East of Gaza
"Clinton warns of rising anti-Islamic feeling" -- that's the lead in a Yahoo! News article quoting Agence Press France. The incident former President Clinton refers to is the caricature of Mohammed by cartoonists in a Danish Newspaper.
"So now what are we going to do? ... Replace the anti-Semitic prejudice with anti-Islamic prejudice?" he said at an economic conference in the Qatari capital of Doha.
"In Europe, most of the struggles we've had in the past 50 years have been to fight prejudices against Jews, to fight against anti-Semitism," he said.
Clinton described as "appalling" the 12 cartoons published in a Danish newspaper in September depicting Prophet Mohammed and causing uproar in the Muslim world.
"None of us are totally free of stereotypes about people of different races, different ethnic groups, and different religions ... there was this appalling example in northern Europe, in Denmark ... these totally outrageous cartoons against Islam," he said.
Here's what the fuss is about.
Palestinian
gunmen take over EU office to protest Danish cartoons
Danish paper apologizes over Prophet cartoons
‘Deal with Danish offenders strongly’
And so on. I think the Big Pharaoh's view on the issue is somewhat better than former President Clinton's.. He hates the cartoons but doesn't think anyone has the right to forcibly suppress them.
Muslims have the right to protest against the newspaper by writing emails and boycotting it. However, they should not demand that it issues an apology or expect the Danish government to implement some sort of censorship on the paper. In addition, they have the right to boycott Danish products, yet I find this so naive because it only shows how ignorant they are of the mechanics of a developed country where you can disagree with what someone says yet defend his/her right to say it even if what is being said is so outrageous and inflammatory. Besides, what if a single newspaper in all European countries published those 12 cartoons. Will we boycott Europe?!
The Jyllands-Posten case is one of those cases that you hate yet you cannot do anything about it. I really wish it hadn't published such terrible cartoons. Even if the case highlighted something in Denmark (the editor said “the cartoons were a test of whether the threat of Islamic terrorism had limited the freedom of expression in Denmark), it only widened the huge current gulf between Islam and the West. Muslims around the world believe that the Westerners have nothing to do except plotting against Islam. The Jyllands-Posten case gave us another reason to believe this myth.
I can't end the post without saying: when will we grow up?? The Da Vinci Code did not harm Christianity, 12 cartoons won't harm Islam either!!
Commentary
Zombietime's coverage of the Save Tookie Williams demonstrations features a couple of leftist girls doing a sacramental song and dance they somehow felt appropriate to the occasion of the execution. The words went like this: "We use these hands to touch our clits; we like to come, that's no shit!" No shit, Sherlock. Those of us who are used to leftist ritual, whether they be invitations to listen the Vagina Monologues, offers to sniff at the sacred Chocolate Factory or worship at the altar of infant sacrifice; we the people who have become inured to Robert Mapplethorpe and Piss Christ have come to accept the existence of evil as the necessary consequence of freedom.
And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food;
the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
But with that acceptance comes the unceasing struggle to stand on the side of angels when one might cross to the devils. Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom in more ways than one, and its principal battlefield is the human heart. We can tolerate the presence of evil in our midst only if we are prepared to cleave to the good. There was a time this foolish and ugly religion of the Left could have been laughed to scorn; but no longer. We have our Garden still, though we can hardly see it for the weeds.
posted by wretchardthecat at 1/30/2006 10:46:00 PM
50 Comments:
Mine God went through how many cartoons.So went Christ.Constant attacks by ACLU.Why ACLU is not attacking islam in USA.They are afraid of beheading.How this they can expect from religion of peace.Guantanamo is feeding war criminals with conformation of food to their religion.
I would cut Qurans into toilet.paper,food made of anything we eat.99.99% will eat that food when they are well hungry.I do not mean this as punishment,just to show them what they may expect from us if their behaviour toward us do not conform to what we expect from people we coming into contact with,looking through filter of their dealing with us.
Dealing should overcome expectations of anybody`s.
I read this:War is good for business and business is America`s business.
I would like this fix some.America is not afraid of business.
Quesitons and no answers
Sons and daughters of the Crescent more upset over cartoons than the ongoing torture of headless-to-be hostages?
Has Monte Python's "The Meaning of Life" been subtitled into Arabic?
Will devout Muslims living in speech-free USA, taking offense at a perceived insult to Allah, finding no redress in civil law, now appeal to Saudi Arabia to apply pressure on the offending civic authorities?
OR
If Muslims find rolling with democratic punches intolerable will they cry to the twisters of the spigots?
Muslims showing more anger over a cartoon than the west shows over the threatened destruction of Israel - Clinton couldn't spare a few words of wrath for the president of Iran?
actually, the cartoons are not that offensive. and the whole point of the exercise was to see if it was still possible to publish free expression in Denmark with out cultural and intellectual terrorism. they managed to prove the point I think... you may NOT discuss Islam in Europe with out adhereing to the Muslim point of view and religious rules on press censorship. Sad. (PS, I am living in Copenhagen right now).
http://onearabworld.blog.com/509451/#cmts
Link to cartoons here:
http://tinyurl.com/9v3g8
This is the first time I've seen them and I'm surprised at how tame they are. Cox and Forkum are just as 'bad'.
Bottom line is all the Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews and about 1.2 billion Chinese DO NOT regard mohammed as a prophet and conduit from God. All these folks think he is anything but a prophet. I suspect many regard him as the first islamic terrorist. So we have muslims telling the rest of us that despite not believing in their prophet and regarding him to be in contradiction of our religion, we do not have the right to satarize him. This coming from cultures of honor killings and clitorectomy? A boycott from Saudi Arabia, offended when they don't even allow their women to drive cars and vote?
I'v often considered Muslims to be the most hypocritical, with their multiple public prayers. They seem to be saying "Look at me. I'm so pious. I'm such a devout person." While their record of abusive behavior demonstrates quite the opposite. Now, I'm convinced they are nothing more than the world's bullies. The only way they can operate is from a position of power and domination.
BTW: what is it with these former Democrat Presidents. They just can't keep their mouths shut after they leave office. Don't they know that they've lost their significance? They really are an embarrassment.
Enscout,
Your are quite correct. Jesus was often found criticizing those who made a big show out of their prayers and how they were keen on following the law.
Many Muslims are completely oblivious to the hypocracy they embody. Big shows about attending mosque and then go back to the tavern and back to class and cheat on the quiz about to be taken. Or deny their son could have thrown stones at the neighbor's car because sonny attends mosque 5x/day.
"So now what are we going to do? ... Replace the anti-Semitic prejudice with anti-Islamic prejudice?"
By all means no. We need to maintain the anti-Semitic prejudice. Besides its’ what we have the most experience at. And the joos don’t need to worry. We are doing everything we can to replace them with heterosexual Western European males.
But don’t worry, offenders will be dealt with just as soon as Islamic Militants threaten innocent aid workers. Does terrorism work? Oh hell yeah, we’ll make it work.
“One of the gunman said that citizens of both countries should not enter Gaza until an apology is made.” Thank you William Jefferson Clinton for answering to the terrorists. Allah is a very sensitive god and will fret if his prophet is depicted by someone in ugly way. Allah don’t put up with no disrespect. Respeto baby. Give it or die… or is it submit or die?
Thanks for the link chthus. Couldn’t see the cartoons otherwise. These cartoons are not offensive. A little childish but what is offensive and unacceptable is terror mongering from Islam. I salute the Dainsh press for not being intimidated by these ignorant swine.
judgementday:
The Belmont Club comments has been pretty open to all kinds. Personally, I prefer people who don't type like a thirteen year old. You know, there's a preview button that keeps you from misspelling, confusing your tenses, and such... Unlike at Kos, most commenters tend to write a bit more stylistically correct. While your position might have merit, the packaging makes you look like a troll.
People generally don't take well to being insulted by someone who doesn't appear to be smart enough to work the Shift key.
judgementday,
You act as if you don't know what this is really about but I think you do. The thing totalitarian rulers fear most is their people. They must keep their people's minds on other things besides the poor conditions in their countries and the lack of freedoms and rights of their people. The political and religious rulers of the Arab and Muslim world seek any opportunity to enrage their populace against the West.
This dust-up is another case where the Muslim rulers wish to attack the West in order to keep their people's minds off conditions at home.
I have looked at the cartoons and they are at best mildly offensive. I will accept though that you and other Muslims are offended by them.
Now you must explain why this matters. Denmark doesn't represent the West. This little magazine doesn't represent Denmark. Did you notice that it was months after the cartoons were published before anyone said anything?
The President of the US has said that Islam is a religion of Peace. He has been photographed holding hands with the King of Saudi Arabia. The US pays out hundreds of millions of dollars a year to the Palastinians and has done so for years. The US saved hundreds of thousands of Muslim lives in Kosovo.
I ask you again: why does this matter? Why do these cartoons make you mad while the actions of the West don't contradict what your rulers are telling you?
You should look to your own corrupt political and religious rulers who seek to turn this mole-hill into a mountain for their own gain.
judgementday:
I'll only give you this advice: keep your eye on those up ahead, riding the lead goat, compelling you to join in the madness.
Just before all hell breaks loose they will head for the bunker. That's when you'll know you've been had.
"Actually, the cartoons are not that offensive..."
The cartoons are drawings. The problem here is that 1) SOME PEOPLE want to take offense (at cartoons, at Koran-handling, at Koran-quoting) because 2) that 'offense' can be used in public and private to pummel and bash people into 3) changing their public/private statements.
Thoughtful, mature people do NOT see or choose to allow YOUR 'feelings' to be the determinant of MY actions.
I am sensitive to and respectful of YOUR feelings, but ultimately, YOUR FEELINGS are under YOUR control, not under the control of some cartoonist somewhere!
Either I have the courage to take a principled stand (Your feelings are YOUR feelings) or I yield to the squalling, whining tantrum WHENEVER and BY WHOMEVER it is displayed in MY realm of perception: (YOUR feelings determine MY actions).
Expressed like that, many leftist, adolescent, Islamo-fascist, neo-nazi and racist rants are exposed as precisely what they are: attempts at bullying (MY FEEWINGS are legitimate and take priority over YOUR actions!)
"Let deeds, not words, be a man's adorning."
Oh, and Judgement Day? " and co exist"?
YOUR LEADERS, and 'imams' and 'mullahs' and mujaheddin and jihadis have been attacking the people liberating Iraq and Afghanistan, (no co-existence!) and shooting schoolchildren (in Beslan!) and ripping the heads off schoolgirls (in Indonesia) and MORE, MUCH MORE, in a manner DESIGNED TO SHOW NO CO-EXISTENCE!
"...in other words we won't rest,
til every one in the West,
is a slave, a Muslim or DEAD!"
'Its in the Koran' on YouTUBE
A couple of posts ago the question was asked--when did all the leftist junk begin. A couple of posters said in the 1960's.
In the child sacrifice category I put in Roe V Wade in the 1973. Similiar legislation was enacted all over the west Japan & china.
I would also put down another incident from that period. That is, the landing on the moon in 1969.
It would take a couple postings and a couple different people to approach the matter. On first pass I would say that men landing on the moon blew the top of the world. It was at that time that the term future shock was first used.
As well, on another list I've been in discussions about cross ocean sailing. Coastal navigation has been around for maybe as much as 50,000 years. But cross ocean sailing has been around for less than 2000 years. A Malay people The Hawaiians arrived in the Hawaiian islands +-500 AD. Spanish maps suggest that they may have wandered through there sometime between 1500 and 1795 when capt cook arrived. the english and the spanish navigated by the stars. But also the Malay people navigated by the stars. How was it that the europeans and the malays happened to learn to navigate by the stars and to arrive at nearly the same time in Hawaii.
imho some celestial event maybe 5-6 millenium ago caused people the world over to look up. One reaction was fear. And the other reaction was wonder.
there are a billion of us...spread all around the world.. and there is nothing you can do about it.
An interesting formulation, on many levels, but not very relevant.
Wretchard's post was a self-critical analysis of Western culture and Western rot, seen through the prism of current events, current statements, and current assumptions. The context is the organized Muslim attack on expressive freedoms as they exist in the West.
Islam, as a culture, is a secondary concern in Wretchard's post. The primary concern is the West's moralizing equivalence in the face of existential dangers.
The topic, rather than being Mohammed, is "freedom of expression," something we are rather well-qualified to talk about since we, in the West, created the notion in the first place.
A lesson your "one billion" could learn is that unpopular speech, in a free expression society, is of the highest value, and therefore should be granted the greatest protection. After all, if the expression is popular, the need for protection diminishes altogether. Therefore, though Muslims may not like it, religious blasphemy is the gold standard of this expressive freedom. You might say our entire society is built on it. It is high art, and serves a noble purpose, precisely because it pisses so many people off.
The West is a rough and tumble world, kemosabe, a place where your feminine sensibilities will be attacked with no hope for quarter. If you can't stand to have your deepest held beliefs questioned, attacked, insulted, and ridiculed, you don't belong here. You belong somewhere else, somewhere that doesn't demand so much restraint.
Welcome to civilization. Should you find it too demanding, there is always Arabia.
back on topic:
Why is it okay for Muslims to boycott the Danes, but not okay for non-Muslims to boycott Palestine?
Since the cattle, I mean citizens, of Europe can't own guns, I guess we don't have to worry about "armed gunmen" storming a Hamas office in Brussels to protest the murder of Europeans by Muslims.
Tolerance is only tolerance when you have the means to STOP tolerating something. A parent is tolerant of a misbehaving child, a slave is not tolerant of his master's beatings. A disarmed populace that refuses to act out of fear of reprisals is not tolerant, they are subservient. All this multiculti, long suffering, tolerance junk is just polishing the turd they have to swallow anyhow.
All of that said, I think the Danes are some of the best people in Europe. I worked for a Danish company, and was pretty impressed with 'em. Also, any country whose Crown Prince is a, by all reports, very competent commando in their Special Forces can't be too wilty. I noticed that most of the "apologies" from both the paper and the government were of the form: "Sorry you don't like it, but it is perfectly legal to publish these cartoons."
Too bad Bubba's out there Monica-ing the Nobel types.
brett l said: Why is it okay for Muslims to boycott the Danes, but not okay for non-Muslims to boycott Palestine?
What would you boycott?
enscout:
You have a point there. They'd have to actually produce something first. I meant it in the figurative sense of stopping aid because we find the "Death to Israel" stuff as offensive as political cartoons featuring The Prophet Mohammed(pbuh).
there are a billion of us...spread all around the world.. and there is nothing you can do about it.
There are five billion of us non-muslims and if you muslims don't start being good neighbors you are going to find out just how very much we CAN do about it.
A**hole.
brett l:
Of course; I just couldn't resist.
One of the contrast between Islam's strict laws and a more liberal justice is the level of tolerance one can (genuinely) bear. I say that knowing that many of the tearful apologies we hear from the jihadis are not genuine but merely stoking the flames.
The amount of vitriol spewed at America's right - those that I liken to the remnant of the old testament - from both the international left and the Islamofascists would have them unnerved if it were turned back on themselves.
Also amazing is the similar behavior exhibited by the two groups (again I refer to the international left and militant Islam).
Religious Policeman blog finds it remarkable that all mosque sermons and *all* editorials in Saudi newspapers have been verbatim the last day or so. He thinks they have been given their marching orders by the Saudi "government" to focus on the "cartoon issue" to deflect everyone's attention to the hundreds of dead pilgrims in this year's stampede du jour at the Big Black Rock.
And if you give a Muslim an opportunity to feel insulted - make the merest little hinted suggestion - the Muslim *will* grab it up, gleefully clutch it to his bosom and be mortally wounded in full victimhood roar, demanding apologies.
I'm still waiting for Saudi Arabia to apologize for unleashing bin Laden on the entire world (including Norway and Denmark), not to mention staffing the 9/11 hijacked planes with male beings of the Saudi persuasion.
State of the Union thoughts:
Over his term, Bush has used the occassion of big speeches to begin large, challenging initiatives. These speeches are a launching point. Look for something big to be launched tonight (Iran comes to mind).
Barone says Bush is like a pulsar. He goes dark for long periods, then all at once bursts forth with a large amount of activity. This strategy tends to knock the Dems off balance, and they end up getting swept away by the momentum.
Bush is a poker player, and holds his cards tight until the right moment. I have a feeling he is about to play a hand.
Another thought:
The nature of our world has greatly augmented the attention that attends this address. Much of what Bush will say will be geared towards this new, international audience.
Reagan proved that words have power. When the President speaks, the world shifts.
"there are a billion of us...spread all around the world.."
Like the jackal, you use fear to intimidate. The weakness of the jackal is arrogance. Arrogance is the downfall of those who subvert the truth. KF:TLC
U-S says Security Council referral of Iran's nuclear program an important step:
But it's not clear what the Council would do. At any rate, it will wait to see what the International Atomic Energy Agency does. It meets Thursday in Vienna and is expected to issue a report on Iran's program soon.
The agency reported today that Tehran has obtained black market documents that have no purpose other than to help build nuclear weapons.
Security Council Referral
How did you tolerate the farcical Clinton for so long? He is approaching the inanity of another poor president of yours, James Carter.
As for the muslims and their hypersensitivity, that is simply too, too bad. They will either learn to coexist, or their culture will turn to dust.
In "Why are we afraid of Islam," I referred to the cowardly leftists who constantly mock Christianity but are afraid to mock Islam.
I asked:
where are our bold blasphemers of Islam? Were is DeDe LaRue’s image of Mohammad as a dog? Where is Serrano’s picture “Piss Islam?” Where are the images of Mohammad using elephant dung as the medium? I’ll tell you: they are hiding under their beds. The desperate little cowards are in deadly fear of offending a religion that takes blasphemy seriously.
In church last Sunday I was struck by the fact that I was arguing for the wrong end-result. Those who mock and blaspheme any religion are juvenile. If DeDe LaRue says "People don’t like their religion made fun of--so that’s why I do it." She is expressing a belief that is truly infantile.
Religion is an intensely personal and profound part of many people’s emotional and intellectual life. It is not a fit object for ridicule or blasphemy.
While it is true that moral horrors are being committed in the name of Islam. That is no reason to ridicule Moslems or to insult their religion.
It is perfectly true that those creatures who feel free to mock Christianity are afraid to mock Islam. The objective of our scorn is not to create a whole new category of artists who mock Islam; it is to shame those who mock Christianity into the realization that they are not brave, bold vanguards of humanity, but cringing cowards.
Perhaps the death of Theo Van Gogh will bring a little moral clarity to all the posturing we have seen.
UPDATE:
There is an old story about two poor Russian peasants. Each one had a cow.
One of the cows died and that night, a genie appeared to the peasant who had lost his cow and said: “I’ll grant you one wish.”
The peasant replied: “Kill my neighbor’s cow.”
That is the all-too-human reaction when we are injured. We must think about what is the right thing to do, not what will make the situation worse.
I read your post just now, wretchard, while listening to the State of the Union speech. Thank God for you folks who know how to say the things you say, and who continue holding the line against the chaos always just out there--grinning and sowing those weeds.
Moneyrunner,
You managed to insult two religions in one swell foop. Genies can are a middle eastern myth and can only mean that the story applies to Muslims, additionally, these Muslims must live in Pakistan because if they are trying to kill their neighbors cow, obviously they are trying to insult Hindu’s who worship cows. How dare you tread on a sacred cow!
All seriousness aside, there are traditional aspects to religions that could reasonably attract the criticism of co-religionists as well as non-believers. No matter how sincere the Iranian Mullahs are about the literalism of the Koran, I can’t allow myself to overlook the defilement or marriage of pre-pubescent 9 year old children. Maybe a thousand years ago, I don’t know, but now? And to this day, in Iran, it is the age of consent is 9 years old for girls and 15 years for boys. Same for the death penalty, 9 years for girls, 15 years for boys. It is a religion that has managed to conjure up this human tragedy. Moses was a sage. Jesus was a philosopher of peace, and Mohammad? He was a raider, a murderer, a child molester, and a brigand. But please don’t consider that an insult.
Clinton is a tool. It turns out that Muhammad thinks Denmark Rocks. He likes cartoons too.
Some cartoons aren't offensive so much as open to interpretation. For example, a big green footprint in the West is merely a footprint though it may be an insult among Arabs.
Granted some cartoons of Muhammad may be offensive while others are merely soft and effeminate.
SotU follow-up:
I was wrong.
Any Belmonteers in Vancouver, or those of you interested in the French blue scarf movement to reclaim free speech note our meeting this this Thursday
Go get 'em 'peers--if you can speechify a tenth as well as you write and think, you'll kill the bastids!
JudgementDay,
It appears you are an Arab and definitely English as a Second language.
I have read and commmented the Belmont Club for sometime now and of all the blogs I read I rate the commentators here as the sharpest of all. Just because your little toes are stepped on doesn't mean they know not what they say.
I stand by my comment 100%. I lived on the Arabian Peninsula for six years and saw first hand quite a number of instances where Islam for many of the residents of that land was all show and little else. It was faith but very shallow and thin.
Anyway
Wretchard:
...Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom in more ways than one, and its principal battlefield is the human heart... There was a time this foolish and ugly religion of the Left could have been laughed to scorn; but no longer. We have our Garden still, though we can hardly see it for the weeds.
I agree with Wretchard's basic thrust and his critical view of Western society's lax containment of the radical elements of the left.
Why is the left so brazen? Why have some on the left given aid and comfort to the enemy?
I would guess that the left hates losing power (which, in the USA, they have held for 50 years or so). Further, they believe they can still maintain their iron grip over the media.
It's true that in the USA, on a political basis, it could be possible for to the left to re-take political power given both houses in the legislature are divided almost down the middle. That gives the left hope and makes them desparate. The left has long depended on the MSM to support them. Hence, they pushed the fight into the media.
I suspect that the left will lose more ground because information has migrated toward the Net (the left's oligopoly of the MSM has been degraded).
And, I suspect that many military people and their kin will not forget the blatant disparagement of them and their cause by the leftist media and the leftists politicians. But, the media battle is still in the early stages.
chthus' description of the collision of two ice bergs where contact is below the surface is fairly accurate. When the collision can be seen from the surface we will know more about the entire culture clash.
Brett L's observation is well taken:
Why is it okay for Muslims to boycott the Danes, but not okay for non-Muslims to boycott Palestine?
Since the... citizens, of Europe can't own guns, I guess we don't have to worry about "armed gunmen" storming a Hamas office in Brussels to protest the murder of Europeans by Muslims.
Tolerance is only tolerance when you have the means to STOP tolerating something...
Yes, the physical means to stop aggression is very important - even down to the individual level. I can see why the europeans are frighten. They do not have the defense mechanism to stop aggression at the individual level. They are completely dependant upon their states for defense.
There much more to the situation. But, I will have to discuss that at a later time.
Btw, I have not been able to post on the Belmont Club but because of a switch in computer systems (and the fact I misplaced the blogger password). So for the time being I will have switch to the old system to post at this site.
On bush's state of the Union Address:
He mentioned that some truely astounding advances are going to be made in the field of energy...especially in the hydrogen.
I've been talking about this for awhile.
The same things are going to happen in desalination.
Moneyrunner,
I don't think anyone here is calling for the wanton and senseless insult of Islam just because we can do it in a free and open society. I don't much appreciate the vulgar art created with the intent to offend Christians but I am not going to be hunting them down for slaughter either (however, I do want their support at taxpayer expense to cease).
As a person who has lived among the Muslims I do know that the sincere Muslims are often very upstanding individuals I am proud to have known.
It comes down to an essential element of Western culture. The right to free expression without worry of violent reprecussions.
Free expression, the right to criticize is part and parcel of Western civilization and the modern world. Without it I think Western society would be centuries behind where we are now.
The cartoons IMO are no big deal. Yes, they offend they were bound too, since all "graven images" offend the hardcore Islamicist. The beautiful geometric patterns of Islamic art don't arise because there are no beautiful people or animals in the lands of Islam. However, I see a larger point being raised by the cartoon's creation and it isn't to PO the Muslims but to test the level of freedom of expression in Denmark.
I heard a comment once from an Arab who noted this difference between Israel and Palestine. In PA controlled areas say "Yasser Arafat is a pig" to a PA policeman or soldier and you would be beaten and imprisoned. In Israel say "Ariel Sharon is a pig" to a policeman and you would get in response "Yeah? So tell him yourself!".
The point of what we have been discussion is to what level must we change our society to accomadate Muslim sensitivities? Not change our individual selves, but the societal mores and structures.
One last comment and I'm outta here. Theo Van Gogh does make a person think. But was murder the proper response to the provocation? What the murder did was to lend credibility and attention to what could very well be an awful pack of lies. If Mr. Van Gogh received a letter calling him a donkey and a maker of silly movies we would only Van Gogh the painter not the martyr to free expresion, Ayan Hirsi Ali would still be some minor legislator in the Netherlands.
Bush announces new energy initiative
WASHINGTON, Jan. 31 (UPI) -- U.S. President Bush Tuesday announced the Advanced Energy Initiative as part of a plan to reduce U.S. dependence on foreign oil.
In his State of the Union Address, Bush said incredible advances are in the offing. He proposed a 22-percent increase in clean-energy research to make the breakthroughs that are within reach in the areas of alternative energy sources.
aristedes:
Yes, the SOTU was basically a wash. Nothing good in it unless you're a partisian. While I do admire the artistry of being able to kick your opponents in the nuts four or five times whilst pleading for more civil discourse, I was signifcantly underwhelmed by the Iran section. And don't even get me started on the domestic side!
charles:
If you care to, follow my blogger id to my blog, where I've analyzed some of the claims Bush is selling. It ain't as simple as they claim.
The ACLU is a special case, Milan, an organization controlled and funded largely by liberal Jews who gleefully bash and attack elements of Christianity but are intimidated into not just silence but overt support of "GITMO detainee rights" and "precious enemy civil liberties".
Cedarfard,
Any links to back this up?
You and your Jooish Link Trick again!
Marcus Aurelius,
Thank you for your response. But I beg to differ. We – and I consider myself among that group – have been conditioned by current popular thought to consider degradation of religious images and the ridiculing of religious people as the inevitable accompaniment of freedom of speech and expression. There was a name for it, an old fashioned name: blasphemy.
The preacher last Sunday morning was speaking about the issue of one’s “world view.” Perhaps it takes someone of a certain age to appreciate the fact that the current view is just that, it’s relatively new. I grew up in an age that includes a period of time before Playboy magazine; a time when the Pledge and a morning prayer in school was still allowed. This was not a time of religious persecution. This was not a time of religious repression. In fact, religious expression was arguably freer than it is today.
What was not accepted was the celebration of that old word: blasphemy. Oh, sure, it existed, just as pornography existed, but just as pornography had to be sought out and sold surreptitiously; the desecration of religious symbols was not celebrated in museums.
That was the insight that made me do a u-turn with regard to the desecration of Islamic symbols. I do not want the cretins who defile Christian symbols to begin to defile the symbols of Islam. I want them to stop defiling all religious symbols.
That having been said, do I think the cartoons depicting Mohammed are blasphemous? I’m trying to put myself in the place of a Moslem. Let’s substitute the image of Jesus for Mohammed. Would Christians be offended by these images? Some no, some yes.
Bottom line, this may be time to re-examine insults to all religions. By the way, you have no idea how difficult it is for me to make this argument because I am a Christian and I believe that Islam is a spectacularly failed politico-religious movement. So, have at me.
"Bottom line, this may be time to re-examine insults to all religions."
Why?
It's obvious that ALL religions are nothing more super tribal politico ideological propaganda based on infantile mythology. Why should they be protected from scrutiny and derision?
Moneyrunner,
So what is the remedy? Do we punish blasphemers of all faiths? I would not support that.
I agree with your central point that upright people do not blaspheme, your observation about how those who do are petty and juvenile is spot on.
Our society is based upon the free embrace of virtue and attempts to coerce virtue result in something other than virtue. I may be inclined to agree that in the last fourty years or so there has been a civil war against virtue in the West. Iit seems people are using their freedoms and liberties to race to the bottom of the scum tank.
Let me tell you, any so-called representation of the Prophet Mohd (even those that are respectful and sensitive of the Prophet) is bound to offend MOST Muslims as (in terms of how I have seen it most often expressed) Islam bans "graven images" in the fear those images may be turned into items of idolotrous worship.
Doug,
It's only a trick if you wear da Magic Hat.
"It's obvious that ALL religions are nothing more super tribal politico ideological propaganda based on infantile mythology."
Really? You mean the mythology that guided Jesus of Nazareth and Daniel and Isaiah and Ezekiel TO PICK, HUNDREDS OF YEARS IN ADVANCE, the EXACT YEAR of the Coming of the Promised One?
The mythology that preaches the Oneness of God, the Oneness of Humankind and the Equality of Men and Women?
Or did you mean a mythology which demands the independent investigation of truth, and the recognition of the continual need for science to discover and religion to inculcate moral codes which develop and animate humankind?
If ANYTHING could have taken the place of the Faith of God and not brought pain and suffering to people, if there were ANY code or meme or shibboleth that could match the civilizing power of religion, surely the rational soul of humans would have FOUND it by now...
Or is rationality and compassion part of your 'mythology'?
Really? You mean the mythology that guided Jesus of Nazareth and Daniel and Isaiah and Ezekiel TO PICK, HUNDREDS OF YEARS IN ADVANCE, the EXACT YEAR of the Coming of the Promised One?
Using what calendar, Carridine?
France and Tonga has now joined Denmark in publishing the cartoons. Who will be next?
The AP reports that Germans print Muhammad caricatures.
I think we have discovered a secrect weopon against Amanijad. If these cartoons are printed in enough newspapers then his head will explode.
Marcus Aurelius,
When I began to change my views, I realized that I was going against both the spirit of the age and the tide of modern action. We have been taught that freedom can not be exercised without license.
Today it is “understood” that the cost of free expression is blasphemy. But when I hearken back to an earlier age – not all that long ago – there were many barriers to religious or sexual boundarylessness other than laws. There were the near-universal opinions that were marshaled against those who broke the taboos. In other words, if you were a pornographer or insulted my religion, you were not fit company for most people. And in this case, “most people’ included the newspaper publishers, the community leaders and those who established the norms of society.
Today you will find these worthies on the side of the bomb-throwers, the pornographers and the bigots who insult people of faith.
Why? They firmly believe that free speech equals offensive speech. Can this opinion be changed?
Why not?
Opinions were changed once; they can be changed again. There is nothing inevitable about it. And we have on our side (not that we want it) people who will kill you if you insult their prophet. I’m frankly embarrassed by this, but I’m looking for a way to turn it into an advantage.
And then, of course we have the law. There were once laws against pornography. These were torn down by the courts. And the public followed. And why not? Pornography is the most popular medium in the internet – the freest expression of opinion in the world. What does that tell you about human nature? It was said the hypocrisy is the price vice pays to virtue. There is a value to hypocrisy; because without hypocrisy we them become free to revel in vice. And I consider it an iron law of mankind that public morality is always higher than private morality. If we revel in public displays of vice, what do we do behind close doors?
But this is mere philosophical musing. I am ready to be shown the error of my ways. It would be easier is I were persuaded I am wrong. Please do so.
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