Saturday, June 18, 2005

Memory Hold the Door

The assassin of Col. James Rowe, the "political prisoner" Danilo Continente, is scheduled to be freed from prison on June 28th after serving his maximum sentence. Philippine President Fidel Ramos refused to pardon Continente during his term of office despite representations by 'human rights organizations'. But with his sentence served, Continente will soon be a free man. The left-leaning Philippine Daily Inquirer has started a countdown to the blessed moment.

In just nine days, Donato Continente becomes a free man. And for him, freedom means becoming a full-time father to his 6-year-old son. Continente, 43, one of two men convicted in the killing of US Army Col. James Rowe in 1989, is set to be released from the New Bilibid Prisons (NBP) in Muntinlupa on June 28. Bureau of Corrections records show that he has served the maximum sentence of 16 years.

His chief regret, the Inquirer says,  has been an inability to spend time with his son, conceived on a conjugal visit.

During the occasional visit, after the child had become comfortable with his father, they would spend the allotted eight hours chatting and frolicking in the prison's playground. "He would often ask me if it was really a prisoner because he couldn't see barred cells and barbed wire." ... Continente was initially convicted as a principal in the murder of Rowe, for which he was given a life sentence on Feb. 27, 1991. But upon review, the Supreme Court ruled in August 2000 that he was only an accomplice and lowered his sentence to 14 years. He was recommended for release thrice under the Ramos administration's amnesty program: In January 1993, by the Presidential Review Committee secretariat; in June 1993, by the Department of Justice, and in 1994, by the Presidential Committee for the Grant of Bail, Release on Pardon and Parole. But Continente remained behind bars, allegedly because of pressure from the US government.

The Left always kept the faith with Continente, who at the time of the murder was a staff member of the Philippine Collegian, the student newspaper of the national university, famous for its radical politics. Ever and again they clamored for his release as they are even now doing for terrorists imprisoned in Guantanamo Bay. The New York Times reports:

May 29 - In the last few months, the small commercial air service to the naval base at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, has been carrying people the military authorities had hoped would never be allowed there: American lawyers. And they have been arriving in increasing numbers, providing more than a third of about 530 remaining detainees with representation in federal court. Despite considerable obstacles and expenses, other lawyers are lining up to challenge the government's detention of people the military has called enemy combatants and possible terrorists.

It's a way of sending them their love, showing that they care. And they do. Describing the treatment of terrorists confined in Guantanamo, Sen. Richard J. Durbin (D-Ill.) said:

"If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control," he said, "you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime -- Pol Pot or others -- that had no concern for human beings."

In contrast, Colonel Nick Rowe's fate has always been to be forgotten, though he didn't seem to resent it. When Rowe was held captive as a POW in Vietnam, during which he suffered from dysentary, beri-beri and fungal attack -- diseases unknown in Durbin's Guantanamo -- he protected his fellow prisoners by concealing his identity as a Special Forces Officer, which if revealed would single them out for special cruelty. His deception worked for months. But the Left did not forget.

Acting on a request from the North Vietnamese, students in a so-called anti-war organization in the United States researched public records and formulated biographies on Americans captured in Vietnam. After reading Lt. Rowe's biography, his Viet Cong captors became furious. They marched him into a cramped bamboo hut and forced him to sit on the damp clay floor. Several high ranking Viet Cong officials were staring down at Lt. Rowe. They held out a piece of typed onion skin paper.

"The peace and justice loving friends, of the National Liberation Front, who live in America, have provided us with information which leads us to believe you have lied to us," they informed Lt. Rowe. "According to what we know, you are not an engineer . . . you have much military experience which you deny . . . You were an officer of the American Special Forces."

Lt. Rowe sat dumbfounded, unable to comprehend that his own people would betray him. He felt it was over. He had lied to the communists for five years. Worse in their eyes, the Viet Cong had believed him. They had lost face and, for that, he would be punished. Soon after, the Viet Cong Central Committee for the National Liberation Front sent orders to Rowe's camp ordering the cadre to execute the uncooperative American prisoner.

On the day Lt. Rowe was being led to a destination for execution, he and his small group of guards were caught on the edge of an American B-52 saturation bombing raid. The guards scattered, leaving Lt. Rowe with only one. Lt. Rowe knew he had nothing to lose. He bided his time until the remaining guard carelessly moved to Rowe's front, whereupon Lt. Rowe bludgeoned him with a log and escaped. Not only did Lt. Rowe survive his ordeal as a POW, he escaped and emerged stronger than before his capture, more committed to the American ideal and more convinced than ever that what the communists had planned for Vietnam and the world was a blueprint for tyranny and human suffering. Nick Rowe frustrated the communists. They never broke him. They never shook his faith in the American system. He was the quintessential American fighting man, unable to be broken mentally or physically.

The communists, however, never forgot Lt. Nick Rowe. They never forgot the threat men such as he posed to them and their view of world domination. Shortly before 7 a.m. on April 21, 1989, a small white car pulled alongside a gray, chauffeur-driven vehicle in a traffic circle in the Manila suburb of Quezon City. The barrels of an M-16 rifle and a .45-caliber pistol poked out the window of the white car and spit out more than two dozen shots. Twenty-one of them hit the gray car. One of the rounds hit Col. James "Nick" Rowe in the head, killing him instantly. The hooded NPA killers had ties to the communist Vietnamese, Rowe's old enemies in Vietnam. It took the communists nearly 25 years, but they finally silenced Nick Rowe. What they could not do in a jungle cage in South Vietnam's U Minh Forest through torture, intimidation, and political indoctrination, they did with a .45 and an American-made M-16 on the streets of Manila.

His killer will be free in 9 days.

157 Comments:

Blogger gbaikie said...

But look at from the point of view of the communists, they lost everything. Worst, some still cling on, with no hope, nothing but delusion.
All these demented souls have left is cheerleading for Jihadists.

That's got to hurt at some level- assuming the useful idiots have a semblance of reasoning.

6/18/2005 11:26:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"His killer will be free in 9 days."
But now he can frolick with his young son every day.
All's well that ends well.

6/18/2005 11:32:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Last summer, for the first time, the Supreme Court took an active role in a war, ruling that foreign illegal combatants have due-process rights under the Constitution. The Court largely left it to the lower courts to determine those rights, and this week a Carter judge, in a stunning decision, ruled that the Fifth Amendment’s Due Process Clause — presumably, nothing less than the full array of due-process rights belonging to U.S. citizens — applies to al-Qaeda and Taliban detainees.
---
As I state in the book, activist judges have taken over school systems, prisons, private-sector hiring and firing practices, and farm quotas. They have ordered local governments to raise property taxes and states to grant benefits to illegal immigrants; they have upheld severe limits on political speech, promoted racial discrimination in admissions policies, endorsed the seizure of private property without just compensation, struck a federal ban on partial-birth abortion, and intervene in the electoral process.

6/18/2005 11:46:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

We should demand due process rights and lawyers for all POW's and illegal combatants no matter where they are detained.
It is one world.

6/18/2005 11:48:00 PM  
Blogger 49erDweet said...

Absolutely bogswoggling! A hero erased by callow youth. Some how, some where, some day, some way those idiots have to pay! Dearly. With the lives of their loved ones, too. Slow, painful deaths. Hopelessness. Bitter tears. No mercy. The only just outcome.

If we could but send our childish (regardless of age) radical Yankee liberals (with their Gitmo lawyer pals) to Canada, where they can freely participate in and enjoy the Liberal wet dream to their hearts content. We might then exchange them for the remaining conservative Canucks who despair of ever again in this century winning a national election.

We might all profitably occupy our time and simply wait out a decade or so, until the northern mob simply eradicates itself, and then when all is quiet save the bellowing of the moose, send 'restoral' teams back up north to bury the dead, reconstruct the place, and once again bring sanity back to the bulk of the northern hemisphere.

6/18/2005 11:55:00 PM  
Blogger It's MY blog too! said...

Thanks, Wretchard, for informing us of the life of Col. Rowe. He is a true American hero.

The execrable anti-war protesters who betrayed him are worthy of our most profound contempt.

In this regard, I am reminded of the words of the mortally wounded Constable in Shakespeare's Henry V as he surveys the defeat of his fellow countrymen on the battlefield of Agincourt: "Shame, and eternal shame."

6/19/2005 12:06:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Being a leftist means never admitting error.
Being a leftist means never having to say you're sorry.
Being a leftist means you are shameLESS.

6/19/2005 12:22:00 AM  
Blogger wretchard said...

There was a old movie called the "Marathon Man", based on a book by the same name, premised on the idea that -- this was in the 80s -- Nazis still lived among us. Careful, fastidious men with an outwardly avuncular appearance. The peace activists who researched the biographies of American POWs, the better to torture them, might be lunching today in the perfectly respectable setting of a faculty dining club or at a cafe, exquisitely aware of the difference between varieties of mountain grown coffee. Quiet, cultured and serene. Like Szell.

Many years ago I sat opposite an avowed central committee member of a Third World Communist party and asked him if he would like to hear me demonstrate the existence of God. He waved me on. "If," I said, "I could prove the existence of the Devil, then God must exist or the Devil would already be omnipotent." "Go on". Then I leaned forward and said, "But the devil exists because there must be a hell to house people like you."

6/19/2005 03:03:00 AM  
Blogger CatoRenasci said...

Wretchard,

Thank you for this post. I have known much about the Vietnam War, and much about the anti-war movement, but did not know about Col Rowe, and I did not know about the leftist American 'peace advocates' providing specific information about individual American officers and soliders to the enemy.

There is no statute of limitation on treason. Vietnam was a long time ago, and the war was unpopular, but we should distinguish between opposition to the war -- expressing legitmate dissent here at home, even if it undermined the war effort -- and actively working in concrete ways to directly and knowingly assist our enemies.

Given the FBI's extensive domestic surveillance effort at the time, I suspect some of those who provided such information to the North Vietnamese could be identified. Serious thought should be given to charging them with treason.

The current anti-war movement, which now seems to encompass the mainstream of the Democratic Party, borders on treason. While Durbin is protected by the speech and debate clause for what he says in Congress, what he says elsewhere is not.

People should know that freedom of speech means the right to say what you please without censorship, not the right to say what you please without consequences: the government has no right to prevent you ahead of time for making a treasonous speech, but certainly has the right to punish you for that treason after the fact.

As much as we need to be zealous in guarding our liberties, we need to become absolutely ruthless in destroying our avowed enemies. As Schiller put it Im Staub mit alle Feinden Brandenburgs (to paraphrase and update: Into dust with all of the enemies of America!

6/19/2005 04:18:00 AM  
Blogger Karridine said...

Friends, this story is moving, inspiring! The Communists and Islamo-fascists are NOT joking! They are committed to getting their heel on our throats.

I received an honorable discharge after 4 years of uniformed service, but that didn't in any way slow or release me from a lifetime of service in defense of Freedom!

6/19/2005 05:02:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

If there really was a possibility of a fourth conjecture, this fellow, Danilo Continente, is deserving of his own, private, drive-by

6/19/2005 06:34:00 AM  
Blogger Peter UK said...

Finding out the names of those ho researched Col Rowe would seem an ideal project for the blogosphere.Ayone got a starting point.

6/19/2005 06:38:00 AM  
Blogger ed said...

Hmmmm.

"Acting on a request from the North Vietnamese, students in a so-called anti-war organization in the United States researched public records and formulated biographies on Americans captured in Vietnam. "

I had no idea. Who are these people and where are they now? Are they in elected office?

6/19/2005 09:36:00 AM  
Blogger Mike H. said...

gbaikie, "do tha name 'Dip Durbin' mean anything to ya?"

6/19/2005 10:08:00 AM  
Blogger Red River said...

I have a question.

Has this man been tried in a US Court for the murder of Rowe?

How about hiring a bounty hunter to get him and bring him back to the US to stand trial?

What about a Civil Case to go after him?

Its not over.

6/19/2005 10:10:00 AM  
Blogger Peter UK said...

Ed,
As mentioned in the comment above you,this should not be allowed to rest.This is on a level with Kerry's betrayal of his comrades.
How many died because of these student peaceniks,how many were tortured?
In moe enlightened times these were the actions of traitors.

6/19/2005 10:18:00 AM  
Blogger Peter UK said...

Red River,
Finding the students who betrayed him would be a meet offering to his spirit.

6/19/2005 10:25:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

A meeting with meat.

6/19/2005 10:34:00 AM  
Blogger Steven Den Beste said...

If Continente was in prison for 16 years, how does he have a six year old son?

6/19/2005 10:35:00 AM  
Blogger Steven Den Beste said...

Sorry, I just noticed the answer in Wretchard's post.

6/19/2005 10:38:00 AM  
Blogger al fin said...

Is it time for international vigilantes, without ties to any government, to hunt down and kill these creatures one by one?

Such vigilantes would be on the order of "The Shootist", the fictional gunman of the american west who used the last of his days dying of cancer to clean a corrupt western town of its miscreants.

Most westerners are not willing to sacrifice their lives even for a good cause. To die in a foreign country among comrades is one thing. To die in a foreign country despised and alone is something else.

Yet it seems that if this three way conflict continues on for much longer, such non-state vigilantes may very well appear.

6/19/2005 11:15:00 AM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

I rather think Jane Fonda might have a good idea as to who the "students" were/are. She says now that she regrets what she did then. This would be an excellent opportunity for her to demonstrate that her regret is genuine.

6/19/2005 11:16:00 AM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

Does the "Freedom of Information" act provide that one can access who-else has put in for what "information" and when?

6/19/2005 11:18:00 AM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

The City of Paris has announced that it will open its Police Department files which will delineate which French were working with the Nazi's, who turned who in and when, and who was an active collaborator and responsible for the murder of French Jews during WW2.

I can think of no better object lesson for today's generation of Loony Liberal Lefties than if the "students" who turned over the biographies of such men as Colonel Rowe to the North Vietnamese were publicly named and vilified now, 30 years later.

I wonder if those "students" are successful now and would be embarrassed by their actions then. My bet is that they are like Ward Churchill, have burrowed into respectable campus-life and are busily brainwashing a new generation of sweet young things into self-hatred and America-loathing.

6/19/2005 11:23:00 AM  
Blogger john said...

John Mahoney, Atoka Tennessee
bs322926@aol.com

Tragic, of course. An honest question: What was Col. Rowe doing in the
Philippines? Vacation? It's hard to imagine some unforgetting Red menace
that finally tracked him down for the missed execution date in Vietnam.

But it's hard to know for sure. Here's another version of the story.

"Deep Penetration and Its Aftermath"

This is where we might contextualize the killing of the American CIA agent
Col. Nick Rowe on April 21, 1989. I am not aware of the NPA or CPP
acknowledging that they had a hand in this incident, but two persons - Donato
Continente and Juanito Itaas - have been imprisoned now for several years,
charged with the deed. Who is Col. Rowe? According to James Neilson's article
in the U.S. Veteran News and Report, "A highly decorated Green Beret and
Vietnam veteran who survived five years of captivity in a Viet Cong prison
camp, Rowe was chief of the army division of the Joint U.S. Military Advisory
Group (JUSMAG) since 1987 and was providing counter-insurgency training for
the Philippine military. In this capacity, he worked closely with the CIA,
and was involved in its nearly decade-old program to penetrate the NPA and
its parent communist party, in conjunction with Philippine's own intelligence
organizations." Before he was killed by unknown assailants, Col. Rowe had
already warned the U.S. State Department that he was targetted to be hit by
the enemy; however, the Defense Intelligence Agency did not do anything
because they did not want Rowe, the control officer and trainer of agents, to
withdraw any of the agents they had infiltrated into the NPA who were
relaying information about "possible growing Cuban involvement with the NPA."
Neilson writes: "Six months before Rowe's murder, the DIA had learned that
Cuban advisors appeared to be assisting the NPA in the South-Central Luzon
province, one of the two provinces where the NPA was focusing on ferreting
out CIA agents within its ranks." Col. Rowe died as a combatant in the war
against what the U.S. called "terrorists," whether it was the NPA or some
other group.

The Two years earlier, the NDF had taken two prisoners of war, a police chief
inspector and a Philippine Army intelligence Officer, who were under the
custody of the New People Army (see NDF Press Statement of May 17, 2000). The
NDF was trying to negotiate with the Estrada administration for their
release, but in the attempt of the government to rescue them, one was killed,
and the other was later released. Why Col. Rowe was killed, and not captured
- assuming the NPA was involved - has not yet been explained. Given the state
of belligerency existing between the government allied with the U.S. and the
revolutionary forces, Col. Rowe would be a casualty of war, not a victim of
terrorism.

http://www.leftcurve.org/LC28WebPages/ImperialistWar.html

6/19/2005 11:26:00 AM  
Blogger 11A5S said...

I wish that I had two or three days to go to the library because I'm not finding much on line. Some places that I would recommend looking for the names on the "peace" activists that ratted out Rowe are

* The SDS had a monthly bulletin. I'll bet that many of the more "progressive" universities have copies. It's possible that they documented any projects like the one that fingered Rowe.

* Rowe's book, which Amazon stocks and which I am ordering.

* This website indicates that it was a anti-war delegation and not a group of researchers in the US that ratted out Rowe. The NYT microfilms in any university library for 1967-68 would probably document any groups that made the pilgrimage to Hanoi.

6/19/2005 11:27:00 AM  
Blogger B. Hoffman said...

I am proud to have served with Col. James "Nick" Rowe in the Philippines. Through knowing him, I know that He held no contempt toward his captors. Nor, do I feel, would he hold any contempt for his killers. Otherwise, I would be on my way to the Philippines now. His contempt was towards ideoliges and governments that oppress and enslave their people. In a strange way, his killers served the cause of freedom by making "Nick" immortal.

6/19/2005 11:57:00 AM  
Blogger Peter UK said...

Nahncee,
These "students" ar no different to any other collaborators,perhaps worse because for them there were no consequences.They just did their grubby little deed for the cause and burrowed back into society.They will have been living the high life in the sixties whilst some poor grunt was being beaten with bamboo canes and living in the mud.When these men returned they were outcasts and reviled.
In away I have more respect for John Walker at least he put himself on the line.
There should be records if they have been retained,they will have been paper records which often had to be signed for or signed in and out.They might be on microfiche now.

6/19/2005 12:08:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Col. James "Nick" Rowe had years to hunt down the people that "gave him up" but it seems he never did.

Better to spend the time working against Todays defeatists, not the Grey Beards of Yesterday. If they happen to overlap, all well and good.

It seems more appropriate to what he was about.

6/19/2005 12:16:00 PM  
Blogger Peter UK said...

Desert Rat
Yesterdays deafeatists are the ones who created todays deafeatists.They are the ones at the top of many left wing organisations undermining the WoT.
They are not studying it now they are running it.
The fact that it is no longer possible to betray ones fellow citizens with impunity might be a salutory lesson to those doing so now.

6/19/2005 12:26:00 PM  
Blogger Peter UK said...

Desert Rat,
I might add that you had one of those student peaceniks stand as President.It isn't over yet.

6/19/2005 12:29:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

As I said, if there is overlap between the two groups, by all means put those guys at the top of the list.
But to spend alot of time seeking out Ms Fondass's fellow travelers seems to be a long hard slog, without much chance of real success.
Better, I think, to work on things like Border Security. A real issue with real world challenges that needs all the support that can be gathered.

6/19/2005 12:33:00 PM  
Blogger Peter UK said...

Desert Rat,
The internet can't do a thing about border security but it can ferret out and name names.As I said earlier this is a job for the blogosphere.

6/19/2005 12:48:00 PM  
Blogger wretchard said...

BTW,

Vigilante justice is a bad idea which will backfire. The real and hard task is to strip away the mantle of morality with which these people have cloaked themselves. Because it is the idea they bear which in itself kills; which will go one long after the human host in which it lodged has died. Did you think I was kidding when I argued with the communist about the existence of the devil? English has one linguistic limitation: it has no way of referring to the second person in the plural. Once you are alone with an evil man, there are three of you.

6/19/2005 01:49:00 PM  
Blogger 11A5S said...

Maybe the best way to strip them of their legitimacy is to establish accountability? Perhaps there is a "Golden Chain" within the left? There is some good leadership within the Tranzi left. I've seen its results and have been consistently impressed over the years. That quality of leadership is not coming from the 20-somethings posting on Kos and DU. I don't think that it's even coming from MoveOn. Those are just the foot soldiers and staff officers. The strategoi are battle hardened and hidden. Some we know, like Soros. Others are less visible.

Where are the SDS activists now? Are they making policy in State? Running top law firms? In charge of daddy's bank? Sometimes you have to go back to the beginning to understand the present.

The Internet does not provide us with perfect information. But it gives us more perfect information. In a battle for Truth and Civilization, I would think that information is your greatest weapon.

6/19/2005 02:30:00 PM  
Blogger Mr. Hawaii said...

Blogosphere research on betrayers like this would be difficult even if it were related to the WoT, happening when it did during Vietnam just makes it worse. It would almost be dumb luck if you stumbled across anything related in a library. The trick would be to know someone who knows someone who knows someone. Maybe pick the brains of the people who maintain sites like discoverthenetwork.org and such.

6/19/2005 02:58:00 PM  
Blogger Peter UK said...

MrHawaii,
Exactly what the internet is good for

6/19/2005 03:10:00 PM  
Blogger ledger said...

I too had not heard the story of Col. Rowe. And, it appears the punishment doesn't fit the crime. I also believe appeasement (or no action) is a bad policy. Some action should be taken.

CatoRenasci, Red River, Peter, 11A5S and desert rat have some good ideas. As for "vigilante justice" I think it's just a mater of definition. In notice Leftcurve.org defines a drive by shooting not as vigilante justice but "...Col. Rowe would be a causality of war..." It would be ironic if Danilo Continente met his death the same way Col. Rowe did. Would Leftcurve label Danilo Continente "a causality of war?"

6/19/2005 03:25:00 PM  
Blogger Peter UK said...

Continente should, at least, spend the rest of his life looking under his car .

6/19/2005 03:34:00 PM  
Blogger Mescalero said...

This guy may think he's free from retribution. If he ever enters the US, he'd better think twice!

6/19/2005 05:35:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Mescal
He have to be trippin' to get to US.
Act of War or not. Is that War with the NPA still engaged? So many wars, so little time. Hard to keep track of them all.
Or are they all just part of the proxy war. In this case the NPA is/was a proxy for whom?

The Blogs are much better suited to driving an issue than conducting historical research.
Granted the two can and do advance together, but the ability to reach large numbers of readers with a real time risk reward program is the Enets power.
So far we have seen it work to ferret the truth from MSM misdirection attempts. Operating as a reactionary force. Soon it will begin to be used in a Call for Action mode.
Don't let the good guys get caught behind the curve.
Believe in the political power of communication, that is where the future lies, in our world anyway.

6/19/2005 07:11:00 PM  
Blogger Timbeaux said...

Goosebumps, Wretchard. Goosebumps.....you outdo yourself.

6/19/2005 09:08:00 PM  
Blogger John Schulien said...

Thanks for the fantastic article.

Contrast this post, if you will, with this reprehensable smear, which is the Microsoft Encarta encyclopedia entry describing the United States armed forces in Vietnam.

6/19/2005 09:26:00 PM  
Blogger Mətušélaḥ said...

The barrels of an M-16 rifle and a .45-caliber pistol poked out the window of the white car and spit out more than two dozen shots. Twenty-one of them hit the gray car. One of the rounds hit Col. James "Nick" Rowe in the head, killing him instantly.

What do you call a stalker's stalker?

6/19/2005 10:13:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

a sniper

6/19/2005 10:55:00 PM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

Is there any reason we can't focus on border security, immigration, AND SDS operatives from the 1960's all at once? After all, we are in the age of multi-tasking.

Is Fonda's ex-husband, Tom Hayden, still around and doing good public deeds?

And it seems to me that defining "vigilantism" might be just as hard as defining "victory".

6/19/2005 11:13:00 PM  
Blogger wretchard said...

That era is probably closed except to an ex-insider. David Horowitz is an example of a man who was once part of that scene, rejected it utterly and like the Ancient Mariner dauntlessly tells his tale as a kind of penance and redemption.

The texture of his reminiscences and their extent hint at what that world was like. It was tremendously exciting, not in the least because there was real treason, real danger at the edges. People knew where not to look because they didn't want to know, didn't want to believe, didn't want to see the reflection in the mirror.

People coming out of that time are still entangled in web of loyalties and conflicts. People they know and may have loved, loved with ardor of first love, are seamed with darkness now in retrospect. Many will go to their graves silent out of a loyalty which is a memory which is the last token of lost youth.

The Nazis were like that too, if you can look beyond their cartoon representation. "Ich hatt einen kameraden". The snows of Russia and summer in Paris all merging into one. I read somewhere that one reason why the death penalty was abolished in post-war Europe was to tacitly protect war criminals. What did the hippies say? "We have met the enemy and he is us?" Irony. Irony.

6/19/2005 11:39:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Pretty funny: Will be interesting to see how long ago Wretch made his post:
Here's the one I just wrote prior to refreshing the page:
---
One nice thing about these brave ex SDS patriots is how well they have been rewarded in academia, publishing, and etc.
Not like you have to ferret out some homeless, hopeless loser hiding out somewhere.
Remember two years ago or so the "ex" weatherman living the life of riley as a professor in Africa?
And before that his compatriot, the Matron from the Northeast, living as a respectable wife of a Doctor and mother of a family of yet more little patriots.
Since they are now in a legally authorized detention facility (aka Jail/Prison) had they been tracked down by ruthless bloggers I don't think that would qualify as vigilantism.
The question then becomes however, if bloggers did it would the government ever SUBMIT to carrying out their responsibility to apprehend said criminals?
As we saw repeatedly in the 90's they rarely did it when the folks were found out by CIA or FBI agents.

6/19/2005 11:46:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

When I copied from Notepad, I missed the first line:
---
I'm sure David Horowitz knows someone that knows someone, even if he is not (yet) aware of it.

6/19/2005 11:48:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"was real treason, real danger at the edges"
---
But Dave's the only public figure I am aware of that ADMITS it.

6/19/2005 11:51:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

What did the hippies say? "We have met the enemy and he is us?
"
Shamelessly stolen from Pogo.

6/19/2005 11:56:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

6/20/2005 12:02:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

"As we saw repeatedly in the 90's they rarely did it when the folks were found out by CIA or FBI agents."
---
I guess I should ammend that to specify *foreign terrorists*.
They were a little more ruthless when pursuing ex-domestic terrorists who no longer posed grave danger in the immediate future.
The Gorelick Years.
How will history look back on current times?

6/20/2005 12:03:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

"People knew where not to look because they didn't want to know, didn't want to believe, didn't want to see the reflection in the mirror.
"
---
Another tactic is to look squarely at something, and convince yourself that it's not really that bad:
How could it be?
If you know, like and are comfortable with someone, how could he be engaged in EVIL?

6/20/2005 12:29:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Dave had pangs of conscience about engaging in that tactic:
I wonder what those still in denial do with those?
...or do they not experience them?
Or do they just CLAIM not to experience them?
...gets complicated and confusing.
Thus the good sense involved in never getting involved to begin with!

6/20/2005 01:00:00 AM  
Blogger Buffy said...

I expect the general lawlessness in the third world to increase even more than it already has. Anyone from more civilized countries who goes there for any reason whether to help or to spy or whatever is risking their life.
With that background level of violence any actions by vigilantes would hardly be noticed. Murderers who are not punished properly by legal authorities who are terminated with extreme prejudice, will only elicit shrugs and chuckles.

6/20/2005 04:45:00 AM  
Blogger Peter UK said...

It has to remembered that there will be a proportion of those who collaborated with the Viet Cong will not have changed their belief,some will be NGOs,Academia and Government,they were International Socialists then and they are International Socialists now.
The only difference is instead of having the Viet Cong as the spearhead of the proletarian class war to destroy capitalism,they have the Jihad.
Examine the connections between the Socialist Workers Party and the Muslim Brotherhood.
They are not old Grey Beards,they are your Senator,your Bank Manager,your Doctor,the professor at your kids University.
I remember the damage the Cambridge spys did the hunkered down and did their bit for the cause.

6/20/2005 05:27:00 AM  
Blogger Anointiata Delenda Est said...

Memory, Hold the Door - to the Madhouse

While we forget our heros, we laud crap. To see faux memory in action, see Mourning sickness is a religion. It's from the BBC, but it's so bleeding obvious even they got it right.

Still make you sick, though.

I'm reading "Carnage and Culture" by Victor Davis Hanson. There is a lot of stuff in there about where we've come from, who we are. Some of it is overstated - but I liked to hear our stories, our culture being talked about. It made me realise that we (The West) are in danger, not from Al Quada, but from the loss of our stories. Of course, every multi-culti story will be preserved, feted even, because barbarians were so good until whitey came along and spoiled it for everybody. Sadly, Col Rowe's story will be lost.

The most dangerous enemy is within - those who hate the west because they hate the modern World.


ADE

6/20/2005 05:35:00 AM  
Blogger Peter UK said...

Whilst not implying in anyway that the people or the organistion were involved.Please have a look and examine the history.
of activism

6/20/2005 05:47:00 AM  
Blogger Anointiata Delenda Est said...

Peter UK

There you have it in your link. Faux memory. Hatred of the West. Lost stories. No idea of who we are. Phony 'compassion'.

Using the freedoms protected by the sons of the prairies to defeat the them.

We are going mad. Where is Churchill when you need him most? Cigar, bottle of brandy, two fingers, and lest they don't get it, Dresden.

ADE

6/20/2005 05:59:00 AM  
Blogger RWE said...

Thanks, Wretchard. They may have tortured Col Rowe but they did not break him. They may have killed his body but his spirit lives on, thanks, in no small part, to people like you.
All of this brings something to mind. There are a number of books out on the American communist movement: Horowitz's books and others that reveal not only the known history but what classified sources such as the KGB files and Venona intercepts uncovered; I have most of them on the shelf (Okay, and stacked on the floor in the living room). But has anyone written a real history of the antiwar movement? Who they were, what they did, why they really did it, and who they got paid by? And where they are now? The Soviet tentacles into the American left were revealed in the mid-80's - and laughed off for the most part. It is about time someone put it all together. Ann Coulter and Michelle Malkin should team up and do a book (I just wish they would at least do a swimsuit calendar).

6/20/2005 06:18:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Yeah, they're babes, alright. This thread has some really, really good writing--and not just the host's. Must be the subject. Bitter elegy, betrayal, redemption (Horowitz)...major themes.

6/20/2005 08:13:00 AM  
Blogger Lucius Cornelius said...

Kill the bastard! Hunt him down and kill him. Kill him in front of his son. Kill him slowly and painfully.

This killer is a terrorist and is outside the law. He should not benefit from legal process.

6/20/2005 08:54:00 AM  
Blogger Peter UK said...

We know where thes people are now where were they in the
Sixties

6/20/2005 09:36:00 AM  
Blogger Dan said...

Define terrorists as pirates at the UN--i.e enemies of humanity--and this will all be over sooner.

6/20/2005 10:04:00 AM  
Blogger Buddy Larsen said...

Wonder if Piracy is still on the books anywhere as an automatic death sentence crime? These are the still the Barbary Pirates, after all.

6/20/2005 10:57:00 AM  
Blogger StoutFellow said...

Peter,

Thanks for your 'Sixties' link. We have met the enemy and the enemy is Michael Ratner, William Kunstler et. al.

On 9/11 our Islamist enemies made abundantly clear their wish to bring the U.S. to its knees. And since shortly after that horrific day, Michael Ratner has been assisting them.

That's only natural, since both he and the Islamists share the same enemy.



Incredible. I can only conclude that one good totalitarian ideology deserves another. Godless Communists and homicidal Theocrats united against individual liberty. It's almost mind boggling.

6/20/2005 11:01:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

OT
Buddy, and any other Goldberg family fans, don't miss:
. no one ever said the hop bird had to hop alone .
Has anyone found anything written by Lucianne?
---

6/20/2005 11:11:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

6/20/2005 11:15:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Michael Ratner is a lawyer who began his legal career in the late 1960s at the National Lawyers Guild, a Soviet created front group which still embraces its Communist heritage. He worked his way up through the NLG’s radical ranks to become its president, then moved on to hold the same position at the Center for Constitutional Rights (CCR), which share's the NLG's anti-American radicalism and was founded by pro-Castro lawyers Arthur Kinoy and William Kunstler. Among its many outrages, the CCR has defended domestic and international terrorists, and has honored Ratner's NLG colleague and convicted terrorist enabler Lynne Stewart, a modern Legal Left idol. Since 9/11, Ratner and his comrades have attempted to extend undeserved “civil rights” on Islamist murderers with notable success. On this front, Ratner and the Legal Left have dealt America its few setbacks in the War on Terror.
Here's Frontpage Mag on RATner:
The Man Behind the Attack on Guantanamo

6/20/2005 11:18:00 AM  
Blogger jp said...

I have posted dozens of times now, on my belief that for 60 years, the US governments pursued a policy of stability, rather than that of freedom for the tyrranized peoples of the middle east. 911 resulted from that dereliction of duty to spread freedom throughout the world.
Now today, Secretary Rice speaks the same words:


http://americansforfreedom.blogspot.com/2005/06/we-have-made-mistakes-but-we-are-now.html

cheers
jp

6/20/2005 11:36:00 AM  
Blogger Jennifer said...

Frolicking with his young son should not be an option. Col. Rowe had kids...

The killer should be exterminated.

Jennifer Martinez sends

6/20/2005 11:42:00 AM  
Blogger RWE said...

Peter - thanks for that link. I had no idea that someone had a website dedicated to simply telling the truth about the "antiwar" left. I had planned to create a similar website listing the names and corporate affiliations of the lawyers who opposed military absentee votes in Florida in the 2000 election - and then I found out that the voting authorities had neglected to collect that particular information.
In the early 1940's George Orwell said that to be pacifist was to be objectively pro-fascist. Today’s anti-war left starts out being at best objectively pro-fascist and runs the gamut from that to outright pro-fascist. It is way past time that someone called them on that - and made them pay.

6/20/2005 11:46:00 AM  
Blogger Mətušélaḥ said...

rwe said... In the early 1940's George Orwell said that to be pacifist was to be objectively pro-fascist. Today’s anti-war left starts out being at best objectively pro-fascist and runs the gamut from that to outright pro-fascist. It is way past time that someone called them on that - and made them pay.


VDH says it better than I ever could:

"Our own fundamentalist Left is in lockstep with Wahhabist reductionism — in its similar instinctive distrust of Western culture. Both blame the United States and excuse culpability on the part of Islamists. The more left-wing the Westerner, the more tolerant he is of right-wing Islamic extremism; the more liberal the Arab, the more likely he is to agree with conservative Westerners about the real source of Middle Eastern pathology."
.
.
http://victorhanson.com/articles/hanson061705.html

6/20/2005 12:15:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

RWE said,
"the names and corporate affiliations of the lawyers who opposed military absentee votes in Florida in the 2000 election - and then I found out that the voting authorities had neglected to collect that particular information. "
---
That would be the DEMOCRAT dominated authoritities that stole the election for GWB.

6/20/2005 12:44:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Maybe they really are authoritities.
Certainly not real men.

6/20/2005 12:45:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

The more left-wing the Westerner, the more tolerant he is of darn near EVERYTHING.
...Until his own Ox is Gored.
Unfortunately, just like Gore, they can't see beyond their own nose to see the historically near future for their own ox.

6/20/2005 12:50:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Since history ended, they don't have to pay attention to that one about:
"First they came for the Jews..."

6/20/2005 12:51:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

. A Collection of Thoughts .
Nice website, Jennifer!
. I LOVE GITMO

6/20/2005 12:58:00 PM  
Blogger Peter UK said...

Lawyer, Susan Tipograph, a member of the May 19 Communist Order, an offshoot of the old Weather Underground, (Tipograph also represented another CCR favorite, Lynne Stewart, the "blind sheikh" Omar Abdel Rahman's lead defense lawyer,

They were students once!

6/20/2005 01:01:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

The Homefront:
. Atzlan

6/20/2005 01:10:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Peter,
I think I read somewhere that Ramsey Clark had to persuade Lynne Stewart into one of her patriotic pursuits.

6/20/2005 01:12:00 PM  
Blogger Jambodia said...

Nick Rowe spent his five years as a PoW, and then came home to lead a productive life. He was asked by President Reagan to return to active duty to establish the Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape (SERE) course for Special operators. He had alresdy done more than his share, but established the school in order to share his experiences with others.

His last official act in the US was to award SF Tabs to my graduating class at the Special Forces school. I remember him telling us that his wife was at home packing for their move to Manila. He didn't have to attend our graduation, but believed and showed that it was important to be with and inspire soldiers.

He is a legend, and is missed. I was glad to see that someone is keeping track of this, since we won't forget.

6/20/2005 02:12:00 PM  
Blogger RWE said...

jp, you are right. But I fear that it is the natural tendancy of the diplmatic corps to promote stability. I can well understand that they would find it embarassing to say to the host country "We are here to overthrow you." - they would rather just get along.

6/20/2005 04:48:00 PM  
Blogger Tony said...

It was Pogo:

What did the hippies say? "We have met the enemy and he is us?" Irony.

Comparison of hippies to Nazis ... you're driving your critics to distraction on purpose, aren't you?

6/20/2005 05:40:00 PM  
Blogger wretchard said...

Tony,

Comparison of hippies to Nazis ... you're driving your critics to distraction on purpose, aren't you?

Not entirely. It's easy to miss evil in oneself and hard to remember, after all those movies, that most Nazis were young and idealistic in their own way. We know how twisted it was now, but even people like Charles Lindbergh and Leni Reifenstahl saw them as the wave of the future. One of the persistent images of 1940s wartime literature was the how young and virile the Nazis were compared to the old and decadent countries of Europe. Evil is not so very easy to recognize among friends.

Even on this thread the whiff of evil can be fleetingly discerned. A lot of people justifiably want to revenge themselves on this Continente character. Yet he is at best small fry and, in my own view at least, not worth the candle. The man who orders these political liquidations is probably Jose Maria Sison, head of the Communist Party of the Philippines, and currently guest of the Euroleft. If we want justice it's important to find some way to extradite and try this man.

6/20/2005 06:30:00 PM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

How did that Israeli Nazi-hunter used to extract them from South America? Simon Weisenthal?

Didn't he just sneak up behind them, bop them over the head to knock them out, and then hie to the nearest border where a team was waiting for them?

If the borders around the world are so porous that terrorists can slither ina and out, shouldn't semi-good guys wanting to extradite some of these semi-bad guys also be able to sneak in and out?

Of course, then there'd be the question of what to do with them, since I can't see an American court taking on the issue ... they're too busy haggling about what rights the proven terrorists at Guantanamo Bay have. And I'm damned if I'd want ot hand them over to the UN's International Court, nor to the Hague.

Maybe we could do a new TV reality show, and have a trial a week. Viewers could then phone in their votes at the end of the show: thumbs up or thumbs down. Be a jury of a whole bunch of peers, and what could be fairer than that? (Is that another whiff of evil making your tender nostrils twitch, Wretchard?)

6/20/2005 06:55:00 PM  
Blogger wretchard said...

Nahncee,

I always ask myself 'would you do this personally?' It's an imperfect guide but the only one I've got.

6/20/2005 07:05:00 PM  
Blogger ledger said...

There are a lot of good posts and links on this thread. I am just sifting through them. They look very promising. Keep posting guys & gals.

6/20/2005 07:16:00 PM  
Blogger Peter UK said...

This site is more explicit as to the inner threatfrom the leftovers from the sixties

6/20/2005 08:08:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

6/20/2005 08:20:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"...shouldn't semi-good guys wanting to extradite some of these semi-bad guys also be able to sneak in and out?"
---
Another Nahncee classic.
(still trying to picture it on the movie marquee, though.)
And for the kiddies,
Instead of the Chocolate Factory, we could have the
Semi-sweet Confections from Brazil.

6/20/2005 08:22:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

I will get to your site, Peter.
First my personal observations:

The dumbed down, inch deep rhetoric of the 60's has so infiltrated our society that affairs like the Durbin incident can now occur a short 3 years after 911.

The Supreme Court regularly pumps out decisions that would be music to the ears of Communists in the 50's and "New Leftists" in the 70's.

Self hatred and hatred of America is encountered daily in political discourse.

Many children are given entirely bogus "educations."
(a direct descendant of the "revolution" of the 60's)

Victimology and Perp rights first are common.

Complete ignorance/lack of context evidenced by Durbin are the norm for many.

6/20/2005 08:33:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

The Courts:
"... they're too busy haggling about what rights the proven terrorists at Guantanamo Bay have."
---
A threat to the country's survival until changed.
...and change won't happen until something worse than 911 happens.

Then look how brilliant the Durbins and all the Justices, save Thomas, will reveal themselves to have been.

6/20/2005 08:40:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

2 of the Semi Evils:
"It is almost beyond belief that members of the '70s Weather Underground are training our nation's future teachers. But if one reads B.K. Eakman's exhaustively detailed book,
'Cloning of the American Mind: Eradicating Morality Through Education,'
the results of Ayres-style 'indoctrination' of our nation's future teachers is understandable.

Ayres, who in 1970 was said to have summed up the Weatherman philosophy as: "Kill all the rich people. Break up their cars and apartments. Bring the revolution home, Kill your parents, that's where it's really at." His wife, Ms. Dohrn, had a law degree from the University of Chicago and was a magnetic speaker who often wore thigh-high boots and miniskirts. "In 1969, after the Manson family murders in Beverly Hills, Ms. Dohrn told a Students for Democratic Society (S.D.S.) audience: "Dig it! Manson killed those pigs, then they ate dinner in the same room with them, then they shoved a fork into a victim's stomach."
"

6/20/2005 08:47:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Trish,
If you could, I have a question for you back at your most interesting discussion HERE. .
Thanks,
Doug

6/20/2005 09:43:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

ENEMY OF THE STATE .
The state of Illinois has inflicted us with Richard Durbin.
When last we viewed this otherwise insignificant man, he was one of three Democratic senators who were the subject of a CIA request to the Justice Department for a criminal investigation into their intentional leaking some of our nation's most closely kept secrets.
---
Durbin and his buddies revealed a Black Stealth Satellite Program.
No harm, no foul, right?
---
Because of people such as Dick Durbin, America lost its will to fight, and lost the Vietnam War. That loss didn't deprive Americans of life and liberty. If we lose this war, we lose America.
---
If the laws that require our secrets be kept secret aren't taken seriously by those who hold the public's trust -- such as Shelby and the "Misty Three" -- and if serious violations of these laws are also taken lightly as Sen. Frist seems to be doing now --our system of government will not be able to function as the Constitution says it must. If Congress cannot be trusted with secrets such as these, it cannot provide the essential checks and balances on the Executive we rely on it to perform in order to protect us from a runaway president.
Right now, we apparently have a runaway Senate.

6/20/2005 10:04:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Frist,
Good Republican that he is, has done NOTHING.
---
Durbin humor.
(Honest: Said in public)
"Abe Lincoln must have been a Jew."
...shot in the temple.

Ipset rei locquitorum.

6/20/2005 10:07:00 PM  
Blogger Tony said...

"So look up ahead at times to come, despair is not for us. We have a world and more to see, while this remains behind." Col. James N. Rowe

6/21/2005 06:57:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

At his parents' home, the young officer dashed from the car to the front porch, where his father, Lee Rowe, opened the door. ''Dad, dad,
RR Humor:
I'm sorry I didn't get home sooner; they just wouldn't let me go.'' He hugged his mother, Florence.
James Rowe recalled: ''The three of us stood for a long moment, touching, communicating without speaking. My world was complete; I had reached out and touched the light.''
---
Rowe's second wife, Mary, and their two sons, Stephen and Brian, live in Manila. Two daughters by a previous marriage, Deborah and Christina, live in Middleburg, Virginia.
...wonder if there're any scholarship funds set up?

6/21/2005 07:22:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

It was evident from the beginning that Versace, who spoke
fluent French and Vietnamese, was going to be a problem for the Viet Cong.
Although Versace was known to love the Vietnamese people, he could not accept the Viet Cong philosophy of revolution, and spent long hours assailing their viewpoints. His captors eventually isolated him to attempt to break him.

Rowe and Pitzer saw Rocky at interludes during their first months of captivity, and saw that he had not broken. Indeed, although he became very thin, he still attempted to escape. By January 1965, Versace's steel-grey hair had turned completely white. He was an inspiration to them both. Rowe wrote:

..The Alien force, applied with hate,
could not break him, failed to bend him;
Though solitary imprisonment gave him no friends,
he drew upon his inner self to create a force so strong
that those who sought to destroy his will, met an army his to command..
.

On Sunday, September 26, 1965, "Liberation Radio" announced the execution of Rocky Versace and Kenneth Roraback in retaliation for the deaths of 3 terrorists in Da Nang.
A later news article stated that the executions were faked, but the Army did not reopen an investigaton.
In the late 1970's information regarding this "execution" became classified, and is no longer part of public record.

6/21/2005 07:44:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

The State Department ignored Rowe's letter and apparently never warned him about the seriousness of the threat. Intelligence sources say Rowe was a "classic expendable;" that he was not warned because he likely would have tried to safely get out any agents he personally knew of inside the NPA or communist party.

"Undoubtedly there were some who didn't want to loose those assets," an intelligence source said.

One reason such assets may have been deemed important enough not to alert Rowe to the threat was that the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) was receiving
information on possible growing Cuban involvement with the NPA.

Evidence suggests that Rowe's Vietnam experience was not coincidental to his
selection as a target. In June of 1989, from an NPA stronghold in the hills of
Sorsogon, a province in Southern Luzon's Bicol region, senior cadre Celso
Minguez told the Far Eastern Economic Review magazine that the communist
underground wished to send "a message to the American people" by killing a
Vietnam veteran.

"We want to let them know that their government is making the Philippines
another Vietnam," Minguez, a founder of the communist insurgency in Bicol and
participant in the abortive 1986 peace talks with President Corazon Aquino's
government told the REVIEW.

In May 1989, U.S. Veteran News and Report reported that according to a source
who had served under Rowe, the Vietnamese communist also wanted Rowe dead and very likely collaborated with the Philippine insurgents to achieve that goal.

1000 POINTS OF DEATH
Despite the clear danger especially posed to Rowe and other intelligence
operatives, Rowe was not given a heavily armored car to travel in. One reason for this, U.S. Veteran News and Report has learned, is that budget cuts for the Defense Attache System (DAS) for 1989 had resulted in a 72 percent cut in the DAS's vehicle armoring program, causing the program to be canceled entirely last year (except for a skeleton infrastructure maintained to handle basic functions). This had a direct impact on the DAS's ability to provide adequate security to U.S. personnel abroad, according to a well-placed intelligence source.

6/21/2005 08:07:00 AM  
Blogger eLarson said...

What does "NPA" specifically stand for? Maybe I can help dig...

6/21/2005 08:13:00 AM  
Blogger eLarson said...

Scratch that... Google is my friend. New People's Army

Discover the Network doesn't have anything on that organization specifically. Are there any 1st order connections to that group?

6/21/2005 08:16:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Democrat talking point alert #69:

"We want to let them know that their government is making the Philippines another Vietnam,"
Minguez, a founder of the communist insurgency in Bicol, said.

6/21/2005 08:17:00 AM  
Blogger RWE said...

I see where President Bush met with the Prime Minister of Vietnam. Also, I bought a Canon Printer and was surprised to find that it was made in Vietnam.
We should refuse to buy products made in Vietnam and refuse to allow Vietnam into the world economic market until they agree to provide the names and details of the American collaborators and their treasonous actions. The government of Vietnam has argued that the U.S. should not "punish Vietnam for having won the war." But the truth is WE WON THE LARGER WAR. And now they have to play by OUR rules: Give us the names; we have some housecleaning to do.

6/21/2005 08:50:00 AM  
Blogger Nathan said...

The government of Vietnam has argued that the U.S. should not "punish Vietnam for having won the war." But the truth is WE WON THE LARGER WAR.

Really, I don't think either is true. Instead, I think both parties lost, and at tremendous cost. The effects of American cowardice in that crucial moment following Tet continue to be felt; Vietnam is an ongoing propaganda victory for everything and everybody who is anti-American regardless of the military merit earned before the abandonment and betrayal of the South Vietnamese to their fate. Although we may say now that the facade of benevolent and successful Communism has largely fallen, so that the argument of the greater American "victory" can be made, it remains that Vietnam suffered under Marxist economic planning until it was abandoned in 1986. Although growth occurred through the 1990s following economic reform, the country continues to be plagued by unemployment, poor production, inflation, and corruption. Genuine victory for the Vietnamese would have entailed an achievement of prosperity on par with South Korea, without the hand of the United States to guide the way. But that did not occur, for obvious reasons.

6/21/2005 09:12:00 AM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

I can only seriously boycott one country at a time. And right now I'm still furious with the French.

6/21/2005 09:41:00 AM  
Blogger Nathan said...

Funny, nahncee, but also an unfortunately accurate indication of how seriously such suggestions can be taken. Globalism and economic interdependence seem to preclude unilateralist economic, as opposed to military action, from having much effect. Don't want to trade with us? Fine, we'll trade with someone else. Curiously, in Vietnam's case, that "someone else" would probably include China... and France. And other Eurasian countries. Economic sanctions now have the power to drive countries away from future cooperative relationships with the United States, now that nascently independent power blocs are being formed.

6/21/2005 09:57:00 AM  
Blogger RWE said...

nathan: I don;t mean that we won a military victory in Vietnam but lost the political war. We won the COLD WAR. Hands down. Wasn't even close. Vietnam was one battle, and a pyrric victory at best for the Communists. Actually, some well regarded Asian historians today say that the Vietnam War exhausted the communists so much that Thailand, Malaysia, etc. were able to develop on their own.
nahncee: Hey! Broaden your horizons! Take a larger view! Vietnam was a FRENCH colony and they screwed it up, as Wretchard so eloquently described in the Dien Bein Phu post. Your heart is surely big enough to hate both the current day French, their idiot bumbling ancestors, and the totalitarian nations derived from their actions.
I understand that the standard saying in Vietnam now is: "Our past was French, our present is Soviet and our future is American." Okay, so put up or shut up, guys. Rat on our traitors if you want in the club.

6/21/2005 10:03:00 AM  
Blogger Nathan said...

We won the COLD WAR. Hands down. Wasn't even close.

Absolutely, I don't disagree. However the fact remains that the legacy of Vietnam continues to be used against us today unlike, say, Bataan. Nobody questioned then or now whether the death march was worth the eventual liberation of the Philippines from imperial Japan. Vietnam, I think, is unique in that it has been manufactured into a chronic stain on the American conscience, and for all the wrong reasons; unlike MacArthur, we did not return. I do not believe that stain can be erased until we do return to Vietnam; perhaps not by force of arms, but rather by the allure of the dollar.

Unfortunately, I believe that matters of historical pride will have to wait. We will win a different way.

6/21/2005 10:41:00 AM  
Blogger iotm said...

I'm all for locking up terrorists, but let's have some consistency. Guantanamo Bay isn't for terrorists, it's for people Afghan warlords didn't like, and thus sold to the US military.

Luis Posada Carrilles and Orlando Bosch are running free in Miami with CIA pensions and US government meddling preventing them from facing trial for their terrorist attack on an airplane which killed 72 people.

Emmanual Constant lives in NYC with a CIA pension, he's been convicted of crimes against humanity for his role as a death squad leader in Haiti, but the US refuses to return him to face prison.

Kissinger is wanted in god knows how many countries, but the US won't hand him over.

Don't feign righteous indignation over "their" terrorists while fully supporting "our" terrorists. Makes you look like a gigantic hypocrit.

6/21/2005 10:59:00 AM  
Blogger Nathan said...

Don't feign righteous indignation over "their" terrorists while fully supporting "our" terrorists.

Hello, strawman.

6/21/2005 11:51:00 AM  
Blogger iotm said...

That's obviously not a strawman argument.

6/21/2005 12:07:00 PM  
Blogger Mark in Texas said...

The government of Vietnam has argued that the U.S. should not "punish Vietnam for having won the war."

That is precicely why we should punish them with an economic embargo.

Let people around the world learn that the cost of winning a war against the United States is 100 years of exclusion from the global economy. Contrast the per capita income of winners in Vietnam with the lifestyle of losers in Germany or Japan. Let Vietnam into the WTO in 2075.

6/21/2005 12:20:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

nathan said,
"unlike, say, Bataan. Nobody questioned then or now whether the death march was worth the eventual liberation of the Philippines from imperial Japan."
---
You're right, almost nobody did.
But in light of Wretch's recent posts,
...now that you bring it up...!
But maybe there would only be Japanese to enjoy it?

6/21/2005 12:25:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

OT (mostly)

OT,
Cool Dude of the Year.
. Terry and... .
Would you buy a car...

. I Kept My Promise.
...Departed this Earth in 1990.
...at Peace, 2005!
.

. Brian Schiavo said the Schindlers "shouldn't consider themselves that important." .

TAMPA, Fla. -- The inscription on the grave marker belonging to Terri Schiavo that reads "I kept my promise" is simply a message from her husband to his dead wife and is not meant to anger her family, the woman's brother-in-law said Tuesday.

Michael Schiavo, who received possession of his wife's remains after her death March 31, had said her ashes would be buried at a family plot in Pennsylvania. But she was instead buried at Sylvan Abbey Memorial Park in Clearwater, near Michael Schiavo's home.
"I guess maybe he wanted to be closer to her," Brian Schiavo said. "It's just his decision to do so."

David Gibbs, the Schindlers' attorney, said the family was notified by fax only after Monday's service, when the family had already started getting calls from reporters.
Gibbs on Monday decried the inscriptions on the marker. "Obviously, that's a real shot and another unkind act toward a grieving mom and dad," he said.

6/21/2005 12:58:00 PM  
Blogger Nathan said...

That's obviously not a strawman argument.

Sure it is. I don't see anybody here defending Carriles, Bosch or Constant. As for Kissinger, that some countries do not enjoy his company does not ipso facto a war criminal make. His controversy is well covered elsewhere.

Res ipsa loquitur.

6/21/2005 01:06:00 PM  
Blogger Nathan said...

Doug,

I agree. We've come full circle. While Vietnam is realizing the benefits of American relations, the Philippines takes them for granted. The American sacrifices that were made for each are being irresponsibly remembered by different parties, if they are remembered at all.

6/21/2005 01:11:00 PM  
Blogger Big D said...

I just found your site surfing thru the next blog button and it is an amazing blog. I sent in a donation, but I wanted to tell you how impressed I was. I have a feeling I'm goning to learn alot!

6/21/2005 02:06:00 PM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

iotm: "consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds" ... and they don't get a whole lot smaller than yours.

6/21/2005 03:13:00 PM  
Blogger truepeers said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

6/21/2005 04:41:00 PM  
Blogger truepeers said...

Interesting to find Wretchard echoing, on the question of evil, the latest statement from the Archbishop of Canterbury, which I'll quote if anyone wants to take this memory and revenge thing into an ethical debate:

"There is one deeply uncomfortable lesson to ponder, which is best expressed in shorthand by saying that we are in danger of falling into exactly the trap that St Paul lays for his readers in the beginning of his letter to the Romans. He has begun by defining 'God's way of righting wrong' (1.17), which is by faith; and he then gives a vivid account of the wrong that needs to be righted. Human beings are in revolt against the creator, exchanging (he repeats the word) what is natural for what is unnatural. He lists those things which for Jewish readers and sympathetic Gentiles would most obviously suggest revolt against God's will. People know what is natural yet invent alternatives - whether it is intercourse with the same sex, worship of material things, breaking promises or using their God-given skills of speech to spread evil reports. But, says Paul as he begins chapter 2, this is not about some distant 'they'; it is about 'you', his readers, then and now. You know what is natural but do not do it, and you pass judgment on others, so condemning yourself. Paul does not say that the sins he has listed in ch.1 are not sins at all; he simply points out that he has been egging us on in recognising the sins of others so as to expose our own deadly lack of self-knowledge. This is terrible, he says, isn't it? And this and this? And we eagerly say yes; so that he can turn on us and say, 'So now you know how terrible is the lack in your own heart of the recognition of your rebellion, whatever it is.'

"'Whenever you erect yourself upon a pedestal, you do wrong; whenever you say 'I' or 'we' or 'it is so', you exchange the glory of the incorruptible for the image of the corruptible ... By striding ahead of others, even though it be for their assistance, as though the secret of God were known to you, you manifest yourself ignorant of His secret ... Even 'brokenness'; even the behaviour of the 'Biblical Man' - if these proceed from the adoption of a point of view, of a method, of a system, or of a particular kind of behaviour, by which men distinguish themselves from other men - are no more than the righteousness of men'. These are words from the greatest commentary on Romans in the modern era, Karl Barth's masterpiece (pp.56-7); and they should drive us to some very hard questions. When we call on others to repent, can we hear God calling us to recognise our own rebellion, whatever it is? If not, have we understood faith? We are always in danger of the easiest religious technique of all, the search for the scapegoat; Paul insists without any shadow of compromise upon our solidarity in rebellion against God, and so tells us that we shall not achieve peace and virtue by creating a community we believe to be pure. And these words are spoken both to the Jew and the Gentile, both to the prophetic radical and the loyal traditionalist. The prophet, says Barth later in his commentary, 'knows the catastrophe of the Church to be inevitable' (cheering words!) and he knows also that there is no friendly lifeboat into which he can clamber and row clear of the imminent disaster' (336).

"...If we have understood what Paul says about faith we shall understand that we all stand together in sin and need. When we acknowledge our sin and our need of God's grace, we also begin to see our need of each other in the Body of Christ. What we have to do is to work hard to see that - whatever else happens to us as a Communion - we don't lose the sense of our dependence upon grace, not on success or human virtue."

Archbishop of C.

6/21/2005 05:00:00 PM  
Blogger Peter UK said...

Truepeers,
We are dealing with atheist commuinists and Islamofascists who are sadly not going to play by the same rules.
I do not know how we can have any kind of dialogue with those who wish us gone from the face of the earth.
How this can ever be resolved i do not know.

6/21/2005 06:27:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Truepeers,
You are better educated, and probably smarter than I am, so I may well be missing the obvious, therefore I will not rebut anything in this post.
I simply assert that this imperfect country is damn well worth defending against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

6/21/2005 07:04:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

I don't use emoticons much.
Too make sure I am not misunderstood in the silly post above, I will here:
---
nathan said,
"unlike, say, Bataan. Nobody questioned then or now whether the death march was worth the eventual liberation of the Philippines from imperial Japan."
---
You're right, almost nobody did.
But in light of Wretch's recent posts,
...now that you bring it up...! :-)

But maybe there would only be Japanese to enjoy it? :-(

6/21/2005 07:18:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

6/21/2005 08:19:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Another thing,
Dave Horowitz has come clean long ago and took responsibility for *his traitorous acts*.

Haven't heard too many on the looney right calling for his head.

But I also have NO DOUBT Scheer et al on the Dishonest Evil Left would remove it in a heartbeat if it could be accomplished with them safely removed from the act and unaccountable.

Point is:
What in the world could be wrong w/trying to hold people accountable?

esp those who are currently well rewarded and STILL INFLUENTIAL in current events.
...that's why so much is going badly.

6/21/2005 08:20:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"came clean long ago"

6/21/2005 08:22:00 PM  
Blogger truepeers said...

Peter & Doug, well sometimes education can be a dangerous thing. Anyway, those weren't my words, though I found them thought-provoking. In any case, I don't see anything in them that speaks against the duty of self-defense. Especially when one is responsible for other people. It is one thing to turn the other cheek when it is just a matter of concern to you. It is quite another when, say, a defenseless child is being attacked. If you turn away then, you are implicated in the kind of evil I think was being discussed in the quote from Canterbury.

Anyway, I realize now, that maybe the Archbishop has spoken out against the war in a way I wouldn't approve. Didn't think of that when I posted; in any case, on the general point, I don't think he has turned against any kind of belief in just wars. That would be a big mistake if he had.

It was the point about evil and the ways we are all implicated in it that I wanted to address. Tough nut I know. But I find the position of Christianity in this regard to be essentially true; however the problem of how to live this truth is huge and can never be fully solved; the demands of the Christian revelation re human sinfulness can overwhelm. But it is essential to discuss precisely because it is the moral level that is ultimately paramount in war and all human struggles. We are a secular people because we come out of a Christian history - no other faith has had the secularizing force of Christianity because Judeo-Christianity is particularly anti-sacrificial, and hence in one important sense anti-religious, in the way Williams is discussing. Our secular culture is as much the product of Christianity as is our religious culture. To understand our secular mission in the present world, we have to come to terms with the fundamental anthropology underlying Christian belief. That's what Williams is trying to do in that passage taken from an address that is still largely caught up in the "gay marriage" debate.

6/21/2005 09:00:00 PM  
Blogger trish said...

Doug, I answered your question. Would've done so earlier, but it was high school graduation day for my daughter.

And Doug...They posted the colors, had the Pledge of Allegiance, and the orchestra did a fine anthem - which the audience spontaneously sang.

All this in just about the most multiculti school you can imagine.

All it needed was Bill Murray giving the "Stripes" speech, or John Belushi reminding the audience that we didn't give up when "the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor."

Or maybe that's just what I needed.

But the Pledge...It's been years. And it was an unexpected thrill to recite it again after so long.

6/21/2005 09:01:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Trish,
Saw your answer, and unfortunately now *I* have to go, so will just say thanks.
...and hope you left out the "G" word, since I would not want to offend the tender sensibilities of the ACLU, and etc.

6/21/2005 09:20:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

For all concerned that have made it to the 133rd post on this great Blog.

The American Enterprise Online has an interesting Opinion piece by Karl Zinsmeister, the Editor-in-Chief.

"The War is Over, and We Won"

http://www.taemag.com/issues/articleID.18615/article_detail.asp

"... Today, the primary work of our soldiers in each area is rebuilding sewers, paving roads, getting buildings repaired and secured, supplying schools and hospitals, getting trash picked up, managing traffic, and encouraging honest local governance. ..."

The War on the Iraqi Front is all but over.
What comes next?

6/22/2005 06:36:00 AM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

Condi lecturing the Saudi's about democracy. (following from today's Wall Street Journal).

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice traveled to Cairo and then Riyadh and, in soft tones, delivered a stark message: America would no longer pursue "stability at the expense of democracy." ...Nor do we see the relatively indulgent line pursued by the Administration so far toward the House of Saud carrying on forever. With her speech, Secretary Rice has laid down markers to which the administration is bound to hold itself as well as the Saudis, since its critics will certainly hold her and Mr. Bush to it.

I would call this a pretty public warning shot across the bow.

6/22/2005 07:00:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Yeah but look at their reported response

"...Egyptian Foreign Minister Ahmed Aboul Gheit, who shared the stage with her, dismissed her call for free and transparent elections as if it were a non-issue, as did Saudi Foreign Minister Saud al-Faisal at a press conference in Riyadh later that day. "The row [over political reform] is really meaningless," he said. ..."

6/22/2005 07:16:00 AM  
Blogger Nathan said...

I think I gotcha, Doug :)

6/22/2005 08:14:00 AM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

ArabNews had a pretty detailed report of a Condi Q&A session in yesterday's on-line edition. I'm thinking the Saudi public/media are listening even if the Minister Al-WhoseyWhatsit is saying for public consumption, "ho-hum, baseless, misunderstood, meaningless yadda yadda."

You notice she included Egypt, too, just so the Saud's wouldn't feel picked on and humiliated.

6/22/2005 09:25:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

6/22/2005 10:02:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

What about the standard line that if they held a Saudi Election today, we would be greeted with a virulently anti US Wahabist Govt tomorrow?

6/22/2005 10:04:00 AM  
Blogger Nathan said...

I'm not sure we have good metrics on Saudi public opinion.

6/22/2005 10:21:00 AM  
Blogger trish said...

"The War on the Iraqi Front is all but over.
What comes next?"

A nice long nap?

"What about the standard line that if they held a Saudi Election today, we would be greeted with a virulently anti US Wahabist Govt tomorrow?"

Tis sometimes the case that the rulers of Arab states are LESS hostile to the West (or to the US in particular), LESS illiberal, than the general population that they rule.

6/22/2005 11:44:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Yeah,
BUT that doesn't have that pure, idealistic, black and white ring to it.
...more like we weren't always wrong in the old days and always right now.
(but we sure sound a lot nicer now than we did then)

6/22/2005 11:54:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

...like when we look into pootie poot's eyes and see his soul.

6/22/2005 11:55:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Nathan said,
"...regardless of the military merit earned before the abandonment and betrayal of the South Vietnamese to their fate."
---
...regardless of the military merit earned before the DEMOCRATabandonment and betrayal of the South Vietnamese to their fate.
---
And we STILL have a GD Anti American Dodd in the Senate now holding up Bolton!

6/22/2005 12:20:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

No doug, I have to disagree.
All of America abandoned the Sout Viets, not just the Dems.
No revisionism here, amigo.
It was not worth the price to save a few million Indochinese.
Ah well...
Now we are on to abandoning the people of Darfur in the Sudan and the starving blacks of Zimbabwe, all because of that big drain on our ability to do anything else, Iraqi Insurgents.

6/22/2005 01:46:00 PM  
Blogger exhelodrvr said...

Trish,
Congrats to you and your daughter. My son just graduated HS two weeks ago.

6/22/2005 02:24:00 PM  
Blogger Nathan said...

Doug, Desert Rat,

The solution to all of our problems in this regard is, of course, warfighting robots.

/only half kidding.

6/22/2005 02:55:00 PM  
Blogger trish said...

Thanks, exhelo. And congratulations to you and your son.

We're one down and one to go. So to speak.

(Will donate plasma and move into a double-wide for multiple inflated college costs. "Full meal plan? Hon, you don't really need to eat more than once a day. Right?")

6/22/2005 03:09:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

nathan
after three Terminator movies haven't we learned anything about 'smart machines'
At the "forty years ago today..." thread they are disussing this very subject.
Foreseeing the future, 40 years out. Good luck.

6/22/2005 04:31:00 PM  
Blogger Nathan said...

1. Hollywood is silly.
2. I was thinking more along the lines of the next ten years, but whatever.
3. I'll move my relevant thoughts over there :)

6/22/2005 04:59:00 PM  
Blogger Mətušélaḥ said...

desert rat said... Now we are on to abandoning the people of Darfur in the Sudan and the starving blacks of Zimbabwe, all because of that big drain on our ability to do anything else, Iraqi Insurgents.


Huh? You're being sarcastic, right?

6/22/2005 10:02:00 PM  
Blogger trish said...

"Now we are on to abandoning the people of Darfur in the Sudan and the starving blacks of Zimbabwe"

This reminds me, desert rat, of your hearty approval of M. Albright's famous remark: What good is this wonderful military you're always talking about if you can't use it?

No other words spoken by Madame Secretary during her tenure inspired more contempt, derision and anger within the military. It so perfectly expressed that administration's cavalier attitude toward the institution itself and neatly voiced that administration's near-total comfort with the promiscuous, ill-considered use of the armed forces. That administration was generally reviled by the military not only because of its penchant for funny-if-it-weren't-true Pentagon programs such as COO (Consideration of Others) and other PC jackassery, but also for its love affair with the endless, non-defense-related humanitarian mission.

GWB wisely rejected this in his campaign for president - and in so doing won the support of soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines desperate by that time to see an end to the profitless, "do-goo" crisis projects of ambitious White House Liberals. If the Clinton administration had an almost pathological aversion to necessary distinctions between friend and foe, between good and bad, so too did it pretty thoroughly and insensibly avoid the difference between defense necessity and plain old what-the-hell save-the-world social welfare adventurism.

Goddammit, it's an army, not a global charity outfit with guns.

6/23/2005 01:32:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

"For example, contrary to the assertions of Cronkite and others in the mainstream press, the American military had nothing to do with the fall of Saigon, much less losing the war.
The last American combat unit left Vietnam in August 1972, nearly three years before the 1975 Communist invasion.
The U.S. military remained undefeated in battle throughout the Vietnam War.

Instead, it was Congress or, more specifically, the nearly two to one Democrat majority in the Senate (61 to 37) and the House (291 to 144) in 1975 that voted to cut off all military funding to the Saigon government that was directly responsible for the defeat of South Vietnam. Congressional Democrats literally abandoned our South Vietnamese allies and it was they, not the U.S. military, who were responsible for the carnage that followed, the slaughter, imprisonment and forced "reeducation" of millions of innocent civilians throughout Southeast Asia by an avenging North Vietnamese Army."
. Winning America's "Lost" War .
. Vietnam Veterans Legacy Foundation

6/23/2005 03:43:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

I agree doug that the Congress failed the Viets. The majorities the enjoyed represented America at the time. They was US. Like it or not.

trish, the purpose of the Armed Forces is to be directed by the CiC.
"Theirs's is not to reason why, theirs is but to do or die"

If the President and the Comgress choose a course of Action the Generals disapprove of they can always Resign in Protest.
I do not recall many Political Resignations from the Military in the Clinton years.

6/23/2005 10:11:00 AM  
Blogger Nathan said...

I do not recall many Political Resignations from the Military in the Clinton years.

Much as we might have enjoyed the political efficacy of such actions, the message it would send to the world would be one of weakness rather than strength. To some extent, it is better that the military remain loyal to the representative government rather than to ideology. This confers legitimacy not so much to the individuals in that government, but more so to the system that elected them. Some of the greatest American generals did not yield, however, to the politics of the day. Notable examples include Patton and, particularly, MacArthur. These men could not so yield and paid for it with their careers. Politics carried on without them, although, it can be argued, the United States is that much weaker for it.

6/23/2005 10:25:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

DOUGlas MacArthur.

6/23/2005 10:44:00 AM  
Blogger Nathan said...

Heh :)

6/23/2005 12:00:00 PM  

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