The rules of war
The Tamil Tigers attacked a Sri Lankan naval transport with seven hundred men on it. The transport was saved by its escorts but not before one of the accompanying warships was itself destroyed. At least seventy persons have died on both sides of the naval battle. The Times of London reports:
The Navy said that 17 crewmen were killed when Tiger suicide bombers rammed into a fast-attack boat off the northern tip of Sri Lanka. It also said that it had sunk 5 rebel vessels, killing about 50 Tamil Tigers. The transporter, which was carrying 710 troops, sought refuge in Indian waters.
“They went for the Pearl Cruise [the transporter] with unarmed soldiers on board and [a truce monitor] flag on the top. It’s a big violation,” said Major General Ulf Henricsson, the head of the Nordic Sri Lanka Monitoring Mission. “It’s almost the same as terminating the ceasefire by will,” he added, saying that there had been shelling in Trincomalee and Sampur in separate attacks in the east of Sri Lanka
The Washington Post has more details.
"About 15 LTTE boats including suicide boats attacked one of our vessels transporting 710 soldiers," Dassanayake said. "Navy fast-attack boats escorting the vessel engaged the Tiger boats and one of them was destroyed by a suicide boat," he said, adding there were about 20 sailors on board the stricken vessel. ... Helen Olafsdottir, spokeswoman for the European-led Sri Lanka Monitoring Mission, said a truce monitor was in the troop carrier with the soldiers. "This is very serious," she told BBC television. "It is getting worse."
Commentary
So much for the Geneva Convention. Diplomats are supposed to be "protected persons" under international law but a whole buildingful of them were blown up at the Canal Hotel in Baghdad on August 19, 2003 by terrorist attackers. According to Wikpedia:
The explosion occurred while Benon Sevan, director of the "Oil for food program," was holding a press conference. Sevan was among the wounded. The explosion damaged a spinal cord treatment center at the hospital nearby and the shockwave was felt a mile away. ... There is speculation that Sérgio Vieira de Mello, the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, may have been specifically targeted in the blast due to the proximity of the explosion to his office. The UN building may have been chosen due to its limited security.
Recently members of the Christian Peacemaker Teams were kidnapped by thugs or terrorists in Iraq, and one of them was killed. The rest were resentfully rescued by Coalition forces. Now fighting between warlords and Islamists has broken out in Somalia. According to Forbes:
A radical Islamic force battled for a strategic road Thursday in a continuing struggle with secular warlords for control of the northern half of Somalia's capital, which has left at least 130 people dead. ... Militia loyal to the Islamic Court Union, a grouping of radical Islamic leaders banded together in a self-appointed court system, have been fighting since Sunday to capture a strategic road through northern Mogadishu from the secular Alliance for the Restoration of Peace and Counterterrorism. While the alliance has held the road through Sii-Sii, the court union has controlled the neighborhoods on either side.
The alliance accuses the union of having ties to al-Qaida, while the Islamists say the warlords are puppets of the United States. The courts are popular in Mogadishu because in recent years they have provided the only form of governance in the city. ...
Somalia has had no effective central government since then, although a U.N.-backed transitional government has been set up in Baidoa, 150 miles west of Mogadishu. Some of the warlords behind the secular alliance are members of the transitional parliament, though they are fighting the Islamists on their own.
It's doubtful whether either the warlords or the Islamists have much regard for the Laws of War and one wonders what exactly the "U.N.-backed transitional government" actually does. British Defense Secretary John Reid created a stir by suggesting that the Geneva Convention be updated to reflect the realities of terrorism. "The legal constraints upon us have to be set against an enemy that adheres to no constraints whatsoever." It is probably fortunate that a European has posed this question because this ball really belongs in the court of the transnationalists. Any attempts to obtain realistic rules of engagement against terrorists by a US administration will be branded as fascistic. So lets pose the question: how should one deal with combatants who have no regard for ceasefires, women, children, flags of truce, churches, mosques or the Rules of War?
posted by wretchardthecat at 5/11/2006 06:02:00 PM
164 Comments:
kill 'em, kill 'em all.
I think that the experience of US troops over the past 3 years and put together and reviewed with an open mind might produce good rules of engagement. It would be a mix of moderate duress combined with kindness (kindness is often a good method when used appropriately). It would be something that is not the Geneva Convention but nevertheless a code people could live with and justify. That plus many of the purpose built small-warhead weapons systems, including non-lethal lasers and sonics would be quite useful.
Politics and pig-headed political correctness has created a split-level international morality. The imposition of fantasy standards on those fighting terrorists has created an incentive to cheat. It will lead to a hypocritical system with one set of avowed standards and an underground system of workarounds. In fact, some human rights advocates have argued for absolute nondeviation from the current Geneva while hoping aloud for men who would risk their careers and disobey them when necessary. This was a way of ostensibly preserving "principle" while allowing flexibility. But it was really another way of saying "bring me the head of Garcia but don't say how you got it".
If the UN, NGOs and Europeans get shot to pieces enough and face barbarism in enough places they themselves might cobble together a halfway realistic method of dealing with terrorist combatants.
This type of warfare using suicide targeted explosives and hiding among civilians between attacks, strips these "fighters" of all legal rights and protections. They have no rights under the Geneva convention, or any national or international law. They place themselves totally outside such protections.
Those who cry tears over treatment of jihadis and similar terrorists during confinement should spend several weeks talking to families of the victims of these senseless bombings.
And where is the President of Somalia while this is going on? Why, he's in Uganda attending a swearing in ceremony, of course:
11 presidents and 70 representatives of countries and international organisations will attend President Yoweri Museveni’s swearing-in ceremony.
Four of the 11 presidents who confirmed attendance, Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe, Abdullahi Yusuf of Somalia and Ismail Omar Guelleh of Djibouti arrived Thursday evening.
Museveni Swearing-in
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Mr Host,
Captured terrorists are released.
Dr Z, from Eygpt
Mini Z from Jordan
600 Algerian Jihadi just the other week
Tens of thousands in Iraq
In the name of peace, reunification and
the brotherhood of man.
Are ransoms paid for the release of the terrorists?
I'd bet not.
The is no known cure for the contagion but the death of those infected.
A Mohammedan can always renounce the ways of Jihad and find safty in Islam, the Religion of Peace.
It seems none do.
Just a suggestion
put a bullet in their heads, wrap them in pig skins, and throw them into the ocean
put a bullet in their heads, wrap them in pig skins, and throw them into the ocean
porker,
why pollute the ocean
just burn the bums
The Sri Lankans have the same problem as Israel: there is no peace with Islam.
Expect the usual suspects to appear on screen urging Sri Lanka not to behave precipitously or disproportionately, lest the "cycle of violence" spin out of control.
"Kill them All"
...as they say, 'God will know his own'.
The pirate idea is a good one.
Looking at this map one could say Sri Lanka has something in common with Israel, Darfur, The Baltic states, Panski Gorge, the Kashmir region, Liberia, the Ivory Coast, the Philippines, East Timor. Etc, Etc…
porker,
why pollute the ocean
just burn the bums
I go back to my original thesis...
you hurt the enemy where it hurts them, not where you "wish" it would hurt them..
so if they fear hell, wrap them in pig skin when dead
so if they who lead the islamic word refuse to step up to stopping this, destroy the leaders, bomb the mosques and if needed, BOMB the Black ROCK..
If you DESTROY one of the 5 pillars of Islam, the islamic peoples will KNOW g-d is NOT on their side
time to send a message....
Wretchard,
You haven't yet addressed Iran's recent, formal Declaration of War against the US...
I have details at Brain Surgery,
and LGF has details...
***
"Those who cry tears over treatment of jihadis and similar terrorists during confinement should spend several weeks talking to families of the victims of these senseless bombings."
Beg to differ: They should have to walk among the torn, the shredded, the screaming, wailing wounded, the shocked and bleeding... trying to scrape pieces of human off their oh-so-clean shoes and hands, as the experience the RESULTS of those senseless bombings!
dan,
Your 7:57 PM
You have hit the nail squarely on the head.
I frequently reference Israel because it is just so darned handy, being the perfect microcosm.
What happens in Israel doesn't stay in Israel, as we discover daily.
As observed they are all aleady outside the conventions, and may be dealt with summarily.
The persons the US call "illegal combatants" (in fact persons without protected status under the conventions) under international law can all be executed / abused / imprisoned forever in any way the USA itself deems legal.
In any war prior to WWII they would have been already dealt with summarily as pirates, marauders etc - shot.
How about following the lead of US Army Colonel Rodgers who when fighting Muslim rebels in the Philippines, buried killed Muslim fanatics together with pig carcasses, or beheaded and sewn into pig skins? The corpses of slain Islamoid terrorists could be buried with, or better yet fed to the pigs.
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Liberatin Tigers of Tamil Eelam:
LTTE Political Head Mr.Tamilselvan in a strongly worded letter to Sri Lankan Monitoring Mission said today 11th May 2006, that SLMM is demonstrating partiality in protecting Sri Lankan Navy while putting its naval monitors at risk, but at the same time has failed to protect Sea Tigers.
Full text of the letter:
It is a simple truth that any military Cease Fire Agreement is based on a balance of power and in order to maintain the CFA that military balance of power must remain. Sea Tigers existed prior to CFA and it contributed to the balance of power that resulted in the CFA...
The three letters sent to SLMM requesting it to refrain from boarding SLN vessels:
Letter one sent on 18th April:
Re: SLMM Naval Monitors on board Sri Lankan Naval Vessels In recent times Sri Lankan Naval vessels boats have carried out several attacks on areas in our control along the Northeast coast. There were two such very serious attacks along the Trincomalee coastal areas
...
Letter Two sent on 10 May
Re: SLMM Naval Monitors in Sri Lankan Naval Vessels We refer to your letter dated 18 April 2006, in response to our earlier letter where we requested SLMM monitors to refrain from boarding Sri Lankan Naval vessels for the sake of the safety and security of the SLMM monitors. We thank you for this reply dated 18 April...
Letter three sent on 11 May 2006
Subject: SLMM Monitors on board Sri Lankan Naval Vessels We have on several occasions verbally informed you to refrain from boarding Sri Lankan Naval vessels. We have also given this request in writing to you twice so far...
LTTE Political Head
Sad as it is, we won't really win this war until we are fully prepared to terrorize the terrorists.
Fatherly lessons from President Ahmadinejad:
Liberals are showing their true colors again for all to see. No amount of provocation is ever enough for them.
We just need a little more sensitivity training. We just need to open our eyes, hearts and minds to the "very good ideas" of this "thoughtful" Iranian "teacher."
Fatherly Lessons
Wretchard asked: "how should one deal with combatants who have no regard for ceasefires, women, children, flags of truce, churches, mosques or the Rules of War?"
Chthus: "No police, no summons, no courts of law..."
Dan: "summarily execute them..."
DRat: " kill 'em all"
PRFA: "put a bullet in their heads..."
Dan: Nguyen_Van_Lem them
bobalharb: "Play by their rules, only play harder."
faeless: "For every suicide bomber, kill their entire village."
fellow peacekeeper: "How about following the lead of US Army Colonel Rodgers..."
What a tough crowd. I have always wanted to do stand-up comedy but the fear of having even one of you guys in the audience is enough to make me give up on the idea... completely. But seriously...
I understand the desire to want to punish one's enemies, to make them pay. Without it, civilization as we now know it might not have lasted this long. After all, you can only turn the other cheek so many times before you find you are holding your head underneath your arm like a football.
That said, it seems to me that there is one very important barrier to many of the suggestions that were offered. It's not the outcry of pacifists or the inevitable reporting in a media not at all sympathetic to the cause. It's not the fear of our soldiers being brought up on war crimes charges. It's not even the darkening effecting such behavior might have on the light of our own soldier's souls. Rather, it's the loss of information.
It seems to me that killing unlawful combatants on the spot deprives coalition forces of the ability to ascertain what said combatants know about the locations, plans, capabilities, etc. of their fellow travelers.
My understanding is that this kind of information has proved very useful in the past and in the present, i.e. that lots of bad guys get caught this way.
There is a secondary problem with this point, however. Obtaining information usually requires interrogation, sometimes lasting weeks, months, or years. And we all know what kind of trouble that has produced.
Still, I see a cost benefit analysis here and can anticipate conditions where summary execution might be preferred to lengthy interrogation and holding in secret and not so secret prisons.
Mr. Hunter, as much as I agree about the intelligence, the jihadi's should be taken out and executed as soon as they are of no more use. There are two reasons for this,
1) There would be no attempts to release them by the courts or have them released by other means,
2) Their desire is to claim their reward for devoted service to Allah and we would be cretins to deny them this journey.
Their only value now is as a conduit of information, any other value they may have had as human beings they have already shed.
What is hard to face is that we are so effective under the GC that cheating is the only way the bad guys can stay on the map.
The minute they play 'fair' it's over.
....
The Thirty Years War was the last European conflict without ANY restraints.
Notably it revolved around religion until it shifted into power balance: France crossed sectarian lines.
....
The desire for an enemy's blood is always balanced against one's own bread.
What is so wrong with our tactics/ strategy is that we are not hitting the unlawful combatants in the wallet.
Instead, they become enthused with brigandage. One wonders where warfare ends and dis-organized crime begins for the islamist.
Note their propensity to feed on narcotics, rackets, kidnapping and the rest.
Ultimately, only astonishing levels of collateral damage will deter such players. It must be their families and tribes.
This is where DNA and databases kick in. At the genomic level, anonymity must be denied.
I would strongly recommend back tracing belt bombers via their DNA and revenging against the family entire.
The gloves are off. Nothing else is working.
It's a lot less sloppy than fire bombing Tokyo, Dresden, Hamburg....
Just in case some haven't seen it:
The Letter
Gentleman, this is not personal, this is business. The visceral reaction of most of you is heartening and pleasing, as it indicates I am with a band of brothers. But you will not teach the Islamists a lesson. This harlot is beyond redemption and she knows the tricks of her trade. Radical Islam is the HIV of human religion. It is incurable, contagious, dissipating and leads to dementia and death. There is no known cure and it is mutating daily. We are being tested by a rapidly spreading depravity, winning engagements but losing the war. We started losing at the beginning by lying to ourselves over what the war was about. War on Terror, what a lovely euphemism, the "have a nice day" of PC. The jihadists know what this is about. They are going to destroy the infidel. They have sent us an invitation and it is time to RSVP.
Now we have been cautioned about the law. There is however THE LAW. The most sacred human law is above any court, convention or treaty. It is the Law of Survival. It is the ultimate form of justice and it is time to engage. We know who the enemy is. They told us. We know where they meet. We know a lot about them. It is time to go silent and go dark. No speeches, no threats, no lawyers, no mercy. Isolate and eliminate the radical clerics, financial supporters, politicians, tacticians, academics, theorists, and all supporters of radical Islam. We will find Islamic friends and allies to do most of the work. There is no other way to win this war.
Definition: “Dar al-harb” - areas where Muslims are in the minority. House of War
Definition: “Dar al-Islam” — the house of submission or the house of God; the territories where Shari’ah rules Muslim communities.
Definition: “Dar al-Kufr” — abode of disbelief , prompting Da’wah (calling to Islam)
It would be fascinating to know from the various posters if any can identify a moment when they “turned” — i.e., saw clearly for the first time that the Islamic terrorists are beyond any human covenant and must be dealt with not with hatred, but with the passionless dispatch needed for dealing with a rabies-infected animal approaching your children.
On several occasions I’ve posted some blather that most of us in the Western industrialized democracies simply have no grasp of the way most of the rest of the world lives — gramma slowly dying of cancer in the living room while mom cooks dinner over a wood fire, the kids assemble tennis shoe uppers for the local Nike subcontractor, and the goats nibble at straws poking out of the mud and dung walls.
On further reflection, I see I’ve been an idiot. If that cultural gulf were actually the basis of *our* conflicts with terrorists, then we should expect to be in conflict with terrorists being spawned by every impoverished third-world culture on the globe. That is precisely the racist stereotyping that many people in America use to discount the vast majority of decent, law-abiding residents of American inner-city ghettos. And of course, no such thing is happening.
It seems redundant to point out that the Prophet Mohammed during his lifetime commanded numerous military assaults on those who opposed his vision, routinely ordering summary executions of captives. In the first three decades after his death, the leadership of the new religion changed hands three times, with each new leader ascending by assassinating his predecessor. By 732— a scant century after the death of Muhammed — Islam had already been spread by military onslaught from the Arabian Peninsula north into Turkey and Syria, and west across North Africa. That year an Arab Islamic army of invasion moving into France from the Iberian Peninsula was turned back by Charles Martel and his Frankish armies at the Battle of Tours (Poitiers). What we are experiencing in this time is simply the continuation of Islamic expansion of Dar al Islam by the subjugation of Dar al Harb, which has been in progress for some fourteen centuries.
It is finally undeniable that the totalitarian barbarity of Islamic Jihadism is a defining characteristic of Islam, cropping up wherever a significant Islamic population has arisen within a non-Islamic culture. The most casual scan of weekly news from around the globe shows that Islamic terrorists are busy murdering, shooting, stabbing, raping, hacking, exploding, maiming, torturing, beheading, and generally abusing Hindus in New Delhi, Mumbai, Varanasi, Srinagar and Pakistan, Animists and Christians in Darfur, Coptics in Egypt, Zoroastrians and followers of Baha’u’llah in Persia, Jews, Catholics, Episcopalians, Scientologists, New Age adherents of Edgar Cayce, Baptists, agnostics, atheists, journalists, grocers, and Liberal Democrats everywhere else.
But we must remember they are “equal-opportunity” terrorists, murdering fellow Muslims in even greater numbers, to intimidate them into submission.
Almost any culture can steer some of its own to extremist attitudes and behavior — America has had its share of Unabombers and Timothy McVeigh’s. But Islamic terrorism, Jihad, the barbarity that defines Shariah — these have returned to the fore as the Islamic Arab cultures wallow in the greatest abundance, wealth and power they have ever known.
Meanwhile, do they use this wealth to create, to educate themselves, to become self-sufficient? While some of the oil wealth has been applied to construction projects, the arab states have mostly become massive welfare societies, hiring (and despising) alien nationals to do their menial jobs, electing Koranic studies rather than engineering degrees. Farouk El-Baz, member of the US National Academy of Engineering, points out that “during the past two decades, South Korea registered in the US over 44 times the number of patents from all Arab countries combined...” and “ ... the number of books translated in all 22 Arab countries is equal to one-fifth of those translated into Greek.” (http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2004/710/feature.htm)
This is monstrously perverse.
Definition: “Dar al-harb” - areas where Muslims are in the minority. House of War
Definition: “Dar al-Islam” — the house of submission or the house of God; the territories where Shari’ah rules Muslim communities.
Definition: “Dar al-Kufr” — abode of disbelief , prompting Da’wah (calling to Islam)
It would be fascinating to know from the various posters if any can identify a moment when they “turned” — i.e., saw clearly for the first time that the Islamic terrorists are beyond any human covenant and must be dealt with not with hatred, but with the passionless dispatch needed for dealing with a rabies-infected animal approaching your children.
On several occasions I’ve posted some blather that most of us in the Western industrialized democracies simply have no grasp of the way most of the rest of the world lives — gramma slowly dying of cancer in the living room while mom cooks dinner over a wood fire, the kids assemble tennis shoe uppers for the local Nike subcontractor, and the goats nibble at straws poking out of the mud and dung walls.
On further reflection, I see I’ve been an idiot. If that cultural gulf were actually the basis of *our* conflicts with terrorists, then we should expect to be in conflict with terrorists being spawned by every impoverished third-world culture on the globe. That is precisely the racist stereotyping that many people in America use to discount the vast majority of decent, law-abiding residents of American inner-city ghettos. And of course, no such thing is happening.
It seems redundant to point out that the Prophet Mohammed during his lifetime commanded numerous military assaults on those who opposed his vision, routinely ordering summary executions of captives. In the first three decades after his death, the leadership of the new religion changed hands three times, with each new leader ascending by assassinating his predecessor. By 732— a scant century after the death of Muhammed — Islam had already been spread by military onslaught from the Arabian Peninsula north into Turkey and Syria, and west across North Africa. That year an Arab Islamic army of invasion moving into France from the Iberian Peninsula was turned back by Charles Martel and his Frankish armies at the Battle of Tours (Poitiers). What we are experiencing in this time is simply the continuation of Islamic expansion of Dar al Islam by the subjugation of Dar al Harb, which has been in progress for some fourteen centuries.
It is finally undeniable that the totalitarian barbarity of Islamic Jihadism is a defining characteristic of Islam, cropping up wherever a significant Islamic population has arisen within a non-Islamic culture. The most casual scan of weekly news from around the globe shows that Islamic terrorists are busy murdering, shooting, stabbing, raping, hacking, exploding, maiming, torturing, beheading, and generally abusing Hindus in New Delhi, Mumbai, Varanasi, Srinagar and Pakistan, Animists and Christians in Darfur, Coptics in Egypt, Zoroastrians and followers of Baha’u’llah in Persia, Jews, Catholics, Episcopalians, Scientologists, New Age adherents of Edgar Cayce, Baptists, agnostics, atheists, journalists, grocers, and Liberal Democrats everywhere else.
But we must remember they are “equal-opportunity” terrorists, murdering fellow Muslims in even greater numbers, to intimidate them into submission.
Almost any culture can steer some of its own to extremist attitudes and behavior — America has had its share of Unabombers and Timothy McVeigh’s. But Islamic terrorism, Jihad, the barbarity that defines Shariah — these have returned to the fore as the Islamic Arab cultures wallow in the greatest abundance, wealth and power they have ever known.
Meanwhile, do they use this wealth to create, to educate themselves, to become self-sufficient? While some of the oil wealth has been applied to construction projects, the arab states have mostly become massive welfare societies, hiring (and despising) alien nationals to do their menial jobs, electing Koranic studies rather than engineering degrees. Farouk El-Baz, member of the US National Academy of Engineering, points out that “during the past two decades, South Korea registered in the US over 44 times the number of patents from all Arab countries combined...” and “ ... the number of books translated in all 22 Arab countries is equal to one-fifth of those translated into Greek.” (http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2004/710/feature.htm)
This is monstrously perverse.
At the start of any war the aggressor has the edge as they do not observe any rules. At the end of WW2 Churchill just wanted to shoot the Nazis. Earlier Tojo killed at least one diplomat. So the present situation is not new.
dr. zaius,
Your 2:12 AM - Ahmed Chalabi
When it comes to Mr. Chalabi, all you have proven is your personal animus.
Granted, disparagement of the enemy holds a time-honored place within the "rules of war". If that is your purpose, say so and throw us some red meat.
Catch the last paragraph, especially.
Indonesia has a population about the size of the USA, and is a third the size.
Also making the rounds is Hugo Chavez, who had a (reportedly) "friendly" meeting with the Pope in the last day or two.
This thing is growing. If the Little Persian has a hundred million twenty-something Indonesians behind him--well, he will have to change his Caliphate ideas, or be disposed of. Or, measure your kids for turbans.
trish,
Your 5:01 AM - "Let those who can, do."
As an advocate of a muscular human intelligence arm, you may support my recommendation of establishing in Iraq a vigorous cultural emersion program for the troops. With even a rudimentary grasp of a foreign language, all sorts of useful information can be garnered from nothing more than a leisurely stroll down the street on market day. Given our crying need for competent linguists, I hope DoD will not ignore this golden opportunity.
Want MultiCulti? Fine, here's you a shiny new Persian-model Hitler--complete with orgiastic crowds!
Little known fact, Vlad the Impaler had the full backing of the Church, carried the papal title "Defender of the Faith". Nothing complicated about it, he was simply keeping the Ottomans held up--out of Europe/Christendom--at the Transylvanian approaches.
buddy larsen,
Now, buddy, this is what I consider the fine Art of War: “TOP-level Australian officials have told their Indian counterparts Canberra will consider selling uranium to New Delhi even if India refuses to sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.” That should guarantee some restless nights in the Imperial Palace.
And, dear to my heart, “THE nation's defence chief has endorsed plans to recruit older Australians into the military.” Yes, siree, Bobby, as I once advised a young Turk, “I can do almost anything I could do in my youth; I just have to do it slower. Occasionally this is considered a blessing.” Bless your heart June Pointer.
Allen, yes, the naturalness of the India/Australia/Japan/USA alliance is a great source of comfort.
CNBC is breaking "As many as 200 feared dead in Nigerian oil pipeline explosion".
MIke H et al,
The problem with executing someone as soon as they are of no more use, or executing them on the spot, will encourage them to become suicide bombers. While I don't have a problem with it ethically, I wonder if in the long run it would hurt us.
In the past, destroying a village that a terrorist comes from doesn't tend to deter them. Look at the French Underground (no, I am not calling them terrorists!) vs the Nazis during WWII as an example.
trish,
Your 6:05 AM
I take your point and agree. My point was not well made and fell short of its goal.
“Know your enemy” was wisely recommended by Sun Tzu. Iraq offers a perfectly unique learning laboratory. No matter how limited, thousands of American troops make daily contact with Iraqis. Were these troops given, let’s say, two hours per duty day of cultural immersion, then, even limited contact might prove rewarding to human intelligence. From formal training to contact with native speakers, some troops would inevitably be observed to demonstrate facility. These troops would be channeled into advanced programs.
I am aware of the momentary impossibility of American troops being able to wander at will, as many will do tomorrow morning at the Kaiserplatz farmers market in Kaiserslaurten. I was attempting to make a point illustratively. At some future date, however, some of our newly minted linguists may have the chance to travel around Kuwait or Dubai, for example. Who knows what they will see and hear using their widened cultural perspectives?
In my haste at “emersion” this morning, my own linguistic “immersion” failed me. Please pardon
ditto, trish,
we've been saying it for years now.
President will have be giving a big speach on Monday, about US Border Security.
The House just authorized using the Army to secure the Borders.
Well, we're ahead of the curve, at Belmont, again.
Now back to our regularly scheduled topic
Perhaps such tactics are reflective not merely of battlefield realities - i.e., we can clean their clock in a fight that is even 10% traditional by "law" - but a basic attitude toward human relations.
The Ayatollah Khomeni openly declared war on the U.S. in October 1987, but apparently was not surprised when Iran was not turned into radioactive slag 30 minutes later.
The current "President" of Iran calls for the destruction of Isreal and the general extermination of democratic society, worldwide, but is downright offended if we even suggest we might defend ourselves and our allies.
Osama Bin Laden calls for the triumph of Islamic radicalism but does not seem to think that this should result in the outlawing of the entire religion and the production-line style elimination of its worshippers.
These people think about "war" in a basically different way, as a method of continuous existance rather than something to be gotten over with ASAP. So, given that, they have different rules than we do.
buddy,
A strike in Nigeria today, Ecuador last month, both against Oil infrastructure.
Niether in the ME Region.
Connect the dots, it's not a Regional War. When the escalation begins, be prepared.
The Boy Scouts are, but then again, they have adult leadership.
I'm wondering why Nigeria is getting so little MSM coverage--an american oilfield hand was murdered a couple days ago, simultaneous with 3 Italians kidnap/released. Nigeria is a huge exporter, and it's the light sweet, too. Shell for one and several others have pulled people out, and the artificial production degrade is up to around 20% reportedly. This extra crude spot-price buck or three or ten or twenty--prices being set at the margin, by auction--is paying a breathtaking cash premium, daily--that's daily--to bad guys. Wot a racket--especially the part hiding inside a major world religion.
I hope no one will be offended; I feel your pain and find myself daily among a righteously incensed mob, screaming, “Burn the witches!” Unfortunately, we cannot win the GWOT by holding to the notion that it will ever be possible to burn ALL the witches. But, the goals of the GWOT can be rapidly advanced if we can burn SOME of the witches.
What witches must we burn in the interest of the GWOT? Well, why not start with the leadership of every Islamic organization that has ever expressed the desire to “burn the Great and Little Satans.” Syria is chock-full of such guys (and gals, for that matter – don’t want to insensitively leave qualified candidates out of the running). So are Hamburg, London, and Los Angeles. Oh, and lest I forget some prime specimens daily in the news, how about the leadership of Hamas and Hezbollah?
Obviously, the sensitivities of some of allies prevent the blatant melting of witches on the streets of Hamburg and London. Since some legal eagles won’t admit to the simple expedient of eavesdropping in the US, active, extra-judicial pest control would be out of the question. In such instances, we must rely on the deep and dark cover posited by some correspondents and hope that “Buffy” doesn’t get caught without the administration having deniability.
In most parts of the world, the UN has unwittingly helped us out: there is no law, save expediency. Consequently, “some” witches can be dealt with with the same cavalier attitude of the French towards Greenpeace or the Ivory Coast. As usual, there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth, but this too will pass.
For the sake of efficiency, I would advise that most witches go to the gibbet in the dead of night. However, one of the flaws of the administration in the GWOT to date has been its failure to throw some juicy morsels of red meat to the public. Therefore, some warlocks should be vaporized in broad daylight in the most gauche, gaudy manner possible, with the message going out to the patient US public, “Yeah, we fried that SOB just for you. Stay tuned for next week’s exciting auto-da-fé starring Abdul of Indonesia. Until then, have a great week and G-d bless the United States of America.”
Offensive? You bet, but Sun Tzu never claimed war was beanbag or tea time at the club. “Get’er done!”
The battle against the Mohammedans is unlike any other.
We do not attack the Mohammedan logistic train, their bases, supply depots or manpower reserves.
Instead the Enemy only exists when he is actively engaged with US, unless an Arrest Warrant is available, naming the Individual.
That's why it's become a "long war", one in which Time is on the Enemy's side, according to Mr Bush's past presentations and speaches.
We have been fighting on the Enemy's terms.
We have not been serious about the Conflict, look to the empty civilian billets in Iraq for proof.
Wonder how Hugo and the Little Persian are getting around, on their "Death to America" world tour?
whose side "time" is on is the key question. Reports run the gamut a to z. Islam turning the jihadis? Yes, many experts and much anecdotal evidence suggests. If this is so, then the Long War is probably the strategy--as the Short War will surely be a global upheaval.
Nigeria, Ecuador, Bolivia, Indonesia
These places are not in the percieved "Story Line", buddy.
That is why they are "ignored".
Of no "real" consequence, you know.
Did you not read the 9-11 Commission report? What ever does not fit the preconcieved "Plan" discard as unneeded.
The Army in during Op Anaconda in Afghanistan, the FBI pre9-11, even the 9-11 Commission itself, with regards Able Danger.
The MSM all the time.
Stay on Message, do not let facts intercede
I believe Mr Bush, buddy, he's the guy with "all" the data.
He said time is on the Enemy's side. State of the Union, as I recall.
rwe hit the nail, the Mohammedans expect and enjoy a steady course of "Limited War".
We have been feeding them that diet for decades. At current levels, they can continue to consume as much as we serve them.
We need to force feed them enough to choke, or the Mohammedans will win, eventually. They are expanding, the West contracting.
Demographics pretty much guarentees that course will be stayed.
Time is on their side
Mr Bush is not a liar.
buddy larsen,
Your 7:32 AM - "Hugo" (and Yamamoto)
Some here at the Belmont Club are clearly on the upper decile of the Bell Curve. You, sir, are among that august group.
Like me, you may have noticed that the elite of the Islamic world have zero interest in self-immolation. Swiss bankers and Scandinavian "escorts" love the men from Medina. An unapologetic ding here, followed by an unapologetic bang there, and what do you get? Well, for one thing, an unmolested stroll in London.
Let's hope that others use your link and make the connection. Sun Tzu would be proud.
no, danmyers, a return to the hypothetical.
disagreement, here, stems from the perception of the current realities, not the desire to win the war.
Buddy wrote:
This extra crude spot-price buck or three or ten or twenty--prices being set at the margin, by auction--is paying a breathtaking cash premium, daily--that's daily--to bad guys. Wot a racket--especially the part hiding inside a major world religion...
Now I think of oil prices as a market signal that is telling us about supply and demand (duh), and I have always been impressed by American abilities to respond intelligently and creatively to such signals. Furthermore, I have no illusions about the short-term prospects of "alternative energies," except possibly nuclear ones, to bring oil prices down.
But I am puzzled as to why we have let ourselves get into such a fix, and why there seems to be so little effort to do whatever could be done (tar sands and oil shales, ANWR, continental shelf drilling) to affect the margins in the way the bad guys seem to be doing so efficiently.
Jamie Irons
buddy,
your 7;41 makes post has, to me, a glaring hole in it.
It assumes we have the decision making power to define the conduct of the war, that we have the inititive.
That is plainly not the case.
The US has been in a "reactive" mode for the entire conflict. Indeed if not for 9-11 there would be no Conflict, for US.
Even in Iraq, we ended Combat Operations well before the "War" was won, but then did not depart.
Giving our enemies time to regroup, reorganize and respond to US tactics.
Now we are reacting to Iraqi political concerns, not the Military aspects of the greater War.
The ascension of Mr al-Sadr to Defender of Baghdad will be seen for what it is, someday.
Time is fleeting, we have election cycles and an impatient people.
The "Long War" strategy is doomed to fail, there is no precedent for it, in US history.
Once a War is engaged it should be waged, decisively or not engaged at all.
Perceptions get argued, but discord mainly centers around reactions to perceptions.
"Yes, but that's not how to frame it!"
Allen, unlike more-or-less line-of-sight M2 .50 cal 1943 fire, nowadays any sort of missile can "misfire" and cause a regrettable accident.
deseret rat,
Your 7:24 AM - We have been fighting on the Enemy's terms.
Bingo!!!
Sun Tzu said, "Know your enemy." More importantly, he said, "Know yourself."
For decades, we have tacitly, meekly, permitted our adversaries to define us. The classic case, and one readily applicable to Islam, is the Mexican invasion across our southern border.
Have you ever heard a politician of national prominence tell Mexico to solve ITS problem of illegal immigration? No, we have let the Mexicans define the problem as OUR immigration problem. Their maladministration identifies us and our government, the MSM, and some here blindly acquiesce.
Now, consider who is framing the premises and identities in the ME? - Hamas, Hezbollah, the Muslim Brotherhood etc, etc, etc, ad infinitum, ad nauseum. This surrender of the moral integrity is not unique to this administration; it has been part and parcel of every American administration since that of Mr. Truman.
Desert Rat: Do you recall the original Star Trek Episode where the Enterpise goes to a planet that has been at war with another one for decade? They had entered into an agreement where attacks are simulated, and they kill their own citizens to avoid the messy business of actually blowing things up? They had established their own Laws of War that ensured that it kept going with a minuimum of fuss and bother.
Capt Kirk ended the war by forcing things to get messy.
In many ways, that is what we are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan: forcing things to get messy in order to get the war over with.
I vote to get even messier.
Since the birth of the Department of Defense, allen.
Do away with the War Department and
promote "defense"
which by definition never "wins" by defeating the enemy, but by "not losing"
The string of non Victories that have accompanied the Dept of Defense is staggering when viewed in that context.
Korea, 'Nam, Kosovo to name but the famous.
The "big" battle, with the Soviets was won without a shot fired at the Soviets. But the cost was the loss of a War fighting ethic so vital to victorious Armies.
The ability to identify, close with and destroy the Enemy.
The DoD has yet to destroy a foe and win a War. Outside the Caribe
To expect more in the Mohammedan Wars is oximoranic
rat, it's still the same conundrum--blood is thick, and the Short war will enlist us some untold number of Ahmed Sixpacks, world-wide. And, thanks to western economic freedoms and globalization, there's a hostage on every street corner in every city in the world (a bank, a Mickey D, a western union office)--and lots of westerners and their families, too. That's the argument--a much stronger need for an immediate decision will be needed before such can be overwritten.
Jamie--there's some element of truth on the attack on "Big Oil"--though most of it should fall on the cartel OPEC--but due to unfettered responses to supply/demand's price signal, every price crisis has ended up with an alternative-fuel investment-cycle being subverted by a price-induced supply surge followed by a supply-induced price-collapse. Leaving plenty of damaged investors, with memories, around.
However, this time around, if you look at the shale, sands, ethanol, and even solar companies--even companies such as Zoltek which makes carbon fibers for windmills--a tremendous surge in their stock prices--dubs and trips--over the last year, bodes well for our supply a few years hence. Though these alternatives have a per-BTU cost that makes them undoable with oil out there, cheaper.
(( side note--the Shelf--the problem is the states (Florida unfairly gets all the credit due to the Bush thing). Currently, they get zippo from drilling offshore their waters. The states are therefore "for" the Moratorium--on the Nimby grounds, perforce the active and hostile Green Movement. There is a proposal in Congress to pay the states a royalty, and this should open the Shelf. In time. Write your congressperson! ))
Democracy--in the populist form--does have some weaknesses, and this energy/jihad confluence is going to give it a run for the money.
It is a precedent not to emulate, trish.
That is the problem, believe the President, the longer it takes, the lesser the chance of Victory.
buddy larsen,
Your 8:19 AM - "regrettable"
In the case of Mr. Chavez it would be regrettable, indeed. Mechanical malfunctions, computer glitches, bad weather, and the always popular "pilot error" have put many a plane into the side of an Andean peak or into the drink.
As evidenced by today's Nigerian pipeline "malfunction", regrettable events are daily occurrences. Perhaps, soon, we will catch a break, as probability would dictate, and gain some "unanticipated" benefit from one of life's regrettable accidents.
Do you recall a regrettable accident taking place in Serbia shortly after the technologically disadvantaged Serbs downed one of our stealth aircraft? Seems the Chinese embassy had an errant American weapon come through a window and regrettably detonate. Tough luck that.
You know, with enough fortuitous but regrettable events, during which enough KEY bad boys regrettably take the express route from Bern to Hades, the much discussed nuclear option might be foreclosed.
In order to assist the fascist NSA agents plugged into this site, “That would be wrong.”
There were lots of Japanese, all over Asia, buddy.
Germans were in Africa.
The Germans had the "biggest boats", like you have said, in the first years of WWII it looked "bad" for US.
We did not let old age weaken the Waffen SS.
General Yamamoto did not hit the ocean of his own accord.
We killed over a million civilians to end that war, the idea that this one can be settled on the cheap, will only cost US more.
History will put that bill on Mr Bush's desk, no doubt about that.
Jamie--here's a key rule-of-thumb with which to assess the reality: 2005 saw a doubling of oil-exploration expenditures, and it just barely maintained 2004's proven reserves. World consumption rose 2% 2005 Y2Y. The world is producing about 85 mm bpd, and consuming virtually all (so a 2% increase in consumption was able to vault prices 20%). The believers in "peak oil" hold that we will never--despite all efforts--get much more than 85 mm bpd. So, with PRC alone forecasting a doubling of needs in a decade--along with their stated decade-out goal of reducing total commercial exports from today's 65% of production (meaning, they need us) to 35% (meaning, they don't), we have a very challenging environment before us.
ANWAR is potentially MUCH bigger than the Greens say it is ("six months supply"), and yet we cannot drill there, due to the Green facility with such nonsense phrases as "it's like burning your Steinway to heat your living room". feh.
All this, is why I squabble with folks who flame the Bushies over the world situation--at least the Bushies offer *some* chance at climbing outta the hole we're in. Maybe the Dems do too--but not behind such as Reid, Pelosi, Conyers, Leahy, Kerry, Kennedy, and GORE!
Rat, 9:05--if only this enemy had armies in the field, ships, tanks, aircraft--and their production centers--to target. That's a measure of the conundrum, ain't it, that the West needs the enemy to build big steel weapons?
Over the past few years there have been many comparisons drawn to both Mr Churchill and Mr Chamberlain and their present day facsimiles.
Mr Bush was often compared to Mr Churchill, his opponents JFKerry, Al Gore, et al, were consistently portrayed in the Chamberlain mode.
History may well see the situation differently.
Will 5 years of the "Religion of Peace" mantra come back to haunt Mr Bush?
Much like "Peace in our Time"
buddy
the Mohammedans do have Armies and the like. We refuse to engage them, further.
The Mohammedan aggression, internally, in Sudan is just a case in point.
Warizistan...
There are targets, we choose not to engage them.
You are right, the conundrum only exists because we do not engage what targets they do have.
well, most of the targets are nominally engaging AQ at the moment--
It has been five years, why are any of the Golden Chain links alive?
Danmeyers,
Here I am, thanks for the summons but you just skipped over dr. ziaus above. He made some good points and that link he gave is well worth a look at.
You guys and gals seem to think these jihadis run around with a big TERRORIST sign on their head, that it is easy to identify one, and we all know that all that we catch or the buggers therefore we should kill them right away, or in Starling Hunters world, extract some juicy info first. It seems, though, they arent' so easy to spot and do we really want to give the soldier on the ground carte blanche to just wipe 'em out as they see fit, that jihadi sign so easy to spot? How about this guy?
wretchard, or anyone else for that matter, what specifically do you find problematic in the geneva conventions for the treatment of prisoners?
Wrong Area of Operations, buddy.
The Insurgent Sunni of Iraq were never part of the War on Terror, they were and are engaged in OIF, which is not one and the same as the WoT.
That is the real conundrum Mr Bush has placed himself & US in.
Politicized CIA can't do shit, is why. it'll rat itself out for some political ink.
Now the Insurgent Sunni are hunting aQ, as is Mr al-Sadr's militia, so now they are both our allies?
Or are they both still our Enemies?
Well, rat, Baathe sure was/is part of the GWot. I don't think anybody knows how many terrorists OIF created--some for sure.
Shitty deal--but Saddam and every other enemy we--along with everybody since the dawn of time--have ever had, will always raise a larger and larger army the more their enemy fights back.
I think the internecine conflict is normal--a sign even, of at least a localized breakdown. The Germans who tried to kill Hitler kept right on shooting at us before and after. Examples everytwhere--the norm, actually. I think Patton and Montgomery hated each other more than they hated the Nazies.
I'm way over allotment--and starting to nitpick--sorry--I'll retire awhile--ignore me--
Only on the periphery, buddy,
Or there'd have been no need for another "Authorization"
Thousands of Sunni Insurgents would not have engaged US, if we had not been in their space.
OIF put US troops in Iraq, not the WoT.
To try to blend the two together, is part of the conundrum Mr Bush created.
Onesies & twosies, fer sure, Iraq provided support to Terrorists.
But the PKK is a terrorist organization operating out of US controlled geography, in Iraq.
Are the deaths they cause, in Turkey, to be blamed upon US?
If it leaked, papa bear, it would validate that the US was really at War, that it's enemies were targeted and if they did not stand down, we'd flame 'em all.
But we do not act that way.
We are losing the Wars, as well.
Unless you believe Mr al-Sadr is a true friend to US.
Think on what the last five years might've brought us, sans OIF. Yes, we're in a muddle, but a muddle is better than an allied Iran/Iraq/Russia intimidating and/or conquering the Gulf States--and putting whatever price they wanted--say $200--on just enough crude to keep us from having to invade pretty much a third of the world--or starve.
Bookkeeping is a double-entry procedure.
Think on how many allies an enemy-controlled allocation of oil could buy. Just the whiff of the threat is doing a pretty bang-up job of that, as is.
Yesterday is not the topic of discussion, buddy.
OIF is a reality, so is Mr al-Sadr's ascension to "Defender of Baghdad".
The two are intertwined, we are or at least were, the responsible party for that ascension.
It's out of our hands, now.
Time marches on.
What do we do for an encore?
Ahmadi-Nejad has declared war on us.
'Nuff said.
It's time to roll, darkly.
yesterday is only important to the extent that it colors tomorrow. Apprehension of the quality of our leadership must rest on yesterday, and will color tomorrow.
For once I read agreement here on the proper way to fight Islam--no quarter. but the meme that not all Islamists are terrorists persists. Virtually any Muslim can be turned into a terrorist or suicide bomber using the pressure tactics of their leadership. Thus all Muslims are at least potentially jihadists, all billion or so of them.
If we were to go in and begin to wipe out as many Muslims as we could find, whether certified terrorists or not, I shudder to think of the reaction of the rest of the Islamic world, not to underestimate worldwide condemnation and reprisal.
The only solution seems to be to paint non-jihadists pink and shoot the others.
Or, as some have advocated, cripple their economy, take over their oil, and confiscate their holdings wherever possible, isolate their countries, and prevent their travel. Of course, shoot the avowed terrorists too.
Buddy, while I would agree with DR that yesterday isn't really the topic of conversation, but even then I think you got your fantasy future/past wrong. Iraq would have continued to counter balance Iran and continued its campaign against Islamism, the inspectors would continue to tell US what we now know, no WMD, Russia, well, it would still be Russia and oil would be at 35 bucks a barrel. Ya, accounting is double entry...
Mr Bush's cratering numbers is not because of the decision to invade Iraq.
It is not caused by the fall of Saddam in a matter of weeks.
It is caused, in part, by the failure to "close the deal" in Iraq. By the fact our enemies have been empowered, that the "Victory" against Saddam has been squandered.
Mr Rumsfeld, I do not think he's liar, either.
"If we leave now, it'll be same as Saddam", to paraphrase.
He was commenting on the Iraqi
Spin that to Victory, I can't.
buddy larsen,
Your 9:07 AM - "Reid, Pelosi, Conyers, Leahy, Kerry, Kennedy, and GORE"
Shame on you! You did that on purpose. The Seven Dwarfs, indeed.
Ha--accident, but maybe subconscious. I left Hillary out, because, if the politics are right for her, she'll be the Valkyrie from Hell, to our enemies.
Ash--if I'm spinning fantasy, what are *you* spinning?
Rat, you're probably right--but isn't all that "yesterday", and don't we need a smidgen of confidence in our leaders if we're gonna do squat from now on?
buddy wrote:
"Ash--if I'm spinning fantasy, what are *you* spinning?"
exactly, which was my point, it really is moot and any number of possibilities coulda' been.
Ash, suppose oil could--by say some edict from the UN--be held at 35--would that increase supply any?
Not that I'm agreeing with any particle of your post--but just to point out that you've ignored most of the reality, in favor of a bumper-sticker.
hehehe, danmyers "proponent of this war" hmmmm that ever murky ill defined Orwellian battle against....
buddy, hunh?? UN pegging the price of oil??? That sure came from left field. Now I know the war dan was referring to - the bumper sticker war.
(do the stickers count if they are left in the garage due to constrained personal budgets?)
Sorry, Ash, I was being fantasist--that was my point--to point out to a statist-mindset that regardless of any price-control, we have a supply problem. Price at least retards consumption (conserves supply)--and yes I know who that burden falls upon. I regret the way things are, all the hell over the place.
buddy larsen,
Your 10:33 AM - Hillary
Well, there you go again - Snow Sprite and the Seven Dwarfs. This site sooooo partisan.
Leaving the thing in the garage more, is precisely what we will be doing, bet on it. Blame it on whoever, it won't matter.
However, we will adapt to new patterns, and like as not will be just fine--if we don't fold up like 300 million lawnchairs.
As soon as we have to carpool, we might find out we like the neighbors!
\:-D
If the warring party does not abide by the rules of the Geneva Convention then that fact alone should instantly break the "contract" and release the other combatant from any requirement to obey those rules whatsoever. If the warring party happens to be a diminutive little runty arab country or group within that country then so be it. They should be summarily destroyed without any compunction whatsoever, with overwhelming force and maximum destruction. The purpose of this is not vengence or anger - it is a very simple concept called Deterence, which only has effectiveness when it is proven that the other party is willing to use it. Otherwise, as in the current situation, there is zero Deterence, and leave the enemy in a good position to behave like ... like ... like what? We have no words to describe the depth of evil that the Islamofascist Terrorist Imbeciles have stooped to. Monster? Not good enough. Fiend? Not yet. I will have to make up a word: SatansWorst.
Hey, the higher price of oil modifies behavior in all sorts of ways. I'm no fan of price controls (to put it mildly).
oh--sorry i misunderstooderated your "$35" comment--
Allen--that's Snow White"--i know because i'm halfway thru the book, and man is it challenging!
papa bear,
Wow, you've nailed it. Islamic fanaticism has proved to be incurable. Henceforth, the US will perform IMMEDIATE frontal lobotomies on all captured jihadis, and they will be released within 2 weeks. Probably less than 100 of these outpatient treatments should be necessary. .
I am going to guess that most contributors to this site support accuracy in munitions delivery, if for no other reasons than practicality and economy. Well, why not select our human targets with the same care. We don't need to kill EVERYBODY if we thoughtfully kill the right SOMEBODIES. We have not been doing that systematically and routinely.
Ash, we begin by executing the unlawful combatants caught in the act. It’s just a hunch but if we get busy on these "warriors" they will be begging to give information as they are stood-up against the wall. Just might be a way to kill two birds with one stone.
Students of history may want to recall that some US Territories (It was illegal in Texas, and I believe States) practiced "outlawing", an old English tradition of stripping a person of protection of the law. So you'd get "Wanted Dead or Alive" bounties. It pretty much violates the 5th & 6th Amendments for the US to practice it domestically, but I think the Outlaw concept should be brought back.
Imagine it this way: "Be it known that any person on this list, or verifiable cohorts, shall no longer enjoy the protection of law, statute, or code by the United States. Futhermore, the United States will vigorously protect and defend any citizen accused of committing an illegal act against any person on this list against prosecution by any body that should claim jurisdiction to do so. Finally a reward for each person on this list is payable on deliverance of the physical corpus of said person, living or dead."
I believe that pretty much covers all the legal bases. Will bad men do bad things to men on this list? Probably. Do I care? Nope.
exhelodrvr, the reason that we're aware of suicide bombers is because of the problem in Israel and Iraq, from the folks that we're fighting. We won't drive them to it because they already use that as a weapon. The second point is that they are already being released by sympathetic courts in Iraq and Afghanistan and showing up on the battlefield, along with the boys who were released from Guantanamo.
How much time and effort are we willing to expend on people who are out to kill us regardless of what we do. If one wants to fight a chivalrous war one has to engage a chivalrous opponent. At least that's what they told me when I first joined the Marine Corps (later Carter brought us 'The Laws Of Land Warfare' which means that we lose under any scenario).
Two words exemplify the problems with how the US deals with our Enemy. These two words are the true indicator of US Policies and Actions.
More than the empty State & Justice Depts billets in Baghdad, these two words tell all of US and the Mohammedan World that we are not yet at War.
Two words that have 'em smiling in Warizistan, while securing Jihadi strong points
Zacarias Moussaoui
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
I guess the arrow was WAY wide of the mark.
The analogy I was "trying" for is this:
Zacarias Moussaoui admitted being an aQ soldier, admitted to plotting and training for aircraft attacks.
He was not treated as a POW.
He was not treated within or without the Convention Guidelines.
He was a common criminal defendent.
He could have been held forever at Gitmo.
He could have been tried by a Military Tribunal and held or executed.
But no, he was elevated to being a common criminal, tried in Federal Court, at a reported cost of $65 Million USD.
Mitigating circumstance keeps him alive, at great further expense.
His father was a mean man, you know.
That is how we are fighting this "War"
Really
Herr Doktor, verwendest du einen anderen Namen, wie "Dementia"?
Mike H,
I was referring more to people committing suicide, and taking our people with them, rather than surrendering. Again, I don't have a problem with the ethics, but it needs to be seriously looked at from a practical standpoint, too.
dr. zaius,
Your 11:29 AM
Thank you for the links.
Ah, sweet words, danmyers--take your sons and daughters hunting and fishing. if you don't hunt or fish, learn it together. Have 'em pour a walkway somewhere, or build a playhouse. Change tires and oil for sure before driving. If they won't get off the computer, lock it for a week, for the shock, then compromise.
"... WASHINGTON (AP) — Law enforcement officials executed search warrants Friday on the house and office of CIA's outgoing executive director as part of an investigation into corruption involving agency contracts, the FBI said.
The CIA's third ranking official, Kyle "Dusty" Foggo, has been under investigation by the FBI, IRS, Defense Criminal Investigative Service, the CIA's inspector general and the U.S. attorney's office in San Diego, said FBI spokeswoman April Langwell in San Diego. ..."
The "Duke" Cunningham story.
Like herpes, it just doesn't "go away"
The pre-Cold War Geneva conventions are rooted in the sort of thinking that war meant switching one European ruler for another. The Cold War additions which the U.S. has not signed on to favor "liberation movement" and non-sovereign un-uniformed combatants -- that is, they are designed to protect terrorists.
The Geneva Conventions are also flawed because (1) they are unequal if both sides do not follow them, and (2) they make a war crime out of punishing property, but not killing people. Had the Union followed the Geneva Conventions in the Civil War, Sherman would never have marched through Georgia and a long and bloody guerilla war would have been lengthened the conflict to decades - and driven the body count even higher.
I think your friend has a point--the child-obesity crisis came on the heels of videogames--TV was bad--insofar as raising well-rounded kids--but this new world is positively devilish--bad enough for us old farts who make a living (or in the case of the last two days, an anti-living) on it--
desert rat,
Why can't we keep up the momentum on the GWOT and a host of other pressing issues? Try this: "It's a little odd to hear a judge ordering someone not to comply with
immigration law..." The judge is a Clinton appointee to the Federal bench.
Given the resurrection at CI, the duplicity of State, and the capricious judicial activism of some Federal judges, it's a wonder that anything gets done.
As to the Federal judge, a President that paid more than lip-service to rule of law would order an expedited appeal to SCOTUS. That will not happen.
Sun Tzu would advise the ruler of a dysfunctional kingdom to act how? Something tells me a foreign war would not be on the table. But, what did Sun Tzu know anyhow?
http://www.michellemalkin.com/
for an explanation, cjb, read danmyers' link--
...the idea of self-preservation was as jealously guarded from the young as the facts of sex had been in earlier ages....
Allen, a fantasy--instead of telling Americans How Great We Are, a politician tells the truth--that we're okay, but awfully goddamn soft, selfish, ignorant, and not a little arrogant about it all--and are gonna get our asses handed to us REAL proper-like very soon, if we don't square up.
A little OT post for the Rat:
I know you've lamented the prisoners passing through a revolving door in Iraq and this post by Salam Pax made me think of you:
"Today there was an interview with the minister of Justice in the newspaper.
There have been rumours that inmates who have been sentenced to death for crimes related to terrorism have been walking out of their cells by the truckload. And there is one wild rumour circulating about a group of another terrorists in a “high security” Iraqi jail in a remote area digging a tunnel out of their jail.
What was his response? He admitted that death-row inmates have been bribing the prison wardens and they were letting them go. He didn’t think it was his or his ministry’s fault. Apparently it is the fault of the National Assembly. The law laid down by the NA for death sentences make it necessary to do a lot of paper work which has been taking the ministry up to two months to finish and this time is apparently more than enough for indicted terrorists to become chummy with their wardens and find out how much it would take to let hem walk and then get in contact with their buddy terrorists and arrange for payments."
Instantly hang the bribe-takers, or or or.....
or, or....have them stick the money in the US stock market? ;)
Can't do that, buddy.
It is contrary to the Arab culture norms.
Which we must respect, more than the lives of our troops.
Catch and Release
It was old when first reported
Worse now, ignorance is no longer an excuse
Iraq for the Iraqis,
time marches on,
they want US completely out in '08.
Mr Bush said in a news conference that it wasn't up to him, but the Iraqis and the next President. Gives US an extra year, on the outside, even if he's right.
Hah--good one, Ash. But do read danmyers instap link; some forms of holiness lead to bad results--
\;-)
insurrection
I am not in favor of CI's resurrection.
The dialectic is unfolding slowly.
The problem with the Geneva Conventions as they presently exist is not only that they are antiquated, but that the terrorists' "asymmetrical" abuse of those conventions may effectively discredit the entire notion of human rights altogether.
The entire idea of human rights is anathema to al-Qaeda (and Saudi Arabia and Iran and...). So, they fight in a manner designed use our human rights standards against us. And so far, they have been succeeding.
I'll suggest that revising the Geneva Conventions to address the new reality is not merely a mundane necessity, but an ideological one as well. The cause of human rights can only be redeemed if that cause is not allowed to be abused by al-Qaeda.
Case in point: I think every government should be required to videotape every moment of the custody of every unlawful combatant. This would allow investigators to disprove (or verify) whether the torture claimed by terrorists did in fact occur. As it is, governments are caught in a Catch-22; they cannot release photos of captured combatants (as that would be an offense against Geneva Conventions), so they cannot defend themselves against false accusations by terrorists and their relatives.
Moreover, 24-7 videos of the unlawful combatants should be put onto the World Wide Web. Again, this would allow every activist from Amnesty International to see, minute by minute, how the detainees are treated and more importantly, how the detainees may themselves be responsible for human rights abuses.
Well the repeal of "Protocol 1" ( the Soviet terrorist protection amendment that the US never signed) from the Geneva Conventions would be a start.
Acknowleging facts that were known in the British Empire , to whit, that some religions are sociopathic, some incorporate sociopathic elements, and that the Empire would tolerate neither.
See: India's Thuggee cult.
See: fundamental Islam
The Japanese were a defeated people
The Iraqi a liberated one.
Major difference in mentality and aspirations.
Timelines will invariably shorten.
The Iraqi that are now empowered have been quite clear on the subject of US garrisons.
They are to gone by the end of '08 in their entirety.
That is the Iraq public position now, with 133,000 in the Country. As we draw down, they will want the pace accelerated, not slowed.
The little economic "trickle down" caused by US occupation, that buddy reported yesterday, not nearly enough to swallow their pride over our staying.
We do not have the inititive on our "Stay behind" force. The debate been badly muddled on the entire subject.
The Garrisoning decision will not be ours to make.
desert rat,
You spoke earlier of the difficulties confronting the Bush administration in the GWOT. I thought you might like this,
"...if names are not correct ,language will not be in accordance with the truth of things and with time this will lead to the end of Justice, to anarchy and to war" - Confucius
Utopianism must change minds from a natural state, and every attempt to change minds from where nature has put them, must do it with meanings, with what the meaning of "is" is. And yes indeedy someone will pay, when ya mess with Mother Nature.
I understand the reasons to stay. I have always supported a vibrant force, split between enhanced ISF embeds and an equipment security force.
50,000 or so troopers combined.
I do not believe we will see it.
The players should be taken, pretty much, at their word.
Mr Maliki will not want US meddling in Iraqi affairs of State.
Nor Mr al-Sadr or Imam Sistani.
That is a fact beyond dispute.
Mr Sistani, perhaps the most influental man in Iraq, has yet to meet with an American.
Letters from Mr Bush lay, untranslated and unread on the desk.
I do not believe that Ms Rice will make much headway with Islamists that regard women as chattel property, sorry for that nonPC dose of reality. Niether she and Ms Albright, they are not the "Best" messengers when dealing with men from the 14th century.
To use the "negotiating opportunity" to "enlghten" our Enemies is counterproductive, IMO
I think we'll treat with the Iraq gov't, quite publicly, and trade economic/technical aid for a ten year basing deal. drlg rig rates are sky high, land rig builders like Varco have dubbed, and are deep-backordered. Iraq will need Ami companies badly for the next decade. Meanwhile we gotta do in the jihad. the 2008 statement was rather offhand, and an initial negotiating ploy--imho.
My Japenese friends have always told me that I was a Buddhist at heart.
It seems from that quote, I could be a bit Confucian as well, but those Asian religions. There is no one watching, but yourself and the Karma wheel.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Sistani may not be falling into our arms, but he is also not losing street cred by falling into our arms. he's smart--watch what he do, not what he don't say publicly to the 'other' (us). Remember--he's a religious leader--and we ain't the Ummah.
I'd agree, buddy.
Mr Sistani is for stability and security.
The US can provide niether in Iraq.
For any number of reasons, to be sure, but the bottom line remains the same, regardless.
The "Defender of Baghdad" is in the slot, now. Perhaps with a higher body count he will succeed, where we have failed.
Perhaps not.
To depend on American Oil Companies fulfilling US Foreign policy, when the Chinese will cut a better deal is looking on the sunnyside to be sure.
Many more of the exiles, now controlling Iraq, have French Connections, rather than US.
Our folks were "frozen" out, by the process.
The French, Russian and other EU companies, they know how to play the "Game", for the US companies, the "Game" itself is illegal.
The field is not level, nor will it be so soon.
If those State and Justice billets had been filled, if the US Government really gave a shit and was serious about the "War" perhaps things would be different, but they are not.
hope you're wrong--hope we have some friends, someone who will feel a little gratitude for the blood spilled to rid them of the Butcherman.
Memories of 1991 will continue to fill the room, when the Shia leaders speack to Ms Rice.
i hear that--
We did have friends, buddy.
We pulled the rug out from under them. Mr Bremmer saw it coming, it was no secret.
Mr al-Sadr's ascension is a direct result of US decisions. Foreseen by Mr Bremmer and reported by him to the President.
We Stayed the Course though and the result is now known.
well, one thing for sure--the odds @ invasion time were very long that the whole planet would soon be screaming that American Imperialists "colonized" Iraq and "took it over". our "hands off" approach has at least had the possibly long-term important effect that that line of propaganda is pretty much sunk to an AQ theme.
That is true, buddy.
We have a created a Wilsonian solution.
That is no solution at all,
per Mr Rumsfeld's assessment of the Iraqi
The Guardian and the NYTimes, they sure appreciate it, our self restraint, that's fer sure.
Look at the pathetic turn-out for the anti-war street protests in the world's cities, last OIF anniversary. heavily-promoted by A.N.S.W.E.R, paltry show.
the bremmer fecklessness, the USA backgrounding its presence in the elections--these are strategic actions, not oversights, and they have had a positive effect of sorts.
No, not a decisive effect--it's like weather--what's good for swimming is bad for skiing.
Even the antiWar protesters have come to realize, there is no War to be against, really.
Like Kosovo
It's just an Occupation
It's that ole double-entry again--one could say that the biggest danger of OIF was a VNam anti-war movement, a reprised Summer of '68 series, again. gotta enter that in as an admin credit, alongside the debit of the apparent muddle.
My 3:37 PM
A bit of senescent dyslexia in play to day. I should have referenced, "Black Death II?" - http://www.americanthinker.com/
articles.php?article_id=5489
feh
I see a lot of people calling for defiling Islamic terrorists with pig parts. Frankly, doing so isn't right.
After all, why waste a perfectly good pig?
StargazerA5
Postman is handing the farmer his mail, and asks what happened to the three-legged pig he sees in the yard. Farmer says the missing leg is from the barn fire he'd had last month.
Postman asks, "Oh, he lost the leg in the fire?"
Farmer answers, "No, that pig pulled me out of the fire, I owe him my life, so I hate to eat him all at once."
I hope you don't see them damn bees and wasps and mantises sittin in a circle eating each other.
Good discussion over @ Roger Simon's on the Little Beast. Pretty damn seriously this-ain't-no-disco shivery.
Prometheus said: "Starling, I hope you share some of the opinions you quoted of posters on this blog with your students in Dubai. They should understand before it's too late that Americans will do whatever it takes to survive. Your students shouldn't be confused about whether or not to support Islamism."
As best I can tell, my students have little sympathy for Islamism but a lot of sympathy for Islam. It is the sworn duty of the Islamists to make these two things one in the minds of Muslims and non-Muslims alike. It is the task of moderate Muslims and reformists to break the link that the Islamists are trying to forge.
There are people in this part of the world that we should worry about, but the students where I teach don't strike me as belonging to that group. Without exception, they all want to work in US or European multinationals and/or to pursue higher education in the US, Canada, or Europe and/or to start their own business using modern American management theory and techniques.
The sidebar of my blog, contains links to their blogs. I invite you to take a look and decide for yourself if you think the suggestions offered in this thread are ones they need to hear. (I am not saying that in a confrontational or argumentative way. I am sincerely interested.)
You might also find interesting the photos taken from the last day of class. The links on the names take you to each student's blog. They are on my photo blog, Bit, Sand, Pieces
Starling David Hunter said,
"You might also find interesting the photos taken from the last day of class. The links on the names take you to each student's blog. They are on my photo blog, Bit, Sand, Pieces"
An interesting and thoughtful post because it puts a face of the immediate potential victims of the Radical Islamists. Clearly, rhetoric aside, no sane person would wish these young modern people ill because they are Islamic. It is perplexing that there are no influential Islamic leaders that will take charge and dispatch the Radical Islamists. It is a fact that almost all the violent outrages are from Islamists groups. I sincerely believe that the ruthless focused irradication of the Radical Islamists would be successful and supported by modern Islamic allies, many of whom our terrified and intimidated by this same cynical facist element.
Just one more thought. The US and the allies were very successful in differentiating the Nazis from the Germans. Although there were clearly many ordinary Germans sympathetic to the Nazis, it was still an accurate and useful differentiation. It was easier as the Germans shared a common ancestry and religion with many Americans. It will be far more difficult but very necessary to accomplish the same goal with Islam. It will be impossible to do so without honesty. Clearly Tony Blair and GWB talking about a hijacked peaceful religion is not believable to most people, but the successful delineation between Islamist and Islam is an important achievable and necessary requirement for success.
The Terminator Trumps The Prevaricator
SCHWARZENEGGER SAYS NATIONAL GUARD ON BORDER 'NOT RIGHT WAY TO GO'
Fri May 12 2006 20:38:01 ET
"... Going the direction of the National Guard, I think is maybe not the right way to go because I think that the Bush administration and the federal government should put up the money to create the kind of protection that the federal government is responsible to provide."
"Not to use our National Guard, soldiers that are coming back from Iraq, for instance, and that have spent a year and a half over there and now they are coming back. I think that we should let them go to work, back to work again."
gokart-mozart,
I agree that a serious message still needs to be sent to the Mohammedan.
We, as a Nation, seem incapable of doing so. It is cetainly beyond the current capabilities of the Federal Government and it's employees.
If the only enemy of the US in the world on 9-12-01 had been Saddam, boy we kicked some ass.
But since he was but a small time Dictator of a dysfunctional Country, we've done squat.
The dash to Baghdad overshadowed by the mud bog of Ramadi, Fallujah, Mosul & Basra.
The debate over Mr Chilabi's abilities no longer pertinent, the charges of his ties to Iran, small potaatos, now.
There being no debate about Mr Makili and al-Sadr's backgrounds and disposistions. In a word, their faction engaged US in combat,killing Marines.
We have given them Baghdad.
"... Early this year, Frank Luntz, who helped frame the 1994 GOP manifesto known as the Contract With America, produced a white paper for Republican congressional candidates that sounded the alarm.
"In the 14 years I have worked for a Republican majority -- including two years that led up to the 1994 landslide -- I have never seen the GOP so far behind the Democrats on so many issues and attributes," Luntz wrote. "This document is more than a message plan. It is a wake-up call for every Republican to return to their roots in policy, principles, and language. What brought you to power in 1994 can keep you in power in 2006 -- but only if voters hear it and believe it." ...
.... "You can't count on the ineptitude of Democrats to give you a victory this year," he warns bluntly. ..."
"... Norquist is unconvinced that electoral Armageddon is just around the corner. Call him the un-Luntz.
"Where's the math? Show me the 15 House districts the Democrats will pick up," Norquist said in an interview. "Democrats are the mommy party. They don't do math. They tell stories. One of their stories: Because of Hurricane Katrina, poverty was rediscovered in America and it became a left-wing Democratic country. Most people don't see that. They saw looters."
Knowing that he's spitting into the wind of conventional wisdom, Norquist says the same things about corruption -- and Iraq.
"Democrats were winning on Iraq as long as they stood there mutely, pointing at Bush," he said. "But then they started talking about what they wanted, and it reminded people of the old joke: 'How do you like your wife?' 'Compared to what?' How do you like Bush's Iraq policy? Compared to immediate pullout of the troops? So then they switched to 'culture of corruption.' "
In Norquist's view, there has already been a preview of how the corruption issue will play in November. It was the special election in California's 50th Congressional District to replace the imprisoned Cunningham. The Republican candidates got 55 percent of the vote; the lone Democrat got 44 percent.
"So much for the theory that Democrats would be energized and Republicans would stay home, ashamed because of DeLay and Abramoff and Cunningham -- and this was at ground zero of the culture of corruption!" Norquist said. "We've held Congress through war, recession, a $7 trillion loss in the stock market, in elections with an incumbent Democratic president and against two serious Democratic presidential candidates. This is not a weak, untested majority." ... "
The Rules of War will matter even less if the Congress changes hands.
To all those that have written that Mr Bush will soldier on, fighting on against the Mohammedan threat regardless.
That is not how the Country really works.
The quotes were taken from this piece in the National Journal.
I doubt messages are necessary or effective. I believe there are some individuals whose expiration dates have passed.
DB,
I am beginning to wonder which will be worse. The Republicans , not chastised or the Democrats victorious. As Kissinger once quipped. Too bad they both can't lose.
Which could well bring Mr Powell into the fray in '08.
Much like Mr Perot, a vehicle of popular discontent, which brought US the Clinton Presidency.
Ms Clinton could attempt to navigate a similar course. It is not a course of action beyond her husband's capabilities to implement.
An interesting piece in the American Conservative, The Weakness of Empire
aristide may find the comparison between Rome and US interesting. He's made reference to Rome, often, in the past.
I am not sure I totally agree with Mr Vlahos's take on the matter, but it is interesting to see his perspective on the simularities and differences that have developed between the two "empires" seperated by a millenium.
Orlando,
Theoreticly, perhaps.
"Turning Islam," vs. "getting Islam's RAPT ATTENTION!" has always been the question.
On the one hand, nukes provide the ultimate, most immediate force-multiplier. On the other, we try some less drastic tactics, over some period of time, attempting to speak softly, while weilding the most capable stick anybody's ever had. Targeted assassination, from the Gods, is very attention-getting.
Okay, four years in I'm becoming increasingly impatient with all the political solutions so far. Besides, the homeland is being invaded, remains unprotected by fiat, and the structure of individual rights is falling apart, faster than I'd thought.
Obviously, the US doesn't have the rapt attention of Islam, worldwide, down to the individual imam. Why not? The imams are the most identifiable jihadi-enablers.
It's not like Americans are going to permit suicide bombing, ever-closer to home, in spite of the UN.
IMHO, we (and the rest of the west) don't have the time to turn Islam via discussion. As the arguments for lieniency, tolarance, humane treatment and appeasement of these murderous psychopaths (outnumering the Thugee Cult by a factor of 1 to 10 thousand) wear thinner, becoming less meaningful to an ever more threated audience, we lose patience and options.
I don't know why, but we're not yet angry enough to use the big guns...what next?
The War Against Radical Religionists. The US announces a program to eliminate radical preachers of all religion faiths. Anyone preaching "death and destruction" against any country,or group AUTOMATICALLY becomes a targeted individual. We are listening. The imams have been warned.
The newly announced fleet of mini-Predator drones is armed with a variety of munitions. The drones can be swarmed to attack entire congregations of hate-preachers, or to individually hover-on-station for up to 14 days, listening/searching for the pre-targeted individual.
When asked about the potential for collateral damage, and killing and injuring innocent worshippers, the Pentagon offical suggested to those potential innocents that they not risk their lives and their mosques listening to anyone on the target list. Last month's list of targeted preachers is available by writing to:
I read your post and was thinking from your conclusions along the lines of Robert Graves poetry from the muse, the magic of owned objects, perhaps even the earned race memory-like conclusions of minds connected by direction, belief and the goodness ever present in all men. No, from a quick read of the synopsis of Jeanes work ( He describes the two halves of the brain ' theleft brain hears voices and the right side shouts but this implies no communication with the outside ether.....sounds like a rock to me. Even a cockroach will dodge a crashing shoe. The nature shows no animal willing to go gentle into that good night; isn't that evidence enough for self awareness? Didn't this early man fight, love ,die for causes? What reductionalist view allows this totally improbable conclusion in the face of observable facts without being shouted down or laughed at. His is a total Darwinian oversimplification that no matter how implausible is acceptable in opposition to the impossible to ignore evidence of something greater than ourselves. I.E. God.
The modern alternative to this swirling randomness, [ that is so stupid it takes 1500 years to count to ten(source; Evolution: Possible or impossible by Dr. James F Coppedge p47)], is the emerging theory of complexity. This self-emergent tendency built into the "system" is traceable in the progress of civilizations, organizations, love affairs, the four seasons of history( The fourth Turning by authors William Strauss and Neil Howe., Perhaps these tribespeople are more attuned to their surroundings than you. Maybe they find the same magic watching you use Word or Photoshop on a computer. the 'ol perfessor
promethea,
Your 9:22 PM
You are too kind.
"We do not hate the Arabs for killing our children, we hate them for making us kill theirs" - Golda Meir ...
I long for the day when, again, we may go up to Jerusalem in peace. Until then, well...until then.
promethea,
Next year, in Jerusalem!
promethea,
Next year, in Jerusalem!
Starling, thanks for the thoughts. Honestly, the thing I would want to get across to young people, especially those who want their countries to aspire toward joining in the advance of Civilization rather than its destruction (not OUR Civilization as in "The West", but ALL Civilization, which includes the advancement of science and reason, as well as spiritual morality), would be this:
Clean up your own house first. That is your first responsibility. When you have accomplished that, then you will be ready to join in the effort and will not be "The Enemy". Until then... well, we can not be blamed for taking the view that among 100 people from that region, 10 of them may be Terrorists or sympathizers, and that might be a low estimate. We can not afford to take that chance because such a few number of "bad apples" can do so much damage. So they should understand that is is not racism (which is what The Enemy wants to define our reaction as in order to perpetuate their hate), but rather it is self preservation.
The formula is simple. Now it is up to them to decide what they will do. The future may well depend on their decisions.
stated:
Mr. Amadinnerjacket has declared war on the U.S. and Israel several times. There's no way to talk oneself out of this truth (unless one is a racist liberal who thinks that Amad and his Mullah masters are too stupid to say what they mean). They've declared war on us, and we need to destroy them in a way that everyone knows that we're mean murderous bastards, and don't mess with us.
Funny, i was posting on a syrian blog, they felt that I as a jew should please "PLAY" nice, since i did not want the middle east to be set on fire..
I responded: for Israel and the Jews when was the middle east safe...
personally any world leader than advocates the destruction of the state of israel should get a rocket up his ass....
welcome to my new handle, formely known as "pork rinds for allah"
Send the terrorists to Florida. Our alligators are hungry.
"Wonder where that Muslim terrorist went to?
"Alligator bait in a Florida bayou..."
With apologies to Jerry Lee Lewis.
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