 02:31:00 AM  
Blogger kosumi said...

for folks who complain to wretchard that the dislike other's comments i suggest this:

http://denbeste.nu/cd_log_entries/2004/08/Thanksforallthefish.shtml

wretchard does a cost/benefit analysis on belmont club. he shares his thoughts with us because the benefits to him exceed the cost. complaints about ANYTHING are likely to increase his percieved cost. just like they would for you. complaints about things other people do, that wretchard had nothing to do with are almost certain to increase his percieved cost. just like they would for you.

i don't know wretchard from adam. im not trying to pose as his friend or some special guy in the "cool cat club." simply no one like nitpickers. even if they have valid points. and if you appreciate wretchard's thoughts as i do, please join me in not nitpicking. about anything. ever. :-)

8/09/2005 02:50:00 AM  
Blogger Mətušélaḥ said...

Cedarfart had his farting fits again? Man, that boi stinks.

8/09/2005 03:24:00 AM  
Blogger Barry said...

For God's sake, Wretchard, don't start censoring yourself. Some folks don't play well with others, it's true, but in general your blog attracts a fairly intelligent readership; most of us should be mature enough to ignore the trolls and idiots when they occasionally pop up.

One of the perils of having an enormously popular blog (not that I would know personally :-) ) is that even if only 0.1% of the blog-reading population is bugf***ing insane, a few of them will show up at your site eventually due to sheer numbers.

8/09/2005 03:28:00 AM  
Blogger fjelehjifel said...

"2. Confine posts to 'safe' subjects which are unlikely to generate controversial comments."

You've got to be kidding, right?

The easiest option would be to turn off the comment function for a while and see what that does to site traffic.

The difficult option would be take a more active role in moderating the discussion, i.e., removing offensive posts, admonishing/banishing recidivists, etc.

Some sites have rules for comments, plus some kind of moderation capability.

See Donald Sensing's comment policy for example.

I guess it all comes down to what you want to accomplish. If you want to play it safe with minimal effort, then yanking the comments is the best way.

If someone really has something they want to say, they will most likely email you. You could then decide whether to share that email with the readership. Perhaps you could have a weekly or biweekly feature in which you address some of the more interesting emails.

Yes, some of the commentary on this site is "over the top." Some of it is very perceptive and quite good. But note this: The comments are not why I come here. I come here to read what you write, and yes, at odd times, to occasionally comment.

I've been reading Belmont Club consistently for the past 18 months, or thereabouts. You deal with some difficult topics in thoughtful and provocative ways.

If you choose to deal with safe subjects--whatever those are--you'll most likely cease to be interesting. And the comment problem will solve itself.

8/09/2005 04:41:00 AM  
Blogger Goesh said...

I agree with Barry. I wonder who the whiners are, given the nature of your topics and strong, pro-democracy, anti-islamofacist commentary coming from the vast majority of your respondents. I really would wonder who they are and what their real intent is. There are subtle ways to silence participation, and in a forum of this nature, the most affective way would be to flood it with vulgarity and racism to the point where you stop commentary and the sharing of ideas/feelings. Call me paranoid if you want, but any rallying point draws attention. You may get threatening e-mails, you may get a fatwa, you may get a letter from some pro-islamofacist organization or other such groups operating under the guise of legitimacy, like CAIR, you may get complaints to the FCC as well. Truth can be measured by the opponents it attracts, as well as the message it delivers. One respondent drew a business analogy. Well, as your business expands, it requires more time and effort to sustain. You may have to block a few trolls, but I feel confident that the audience will assist by condemning and ignoring blatant racists and crazy people. I would really hate to see you disable the comments section. I have learned alot via the comments and I would suggest again that the whiners have ulterior motives.

8/09/2005 04:42:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

goesh said,
"I feel confident that the audience will assist by condemning and ignoring blatant racists and crazy people."
---
CPUAH says:
Hate Speech Will also be Banned.

Crazy people united against hate speech.

8/09/2005 05:02:00 AM  
Blogger CatoRenasci said...

Wretchard, I've been with you since your earlier days of insightful posts on Free Republic. I know there is something of a Gresham's Law (bad money drives out good) working on the commentary, and that one must guard oneself against deterioration into grossly bigoted nonsense.

However, it seems to me that in the course of doing so, by trying ban "anti-Arab" comments, you are coming close to the line of political correctness and preventing the serious discussion of the war in which we are in -- at least in the more meta-discussion sense rather than the particular tactical questions. It seems to me a perfectly legitimate line of argument, if rather unpalatable, to hold that Islam, and its votaries, are fundamentally hostile to Western civilization.

8/09/2005 05:06:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

I agree with the previous commenters. The answer to speech is more speech. Very few comments are totally without merit--even if that merit is only an unintended demonstration of meritlessness. A few literate hate-mongers here and there will better than anything else warn eloquently that all trouble can't be easily dismissed as the work of morons.

8/09/2005 05:10:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

CatoRenasci,
Shut Up:
The Religion of Peace brooks no commentary from Kaffir.

8/09/2005 05:13:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Discovery is home! Thank God, thank NASA, thank goodness. The old conestoga wagon of manifest destiny has eluded the space scythe once again!

8/09/2005 05:14:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Mr. Larsen!!!
My demonstration of meritlessness was *INTENDED*
(Satire)
How dare you insult me like this!

8/09/2005 05:16:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Buddy,
Have you seen the astronauts plans for using EXISTING shuttle hardward as a booster w/ separate crew rocket?
That was my Idea back when the first one blew up!
Engineer Poet has a post on it and the NY Times recently did too.

8/09/2005 05:18:00 AM  
Blogger Red River said...

I am old enough ( or had no adult supervision) to recall when the first trolls made some usenet groups useless.

Every ecosystem requires predators.

8/09/2005 05:27:00 AM  
Blogger wretchard said...

CatoRenasci,

There are no forbidden topics, but I wonder whether there shouldn't be discouraged modes of argument. This site was made by the quality of its commenters. The atmosphere that made that possible has to be preserved.

How to do this? Some sites (including the Free Republic) use moderators as thread bouncers. Others have blogging software that delays publishing comments until they've been gated or controls access through some kind of privileges system. I have neither the time nor inclination to do any of that.

The last solution is to hope the site polices itself, strange as that may sound. But I think this has a better chance of happening if it is put forward as an explicit goal.

8/09/2005 05:30:00 AM  
Blogger luminary said...

Censoring to safe topics is like dissecting a frog. Few people are interested and the frog dies of it.

8/09/2005 05:38:00 AM  
Blogger al fin said...

This is a life and death struggle between the return to primitivism, and the advance to a decent future. There is no way to "pretty that up." It is too ugly to be presented as a gentlemen's debate.

The internet is large, with sites available for all possible points of view. No one needs to be shut out. It is for each person to find his niche.

8/09/2005 05:50:00 AM  
Blogger CatoRenasci said...

Wretchard,

Thanks for your reply. I do understand the problem. Perhaps it's the way you phrase your goals. I took (mild) umbrage at the "anti-Arab" language.

I don't want to sound like I'm trying to tell you how to run your site -- as you do an admirable job -- but perhaps something like:

No reasoned argument is unwelcome here, even if it is unpalatable to some. Epithets and "kill all the XXXXXs" are not reasoned argument. I understand, if I cannot condone, an occasional need to vent. If you feel the need to use that kind of language, do it elsewhere. Little Green Footballs has a much more open comment policy, as does Free Republic: check them out.

8/09/2005 06:02:00 AM  
Blogger Goesh said...

- you stand accused of inciting participatory democracy, of inflaming the passions of self and cultural survival and fostering anti-islamofacist sentiment - if there was ever grounds for a fatwa, this is it - but maybe you are just pandering to the common man whose rhetoric and thoughts are not flowery and mere regurgitation of what others have already put in print......

8/09/2005 06:11:00 AM  
Blogger Dan said...

Well out of laziness I think I've crossed that line a few times recently. In my case, the mode slips rather easily from analytical-polemical to diatribe at what seems like a late stage for recognition of reasonably obvious aspects of this conflict. I can't speak for Cedarford or others, but when I rant against "Arabs" and "Russians," that is merely shorthand for their culture; it isn't a racial comment. Race is an illusion. But the point is well-taken, Wretch. One of the things I love about Belmont Club is the resistance to lazy, received thought.

8/09/2005 06:13:00 AM  
Blogger Dan said...

Heyhey - how sweet is that guilty plea from the Russian UN guy over Oil-for-Food? And the French Sevan is next. Now that is satisfying news, with much more assuredly to come.

8/09/2005 06:16:00 AM  
Blogger RWE said...

Wretchard:
In is really quite simple to just breeze past the "objectionable" comments quickly. The human mind is a remarkably adaptive item and can get the gist of something even at high speed, at least enough to identify things you don't want to be bothered with.
A rather more difficult issue is getting Off Thread. Sometimes this leads to quite interesting discussions in their own rights, but not really related to the original topic. This can be disappointing when you have raised an especially intriguing point, and then the discussion proceeds into the different sizes of bread pans employed in Madrid before and after the loss of the Spanish Armada. Maybe a "different channel" approach would be useful where people could carry on the breadpan discussions. I had thought this was the original concept behind the Belmont Lounge but it does not seem to be doing that.
And speaking of Off thread... Buddy and Doug: Thank God indeed that they got down okay this morning. Here at the Cape we will never again regard a Shuttle landing as casual as we once did. I never thought that it was possible to miss hearing a sonic boom so much as I did that Saturday morning.
But fact is, the Shuttle is a simply terrible vehicle, unreliable, very costly in every respect, and unacceptably hazardous. Designing it the way we did was bad idea, the accompanying national policies were utterly catastrophic and the manner in which it was operated downright criminal at times.
It is true that it has capabilities nothing else has, but on the other hand those are mostly capabilities we don't need.
We have two new rockets available, courtesy of the USAF, and they can do a better job, cheaper, and safer of launching both humans and cargo into space than the Shuttle ever could.
In 1985 I said, "When the last Space Shuttle is accepted by the Smithsonian you will be able to watch the ceremony by means of a satellite launched by an expendable booster." That is going to be true, but unfortunately the booster that launched that satellite will almost certainly not have been built in the U.S.
Shuttle did that.

8/09/2005 06:18:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Is the discussion of nuking Medina anti-Arab?
Is discussion of the situation in Sudan anti-Mohammedan
Is discussion of the situation in Zimbabwe anti-black?
Is discussion of Israel's existence anti-jew?
Is the word Mohammedan offensive?
Is discussion of WWII death campsanti-German?
Is the discussion of the Rape of Nanking anti-Jap?
It is easy to offend
doug has already broken the two post per thread request, I don't find that at all offensive.

I agree with luminary @ 5:38am

Live Free or Die

8/09/2005 06:24:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Goesh 6:11,
Well Said!

8/09/2005 06:24:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

'Rat,
Don't get flirty or I'll raise my skirty.

8/09/2005 06:25:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

I find the best way to counter c4's anti-jewish/anti-zionist speech is to let him go over the top like he did in gaza... when he states "zionists are liars and leeches" it just diminishes his other points...

I have encountered jew haters all my life, c4 is not exceptional...

let him hate.... let me poke fun at him and laugh

8/09/2005 06:26:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

btw,
If it WAS an Italian Stallion, it's entirely umderstandable, IMHO.

8/09/2005 06:26:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Pork,
I still like Hezbollah as a Stand In for Giulianni/Bratton as a police presence for the 21st Century.

8/09/2005 06:28:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

Pork,
I still like Hezbollah as a Stand In for Giulianni/Bratton as a police presence for the 21st Century.

--spitting coffee out my nose...

8/09/2005 06:30:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

'Rat said,
"It is easy to offend."
---
For you, perhaps,
I've never had that problem, thank you.

8/09/2005 06:31:00 AM  
Blogger Tony said...

Good. It's good to have a bit of civilization, don't want to descend into a bicker blog like all the rest. But, as others have said, I find the posters here to be very informative, and I find 'one way' blogs like Powerline to be sort of old-fashioned. I hope Belmont doesn't go that way.

Now, as for the one post per thread, that sort of deadens 'conversation' on topics.

I think the rule should be that you only post what you would say to a stranger in a strange club. No hiding behind the keyboard. And resist the urge to TYPE TOO MUCH.

8/09/2005 06:32:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

Thanks to C4's hatred of all things Israeli/zionist, my self esteem has changed.. here i thought i was a chubby bald impodent middle aged whimpy jew boy...

now i realize i strike fear in the hearts of many, i too am "jew warrior" complete with super human messiah like abilities!

thanks c4... live in fear i may start a new israel in ohio...

8/09/2005 06:33:00 AM  
Blogger NooYawkah said...

My hope is that, if the content of the original post is thoughtful enough (and has always been), the more obtuse potential commenter will get bored before finishing the article and never even bother posting a response.

However, I don't know what the change in the size of bed pans has to do with the Spanish Armada.

8/09/2005 06:34:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Did you delete all the comments on "Eyeless in Gaza" or is it a Blogger delemia?

8/09/2005 06:36:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

And, too, it's easy to misinterpret a satiric or ironic post, where the commenter makes a 'nuke Mecca' or somesuch wild comment. Things said in order to illustrate points I'm sure are often read straight on as simple advocacy. Doug, for example, often does a superbly convincing job of satirizing numbskullery.

8/09/2005 06:41:00 AM  
Blogger anybudee said...

Wretchard

As an offender, (I'm sure I've killed a few threads and jerked a few others in different directions) I'm certainly open to rebuke.

Most of my comments come from a christian point of view because that is my paradigm. And I cannot escape from the sense that THAT is the real nature of the GWOT. (I sincerely believe Osama bin Laden would say that, from the other side, of course)

I know that poeple who espoused beliefs like mine were considered 'anti-revolutionary', 'antisocial' or mentally ill even, in the former Soviet Union and were locked in the gulag. (with Alexandr, Andrei and Natan)

I do not believe that there is anything inherently anti-semitic about biblical christianity. Although others have certainly tried to make it so, I have tried to steer away from that. Even to allowing many insults to pass unanswered.

But this is your deal man. And I will take cues from you.

I've looked up scatalogical in several different places. Are you talking about real 'crap' or just "crap", in general?

8/09/2005 06:41:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Ohio?
What would we do with all the non-Jewish Ohioans? Send them to Nevada? Refugee camps sponsored by the UN, right outside of Vegas?

C4 may be right, you Zionists want to control the World.
First a little piece of the Middle East, now you want Ohio.
Give 'em an inch...

doug,
Offensive is always better the defensive

8/09/2005 06:43:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

REW - What do you think about this?

8/09/2005 06:48:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

As far as C4, what confuses him is that nobody gives a shit about the Zionist Takeover of the World. I mean, so what? We could do woise.

8/09/2005 06:49:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

'Rat,
Right:
The Prevent Defense Doesn't.
(but of course, your no homeland defense initiative stinks.)

8/09/2005 06:49:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Buddy,
My neck is a very sensitive area.

8/09/2005 06:50:00 AM  
Blogger Zeno said...

I don't mind the occasional offensive comments, but I'm slightly annoyed by the spam-comments that have tended to appear here since some weeks ago. Is there any way to block them with some kind of software?

8/09/2005 06:51:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

It is not No Homeland Defense that I advocate, it is EFFECTIVE Homeland Defense.
In NYC they have searched over 10,000 bags so far, not one bomb.

Cost effective Defense is not found on the subway platform level.

8/09/2005 06:53:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

Ohio?
What would we do with all the non-Jewish Ohioans? Send them to Nevada? Refugee camps sponsored by the UN, right outside of Vegas?


vegas is ours already... you forget we took sand dunes and nothing, turned it into vegas...

I am betting la raza will "palestinianize" their anti-usa revolt and target vegas as the new "gaza" demanding the return of their sand, the usa will then make the jews of vegas either sell out to la raza at rock bottom prices or if the jew control vegas refuses and bulldozes it, i am sure we will fund la raza to rebuild

8/09/2005 06:54:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

mr x,
Yes, there were NONE of those for years, then all of a sudden, there they were.
"Very informative Blog blah blah"

8/09/2005 06:54:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

'Rat,
Kyle in 2008 would do for me.

8/09/2005 06:55:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

6:48 - RWE

8/09/2005 06:59:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

porker
You may well be right. La Raza is infiltrating a million or so "non-combatants" into Atzland each year.
An invasion of historic proportions that is unaddressed by Washington's power elite.
Enforce the existing Immigration Laws until they are changed. That is the duty of Bush & Company, and they are failing.

8/09/2005 07:02:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

'Rat, 7:02,
Amen.

8/09/2005 07:07:00 AM  
Blogger husker_met said...

Wretchard:

Your site, your rules. I, however, would let the offensive be offensive. Weeding them out is as simple (for me) as collapse and ignore.


Pork Rinds:

I would like to request that in the upcoming takeover the capitol of the Jewish state of Ohio be Katzinger's in Columbus. Best cheesecake in the universe, and damn good pickles too.

Uh, you know...when you get your filthy Zionist tentacles around to it. I'm sure there must be other priorities. **Wink**

8/09/2005 07:10:00 AM  
Blogger Simon Kenton said...

I ran a couple of groups, and set up simple rules to respect one another's scholarship and maintain civility. The test I applied was straight from the nursery (or the New Testament). You don't post (twice) something you would not like to receive. Because fussing is uncongenial to me, I expelled without warning. One moment, you were calling someone a stupid shit; the next, your emails bounced. The people I banned were clearly unhappy in the group, and had largely ceased to contribute anything other than the self-referential 'Portrait of a Net-clod as a PC Middle-Aged Man.' None of them ever wanted to come back, though that gate could have been reopened. There are people who are 2 or 13 in perpetuity, and can cohere with their concept of how the universe operates only by being in eventual opposition to every group that ever accepts them.

Writ small, this my policy was one answer to larger questions of free speech versus the preservation of a community. I'm not sure it's your answer, or your community's.

8/09/2005 07:26:00 AM  
Blogger Frank said...

(W)richard:

Thanks for your most interesting of sites of in-sight. It is obviously full well within your province to edit in anyway you deem appropriate this your own site. Of your options I for one would would trust your judgment to delete/edit all you consider improper for the tone/character of your site's comments. It might be seemly to correct/adjust to that standard if easy enough than to simply delete only that are offensive. An example of what I could call truthful but surely that which might be offensive to Islam is whether Islam is a terrorist religion or whether the Islamist-Muslim is freed to lie for his/her persistence in the freedom of Western society. Please consider this type situation as you ponder your options.

Frank

8/09/2005 07:36:00 AM  
Blogger Marcus Aurelius said...

There is good reason for what Wretchard states.

There is a difference between honest and blunt analysis and being anti-Arab & anti-Semitic. On the whole all that goes on here very much realizes where the lines are.

Charles Johnson brings up good points, but some of the loons that comment over there detract from the overall credibility of LGF. Wretchard simply doesn't want that happening here.

8/09/2005 07:41:00 AM  
Blogger jakita said...

Wretchard,

In my "real" world (meat world?), PC-ness has an iron grip on all conversation. As one who genuinely fears the spread of Islam, I look for sites that attract honest discussions. Part of the dangers we face comes from traditional Arab thought processes. These need to be discussed re democracy in Iraq and similar places.

Re Cedarford's antisemitism--actually I've found it slightly interesting. At first I thought that he was an antisemitic Jew. Believe me, they exist. I had three in my family. You can imagine the delightful family get-togethers we enjoyed. Anyway, one Cedarford is not a blogkiller and he can be banned, if necessaary.

However, the great value of your blog is (1) your amazing and beautifully written analyses, and (2) the comments of many well-informed specialists. Keeping posters to two comments seems to be a conversation killer--though I'm not a big fan of chitchat and repartee--but that's just me.

I do like to discuss important issues, and if occasional posters go over the top, they should be called on it or deleted.

8/09/2005 08:04:00 AM  
Blogger Ash said...

I am a free speech person at heart however there are problems with commenting here. Part of it is simply the limitations of the format; basically a thread starts and it is linear whether on topic or off. I was interested in the Gaza thread but I didn't make a post because so much of the discussion lies in real time. If I come in a day or two late, a new thread has started and that one is ignored.

On two post limit - if one is discussing something it is impossible to do a point - couterpoint effectively with only two comments. I do find Doug irritating and I long ago stopped reading his comments. Even scrolling by him he rankles simply because his name appears so often. Maybe he has something valuble to say, maybe not, I sure won't know.

The problem with the censor's deletion though is that it invariably reflects the censor's viewpoint and if nothing else gives the impression that the site is edited to reflect that bias.

Ultimately, I find the discussions my favorite aspect of places like this. No offense meant to wretchard, your insights are valuable but they become a leaping point for the discussion that follows and that is a good thing. This site would not be as good if there were no comments.

8/09/2005 08:06:00 AM  
Blogger Rick Ballard said...

I don't believe that Blogger provides effective tools for comment administration. I don't even think that individuals can be effectively banned. Deletion of posts through constant attention to threads obviously eats time that could be spent more productively.

With commenter names at the top of posts, scrolling through the drivel is not a particularly burdensome task. Especially when you know that SuperJew will be along to do the appropriate shredding of Edsel's slower brother's musings. Henry must be proud that the road apple fell so close to the horse.

Besides, there are those who enjoy acting the sparrow, pecking through the manure pile in the hope of finding a seed. While I don't especially understand the allure, the world is a very big place.

I will try to respect whatever rules Wretchard wishes to establish for his Club. And I will continue to offer financial support in the hope that one day a proper platform can be utilized which allows Wretchard to exercise higher functional control without wasting time as a thread monitor.

8/09/2005 08:06:00 AM  
Blogger Fernand_Braudel said...

...But if I assert that everything that Hitler falsely accused the Jews of doing to the West, the Arab-Moslems really are doing, am I being anti-Arab-Moslem?

No.

I assert that I am being factual. And thus should not be purged from commenting.

Or am I missing something subtile, nuanced, or politically correct?

< /trap-for-the-unwary >

8/09/2005 08:14:00 AM  
Blogger Baron Bodissey said...

Wretch,

Actually, your comment threads are civil and reasonable by average blog standards. I've bounced around on quite a few blogs, and commenters here, though they argue contentiously, are generally civil. Compare, for example, LGF.

I remember the days of the Troll-Whose-Name-Must-Not-Be-Mentioned. Things are much better now.

I'm amazed you don't get comment spam. We saw some at Gates of Vienna recently.

My advice is:
1. Kill the trolls' posts. Show no mercy.
2. If non-troll commenters become obnoxious with ad-hominem or intemperate words, insert a moderating comment or two, asking them to control themselves.

The comment threads here are really cool. Please don't get rid of them if you can possibly avoid it.

Besides, Doug would go into terminal depression if you did.

8/09/2005 08:15:00 AM  
Blogger gumshoe1 said...

redriver said...

I am old enough(or had no adult supervision) to recall when the first trolls made some usenet groups useless.

Every ecosystem requires predators.

5:27 AM


it would appear our esteemed wretchard is now,commentator,
moderator,and predator.

though perhaps he doesn't relish the latter role.

no question in my mind
this particular ecosystem
deserves one.

it's sad to think
that in the midst of an era
of mind-leveraged-media-wars
that a site like this
could have its lights put out.

m2c-
-gumshoe

8/09/2005 08:21:00 AM  
Blogger Dave H said...

Wretchard, LGF does have one very useful feature that you have not installed. All the posts are numbered, this greatly facilitates making specific replies to any post and also helps when you are returning to a thread and want to pick up about where you left off. We have a group of frequent posters who comment back and forth so much between them selves that it adds a large amount of essentially non productive chatter, unfortunately again spiced with common sense so you nearly always get trapped into reading posts a lot of which consist of nearly private references (to other threads perhaps). How about adding an OT flag? Then users like me can skip some posts. As a latecomer to this site I try to limit my comments, I do have an unfortunate tendency to derail threads if anyone pays attention to my rants.

8/09/2005 08:30:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Yes Baron, we must save doug from the manic depression of living un the Islands.
It is just so hard, for Ali doug del Belmonti, to believe in allahs Paradise when he lives in one of his own.
In the Paradise of his mind he can be a Space Adventurer, in allah's he would be left with only a fruit basket, he'd have a case of sour grapes

8/09/2005 08:31:00 AM  
Blogger Anybudee said...

There's a lounge?!?

Does it have an open bar?

8/09/2005 08:36:00 AM  
Blogger Dymphna said...

You make an interesting point about the first 20 or so comments -- those are usually the ones I read the most carefully. That is, if I'm not just itching to comment on your post to begin with...sometimes I like to know which road the conversation is headed down before I join.

Before you make a decision, Wretchard, would you (if you have the time) look at the comments on other sites? In my experience, the ones here -- warts and all -- are a cut above those anywhere else. In fact, once you take into account the quantity here, the quality is amazing.

But people don't come to comment first. We come to read your inimitable analysis. You combine insight, knowledge, intuition and a pellucid style. Breadth and depth, old boy. So please do not make a limiting of your posts one of the considerations.

Besides, as far as the bigots and meanies go, why can't people just scroll past? You see "Cedarford" at the top of the post, glaze your eyes and move past him. One of the changes to blogger comments that I like is the fact that the name comes first -- in the old days I used to read your comments from bottom to top so I could see the name first. Now I don't have to.

I sent you a note on "koinonia" -- a thread on several places (Glittering Eye and American Digest come to mind) that is the beginning of a conversation on conversation in the blogosphere. If you're not familiar with the book, I'll send you a copy...I think the idea is going to grow over time...but look around. I've not tried to google it for info. Sure is up your alley, though, and definitely applies to this post and comments conversation.

Please don't go the Donald Sensing route. He's such a...I like his blog, but it's like having a commanding officer. He's probably a good minister for that, though. I don't go there much since the page takes an eon to load and because I don't always find his thinking in tandem with what I'm on, but he's good. However, you've a more broad-based appeal.

Kosumi- don't scare us with denbeste! Besides, he was ill when he quit blogging so it's not quite the same. Part of Belmont's appeal is W's essential optimistic gentleness. den Beste was/is not an exemplar of that mode of dialogue. Brilliant? Yes. Benign and non-reactive? No.

Oops. Someone mentioned brevity...

8/09/2005 08:45:00 AM  
Blogger Dave H said...

Dymphna, most of what you say makes complete sense. The case of c4 is sort of unique, I actually enjoyed most of his rants, but he has made a few posts where he demonstrated absolute rationality. This makes me think he is a pure troll trying to incite counter rants to a point where the site encounters bandwidth difficulties. W has already had problems in that regard.

8/09/2005 09:01:00 AM  
Blogger Dave H said...

Heres a thought. Could there be a box in this location (where I am trying to post) which judges another post to be a troll? Then on accumulating a sufficient number of negatives the offending poll could be automatically deleted. No repeat votes by the same poster. Ignoring trolls works fine, but it seems to take too much discipline to be consistently effective. Such a system would also tend to decrease replies to the troll, the chances are the reply will soon refer to an empty hole.

8/09/2005 09:15:00 AM  
Blogger Aristides said...

"Here at least We shall be free."

I regret that I missed the event that caused this introspection. I see that the "Gaza" thread has comments eliminated? From the comments here it seems the crime was Cedarford's?

Cedarford has a specific tick, of course, yet I never felt his anti-semitic tourette's would instigate anything administrative. The crescendo must have been something to behold.

Alas, it is only proper for Wretchard to watch carefully over his domain. To us our posts are inconsequential, yet they participate in a specific way in branding Belmont Club, with much value added or diminished by our conduct. Looking to Wretchard, we should follow the maestro in setting our tone.

That said, I do hope we can continue to comment here freely. Even the worst and most inaccurate statements can offer definition, if only negatively, for my own thoughts. Here's hoping.

8/09/2005 09:25:00 AM  
Blogger Marcus Aurelius said...

Baron B,

This reminds me of a flamefest I kicked off years ago on soc.culture.filipino. There was a poster who was making coments that seemed like they came from one troll who had not posted to SCF in quite some time. I mentioned this fact and mentioned the troll by name. Well, what do you know that was all it took to resurect the trol and a huge flamefest commenced.

8/09/2005 09:28:00 AM  
Blogger Hanba'al said...

W.
In my way of thinking, I weight your post's value at 60% and the commenters'value around 20%. The extra value from comment section gives me incentive to come here often and I know how to moderate the commenters myself by establish my own rules.

Some people just by the name alone automatically triggered my censor and I hardly care what they said for the benefits if ever existed hardly worth the BS I have to endure.

For others, I confine my limit span to comments of length of 4 paragraphs max, because either the ranters need their own blog to expand their ideas or they really don't know what the hell they are talking about.

You comment section is pretty civil and very valuable relative to other blogs I frequent despite few minor problems, but I don't think it degrades the performance of your site. However if you want to strike toward a better comment section, you might ask a few volunteers to help you out in monitoring the trolls and the spams, or some nudge warnings toward some useless or ad-hominem posts. Other than that, there is nothing you can do about people self-moderating themselves, because if they do, they wouln't post such non-sense at the first place.

8/09/2005 09:30:00 AM  
Blogger Baron Bodissey said...

Marcus,

Those of us who endured it for so long made a compact not to mention its name, since it seemed to search on the name to find counter-troll commenters, whom it would then torment with yet more trolling. People who were commenters here then: remember the letter D followed by the letter S (I hope that is not enough of an invocation to invite it back!).

It is extremely difficult to discourage people from responding to trolls. I tried and tried last year to dissuade them, but some good folks could simply not control themselves. It invariably makes the problem worse.

8/09/2005 09:39:00 AM  
Blogger Baron Bodissey said...

Lan Nguyen -- but where did the other 20% go? Is it maybe for Wretchard's links to other sites?

8/09/2005 09:41:00 AM  
Blogger Rem870 said...

I take it a troll is a bad thing, but today is the first that I have heard the term. Can someone give me a decent definition?

Also, the last I viewed the 'Gaza'strip, the comments were only 5 or 6 deep. What happened there?

8/09/2005 09:41:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

i do apologize to the group if either I fed the trolls or I am one...

I hate to see pure anti-zionist (love the PC way to say "i hate jews") posts go unresponded...

8/09/2005 09:49:00 AM  
Blogger Baron Bodissey said...

Definition of a troll (aka "sitepest"):
1. Resorts repeatedly to ad-hominem attacks, name-calling, etc.
2. Is never, ever persuaded by anyone's arguments. Not even once. Doesn't even say "Hmm... you've got a point there."
3. When cornered, changes the subject. Example, "Well, Jefferson owned slaves! So there!"
4. Impugns the motives of those with whom it disagrees, while assuming the pristine intentions of its own side.

Summed up, a troll does not comment in good faith. And, like the Supreme Court and pornography, I know it when I see it.

8/09/2005 10:05:00 AM  
Blogger Pierre Legrand said...

Why worry if someone is offended? Being offended is not the end of the world. Tolerance is a blessing that all of us need to learn.

Pierre

8/09/2005 10:06:00 AM  
Blogger Rick Ballard said...

pork,

Wretchard says:

"To appeal to everyone to avoid making comments which a reasonable person may consider to be anti-Arab, anti-Semitic etc. or comments of a scatological nature."

I'm at a bit of a loss as to what an appropriate response then becomes when the Thorazine dosage is insufficient. Other than just scrolling past. You do raise the most difficult issue. I can agree to play by the rules and you can agree to play by the rules but some are incapable of understanding what a "reasonable person" actually might be. And some are all to well aware of the rules of taqiyah and possess sufficient ability to engage in it with some skill.

You owe me no apology.

8/09/2005 10:13:00 AM  
Blogger Hanba'al said...

Baron said...

Lan Nguyen -- but where did the other 20% go? Is it maybe for Wretchard's links to other sites?


My weight is quality base so it can't be 100% because if it is then it will become an absolute truth.

The comment section springs and evolves from W.'s thought and is a subset to the total quality of the site. That doesn't mean the commenters are less quality than W's at their own thoughts, for some of them at their own places could achieve the same quality as W's in my weighting system. It is just to mean they are the supporting actors and actresses for a potential Oscar winner.

8/09/2005 10:19:00 AM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

One of my complaints about posters who abuse Wretchard's hospitality are the really really L O N G posts that run on and on and on. Cedarford does that all the time. Someone else who was quoting Biblical citations has recently been doing the same. This *should* comes under polite self-censorship, but perhaps if the person is a loony-toon to begin with, maybe asking them to self-censor a little bit pie-in-the-sky.

For me, anything that's more than about three paragraphs long (and you should know internally how long that is) should be taken outside and discussed on your own blog, or by private e-mail. If you don't have anyone coming to your blog to read your stuff, maybe it's because what you write is too long-winded and tedious. And that does *not* mean it's OK for you to bring your long-winded tediousness some place else to force people to read whatever it is you think you have to say.

8/09/2005 10:29:00 AM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

RE: being a troll, it's someone who is not posting in good faith, too. I've seen a particularly pernicious troll say, "Oh, yeah? Well if you say 'thus', then I'll just say 'that'" which is an out-and-out admission that the entity is merely picking at scabs, and that any scab will do, so long as it thinks sooner or later it may be able to draw blood.

8/09/2005 10:36:00 AM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

However, I don't think that saying something like "Bomb Mecca" should be grounds for dismissal. Seems like a perfectly valid argument to me.

8/09/2005 10:37:00 AM  
Blogger PresbyPoet said...

This is a typical commons problem. Some people just don't know they have too many sheep.

It is impossible to please everyone. A sermon I may find wonderful, my neighbor may find offensive. Our minister said a church was more than a social group like the elks. One person complained he was attacking the elks. Sometimes you don't get it.

An example from LGF on not how to do it. The latest PCUSA stupidity about divestment in companies that help Israel, led to cheapshots at members of PCUSA, along the lines, anyone who hasn't left is stupid. That is the kinds of comments to avoid. A better way would be to ask why someone might stay.

I enjoy the comments here. It is an amazing group of people, lead by someone with some amazing posts. I expect soon to hear the secretary of state speak of the third conjecture, and everyone know what it is.

Possible improvements:
First, a way of saving important topic and comment streams to a place like the lounge. As a permanent fixture, where comments could be encouraged on a long term basis. Extraneous comments could be pruned to focus on the meat. This may be a way of encouraging more thoughtful responses, rather than just rapid fire banter.

Second, number posts if possible.

Third, the anchoress, labels her posts by category, that might be a way to organize some of the knowledge being built up here. We are like a library that just takes in books without a sorting system. We are a conversation, but a conversation with aspects of a library, a place to find knowledge.

Forth, trusted moderators could help prune trolls, and save Wretchard's time for writing wonderful posts.
Although, we seem to have a blessed minimum of trolls, and even those we have, actually seem to contribute.

Fifth, for those with actual money, use the tip jar. Keep the wolf from the door.

8/09/2005 10:53:00 AM  
Blogger Norman said...

I've no experience in anything that could afford a solid constructive comment to any of the topics that Wretchard has written about. I wish I did have some.

However, I have never had a problem with the trolling or other types of undesirable comments. I just scroll past, and keep on going.

I give this blog the highest value of any I read. I usually come here before I even look at Instapundit or Drudge.

Thanks,
Norm

8/09/2005 11:25:00 AM  
Blogger truepeers said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

8/09/2005 11:29:00 AM  
Blogger truepeers said...

Wretchard, you have every right to protect your site as you see fit, acting as ruthlessly or being as accomodating as necessary.

I'm not sure if I led C4 on to one last nasty that I didn't get a chance to read, or whether my own or other comments were part of the reason for the removal of the Gaza comments. If I'm responsible, I would like to know.

In any case, I think we have to accept a degree of antisemitism as the flip side to acknowledging the truth: Judaism is not just another religion, Israel not just another nation. Quite aside from the banal PC admissions that we are all different, we should reject the PC model where everyone is, in actual practice, reduced to a bland sameness in the right not to be offended. We must have some right to offend as a guarantee of our right to distinguish ourselves, which is fundamental to any culture that wants to do its job of keeping us alive. Of course, the thing is to learn how to be well distinguished and not just a resentful person overly reliant for his identity on what he resents.

Judaism attracts a lot of hostility because it was the first fully to articulate monotheism as a declarative concept, i.e. not just a name of god, but a definition of god (what Moses heard: "I am what I am") and this discovery of a universal truth (that, conceptually, god is a paradoxical sign) by a particular person/people is what we must remember even at the cost of stupid antisemitism. Jewish particularism grates on those who come after. But coming to terms with the fact that someone always has to go first is important to mental health, and we only get there by working through our resentment of our models, and understanding the roles of those who go second and third.... Otherwise we destroy our models, just as a lot of people are trying to destroy the idea of nationhood and republican democracy in this world.

I may be guilty of certain fast and easy ascriptions to the arab or moslem world, though I try to avoid this. And I may go on at too much length under the impression that certain anthropological ideas are key to understanding our global conflict. All this can be improved, but it takes more than a vague and general warning. Without it involving a lot of time or energy, perhaps we need you or a few other duly appointed responsibles (some have more time than money to donate) doing a bit more calling out from time to time. Name names, listen to the reaction of the readers, and ban the repeat offenders.

many thanks for your wonderful site

8/09/2005 11:34:00 AM  
Blogger anybudee said...

That's it NahnCee,

Let it out. It's good for you.

Yes, I'm the one who abused the world by putting N.T. scriptures in a previous thread. They were a direct response to a question.

It was I believe it was my longest comment - 36 lines of print. Probably too long.

Interestingly enough, YOUR comment (3:22?) was 46 lines. Others, twice as long. Hmmmmm. Methinks the lady doth protest overmuch.


But that's OK. It absolutely PC that censorship and disparagement of christian viewpoint. Huh TC?

I noticed that anti-muslim and anti-semitic comments are frowned upon. Were anti-christian comments simply understood to be included or maybe they are fair game? How very Hahvahd of you.


I've listened to pork chop throw any number of insults at Jesus (pagan etc.) and His followers. Things that if C4 were to say, he be excoriated, and rightfully so.

I guess it depends on whose ox is being gored, huh?

8/09/2005 11:41:00 AM  
Blogger Baron Bodissey said...

Truepeers -- Unfortunately, Blogger does not allow the banning of commenters. Wretchard would have to delete each comment individually (as he did with those of The-Troll-Who-Must-Not-Be-Invoked), forbid comments on an individual post (as he seems to have done on the "Gaza" post), or eliminate comments entirely on all posts.

So I guess we'd better behave.

8/09/2005 11:58:00 AM  
Blogger Fernand_Braudel said...

If Cedarford was the culprit, it is no great loss to purge his ramblings.

I BLOCKADED him months ago.

Def- BLOCKADED:
Neither read his comment, nor respond to it, nor respond to anyone else responding to it.

Note: BLOCKADED must be capitalized.

8/09/2005 12:07:00 PM  
Blogger Marcus Aurelius said...

Halaoscan offers more feature-rich comenting and trackback. You can can ban commenters with it.

I use it on my blog, granted I don't get anywhere near the traffic or comments but Haloscan commenting appears to be an improvement over Blogger commenting.

8/09/2005 12:13:00 PM  
Blogger truepeers said...

Anybuddee,

I think you're right. Calling Christians pagans is a conceptual error and somewhat offensive. But there are problems with legislating against stupidity when so many people don't know why, e.g., anti-Christianity is stupid. Free discussion is our best hope for freedom, though it takes patience and time. As I say, it's better to be a little offended than resort to PC tactics where no one can stand out because no one can be offended.

Baron, I see. thanks, but i imagine this situation would not stop Wretchard from finding some people he could trust and sharing his administrative powers with them. Then it would be easier to remove repeat offenders or even first-time trolls as part of the administrators' ordinary blog reading. As long as the responsibles are known and willing to briefly explain themselves - through reference to some code of conduct - if need be. Behaving ourselves is best, but perhaps we need more feedback than most of us probably get. If there is a code, then people would have some grounds to remind each other where they are stepping out of line. But of course it is near impossible to satisfactorily define things like hate speech. But as long as you are not a court of law, but just a court of opinion, the line can be flexible and imposed by rough consensus. Though it is just as legitimate for the blog owner to lay down the law if he wishes.

8/09/2005 12:19:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

Were anti-christian comments simply understood to be included or maybe they are fair game? How very Hahvahd of you.

I've listened to pork chop throw any number of insults at Jesus (pagan etc.) and His followers. Things that if C4 were to say, he be excoriated, and rightfully so.

I guess it depends on whose ox is being gored, huh?

we'll the one weird thing is that christians MUST understand, that The Jewish POV on G-d is the original monothiestic point of view, for me to insult jesus or the NT is because my group was there...

I am a Jew, and as such, our beliefs are what are being MISTRANSLATED into the koran or the "old test", it's our RIGHT to comment on other's beliefs that we are being told is OUR correct belief..

so when it comes to jesus, it's simple he was my cousin BEFORE he was your god and it's the JEWISH people's messiah, not the CHristian's messiah...

8/09/2005 12:24:00 PM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Everything is always changing, either ascending or descending, a-build or in decay. A year ago, there were far fewer "thought piece" comments on this blog, and thus it didn't seem as though falling into a long string of idle chit-chat would drive away the particular types of comments that make a comment-feature valuable in the first place: Those expressed thoughts that aspire to become attractive features of the whole. But things change. This site has obviously grown in import and influence; there's so many sharp folks writing in here now that the whole will be more valuable as a 'read' if we do follow the host's suggestion and self-edit a bit. To follow Wretchard's suggestion, the practice of the whole audience would be no different than each individual's presumably familiar practice of editing his/her own posts for interest, brevity, punch, topicality and readability. And--crucially important to the argument--I think I have carpal-tunnel syndrome, and can only manage a few brief remarks anyway.

8/09/2005 12:25:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

I think you're right. Calling Christians pagans is a conceptual error and somewhat offensive.

From the jewish point of view, the ones that gave you "monothiesm" worship of a human as god is pagan, sorry we believed this for over 1000 yrs before paul had his bar mitzvah.....

as for offensive... take the cross, please...

it's a roman torture machine.......

the cool thing? it's the 1st time in 1700 yrs I can speak honestly about jesus worship as g-d and promised messiah and no one is going to burn me at a stake... how cool

8/09/2005 12:28:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

I've never complained about another poster.

But, like Muslims, Zionists use their classic method of attempting to intimidate or stifle voices they disagree with. Though Muslims take it a step further by killing those who disagree with them, the Zionist tactics of whining to moderators or demanding newspapers not run stories or letters critical of Israel are also inamicable to open discourse in a Democracy.

Zionists are also somewhat unique in their regular use of lies and myths over the years that have not stood up to scrutiny, but get repeated anyways.

In the Gaza thread, the poster that uses the religiously offensive handle "Porkrinds for Allah" repeated the false claims of (1)"land legally gained in defensive wars", (2)Balfour gave ALL of Palestine to the Jews,(3)Gaza doesn't have to be given up because the Zionists "already gave up 99% of land they were entitled to". (In fact, Palestine is now split 78% sovereign Israel Proper and the other 22% left is still occupied and colonized)

All claims quickly debunked. But there is a reason why all but one country, America, has peeled off supporting Israel over the years and that reason is not blind hatred, but Israel's obstinant refusal to address the refugee problem and it's creeping colonization activities over the years. Even the US is on record with 1967's UN Res 242 as opposing the massive land and water grabs that Israel subsequently did.

In one sense, the Zionists and their American backers have been very sucessful in America in one aspect. Despite selling our secrets to the Societs and China, it's being the 4th largest nuclear power, despite consuming almost half of our foreign aid on it's well-off inhabitants, and use of Jim Crow system enforcing Jewish supremacy - Zionists have introduced a strong meme into America that any criticism of Israel is equivalent to "bias".

This meme is absent in other countries, even in Israel itself.

So while Americans are free to openly criticize KSA, the KSA lobby and any other nation - China, France, Russia, Egypt, Mexico, etc. ---Zionists regularly both dispense their false myths and seek to police and supress media when criticism of Israel emerges.

This is hardly an abstract issue, because this is a real war with real Americans dying and real hundreds of billions being spent in the war that we wish at some point end on favorable terms to America. And we cannot achieve realistic solutions if debate on a critical aspect of foreign policy, central to this war and our ability to have allies in Europe, Asia, and the Muslim world is suppressed in the American public and in Congress.

And as Zionists are embroiled in another spy scandal, though the secrets are far less damaging than say Israel's sale of our Patriot missile defense system to China....The AIPAC indictments are a reminder - once again - that Israel is not our 51st state and Israel's interests should never trump America's - no matter how much money AIPAC hands out to our politicians.

One way or another, America is now joining the countries where criticism of Israel is allowed. The long era of Zionists being able to quash open debate regarding Israel is coming to an end. And we are learning from that, in not letting the radical Muslims use Zionist-style tactics to suppress criticism of their tactics under claimed "hate-speech" grievances.

8/09/2005 12:28:00 PM  
Blogger George M Weinert V said...

The Comments serve a purpose and it's WORKING:

In the Name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful
(the Vengeful, the Cruel and the QUEER!)


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE


VA MUSLIM ATTACKED BY MEN SHOUTING RACIST SLURS
Pregnant woman in Islamic dress assaulted, called 'terrorist b*tch'


(WASHINGTON, D.C., 8/9/05) - A prominent national Islamic civil rights and advocacy group today called on law enforcement authorities to treat an assault this morning on a Virginia Muslim woman as a hate crime.

The Washington-based Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) reported that a 23-year-old Muslim woman, who is 8 months pregnant and wears and Islamic head scarf, said she was out for her morning walk in Arlington, Va., when three white men in a pick-up truck began screaming anti-Muslim and racist slurs at her. According to the victim, the men shouted, "You terrorist b*tch, go back to your country. . .You n*gger b*tch." (The woman is African-American.)

The truck drove away and then returned as the woman continued on her walk. One of the men, who was wearing military-style clothing, allegedly got out of the vehicle and began shoving the woman and preventing her from moving away. During the assault, he shouted, "You terrorist b*tch. . . We're going to kick you're a*s. . . you're nothing." The other men then called the attacker back to the truck and it sped off.

"We believe these types of incidents are the direct result of the growing level of virulent anti-Muslim rhetoric Americans are exposed to on the Internet, in newspaper editorial pages and on radio talk shows," said CAIR Communications Director Ibrahim Hooper. "Our nation's political and religious leaders must begin to challenge Islamophobic hate-mongers."

Hooper noted that a Washington, D.C., radio talk show host was recently suspended without pay for stating repeatedly that "Islam is a terrorist organization." He added that an Illinois man was arrested just last Friday for threatening to bomb CAIR's Capitol Hill headquarters.

In July, a national council of American Muslim religious scholars issued a "fatwa," or formal Islamic legal ruling, against terrorism and religious extremism. That fatwa has been endorsed by some 200 Islamic groups, leaders and institutions. SEE: http://www.cair.com/includes/Anti-TerrorList.pdf

CAIR, America's largest Muslim civil liberties group, has 31 offices and chapters nationwide and in Canada. Its mission is to enhance the understanding of Islam, encourage dialogue, protect civil liberties, empower American Muslims, and build coalitions that promote justice and mutual understanding.

To read CAIR's Mission, Vision Statement and Core Principles, go to: http://www.cair-net.org/default.asp?Page=About


- END -


CONTACT: Ibrahim Hooper, 202-488-8787 or 202-744-7726, E-Mail: ihooper@cair-net.org; Rabiah Ahmed, 202-488-8787 or 202-439-1441, E-Mail: rahmed@cair-net.org

NOTE: CAIR offers an e-mail list designed to be a window to the American Muslim community. Subscribers to the list, called CAIR-NET, receive news releases and other materials dealing with American Muslim positions on issues of importance to our society.

To SUBSCRIBE to or UNSUBSCRIBE from CAIR-NET, go to: http://cair.biglist.com/cair-net/

GET OUT NOW!

YOU ARE NOT WANTED HERE!

GET OUT OF AMERICAN WHILE YOU CAN!

God Bless America,
George M Weinert V
http://americanjihad.blogspot.com/

8/09/2005 12:35:00 PM  
Blogger George M Weinert V said...

Actually - how can we NOT offend some folks in War time?

WAR IS THE GREATEST OFFENSE - in case you forgot - PEOPLE GET KILLED@

Isn't it rather abusd to discuss these matters and expect someone to NOT be 'offended?

God Bless America,
George M Weinert V
http://americanjihad.blogspot.com/

8/09/2005 12:37:00 PM  
Blogger Aristides said...

Is it me, or has this plea for moderation pulled an Uroboros?

8/09/2005 12:50:00 PM  
Blogger iGout said...

It's your clubhouse and your rules. But this is one of the few places where certain subjects that dare not speak their name can be openly discussed.

8/09/2005 12:51:00 PM  
Blogger anybudee said...

Guys,

Don't get me wrong. I don't mind the rough and tumble. I'm certainly capable of it. But if pork (or anyone else) needs to throw insults, if for nothing else other than to see the quality of another one's love, then I'm your boy. I still love Jews, even tho many of them hate me. That's the deal I signed onto.

And the back and forth? That's what kept Plato, Jeremiah, Paul and Christopher Freakin' Hitchens sharp, fer cryin out loud.

No. It's the double standard that's REALLY offensive. In our schools, universities and houses of government all manner of things are tolerated (nay, encouraged) except the BIBLE. It seems to be the ONLY thing that's off limits. To the ACLU, christianity is the locus of evil in this world. Why is that?

Someone said the US is rapidly becoming a country they didn't recognize. I would say that would be ditto for Washington, Lincoln and Kennedy. Now tell me I'm lyin.

8/09/2005 12:55:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

c4: I've never complained about another poster.

But, like Muslims, Zionists use their classic method of attempting to intimidate or stifle voices they disagree with. Though Muslims take it a step further by killing those who disagree with them, the Zionist tactics of whining to moderators or demanding newspapers not run stories or letters critical of Israel are also inamicable to open discourse in a Democracy.

wow... sorry to burst your bubble, never complained about you...

c4: Zionists are also somewhat unique in their regular use of lies and myths over the years that have not stood up to scrutiny, but get repeated anyways.

yes, once again, truth rears it's ugly head.. the jews are warriors.. giant land grabbers...


c4: In the Gaza thread, the poster that uses the religiously offensive handle "Porkrinds for Allah" repeated the false claims of (1)"land legally gained in defensive wars", (2)Balfour gave ALL of Palestine to the Jews,(3)Gaza doesn't have to be given up because the Zionists "already gave up 99% of land they were entitled to". (In fact, Palestine is now split 78% sovereign Israel Proper and the other 22% left is still occupied and colonized)

wow, excellent rewriting! such a skill!


c4: All claims quickly debunked.

no, but if it makes you feel good, keep saying it over and over again in front of a mirror.. "the MUST believe"....

c4:But there is a reason why all but one country, America, has peeled off supporting Israel over the years and that reason is not blind hatred, but Israel's obstinant refusal to address the refugee problem and it's creeping colonization activities over the years.

naw, the one word is OIL....

c4: Even the US is on record with 1967's UN Res 242 as opposing the massive land and water grabs that Israel subsequently did.

Massive land grabs? in Israel? it's 1% of the arab world, and smaller than new jersey, yes size is relative, i tell my wife my 6 inchs is a foot almost 2 times a week... still dont make it massive..

C4: In one sense, the Zionists and their American backers have been very sucessful in America in one aspect. Despite selling our secrets to the Societs and China, it's being the 4th largest nuclear power, despite consuming almost half of our foreign aid on it's well-off inhabitants, and use of Jim Crow system enforcing Jewish supremacy - Zionists have introduced a strong meme into America that any criticism of Israel is equivalent to "bias".

1/2 our foreign aid.. yep it's all how you paint the picture... 2 billion a year is foreign aid, our 200 billion in iraq aint, nor is our 100 billion a year to nato, nor is the billions we spend on egypt, yep the jews get half...

again, c4 distorts and mispaints...

C4: -Zionists regularly both dispense their false myths and seek to police and supress media when criticism of Israel emerges.

wow, my zog meeting warned me this would happen...

c4: And as Zionists are embroiled in another spy scandal, though the secrets are far less damaging than say Israel's sale of our Patriot missile defense system to China....The AIPAC indictments are a reminder - once again - that Israel is not our 51st state and Israel's interests should never trump America's - no matter how much money AIPAC hands out to our politicians.

Yes, aipac needs to not just give cash, it should do what the saudis do..

c4: America is now joining the countries where criticism of Israel is allowed.

I was sad to see the law against israel criticism not be renewed, dam that ZOG aint what it used to be...

c4: The long era of Zionists being able to quash open debate regarding Israel is coming to an end. And we are learning from that, in not letting the radical Muslims use Zionist-style tactics to suppress criticism of their tactics under claimed "hate-speech" grievances.

yes, the fear "zionist style" tactics... folks zionists are evil, they will invite you over, give you some soup, feed you a fresh bagel, all to trip you up! BE WARNED EVIL ZIONIST TACTICS at work!!!!

8/09/2005 01:06:00 PM  
Blogger Common Cents said...

I think that everyone should be forced to say something nice about the people they are criticising.

For example:

Islamicists blowing up people is evil but those guys have great beards.

Liberals are double plus bad but their girls are easy.

8/09/2005 01:11:00 PM  
Blogger Ash said...

Pork rinds for allah wrote:

"c4: Zionists are also somewhat unique in their regular use of lies and myths over the years that have not stood up to scrutiny, but get repeated anyways.

yes, once again, truth rears it's ugly head.. the jews are warriors.. giant land grabbers..."

So, am I hearing you correctly Pork, Zionists and Jews are one and the same?

8/09/2005 01:11:00 PM  
Blogger anybudee said...

pork

Is that the best you can do to answer his charges? Attempted ridicule and sniggers just reinforce what he said. That HIS point!

I don't agree with all he said but your answers might be the most telling thing of all.

8/09/2005 01:21:00 PM  
Blogger PresbyPoet said...

I see we are doing our best to try to show exactly what we shouldn't do.

What can be most valuable about this place is that we come from some wildly different backgrounds, yet have a crazy unity. Some of us are atheists, some are born again christians, some are Moses's child, some I don't have a clue. Some don't have a clue. I love you all.

We need to remember we are guests in Wretchard's living room, and we don't want him to have to ask who let the dogs out.

To have a place we can speak the truth honestly, and not waste time demolishing straw men, is important.

8/09/2005 01:35:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

C4 has made numerous ACCURATE points. The Israelis HAVE taken US military secrets and dispersed them to the Chinese. The Chicom new J10 aircraft is a direct ripoff of US technology. That is right as rain. Pollard WAS an Israeli spy working in the US. It would be prudent to believe there are others.
The Israelis are also one of our allies in the War on Terror.
As Ronnie Reagan would say,
"Trust but Verify"

8/09/2005 01:48:00 PM  
Blogger truepeers said...

If the essence of Judaism is exodus, or freedom, isn't there something to be said for just letting the Christians, and their secular followers, go?

At the risk of going OT, a quick comment in response to Pork Rinds:

worship of a human as god is pagan, sorry we believed this for over 1000 yrs before paul had his bar mitzvah...

It seems to me a Jew, having respect for his peoples great contribution to humanity of a form of historical consciousness, "narrative monotheism", might expect that some people will take up the narrative in ways he would not approve. Approve or not, showing respect for his own tradition would entail acknowledging that Christianity makes some new departures in attempting to understand the God-Man relationship, taking the narrative in a new direction that, like it or not, is clearly not into a world that is much like the old pagan world, however much a certain aspect of Christian symbolism may look pagan. Looks can deceive. The difference between entering into a knowledge of sacrifice, as opposed to a practice of sacrifice, is essential to distinguish. A knowledge of sacrifice may entail playing with the imagery of sacrifice without returning to primitive times.

I am not a scholar of these things, but I have been told that early Rabbinic Judaism witnessed an awful lot of speculation on whether divinity could take multiple forms. It was only with the emergence of Christianity and its own speculations into the trinity that a strict monotheist doctrine gelled in Jewish thought. hence there is on the conceptual level some mutual dependency - e.g. self-definition in opposition to the other - between the faiths that would be worth exploring.

From a secular pov, the great advantage of the trinity is that it is a more sophisticated approximation of the tripartite, or three-step nature of representation (three steps because representation is an event, unfolding in time) than is a strictly transcendental monotheism. Judaism affirms the unfigurabiliy of g-d, Christianity explores this paradox in a way that brings some new understanding into the nature of representation, an understanding I won't go into here.

The historical influence of Christianity has been so obviously - to my mind - much more anti-sacrificial and secularizing than anything else, that to call it pagan is just an indicator that you don't know what to do with the fact that Christians make use of the symbolism of human sacrifice in a religion that has taken humanity as a whole further away from human sacrifice. This has given a lot of people trouble and there are a lot of sophisticated explanations out there you might reference before making simple statements about Chritianity divinizing men, which it does and it doesn't. It plays ambiguously on this theme, to a secularizing, not paganizing, effect. No doubt if Christianity had never emerged, Judaism would have carried the anti-sacrificial banner to humanity, but that's not what happened. None of which is to deny Rinds a right to be pissed at how Jews have been treated historically.

8/09/2005 01:50:00 PM  
Blogger Vercingetorix said...

Wretchard, perhaps a disclaimer would be in order to set the tone of comments in the margins of your page. This will ensure that A) you have advanced warning that punishment may follow (deletion of posts) and B) to check guilt by association (Wretchard does not endorse these comments).

Trolls, far left-wing, far right-wing, insane, and schtoopid would like to challenge, if not check, discourse. A Poster Who Shall Never Be Named, but was Delinguently Shallow, would fit this description. And commentary is one of the selling points of your blog, so I would not like to see you get rid of them.

Example:
1) Posters are advised that commentary should be professional and discreet, use links where available, and avoid profanities. Commenters are advised against submissions that are personally directed, such as racist or antisemetic speech on penalty of deletion.
2)The Belmontclub does not neccessarily endorse any commentary.
3)Commenters are advised to not engage [trolls, and I know I have a plank in my eye the size of a Boeing].

8/09/2005 01:54:00 PM  
Blogger anybudee said...

Sorry pres,

I haven't seen one reference to defecation in this whole living room. (well, maybe there was one back there..)

This IS democracy. Possible the last bastion of it. If Wretchard can't handle the tall grass, then he should stay on the porch. He was trained in the U.S. He should know that THIS is one of the reasons why we're the last, best hope for humanity.

Same for pork rinds (and others) He rips anybody personally and gets a PASS. That sucks.

Cedarford just laid down a challenge to you, pork, and I think his points should be legitimately answered. Now do it, or you got nothin'

C4, he got you on the foreign aid thing. Half is blatant hyperbole and you know it. Recant or you're full of crap too. (oops, scatology again)

8/09/2005 01:55:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

The Jews have faired better, historicly, then the North American Indians. The Jews, at least, have their own little country. No such luck for the Indig Americans. No, a Casino does not a Nation make.
The Kurds and the Armenians have each been treated as poorly by the World as the Jews have.
The Jews have no monopoly on persecution. They do have more influence on the MSM than any of the other persecuted minorities of the World

8/09/2005 01:58:00 PM  
Blogger Charles said...

Listen friends, and mark my words in this moment and this hour--
God is jealous for his name for his name is jealous.

Nor is this a charming flower to set before a man
nor one of his commands.

Yet, without Jesus, this is more than we can love as we desire peace,
and less than we can know as we desire joy.

For the sacred fire
that makes us liars--
I mean, that separates speech from dreams,
and separates our flesh from the future--
is God’s power manifested.
So, in the year and the hour-- for his sake, invest your desire in Jesus.
Follow his holy fire for right now. Right now he intercedes for us in heaven!

Some will say we are people of the way.
We are people of the way.
We praise his holy name Yahweh.
I am who I am.
I cause things to be.
I am the first cause of creation.
We praise his holy name Yahweh.


And say “Thank you Jesus for your precious blood--
better, so much better than the blood of Abel.

8/09/2005 01:58:00 PM  
Blogger luminary said...

Common cents, I’m going to give it a try.
The bad first.

Those guys with the turbans make me nervous, whenever I sit next to a guy wearing one on a flight, I try and move to a escape hatch seat, never know, he could have one of those lunch-box nukes in that wrap.

I think turbines a rather cool, I would love to ride through Chicago on my motorbike wearing one.
They look like they would be a cool attached pillow as well.
----------------------------------
I was stabbed in my sleep (with my new craftsman screwdriver)
by an Iranian woman I dated briefly.

She was absolutely gorgeous.
----------------------------------

People have kids out of a desire to be entertained by midget clowns' - me
'the only people for me are the mad ones, the ones who are mad to live, mad to talk, mad to be saved, desirous of everything at the same time, the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace things, but burn like fabulous roman candles exploding like spiders across the stars and in the middle you see the blue center light pop and everybody goes "AWWW!" - Jack Kerouac
Hmm? A thread still on course.

8/09/2005 02:11:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

8/09/2005 02:24:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

I have to admit this religious debate drags on these threads though. What does it profit us? Whereas through this conflict the West is generally re-awakening to the whole Islamic world, of which it thought rarely, I think, only a few years ago, this Jew/Christian debate does seem ancillary to the overall discussion in view of the general comity of the religions epitomized by our country. Not that it ought to be banned, but it does seem to generate the longest posts now for what seems the past couple months. Maybe merely imposing a word-limit on posts would achieve the verbal and intellectual streamlining people seem generally interested in, and encourage good faith w/r/t making as consice statements as possible? Always a useful exercise, at any rate.

8/09/2005 02:26:00 PM  
Blogger luminary said...

Truepeers.
I've learned a great deal from you.
Thanks.

8/09/2005 02:34:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

post #70 in the 'Rest In Pieces' thread is just what W is speaking of. George M Weinert V goes on and on to the point that even I had to collapse it.
Even doug was taken aback by it.

8/09/2005 02:39:00 PM  
Blogger rightsvault said...

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8/09/2005 02:40:00 PM  
Blogger Aristides said...

I second Dan. Truepeers and I got into a tangential ontological debate, which I am sure not too many people wanted to read here, and we took it elsewhere.

This does not mean you can't argue from first principles, belief, and all that, but when the religious gauntlet gets thrown down, as it occasionally will, kindly step outside and work out your differences. Unless, of course, it is pertinent to Wretchard's post.

Maybe I suggest this because I don't have a dog in that fight, but it seems the polite way to go. The answers to the universe don't have to be discovered just on this blog. That's what a community is for.

'Rat,

I noticed that too. Made me cringe.

8/09/2005 02:42:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-Iran-Nuclear.html

HA - this Iranian thing is going the way of Munich, and it would be a hilariously apt tactic to deny Ahmadinejad his visa into the country on the grounds of his participation in the Iranian Revolutionary hit squads. I like it. Let Phase III commence, sooner rather then later.

8/09/2005 02:43:00 PM  
Blogger truepeers said...

If the religious or anthropological debate has a place it is because we are fighting a war that is all about religion. However, I would acknowledge the need for concision if that's what people want. Some problems are best struggled with until they are reducible to short statements; some questions, however, need big books. Someone has to decide what people want, if only creative chaos, or provide feedback mechanisms for a stronger consensus to emerge. Blogs can be good at many things, but maybe not at all things at once.

8/09/2005 02:43:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

I've always wanted Blogger to have branched thread blogs, so people can choose to read/write about their interests w/o bothering others not interested.

8/09/2005 02:46:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

There used to be a bunch of free ones, Blogger is now God of the blogverse I guess, so must tend to my prayers.

8/09/2005 02:47:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

I wouldn't go THAT far 'Rat: I was temporarily stunned but made a reasonably strong "comeback," I thought.

8/09/2005 02:49:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

truepeers
As the President and the rest of the US Government repeatedly tells US that we ARE NOT in a religious war and we ARE NOT in a Clash of Civilizations. We are, they tell US, in a WAR on TERROR. Which, in all reality, is nonsensical, as terror is but a tactic.
It all goes back to a lack of clarity in this entire affair.

8/09/2005 03:01:00 PM  
Blogger Tony said...

Dang! Wretchard is the only one taking his advice: try to keep from commenting more than twice on the same thread (myself included)

8/09/2005 03:04:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

8/09/2005 03:07:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Dick Turban is a jerk,
but I like Turk's Turban Squash.

8/09/2005 03:07:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Tony,
Isn't this a discussion on discussions, not a regular topic?
---
(We get to see other's opinions before they are no longer expressed.)

8/09/2005 03:09:00 PM  
Blogger Aristides said...

truepeers,

It just hit me that this thread is a great example of emergent norms. An ethic is being generated amongst the group.

Whatever we come up with will be tested against reality, and if it fails, a new ethic will emerge.

Interesting (at least to me).

8/09/2005 03:15:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

Zionists and Jews are one and the same?

mostly but not exclusively...

8/09/2005 03:17:00 PM  
Blogger Tony said...

Doug,

Yes, a discussion about discussions, that's what we're having. Reminds me of writing about writing, which is easier than actually writing.

Gregory Bateson wrote about something similar in a series of "Metalogues" which he puts in the form of discussions with his daughter. Check it out:

"DAUGHTER: Talking about talking about talking. Cosy. So this has turned into an example of logical types, all piled up. The otter story is a story about metamessages, and the stories of you growing up in a positivistic household are about learning -- because it was in thinking about learning and learning to learn that you began to realize the importance of the logical types. Messages about messages, learning about learning. I must say, even though the logic boys say they have new and better models of logical types that you don't take account of, you get a lot of mileage -- a lot of insight -- out of using them, when almost nobody else does.
But, Daddy, can you just go along at the top of the pile? I don't think you can talk about talking about talking without talking, and I mean talking about something specific, something solid and real. If you tell a story about play when I'm not part of it, does that mean we're not playing?

FATHER: Playing we may be, but you're nipping at my heels in this particular game. Look, we're getting into a tangle. You have to distinguish the logical types in the words of our conversation from the overall structure in the communication, of which the verbal conversation is only part. But one thing you can be sure of is that the conversation isn't about "something solid and real." It can only be about ideas. No pigs, no coconut palms, no otters or puppy dogs. Just ideas of pigs and puppy dogs."

8/09/2005 03:18:00 PM  
Blogger Common Cents said...

Luminary

Thanks that's the funniest thing I've read in a long time. Makes me want to wear a turban and date Iranian women too.

8/09/2005 03:19:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

Anybudee said...
pork Is that the best you can do to answer his charges? Attempted ridicule and sniggers just reinforce what he said. That HIS point!

I answered many times clearly with website look ups to maps, i quoted actual square miles of lands at issue, i quoted actual UN resolutions with their actual not imposed words...

c4 cannot understand facts, so in the end i switched to humiliation for my "zionist tactics"...

c4 may be rational in many ways, but then dispenses the "zionist and their lies" (reminds me of Luther's "The Jews and their lies" ) myths, makes me believe there cannot be real communication with him...

8/09/2005 03:21:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

true: Approve or not, showing respect for his own tradition would entail acknowledging that Christianity makes some new departures in attempting to understand the God-Man relationship, taking the narrative in a new direction that, like it or not, is clearly not into a world that is much like the old pagan world,

I state: i respect all ethical people inspite of their stupid childish beliefs, including my own...

this does allow for less than monothiest peoples views, it's just not the view from Torah or the Jewish people.

8/09/2005 03:23:00 PM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

Winds of Change has nominated a Sheriff's Posse to help maintain the peace on that blog. If Wretchard doesn't want to be responsible for having to take all the time for deleting Those Who Should Be Deleted, perhaps he could name a posse, too. Seeing as how you have at least two posters on this particular thread who IMMEDIATELY did exactly what they had been asked politely not to do.

8/09/2005 03:26:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

....I am not a scholar of these things, but I have been told that early Rabbinic Judaism witnessed an awful lot of speculation on whether divinity could take multiple forms. It was only with the emergence of Christianity and its own speculations into the trinity that a strict monotheist doctrine gelled in Jewish thought. hence there is on the conceptual level some mutual dependency - e.g. self-definition in opposition to the other - between the faiths that would be worth exploring.

Not from what i read, check out "torah nation" (dont have the author handy) it tracks jewish thinking in bavel to israel at the time of shammai and hillel, the concept of a non-corporeal g-d goes back to abraham..

there are always jews that go astray from the basics however these are not regarded as authentic ie the saducees (painted ones - rejected the oral torah, temple cult, mislabeled as "pharisees" when actually hillel and shammai brought forth "rabbinic - non-temple cult teacher judiasm

8/09/2005 03:28:00 PM  
Blogger anybudee said...

risto and peers

As Wesley once said (no, the other one) "You have a truly dizzying intellect".

But we're all gonna drink the Iocaine. I hope you've built up a tolerance for it.

Got a little carried away here, but I don't apologize. I looked around early and saw that Doug was gone. I thought, "the purge has begun". Figured I'd better get my shots in before I'm sacked. 'Cause I knew I wouldn't last.

Funny how being faced with death (even blog death) makes one come alive.

I addressed you guys on this, 'cause who else around here understands that? I sure don't.

Anyway Doug's returned. So do I have to go back to just being a religious non-entity?

8/09/2005 03:34:00 PM  
Blogger Andrew Scotia said...

Well I see Doug,Charles and some others are still posting either non sequiters or tracts.

Wretchard, much as I hate to say this, I think it's time to shut down comments. Until there is more control. I know that is capitulation in a sense but, absent control and threads, Blogger is just not up to this.

It is inevitable, today, that open comment schemes will gradually decay. In the old days, when newsgroups were wonderful but you had to read them from the shell command prompt with a reader like nn, the educational centricity, difficulty and plain bleakness of the screen meant that the great unwashed and tertiary syphilitic ranters were excluded.

So, shut 'em down. The faithful will still read. If I had my way and the money, you'd be on Hosting Matters with software that worked and an admin assistant to do nothing but cull and block IP's.

But, it's an imperfect world. Now where's my Paxil?

8/09/2005 03:35:00 PM  
Blogger Blog ho said...

sure, i dig anal. who doesn't?

8/09/2005 03:41:00 PM  
Blogger Riz said...

Howdy, great blog, fun and informational.

I have a Ceiling Fan Pull And Knob site/blog. It covers Ceiling Fan Pull And Knob related stuff.

Come and see it when you get time.

8/09/2005 03:42:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

andrew
this ain't no religion, the 'faithful' are anything but.

8/09/2005 03:59:00 PM  
Blogger anybudee said...

pork rinds

Thanks for a reasoned response.

As Des pointed out, some of C4's points are valid. Some are just invective. But no more offensive than your invective. Just answering him with ridicule only underscores his valid points. (and makes his hyperventilating seem justified)

Some of his clearer concerns are shared by many, especially where I live. (think: real Red state) They cannot be passed off as anti-semitism. And doing so is intellectually infuriating and ultimately self-defeating.

I haven't heard all the back and forths. But it would be nice to hear a Jewish person answer reasonably to a disproportionate Jewish influence in our country.

Israel has many supporters among the christian community, I among them. They should not overplay their hand.

NahnCee

Kiss Teddy.

Your casting about for censorship shows your true quality.

8/09/2005 03:59:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

Anybudee -

C4, he got you on the foreign aid thing. Half is blatant hyperbole and you know it. Recant or you're full of crap too. (oops, scatology again)

No recant. Though I can be full of crap, as when I gave 4 excellent reasons months ago on Belmont why the fall of Fallujah marked the end of the Insurgency.

Half of our foreign aid does indeed get allocated for Israel thanks to that miserable piece of shit Jimmy Carter starting the annual welfare check to Israel and requiring payments to ANY adjacent nation that removes itself from being a threat to Isreal and instead agrees to become Israel's Partner in Peace, in return for billions a year for as long as Israel itself gets wheelbarrow loads of US taxpayer dollars.

Half of our foreign aid is predicated on Israel...direct aid or the "bundle packages" that go with it - 2 billion to Egypt as long as welfare also goes to Israel and Egypt annually agrees it is "at peace" with our "Special friend". Jordan got the same deal, though only half a billion a year.

That is why you will never see the powerful AIPAC demand Egypt lose it's IRS-collected transfer payment - because the ME foreign aid is bundled. Though, curiously, only our "Special Friend" has worked a special deal where only Israel, of all nations, gets all it's foreign aid up front, rather than in quarterly payments.

That gets them an extra nickel or so on each dollar they get compared to other countries. Not a massive deal, but indicative of the determination and business savvy at work to get special consideration.

And that aid does indeed exceed that US Gov't aid that black Africa, Latin America get put together.

In addition, over the years, Israel's allies have managed to
slip other nice deals into the Federal and even certain state budgets that are not counted as foreign aid. States granting waivers so Israeli companies can get contracts - something allowed to no other country. Federal grants to Israeli universities & firms doing research that actually is in competition with American firms and universities.

And, Israel has it's special exemption for private donors being able to write off contributions given right to agencies that are arms of the Israeli Gov't. A writeoff of another few hundred million a year in lost tax revenue. And legal standing for Israeli government run "charities" to sue in US courts for reparations associated with harm done in a long ago war. Something no other nation "harmed" by US firms in other or the same war is accorded.

There is also the hidden aid of US billions in loans to Israel, which are typically converted to no-interest loans and carried on the Fed's books or "forgiven" completely if Israel does constructive things for the peace process now and then.

Porkrinds also attempts to bring up NATO as foreign aid, and I suppose that is fair if one deducts what part of that expense is for America's vital strategic interest, and deduct the payments that Germans (40%), Saudis (100%), Japanese (90%), and remaining Euros pay for US forces costs (20-60%).

And bringing up NATO is fair if one also brings up the non-direct aid costs of Israel - of two Oil Embargos the US suffered for supporting Israel, the terrorist costs associated from supporting Israel, the cost of wars and interventions the US has done with the intent of fully or partially benefiting Israel. And foregone business deals in the Muslim world - an opportunity cost to the US, since we are barred from many as Israel's only backer. And the harm to America's diplomatic interests elsewhere arising from America being associated with Zionism.

And the hideous possible cost to America's defense if the Patriot missile defense, AVRAM cruise missile tech, F-16 avionics, satellite tech, and C4 network technology Israel got from America and secretly sold to China is ever used against us, Japan, or Taiwan. Israel is now banned from participating with America's trustworthy allies on F-35 development work.

Adding Israel the nation is slowly becoming infamous as a drug money laundering, party drug making, porn, prostitution, sanctuary for Jewish violent criminals that flee there, black market weapons, blood diamond wholesaling, and sanctuary for Jewish con-artists center.

All at much cost to America. As well as much cost to Russia, Latin America, and Europe. A key element of Putin's popularity is his going after the billionaire Jewish oligarchs that were awarded whole industries in Russia in payment for loans given to Yeltsin cronies. Putins people have even said that sending their special forces to "get" the oligarchs that made it to Israel is not out of question if extradition talks go nowhere.

Still, I will give Porkrinds this - ompared to Israel - Iran, Syria, and N Korea are clearly worse than what Zionists like to say is "America's special friend".

8/09/2005 03:59:00 PM  
Blogger Andrew Scotia said...

Need I say more....

Comment Spam and more anti-semitism from someone who has never learned the principle of abstraction; of standing back and choosing words.

Gone...

Outta here. Now I'll read when I run across a link somewhere else.

8/09/2005 04:06:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Tony,
When we were homeschooling our son, my wife had some "official" books from the Education Dept for the NEA Nazis in training.
Being a good boy, I gave them a try, but then noticed about 3/4 of the Book for the Teachers on each subject was about teaching, and not about the subject!
...we switched to evil Christian Homeschooling books and a neat series that ran up to 6th grade that exposed kids to a bunch of the classics:
Old, out of date, backwards stuff.
...and he learned math w/o a calculator.
Currently responsible for writing security guidelines on code classified as top secret.
...still has yet to see a classroom!

8/09/2005 04:12:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Is not being able to not read things you don't want to acongenital condition?

8/09/2005 04:14:00 PM  
Blogger Jamie Irons said...

Some commenters have mentioned Little Green Footballs.

As I greatly admire Charles Johnson, I have contributed significant amounts of money to LGF for over three years.

In the early days of LGF I commented frequently, but rarely do now; the comment threads seem often given over to personal interaction or bickering, or in some cases, to highly predictable ranting. (And I have been guilty of these sins myself, don't get me wrong.)

While I have found most of the comments here to be worthwhile (and not a few are brilliant), I would prefer not to read extended arguments between Jews and Christians. (This is not because I think such polemics have no value; I just don't think they belong here.)

In my humble estimation wretchard is a national treasure.

Jamie Irons

8/09/2005 04:26:00 PM  
Blogger Mətušélaḥ said...

Desert Rat,

C4 has made numerous ACCURATE points.

Number them for me. So far everything I read from Cedarfart has either been a blatant distortion, half truth, or a down right lie.

The Israelis HAVE taken US military secrets and dispersed them to the Chinese. The Chicom new J10 aircraft is a direct ripoff of US technology.

And you know this how?
How do you know the Chicom new J10 aircraft is a direct ripoff of US technology? And if it is, how do you know the Chinese did not steal said technology directly from the US. How do you know they did not steal it from the Israelis? Is the technology licensed from Israel? Was it codeveloped with Israel? Is the technology American, American-Israeli, or is it solely Israeli? What technology are we talking about? Do you know any details? And if not, why so quick to point an accusing finger at Israel as a guilty party?

8/09/2005 04:32:00 PM  
Blogger anybudee said...

Cedarford

Israel is our 'special friend'. Given that: many of her citizens have relatives (or were themselves) in the US. we have made defense treaties with her. she is encased in a world of hate. (which is also hate for us)

Support for her is the right thing to do. Last centuries' attempt to obliterate Judaism fairly demands that someone with a backbone cast an arm around them and say, "you will be safe with me." It is one of the best things America does.

Do they play us for fools? EVERYBODY plays us for fools. Look at most all of our allies. Heck, look at half of our population. Doesn't make it any less galling tho, does it?

There is a fear there. A desperation. They are working so hard at "Never Again" that they might be making it inevitable.

I don't know how to get them to stop.

8/09/2005 04:33:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

C4 man, no self control...

8/09/2005 04:33:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

c4: Half of our foreign aid does indeed get allocated for Israel thanks to that miserable piece of shit Jimmy Carter starting the annual welfare check to Israel and requiring payments to ANY adjacent nation that removes itself from being a threat to Isreal and instead agrees to become Israel's Partner in Peace, in return for billions a year for as long as Israel itself gets wheelbarrow loads of US taxpayer dollars.

point: if by LAW what ever is given to israel must be given to egypt as part of the camp david accords, how can egypt's aid + aid to jordan and aid to all others add up to JUST 50%? It's like the addition from the producers...

simple point, c4 doesnt count aid for AIDs as aid, he doesnt count the 11 billion written off to egypt as aid, he doesnt count the narco assistance to latin america as aid... in short, he's wrong...

8/09/2005 04:46:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

c4: That is why you will never see the powerful AIPAC demand Egypt lose it's IRS-collected transfer payment - because the ME foreign aid is bundled. Though, curiously, only our "Special Friend" has worked a special deal where only Israel, of all nations, gets all it's foreign aid up front, rather than in quarterly payments.

Interesting: why would "AIPAC" make demands of Egypt's aid? AIPAC doesnt stand for "egypt" so what is the point of the comment? BIBI, when he was prime minister gave a speech to both houses of congress ASKED for economic aid to Israel to be CUT..

As for the timing of the payments, give me a break...

8/09/2005 04:52:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

C4: States granting waivers so Israeli companies can get contracts - something allowed to no other country. Federal grants to Israeli universities & firms doing research that actually is in competition with American firms and universities.

great point C4, part of the camp david accords REQUIRE that the majority of aid be spent in AMERICA that israel receives... american jobs building trailers for settlements, does my heart proud!

8/09/2005 04:54:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

c4: There is also the hidden aid of US billions in loans to Israel, which are typically converted to no-interest loans and carried on the Fed's books or "forgiven" completely if Israel does constructive things for the peace process now and then.

actually, never... no loan has ever been forgiven to israel (france yes, israel no)

please provide specific details

8/09/2005 04:56:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

c4: And bringing up NATO is fair if one also brings up the non-direct aid costs of Israel - of two Oil Embargos the US suffered for supporting Israel, the terrorist costs associated from supporting Israel, the cost of wars and interventions the US has done with the intent of fully or partially benefiting Israel. And foregone business deals in the Muslim world - an opportunity cost to the US, since we are barred from many as Israel's only backer. And the harm to America's diplomatic interests elsewhere arising from America being associated with Zionism.

you are correct, if only the jews of israel would die, then the arabs would love us...

interesting point, you are correct, US firms do no business in the arab world, lol, please, get real..

8/09/2005 04:58:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

c4: Adding Israel the nation is slowly becoming infamous as a drug money laundering, party drug making, porn, prostitution, sanctuary for Jewish violent criminals that flee there, black market weapons, blood diamond wholesaling, and sanctuary for Jewish con-artists center.

it's a jungle out there.. yes there you go with that "immorality rap"? hey folks, how can I respond to this?

8/09/2005 04:59:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

c4: As well as much cost to Russia, Latin America, and Europe. A key element of Putin's popularity is his going after the billionaire Jewish oligarchs that were awarded whole industries in Russia in payment for loans given to Yeltsin cronies. Putins people have even said that sending their special forces to "get" the oligarchs that made it to Israel is not out of question if extradition talks go nowhere.

now c4 continues with the "jewish billionare" club controlling the vast wealth of europe/russia....

8/09/2005 05:00:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

c4: Still, I will give Porkrinds this - ompared to Israel - Iran, Syria, and N Korea are clearly worse than what Zionists like to say is "America's special friend".

and in the end he states the simply statement, hi israel, have you stopped beating your wife type question...

iran, syria & north korea are worse than israel, how can one even attempt to discuss the subject with c4? it's almost too much, too stupid, too blind hatred...

8/09/2005 05:03:00 PM  
Blogger sam said...

Al Qaeda uses Web as a weapon:

The jihadist bulletin boards were buzzing. Soon, promised the spokesman for al Qaeda in the Land of the Two Rivers, a new video would be posted with the latest in mayhem from Iraq's best-known insurgent group.

As with most breakthroughs, it was a combination of technology and timing. Zarqawi launched his jihad in Iraq "at the right point in the evolution of the technology," said Ben N. Venzke, whose firm IntelCenter monitors jihadist sites for U.S. government agencies. High-speed Internet access was increasingly prevalent. New, relatively low-cost tools to make and distribute high-quality video were increasingly available. "Greater bandwidth, better video compression, better video editing tools -- all hit the maturity point when you had a vehicle as well as the tools," he said.

After Abu Musab Zarqawi swung the curved blade of his sword and decapitated Nicholas Berg, he picked up the bloodied head of his victim and screamed out praise to Allah. The camera lingered on the dead man's wild eyes.

Khattab, the Jordanian-born commander of foreign fighters in Chechnya, had used the filmed atrocity in the 1990s when he videotaped graphic attacks on Russian forces and packaged them together as videotapes called "Russian Hell," which sold in Western mosques and Middle Eastern bazaars and now circulate on the Internet.

"The Winds of Victory" opens with footage of the American bombing of Baghdad. It is nighttime, and the screen is dark except for the violent orange explosions and the wry captions "Democracy" and "Freedom" written in Arabic.

For 26 minutes, the instructional video lays out in precise detail how to construct the item that more than any other has come to symbolize the Iraq insurgency -- a suicide bomber's explosive belt.

And the bulletin boards keep track of Zarqawi's corps of suicide bombers, with long online lists of the "martyrs" compiled from various sources. Israeli researcher Reuven Paz has a list gleaned from the postings of more than 400 Zarqawi recruits who have died in Iraq. Paz said the biographies are an informal census very much in keeping with the profile of an Arab Internet user -- middle class and highly educated, "people with wives and kids and good jobs," Paz said, "going, as if by magic, after the virtual leader."

A few weeks ago, al Qaeda in the Land of the Two Rivers released the third version of its online magazine, Thurwat al-Sinam. This latest issue lectured on the recipe for a successful raid, an almost-scientific procedure involving six steps for planning and executing, with five groups of fighters designated by tasks such as "protection," "gap-making" and "pushing in."

Battles can be won in Iraq but then ultimately lost if they are not on the Internet. "The aim is not to execute an operation, which is followed by complete silence, but telling the reason why it was executed," the magazine advised. "It is a must that we give this field what it deserves. . . . How many battles has this nation lost because of the lack of information?"

8/09/2005 05:07:00 PM  
Blogger EddieP said...

Wretchard

I'm with the group urging you to keep the comments going. There are good points raised by each side which rightfully belong in the discussion.

That said, I would hope there is some way to block the over the top trolls who come here not to add to the discussion but to vomit on the rest of us.

LGF has the problem that the thread often gets OT and becomes a personal message board. I can put up with trolls because they usually reaffirm my perception of the looney left. I can ignore them to get to the meat! I get fed up with the message board bandwidth bandits using your blog for their own personal gratification. You have some of that going on here today.

KOS and DU immediately ban anyone who doesn't toe the party line. Your writing is so good and your analysis so penetrating, please don't give it up because of some nitwits.

8/09/2005 05:12:00 PM  
Blogger sam said...

Web as weapon:

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8876383/

8/09/2005 05:16:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

8/09/2005 05:16:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

8/09/2005 05:29:00 PM  
Blogger anybudee said...

pork rinds

Thank you.

There is a lot of stuff floating around. It gets difficult for those of us in the hinterlands to make informed choices.

You know we can't trust the MSM. The statesmen in Washington? Please.

It's in dialog like you just gave that I grope around in to find objective truth.

I'm sure we don't see eye to eye on many things, but I sure appreciate your honest efforts.

What else do we have?

8/09/2005 05:33:00 PM  
Blogger Aristides said...

This is Uroboros, and we need to break the cycle. If every discussion turns into an apologia for pro- and anti-Israel beliefs, or for pro- and anti-Christian posture, before long the baby will be thrown out with the bath water. It's time to find the pacifier.

It takes about five minutes to set up a new blog. If you feel strongly about Israel, Cedarford, then argue your points there. Pork Rinds, if you feel strongly against Christianity, argue your points on a "Christianity is Pagan" site. If other commenters feel strongly about such topics, they can stop by and join those particular discussions. There they should stay unless those discussions are immediately pertinent to Wretchard's post.

The fact is, this is not an open forum; treating it as one--obsessively planting your flag in non-topical issues--smells of vanity.

Wretchard is the big enchilada, of course, but the comments also draw people, and add erudition. His excellence attracts excellence, and his thoughtfulness attracts thoughtfulness; we should be mindful of that.

With every word we type we are branding Belmont Club. To a man (or woman) we can agree that people should read Wretchard's posts, yet we dishonor the spirit of his blog by letting the discussions degenerate into embattled ramparts and petty sniping. This blog is to bring us together to face the tough times ahead, with insight and inspiration. Pet issues have their place, but surely only if they have been called for.

Link to your own blog for pet issues. Let Wretchard supply the raw meat.

8/09/2005 05:34:00 PM  
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8/09/2005 05:34:00 PM  
Blogger jakita said...

Aristides 5:34 said--

"This is Uroboros, and we need to break the cycle. If every discussion turns into an apologia for pro- and anti-Israel beliefs, or for pro- and anti-Christian posture, before long the baby will be thrown out with the bath water. It's time to find the pacifier."

I'm not sure who Uroboros is--some worm, I think--but I agree 100% with his statement and with that of Jamie Irons earlier.

The comments section on this blog should not be taken over by pro/anti-Israel/Christian in-fighting. It gets extremely tedious and pointless, and there are plenty of other blogs to argue these subjects, if you're so inclined. (I'm not.)

8/09/2005 05:50:00 PM  
Blogger anybudee said...

Aristides

I could not disagree with you more strongly. Right now, IS the confluence. Police the posts? Absolutely. Surely you see the 'comments deleted' all around you.

Wretchard's a big boy. This is real democracy in action. No censorship. Both pork and C4 are vital to these 'forbidden discussions'. They don't happen anyplace else that I know of with this kind of passion and savvy. They should happen in our universities, but you know the name of that tune.

Frankly, I'm surprised at you.

If discussions like that are blocked then I say: Both the Mooreites and al Queda have won.

8/09/2005 06:00:00 PM  
Blogger Aristides said...

anybudee,

I went to your blog to respond to your previous post. Hopefully it will explain my position.

Not police, but prudence.

8/09/2005 06:03:00 PM  
Blogger Aristides said...

And an example is formed.

8/09/2005 06:04:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

pc killa

There are numerous articles and links available in regard to Israeli/ Chicom arms trade
The one I use, in the interest of brevity quotes our CIA Director from that era
"...Former CIA director R. James Woolsey informed the U.S. Senate in late 1993 that he was "alarmed" by the military partnership between Tel Aviv and Beijing, and officially accused Israel of "illegally supplying China with classified defense technology from sources in the West."

Reading from a declassified CIA report while appearing before the Senate Governmental Affairs Committee, Woolsey added: "We believe the Chinese seek from Israel advanced military technologies that U.S. and Western firms are unwilling to provide."

Woolsey revealed that Israel has been selling military technology to China for over a decade, and that the sales may amount to several billion dollars.

During subsequent testimony, Woolsey said the CIA is convinced China also is relying on its friends in Israel to assist in developing advanced engines for the next generation of Chinese combat vehicles. He said also that China will rely on Israeli expertise to create sophisticated airborne radar that employs super-secret technology that has been entrusted to Israel for another multibillion dollar joint project—production in Israel of the Arrow missile defense program which also has been funded largely by the United States.

"[These are] systems," concluded Woolsey in his testimony, "the Chinese would have difficulty producing on their own." Now it appears that, thanks to Israeli transfer of highly classified U.S. military technology, the Chinese have done just that, setting off alarm bells among China's neighbors, and America's allies, all around the rim of Asia. ..."
one of many
Israel does not operate it's Arms Trade to the benefit of US interests. No problem with that, they are an independent country, not the 51st state.
To deny the reality though is not productive and makes ole C4 seem all the more credible

8/09/2005 06:05:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

pc kill
In a more recent time frame, June '05, there is this from Israeli Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom.
" “It is impossible to hide the crisis between Israel and the United States with regard to the security industries. We are doing everything possible to put it behind us,”..."
"...“If things were done that were not acceptable to the Americans then we are sorry but these things were done with the utmost innocence,” Shalom said in comments that coincided with a visit by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. ..."

“The United States is our biggest ally and none of the things that were done were done with the intention of harming U.S. interests,” Shalom added.
there is always more...

8/09/2005 06:18:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

What ever the intentions the facts are that Israel HAS supplied the Chicoms with US technology.
Then again so have some US defense firms, Loral Industries and missle guidence tech transfers in 1996 comes to mind

8/09/2005 06:30:00 PM  
Blogger trangbang68 said...

I'd like to apologize for perhaps offending someone with my ten cent intellect compared to some of the heavy hitters here.Some of the thought on here operates at a level at which I probably don't even have that function in my brain.
The spammers are pitiful.Kind of like some old fat guy going to fantasy baseball camp and being delusional enough to think he belongs there.
If I have said anything that offended CAIR or like groups too bad for you.Its my country ,my culture,the freedom my father and I fought for and you haven't paid that price with loyalty or sacrifice.
I'm a Christian,but the Christian,Jewish banter gets weary and does smack of trying to be the smartest guy in the room.
Cedarford is a smart guy with a serious problem .Hard guy to identify.Is he a Muslim incognito,a paleo-conservative closet antisemite ,a man of the pro-Palestinian idiot left?Anyways wearisome rantings.
Closing thought to my ONE POST.You want to see offensive comments,Michelle Malkin posted comments she had received from liberal skunks calling her a bargirl
servicing the 7th fleet because she's Philipino.That's intelligent commentary.
I love the dialogue here and hope in my humble way to bring something to the table.

8/09/2005 06:34:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Why Tolerate the Hate?
By IRSHAD MANJI - Tony Blair's deportation plan in Britain will protect the West's best values: freedom and individuality.

8/09/2005 06:38:00 PM  
Blogger miklos rosza said...

it would be okay with me if there were no comments, even though i have sometimes enjoyed reading them (or even been enlightened now and then).

but the extended exchanges and personal feuds are quite boring.

8/09/2005 06:46:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

miklos,
Some of your recent posts concerning the sexual/psychological health of the Jihadis have been thought provoking.
...always risky to spend time looking for "root causes" and deep stuff in general, but those guys are such classic cases, they deserve special mention/treatment.

8/09/2005 06:52:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

pc killa
If you do not believe these there is "Forward" from NYC. I had not seen this before but they have been publishing since 1897 and there is a link to their Yiddish edition. While I do not read or understand Yiddish, I do believe that it is a Jewish language.
"... China Crisis Straining U.S.-Israel Ties
Arms Sales Flap Intensifies
By MARC PERELMAN
August 5, 2005

In what is turning out to be a rare, protracted crisis between close allies, Israel and the United States remained sharply at odds this week over the sensitive issue of Israeli arms sales to China.

In interviews with the Forward, Israeli officials confirmed reports that Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz had canceled a planned trip to Washington last month because the two sides failed to reach agreement on American demands that Jerusalem tighten its weapons exports, particularly to China. Israel had initially claimed Mofaz canceled the trip in response to new Palestinian violence.

"We are continuing our mutual efforts to solve the issue soon," Defense Ministry spokeswoman Rachel Ashkenazy told the Forward. She said it was pointless for Mofaz to come to Washington until the dispute — seen by experts as the most serious American-Israeli rift in more than a decade — is ironed out. ..."
Also available in Yiddish

8/09/2005 06:53:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

8/09/2005 06:53:00 PM  
Blogger Mətušélaḥ said...

Desert Rat @6:05 PM

That testimony was given in 1993. We're now 12 years later and still there's nothing to support the claims. Nothing specific regards any specific American technology transfer.


Desert Rat @6:18 PM

You're moving the goal posts.

Anyway, if I guess correctly, those statements were given in regard to the cancelled Israeli FALCON radar control aircraft sale. The FALCON employs wholly Israeli radar and electronics suite. Israel has patents on this stuff. It's not American technology. Furthermore, the sale never materialized. Unlike AWAK radar control aircraft sold to the Saudis over Israel's vociferous objections.

8/09/2005 06:56:00 PM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

InstaPundit ran an idea a week or so ago about banning people who are insufferable and then making them buy their way back into the blog. If enough people want them back, you could either set up a PayPal system where readers of the blog would contribute towards their bail, or it could be a voting thing, where readers would vote for or against.

I suspect that this might be time-consuming and that one of the things Wretchard may not have a lot of is time. Especially time spent having to herd misfits and idiots.

I just think it's interesting that the people who post things that I respect and whom I like to read seem to be unanimously agreeing that a rein needs to be put on the abusers ... who seem to be the people who do *not* want anything to be done about their playful frolic-ing.

8/09/2005 06:56:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

pc
They transfered the tech in the 90's. That is not moving the goal post, that is when the points were scored. The J10/ F10 has been in development for quite a while.

There is alot of this tech transfer that has occurred, if it hadn't Mr. Shalom would not be apologizing for it.

Radar, Air to Air missles, Aircraft and air to air missle guidence tracking systems.

Just because it has been going on for over a decade does not make it good for US.

8/09/2005 07:02:00 PM  
Blogger Mətušélaḥ said...

Desert Rat @6:53 PM

You were accusing Israel of providing China with illicit American technology. I want you to back that up. So far I see nothing.

8/09/2005 07:04:00 PM  
Blogger ed said...

Hmmm.

I hope I'm not one of those that made this happen!

If so, Wretchard you have my abject apologies.

8/09/2005 07:08:00 PM  
Blogger Karridine said...

Anybudee, if you 'keep feeling like the GWOT is about Christ', then maybe there's some truth to that.

Ask yourself, "Could Jesus have actually KNOWN that all 3 of His promises would point to the SAME YEAR?" If you answer No, then you scoff and deny Jesus' Divine Authority and infallibility.

Similarly, "Could Jesus have actually MEANT for us to turn toward the One Who Came at the time predicted, prophesied and promised by Jesus?"

If No, then you scoff and deny Jesus omniscience and prescience. And you know what St Peter was led by Christ to say about 'scoffing and denying'. IIPeter2:1 makes it VERY CLEAR that in this day, it is a damnable heresy to scoff and deny our Lord Who redeems us has returned.

THAT's the War On Terror! The Muslims want to 'scoff and deny', just like the Christian clergy, that the Holy One has come down from Heaven and made known the Will of God for this Day.

Muslim clergy are a bit more frantic to cling to power, and that makes them open to extreme positions, not least of which is the crushing and terrorising and killing of any who have the audacity to suggest that Jesus TOLD THE TRUTH when He said the return would happen (in what turns out to have been 1844) at the time ALL 3 promises came to fulfillment: Matt24:14, Luke 21:24, Matt24:15.

THIS is the Global War on Terror, and its being waged FAR ABOVE mere platoon or regimental level!

8/09/2005 07:08:00 PM  
Blogger Mətušélaḥ said...

Desert Rat @7:02 PM

Radar, Air to Air missles, Aircraft and air to air missle guidence tracking systems.

I don't know what if anything of that sort Israel has sold to China, but I do know that all these things you itemized above, have been developed in Israel using Israeli R&D teams and are backed up with Israeli patents. IT IS NOT AMERICAN TECHNOLOGY!

8/09/2005 07:10:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

pc
From The Asia Times, available online at:
http://atimes.com/atimes/China/DL04Ad01.html

Israel's role in China's new warplane

By David Isenberg
December 4, 2002
"... In March 1997, despite official denials from Israeli officials, the US Office of Naval Intelligence in its unclassified "Worldwide Challenges to Naval Strike Warfare" restated more strongly than it had the previous year its belief that US-derived technology from the canceled Israeli Lavi fighter was being used on China's new F-10 fighter. It said, "The design has been undertaken with substantial direct external assistance, primarily from Israel and Russia, with indirect assistance through access to US technologies." In fact, according to the annual intelligence report, "the F-10 is a single-seat, light multi-role fighter based heavily on the canceled Israeli Lavi program". ..."
"...However, this is not the first time accusations of illegal technology have been made. A March 1992 report by State Department inspector general Sherman Funk, "Report of Audit: Department of State Defense Trade Controls", states that alleged Israeli violations of US laws and regulations "cited and supported by reliable intelligence information show a systematic and growing pattern of unauthorized transfers ... dating back to about 1983".

The 1992 Funk report was the first time the US government had publicly released evidence that Israel was improperly re-exporting US-origin weapons technology. Israel and some of its US supporters quickly denounced it. So that their work would not be classified - and thus off-limits to the public - the writers of the report referred to Israel only as a "major recipient" of US technology, and misdeeds were not specified in detail. The classified version, of course, did name Israel as well as other states, and it cited instances of unauthorized retransfers, US officials said in interviews.

The Funk report criticized State's Bureau of Political-Military Affairs for ignoring scores of intelligence reports of apparent violations of Arms Export Control Act (AECA) and International Traffic in Arms regulations retransfer restrictions and for not reporting them to senior officials and Congress, as required by law. Israel denounced the report, especially as its release followed allegations of improper transfer by Israel of Patriot missile technology to China.

In the summer of 2000, the Washington Times reported that a memo circulating inside the Pentagon's Defense Threat Reduction Agency told analysts they no longer had to gain input from the Defense Intelligence Agency before deciding whether controlled technology should be transferred to Israel. The DIA had compiled evidence that Israel had violated US export regulations by transferring missile, laser and aircraft technology to China. ..."

8/09/2005 07:11:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

If these things were not co-developed and/or funded by US, like I said, it is their business.
It does strain credibility that there is NO BASIS for these charges when Mr. Shalom apologizes for unintentional transgressions and the Israel first lobby here in US denies the transgression ever occured, in spite of the Israeli Ministers admissions.
It does make me belive that Israel operates in her best interest, not ours.
Perhaps we SHOULD cut their funding subsidies. They must not need the $3 billion per year if their scientists and engineers are so capable.

8/09/2005 07:22:00 PM  
Blogger Mətušélaḥ said...

Desert Rat @7:11 PM

This all smells of a political hit job.

I don't care about a circulating internal memo. I want specifics. The technology is very specific. It practically carries its own fingerprint, so to speak. It should be very easy to id the specific technology for a match. But there's nothing of substance. If American technology was transfered by Israel to China than the American firms that have patents on that technology can very easily seek damages for patent infringement. So far I only hear crickets.

8/09/2005 07:28:00 PM  
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8/09/2005 07:37:00 PM  
Blogger Mətušélaḥ said...

Desert Rat @7:22 PM

They must not need the $3 billion per year if their scientists and engineers are so capable.

Is that what you think that money is for? I always thought it was for not turning the neighboring desert dunes into glass.

8/09/2005 07:37:00 PM  
Blogger Milan Oskoryp Sr. said...

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more and more territory and more and more our thinkink.Political corectnes already hit "Belmont Club."For months I am watching all Wrch.posts and comments.There is only one side not willing to accept ours comments.Direction of that "push" is:
Islam->left->NGO connected to previous two.
I am sorry for this website.After few months majority will find the fact I found today,reading WRCH.post.Good Bye.

8/09/2005 07:49:00 PM  
Blogger Triton'sPolarTiger said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

8/09/2005 07:53:00 PM  
Blogger Triton'sPolarTiger said...

Wow - looks like I missed quite a conflagration on the Gaza thread.

Wretchard, I hope that in the end, comments will stay. I've been around long enough to recall the Troll-Whose-Name-Must-Not-Be-Mentioned. That 'bot was eventually dealt with. If a few others insist on turning threads into their personal rants, I have no doubt that there are a couple or three regulars here who would consider it an honor and a valuable service to contribute as the gatekeepers. Were it not that the time spent raising the Little Tritons has reduced me to the status of lurker, I would toss my name in the hat.

We all, posters and lurkers, come here primarily to read what you've written. But I have no doubt that many of us have our favorite posters as well. I, for one, would miss hearing from doug, buddy larson, rwe, rick ballard, baron, mrs baron, nahncee, presbypoet, vercingetorix, and a few others whose handles escape me at this late hour.

There's truly nothing else like this blog on the 'Net. I'd hate to see it change.

8/09/2005 07:59:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

dessert: Perhaps we SHOULD cut their funding subsidies. They must not need the $3 billion per year if their scientists and engineers are so capable.

as a pro-israel zionist, i see nothing better than reducing aid to israel, and the rest of the middle east, and as it goes, it's time for our arab allies to start to pony up the cash for real cost protection...

Military aid to israel is supplied so that the jeffersonian democracies of the arab world will not murder every man women and child in the state of israel, the reason for the economic aid was to help israel in light of the ARAB BOYCOTT, Bibi has made alot of free market non-socialist moves to privatize industry and reduce governmental spending, the best way to save US aid, is to get our ARAB friends to stop plotting the next war and get on with PEACE

8/09/2005 08:15:00 PM  
Blogger Milan Oskoryp Sr. said...

We should ask why?Who?
I believe WRCH. is honest man and he will answer by words we could understand without disturbing his point # 1.

8/09/2005 08:16:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

Harry Potter bewitches Guantanamo Bay prisoners

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050809/ts_nm/security_guantanamo_potter_dc

Harry Potter is a popular title among some of the detainee population,"

"We have Harry Potter in four languages, English, French, Farsi and Russian. We have it on order in Arabic.

One prisoner has requested the movies,"

wow gitmo is tuff....

I am sure the next thing will be "USA insensitive to Islam, pushes witchcraft as mental torture"

8/09/2005 08:21:00 PM  
Blogger Rick Ballard said...

Triton,

It's just Gresham's Law in action. There is no mechanism for removing the counterfeit coin from circulation in this instance. He who must not be named was banned at a time when the site was on another platform (I think). The Blogger platform doesn't permit banning and the cost of enforcement through studied post deletion is too high.

So we can accept exposure to borderline pathology, leave, or increase financial support in the hope that a new platform can be established. I still read all posts and follow most comment threads. I don't comment much anymore because I have no stomach for dealing with this type of illness.

8/09/2005 08:47:00 PM  
Blogger sam said...

AL QAEDA MAGAZINE PUBLISHED OPENLY IN TURKEY

The weekly political magazine Tempo and some major Turkish daily newspapers such as Milliyet, Aksam and Cumhuriyet have reported that the Islamist Turkish terrorist organization “Great East Islamic Raiders Front” ( IBDA-C) began publishing a new weekly magazine named ‘Kaide,’ which openly praises Al-Qaida and idolizes Osama bin Laden. The Kaide magazine, which looks like an Al-Qaida bulletin and publishes all their announcements, is published legally in Istanbul and is sold in all the newsstands in Turkey.

The weekly Turkish magazine Tempo conducted an interview with [Ali Osman Zor], an executive of the new IBDA-C magazine Kaide, in their offices in Kasimpasa, Istanbul. Following are excerpts:

Ali Osman Zor speaks of Osama bin Laden and Zarqawi as ‘heroes’, says that the London attacks that killed over 50 people ‘were acts of revenge for Allah’ and claims that former ANAP MP Mehmet Kececiler met with bin Laden [in the early 1990s].

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=19057

8/09/2005 08:55:00 PM  
Blogger sam said...

More from the Turkish interview:

Following are the shocking statements by Ali Osman Zor:

Tempo: "Does Kaide magazine have relations with the Al-Qaeda organization?"

Kaide: "Even if we had ties with Al-Qaeda, given the present legal structure, I don't think you would expect from us such a declaration.

Tempo: "What are your thoughts about Osama bin Laden?"

Kaide: "We pray for all those who fight for Islam's world domination.

Tempo: "Is IBDA-C leader Salih Mirzabeyoglu acquainted with bin Laden?"

Kaide: "I think you should address this question to the former ANAP MP from Konya, Mehmet Kececiler.

Tempo: "While Al-Qaeda paints the world with blood, your headline reads 'Al-Qaeda is liberating the world'. What kind of 'liberation' is that?"

Kaide: "[…] The way they are liberating Iraq is clear. Since the beginning of the occupation of Iraq, 100,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed in the name of what Bush calls 'liberating Iraq.'

Tempo: "But Al-Qaeda kills innocent people who are on their way to work. Doesn't the killing of innocent people disturb you?"

Kaide: "No, it does not. I do not consider those killed in the London attacks as innocent.

Tempo: "So, does this mean that you were happy because of the attacks in London?"

Kaide: "Of course I was happy. Are Americans saddened by the death of children in Iraq, in Palestine?

Tempo: "Will these attacks be followed by more attacks, in your view?"

Kaide: "This fire was set by the infidels, not the Muslims.

Tempo: "Kaide magazine claims that Marcos, the leader of the Mexican Zapatistas, has converted to Islam. What is the basis of your claim?"

Kaide: "We have much evidence about Marcos becoming a Muslim. In the coming days we will make this known.

Tempo: "It is thought that [all] Islamist organizations in the world are interrelated. Does such a relationship exist between IBDA-C and Al-Qaeda?"

Kaide: "I am not the spokesman for IBDA-C. But based on my experience I can say this: No organization admits to such ties.

Tempo: "Will the wave of terror that is striking Western capitals come to Turkey too?"

Kaide: "This depends on the Turkish government's attitude.

http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP95105

8/09/2005 09:18:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

"The [U.S.] has been genuinely weakened in the region, as shown by its defeat in Iraq and the failure of its plans for Lebanon and Iran. The region is now in a new situation ... Timely actions are going to be very decisive".


• Iranian Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, speaking to Lebanese Hezbollah chief Sheikh Nasrollah, 02 August 2005

8/09/2005 09:22:00 PM  
Blogger Milan Oskoryp Sr. said...

Sorry Wrtch..I forgot where are you.
Fyzically.Apology.
However,hard to accept necessity.

8/09/2005 09:46:00 PM  

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