Friday, July 29, 2005

One Person

This appeal for a liver transplant donor came in the mail today from the friends of a woman who has only a few days to live. There must be many like her but we live our lives in instances. She's got a website at: Help Shari Kurzrok

Shari Kurzrok, 31 years old and enagaged to be married, needs a liver transplant. Her doctors at NYU Medical Center have indicated that her liver has failed and completely shut down, leaving us only a matter of days to save her life. Please forward this message to as many people you know. If you can provide immediate assistance in locating a donor, please contact (877) 223-3386 or liverforalife@yahoo.com.

185 Comments:

Blogger Paul said...

That's too damn bad, especially when so many useful organs are simply buried in the ground each year. I wonder if we (US) will ever come around and create a market for human organs so individuals will have more of an incentive to check that donor box.

7/29/2005 01:53:00 PM  
Blogger Dymphna said...

I went to her website. This is so sad, Wretchard. She's only 27 and due to be married in October. The prospect of a death so skewed out of season is the saddest thing I know.

To have to wait for someone to die in order that your child might live must be torture...

Didn't see anything about prayer on her site, but I will anyway. As an old priest once told me, "who knows what it does? It gives me something to do while I'm waiting for things to happen..."

So I pray that your post makes a difference.

7/29/2005 01:57:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

Sorry, I never understood those sort of appeals.

Other than desperation to get something protocols have going to another patient whose life depends on it - given demand far exceeds supply.

"Please, if you know of a soon to be dead person's liver being available....Designate it....Give it to Shari over people ahead of her in transplant recipient line also dying..."

"Please, Mickey Mantle needs a liver. He's a celebrity who drank out his 1st liver and might have cancer there on top of cirrhosis...but give the slugger 1st shot, please!" And he got a liver and someone ahead of him on the list died...and it turned out he did have cancer of the liver after all, and it had spread....

Favortism isn't the answer. Increasing supply of organ donors and maybe far down the road, growing liver tissue from stem cells - is.

The present situation makes organ donation an incredibly lucrative business for medical tissue hravesting & transplant teams, drug companies, even the hefty paychecks that "non-profit" organ donor bank staffers get. But absolutely no benefit accrues to the donor's heirs.

No money.

No chance even in the absence of monetary compensation to designate 3-5 heirs as getting "bonus points" in any organ waiting queque if they come from a family that supports organ donation.

No advantage in getting a transplant over someone that would never donate for transplants. Have "organ donor" specified on your license? No advantage over someone who refused to list on his license before his condition was diagnosed. Or who comes from a culture or subsection of society or religion here that prohibits the donation, but not the receipt of organs....

If we want more organs, we need more incentives to do so, and more disincentives on those refusing organ donation. Keeping it a pure act of personal conscience and altruism isn't cutting it (no pun). Not when it is an industry that confers many advantages and good renumeration to the "professionals" in the organ biz.

7/29/2005 01:58:00 PM  
Blogger Tony said...

Thanks for this Dymphna As an old priest once told me, "who knows what it does? It gives me something to do while I'm waiting for things to happen..."

Reminds me of why the Scientist prays. Why not?

7/29/2005 02:27:00 PM  
Blogger metaphysician2 said...

Am I the only one who thinks the default assumption for anyone dying, absent specific instructions from the decedent contrarywise, should be "everythings donated"??

7/29/2005 03:13:00 PM  
Blogger Yashmak said...

That sounds reaonable to me meta.

As long as whatever's left of me is fired into space.

7/29/2005 04:31:00 PM  
Blogger Mətušélaḥ said...

Harvest these things from captured jihadis and Saddam's immediate family.

/Karma

7/29/2005 05:31:00 PM  
Blogger miklos rosza said...

thanks cedarford for going into the issue. i worked in an ER for several years and was privy to some very uncomfortable conversatons after (most often) someone's violent and unforeseen death.

7/29/2005 08:07:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"Am I the only one who thinks the default assumption for anyone dying, absent specific instructions from the decedent contrarywise, should be "everythings donated"?? "
---
Not too hard to imagine an unasked for assisted "suicide"

7/29/2005 09:15:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Harvest these guys before the get on the plane.
. France ejects 12 Islamic 'preachers of hate'By Colin Randall in Paris(Filed: 30/07/2005)
The gulf between British and French treatment of preachers of hatred and violence was thrown sharply into focus yesterday when France announced the summary expulsion of a dozen Islamists between now and the end of August.
A tough new anti-terrorism package was unveiled by Nicolas Sarkozy, the interior minister and a popular centre-Right politician.

Nicolas Sarkozy: 'We have to act against radical preachers'
His proposals reflect French determination to act swiftly against extremists in defiance of the human rights lobby, which is noticeably less vocal in France than in Britain.
Imams and their followers who fuel anti-western feeling among impressionable young French Muslims will be rounded up and returned to their countries of origin, most commonly in France's case to its former north African colonies.
. France ejects 12 Islamic 'preachers of hate'By

7/29/2005 09:16:00 PM  
Blogger demosophist said...

I don't know what the odds are that Sheri will obtain a liver, but as someone who has had to depend on the kindness of others from time to time it heartens me to see you post this appeal. We're not really in this alone, though it sure seems that way sometimes. Something like this reminds us of both our vulnerabilities and of the better angels of our being. The appeal has value in its own right, quite apart from its intended utility.

But I sure hope the appeal works, too.

A friend of mine at George Mason School of Law (Lloyd Cohen) has written a number of excellent articles on the details and benefits of creating a market for organs, and it's certainly time to get on with that. Such a market would not prevent people from donating without a financial reward, either. It'd just save lives.

7/29/2005 09:36:00 PM  
Blogger jj mollo said...

Cedarford,

You're a very bright guy and I don't disagree with anything you say, but really, she's only 31. I don't think we should get into blaming the victim. People get desperate. Have a heart.

7/29/2005 09:57:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

jj mollo -

I have a heart.

If I was her I'd do it too. If I was Mickey Mantle I'd try to jump the line on celebrity. If I was a powerful politician I'd use my clout to get head of the line privileges. If I was the parent of a cute kid, I'd use a professional photog to bring out the pathos and tug at heartstrings without regret. If my kid wasn't attractive, I'd use a child model to better attract and manipulate and raise funds (it's been done - ersatz pics).

Life & death, baby!

All because of a broken system that somehow suits the medical & legal establishment's priorities.

The point being that we have had this BS going on for 25 years. Huge bucks for some medical pros coupled with a perpetual organ shortage that has families doing whatever they can to gain an advantage and short circuit the protocols.

All while the average person is convinced that the process is unfair, somehow rigged, discriminates on race, money, and age criteria - and no benefit at all goes to donors heirs other than "feeling good about giving"....

Years back, I had a friend put in a fatal coma in a car crash and what I saw wasn't pleasant. His parents were contacted by a "grief counselor" who I swear acted like she got a commission if she "closed the deal" on the organ donation agreement paperwork she was shuffling. Hard sales pitch about saving others...or not. And the questions she asked were sometimes unecessarily intrusive and only put a further hurtin' on the parents.

HIV or hepatitis or mumps a concern? Test for it.

Don't be asking parents about how "sure" they are their kid avoided drugs and gay sex...if they had all recommended childhood shots...as the guys relatives and friend are waiting for the coming minute or hour when the uncontrolled brain swelling causes inevitable brain death.

Fix the system.

1. Presume organ donation is the preference unless informed otherwise.

2. End the torture of 101 questions of the bereaved.

3. Put a benefit in for up to 5 of the donor's heirs.

Any benefit. Like 5% off their hospital bill for the next 20 years, bonus points in the organ donor registry if they need a transplant. Even a percentage of fees if some of the "free tissue" harvested is in fact going to a organ broker for-profit firm or a stratospherically salaried "non-profit" run by doctors - whose shell corporation sells patient's bone, skin, corneas, and other "cadaver parts" on the open market. And a fix also has to have disincentives for anyone that is an adult that does not agree to organ donation - negative points on an organ recipient priority protocol. And some folks say other disincentives should exist - like being a con in jail for murder....puts you behind law-abiding citizens in priority/

7/30/2005 12:38:00 AM  
Blogger al fin said...

It is expecting too much of modern humans to think that they will approach the subject of death rationally. We push it out of our minds at all cost. But it happens anyway and we are almost always unprepared.

It is truly tragic when someone is touched by fatal disease before their time. War, disease, famine, accident. All the pain and suffering in the world and the best most of us can do is to just not think about it.

If you cannot feel sad and sympathetic about Sheri's situation, you have lost part of your humanity. If you cannot at the same time consider rational implications of her plight, you have likewise lost part of your humanity.

Does Sheri have any organs that she might consider donating upon her death? Has she made arrangements to do so?

7/30/2005 08:02:00 AM  
Blogger TheNewGuy said...

Cedarford,

While I agree with you that there should be more organs, you're over the line in your indictment all those money-hungry "professionals" in the organ procurement business.

Disclaimer: I am one of those professionals... I'm a physician who has facilitated many organ donations (I work in emergency services).

You're correct that there are many more potential recipients than donors... but I am very leery of injecting financial incentives into the picture. Currently the tranplant list is by medical necessity (and somewhat by geographic considersations). Making organ donation for-profit has the potential to cut out the indigent who could never afford the huge price tag.

Also, the "101 questions" is generally done by professionals. They MUST screen for risky behaviors and potential problems... would you rather they transplant an organ, then have the recipient die of HIV or Hep C?

Organ donation is fraught with ethical problems. As you said yourself, you'd use/do anything you could to get an organ, even to the exclusion of others. Understand, it's not just about you; that's why medical professionals coordinate transplants instead of laymen.

7/30/2005 08:03:00 AM  
Blogger Dave H said...

c4, your ideas are reasonable for once. One question, once anything of commercial value gets into the system, how do you stop a market from developing on the demand side? I guess you mean to strictly prohibit any queue jumping. but who sets up these priorities? Medical professionals? Politicians? Bureaucrats? I trust none of the above.

7/30/2005 08:11:00 AM  
Blogger Dave H said...

thenewguy, my apologies if you were offended by my post, I do not mean to accuse any person or even a group, but once the opportunity is created, someone always seems to try to manipulate the system.

7/30/2005 08:18:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

what al fin said

7/30/2005 08:38:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

...and dave h

7/30/2005 08:40:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

Thanks Wretchard for using your place in our society to shed a little light on this subject...

7/30/2005 08:52:00 AM  
Blogger TheNewGuy said...

No offense taken, Dave et al.

Organ donation is always a contentious topic. I encourage broadening the pool of potential donors, and there have been good proposals to that end. I believe a person should be able to opt out of donating if they feel strongly against the issue. I also think a default position of "donate-unless-they-say-no" would greatly increase the potential pool. I would view with a jaundiced eye any sort of for-profit system where people or relatives were allowed to sell organs. There is the potential for terrible conflicts of interest.

To the layperson, I know it seems gauche to address organ donation with a grieving set of parents, particularly when their young teen just had a terrible head injury from his motorcycle, or shot himself over a breakup with his girlfriend. Unfortunately, time is truly of the essence with donated organs. Once deprived of blood and oxygen, the clock is ticking... you only have a few hours to transplant that organ before it's no longer viable.

I acknowledge cedarford's obvious discomfiture with what seems like an awkward, rude, and intrusive interrogation during a moment of private grief... but there is often no alternative. There simply isn't a timely test for everything.

We try to address the issue with as much delicacy and sensitivity as possible... but sometimes there is no good way to ask a bad question.

7/30/2005 08:57:00 AM  
Blogger trangbang68 said...

Its an interesting place for this discussion,Belmont Club.Usually the target of discussion is combatting an ideology that whistles to from and towards the grave.
Compassion and care for the infirm is a reflection of our Judeo-Christian and Enlightenment heritage.
Doug,no point in harvesting the imans' livers.They are too filled with bile to be useful.

7/30/2005 09:03:00 AM  
Blogger Nathan said...

the default assumption for anyone dying, absent specific instructions from the decedent contrarywise, should be "everythings donated"

No.

7/30/2005 09:34:00 AM  
Blogger ledger said...

Ice a terrorist then donate his organs for a greater cause - sounds like a positive step forward.

7/30/2005 09:35:00 AM  
Blogger demosophist said...

Cedarford said:

"1. Presume organ donation is the preference unless informed otherwise."

Well, better than forced altruism anyway. Still, not exactly devoid of ethical implications.

Someone suggested that an organ market would disadvantage the indigent, who couldn't afford the cost, but my initial impulse would be that an organ market might well induce more peple to donate organs without payment, while also expanding the total number of available organs. Pretty much a win-win.

There is, of course, some danger of market distortions on the demand side, not only in the form of queue-jumping, but possibly in "quasi-cosmetic" longetivity-enhancing investments by very wealthy and slightly disturbed people. Those could be addressed by statute, but they aren't strictly market resolutions of the problem.

7/30/2005 10:09:00 AM  
Blogger Triton'sPolarTiger said...

My driver's license indicates I'm an order donor.

I'm a bit bothered by making it a default for all persons who don't communicate a preference before they can no longer do so. It might be an irrational concern, but I worry about what sort of pressure this might generate to hasten the departure of someone (lacking an advocate) who, given a bit of time, might recover... all in the name of saving or enhancing another life.

7/30/2005 01:05:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

TheNewGuy - but I am very leery of injecting financial incentives into the picture. Currently the tranplant list is by medical necessity (and somewhat by geographic considersations). Making organ donation for-profit has the potential to cut out the indigent who could never afford the huge price tag.

But the system doesn't work half as well as it should! No real donor incentives exist. It doesn't have to be money. With IT coming to medical care recordkeeping it could be registered donor families getting priority if they need a transplant over unregistered ones, all other things being equal. And many in the public are convinced that organ priority is routinely circumvented by those with money and clout.

Also, the "101 questions" is generally done by professionals. They MUST screen for risky behaviors and potential problems... would you rather they transplant an organ, then have the recipient die of HIV or Hep C?

From my experience, the last thing I want is a part-time saleswoman operating on commission intruding in my grief simultaneously cajoling & wanting to "close the sale" while asking 101 questions that are time-consuming and of dubious value anyways. "Did your son ever engage in unprotected anal sex with another man?" "I'm sure I'd be the 1st to know if he ever did." "Let me show you a picture of Jenna...Jenna isn't her real name but she needs a kidney and has two little kids..."

In the case of my dead friend, the woman's "sales commission" was lost when she kept droning on about how noble they were and did he ever get a booster shot around 12 or visit Haiti..The guy's parents said they went in thinking about organ donation and just rebelled because they were so pressed on and hassled - the Mom on emotion's edge lost it, stood up, told the woman "NO!" the "medical professional" said she was over halfway done....and the husband backed his wife and they walked out to get close with their kid.

No organs were released for transplant. Not even corneas. The discussion was over halfway through "101 questions".

Which is why the failed donor system needs alternatives like having the full prospective donor's medical records available to the transplant workers. So they are not making life miserable on grieving parents - while attempting to both get the "sales pitch done" to get the business - while also doing a half-ass impromptu medical records reconstruction to see if the cadaver to be is "clean enough" for harvesting.

If you are in the Biz I would suggest doing the quick tests that are now possible and only doing questions that answer what cannot be tested for - rather than an endless series of mostly dumb questions from a post AIDs 1980s Red Cross blood donation questionnaire combined with even more oddball disease and lifestlye questions and the on again off again sales pitch stuff.

7/30/2005 03:05:00 PM  
Blogger TheNewGuy said...

Cedarford,

I don't think you understand how this process works. I have never, ever heard of organ procurement people working on commission, or forced to "get the numbers" like some kind of used car salesman, and I'd be very surprised to hear about such an arrangment.

There is no excuse to just "do the quick tests" and half-ass the interview. Keep in mind, there is an organ recipient whose life is very much at stake. We owe a duty to that recipient to do everything in our power to reasonably exclude pre-existing pathology or risk factors. Remember that infective people don't always seroconvert right away, rendering the standard antibody screens unreliable.

History is paramount... a thorough history MUST be taken; we would be shirking our duty to the recipients if we did otherwise.

Some families are simply not in a frame of mind to have the necessary discussion... we recognize that, and don't expect everyone to donate organs. The organ donation folks are professionals, and are specifically trained in how to approach and discuss the issue with families. I have yet to see them be anything but professional, and I'll wager I've been in on more of those discussions than most.

I'd physically throw an organ procurment person out of my ER if I felt they were browbeating a grieving family, or forcing a hard sell on weeping parents.

I'd advise against extrapolating from your n=1 experience.

7/30/2005 03:59:00 PM  
Blogger ledger said...

Organ Transplantation seems to be a fairly complex process. In the case of a liver, it must come from a fresh cadaver. It has to be tissue typed. It has to be about the right size. And, it must be installed correctly. Here is a little of what I found about the process.

Organ Procurement & Transplantation Network (OPTN):

The liver is one of the largest and most complex organs in the body. It weighs approximately 1,500-1,800 grams (or about three to four pounds) and is made up of a spongy mass of wedge-shaped lobes. The liver has numerous functions that are necessary for life. The liver helps process carbohydrates, fats, and proteins, and stores vitamins. It processes nutrients absorbed from food in the intestines and turns them into materials that the body needs for life. For example, it makes the factors that the blood needs for clotting. It also secretes bile to help digest fats, and breaks down toxic substances in the blood such as drugs and alcohol. A liver transplant may involve the whole liver, a reduced liver, or a liver segment. Most transplants involve the whole organ but segmental transplants have been performed with increasing frequency in recent years. This would allow two liver recipients to be transplanted from one cadaveric donor or to allow for living donor liver donation. A reduced liver transplant may result if the donor liver is too large for the recipient.

See: OPTN, Liver


National Minority Awareness Day is observed every August 1 to increase awareness of organ donation among African American, Hispanic/Latino, Asian, Alaskan Native, Pacific Islander and Native American populations. The event also recognizes minority donors and their families.
More than 89,000 people across the United States are on a waiting list for an organ transplant. More than 44,000 of them -- nearly half -- are from minority populations.

Many of the conditions leading to the need for transplant, such as diabetes, occur with greater frequency in minority populations. Patients on the national waiting list are most likely to find well-matched organs within their own racial/ethnic group, but 70 percent of U.S. donors are Caucasian.

The need for minority donors is critical. For example:
African Americans represent 13 percent of the U.S. population, but 35 percent of patients awaiting kidney transplant.
Hispanic/Latinos also represent 12 percent of the U.S. population, but 17 percent of patients awaiting kidney transplant.

Organ procurement organizations and transplant centers across the country focus special efforts to reach minority populations to promote donation and answer questions and concerns. Efforts include public service campaigns designed specially for Latinos and African Americans by the Coalition on Donation. Both campaigns promote donation and dispel myths associated with organ donation
.

see: waiting list


The OPTN database contains pre-transplant information that pertains to transplant candidates on the OPTN Waiting List, donor/recipient matching, deceased and living donors, histocompatibility, and potential recipients. Much of the data are collected via data collection forms which include the Transplant Candidate Form, Deceased Donor Registration Form, Living Donor Registration Form, Donor Histocompatibility Form, Recipient Histocompatibility Form, Potential Recipient Form, and the Liver Status 1, 2a and 2b Justification Forms. Other data are derived from the computer Patient Waiting List, Feedback Records, and Match Run programs.
Waiting List

The Patient Waiting List contains information used by the computer system to match potential organ recipients with available organ donors. Waiting list data can be entered online into the waiting list database by the UNOS Organ Center staff or by registered UNOS transplant professional members. Renal candidate data elements include name, gender, race, age, ABO blood group, peak and current panel reactive antibody (PRA) levels, and patient human leukocyte antigens (HLAs). Information regarding non-renal candidates includes patient status codes (reflecting degree of medical urgency) for heart and liver, ABO blood group, patient age, gender, number of previous transplants, and acceptable donor characteristics. Each time a new patient is added to the waiting list, a Transplant Candidate Registration Form is generated and mailed to the member. When returned to UNOS, this form adds additional clinical data about the potential transplant recipient.

Match Run

Each time a deceased donor organ becomes available, a computer program compares donor information with transplant candidate characteristics stored on the waiting list. The computerized comparison process is known as a match run. For each donor organ, computerized matching algorithms are used to produce rank ordered lists of potential recipients. The matching algorithms used are based on organ allocation policies, transplant center acceptance criteria, and local variances (UNOS/OPTN-approved variations of UNOS/OPTN allocation policies)
.

See prior links for info.

7/30/2005 04:58:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

ledger,
I got checked out, and doc says I apparently have nothing left.

7/30/2005 06:02:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

the new guy says,
"I don't think you understand how this process works. I have never, ever heard of organ procurement people working on commission, or forced to "get the numbers" like some kind of used car salesman, and I'd be very surprised to hear about such an arrangment. "
---
Yeah,
But you don't know C4's friends:
He thinks Hezbollah makes a nice policing presence.

7/30/2005 06:04:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

the new guy says,
"Making organ donation for-profit has the potential to cut out the indigent who could never afford the huge price tag"
---
Also, as I alluded to above, it has the potential for harvesting indigent's organs on the sly.

7/30/2005 06:07:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

(my 9:15 post)

7/30/2005 06:08:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

ledger,
re: "ice a terrorist."
As Trangbang notes, livers are out, and for a very good reason.
Same for brains and hearts if they figure out the brain procedure.
What other Imam Organs are off the table?

7/30/2005 06:15:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Long Gone Tiger Says,
"... all in the name of saving or enhancing another life."
Polar,
Agreed:
...unless it's me, of course.

7/30/2005 06:18:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Back on the serious side:
New Guy,
I have no idea how you guys cope:
Years ago a friend who was a volunteer fireman had to respond to a motorcycle accident involving a beautiful 19 year old girl.
He said there were no signs of trauma, and her heart and breathing were fine, but he knew she would soon be gone.
It was a rather profound experience for him.
Same thing happened to the 20 year old son of my son's Scoutmaster.
His best friend, an ambulance guy, was first on the scene.
Luckily our son's first motorcycle was quickly stolen.

7/30/2005 06:25:00 PM  
Blogger Mətušélaḥ said...

History is paramount... a thorough history MUST be taken; we would be shirking our duty to the recipients if we did otherwise.

The recipient is already dead as far as all concerned, so no. And if Ledger and I had our way, so would the grateful jihadi donor.

7/30/2005 07:09:00 PM  
Blogger hollymer said...

Can a healty person donate part of their liver to another person?

7/30/2005 09:29:00 PM  
Blogger Rick Ballard said...

"I'd advise against extrapolating from your n=1 experience."

It's actually n<0.

You'd have to read "Protocols of the Elders of Chinese Zionism" to get the flavor of the individual to whom you are replying. He's a fortune in waiting for a dedicated mental health care professional. The Thorazine will flow like fine wine at Bacchanalia.

7/30/2005 10:41:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Rick,
Is there any off the shelf equipment that can be used as a bypass/reservoir combo?
(under the covers, of course)
I'd be glad to pay C4 a visit morning and night.
...as long as he's strapped down.

7/30/2005 11:04:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Damn it Killa,
Read Trangbang again.
I life filled w/hateful bile is a fate worse than death.
...esp for the rest of us.

7/30/2005 11:07:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"I'm an order donor."
---
No Tiger Brain Transplants.
---
If there's a call for stinky jokes,
I could be an odor donor.

7/30/2005 11:13:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"Reminds me of why the Scientist prays.
Why not?
"
Tony,
Superstition?

7/30/2005 11:15:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

Ballard -

Sort out your loyalties. Remember in your posts it's not what's good for Israel that counts, it's what's good for America that counts.

I'd say the same thing if you were a big time fan of Mexico and Mexico was engaged in activities that damaged America and all you could summon up was a kneejerk defense of Mexicos policies and called anyone who disagreed with you "biased against Mexicans".

Wake up. Mexico is not the 51st State, nor is Israel. Countries pursue whats good for their citizens.

Right now we are in a major conflict, an ideological one, and Israel's brutal Occupation actions in Gaza and the West Bank are harmful to my country, America's interests in winning that conflict.

If you happen to be a citizen of Israel only, I apologize for noting your loyalties, which are indeed consistent with being a Likud-backer.

7/30/2005 11:18:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Rick,
You notice he used his child in a hypothetical twice removed, when he could have used himself:
Plus the model, of course.

7/30/2005 11:20:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

C-4,
Why should they want to be the 51st state?
...they already have all the privileges, w/o the downside.

7/30/2005 11:23:00 PM  
Blogger Rick Ballard said...

Dr. Sanity has a good post on paranoia and projection.

"The present situation makes organ donation an incredibly lucrative business for medical tissue hravesting & transplant teams, drug companies, even the hefty paychecks that "non-profit" organ donor bank staffers get."

Another tidy conspiracy, but then that's what life's like on the boarderline. Careful about the "dual loyalties", there is probably a group studying you right now with an eye toward commitment and that type of projection could provide the evidence needed for them to make their move.

Be careful if someone asks you to try on a coat.

7/30/2005 11:37:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Rick,
Aren't a disproportionate number of doctors Jews?

7/31/2005 12:35:00 AM  
Blogger ledger said...

Doug jests...

ledger,
I got checked out, and doc says I apparently have nothing left.


Oh Doug that's not true, your eyes, kidneys, bone marrow and other parts could be recycled for the good of others.

[and]

Doug said... As Trangbang notes, livers are out, and for a very good reason. Same for brains and hearts if they figure out the brain procedure. What other Imam Organs are off the table?

Doug, the bile can be suck out of a potential liver donor (and if said liver was successfully transplanted in a nonviolent person it wound not produce enormous amounts of bile).

The heart can be tissue typed and salvaged (assuming there are not a lot of bullet holes in it). The brain has never surgically transplanted so it's out (well maybe it could be used in dog food).

I say let the Iraqi forces extract the organs and properly tissue type them for better use (there are a lot of terrorist cadavers whose organs could be successfully harvested - maybe add a bonus for said organs would help - why let them go to waste?). Kidneys and corneas are in big demand. Has Saddam signed an organ donor card? If not - I think he should.

7/31/2005 03:51:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Don't be "harvesting" any of me. I'm not sure the Amer. Indigs were not right. I may need my eyes and ears in the great beyond.

A large part of our economy, at about 7%, that is soon to administrated by the same folks running our Immigration Services. The Federals.
You all want an expansion of services, extending to even more Seniors a life of Pharmaceuticals and Doctor visits.
The Medical System is bankrupting our Society and you all what to hurry the process.
A Time to Live
A Time to Die

7/31/2005 06:58:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Let US stop the killing of 'new' life before we extend any lease on the 'old'

7/31/2005 07:00:00 AM  
Blogger Dave H said...

c4
Sort out your loyalties. Remember in your posts it's not what's good for Israel that counts, it's what's good for America that counts.

I will not disagree with you on that c4. Where I part with your thinking is in tying US support or non support of Israel to Islamo-facist emnity of the US. This emnity is mortal and in the view of most thinking persons cannot be resolved even if we bulldozed the Israel's onto the sea. Israel is a democracy of sorts and there is hope that their policies can change. Centuries of history deny that Islam, a 7th century philosophy of goverment which masquerades as a religion, can change in any way. The mechanisms are not in place, it was designed that way. Israel is not always a US friend and ally, witness the incident of the US Liberty. but the Islamo-facists are by far the greatest current threat to western civilization. There can be no peace till the last of them is exterminated. In the long run the Chinese represent an ominous cloud on the horizon, but there is at least a possibility that they can change, I see no compromise with radical Islam as being even remotely possible.

In the meantime the enemyof

7/31/2005 07:57:00 AM  
Blogger Dave H said...

completing the last
enemy of my enemy is my friend.

7/31/2005 08:00:00 AM  
Blogger Mətušélaḥ said...

Hmm,.. How did the Israelis know the Liberty is a spy ship?

7/31/2005 09:16:00 AM  
Blogger truepeers said...

desert rat,

reminds me of Ivan Illich, a guy who was so much against institutions of all sorts, including the medical establishment, he went around for years with a big lump on his head, refusing to get it excised. He figured the modern world was a corruption of Christianity and it was better to live and die in the body god gave you, rather than to give over your struggle and quest for resurrection to the doctors:

...[i wonder] how it is possible for me to believe today that I possess organs that can be replaced when they go wrong by my buying new ones from people recently deceased. For anybody who studies history seriously, it is a major puzzle how we, today, can live with what, to the people of all previous times and places, would have been considered unfeeling brutality and absolute nonsense.
"My concern is, How could such nonsense be historically preopared? And that qustion brings me to my second link with the resurrection, and takes me to my story about Paul. Paul told the Athenians something they didn't want to hear. Come back another time, they told him politely. They were delicate people, decent, well-educated people, and they must have been shocked by his claim. Faith in the mystery of the resurrection of the body did lead in the course of Western culture to a new respect for the body, but it also tended to destroy the myriad of body images that had existed in the world's different cultures, each with its unique body percept. During the course of Western history these old body cultures have been gradually replaced, or perhaps overshadowed is a better word, by respect for the resurrected body of Christ. But once that respect disappeared, a void space was left, into which you could put any construct.... Increasingly physicians are called in to give some credibility to the body which Windows 95 assumes that I have, that is mine. My argument does not deal with the question of why this body is so attractive. I only say that this body is demanded by the enormous institutional ritual of modernity." (Rivers North of the Future, 130-131)


Would it be a stretch to note that C4's sympathy for his friend's parents suggests rather more the ethic behind Jewish funerary practices - bury all the pieces together - than either the Christian belief in resurrection or its corruption in the doctors' "Windows 95" view of the body?

7/31/2005 09:52:00 AM  
Blogger Mətušélaḥ said...

truepeers said:Would it be a stretch to note that C4's sympathy for his friend's parents suggests rather more the ethic behind Jewish funerary practices - bury all the pieces together - than either the Christian belief in resurrection or its corruption in the doctors' "Windows 95" view of the body?

Only it wouldn't be Jewish funerary practices that are on his mind, but Islamic.

7/31/2005 10:00:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Well, there were reports of the large Stars & Stripes she was flying at the time of the attacks.
All told, 34 American servicemen were killed and 171 wounded in the attack.
Israeli's knew what they were doing. They were not so incompetent not to.

7/31/2005 10:03:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

truepeers
taken to an extreme your parable stands up. but for myself I think that processing organs obtained through a 'universal' pool is taking US just one step closer to a place I do not want to go.
Life choices by committee, not my cup of tea.

7/31/2005 10:10:00 AM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

Dave H -

I happen to agree with everything you say.

But while we face Islamist extremism as our #1 threat, lets not forget that actions of certain countries are...less than helpful. France. Germany. China. Saudi Arabia. Israel. Mexico. Canada. All for various reasons. Canada for it's utter lack of military load-sharing, it's smug approach towards "sanctuary" for US criminals, and so on for each country. And so on for each country. In Israel's case, it harms the US directly through it's brutal occupation of Palestinians and ongoing land grabs - negating what Kudos America should get in the Muslim world for the good we do outside our "special relationship" with Israel. Israel also harms the US through spying, illegally transferring our defense technology to China, and constant demands for money - the 2.2 billion to compensate Settlers for abandoning Gaza Colonies that we vehemently opposed in the 1st place.

What I dislike is the dual-loyalty Ballard sorts that think Americans are free to analyze, reflect on, and even criticize all foreign countries. All but one foreign country. Your mention of the USS Liberty - even though it was a US Navy ship - even though dozens died ......Discussion of that was quashed in media & Gov't circles for years through the power of the Zionist Lobby. The attack on the USS Pueblo a year later generated 3-4 movies and almost a dozen hearings in the House and Senate.

Even now, just mentioning the USS Liberty is enough to cause some to brand you an anti-Semite, Dave.

If there is to be an open debate on how we will win the ideological struggle with radical Islam, what the actual areas of difference are between us, mainstream Muslims, and the radical element that is seeking primacy in the Ummah must all be open and on the table. Including things that Muslims don't want to discuss, like the rights of women, or Koranic sanction of killing civilians, any civilians, even Israels. And things America doesn't wish to talk about, like our lop-sided tilt to backing anything Israel wants or does due to the influence of its Zionist backers here, like Ballard.

To get some control over a situation that threatens to spin out of control and become a true mass casualty global war, we have to all be honest and not cling to sacred cows.

About now, many Muslims are worried they were so sanctioning about any and all "freedom-fighting" that they have created a monster, a cult of death. A venomous, evil death cult that has killed more Muslims than infidels. And properly wondering if the ultimate expression of Islam, the pinnacle of their faith, should be a murderous suicide bomber. And if such creatures are really martyrs at all, or violent nihilists seeking to topple the other Pillars of the Islamic Faith in favor of spreading widespread death all over the planet. And justly fearful of what the rest of the world will do if they wake up one day and conclude Islam itself is an existential threat that must be defeated at ANY COST.

About now, America is waking up to the fact that this is not something that can be resolved by military force...force or the threat of force is just one of many tools that must be used. That, if Israel and Israel-backers are suing all over Europe for more reparations, and actually have received reparations beginning in 1946 for lost land and property - they must reciprocate with the 700,000+ they stole land and property from. As of now, Israel has yet to have a shekel pried out of it's fingers. About now, the neocons are waking up to the fact that there isn't near enough political support to get America alone to undertake a series of additional major military wars against Syria, Iran, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Yemen and whatever other countries Zionists want American blood and treasure expended in to better the strategic position of Israel.

As we debate what to do next and implement, all matters must be on the table. Even what Rick ballard and a few others seek to stifle.

7/31/2005 10:12:00 AM  
Blogger Rick Ballard said...

Paranoia, projection, denial and delusion cannot be stifled. They are part and parcel of the conspiracy lover's illness. There is always a percentage of the population that is borderline functional and capable generating superficially reasonable argument in support of their pet delusion of the moment.

You just keep slipping over that border, Cedarford, and turning a thread that was a plea for mercy into a condemnation of a fairy tale cabal profiting richly from transplants is a fair indication of the extent of the disorder.

As long as Wretchard allows you to post, you can count on your condition being exposed. I hope the flag you're wrapping yourself in is disposed of properly. Once it's been exposed to filth, it shouldn't be flown.

7/31/2005 11:24:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

As far as the Liberty incident is concerned a rather nuetral source
From Wikipedia

"... Surviving crew members, as well as a number of Western observers and former US government officials (including then CIA director Richard Helms), and then-Secretary of State Dean Rusk assert that the attack was premeditated and deliberate and that Israel knew the ship was American. ..."

7/31/2005 12:05:00 PM  
Blogger Mətušélaḥ said...

Desert Rat,

Are there any indications or info the Israelis knew it was a spy ship? And if they knew it was spying on their activities, why wouldn't they want to put it out of commission? And why wouldn't they be justified in doing so?

7/31/2005 12:22:00 PM  
Blogger Rick Ballard said...

desert rat,

You might want to review the Suez Crisis and give some consideration to payback being a bitch. The UK and France were working with Israel quite tightly for a bit. Odd as that may seem.

We will never, ever know what Israel is doing to help out the moment but to think that it is zero is risible. You gonna cheer or boo if Israel takes out Iran's nuclear program? Gonna be on a pieceful transition of power in Iran with everybody wearing flowers in their hair and the nukes buried and forgotten?

The Israeli/Indian ties and the US opening with India is the most interesting thing going on in Asia at the moment. That and Japan's resurgence.

The lady still needs a liver and I'll bet she really isn't concerned with Israeli aggression toward the US during a war for Israel's survival.

7/31/2005 12:26:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

'Rat 6:58 AM,
I just heard/read that in 1950, 2% of our incomes went to taxes.
50 years later it was 25%.
...then, with clones and etc plus open markets comes playing God on a scale undreamed of by Hitler.
Isn't one 'Rat's lifespan enough?
Same for Hawaiian Sea Urchin.

7/31/2005 12:29:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

...so for most folks, that 25% pretty well devastates the second earner's contribution.
---
...and contributes to all the crappy politics like we OWE gays free medical for their unrestricted sex play, but smokers OWE us for THEIR habit.

7/31/2005 12:31:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Anonymous Rectal Intercourse .
This week's winner.
HOG ON ICE.

7/31/2005 12:34:00 PM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

Ballard whines:

You just keep slipping over that border, Cedarford, and turning a thread that was a plea for mercy into a condemnation of a fairy tale cabal profiting richly from transplants is a fair indication of the extent of the disorder. As long as Wretchard allows you to post, you can count on your condition being exposed. I hope the flag you're wrapping yourself in is disposed of properly. Once it's been exposed to filth, it shouldn't be flown.

In fact, our lying dual-loyalty poster actually derailed the post with his initial, unwarranted ad hominem attack at 10:41 yesterday...par for the course when he notices anyone he has associated in the past with criticizing the foreign country he loves foremost over the country he lives in.

The usual for Ballard. Protocols of the Elders, implying anyone that criticizes Zionism is crazy:

You'd have to read "Protocols of the Elders of Chinese Zionism" to get the flavor of the individual to whom you are replying. He's a fortune in waiting for a dedicated mental health care professional. The Thorazine will flow like fine wine at Bacchanalia.

So, as we have Americans dying overseas, and one great thing Wretchard does here is seek & allow tangential thinking on what must be done to win - everything is on the table:

New weapons. New strategy. What must be done in strategic communications. What foreign policy needs changing. Even addressing the infamous "root causes" of why the Islamic world has gone from somnolent to hateful and mildly deranged in just the last 40 years. The existence of 5th columns in the West of people whose true alliegance lies elsewhere.

And anyone who comes in and seeks to stifle other posters because of his loyalty to a foreign nation, that is part of the problem as well as being a victim of the conflict, outweighs his willingness to engage in open dialogue - and seeks to deflect discussions with gratuitous ad hominems. That is the real filth.

The days of "the privilege of victimhood" whereby Zionists and radical Muslims both sought to limit criticism by intimidation --laying out charges of "anti-Semitism" or "un-Islamic apostasy" hopefully are drawing to a close. The West-ME-Asia dialogues must be open and honest, and creatures like Rick Ballard, Sami al-Arian, Jonathan Pollard, John Lindh need to sort their loyalties out.

7/31/2005 12:36:00 PM  
Blogger Mətušélaḥ said...

Doug,

Sales Taxes
Income Taxes
Property Taxes
Municipal Taxes
Investment Taxes
================
>> 25% of income

more like 50% or even 60%

7/31/2005 12:40:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Killa,
I was going to say Israelis speak English, so that SS Spy Ship 109 on the bow was a dead giveaway, but according to 'Rat there were other indications.

7/31/2005 12:41:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Yeah,
That's what THEY say, 25%.
But we're the ones that PAY.

7/31/2005 12:43:00 PM  
Blogger Rick Ballard said...

That's the spirit, Cedarford. You just keep smearing a little more filth on it and pulling it tighter and everyone will start saluting.

If they don't, they're part of the Zionist cabal right?

Keep tugging it tighter and tighter, it'll help you tolerate the straps, later on.

7/31/2005 12:52:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Rick says,
"Gonna be on a peaceful transition of power in Iran with everybody wearing flowers in their hair and the nukes buried and forgotten?"
---
M Ledeen and I have our doubts.
...thus we worry and wonder.

7/31/2005 12:53:00 PM  
Blogger Mətušélaḥ said...

I don't follow. The Americans knew the Israelis uncovered the fact that the ship was a spy ship, and yet decided on keeping it operational off Israel's shores? And they thought that would be OK with the Israelis?

7/31/2005 12:59:00 PM  
Blogger Mətušélaḥ said...

Hmm,.. When were these Muslims victimized, Cedarford?

7/31/2005 01:16:00 PM  
Blogger Aristides said...

c4: correct me if I'm wrong, but your points seem to be:

1. Zionists (read: Israel) are [wrong, evil, treacherous, unnerving] because they act in their own self interest.

2. Zionists (read: Israel) are [wrong, evil, treacherous, unnerving] because they want to continue to exist and will do anything in furtherance of this goal.

3. Zionists (read: Israel) are [wrong, evil, treacherous, unnerving] because they utilize the power of the US in furtherance of their goal.

4. Zionists (read: Israel) are [wrong, evil, treacherous, unnerving] because they have exacerbated the Palestinian terrorist problem through mistreatment (which doesn't interest me in the slightest. If you want to analyze how a people honorably deal with such conditions, read about the Polish. Blowing up civilians, therefore, is not caused by mistreatment. Terrorism is caused by culture and the lunacy it empowers.)

Look, I'm all for thinking outside the box, or as you call it, tangential reasoning, but to be tangential you actually have to touch the sphere, and I'm afraid you never get past the Lagrangian point.

I do not understand the vilification of Israel when it is based on nothing more than the status of her existence and the proper behavior that flows from that status, especially when her present objectives are so similar to the US. There are plenty of pariah countries out there acting in their own interests as they see them, why the intense focus on this one?

7/31/2005 01:40:00 PM  
Blogger Mətušélaḥ said...

Aristides: Why the intense focus on this one?

Because the Jewish/Zionist experience is similar to that of the Muslim radicals and the taboo of criticizing these victims needs to be shattered and be done with.

7/31/2005 01:50:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

The Israeli decided to fire on an US ship it was in International waters, clearly flying the Stars & Stripes. That much IS certain.
The Israelis made excuses, if you believe those denials you must believe the CIA and DoD does not know where the Chinese Embassey is in Belgrade.

Obviously the US Administration at the time excused the Israelis for their action. It does not change the facts of the attack. Both by air & sea.

Yes, rick, the Israeli have helped out since, they still put their own interests ahead of ours, in the USS Liberty escapade.

C4's case is not without substance, if it were, it would be much easier to refute, without claims of mud bogging

7/31/2005 02:26:00 PM  
Blogger Mətušélaḥ said...

Desert Rat,
The US government decided to go after Jonathan Pollard, who unlike the Liberty, wasn't on international territory, but on Israeli soil. What excuses did the US make for that? Obviously the US puts their own interests ahead of Israel's.

You either allow spying or you don't. You can't have it both ways.

7/31/2005 02:45:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

The man was named Jonathan Jay Pollard. Family and friends always called him “Jay.” The woman was his wife, Anne Henderson-Pollard. Both were terrified that they would soon be arrested on charges of espionage – unless they could get to the Israeli embassy in time.

The gate of the embassy opened up for the car in front of the Mustang and Pollard zoomed in right behind it. He and Anne breathed a sigh of relief. They had made it! ...
... “Do you know what I have done for Israel?” he asked and pled at the same time. “I’m an Israeli agent.”

“Get out,” he was told again.

“I want to invoke my right under the Law of Return to Israeli citizenship!” he cried. “We’re Jews. We’re on Israeli territory. You can’t throw us out.” ..."
Pollard

"...In a formal statement in May 1998, twelve years later, Israel finally acknowledged that Pollard was an Israeli agent and now assumes a responsibility for helping him return to Israel. He has been granted Israeli citizenship and is frequently visited by Israeli cabinet members. ..."
more Pollard

7/31/2005 02:49:00 PM  
Blogger trangbang68 said...

Ledger-good point on China ominous on the horizon but they may change.They seem to be in a race between liberalization brought on by economic improvement and a combination of xenophobia and a desire to corner the world supply of natural resources.That may end with a whimper not a bang or it may not.
Islam on the other hand is fighting the encroachment of modernity,liberalization,human freedom and dignity.
I'm reading "Infiltration 'by Paul Sperry about Muslim hidden influence in the US.He makes a point I've pondered.Why didn't the 9/11 hijackers ditch the mission and just enjoy life in America?Sperry opines because their loyalty is not to Bin Laden,but to Allah.They have been spiritually seduced.They are true believers.That's the problem.
Cedarford,reading the latter part of Sperry's book I'd worry more about the influence of radical Islamists in the highest levels of our government than Jews.

7/31/2005 02:54:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Of course the US can have it both ways. The Government of the US has it as many ways as it wants.
The word is Omnipotent.
We prosecute spies when it is in our interest, we excuse the deaths of hundreds, as in the case of Reagan in Lebanon, when it is in our interest.
We will invade Nations on a pretext, as in Granada and Panama but let others ride for decade, Iraq or even longer, Cuba.
The US maintains no equal standard of action, we do what we want, when we want, for what ever reason seems appropriate.

7/31/2005 02:56:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"Private radio stations are the extensions of their owners. While the Public owns the airwaves the braodcast equipment is private. If the owners of a station do not want their radio station's editorial policy to be that Mohammedism is a terror org., well that is their decision.
---
I would not own a Radio Station, it not a good business at the present valuations. The current market valuations of radio licenses are not supported by ad revenues available within most local markets
"
---
Quite apart from, and much more IMPORTANT than the specifics and metrics of this case are the larger implications of what it say's about the current state of "free speech" in Amerika.
I understand that the military, the police, businesspeople and etc have all been bludgeoned and brainwashed into accepting mantras like our young GI's repeat almost w/o exception but I ain't buying.
It goes like this:
(At the scene of a Sacred Flag Burning Ceremony)
"Bushitler and his Nazi Military are killing babies, mothers and chipmunks, and polluting the universe."
GI asked for comment:
"That's what we're over here fighting for!"
OK FINE:
Why don't they ever say:

"Of course if it is not some lefty/Islamist/AntiAmerican Screed, that is NOT what we are here fighting for:
Being Pro Christian/American/Patriotic is INCORRECT SPEECH and is not protected.
"
I'll TELL YOU WHY THEY DON'T SAY IT:
Cause then they suffer the same slings and arrows Graham did.
Simple minded or No:
THAT ain't free speech in my book, and it's damned destructive to this country.
I await your reply.

7/31/2005 02:59:00 PM  
Blogger Mətušélaḥ said...

“Get out,” he was told again.
Not so fast there, Desert Rat. Why was Pollard told he must leave the Israeli embassy? Who put the Israelis to do this?

7/31/2005 03:00:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Thanks Trangbang,
Hopefully you can do a whole book review for us sometime, somewhere.

7/31/2005 03:03:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

The consolidation of licenses in the hands of a few conglomerates is troubling. Businesses like Clear Channel can obtain a uncompetitive advantage in their economies of scale. They can end up controlling the broadcast options in any given market.

I would submit that the proliferation of Rush Limbaugh and his radio clones more than balance the scales of radio time.
If you lived in a market that was serviced by this DJ you could start a counter boycott. Since, however, we are viewing from afar, there is little direct action possible.

7/31/2005 03:07:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

The actions of the Israeli Government and their reasons for taking those actions are their own. I would SPECULATE that they were concerned that the blacklash and blowback from sheltering Pollard was greater then the benefits of sheltering him.

7/31/2005 03:10:00 PM  
Blogger Mətušélaḥ said...

Of course the US can have it both ways. The Government of the US has it as many ways as it wants

That's not true. And that is something I would expect to hear from a raving leftist loon, not you, Desert Rat.

7/31/2005 03:12:00 PM  
Blogger Mətušélaḥ said...

Desert Rat @ 3:10 PM
The point is, they were prevented from sheltering him. And they were prevented from doing so by the US government.

7/31/2005 03:15:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

I'm NOT restricting my comments in that post or any other to radio RAT!
I am talking about the state of free speech in Amerika!
---
You seemed to be doing a damned good job of avoiding that simple point and all the specifics I mention like cops GI's and etc having to spew the same PC Nonsense you do.

7/31/2005 03:15:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

I could make a list of all the NON free speech zones in Amerika, but know you are not so stupid as to need one:
Not stupid, just stubbornly wrongheaded.

7/31/2005 03:18:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

That is a realistic appraisal of US actions over the past sixty years. In the days of "Real Politic" we were famous for it. That is why Bushes 'Call to Liberty' is so exciting.
We did support Pinochet. Good may have eventually come of it, but Richard Helms did lie to Congress about it.
Reagan and Sir Ollie DID defy Congress to liberate Central America from perpetual conflict.

Do not shy from the facts, we have targeted individuals in Military Conflicts in the past, and it WORKED.
We do follow the path of self interest, and to think otherwise is delusional.

7/31/2005 03:21:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Go to any street corner you wish, doug, get on your soap box and start.
Using desktop publishing software I know YOU understand do the graphics and start a Newspaper. But or rent the equipment and compete with Micheal Moore. Mel Gisbson did and KICKED HIS ASS!

This is the land of OPPORTUNITY. Take the OPPORTUNITY and take on the foe. Do not complain that others are winning.
This Club is not yet censored, though there are calls for it. Calls to take C4's posting rights away. Internal Censorship, what the radio station had, and what rick ballard calls for here.
wretchard would be within his rights as host to ban ole C4, but would be wrong to do so.

When Government censors call me.

7/31/2005 03:29:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Exactly Rat,
The ACLU does not exist, and if it did it would be overturned at every turn by our right wing reactionary courts.
Good thinking, Comrade 'Rat!
I'm a paranoid delusional for believing my own eyes and ears.

7/31/2005 03:33:00 PM  
Blogger Mətušélaḥ said...

Desert Rat @ 3:21 PM: We do follow the path of self interest, and to think otherwise is delusional.

It's not a question of following the path of perceived self interest. It's a question of following the path of perceived self interest within certain overriding moral objectives. And I don't think the US ever strayed away from these overriding moral principles/objectives, even when it supported Pinochet or Saddam, or played dirty in Central America targeting individuals for assassination.

7/31/2005 03:34:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

The AMERIKAN CAMPUS is a reactionary hotbed of nationalism.
also
MSM
Sentivity training for employees, cops, GI's, on and on.
oops, you tricked me into starting that list.
I don't have forever.
But I guess facts on the ground are irrelevant to some arguments.

7/31/2005 03:35:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Killa,
Same goes for free speech at home:
Saying it's free doesn't make it so.

7/31/2005 03:37:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Where is the Counter to the ACLU?
If the 'Left', C4 blames eastern seaboard Jews, can start and support the ACLU where is the "Right's" answer. The answer is not to destroy the ACLU but to beat them on the field of ideas.
This is a battle you seem hesitant to engage.
Support for Scalia, Thomas, and hopefully Roberts, at the top end.
To rail against the current application of the Fourth Admendment is foolish. Your profile is not supported by the idea of "Citizen" Terrorist. Jose Pedilla and Johnny 'Taliban' Walker do not fit your Arab profile.
The US is so full of 'Soft Targets' that the idea of last line of defense scenarios is nightmarish.

7/31/2005 03:45:00 PM  
Blogger Mətušélaḥ said...

Desert Rat @ 3:29 PM:
wretchard would be within his rights as host to ban ole C4, but would be wrong to do so

So are you suggesting he shouldn't have this right to ban Cedarford?

7/31/2005 03:47:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

" Calls to take C4's posting rights away. Internal Censorship, what the radio station had, and what rick ballard calls for here.
wretchard would be within his rights as host to ban ole C4, but would be wrong to do so.
"
---
.Perfect Rat Spaghetti Logic Bravo.
It would be WRONG to do so here,
but
RIGHT for the radio station to do it
!
(or campus, or crosses on hills or city seals that say God, etc etc.)

Double Standard
WAS banned here,
Maybe you can use the name!

7/31/2005 03:49:00 PM  
Blogger Rick Ballard said...

Might want to work on comprehension a bit there desert rat. Try and find a phrasing in what I wrote promoting censorship.

Wretchard is free to entertain as many paranoids as he wishes on his property. When they get to talking about the cabals surrounding them it's not censorship to suggest that the tin foil might be cracked and allowing deadly rays to further inflame what might once have been a thought process.

When cranks start spouting about how "They're all out to get us." someone needs to point and laugh. Rebuttal isn't really necessary when every post made includes Bircher claptrap coupled with Art Bell memes.

7/31/2005 03:50:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Not at all
wretchard would be completely within his rights to ban whom ever he decides to ban. You, me, C4 or doug. That is his decision as host.
wretchard keeps the forum open, diferent views and ideas flow. Not anyone's 'Party Line'.
That is his choice. If he were decide to limit a poster, fine and dandy. Soon he would find readership dropping, interest waning.
Ask the LA or NY Times. readership and revenues falling, editorial boards, one sided.

7/31/2005 03:55:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Art Bell... now there, rick, is an intellectual from the land of Nye.
Giant spires and buildings on the moon and what not.
Didn't he retire?

7/31/2005 03:58:00 PM  
Blogger Rick Ballard said...

I think he returned to his home planet.

7/31/2005 04:02:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

No doug, the radio station was with it's RIGHTS to dump the DJ. Regardless of whether or not I agree with his statement about Mohammedan Terror.

If I owned the Station I would like to think I'd defend his speech. But if he KNEW that I wanted him to CEASE & DESIST in such on-air talk, and he persisted. Well then, in the face of financial ruin caused by the advertiser boycott that had been organized because of his unauthorized comments, I just could be forced, for the good of the other employees and the stockholders, to let the boy go.

7/31/2005 04:08:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Desert Rat said,
"The Government did not end that fellows carreer at that station, he did."
---
Limited thinking:
The Environment Legally speaking, and the Government Lawyers included, all too often, play by the PC Rules,
nay MAKE, the pc rules that protect the enemy and punish the friend.
Not Pretty,
Still True.
Not Whining, Telling the Truth instead of always coming to the defense of the enemy within.
Even tho sensitivity training, has all to many doing otherwise.

7/31/2005 04:14:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"If I owned the Station I would like to think I'd defend his speech."
---
Thank you, that's what I was looking for about 14 posts ago.
We don't ALWAYS have to argue, do we?
Pot calling kettle...

7/31/2005 04:16:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Art ringing Bell.

7/31/2005 04:16:00 PM  
Blogger Mətušélaḥ said...

Desert Rat,
No one comes here to read our comments. They come to Belmont because of Wretchard's excellent writing and analytical skills. And that writing is and had been thankfully one sided. Our sided.

Regards Cedarfard,
Let's try to think what would be an analogous response to his constant Jew baiting, in cyberspace as in real life.

7/31/2005 04:17:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Ask the 'Dixie Chicks'
Say what ever you want
Won't listen to their music again, if it comes on the radio, hit a button, any button.
Ms. Hanoi Jane, won't ever watch a movie, see a video or give a shi..

That is not Censorship, just good taste

7/31/2005 04:18:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Did I here you say "boy?"
LeRoy?

7/31/2005 04:19:00 PM  
Blogger Mətušélaḥ said...

Seems we have the answer:

But if he KNEW that I wanted him to CEASE & DESIST and he persisted. Well then, I just could be forced to let the boy go.

7/31/2005 04:20:00 PM  
Blogger luminary said...

A noble post. One Person.

Intended for noble readers.

I hope that this woman receives a donated liver.
I would like anyone in need of an organ to receive one.
The system should be getting better.
And perhaps in a small way it has by Wretchard’s posting.
Awareness has come a long way.

7/31/2005 04:21:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Killa,
I come here to gaze at your pretty face.

7/31/2005 04:22:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

pc
Read porker for allah and you'll get the balance.
Israel acts in it's own self interest. It survives.
The US acts in it's best interest. Often those interests coincide, sometimes they do not.
To have those instances when the interests diverge papered over does no one any good. It just feeds the paranoia
There is more than enough blame to go around.

7/31/2005 04:25:00 PM  
Blogger Mətušélaḥ said...

Hehe.
Doug, I got tired of showing off my pretty tail, and getting no offers. ;)

7/31/2005 04:25:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Not too hard to figure out where many pro Muslim, Anti America came from:
Saudi Money and Lefty Lawyers in the Governments employ.
(It's what enabled 9-11 for what that was worth.)
Minor Stuff.

7/31/2005 04:26:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

One of those multicolored jobs eh?
...got any hobnailed boots to go w/it?

7/31/2005 04:27:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"...lyin with his eyes while his hands are workin overtime,
a soap impression of his wife which he made, and
donated to the national trust"

7/31/2005 04:28:00 PM  
Blogger Mətušélaḥ said...

Desert Rat,
The relationship is not an equal one. And to pretend that is it, does no one any good.

7/31/2005 04:29:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

...while his hands are BUSY workin..

7/31/2005 04:29:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Don't start gettin JUDGEmental, killa.

7/31/2005 04:31:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

When the US Executive supported the Coup that brought Pinochet to power they had no way of knowing what the eventual outcome would be.
Luckily the outcome was fortuitous. Unlike the Coup we supported against the President of South Vietnam

7/31/2005 04:33:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

4:26
Not too hard to figure out where many pro Muslim, Anti America LAWs came from:

7/31/2005 04:34:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

you are saying that C4 and poker do not do verbal battle on an equal footing?
I think that some of the facts support C4 but he draws the wrong conclusions and answers from the data base.
To deny the data, though, is not the best course of action in refuting the faulty conclusion

7/31/2005 04:39:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Oh I think you mean Arabs & Israelis, not Porker and C4.

The Israelis have had a historicly bad deal across Europe.
The Palistinians have been abused by their Arab cousins and the UN. The Israelis are part of the problem, but also part of a solution.
The past 10 years of inaction is definately in the Palisitnians portfolio.

7/31/2005 04:46:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Rick will like that faulty connection line.
...and I'LL appreciate the Thorazine donation.

7/31/2005 04:47:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

The "Peace Process" has been a learning experience for those willing to see.
...which leaves out the NeoCommies, of course.
Rat,
Check out the Dr. Sanity link Rick put up.
She does a nice rundown on the lefts refusal to confront reality.

7/31/2005 04:50:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

The man in the crowd with the
multicolored mirror on his hobnail boots,
Lying with his eyes while his
hands are busy working overtime
A soap impression of his wife which
he ate and donated to the National Trust.
...Happiness is a warm gun

7/31/2005 05:00:00 PM  
Blogger Mətušélaḥ said...

What I find interesting about Cedarfard, is that his "data base" of dual-loyalty subversives excludes all Muslims. Why do you that is, Desert Rat?

7/31/2005 05:01:00 PM  
Blogger Mətušélaḥ said...

^think

7/31/2005 05:01:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

I think he sees things through a prisim of predetermination.
Whether it is Israel or Bush. The Army vs Navy funding disputes, priorities and capabilities of modern America. C4 takes the 'Conservative New Englander' position. A friend of mine from Conn. tracks just about the same course. Could be in the water.

7/31/2005 05:10:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Killa,
And don't forget he recommended Hezbollah for those in need of a pretty good police force.
Jeez.

7/31/2005 05:11:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Just who we need to body search those NYC commuters

7/31/2005 05:13:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

re, in the water,
(Like Ted Kennedy)
Howard Dean for President!

Steyn Says he really wasn't that bad a Governor.
...probably was more fiscally conservative than Bush.

But don't think Mark will be supporting him for POTUS.

7/31/2005 05:14:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

When Doug is King

7/31/2005 05:20:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Kool-aid, Kool-aid, tastes great
Wish I had some
Can't wait

7/31/2005 05:23:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Come Together!

7/31/2005 05:27:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

...in a manly sense.
No, I mean...
Crap.

7/31/2005 05:28:00 PM  
Blogger Rick Ballard said...

Here is another nice data point. Very good profile of the enemy.

via Neuro-Conservative

7/31/2005 05:32:00 PM  
Blogger Dymphna said...

This is amazing. A plea for information on a possible donor for a young woman who is dying has threaded a path all the way to Zionism. In the end, it all leads to The Entity, huh?

Cedarford, everytime you try to wrap your heart of stone in a flea-bitten piece of fur, it somehow slips off and there you are: Concrete Man.

As for you, my fine feathered Wretchard, I'll bet you put this up on your site and went off for the weekend, wondering what you'd find when you came home. Rather like I did with teenagers once, only to have to retrieve my car where it had been impounded.

As for the original theme here -- like the post??? -- I will continue my "superstitious" prayer. Superstition beats impotent rant any day.

When my daughter died suddenly in her sleep, one of my great regrets (and regret is a very different place than grief) was that she could not donate her corneas to someone. We used to laugh that she had such large, beautiful blue eyes and 20/20 vision that it would be a damn shame to waste them. But she was too long dead when we found her. Such are the vagaries of death...

I don't care who makes a mint from whatever harvested body parts are there to be had. As long as they are merely parts, and not a living being anymore. So thanks, new doctor. You provided this with some saving grace.

Oops. Is 'grace' superstitious, too? My bad.

~D

7/31/2005 05:55:00 PM  
Blogger Mətušélaḥ said...

Grace is not superstitious. You prove it.

I'm sorry for your loss.

7/31/2005 06:24:00 PM  
Blogger Mətušélaḥ said...

Desert Rat,
predetermination = islam

7/31/2005 06:31:00 PM  
Blogger Mətušélaḥ said...

Doug,
Hizbollah as police = Mafia as Senate

7/31/2005 06:35:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Lady ~D,
My point was that the only reason for a Scientist NOT to pray would be superstition.
---
(unless he's some wacko like Aristedes "Scientist" that acts like he's sure there is no god.
...and screws up his message with inaccurate bile in the process.

7/31/2005 07:10:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

7/31/2005 07:11:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Lady `D,
Check out my 3:30 AM on link below, and read the Gould link if you have time.
I always enjoyed Gould in Natural History, but never read his
NOMA-magisterium piece.
. Who Goes There .

7/31/2005 07:23:00 PM  
Blogger Aristides said...

Doug: dang, I had to read your post again. I was getting all revved up for a fight, 'til I realized the subject of the jab.

I find your lack of apostrophe disturbing.

7/31/2005 07:44:00 PM  
Blogger sugar said...

Not sure why she has a matter of days to live. My neighbor's kidneys both failed as well. He lived for about 5 more years after. He did dialysis about 3 times a week all that time.

7/31/2005 07:45:00 PM  
Blogger ledger said...

Dymphna, I tried to post some information which might stimulate some ideas on how to get this women a liver - but the tread was too far off-track.

As, to the actual problem of finding a liver for the woman my only suggestion to broaden the scope of search to the full Americas (Canada, USA, South America), then to Europe and the rest of the world. Next offer a compensation package for said procurement (their maybe some ethical problems but, give it a try).

Anyone else got a idea?

7/31/2005 07:47:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Notto:
"Always Disturb to the maximum extent possible!"
(w/in the real of absurdity, at least)

7/31/2005 07:49:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Bloomberg,
(that's bloomie in brain meltdown mode)
The Liver is the problem.

7/31/2005 07:50:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

~D,
Like 'Killa I too of course am sorry for your loss.
Only thing worse I can imagine was just shared with us the other day by Carridine: Kidnapping.
---
People endure that which seems way beyond my ability.

7/31/2005 07:56:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

7:49 PM, Motto, as in "My Motto"

7/31/2005 07:57:00 PM  
Blogger truepeers said...

The idea that Jews are significant beneficiaries of PC is laughable, another way of not explaining the relative tendency of Jews to be successful. No one who has checked out the lefty scene lately could believe it. Only Israel-hating Jews need apply there.

And yet it is certainly true that PC has its origins in the white guilt that followed the Holocaust and Hiroshima. However, the firstness of the Jews as the archetypal victims of the postmodern age soon enough led to the resentment that always attends firstness. PC is about everyone who is into victimary thinking envying and, eventually, resenting the powerful historical symbolism engendered by the Holocaust.

But there is more to it. As Adam Katz at http://prosperoicon.blogspot.com/ writes:

What outrages about Israel is that it accepts the premises of retaliation and deterrence, i.e., a fundamentally mimetic conception of social reality involving both a “primitive” (but the only real) concept of justice and a projection of the determination to “hold the line,” and it does so precisely at that moment when the world perceives that conception of reality as the primary source of violence in advanced societies and one that we must therefore supersede. Israel does not imagine for a moment--and I believe this is largely true even of most left-wing Israelis--that some larger institutional framework can take this responsibility out of its hands and redistribute authority so that nobody actually exercises it (the goal of what adherents of the human rights world picture like to call "consensus" and "multilateralism"). Only Israel prevents us from taking that next step beyond history! (Even with America, it can be imagined that a less “unilateralist” administration might be brought along—but I don’t want to deny that this is the same “stigma” that accounts for anti-Americanism as well). This fundamentally contingent and scenic relation to historical reality produces a constricted but liberating range of possibilities for public life, or range of renunciations required for genuine public life: from extreme equality embedded in solidarity (each and every one of us must be ready to give our life for, or place ourselves in the place of, any other, regardless of familial and communal bonds) to extreme freedom, embedded in accountability (each and every one of us must be prepared to be the one, the one who holds the line, the one who makes the critical decision without quite being qualified or prepared, the one who will emerge as iconic sign in the flow of events). And this is the mystical foundation of all Western (democratic and republican) politics.

Now, none of this negates the need for the Israelis to continue to conduct themselves so as to make reconciliation with a transformed Palestinian people and Arab/Muslim world possible, at some point, and without, of course, mortgaging their security to any particular “process.” It does mean, though, that resisting the South Africanizing of Israel is one of the highest priorities in contemporary politics, and that assertions of the self-evidency of the Palestinian question as the unsurpassable grievance consuming the Muslim world should not be rewarded with credibility. When we are told that we are in all this trouble because of Israel, our answer should be that we are slowly coming to realize that joining Israel on the front lines of the Western front of the Arab/Muslim civil war will ultimately restore us to our own responsibilities, which is a precondition of “weaponizing” all our other capacities.


It may well be the inability to think through the "logic" of victimary thinking that is behind the "paranoia" Rick observes. The proof, in my opinion, is the outrageous assertion that somehow the US does not - because it cannot due to the Dual Loyalists -act in its own self interest. Of course it acts in its own self interest as its duly chosen leaders see it. It just may be that they have a better grasp of the strategic and moral importance of Israel, and the need to give the pervasively antisemitic Arab world the shut up and grow up message, and not the yes to all their victimary thinking. It is ridiculous to claim that in valorizing Arab victimary thought one is working against PC.

And what do we mean by dual loyalties anyway? While anyone serving his nation is obliged to avoid treachery, is there something perverse, even remarkable, about having a range of loyalties and preferences? If war breaks out between Australia and Indonesia, I know which side my cultural sympathies will take. So what is the assumption behind the finger pointing at "dual loyalties"? That we betray the cause of the Big Momma UN if we show a preference for specific nations other than our own, instead of treating everyone as equally distant from our own when determining "global" values, or that we can only have sympathies for one, our own, nation? Talk about bipolar thinking.

7/31/2005 08:00:00 PM  
Blogger truepeers said...

Sorry for going OT, but I thought something needed to be said in response since I am perhaps partly responsible for provoking earlier outbursts.

7/31/2005 08:03:00 PM  
Blogger Aristides said...

Gould: "Scientists cannot claim higher insight into moral truth from any superior knowledge of the world's empirical constitution."

Can't we? Shan't we? This is just a blanket metaphysical assertion like Plato's forms. Built to be irrefutable because it removes the subject from the land of refutation. I understand this is the point of his NOMA idea, but that leaves us with the Muslims: stationary.

More Gould: "NOMA places equally strong restrictions upon the imperialistic aims of many scientists (particularly in suppressing claims for possession of moral truth based on superior understanding of factual truth in any subject).

NOMA does forbid a scientific entry into fields where many arrogant scientists love to walk, and yearn to control.

I do get discouraged when some of my colleagues tout their private atheism (their right, of course, and in many ways my own suspicion as well) as a panacea for human progress against an absurd caricature of "religion" erected as a straw man for rhetorical purposes."

When someone uses the words "restriction" and "forbid" when speaking about inquiry, my mind immediately rejects it like a bad enchilada.

I think Hayek is relevant:

"I will not deny that scientists as much as others are given to fads and fashions and that we have much reason to be cautious in accepting the conclusions that they draw from their latest theories. But the reasons for our reluctance must themselves be rational and must be kept separate from our regret that the new theories upset our cherished beliefs. I can have little patience with those who oppose, for instance, the theory of evolution or what are called "mechanistic" explanations of the phenomena of life because of certain moral consequences which at first seem to follow from these theories, and still less with those who regard it as irrelevant or impious to ask certain questions at all."

7/31/2005 08:18:00 PM  
Blogger Dymphna said...

Doug--

I'll check that out tomorrow. Thanks for the link.

Bloomie--

I don't think there's a way to cleanse the liver as dialysis does for the kidneys. What a cool idea, though. I also thought Hollymer's idea about a partial liver had actually been tried with some success. Maybe if the new doc comes back he can tell us...

I missed the Carradine reference to kidnapping. Now *there* is something worse than death...

Thanks to all for the condolences re my daughter Shelagh. She was bright and beautiful and she suffered a lot. Once when she was about six she asked a priest if he believed in Purgatory. When he said he did, she agreed with him and informed him that Purgatory was here and we were living it...

Anyway, I do feel for this woman's family and her fiance.

7/31/2005 08:20:00 PM  
Blogger Aristides said...

And here I was googling a man named 'Notto'.

7/31/2005 08:20:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

It's a girl, silly.
"A Nan Named Notto."
...You know how mean those frat boys can be when they are denied.

7/31/2005 08:34:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Yeah, truepeers,
There yah go again,
Veering off topic,
Have a little respect, ok?

7/31/2005 08:39:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

What is it that's Wrong with a
Bad Enchilada?
---
I thought we had evolved beyond Judgementalism.

7/31/2005 08:42:00 PM  
Blogger hollymer said...

Dymphna, I am so sorry about your daughter and it is wonderful that your response is to pray. I said a prayer for this woman and her family too. However, what has happened to this site. What should have been a discussion about how to help this woman turned into some weird rant about Jews and Israel. There is a time and place....is there not anyone reading this blog that has any ideas??? Sure this happens everyday but we now have a name and a face for this young woman. I will reiterate: can I or someone else give her a part of my liver????? Does anyone know someone in this field, can she get on another list. C4, get a grip and think of something positive.

7/31/2005 08:56:00 PM  
Blogger Charles said...

And yet it is certainly true that PC has its origins in the white guilt that followed the Holocaust and Hiroshima.
///////////////
It wasn't the Holocaust. Rather it was the McCarthy era. The liberals and communists gamed the Rosenburg executions as the beginning of pogrom USA style. Up until about the last ten years liberal jews always portrayed themselves within the Jewish community as the ones who staved off the US McCarthy pogrom.

However,

A pogrom was never in the cards. The Rosenburgs were guilty of treason. According to both KGB and NSA records McCarthy was right. The Roosevelt and Truman administrations were rank with Russian spies.

Today we have no concept of treason. We have no borders.

7/31/2005 09:58:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Charles, but that's a GOOD thing.
See my Kool Aid link above.
Everybody's a winner.
We Are The World.
(...I'm breaking into song, gotta go.)

7/31/2005 10:14:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Holly,
I think Wretch's main object was to get the word out, just in case.
Didn't expect the enlightened club members to come up w/a new solution.
If anyone here would know anything it would be the new guy, and he only added useful input about practical ethics & etc.

7/31/2005 10:19:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

FDR's Greatest Legacy:
Private Healthcare Solutions.
At it's height in 1952, Polio Struck 60,000 children in the US.
For Decade Before, it averaged 25k/year.
FDR was behind the March of Dimes, which eventually cared for folks and came up with a Vaccine,
All WITHOUT Govt. Intervention!
Believe it or not, some people are still living in Iron Lungs!
(Those are the exceptions, most either partially recovered or died.)
---
.Polio: An American Story.
by David M. Oshinsky

7/31/2005 10:28:00 PM  
Blogger truepeers said...

Charles,

we may both be right. the symbolic role of the Holocaust in postmodern thought did not develop immediately after the event. In fact, few people talked about it for twenty or thirty years after. Only more recently has it become a key symbol for the post-1968 postmodern victimary mentality, i.e. the symbolism of massed naked and starved bodies, reduced to victimhood for no other reason than their race (think of the countless leftist demonstrations where you have seen such symbolism of disempowered bodies evoked by those claiming they/we are the victim group of latter-day Nazis).

And you are surely right that the hysteria over/of McCarthyism was central to legitimizing the '68 generation, especially in the US.

As for treason, if it doesn't exist, it's time to reinvent it. That would be a postive contribution to the end of PC relativism and a recognition that 9/11 has initiated a new era.

7/31/2005 10:36:00 PM  
Blogger hollymer said...

Doug, you are right...Wretch most probably does not expect a solution to this poor woman's situation. Very interesting point on FDR, thanks.

Charles, the treason concept assumes that we are one country/people/ideology/culture. I think that the left has so multi-cultured us that there is not much of the "one" left. Even a disaster like 9/11 did not pull us together. Jimmy Carter should be at the top of a treason list yet he feels he can undermine a sitting President at will.

7/31/2005 11:57:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Hollymer,
Thanks, but of course you are right also, since all the off topic posts discourage folks from mining useful info like new guy and ledger provided.
I wish each new post had two threads, but don't think blogger provides that.
Back in the old internet days, there used to be a variety of free forums to be used that had neat stuff like threaded and nested formats and etc.
Think most of them probably went belly up.
Our Man Carter came out with ANOTHER Outrage today:
Calling Guantanamo an outrage, or some such.
I did not read since he makes me too angry/disgusted to function.
Such a despicable person he is.

8/01/2005 02:11:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

...and you are most definitely right about the dilution of our oneness as a nation and as people by the multicults.
Very sad and very dangerous.
---
So now I'm told it's supposed to be the:

GLOBAL STRUGGLE AGAINST VIOLENT EXTREMISM
Isn't that special.
So next year any talk show host that says GWOT or Islamofascist will be subject to losing his or her job, I guess.

8/01/2005 02:15:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Wonder how well we would have done in WWII if they had spent half their energy on nomenclature, and half on seeing to it that they were not offending anyone.
(other than right wing Christian extremists, of course.)

8/01/2005 02:17:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Your gonna love this 'Rat:
(worse even than it looked and we thought)

.Report: Iran Gay Teens Executed .
One teen, ISNA says was 18, the other was a minor, believed to be 16 or 17. The organization ran a picture of what it said was the execution on its Web site.

The English language Iran In Focus also reported the executions, saying the teens were hanged in public in the city square. It quotes sources as saying the teens were executed for having sex with another minor but this could not be confirmed. The report does not name the victim. Under Sharia law the victim of a sexual assault must also be executed.
Both news services say that prior to their execution, the teenagers were held in prison for 14 months, severely beaten and given the lash 228 times.

8/01/2005 03:51:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Hat Tip,
Dr. Sanity

8/01/2005 03:51:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Any of our gay groups this outspoken?
...yet.
The British LGBT rights group OutRage has called for sanctions against Iran. The organization has called for western states to break off diplomatic relations, impose trade sanctions and treat Iran as "a pariah state".
"This is just the latest barbarity by the Islamo-fascists in Iran,” said OutRage spokesperson Peter Tatchell.
"The entire country is a gigantic prison, with Islamic rule sustained by detention without trial, torture and state-sanctioned murder.
"According to Iranian human rights campaigners, over 4,000 lesbians and gay men have been executed since the Ayatollahs seized power in 1979," said Tatchell.
Iran In Focus reports that members of Iran’s parliament are applauding the court for carrying out the death sentence on the teens.
"These individuals were corrupt. Their sentence was carried out with the approval of the judiciary and it served them right,” the publication quotes Ali Asgari, a member of the Majlis Party Legal Affairs Committee.

8/01/2005 04:02:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

I hope Jimmy Carter doesn't have to read that:
They are knocking his great work, and his conception of what we should be like.
(arrived at by me by a process of elimination of all the things he says WE are doing wrong.)

8/01/2005 04:07:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Where's Mel Brooks when we need him?
The Gay Prince Bar Fight Scene!
(London) Qatar's 25 year old Crown Prince Tameem Bin Hamad Al-Thani has been outed by the Aljazeera television network.
The network reports that the prince and two other Qataris were involved in a bar fight at G.A.Y. one of the biggest gay nightclubs in Britain.
Aljazeera reports that the heir to the throne of Qatar and two others, one of whom as described as the prince's "partner" have been barred from the club.

8/01/2005 04:14:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Killing happy people, just because they are happy. Now that is the core of Mohammedism.

8/01/2005 06:29:00 AM  
Blogger TheNewGuy said...

There is no liver equivalent of dialysis.

The liver is an organ that one truly cannot live without, and hepatic failure is one of the uglier deaths one can experience. The liver not only metabolizes drugs and ammonia-containing metabolic by-products, it also helps regulate blood sugar and manufactures critical blood-clotting proteins.

In the United States, If you take all comers, alcoholic cirrhosis and the various flavors of hepatitis are generally the largest players in liver disease.

8/01/2005 06:29:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

new guy,
Could someone be kept alive temporarily with massive Blood
Replacement/Transfusions?
...not that it's a good idea.

8/01/2005 06:48:00 AM  
Blogger TheNewGuy said...

I apologize in advance for the overly technical nature of this post.

One frequently transfuses Packed Red Cells into liver patients. Their lack of blood clotting proteins (and frequent GI bleeding from esophageal varices) often results in life-threatening hemorrhage. The liver manufactures most of the critical proteins involved in the blood clotting cascade... your blood literally cannot clot without it.

One could attempt to give FFP, AKA "fresh frozen plasma," but those clotting factors are quickly consumed, resulting in need for more plasma, and so forth. Also, the enormous fluid volume in those endless units of FFP would quickly result in volume overload and heart failure, particularly since liver patients are often very edematous at baseline from oncotic factors.

The liver makes albumin and other plasma proteins, which are the primary constituents of the oncotic gradient. It is the relative absence of those proteins which results in anasarca, or generalized edema.

Many end-stage liver patients are on diuretics to keep their ascites (fluid in the abdomen) from literally accumulating such that it compromises respiration by interfering with diaphragmatic excursion.

I can't stress enough how many problems end-stage liver patients have, and they are truly insurmountable without a functioning organ.

8/01/2005 10:11:00 AM  
Blogger Squishy said...

So apparently Spain has a useful model for organ donation through its Organ Transplantation Network (OTN) - are hospitals in the US trying to raise the rate of organ donation through similar means?

also, I don't believe this has been addressed but everytime one reads about someone in need of an organ, the desperate situation inspires much painful sympathy and fearful and weary empathy and of course, and most important (at least for me), I always think "why is it not just formally presumed (i.e. through laws) that a dead human is a source for organs? The most profound benefit of such a thing would seem to be giving meaning to the tragic loss of one family, affirming quite powerfully that life does go on etc and I imagine at the least such a system could help them in their grief?

Also, a question for the doctor:

Do patients who die from chronic or terminal illnesses have fewer useful organs that could save the life of another? Do drug treatments often ravage so much of the body that the above system would not increase supply as the preferred donors are those brain-dead from freak and recent accidents?

8/01/2005 01:20:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

new guy,
Thanks.
The problems you posted are more than enough to convince me!
Makes every other organ seem like a minor Rube Goldberg affair!
...I had no idea the clotting factors were so quickly consumed.
Do we know the mechanisms of non steroidals wrt to them?

8/01/2005 07:08:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

I would hope people are allowed to choose some path other than waiting for the end results of liver failure, but not being legal, I guess it depends on the setting?

8/01/2005 07:11:00 PM  
Blogger TheNewGuy said...

Generally speaking, long-term illnesses are tougher on the organs, and young organs are almost always better than old.

The prototypical 17yo who eschews a helmet while riding his motorcycle is a perfect example. His organs are young and probably unaffected by chronic communicable diseases; if designated as an organ donor, he is likely to save many lives... most of the time.

I particularly recall a family whose teenage son committed suicide. This case was unique, because even though the initial shock hadn't even passed, it's the ONLY time a set of parents has ever literally grabbed me by the arm (before I could even open my mouth) and said "we want to donate his organs."

Can you imagine what a rare family it takes, when even in the midst of their personal grief and tragedy, unprompted, they insist on helping others? God bless those parents. I spent all night in the ICU with that unfortunate, bleeding young man, pouring blood into him to keep his organs alive (he was already brain-dead).

Unfortunately, as is sometimes the case in these situations, his heart couldn't be used, and neither could his lungs. The organs were in surprisingly poor shape for such a young man. They did take other parts, but some of the organs were simply not in usable shape.

I was pointedly questioned for using the dozen or so units of blood that he required. I stood my ground and defended my actions, with the rationale that donated blood is comparatively plentiful; transplantable organs are not.

I'd do it again.

8/01/2005 07:15:00 PM  
Blogger TV GUY said...

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Cape Cod
Cape Cod
Cape Cod
Cape Cod

6/03/2007 07:19:00 PM  

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