Waiting
Two items, the first from a European blog called Snouck Hurgronje, which has a link to a Jihadi sniper video showing attacks on American soldiers. I don't normally link to that stuff but I'll make an exception in this case because it's important to remember that one is facing the enemy -- not misunderstood people in colorful costumes -- an enemy which delights in the death of Americans. The second is a link to an outstanding audio tape of an interview with Ayaan Hirsi Ali. In case some readers have forgotten, Ms. Ali was once a convinced Islamist who approved of the fatwa on Salman Rushdie. She is now the subject of a fatwa herself. Although I don't agree with all of her policy positions the audio exemplifies better than anything else how a quality mind works when exposed to ideas and to facts.
But those two items are merely background for this bit of news. Hamas may have won the Palestinian elections, which may in turn make Benjamin Netanyahu the next Prime Minister of Israel. CNN is now reporting that the current Palestinian government has resigned. The election of Hamas taken together with the crisis in Iran suggests that that the world is being challenged by very deeply rooted forces which traditional international institutions may be incapable of handling. The way to safety hangs on events that haven't resolved themselves yet. Whether the policy of democraticization has blunted the rush to madness -- Egyptian blogger the Big Pharaoah thinks Middle East democracy boosts Islamists; whether Iran will acquire the bomb; whether Israel will draw its sword to prevent it; whether Syria's ruling dynasty will fall; whether Europe will break out of its demographic death-spiral. Because success relies so much on the exploitation of contingent events it's a dangerous time for America to be divided, with one side unsure of whether any real danger besides BushchimpHitler exists and the other in the grip of a half-articulated policy; both almost fatalistically slouching towards a future where there are no certain or even probable endings.
Update
The White House sent out this press release on January 24th.
QUESTION: Madame Secretary, Minister, in two days we're going to be having elections in the Palestinian territories in which the militant group Hamas is expected to do very well and quite possibly enter the government. My question is: Can the United States and the European Union accept and work with a Palestinian government that includes members of Hamas?
SECRETARY RICE: The first point that I'd like to make is that I think it will be a great day for the Palestinian people to engage in elections. They are in a transition to the creation of a basis for a democratic state and we look forward to supporting their efforts.
There are certain realities. The United States has -- Hamas is a terrorist group from the policies of the United States and it is a group that does not recognize the existence of Israel and it is a group that has not renounced violence and the problem, of course, is a very practical problem. In addition to the fact that the United States won't change its policies toward Hamas, the practical problem is that the Palestinian leadership in the roadmap is committed to a renunciation of violence, committed to dismantling terrorist organizations, committed to a peaceful road.
It probably goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway, that it's hard to have negotiations with a party that you do not recognize its right to exist. And so if we indeed do want a path to peace between Israel and the Palestinian people, it is going to have to be one in which Palestinians and any Palestinian government is committed to a peaceful path.
I might also add that this has been said by the Palestinian Authority President on a number of occasions that there has to be one authority and one gun. And as said by the Quartet that it is not possible to have -- I'm paraphrasing but -- one foot in terrorism and the other foot in politics. It simply doesn't work.
posted by wretchardthecat at 1/26/2006 01:40:00 AM
55 Comments:
We're entering a 'come as you are hell'....
Iranian actions are not insane.... just ultra risk....
The hour glass is virtually empty.
1914 redux....
We are at a tipping point.
Iran is staring at the abyss and sees a mirage.
Technical developments are so far ahead of publicity.
Iranian actions imply that they are being tipped.
The sitzkrieg is about to end.
The election of Hamas is to some degree a vote against Fatah corruption. One of the chief electoral spoils will be the billions of dollars in international money that have over the years, gone into creating what in the end turned out to be hateful to everyone. In that sense it was a vote against the last 15 years of nonsense. The political investments in Yasser Arafat, which included warm receptions at the White House, the Nobel Peace Prize, half a century of international aid. Oslo. All of that may have been buried today, though it I wouldn't be surprised if those whose international careers depended on it try to resurrect it in zombie-like fashion to totter around in a putrefied state for as long as it can be kept going.
ah... what a wonderful morning!
The jew hating/murdering autocratic government of the palestinians have been replaced with a democratic jew hating/murdering government!
now here is the funny...
before: italian 1000 suited jew hating murderers
now: green bed sheeted jew hating murderers
becareful what you wish for, cause ya might get it..
hamas will lead! death to israel! oh, btw israel please dont turn off our water or power to the gaza strip... please let our people have jobs in the zionist enemy, just as long as we can grow strong to kill you...
no really folks, this is a good day, the HONEST jew hating murderers have been elected!
Hey Adolf! your back! Mr Hitler did you win your seat? (really folks)
" a dangerous time for America to be divided, with one side unsure of whether any real danger besides BushchimpHitler exists and the other in the grip of a half-articulated policy; both almost fatalistically slouching towards a future where there are no certain or even probable endings."
Mr Moti (11:37 AM) in the previous thread needs the attention of Dr Sanity.
Compare his descriptions of the police state powers of GWB with her description below:
THE POLITICAL PARANOIA OF THE LEFT - Part I
...Of course, calling someone "paranoid", or insinuating that they have a "paranoid style" is definitely pejorative. Being paranoid has, as Hofstadter notes, "a greater affinity for bad causes than good ones." This is primarily because the paranoid--even when their cause has some merit
--is actually trying to delude himself about some inner reality at the expense of, or detriment to, the cause.
Their motivation is no longer about the cause anymore; it is about protecting themselves from an unpleasant reality that is making them question their foundations.
Any who oppose the "equality of outcome" logic are descibed as "racist".
Those who disagree with them are "trying to shut down free speech" (watch and see whose behavior actually physically attempts to silence others).
Those who point out the errors in their thinking are "evil".
American society--arguably the freest and most tolerant in the world--becomes the source of all oppression and evil.
This growing attitude condensed itself into an insane and irrational hatred for one man who came to symbolize their worst fear -- that their image of themselves was no longer true, but had become a well-loved and cultivated delusion.
SixDaysMore#1 said...
"The problem is that the White House has tied itself to a simplistic "democracy" brand in an attempt to justify several theateres of a global conflict that they still refuse to define properly, let alone communicate a sound strategy."
---
Uh, hasn't the "Belmonteer Consensus" tm tied itself to this view?
Discuss and defend.
Six More Days,
The relationship between the West and the Palestinian proto-state has been unnatural in that it paid or supplied most of the services that the Palestinian state ought to have provided in the first place. This not only contributed to corruption but relieved the Palestinian political parties of the burden of good governance. It was never necessary to collect garbage or build roads and the political parties were free, like teenagers supported by indulgent parents, to leave their rooms dirty while they raised hell.
Now some will argue that the Palestinian Authority was in no position to do this due to Israeli occupation. But now that they've got some territory and a government that excuse will be thin.
More is expected of America than to "do business" with the PA in the same way it does with other countries. It will not be enough to desist from invasion and to observe international usages. What is expected is to keep paying their bills.
I think the implicit expectation will be to keep the money -- a.k.a. the peace process -- flowing to Hamas. Failure to do this will be described as "punishing the Palestinians" for exercising their democratic rights. But where is it written that one country must underwrite another? But we have the precendent of the last decade and it will be cited.
-I think the implicit expectation will be to keep the money -- a.k.a. the peace process -- flowing to Hamas. Failure to do this will be described as "punishing the Palestinians" for exercising their democratic rights. But where is it written that one country must underwrite another? But we have the precendent of the last decade and it will be cited.
586 million a year from the eu alone.. now it's time for the false construct of palestine to fail.. after all please remind me why a death cult people that makes nothing cept human bombs should be rewarded? (at the expense of law abiding westerners that obey normal human values)
from the daily kos: about the hamas win
.........Such a friend of democracy, eh?
"Nah, we won't wait to see an emergence of a democratic Palestine. We'll just demonize them and stop any sort of dialouge that might occur before it does. They actually might turn out being not the devils we eagerly want to portray them as. Better not give them a chance to make fools of us yet again."
American style democracy: Shoot your mouth of first and not listen later.
Restore Democracy! Denounce the GOP (George Orwell's Party)!
by high5 on Thu Jan 26, 2006 at 05:30:24 AM PDT
is this what they call a helpful idiot? let's not judge hamas by the murder of over 600 israelis and dont forget the THOUSANDS of wounded and maimed, let us withhold judgement and support all political expression that is democratic....
I cant wait for all balding fat white men to democratically enact rules to force thin cheerleaders to date us...
majority rules, that is democracy~
"please remind me why a death cult people that makes nothing cept human bombs should be rewarded?"
---
I can't recall.
Sorry.
"So easy in WWII, so inconceivable now..."
---
Any number of Churchill or FDR speeches bring the same goosebumps of wishful nostalgia that Zell Miller's great speech did.
Hey!
It's 3:30 am in Hawaii!
Wuss!
The question is, what does it take for the administration to admit its mistakes, communicate some painful truths, define a strategy and follow a course of action ?
why is this a mistake? maybe GWB realized that the best way to expose the 2 facedness of islam/the arab world was to push for democratic reforms, now the genie is out of the bottle, the palestinians have choosen war over peace...
to the victor goes the spoils... or as i like to say, eat sand morons, cut off all water and power to gaza now. if the palestinians are committed to israel's destruction fine, no more western medicine to palestine... time for darwin to take over...
"...one foot in terrorism and the other foot in politics."
Hey SECSTATE! You just described Yasser Arrafat's Kleptocracy! And that worked, didn't it? Just ask the Democrats and Europeans....
"to the victor goes the spoils... or as i like to say, eat sand morons, cut off all water and power to gaza now."
---
Unnecessarily Cruel:
As we say to the "Native Hawaiians" activists:
(welfare drifters paid to go to college ...or teach it.)
OK, it IS your water:
Build the pipes,
the treatment plants,
the power stations,
...and etc.
(and fend off the Japs while you're at it)
It was argued that by unilaterally withdrawing from Gaza and withdrawing behind a wall, Israel was simplifying a complex problem, making it easier to solve. Yet because the problem was regional, not just local, Sharon's move also introduced new variables into the system. Hamas' electoral victory affects the fortunes of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq. That's why it is world and not local news.
The other way to simplify the problem, a scheme near and dear to some hearts, is to eliminate Israel. By jettisoning Israel (the "shitty little country") it could be argued that the whole knot could be disentangled. Yet a moment's thought would make it plain that the resulting chaos from Israel's hypothetical destruction would have incalculable, even fatal consequences as far away as Europe.
In retrospect it seems unlikely that diplomats hoped for more than to gain time by propping up the monster Arafat. The peace plans of the last decade could not be seriously expected to work because they never answered the question of how to bring the extremely powerful transnational gangs in the region under control except to hope that they would go away.
"The peace plans of the last decade could not be seriously expected to work because they never answered the question of how to bring the extremely powerful transnational gangs in the region under control except to hope that they would go away. "
---
"Their motivation is no longer about the cause anymore; it is about protecting themselves from an unpleasant reality that is making them question their foundations."
- Dr. Sanity
Painting a zebra will not transform it into a horse.
Seems that the Palistinians have voted for an "uncorrupt" War. Certainly not the first time people have chosen, from my perspective, poorly.
At some point one side or the other, in the Mohammedan Wars, will have win.
The Side that can plainly state it's Goals is the Side that will, over time, prevail. If US Goals are not articulated, they will never be achieved.
I truely doubt that a Palisinian Authority ruled by Hamas was ever part of the US Goal. But you never know, we will not let US know our Goals.
Hamas states it will not negotiate with the Israelis, the Israelis concur.
"By the way has Sharon died or is he still alive?"
---
Dan,
In a coma.
Same as that Persian guy says he wants to do to all the folks in Israel.
Maybe Warfarin will be the latest WMD?
Fatah is/was useless in moving the process forward, but "The Devil You Know"?
nonsense... fatah was wanking our puds.. hamas is honest at it's genocidal hatred of all things hebraic. all fatah did was give us designer dressed lying twofaced jew haters, now we have simple, honest jew haters. as for moving the process forward, fatah did NOTHING to further the peace process, he refused to disarm one bullet from ANY group, including his own.
please finish the fence, pass the pork rinds and let the palestinians start "relating"* to one another
*relating: a new term to describe the usage of tnt or blackpowder to liquidate your opponent's house, business, son, wife or child over important matters such as how green is your hamas ball cap...
lookin forward tot he fake people "palestinians" self destruct... watch for a return to "islamic peoples of the world unite" crap...
it seems this in fact is my greatest hope, hamas will destroy PALESTINIAN statehood...
Hadnt thought about the Bibi angle. Very true.
It appears that the US has now found its new 'frontier', and is face to face with its new red indians (unruly tribes whose rowdy young men make a practice of raiding and killing whatever Americans they can get at to bolster their self-esteem).
Already the marines refer to Iraq and afghanistan as "indian country''. Chirac seems to be realizing that this time around this is not a uniquely American issue.
The indian tribes in America never did for the most part either modernize their culture or control the aggression of their young men. It's possible that some cultures just won't, even over the long term.
America's response to the North American indians, confining them to reservations and in many instances in the end wiping them out, is a precedent arabs should but don't seem ready to ponder.
There were many Americans who objected to what was done to the indians at various times and on various grounds, but in the end all the objections foundered against the evidence that the indians' behavior reflected what they really were.
The arabs still have time, but it is beginning to run out.
What the Indians really were was
"In the way"
Just wait 'til it's decided to take the "Oil".
Not until then will the Mohammedans be back to goat herding, the Natural Resources taken away from them and divvied up ammongst the rest of the Players.
Victory or Defeat
Now or Later
meme:
The US gov't is still making monthly bribe money to keep the indian population doped. How long has it been? The longest playing welfare racket on earth.
Hamas owes its very existence to one thing: hatred of Jews. To think that Condi & crowd can change their constitution is fantasy.
That they have been elevated to power on their reservation indicates the incompatibility of their Arab/muslim worldview with democracy.
This is the end of the fiction that terrorism is localizable; that it was possible to have one campaign against the Taliban in limited reaction for 9/11. The Hamas victory may have a ripple effect on Egypt and possibly Jordan. It's one big connected problem. Say what one will about OIF, but it got the US 3 years of experience it didn't have in exactly the right theater of operations, right in the fault line between the Shi'ite and Sunni schism.
I was listening on the radio to the turnover of security duties to Iraqi forces in one of the northeastern provinces when the coverage switched to the Hamas story. The UN camps in Gaza are over fifty years old. Comparing the results of three years and fifty I couldn't help wondering which endeavor represented the real folly.
We must have messed up here, WRT the meaning of democratic elections. 80% turnout! Unbelievable, just like Saddam's elections.
Voting does not a democratic election make. It's like the Vampires running against the Werewolves. One party runs on the plank of sucking the lifeblood out of the population for 40 years, allowing them just subsistance, while funding all sorts of intimidation; and banking the rest. The other party is more viscious and intimidating, eating only the souls of its adherents, while every other form of atrocity is okay, encouraged and appreciated.
The outcome cannot be considered a democratic election, can it? Can it?
pork rinds:
1. Didn't the EU withhold something like 40 million euros from the Palestinians just before the election? Couldn't the US use this Hamas victory as a way to further financially isolate the Palestinians?
BONUS QUESTION: Is withholding good or bad for the problem?
2. "'Denounce the GOP (George Orwell's Party)!'" Ah, if only it were the party of Orwell, the man who posited that if every man would kill a single fascist, the problem would be solved. I nearly did a spittake.
Apparently irony is not a subject taught in Liberal institutions! Daily Kos, an irony free universe.
Not to mention the hundreds of millions of Indian monies, held in Trust by the Federals, that is lost and cannot be accounted for.
The Big White Father took responsibility for the Indians and then wants to blame them for outcome.
Each tribe is a different from another as night is from day, just as Palistinians are different from Israelis or Frenchmen differ from Texans.
The long term suffering of the Indian Peoples can be laid directly on Washington DC's door step. They designed & managed it.
You can paint the indian issue in any tones you like, and there will be some merit in many of the different portraits. No human endeavor is ever close to being perfect.
At the end of the day the 'tribal' issue has always come down however to one question, whatever the other rights and wrongs: if you keep on raiding us we will pen you up or wipe you out. The indians kept on raiding until they could no longer raid, as was their culture (they raided each other regularly before we arrived). There have been many other cultures like this before, they are for the most part just not around any more. Europe as we know it only exists because the Romans wiped out e.g. one third of the entire population of Gaul.
It is worth noting that Julius Caesar conquered Gaul twice, the first time ceasing hostilities on the basis that the Gauls were defeated and would turn to peaceful pursuits, the second (and far more deadly) time after it became clear large elements of their population would not do so.
I think if we’re to believe in democracy at all we must be willing to suffer the consequences when political-terrorist organizations are popularly elected. For those of us who have known that the Palestinians were ‘scorpions’ it should come to little surprise, but for the Europeans who were convinced otherwise, this may be shocking news.
Again I think we can be glad that democracy is working in Palestine. The United States is hamstrung on the Iranian issue for precisely the fact that the Mullahs are unpopular and, it would seem, that the peoples will has been thwarted. Palestine prayers have been answered in Hamas. I know for myself, I will not have a shred of regret when they, the Palestinian people, are bombed into the Stone Age, alright, into something before the Stone Age.
So will Hamas change its’ stripes and embrace the opportunity for peace or does the Road-Map lead to a dead end? As is so often told, the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. We’ll see.
Ultimately this is a good thing. If Hamas does change it's stripes, great. If it doesn't, which is vastly more likely, cut off any aid. And Israel will respond to provocations aggressively, as the post-Sharon government is not going to be less conservative than he was.
The big question is what are the other Arab nations going to do, specifically Jordan and Egypt?
Wretchard wrote:
"...America to be divided, with one side unsure of whether any real danger besides BushchimpHitler exists and the other in the grip of a half-articulated policy"
This is a false dichotomy, though it may actually be true given the low level of the current political actors in the US. The real debate, is, or should be, are our responses appropriate? In short, they aren't.
The Israeli/Palestinian history can be instructive for us in helping us understand how to respond to events related to religion and Islam. In a nutshell you have two people laying centuries old claims to a God given piece of land. We have descended into the abyss where the radical positions hold sway over the majority of the two populations. As Sharon stated, the palis/arabs know that he has the 'cred' to make a deal, well, now the Israelis should look at the mirror image and ponder that Hamas has the 'cred' to make a deal, or, they will continue the spiral into the abyss unless one side completes a genocide on the other, which will leave them in abyss.
How is this to be instructive for US and our dealings with similar intractable conflicts of ideology. I propose a place to start is to take notice of the failure of the "if you hit me I'll hit you back harder" approach. Even the superior military power (in this case Israel) has failed to make headway and now must hunker down behind the cirlce wagons (ok, its a wall...er...fence).
rboggs
If you believe that the Canadians voted against Mr Martin, not For Mr Harper, well then you could believe that the Palistinians voted for the Uncorruptable Hamas. That Mohammedan Terror Group that President Carter compared to Mr Menahem Begin's start as an Etzel Commander in Israeli politics.
From Terrorist to Peacemaker.
There, I think, the analogy crashes into the reality of Mohammedism.
Wretchard wrote:
"But where is it written that one country must underwrite another?'
It is written on the very confused heart of the Bush doctrine. If we are going to assist the development of impoverished Muslim states in there "inevitable" ascension to liberal democracy, then we are going to have to fund their infrastructure and "reconstruction". Otherwise this historically madated project could collapse into anarchic poverty and jihadism. This is worse than "half-articulated" this is a deeply liberal belief in social engineering. Why have so many weak-minded psuedo-conservatives embraced this radical policy for so long?
Perhaps because in the absence of Iraqi WMD, the Bush administration sought political space by adopting their opponent’s agenda. An agenda that goes back from Bill Clinton’s 1994 State of the Union to Woodrow Wilson and even Leon Trotsky. For these short term tactical gains, conservatism has sold out its deeply held principles.
bobal:
Yet another shortsighted welfare program.
The BIA took a largely defeated race and stripped them of whatever pride that remained.
Now the DoA is doing the same for the American farmer/rancher.
You should resist.
recon,
I haven’t embraced the concept of ‘Nation-Building’ and I don’t think most conservatives have. Iraq is a special case because it represents the unfinished business of the Bush I administration. If we invaded Basra and pummeled the regime into the dirt it would have been up to the ‘International-Community’ to pick up the pieces. The concern that Iraq would fall into the hands of Iran was a good sell back then but kicking the can down the road gave us 12 years of Saddam’s genocide and the rise of a truly fascist regime in Iran. The stakes are higher than ever. If Iran crosses the Rubicon there will be no nation building. One could hope quite the opposite, who threatens Iran now?
There is sweet irony in that Hamas now will have to be responsible for the mundane such as trash collection. It will be responsible for taxes, economic growth and will have to occupy municipal buildings.It will have to satisfy expectations of the electorate. It will have to put up or shut up. Those in the West that think democracy is the answer will get to watch "sausage being made". It should be entertaining.
bobalharb:
Folks like Medved, Prager, Dr. Laura, and many others contend there is a direct relationship between how much one is a practicing Jew and their support of Israel as well as "right wing Christian" politics here.
Liberal Jews tend to be Jews in name only, and have a long legacy of using it in the victimology game.
Dave Horowitz's father, Commie tho he was, refused to play that game.
The commies and the fake "Jews" wanted to portray his firing as motivated by Anti-Semitism.
Being an honest man he refused to go along and simply told the truth:
He was fired for being a Communist.
Now you owe me ;-)
What's the gist of
"Black Elk Speaks" ?
...in the context you refered to.
Walking among humans for the full 40 years prophesied of Him (Micah 7:15), the Lord of Hosts revealed to humankind the Love of God and the Knowledge of God for this Day, a Day of Fulfillment and Fruition, no longer a Day of Anticipation or Prophecy.
For the sake of developing an insight, consider that IF He brought LOVE and KNOWLEDGE, and IF the Iranians chose to follow instead their imams and mullahs, THEN the Iranians of today are mired in their LACK of LOVE (hatred) and LACK of KNOWLEDGE (ignorance)!
Even more to the point, the Lord of Hosts predicted a terrible suffering would be visited upon the Iraqi and Iranian peoples, because they have chosen to be 'bereft of discernment to see ... with their own eyes...'
Divine retribution? Maybe.
Suffering and massive pain brought on by their 'leaders' belligerence and genocidal hatred? Perhaps.
Iranians responsible for 'tasting what your own hands have wrought'? Precisely!
Bob al Harb, Black Elk was also speaking during the time when the Lord of Hosts was walking among mankind, 1853-1892. Black Elk spoke of his vision of the True-White Brother, and the blind, paranoid and racist whites of the time INTERPRETED this to mean 'Black Elk says HE is the Promised One', and started a pogrom-campaign to wipe out the circular 'Spirit Dances' then so popular among Plains Indians.
The coming of Baha'u'llah did not go unnoticed around the world, and in fact His coming was under the full glare and scrutiny of history, when God Passes By.
Annoy Mouse said...
"recon,
I haven’t embraced the concept of ‘Nation-Building’ and I don’t think most conservatives have. Iraq is a special case because it represents the unfinished business of the Bush I administration."
Ah, well then, it seems the exception does flow from the rule. Did the "special case" require a suspension of disbelief on your part, a sudden leap of faith in the efficacy of nation-building? Towards what sort of regime or government is that nation being built? As to most conservatives, I would argue, from the Weekly Standard, to the National Review, to the convention halls of the GOP, that most "conservative" adherents did reverse course and principle and embrace Clintonian nation-building. What else would one call our liberal social engineering efforts in Afghanistan, Iraq and Gaza?
AM said:
"If we invaded Basra and pummeled the regime into the dirt it would have been up to the ‘International-Community’ to pick up the pieces. The concern that Iraq would fall into the hands of Iran was a good sell back then but kicking the can down the road gave us 12 years of Saddam’s genocide and the rise of a truly fascist regime in Iran. The stakes are higher than ever. If Iran crosses the Rubicon there will be no nation building. One could hope quite the opposite, who threatens Iran now? "
It's late and I'm having a bit of trouble fully following the gist of your argument here. Do you mean if "we" had invaded Basra in '91? And overthrew which regime, Saddam or the SCIRI/Shiite/Iranian uprising in Basra? If we occupied Iraq (Basra?) in '91, in what ways would the situation have been so different? Wouldn't the political climate have been worse with a full-fledged Khomeneist rebellion in the South? If I extrapolate correctly from your last sentence then it would seem that you surmise that it was a mistake to remove the greatest threat from Iran: Saddam Hussein. Is that what you are saying?
whit:
Ottolenghi makes some good points but maybe gives them too much credit. Do you think their strategy was really to remain a second-place minority?
The biggest suprise would be if they constrained their exuberant jihadists long enough from attacking the next-door neighbors, whom they have vowed to exterminate, to actually receive criticism for poor governance.
We are watching the Bush's liberal doctrine of democratic globalism collapse into babbling idiocy. So in castigating Hamas, the United States now refuses to negotiate with Islamist parties with an "armed wing"?! Just what then are we doing trying to bring Sunni parties into the Iraqi government? If the President is unaware that Mutlak and his kin are playing a very obvious game of political participation AND insurgency then someone needs to puncture his bubble and tell him quickly. And while doing so, perhaps they could also inform him of the armed wings of the Shiite Islamist parties who have once again captured the majority of seats in the Iraqi parliament. Is democratic globalism as practiced by a "conservative" administration half-articulated or simply half-baked?
whit,
And soon to be added to that list, the fracture and dismantlement the Persian Jihadi Empire.
This actually is an interesting variation. If the Kurds in what today is Iran, Syria, Iraq, and possibly Turkey, decide to create a unified political entity, you'd have another beachhead from which to advance on Jihadism. One that I think would have a much sturdier cultural foundation to that purpose than that found in trinational Iraq.
Karensky,
That's not a game for me to play. Ultimately it's a decision the Kurds will have to make. I'm just pointing out that the possibility for such a variation is there.
BTW, my ancient resurrected people played a much riskier game, and they're doing ok. Certainly better than the those 6 million that had to take their chance on european hospitality.
Here comes the plea for money, right on schedule, and from Jimmy
Carter, too.
Jimmy Carter urged the world community to give to the Palestinians. Jimmy also asked the terrorist organization Hamas to "Act Responsibly"
"The Palestinian Government is destitute, and in desperate financial straits. I hope that support for the new government will be forthcoming," Carter said at a Jerusalem press conference.
He added that if international law barred donor countries from directly funding a Hamas-led government than the US and the EU should bypass the Palestinian Authority and provide the "much-needed" money to the Palestinians via non-governmental channels such as UN agencies.
Will it be the limited democracy of the Swiss, British, and USA - or the unfettered democracy of Periclean Athens and the Dutch of the 16th century?
On the one hand, Hamas is dedicated to the destruction of Isreal, but on the other hand, no on can claim that they are corrupt or ineffective at governing.
Like anything else, once people live under Sharia for a while, they come to hate it as they did in Iran and in Afghanistan - and also in Saudi Arabia. To have a free Isreal and Lebanon and Jordan nearby will lead people to question Sharia.
The key is to let Hamas overstep its bounds as all extremists are wont to do.
From the previous thread, too Classic for anyone to miss.
We should pay Moti for the entertainment.
-----------------------------
iotm said...
Ho hum, I challenge your arguments, I get insults in response.
You complain that "leftists" do this to your authoritarian heroes, yet you're the ones guilty of it, and being completely amoral, you having no concept of universal standards of behaviour, you prefer to live by your code of double standards where everything you do is right and everything the other does is wrong, even if you're both doing the exact same thing.
CBC had a poll yesterday of Conservative voters, only 41% voted for them because they actually agreed with the Conservative policies, which would make the average Democrat in the US scoff them off as "commies".
Of course the realm of facts is dead to this lot, science is evil.
I also find it amusing that most of the comments here wreak of teen angst and cynism.
Of a fundamental ignorance of how the world works, all you know is yourself.
So the question needs to be asked, what's your excuse if you aren't really teenagers?
(Yeah! -ed)
Teens can blame it on their wild changes in body chemistry.
What's your excuse?
You also seem utterly terrified of entering into any kind of actual debate with anyone who actually can argue your points effectively.
I challenged wretchard to a debate on god, he cowered in fear.
I occasionally come across this page, post a comment, and I get insulted.
Are you really that insecure in your beliefs that you're afraid to allow them to face scrutiny?
Wretchard:
Yes, President Carter may be the most consistantly wrong man on foreign politics for Americans. If I were President Bush, my foreign policy would be: Get Jimmy's opinion and then do the opposite. Maybe I'll run on that.
Trish,
Mr Abu Aardvark gets pretty wound up, but to no avail imo.
As we have discussed here, the Palestinians are a special lot, being on the Dole for generations, Television's favorite victims, etc etc.
To say that they are representative of much of anything other than themselves is not productive, anymore than it would be accurate in any meaningful way to equate 3rd and 4th generation welfare wards with Black Families of the 1940's.
whit said...
"reocon:
You see incompetence and failure where others see outstanding results considering how badly things could have gone. Saddam deposed, Syria is out of Lebanon, Assad will soon be out of Syria, Arafat was marginalised, Iran is panicking the Euros, Libya is not a threat. These are huge developments but I guess the Bush administration simply blundered it's way to this point."
No, no, no! I am more than willing to credit the President with his successes: in particular Libya and the toppling of the Taliban (courtesy of CIA maven Cofer Black). What I am objecting to is the wisdom, principle and practice of nation-building and democratic globalism. Even if you are a liberal and embrace these policies you can not be satisfied with Bush’s implementation of them. (Wretchard has done such good work of corruption in the UN OFF, where is the commentary of the US’s gross mismanagement of Iraqi reconstruction?) Yes, Saddam has been toppled and now we are the inheritors of a failing Islamic state. Three of the five judges in Hussein’s trial have been replaced and this chaos and ineptitude is synechdotal of the nation: it can not get its act together to credibly try the tyrant.
If your going to critique my comment you should at least address its substance. Just how credible do YOU think the President is when he refuses to deal with Hamas – because of it armed wing – while simultaneously negotiating with Sunni parties in Iraq that are actively killing Americans? Watching Bush trying to explain this policy yesterday leads me to believe that he is indeed "blundering". That, Sir, is Bush’s democratic globalism in all its internal contradictions.
I tend to agree with reocn, but I'd call it stumbling forward, not blundering.
I think the Bush Admin has no real Goal to it's Policies. They are moving in a Direction, but towards no defined Objective.
As Mr Cheney puts it "victory cannot be achieved", well, "not for Decades", anyway.
What baloney. If they only had the WILL to define Victory, the US would achieve it, quickly.
But it took three years to decide to study if the Enemy had an ideology that COULD BE tied to their theology. (aristide's link from last month)
I think Trish estabishes that Bush's commitment to democracy is deeply held. I just find it ironic that the our most prominent attempts to encourage democracy has been a most 'undemocratic' method; warfare. Is it any wonder the average Pali observing recent events unfolding in the region says "ya, go Hamas!!"?
I didn't read what Jimmy Carter said, but reading Wretchard and others knee jerk reaction I am concerned that an opportunity will be lost here. If we simply go uggg Hamas, no talk, no nothing, similar to Benjamin Netanyahu's response (unilateral withdrawal has led to Hamas rise, we appear weak ect.) then we shall miss a chance to engage the poles of the conflict and help them reach an accomadation.
It does look like Palestine has indeed shot its self… at least in the foot.
I’m more concerned about the inevitable hoo-haa taking our time and attention away from Iran. Iran play the stalling game grasping for time to finish building their nukes.
Also I heard they spread their building of nukes in various bunkers under their kindi’s and hospitals is this actually true?
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