Thursday, May 22, 2008

For the honor of the regimented

Barbara Hans of Der Spiegel describe the national debate in Germany over the "honor killing" of an Afghan immigrant teenager who was stabbled 20 times by her brother for going out on a date.

Who in general, is one's brother? And why is Germany engaged in a "national debate"? The girl's relatives were interviewed after she was killed.

"Maybe he did it out of love," Moral's cousin Mujda said, when asked why Ahmad stabbed his sister that night. Mudja O. gave an extensive interview to SPIEGEL TV following the crime, discussing the stabbing and her cousin's possible motives for the killing. "We spoke to him and he told us, 'My sisters are my life. She should be put away before anything happens to her. The last sentence that we heard from him was that he loved his sister."

Mujda's comments are enough to wring blood from a stone and the phrase "he did it out of love" will doubtless figure prominently in the brother's trial, where he will be accused of the crime of simply being a Muslim. After all, rivers belong where they can ramble. Eagles belong where they can fly. Some have got to be where the stabbing is for free. Gotta have my corner of the sky. But before we give the brother a pass, Der Spiegel informs us that:

It was not the first time Ahmad, who worked in an auto parts store, had come to the attention of the police for violent acts, either. In police circles, he was known as a serial offender, constantly in trouble for beatings and even stabbings. Morsal had even tried to get charges pressed against her brother with the police after he repeatedly attacked her, but she later withdrew them.

Who then, was Morsal's brother, apart from Ahmad? The hoary old story of the Good Samaritan implies that there was no one who fit the bill.

On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?" He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live." But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"

In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn in Jericho and took care of him. The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.'

"Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?"

The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him."

"The one who had mercy on him." What justice is there in a world, Dostoevsky asked, when a child can be left in a freezing outhouse by a cruel, sadistic father while the child beats his little fists against the icy, stinking door, crying "Jesus! Jesus"? Or where a donkey can be flogged by a drover until he staggers sideways to his death?

In all of Germany who was listening to that teenage girl's cries? There was 'honor' in the house that night. And not a bit of love, whatever Ahmad says.

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Blogger Pax Federatica said...

"Maybe he did it out of love [...] We spoke to him and he told us, 'My sisters are my life. She should be put away before anything happens to her. The last sentence that we heard from him was that he loved his sister."

As shocking as the above quote may seem to us, it speaks to the sort of mindset that can only come from a religion that puts next to zero value on this life vis-a-vis the afterlife. "I love my sister; therefore I will do what I must to keep her from getting herself condemned to Hell by Allah."

5/22/2008 05:04:00 PM  
Blogger 3Case said...

Is this not a variant of the Kitty Genovese, except that the bystander is the German and /or Euro government(s)?

5/22/2008 06:16:00 PM  
Blogger watimebeing said...

Depending on how the statement is read, "She should be put away before something happens to her", becomes a plea by the aggressor to protect the victim, before the illness takes hold again. Pedophiles whose aggressions grow steadily morbid are shown to have such moments of lucid thought. But then the sickness takes over, pressing the pedophile on to ever more violent behaviors, compelling them and requiring the pedophile to act.

I suspect the same sickness takes over the really messed up AlQ member. It would not surprise me if most of the inmates at GITMO suffer from similar irresistible urges.

5/22/2008 06:55:00 PM  
Blogger Marcus Aurelius said...

In my previous comment on Half the Battle I was thinking of referring to the Good Samaritan as well. The Good Samaritan could have very well fell to the very same thugs that victimized the hurt man OR the man could have been bait. However, he took pity and stopped to help.

As I note in the comment I refer to above, doing right is not easy nor without cost, that is why society builds in many guides/channels to try to force us to do right. Society can never build enough such external bulwarks.

What would have been the cost of interfering here? Riots? A knife in the belly, heart, or a nice new scarlet "necktie"?

My father & I were going "Up North" one Friday and a young woman leaped out of from the pickup truck in front of us (it was taking a right and while not going real fast it was going fast enough) my father ordered us to stop to assist. The woman yelled at us to keep the guy in the pickup away from her. My father went to hold off the guy who was getting out of his truck and I escorted the woman to a nearby tavern.

She reached her haven and my father and I got into our pickup and beat it on down the road. Shortly after I was thinking dude could have had some sort of weapon on him and used it on us, fortunately he didn't.

I hope the Germans are debating what they could have done to prevent the murder rather than if they should allow worms to tunnel through....

I have not read anger here like that since the Tom Fox blog.

5/22/2008 06:57:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Joshua: As shocking as the above quote may seem to us, it speaks to the sort of mindset that can only come from a religion that puts next to zero value on this life vis-a-vis the afterlife

Pastor John Hagee, who has endorsed McCain, believes that God does honor killings too, but on a much larger scale:

HAGEE: In the case of New Orleans, their plan to have that homosexual rally was sin. But it never happened. The rally never happened.

PRAGER: No, I understand.

HAGEE: It was scheduled that Monday.

PRAGER: No, I’m only trying to understand that in the case of New Orleans, you do feel that God’s hand was in it because of a sinful city?

HAGEE: That it was a city that was planning a sinful conduct, yes.

5/22/2008 08:18:00 PM  
Blogger Marcus Aurelius said...


What is your point?

Al Gore and his ilk think New Orleans got whomped on account of carbon emitting.

5/22/2008 08:26:00 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

Teresita, religious fanatics will always be among us, saying and believing outrageous things, claiming to know God and viewing world events through whatever lenses they wear.

But there's really no comparison between a belief that God punishes the wicked and the institutionalized insanity of honor killings. I don't think you appreciate the special breed of brainwashed crazy it takes for a brother to plunge a blade multiple times into his own sister and then speak with pride and satisfaction at the deed afterwords. This is, I'm sure you are aware, a common occurrence in Islamic societies, and it is just as common for the murderer to receive a light and sympathetic sentence. Please have some perspective and resist the need to find moral equivalence in everything.

5/22/2008 09:56:00 PM  
Blogger CorporateCog said...

The Germans and Europeans believe that they are superior precisely because they did nothing to the violent islamist.

The men have been feminized and pacified to such a degree that Zapatero has selected a pregnant woman to be his defense minister.

The irony is that the feminists have succeeded in removing the spine of the men that they need for protection.

5/22/2008 10:26:00 PM  
Blogger Mad Fiddler said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

5/22/2008 10:33:00 PM  
Blogger Mad Fiddler said...

Honor Killings

This list represents several decades' careful study of the options most frequently elected by Mohammedans for the purpose of ensuring the salvation of the immortal soul --- or sometimes just the family honor --- of a beloved person.

a) Flay the skin; save for later processing for the collagens, which may be sold to European cosmetics manufacturers.

b) Scourge the flesh with a barb-tipped multiple strand whip; avoid contact with bodily fluids. If you will be doing this frequently, you may want to have your physician administer standard anti-hepatitis B / C series of innoculations.

c) Throw acid on the face and eyes. Be sure to avoid splashing liquid on self unless you wear a protective apron and goggles.

d) Bury the precious beloved to the waist in a clearing, then smash the face, skull, shoulders, chest and arms with sharp stones. It is advised to wear lambskin gloves (check to ensure they are not PIG skin) to avoid abrasions or blisters to the hands.

e) Douse the person's clothing with petrol and set them aflame; turn frequently and baste

f) Saw at the neck until the head comes apart from the shoulders; sharpen the blade to avoid repetitive use injury to the wrist.

g) Send slugs hurtling from the barrel of a gun through the person's vitals; avoid breathing the smoke, as it will contain dust particles of lead and irritant residue from the propellant.

h) Tape a claymore mine to the chest of the person, making sure that it points inward, then standing back a safe distance, pull the lanyard.

i) Pack 3 kilos of C-4 and an equal amount of steel ball bearings into an uncomfortable nylon fabric vest with a cellphone detonator, place the vest on the beloved, send the beloved into a crowd of schoolchildren, initiate the detonator.

j) Anonymously place a large explosive device on a public conveyance, or beside the public ways, so as to shred large numbers of unsuspecting travelers; this reminds them of their need for humble obedience to Allah, and emphasize the qualities of Allah's Mercy and for survivors, witnesses and those who tidy up afterwards.

It is refreshing --- when you consider it --- that people will be so honest about what they are about. No beating around the bush there --- "Cross me, and I'll kill you."

Let's see... Muslim courts hang homosexuals and fornicators from industrial cranes in many Islamic countries. A number of Muslims who have immigrated to the West continue their customs and stab, shoot, stone, and mutilate their women to keep them in line. In their home countries, the newspapers don't have headlines like, "Oh, my GOD! the Fanatics have brutally murdered ANOTHER HUNDRED GAY MEN FOR BEING GAY!" No, the headlines are more like, "The Islamic Courts this week, in order to demonstrate the Glory of Allah the Merciful, have executed another hundred unclean men for depraved acts, and another hundred women for adultery and fornication. God is GREAT! In related developments elsewhere, three hundred hands were surgically removed from their owner's arms, as a remedy against further acts of thieving."

So I have to ask...

What sort of brain-eating worm is gnawing its way through the frontal lobes of the people who think Sharíah will be a wonderful system to replace the legal system in the West?

5/22/2008 10:47:00 PM  
Blogger Brian H said...

The psychotherapeutic delusions of the left: "It needs to be communicated to families that their daughter is not a whore if she goes out in the evening. "

Right. A good talking-to will delete millennia-loads of cultural values on which all self-respect rests.

The arrogance of the senator who said that if only HE could have talked to Hitler before he invaded Poland, all would have been well-- lives on. And on. And on.

5/22/2008 11:55:00 PM  
Blogger Whiskey said...

A few threads back Alexis and myself disagreed on the nature of women's reaction to Sharia and the threat of Sharia in the West.

I cite Teresita as Exhibit A as to why women, in general, makes excuses for Sharia violence, including in this instance, honor killings.

Teresita's views are by no means atypical, indeed I would cite them as representative of a broad spectrum of women in the West.

For Teresita to view the crime as horrific, and preventable, and one indicative of Muslim religion and custom (one and the same), she would then have to consider what it would take to prevent that crime or similar ones from occurring.

Men, policemen, arresting the man for threatening his sister, and throwing him in jail. The entire "male" power structure. You will not find many feminist professors of English enforcing the law, physically handcuffing or shooting if necessary violent men like Ahmad, nor community activists either. Nor will you find them among jailers, bailiffs, etc.

In order for the poor woman's life to be saved, men had to intervene to stop the stabbing before it started.

Teresita would rather change the subject to: Christian Preachers say bad things, therefore no one is perfect, therefore all are equal.

That's the logic of petulant child, and she knows it. But like the vast majority of women she'll cling to the fantasy of denial. Denial that the death of a Muslim teenage girl will presage the limits of her own freedom. Denial that failure to protect the helpless will only encourage further predation outside the Muslim community. Denial that the bad men won't stop at the invisible "Muslim" line.

Because any threat to the feminist, female power of consensus, social disapproval, fashion, fads, and political correctness and multiculturalism (a gigantic, feminine fad or social order akin to the ladies of Jane Austen's day) cannot be tolerated. Like most women, Teresita is willing to deny the obvious threat rather than give up one jot of social power to men who do the protecting.

Naturally, the enemies of teenage Muslim girls are Muslim men like Ahmad allied with Western Women like Teresita. No other political conclusion can be drawn.

For men like Ahmad it is a means of violence to enact control and dominance over not just his Sister but others as well. For women like Teresita, it is not ceding the social power. This is the situation all across the Western World.

5/23/2008 12:11:00 AM  
Blogger Mad Fiddler said...

There is a very great distance for the LEFT to travel fully to comprehend their delusion in relation to finding common ground with militant Islam.

The point the Left have been attempting to make is NOT that a young women may go out alone of an evening without this making her a whore.


Their point has been that we humans have every right to BE unrepentant unashamed whores, to indulge in any sexual activity we wish at any time without any restraint or societal judgment, cost, or legal or medical consequence. Sex is pure and natural, and its pleasures the birthright of all humans, not to be reserved for old-fashioned out-of-date irrelevant MARRIAGE. Who needs a piece of paper from City Hall?

This is one of the cornerstones of the CounterCultural Revolution. (It may also be one of the more successful ideas promoted by ComIntern.)

The only reason --- so the argument has been advanced --- our parents tried to keep us from screwing our brains out when WE were teenagers was that they didn't want us to have any fun!

The tragedy is that the societies that embraced those principles--- free sex, abortion, unfettered pursuit of personal satisfaction --- are precisely the ones now losing ground to the restive third-world immigrant populations they imported starting in the 1960's as unskilled labor to support the high-tax, nanny-state socialist governments they created for themselves.

Lots of sex, though.

What with the Pill, condoms, abortions, and sexual practices that do not lead to pregnancy in any obvious way, birth rates are way down for many "aboriginal" European native populations. No such constraints on the immigrant birth rates. It is estimated that many European countries will be see their original populations in the minority within two generations.

Things are bound to get increasingly interesting in the EU.

The irony of Robert Kennedy's quote is bitter: "Some see the world as it is and ask 'Why?' I see the world as it could be and ask 'Why Not?' "

Sorry, Bobby. Just wanting the world to be the way you want it to be doesn't make it so.

You can't make the Militant Muslims accept homosexuality and sexual freedom for women just by clasping hands or singing puerile little protest songs.

5/23/2008 12:24:00 AM  
Blogger Your Correspondent said...

Different societies kill women differently. In the West, a woman is more likely to be killed by a lover than a brother, so we don't suspect siblings. The Germans probably were blinded, partially, by their own cultural expectations. As well, perhaps, by the easy tendency to look the other way. But now they know. Crimes of violence are different in the different communities and the police need to be on the lookout.

The percentage of women murdered the West might, actually, be higher than in the Muslim societies. I don't know.

But I'd hazard an estimate that the percentage of women killed by automobile accidents in the West is higher than any murder rate.

Nevertheless, it's a death penalty crime to stab your sister 20 times. Too bad they don't have a death penalty. The execution would be educational.

5/23/2008 12:47:00 AM  
Blogger Quig said...


Well spoken sir! I am in total agreement.

5/23/2008 02:33:00 AM  
Blogger 3Case said...

As am I.

5/23/2008 04:15:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Maria Sue Chapman, R.I.P. (2003-2008)

5/23/2008 04:53:00 AM  
Blogger Charles said...

imho much as in gentics where +-1% of the genes distinguish humans from chimps, the qualities of hate are 99% similiar to love. Its the 1% that makes all the difference.

The actual opposite of love is fear. Why? “There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear” (1 Jn. 4:18).

5/23/2008 04:56:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

"She spins and she sways to whatever song plays,
Without a care in the world.
And I’m sittin’ here wearin’ the weight of the world on my shoulders.
It’s been a long day and there’s still work to do,
She’s pulling at me saying “Dad I need you!
There’s a ball at the castle and I’ve been invited and I need to practice my dancin’
“Oh please, daddy, please!”

So I will dance with Cinderella
While she is here in my arms
‘Cause I know something the prince never knew
Oh I will dance with Cinderella
I don’t wanna miss even one song,
Cuz all too soon the clock will strike midnight
And she’ll be gone

She says he’s a nice guy and I’d be impressed
She wants to know if I’d approve of a dress
She says “Dad, the prom is just one week away,
And I need to practice my dancin’”
“Oh please, daddy, please!”

So I will dance with Cinderella
While she is here in my arms
‘Cause I know something the prince never knew
Ohh-oh ohh-oh, I will dance with Cinderella
I don’t wanna miss even one song,
‘Cuz all too soon the clock will strike midnight
And she’ll be gone
She will be gone.

Well, she came home today
With a ring on her hand
Just glowin’ and tellin’ us all they had planned
She says “Dad, the wedding’s due six months away
And I need to practice my dancin’
“Oh please, daddy please!”

So I will dance with Cinderella
While she is here in my arms
‘Cause I know something the prince never knew
Ohh-oh ohh-oh, I will dance with Cinderella
I don’t wanna miss even one song,
(even one song)
Cuz all too soon the clock will strike midnight
And she’ll be gone

5/23/2008 05:19:00 AM  
Blogger Pax Federatica said...

marcus aurelius: What would have been the cost of interfering here? Riots? A knife in the belly, heart, or a nice new scarlet "necktie"?

Indeed, if the ones in a position to interfere were like-minded Muslims, the cost would have been eternal damnation, which dwarfs any of the above possibilities.

This, of course, is the same mindset that has made it so hard for the U.S. to win "hearts and minds" over from Islamists in Afghanistan and Iraq. The Islamist threat to Muslims isn't exactly "Cooperate with the Americans and we'll kill you", it's more like "Cooperate with the Americans and we'll try to kill you, but even if we fail to do so, you will eventually die someday, and when you do, Allah will send you to Hell."

In both cases, it's one thing to risk incurring the wrath of your co-religionists by acting for the good of your larger society, or vice versa. But once your place in the afterlife enters the equation, it tends to hopelessly skew that decision in one direction.

5/23/2008 05:46:00 AM  
Blogger PapaBear said...

whiskey_199: well said

A quote widely attributed to George Orwell:
"We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm"

The above is anathema to feminists and pacifists, since it points out that they and their philosophies are parasitic on a host system that protects them sufficiently that they can spew utter foolishness.

Germany's problem is that the wars of the early 20th Century seems to have eliminated much of their genetic supply of rough men. Perhaps that was necessary for the wider peace, but it may be fatal for Germany's long term future

5/23/2008 06:40:00 AM  
Blogger mercutio said...

If change is to come, it will have to come from women such as Irshad Manji, Muslim feminist lesbian writer etc. She's pissing from inside the tent, so to speak, declaring herself Muslim but non-conformist.

Her book "The Problem with Islam Today" provides piercing critiques of contemporary Islamism, including a dismantling of Islamic anti-Semitism and even a defence of Israel. Her view of a past Islam that accomodated diverse religious views is naively irenic, but I appreciate her guts.

Quite hot, too.

5/23/2008 07:48:00 AM  
Blogger Jrod said...

As much as I wish it were possible, I have to disagree when you say that if change comes it has to come from people like Ms. Manji (and Ms. Hirsi-Ali as well).

Faith must be fungible, and I believe that the secular alternatives to Islam that Ms. Manji offers are not readily exchangeable with the fundamental tenets of any faith, especially Islam.

Maybe Freud could speak to the possibility that Ahmad figured that if he couldn't have his sister then no man could; and only having to answer to Allah made the decision to murder her with malice all the easier.

5/23/2008 10:00:00 AM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

Is this not a variant of the Kitty Genovese, except that the bystander is the German and /or Euro government(s)?

It seems to me that this comment is part of the search for equivalence between them and us, that surely they are just as human as we are, if we can just learn to understand them.

No, it's not the same. No matter how it's done an honor killing is marked by premeditation, and usually careful planning. They are *never* crimes of passion as we (and the French) understand a sudden and temporary loss of sanity leading to grim bloodshed.

Frequently the whole clan is involved, there is careful planning and preparation, and lies are told to the victim to lure her into a situation where she can be set upon, usually by a gang of adult men. Muslims defending their honor are nothing if not cowards when it comes to doing it one-on-one.

Kitty Genovese's murder involved a neighborhood overhearing something that they weren't quite sure what was going on, or whether intervention was necessary -- there was no advanced warning that it was going to happen. If you're comparing the German government or even German neighbors to the neighbors in that NY neighborhood, then I'd still have to say that in Germany, knowing that there is premeditated murder going on in their society, they *should* be making preparations to deal with these activities.

But then we also know what sort of neighbors Germans are historically, with their remarkable ability to overlook trains full of Jewish prisoners, and clouds of funny-smelling black smoke billowing out of the camp next door.

When American neighbors in the city where Kitty Genovese was killed see clouds of funny-smelling black smoke billowing around *their* city, they track down the perps and kick some serious ass. You take down two of our buildings, we'll take down two of your countries.

That is an example of both a crime of passion AND an honor killing, for the Shariah-lovers among us.

5/23/2008 11:04:00 AM  
Blogger Alexis said...

Planned Parenthood and other feminist factions have gone out of their way to destroy the maternal instinct, to the extent of promoting forms of infanticide. The agenda of twentieth century feminism has been to promote “Girl Power”, which is not the same as power for women. “Girl Power” is actually antithetical to Gynekratia. Matriarchal societies encourage men to become warriors to protect women. In contrast, “Girl Power” is a movement of rich female spoiled brats who seek all of the power of men but without any of a patriarch’s responsibility.

Proponents of “Girl Power” will naturally make excuses for Islamists and see moral equivalence between their own relatives and the barbarian. They are no different from Honoria, who proposed marriage to Attila the Hun, thus creating his pretext to conquer the Western Roman Empire. Honoria is representative of “Girl Power”, not womanhood.

There may be those who proclaim America to be a land where children become dead sacrifices to the sick vanity of masochistic feminism. There may be those who proclaim the West as the land of Medea and Andrea Yates, females proclaimed as heroines because they would murder their children. There may be those who would advocate an ideal motherhood as one where a mother would give her son’s head over to the barbarian to serve as his drinking cup, a sacrifice on the altar of “Peace In Our Time”. But this is not the America I know. This madhouse ideal of femininity does not represent the women in my life. Women can be strong. A republic cannot stay free for long without strong women who raise strong men.

On a biological level, an older woman has nothing to gain from the murder of her sons and grandsons. She has nothing to gain from the sacking of her city. Historically, a concerned matriarch who cares about the welfare of her grandchildren is more likely to vote than a girl filled with vanity and devoid of meaningful responsibility. As long as America has strong women, our civilization’s future is bright.

Strong women
Strong men
Strong nation

5/23/2008 01:08:00 PM  
Blogger 3Case said...

Main Entry:

\ˈī-rə-nē also ˈī(-ə)r-nē\
Inflected Form(s):
plural iro·nies
Latin ironia, from Greek eirōnia, from eirōn dissembler

1: a pretense of ignorance and of willingness to learn from another assumed in order to make the other's false conceptions conspicuous by adroit questioning —called also Socratic irony2 a: the use of words to express something other than and especially the opposite of the literal meaning b: a usually humorous or sardonic literary style or form characterized by irony c: an ironic expression or utterance3 a (1): incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and the normal or expected result (2): an event or result marked by such incongruity b: incongruity between a situation developed in a drama and the accompanying words or actions that is understood by the audience but not by the characters in the play —called also dramatic irony, tragic irony

I'm not sure how one finds equivalence between alleged indifferent Queens neighbors and the German and/or various Euro governments, but then to each their own....

5/23/2008 06:04:00 PM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

Main Entry:

Pronunciation: Hack (like a cough)

Plural: hacks (as in, many posters on internet blogs are not writers but are, most definitely, hacks)
Etymology: 3Case

Definition: Someone who is such a poor writer that s/he cannot get their point across elegantly and succinctly, and then blames the reader for misunderstanding. (If it was, indeed, a misunderstanding, and not a backdown upon being called out for a stupid comment.)


5/23/2008 10:30:00 PM  
Blogger 3Case said...

Main Entry:
John Duns Scotus, whose once accepted writings were ridiculed in the 16th century

: a slow-witted or stupid person

I'm not sure how one finds equivalence between alleged indifferent Queens neighbors and the German and/or various Euro governments, but then to each their own....

If you are incapable of discerning the differences between the Queens neighbors at 2 a.m. on an empty street and a host of Euro governments confronted with regular "honor" killings, then I can see how you might find equivalence.

I'm not here to do your thinking.

Finally, search this site for my advice to C4 regarding the resort to ad hominem attacks. It's a ways back. I'm also not here to do your research.


5/24/2008 03:56:00 AM  

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