Hitler at Columbia
To everything there is a season,
a time for every purpose under the sun.
A time to be born and a time to die;
a time to plant and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
a time to kill and a time to heal ...
a time to weep and a time to laugh;
a time to mourn and a time to dance ...
a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing;
a time to lose and a time to seek;
a time to rend and a time to sew;
a time to keep silent and a time to speak;
a time to love and a time to hate;
a time for war and a time for peace.
And those who can't tell the difference are idiot savants of the worst kind. For some it is only ever a time to prattle. One man who might have held seminars on the combustibility of the human body while ovens at Auschwitz consumed their ghastly fuel is in the video below. What is moral blindness but the inability to tell right from wrong, friend from enemy, love from hate? And what is moral deafness but a man who can hear words and never understand their meaning?
Here's John Coatsworth, dean of the School of International and Public Affairs at Columbia, (video after Read More) defending the decision to invite the Mahmoud Ahmadinejad by declaring he would invite Hitler to speak if the Fuhrer were visiting at the "League of Nations" in New York and were willing to answer questions. Note to Coatsworth: Franklin Roosevelt and Winston Churchill envisioned the United Nations in 1942 as an alliance to fight tyranny -- specifically Adolph Hitler. Had Hitler been been in New York to speak in 1942 they would have hanged him. But then, neither Roosevelt nor Churchill "wanted to understand Hitler". They wanted to defeat him.
posted by wretchardthecat at 9/23/2007 02:59:00 AM
74 Comments:
We will see what kind of a "debate and discussion" Columbia is capable and willing to present when Hilter's little cousin comes for a friendly visit wearing his special quasi military jacket and flashing those pretty eyes onto our smart and so well educated Columbia students and facult.
Cancer can in fact find a home somewhere...
More and more I find myself thinking that nothing short of a cataclysm or divine intervention is going to solve these problems and rid us of people like Bollinger... let alone Ahmedinejad.
If ever I prayed for a natural disaster to happen, I hope a steaming, lava-filled fault line suddenly opens under the auditorium Monday.
I'm looking out the window on a perfect day. The streets are clean. There's no disorder. The sounds of happy people getting together in a little garden restaurant not far away can heard when it's quiet enough. If I had lived in Australia all my life I could believe the whole world was that way.
And then I might sign those Greenpeace petitions; listen to speakers at those Bush=Hitler demonstrations expound on how bright the world might be if only we saw it so. And then I might think things were only a matter of words; to be listened to, considered afterward with friends at a cafe; and thought of while lying quietly in bed in a home that is always there.
But if you are unfortunate enough to know at first hand the evil that men do when you are not on your guard; if you have had to devote many years of your life to obtaining freedom; sleeping fitfully like the fugitive you are in a different place every night. If you knew that -- then you would know that the happy voices in the garden restaurant down the street are only safe because some men keep them safe and that the day may come when weariness or inattention will drop the guard. And then you look out the window with other eyes and hear the wind with other ears.
If a Hitler came down the street my first duty, to my wife, my child and to myself will be to shoot him.
Yeah, because refusing to talk to 2nd rate threats is dangerous and unproductive, but at the height of the Cold War Khruschev was in Iowa yakking it up with farmers and scholars. That was because the Soviet Union was a 1st rate threat, I guess. And besides the Soviet biggies hanging with US biggies and meeting Joe Public, we also had tons of visiting Soviet (read 1/3rd KGB) scholars and cultural people. And we had Americans allowed into the Warsaw Pact and visiting much of the Soviet Union..
But ever since Castro there is this hysteria that talking to evil despots is a bad idea and the way to drive Castro to his knees would be to refuse to talk and have a trade embargo.
Followed by the blind obedience to "The Israeli Experts" that lectured us that no one ever, ever should sit down and talk, let alone negotiate, with terrorist evil-doers.
If Hitler HAD come to the US in 1938, look at cows assholes and the World's Fair and visit the places in America where we once made stuff before China crushed us - and wanted to talk about affairs - considering what happened later, it couldn't have hurt.
The problem with Ahmendinejad is he is just a lacky. Not even electable as a "mouth" to the real power, Supreme Cleric Khameini, without help. What he says is not as important as the clerics say.
On the other hand, it would be very productive to have President Bashar of Syria, Chavez, Raoul Castro stop by and chat with press and visit with Americans during their UN visits.
But we should also seek our natural allies and neutral nations out for dialogue - even more than our enemies. To Bush, they don't exist. He and the neocons are fixated on "big league countries" (NATO, Aussies, Bank of China, Bank of Japan, Russia) and Israel (from the great financial hold it's boosters exert on US policy). The rest of the world has little outreach by America.
Just a test...
Cedarford said,
If Hitler HAD come to the US in 1938 ... and wanted to talk about affairs - considering what happened later, it couldn't have hurt.
Fighting and persevering in war is always a matter of political will. Since we're just speculating, suppose Hitler had charmed the gullible among us, and energized the German-American Bund, just enough to keep us out of the European theater? Could that "have hurt"?
Or, even if we had still fought, suppose Hitler's "charm offensive" weakened our national resolve to keep fighting when things got tough? Could that "have hurt"?
Propaganda is not an intellectual exercise. It is a crucial element of war. The propagandist uses truth, reason and logic only as necessary. Lies and emotion usually serve best. Hitler was a master, and Ahmadinejad seems to relish it too.
This Cedarford guy can't be serious.
This is the first time I've been able to log on to this wonderful site, and I promise I won't do it too often... for which Cedarford ought to be grateful. I don't mince my words.
I've watched his anti-Israel (read anti-Jew) obsessions for a few years now, and I've been able - in my spare moments - to set up a vague, but not-very-pretty psychological profile of him.
As for this comment by Wretchard:
"If a Hitler came down the street my first duty, to my wife, my child and to myself will be to shoot him."
It's perfect. Right Cedarford?
Oh and by the way Cedarford, it's not "Israeli Experts," it's "Israeli Masters."
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Cedarfard,
1/ How many Americans did the Soviets kill?
2/ How many Nazis who killed Americans did the Soviets kill?
3/ Why do you think the political rivalry between the Soviets and the Americans was called a cold war?
CEDARFORD: He and the neocons are fixated on "big league countries" (NATO, Aussies, Bank of China, Bank of Japan, Russia) and Israel (from the great financial hold it's boosters exert on US policy). The rest of the world has little outreach by America.
On the contrary, it is written, Bush has increased direct development and humanitarian aid to Africa to more than $4 billion a year from $1.4 billion in 2001, according to the Paris-based Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development.
Gee, sorry, but in 1938, Hitler was just a potential threat. Plenty of Americans considered the Bolsheviks and imperialism equal or greater in threat potential to fascism. Trade between Germany and the USA flourished and was helping bring the US out of the Depression.
To argue that we couldn't dare talk to Hitler because we are a gullible, stupid people easily manipulated by a smart guy like him doesn't argue for you "No Talk Ever!" folks having a very high opinion of Americans...
In the 50s, we had no problem talking with the Red enemy. Later, Nixon had true dialogue with both the Soviets and Chinese as opposed to the stunted summits of the past. Reagan was confident enough to lecture the Russians AND to sit down with them.
Lately we have had this stupid notion that we should be afraid of talking with our enemies - that somehow it must be that they do as we wish or we must go to war with them, but no compromises, no diplomacy.
We should be very afraid of Americans visiting Cuba - God knows what thoughts they could put in our heads. We shouldn't trade with them because our policy aimed at swiftly driving Castro to his knees economically is only 45 years old...barely getting underway.
Our 20 year policy of Never, Ever talking to the Vietnamese nearly handed them over to their ancient enemy, the Chinese.
In 1938, Hitler was the most popular person in Europe. If he or other Nazis had come to the USA, maybe we could have gone part way towards addressing the "great grievances" of Germany,(many quite legitimate) put off it's goal of expansion, and helped carve out economic "spheres of influence" in East Europe for Germany and Russia -without spreading Bolshevikism or fascism and keeping those nation's sovereignity intact. In 1939, Hitler had no plans for a Europe-wide war. Nazis wanted the Jewish question resolved - back in 1938 the Nazis were working with Zionist leadership and setting up zionist camps in the hopes the Jews would be self-deporting. FDR didn't want them, but neither did the Brits. With talks, perhaps a different outcome could have resulted with US pressure to open up Palestine to mass immigration, or Madagascar, or facilitation of talks with Stalin to accept the Jewish communists in the West for a carve-out Soviet for them East of the Urals...maybe the roadblock Germany met from what later became "The Big Three" could have been at least partially removed..It was the Jewish communists that Hitler, the Nazis, and many more in Europe, including Winston Churchill - were very concerned about. If Hitler had come to America and talked about the Jewish problem and the relationship the Nazis were trying to forge with the Zionists - maybe a different "solution" other than the horrific one the Nazis finally settled on was doable...
With Iran, Iran has certain needs that talks wouldn't hurt addressing. Maybe they won't help...but:
1. Their proxy war with us inside Iraq that are killing US troops.
2. Iran's legitimate security needs, surrounded by nations that want Iranian territory, have attacked Iran, have nukes aimed at Iran, and from thugs like AQ and Saddam - have seen religious war waged against Shiites.
3. Irans stagnant economy, how we could work to mutual benefit, and their long-term need for electric energy supplies.
4. The internal strife now raging in Iran. Press Iran on reforms, or hold their feet to the fire on a visit.
5. Resuming the cooperation they earlier gave us in fighting AQ and the Taliban.
6. Our long term need for a stable ME with reliable energy supply, blunting Soviet encroachment into the area. Iran also has 1/4th of the world's natural gas and most of that is not being developed because Iran lacks the capital and the rule of law to attract foreign capital. But India and China are now highly interested in co-opting the West and having those Iranian oil and gas deposits all to themselves.
7. Issues about Iran and the large Iranian diaspora now resident in the West.
Wait a minute, I'm confused.
If we are at a state of war with Iran why is our government talking to them about security in Iraq? If we are at a state of war with Iran why is Ahmedinejad not being arrested by our government and hung?
Why do people want to attack the most internationally recognized success story in America--higher education--for doing exactly what our government is doing, talking to Iran?
The forces that run Columbia University did not show their willingness to see or hear all sides of one issue.
When the leader of The Minutemen came to speak, a 60s-style intimidation performance of high quality ensued. We know how powerful The Minutemen are.
I'm sure that when someone truly powerful speaks at Columbia, he will be treated with all the respect he deserves.
Hitler is Cedarford's Mohammed. All the nasty talk about Nazism and Islamofascism is because wonderful people like Hitler and Achmonutjob are the victims of Zionist propaganda and misunderstood.
The guy deserves a Louisville Slugger imprint across the forehead. Nothing less.
Wow, another gem from C4:
It was the Jewish communists that Hitler, the Nazis, ...were very concerned about.
Yeah, they had no problem with the millions of others they murdered.
And the main lesson he takes from WWII? Not enough appeasement.
Kevin,
We are not in a state of war with Iran, because many have overstated the threat Iran poses to the supply of oil from the Gulf. I happen to think that, as of today, the Iranian ability to pose a credible threat to that oil supply is highly overrated. Iran is a two bit player, both economically and militarily. It's regime members should be treated as two bit common criminals and their imperial holdings placed on the chopping block.
When the world is one.
Once all nations are joined together and the fighting has stopped.
Once there are no more borders and silly laws for everything.
Once there are no more taxes to pay for governments to do infrastructure and welfare.
Once there is only one committee running the planet and making sure we don't pollute our world.
We will finally have peace among nations. And then we will be free to enjoy the anarchy, starvation and disease that comes with it.
Once no one has the obligation or opportunity to work or create anything.
Once brutal street gangs run local matters. We shall finally have peace.
Watch for World Peace 2 "No more Infidels" coming to theater near you soon.
Watch for World Peace 3 "No more Muslims" (in Chinese only) coming soon to theaters where there are Chinese people ... which will be pretty much everywhere.
We will not be in Kansas anymore.
Sixty-nine years ago, Jewish groups were protesting another controversial visitor to the United States. Her name was Leni Riefenstahl.
In 1938, Columbia University certainly had the opportunity to invite Leni Riefenstahl to speak. They could have even asked her to screen her film Olympia. For whatever reason, Columbia University passed up that opportunity. Imagine that.
Although Leni Riefenstahl did obtain a private audience with Walt Disney and did arrange for a private screening of her movie in Los Angeles (for fifty people, and she got excellent reviews), her reception was chilly at best.
Given how Columbia University (so far as I know) never invited Leni Riefenstahl to speak there, perhaps it is attempting to make up for lost time.
A time to gull the weak,
A time to cull the weak,
Der Spigel has a WWII historiography with two pertinent sections. One displays recently released photos of Auschwitz guards yukking it up with willing Frauleins during their genocide downtime. The other is a display of Nazi tourism posters promoting the good life under National Socialism. Millions of Germans took advantage of these government subsidized vacations. Nothing like a day on the beach under that Teutonic sun to get your Heil Hitlers flowing.
I suppose the point of mulling through these very ordinary scenes is that what happens outside our own little world is important, even when we choose to ignore it. Granting the Iranian gnome the prestige of an Ivy League forum isn't going to immediately result in any horrors but it does bring us all one step closer to making the horrors of WWII a little bit more "normal."
As for Cedarford, the only thing separating him from participating in the Auschwitz generation is the accident of time.
Remember there were Germans who left working the ovens in Auschwitz to go home and celebrate Christmas with their families...
I know who my enemies are: Iran's leadership is one of my enemies. The clowns at Columbia are being flanked and invaded by my enemies.
Real trouble is brewing, has been for some time. Cowards live and run that university; it's just that simple.
Bob Kerry should soon be weighing in on this mess. Expect him to side with the Clintons.
The "fog" of great leadership still eludes many people who want and some who claim to be leaders.
Wretchard,
This is an email I sent to bloggers at the Atlantic Monthly. Since you are similarly positioned, I will post it here as well:
This is regarding the Columbian dean John Coatsworth's comment about inviting Hitler. This is a great opportunity for a pro-US propaganda coup. Coatsworth should, "after reflection", modify his stance and make reciprocity a condition of Ahmadinejad being allowed to speak. If he wants to speak, he must allow Coatsworth to speak to Iranian university students about Western principles of free inquiry and freedom of conscience.
The Golden Rule is the solution here, no?
Should this meme jump the spark gap, we might turn this whole mess around. Either Coatsworth will be definitely exposed as a craven appeaser by refusing this "out", or, if Coatsworth takes it, he will put Ahmadinejad, and the Iranian Government in general, in an unwelcome predicament.
If Ahmadinejad accepts the deal, we win. If he refuses, we win. What do you say?
Kevin said:
Why do people want to attack the most internationally recognized success story in America--higher education...
1. You act as if "internationally recognized" is something to aspire towards. It's the same meme as "we're failures of the other guys hate us", which I reject. I'm not going to base my self-worth on recognition and praise by the bunch of illiterate thugocracies that make up the UN.
2. If our "educational system" *is* internationally recognized what does that say about the intelligence and accomplishment levels of the rest of the world? Just because a bunch of Arabs and Africans and Asians who are stuck in the 13th century want to come here to learn their reading, writing an rithmatic does NOT mean that our system is "recognized" for anything other than, simply, being.
3. The system in the United States has been moving towards PC correct brainwashing for quite some time, if indeed, it ever did use a Socractic questioning method. Currently the political correctness being taught is totally anti-American and anti-Constitution, and that is why the education system is being attacked.
Inviting Ahmanwhoosit to speak at Columbia is merely the latest example of the American educationl system's tone deafness, which can take its place with hiring Ward Churchill, the Duke rape case, and schools throughout the country showing preference for Muslims by building them footbaths, revising menu's to feed them their barbaric fallafal food, and giving them they're own segregated-by-sex prayer rooms.
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But, hermanos, it is not 1942, if utilizing the Hitler analogy, it is not 1942 at all.
It's the summer of 1938
Time - Man of the Year - 1938
Written at the very peak of his political successes, this Time magazine article conferring on Adolf Hitler its coveted "Man of the Year Award" for 1938 offers a fascinating contemporary perspective of the Fuhrer prior to the outbreak of WW II.
While acknowledging that in less than six years he had accomplished a remarkable transformation of the German spirit - he is "applauded wildly and ecstatically by most Germans" - there are no false illusions about the dangers he posed - "Hitler became in 1938 the greatest threatening force that the democratic, freedom - loving world faces."
The Hitler Analogy may well be correct ...
The Timeline is off, that's all.
Instapundit.com: "HOW TO SABOTAGE AHMADINEJAD: Have some scantily-clad coed run up and give him a kiss. Make sure photos are distributed in Iran."
I'm usually with you, wretchard, but I'm having trouble this week, because this week "town/gown" or is that "realist/clown" relations have surfaced in several contexts. Let's pile them up:
Ahmadinejad speaking at Columbia
Rumsfeld joining Hoover
Chereminsky fired/rehired at UC
Summers disinvited by UC regents
Churchill finally fired in Colo.
Dartmouth disenfranchising alumnae.
The thing is, it's very tough from close up to say this one's ok, but that one's not. Certainly Hitler, after he started invading other countries would be out of bounds, but before? Flimsy grounds. Ahmadinejad is just now transitioning from acceptable to unacceptable, as his meddling in Iraq and Lebanon becomes more overt. But, say, 1 year ago?
I'm usually ok with a bit of hypocrisy, but Bollinger's move to welcome a gay-murdering Holocaust denier while rejecting ROTC because of its discriminatory policies, is too much for me. But that's about Bollinger, not the larger subject of which voices should be allowed in academe.
I was at a screenwriting workshop at a church in washington dc. sponsored by a hollywood industry christian organization. apparently christian communities around the USA view hollywood as an appropriate missions field. so there is some effort to train and equip more christian executives writers directors set designers etc.
good idea imho.
during the last session's q & a I mentioned that the last time there was such an underground conscious effort to shape the hollywood message was back in the 1940's when the communists were active there.
During the early 1950's their activities were brought to light during the McCarthy & HUAC hearings. Yet it was McCarthy who was destroyed and the godless communist vision for america which became dominant in hollywood.
So I asked them if they couldn't write a script in which McCarthy was the hero.
Judging by the response I got --a pro McCarthy script would still be a career killer.
Even New York Stalinists like Pete Seeger have gotten the word that old Joe was an evil mass murderer like Hitler.
Even still it may be another 10 years before the true nature of the McCarthy blood libel the communists inflicted on the American people is fully explained.
Cedarford:
What you suggested should/could have happened in the US in 1938 did happen in England. Nazi's were welcomed into the homes of Briton's to share understanding and grievances. As time went on, those who welcomed them, and who also to an extent sympathized with them were condemned. Why? Because it was a systematic propaganda ploy. The Nazi's used the fools to advance their aims.
On the other hand, Gorbachev and aides visited Canada a number of years ago. I'm not sure it he was chief yet or not. The story goes that they and their entourage and Canadian 'handlers' stopped in a grocery store in some hicktown in the prairies. The russians thought that it was a propaganda ploy, a well stocked grocery store in some little town. No, here we'll show you another. Gorbachev went home with a conviction that something was severely wrong in the USSR when they couldn't stock their grocery stores like Canada. The rest, as we say, is history.
I guess the real question is whether there is a question of who will win. Or rather confidence of who will win. Wretchard thinks that there is a question. You seem to think that the stability of the western states is a given, and what harm could come of it.
Derek
Wiki:
"Turn! Turn! Turn! (To Everything There Is a Season)", ... is a song written and composed by Pete Seeger in the 1950s. Seeger waited until 1962 to record it, releasing the song on his album The Bitter and The Sweet...
"The lyrics are taken almost verbatim from the King James version of the Bible (Ecclesiastes 3, verses 1–8)… The lines are open to myriad interpretations, but as a song they are commonly performed as a plea for world peace, with stress on the closing line: 'a time for peace, I swear it's not too late,' the latter phrase being the only part of the lyric written by Seeger himself...
"Handwritten lyrics to the song were among the documents donated to New York University by the Communist Party USA in March 2007[1]."
Those 60s acolytes of peace, love and understanding who head up many of our universities, studios in Hollywood, and classrooms and newsrooms across America keep turning. They’ve turned common moral sense from the Bible into hash and have been turning away from the meaning of words and a blind eye to the immorality of monsters who purvey them. Meaning and morality are being deconstructed and then reassembled into a governance of our betters, by our betters, and for our betters for a most wicked peace many idealists and dissenters have no idea they'll have to endure, as well. Good intentions and all that, but also willful blindness and practiced deception that keep alive the hope of totalitarianism.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9WT6-BIav2I [Seeger]
http://youtube.com/watch?v=DejUPN4SksU [Judy Collins]
Cedarford, I have to wonder, has your Jew-hatred skewed every reasoning process in your brain? My answer would be yes.
By 1938, it was clear from Hitler's aggressive annexations, rearmament program, proxy fighting, that he was a mortal threat to the US. Since he was clearly poised to dominate Europe, very likely in concert with fellow dictator Stalin. Which in and of itself was a mortal threat to the interests of the United States. Patrick Buchanon's Bundist isolation fantasies notwithstanding.
Allowing Hitler an opportunity to propagandize among people like yourself who hate Jews more than they love America (and indeed, most Bundists hated America precisely because it allowed Jews to live here) would have been a disaster, preventing Lend-Lease and US-British cooperation before Dec 11, 1941.
Bollinger and the other Columbia idiots are much like Cedarford, filled with Jew-hatred, and also America-hatred (because America allows Jews, "uncool" working/middle class people, those awful evangelicals and the like opportunities to live their own lives). They are also confusing the Cold War problem (how to prevent global nuclear war hair-triggers from being pulled) with the danger of Ahmadinejad and the Mullahs. The latter of which is how to deter a foreign power convinced there are no serious consequences to a nuclear attack on the US, either from "deniable" proxies or paralyzed domestic weak appeasers.
Iranians clearly see America as a mixture of "don't taze me bro" idiots and cross-dressing fools "leave Britney alone!" That's a view GUARANTEED to provoke a nuclear attack when Iran has sufficient weapons. As Putin observed, the weak get beaten. We appear weak to the Iranians.
Abazaid might be right that Iran *IS* deterrable, but only if Iran's leaders see unmistakably US ability AND WILL to erase not only the nation of Iran, but most/all of Islam. Since from Khomeni onwards the Islamic Republic has explicitly stated their concern for the Iranian nation does not exist, only the ideals of the Islamic Republic which is explicitly stated as a world-wide conquering body. Given US weakness and appeasement since 1979, including non-responses to the acts of war: Embassy takeover, Khobar Towers, and killing US troops in Iraq by Iranian IRGC, this is a huge problem.
Kevin: Our government including Bush's Admin is divided. One sees Iran's myriad attacks on the US that constitute ongoing acts of war. The other wants peace at any price like the University system. Echoing Oxford's resolve not to fight for King and Country prior to WWII (which encouraged Hitler that Britain would collapse easily). In that he was nearly right, almost alone Churchill wanted to fight -- all the rest of Britain's leadership wanted to surrender to Hitler. Like Cedarford they shared most of Hitler's objectives including the Final Solution. Eerie how the Left also to this day shares Ahmadinejad's desire to "wipe Israel off the map." Should a nuke kill most Israelis I expect the Left/Dems to be dancing in the streets like Palestinians on 9/11. Or Bill Maher's audience when Scheuer talked about how Israel should be destroyed.
The fundamental issue we face is completely opposite of the Cold War. Not preventing hair triggers from being pulled but rather convincing the enemy that we can and will destroy everything he values if we are attacked. Given that technology and world trade allows both deniable proxies and world markets for nukes and ICBMs (the latter more than 40 year old technology) our threats are radically different.
Nahncee said:
"I'm not going to base my self-worth on recognition and praise by the bunch of illiterate thugocracies that make up the UN."
Exactly. Anybody who is praised by the U.N. ought to be very ashamed indeed.
It stands to reason that such a change of sentiment would be in vogue today. US campuses have been open and friendly to representatives of Marxist despotries for dacades - it is not hard to see that other socialists, such as representatives of Hitler's ideology, might be likewise welcome at a time when anti-Semitism has, once again, become popular with the Left.
Remember that in the late 30's Bolsheviks were openly in alliance with the Nazis, and split Poland between them. At the time "anti-war"/pro-Stalin groups were almost friendly with the Nazis. So none of this is new.
Cedarford, an apostle of the Chamberlain school of international relations and of the "peace in our time" fantasy, is shallow and delusional in his "thinking". The "problem" that Cd refers to was not a problem until Hitler made it so. Then, because Hitler created a problem, it needed to be "solved". What Cd outlines as the efforts to "solve the problem" were simply pretexts to further support the assertion that there was a problem. The anti-Semitism which was present in England and the US at the time speaks to the temper of the times. That anti-Semitism became a central, driven problem in Germany was because Hitler and Goebbels created it and then sustained it. It was validated, systematized and bureaucratized at the Wannsee Conference in 1942.
Cedarford is simply an anti-Semite with a thin veneer of "facts" to shade his malignancy.
Prior to 1939 there were many attempts to "engage" Hitler who was believed by many to be a "normal" leader simply seeking redress for the humiliations imposed by Versailles. But when that phase ended -- when Hitler manifestly become someone to be feared -- a second phase began. There came the idea that he was too dangerous to fight and could by diplomatic brilliance, be made to turn East, led by a trail of breadcrumbs, so that he could become a bulwark against Bolshevism. But little was done to deter him because any Western rearmament would touch the Third Rails of pre-war politics: money in an age of Depression and war-preparations at a time when pacificism, driven by the memory of the Great War was so powerful.
That inviting a pre-war Hitler to speak, on a visit to the League of Nations, could have helped prevent World War 2, repeats the errors mentioned above. Hitler did not need engagement; he did not need understanding. He required deterrence and, when on the march, he needed rebuff. But they steadily let the serpent grow to monstrosity within his translucent egg, watching in paralyzed fascination as it grew its fangs and crushing coils. They did everything but the one thing that would have worked: reaching out and squishing it. While it isn't yet necessary to declare war on Iran or arrest Ahmedinajad it is necessary to move against him and the Islamic regime. Returning to the analogy of a pre-war Hitler, we should have gone ugly early, if only diplomatically.
Finally, I don't think this is a freedom of speech issue at all. On the contrary, it is a speech issue. Ahmedinajad is being invited to speak at Columbia. It is Columbia's speech -- or rather the message of its speech -- that is objectionable. The Iranian President can speak at any time of the day or night. The press will be there to cover every word. His freedom of speech is not under threat. Nor is Columbia's. But it is what Columbia says that is objectionable: it is the approval they give, the legitimacy they confer, the welcome they extend that I object to. And I can object, can't I? Object they are giving aid and comfort to the enemy, albeit an undeclared one. That's within bounds or they are out of it themselves.
There is a time for everything. And this is neither the time to invite Ahmedinajad to speak at a major university nor to give him a tour of Ground Zero.
Next -- Zombies at Columbia!
Let me see if I have this game right.
Little Hitler wannabe visits his friends at Columbia University where he is "grilled for the truth" as to where he and his country stand on a myriad of important issues by people who truly love America and our way of life, our culture.
He teaches everyone the "true art of spinning" by an Evil-doer.
Some months ahead really bad guys, who some in the United States insist on still calling "terrorists," arrive with a nuclear device...don't like this direction?
Ok, let's say a bio-chemical weapon.
It is exploded in New York City, killing thousands, among them the president of Columbia, his deans, and many faculty along with hundreds of students.
Who would have thought a second attack was coming for New York City?
The hated FBI gather enough evidence to prove that Iran had a major hand in this bombing. Now we are way beyond IEDs.
Out on the West coast, relatives of those murdered (or is it those who lost their lives...gotta give a softer spin to be collegiate correct here) sue the Federal Government claiming their loved ones were not properly protected and "warned" about the dangerous realities that existed from the Evil Iranian government.
The Clintons come on tv telling all Americans "we feel your pain!"
The ALCU decides to defend the Iranian government.
I wake up from this nightmare, but it is too late for some.
Lipstick for pigs, it's gonna be a big seller!
Dr. Ferris said...
Remember that in the late 30's Bolsheviks were openly in alliance with the Nazis, and split Poland between them. At the time "anti-war"/pro-Stalin groups were almost friendly with the Nazis. So none of this is new.
9/23/2007 12:13:00 PM
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Remember too that just before he died--Stalin was planning to exterminate the Jews just like Hitler. It was the great genius of American communists to impute to American conservatives what Stalin was about to do the Jews before he died. Communists tag ged McCarthy as an anti semite and his senate hearings as show trials soviet style -- that is a prelude to an American pogrom--for which the Rosenbergs were exhibit A. Never mind that the Rosenbergs were spies or that both the Venona Cables and KGB files confirmed that there were hundreds of soviet spies in the US government under FDR & Truman--ie that McCarthy was right. Never mind that a US pogrom was never in the cards.
The blood libel stuck.
I witnessed its enduring effect yesterday.
But they steadily let the serpent grow to monstrosity within his translucent egg, watching in paralyzed fascination as it grew its fangs and crushing coils. They did everything but the one thing that would have worked: reaching out and squishing it.
Wretchard,
Thank you for those clear words. I hope they'd be followed through with clear action.
Wretchard:
Relative to looking out the window at your “perfect day.”
When I hear someone say “Violence never solved anything,” I want to tell them to perform that same experiment, look out the window, and see if there are any Nazis around.
No? It’s because we blew most of them up. Was darned violent, too.
At Columbia University on Monday if they perform that experiment what will they see?
They will see a Nazi, one that so far we have not blown up. But they won’t realize what they are looking at. And that is the problem.
Charles - Remember too that just before he died--Stalin was planning to exterminate the Jews just like Hitler.
No, that is a fine little piece of self-serving propaganda that "Jews were among the greatest victims of the Communists" or "How could anyone possibly blame Jews for involvement in the Great Democide when Stalin wished to kill off all the Jews"...
Truth is Stalin had developed significant doubts about the patriotism and loyalty of Jews towards the Soviet Union, coupled with concern about Jewish dominance of critical state sectors. He had plans to move a major part of the Jewish population away from ethnic Russians and other minorities...setting up their own enclave, bigger than 2 Israels - as Russia had done in the past with Tatars, Inguish, Chechens, ethnic Germans, Moldavans..
He had no doubt of how valuable Jews had been in advancing Communism or doing it's dirty work in agencies like the Cheka and NKVD. Only that he began to believe they were doing it and dominating sectors of Soviet society for purely their own interests, not the Soviet Unions.
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It is hardly surprising that there are a pack of saber-rattlers who never served who, even knowing now what we didn't know in 1938 - oppose any dialogue with Hitler. With a war that was to take 50 million and the Golbal Communist Demicide still having 95 million more people to destroy globally...talking is bad...
Well, because talking to any bad guy is appeasement. Munich! Munich! Munich!
And anyone who disagrees that people like Castro, Hitler, rulers of Vietnam, Khuschev, Gorbachev, former terrorists like Mandela or Begin, Ahmadinejad, Chavez, etc should NEVER EVER BE allowed to have dialogue with us - is of course an anti-Semite. A monster like the monster he wants us to talk to! Like Nixon! Like McCain! Anti-semitic monsters!
Its an attitude that borders on the infantile. Sally was dissed by Yolanda, neither wants to fight. So Sally refuses to talk to Yolanda until Yoland capitulates. Sally will shun her forever and will be shocked! shocked! when Yolanda then bonds with Sally's worst enemy.
With 150 million lives in the balance, the small chance that listening to Hitler and compromising would have blocked a good part of those deaths seems worth doing. If letting Hitler talk and having a good part of the public determining he was a raving nut - that would have been good too.
If Hitler had said both he and the Zionists wanted Jews to leave W Europe but had no place for them to go(in 1938 the Nazis may well have asked leading Zionists to accompany them to the USA), perhaps the US could have influenced other nations or it's own territories to accept Jews vetted to ensure they weren't Communists or the radical ones the US had to deport for violent subversion in the 20s. And push England to increase Palestine quotas. And pressure the Soviets to accept the communist aspiring Jewish immigrants.
And in 1938, Hitler only had a few thousand victimes. Lenin, the Jewish Bolsheviks, and Stalin had already amassed 25-27 million butchered bodies - and Hitler might have made a good case to Americans that the Communists were the real threat.
And if the West had ganged up on the Bloody Butcher in the Kremlin?
The war, the Cold War, the great future communist democides in Red China, Cambodia, and by bloodthirsty Commie proxie armies and terrorists might have turned out very differently. No Vietnams..
(That is what George Patton suggested before, during, and after the war was basically won..)
National Socialism might have quickly become, in a decade or so, just another welfare state obsessed variant of Euro Socialism.
Slim chance, but worth a talk with the devil back then. Same with Ahmadinejad now.
Derek Kite, although the substance of your post about Canada and supermarkets is probably correct, following is what I was remembering happened, complete with dates and names:
A turning point in Yeltsin's intellectual development occurred during his first visit to the United States in September 1989, more specifically his first visit to an American supermarket, in Houston, Texas. The sight of aisle after aisle of shelves neatly stacked with every conceivable type of foodstuff and household item, each in a dozen varieties, both amazed and depressed him. For Yeltsin, like many other first-time Russian visitors to America, this was infinitely more impressive than tourist attractions like the Statue of Liberty and the Lincoln Memorial. It was impressive precisely because of its ordinariness. A cornucopia of consumer goods beyond the imagination of most Soviets was within the reach of ordinary citizens without standing in line for hours. And it was all so attractively displayed. For someone brought up in the drab conditions of communism, even a member of the relatively privileged elite, a visit to a Western supermarket involved a full-scale assault on the senses.
"What we saw in that supermarket was no less amazing than America itself," recalled Lev Sukhanov, who accompanied Yeltsin on his trip to the United States and shared his sense of shock and dismay at the gap in living standards between the two superpowers. "I think it is quite likely that the last prop of Yeltsin's Bolshevik consciousness finally collapsed after Houston. His decision to leave theparty and join the struggle for supreme power in Russia may have ripened irrevocably at that moment of mental confusion."
On the plane, traveling from Houston to Miami, Yeltsin seemed lost in his thoughts for a long time. He clutched his head in his hands. Eventually he broke his silence. "They had to fool the people," he told Sukhanov. "It is now clear why they made it so difficult for the average Soviet citizen to go abroad. They were afraid that people's eyes would open."
http://www.sheilaomalley.com/archives/000698.html
I simply cannot allow Canada to appropriate yet another good American story. Next you know, they'll be remembering the Alamo in Montreal.
Wretchard,
A little off-topic, but I have been watching Ken Burns' series on World War 2. He has just finished reviewing the Bataan Death march.
I have posted on my blog: I never want to hear again from the moral cretins who refer to what the US has done during the Iraq war as “torture.”
The same people who did not know Hitler and the evil that he represented do not know torture. Damn them to hell.
Cedarford, I have no problem with our government talking with those kind and sensitive boys from Iran.
My problem is with the pansies at Columbia, those quasi elites who think they know how to run the world, or at least this country. These kind of games are always one way, then later, our sons and daughters are sent to fight for our freedom.
Perhaps you work with your mouth, knowing your fists are not up for a fight. Maybe you are really good with your words.
Yea, what we need is talking. Words, not action will save the day. Especially if our enemies really don't want a fight with us.
Last time I checked it was lightning that did the work, not thunder.
The moral retardation exhibited at our elite universities is stunning. Even the reasons given for allowing these maggots a forum are not credible, since the highly selective observance of them seems to favor those forces and personalities that are distinctly in enmity with our society and civilization. Walid Shoebat was rejected out of hand, as have other individuals whose views on Islam and world affairs do not provide enough support for this Unholy Alliance of the Left and Islamic Jihad.
I am frustrated in my powerlessness to do anything about this. The only thing I can do is post opinion in the weblog world and take it upon myself to completely ignore the event and everything these troglodytes have to say.
Here's Cedarford's problem: he admires Hitler's Jew-hatred even though it was insane at all levels.
From a strictly nationalist perspective, the Final Solution was a waste. A waste of resources, men, oil, money, to kill people who were not the enemies of Germans or Germany and who if treated differently could have been valuable assets for Germany.
But Hitler even when it worked directly against his interests, would rather kill Jews than win the War. No wonder Cedarford defends him.
And no wonder the Left then as now defends Jew-killers. Jews really are the canary in the coal mine. Heck, DKos has a diary by a Lesbian Jewish woman who says she "has a crush on Amhamdinejad even though he'd kill me."
Hatred of normal life and normal people so strong that even the enemy of all is admired.
*
"Asked whether he was denying that Iran supplied weapons to militants in Iraq, he avoided a clear answer. "It's very clear the situation. The insecurity in Iraq is detrimental to our interests," he said."
Not half as detrimental as the gps-guided cruise missile that's gonna come flyin' in your bedroom window one night, ya freakin' squirrel.
*
THIS IS THE WRONG THREAD, BUT I SIMPLY HAVE TO ASK YOU THIS WRETCHARD...
100,000 Filipinos died in the Battle for Manila alone.
I get into discussions with Arabs about Iraqi casualty figure all the time.
I want to know: Did Filipinos consider it worth it?
What do you think?
When I was in the military I came to the conclusion that I had no desire to know the enemy. I could care less if he had a family or was nice to his dog or gave to charity. My only concern was what would he do when we met. I determined that if I were sensitive enough to my surroundings he would be dead because that is what he wanted for me and I would be no fool. The progs should consider that, taqyyia is his weapon today but not tomorrow.
Jeff,
I never heard anyone in my family say "I wish MacArthur hadn't returned to the Philippines". And some of those family members had survived like rats in the charnel house of the Malate area, the scene of some of the worst fighting. There was a tacit attitude among many in the immediate postwar generation that the Japanese were the enemy and one did whatever was necessary to defeat them. I remember asking on old guerilla why he had never applied for back-pay for his service. He answered that you don't expect to be paid for serving your country.
I am sure not everyone thought that way, but then it is equally probable that some Russians rued the sacrifices they made to fight the Nazis. Not everyone in Stalingrad for example, saw it as "worth it". And for that matter, I am pretty sure many a Gold Star family asked themselves in private whether the loss could willingly be borne.
But people thought differently then, I think. My mother's family spoke with awe and pride, and not regret, of a cousin who was released from the concentration camp only to pick a fight with Japanese soldiers who he saw trying to rape a woman, an act for which was beheaded. There was sorrow in the memory; but there was implicit acceptance that there was nothing else that a man could do. Today the idea of what a man should do is probably an outmoded concept. But I should say that as a child I knew Jay Abad Santos, the grandson of the pre-war Chief Justice Jose Abad Santos. He was bursting with pride at being the grandson of such a man. Chief Justice Jose Abad Santos was given the choice by General Homma of a high position in the puppet government or death if he refused to renounce his allegiance to the United States. Abad Santos chose death. His last words to his son (Jay's father) were "Not everyone has a chance to die for his country." It's incomprehensible to moderns, I guess. But it was true at the time.
Cedarford.....
No, that is a fine little piece of self-serving propaganda that "Jews were among the greatest victims of the Communists" or "How could anyone possibly blame Jews for involvement in the Great Democide when Stalin wished to kill off all the Jews"...
Truth is Stalin had developed significant doubts about the patriotism and loyalty of Jews towards the Soviet Union, coupled with concern about Jewish dominance of critical state sectors. He had plans to move a major part of the Jewish population away from ethnic Russians and other minorities...setting up their own enclave, bigger than 2 Israels - as Russia had done in the past with Tatars, Inguish, Chechens, ethnic Germans, Moldavans..
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http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=139050
On 13 January 1953 the Soviet government declared in Pravda that nine of the Kremlin's most prestigious doctors had, several years earlier, murdered two of Stalin's closest aides.4 (An English translation of the article has recently been posted on the internet.5
Moreover, as Rapoport relates, these practitioners were accused of
taking part in a “vast plot conducted by Western imperialists and
Zionists to kill the top Soviet political and military leadership . . .
[Until Stalin's death] the Soviet media pounded away at the supposed
single ‘fifth column’ in the USSR, with constant references to Jews who
were being arrested, dismissed from their jobs, or executed.”6
The show trial was meant to initiate a carefully constructed plan in which
almost all of the Soviet Union's two million Jews, nearly all of whom
were survivors of the Holocaust, were to be transported to the Gulag—in
cattle cars. Between the January announcement and Stalin's death a
month and a half later it became clear that careful plans had been laid
for the transfer and “concentration” of Soviet Jews. Rapoport quotes a
Soviet Jewish engineer who reported seeing, in the early 1960s, a
“never used camp with row after row of barracks: ‘Its vastness took my
breath away.’ ”6 Other witnesses corroborated the existence of the deportation plans.
We're seeing the fruits of The Frankfurt School, and Clark Kerr.
"The guy deserves a Louisville Slugger imprint across the forehead. Nothing less."
Is that Ahmedinejad or C-fudd? I vote for both. On second thought, why bother? There's nothing behind the forehead in either case.
"Cedarford, I have to wonder, has your Jew-hatred skewed every reasoning process in your brain?"
If you're still wondering you're way behind the curve. Also gotta question the implicit assumptions about "reasoning process" and "brain".
As for C-fudd's gibberish about kindly old Adolf being unwillingly driven to the Holocaust by the Allies and Joooos, I think he gets his talking points from Pat Buchanan, the Harold Stassen of our time. Fudd and the notorious political loser keep peddling the idea that appeasing Hitler would have stopped the Commies, at the cost of only a few million Jooos. But it talkes about five seconds to realize that if we had stuck up for Eastern Europe against Hitler, they then would have formed a bulwark for us against the Soviets, not to mention they would have been spared the horrors they suffered for fity years under first Nazi and then Communist rule. That simply reveals that Fudd and his idol Pat really don't give a flying f*ck about Nazis or Communists, they just favor whatever policy creates the most dead Joooos.
Universities should never offer invitations for speeches. They should offer opportunities for debate. If every idea was measured against an appropriately opposite idea, real learning might be advanced. Students would not simply hear arguments but learn how to argue logically and look deeper into the ideas presented.
This should not be a novel concept- which in my mind is the entire problem in academia today.
My final thought on this "road show" of openness and collegiate debate.
At what point in time will those who send their children to such universities demand a more balanced education?
My answer is when the original family unit (Mother and Father) becomes stronger, less prone to divorce and re-engineering. At such a moment, family energies will direct their attention to the educational environment and demand a much broader perspective in teaching.
When will such occur?
After the family holocaust.
That is when the survivors will look around and begin asking these questions: "How did this happen?" "Where did this Evil come from and why did we let it enter our world?"
History comes back to bite us all in the ass once more!
Clark Kerr!
This distinction he makes between a soapbox and a debate implies that Mahmoud will debate.
If only he would spring Chris Hitchens or Mark Styne on our visiter, that would be worth watching.
Columbia was turned into a bastion of PC by Jewish faculty activists who believed that they could weaken the majority European-American culture by teaching things like Boasian anthropology, Freudian nonsense, and white male guilt. Well, it worked and now it turns out that the main beneficiaries of such anti-white multicultural brainwashing don't see Jews as being any different from other whites. Oops! The once proud WASP nation was weakened and is now in tatters yet the same Jews who are now upset about Holocaust revisionists speaking at Columbia have nothing to say about how we got to where we are. For Jews and philo-semitic Christians to rant and rave now about PC 'gone mad' and to decry the weakness of America is just a tad ironic. You created this situation by undermining the old confident American culture dominated by WASPs. Those now displaced WASPs can be forgiven for seeing some poetic justice in recent events.
You created this situation by undermining the old confident American culture dominated by WASPs. Those now displaced WASPs can be forgiven for seeing some poetic justice in recent events.
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the jester bobby zimmerman finally got it.
you have to strengthen the things that remain.
Another angle:
Columbia, feh. Family have attended Harvard, other Ivy League, William & Mary (20s), southern private, Stanford, and state uni’s. You can pay a lot or not. At nearly all colleges these days, one needs to be educated and informed as to faculty who are leftish to hard leftist and assess the cost-benefit ratio of taking classes from them. Our kids face four to eight years of undergrad/ grad “studies,” which equates to a great deal of parents’ money and time out of young adults lives.
Our economy is so fluid and open to those who have ideas and who can follow through, and there are tutors and self-study courses on anything from car mechanics to Japanese to post quantum mechanics, that it’s almost silly and certainly politically irresponsible to mortgage oneself or child to PC servitude on campuses these days. As parents, we need to catch up with the market-- universities are outpricing, out-outre’ing and out-PC’ing themselves in an age where alternatives are available and acceptable.
Mahmoud can grace the campus of Columbia, but I don’t vote with my child to endorse such, even as convenient as Columbia is to NY dwelling kids.
Report:
"Signs in the crowd displayed a range of messages, including one that read 'We refuse to choose between Islamic fundamentalism and American imperialism.'
"Bollinger said Monday that allowing Ahmadinejad to appear was a question of free speech and academic freedom.
"It's extremely important to know who the leaders are of countries that are your adversaries. To watch them to see how they think, to see how they reason or do not reason. To see whether they're fanatical, or to see whether they are sly,' he told ABC's 'Good Morning America."
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Yes. Today's privileged students don't have access to the internet, to international TV news 24/7, or to newsprint. They must invite evil to visit, talk and chat before deciding how they "feel."
Students are reported to have laughed along with him, to have cheered, applauded and given him an ovation at the end.
If I was a parent paying to send my kid to that tres' expensive school, I'd be rethinking both my parenting skills for having raised a dummy and the amount of money I'm spending to send my student into that particular den to receive an education in how to applaud a murdering, kidnapping madman.
Now Now C4, take your pills...
one must not work yourself up to much, we ll KNOW the JOOS are behind everything from your Lord's murder to the ZOG, yes yes C4, calm down, yes Joos are behind everything bad - porn, the jews, control of the media, the jews, control of the USA, the jews... control of the FED, the jews, control of the diamond cartels, the jews, control of the software & computer & real estate industries, the jews, medicine, rap, and hollywood? the jews..
go ahead, take that little white pill and calm down...
yes c4 (as he drifts into a drug induced coma) the jooos..... they are the problem.... the jooos...
go to sleep c4....
that's a good boy....
maybe that will send him back to his coma from whence he came...
Let everyone peruse this:
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/holocaust/
Let everyone search this, the great library, to read what Ahmadi-nejad and his puppet masters have said and when they have said it.
I believe that Ahmadi-nejad is here for one purpose...to plunge a thermometer into the great Satan. How close are we to being done.
Clark Kerr
(May 17, 1911 – December 1, 2003) was the first Chancellor of the University of California, Berkeley (1952–1958) and the 12th President of the University of California (1958–1967).
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The University was founded in 1868 in a merger of the private College of California and the public Agricultural, Mining, and Mechanical Arts College. By the 1930s, Berkeley had established itself as a premier research university, and today counts sixty-one Nobel Laureates among its faculty, researchers and alumni. Berkeley physicists led and hand-picked the team of scientists who worked on the Manhattan Project, which developed the atomic bomb during World War II and the hydrogen bomb soon afterwards.
---
Question:
How did UC function and prosper without a Chancellor or a President?
These are positions paying many hundreds of thousands of dollars.
At Columbia, mention of no gays elicits
BOOS.
A description of women's equality in Iran results in
silence.
The Brave Palestinian Warriors:
Loud Applause.
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jane,
Our son, now 23, didn't attend a single class in public or private school, or in college.
He is presently employed by the University of Hawaii doing contract work for the Air Force.
Overseeing many with college Degrees, and some AF Academy Grads!
Note to "What is Occupation"
And don't forget who really killed OJ's wife, Nicole... the jooos...
:^)
Dying computer professor inspires with 'last lecture'
Pausch, a 46-year-old father of three, has pancreatic cancer and, most likely, just a few months left.
In the last week, he has gained national attention for an inspiring and sometimes upbeat talk, titled "How to Live Your Childhood Dreams," that included one-handed push-ups, bright smiles and reminiscences of some of his own dreams met (getting a Ph.D, walking in zero gravity, writing an encyclopedia entry, designing Disney rides). "Brick walls are there for a reason," he told his audience. "They let us prove how badly we want things."
Doug, I hear you, and good for you, your wife and son. Until the middle classes realize they're being had by colleges and that their smart young'uns can get along pretty damn great w/o Ivy League, family $, and land props-prop-ups, they're doomed to reap what they resent but feed.
Marketplace and innovation, people. If one can't succeed w/o hide-bound clubbiness and associations in 21 C America, then there's not much hope.
(Doug, and I say that as someone with family land and money-- Who cares, I don't. Historical and architectural legacy are important, but the snottiness that goes with family who choose to hold onto rather than sell land over the years is mostly specious and circumstantial, not meritorious.
The beauty of America lies largely with how fluid the lines of our socio-economic demarcation are. With how anybody who has made the $ can buy and sell, and not be defined by ages old material, socially-dictated tradition.
Columbia U forgot the American values tradition of not paying homage to tyrant-sworn enemies of ours. Ultimately, personal, academic and national ethics should count more than vulgar intellectualism, ostentation or affectation by an increasingly outdated institution.
The best to your son!)
Hmm, America hated Hitler in 1938?
He would have been hanged?
He would have been shunned?
Then why was he TIme magazines "Man of the Year" for 1938?
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