Wednesday, September 07, 2005

Speechless in Gaza

Normally there is a certain amount of stealth involved in murder. The killers lie in wait in dark corners. The deed is done in the minimum time. In the case of a political assassination the triggermen often attempt a getaway, the better to protect the identity of their masters. But in the case of Moussa Arafat, former head of the Palestinian Liberation Authority's Gaza security operation, no effort was spared to make his death as brutal, public and pointed as possible. According to the New York Times:

Dozens of masked gunmen dragged a former Gaza security chief from his home early on Wednesday and killed him in the street ... gunmen, armed with rifles and anti-tank grenades, battled Mr. Arafat's guards for 30 minutes ... before storming the house and dragging him outside, where they shot him dead.

The manner of Mr. Arafat's death suggests his assailants didn't care who knew they were coming for him and were confident that the Palestinian authorities, in whom such touching confidence is reposed, would never intervene in time, if they had any intention of coming at all. Nor were they mistaken. After assaulting Arafat's home by main force they dragged him into the street for disposal -- probably to make a point. How many murders happen like that?

Not many. Unless you count gangland hits. Although the Times reports that "the police told news agencies that they were investigating a report that Mr. Arafat's son, Manhal, 29, considered a close aide, had been kidnapped in the raid" one gets the feeling that the dividing line between "militants" and security authorities of the Palestinian Authority -- the very same ones the International Community relies on to break the "cycle of violence" -- and criminals is a thin one indeed.

Update

I've learned via private email that this incident is the latest in a Series of Unfortunate Events. Hamas deployed significant forces to Gaza, together with attached media elements under their control to harry the withdrawal of Jews from the Neve Dekalim settlement,  once "the largest Jewish settlement in Gaza". This was followed up by a rocket attack from the northern Gaza strip at Israeli settlements within range. Reuters reported on September 6, "two rockets fired from the Gaza Strip slammed into southern Israel on Tuesday, after Israel killed a Palestinian cutting his way into a demolished Jewish settlement in Gaza ...". This was the day after an incident on the West Bank where "14 houses belonging to residents of the Arab Christian town of Taiba northeast of Ramallah, were torched by Muslims from neighboring Deir Jarir on Sunday, to avenge what they termed the dishonor of a Muslim woman."

There will be those who may take the view that these incidents are unavoidable bumps on the road to the eventual liberation of Arabs from the Israeli yoke, a road signposted by the UN-funded banners which read "Gaza Today. The West Bank and Jerusalem Tomorrow". The question of course, is what if they are not regrettable incidents, but events which characterize the new regime in Gaza? Many of those who rejoiced at Ernst Rohm's demise in the Night of the Long Knives comforted themselves by believing it was a case of one set of hoodlums rubbing out the other. It was true; but it was also irrelevant.

65 Comments:

Blogger Bobby Coggins said...

I guess this means the primary season has begun for the Palestinians. Just imagine what Super Tuesday would look like...aaah!

9/07/2005 01:41:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Iraqi Politician Iyad Jamal Al-Din: The Arabs Want Tyrannical Regimes, in Line with Their Backward Culture .
The terrified and self-defeated Arab states, who fear the establishment of a democratic regime in Iraq, would prefer a stupid and reckless dictator like Saddam to a democratic regime in Iraq, because the epidemic of democracy and the winds of freedom will reach them, whether they like it or not.
[...]
Arab countries, especially those bordering with Iraq, can do a lot. We know that Saudi Arabia is also afflicted by terrorism. Many Arab countries are also afflicted by terrorism. But they are both the victim and the hangman at the same time. I was surprised when the crime in Sharm Al-Sheik occurred, those terrorist attacks. I followed the events on one of the Egyptian channels, and saw Egyptian intellectuals publicly justify terrorism, although the crime took place in their own country, and they were its victims. They said that this was the result of the Arab-Israeli conflict and the outcome of the situation in Iraq - as if we have nothing to do with terrorism and the culture of hatred. We produce terrorism.
. The Arabs Want Tyrannical Regimes

9/07/2005 03:45:00 AM  
Blogger wretchardthecat said...

I would truly like to see the Palestinians succeed to become happy, prosperous people. For this to happen, two events must take place, in my simple minded estimation.

First. They must take possession of themselves. No nation can long endure under the leadership of thugs.

Second. They must come to some arrangement with Israel, as Israel must come to some arrangement with them. It is impossible, I think, to base a political program on the expectation of destroying a technologically advanced state with hundreds of nuclear weapons -- and expect to escape in the bargain.

For this reason, I am dismayed at the turn of events in Gaza. It's a train wreck. These kinds of gangland killings make it possible to ask 'See what concessions bring? Look what a fantasy peace with these criminals is!' And they would be right, after a fashion. It's a problem that has to be solved, though I can't think how it will be.

9/07/2005 04:14:00 AM  
Blogger Baron Bodissey said...

The origin of a functional state can often include the operations of groups indistinguishable from gangs, pirates, bands of thugs, etc. Remember that the Royal Navy began as a collection of pirates, euphemistically termed privateers. The Crown found them useful and licensed them, and they evolved into the Navy.

Gangs may gradually morph into militias, police forces, and armies, and the whole mass becomes organized and ordered by a central authority. The state is thus legitimized, and violence becomes the monopoly of state forces.

The questions concerning the PA are:

1. Is there a central organizing authority that can corral the thugs and convert them into agents of the state?

2. Is the society a self-organizing one? That is, will people naturally form a consensus around the nature of its important institutions, conferring legitimacy upon them and allowing the emergence of a native political order?

I have my doubts about both of these.

9/07/2005 04:28:00 AM  
Blogger Eleanor © said...

This isn't rocket science. The "Palestinian situation" is the localized name for the relentless push of Islamic triumphalism that Muslims are determined to impose upon the rest of us. We must face up to the fact that sooner or later every other locality will have the same "situation."

9/07/2005 05:19:00 AM  
Blogger goesh said...

First I am surprised this is even being reported in light of the Western media refusing to address the summary trials, executions and public mutilations of suspected collaberators that have occured in Gaza and the West Bank. The numbers of these executions and mutilations will never be known to outsiders. Secondly, it must be nice to be a member of a terrorist organization such as hamas and be exempt from the larger war on terrorism. The dictatorship of Arafat is being replaced with that of hamas. Let them wallow as such then and remain a bloody back-water of facism. Will Israel maintain the infrastructure once they withdraw? Will they continue to provide free medical care to the palestinians and hamas supporters who continue to assert that Israel does not have the right to exist? I'm sure the answer is yes and that means that some of my tax dollars given to Israel will provide aid to a group, hamas, that is deemed to be a terrorist organization.

9/07/2005 05:21:00 AM  
Blogger wretchardthecat said...

The BBC is suggesting that Arafat's killers were:

"a fringe group, consisting mainly of dissident or breakaway members of the mainstream Fatah movement and former Palestinian security officials"

Nice to know that it's safe to pass the hat around again for the Palestinian cause. But at the minimum, one should ask the same questions about the PLA that were eventually asked about the IRA and about ETA: namely, is the left funding a solution or a problem?

Year by year one is led to hope that this 'moderate' leader and that 'peace-loving' faction will take charge. Critics speak of the lack of "metrics" in Iraq. Well what are the metrics to judge progress on this issue? I don't mean lines on the ground, but in terms of changes in the political culture. Surely lines on the ground will mean nothing if the political culture remains toxic.

9/07/2005 05:39:00 AM  
Blogger RWE said...

A question for some time has been what kind of state the Palistinians could form given their attitudes and inclinations. Yasser Arafat, rather than teaching the Palestinians that they could push the Jews into the sea, taught them to become completely disfunctional.
In WWII, when told about the plans for Kamikaze attacks, the Japanese military did not rejoice but instead were horrified. The great ace, Saburo Saki, was given the job of escorting one of the first attacks but instead led everyone back home, where they were all greeted with relief. Contrast this with the Palestinians dressing their babies up in simulated suicide bomber costumes.

9/07/2005 05:44:00 AM  
Blogger Baron Bodissey said...

Wretchard, I hate to say this, but the metric is the number of dead Jews. More Jews killed? More Israeli concessions are required! Israel then gives more concessions: that's progress.

We count the steps of the "peace process" by the number of dead Jews.

9/07/2005 05:46:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

wretchard said First. They must take possession of themselves. No nation can long endure under the leadership of thugs.

The sad truth is the "palestinians" are not a natural tribe or people, they are a myth created by Egypt Secret Police and Egyptians (arafat) as a tool of Egyptian Policy. (after all the 1st attack by the PLO was in 1966 on Israel's national water carrier) History will prove this to be, you cannot force nationhood on people who infact are not a nation. The term "palestine" and palestinian was used referring to JEWS for almost 1300 years before arafat successfully coop'd the term (and did quite a good job at it)

To understand the mentality of the arabs of gaza and the west bank "clans" comes to mind not the stuff of nation states, more like the crips and bloods with billions of petro dollars and weapons. Just as the world looks to masses of population in N Korea, Iraq (pre-invasion) and other despot run countries to rise up and to "throw the bums out" it is not a given. The "palestinian" people have been brain washed for 40 years to believe in the death cult the world has supported. Can you really blame the palestinians? The United Nations, the Arab League (created to be supportive of the palestinians) the USSR, EU, China, Unaligned Movement of Nations have all (and still do) support the just cause of murdering every man, woman and child that lives within the state of Israel as they are potential solders (since military service is manditory).


wretchard: Second. They must come to some arrangement with Israel, as Israel must come to some arrangement with them. It is impossible, I think, to base a political program on the expectation of destroying a technologically advanced state with hundreds of nuclear weapons -- and expect to escape in the bargain.

But the escape is what the world has promised and also forced Israel to allow... The Palestinians do not see the world post 9/11, Madrid, London, they still are in the middle of a death cult orgy, as we speak thousand of "palestinian freedom fighters" are making their way to gaza for join the battle to be!

The difference is, whereas saddam played the war games in chess dimension and the USA played in 6 additional dimensions at the same time, the palestinians are playing checkers with the Israelis. The gaza strip is a small area, it's water & electricity is supplied by ISRAEL, the Freedom Fighters expect the world to support their attacks and to not allow israel to respond....

can we say it's time for a military solution?

9/07/2005 05:48:00 AM  
Blogger wretchardthecat said...

The curious thing is that, shades of 1984, the old Arafat administration is now being referred to by the BBC as the "corrupt old guard". When he was alive, Arafat was described in hagiographic terms. But "Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia" except that I had forgotten.

Well, is the metric the number of Jews dead, as Baron says? Then the gong should go to Hitler or is the Left embarassed to award it to him?

9/07/2005 05:50:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

image this in detroit.. 5 dead and 38 wounded (mostly women and children)

Palestinians blame Gaza blast on Hamas explosives
07 September 2005


GAZA: A blast that tore through the home of a Gaza family active in the Hamas militant group, killing four people, was caused by explosives that went off accidentally, the Palestinian Authority said.

9/07/2005 05:57:00 AM  
Blogger Baron Bodissey said...

Well, Wretch, when the "Palestinians" get their "state", expect that Hitler's portrait will occupy an honored position on the wall alongside Arafat's in all the offices of the bureaucracy.

Though exactly what the bureaucracy will administer is hard to imagine.

9/07/2005 06:10:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050904/wl_mideast_afp/mideastpalestiniangazafactions_050904223945

In Gaza, a young man's stunt sparks militant rumble

RAFAH, Gaza Strip (AFP) - It could have been Detroit or London. Teenagers fighting over sneakers and a nasty look. But this was Rafah, one of the world's grimmest border towns, where a young man's grudge could drag families and militias to war and rattle society's very foundations.

It started when 29-year-old Sidqi Barbakh revved the wheels of his blue Mercedes, spewing dirt in the faces of Hamas militants manning a night-time checkpoint.

(((notice what the "young man" was driving!")))

armed Hamas militants vowed to hunt him down.

Both sides fell back on their connections. Barbakh leaned on his status as an intelligence agent in the Palestinian Authority and his tribal ties with his 15,000 strong clan that flaunts a reputation for never steering away from a fight.

"Every party depends on big families to support their cause," says local Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoom.

According to tradition, Barbakh's family sent an emissary to the aggrieved Hamas members' relatives with a formal apology, but it was not enough.

The Hamas members jumped a car a few days later carrying someone they thought was Barbakh, whom they proceeded to beat.

Tuesday morning at 2:00 am, the Hamas militants hunting Barbakh for a week pumped 12 shots into his car

Within minutes, a car of gunmen sprayed bullets into the home of Hamas' political leader in Rafah, Issa al-Nashar, but wounded no one in the house.


typical gazan democracy at it's finest..

9/07/2005 06:20:00 AM  
Blogger goesh said...

I've said it before, it's the same old gestapo, just in a different time and in a different language. The assertion by hamas that Israel does not have a right to exist is nothing other than Juden raus spoken in arabic.

9/07/2005 07:02:00 AM  
Blogger StoutFellow said...

The curious thing is that, shades of 1984, the old Arafat administration is now being referred to by the BBC as the "corrupt old guard".

Perhaps the BBC is pooh-poohing the Arafats as 'old guard' because the extermination of the Jews and the establishment of an Arab Palestinian nation is no longer a lofty enough goal.

The new guard, of course, wants much more, namely the establishment of the Global Caliphate. It was General Arafat's mistake to take a stand against those whose ultimate goal is to subject us all to life under Shariah law.

As chief of military intelligence in the 1990s, Gen Arafat earned a reputation for ruthlessness.

He was involved in a 1996 crackdown on Hamas and Islamic Jihad militants, when he shaved the heads and beards of detainees as a form of humiliation.


Perhaps the most frightening thing on this thread thus far, is the treatment by the Daily Telegraph of Hitler's actions against his loyal German officers (in Wretchard's long knives link).

Herr Adolf Hitler, the German Chancellor, has saved his country. Swiftly and with exorable severity, he has delivered Germany from men who had become a danger to the unity of the German people and to the order of the state. With lightening rapidity he has caused them to be removed from high office, to be arrested, and put to death.
The names of the men who have been shot by his orders are already known. Hitler's love of Germany has triumphed over private friendships and fidelity to comrades who had stood shoulder to shoulder with him in the fight for Germany's future.

Daily Mail, July 2nd 1934.



Wow, talking about carrying your enemy's water.

9/07/2005 07:25:00 AM  
Blogger Baron Bodissey said...

Concerning the Night of the Long Knives (June 30, 1934) --

A recent theory has it that Hitler's urgent need to eliminate Ernst Röhm was more than just a political calculation to remove a source of rival power.

Röhm was a notorious homosexual, as were many of his minions in the SA. His association with Hitler went all the way back to the Western Front in WW1.

Some historians now believe that Hitler, as well as Röhm, consorted with "nancy boys" in the dugouts on the front. Later, when he had reached the pinnacle of power and visibility, Hitler felt the need to silence one of the few witnesses to his shameful behavior in the war (supposedly other lesser fellows were bought off and/or intimidated).

If true, this gives him yet another similarity to Arafat.

9/07/2005 07:40:00 AM  
Blogger T said...

The example of how to operate a state and how to deal with your political enemies for Palestinians comes from those who are occupying them, the Israelis. Violent and brutal political assasination is standard policy with the Israelis, when Palestinian factions who aren't associated with the government emulate this you criticize them as barbarians, yet have no complaints when the Israeli government undertakes such killings as an official policy. Instead racist claims are made about the natural brutality of Arab-Muslims. More hypocrisy, racism, and moral ambigularity from you guys.

9/07/2005 07:51:00 AM  
Blogger exhelodrvr1 said...

Doug Santo,

"I believe the majority of the Palestinians desire a peaceful coexistence with Israel."

That same line of thinking could apply to the entire Muslim world; unfortunately, I don't think it is accurate. I used to agree that that was the mindset of the average Muslim, but I have come to believe that it is actually a small minority who desire peaceful coexistence. A fanatical minority actively seeks the destruction of the West (including Israel in that) and the great majority support that fanatical minority. I think that the best we can hope for is that over the span of 2-3 generations that "great majority" will gradually turn away from the "fanatical minority." Until then, hopefully we can keep them in place through fear.

9/07/2005 08:41:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Stoutfellow said,
"Wow, talking about carrying your enemy's water."
---
So, how do you rate it on a scale of 1-10,
10 being = to CNN's treatment of
Democrat Leadership Skills
(W's incompetences/hatred of Blacks)
during Katrina?
---
How does Bibi fit into this story?

9/07/2005 08:44:00 AM  
Blogger xlbrl said...

Wretchard, I began to understand some years ago that Arafat won. I do not know if it was by design or accident, and the act of winning in this case would not be desirable by our standards, but the dye is cast. The Palistinian Arab was, in spite of everything, once seen correctly as relatively industrious and upwardly mobile, in Israel proper or out. Those that emmigrated did well and were expected to do well. Arafat, with the considerable help of Western liberals, changed the Palestinian culture into what it is now, and to its core. That is not reversable but by death, or total Israeli victory. Critical mass has long since been passed. Israeli's will not do to Palestinians what Palestinians will do to Israeli's, ever. So, Israeli's will eventually leave but for the proportion of Orthodox who will die there. How many Israeli's do not have a bolt hole right now? Which raises the question, what are we doing with our Johnsons hanging out in an untenable dynamic that can cause us no gain but much harm? Yes, we are well judged by what we do when there is no gain but in being decent or rightious, but we have done this for fifty years and with no resolution in sight but the one I see coming. I welcome being corrected from my pessimistic views.

9/07/2005 08:49:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

ex helo said,
"the great majority support that fanatical minority."
---
Agree,
I hope you are wrong about 2-3 generations.
Hope springs eternal.
Could a masculine foreign policy elevate this hope to become a reality?

9/07/2005 08:49:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Murder, assassination and thuggery abound in the MidEast

If Leaders in the ME moderate and move towards reconciliation, they are killed by their own "Tribes" extremists.

This type of 'Political Dialogue' runs from the grassroots to the pinnacles of power

Ask Begin or Sadat.
A lovely region indeed.

9/07/2005 08:52:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Sophia Phoster said...
The Palestinian "situation" is the most effective public relations campaign in modern history.
---
James Wilson said...
The Palistinian Arab was, in spite of everything, once seen correctly as relatively industrious and upwardly mobile, in Israel proper or out.
Those that emmigrated did well and were expected to do well.
Arafat, with the considerable help of Western liberals, changed the Palestinian culture into what it is now, and to its core.
That is not reversable but by death, or total Israeli victory. Critical mass has long since been passed. Israeli's will not do to Palestinians what Palestinians will do to Israeli's, ever.
---
I say, let's not leave out specifics,
like France,
JC (Carter)
Bubba and Hillary,
and the UN.
(Not to exclude all the rest that James includes.)

9/07/2005 08:58:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Will the MSM portray Bibi as 'Outside the Mainstream' and Sharon as the 'Peace Maker'

Meanwhile the Gaza 'street' holds it's own elections, it will be interesting to see who the last man standing will be.

9/07/2005 09:01:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

'Rat,
Is Bibi as bad as W, or his judicial nominees?

9/07/2005 09:04:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Nathan,
Cool!

9/07/2005 09:10:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

iotm said...
The example of how to operate a state and how to deal with your political enemies for Palestinians comes from those who are occupying them, the Israelis.

iotm, if that were the case, israel could take a page from syria and simply murder 10,000 in one day period (hama, syria population zero) or Jordan "Black September" treatment, the Palestinians have 21 other arab nations to base thier behavior on, and quite frankly, they have learned from the arab world, not the israelis..

iotm: Violent and brutal political assasination is standard policy with the Israelis

actually no, "political assasination" is not practiced, military assasination is... otherwise why did the israelis NOT murder arafat in his HQ?

iotm: when Palestinian factions who aren't associated with the government emulate this you criticize them as barbarians, yet have no complaints when the Israeli government undertakes such killings as an official policy.

no, i embrace palestinians loving on another with bullets....

iotm: Instead racist claims are made about the natural brutality of Arab-Muslims. More hypocrisy, racism, and moral ambigularity from you guys.

is it not racist to claim that the israelis are naturally violent as you do?


please iotm, go live with your loving palestinians i am sure they will embrace you as a brother of love...

9/07/2005 09:14:00 AM  
Blogger Annoy Mouse said...

There is no honor in murder.
The operation described is akin to death squad tactics, tactics that are meant to impress one with the wrath and fury of revenge. Eliminating an inconvenience is done in the shadows, the brutal killing was intended to evoke terror in those who might cross such men.

A new thug is in town and you shall know his wrath.

Hamas struggles to put the boot on the neck of the average Palestinian, in time when they have sufficiently terrorized the Pali’s, they will turn their malignant talents on Israel knowing they have the support of other Arab states. The ensuing bloodbath will likely raise the collective ire of Europeans who will decry that Israel has once again broken their own peace treaty.

The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

9/07/2005 09:14:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

How does MOTI "think," connect "facts,"
and yet always avoid any truth?
Is it his moral ambigularity?
hmmm

9/07/2005 09:22:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Doug Santo,
Have not read your link yet:
Can only say that I was temporarily caught up in the MSM story line,
"my compassion for others,"
took me on a brief trip back into unthoughtout
"Moral Outrage!"
Very Mainstream of me!
(In the 60's, it would have been very radical of me.)
Times do change.

9/07/2005 09:30:00 AM  
Blogger exhelodrvr1 said...

I do have one question for everyone (sorry if it has already been asked.)

Was anyone surprised by this? Disappointed, definitely. But surprised?

9/07/2005 09:32:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Dan said,
"like a mother scolding her small son for saying something true that she didn't want the offended adult to think, for social purposes, reflected her own opinion. "
---
No more likely to result in truth than a MOTI Monkey and a Keyboard.
---
(But could mess with the son's mind for years.)

9/07/2005 09:36:00 AM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

We *knew* this was coming, the instant Sharon announced his withdrawal plan: that the Palestinians would devolve into civil war, killing each other. When you have a culture that's built upon a basis of hatred, murder and revenge, and you withdraw the normal (Jewish) victims, then that culture must necessarily turn upon itself.

Wretchard is a good guy in his hope that the Palestinians will somehow manage to grow up and become adult enough to build instead of destroy. But if they have no such adult role models among them, how can they?

What will happen is that the Israeli's will withdraw behind their walls, the plighted Pal's will kill each other with gusto and innovation while the UN and the world's media watches out of the corner of their eyes fluttering their hands every once in a while in little "don't" semiphores, and eventually when enough of the testosterone poisoned Palestinian men have died, the left-over old men, young boys and women will have emigrated elsewhere, and what will be left is a haunted monument to "intifada" and futility.

Think IRA -- and how happy and prosperous *those* battles have made the Irish people.

Personally, I'm really looking forward to the coming blood-bath of Palestinian wannabe martyrs suddenly becoming dead at each other's hands (and by "work accidents" as they blow themselves up). I figure they say they all want to die anyway, so what difference does it make who does the actual killing?

9/07/2005 09:41:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Are we all properly impressed by the obduracy of the MSM story line in the face of ugly facts on the ground recently with regards to Katrina or "Palestine"?
T-Shirt:
Don't F... w/the Storyline!

9/07/2005 09:44:00 AM  
Blogger exhelodrvr1 said...

Dan,
In the "surprised" question I was referring to Gaza. I was unpleasantly surprised by the almost complete failure of the locals in New Orleans.

9/07/2005 10:38:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

-- 7% said state and local officials in Louisiana have done a "great" job in "responding to the hurricane and subsequent flooding"; 30% said "good"; 23% said "neither good nor bad"; 20% said "bad"; 15% said "terrible"; 5% had no opinion.
---
7% would be hard core...
?

9/07/2005 10:58:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

"reality becomes a sub-category of politics."

9/07/2005 10:59:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

7% believe in little green men, women, and children, oppressed by Bush, if their politics demand it.

9/07/2005 11:01:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

Wislon said: Arafat won. I do not know if it was by design or accident

by design...

Wislon: The Palistinian Arab was relatively industrious and upwardly mobile, in Israel proper or out.

yep...

Wislon: Arafat, with the help of Western liberals, changed the Palestinian culture

dont under count the arab world's support, the ussr & india

Wislon: That is not reversable but by death, or total Israeli victory. Critical mass has long since been passed. Israeli's will not do to Palestinians what Palestinians will do to Israeli's, ever.

My personal point, so what Israel cannot do to the Palestinians, allow the Palestinians to do to each other..

Wilson: So, Israeli's will eventually leave but for the proportion of Orthodox who will die there.

I see it different, the fence and the disengagement will not force Israelis to leave, but to divorce the Arabs, then the arabs will back flow into the arab world (and eurabia) .taking with them thier values and culture, already you see it in iraq and saudia arabia.. The virus of islamic/palestinian behavior is now infecting the very host body that supported it, the world in a very short time will have to decide on it's future. In the mean time, Israel will wall off into Fortess Israel, not to make a prison out of Gaza, but to not allow palestinians INTO the Nation of Israel...

9/07/2005 11:03:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

OT, but SO much a part of the problem:
"Dems Assail White House on Katrina Effort,.
Congress' top two Democrats furiously criticized the administration's response to Hurricane Katrina on Wednesday, with Sen. Harry Reid demanding to know whether President Bush's Texas vacation impeded relief efforts and Rep. Nancy Pelosi assailing the chief executive as "oblivious, in denial" about the difficulties."

9/07/2005 11:08:00 AM  
Blogger StoutFellow said...

Doug,
How does Bibi fit into this story?


Just guessing, but he gives the order to eliminate Iran's nuclear weapons capability?

A more immediate question might be, how do Iran and Hezbollah fit into this story? The answer is that they can't allow Palestinian statehood to stand in the way of the Global Jihad. This is not about nation states, it's about Islamic totalitarian ideology. Submit and be free.

9/07/2005 11:39:00 AM  
Blogger T said...

Just the other day in an assasination the Israeli government killed 5 people. 2 are reportedly to be "sympathetic" to "terrorist organizations", and three were simply kids. The kids were unarmed, there are conflicting reports about whether the 2 who were targetted were unarmed.

Now this is worse because this is official government business of assasinating political enemies. It's not just thugs aspiring for power like in Palestine, it's the government doing it.

I'm not claiming Israelis are inherently violent in the least. The vast majority want peace, the biggest supporters of Zionism are Americans, not Israelis. I don't claim that all Jews are evil and violent by nature like you lot. Your claims are racist, mine are stating simple facts. I find it incredibly hypocritical that you'd not talk about Israel's official policy of doing this.

This relativistic morality needs to stop. An act isn't good or bad based on whether or not one of the US's puppets or enemies is diong it. This article and the responses are nothing but a thinly veiled racist attack on Muslim-Arabs.

What's next for Belmont Club, posts about how black people are evil for looting, but white people are heroes for acting resourcefully and salvaging things? How do you not implode from these massive logical contradictions in your basic beliefs?

9/07/2005 11:48:00 AM  
Blogger Rick Ballard said...

Looks like they got the son, too.

I keep trying to pick a side in this contest but I think I'll wait for further forthright and forceful exchanges of views before doing so. The Palis have sure perfected their debating skills. The thought of Pali kids eagerly anticipating their chance to cast their first bullet is heartwarming.

9/07/2005 11:51:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

dave h said,
"Have you heard any speculation about possible solutions? "
---
Free settlements and provisions in a scooped out bowl beneath sea level?

9/07/2005 01:09:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Surprised you fell for any of this, Rick:
Most of us realize he died of EPD.
(Extreme Plaque Disorder)

9/07/2005 01:22:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

Iotm: Just the other day in an assasination the Israeli government killed 5 people. 2 are reportedly to be "sympathetic" to "terrorist organizations", and three were simply kids. The kids were unarmed, there are conflicting reports about whether the 2 who were targetted were unarmed.

please provide some details

9/07/2005 01:53:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

dave h: Pork, you say the wall etc will shut out Palestinians from Israel. Maybe, but aren't there enough Israeli Muslims, that given the differing birth rates, have the potential for disaster down the road?

Israeli arabs which number about 25% have chosen to be israeli. It is VERY rare for these israeli citizens to do violence. (it aint perfect) If asked if they would want to migrate or become part of the new "palestine" they refuse (that is why the jerusalem arab population fears the splitting of the city and the PA to secure areas of Jerusalem and refuse to vote in PA elections)

David h: Does not Israel need to rid itself of this population of Muslims to survive long term?

nope

David H: Can they be subsidized to leave? Surely clear sighted people cam see that the current population mix is not viable. Have you heard any speculation about possible solutions?

I predict the moslem populations of the world will have trouble living amongst western countries and many will be forced to return to their homelands. The peaceful arab population of israel will continue to live, work and succeed at far greater rates than anything in the arab world.

9/07/2005 01:59:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Previously we all seemed to assume that it would be an Israeli hammer that would descend on the chaos of Gaza.
Now another idea, that of Egyptians cleaning upthe Gaza, after the Terrorist spending a liitle more 'red on red' quality time together.
Just a few days ago didn't allah's pork ring post on Egyptian Army Officers getting whacked on their Gaza border?

9/07/2005 02:53:00 PM  
Blogger wretchardthecat said...

Cedarford,

One might think that an Israeli withdrawal to secure pre-1965 boundaries might be a step in the right direction. And it would, if the 1965 boundaries were acceptable to all parties concerned. But they were not. Nor were the 1947 or 1956 boundaries.

As to the Jewish program to "transfer" non-Jews from their midst, one key difference is numbers. There is not now, nor has there ever been nor will there ever be any realistic prospect of ridding the Middle East of Arabs. However, it is entirely feasible to rid the region of Jews. Therefore, while the racist aspects of Zionism can't be justified, the key qualitative difference lies in this asymmetry. There has never been any doubt about the Arab countries' right to exist. What is at issue is whether Israel has this same right.

To his credit, though he may be an unattractive person, Sharon is re-emphasizing this key issue. At this historical stage, it is far from clear to me that either the 'International Community' nor the bar of Arab public opinion, deep down, are amenable to the existence of Israel. Or whether they would not prefer, could it be accomplished swiftly and without much fuss, that the Jewish problem went away.

If the creating the perception that 'Israel is no longer an occupying power' serves the cause of peace, it seems to me reasonable that forcefully acknowledging the right of Israel to exist would do the same thing. Gaza shows that Israel, however haltingly and in despite of internal political division, is willing to utter the first proposition; what now remains to be seen is whether the Arabs are capable of uttering the second. I think they would, had not this crazy UN system taken a wrecker-ball to the fabric of West Bank and Gazan society.

9/07/2005 03:43:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Deja Voodoo All Over Again:
Nagin calls for mandatory evac.
Blank0 says that's her call.
She's still undecided!!!

9/07/2005 04:34:00 PM  
Blogger rhhardin said...

Actually serial murderers aim for notariety, the media playing a key role :

``But whatever the causes, anxiety is on us like a plague these days. Not long ago thrillers and murder mysteries were mostly about criminals with distinct motives. Now they feature the serial killer. Unlike the murderer who killed, fulfilled his purpose, and hoped to remain innocuous, the inexorable serial killer with his open-ended string of crimes hopes to become famous as a source of anxiety. News broadcasts, themselves great organizers of anxiety, regularly contain health segments in which the public is invited to become anxious about what it eats, what it buys, how it seeks pleasure....''

Wm. Kerrigan

http://home.att.net/~rhhardin2/kerrigan.anxiety.txt

9/07/2005 05:27:00 PM  
Blogger wretchardthecat said...

Cedarford,

If Right of Return can be solved by compensation the solution is immediately within reach. The amount of money that has been thrown at this problem and those that are supposed to flow from it, are immense and only likely to grow. But if I understand you aright, this was an option that can no longer be exercised because Israel missed the cutoff.

However that may be we are left with the present. Israel's right to exist has been formally acknowledged in diplomatic discourse -- and then the Right of Return is invoked -- which means, that effectively speaking, Israel has no right to exist. Unfortunately Israel exists and can defend that existence with the same amount of firepower as France might have.

That leaves us with a two step problem. First, will Israel agree to return to some definitely acceptable border? Second, will the Arabs agree to respect that border -- which means no Right of Return, because if a border is to mean anything under these terms, it cannot mean a country from which the Jews will ultimately be expelled.

9/07/2005 06:00:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

C4 wrote: Both the Road Map and the Crown Prince (now King) Abdullah Plan contain a requirement that surrounding nations recognize Israel's right to exist.

The UN in 1948 gave Israel the right to exist

C4: The Big One - the showkiller objection - is Right of Return. Decades ago, Israel could have resolved this with payments to Egypt and Jordan to waive refugee grievances. They could have gotten off cheap, but while Israel has made moral blackmail and lawsuits for WWII reparations an art form, it is beyond stingy in compensating the Christian and Muslim refugees it stole land from in 1948.

Dont confuse two different issues...

In 1948 there were jewish refugees from the arab world in excess of any arab refugees from the israel, population exchanged occurs all over the world, only the palestinians refused to resettle.

C4: Then came the era of individual compensation, where many Pals and more Christians were willing to settle for money and a limited right of return, physically. Zionists blew that because not only did they block a giving out a single precious shekel, they believe as the Nazis did that their land must be racially pure one day, and returning Christians and Muslims would defile "their land"

Actually you state lies. Today the arab world is jew free and Israel is 40% nonjewish. Many a precious shekel has been wasted on palestinians to heal them only to have them blow themsevles up murdering israelis. The arab world stole property and made thier lands juden free, Israel on the other hand is has people of all faiths. the Grand mufti of jerusalem was a personal friend of hilter, not the jews...

C4. So they thwarted all negotiations, individual, or between Muslim Front Line states for years by saying the Pals would get nothing until places like Morocco and Iran paid full price for assets Jews voluntarily or involuntarily left - as adjudicated in Israeli courts - something they knew Iran, Iraq, Morocco had no intent of doing for the Pals.

wow quite the distortion of history... never knew the arab world was begging for peace all these years... those 3 no’s Arab League Summit in Khartoum with the infamous “3 No’s”: no to peace, no to negotiations, and no to recognizing Israel.is just israel bullshit.....


C4: Palestinian Christians, if possible, hate Israel even more than Muslims, because they lost more land and property than most Muslims - and Israel's re-establishment disrupted the delicate balance and truce that Christians had accomplished with their Muslim majority neighbors not just in Israel, but throughout the ME.

again, nice distortions, blame the jews, how dare they, to use YOUR words “reestablish” Israel...That’s the cause of everything, Jews daring to REESTABLISH thier rights to their land...but again you are wrong, the % in all arab lands of christians is going down due to the moslems killing and driving christians out... not israel just look at the peaceful christians that live in israel.

C4: Now with the rise of the Pal death cult and radical Islam, the insistence is a physical return AND compensation of all Refugee heirs. Something physically impossible for Israel to do without destroying itself.

Just compensation was and is offered by israel, any offers for the arab world for the same?

C4: The trick will be for strong borders to begin burning out the hatred, show the world that Pals out from under the Zionist boot are still royally screwed up,

nice NAZI boot image there...

C4: and Jews inside Israel and outside being willing to part with their precious money -

more Jew money hints....

C4: sophistry about how Iran, etc. must pay them 1st aside - in lieu of compensating by bringing whole Palestinian villages back to where they lived for millennia.

Justice means both sides need to be taken care of, let’s see one agreement from the 21 nation states of the arab world vrs Israel for property and compesation, Israel alone should not be required to compensate until the arab world does the same, and yes it is related and the SAME issue

Nice rewritting of the yrs for 1948 - 2005...

9/07/2005 06:33:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

C4: The National Socialists of Germany had a similar problem. They wanted an ethnically pure state, as Israel does.

Prove this, at this time, Israel has the most culturally diverse country in the entire middle east, fact prove your statement false....

c4: Their initial strategy was to work with Zionists to make Jews of the Zionist, communist, socialist, or apolitical persuasion leave voluntarily. The Nazis even worked with Zionist leaders to create Zionist camps to encourage non-Zionist Jews to join the Zionist cause - and create funding mechanisms to permit "Transfer". But that soon showed that the majority of Jews had no intention of becoming Zionists and leaving their professions or businesses for an uncertain future.

yes the fun filled voluntary nazi transfer programs... never heard of them.
again, stick to the facts, the nazis murdered millions to cleanout their lands

c4: Similar programs in Israel have tried to convince Arab Israelis that they would be much happier in the UK or America.

this aint the same thing..

C4: Laws have even been passed that if an Arab Israeli leaves for school and marries a non-Israeli - they lose citizenship.

please post a link to prove this

C4: .Over 100,000 Palestinians and Israeli Arabs became Americans.

Same amount of jewish israelis have become american, your point?


C4: Then the Nazis, as did the Israelis, turned the screws on the undesirables, hoping by making life miserable for the Palestinians, or the Jews back when, that they would force them to emigrate.

Actually the Nazis used actual screws, so again , your comparison sucks

c4: the Zionists Zealots dream of Final racial purity is Transfer at gunpoint, with terror - of all Isreali Arabs and Palestinians to Jordan.

Where do you get this stuff?

C4: For years Zionists have tried to promote the myth that all Arabs are Arabs,

yes a guy named NASSER said that....


C4: If Israel wants to solve it's Israeli Arab problem - integrate them better and lower their high birthrate, several solutions await.

C4: 1. Israel has started abandoning "Jews-only" hiring practices for national services like the phone company, El-Al Airline, security companies, defense contractors.

Please provide any proof as arabs do serve as judges, in the army, own companies and land... your flipped around, jews are not allowed to work in all those examples in any arab country, nor are they allowed to vote, own land or even live...

C4: 2. Schools and towns still have Jim Crow segregation. As in America under Jim Crow, the housing and schools of the minorities receive less funding and are generally inferior.

Just like in amercia, the wealthier towns have better infrastructure, the arabs dont pay anywhere near the amount in taxes the jews do, and such JUST LIKE IN AMERICA some towns have nicer schools, but in the arab world jews are not allowed to live, so they have no problem living with arabs, they have all be ethnically cleansed.

C4: 3. Israeli-Arab income is 40% less than the favored Jews. Poverty results in higher birthrates.

It’s called work ethic... if the arabs dont want to work why should they receive the same pay?

c4: 4. The "dream of Israel" as it is broadcast to the world and it's own population - is a Zionist one. The destiny of the Jewish people, a Jewish homeland run only by Jews, courts that must be made up of Jews to try Jews, a land where only "authorized" natives and Jews anywhere can stake citizenship on. Which puts the Israeli Arabs as an unwanted afterthought in the way of such a destiny.

the arabs have 21 states already, and another one coming, the land mass of the arab world is 100 times larger than all of israel, let’s see the brother arabs open up thier wallets and homes to share their societies....

C4: Only when the cancer of Zionism abates somewhat - and only half of Jewish Israelis embrace it's tenents - can Israel work as a multi-ethnic land where equality is accepted and all work together for a common future.

the cancer of zionism... nice....

only when the cancer of islam and arab nationalism abates somewhat - now that sounds better after all, 21 nations of the arab world plus your pals the palestinians have ZERO multi-ethnic lands, whereas israel already does quite a nice job...

9/07/2005 06:57:00 PM  
Blogger M. Simon said...

Cedarford,

No mention of the mass transfers of Jews out of the Arab world.

If it is good enough for the Arabs why not the Jews too?

As to the Jews stealing the land: land taken in defensive wars is not stolen land. It is lost land.

Prior to the start of the anti-Israeli wars Jews bought the land. It is the arabs who are the thieves.

9/08/2005 03:11:00 AM  
Blogger M. Simon said...

Cedarford,

I would think the Arab world owes the Jews for stealing their property post 1948.

Do you suppose the Arabs will pay up?

Do you suppose the Jews could get the right to visit? Let alone the right to return?

I say let the one debt cancel the others.

9/08/2005 03:17:00 AM  
Blogger M. Simon said...

Cedarford,

1967 grabbed land?

As I understand it closing the Straights of Tirana to Israeli traffic was an act of war.

Israel under international law was empowered to strike Egypt (if it chose to do so) to gain free passage on the open seas.

When Jordan joined with Egypt to fight back following the initial Israeli attack they became parties to the war.

When Syria joined it, it too became a party to the war.

They all lost.

There is a diplomatic rule for such happenings: Most Unfortunate.

Post 1967 Israel offered the land back in exchange for a peace treaty with the Arab world.

The Arabs rejected the offer.

There is a diplomatic saying for such happenings: Most Unfortunate.

9/08/2005 03:27:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

c4: Now if Porky was in the habit of making his own assertions about Palestinian racial inferiority, inbred savagery, all Arabs are alike, etc. etc. --- all well-footnoted, he might have a point of demanding I rise to his standards and footnote as well.

But he doesn't. It's just a tactic.

I simply point out your lies and distortions, you dont respond because I dont lie and distort?

yep....

9/08/2005 04:55:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

c4: Unfortunately for only a very, very short time without an America willing to break an energy embargo placed on Israel.

actually that was tried and failed in 1973.... any more bullshit arguements?

c4: An America willing to go into Depression to lose 70% of it's energy needs then give 5% of what it has left to a country that bars 98% of Americans from becoming Israelis based on their religion.

yes, more crap... 98% of americans cannot become israelis, news flash 98% of american cant become japanese either so?

nice usage of the word "bars" like 98% of americans have tried and failed to become israelis...

c4: We are in far worse shape than in 1973 or 1979 with regards to having imported oil cut off.

maybe cause americans buy suv's?

c4: Israel has the power of nukes and an adequate number of people to destroy but not hold, other ME nations or their oil supplies.

so?

c4: How would China, Russia, Pakistan, France react to Israel trying to seize the ME Oil reserves or nuking the oil fields?

what a crazy question....

c4: Not even a Congressman with a Zionist-provided Swiss Bank account wants "America and it's Special Friend" situation where we engage in a WMD war to the finish to keep Israel's post-1967 grabbed land safe against the rest of the world" situation.

1. please show any example of a "zionist -provided swiss bank account"

2. 1967 was not a land grab it was a denfensive war (for the 345th time)

c4: Time is short. Parity is coming to the ME. Either we get Final Borders or the oil trillions will buy WMD parity in the ME.

you still dont get it, it aint borders, it's israel right not to be murdered by your friends....

9/08/2005 05:05:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

c4: On blogs, people put out info. It could be good, it could be bad. But this is talk, not footnoted academic papers. Sometimes, a reader may have a question of another blogger, and ask where that came from.

But others try and challenge any point made as if the blogger they disagree with is a paid researcher to them or they are in a teacher-student relation and the request is to document any point made with "proof"....which of course will be not accepted but only lead to further research requests.

It's a tactic. It's meant to distract, to sometimes just groundlessly make charges like "liar" "anti-progressive" "third roader"...and put the opponent on the defensive by taking an inferior position to the accuser - all of a sudden, if you honor the 8-10 demands of Porky or whoever, you are in the role of the defendent - awaiting judgement.

total evasion and bullshit... on a blog as c4 says people can spout crap and can play loose and fast with facts so if i see total lies/distortions he states it's a tactic? nonsense, i post to correct his bullshit, from the "precious shekel" to the "Jewish boot on the throat" c4 loves to use nazi imagery and put it on israel... i doubt i will convince c4 of the error of his ways,but i will go accusation by accusation to show everyone what a pile of crap he is spouting.

9/08/2005 05:10:00 AM  
Blogger T said...

Don't you people read the news? Come on http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L07304692.htm

Nathan you`re right, I misused the term moral relativism. Although the main reason I did so was to simply throw it back at people here who accuse me of it, which shows they don`t really know what it means either.

Here`s the problem Nathan. Killing political enemies is bad, this is your general statement when referring to when Palestinian factions are killing each other. It`s a sign of brutality and violence. But when Israel does the EXACT same thing, all of a sudden such an act is completely justified.

When you have the exact same situation, you must treat both actors the same way. This is the principle of justice. Or to paraphrase Kant, for an act to be moral, you have to extend it so that you`d agree with it even if everyone in the world did it, that includes your enemies.

Basically you have to reject the concept of justice to remain consistent.

An ethical system that rejects the principle of justice at it`s core can hardly be considered an ethical system. Basically your idea of ethics is `whatever I do is right, whatever they do is wrong` which of course is the exact opposite of what ethics is.

9/08/2005 06:29:00 AM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

When you have the exact same situation, you must treat both actors the same way. This is the principle of justice.

difference is, when the palestinians are murdering each other they are not seeking to murder innocent civilians, the palestinians TARGET civilians to murder, whereas the israelis kill (use murder) palestinians trying to MURDER

9/08/2005 07:39:00 AM  
Blogger T said...

Nathan you're committing the same errors. Palestinians are terrorists because you say so, but when Israelis do the same crap, it's perfectly ok.

Innocent civilians are killed by the IDF at a rate of 3 for every innocent Israeli killed. Israel has more power so they can afford to take out political and militant leaders. But usually they're just terrorizing regular people. If a Palestinian were to take out an extremist/terrorist like Netanyahu, it would be the greatest crime in the world to you. Palestinians can only target civilians since that's all they're capable of. It's terrorism. By targetting regular people they're trying to inflict terror in the population to effect change in their situation. Israel targets regular Palestinian civilians, including children, for the purpose of spreading terror among the Palestinian population, to further subjugate and disenfranchise people, and weaken their political resolve. Clearly that's terrorism, carried out with the same mechanism and the same motive as the Palestinians. Yet when Israel does it they're heroes, and when Palestinians do it, they're evil.

The fact you refuse to see these simple facts is because you're not ethical. Ethics requires objectivity and justice, and you have no interest in that, you only have interest in furthering your own claims of American imperialism. I support the Palestinian cause but I'm the first to point out that many of the militant groups are engaged in terrorism. Why would I try to deny that basic fact? Just becuase I support the Palestinian cause, also doesn't mean they support every single aspect of it. Religious people have notions of absolute authority, thus you can't criticize it, it's a shame religion can destroy so many brains.

I have no need to paint over anything I support with pictures of lollipops and puppydogs and deny the reality of it. The american imperialist needs to do this because deep down they know everything they're doing is wrong, so instead of coming right out and saying "I don't give a fuck about morality, human rights, justice, what I want is the expansion of american power", you lie to yourselves. What's worse you have nothing to gain from the expansion of this power, you're just like the ignorant German masses supporting blindly supporting Hitler.

It's all contradiction, nothing said on this blog is logically consistent.

9/08/2005 12:02:00 PM  
Blogger diabeticfriendly said...

c4: Israel is also a nation with deep hooks into America's influential elites. It has managed to procure for it's wealthy citizens and it's peace bribe neighbors half of total US foreign aid. The aid for Israeli citizens alone, cumulatively, exceeds the present value of aid dollars given for the Marshall Plan.

THE MARSHALL PLAN (1947)

On June 5, 1947, Secretary of State George C. Marshall spoke at Harvard University and outlined what would become known as the Marshall Plan. Europe, still devastated by the war, had just survived one of the worst winters on record. The nations of Europe had nothing to sell for hard currency, and the democratic socialist governments in most countries were unwilling to adopt the draconian proposals for recovery advocated by old-line classical economists. Something had to be done, both for humanitarian reasons and also to stop the potential spread of communism westward.

The United States offered up to $20 billion for relief, but only if the European nations could get together and draw up a rational plan on how they would use the aid. For the first time, they would have to act as a single economic unit; they would have to cooperate with each other. Marshall also offered aid to the Soviet Union and its allies in eastern Europe, but Stalin denounced the program as a trick and refused to participate. The Russian rejection probably made passage of the measure through Congress possible.

The Marshall Plan, it should be noted, benefited the American economy as well. The money would be used to buy goods from the United States, and they had to be shipped across the Atlantic on American merchant vessels. But it worked. By 1953 the United States had pumped in $13 billion, and Europe was standing on its feet again. Moreover, the Plan included West Germany, which was thus reintegrated into the European community. (The aid was all economic; it did not include military aid until after the Korean War.)

Aside from helping to put Europe back on its feet, the Marshall Plan led to the Schuman Plan, which in turn led to Euratom, then the Coal and Iron Community and the Common Market, and pointed to what may yet evolve into an economically and politically united Europe. In many ways, the Marshall Plan satisfied both those who wanted our foreign policy to be generous and idealistic and those who demanded realpolitik; it helped feed the starving and shelter the homeless, and at the same time stopped the spread of communism and put the European economy back on its feet.

For further reading: John Gimbel, The Origins of the Marshall Plan (1976); Imanuel Wexler, The Marshall Plan Revisited (1983); Michael Hogan, The Marshall Plan (1987).


so what is your point? yes america is benefiting from investing from israel, america is creating american jobs and raising the level of the lake for both the usa and israel, aint that a shame, that when america invests in the people of israel, america gets rewarded?

9/10/2005 01:24:00 PM  

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